Post by: Anonymous on September 01, 2005, 10:07:00 PM
Post by: webcrawler on September 01, 2005, 10:43:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-01 19:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I am so sad by the lack of aid from our government. They want to stop looting... Feed them!!! Our government doesn't care about the poor and the blacks and the old. If this were a wealthy area there would have been better action quicker."
I'm watching Prime Time live right now and they showed Bush saying he has a zero tolerance policy for looting even when Diane Sawyer said a woman was stealing shoes because her feet were cut up. I can't wait until he's out of office! I won't be surprised if Jeb will have a spin at president sometime down the road either. I'm sickened.
I get paid tomorrow and have been online for hours trying to figure out the best organization to give money to that will directly help people. I looked on the Red Cross site and there is a way to donate to the hurricane relief fund, but the money can also be used for other emergencies. I want 100% of my money going to the people on the gulf. So far the Salvation Army is looking like the best place.
Anyone have any first hand knowledge with a trustworthy organization that will give 100% of the donations to the people that need it?
Post by: Nonconformistlaw on September 01, 2005, 11:07:00 PM
I cant believe Bush did not make a distinction between the criminal looters, who are clearly taking advantage of the situation and SHOULD be condemned, and those who are merely desperate and are just trying to survive and RIGHTLY so....there is a BIG difference!
Anyway...I'm trying to think of what to do to help...I can't stand sitting here in my comfy home and feeling helpless.....I thought of driving there myself to give people that are walking a ride out of there but since I have a small car and wouldnt know where to find those walking along the roads....I'm going to donate money to the Red Cross instead....I worry about whether the money will go to this disaster or to a different one...but you know what...when it comes to the Red Cross...there is no other charitable organization I trust more....so Red Cross it is...
Its so hard to watch so many people suffer at the hands of mother nature, at the hands of our inept govt., and at the hands of the rampant criminals taking advantage of the chaos... :sad:
Post by: webcrawler on September 01, 2005, 11:23:00 PM
Post by: Nonconformistlaw on September 01, 2005, 11:31:00 PM
That was my question to Mr BUSH after those remarks too...WHAT HELP?????
Post by: Anonymous on September 01, 2005, 11:53:00 PM
Post by: webcrawler on September 02, 2005, 12:00:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-09-01 20:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Salvation army. Not the red cross. Trust me on this one, red cross is much more corrupt, using the money for all kinds of things unrelated to the disaster you give to. Salvation army was the first on the scene handing out food and water, and don't spend the money on huge salaries and remodeling their offices. :tup: "
Yeah I felt queasy when I thought about the Red Cross and how the director was said to me making something like $386,000 a year (don't remember exact # but it was over $300,000).
My family ran into some problems when living down in Mobile and the SA were very helpful down there in Alabama.
Post by: Nonconformistlaw on September 02, 2005, 12:05:00 AM
Here's just a question...the Red Cross is corrupt?? I guess my image of it was one charity that always responds to disasters quickly...Is my perception wrong?
Post by: Nonconformistlaw on September 02, 2005, 12:08:00 AM
Post by: webcrawler on September 02, 2005, 01:02:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-09-01 21:05:00, Nonconformistlaw wrote:
"Hmmmm, you have a point, especially about overhead costs, etc...so here's a question..Is the Salvation Army strictly volunteers? I guess I'm thinking that every charity is going to have some unavoidable costs....sometimes excessive and unnecessary I'm sure...so how do I know which charity has the least amount of overhead...therefore giving me some assurance more of my money actually goes to victims?
Here's just a question...the Red Cross is corrupt?? I guess my image of it was one charity that always responds to disasters quickly...Is my perception wrong?"
When you make a donation somewhere you can specify how you want your money to be spent. The organization is supposed to honor that. However, when I looked at the Red Cross site they had other stuff tagged onto the huricane fund.
Many nonprofits will list their expenditures on their websites but it's still hard to figure out how much they are paying for staff unless you get a hold of their tax statement. Guidestar might have some of that info as well.
I have heard from a friend in their church that the captains of each SA chapter are not paid. They live in a meager home and have a meager car and the church provides for basic living necessities. If they are transfered to another chapter they leave everything behind.
Post by: Anonymous on September 02, 2005, 01:27:00 AM
Oh yeah, what the fuck is up with gas prices? Is that not just a big fat lie to make the oil companies a profit? Is there not vast amounts of oil and gas in storage, so any possible "shortage" because a few oil wells off the coast were shut down for a few days is a big fat lie? Anyone know? I haven't looked into this yet.
Post by: Dr Fucktard on September 02, 2005, 01:30:00 AM
Quote
how do I know which charity has the least amount of overhead...therefore giving me some assurance more of my money actually goes to victims?
Truth is, you don't know! So why not donate to an organization like SIBS? At least you know that if the $$ doesn't go the hurricane victims it will support the noble cause of helping people to GET STRAIGHT. :tup:
_________________
http://fornits.com/SIBS (http://fornits.com/SIBS)
Post by: Anonymous on September 02, 2005, 01:36:00 AM
Post by: Dr. Miller Newton on September 02, 2005, 01:39:00 AM
Post by: webcrawler on September 02, 2005, 01:41:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-09-01 22:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Yah, FUCK BUSH and his whole Dynasty. I hope people wake up, how can we spend hundreds of billions on the War in Iraq, when people in this country are walking, starving, and dying of thirst. END THE WAR NOW. Send the troops home. Put our money and resources to helping people instead of blowing them up.
Oh yeah, what the fuck is up with gas prices? Is that not just a big fat lie to make the oil companies a profit? Is there not vast amounts of oil and gas in storage, so any possible "shortage" because a few oil wells off the coast were shut down for a few days is a big fat lie? Anyone know? I haven't looked into this yet."
The sad irony in all of this is that yes we will have plenty of oil as long as our govt keeps endorsing the war in Iraq. Meaning the more people they wipe out the greater abilty we will have to use their oil.
Post by: starry-eyed pirate on September 02, 2005, 01:46:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-09-01 22:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Yah, FUCK BUSH and his whole Dynasty.... END THE WAR NOW.... Put our money and resources to helping people instead of blowing them up.
."
Got that right. Peace on Earth. ::dove::
Post by: Second Skin on September 02, 2005, 11:40:00 AM
Dear Mr. Bush:
Any idea where all our helicopters are? It's Day 5 of Hurricane Katrina and thousands remain stranded in New Orleans and need to be airlifted. Where on earth could you have misplaced all our military choppers? Do you need help finding them? I once lost my car in a Sears parking lot. Man, was that a drag.
Also, any idea where all our national guard soldiers are? We could really use them right now for the type of thing they signed up to do like helping with national disasters. How come they weren't there to begin with?
Last Thursday I was in south Florida and sat outside while the eye of Hurricane Katrina passed over my head. It was only a Category 1 then but it was pretty nasty. Eleven people died and, as of today, there were still homes without power. That night the weatherman said this storm was on its way to New Orleans. That was Thursday! Did anybody tell you? I know you didn't want to interrupt your vacation and I know how you don't like to get bad news. Plus, you had fundraisers to go to and mothers of dead soldiers to ignore and smear. You sure showed her!
I especially like how, the day after the hurricane, instead of flying to Louisiana, you flew to San Diego to party with your business peeps. Don't let people criticize you for this -- after all, the hurricane was over and what the heck could you do, put your finger in the dike?
And don't listen to those who, in the coming days, will reveal how you specifically reduced the Army Corps of Engineers' budget for New Orleans this summer for the third year in a row. You just tell them that even if you hadn't cut the money to fix those levees, there weren't going to be any Army engineers to fix them anyway because you had a much more important construction job for them -- BUILDING DEMOCRACY IN IRAQ!
On Day 3, when you finally left your vacation home, I have to say I was moved by how you had your Air Force One pilot descend from the clouds as you flew over New Orleans so you could catch a quick look of the disaster. Hey, I know you couldn't stop and grab a bullhorn and stand on some rubble and act like a commander in chief. Been there done that.
There will be those who will try to politicize this tragedy and try to use it against you. Just have your people keep pointing that out. Respond to nothing. Even those pesky scientists who predicted this would happen because the water in the Gulf of Mexico is getting hotter and hotter making a storm like this inevitable. Ignore them and all their global warming Chicken Littles. There is nothing unusual about a hurricane that was so wide it would be like having one F-4 tornado that stretched from New York to Cleveland.
No, Mr. Bush, you just stay the course. It's not your fault that 30 percent of New Orleans lives in poverty or that tens of thousands had no transportation to get out of town. C'mon, they're black! I mean, it's not like this happened to Kennebunkport. Can you imagine leaving white people on their roofs for five days? Don't make me laugh! Race has nothing -- NOTHING -- to do with this!
You hang in there, Mr. Bush. Just try to find a few of our Army helicopters and send them there. Pretend the people of New Orleans and the Gulf Coast are near Tikrit.
Yours,
Michael Moore
http://www.MichaelMoore.com (http://www.MichaelMoore.com)
P.S. That annoying mother, Cindy Sheehan, is no longer at your ranch. She and dozens of other relatives of the Iraqi War dead are now driving across the country, stopping in many cities along the way. Maybe you can catch up with them before they get to DC on September 21st.
Post by: sammiegirl on September 02, 2005, 11:45:00 AM
This is a quagmire.
BUSH FUCKED UP BIG TIME and WHERES JEB IN ALL OF THIS.
If Jeb thinks he'll run next term Ill be there reminding people of his lack of action. SHIT FL IS SO CLOSE. I went on moveon.org and volunteered my house as well as a job but my house is small so Ive been asking neighbors to host families.
I know I am in Philly I'd be willing to go get them.
I think this is a good time for all of us to shine through.
SURVIVORS HELPING SURVIVORS.
WE ALL HAD OUR CAT 5 AND WE KNOW PAIN LOSS AND SUFFERING. WE KNOW SHOCK AND TRAUMA. WE KNOW HUNGER HOMELESSNESS WE KNOW. AND NOW WE CAN DO SOMETHING WITH IT
Who better to help.
as SURVIVORS OF STRAIGHT WE HAVE STRENGTH BEYOND ANY REASONABLE EXPECTATION.
Times like these remind me how very much I love you all and pray and hope that you are safe and warm/cool and fed and surrounded by people who love you.
Does anyone know if exstraightlings are down there? If so tell them they can come to my house.
Peace and love to you all
Post by: starry-eyed pirate on September 02, 2005, 01:25:00 PM
Man, i am gettin' pissed off.
Post by: Anonymous on September 02, 2005, 02:16:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-01 19:43:00, webcrawler wrote:
Anyone have any first hand knowledge with a trustworthy organization that will give 100% of the donations to the people that need it?"
Second Harvest Donation Page:
http://www.secondharvest.org/site_content.asp?s=95 (http://www.secondharvest.org/site_content.asp?s=95)
Unlike the Red Cross, Second Harvest is not a blood pyramid scheme run
by Dracula and his night minions.
Post by: Nonconformistlaw on September 02, 2005, 02:19:00 PM
I'm sure some of these people are happy to see Bush and I can't bring myself to criticize the hurricane victims who want to embrace our lying scum of a president....BUT
Its SO OBVIOUS that this is a calculated move to dodge the criticism, and give the appearance of supposedly doing something, and probably as damage control for yesterdays insensitive, condescending, and ignorant remarks from BUSH
Oh I just loved today's remark from Bush to the effect...'I am pleased about the response to the disaster but the results of the relief effort are unacceptable.' :roll: Ummmm EXCUSE ME, :roll: mr president, but the 'unacceptable results of the relief effort' are a DIRECT RESULT of the INEXCUSABLE RESPONSE to the disaster....APPARANTLY BUSH THINKS AMERICANS ARE TOO STUPID TO SEE THROUGH HIS BULLSHIT EXCUSES.....Sorry Mr. Bush, as it has been said numerous times over the past few days....disasters bring our the best and worst in human nature...you see what people are really made of....
Mr Bush you are no different....among other things, this disaster is making it so transparently obvious how FULL OF SHIT YOU ARE that even your fellow GOP cronies are starting to criticize you....GET A CLUE MR PRESIDENT!!!!!!!
Post by: Anonymous on September 02, 2005, 02:27:00 PM
(Apologies to any female genitalia that were offended by comparison to the President---it's just a common colloqiallism)
Post by: webcrawler on September 02, 2005, 02:37:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-02 11:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-09-01 19:43:00, webcrawler wrote:
Anyone have any first hand knowledge with a trustworthy organization that will give 100% of the donations to the people that need it?"
Second Harvest Donation Page:
http://www.secondharvest.org/site_content.asp?s=95 (http://www.secondharvest.org/site_content.asp?s=95)
Unlike the Red Cross, Second Harvest is not a blood pyramid scheme run
by Dracula and his night minions.
"
Thanks for the info. Second Harvest is a great organization as well. They indirectly provide help for the organization I work for.
Post by: starry-eyed pirate on September 02, 2005, 04:31:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-02 10:25:00, starry-eyed pirate wrote:
"Bush is a lyin', fascist, conceited, racist, deluded, bitch. And he aint the only one. The federal government is full of oppressive slavemasters. i aint to impressed with governor Barbour of Mississippi either. FUCK YOU Bush!!!! Quit your fuckin' talkin' and do somethin' ya fuckin' bitch ass cocksuckin' muther fuckin moron.
Man, i am gettin' pissed off."
As insensitve and discompassionate and megalo-maniacal as Bush is there is actually plenty of blame to go around. The mayor of N'Orle'n and the Governor of L'usianna waited to long to ask the feds for help in the first place. Legally the federal government has to be invited in by the state. The leadership of the people has tragically failed them at every level; local, state and federal. i stand by my earlier statement which is quoted above, but this is not all on Bush. Nagin and Blanco are to blame as well. God help us all.
Post by: Nonconformistlaw on September 02, 2005, 04:48:00 PM
But you know what...we'll never really know who is most at fault...politicians spend too much time pointing fingers at each other....none have a clue what taking responsibility means...all politicians are interested on one thing...saving face....making sure they look good and they other guy looks bad...
I actually have a different view of the NO Mayor...at least he had the brains to order an evacuation before the storm hit...correct me if I am wrong, but didn't he do that 2 days before Katrina made landfall in NO? Can you imagine how bad it would be he hadn't? But as a general statement, I agee that govt at all levels routinely fails citizens...and NO is an extreme example of govt failures....
Post by: Anonymous on September 02, 2005, 05:35:00 PM
I am sick with grief over the completely disgraceful Federal response to the tragedy in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. That we have billions of dollars to spend on blowing people up in Iraq, and yet people are dying of starvation and thirst after the hurricane is completely and utterly unacceptable. I am disgusted by the rhetoric of "zero tolerance" for looters. Stolen goods are not the primary concern right now. There is no more important issue facing this country than whether or not we can stand together and take care of each other.
My message to you is unequivocal: bring the troops home from Iraq, and send all possible aid to New Orleans.
Sincerely,
xxxxx
Post by: Anonymous on September 02, 2005, 06:29:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on September 02, 2005, 08:18:00 PM
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/storm/cont ... _0901.html (http://www.palmbeachpost.com/storm/content/nation/epaper/2005/09/01/a15a_katboat_0901.html)
Post by: Anonymous on September 02, 2005, 08:18:00 PM
http://www.startribune.com/stories/125/5593781.html (http://www.startribune.com/stories/125/5593781.html)
Post by: Anonymous on September 02, 2005, 09:18:00 PM
:flame:
Post by: OverLordd on September 02, 2005, 10:08:00 PM
Huey P. Long, a old govenor and his welfare state. The people currently in Louisiana stayed of their own free will. They thought the government would take care of them. They took no responsiblity for their own actions. All this behavior was perpiratated by Huey P. Long and his idea of "The government will take care of you." They need to take responisblity for not being prepared and not leaving during the manditory evacuation. I may seem heartless, but take it from a person who lived in New Orleans for a large part of his life, they could be doing better if they took care of their own actions.
Post by: Anonymous on September 02, 2005, 10:12:00 PM
why anyone cared that Monica sucked Bill's dick i have no idea, but now it seems REALLY STUPID to care whose pants were down in comparison to Bush's everlasting disregard for human life. perhaps somebody should volunteer to suck his cock so people will want to impeach him, too.
Post by: Anonymous on September 02, 2005, 10:14:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-02 19:08:00, OverLordd wrote:
"Guys, not to sound uncaring but how many of you know about the way New Orleans is, and even the entire state of Louisiana. I grew up in New Orleans Louisiana. I was taught how to survive in a hurricane and how to prepare. These people did not prepare as well as they should of.
Huey P. Long, a old govenor and his welfare state. The people currently in Louisiana stayed of their own free will. They thought the government would take care of them. They took no responsiblity for their own actions. All this behavior was perpiratated by Huey P. Long and his idea of "The government will take care of you." They need to take responisblity for not being prepared and not leaving during the manditory evacuation. I may seem heartless, but take it from a person who lived in New Orleans for a large part of his life, they could be doing better if they took care of their own actions."
mmm hmmn. shut up white boy, you are clueless. :roll:
how's ya gonna evac when ya don't have a car, when ya don't got nowhere to go and no money to get there.
Post by: Anonymous on September 02, 2005, 10:18:00 PM
Post by: webcrawler on September 02, 2005, 10:30:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-02 19:08:00, OverLordd wrote:
"Guys, not to sound uncaring but how many of you know about the way New Orleans is, and even the entire state of Louisiana. I grew up in New Orleans Louisiana. I was taught how to survive in a hurricane and how to prepare. These people did not prepare as well as they should of.
Huey P. Long, a old govenor and his welfare state. The people currently in Louisiana stayed of their own free will. They thought the government would take care of them. They took no responsiblity for their own actions. All this behavior was perpiratated by Huey P. Long and his idea of "The government will take care of you." They need to take responisblity for not being prepared and not leaving during the manditory evacuation. I may seem heartless, but take it from a person who lived in New Orleans for a large part of his life, they could be doing better if they took care of their own actions."
Damn Overlordd this is a pretty harsh stance don't you think? The people left behind are most likely the one's that did not have the resources to go anywhere. Your viewing this with a perspective based on your life, not theirs.
So the next time someone gets raped or beaten should we condem them too for looking to our govt to help them? Should we condemn the people who are steadily losing their jobs to 3rd world countries who look to the govt for unemployment benefits? Should we condemn the desperate people down south that are hungry, thirsty, and sick for accepting supplies from our govt? Should we condemn them for getting on buses to get out of the area? After all as you put it "they could be doing better if they took care of their own actions."
Post by: Anonymous on September 02, 2005, 10:40:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-02 19:08:00, OverLordd wrote:
"Guys, not to sound uncaring but how many of you know about the way New Orleans is, and even the entire state of Louisiana. I grew up in New Orleans Louisiana. I was taught how to survive in a hurricane and how to prepare. These people did not prepare as well as they should of.
Huey P. Long, a old govenor and his welfare state. The people currently in Louisiana stayed of their own free will. They thought the government would take care of them. They took no responsiblity for their own actions. All this behavior was perpiratated by Huey P. Long and his idea of "The government will take care of you." They need to take responisblity for not being prepared and not leaving during the manditory evacuation. I may seem heartless, but take it from a person who lived in New Orleans for a large part of his life, they could be doing better if they took care of their own actions."
Overlod, shut up.
You are completely wrong. A lot of people DID want to leave, but were unable to for whatever reason. (economic, medical, etc) The fact you cannot even IMAGINE the fact people can not leave at their own will shows how stupid and ignorant you are. I spent years in New Orleans at Tulane University, I am not talking out of my ass. But you hadn't need to spend time there to realize they are HUMAN BEINGS dying there RIGHT NOW!! Elderly and babies are dying in the street, RIGHT NOW! And you are blaming them? My god, you are a cruel individual. Sick, twisted and heartless. Funny how its always you 'religious' folks who have no problem watching people die.
This tragedy sure is exposing people's true colors I'd say. The amount of racists GARGABE I've been hearing/reading from some people is unbelievable. UNBELIEVABLE. I've read some of the cruelest, assanine columns today, and they sounded a lot like Overlords post. Pathetic.
Obviously you have NO fucking clue what it's like to live under the radar, and not the same economic ability as those around you. Man... I could go on forever, but you fucking disgust me. Not sure why you come on here worrying about teens who are locked up and can't have sympathy for people dying on the streets in their own feces. Unbelivable man.
Post by: Anonymous on September 02, 2005, 10:50:00 PM
Quote
but how many of you know about the way New Orleans is
what the hell is this supposed to mean? I know exactly how new orleans is. It's a great city, creative and dynamic with wonderful and colorful people. what exactly did you mean by that?
Quote
These people
what people exactly? the poor, elderly, inferm, tourists, hotel workers, city cops, firefighters... those people?
Your racism shows through your choice of words. You sound almost happy all those 'welfare blacks' are getting what was coming to them for not being as prepared as you.
The sad thing is, you aren't the only one who thinks this way. Plenty of racist white southern baptists types out there unforunately. :roll:
Post by: Anonymous on September 02, 2005, 10:51:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on September 02, 2005, 10:56:00 PM
Some of you who post here need to go down there and volunteer your bodies for food, because although you are worth less than allowing yourselves to be eaten for their survival ...at least you will finally be doing something with your pile of shit lives.
- Katrina.
Post by: Anonymous on September 02, 2005, 10:58:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on September 02, 2005, 11:01:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on September 02, 2005, 11:03:00 PM
--Marie Antoinette
Post by: Anonymous on September 02, 2005, 11:14:00 PM
Post by: webcrawler on September 02, 2005, 11:21:00 PM
I first posted comments on another thread anon because I was intimidated to share my real thoughts here. One only has to come to this board on any given day and read countless attacks on a persons race, gender, or some perceived defect of character.
Overlordd I'm not going to belittle you for your comments. I've been caught up in that cycle before around here and frankly it did nothing but make me feel even worse in the end. I know you are 17 years old so I really can't fault you. My guess is that you are just viewing the situation from your own life and may not have knowledge what it's like to live in a cycle of poverty and oppression.
I'm really sick of people always blaming the oppressed for everything and how they should just pull themselves up by their boot straps. So all the people spouting racial slurs, endorsing the killing of people, and blaming them tell me this,
Were your great, great grandparents slaves?
Did your great grandparents, grand parents, and parents grow up in a time
where they could not enjoy equal rights because of Jim Crow Laws?
Did your grandparents get sent to an all white school and have their lives threatned?
Were any of your relatives lynched for wanting their right to vote?
Did your grandparents receive substandard education under the guise of seperate but equal?
Did your poor and uneducated grandparents go on to have your parents that continued to have substandard education and therefore no hope of a good job and college education?
Were your grandparents and your parents neighborhoods bulldozed all in the name of urban renewal and herded to the projects?
Do you today live in a neighborhood where the police view you as a suspect for anything that goes wrong?
Are you pulled over in your car nonstop and searched for drugs and weapons?
Has your neighbors called the police on you for having lots of visitors because that must mean you are selling drugs instead of just maybe having a large extended family and network of friends?
Are you today being shortchanged with your education and prospects of college because of the neighborhood your school happens to be in?
I am not trying to take away from anyone elses experiences of suffering here. I know history shows us that oppression and tragedy has played a role in the lives of many regardless of race. I am just sick and tired of hearing the cruel things that have been said about the victims of this hurricane.
Post by: webcrawler on September 02, 2005, 11:27:00 PM
Post by: Nonconformistlaw on September 02, 2005, 11:51:00 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,167211,00.html (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,167211,00.html)
Katrina Rumbles Closer to Gulf Coast
Saturday August 27, 2005
?Coastal residents jammed freeways and gas stations Saturday as they rushed to get out of the way of Hurricane Katrina?.Owners of gas stations in and around New Orleans were forced to direct traffic as lines to the pumps stretched down surrounding streets. Gas stations were running low on gas by mid-afternoon Saturday?Louisiana and Mississippi made all lanes northbound on interstate highways. Mississippi declared a state of emergency and Alabama offered assistance to its neighbors.?
(I bet severe traffic jams and possible gas shortages may have prevented last minute departures)
?Making matters worse, at least 100,000 people in the city lack the transportation to get out of town. Nagin said the Superdome might be used as a shelter of last resort for people who have no cars, with city bus pick-up points around New Orleans?.. know they're saying `Get out of town,' but I don't have any way to get out," said Hattie Johns, 74. "If you don't have no money, you can't go."
(hmmm. I think other posters sufficiently explained this one)
?Some motels as far inland as Jackson, Miss., 150 miles north of New Orleans, were already booked up.?
(some may have feared finding no place to go even if they left)
?Some tourists heeded the warnings and moved up their departures, and lines of tourists waited for cabs on New Orleans' famed Bourbon Street?The problem is getting a taxi to the airport. There aren't any," said Brian Katz, a salesman from New York?.Others tried leaving but couldn't get a flight??We tried to move it up, but they told us they were all booked up," said Terry Evans of Cleveland, whose flight was supposed to leave Monday morning. "We may end up sleeping at the airport."
(some tourists probably wanted to leave, tried, and couldn?t find a way out fast enough)
OTHER DAMN GOOD REASONS I HAVE HEARD WATCHING NEWS REPORTS
Fear of looters, stayed to defend their homes and belongings.
Being Elderly?notice how many elderly were rescued in wheelchairs? Many are just to frail or ill to just up and leave at a moments notice.
Post by: webcrawler on September 03, 2005, 12:03:00 AM
Post by: OverLordd on September 03, 2005, 12:16:00 AM
Quote
I am sadded that it has taken a hurricane to open up America's eyes on just how prevalant racism and classism are in this country. It's not just limited to Southern Baptists that have hate in them as one person made reference to.
I first posted comments on another thread anon because I was intimidated to share my real thoughts here. One only has to come to this board on any given day and read countless attacks on a persons race, gender, or some perceived defect of character.
Overlordd I'm not going to belittle you for your comments. I've been caught up in that cycle before around here and frankly it did nothing but make me feel even worse in the end. I know you are 17 years old so I really can't fault you. My guess is that you are just viewing the situation from your own life and may not have knowledge what it's like to live in a cycle of poverty and oppression.
I'm really sick of people always blaming the oppressed for everything and how they should just pull themselves up by their boot straps. So all the people spouting racial slurs, endorsing the killing of people, and blaming them tell me this,
Were your great, great grandparents slaves?
Did your great grandparents, grand parents, and parents grow up in a time
where they could not enjoy equal rights because of Jim Crow Laws?
Did your grandparents get sent to an all white school and have their lives threatned?
Were any of your relatives lynched for wanting their right to vote?
Did your grandparents receive substandard education under the guise of seperate but equal?
Did your poor and uneducated grandparents go on to have your parents that continued to have substandard education and therefore no hope of a good job and college education?
Were your grandparents and your parents neighborhoods bulldozed all in the name of urban renewal and herded to the projects?
Do you today live in a neighborhood where the police view you as a suspect for anything that goes wrong?
Are you pulled over in your car nonstop and searched for drugs and weapons?
Has your neighbors called the police on you for having lots of visitors because that must mean you are selling drugs instead of just maybe having a large extended family and network of friends?
Are you today being shortchanged with your education and prospects of college because of the neighborhood your school happens to be in?
I am not trying to take away from anyone elses experiences of suffering here. I know history shows us that oppression and tragedy has played a role in the lives of many regardless of race. I am just sick and tired of hearing the cruel things that have been said about the victims of this hurricane.
Why in the world are you comparing the racism of the 1960's to a hurricane right now? that makes no sence what so every. Your just fliping over and pointing at the race card to get you through.
People throughout history have shown that you can work hard and make something of your selfs in this country. Whineing and hiding get you nothing. I hold up as a example the industrial revolution and the influx of immagrents who worked hard and grew. They faced massive rasicsm, not only from people already in the country but from other groups that moved over with them. Did they whine? No they worked hard and made something of them selfs. While this may sound hollow coming from a person who has only had to work hard at a few things, but thats what happened in history.
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HOW DARE YOU critizise their choices!!
Bam, right there, how dare I critizise their choices? Their choices to stay, their choices to depend on the state? Their choices to be unprepared? I critizie their choices because their choices, mixed with other circumstances got them killed.
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It's a pity you can't break the cycle of ignorance in your family Overlord, and start thinking for yourself.
This is me thinking for my self my friend. And its foolish of you to think otherwise.
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I know exactly how new orleans is. It's a great city, creative and dynamic with wonderful and colorful people. what exactly did you mean by that?
I ment it as a comment on the poor infasturcture and the welfare state.
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what people exactly? the poor, elderly, inferm, tourists, hotel workers, city cops, firefighters... those people?
The people that were not prepared. The people that did not leave. and dont give me that they did not have cars. New Orleans has a very good public transport system and they could of hopped a bus.
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Your racism shows through your choice of words. You sound almost happy all those 'welfare blacks' are getting what was coming to them for not being as prepared as you.
The sad thing is, you aren't the only one who thinks this way. Plenty of racist white southern baptists types out there unforunately.
Your putting words into my mouth. My grandparents currently live down in New Orleans, and they are fine. They left when they were told to.
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RIGHT NOW! And you are blaming them?
You misunderstand my first post. I blame the government, like all of you, but I blame the government for caring to much, and taking away the responsiblity of life. Some of the blame falls on the unprepared, and falls on the welfare state of louisiana.
You guys are all died in the wool democrats. Its rather impressive the way you seem to think I don't care just because I am spreading the blame on all involved. For those of you that say "Whats next? Blaming rape victims?" I say to you the horror of Katrina could of been avoided if only people had been prepared. Every one needed to be prepared, from the govenor, to the cops, to the people on the ground, yet someone, somewhere droped the ball. The people could of picked that ball up if they had been prepared. Saying its all the governments fault is foolish. Its not the governments job to take care of you.
I care about the people suffering sure as sure, but im not going to say is some one elses fault. Sure I will help them get back on their feet because I can't stand to see something wrong, yet I will not WILL NOT say that its all the governments fault.
Post by: webcrawler on September 03, 2005, 12:26:00 AM
As far as me comparing racism of the 60s to the huricane? I'm simply showing how racism continues to rear it's ugly head even today and how the treatment of people today is an after effect of our history.
My family were poor immigrants too but they and their descendants had one advantage and that was the color of their skin.
You say "you worked hard". Ever stop to think a lot of things may have come easier for you because of your skin color, being middle class,going to better schools, having health care, not living in substandard housing, being able to get a job by white employers who were thankful they didn't have to hire some "incompetent affirmative action person of color" because they want to be surrounded by people that look and think just like they do?
Post by: Nonconformistlaw on September 03, 2005, 01:07:00 AM
NO...died in the wool humanitarian, raised in an extremely republican city and family, who was always taught to earn everything myself....but that's not even the point.....
what is being said here has nothing to do with whether you are a democrat, republican whatever....you miss the point completely...its about human suffering, the likes this country has not seen happen in THIS country...its about compassion, helping people who are dying because MOTHER NATURE wrought havoc
Life is not nearly as simple as you make it out to be....there are so many reasons that are perfectly valid why people stay in poverty...but you know what, I'm not going to bother to explain it to you...your a typical teenager convinced you know it all...and you remind me of all the heartless, narrow-minded, spoiled, sheltered people I spent the past three years in law school with...who just because they lived a priviledged life...think they are entitled to criticize those who weren't handed everything on silver platter...and freely criticize people for things they have no personal experience and therefore have no right criticizing...man you sound just like those monsters....
Quite frankly, I find it rather ironic that many people I have known, and been friends with, who were in poverty or otherwise at the lower socio-ecomomic end of society...are among the kindest and most decent, hard working people I have ever known...
and if the tables were turned and you were in the middle of a disaster...they would be helping you...no questions asked....
Post by: Anonymous on September 03, 2005, 01:18:00 AM
Post by: Nonconformistlaw on September 03, 2005, 01:30:00 AM
I saw more shots of disabled elderly people struggling through high waters that I ever wanted to...it breaks my heart how helpless they must have felt....with no possible, realistic way to flee before the storm hit.
I guess all the people without cars should have hitchhiked, nevermind how dangerous that can be...can you imagine a mother with a few kids on the side of the road, struggling to carry items such as diapers and basic necessities, hitchhiking to get out of N.O.?? :roll:
----that reminds me---in my experience with pubic transportation, it usually follows predetermined routes within a city....you can't just tell the bus driver...man I need to get out of N.O. can you get on the freeway and take us as far from N.O. as possible, there's a hurricane coming(yeah right, that would never happen in a miilion years) :roll:
Post by: webcrawler on September 03, 2005, 01:42:00 AM
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =32&Sort=D (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=11509&forum=32&Sort=D)
Yeah, that public transporation thing is a killer NCL. I wonder where they were supposed to go once they got on the buses. Apparently they had nowhere to go or they would have left.
Those damn elderly people in walkers now why in the hell didn't they have a backpack full of groceries strapped to their backs???? I work with lots of seniors and they are barely eating.This is a problem all around our country too. Yet somehow they should have enough sense to pack enough food. Does it get any worse than this????
Post by: Anonymous on September 03, 2005, 01:46:00 AM
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You guys are all died in the wool democrats."
I cannot believe you turn this into some kind of political argument. You are truly ignorant Overlordd. It sounds like you spout rush limbaugh verbatem, so yes, I doubt you think for yourself. Your comments are so childish, selfish and ignorant, I am literally speechless. You have completely discredited yourself in every subject discussed on this forum. I have a question: for someone who knows very little, why do you talk to people like you know everything? I never thought I'd find something in common with the struggling trolls, but I see why they dislike your presence so much- you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Egg is all over your face.
Post by: Nonconformistlaw on September 03, 2005, 01:48:00 AM
That's right....I forgot....I suppose that all these people are responsible for their plight because they chose not to be a boy/girl scout... :roll:
I suppose they should have been resourceful enough to feed themselves without government aid by hunting, killing and cooking the crocodiles and snakes swimming in the contaminated waters. I also suppose that they never should have expected the government to provide clean drinking water, because surely they prepared for such an emergency by having water purification supplies on hand. :roll: [ This Message was edited by: nonconformistlaw on 2005-09-03 00:00 ]
Post by: Nonconformistlaw on September 03, 2005, 02:06:00 AM
....I doubt they ever imagined that they would be away from home more than a couple days much less a week or permanently....
I'll have to check out that thread discussion tomorrow Webcrawler...If I look now I'll be up all night seething in anger...
Post by: OverLordd on September 03, 2005, 09:27:00 AM
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Oh my god there blaming them for not bringing enough groceries???? I cannot believe the utter lack of commen sense all the critics show by making statements like that...
You seem to be alittle misinformed. Your supose to do that. You are support to get food and your supost to stockpile water. Yes, I say they screwed up for not getting the proper supplies.
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WTF???? Were these people supposed to be fortune tellers who KNEW THE FUTURE or something?Its a level 5 hurriance!!! hello!!! they knew it was coming for a week!!!
....I doubt they ever imagined that they would be away from home more than a couple days much less a week or permanently....
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I see it as blatant racism that the people down there were left to suffer for so long.
The Federal Government is known for its inefficency. Why in the world would we expect the federal government to be effiecnt now? Not only that but we are taking about the city of New Orleans. Its very difficult to get into the city while its flooded because of the topgraphy.
Post by: Antigen on September 03, 2005, 10:26:00 AM
Interesting comment from some FEMA/Homeland paranoia guy interviewed by Ted Kopel the other night. Ted asked the guy how he could possibly have not known about the swelling crowds of refugees at the convention center when the media had been reporting on it, even showing pictures, for days already.
The bureaucrat, incredibly, responded to the effect that, yes, they had heard, read and seen those reports, however they didn't have an authorized, approved report of it till that day. Un fucking believable! We still have just about the best, most efficient and thorough press corps on the planet, at least, when they deem to turn their attention to an issue. And natrual disasters have always been among their best areas of accomplishment. The information was, very obviously, reliable.
And this dweeb has the fucking audacity to pretend it's not his fault those people went w/o food or water for days because, after all, he hadn't received an official order to feed them? Mother fucker! That didn't fly at Nuremberg and I don't find it particularly compelling either.
If God has spoken, why is the world not convinced?
--Percy Bysshe Shelley, English poet
Post by: Anonymous on September 03, 2005, 10:34:00 AM
Post by: Nonconformistlaw on September 03, 2005, 11:10:00 AM
To which overloard responded--------------"Its a level 5 hurriance!!! hello!!! they knew it was coming for a week!!!"------------
_______________________________________________________________________________________
You obviously didnt get what I was saying :roll: ...yes they knew the hurricane was coming.....I was talking about how long they would be away from their homes due to the severity of the damage...since most people have never been through a level 5 hurricane they probably could never have guessed the severity of the current situation, nor predict the LENGTH OF TIME they would be away from home due to that severity.....when packing up things to go to the Superdome they probably did bring some necessities, including food....but I doubt they brought more than a day or two's worth of supplies.....thinking they would be back home in a day or two.......
oh and one other thing.....
um...when's the last time you went grocery shopping overlord?
Your comments about stockpiling are ludicrous because you clearly dont know how much it would cost to stockpile supplies----those people who were stranded in N.O. because they had LITTLE OR NO money, could never had bought the amount of supplies your talking about because they had LITTLE OR NO MONEY....with little cash how is stockpiling even possible....??????
Post by: Troll Control on September 03, 2005, 11:12:00 AM
Post by: Nonconformistlaw on September 03, 2005, 11:26:00 AM
The bureaucrat, incredibly, responded to the effect that, yes, they had heard, read and seen those reports, however they didn't have an authorized, approved report of it till that day. Un fucking believable!"------------------
I watched that interview and this FEMA guy is a piece of work...the stupidity of so-called educated people blows my mind...that's part of what I was getting at on another post I made....people like him discuss, plan, wait for orders.....they dont think for themselves or begin to use an ounce of common sense.....
Oh and about the FEMA director claiming it wasnt his fault these people went without food and water for days....
Did you happen to see the interview yesterday with one of the truck drivers, driving a FEMA semi loaded with water, had to say about that very thing???? The driver informed the reporter that the truck was loaded and ready to go on Monday, that he was in Texas waiting for orders, and his FEMA superiors would not allow him to leave (without explaining why)...
Funny how I only saw that snippet once and havn't seen it get replayed over and over like other interviews..hmmm....
Post by: Antigen on September 03, 2005, 12:48:00 PM
Expert government advisors pegged exactly this disaster as the #3 most likely to occure, w/ another attack on NYC #2. Dunno what #1 is. Would be interesting to know, eh?
But I can't say I'm surprised about any of this. War critics from all quarters have been warning for years now that we're spread too thin. It's a fairly common topic of conversation around here. Remember that Ivan put a few downtowns under water here last year. While the military culture around here is most averse to complaining about it, it didn't escape anyone's notice that our national guard was largely absent.
So I think it's safe to say that this was an extremely predictable situation; practically inevitable, in fact. I think it's shameful how our emergency response people and volunteers are being actively restrained from delivering help and supplies. But, again, not surprising. The feds did the same thing at Colombine and in Miami after hurricane Andrew.
Sacred cows make the best hamburger.
Mark Twain
Post by: Anonymous on September 03, 2005, 01:11:00 PM
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You are support to get food and your supost to stockpile water. Yes, I say they screwed up for not getting the proper supplies.
I shouldn't respond, arguing with a 17 year old know it all can get tiring, but you are wrong in everything you say so I will correct at least this one statement. They DID have food and water stored at their homes. They were TOLD to leave their homes and head for the superdome and other shelters as soon as the flooding began. (or even before the hurricane hit in the first place)
You live in an idealistic fantasy world where you can pull yourself up from your bootstraps and accomplish anything. This is hardly true. The government itself hampered the resuces, shut down the city and gave the people wrong instructions. They didn't 'trust' the government, they had no fucking choice.
If your own government told you to go somewhere, and you were stuck there for 5 days without food, water and any contact with any official- you wouldn't be pissed?
It's great, it really is that you are rich enough to 'fend for yourself', what you really mean by that though, is you can afford supplies. That's all that means. Good for you, you were born into a rich family Overlordd. Now stop insulting people who are going through a living hell an dying as we speak.
You really need to start asking more questions, you don't know SHIT.
Post by: 85 Day Jerk on September 03, 2005, 01:19:00 PM
I would give my left nut to see footage of all the assinine partying that went on in New Orleans right up to the hurricane reaching landfall. I guarantee that half them people we see sludging through the water were drunk as hell and yelling "Show us your tits!" to the chicks on the balconies prior to Monday Morning. What I find deplorable is that all those buses were not deployed BEFORE the storm hit. The local gov't was not very much different that what we have down here. Rake in the almighty tourist dollars, and the hell with the rest. Crunch all you want, we'll make more. As far as the victims, get up and go look in a mirror, it's okay, I'll wait.......................Every thing you buy from now on is gonna cost more. The work you do will be worth less. Vote Non-Partisan. Let them know you think they all suck. Vote for who sucks the least, and it is okay to donate to the Red Cross. The only reason they stink of corruption is because of the scumbag corporations who donate large sums of money for attention.
Post by: Anonymous on September 03, 2005, 01:21:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-02 19:58:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Eat me."
Give me your address so I can toast you on the bahbie... with a lil smoke BBQ sauce, I'm sure you will be crunchy and tasty with my cuisine knowhow. I can make the nastiest, dirtiest, boniest motherfucker taste like Sin City's Parole Officer's nibbles. MMMMMM, finger lickin good, nigger.
Post by: Anonymous on September 03, 2005, 01:30:00 PM
Thus, you know what you want - by what you've got. Think on that while the poor keep dieing out in New Orleans.
Post by: Anonymous on September 03, 2005, 01:32:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on September 03, 2005, 05:36:00 PM
karen
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On 2005-09-03 10:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"And another thing, my family has an old hospital that would house about 300 (three hundred) people. It is resting on over 50 acres of natural land that could be tented and made to house some people pretty much indefinitely. I am offering to aid in making this happen but in all states and cities I have contacted, they keep directing me to other numbers and contacts. I really think noone gives a fucking shit. So, unless you actually put up a fight for what you want, I have learned this in my life, then noone else is going to fight either.
Thus, you know what you want - by what you've got. Think on that while the poor keep dieing out in New Orleans."
Post by: Anonymous on September 03, 2005, 05:40:00 PM
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On 2005-09-01 19:43:00, webcrawler wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-09-01 19:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I am so sad by the lack of aid from our government. They want to stop looting... Feed them!!! Our government doesn't care about the poor and the blacks and the old. If this were a wealthy area there would have been better action quicker."
I'm watching Prime Time live right now and they showed Bush saying he has a zero tolerance policy for looting even when Diane Sawyer said a woman was stealing shoes because her feet were cut up. I can't wait until he's out of office! I won't be surprised if Jeb will have a spin at president sometime down the road either. I'm sickened.
I get paid tomorrow and have been online for hours trying to figure out the best organization to give money to that will directly help people. I looked on the Red Cross site and there is a way to donate to the hurricane relief fund, but the money can also be used for other emergencies. I want 100% of my money going to the people on the gulf. So far the Salvation Army is looking like the best place.
Anyone have any first hand knowledge with a trustworthy organization that will give 100% of the donations to the people that need it?"
Post by: Anonymous on September 03, 2005, 05:44:00 PM
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On 2005-09-01 20:23:00, webcrawler wrote:
"I want to know where this help is because there sure doesn't appear to be any at that arena. There is no reason why it should take 4 days to bring people water, food, and medicine in this country."
Post by: Anonymous on September 03, 2005, 05:46:00 PM
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On 2005-09-01 20:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Salvation army. Not the red cross. Trust me on this one, red cross is much more corrupt, using the money for all kinds of things unrelated to the disaster you give to. Salvation army was the first on the scene handing out food and water, and don't spend the money on huge salaries and remodeling their offices. :tup: "
Post by: Anonymous on September 03, 2005, 05:50:00 PM
Karen
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On 2005-09-02 08:45:00, sammiegirl wrote:
"After a long thoght I've decided to put my money to use buying clothes books and toys for the displaced kids. My neighborhood asociation and some MERK employees are getting cash together and we will buy the stuff and bring it down. Along with money for their parents.
This is a quagmire.
BUSH FUCKED UP BIG TIME and WHERES JEB IN ALL OF THIS.
If Jeb thinks he'll run next term Ill be there reminding people of his lack of action. SHIT FL IS SO CLOSE. I went on moveon.org and volunteered my house as well as a job but my house is small so Ive been asking neighbors to host families.
I know I am in Philly I'd be willing to go get them.
I think this is a good time for all of us to shine through.
SURVIVORS HELPING SURVIVORS.
WE ALL HAD OUR CAT 5 AND WE KNOW PAIN LOSS AND SUFFERING. WE KNOW SHOCK AND TRAUMA. WE KNOW HUNGER HOMELESSNESS WE KNOW. AND NOW WE CAN DO SOMETHING WITH IT
Who better to help.
as SURVIVORS OF STRAIGHT WE HAVE STRENGTH BEYOND ANY REASONABLE EXPECTATION.
Times like these remind me how very much I love you all and pray and hope that you are safe and warm/cool and fed and surrounded by people who love you.
Does anyone know if exstraightlings are down there? If so tell them they can come to my house.
Peace and love to you all
"
Post by: Anonymous on September 03, 2005, 05:54:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-03 14:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Does anyone else think the salvation army is a bit of a cult? They might not remodel offices, but they do make you behave a certain way, and live a certain life, - to me it seems they try to convert others mainly employees to their own thinking.Quote"
On 2005-09-01 20:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Salvation army. Not the red cross. Trust me on this one, red cross is much more corrupt, using the money for all kinds of things unrelated to the disaster you give to. Salvation army was the first on the scene handing out food and water, and don't spend the money on huge salaries and remodeling their offices. :tup: "
Yes, I agree the Salvation Army is cultlike. I stayed in a SA shelter one night during an evacuation order, I left the next morning and decidede I'd take my chances with the storm, or at least find another shelter. They are too weird for me.
Second Harvest Donation Page:
http://www.secondharvest.org/site_content.asp?s=95 (http://www.secondharvest.org/site_content.asp?s=95)
Unlike the Red Cross, Second Harvest is not a blood pyramid scheme run
by Dracula and his night minions.
Post by: Anonymous on September 03, 2005, 06:04:00 PM
Your family might have had the time or the money to prepare, but when did they ever have to prepare for something like this? How can you judge? We don't all live in NOLA so we can be taken care of my friend. That doesn't even make sense. It's amazing how people just assume the reasons why people didn't leave. . . I could give you 10 first hand stories.
In fact, I almost didn't get out. By the time I gathered what I needed, boarded the house, gathered the pets, brought cases of water to my elderly neighbor, it was late on Sunday. I had no where to go that would take me and my pets and loved ones. The "conra-flow" left people jammed up on highways as the storm moved in. I was afraid I might be stuck on the highway when the storm hit. We have two cars. We cleaned the drains. It took us 11 hours to go what is normally 3. It took some people 3 hours to make a 5 minute drive. All the hotels were booked. They were tripling their prices. Gas stations had run out of gas before I even left. I could go on and on. . . I can give you story after story. You just don't even make sense. How many people like me struggled to get out? But just didn't make it. Cars were breaking down and running out of gas all along the way. Your theory is just not reality.
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On 2005-09-02 19:08:00, OverLordd wrote:
"Guys, not to sound uncaring but how many of you know about the way New Orleans is, and even the entire state of Louisiana. I grew up in New Orleans Louisiana. I was taught how to survive in a hurricane and how to prepare. These people did not prepare as well as they should of.
Huey P. Long, a old govenor and his welfare state. The people currently in Louisiana stayed of their own free will. They thought the government would take care of them. They took no responsiblity for their own actions. All this behavior was perpiratated by Huey P. Long and his idea of "The government will take care of you." They need to take responisblity for not being prepared and not leaving during the manditory evacuation. I may seem heartless, but take it from a person who lived in New Orleans for a large part of his life, they could be doing better if they took care of their own actions."
Post by: OverLordd on September 03, 2005, 10:31:00 PM
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um...when's the last time you went grocery shopping overlord?
This afternoon.... I dont understand why you ask.
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I shouldn't respond, arguing with a 17 year old know it all can get tiring,
Just as a side note, I have been 18 for the last few months.
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If your own government told you to go somewhere, and you were stuck there for 5 days without food, water and any contact with any official- you wouldn't be pissed?
Its called being a solider... for some reason I find this comment really really funny. Not that it was a foolish comment, but the first thing I thought of when I saw this was being a solider.
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I hate to break this to ya dude, but, there was no partying going on in the french quarter on sunday night. Those scenes you are recalling are TOURISTS during mardi gras. Native new orleanians generally stay away from bourbon street that time of year. Your perception of the real New Orleans seems to be a little skewed.
He is right. Most of the people you see on burbon street are from elseware. The people you see during mardi gras pissing on the sidewalks, and making fools of them selfs are doing it because they know no one that knows them is watching.
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Does anyone else think the salvation army is a bit of a cult? They might not remodel offices, but they do make you behave a certain way, and live a certain life, - to me it seems they try to convert others mainly employees to their own thinking.
I dont understand what you mean. Please explane what you mean and please tell me any experances you have. I thought these people were ok.
Post by: Anonymous on September 03, 2005, 10:35:00 PM
Post by: OverLordd on September 03, 2005, 10:41:00 PM
Post by: OverLord on September 03, 2005, 10:43:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on September 03, 2005, 10:51:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on September 04, 2005, 12:56:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-09-03 10:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-09-02 19:58:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Eat me."
Give me your address so I can toast you on the bahbie... with a lil smoke BBQ sauce, I'm sure you will be crunchy and tasty with my cuisine knowhow. I can make the nastiest, dirtiest, boniest motherfucker taste like Sin City's Parole Officer's nibbles. MMMMMM, finger lickin good, nigger."
Just to show you I'm a good listener, I will paraphrase what you just said, and repeat it back to you: you're saying you want to fire up the griddle, get me hot, pour your special sauce all over me and then eat me. Have I heard you correctly? I think good communication is the cornerstone to a good relationship.
Post by: Anonymous on September 04, 2005, 01:57:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-09-01 19:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I am so sad by the lack of aid from our government. They want to stop looting... Feed them!!! Our government doesn't care about the poor and the blacks and the old. If this were a wealthy area there would have been better action quicker."
Post by: Anonymous on September 04, 2005, 07:02:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-09-03 22:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I hear that in the wealthy areas of NOLA there were buses while we watched people dying at the conv. ctr.Quote"
On 2005-09-01 19:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I am so sad by the lack of aid from our government. They want to stop looting... Feed them!!! Our government doesn't care about the poor and the blacks and the old. If this were a wealthy area there would have been better action quicker."
I saw this, I was there. Mel Gibson came out in his MadMax outfit, Tina Turner was singing. He started beating on people. Then the Terminator was there suddenly, not the one you know who is governor of Cali. This guy was all metal and he had these really lame quotes to say from his memory banks, he went through all of them just before killing off several humans.
Post by: Anonymous on September 04, 2005, 09:42:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on September 04, 2005, 12:14:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-03 21:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-09-03 10:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-09-02 19:58:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Eat me."
Give me your address so I can toast you on the bahbie... with a lil smoke BBQ sauce, I'm sure you will be crunchy and tasty with my cuisine knowhow. I can make the nastiest, dirtiest, boniest motherfucker taste like Sin City's Parole Officer's nibbles. MMMMMM, finger lickin good, nigger."
Just to show you I'm a good listener, I will paraphrase what you just said, and repeat it back to you: you're saying you want to fire up the griddle, get me hot, pour your special sauce all over me and then eat me. Have I heard you correctly? I think good communication is the cornerstone to a good relationship. "
Yeah, I damm near could'na said that better mah niggerpoor, waterlogged self. Hey, you got any toothpix? I have a feelen' you gon be juicy and hard to get off mah teef like crispy. Is you good for tartar control?
Post by: Nonconformistlaw on September 04, 2005, 01:53:00 PM
Ginger, this is my response to much of what you said in you last post to this thread
I agree that it is difficult to comprehend why on earth so many people would not fully realize the seriousness of the potential damage that the hurricane was likely to inflict. And your right, that the potential for disaster in NO was widely known. But here?s a few things I came up with which may explain why some of the 20% that stayed really may not have fully realized what was about to hit them?..
1. LACK OF EDUCATION amongst impoverished people - The information that was known about the potential for disaster in NO was widely known by EXPERTS and LOCAL, STATE, AND FED OFFICIALS. In addition, highly educated people are obviously very likely to fully grasp information shared from experts and officials and therefore be likely to run like hell when told to. That is NOT to say less or uneducated people are incapable of understanding?that is not what I mean at all. Those with past experience with hurricanes also are highly likely to ?get it? so to speak and take precautions, heed warnings, and evacuate. People with good common sense, regardless of their level of education, are probably also likely to heed warnings and get the hell out of dodge.
In comparison, imagine for a moment those in the most impoverished of circumstances. Most have very little education. Many tend to dismiss information from educated people, as they are suspicious of educated people to begin with. Ok this leaves good old fashion common sense? first, many of those people with the sense to realize what was coming couldn?t get out even if they wanted to for reasons I?ve already discusses in prior posts on this thread. Second, there are many degrees of intelligence?.and?lets face it?.some people were unfortunate in that they were born with low levels of intelligence. That?s not their fault. Combine lack of education, suspicion, rejection and resentment of ?educated? ideas, and lower levels of intelligence ? I see a very sad, stark reality, that impoverished uneducated people really may have dismissed the warnings?..and I cant bring myself to judge, criticize, or condemn their decision to stay?.I realize what I am saying may come across the wrong way, so let me stress that I personally don?t judge anyone based on their level of education? I detest those who do judge people who are ?uneducated.?
2. PAST EXPERIENCE. This came from the mouth of the Mississippi governor (see Russert transcript below)on why may of his residents did not leave and I think it applies to NO residents as well. Many times the residents boarded up, evacuated, and came back, only to find out they took precautions for nothing. Its then very easy for me to see, that people might therefore dismiss yet another warning and evacuation order. Incidentally, NO had to evacuate in 98 for hurricane George and only 50% actually left. So it really think its possible many thought evacuating would be pointless?based on past experience. If you boarded up, packed and evacuated numerous times without anything like Katrina happening?.ask yourself?is it reasonable that some people might get to the point where they no longer take the threat seriously?
3. MEDIA HYPE. The media, for all its good points, has a tendency to blow a simple storm out of proportion for the purpose of having something to report when nothing better is going on. Usually, as I have noticed, the impending doom of the ?storm? rarely materializes in the manner the media claims it will. So, sometimes the threat of a storm, by some people anyway, can be written off as yet more media hype, exaggerations, etc, and therefore, may not take a serious real threat seriously.
4. DENIAL. Human beings are well known to personally deny certain harsh realities of life?I guess I see it as a coping mechanism sometimes?after all, who wants to live in fear? For to admit the danger to oneself, for some people, means fear. I really believe some people because of this easily fall into ?Nothing bad will happen;? or ?I didn?t think it would be THIS bad.?
5. PARALYZED BY FEAR. There are some people, who fully realize the threat that is coming, may become paralyzed by fear?ever seen or heard of someone in a dangerous situation just stands there and does nothing? Combine this factor with a FEELING OF HELPLESS that a person w/o $ or transportation might experience. I think it is possible, some people who may have understood the threat, ended up just doing nothing due to a combination of both factors?..What would you do if you were scared to death and felt utterly powerless over a given situation, at the same time?
6. BAD DECISION MAKING IN A CRISIS ? and I don?t mean this in a critical sense because not all of us are good at making wise decisions under extreme stress. I think that is understandable.
7. TO HELP RELEIF EFFORTS ? many may have lingered to help relief efforts?.such as doctors, nurses, police, firefighters, and other emergency workers who felt an obligation to their community, to stay behind to do their jobs in a crisis situation?to save lives
8. OPPORTUNISTS ? yes I have to acknowledge that some people may have stayed simply to take advantage of the situation/looting. However I doubt many people fell in to this category?I think to be fair though, I had to acknowledge that a small fraction of the 20% probably was in this category----and I will NOT defend or support such people.
And a side note, even if you are right that these people, the 20% that stayed behind were just idiots that ignored well publicized warnings, I answer that with a question?doesn?t every single human being on this planet ignore serious well publicized, well known risks every single day? (One example ? smoking ----I ignore the warnings on this one every day even though I know that I will most likely die of cancer)
I guess I just cant fathom, in the situation of NO, criticizing the victims?.but on another note, I do think plenty of criticism is warranted on this issue: If officials knew damn well that a sizable percentage of its citizens would literally be trapped in the city due to having no money or transportation to evacuate in conformance with Mayor orders, why in hell was there no cavalry of greyhound buses lined up ready to evacuate those who truly needed help out BEFORE the storm hit??????????
If your interested?Tim Russert on Meet the Press today posed that very question to former NO mayor Morial.--------?MR. RUSSERT: There was a poll taken before the hurricane, and about 60 percent of the residents of New Orleans said they probably wouldn't leave if they were asked to evacuate. Many of them said they couldn't leave. They live check to check. They don't have an automobile. Should the mayor, should the governor, should the president, should everyone have been more insistent and provided the resources-- trains, planes, buses, automobiles, boats--to evacuate the city before the hurricane?? ------ I personally think that is a damn good question.
Here?s the transcript. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9179790/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9179790/)
::rainbow::
Post by: Anonymous on September 04, 2005, 02:14:00 PM
By Elinor Shields
BBC News
Images from the stricken city of New Orleans show that many of those suffering in its streets and shelters are mainly black and poor.
The plight of those stranded amid the filth and the dead has highlighted a side of the city most tourists did not see - one in which two-thirds of its residents are black and more than a quarter live in poverty.
Anger is mounting among African-American leaders that this section was left behind when others fled.
Some say the chaos in Katrina's aftermath has exposed deep divisions in both the city and US society.
"We cannot allow it to be said by history that the difference between those who lived and... died... was nothing more than poverty, age or skin colour," Congressman Elijah Cummings said.
'Paycheck to paycheck'
Correspondents say New Orleans' glamorous reputation has always concealed a high level of deprivation.
NEW ORLEANS
485,000 residents
10 times national murder rate
21% of households without access to a car
The city famous for its jazz clubs and horse-drawn carriage rides was also a place in which about one in three children lived in poverty, in one of the poorest states in the country.
Observers say this group was particularly vulnerable in the face of a hurricane.
Many of those trapped by Katrina's floodwaters lived in dilapidated neighbourhoods that were long known to be exposed to disaster if the levees failed.
And a large number would have had no means to flee the region as the storm loomed - a recent US census found that one-fifth of the city's residents had no access to a car.
"We don't have transportation," one resident told WHBF-TV. "We're living paycheck to paycheck, it's not like we're just able to get up and leave."
A former leader of the black caucus in the House of Representatives agrees.
"It is one thing to receive a warning to get out - it's something else to have the ability to get out," US Congressman James Clyburn said.
Uneasy questions
Black members of Congress have also criticised the pace of relief efforts.
Some say the response was slow because those most affected are poor.
I'm ashamed of America. I'm ashamed of our government
Congresswoman Carolyn Kilpatrick
"I'm ashamed of America. I'm ashamed of our government," Congresswoman Carolyn Kilpatrick said.
"George Bush doesn't care about black people," rapper Kanye West told viewers of an NBC benefit concert for hurricane victims.
Other commentators object to the media's handling of the crisis.
"Television is creating a sympathetic image of white people fleeing, and black people caught up in a shoplifting orgy," Lawrence Aaron wrote in New Jersey's Record.
But some hope that the aftermath of the hurricane will force people to confront the issue of inequality.
"Most cities have a hidden, or not always talked about, poor population, black and white, and most of the time we look past them," Spencer Crew , the chief of a Cincinnati civil rights centre, told the New York Times.
"This is a moment in time when we can't look past them. Their plight is coming to the forefront now," he said.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/a ... 210648.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/americas/4210648.stm)
Published: 2005/09/04 09:42:13 GMT
© BBC MMV
Post by: Antigen on September 04, 2005, 02:48:00 PM
But I don't think that explains anywhere near the number who are there. I can understand a little skepticizm in the rest of the gulf coast region. But the city of NO itself, no. Just about any time I've seen ppl from NO interviewed about their city, the topic of catastrophic flood comes up. It wasn't just the well educated. Any fool knows that water seeks it's own level and that living below sea level is not a particularly good idea. I think it was broadly known, even by the unletter Cajuns.
I just watched a little bit of a congressional hearing on hurricane preparedness in C-Span yesterday. This hearing occured last June and was attended by LA reps, the governor and others. They specifically stated that, in the event of a big storm headed for NOLA, they would require FEMA or someone to provide bus transportation for some 150k impoverished residents and that the effort should start at least 2 days prior to expected landfal. They also talked about improving the levies because they knew, to a certainty, that they would fail if they got hit w/ anything more than about a class 3.
They knew. But they were unable or unwilling to do any of the things they knew had to be done about it. I think part of that has to do w/ the fact that FEMA, for all it's flaws and failings in prior instances, is now even less effective under the command of Büsh cronnies at Homeland (in)Security. Even when, finally, they were given permission to leave their blue chairs and attand to the bureaucraticly generated disaster at the Civic Center, the first thing they did was to send in the guns.
I think if they had air dropped water and food several times in adequate quantities, they would not have had to use nearly as much deadly force to calm the crowd. But that's just me. I tend to think hungry, terrified people who think they're going to die anyway are more prone to violence and other andisocial behavior than normal.
Just because you do not take an interest in politics, doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you.
PERICLES (430 BC)
Post by: Nonconformistlaw on September 04, 2005, 03:25:00 PM
-----"I just watched a little bit of a congressional hearing on hurricane preparedness in C-Span yesterday. This hearing occured last June and was attended by LA reps, the governor and others. They specifically stated that, in the event of a big storm headed for NOLA, they would require FEMA or someone to provide bus transportation for some 150k impoverished residents and that the effort should start at least 2 days prior to expected landfal. They also talked about improving the levies because they knew, to a certainty, that they would fail if they got hit w/ anything more than about a class 3."---------
I'm not the least bit surprised the legislature discussed this, then someone somewhere failed to implement a plan based on those discussions. Clearly, somebody should have provided a calvary of transportation BEFORE the storm made landfall.
-------"They knew. But they were unable or unwilling to do any of the things they knew had to be done about it. I think part of that has to do w/ the fact that FEMA, for all it's flaws and failings in prior instances, is now even less effective under the command of Büsh cronnies at Homeland (in)Security. Even when, finally, they were given permission to leave their blue chairs and attand to the bureaucraticly generated disaster at the Civic Center, the first thing they did was to send in the guns."------
You should read the Russert Meet the Press transcript...at one point it is brought to Russert's attention that FEMA turned away a lot of aid that started coming in early in the storms' aftermath---its really disturbing that FEMA consciously told aid to go away, not just once...and yeah I know beaurocratic red tape is part of it...but it really makes me wonder if there is more to it than mere beaurocratic ineptitide....
When you said ----------"I think if they had air dropped water and food several times in adequate quantities, they would not have had to use nearly as much deadly force to calm the crowd. But that's just me. I tend to think hungry, terrified people who think they're going to die anyway are more prone to violence and other andisocial behavior than normal."-----------------
I completely agree...food and water would have done a great deal to prevent much of the violence...desperation leads people to do desperate and inconceivable things in order to survive. And who can blame them...christ I know I would do whatever it takes to survive myself....
Post by: Antigen on September 04, 2005, 04:38:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-04 12:25:00, Nonconformistlaw wrote:
I completely agree...food and water would have done a great deal to prevent much of the violence...desperation leads people to do desperate and inconceivable things in order to survive. And who can blame them...christ I know I would do whatever it takes to survive myself....
No, no! From what I've heard (and I'll be damned if I can figure out why we haven't seen pictures) we're not talking about desperate survival measures here. We're talking all out mayhem; rapes, beatings, shootings.... like if you were a member of a Cajun street gang before the storm and convinced you were going to die anyway, what would you do? That's what they did, by all reports. I suppose I did get something valuable out of the program after all in that I can accept and even forgive horribly inhumane, insane behavior by people who are driven to it by horrific circumstance. I've seen so many normal, decent people behave like sadistic animals due to far less extreme circumstance than what those poor bastards have endured over the last week. Still can't exactly excuse it, but I can accept that that's the way it is.
May your days be joyfully challenging and your words artfully true
-- Ginger Warbis SMA, `00
Post by: Nonconformistlaw on September 04, 2005, 06:24:00 PM
Sorry, I misunderstood your comment before...I also agree with what you are saying here....and yeah, I think I learned the same exact thing in straight. Extreme circumstances drives people to do extreme things that are absolutely mind boggling. And I've seen that too, that normally decent people start to doing the most screwed up things if they are pushed to far. To illustrate what I mean...I once said in a college class (a criminal justice class focused on serial killers), that all human beings can become "criminal" (engage in violence) if they are pushed too far....and everyone has a different breaking point so to speak...therefore..in my mind anyway...whether a given person starts acting "horribly inhumane, and insane" depends not only on the extreme circumstances but also each individuals particular breaking point. Obviously there was plenty of violence in NO, but many were not violent.
Hope I am explaining my thinking clearly, but I agree with what you said...word for word, and I dont excuse it either...its just after seeing it happen in straight...you are absolutely right, it is very easy to see how the violence has happened in NO.
[ This Message was edited by: nonconformistlaw on 2005-09-04 15:27 ]
Post by: Anonymous on September 05, 2005, 02:38:00 AM
Quote
Yeah, I damm near could'na said that better mah niggerpoor, waterlogged self. Hey, you got any toothpix? I have a feelen' you gon be juicy and hard to get off mah teef like crispy. Is you good for tartar control?
Post by: Dr Fucktard on September 05, 2005, 02:42:00 AM
Quote
1. LACK OF EDUCATION amongst impoverished people - The information that was known about the potential for disaster in NO was widely known by EXPERTS and LOCAL, STATE, AND FED OFFICIALS. In addition, highly educated people are obviously very likely to fully grasp information shared from experts and officials and therefore be likely to run like hell when told to. That is NOT to say less or uneducated people are incapable of understanding?that is not what I mean at all. Those with past experience with hurricanes also are highly likely to ?get it? so to speak and take precautions, heed warnings, and evacuate. People with good common sense, regardless of their level of education, are probably also likely to heed warnings and get the hell out of dodge.
In comparison, imagine for a moment those in the most impoverished of circumstances. Most have very little education. Many tend to dismiss information from educated people, as they are suspicious of educated people to begin with. Ok this leaves good old fashion common sense? first, many of those people with the sense to realize what was coming couldn?t get out even if they wanted to for reasons I?ve already discusses in prior posts on this thread. Second, there are many degrees of intelligence?.and?lets face it?.some people were unfortunate in that they were born with low levels of intelligence. That?s not their fault. Combine lack of education, suspicion, rejection and resentment of ?educated? ideas, and lower levels of intelligence ? I see a very sad, stark reality, that impoverished uneducated people really may have dismissed the warnings?..and I cant bring myself to judge, criticize, or condemn their decision to stay?.I realize what I am saying may come across the wrong way, so let me stress that I personally don?t judge anyone based on their level of education? I detest those who do judge people who are ?uneducated.?
2. PAST EXPERIENCE. This came from the mouth of the Mississippi governor (see Russert transcript below)on why may of his residents did not leave and I think it applies to NO residents as well. Many times the residents boarded up, evacuated, and came back, only to find out they took precautions for nothing. Its then very easy for me to see, that people might therefore dismiss yet another warning and evacuation order. Incidentally, NO had to evacuate in 98 for hurricane George and only 50% actually left. So it really think its possible many thought evacuating would be pointless?based on past experience. If you boarded up, packed and evacuated numerous times without anything like Katrina happening?.ask yourself?is it reasonable that some people might get to the point where they no longer take the threat seriously?
3. MEDIA HYPE. The media, for all its good points, has a tendency to blow a simple storm out of proportion for the purpose of having something to report when nothing better is going on. Usually, as I have noticed, the impending doom of the ?storm? rarely materializes in the manner the media claims it will. So, sometimes the threat of a storm, by some people anyway, can be written off as yet more media hype, exaggerations, etc, and therefore, may not take a serious real threat seriously.
4. DENIAL. Human beings are well known to personally deny certain harsh realities of life?I guess I see it as a coping mechanism sometimes?after all, who wants to live in fear? For to admit the danger to oneself, for some people, means fear. I really believe some people because of this easily fall into ?Nothing bad will happen;? or ?I didn?t think it would be THIS bad.?
5. PARALYZED BY FEAR. There are some people, who fully realize the threat that is coming, may become paralyzed by fear?ever seen or heard of someone in a dangerous situation just stands there and does nothing? Combine this factor with a FEELING OF HELPLESS that a person w/o $ or transportation might experience. I think it is possible, some people who may have understood the threat, ended up just doing nothing due to a combination of both factors?..What would you do if you were scared to death and felt utterly powerless over a given situation, at the same time?
6. BAD DECISION MAKING IN A CRISIS ? and I don?t mean this in a critical sense because not all of us are good at making wise decisions under extreme stress. I think that is understandable.
7. TO HELP RELEIF EFFORTS ? many may have lingered to help relief efforts?.such as doctors, nurses, police, firefighters, and other emergency workers who felt an obligation to their community, to stay behind to do their jobs in a crisis situation?to save lives
8. OPPORTUNISTS ? yes I have to acknowledge that some people may have stayed simply to take advantage of the situation/looting. However I doubt many people fell in to this category?I think to be fair though, I had to acknowledge that a small fraction of the 20% probably was in this category----and I will NOT defend or support such people.
But you left out one thing here, NCL -- DRUG USE. :grin:
Post by: Antigen on September 05, 2005, 12:34:00 PM
From: "Mises Daily Article" Mises Economics Blog (http://blog.mises.org/).Then Katrina Came
by Walter Block
[Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005] (http://www.mises.org/story/1903)
 |
Here I was, sitting in my office at Loyola University, New Orleans, where I teach economics, very busy doing what I take to be the Lord's work, and something unlikely as a wind on steroids rends asunder my work and life. It presented denizens of New Orleans with a stark choice. Evacuate at great inconvenience and run the risk that the oncoming bad weather will veer elsewhere rendering such flight unnecessary, or stay put and brazen it out, and have to deal with flooding, lack of electricity, no air conditioning in 90-degree-plus temperatures, to say nothing of actually loss of life and/or limb, either due to the storm itself, or to the aftermath, including looting, flooding, and loss of law and order.
My own modus operandi, finely honed after spending almost half a decade in New Orleans, has been to wait until the very last minute, and then bolt out of there, tail between my legs, and then sit in bumper-to-bumper traffic. For Ivan, I crept to Baton Rouge, a trip of a little over an hour in ordinary circumstances, in nine hours. For Katrina, I left home early Sunday afternoon (8/28/05) inched up to Vicksburg in eight hours, which would usually take a little over two hours. Then, I went on up to Little Rock, my previous stamping ground (actually, it was Conway, a town of about 50,000, which lies about 30 miles northwest of the capital of Arkansas), and from there to Vancouver by plane.
I am now safely ensconced in western Canada, writing up the notes I took en route. Happily, I escaped lightly, without too much inconvenience. But my heart goes out to those who were very much less fortunate.
What has this to do with political economy, the usual subject of my writing interest? A lot, that's what.
I. Private Enterprise
First of all, the levees that were breached by the hurricane were built, owned and operated by government. Specifically, by the Army Corps of Engineers (http://www.lewrockwell.com/rockwell/flood.html). The levees could have been erected to a greater height. They could have been stronger than they were. The drainage system could have operated more effectively. Here, the New Orleans Sewerage and Water Board was at fault. It consists of three main operating systems: sewerage, water, and drainage. See here (http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=New+Orleans+Water+Board&btnG=Google+Search&meta=), here (http://www.bgr.org/budgets/s&wb/systems_description.htm) and bureau (http://www.lewrockwell.com/block/block8.html). I take no position on whether levees are a good or bad thing; only that if they are to be built, this should be done by an economic entity that can lose funding, and thus put its very existence at risk, if it errs. This can only apply to the market, never the state.
This is neither the time nor place to examine in detail the case for private ownership of bodies of water such as the Mississippi River, Lake Pontchartrain, and, indeed, all oceans, rivers, seas and lakes. But the same principles apply here as they do to land. Suffice it to say that this is a question that should be explored, for it is no accident that where there is private property there is safety and responsibility, and where there is not there is not.
Secondly, numerous roads, highways and bridges were washed out, collapsed, or were swept away. This makes it far more difficult for rescuers to get to the beleaguered city, and for refugees to leave. You will never guess who built, operated and maintained these facilities. Yes, it was government!
It of course cannot be denied that various oil drilling rigs also came unglued, and that these were all private enterprises. One of them even collided with a bridge, greatly damaging it. However, there is a significant difference between the two types of events. The market test of profit and loss applies only to the latter, not to the former. Those oil companies that built their platforms more strongly will tend to grab market share from those that did not. No such regimen operates in the governmental sector. Imagine if the oil drilling rigs were all built by the state. They would have undoubtedly created far more damage.
II. The Dead Hand of the Past
It is by no means clear that there should even be a city in the territory now occupied by New Orleans.
Ideally, under a regime of economic freedom, what determines whether a geographical area should be settled at all, and if so how intensively? It depends upon whether or not, in the eyes of the human economic actors involved, the subjective costs outweigh the benefits. The reason no one lives in the north or south poles, and that population density in Siberia, Northern Canada and the desert areas of Nevada is very low, is that the disadvantages are vastly greater than the advantages in those places.
However, if government subsidizes building in areas people on their own would not choose to locate, then the populace can no longer allocate itself geographically in a rational manner. Similarly, the government declares drought-stricken farmlands an emergency area, and heavily subsidizes agriculture in such locales (http://www.fsa.usda.gov/pas/publications/facts/html/EMProcess04.htm), there is also misallocation of settlement in this regard.
The Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA (http://www.fema.gov/about/)) was created as part of the U.S. Department of Homeland Security only on March 1, 2003, but the federal government has been doling out gobs of money to inhabitants of areas struck by tornados, storms, snow and other inclement weather for years. Such declarations number in the dozens for 2005 alone (http://www.fema.gov/news/disasters.fema?year=2005). Southern Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama have already been declared federal disaster areas. Tons of money will pour into these political jurisdictions. Thus, locational decisions are and will continue to be rendered less rational than otherwise, if people had to pay the full costs of their geographical settlement decisions.
It may well be that with the advantage of hindsight, the Big Easy is like several of these other places: not too cold, or drought-stricken, but too low, below sea level, and thus too much in danger of being flooded.
States Mises in this regard:
"Suppose that, making use of our entire store of technological skill and our present-day knowledge of geography, we were to undertake to resettle the earth's surface in such a way that we should afterwards be in a position to take maximum advantage of the natural distribution of raw materials. And suppose further that for this purpose the entire capital wealth of the present were at our disposal in a form that would allow us to invest it in whatever way was regarded as the most suitable for the end in view.
"In such a case the world would certainly take on an appearance that would be very considerably different from the one it now presents. Many areas would be less densely populated ... The great trade routes would follow other courses."
At first glance, this does not support a New Orleans with anything like its close-to-one-half-million population at its present location. Yes, this city is situated at the mouth of a great river, and offers a world-class port to international shipping. On the other hand as recent events have so tragically demonstrated, these benefits may be more than offset by the fact that it lies below sea level.
Does this mean that New Orleans would be doomed under a free enterprise system? This is quite possibly the case, if we could do everything all over again, and start off de novo, at the present time. But not necessarily, given that vast investment has already been made in streets, buildings, pipes, etc. Even though, perhaps, if we knew then what we know now, no city would have been erected south of Lake Pontchartrain, it does not logically follow that it should not be rebuilt at present, under realistic assumptions.
Given the New Orleans is now located where it is, it is entirely possible that it is economical for there to remain a large human settlement in that area. What cannot be denied is that when government enters the picture, economic calculation of this sort becomes impossible.
Mises continues his analysis:
"With regard to choice of location ... new plants appear most efficient in the light of the existing situation. But ... consideration for capital goods produced in the past under certain circumstances makes the technologically best ... (location) ... appear uneconomical. History and the past have their say. An economic calculation that did not take them into account would be deficient. We are not only of today; we are heirs of the past as well. Our capital wealth is handed down from the past, and this fact has its consequences ... (S)trict rationality ... induces the entrepreneur to continue production in a disadvantageous location ... "
That is, New Orleans might well be a "disadvantageous location" based on the assumption that we can with hindsight rearrange all previous locational decisions. But, we can do no such thing. Rather, capital (buildings, roads, pipelines, etc.) are bequeathed to us at a certain location. As it happens, lots of valuable capital is located in New Orleans. This fact would incline us to reinvest in that locale, storms be damned. But only private enterprise can make such a decision on a rational basis. When government muddies the waters, this cannot take place.
The best way then, to rationally determine whether or not the Big Easy should be saved, is to leave this decision entirely to free enterprise ? to capitalist entrepreneurs, who, alone, can rationally make such determinations. As the Austrian side (http://www.google.com/u/Mises?hl=en&submit.x=0&submit.y=0&&q=socialist%20calculation) of the Socialist Calculation Debate has demonstrated, only with market prices can this be done. Moreover, private owners make such decisions with their own money, or funds entrusted to them; if they err, they alone suffer. They do not bring the rest of us down along with them.
III. Weather Socialism
But there is a third element we cannot ignore: weather socialism.
According to an old adage, critics of government can properly blame this institution for many things, but bad weather is not among them. Wrong, wrong. At the risk of sounding out of step with the mainstream (a new experience for me) the state is responsible not only for hurricanes, but for tornados, storms, typhoon, tsunami, excessive heat, excessive cold, too much rain, too little rain, floods, droughts, desertification, tempests, squalls, gales, rainstorms, snowstorms, thunderstorms, blizzards, downpours, cyclones, whirlwinds, twisters, monsoons, torrential rains, cloudbursts, showers, etc. You name any kind of bad weather conditions, and the government is to blame.
Why, pray tell? Because the state at all levels grabs off almost 50% of the GDP in taxes, and its regulations account for a significant additional amount of wealth not created. If the voracious government left all or even most of the property created by its rightful owners ? those who created it in the first place with their own hands ? the weather problem could undoubtedly be better addressed by private enterprise.
And for what wondrous tasks does the government waste trillions of our earnings? Let me count some few of the ways. It subsidizes farmers who ought to be allowed to go bankrupt when they cannot earn an honest profit in their industry. As the number of farmers has declined over the years, the number of bureaucrats in the Department of Agriculture has increased. Welfare for farmers and agricultural mandarins.
Speaking of welfare, this is but the tip of the iceberg. Our masters in Washington D.C. distribute our hard-earned money to people who bear children they cannot afford to feed, and to corporate welfare bums. Then there is the Department of Education (weren't the Republicans going to get rid of this sore on the body politic?) that presides over a public school system that warehouses and mis-educates our children.
And don't get me started on our system of medical socialism that wastes yet other precious resources. We don't have HillaryCare yet but we are well on our way. Then, too, we must count government throwing our money at the Post Office, the Space program, ethanol, foreign "aid," unemployment insurance, the list goes on and on.
The drug war incarcerates thousands of innocent people ? who could be out there creating additional wealth ? at a cost exceeding tuition and room and board at some of our most prestigious universities. Last but certainly not least, speaking of war, the U.S. has been bullying its way around the world for decades, creating untold havoc. Katrina can't hold a candle to our armed forces in terms of killing innocent people. There are no truer words than that "War is the health of the State (http://www.mises.org/rothbard/warpeace.asp)."
Suppose that the "public sector" were not wasting untold riches. What has this got to do with improving weather conditions? Well, a lot of the money returned to the long-suffering taxpayers (and much of the additional wealth created by the ending of economic regulations) would be allocated in the usual directions: sailboats and pianos, and violin lessons and better food and more entertainment, etc. But some of it would likely be invested in more research and development as to the causes and cures of unwelcome weather conditions.
Is there any doubt that in 100, or 1,000, or 10,000 years ? assuming the government does not blow us all up before then ? we will no longer be plagued by uncooperative clouds? I don't say that if the state disappeared tomorrow the next day we would have clear weather (and rain to order from 2am ? 4am), but surely the ending of the former would bring about the latter that much more quickly.
How would this work? Wouldn't the problem of "public goods" rend the market a "failure," as our friends from the Chicago so-called "free enterprise" school of economics would have it? Their argument is that if I come up with a way to stop storms dead in their tracks, or better yet, orchestrate matters such that they do not form in the first place, everyone else will "free ride" on my innovation. The other beneficiaries will simply refuse to pay me for this boon I confer on them, so I will not invest any money on this task in the first place. And neither will you. So the private enterprise system cannot handle such challenges.
Stuff and nonsense.
First of all, this task need not be accomplished on a for profit basis. Non-profit organizations, too, are part of the private sector of the economy. Just looking at the charitable outpourings to New Orleanians from all corners of the country, we can see that there is no shortage of benevolence and good will for the victims of Katrina. I should single out for special mention in this regard that ?evil? profit maximizing large corporation that grinds down suppliers, immiserates its own workers due to its anti union policies, bankrupts small grocers, and just all around exploits every else it touches: . This hated corporation contributed $1 million to the Salvation Army (http://www1.salvationarmy.org/usw/www_usw.nsf) for hurricane relief. More Recently, Wal-Mart committed an additional $15 million for this purpose. As part of this commitment (http://www.walmartstores.com/wmstore/wmstores/Mainnews.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@1373085481.1125693890@@@@&BV_EngineID=cccfaddfigldeijcfkfcfkjdgoodglg.0&pagetype=news&template=NewsArticle.jsp&categoryOID=-8300&contentOID=14890&catID=-8248&prevPage=News), Wal-Mart will ?establish mini-Wal-Mart stores in areas impacted by the hurricane. Items such as clothing, diapers, baby wipes, food, formula, toothbrushes, bedding and water will be given out free of charge to those with a demonstrated need.?
In contrast, I do not recommend the American Red Cross, which is too tied to the state. Unhappily, from my own point of view, Wal-Mart, sent another $1 million to the Red Cross. But my favorite charities, if you want to really help the inhabitants of the Gulf Coast, are two. Both support free enterprise, the last best hope for people there and everywhere. One is the Mises Institute (http://www.mises.org/); two, any of the State Libertarian Parties of Mississippi (http://www.concentric.net/~acausey/LP/lphome.htm), or Alabama (http://www.al.lp.org/index.php). But not the national party, until they deal with this (http://www.lewrockwell.com/rockwell/regime-libs.html) issue.
The point is, if we the people had vastly more money at our disposal than we do now, thanks to government profligacy with our funds, we would be able to donate some of it to the not-for-profit sector to engage in research and development for weather control.
Secondly, the market has a way of internalizing the so-called externalities that supposedly prevent firms from providing storm-busting services. Within limits, and depending upon technology, the purveyors of flood insurance (http://www.mises.org/etexts/defensemyth.pdf) would be able to turn the rain and wind on and off like a spigot, depending upon the locational densities of their clientele.
For example, if in area A 90% of the landowners are members of Hurricane Busters, Inc., and in area B only 10% are, there is little doubt as to which will be better served by this particular firm. Then, too, there will be not only social pressure, but economic pressure, for large firms in any geographical area to sign up for such services. Those that do not (particularly in states stretching from Texas to Florida, and most certainly in New Orleans) will tend to find their customer base disappearing.
As but one small instance of this phenomenon, companies with large parking lots have recently instituted reserved spaces for pregnant women and new moms (http://www.mises.org/story/1898). No government agency forced them to do any such thing. (Prediction: the state will soon do just that, so as to garner credit for this very human and profitable policy). As this movement catches on, few will be able to resist. A similar situation is likely to arise with regard to protection from hurricanes. At the very least, if government would but get out of the way, it would clear the path for private enterprise to more quickly bring us the day when the Katrinas of the future will be obviated.
To conclude, here is what I see as the libertarian position on the storm and its aftermath. No national guard or other representatives of the state should be brought in. They are in effect "murderers and thieves." (http://www.mises.org/story/Spooner,%20Lysander.%20(1870)%201966.%20No%20Treason:%20The%20Constitution%20of%20No%20Authority%20and%20A%20Letter%20to%20Thomas%20F.%20Bayard,%20%20Larkspur,%20Colorado:%20Rampart%20College%20http:/www.lysanderspooner.org/notreason.htm) Instead, private police agencies, appointed by property owners, should deal with the looters.
| Block tells all: $13 (http://www.mises.org/store/Defending-the-Undefendable-P136C0.aspx) |
Private enterprise alone should determine if the Big Easy is worth saving or not. Problems of "transactions costs" will be far easier to overcome than challenges presented by an inept and economically irrational government. Possibly a Donald Trump type might try to buy up all the buildings at a fraction of their previous value, and save his new investment by levee building and water pumping. He wouldn't need to get 100% sales. A lesser amount, say, 90%, might do, and he would only make his initial purchases subject to reaching this level. That is, he might first purchase options to buy.
______________________________
Walter Block (http://www.mises.org/fellows.asp?control=6) is Harold E. Wirth Eminent Scholar, Endowed Chair of Economics Loyola University, and senior fellow of the Mises Institute. A version of this piece ran on LRC (http://www.lewrockwell.com/). With his .edu account down, his current email is: [email protected] (http://mailto:[email protected]). Comments on this article can Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)
Post by: Anonymous on September 05, 2005, 04:50:00 PM
Are you, or are you not, prepared for the followings possible emergency/better-have-your-shit-together scenarios:
Fire: everyone got ladders from their upstairs windows? secondary means of egress? got all the alarms tested to be functional? mounted in the advised locations? fire extinguisher? run-downs with the kids on what to do? how to deal with pets?
BIG fires: are your parts in drought? are you prepared if fire breaks out?
Ice Storm: even those states not prone to much winter run the risk of an ice storm, and please don't think you don't unless you are WAY down south because there is a lot of fluctuation within a century on the weather and freak storms do happen. okay, so ice storm took down the power lines, and no one can get anywhere. got food? got water - think now, if you're on a pump system what happens when the power goes out? got back up cooking plans? got backup heat if your primary source requires electrity - to light the oil furnace even? got plenty of food incl. pet food?
Tornado: shelter? plans for kids and pets? plenty of food & water stored in case things really break down (good advice for many scenarios) ? heat and clothing needs stored?
Nuclear disaster: have you prepared that shelter yet? remember, mass is what you want in between you and the radiation, you want to be able to live in there for a goodly while if necessary, societal support WILL break down in this scenario, be prepared with PLENTY. don't forget can openers, don't forget to wrap a radio or two and batteries in something that will shield them from the radiation blast.
Evacuation: if for whatever reason you must evacuate, say the Antarctic ice shelf slides off and raises the sea level, or there is a hurricane headed your way, are you prepared to leave with necessities already organized and kids and pets safe?
Earthquake: what have you been putting off that you know you need to do to prepare for this? Earthquakes can cause all kinds of havoc with roads destroyed, fires, hazardous spills, broken glass and so on. are you ready?
Communities: who is going to need help evacuating, who are the senior citizens, how are you going to help people without cars in an evacuation?
I am not a church-going person, however, I can see the churches taking an interest in getting some of this solved for their community BEFORE the next disaster strikes.
Addendum: We pay godamn plenty in taxes. And yet the status quo remains that there are poor poor areas, the supposed benefit of taxes like education and transportation is NOT making into certain communities, keeping them poor. I wish we would depend less on government, that faceless bureaucracy, and more on communities working together to solve problems and plan for worst-case scenarios. Everyone in that city who hired someone to run the cash register, or vacuum the hotel rooms and paid them just enough to keep on living in the poor and neglected sections, they ought to feel responsible, at the very LEAST, for ensuring the safe departure of these underpaid and undervalued fellow persons.
Post by: Antigen on September 05, 2005, 04:58:00 PM
But are all of you prepared for it to all go away? It's really quite frail. In order to have net access, we have to have phone lines and/or satelite connections, electricity, climate control, spare time and, most importantly, disposable income to support our own personall connections. When (not if) a significant number of us can no longer afford those frills, the little isp will fold, be bought out by the bigger, more concentrated, multinational corporations. Then it will be their game entirely.
I'll miss having regular contact w/ the whole motley mob of yenz. I'm savoring every month and year that's left. I hope ya'll focus on those segments of Cyberia that can best benefit yourselves and your loved ones and communities. I think it won't be long now before net access is a luxury few can afford. And at exactly that point, it'll lose it's intrinsic value and go the way of disco in the very early `80's.
That's just my prediction. I could be way off. But that's what I'm planning on (and, to a large degree, why I've never invested much long term faith in it.)
If you believe that people cannot be trusted to govern themselves,
then can they be trusted to govern others?
--Thomas Jefferson
Post by: Anonymous on September 05, 2005, 06:35:00 PM
Post by: Nonconformistlaw on September 05, 2005, 09:43:00 PM
Post by: dragonfly on September 06, 2005, 12:09:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on September 06, 2005, 12:23:00 PM
Quote
But then again you never know, Jesus could come and save us, at least us down here in the Bible Belt.
dangerous thinking... we got to take care of ourselves and stop thinking theres some dude in the sky watching out for us. once we realize we only get one shot at life, we'd probably stop killing ourselves and what not.
Post by: Nonconformistlaw on September 06, 2005, 12:44:00 PM
I really think life will get very, very ugly before it ever gets better. And I think NWO is only part of what's in store. :scared:
Let's just say, aside from the human tragedy, I take 911 and recently, the NO disaster as a very loud wake up call to prepare myself for darker times.
Post by: Anonymous on September 06, 2005, 12:51:00 PM
In the aftermath of Katrina it's common for people to have great difficuly getting there heads around the damage and quick desinigration of society. But could you imagine nuke devices going off in 10 different cities at the same time? I can't. The only plan I can come up with is to leave the country imediatly after an event like that if it were to happen. The following is just one link. I know the world net daily is not liked by some. But search out the terms and people talking here and it will surprise you.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic ... E_ID=46127 (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46127)
Post by: Anonymous on September 06, 2005, 01:05:00 PM
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/article ... 1030.shtml (http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/7/15/01030.shtml)
Post by: Antigen on September 06, 2005, 02:13:00 PM
Look at the way the Amish live or even some of those hold out farm communities (not located in the dust bowl). One reason why I moved my family to the edge of Apalachia is because those living arts are still at least on life support here. I would guess that somewhere around 1% of 2nd and 3rd class city dwellers still keep yearly truck gardens sufficient for a good chunk of their own families' needs. And they save seed. Then there are the family farmers who make a living from farmers' markets, flea markets and a little bit of wholesaling to the grocery stores. So, given a couple of years to gear up and the will to do so, we could, in practical terms, lose our imported food supply lines and never really miss them. Everyone would be employed because there would just be more work to be done. And I just can't imagine any of the stupid petty shit continuing on, like requirements for Ag Dept licensing, quotas and other regulation. So, basically, anybody who wants to plow a spot or provide any other needed service could do so. There's also a reasonable amount of practical knowledge regarding folk medicine. I'm betting that the trade off between modern medical miracles and modern medical fuckups and side effects would be about a zero sum gambit. So no net loss there either.
Shit, if the Quakers can do it, so can the rest of us. It's just a matter of whether or not most people would waste a lot of years yearning for the good old days or whether they'd embrace the new old fashioned lifestyles.
Bottom line, as I see it, is that there hasn't been a single thing invented or built in the past 100 years that mankind can't do very well without. So what's the big deal, really, if we get set back 100 years technologically? I just don't see that as a major problem.
so long as the priest, that professional negator, slanderer and poisoner of life, is regarded as a superior type of human being, there cannot be any answer to the question: What is truth?
--Freidrich Nietzsche, German philosopher
Post by: Antigen on September 06, 2005, 02:34:00 PM
No more sulphur dioxide belching out of the coke and electrical plants throughout the country. Certainly, that alone would improve the overall health and life expectancy of many of the poor living close to these operations.
No more large mining operations pouring heavy metals into our rivers. I wonder how long it would take the Mon, Allagheny and the Ohio to heal once the supply of toxic waste were cut off?
Just imagine the dark and quiet..... ahhhhhh! I don't know about yenz, but I just LOVE me a good long power failure! Give me a couple of days a year w/ starlight instead of street lights, real conversation instead of TV, reading aloud by candle light. Something by Edgar A. Poe, perhaps, tossed into the mix just for kicks. No whining fans and air conditioners. Now, extend that to permanent status. The sound of a car or truck coming down the road could be heard for miles and would be a welcome diversion; harbinger of news from afar... completely different from the constant drone and cross moods we now associate w/ traffic and rush hour.
Not saying that I hope these things will happen. Any kind of shakeup on this order of magnitude will, certainly, cost lives and lifestyles and make many others just very uncomfortable. But, inasmuch as I believe it's practically inevitable, why not turn our minds and hands to enjoying it as much as possible?
As a rule, children love their parents, believe what they teach, and take great pride in saying that the religion of mother is good enough for them.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer
Post by: Anonymous on September 06, 2005, 02:39:00 PM
If you think about the ramifications of an event in 10 cities and how it would unfold, it's staggering to contemplate.
First of all there would be the mass Exodus from all of the major cities affected. I'm talking a running Exodus. If you stay, you die. I mean everyone. Police and officials included.
Everything would shut down almost over night from coast to coast. The fall out from these events would prevent any rescue. You would literally be on your own. And I'm not talking 1 week like in Katrina. I'm talking for months or years. There will be no water coming. There will be no MRE's for food. There will be just a mass Exodus.
Society as we know it would implode.
All of a sudden the mountains you live in for seclusion will be sought out. You will have quite a few new people milling about your town.
I still think the safest bet in a total meltdown would be to leave the country.
I hope I'm wrong all all this.........
Post by: Anonymous on September 06, 2005, 03:22:00 PM
Hope you have enough food on hand.
I'd say LOL but this is no laughing matter.
I can't get my head around it and I doubt our government is planning on saving all of us. So the piture I'm painting is bleak.
I still say leaving the country is the best bet. I would imagine you would see a mass exidous to Canada and Mexico don't you think?
Post by: Nonconformistlaw on September 06, 2005, 03:31:00 PM
I wish to god people wouldnt die in the process of a huge shake up...but I really think its inevitible...
And anon I am with you...I could survive in a cave if I had to...one of the oddest benefits of being in straight that I learned that if I can survive that I can survive anything.
And anon's scenario is possible in my mind --- but imagine a combination of a few strategic terrorist attacks close in time to a couple disasters like Katrina----I think Katrina's aftermath is a very big clue as to how fragile this country really is.
Post by: Anonymous on September 06, 2005, 03:42:00 PM
Ginger start the Barbie............
Damn what wild times we live in eh?
Now remember our own officials say when not if? This is very fucked up don't you think?
They are saying it "IS" going to happen. This is a very probable reality.
Sick stuff my friends.
Post by: Anonymous on September 06, 2005, 03:48:00 PM
And again I hope I'm wrong but when the establishment says "When it happens", it's time to take heed.
Post by: Anonymous on September 06, 2005, 03:59:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-06 11:34:00, Antigen wrote:
I don't know about yenz, but I just LOVE me a good long power failure!
Speak for yourself---personally, I like grow lights and stereos crankin' the drug rock ("Is that Drug Rock, Man?" "Yeah!" "Well, TURN IT UP!!!!!"). Plus, it's a real bitch to shoot up by candle light.....
Post by: Antigen on September 06, 2005, 04:19:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-06 11:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
I lived on a farm before and know exactly what your talking about. Given time and water I could definitely survive. I am quite keen on living off the land. However this situation that I posted about would not allow me the luxury of time to farm the land.
Right. So maybe we ought to start tilling our Victory Gardens now?
As to the relative danger of lawless people, well we have that now, don't we? Aren't we all sitting here discussing the very real eventuality of a pissed off gang based on the other side of the planet fucking up our collective suburban daydream?
But yeah, get a gun and some practice and give some real, dedicated fore thought to when and how you'd actually use it if you had to. That's another nice thing about this area; hunting is a favorite passtime. And there are a lot of bikers. Just being armed doesn't give a bad guy any particular advantage. Whoever they might want to shove around might well be armed just as well or better or near and dear to some biker or hunter who is. SW PA would DEFINITELY be a bad place for some hapless looter to try and ply their game!
I wish, though, that my family could get along well enough to have done something w/ that land we inherited. We had about 15 acres of good hay or corn land and plenty of good hunting and seasonal forrage. I'd be surprised if my dear sister has even bothered to make sure it's mowed for the sake of the neighbors. And there's a good chance my psycho brother is up there drunk as hell and/or tweakin', so it's not a safe place to go as Dad had intended it to be. So sad.
But, wtf, there's lots of other land and the psycho brother has to kick off sometime. Maybe we will make it up there and do something worthwhile with it. Who knows?
Everybody's lost just waiting to be found. Everyone's a thought just waiting to fade.
-- Billy Corgan of The Smashing Pumpkins
Post by: Anonymous on September 06, 2005, 04:26:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-06 09:09:00, dragonfly
Or maybe stock up on groceries"
It's much more important to stock up on drugs and ammunition.
Post by: Anonymous on September 06, 2005, 04:45:00 PM
Time will tell,
Post by: Nonconformistlaw on September 06, 2005, 05:00:00 PM
I wasnt being very clear was I? I was only talking about a portion of what I think will ultimately happen....and I dont think running to another country will help...I dont think the US is the only country headed for trouble. Personally, I thinks its probably going to be a more widespread upheaval.
Acutally, I have a grasp on the danger...I see it as a mixture of being on the run, laying low, hiding, and very dangerous stituations....I do think eventually the chaos and danger will pass and I dont know how long that will take...basically I think first the destruction, however it may play out, then the chaos and danger you just mentioned with more destruction in the mix - essentialy survival of the fittest at its ugliest, then NWO "restores order", then those of us who refuse to comply are still on the run and in danger, until finally something destroys (what, I dont know) the NWO, then LAST...the peace and quite I was talking about in a very different and simpler world.
But unfortunately to get that quiet peaceful life, only complete upheaval will ultimately bring it about...our world is way too screwed up in so many ways for anything less to shake things up.
Post by: Nonconformistlaw on September 06, 2005, 05:09:00 PM
One one disagreement---the entire world will one way or another be involved...if all hell breaks lose here, the US government will unleash unimaginable attacks on whoever attacks us...and then there will be no end to it...nukes dont even have to be involved for it to get out of hand very quickly. Although I dont doubt nukes will get used here and there.
Look at how much vengance the US govt. unleased on Afghanistan and Iraq over one attack 9/11? Yeah, life as we know it will be permanently altered....the only question is when....and how each of us will manage to survive it. I have every intention of surviving...I want the peace and quiet when the "smoke finally clears" damn it!
Post by: Anonymous on September 06, 2005, 10:56:00 PM
an end to punishment. we can't keep treating everyone this way, locking people up, killing people, neglecting people. bring the wealthy barons to their knees. stop buying their stuff.
i am saying, maybe we have choices here, to take a new road. open up the communication. i emailed an old friend from college to connect with those people again, get some email round tables going. open up and talk to a cop this weekend. call an FBI agent and talk to them about how afraid people are becoming of the government. ask them to commit to stand by you and your community in the event the country should turn to tyranny. talk to your town about what people plan for a possible catastrophe in your area. talk to them about sending a message from your whole town to end the war. 10,000 or more people lost their lives to the hurricane. it looks clear that the levees were neglected, and the planning, money and troops that would have saved many lives were not here because of the war. we must respond to this tragedy, and deal with the poverty the hurricane revealed.
Post by: Antigen on September 07, 2005, 01:17:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-06 19:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
it looks clear that the levees were neglected, and the planning, money and troops that would have saved many lives were not here because of the war. we must respond to this tragedy, and deal with the poverty the hurricane revealed.
Well, just look at who's in charge. These people are not just mean and greedy. They're dangerously unbalanced. They honestly believe it's more important to surveil our back yards and deploy ninja clad SWAT teams to keep us safe from Cannabis than to worry about those damned old failing levies.
We have the same exact problem here. Our dam systems are notoriously failing. And yet, rather than dedicate the funding to fix them, we're instituting an area drug taskforce on the same fucked up model that's blown up in Texas in recent years. Never mind even kicking down big bags of cash from on high, either. We could generate plenty of funding if we were to do what they're doing in NOLA now; suspend all the stupid, protectionist laws and regulations that have chased away the commerce and economic health that a free market would use to maintain that needed infrastructure.
I think this storm has revealed for us a lot more than just the seedy side of NOLA's economy. Hopefully, the media will not go back to sleep, but will pursue these important issues till the crazy bastards either give up and go into hiding or are confined to rubber rooms where they belong.
The graduate with a Science degree asks, "Why does it work?"
The graduate with an Engineering degree asks, "How does it work?"
The graduate with an Accounting degree asks, "How much will it cost?"
The graduate with a Liberal Arts degree asks, "Do you want fries with that?"
--Anonymous
Post by: Anonymous on September 07, 2005, 03:31:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on September 07, 2005, 04:13:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on September 07, 2005, 09:52:00 PM
http://gnn.tv/videos/37/NEW_Taliban_Country (http://gnn.tv/videos/37/NEW_Taliban_Country)
You won't see films like this on 60 minutes.
Post by: Anonymous on September 07, 2005, 10:41:00 PM
Once I had a close friend
I knew him for quite a while
He seemed alright to me
We had this deal together
Tied up my money and time
And then he went away
Taking all that was mine
Oh, well, things crumble to an end
Hell, we all die in the end
Die in the end
Once it was fun to worry
About who was in control
Could look into the future
But now it don't seem right
Passion is filling the air
Profits are better than life
And things are harder to bear
Once I had a lover
I knew her for quite a while
She seemed alright to me
But then she was gone
She took my lovin' and time
Taking all that was mine
And leaving me far behind
It's a dead end
Dead end
Dead end
Post by: Anonymous on September 07, 2005, 10:46:00 PM
U.S. Domestic Effort Is Big Shift for Military
http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2005/No ... 8aug05.htm (http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2005/Northcom-Domestic-Military8aug05.htm)
Post by: Anonymous on September 08, 2005, 05:15:00 PM
The above quote is from the following:
http://www.pureenergysystems.com/news/2 ... index.html (http://www.pureenergysystems.com/news/2005/09/06/9600160_Weather_Modification/index.html)
Post by: Antigen on September 08, 2005, 07:28:00 PM
How about a reexamination of old tech?
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/ ... ?page=full (http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2005/09/04/native_ingenuity/?page=full)
For the most part we inherit our opinions. We are the heirs of habits and mental customs. Our beliefs, like the fashion of our garments, depend on where we were born. We are molded and fashioned by our surroundings.
--Environment is a sculptor -- a painter.
Post by: Anonymous on September 10, 2005, 11:13:00 AM