Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: starry-eyed pirate on August 31, 2005, 03:16:00 PM
-
i am wonderin' about some of the differences between the Seed and Str8. Like on that "How many made it" thread this cat, Stripe says he graduated from the Seed in the "requisite 90 days". Was the Seed only a 90 day program ?? If so howcome so many Seedlings seemed to spend years in the program ?? Is this because they went on to become staff members or what ?? The avg. length of a program at Str8 was 12 months.
i don't know but i have the feelin' that The Seed was in some ways, somehow less harsh than Str8. Did the Seed and Str8 share all the same rules ?? Were there "misbahavers" at the Seed and if so how were they dealt with ?? Were they put on consequences like military showers and sleep deprivation(only 3 hrs. of sleep per night) ?? Did the Seed have 5 phases like Str8 ??
At Str8 newcomers were in group every day. Mon. Tues. Thurs. and Sat. newcomers were in group for about 12 hrs. On Sundays newcomers could sleep in a little and there was usually a good and hearty breakfast at the host-home. On Sundays the building didn't open until like 2p.m. On Wednesdays we were dismissed from the building by 8p.m. which was earlier than the rest of the week, and there would usually be a nice dinner upon arrival at the host-home. Was the Seed organized in a simillar way ??
i am just trying to see how Str8 evolved out of the Seed. What were the simillarities ?? What were the differences ?? How is it that the Seed seems to have been a friendlier place ??
i know i am asking a lot of questions but i am struggelin' to understand what happened to me in Str8. Any insight that anyone can provide is an immense help to me. i thank you in advance.
Peace.
-
In the last 10 or so years it was from 10am to 5:00pm. No sleep deprivation at all ever or food depravation. :grin: Everyone that I ever knew gained anywhere from 20 to 30 lbs. No Sat or Sun. Beach, Vollyball, Softball, Football and Golf Movies ect. Sat & Sun. Years ago the Seed went 10 till 10 then 10 till 8 then 10 till about 5. When the numbers (Of people on the program) were not as many the times changed. The basic rules were probably the same, I think. :grin:
-
What are military Showers?
-
On 2005-08-31 12:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
"What are military Showers?"
Military showers were one of the many consequences given to misbehavers; 30 seconds with the water on, 30 seconds to soap up and then 30 seconds to rinse and that was it.
Were there ever any misbehavers in the Seed ?? Were clients held there by force ??
-
I'm another Anon, but there were no Military Showers. From what I have read about Straight it sounded different in alot of ways. I am glad I did not go there. I really liked my time at the Seed and spent most of my life there until it closed. For me I felt like everytime I went there I learned alot and grew so much as a person. I know not everyone felt as I did but I truly loved the Seed and still treasure my memories. Unfortunately, a few people had to destroy what I feel was truly beautiful. I know it was not perfect but I feel the good outweighted the bad. It was just some people that I think thought they were better than everyone else and I feel money became as issue and selfishness. That's my opinion.
-
For about the last 10 years or so 18yrs and over.
No misbehavers. You havd to want to be there or you could just leave.
-
Were there ever any misbehavers in the Seed ?? Were clients kept there by force ?? Were clients ever restrained ??
-
On 2005-08-31 12:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"For about the last 10 years or so 18yrs and over.
No misbehavers. You havd to want to be there or you could just leave. "
So participation in the Seed was voluntary ?? Anyone who wanted to leave the program could jus' leave ??
-
The seed didn't want to stay in St. Pete for a number of reasons. So...a few parents of the Seed thought they could start a program like the seed -without the seed's consent. Thats about all I know. I have always heard that Straight was much harsher. Ask Antigen she went to straight, plus she seems to know it all anyway. :grin:
-
Yep. They could just leave. :grin:
-
Fuck, this is openin' my eyes. If the Seed was a voluntary program then no one was there who didn't want to be there and so it makes sense to me now that some former seedlings have expressed gratitude and have fond memories. At str8, if you were under 18, which nearly all clients were you had no rights. You were held against your will indefinately. If you refused to comply with the rules you were made to suffer to the point of bein' psychologically traumatized. The difference between a voluntary participation and a forced incarceration is the difference between freedom and oppression, like the difference between consentual sex and a violent rape.
i am grateful for your responses to my questions. Thankyou. i am hungry for more information about the Seed. Please tell me anything else about the Seed that you think would help me understand the history of the relationship between the Seed and str8.
Peace.
-
How old are you now? & how old wereyou when in str8?
-
i'm 37 now. i was 16 when i went into str8(springfield, VA). i was in the program for 23 months + 6 months of aftercare. i copped out(ran away) from the program 4 times and was finally court ordered becuase on my 4th cop-out i stole a truck with my host bro who copped out with me and we drove it to N.J. to try and get as far away from str8 as we could. After my arrest i was returned to str8 under a suspended 1 year jail sentence. Which meant if i failed to complete the program i would have to serve 1 year in jail.
-
Did you ever like str8 at all? Were there any good things about it? Like kindness or goodness at all?
-
Pirate, our anon here is a little foggy on the details. The Seed wasn't voluntary at all when it started out.
I don't remember the doors and windows being locked at our house. But then we only had newcomers a few times and briefely at that. Others from the same time (`72 - `74 and `78 or so) do remember locked foster homes. And I remember hearing about oldcomers and oldtimers going out and tracking down splits, just like the goon squads of Straight. They still do that, btw, at GT, KHK and SAFE. They're just ever so careful to pretend it was all the kids and parents' idea, nothing to do at all w/ staff.
I've also heard from a few ppl now who were court ordered by program friendly judges or lied to so they thought (some for years) that they had been court ordered. There was even an arrangement w/ the police to allow Seed staff to confiscate and hold illegal drugs and pipes and such found on newcomers or in their homes by their parents. These items were sometimes used to blackmail the kids. And there's a story on Wes' site from a guy who claims they used someone else's stash to blackmail him.
However, I have to agree that Straight was more strident and more punitive than The Seed in Ft. Lauderdale. But I don't believe it was due to rebellious parents any more than I believe the one about the 16yo rich girl w/ a $1k/dy h habit.
Anyway, from all I hear about The Seed after they lost NIDA funding and Bobby DoPont and his cronnies turned their hands to the Straight cause, involvement was as voluntary as any other cult. Sure, you could leave at any time. But ask anyone who left after a couple of years what that was like. Or just read what some of those people have already posted about that.
If we had been born in Constantinople, then most of us would have said: "There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet." If our parents had lived on the banks of the Ganges, we would have been worshipers of Siva, longing for the heaven of Nirvana.
--
-
See, I told you Antigen knows all. The almighty powferful wizard of fornits. All knowing ::bigmouth:: ::bigmouth:: ::bigmouth:: ::bigmouth::
-
OHHHHH ANNNTTTIGEEEENNNN... ::bigsmilebounce:: ::bigsmilebounce:: ::bigsmilebounce:: ::bigsmilebounce:: ::bigsmilebounce::
-
Almost a 21 butt salute. :grin:
-
I'm a little foggy according to her :silly: only she sees things correctly and CLEARLY...
The almighty one. Do your kids have to say "Yes, Mother dear? :grin:
-
On 2005-08-31 13:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Did you ever like str8 at all? Were there any good things about it? Like kindness or goodness at all?"
Well this is a tricky question to anwer. i got myself into a ton of trouble over on the str8 survivors forum for even suggestin' that i learned something from my experience in str8. If you want to know what i think about whether or not there was anything good about str8 read the "Does Anyone Remember Str8 With Any Fondness"** thread over on the survivors forum(maybe that was even you that started that volitile discussion). i would post the link here but i don't quite know how to do all that technical kind of stuff yet.
There were some moments of goodness and kindness but i don't think much of it was genuine. Pretty much str8 was a devastating ordeal to live through.
Read that thread i referenced, i think you will find it quite interesting. Right now (9/01/05) it's on the 3rd page of the survivors forum.
**correction
-
At least I'm having fun with this.
-
On 2005-08-31 13:30:00, Antigen wrote:
"Pirate, our anon here is a little foggy on the details. The Seed wasn't voluntary at all when it started out.
I don't remember the doors and windows being locked at our house. But then we only had newcomers a few times and briefely at that. Others from the same time (`72 - `74 and `78 or so) do remember locked foster homes. And I remember hearing about oldcomers and oldtimers going out and tracking down splits, just like the goon squads of Straight. They still do that, btw, at GT, KHK and SAFE. They're just ever so careful to pretend it was all the kids and parents' idea, nothing to do at all w/ staff.
I've also heard from a few ppl now who were court ordered by program friendly judges or lied to so they thought (some for years) that they had been court ordered. There was even an arrangement w/ the police to allow Seed staff to confiscate and hold illegal drugs and pipes and such found on newcomers or in their homes by their parents. These items were sometimes used to blackmail the kids. And there's a story on Wes' site from a guy who claims they used someone else's stash to blackmail him.
However, I have to agree that Straight was more strident and more punitive than The Seed in Ft. Lauderdale. But I don't believe it was due to rebellious parents any more than I believe the one about the 16yo rich girl w/ a $1k/dy h habit.
Anyway, from all I hear about The Seed after they lost NIDA funding and Bobby DoPont and his cronnies turned their hands to the Straight cause, involvement was as voluntary as any other cult. Sure, you could leave at any time. But ask anyone who left after a couple of years what that was like. Or just read what some of those people have already posted about that.
If we had been born in Constantinople, then most of us would have said: "There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet." If our parents had lived on the banks of the Ganges, we would have been worshipers of Siva, longing for the heaven of Nirvana.
--
"
Thanks for the perspective Ant. What year did the Seed start and what year did it become strictly voluntary ?? What brought this change about ??
-
On 2005-08-31 13:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I'm a little foggy according to her :silly: only she sees things correctly and CLEARLY...
The almighty one. Do your kids have to say "Yes, Mother dear? :grin: "
Well, it helps if you take the time to read up on the history. It's not like it's all classified, secret stuff. Just the public record stuff that's available on the net will do.
Remember not so long ago you said (and I'm sure you believed) that Art never accepted federal funding? But he did. You were there then. Even as a little kid, I remember the public and private talk about it after the Ervin report came out. Did you read the Ervin report or any of the news articles of the time about it? Or were you not allowed to read things like that? You can now, you know. You won't even be confronted for it."The Libertarian Party is a coalition of those who hold dear the economic freedoms championed by conservatives, yet abandoned by Republicans, and the civil freedoms championed by liberals, yet abandoned by Democrats."
--Rick Root
-
How can you possibly say the Seed was voluntary? You know damned well you tracked down splits and kidnapped them off the street. You personally, man! Not some theoretical other Seedlings. You were right there in the thick of it.
It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.
Thomas Jefferson
-
For those over 18 y.o., The Seed was voluntary unless court ordered. Those under 18 y.o. required parental consent, with or without court order. Many were there involuntarily, but despite what one might infer from reading the posts here, (though the involuntary were a large number), these were still a minority. (The squeaky wheel does get the most attention)
As to Seed v. Straight, there (obviously) were numerous commonalities as Straight attempted to institute their version of The Seed, but to categorize them as being the same is ludicrous. Excluding individual anomalies, i.e. bad people, (which occur everywhere and in everything), this would be exactly analogous to stating that the practice of Salafi or Wahhabi is the same as Sunni or ShiÌa because both cite and use the Koran as the basis of their beliefs and practices. Just as in this case, it is the differences in application that are the most defining, not the commonalities.
By keeping in mind that haters practice hate, and that vendetta can be intoxicating, much can be both extrapolated and intuited from what you read here.
P.S.
For those of you enamored with using other people?s quotes, here?s one that?s conspicuous by it?s absence. - ?To understand all, is to forgive all.? - Socrates.
-
Antigen said...Finally, anon, wtf do you mean I'm in denial? Denial of what? Who are you and what makes you think you know anything true about me, aside from what I've said myself? Are you kin to me? Cause I haven't talked to, far less spent time w/, any of my own family of origin in a number of years. I know they've got plenty to say about me, but they never have bothered to get to know me in real life. It's all just gossip.
I suspected it was all about your family, and the above statement explains it all to me right there.
I'm sorry that your family won't bother to have anything to do with you. I'm sorry that this site has to fill the void for you. Maybe you should take your energies and reach out to them, its not too late. It never is. Just maybe Socrates knew what he was talking about.
I refuse to argue with you any longer. The Seed was not perfect but it did a hell of alot of good.
I do wish you the best, and hope you find the love and knowledge to move on.[ This Message was edited by: Ft. Lauderdale on 2005-09-01 05:32 ]
-
The seed I knew as a child was never voluntary. They coerced you after hours of badgering and lying to you to "sign yourself in just to see if you like it and then leave if you want to after three days " then threatened you with a "court order" and increased time if you tried to leave. If you ran for the door, they threw you to the concrete and piled on you.
Very very few of the thousands of Children commited there actually signed themselves in.
Voluntary...?
What a crock of shit!!!
-
So the Seed it seems was an involuntary program that apparently became strictly voluntary at some point ?? How and when did this change occur ?? If the Seed was involuntary then wern't there misbehavers protesting their captivity ?? What, specifically, made the Seed less harsh than str8 ?? How is it that so many Seedlings(not all, i know) seem to have some kind of gratitude for their program, when so many Str8lings are so bitter and scarred ?? i know i am askin' alot of questions, and some may be unanswerable, but the more understandin' i have the more peace i find. Thanx.
Peace.
-
Lauderdale, you're right. My biggest problem w/ The Seed and all the rest of the Synanon based programs is what they do to families. It's the same old scam as any other cult; they market to people who are in distress to the point of desperation and they make slaves of them.
I wish I had some voids in my life. Maybe when this littlest one gets a little older. But, of course, by then I'll probably have added "grandma" to my collection of hats.
I do have a sustained and avid interest in the topic of coerced thought reform. The primary impetus driving that interest has to do with how the industry effects the world my kids and, eventually, grand kids will inherit from us.
John, thanks for posting again and for being as straight about it as you can. Forgiveness is devine. Forgetfulness is just a mental dysfunction.
Jails and prisons are the complement of schools; so many less as you have of the latter, so many more you must have of the former
--Horace Mann
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;
-
I went into the Seed involuntarily and I am grateful I did. I knew I needed help desperately but would never have gotten it if not for the Seed. All of my family had been in institutions and had problems. I was definately on my way there.
I never had anyone treat me badly. I was only treated w/ love and compassion. Maybe I feel different about it because I needed the help where some like Greg felt he did not need the help. I can only speak for the Seed in Ft. Lauderdale. I don't know how the other Seeds were.
And as far as family's - my mother was very vengeful and hated the Seed with a passion. They never told me to have nothing to do with her. Even when she was on her dying bed they wanted me to do the whatever I could for her. And you know what - She told me she was glad that I went into the Seed and that it changed my life for the best. She made everything right between us before she left.
As I said before I dearly loved the Seed with all my heart and wanted to be there through all of the years.
Antigen - you must speak for yourself. I know you did not go to the Seed and maybe Straight messed you up but not all of us feel the way you do. I am not blind and know how I feel in my heart. It always tells me the truth.
-
After re-reading my post above. I meant to say the Seed never told me to not have anything to do w/ my mom. That was always my decision what I wanted to do.....
-
I believe I do practice love. To understand is to forgive; but getting to understanding may take a long, long time. I am still working on Hitler...
(Sort of a joke)
Art Barker and The Seed gave me many powerful experiences and memories, but I have to say, on balance for me, it was a net loss of freedom, personal power and ability to choose to live my life as I wanted to. But I will be generous and say that it also gave me a lot, most of which (friends, answers, and purpose) I lost when I left and had to re-find and define. I would avoid putting my own child in a similar coercive environment. My own family was massively disfunctional at that point and it was ineveitable that I would have to thrash around somewhere. It happened to be the Seed.
I do feel love for all of the pro-, con- and ambiguous former Seedlings. But I would oppose further Seeds all the same.
Walter
-
On 2005-09-01 13:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
Antigen - you must speak for yourself. I know you did not go to the Seed and maybe Straight messed you up but not all of us feel the way you do. I am not blind and know how I feel in my heart. It always tells me the truth.
Nope, it didn't start w/ Straight. You know damned well how immersed my mother was in The Seed and how much that must have effected me. The only kid in my neighborhood or school who was allowed to (or wanted to) hang around w/ me after my mom started her second round of recruiting was the other Seedling. That included my best friend and everyone else. I lived like an animal on display from about the time I was 8 or so.
Remember yesterday when you were (maybe seriously) wondering why I get under your skin so much? Well, I wasn't the least bit surprised by the way you treat me. That's exactly the way Program people were trained to treat rebellious newcomers or olddruggiefriends. I even used to say those same spiteful things to misbehavers and recaptured splits in group in Sarasota.
See, I had had 10 years to study the whole thing before I landed up on front row. I was a damned vet at playing the game. So it didn't effect me so much as it did some people. I didn't internalize it. I was able to be a little objective and dispassionate; even to the point of occasionally taking the chance of cluing in a newcomer who was cracking under the pressur; "Just say what they want to hear, it'll all be over soon, don't take any of this too seriously, it's all theatre".
If life were fair, Dan Quayle would be making a living asking 'Do you want fries with that?'
John Cleese
-
What do you mean anyone could just leave?? Not when I was in the seed in '73. If someone tried to leave they were wrestled to the ground. I did that to one of my newcomers. Thank God she had long hair. I threw off my shoes, took off running after her, grabbed her long hair, and body slammed her to the ground. Then she was started over. My old boyfriend came in to get me out. He threw a chair across the room, and spilt that night. If you were in there on your own it was a shorter time. Court ordered(phoney) as I was was, 30 days away from home. 10 1/2 months later I was an old timer. 2 meetings later I just quit going.
-
Amen John! I was court ordered(not one offense against me) but my intake person(can't remember her name right now Mrs?) said if i didn't sign the papers I would go to jail. Yeah right!! She told me St.PBCH, T.I, Seminole, and Pass-a-grill cops knew all about my drug dealings. Another yeah right!! :lol:
Anyhoo, I agree with your quote. Some of you here who have to rant and rag on John need to let go and forgive, if that's the problem with you. John just did what he thought was right, under the direction of Art. Leave him alone!!
Julie
-
Ok, but please take a moment to consider what you read w/ your own eyes over how someone else characterizes things. Who's really beating hell out of John here? I've seen some questionsand some challenges to some of his assertions, but nowhere near the bashing one might expect. Shit, not half, by far, what I take just about always, and I host the damned site. :rofl:
Bureaucracy defends the status quo long past the time when the quo has lost its status
--Laurence J. Peter
-
On 2005-09-01 18:27:00, Antigen wrote:...Shit, not half, by far, what I take just about always, and I host the damned site. :rofl:
Yeah, but you BEG for it - John doesn't :roll:
-
...uhh...so i'm still pretty confused. Maybe i should jus' ask 1 question at a time. How long was the avg. program at the Seed ??
-
To acess fairly what happened, yes John did get beat on a bit after he posted. I wish it didn't happen. Also, people quesioned and challenged his post in what I feel is in an appropriate manner.
As far as being 18 and being able to leave...I will just tell you my personal story.
My stepbrother was 18. Mrs. Peterman told him he could sign himself in for three days and then if he didn't like it, he could leave. I came onto the front row on his third day and they sat me three people down from him. I leaned all the way forward and said to him, "this sucks man". He said, "it sures does, Im outta here". Now, keep in mind he was a shy polite kid. He politely raised his hand, a junior staff member came over to him on the front row, and he said "Im ready to leave, my three days are up". The junior staff member started laughing. About 10 minutes later, they stood him up and chewed him out.
He got out...but it was 6 months later.
The notion that you could leave is an utter fantasy.
I myself participated in several "take downs", one of which resulted in a kid being thrown to the concrete and bloody. Another got piled onto in my front lawn by several old comers. There are more instances but in actuality, anyone making the claim that the seed was voluntary for anyone in the early 70s is just masturbating their own memory.
-
I came in voluntarily. I was a senior in high school. I never jumped anyone.
Antigen, cool your jets you are confusing Anonymous postings.
1) I'm not the only sometimes wise ass poster here. There are a few.
2) You keep answering back to me when I'm not the poster.
3) As far as crude and rude, please reexamine some of your own posts.
I have a question or two for you Antigen. Do your kids sufer from your involvement with this site and all the others you post on? Do your older ones think your crazy for what you do?
Do the older ones smoke pot? Do you? Do you condone minors using drugs?
-
I never knew your mother. Although others have told me she was a real nice lady. (that was not my post either)
-
Lauderdale, those are really insulting, loaded questions. I guess you don't even know you're doing it, huh? Then again, you're not stupid, I know that. But then yet again, you spent your entire adult life in a culture where this sort of behavior is perfectly acceptable toward certain people.
Arms in the hands of citizens [may] be used at individual discretion...in private self-defense...
-- John Adams, (1788)
-
Do you really think those are loaded questions? I don't. They are actually really simple questions.
-
Did your condensending attitude come from Seed or Straight or are you just that way by nature? :silly:
-
or was that too much of a loaded question for you?
-
You still beatin' your wife?
You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war.
--Albert Einstein
-
Ok where is the "Greg" moderator when you need one?
-
:roll: nevermind.
-
On 2005-09-01 21:01:00, starry-eyed pirate wrote:
"...uhh...so i'm still pretty confused. Maybe i should jus' ask 1 question at a time. How long was the avg. program at the Seed ??"
Sorry Pirate. I got carried away w/ Lauderdale. Is this really like a prepubescant crush as some have suggested? I do remember he was pretty good looking and all bets were on me to grow up to be a bombshell..... ewwwww! Never mind, sorry! PLEASE don't answer, any of you!
:rofl:
From what I remember from the early daze, ppl who had been in for a year were given due shit for sitting on their asses. By the time I landed up in Straight in `80, a year was pretty normal, but coming up on 18 months was cause for concern. By `83, 2 years was not too unusual, but there was some stigma attached.
Meanwhile, in another galexy not too far away, Seedlings were embarking on decades long family style commitments. And Newton kept some inmates for 5 or 10 or, in one case that I know of, 15 years or more.
But there has always been a distinction between long term staff material and regular, rank-n-file group. One does not have to appeal to God to set the initial conditions for the creation of the universe, but if one does He would have to act through the laws of physics.
--Stephen Hawking, English scientist
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous
-
Anigen said:
"Meanwhile, in another galexy not too far away, Seedlings were embarking on decades long family style commitments. And Newton kept some inmates for 5 or 10 or, in one case that I know of, 15 years or more."
"But there has always been a distinction between long term staff material and regular, rank-n-file group."
Thanks for gettin' back to me Ant but your words are so vague. i need more specific information. What do you mean by "decades long family style committments" and are you tellin' me that this maniac Newton kept people on their phases for 5,10 'n' 15 years. i hope you don't mean that. Or were these phasers who went on to become staff ?? i am very keen to learn all i can about the Seed and its' relationship to Str8.
-
Ft Laud, the question "still beating your wife" is not a reference to you REALLY beating your wife nor is it a personal insult, but rather a call for you to understand the nature of your questions to Ginger that no matter how you answer, you are left looking bad. It is a well defined diversionary technique, not allowed in formal debate.
-
Pirate,
Well that you can read right here. A good many frequent posters to this forum spent 5 or more years as seed 'kids'. I think all the really, really long timers (like decades) were staff, but I could be mistaken.
And yes, Newton kept Lulu Courter on her phases from age 13 to 26 when she finally escaped and went into hiding. Here mother was one of those super program parents, I think she was on staff in some capacity. But Lulu didn't come out of hiding till someone else susscessfully sued Virgil. Can't remember the name of that gal offhand. But I could find it.The Christian faith from the beginning, is sacrifice: the sacrifice of all freedom, all pride, all self-confidence of spirit; it is at the same time subjection, a self-derision, and self-mutilation.
--Freidrich Nietzsche, German philosopher
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous
-
were the kids who were in the seed for 5 years voluntary or involuntary ?? i would be completely insane if i had been kept in str8 for 5 years instead of the partial insanity that resulted from my 2 years of captivity.
i assume that durin' the time when the Seed was an involuntary program that there must have been misbehavers protestin' their captivity. How were these misbehavers dealt with ?? were these misbehavers subjected to the same sleep deprivation that misbehavers in str8 were subjected to(as in the 3hrs. of sleep per night deal) ?? thanx.
-
Yeah, my understanding is that, after they lost the NIDA funding and shut down all but the original Ft. Laud location, it was a lot more voluntary. I can't say from firsthand exp how they dealt w/ misbehavers in group. Sure wish someone who was there would speak up. But I do remember that the usual program was not more than a year or a little more up till at least `74 or so when my youngest brother and sister went in.
Writing about music is like dancing about architecture.
--
-
T'anks Ant. Can anyone who was actually in the Seed during its' time as an involuntary program answer my question about how the misbehavers were dealt with ?? Were they put on "consequences" which would include sleep deprivation, etc. ??
-
yeah starry-eyed one i was there involuntarily and there were no official misbehaviors or official consequences and the only ones i ever saw subjected to sleep deprivation were the staff
-
When I was in the Seed , May 1973-July 1974, we did not have names such as "misbehaviors" assigned to people who did not go with the flow. There was a segment of the people who were over 18 and placed in the Seed by the courts and if they acted up the were threatend with prison and or the group would have a come down session on them.
There also was maybe a loss of priveldges or you could be put back in your program which was called a refresher. Loss of priveledges might include not be able to work or go to school. If you really screwed up they would start you over again. This meant going back on the front row.
For younger people such as myself , age 14-15 at the time, they would bring your parents down and try to get them to beat your ass. Every now and then staff would go off on a real rebelious kid and knock the crap out of them themselves.
The come down sessions were basically feeding frenzy's in which rap leaders, staff members and the rest of the kids would take turns telling you how terrible you were, how lucky you were to be in the seed because if you were "on the streets" you would be dead, ect... The main thing they did was preclude you from advancing in the program, going home, going to school or work or graduating if you didnt go with the flow.
For those who were over 18 and in voluntarily, and I believe this to be less than 10%, during my time period, they could not do shit with. This is because those people could just get up and leave, and many of them did.
You have to keep in mind that the time periods for completing the program were way different than that of Straight. If your parents brought you in or you were there voluntarily you had to be away from home, no communication with the outside world, for a minimum of 14 days. The average for this would probably be around 20-25 days. You would then go on a phase of the program were you either went to work or school, depending on you age, and then came to the Seed everyday after school or work. This phase would usually last 2-3 weeks and then you became an old comer. An old comer had to come in 3 week nights after school and one weekend day. After three months you could apply to graduate. This consited of literally including your name on a sign in sheet and pathetic morons such as John Underwood would determine whether you were ready for the real world. The average for the total program was probably 5-7 months.
For court ordered people, juveniles or adults, the time period was 30 days before you could be considered to go home and at least 6 months as an old comer. the avergae was probably around 10 months.
For those that would not go with the flow they simply kept you in the program longer. I was there for 13 1/2 moths on the 5 month program. It was not unusual to see court ordered people in there for at least a year.
-
O.K. thanks for the perspective but i am still tryin' to understand. Say a kid was under 18 and brought in by his parents. What would happen if he tried to run for a door ?? Would he end up restrained on the floor ?? In Str8 you would end up restrained on the floor as a result of refusin' to sit up str8 in your chair in group. initially someone behind you would jam their knuckles into your spine in an attempt to str8en you up. If you were to resist then inevitably you would be carried over the heads of the phasers in group and thrown on the floor and restrained until you either agreed to comply or were taken to an intake room. Refusal to comply with rules such as: "sit up str8 in your chair", "pay attention to the person talking", and "No talking out out group" all led to restraint and people who rebelled against these rules were called "misbehavers". So my question is were there "misbehavers" in this sense, and if so were they restrained on the floor as a result of their misbehavior ??
i am fascinated by your response. Sorry to be so dogged in my questioning, but i am really lookin' to understand. i am appreciative for the many insightful responses i have recieved so far, but i feel that my question has still not been clearly answered. T'anks
-starry-eyed pirate
-
no, he would be thrown to the floor and piled on by oldcomers and door guards.
The straight took this practice and tried to instituionalize and "improve" it, ala sitting on you instead of just wrestling you down and overpowering you, and then as with all such new and improved synanon techniques, started using it as a punishment. The seed never sat on you as a punishment, but if you ran you got body slammed to the ground, brought back to group, stood up and well...you know the rest.
Pirate, I would suggest you look thru this forum a bit. The answer to most of your questions exists here. Why don't you go ahead and read the forum and come back with any additional questions?
-
Pirate,
If a kid tried to bolt he would get restrained. But not for long periods of time. If you were a little guy like me, the would put a big guy further along in the program and sit you next to them. If you were not paying attention you would get proded and stuff like that from people sitting around you.
Based on what I have read on the Straight board Straight was way more brutal than the Seed.
-
Thanks, that was what i wanted to know.
i have been readin' around on this board some, but there is a lot to look thru.
i'll give ya'll a break now, but i'll be back with more questions after a while. Thanks again and Peace.
-
On 2005-09-04 19:52:00, FueLaw wrote:
Based on what I have read on the Straight board Straight was way more brutal than the Seed. "
That was my sense 20 odd years ago. But now I wonder. First, everybody from St. Pete branch reports that Straight like vibe at least started there. Second, I only assume what went on in group as I only ever saw the inside of the building during open meeting.
Also, we were all told how lucky we were where we were instead of [_any program_] The allegedly tougher program might be The Seed, another Straight location, Synanon or some other. As we from various programs have compared notes over the years, we've found that 1) they were all pretty much the same anyway and that 2) our impression of them has more to do w/ how well we complied internally than anything.
Me? I would never have described Sarasota as a daily horror show as some people seem to believe. And I've never really seen anyone say that it was. Just that some incidents were way ovre the top.
So I don't really know. Was the Seed really less brutal? Was there a huge difference between St. Pete and Lauderdale and Cleveland and the others?
Here's something I've always wondered about. I remember the Miami branch had a fair number of Marrialittos. WTF did they make of the program? Did any of them ever bust out w/ comparisons to Fidel's Patriot boarding schools? Or compare Art to a wannabe Che?
Nothing can be more contrary to religion and the clergy than reason and common sense.
--Francois Marie Arouet "Voltaire", French author and playwright
-
Ginger :
The Mariel boat lift was in 1980 which was about 6 1/2 years after Barker pulled out of Dade County. When I was there , the last few months of Dade, there were not many Cuban's or other Latinos in the program.
As far as the Seed being less brutal, based on what I have read on the Straight board, the accounts of you and many others, I think Straight was way worse. This would be based on the amount of physical and psycological abuse and the length of time spent in the program. Don't get me wrong I am not trying to praise the Seed I just think Straight was even more extreme.
-
I think so too.
I was born a heretic. I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
--Susan B. Anthony, U.S. reformer and suffragist
-
Ginger, I went to the sight about people taking their names off of the graduated numbers from straight. I'll tell you Ginger, I knew straight was worse then the seed for the kids, ie- tv shows,news, newspapers, and then HRS ? closing them down because of abuse claims. Yet, reading what all those people wrote sent chills up my spine. Yes the seed was a rough one, but my God, straight was so much worse. We had hardly any abuse, except for 2 when I was in there (73) by parents whooping their sons. Yes, we were abused mentally, spiritually, and emotionally, but nothing like what you went through in sraight. I have often thought about suing Art Barker, but Betty and Mel need a rude awakening. Guess money has power, and since Bush is a whimp, he can't see the forest through the trees. I am glad you have that site too. It sure opened my eyes to the terror you all went through. I am so sorry you and others here had to suffer so much.
-
On 2005-08-31 13:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Yep. They could just leave. :grin: "
The was voluntary??? Sure. Just walk out. Get tackled and dragged back in. Saw that happen a couple of times. Just try to walk out of an old comers house,if you weren't locked in behind two or three locked doors with sleeping guards.
Does anybody remember any person standing up any saying, "I think I'm gonna leave now?"
A kid could leave but where does a kid end up? On the street - where they have most likely NEVER been before? Parents were told to turn their children away. Break the will or break the family - that's the seed motto. It's completly your choice. Sure...it's completely voluntary.
And again, for those who see it as a blessing, it's another story. If I was only half as fucked- up as the greatful ones, I might have been glad to have the break in reality the seed provided. That's what it was - a break in reality.
But unfortunately, that's just not the case.
-
Well yeah, I'd say some locations and some times in Straight were, by far and away, more physically brutal than The Seed usually was. But I never was all that effected by the physical stuff. It was the mental abuse and the effects that it had on people that always worried me.
That bit about turning families against each other. What a horrible thing to do to anybody! I got a call a few years ago from Bob K's family. After all those years, his family was dealing w/ some important life issues that he really ought to have been a part of. They told me they had called the Seed office, but weren't sure their messages were getting through and they were just grasping at straws, hoping I or someone I knew or anybody could help them make contact w/ Bob.
I don't know of anybody in Straight who gave over their family so completely and so permanently as permanently as that. In that respect, I think the Seed was, by far and away, more adept at mind fucking than Straight ever was.
But the Straight cronnies are still a matter of more concern, imo. They're quite adept at influencing public policy and opinion. Are any of you aware that we're pretty much on the verge of war w/ Venezuela? Any idea why? You'd be surprised how many names of close friends and business associates of the Semblers and Bobby DuPont come up in the last couple of decades of that saga.
That's what concerns me. Not the individual incidents of physical violence, but the profficiency w/ which this cult influences opinion and belief and how adeptly they have managed to appropriate public resources away from worthy threats like major storms to their obsession w/ what can never be; a world free of drugs they don't sell.Web pages are like babies -- creation involves a level of enthusiasm that does not necessarily carry over into maintenance.
--Joe Chew
-
Fuelaw
where can i find this article about you and seed kids being beaten up, when and where was it published, who was the reporter, what was the name of article and in what publication?
-
Since we have so many Seed Testimonials of late, thought I'd post some testimonials from some other programs and groups for comparison:
Mel Sembler defends Straight:
"Responding to years of complaints from former patients, auditors cited evidence of excessive use of force, sleep deprivation, and the withholding of food and medication. Sembler denies any wrongdoing and continues to defend the program's methods, particularly against the criticisms of the St. Petersburg Times editorial board. "People thought we were taking away children's rights. But we saw it just the opposite - giving them back their rights by helping them get off drugs." In 1993, with the allegations surfacing and the program losing about $500,000 a year, Sembler closed Straight. Indeed, he speaks proudly of an ACLU lawsuit filed against Straight's Atlanta affiliate some years ago. "It just shows that we must have been doing things right," he says with a grin. Betty Sembler, herself a veteran activist in many anti-drug causes, labels the center's detractors as misguided. Anyone who fully understands the dangers of drugs, she says, will agree that drastic measures are sometimes needed."
Defenders / members of Narconon (the anti-drug program run by and based upon Scientology):
"Narconon is a very useful program that I have personally seen salvage lives from the gutter".
"Narconon is the only program that, in over 76% of the cases, produces a permanent, verifiable solution to the problem of drug addiction"
"It was the knowledge I gained in Scientology that helped me to quickly stop and realize that going back to marijuana wasn't at all a good idea."
One prison official estimated that heroin use has dropped 80 percent from its former use level since the Narconon program was introduced. And justice officials outside the prison in Ensenada reported that the crime rate in the whole city has significantly dropped. Thus, Narconon has returned to the social environment in which it was founded three decades ago to continue to rescue prisoners from drug-induced oblivion.'