Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => World Wide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools (WWASPS) => Topic started by: jellybean on August 31, 2005, 11:58:00 AM
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Has anybody been to or heard anything about Wisdom Ranch School in Arco, Idaho? Any info would be helpful.
ThanksGive me the youth, and Germany will rule the world.
--Hitler
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Is this a WWASP facility?
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I do not knowif it is or not, sorry
You know, if Mama Cass Elliot would have shared that damn sandwich
with Karen Carpenter, they would both still be alive today!!!!!!!
--chongo
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I think it was started by an ex-SUWS instrucor. It is relatively close to Gooding, Idaho where SUWS is located. I also had a student referred there by an EC. He and his parents flew there, his dad thought it was a big joke and the student didnt enroll there. Dont know much more than that - just the same stuff youd see on their web site.
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I do recall seeing that someone on the staff was affiliated with SUWS. I am wondering what they meant by a big joke. I did notice that it is not a punitive style school where contact is limited and such, but hopefully that doesn't mean something bad. This is a stressful process for a parent to research these schools and I have found some bad info on a lot of them such as Diamond Ranch (ouch)! I haven't been able to find anything adverse on this school and was referred to your site for help.
ThanksAny priest or shaman must be presumed guilty until proven innocent.
--Robert A. Heinlen, American science-ficiton author
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Jellybean, Who REFERRED you to Wisdom Ranch School? Have you checked out private schools in your own area? Why are you considering sending your child to a school away from home anyway? Have you considered all other alternatives available to you that would allow your child to remain in the home? Or perhaps have the child live with another relative? There may be other answers besides a 24-hour-a-day...7 days-a-week- YEAR LONG...live-in-program.
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This place looks like the typical scam. How can it be a "school" without even a SINGLE TEACHER on the staff?
What problems is your kid having? Any of the ones listed here?
Students with the following conditions are best served at a different facility.
* Severe Chronic depression
* Severe suicide risk
* Personality disorders
* Psychosis
* Antisocial personality disorder
* Multiple personality disorder
* Dissociative Disorder NOS
* Severe Self Mutilation
* Sex offenders
* Arsonists
* Excessive physical violence
Why exactly do yo uwant to send your kid there?
What it looks like to me is a big scam where people pay this guy to use their kids as free labor on a ranch.
It looks as if there are no classes, no teachers, no therapists (I could find no credentials for Mr. Monte except that he is an ex-marine and worked at some other programs).
They have other kids taking primary care of your kid ("student mentors") and seemingly no credentialed therapists or teachers.
Man, this website raises RED FLAGS all over the place. What's scarier than the stuff listed on the website is the stuff you'd expect to see, but don't ("clinical director," "psychologist," "doctor," "nurse," "teacher," etc.).
Here's a link to their "accreditation":
http://www2.boisestate.edu/nasc/directory.htm (http://www2.boisestate.edu/nasc/directory.htm)
Yet another "Specialty School." Not a high school, not a middle school, a "specialty school" (i.e. public school academic requirements don't apply). I'd also check with the state of Idaho dept of Ed to see if they are listed there as "specialty" as well.
I'd have some SERIOUS reservations about this place....
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AGAIN: the question--who REFERRED YOU TO THIS PLACE?
This question is asking: who wants to make money off of sending your kid to this place????
The person who referred you to this site gave you GOOOD SOUND ADVICE. I certainly hope you are reading, reading, reading.
Please do not send your son to some facility until you have given this some SERIOUS THOUGHT, and have researched this issue.
I made this mistake, and THOUGHT I was sending my child to a NICE BOARDING SCHOOL to owners that "just loved children," and I was assured that it offered therapy and a fully accredited educational school with certified teachers. That's what the referring company, P.U.R.E, and its owner, Sue Scheff told me. The owner of Whitmore Academy, Cheryl Sudweeks is now charged with criminally abusing 4 children and is facing a criminal trial.
BEWARE BEWARE BEWARE!!!!!!!
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Nobody referred me to this school. I have done research on about 8 schools and I have a friend who has experience with Diamond Ranch. Nearly every school I have researched has come up with something scary except this one and I like the concept better than a facility that has steps and limited contact with parents, specific parent visit dates, only calls made that are monitored by staff, that don't encourage you to some see the place,etc. I have checked their accredidations through ID state and NW schools the BBB in idaho, spoken to the local chamber of commerce and the sheriff. They have given me ref's but I haven't called them yet. I chose not to use an education consultant. I am a healthcare consultant and am very used to having conversations with different types of businesses and can tell generally tell when I am being sold a used car. I understand that this is "big" business which is why I am trying to be so careful. Someone posted on here that the staff didn't have teaching credentials, but the bios on the website show those who are teaching have education and wildernes backgrounds. What site were you looking at? That's why I am asking because maybe someone else has another source of info that I can't find. I've done everything short of background checks on the staff member, which I may also do. I even checked recent loan history for the school. My son does not have any of the behavioral diagnoses listed in the post. He's struggling with self esteem issues and extreme peer pressure. He does much better when away from the pressures of his friends and specifically here in the city. I wish I had a good solid support system from family, but I don't and I am a single mother. As far as trying a facility close to home. I live in AZ and there is nothing here that I would get near. I read an article by someone named Sturdevant that was pretty positive. Anyone know who he is?
I give money for church organs in the hope the organ music will distract the congregation's attention from the rest of the service.
--Andrew Carnegie, Scottish-born American industrialist and philanthropist
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NORTHWEST would certify a "school of fish" if this "school" of fish could write a check for $150 bucks....this means NOTHING!!!
Read about IVY RIDGE Academy if you want to know how NORTHWEST certifies "SCHOOLS"....The Attorney General of New York just settled with parents for $1 million for accreditation problems... would NOT GIVE A LOT of attention of NORTHWEST.
Lady: if the only problem you have with your son is "peer problems" and esteem problems--you need to be thanking your lucky stars, and patting yourself and your son on the back!!!!
DON'T Send this boy off to some wilderness program...treatment facility. BE A MOM and do your job!!!!
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and I like the concept better than a facility that has steps and limited contact with parents, specific parent visit dates, only calls made that are monitored by staff, that don't encourage you to some see the place,etc.
Thats a major red flag for most people, why in the world does that not bother you?
He's struggling with self esteem issues and extreme peer pressure. He does much better when away from the pressures of his friends and specifically here in the city.
Look, ma'am or sir, that is being a teenager. I dont know if you remember, but at some point in time im sure you were kicked in the but by some bad feelings. I'm sure your friends wanted you to do something you thought was stupid. This is how a person grows, by living with it and dealing with it. Don't run from it by sending him away or he will never develop coping skills of his own. If he develops anything at all it will be tramatic, and posiblity dangerous.
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Listen, I didn't log onto this website to be riduculed and judged. i was asking for info on this school and I appreciate your feedback however I have not gone into the entire story and probably don't have enough space here. To the person who told me to "be a mom", I take offense to that statement. Maybe I wasn't clear enough that peer pressure and succumbing to it for my son has been three, recent, serious close calls mixing drugs and alcohol and many sleepness nights worrying. This past year has been excruciating and in the last 3 months has been spiraling downward. How many moms do you know have had the guts to take the police to a party where underage kids are drinking and drugging including her own son. Not many parents even care when you try to talk to them and get their help, most won't get off the couch. And before any of you say, well he must have a drug problem, no not yet and that is what I'm trying to avoid as well as accidentally dying from doing something stupid. He has the potential for that and I am more afraid of that than anything else. He lost his father 4 years ago and he found him dead. Regardless of what we have tried, sports, music, anything to give him motivation it only lasts awhile, he's got major wounds to heal and it's not easy for him. He's been in counseling for 4 years and he's not built enough inner strength to stand independently yet and I've tried everything. He has no male role model and is starving for that. He got attached to his personal trainer and then was crushed when he moved, he gets jsut as attached to his friends and will do anything not to lose them even dangerous things. I am not an idiot and I know what it happening with my son I just don't have all of the resources, myself, that I know he needs. I would love nothing more than to keep him at home, I cry everyday just because he's not home now, but I'm trying to help save his life and give him a chance. I am trying to be as careful as I can in this investigation and I know there have got to be good programs out there somewhere, just trying to find them.
Religion is comparable to a childhood neurosis.
--Sigmund Freud, Austrian-born psychologist
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I can't find any private messages
Speak gently! 't is a little thing Dropp'd in the heart's deep well; The good, the joy, that it may bring Eternity shall tell.
-- G. W. Langford: Speak gently.
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check them again before I start trolling you. Trust me you don't want that. I have a half used tin of KY, and a stale bottle of beer. It could get ugly.
:lol:
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Jelly--keep checking, and let us know when you find a GOOD PROGRAM OUT THERE, ok?
THERE ARE NO GOOD PROGRAMS...NONE!!!!
What advice does his therapist there in AZ have for you? What does this therapist tell you to do?
You need to go and read the site: Teen Advocates USA...read the articles written by Barbe Stamps. Write to these moms who have dead children. Ask these moms if they are sorry they sent their children to these programs? Story after story after story---all dead children who had self-esteem problems; some drug issues; skipping school; kids who were a bit defiant. NONE of these kids deserved to die, but they did. None of these moms deserve to have dead children, but the do.
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On 2005-08-31 19:56:00, jellybean wrote:
"Listen, I didn't log onto this website to be riduculed and judged. i was asking for info on this school and I appreciate your feedback however I have not gone into the entire story and probably don't have enough space here. To the person who told me to "be a mom", I take offense to that statement. Maybe I wasn't clear enough that peer pressure and succumbing to it for my son has been three, recent, serious close calls mixing drugs and alcohol and many sleepness nights worrying. This past year has been excruciating and in the last 3 months has been spiraling downward. How many moms do you know have had the guts to take the police to a party where underage kids are drinking and drugging including her own son. Not many parents even care when you try to talk to them and get their help, most won't get off the couch. And before any of you say, well he must have a drug problem, no not yet and that is what I'm trying to avoid as well as accidentally dying from doing something stupid. He has the potential for that and I am more afraid of that than anything else. He lost his father 4 years ago and he found him dead. Regardless of what we have tried, sports, music, anything to give him motivation it only lasts awhile, he's got major wounds to heal and it's not easy for him. He's been in counseling for 4 years and he's not built enough inner strength to stand independently yet and I've tried everything. He has no male role model and is starving for that. He got attached to his personal trainer and then was crushed when he moved, he gets jsut as attached to his friends and will do anything not to lose them even dangerous things. I am not an idiot and I know what it happening with my son I just don't have all of the resources, myself, that I know he needs. I would love nothing more than to keep him at home, I cry everyday just because he's not home now, but I'm trying to help save his life and give him a chance. I am trying to be as careful as I can in this investigation and I know there have got to be good programs out there somewhere, just trying to find them.Religion is comparable to a childhood neurosis.
--Sigmund Freud, Austrian-born psychologist
"
Whatever you do, don't rely solely on the word of an ed consultant or ESPECIALLY some private referral agent (ex-program parents who think they are experts on the placement of troubled teens and who get paid by the PROGRAMS themselves, for referrals ... ergo definite CONFLICT OF INTEREST!!!!)
Visit the program and talk to the state licensing agency for info on criminal background checks, citations, etc.
Don't sign away the rights of you and your child to be in contact (written and verbal). Open and uncensored communication is a MUST ... it is the lifetime to your child.
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I noticed jelly did not respond to myt question.
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On 2005-08-31 10:15:00, jellybean wrote:
"I do recall seeing that someone on the staff was affiliated with SUWS. I am wondering what they meant by a big joke. I did notice that it is not a punitive style school where contact is limited and such, but hopefully that doesn't mean something bad. This is a stressful process for a parent to research these schools and I have found some bad info on a lot of them such as Diamond Ranch (ouch)! I haven't been able to find anything adverse on this school and was referred to your site for help.
Shortbus quote: The feedback I got from the parents filtered through the theraputic staff that recommended the program was that "the parents thought the school was a joke". The circumstances behind the referral was that the family suggested that their son go to a theraputic boarding school after wilderness, the son figured that to succeed at school and graduate instead of just getting a ged might not be a bad idea. So son agreed to boarding school. The son was adamant about having a say in WHERE he would go. I suggested that he be given a couple days of internet access to do some research. This suggestion was not considered and his therapist at my wilderness program gave him information about one program - Wisdom Ranch. I felt that one choice wasnt really a choice. I again suggested engaging the sudent at a higher level and let him help decide where he wanted to go. One choice was all that was presented. His mother picked him up in New Mexico and flew with him to Idaho and met the father and the three of them visited Wisdom Ranch together. The school is located in eastern Idaho not far from some pretty desolate areas. Rediculously different than the images conjured up when someone mentions Sun Valley (I think their site mentions Sun Valley) - which is kind of close but not really. From what you post and what I know about SUWS from working there, there are some aspects of the program at Wisdom Ranch that might be beneficial. If possible always visit a program and listen to both the good and the bad whenever possible. You need to hear what works and what doesnt to help make an objective decision about what might benefit your son. I read you post and it brought up many sad memories. Its devastating for a child to lose a parent. I had a number of students that had and the loss they felt was beyond words for me. I know how I fell just trying to imagine their pain.
I wish that some of you anon posters would show a little empathy. I believe jellybean is doing the best she can so lay off the shit. Try puting yourself in someone elses shoes for a change.
[ This Message was edited by: Shortbus on 2005-09-01 05:12 ][ This Message was edited by: Shortbus on 2005-09-01 05:20 ]
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On 2005-08-31 19:56:00, jellybean wrote:
"Listen, I didn't log onto this website to be riduculed and judged. i was asking for info on this school and I appreciate your feedback however I have not gone into the entire story and probably don't have enough space here. To the person who told me to "be a mom", I take offense to that statement. Maybe I wasn't clear enough that peer pressure and succumbing to it for my son has been three, recent, serious close calls mixing drugs and alcohol and many sleepness nights worrying. This past year has been excruciating and in the last 3 months has been spiraling downward. How many moms do you know have had the guts to take the police to a party where underage kids are drinking and drugging including her own son. Not many parents even care when you try to talk to them and get their help, most won't get off the couch. And before any of you say, well he must have a drug problem, no not yet and that is what I'm trying to avoid as well as accidentally dying from doing something stupid. He has the potential for that and I am more afraid of that than anything else. He lost his father 4 years ago and he found him dead. Regardless of what we have tried, sports, music, anything to give him motivation it only lasts awhile, he's got major wounds to heal and it's not easy for him. He's been in counseling for 4 years and he's not built enough inner strength to stand independently yet and I've tried everything. He has no male role model and is starving for that. He got attached to his personal trainer and then was crushed when he moved, he gets jsut as attached to his friends and will do anything not to lose them even dangerous things. I am not an idiot and I know what it happening with my son I just don't have all of the resources, myself, that I know he needs. I would love nothing more than to keep him at home, I cry everyday just because he's not home now, but I'm trying to help save his life and give him a chance. I am trying to be as careful as I can in this investigation and I know there have got to be good programs out there somewhere, just trying to find them.Religion is comparable to a childhood neurosis.
--Sigmund Freud, Austrian-born psychologist
"
Hey, Jelly. Here is a link to THEIR OWN WEBSITE, staff page, and shows no teachers at all.
http://www.wisdomranch.org/staff.html (http://www.wisdomranch.org/staff.html)
Why would they list "student mentors" and not teachers?
What about medical staff? It's a remote place. Who cares for the injured or sick?
Again, I found no mention of any credentialed therapist/teacher/doctor/nurse, etc.
RED FLAGS ALL OVER THE PLACE, Jelly...
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Hit the button to soon...
His counselor feels he is very immature emotionally and mentally for his age and he feels that a job would help him and he does think if he had some time away from distractions to grow it would help. he has also cautioned me on thorough investigation of programs and would also prefer a local one, although he, again has not heard of anything here in AZ that is credible. All religions have been made by men.
--Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor
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Three Springs Waygookin: just because you worked in a treatment program, and didn't seem to do such a good job at that--you have no right to tell ANONS to "fuck off." And this woman does need to read Teen Advocates USA before she sends her son off to some wilderness program to possibly be "marched to death" like some of these kids were! I may be an ANON--but I have never put some kid in a "take down hold" like YOU HAVE! And I never worked at some FACILITY and witnessed abuse like YOU DID without reporting it to the proper authorities. So...save your little judgements and "holier than thou" attitude for someone who cares what YOU THINK!
This woman is ready to enroll her kids in some facility that just may harm her son more than just leaving him totally alone to do as he pleases with no help at all.
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Settle down, Joyce. TSW is a good guy and his heart is in the right place. Attacking him is not going to help Jelly.
I can understand how people around here get upset with anons. Use a login and try to be responsible...
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On 2005-09-01 06:50:00, jellybean wrote:
"Hit the button to soon...
His counselor feels he is very immature emotionally and mentally for his age and he feels that a job would help him and he does think if he had some time away from distractions to grow it would help. he has also cautioned me on thorough investigation of programs and would also prefer a local one, although he, again has not heard of anything here in AZ that is credible. All religions have been made by men.
--Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor
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When the program gets done with him, he will have regressed to the elementary school level emotionally.
These places do not foster emotional growth. They require strict obedience to their program at the expense of individuality. If your kid is already susceptible to peer pressure, places like these will ruin any possible growth, as they are based on peer pressure to effect behavior modification.
I would suggest more parental control. He goes to school, comes directly home and out to counseling in your community. Wherever he goes, you go (or another responsible adult).
What you're describing, in my professional opinion, does not rise to the level of residential treatment (not to mention the place you're looking at doesn't even have a psychologist on staff, so they can't possibly offer junior what he needs).
Hang in there, Jelly. Use your judgement. Don't allow pressure/scare tactics to dictate your behavior.
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On 2005-09-01 06:50:00, jellybean wrote:
"Hit the button to soon...
His counselor feels he is very immature emotionally and mentally for his age and he feels that a job would help him and he does think if he had some time away from distractions to grow it would help. he has also cautioned me on thorough investigation of programs and would also prefer a local one, although he, again has not heard of anything here in AZ that is credible. All religions have been made by men.
--Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor
"
Anasazi is in AZ ... no known deaths ... requires PARENTS to participate with their kids ... are you up for walking with your child on the journey toward healing?
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On 2005-09-01 06:50:00, jellybean wrote:
"Hit the button to soon...
His counselor feels he is very immature emotionally and mentally for his age and he feels that a job would help him and he does think if he had some time away from distractions to grow it would help. he has also cautioned me on thorough investigation of programs and would also prefer a local one, although he, again has not heard of anything here in AZ that is credible. All religions have been made by men.
--Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor
"
Try Blue Hills Academy - they are very good as they are former WWASP employees. Problem with this one is that your kid has to agree to go, sign in and agree to stay, otherwise, the laws in Arizona say that no matter how old they are, they can walk or run...
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Anasasi is a short term wilderness program in the Arizona desert. Good reputation, but again, your kid has to agree to go and stay/complete the program. Do you know how many kids would actually do that? Very few. If they do go and decide they don't want to stay, you've lost the tuition - what is it, about 25,000 now for a few weeks? Gone.....
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So what? If you put your kid into any program and they hold them against their will, the "tuition" is still just as gone. Plus you have the added sorrow of whatever damage they may do to the kid while they've got total control over communications. So, on balance, I'd say it sounds like a bargain. Send them to Anisazi or Outward Bound, if anything. But don't be fooled into thinking that extra-judicial imprisonment is an added service!
One does not have to appeal to God to set the initial conditions for the creation of the universe, but if one does He would have to act through the laws of physics.
--Stephen Hawking, English scientist
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On 2005-09-01 15:12:00, Antigen wrote:
"So what? If you put your kid into any program and they hold them against their will, the "tuition" is still just as gone. Plus you have the added sorrow of whatever damage they may do to the kid while they've got total control over communications. So, on balance, I'd say it sounds like a bargain. Send them to Anisazi or Outward Bound, if anything. But don't be fooled into thinking that extra-judicial imprisonment is an added service!One does not have to appeal to God to set the initial conditions for the creation of the universe, but if one does He would have to act through the laws of physics.
--Stephen Hawking, English scientist
"
Damn good point!
:nworthy:
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Thanks to all of the people who have given constructive criticism and input.
I will look at Anasazi and Blue Hills. My son will go voluntarily and he knows that things are going to change dramatically. I do want to be careful, as I've mentioned. I would participate in anything that would help my son. He won't run he's not that independent. Once he's backed into a corner he folds for awhile, but then jsut tries to figure out how to manipulate the situation. The parental control idea is a great one. The problem is that, again, his friends have so much power over him that even my mandates are thrown aside in the moment when his friends are present. I work, of course and although my schedule is fairly flexible it's school where things occur and when I'm gone at work. Bottom line is I'm by myself and he's 6'2" and 200lbs and I can't tie him down or hold him back physically. I have done my share of chasing him down, regular drug testing, calling the police the 2 times I've found pot in my house and busting up parties. Right now, he's at his grandparents house just to get him away from his friends. They are there all day and he really goes no where except to counseling until I can figure out what we are doing about school. You'd think that grandma and grandpa would be a good alternative, however, in short, what he sees there is his 36 year old uncle still living at home recovering from years of drug abuse, aunt lives next door and is still putting her life together from years of drug abuse and of course his dad died at 34, in his parents house still after years of drug use. Does enable and co-dependent ring a bell here? I definitely don't want history to repeat itself and if he stays there I'm sure it will. Believe it or not I do have a plan B to a program, but I honestly didn't plan on getting into this all that much on this site. iwas just lookin for input on programs. If I can't find one, I'll sell my house and move closer to grandmas, bring him home with me so he's not in that environment 24/7 and utilize their help for oversight and help with transporting him to wherever he needs to go, counseling and such. I definitely don't think that, if he stays here that I'm putting him back in any high school, maybe a GED and a trade school of some sort. High school is poison these days no matter where they are and especially if your not able to handle pressure from peers. A mentor would be awesome, but I've searched for that here as well and my son apparently doesn't fit the high level "at risk" type of kid in Phoenix. Not low enough on the socio-economic ladder to be a priority I guess. Anyone know how to manufacture a good "dad"? That would be helpful. I would also like a group type of counseling that included positive peers, haha. Which, leads me to my final comment on that. I have some experience with the anon groups and even had a long time member of NA recommend to me that I send my son to Pathways (on a soapbox of course) and I don't know if any of you have heard about that program, but it was busted up recently because the owner was caught on tape preaching cult stuff to the kids, nice. Should have taken his advice, huh? An anon meeting definitely isn't the answer for someone who could have co-dependent tendencies. if you can take what you need and leave the rest (as they say) your okay, but alot of them can't, it's just transerfence, but not any healthier in my opinion. Of course, i suppose if you have to choose between death by substance or codependency on a group to stay clean it's the lesser of two evils to be a "2" time anon loser than strung out on drugs and alcohol. I know some nice people that are involved in that, but alot of those long-timers push their ideas on others outside of the meetings, worse than an ex-smoker and don't bother to take a look at themselves and realize that they've given up their substances and replaced them with sex, computers, co-dependence or soapboxes and couldn't get through a sober week without 3 or 4 meetings and of course program stuff trumps everything, even your own mother. If you call that recovery, yikes! Anyway, since I have gotten much more than objective advice from some of you I though I'd interject my opinion as well. hopefully it didn't come off as harsh as some of yours have. Anyway, thanks to all who have thrown in objective, carefully thought out and direct advice without throwing out emotion to the point of insult.There is something feeble and contemptible about a man who cannot face life without the help of comfortable myths.
--Bertrand Russell, British philosopher, educator, mathemetician, and social critic
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Blue Hills is a WWASP spin-off. That means "stay away if you care about your child".
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checked them both out and actually didn't like Blue Hills. Anasazi looked like something to check into further.
ThanksAs a rule, children love their parents, believe what they teach, and take great pride in saying that the religion of mother is good enough for them.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer
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Larry Olsen, who runs Anasazi, left the BYU program under a cloud. There were allegations of sexual impropriety. Don't know the details - anyone?
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http://outside.away.com/magazine/1095/10f_deth.html (http://outside.away.com/magazine/1095/10f_deth.html)
Thanks, found something here, gives mixed info. Written fairly well in contrast and does mention something about Larry Olsen and his background at BYU. This is a Mormon based program. Will keep searching for something. Plan B is looking more feasible. All contemporary religions and churches, all and every kind of religious organization, Marxism has always viewed as organs of bourgeois reaction, serving as a defense of exploitation and the doping of the working-classes.
--Nikolai Lenin, Russian revolutionary
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Jellybean....the mentoring you mentioned..was it Big Brothers and Big Sisters you contacted? I think mentoring is a great idea...it doesn't solve the problems but I've personally seen it be helpful....I hope you dont give up on the mentoring idea...I know lots of organizations are sprouting up besides BBBS...anyway...if I find anything interesting about mentoring I'll pass it on to you here. ::rainbow::
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yes, he was on a waiting list for BBBS for 2 years and nothing.
Everybody needs beauty as well as bread, places to play in and pray in, where nature may heal and give strength to body and soul alike.
-- John Muir
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If the kid is willing to go willingly (now that's an oxymoron) then why send him away at all? Enroll him in an alternative school in Arizona that can help meet his needs and/or interests. Outward Bound is great for building self-esteem and helping parents to repair broken relationships with their teens. No one has ever complained about Outward Bound. Not parents or teens. They aren't in the business of robbing kids of their adolescence and/or identity as a means of changing and/or controlling behavior. Who needs a ranch school for 6 months? Can't your kid go to school in Arizona AND get help with his issues?
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Yeah, that's what I was afraid of....BBBS is great if you can ever get off the wait list....mentors dont exactly grow on trees....
Anyway.....here's a link for Arizona mentoring programs....there's a lot of them...if you want to check it out
http://www.azmentors.org/programlist2.htm (http://www.azmentors.org/programlist2.htm)
::rainbow::
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TSW said--------"Oh Nonconformist... Let me name the ways I love Thee!
1 one thousand
2 one thousand
3 one thousand
4 one thousand
5 one thousand
oh heck I ran out of fingers. I should start a thread about the dangers of illegal fireworks one of these days."-----------
::rainbow::
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Thank you for the mentor link. I have already contacted some of them via email for info. For some reason, in the past, I haven't found that site and I've looked. I guess it takes a village (not just a cliche).
I appreciate your helpMay the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house.
-- George Carlin
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Hey you were being mean to! I belive you said something like. "Dont make me waist text on correcting you." :razz:
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waste, sorry sorry
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What do you like about Blue Hills? I didn't see anything attractive about it. Also, maybe you could explain exactly what WWASP is and exactly what this site represents? Seems there is obviously two sides here in debate.
That it is wrong for a man to say he is certain of the objective truth of a proposition unless he can provide evidence which logically justifies that certainty. This is what agnosticism asserts and in my opinion, is all that is essential to agnosticism.
--Thomas Henry Huxley, English biologist
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WWASP/S is a network of highly abusive, cult-like "teen help" programs. 8 of their programs have been shut down due to abuse and neglect. Their program consists of confrontational "group sessions", in which students humiliate and berate each other, and Lifespring-style seminars, during which students and parents are indoctrinated and eventually come to accept WWASPS as their savior (notice how almost all the graduate talk about how their lives were saved? Yeah).
WWASPS, and any of their spin offs, must be avoided if you care at all about your child.
More info is available here:
http://www.isaccorp.org (http://www.isaccorp.org)
http://education.guardian.co.uk/classro ... 32,00.html (http://education.guardian.co.uk/classroomviolence/story/0,12388,987932,00.html)
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Blue Hills? I live in AZ - Blue Hills is a very small spin off by a former WWASPS person. Don't know if she was an employee or what. Someone said she used to be married to David Gilcrease. Rumor maybe.
Anyway the pro of this would be that your kid is in AZ. The con would be there are no family support systems in place - there is a Phoenix family support group that meets once a month and tons of ways to connect with each other during other times. Kids went - graduate or not - come to the meetings too.
There are no parent/child workshops that I'm aware of nor are there any workshops/seminars for you as a parent to get your life to a different place (if you need it, of course) Some do, some don't.
Schools and programs that are overseen by WWASPS are always in the news - both good and bad. I have personal experience and know the bad is media hype - you know kinda like a famous person - the more famous they are the worse the stories. Usually always based on fact but twisted so it hardly even resembles the truth anymore.
There are thousands of success stories, but only a few that feel they were not given what they were promised. Funny thing is, WWASPS, nor each individual school promises anything. People hear only what they want to
If I wanted to believe my kid was being abused, I could have stupidly gone up to Cross Creek and pulled him out - didn't though, just made sure it wasn't true in other ways. He said anything he could in the beginning to get me to come and rescue him from having to follow rules or to get away from not being able to do what he pleased.
If you really read some of the stories about abuse, you'll certainly see what would motivate it. My son was there for 19 months and in all that time the only abuse he saw was the kids abusing the staff or their parents when they came to visit - his words. He's been home 5 years so it's not a "fresh" experience and his story hasn't changed.
Good luck to you in your research. It's always best to look at both sides.
Here's a couple of links that help on the "pro" side - not welcome on this site and will get a lot of blasting - I can take it.
http://www.wwasprebuttal.com/parent_references.html (http://www.wwasprebuttal.com/parent_references.html)
If you're in AZ - you can get some information on the schools at http://www.arizonateenhelp.com (http://www.arizonateenhelp.com) - you won't be talking with someone somewhere in cyberspace - you will be getting info from parents that have been where you are right now and in the same area. As far as I know they aren't there to tell you what to do - only give you their personal experience and answer your questions. I'm not sure what happens after that other than talking to an admissions person if you decide that's what you want to do next.
But, please let us know if there's any pressure or anything that would be considered not right.
PHX
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Here's a couple of links that help on the "pro" side
You have to be kidding, right? The 'pro side'?! :lol: These were written by WWASP themselves, the company who is raking in tens of millions of dollars per year (probably well over a hundred million now) on the backs of ignorant parents. Shame on all of you.
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That's right, PHX. Keep telling yourself that you "did the right thing". Keep ignoring the horrifying truth. It must be pretty tough for you to cope with the guilt of having paid for your son to be imprisoned and abused.
So, now, to ease your guilt and keep that bubble you're living in occupied, you try to draw other parents into that same trap you fell into so long ago. I bet you don't tell them how much money you make out of their ignorance and vulnerability, do you? You don't tell them that WWASPS pays you $1000 for every parent you manage to recruit.
You will rot in hell for what you did to your son and for what you caused other parents to do to their own children.
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On 2005-09-03 10:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Blue Hills? I live in AZ - Blue Hills is a very small spin off by a former WWASPS person. Don't know if she was an employee or what. Someone said she used to be married to David Gilcrease. Rumor maybe.
Anyway the pro of this would be that your kid is in AZ. The con would be there are no family support systems in place - there is a Phoenix family support group that meets once a month and tons of ways to connect with each other during other times. Kids went - graduate or not - come to the meetings too.
There are no parent/child workshops that I'm aware of nor are there any workshops/seminars for you as a parent to get your life to a different place (if you need it, of course) Some do, some don't.
Schools and programs that are overseen by WWASPS are always in the news - both good and bad. I have personal experience and know the bad is media hype - you know kinda like a famous person - the more famous they are the worse the stories. Usually always based on fact but twisted so it hardly even resembles the truth anymore.
There are thousands of success stories, but only a few that feel they were not given what they were promised. Funny thing is, WWASPS, nor each individual school promises anything. People hear only what they want to
If I wanted to believe my kid was being abused, I could have stupidly gone up to Cross Creek and pulled him out - didn't though, just made sure it wasn't true in other ways. He said anything he could in the beginning to get me to come and rescue him from having to follow rules or to get away from not being able to do what he pleased.
If you really read some of the stories about abuse, you'll certainly see what would motivate it. My son was there for 19 months and in all that time the only abuse he saw was the kids abusing the staff or their parents when they came to visit - his words. He's been home 5 years so it's not a "fresh" experience and his story hasn't changed.
Good luck to you in your research. It's always best to look at both sides.
Here's a couple of links that help on the "pro" side - not welcome on this site and will get a lot of blasting - I can take it.
http://www.wwasprebuttal.com/parent_references.html (http://www.wwasprebuttal.com/parent_references.html)
If you're in AZ - you can get some information on the schools at http://www.arizonateenhelp.com (http://www.arizonateenhelp.com) - you won't be talking with someone somewhere in cyberspace - you will be getting info from parents that have been where you are right now and in the same area. As far as I know they aren't there to tell you what to do - only give you their personal experience and answer your questions. I'm not sure what happens after that other than talking to an admissions person if you decide that's what you want to do next.
But, please let us know if there's any pressure or anything that would be considered not right.
PHX"
Not this dick again. This person is a programmie thru and thru and has financial connections to WWASP. Does a LOT of advertising for them.
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How the heck are you supposed to know what is what here? I do know that kickback systems work well in United States to help businesses get referrals, it happens all the time in my business and I'm certain it happens in others. I am notorious in my business for refusing them, they are unethical so shame on anyone who accepts them for this purpose!
I am going to ask this question please don't blast me, objective input only, thanks
Does anyone know anything about Wilderness Quest? Everything in moderation, including moderation.
Mark Twain
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http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =30#109027 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=9625&forum=44&start=30#109027)
WWASP and PHX information.
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Jelly, why are you so fixated on residential placement of your kid? CLEARLY his behavior doesn't rise to that level. Do you realize that he won't get any psychological care from these places?
It sounds like he's a normal kid dealing with some big, but normal, issues (like his dad's passing).
Believe us when we tell you these places WON'T HELP him to deal with grief and loss and will CREATE other issues that he'll be less likely to discuss with you or anyone else after the program shuts him down emotionally.
These programs provide TEMPORARY behavior modification, but do irrepairable psychological damage. He's not going to trust you after he feels abandoned and gets abused and told things like "your mom is sick of you that's why she left you here." Then, alone, he will begin to struggle with all of the prior problems, plus the abuse heaped on him in captivity.
These places are SCAMS designed solely for the purpose of separating a desperate fool from her money. I know because I worked at one of the industry's most expensive "flagships."
For $5000.00 per month your kid gets treated worse than your dog, and all the while they sequester him and abuse him and tell you he needs to stay longer and you can't talk to him because he's being "defiant" or he's not "working the program." "Trust the process" they'll tell you. That is until you run out of money, then your kid will be out on his ass so fast it'll make your head spin.
Jelly, seriously consider what you're doing here. Don't let this become "program shopping." Take your time and talk to your kid's therapist.
If residential care is warranted (and I'm sure s/he'll say it isn't), use in-patient programs near your home. If he really needs an in-patient level of psychiatric care, at least respect him enough not to hand him over to pseudo-psychological hacks with no degree or training or certification or license.
Jelly, help save your kid from hell, don't weave the basket...
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On 2005-09-03 11:12:00, jellybean wrote:
"How the heck are you supposed to know what is what here? I do know that kickback systems work well in United States to help businesses get referrals, it happens all the time in my business and I'm certain it happens in others. I am notorious in my business for refusing them, they are unethical so shame on anyone who accepts them for this purpose!
I am going to ask this question please don't blast me, objective input only, thanks
Does anyone know anything about Wilderness Quest? Everything in moderation, including moderation.
Mark Twain
"
It's a 12-step (AA model) "wilderness" program for drug addicted/alcoholic teenagers.
12-step programs have been proven to be one of the least effective modalities for getting kids off drugs. More often than not, the kids exchange "war stories" and learn about other types of drugs and how to use them without getting caught (again).
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I am not fixed on a placement for my kid, but what I am fixed on is doing the absolute best job I can do in searching for the right resources and options. Here's the thing, when you are a parent in these shoes and things are getting progressivley worse and each incident doesn't ellicit a response from my son that even closely relates to admitting what he is doing is dangerous, but rather keeps saying how everyone else who has gotten caught up in serious drug addictions is stupid except him and minimizes what he's done or blames others for exposing him to what he's done it's scary. You think: I only have him for a little while longer, what if he doesn't get it before he can do whatever he wants (turns 18), what if I don't do anything more than what I'm doing now, what if it doesn't work, what if I send him somewhere and it makes it worse, what if he ends up dead and I did nothing or he ends up dead because I did something and it was the wrong thing to do. You see regardless of what I do, I need to know that I was aware of my options and made the best decision I could. Either way I could be making the wrong one. I have to live with that the rest of my life......it's tough....put your self in my shoes. I could get a million different suggestions and still make the wrong choice and then who do I blame? The person who gave it to me? At the end of the day I am responsible for this situation until he is age.
The wretchedness of religion is at once an expression and a protest against real wretchedness. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the feeling of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of unspiritual conditions. It is the opium of the people.
--Karl Marx, German economist and political philosopher
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Jelly Bean - I'm curious as to why you would be posting on a program "hate" site? If you are truly looking for the best option for your family, wouldn't it be better to identify first what you are looking for - what issues are you currently looking for help with and then ask for references from each of the schools you are researching. Ask those parents (and you can ask to talk to their teen if they're now home) to give you both the good and not so good in their experience. I know that most parents and the teens will tell you what they did or didn't like about their school of choice.
Asking here is going to give you too much fear in seeking help - like everyone on here says, they think keeping our kids at home is really an option. If we get to this point, it usually isn't and could do more harm than good. We all wanted to keep our kids at home,but to truly love them, we had to look to places that specialize in this.
Coming on this board you'd get the idea that HELP is a bad and shameful word. Good for you for asking, but you'd be better served over at http://www.strugglingteens.com (http://www.strugglingteens.com). They are not associated with the WWASPS schools, as they are a group of educational consultants and WWASPS doesn't pay educational consultants so they discourage you looking there. But...their forum is good.
PHX :wink:
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but to truly love them, we had to look to places that specialize in this.
::puke::
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Only kids who are a danger to themselves or others need to be placed in a "locked" (meaning 24 hour supervision) facility and even then, 90 days is about the average length of time needed to stablize them.
Parents who turn to private lock down facilities as the answer to conflict in the home, school or community often believe they are "saving" their child from certain harm when in reality, they could be placing their son/daughter in an environment ruled by fear and intimidation.
BUYER BEWARE.
:eek: :eek: :eek:
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On 2005-09-03 17:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Jelly Bean - I'm curious as to why you would be posting on a program "hate" site? If you are truly looking for the best option for your family, wouldn't it be better to identify first what you are looking for - what issues are you currently looking for help with and then ask for references from each of the schools you are researching. Ask those parents (and you can ask to talk to their teen if they're now home) to give you both the good and not so good in their experience. I know that most parents and the teens will tell you what they did or didn't like about their school of choice.
Asking here is going to give you too much fear in seeking help - like everyone on here says, they think keeping our kids at home is really an option. If we get to this point, it usually isn't and could do more harm than good. We all wanted to keep our kids at home,but to truly love them, we had to look to places that specialize in this.
Coming on this board you'd get the idea that HELP is a bad and shameful word. Good for you for asking, but you'd be better served over at http://www.strugglingteens.com (http://www.strugglingteens.com). They are not associated with the WWASPS schools, as they are a group of educational consultants and WWASPS doesn't pay educational consultants so they discourage you looking there. But...their forum is good.
PHX :wink: "
Obviously you are a program parent ... someone who advocates "programming" vs. "parenting".
Struggling Teens is a forum infested with toxic parents.
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Many of them do not have the fortatude to be disagreed with. Most infact do not seem its right to question their actions, or the current health of their child. While there are some ok people there, most struck me as rude, and disrespectful, and very condicending. The do truely care about their children, but they have been blinded. I believe they are victims of con men that just need help.
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On 2005-09-03 21:57:00, OverLordd wrote:
"Many of them do not have the fortatude to be disagreed with. Most infact do not seem its right to question their actions, or the current health of their child. While there are some ok people there, most struck me as rude, and disrespectful, and very condicending. The do truely care about their children, but they have been blinded. I believe they are victims of con men that just need help."
Ive read your posts over there. You got it backwards, you're the one that is rude, disrespectful and condescending. And you're the same way on this site.
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Anon Quote: Obviously you are a program parent ... someone who advocates "programming" vs. "parenting"....
************
Actually parenting and family values are a huge part of the program - interesting that you would say that. Do you have experience of a WWASPS school or are you just another person on here that hates programs in general?
PHX :wink:
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On 2005-09-03 22:19:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Anon Quote: Obviously you are a program parent ... someone who advocates "programming" vs. "parenting"....
************
Actually parenting and family values are a huge part of the program - interesting that you would say that. Do you have experience of a WWASPS school or are you just another person on here that hates programs in general?
PHX :wink:
"
Parenting is a huge part of the program?
If that's so, why wouldn't the program allow you to visit or even talk to your own child, until they decided it was okay?
Why weren't you allowed to have any knid of interaction with him until you fulfilled the program's requirements, went through their seminars, and became intodctrinated with their ideology?
Lady, wake up. A program that keeps you from communicating freely with your own child and which keeps him out of the real world for years is not about "parenting". WWASPS took your parental authority from you, and manipulated you into thinking they are empowering you. And you fell for it. And now you are trying to pull another desperate parent into the same trap.
Shame on you.
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Oh, and one more thing: if the program is about "parenting", why are parents encouraged to abandon their child and cut off all communications with him/her if the child refuses to what the cult... oops, the "Program" wants them to do?
Parents, if you care about your kids, stay away from WWASPS and similar programs. They damage your child and you in so many ways. And, no, keeping your kid in a program for years is not "parenting"... it's "abandonment".
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I didn't come to a "hate: site as you call it on purpose. I was looking for some new avenues to help me find my own information. Trust me I haven't taken one of these folks advice without further checking it out on my own or anyone else's for that matter. i have been researching schools for about 2 months and I have called the parents and spoken to kids about many programs. at one point I asked someone, and I don't even remember what site it was, about the school. I couldn't find anything seriously adverse about Wisdom Ranch and that't why I posted here. Before I ever logged onto this site i found some attrocious things about many schools written by parents and children, the folks here referred me to those sites again. I have said this before, I do think there are good programs out there, but I have found bad things on most all of the those I've looked at in person and on line. One program had an ad for Diamond Ranch that was hiring some kind of staff for oversight or something that said no experience necessary, will train, What!?. I am smart enough to know that everything isn't Disneyland, except Disneyland and I want to know the people who have been unsatisfied and I can judge my self whether they were just complaining or it was abuse they underwent. It does happen. Doing research on my own has been intensive, but I wouldn't hire a consultant to do it for me. I do know that kickbacks are prevalent in every big business and that does not give them the ability to be objective, in my mind. Do educational consultants sign on for any liability for their referrals? i bet embedded in their contracts is a release from liability. I'll rely on my own judgement thanks. I did check out struggling teens long before i ever ended up on this site. There were some good stories, but I saw alot of parents struggling with the same issues with their children when they got home. This entire issue is so sad and it's epidemic.
All religions have been made by men.
--Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor
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On 2005-09-04 08:05:00, jellybean wrote:
"I didn't come to a "hate: site as you call it on purpose. I was looking for some new avenues to help me find my own information. Trust me I haven't taken one of these folks advice without further checking it out on my own or anyone else's for that matter. i have been researching schools for about 2 months and I have called the parents and spoken to kids about many programs. at one point I asked someone, and I don't even remember what site it was, about the school. I couldn't find anything seriously adverse about Wisdom Ranch and that't why I posted here. Before I ever logged onto this site i found some attrocious things about many schools written by parents and children, the folks here referred me to those sites again. I have said this before, I do think there are good programs out there, but I have found bad things on most all of the those I've looked at in person and on line. One program had an ad for Diamond Ranch that was hiring some kind of staff for oversight or something that said no experience necessary, will train, What!?. I am smart enough to know that everything isn't Disneyland, except Disneyland and I want to know the people who have been unsatisfied and I can judge my self whether they were just complaining or it was abuse they underwent. It does happen. Doing research on my own has been intensive, but I wouldn't hire a consultant to do it for me. I do know that kickbacks are prevalent in every big business and that does not give them the ability to be objective, in my mind. Do educational consultants sign on for any liability for their referrals? i bet embedded in their contracts is a release from liability. I'll rely on my own judgement thanks. I did check out struggling teens long before i ever ended up on this site. There were some good stories, but I saw alot of parents struggling with the same issues with their children when they got home. This entire issue is so sad and it's epidemic. All religions have been made by men.
--Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor
"
Wow, good points.
In answer to your question, I am not sure about the liability of educational consultants but I do believe the majority of ed consultants are paid by parents, NOT the programs they refer to.
Waiver and Terms of Use for PURE (who gets paid for referrals by the programs, themselves) as published on their website:
Waiver:
We recommend adolescent services including schools, programs, treatment alternatives, therapists, and transport services; We do not own, control, manage, nor direct any individuals or companies that provide these services. We do not assume any liability or responsibility, implied or otherwise for said services. All liability or responsibility for any recommended services is assumed entirely by the service provider, as outlined in their individual enrollment agreements with the parent/sponsors.
Terms of Use:
THE INFORMATION FROM OR THROUGH THIS SITE IS PROVIDED "AS-IS," "AS AVAILABLE," AND ALL WARRANTIES, EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED, ARE DISCLAIMED (INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE DISCLAIMER OF ANY IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE). THE INFORMATION MAY CONTAIN ERRORS, PROBLEMS OR OTHER LIMITATIONS. OUR SOLE AND ENTIRE MAXIMUM LIABILITY FOR ANY INACCURATE INFORMATION, FOR ANY REASON, AND USER'S SOLE AND EXCLUSIVE REMEDY FOR ANY CAUSE WHATSOEVER, SHALL BE LIMITED TO THE AMOUNT PAID BY THE CUSTOMER FOR THE INFORMATION RECEIVED (IF ANY). WE ARE NOT LIABLE FOR ANY INDIRECT, SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF BUSINESS, LOSS OF PROFITS, LITIGATION, OR THE LIKE). WHETHER BASED ON BREACH OF CONTRACT, BREACH OF WARRANTY, TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE), PRODUCT LIABILITY OR OTHERWISE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE. THE LIMITATIONS OF DAMAGES SET FORTH ABOVE ARE FUNDAMENTAL ELEMENTS OF THE BASIS OF THE BARGAIN BETWEEN US AND YOU. WE WOULD NOT PROVIDE THIS SITE AND INFORMATION WITHOUT SUCH LIMITATIONS. NO REPRESENTATIONS, WARRANTIES OR GUARANTEES WHATSOEVER ARE MADE AS TO THE ACCURACY, ADEQUACY, RELIABILITY, CURRENTNESS, COMPLETENESS, SUITABILITY OR APPLICABILITY OF THE INFORMATION TO A PARTICULAR SITUATION.
source: http://helpyourteens.com/terms_of_use.html (http://helpyourteens.com/terms_of_use.html)
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Jellybean: I'd stay away from anything associated with either WWASP or PURE. You can ask about specific programs on Struggling Teens and get private responses from parents with experiences there, good or bad.
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"
On 2005-09-04 08:05:00, jellybean wrote:
There were some good stories, but I saw alot of parents struggling with the same issues with their children when they got home. This entire issue is so sad and it's epidemic.
See, that seems to be the best case in this industry; ineffective but relatively benign. In the worst cases, it's ineffective and harmful. I just don't think there's any better way to raise kids than by hand. Instead of looking for people who promise help w/ troubling teens, why not just think of some things that you think might be helpful. What about a family vacation? Hiking and camping are cheap and the fall colors will be hitting the NE soon. It's amazing sometimes what a little change of scene can do for just about anybody's mood and head.I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers.
-- A Bit of Fry and Laurie
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On 2005-09-04 17:42:00, Antigen wrote:
""
On 2005-09-04 08:05:00, jellybean wrote:
There were some good stories, but I saw alot of parents struggling with the same issues with their children when they got home. This entire issue is so sad and it's epidemic.
See, that seems to be the best case in this industry; ineffective but relatively benign. In the worst cases, it's ineffective and harmful. I just don't think there's any better way to raise kids than by hand. Instead of looking for people who promise help w/ troubling teens, why not just think of some things that you think might be helpful. What about a family vacation? Hiking and camping are cheap and the fall colors will be hitting the NE soon. It's amazing sometimes what a little change of scene can do for just about anybody's mood and head.I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers.
-- A Bit of Fry and Laurie
"
This is good, sage advice Ginger. I often wonder about the kids in these behavior mod warehouses, boot camps, wilderness programs who given the chance to spend time with their parent(s) away from the "negative influence" of their peer group (not my words, this is the teen help industry's sales pitch) wouldn't agree the experience was more helpful to them then sitting in OP for hours, even days on end, with nothing better to do than wonder if their parents know (or even care) what's really going on in these places?
Parenting by program manuals is NOT the answer, it is a $50k crutch. A colossal rip off.
:eek:
u
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This isnt the best metaphor but Im trying... I can understand the situation that jellybean is in. JB has tried a lot of different things to address the childs negative behaviors.
Here goes...
My cars acting up. I try to troubleshoot with the basic info that I have about cars. Car doesnt get better, is getting a little worse. So I go to the library and check out some books. Try a couple different things and still no luck. So I make some phone calls and collect more info. The guys on the phone try to help but its hard to problem solve on the phone. Can I possibly bring the car in? Yeah, we might have to keep it for a while. And it might be expensive to fix. Im wondering if maybe a mechanic might come out to the house and fix it or maybe teach ME how to fix it?
I dont have the skills/tools to fix the car. Can I find someone to teach me how? Possibly, but how do I know the guy willing to teach knows what hes doing? The one-on-one instructor situation is rare - in just about everything from auto mechanics to bread baking. Its out there but hard to find. Or you can battle it out with books and manuals. My point is that yes, its a great suggestion to go off on a vacation with the children and raise them yourself but parents out there are admitting they need more tools. I dont know what the solution is but parents like jellybean are trying. This website for the most part condemns programs but I dont see much in the way of creative thinking to come up with options.
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Yes, but we're not talking about complicated machines designed and built by automobile experts (under directive from unions, regulators, et al) We're talking about a boy; a young human manufactured in mind and body by people. Human beings and other creatures on this planet have been raising our offspring w/o professional help for millenea. You want to look at examples of civilizations that gave over that profound responsibility to the pros?
Ok, Uncle Joe subjected all citizens of the USSR to his government shrinks. How'd that work out for him? Following that model, Fidel has brought about an impressive child rearing machine in Cuba. Ask a Cuban about Fidel's much vaunted free public education, including mandatory rural boarding school for city kids. It's easy to find someone w/ firsthand experience of that. Just go to Miami and ask the first person you meet who has a strong Cuban accent. It'll probably be the first person you meet. Then there's Hitler Youth. All good intentions aside (and I do believe most Germans had the best of intentions in the beginning of that nightmare), how did that work out for them?
Nobody, not the cops or teachers or shrinks, let alone self declared troubled teen experts, knows this kid or will ever care nearly as much about him as his mother, his old friends and solid family. Nobody. Bar none. Shit, you won't even remember this lady's screen name or situation even 10 years from now. But the man will still be her son.
It will be generally found that those who sneer habitually at human nature and affect to despise it, are among its worst and least pleasant examples
--Charles Dickens
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I too dont agree with removing children en masse from the family home. I do feel that there can be some benefits found in removing a child from an unsafe home environment. As with everything, there are exceptions. I have had friends that have had to live with the knowledge that their mother had wished they had never been born. And Ive had numerous students that have told me the same thing. What kind of parent looks a child in the eye and tells them they wish they had never gotten pregnant???? Is home a good, safe place for that child? Through history there have been children raised by others, I think the apprentice system was set up like that. When your parents couldnt afford another mouth to feed you were sent off and raised by someone else. You worked for your food but you had a place. I dont necessarily agree with any of these practices, but any of these might be better than the situation the child is in.... Just a mile a way from my home - in an affluent part of St. Paul, Minnesota the cops found a dog kennel in the basement where the parents would lock up their daughter when she was misbehaving.... this childs parents are nutbags and shouldnt be allowed to raise their kids. They are better off in someone elses hands.
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On 2005-09-05 06:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I dont have the skills/tools to fix the car. Can I find someone to teach me how? "
I wouldn't go looking to WWASP for help with this one. David Gilcrease, a software engineer is the one who developed all of their 'tools' in the seminars. I have been through them, and they are the most ridiculous, laughable scam I've personally come across. It isn't so funny when you are locked up and forced to go though, not funny at all. What's funny is to realize what idiots your parents really are, after a few years of reflection. The craziest people are the ones who buy into it. It's not therapy, it's not tools, it's nothing. Not sure how to explain it other than a scam. That's all it is.
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Shortbus, your right about how bad some parents are, that kids need to be as far away from them as possible. I've seen a lot of cases where parents are shockingly abusive to their kids.
But on the other hand, many parents do not fall into that category. My dad for example, is a decent person, who really tried the best he could and was at his wits end with me....But I think with him he overreacted to my problems and Straight preyed on his worst fears as a parent (that I might end up dead, in jail or insane without the program).
So I guess I think many parents are truely desperate to find a solution and programs convince them that their program offers an immediate instant cure. Since when are human probelms solved by miraculous quick fixes????
I have a feeling parents fall into 3 very general categories...1) abusive, 2) good parents who are just desparate for a solution and want to do the right thing, and 3) parents who just dont want to deal with the "problem child" anymore so dump them into a program to do their work for them.
What is sad to me is the good parents that are really trying to do the right thing have difficulty in finding the right solution...and with all the misleading program advertising...it really doesnt surprise me how very well meaning parents get sucked in to the scam...and with all the programs out there....I can imagine how difficult it might be to distinguish a good one from a bad one because all programs paint very pretty pictures of the "amazing" results their program "guarantees." Its sad that there are so few decent options for parents, when extreme options are truly needed that is.
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On 2005-09-06 10:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-09-05 06:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I dont have the skills/tools to fix the car. Can I find someone to teach me how? "
I wouldn't go looking to WWASP for help with this one. David Gilcrease, a software engineer is the one who developed all of their 'tools' in the seminars. I have been through them, and they are the most ridiculous, laughable scam I've personally come across. It isn't so funny when you are locked up and forced to go though, not funny at all. What's funny is to realize what idiots your parents really are, after a few years of reflection. The craziest people are the ones who buy into it. It's not therapy, it's not tools, it's nothing. Not sure how to explain it other than a scam. That's all it is."
Large Group Awareness Training (LGAT) is what the WWASPS seminars are all about. Junk, voodoo, science that makes otherwise lousy parents feel good about themselves ... or should I say, their magical child?
Check out the cult info websites for more info on LGAT seminars like est, Lifespring, The Forum, etc.
:eek:
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What about parents who put their kids in programs knowing the program is controversial? What kind of parent is that?
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On 2005-09-06 23:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
"What about parents who put their kids in programs knowing the program is controversial? What kind of parent is that?
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An irresponsible, lazy, dangerous parent.
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I stand by the belief today that not all programs are evil. Evil programs do exsist, and it is up to the parents to investigate these places throughly.
While I agree with what TSW says a lot of the time. This is where TSW and I clash. I believe a "Fruit of a poisoned tree" theory. Let me explain here. I think that the first of these Teen Help Programs were faulty, and I believe that all derivatives have been fucked up. We start with Syanon, moves up the tree to seed and straight, then we have WWASP CEDU, and from these groups we have break off small more independent schools and organizations. I think that the only thing that could make me think the industry was ok was if a new, progressively radical, type of program was started; Something that does not have its base in the abusive programs.
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Bottom line is only kids who are a danger to themselves (suicidal) or another (psychotic) need to be placed in a secure (locked) facility and even then, experts say 90 days is about the average time needed to stablize them.
These long-term hyper-vigilent residental schools, camps and programs are nothing more than private, parent-funded teen prisons.
Problem is parents won't admit it ... they are too defiant ... and there lies the irony. Defiant parents, not teens, are what drive the for-profit teen help industry.
:smokin:
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TSW said----"I stand by the belief today that not all programs are evil. Evil programs do exsist, and it is up to the parents to investigate these places throughly."
Overlord said-----"While I agree with what TSW says a lot of the time. This is where TSW and I clash. I believe a "Fruit of a poisoned tree" theory. Let me explain here. I think that the first of these Teen Help Programs were faulty, and I believe that all derivatives have been fucked up. We start with Syanon, moves up the tree to seed and straight, then we have WWASP CEDU, and from these groups we have break off small more independent schools and organizations. I think that the only thing that could make me think the industry was ok was if a new, progressively radical, type of program was started; Something that does not have its base in the abusive programs."---------
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Actually, I agree with both TSW that not all programs are evil and Overlord?s fruit of the poisonous tree theory. Here?s why.....because although ?horrid programs are widespread and are dominating the ?industry? right now....I would image that small decent programs must exist somewhere.....In my mind there are exceptions to every rule...but I do think good programs are nearly impossible to find if they do exist. A progressive, radical, different type of program that throws all the ideas from the current models out is an absolute necessity. Funny how you mentioned this because I?ve been brainstorming on this very topic for years...most of which starts with a mentoring approach as its foundation....they must be small programs to prevent ?bad ideas? getting in the mix, and build from there. Its tough to explain this...maybe I?ll try to explain my thinking at another time....but anyway...I really think you are both right, not one of you or another. Hope I?m making sense.
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Mentoring is a very good idea, and I support that completely. While I have never been "mentored" as in the idea of having some one assigned to me, I have been mentored by many people that I learned alot from. I think every one should have some one they look up to.
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Right, and I would bet so-called "troubled teens" frequently dont have decent roll models(crappy parents) or missing role models (single parent)one parent "checked out" or is otherwised not involved with the child, or decent parents but to much conflict exists so those kids are not interested in "looking up" to even the best of parnets...
There more to it than this but when I mentored...I was so surpised how much kids enjoyed "positive" attention that was fun, so they were much more willing to listen, because it was talking like normal people, not another lecture from a parent...again a lot to this idea too....
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Overlord, I think we should make up some flyers saying something to the effect "If you see a kid out of school during [such and such hours], say hi, be friendly, engage them, they're not dangerous unless threatened". Then we go out and take down all those truancy hotline flyers and replace them w/ ours.
so long as the universe had a beginning, we could suppose it had a creator. But if the universe is completely self-contained, having no boundary or edge, it would neither be created nor destroyed it would simply be. What place, then, for a creator?
--stephen Hawking, English scientist
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It would certanly take away the idea that all kids skipping school have a gun and smokes pot. I have never seen the truancy filers though. I think it would be a great idea overall.
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Ginger said ----"If you see a kid out of school during [such and such hours], say hi, be friendly, engage them, they're not dangerous unless threatened". -----------
You know, thats exactly what kids like that need....just to be treated decently instead of being misjudged and condemned all the time....It really says something about how bad kids are treated by families and society that when someone does exactly that, just says hi, is friendly and engages them, kids either dont know how to react(stunned by it) or are they are enthusiastic, or simply reciprocate...god why cant people see what you just said Ginger????
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Why don't people do what she says?
Well she is Ginger! the Creator of Fornits!!! We know she is pure evil and the enemy of every kids that needs to be helped out of deadorinjail. She is the devil! why would we, the professionals, listen to the likes of her?
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: [ This Message was edited by: OverLordd on 2005-09-10 18:54 ]