Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Truth Searcher on August 11, 2005, 08:02:00 AM
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We have friends who placed their trouble son (15) at a facility in Montana called "New Horizons". From the get-go I had red flags going up. And I am not sure how to respond to his parents.
For unruly boys they shackle them to a pole "until they calm down". They "feed and water them" at the pole.
No therapist on staff. Therapy is an extra charge and requires a trip into town.
They are "home schooled". In other words, no certified teachers on the premises.
The night they arrived the boys were eating Tuna Helper. Cheap yes, but nutritious? NOT!
They spend their days baling hay and building more dorms for future students.
All this for the cost of $4200/month. :question: :question:
This is sooooooooooo very different than the therapeutic school that our daughter attended. Not sure if her program was awesome or if it was an exception. But this young man's program sounds "shady". Looking for insights. Thanks.
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FYI, one web site lists fees at $2,500/mo, not that that makes it a good place. The "town" has a population of about 150, and is a few miles from another with about 1,000. They describe it as a "Christian" program, with some kind of church "support", which makes one wonder. If kids do get shackled, to a pole or in any other way, they really should be reported as suggested. The parents ought to be questioned about their motives as well.
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If you can look past the heavy hand of the forum administrators over at http://www.strugglingteens.com (http://www.strugglingteens.com) there is a wealth of information in their archives. There are a bunch of references to New Horizons in Maine but there are also some comments about New Horizons, Montana. Check it out.
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Its pretty easy to recognize the biases of different sites. I like having the opportunity to turn over as many rocks as possible when doing research.
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Truth seeker,
where did your daughter go?
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Well I did some snooping around and found nothing. Which is a big concern. Even the local police department knew nothing of the facility. The officer I spoke with had lived in this tiny town for his entire life. Hmmm.... going to have to dig a little deeper. Thanks for the ideas. I did check out struggling teens and the info there was similar to the website offered by the program. No real information. Thanks again.[ This Message was edited by: Truth Searcher on 2005-08-11 14:09 ]
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Anon~
Sorry.... I don't want to disclose that information. This population is not exactly "program friendly". ::bangin:: I will tell you that she had a very positive experience there. She bears no ill-will. But, she was not abused as many on this forum were.
Sorry to be vague. I just wish to protect her (and my) anonymity.
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this place sounds =very= shady. especially if the police didn't even know much about it. does the child have contact with the outside world? mail? phone calls? visits? what do vegetarian students eat? do they have a varied menu? or is it all top ramen and hamburger helper? is the "pole" inside or outside? what kind of shackles do they use? handcuffs? or more like restraints? is the child allowed to go to the bathroom when they are on the pole? what about school? do they ever restrain a child by sitting on him? do they ever inject sedatives? is there an MD on campus? the more detail you can get about this place and on these abuses, the better.
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Hmmm? How does withholding the name of the program protect 'your' anonymity? I am not challenging your decision, your choice, but your excuse for doing so doesn't make sense.
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Hmmmm? How does my offering the name of the program change the discussion at hand? If you can figure out who the hell "Paul" is, then perhaps you can figure out who the hell I am. Not a chance I choose to take.
Perhaps if I felt the environment a little more friendly (or at least less hostile) toward parents who have made a placement, I might be slightly more inclined to offer details. But, at this point, I don't know that I have encountered one shred of support or understanding about residential treatment facilities. Not even quality ones.
My "excuse" may not make sense to you. That's OK. Lots on this forum doesn't yet make sense to me. But, I come here with an open mind and a desire to better understand the truth.
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lots of people come here looking for information on programs. You are right, most people are here trashing programs. But some are looking for help, looking for the programs that good.
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TS,
I couldn't care less if you name the program or not. Notice that I didn't ask the question.
I was simply commenting that your excuse didn't make sense and still doesn't- How WOULD mentioning it expose your identity?
I seriously doubt that 'truth seeker + (name of program)' would bring any returns on google.
Even if your identity was known to me, I certainly wouldn't seek out your personal information. Paul attempted to slander me. He deserved what he got. And I'd like for you to notice that all I did was out him by posting information that was readily available on the web.
Program Rule #1:
Thou shalt not lie or manipulate. The consequences could be unpleasant. Follow that rule and you don't have to worry about being 'bbq'd'.
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i haven't read the Paul thread, but Truth Seeker, you are smart not to give too much information. Ginger has no problem posting the places and giving out information regarding posters that does let people reading the thread know who is posting. Anonymous means nothing on this board. I have seen it happen in several different threads. I don't know how posting the school would tell who you are, but maybe putting that with where you are posting from, might. so....be careful.
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Deborah~
I have neither "lied nor manipulated". (Were you implying that I had?) But, I still worry about being b'b'qued. You must recognize that this can be a hostile audience..... I sometimes feel like I'm camping on enemy grounds.
So, you and I have no beef. As I said, I come here to try and gain perspectives from the other side of the industry. My experience is limited. I have only first hand knowledge of one program. And it was a good one. I want to know what the rest may look like.
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No, of course I wasn't implying that you had lied or manipulated.
Program Rule #2:
Thou shalt pay attention to what is said, so the other person doesn't have to repeat themselves.
In regard to your fear of being bbq'd, based on what happened to Pauly, I said:
Thou shalt not lie or manipulate. The consequences could be unpleasant. (Interpretation-that's what Paul did) Follow that rule and you don't have to worry about being 'bbq'd'.
I give you the benefit of doubt... but in fact you could actually be an Ed Con or competitor who has a vested interest in bashing 'New Horizons'. Either way, no beef here. You've shared some good info about a program that little info is available on.
Keep us updated as you hear other details.
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On 2005-08-11 17:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
Ginger has no problem posting the places and giving out information regarding posters that does let people reading the thread know who is posting.
For example?In order to live free and happily you must sacrifice boredom. It is not always an easy sacrifice.
-- Richard Bach
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On 2005-08-11 14:53:00, Truth Searcher wrote:
If you can figure out who the hell "Paul" is, then perhaps you can figure out who the hell I am. Not a chance I choose to take.
Paul introduced himself as Paul Cummings, mental health advocate from San Fran. Nobody outed the guy. He's made himself a public figure.
Nobody's going to know who you are based on the name of the school you're talking about. And it certainly would make it easier for everyone involved to discuss the place in a meaningful way.
The law in its majestic equality, forbids all men to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread - the rich as well as the poor
--Anatole France
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I stand corrected. I didn't out him in terms of exposing his identity. But, he was not just a lowly mental health advocate from San Diego. That is what I exposed.
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... 11&forum=9 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=10711&forum=9)
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"Nobody's going to know who you are based on the name of the school you're talking about. And it certainly would make it easier for everyone involved to discuss the place in a meaningful way."
Yeah, but the subject isn't the school where he put his kid .. unless it was an abusive "Christian" place in a small town in very northern Montana
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OK.... well we really got off track.
I came looking for advise, from people who have some insider understanding of less than reputable programs. I have suspicious about the tactics used at New Horizons Youth Camp in Rexford Montana. I have utilized the advise offered here. I turned up nothing.
How we ended up on Paul Cummings and MY daughters program I haven't a clue.
And perhaps in time I will chose to disclose my daughters experience. But for the time being I choose not to. Imagine yourselves on a home-schooling forum, with parents who abhor the thoughts of a public education. And imagine being asked to disclose the name of the public school where they attend. And in your limited experience (with this said forum)you feel that the public school is going to be torn to shreds and your position/decision as a parent is going to be hung out to dry. So that is my position..... and I stand by it.
Thanks for listening.
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Just curious why youd spend so much time getting information about where someone elses kid is. But would you send your kid somewhere that is run by "christian zealots"?
The site for the program is vague, the people who own it have no cred and the site doesnt even list a church affiliation. Give me a contact for the parents that sent their kid there - Ive got a bridge to sell them.
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I'm researching this facility because before I go to them with my concerns, I want to have something more concrete to offer than my "red flags". Seems reasonable doesn't it? I mean, if someone came to me with concerns about decisions I had made as a parent, I would hope they would come with more information than a "hunch". I would rather be guided by facts, not feelings. More dependable.
My research did turn up the church they affiliate with. So my next step is to call the church/pastor and get some feedback.
I don't know that being a Christian zealot is necessarily a bad thing. Lots of people I respect may have been considered Christian zealots. But, that's a whole other can of worms isn't it?
[ This Message was edited by: Truth Searcher on 2005-08-12 07:11 ]
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On 2005-08-12 04:47:00, Truth Searcher wrote:
And perhaps in time I will chose to disclose my daughters experience.
Personally, I'd rather hear from her directly.I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard was not what I meant.
---Richard Nixon
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TruthSearcher- don't disclose anything on this forum. They just want to do some sleuthing and figure out who you are and then slam you. Check out the thread called Welcome to our Troll or something like that and the one called KareninDallas. They managed to post a phone number for a total stranger.
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In your first post you said:
For unruly boys they shackle them to a pole "until they calm down". They "feed and water them" at the pole.
No therapist on staff. Therapy is an extra charge and requires a trip into town.
They are "home schooled". In other words, no certified teachers on the premises.
The night they arrived the boys were eating Tuna Helper. Cheap yes, but nutritious? NOT!
They spend their days baling hay and building more dorms for future students.
All this for the cost of $4200/month.
**********
Assuming that you got that information from the parents, what would warrant concern in their eyes?
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***They managed to post a phone number for a total stranger.
'THEY'? Suggesting a conspiracy? One poster, who later apologized did that.
And I can assure you that it would never have happened had she not annonymously lumped everyone together (as you are) and slandered the entire site.
Thought you folks were on board with tough love and consequences.
Yeh, yeh... I know. What's good for the kid is not good for the parent.
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Deborah is psycho.
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http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacie ... minem.html (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html)
:wstupid: When an innocent Californian millionaire gets killed by a drug squad
trying to seize his house with a bogus search warrant, people better ask themselves if they really want to turn their cops into money-makers.
--Vancouver Police Const. Gil Puder
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On 2005-08-12 10:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Deborah is psycho."
Is this what passes for your excuse at a rational argument? Isn't it true that you're only posting garbage like this because you can't answer simple questions asked of you?
Are you afraid you're going to look stupid? If so, you already do, so you might as well take a risk and try to explain your position like an adult.
So, ok, Deborah is a psycho, and you're an asshole. Let's call it even then.
Now, would you please name the program you support and specific reasons why you support it?
If you're not going to answer the questions asked of you, simply SHUT THE FUCK UP and stop bloating the bandwidth with your childish statements.
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On 2005-08-12 09:14:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
" The experiences your daughter went through are hers, and hers alone to share.
Afraid that I have a bit of a differing opinion. Her experience is hers ~ that is true. But, it was not hers alone.
When she was hurting, I was there holding her hand and drying her tears. When she was stoned into unconsciousness, I was the one who rode in the ambulance. I was the one who cleaned up the vomit from one too many beers.
Her CHOICES were and still are hers alone. But, when your a mom, you suffer the consequences right along with them.
That's what family does. Rejoices with you. And sometimes suffers with you.
Perhaps I misspoke myself when I said I may share her experiences (as in telling you all her story). I could only share the experience of parenting her. But, make no mistake, I "shared" her experiences and by remaining a part of her life, I always will.
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So, you say she cant speak for herself, and youre going to discredit what she went through because you still want to play victim and have a pity party and celebrate how 'strong' you are?
It is one of the most beautiful compensations of life, that no man can sincerely try to help another without helping himself.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Not everyone here feels like NIHI. Some of us are like you, but from previous experiences have learned not to open up here. I too have a child that had a successful time in a program and know of several people who have as well. Don't let those here diminish or make you question what you know
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Nihil is a moron. He is a 20 year old who never grew up emotionally and he gets his kicks by slamming parents on a messge board. He is probably an unpopular, unattractive loser who can only be cool while he is in front of a keyboard.
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On 2005-08-12 13:51:00, Truth Searcher wrote:
Afraid that I have a bit of a differing opinion. Her experience is hers ~ that is true. But, it was not hers alone.
When she was hurting, I was there holding her hand and drying her tears. When she was stoned into unconsciousness, I was the one who rode in the ambulance. I was the one who cleaned up the vomit from one too many beers.
Her CHOICES were and still are hers alone. But, when your a mom, you suffer the consequences right along with them.
That's what family does. Rejoices with you. And sometimes suffers with you.
Perhaps I misspoke myself when I said I may share her experiences (as in telling you all her story). I could only share the experience of parenting her. But, make no mistake, I "shared" her experiences and by remaining a part of her life, I always will."
except for the experience she had when she was sent away, you were NOT there to share that, and everything you know of that happened, you've only heard second-hand. I was abused at Provo Canyon School, and I've never told my father. He's not the kinda man you can approach like that, he's ill and close to death, so I've just never told him. I'm sure he still thinks it was a great decision, and I don't have the heart to bring it up. :cry:
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Three Springs~
I wholeheartedly agree with what you have said! I know there are many things that she experienced that I am totally unaware of. I hope that she finds me approachable enough to share some of those things in time. Actually she has already opened the door a crack.
I can only hope that this dreadful chapter in her life is behind her... behind us all. I want nothing for her except to be a happy well adjusted young woman who can move forward.... in whatever capacity she finds her fulfillment.
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On 2005-08-12 15:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Nihil is a moron. He is a 20 year old who never grew up emotionally and he gets his kicks by slamming parents on a messge board. He is probably an unpopular, unattractive loser who can only be cool while he is in front of a keyboard."
What are you now, an armchair therapist?
At least Niles cares about children and seeks to alleviate the horror to which people just like you subject them.
You're very fond of saying you won't discuss the particulars of your child's placement because it "leads to bashing," but you sit here and bash just the same.
If you don't like Niles, fine. Don't engage him then.
That being said, you are still just acting like a child, using ad hominem attacks and attempting to "character assassinate" someone who you don't even know, simply because you are at an utter loss to refute his arguments.
Is this why you're upset with Niles? Because he's only twenty and you don't have the cognitive horsepower to deal with him? Pretty petty...
Try acting like an adult for a change and EXPLAIN exactly WHY "your program" is a good one. Name the program, explain how your child was diagnosed and with what disorder and tell us how the treatment plan that your program drafted addressed your child's psychological and social maladaption.
Please, we're all eager to hear about a good program so that we may point struggling parents to a place that won't actually abuse and neglect their child.
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On 2005-08-12 15:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
Don't let those here diminish or make you question what you know"
Yeah, be careful! People around here have super psychic special powers. We'll cast a spell that makes you think good programs are bad. Better keep the name of the place a secret, cause we need that like a voo doo master needs a lock of hair to work the magic. :roll:
Or, more likely, ppl around here might know a little more about some of these programs than you do. Some of them may even have spent time as clients or staff there. Ya' just never know until you ask.I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.
-- Hunter S. Thompson
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Ya know folks, parents make mistakes - you all talk about changing things, wanting to make a difference so other kids don't end up in horrific places, by bashing parents, ganging up on them, not allowing them to justify their feelings of sadness, fear, etc. is not going to accomplish your mission it gives you all less verasity and eventually it will be the few of you on this board, and no one will pay attention at all. If that is what your goal is then keep on doing it.
Grow up folks! Listen in my work whether I agree with a parent or not for their choices it not my place to say even when asked, I inform them of alternatives, what is out there, how to get accurate information, and make the best choices, we cannot tell parents what is best for their children or they are wrong.
These people turn to Ed Consultants of which I am researching - credentials are very scary - one I spoke to has an MBA? What does this have to do with Children/Adolescents, Education, Mental Health, DD, or Substance Abuse Issues? I am very concerned that their are more of these out there, with no actual knowledge other than how to get on a plane, get fed a good meal, brought on a PR tour, help parents apply for loans when needed, and have a rolodex of transports. These are the people that you need to focus your efforts on as well as the bad programs, until that happens and they are stopped, the parents will continue to send their children. For whatever reason when they turn to others for help they are feeling desperate it is not for you or me to dispute their feelings or to say they are not justified, if you want to play a role and make a difference then find a way to do it where people will pay attention and not think you are all nuts - I am not convinced that you are nuts - I feel you are passionate and committed to this cause, but need a more unified and convincing way to be taken seriously.
Be mad at me if you wish - this is my opinion and I know this from experience myself.
Andrea
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One more point - I in no way intened my previous post to be offensive just have been around for a while and see how people are often turned off. Ginger fights with me all the time and doesn't realize she is preaching to the chior (or tries to argue rather), it is important to show that you have some clout and knowledge in what you are doing, and this does not come by ganging up on people but to answer their questions in an understanding way and insert your knowledge in the answer.
Andrea
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On 2005-08-12 04:47:00, Truth Searcher wrote:
"OK.... well we really got off track.
I came looking for advise, from people who have some insider understanding of less than reputable programs. I have suspicious about the tactics used at New Horizons Youth Camp in Rexford Montana. I have utilized the advise offered here. I turned up nothing.
How we ended up on Paul Cummings and MY daughters program I haven't a clue.
And perhaps in time I will chose to disclose my daughters experience. But for the time being I choose not to. Imagine yourselves on a home-schooling forum, with parents who abhor the thoughts of a public education. And imagine being asked to disclose the name of the public school where they attend. And in your limited experience (with this said forum)you feel that the public school is going to be torn to shreds and your position/decision as a parent is going to be hung out to dry. So that is my position..... and I stand by it.
Thanks for listening."
I give you a lot of credit. At least you are here doing the research, reading and debating.
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Andrea, how, exactly, do you go about getting information about a program if its name is a secret?
As I've said before, you're not the first and probably won't be the last to try and regulate this problem away. It's never worked. They just whittle away at the well intended stipulations, pretend to comply, change their language and the beat goes on. When the State of Florida tried to reel in Straight, Inc. by holding them to the standards for foster homes, they simply came into the group room and informed us all that, henceforth, we would be sleeping in "host homes". In Utah, they've responded to TBS regulations by insisting that they're all just plain old boarding schools. It's like a manic, never ending game of monkey in the middle.
And I've been hearing for years now about how non-credible and ineffective these forums are and how I should do something to control users. But the traffic just keeps on coming and so do the threats and ligigation. Evidently, it's having some effect.
So long as there is a demand for thought reform services, the market will rise to meet it. But nobody knowingly, intentionally pays someone to brainwash themselves and/or thier children. Every last customer has to be tricked into it. That's how tought reform works. The only way I know of to bust up a cult is to let the current members in on the scam. Nobody enjoys being told they're being played. Especially when they've got such lofty ideals about it.
The truth hurts sometimes. But it's the only way I know to defeat a con artist.
Were the power of Congress to be established in the latitude contended for, it would subvert the very foundation, and transmute the very nature of the limited Government established by the people of America.
James Madison
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On 2005-08-13 05:26:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
You're very fond of saying you won't discuss the particulars of your child's placement because it "leads to bashing," but you sit here and bash just the same.
If you don't like Niles, fine. Don't engage him then.
That being said, you are still just acting like a child, using ad hominem attacks and attempting to "character assassinate" someone who you don't even know, simply because you are at an utter loss to refute his arguments.
Try acting like an adult for a change and EXPLAIN exactly WHY "your program" is a good one. Name the program, explain how your child was diagnosed and with what disorder and tell us how the treatment plan that your program drafted addressed your child's psychological and social maladaption.
Please, we're all eager to hear about a good program so that we may point struggling parents to a place that won't actually abuse and neglect their child."
DysJunc~
It appears to me that you are confusing me with ANON (Andrea). I did not engage Nihl. I did not bash him. In fact, I never even responded to him. I refuse to respond to judgmental name calling. I am not at an "utter loss" to refute his arguments. It would be a waste of my breath.
Insofar as you think me acting childish.... well I just plain don't get that. Sounds a bit like the pot calling the kettle black.
As I explained earlier, I am not willing to disclose the program my daughter attended. Would be like a lamb being led to slaughter. No thanks.
I was told that I had no business telling my daughters story. That it was her story alone to tell.
So, the bottom line is this. If you truly want to affect change, you are going about it ass-back wards IMHO. Instead of attacking people who are really trying to understand the ugly side of this institution, I suggest you be a little less hostile and a little more approachable.
If I was a less gritty person, for sure I would have high tailed it out of here after my first reading. But, I really, really want to hear your stories, suggestions, and ideas to better regulate this industry.
You know the old adage.... you attract more flies with sugar.
Try to imagine for one minute that I am a parent who deeply cares about kids (mine and others who are very troubled). That I am a parent who made a responsible placement for my cherished child. Imagine for a minute that she was not abused, and is not scarred from her experience. Imagine that it may have addressed/alleviated some very serious emotional, psychological, and social issues in her life. Imagine that there are caring individuals (professionals) who really desire to help kids and are not motivated by financial recompense. And then maybe, we can have a dialog and learn from one another.
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On 2005-08-13 06:42:00, Anonymous wrote:
Ginger fights with me all the time and doesn't realize she is preaching to the chior (or tries to argue rather),
Andrea"
You keep saying that. And I keep reminding you that I do have a pretty good idea what you're about. I've seen it before. All good intentions aside, I expect you'll get the same result that everyone else who has done what you're doing has gotten. You'll work yourself ragged to get some regulation in place. Then the lobbyists will have their crack at it. Then, the day you turn your hand to some other labour, all your work will be quietly discarded like last year's campaign promises.
Now, I'm all for getting info out on New Horizons. But not if it's only going to be used as a recruiting tool for some other thought reform program. Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?"
Priest: "No, not if you did not know."
Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"
--Annie Dillard, "Pilgrim at Tinker Creek"
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You've created more commotion by not naming the program, because people are naturally curious, than if you had named the program and acted like it was no big deal. See you've dug yourself in so deep, you can't really cave and just say the name of the damn program, but you're wishing you had never admitted you sent your daughter to a program in the first place.
It's just very suspicious when you say Imagine it may have done good, no abuse, no problem, etc, and you're all for it, but then you're afraid to name it. What is so bad about the name of the program, that's what I want to know?
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On 2005-08-13 07:35:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"Actually Truthspeaker you will attract more flies with horseshit.
OK... ya got me there and gave me a laugh in the process. :rofl:
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On 2005-08-13 07:18:00, Truth Searcher wrote:
"
On 2005-08-13 05:26:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
You're very fond of saying you won't discuss the particulars of your child's placement because it "leads to bashing," but you sit here and bash just the same.
If you don't like Niles, fine. Don't engage him then.
That being said, you are still just acting like a child, using ad hominem attacks and attempting to "character assassinate" someone who you don't even know, simply because you are at an utter loss to refute his arguments.
Try acting like an adult for a change and EXPLAIN exactly WHY "your program" is a good one. Name the program, explain how your child was diagnosed and with what disorder and tell us how the treatment plan that your program drafted addressed your child's psychological and social maladaption.
Please, we're all eager to hear about a good program so that we may point struggling parents to a place that won't actually abuse and neglect their child."
DysJunc~
It appears to me that you are confusing me with ANON (Andrea). I did not engage Nihl. I did not bash him. In fact, I never even responded to him. I refuse to respond to judgmental name calling. I am not at an "utter loss" to refute his arguments. It would be a waste of my breath.
Insofar as you think me acting childish.... well I just plain don't get that. Sounds a bit like the pot calling the kettle black.
As I explained earlier, I am not willing to disclose the program my daughter attended. Would be like a lamb being led to slaughter. No thanks.
I was told that I had no business telling my daughters story. That it was her story alone to tell.
So, the bottom line is this. If you truly want to affect change, you are going about it ass-back wards IMHO. Instead of attacking people who are really trying to understand the ugly side of this institution, I suggest you be a little less hostile and a little more approachable.
If I was a less gritty person, for sure I would have high tailed it out of here after my first reading. But, I really, really want to hear your stories, suggestions, and ideas to better regulate this industry.
You know the old adage.... you attract more flies with sugar.
Try to imagine for one minute that I am a parent who deeply cares about kids (mine and others who are very troubled). That I am a parent who made a responsible placement for my cherished child. Imagine for a minute that she was not abused, and is not scarred from her experience. Imagine that it may have addressed/alleviated some very serious emotional, psychological, and social issues in her life. Imagine that there are caring individuals (professionals) who really desire to help kids and are not motivated by financial recompense. And then maybe, we can have a dialog and learn from one another.
"
I guess you're more concerned with talking than listening.
Nowhere in the post that you QUOTED, but apparently did not read, did I address you. I addressed only the person whom I quoted (bashing anon). That person is not you (I assume, since you have a username) and is acting the fool, to say it nicely.
How is anything I said "the pot calling the kettle black"? I simply pointed out that, once again, there are programmies here that like to bash others and will go to extrordinary lengths to avoid reasonable discussion.
Either you can't comprehend what I'm saying or you choose to plug your ears. Either way, it's clear that you, Truth Seeker, do not in any way add to the dialogue here. You won't even name the program that you support. If it's so great, why not get some free advertising?
So, if you're looking to engage me, AT LEAST READ what I wrote. Don't go thru the trouble of quoting my posts if you're not going to read them.
So, get real, lady, talk facts or get lost.
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On 2005-08-13 07:18:00, Truth Searcher wrote:
"
On 2005-08-13 05:26:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
You're very fond of saying you won't discuss the particulars of your child's placement because it "leads to bashing," but you sit here and bash just the same.
If you don't like Niles, fine. Don't engage him then.
That being said, you are still just acting like a child, using ad hominem attacks and attempting to "character assassinate" someone who you don't even know, simply because you are at an utter loss to refute his arguments.
Try acting like an adult for a change and EXPLAIN exactly WHY "your program" is a good one. Name the program, explain how your child was diagnosed and with what disorder and tell us how the treatment plan that your program drafted addressed your child's psychological and social maladaption.
Please, we're all eager to hear about a good program so that we may point struggling parents to a place that won't actually abuse and neglect their child."
DysJunc~
It appears to me that you are confusing me with ANON (Andrea). I did not engage Nihl. I did not bash him. In fact, I never even responded to him. I refuse to respond to judgmental name calling. I am not at an "utter loss" to refute his arguments. It would be a waste of my breath.
Insofar as you think me acting childish.... well I just plain don't get that. Sounds a bit like the pot calling the kettle black.
As I explained earlier, I am not willing to disclose the program my daughter attended. Would be like a lamb being led to slaughter. No thanks.
I was told that I had no business telling my daughters story. That it was her story alone to tell.
So, the bottom line is this. If you truly want to affect change, you are going about it ass-back wards IMHO. Instead of attacking people who are really trying to understand the ugly side of this institution, I suggest you be a little less hostile and a little more approachable.
If I was a less gritty person, for sure I would have high tailed it out of here after my first reading. But, I really, really want to hear your stories, suggestions, and ideas to better regulate this industry.
You know the old adage.... you attract more flies with sugar.
Try to imagine for one minute that I am a parent who deeply cares about kids (mine and others who are very troubled). That I am a parent who made a responsible placement for my cherished child. Imagine for a minute that she was not abused, and is not scarred from her experience. Imagine that it may have addressed/alleviated some very serious emotional, psychological, and social issues in her life. Imagine that there are caring individuals (professionals) who really desire to help kids and are not motivated by financial recompense. And then maybe, we can have a dialog and learn from one another.
"
I guess you're more concerned with talking than listening.
Nowhere in the post that you QUOTED, but apparently did not read, did I address you. I addressed only the person whom I quoted (bashing anon). That person is not you (I assume, since you have a username) and is acting the fool, to say it nicely.
How is anything I said "the pot calling the kettle black"? I simply pointed out that, once again, there are programmies here that like to bash others and will go to extrordinary lengths to avoid reasonable discussion.
Either you can't comprehend what I'm saying or you choose to plug your ears. Either way, it's clear that you, "Truth Searcher," do not in any way add to the dialogue here. You won't even name the program that you support. If it's so great, why not get some free advertising?
So, if you're looking to engage me, AT LEAST READ what I wrote. Don't go thru the trouble of quoting my posts if you're not going to read them.
So, get real, lady, talk facts or get lost.[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2005-08-13 07:56 ]
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"If it's so great, why not get some free advertising?"
Ummmmm ..... that would be like advertising beef products on a forum designed, run by and frequented by vegetarians. Make me laugh... :lol:
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Like I said before, some of you people are so full of shit it's not funny.
What you're saying is that you'll only talk with program sycophants. It's an extension of program dogma, people. Plain and simple.
You're a programmie though and through. You have no intellectual or social interest in this industry. If you did, you'd be open to MEANINFUL DEBATE on its MERITS. You aren't at all interested in that.
I'll ask you the same thing I ask others like you: What is your purpose of posting here?
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Truth Searcher Said-----"Try to imagine for one minute that I am a parent who deeply cares about kids (mine and others who are very troubled). That I am a parent who made a responsible placement for my cherished child. Imagine for a minute that she was not abused, and is not scarred from her experience. Imagine that it may have addressed/alleviated some very serious emotional, psychological, and social issues in her life..."-------
Yes, I can imagine every last word you said here...That is exactly, word for word, what my father truly believed about my program experience.
It has taken nearly 20 years to finally start explaining to my father, in very small doses I might add, exactly how much damage & pain that program caused me, and to finally have the guts to tell him the place routinely abused children, and routinely employed practices including coercion, humilation, etc...just to name a few, to get the "miraculous changes" you spoke of.
Know why I kept all this from him? Aside from the fact that I just didn't want to think about it much less talk about it, I just didn't have the heart to tell him. Because I know he put me in Straight because he cared that much about me and truly thought he was doing the right thing. Not to mention the fact that Straight was an expert on playing on a parent's worst fears, by telling them I would end up dead or in jail if he didn't place me there. Anyway, I knew revealing what really went on in that place would break his heart.
So, although I would be happy for you and your daughter if that program experience was truly beneficial, I hope that you consider that there is another possibility, and there is a whole other side to the program debate. ::rainbow::
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"What you're saying is that you'll only talk with program sycophants"
Hellllooooo..... would I be here if my only interest was talking with sycophants. I think not.
I am trying to have meaningful discourse. But, it is a little difficult when one is met by hostility and judgment. How can we have meaningful discourse when all I am able to do is talk from a defensive position. Good grief.... I'm not the enemy, except perhaps in your own mind.
"What is your purpose of posting here?"
Well if you refer to my original post, that would answer your questions. No hidden agenda.
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What hostility and judgement? Someone asked you a perfectly reasonable question and you went all paranoid. I suspect there's a good reason why you don't want to talk about the program where you placed your daughter. I expect that it's probably one with which we're all very well familiar.
I do not believe in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance.
--Thomas Carlyle
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Nonconformistlaw~
Thank you for sharing that with me. That is why I am here. Do I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I did the right thing? No. I probably will never know that. Anymore than knowing that weaning her at 12 months instead of 24 months was the "right" thing.
I only know that I did not know what else to do.
If it was the wrong decision, I am open to her telling me that. I am even open to telling parents to never send a child to a program, if I come to believe that it is never beneficial and never a resort (even a last one). Since we placed our daughter people are coming out of the woodwork to talk to us about our decision. And I feel some responsibility to them and their children before sharing our experience. I would never want to steer someone toward a placement if it is not in the best interest of that family.
I honestly came to this forum to learn about other people's experiences. But, God, I'm about ready to pack my bags, as I can't seem to get some others to understand my true desire to see the other side of the same coin.
I guess the label "parent" has labeled me as a pariah.
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On 2005-08-13 09:51:00, Truth Searcher wrote:
I guess the label "parent" has labeled me as a pariah.
No, that's not it. There are quite a lot of parents who post to these forums regularly. It's got to be something else. Government can do something for the people only in proportion as it can do something to the people
Thomas Jefferson.
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"What hostility and judgment?" OMG Antigen... you can't be serious. This must certainly be a rhetorical question.
How about ....
"you're going to discredit what she went through because you still want to play victim and have a pity party and celebrate how 'strong' you are?" for starters.
If you don't feel that this has been a hostile post, and the judgment has been doled out generously then I question your sensitivity toward such matters.
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That's just one person. Several others just want to know which program we're talking about. It just seems a little crazy to try and have this discussion w/o knowing that basic fact.
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.
--Philosopher, Blaise Pascal
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What you may not know, is that unless your daughter was in a very unique and 'exceptional' program, she would have frequently heard those exact words. And possibly much worse.
In which case, would she have been the victim of hostility and judgement OR involved in a 'therapeutic' process?
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On 2005-08-13 10:20:00, Antigen wrote:
"That's just one person. Several others just want to know which program we're talking about. It just seems a little crazy to try and have this discussion w/o knowing that basic fact. Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.
--Philosopher, Blaise Pascal
"
Oy vey. Enough already. Get ready for the next installment of "Deflection Theater."
People like this DON'T WANT REAL DEBATE. They just want to hear themselves talk and, as Niles correctly pointed out, have pity parties for themselves when others don't subscribe to their point of view.
If she tells you the name of the program, she'll have to live with the "consequences." Poeple are going to disturb the little vacuum bubble she lives in. She's too afraid to have her viewpoint challenged and maybe have to reevaluate her position/thinking.
That ain't gonna happen. I can tell you that right now. It's unprogramerican to think critically.
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality"
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2005-08-13 11:06 ]
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I am not anon, I always state my name, and so because others have failed we all give up is that the attitude? I am not giving up on these kids and am not asking you Ginger to Censor at all that is not a good way to go either. I am asking that people understand that parents do things sometimes out of desperation and it is not my role or the role of anyone elses to fault them for it, can't they be informed without being bashed? I again post my name at the bottom of my posts and do it all the time so please don't confuse me with others.
Andrea
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Truthsearcher said-----"I guess the label "parent" has labeled me as a pariah."
Although I am not trying to speak for everyone, if you read other threads, you will notice that certain trolls, usually posting as anonymous, always stir things up, regularly slander people posting her, never support their positions, refuse to supply facts for their position, are always extremely secretive, and label program survivors as liars every chance they get. Motives of such individuals are highly suspect, and so I believe many people here get very "defensive" if someone comes across the way I just described. Not saying you are these things mind you, just trying to shed some light on why you might feel as though you've been labled as a "pariah parent."
That said, I can say from personal experience here, that it is extremeny frustrating when a parent comes along, talks about how great these programs are, and absolutely refuses to listen to the other side. I for one am very sensitive and react strongly to such individuals because I KNOW how horrifying many of these places can be. Maybe this comes across as hostile sometimes, maybe it doesn't.
Again, not trying to speak for everyone, but it's clear that posters here have extremely strong feelings about programs or else the would be here. And their feelings are valid, including mine and yours, and even the feelings of the "hostile ones." BTW, there are plenty of parents here that get quite a lot of good feedback.
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NCL, check your pm's...
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Yup, NCL makes a good point. It seems extremely unlikely to me that naming the program of which you speak would in any way compromise your privacy or reveal your identity. I'm assuming you're not the only family ever enroled in said program, correct? Ok then... so what could be the source of your great aprehension? Are you afraid you'll find out things about your favorite program that you'd rather not know? That seems most likely.
I am asking that people understand that parents do things sometimes out of desperation and it is not my role or the role of anyone elses to fault them for it, can't they be informed without being bashed?
Yes! Absolutely. A better question might be whether they can be informed w/o perceiving it as a personal attack. In my experience, usually not. Usually, they perceive it as a personal attack and then start casting disparriaging remarks in the direction of the perceived attacker.
It usually goes something like this
Program vet: "You're making a big mistake! Those people are lying to you about what they're doing to your kid. Don't believe them! Go get your kid asap!"
Program parent: "How dare you accuse me of abusing my child! You're such a meanie! I refuse to expose myself to this sort of abuse! Boo Hoo!"
(back at ST)
"I don't think it's safe for us to even LOOK at that forum! Those people are viscious! You should see what they said to me! No wait, don't look! It might be dangerous!"
Any excuse to avoid facing the facts. That's why the industry is such a mess.
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is
proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in
everlasting ignorance- that principle is contempt prior to investigation.
--Herbert Spencer
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"It's umprogramerican to think critically."
Unprogramerican?
Should be added to the randon quotes.
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***I again post my name at the bottom of my posts and do it all the time so please don't confuse me with others.
Just curious Andrea, why you don't use the PFRR log in you registered? Sure would make finding posts easier.
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We have tried to discuss specific programs before. Those on this board will not consider ANY positive things about programs. ALL wilderness programs are abusive and the kids are starved and forced to hike for hourse. ALL TBSs are isolating and brain wash the kids. And-you can count on Dysfunctional Dysfunction to resort to insults and swearing when he decides he has heard enough. If you look at ANY of the threads where parents (and kids) have been sucked into revealing the names of programs you will see the same hostility and inability to be reasonable. And here you are again asking for a program name? Don't think so. This woman needs to post over on strugglingteens and ask for private messages regarding the program. She will get honest and insightful responses from families who actually have experience with that particular program.
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On 2005-08-13 11:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"We have tried to discuss specific programs before. Those on this board will not consider ANY positive things about programs. ALL wilderness programs are abusive and the kids are starved and forced to hike for hourse. ALL TBSs are isolating and brain wash the kids. And-you can count on Dysfunctional Dysfunction to resort to insults and swearing when he decides he has heard enough. If you look at ANY of the threads where parents (and kids) have been sucked into revealing the names of programs you will see the same hostility and inability to be reasonable. And here you are again asking for a program name? Don't think so. This woman needs to post over on strugglingteens and ask for private messages regarding the program. She will get honest and insightful responses from families who actually have experience with that particular program."
Let me validate you real quick: Fuck you. :wave:
Oh, by the way, shut the fuck up, too.
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truth searcher, I am not directing anything in this post towards you, but you may find it interesting nonetheless---
Anonymous said--- "Deborah is psycho."---- If you will notice this was an unprovoked Troll attack on Deborah---
BTW Deborah, for what its worth, you are clearly an enlightened person...I for one, unlike certian trolls, recognize the validity of your points.
My point is, once again a troll has launched an unprovoked attack on page 3 of this thread.
This is precisely why things got ugly very fast. People started fighting back for good reason and I think it also got a little confusing who said what....
So anonymous, I think to sit there and accuse DJ or anyone else for that matter, of resorting to insults etc., is hypocritical when YOU and other trolls routinely sling insults without provocation, then twist it around and make it look like you are the victim of insults.
And, if you noticed anonymous, I clearly said in the thread you are refering to, that if you had good program information to share, I would be all ears despite my skepticism. You apparantly chose to ignore my willingness to discuss your experience. Which makes it crystal clear that you are not remotely interested in any views other than your own. [ This Message was edited by: on 2005-08-13 12:25 ]
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Are you implying that other's "insults, swearing, hostility, and inability to be reasonable" are a literal impediment to your ability to post your opinions/experience?
Or is this more a personal limitation. You'd prefer to discuss the industry with those who, by order of the site moderator, will not say anything critical or emotional... unless of course, it is about those damned 'odd struggling teens'
Ya know buddy, you have the option of scrolling on past those 'offensive' posts. No one forcing you to read anything that insults your sensibilities.
FYI, refusing to interact with someone unless s/he presents information and opinion in the way you consider palatable is a form of manipulation, and most often prejudice and unresolved personal issues.
[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2005-08-13 13:06 ]
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Deborah, go take another Prozac and relax.
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:silly: Another trolling ad hominem attacker with nothing useful to contribute.
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On 2005-08-13 11:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
This woman needs to post over on strugglingteens and ask for private messages regarding the program. She will get honest and insightful responses from families who actually have experience with that particular program.
Really? When did Lon change the policy? Did he finally do away with the little whistle blower icon?
Here's the real deal. If you post here, you get all kinds of different viewpoints. If you post at ST, you get one brand of opinion publicly and, privately, the kind that REALLY can't stand public scrutiny. Neither in my private life nor in my writings, have I ever made a secret of being an out-and-out unbeliever.
--Sigmund Freud, Austrian-born psychologist
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Deborah I can't remember my password I tried for a few and remembered it but then forgot it. Life has too many passwords for me I will make another attempt.
Also on ST they do not let you post publically about the programs or mention names of programs so how can anyone find out the truth?
Andrea
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Only took a minute...
`a
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Hey, I can always reset a password if I can be very sure the request is coming from the real owner.
There lives more faith, in honest doubt,
Believe me, than in half the creeds.
Alfred Lord Tennyson
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Kewl thanks but I know the password now, today anyway! I have passwords for work, home, bank, Credit Cards, Forums, Puters, etc. sometimes it is just easier to not use it also but I will be mindful that it helpful in folks knowing who is really posting.
Andrea
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On strugglingteens you can post in the Program Questions section and get private responses. These responses are a lot more valid than those on this forum. And, no, they are NOT all pro-program. I have offered a lot of criticisms of various programs when posts have been made in that section.
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Yes you can post and can get private responses in a way that is not all inclusive wouldn't you say? To have the information out there and up front is the best thing. I know of Ed Consultants who refer to programs that have loads of lawsuits against them due to abuses, that have operated and shut down in states and opened up in other states under other names, that are not licensed, that administer medication, restraint, education, and more and still won't license - shall I go on?
I actually like Lon - I do not appreciate though the censored or controlled board - but that is their business as it is their board. I am starting a forum where parents can tell the truth - where program names can be mentioned (with a disclaimer from my organization) and where parents can find out that their are reputable programs who allow their children to speak to them and see them, that their are other alternatives than sending a child away, and that providers should be licensed and meet standards.
Andrea
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sorry, nothing honest here! Just soap opera smut!
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You just keep on telling yourself that.
There is nothing so likely to produce peace as to be well prepared to meet the enemy.
--George Washington
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PERR: could you list, SAY THREE (3) of these REPUTABLE PROGRAMS that you know about? Just three that I could check out? That would be very nice of you to share that information with everyone.
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Carlbrook, Oakley, Montana Academy, Second Nature, SUWS, Swift River- all reputable.
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None of the schools you listed are reputable at all in my opinion. ASW is not licensed in MA for one.
Three huh? Well none of them are perfect but reputable...Does a good job, includes families, doesn't cut kids off from parents, are not locked most Residential Schools in MA are all of the above the ones that are licensed but here are three!
1. Eagleton
2. Walker Home and School
3. Germaine Lawrence
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On 2005-08-13 20:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Carlbrook, Oakley, Montana Academy, Second Nature, SUWS, Swift River- all reputable."
You're joking, right?
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http://www.gacpd.com/ (http://www.gacpd.com/)
SUWS
A mother in Georgia contacted
GACPD to find out if a wilderness
camp, SUWs of the Carolinas,
located in the Nantahala Forest in
the mountains of North Carolina,
was a licensed mental health
facility. Her son had been sent to
the camp by his guardian for about
$10,000 for a couple of weeks (the
mother was not the guardian). A
thorough investigation found that
the ?wilderness camp,? advertised
as providing mental health
treatment, was not licensed. In
fact, the state?s Division of Facility
Services (DFS), which issues
mental health licenses, had never
heard of the camp. A DFS staff and
the GACPD western regional
DANET advocate visited the camp
and found minimal
accommodations. The children
were given little food and did not
have adequate sleeping quarters or
adequate hygiene supplies. DFS demanded
that the camp management bring the facility up
to licensing standards or leave the state.
When the camp did not respond, DFS issued a
letter demanding closure. The camp
responded immediately to proceed with
meeting the licensing requirements. Both DFS
and GACPD are continuing to monitor this
facility.
old.valleyadvocate.com/
ASW
It cited the school for "using behavior management techniques which subject students to verbal abuse, ridicule and humiliation, denial of sufficient sleep, and repetitive exercise as a response to an infraction of a rule."
OCCS also cited the school for monitoring students' telephone calls and mail. The agency said that the right to privacy in communications, even for juveniles, can be restricted only by court order -- for example, if a therapist believes that the teen's communication should be monitored, perhaps to support a young person through a crisis in relations with his or her family -- and then only temporarily.
The citation struck at another bone of contention between the state and ASR. A few months ago OCCS found itself at odds with ASR over whether the school needs to be licensed in Massachusetts as a treatment center, something College Health Enterprises had not done. ASR officials seemed to be having it both ways by enforcing rules usually associated withtreatment programs for people with emotional or behavioral disorders, but refusing to have the school licensed as a treatment center, which would give OCCS the right to oversee its operations. The disagreement is still unresolved, and has turned into a battle between lawyers for the state and the school.
I don't have time today to provide all the documentation necessary, but here's a head start anyway.
These programs have been proven unlicensed/unaccredited/abusive. There's tons of literature to back up that claim.
Anon, you need to do some fact-checking before you advise parents about "reputable" facilities. That is, unless you're just after the referral fee...
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality"
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2005-08-14 08:05 ]
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Dysfunction maybe you better do your homework, if I did not know where the or rather from whom the comment was coming I would have been offended but I take it from where it comes. I would never take a referral fee, nor do I refer to programs so if you did your homework you would have known that now wouldn't you have?
I am interested though in the ASR article and how old it is. ASR is not licensed and stands by it's claim although I disagree.
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On 2005-08-14 07:23:00, PFRR wrote:
"Dysfunction maybe you better do your homework, if I did not know where the or rather from whom the comment was coming I would have been offended but I take it from where it comes. I would never take a referral fee, nor do I refer to programs so if you did your homework you would have known that now wouldn't you have?
I am interested though in the ASR article and how old it is. ASR is not licensed and stands by it's claim although I disagree.
"
Andrea, I'm beginning to think you might be slightly retarded. Do you even read anything?
Where did I mention you or the programs you listed? Clearly my response was to the poster WHO WAS QUOTED IN MY POST, not you.
Why do you seem to think everything written is about or in reference to you? Where did I quote you? When did I refer to you? When did I address either you or any comments you have made?
And I need to do MY "homework."
Get involved with REALITY, lady. Get out of your own head and into what's ACTUALLY POSTED, not your "version" of it.
Are you stupid or just careless? Either way, you're tedious.
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On 2005-08-14 07:23:00, PFRR wrote:
"Dysfunction maybe you better do your homework, if I did not know where the or rather from whom the comment was coming I would have been offended but I take it from where it comes. I would never take a referral fee, nor do I refer to programs so if you did your homework you would have known that now wouldn't you have?
I am interested though in the ASR article and how old it is. ASR is not licensed and stands by it's claim although I disagree.
"
Andrea, I'm beginning to think you might be slightly retarded. Do you even read anything?
Where did I mention you or the programs you listed? Clearly my response was to the poster WHO WAS QUOTED IN MY POST, not you.
Why do you seem to think everything written is about or in reference to you? Where did I quote you? When did I refer to you? When did I address either you or any comments you have made?
And I need to do MY "homework."
Get involved with REALITY, lady. Get out of your own head and into what's ACTUALLY POSTED, not your "version" of it.
Are you stupid or just careless? Either way, you're tedious.
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Dysfunction- YOU are probably the main reason there is no consistent dialogue on this forum. How old was that article you quoted? There are many families who have had excellent experiences with SUWS.
You are arrogant and a snotty brat. YOU are the one who is tedious.
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On 2005-08-14 08:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Dysfunction- YOU are probably the main reason there is no consistent dialogue on this forum. How old was that article you quoted? There are many families who have had excellent experiences with SUWS.
You are arrogant and a snotty brat. YOU are the one who is tedious. "
So don't read what I write. If you don't like it, lump it. If I'm so tedious, why are you one of my most loyal readers? Just can't get enough can you?
Always have to have the last word, don't you? Isn't that the type of behavior that you used to rationalize sending your kid away?
I'm a "brat," now am I?
I know far more about these programs than you probably ever will.
Regardless of the age of the "article," (actually a report issued by North Carolina Governor's Advocacy Council for Persons with Disabilities - I guess you're now going to say that the report is bogus?), the point is that SUWS was (or is) operating an unlicensed, unaccredited program.
They resisted regulation vehemently until they were issued an order by their state government to cease and desist business operations. Now THAT'S a reputable provider.
I appear arrogant to you because you are ignorant. In your ignorance, you rail against facts that destroy your credibility.
"Blessed are the ignorant."
Carry on living in your little bubble, dimwit.
Don't be mad at me because you couldn't handle being a parent and had to give up all your little material goodies so you could afford to send your kid off to an unlicensed, unaccredited, confimedly abusive program.
I think it's peotic justice that "your program" left you broke and bitter. I get a kick out of that.
You're just like any other victim of a scam artist - too embarrassed to admit you were had, that you're a sucker. You got taken for a $50,000 babysitter. Face facts. Own up. Move on.
By the way, I've got a nice bridge in Brooklyn that's for sale. After you pay me for it, you can jump off...[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2005-08-14 08:32 ]
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Dysfunction is not a parent Anonymous, he is a former employee of at least two other TBS's who either had a bad experience working at those places or doesn't like the industry anymore, or cannot work for facilities anymore due to his criminal record. His experience with facilities would be from an employee's perspective. He also has a history of getting quite ugly and condescending with his language towards others who choose to disagree with him or who criticize his point of view. So don't take it personally, it's just his Modus Operandi.
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On 2005-08-14 08:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Dysfunction is not a parent Anonymous, he is a former employee of at least two other TBS's who either had a bad experience working at those places or doesn't like the industry anymore, or cannot work for facilities anymore due to his criminal record. His experience with facilities would be from an employee's perspective. He also has a history of getting quite ugly and condescending with his language towards others who choose to disagree with him or who criticize his point of view. So don't take it personally, it's just his Modus Operandi."
WHAT? Facts? You're out in left field now.
I think you'll say anything for a referral fee or free month for the kid you failed to raise.
Get a life.
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality"
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2005-08-14 09:08 ]
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He can't possibly be an adult- if so, he truly needs to get a life. I agree that he was probably fired from some programs and has a personal axe to grind.
P.S. My kid did not go to SUWS.
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Two suckers commiserating over their failures.
Both trolling this message board incessantly. Both abject failures as parents. Both incapable of raising a child and telling others to get a life.
Pathetic.
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I am neither a parent with a child in a program nor a consultant. I am also not an employee of any program. I stated facts as you have presented them yourself on this topic and other topics here at the Fornits site. Facts? Yes they are facts, Dysfunction Junction. Facts that you stated about yourself.
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And you know we are failures as parents HOW? You know us? Our kids? Our histories? Nope- just more name calling by the moronic Dysfunctional mis-fit.
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Fact One: This post shows Dysfunction Junction worked at Daytop at one time. It also shows that he had a felony conviction and prison sentance.
Fact Two: He no longer works in the TBS field. According to him he got disillusioned with the industry. I suspect he isn't allowed to be employed by them with a previous felony conviction as most TBS's do background checks for most of their employees usually.
Fact Three: He is an adult.
Dysfunction Junction
A regular around here
Joined: 2005-03-06
Posts: 302
From: New York
daytop '95
Posted: 2005-03-09 05:44:00
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hey angela,
good to hear your news. george always was a bright guy. he pulled himself up by his bootstraps after about a 10 year bid for armed robbery and a terrible drug habit. i always figured he would rise above and go beyond.
i was not there for the incident you mentioned and lanza was still "acting" director when i left.
i have departed the mental health field for good. the system is just soooo broken that it's hard to do good work for one's clients. i worked for a while doing mental health claims reviews for Wellcare (an HMO), but found the same sort of problems there. i was told always to initially deny coverage and fight it out to pay as little as possible. again, patients being cheated out of care they desperately need. it's sickening.
i am now a mcse (microsoft certified systems engineer) and working on an MBA and work as an engineer for a major player in the computed radiography field.
if your friend speaks to george, please have her pass on my regards, ok?
i wonder if i know who your friend might be? in any case, good for her!
take care,
steve
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Dysfunction-
Please refrain from using words such as Retarded as the Mother of a now adult man living with Autism I find it offensive even ingnorant on your part. If I am mistaken then I apologize for miss reading the post, but frankly I don't believe I did at any rate, to use abusive words is childish and ignorant.
For someone who claims to be as educated as you are and very well may be to use the language you have used, to say you worked in the Mental Health field and respond to people in the very hostile and abusive manner in which you do, leads one to believe the several reasons as to why I personally am thankful you are no longer in the field. Pretty Scary world out there to think that someone who still uses words like retarded and responds in abusive ways could have even worked in the field of Mental Health, as this type of behavior is part of the problem not the solution.
Please excuse my anger fellow posters but really the language in describing people can be offensive, is archiach, and frankly ignorant in this matter.
Andrea[ This Message was edited by: PFRR on 2005-08-14 09:35 ]
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"who either had a bad experience working at those places or doesn't like the industry anymore"
This is your OPINION. What is a fact is that I worked for a facility that is held out as one of the very best in the industry and I saw horrible child abuse going on there daily.
I saw parents pay $4000.00 per month to have their kid berated, humiliated, starved, sleep deprived, forced into labor, beaten and worse. THOSE are the facts.
It's not that I don't "like" the industry anymore. It's that the "industry" is full of people who abuse children for money.
The difference between you and me is that I call it what it is - abusive - and you actively recruit others to subject their children to this horror.
Therein lies the true difference between us. You ACTIVELY ADVOCATE the abuse of children.
Frame it up however you like. You're simply an accessory to the crimes commited against helpless children. Plain and simple.
I also don't believe for one second that you're not a program parent. If you didn't have a VESTED INTEREST in supporting these places, your vision would be clear. You exhibit all of the symptoms...
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It would probably be helpful to people if you would be specific when saying you in your posts, I myself could not nor would not even want to begin to think what is going on in your head, or assume anything. There are a lot of you's out there!
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On 2005-08-14 09:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Fact One: This post shows Dysfunction Junction worked at Daytop at one time. It also shows that he had a felony conviction and prison sentance.
Fact Two: He no longer works in the TBS field. According to him he got disillusioned with the industry. I suspect he isn't allowed to be employed by them with a previous felony conviction as most TBS's do background checks for most of their employees usually.
Fact Three: He is an adult. "
Fact Four: TWO treatment facilities where you folks like to send your kids hired me with full knowledge of my legal standing. I disclosed to them, but they never did a background check and had not the slightest care nor hesitation to hire me.
Again, you're spouting, but have the facts wrong.
And, apparently, you think it's just fine for "most" places to do background checks on "most" of their employees "usually."
Sounds like your version of the industry really has its act together. You've killed your own argument, as you've done many times before.
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality"
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2005-08-14 09:41 ]
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Why would a parent have a vested interest in supporting programs? No one wants a family to have to send their child to a program. However, if there is a need and all other options have been exhausted, there are parents who have been through it who can help and support the parents who are just beginning the process. Our goal as parents is to support each other and counter the abuse you inflict on innocent parents who mistakenly come to this site for information and advice. These parents should not be made to feel ashamed or neglectful as parents because it is necessary to seek treatment outside the home for their kids.
Many of us have experiences with programs that are supportive and in no way abusive.
You, on the other hand, take your anger and your narrow little life and use it to hurt and insult others.
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Most would be teachers, counselors, etc....some not being subjected to background checks might be receptionists or kitchen employees.
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"Abused parents." Now that's rich.
Throw another pity party for yourselves while neglecting your kids needs. Typical.
The vested interest comes from the free months you get from referring others who sign contracts. It's also a psychological and financial investment you made by paying tons of money out to these places. Nobody wants to admit getting snookered. It's painful, and I understand that.
I'll help you on your road to recovery. Repeat after me: "It's hard to admit, but I was suckered out of lots of money. I was sold a bill of goods. I didn't do what was necessary to raise my kid. I copped out. I'm making a commitment not to do it again, nor to advise others to do the same."
See, it's not that hard.
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On 2005-08-14 09:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Most would be teachers, counselors, etc....some not being subjected to background checks might be receptionists or kitchen employees. "
So it's just fine to have a child rapist as a cook or janitor, just not a counselor or teacher?
You're really out there...
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How could you have disclosed your previous conviction to two former employers Dysfunction when you said yourself in this post to never tell?
Dysfunction Junction
A regular around here
Joined: 2005-03-06
Posts: 304
From: New York
Posted: 2005-05-19 06:30:00
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I personally would advise never to tell. Nothing good can come from it. Only REAL possibility is getting terminated on the spot.
DEFINITELY don't tell, even when asked.
The laws are all fucked up, yes. I ended up getting hit with 1-3 in NYS system for my first and only pop - no sale involved. However, I was CHARGED with A Class felony which carries 25-life in NY.
If I weren't a great dealer making lots of money, I could never have come up with the shoebox full of cash required for my lawyer's $25,000 retainer and $1000/court day fees and the subsequent dropping of the A, B, and C Class felonies for which I was charged.
I call it "Capital Punishment." If you have capital, you don't get punished...
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality"
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That's my advice to others in certain situations, yes. Go back and read the thread, and you'll see that this was someone who was already gainfully employed and was considering making a disclosure.
I advised against this because one, it wasn't germane to his line of work, and two, people can be very discriminatory when it comes to criminal records, even for minor infractions that occurred decades in the past. I didn't see any sense in this fellow opening himself up to losing his job. I think that's pretty responsible advice.
In the interest of ETHICS and working in a field where it's important to be forthright and honest, I chose to disclose to my potential employers.
Would you have preferred that I lied?
Why did you shift the focus instead of answering the question? For you, it's perfectly fine to take the risk of a child rapist having contact with your child because the facility doesn't do background checks?
Shouldn't you be more concerned with the policies of the places that hired me without a background check, rather than my complete honesty in disclosure?
Seems like you'll say anything to attack me while completely avoiding the fact that the people you support are negligent...
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality"
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2005-08-14 10:02 ][ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2005-08-14 10:41 ]
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You know, there is nothin lower than throwing someone's past in there face to discredit them. Please stick to the original dispute. This is maddening!Many people, including myself, have a past, and its so long ago it shouldn't even be an issue! It appears to me that dysfunction was been able to straighten his/her life out. Its detestable anonymous, to sink to such depths as to spend so much of your time hunting for "dirt" on someone, then waiting for the opportunity to throw it in their face when it suits your own twisted purposes.
Seems to me it is you, anonymous, that has NO LIFE!
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Sticking to the issues is just not possible for these folks. They have a compulsion to avoid factual discussion.
Thanks for your input, though.
See, the facts are that I have nothing to hide nor defend. I am what I am, for better or for worse. I've overcome a lot of handicaps (self-imposed and otherwise) in my life and have become quite successful, both financially and personally.
The reason I went to college for six long years to work as a therapist is because I thought I could help kids avoid the problems that I had gone through. I was idealistic and hopeful, and fully expectant that my hopes would come true.
What I found was that the "business" of "teen help" is a nasty, for-profit, unethical, unregulated and ultimately harmful industry.
I worked at two different facilities, the second one in hopes that the first was just a "bad place." What I found, through my experience and through copious research, is that the vast majority of facilities are just like the ones for which I worked.
I left the industry because the industry itself prevented caring people like myself from actually helping any children.
The facilities are warehouses, holding pens if you will, designed solely for the purpose of extracting the maximim dollar from desperate parents with hurting children.
It is a violation of the code of ethics I swore to uphold to purposefully deny proper treatment to my clients. I felt it was no longer appropriate to continue to work in the TBS business, so I left.
I have no agenda, no dog in the race. These other folks do.
I just want to see hurting children healed.
Unfortunately, these places just aren't effective at doing so, and all of the independent research proves it, including detailed longitudinal studies conducted under the authority of the Surgeon General of the United States.
I don't deign to understand why these people will go to such lengths to defend an obviously defective modality. All I can say for sure is that they must have a vested interest to do so, or they wouldn't do it.
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This is more like it. How about changing the subject to how I was self destructing but still managed to turn myself around and still make something of myself in spite of all the madness of these stupid places? Now that is something worth talking about! Good for you dysfunction.
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On 2005-08-14 09:37:00, PFRR wrote:
"It would probably be helpful to people if you would be specific when saying you in your posts, I myself could not nor would not even want to begin to think what is going on in your head, or assume anything. There are a lot of you's out there!"
Andrea, I usually quote the particular post with which I take umbrage. I try to be as clear as possible and I think I've done so.
On another note, I need to apologize to you for being so nasty earlier. You certainly didn't deserve to take a hit like that over something so minor.
I got upset when you (mistakenly) thought I was speaking to you in an earlier post and said you'd be offended if you didn't "consider the source," which I took as an unjustified slap at me over your misconception regarding my comments.
I do believe that you do your dead-level best to work hard to raise awareness and bring about change in a very troubled treatment modality and I do not wish to diminish your effort.
Please also understand that the way I respond to hurtful anonymous trolls on a message board in no way shape or form has any bearing on how I relate to actual people in the real world. If you knew me, you'd know that.
I'm aware that I get a bit out of line sometimes, but I assure you that my emotions are stirred only because I am acutely aware of the suffering that these children endure to the end of lining the pockets of shareholders and ed cons. And certain trolls, like the ones on this thread, would seek to continue that suffering through pure ignorance or direct complicity. THAT'S what gets the reaction out of me.
It's a sad state of affairs sometimes.
In any case, once again, I apologize for jumping on you.
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There are probably people out there trying to get rich in this industry.... but think about it, there are way easier ways to make a buck than wilderness therapy or theraputic boarding schools. Heck, become a dirtbag building contractor!
On another note, I just spent a while reading this thread. Lordy it was long. There are some pretty harsh posts in it. If some of you fornits old timers want to run new folks off I can see that it might work. If its just a trial by fire kinda thing I can understand that too but let people know what the intention is. Most of the topics produce stong emotions and opinions are pretty polarized. I like hearing from different sides - keeps things interesting.
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On 2005-08-14 11:46:00, Shortbus wrote:
"There are probably people out there trying to get rich in this industry.... but think about it, there are way easier ways to make a buck than wilderness therapy or theraputic boarding schools. Heck, become a dirtbag building contractor!
On another note, I just spent a while reading this thread. Lordy it was long. There are some pretty harsh posts in it. If some of you fornits old timers want to run new folks off I can see that it might work. If its just a trial by fire kinda thing I can understand that too but let people know what the intention is. Most of the topics produce stong emotions and opinions are pretty polarized. I like hearing from different sides - keeps things interesting.
"
I disagree. I know of few other ways to make THAT MUCH money with no accountablity whatsoever.
Think about it: $4000.00 per month per child in a facility that warehouses, let's say, 100 kids.
That's $4,800,000.00 per year gross income. I know from working in this business, the the "top-end" places (the $4000.00/month type) operate at roughly 40% profit.
So, the owner and any shareholders will whack up $1.92 million in profits yearly.
This leaves just over $2 million for pay, facilities, food, etc. That's plenty to run a campus.
Also, think about places that are charging $300.00-$700.00 per DAY for WILDERNESS "therapy." They're making an ENORMOUS profit.
They give the kids virtually no gear, no facilities, no medical treatment, hardly any food and supply a couple of uneducated, untrained staff that get paid $400.00 per WEEK. Make no mistake about it, they're RAKING IT IN.
If they weren't in it for the money, why would they resist regulation so vehemently?
I'll tell you why. It's because if they're regulated, they will have to provide actual SERVICES and ADEQUATE care, and that costs MONEY, which will have to come out of their pockets.
If they were in it to help children, don't you think they'd want to use the best possible practices as outlined by the government and professional groups like the APA?
If so, why don't they?
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No Gear? My kid came home from wilderness with hundreds of dollars worth of excellent backwoods gear- everything from a pack to parkas and hiking boots. He came home from TBS with a laptop and a PDA.
I don't think you have any concept of what it costs to run these places. Don't forget insurance, benefits for full-time staff, rent or mortgage for the places with extensive facilites.....
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On 2005-08-14 12:24:00, Anonymous wrote:
"No Gear? My kid came home from wilderness with hundreds of dollars worth of excellent backwoods gear- everything from a pack to parkas and hiking boots. He came home from TBS with a laptop and a PDA.
I don't think you have any concept of what it costs to run these places. Don't forget insurance, benefits for full-time staff, rent or mortgage for the places with extensive facilites.....
"
"Hundreds of dollars" worth of stuff.. Let's see, that's about one half of one day's fee. How generous.
"A laptop and PDA," too. That's about five day's worth of fees. Very generous indeed.
"Send your kid to us for 18 months of reprogramming and receive a free laptop and PDA!"
Great advertising gimmick.
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality"
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2005-08-14 14:00 ]
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The previous poster was pointing out how full of shit you are Dysfunction- you claimed the kids were given no gear and he proved you wrong. Everything you say is just fiction and it is nice to have someone point it out. The issue wasn't wether the gear was worth the fees. It was that the kids were not out in the wilderness without equipment. You LOVE to dodge the issues, don't you. And you accuse others of doing that!!!
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They're totally clueless that they actually 'paid' for those 'freebies'.
Can we say more program deception and manipulation?
Nothing is 'free'.
Do they actually tell the parents that the stuff is free, a 'gift'? Or supplies purchased with tuition money?
Wilderness probably sends the stuff home because they can't legally give it to someone else to wear due to reasons of hygiene, and because the parents did pay for it. Probably serves as a good reminder for the kid too- better stay in line. Your gear is packed and ready to go if need be.
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Oh, Deborah, I'm so glad you weighed in here with another stupid post. The issue wasn't the cost of the gear- it was the care given to the students in the programs. Remember- you claim they are all abused and left to rot in deep pits in the ground. You can't stand the concept that they are actually given top-notch equipment and are learning a respect for nature and the outdoors along with their therapy.
It must be time for your Prozac.
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***The previous poster was pointing out how full of shit you are Dysfunction- you claimed the kids were given no gear and HE proved you wrong.
How did Anon2 know that Anon1 was male?
Are Pete and Karen back, tag teaming it anonymously?
There's a difference between "NO gear" and "virtually no gear".
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***Oh, Deborah, I'm so glad you weighed in here with another stupid post. The issue wasn't the cost of the gear- it was the care given to the students in the programs.**
I beg to differ. First mention of gear:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 110#123280 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=11204&forum=9&start=110#123280)
Damn sure wasn?t in the context of 'care given to the students', but of COST TO RUN A PROGRAM.
Try to stay on topic.
While some may develop an appreciation for nature, I think it's more likely that an aversion is created because they are taken to live in nature, with very few provisions as PUNISHMENT.
Top-notch equipment didn't prevent the deaths of 50 some kids. Perhaps 'the care given' is the next worthy issue of discussion.
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"They give the kids virtually no gear, no facilities, no medical treatment, hardly any food and supply a couple of uneducated, untrained staff that get paid $400.00 per WEEK"
This is a flat lie. But what's new- the usual mode of the Fornitscators.
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Here's the deal anon.
If you want to name the program you used or promote, we can certainly evaluate those things specific to that program.
Generally, yes that statement has histoically been proven to be true about the industry.
Fifty-some dead teens speaks loud. Something ain't right with this mode of 'therapy'. If it had been certain rx drugs or an herb that had killed this many teens, it would be off the market.
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On 2005-08-14 12:03:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"
On 2005-08-14 11:46:00, Shortbus wrote:
"There are probably people out there trying to get rich in this industry.... but think about it, there are way easier ways to make a buck than wilderness therapy or theraputic boarding schools. Heck, become a dirtbag building contractor!
On another note, I just spent a while reading this thread. Lordy it was long. There are some pretty harsh posts in it. If some of you fornits old timers want to run new folks off I can see that it might work. If its just a trial by fire kinda thing I can understand that too but let people know what the intention is. Most of the topics produce stong emotions and opinions are pretty polarized. I like hearing from different sides - keeps things interesting.
"
I disagree. I know of few other ways to make THAT MUCH money with no accountablity whatsoever.
Think about it: $4000.00 per month per child in a facility that warehouses, let's say, 100 kids.
That's $4,800,000.00 per year gross income. I know from working in this business, the the "top-end" places (the $4000.00/month type) operate at roughly 40% profit.
So, the owner and any shareholders will whack up $1.92 million in profits yearly.
This leaves just over $2 million for pay, facilities, food, etc. That's plenty to run a campus.
Also, think about places that are charging $300.00-$700.00 per DAY for WILDERNESS "therapy." They're making an ENORMOUS profit.
They give the kids virtually no gear, no facilities, no medical treatment, hardly any food and supply a couple of uneducated, untrained staff that get paid $400.00 per WEEK. Make no mistake about it, they're RAKING IT IN.
If they weren't in it for the money, why would they resist regulation so vehemently?
I'll tell you why. It's because if they're regulated, they will have to provide actual SERVICES and ADEQUATE care, and that costs MONEY, which will have to come out of their pockets.
If they were in it to help children, don't you think they'd want to use the best possible practices as outlined by the government and professional groups like the APA?
If so, why don't they?
"
In many respects you are right, it still seems like a lot of work to put out a shingle, reel parents in and take their money. It would be so much easier to sit in an internet cafe in Nigeria and send out scam emails! And yeah, after working at programs and knowing how much I got paid and how much they charge parents I have wondered who's getting all the dough. :???: As for regulation, we all know its a mixed blessing. More regulation is not necessarily good regulation. But when talking about caregiving, more regulation is probably a good thing. But if I was a parent looking to send my kid away - whether its to a TBS or YMCA camp, Id do a heck of a lot of research before I acted. If I was coming up empty-handed as is the case with the program that was initially mentioned in this thread, Id probably put that program in the red flag pile.
Wow, who charges $700/day? Most are around $300, I think Adirondack Leadership charges $400+/day. I thought that was high.
_________________
Its never too late to procrastinate[ This Message was edited by: Shortbus on 2005-08-14 17:20 ]
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Um, count again...Im an Anon, and have not posted in the past 5 hours. nobody knows just how many Anons or whether they are female or not. Don't blame all these posts against your positions on two Anons. There are many.
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What???
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The comment about many Anons refers to this post from you Deborah...there are not two Anons...nor do they all know each other. That is just a guess on your part. Obviously there are more than 2 people who disagree with you.
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***The previous poster was pointing out how full of shit you are Dysfunction- you claimed the kids were given no gear and HE proved you wrong.
How did Anon2 know that Anon1 was male?
Are Pete and Karen back, tag teaming it anonymously?
There's a difference between "NO gear" and "virtually no gear".
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Anon 1 posted:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 120#123286 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=11204&forum=9&start=120#123286)
A different anon (2) posted and identified Anon 1 as male.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 120#123303 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=11204&forum=9&start=120#123303)
Or was Anon2, posing as a different person? Quiet possible, as he would certainly know his gender.
Let's see, you said:
nobody knows just how many Anons or whether they are female or not
and:
there are not two Anons
nor do they all know each other
there are more than 2 people who disagree with you.
Don't blame all these posts against your positions on two Anons
There are many.
Sooo, NObody knows, or YOU know.
I really hope the industry gets cleaned up, or another option becomes available to kids, because the more I interact with program parents the more I support the kids being somewhere, anywhere, outside the home. Bless them.
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If you think I have a child currently in a program or had a child in a program previously, you are incorrect. I have never had a child in a program, nor do I work for a facility, nor am I an educational consultant. Just because someone disagrees with your position does not make one a program parent. Sometimes, Deborah, you do not know everything. You assume alot but that does not make it fact. I cannot speak for other Anons posting on this board, but I personally, am no program parent.
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Boy I can see this thread has accomplished a lot in making changes. Divide and conquer more likely.
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I am an Anon who previously had a child in a program. It was a tough stretch, but it was the right thing to do and worked out well for all concerned. I have never worked for a program. I am interested in the field and feel that I know a lot more than Deborah does, which isn't hard.
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Well, I'm beginning to imagine that you might be a little on the scizzy end of the spectrum, and definitely a waste of time.
Enjoy arguing with your 'selves'.
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I think I will take a stab at playing...'guess which troll is hiding under the bag'.
Anon 1 said------"If you think I have a child currently in a program or had a child in a program previously, you are incorrect. I have never had a child in a program, nor do I work for a facility, nor am I an educational consultant. Just because someone disagrees with your position does not make one a program parent. Sometimes, Deborah, you do not know everything. You assume alot but that does not make it fact. I cannot speak for other Anons posting on this board, but I personally, am no program parent."-----
My $ is that this troll, is correct, this troll is not a program parent---but rather, this troll is lawyer Troll.
Anon 2 said ----"I am an Anon who previously had a child in a program. It was a tough stretch, but it was the right thing to do and worked out well for all concerned. I have never worked for a program. I am interested in the field and feel that I know a lot more than Deborah does, which isn't hard."-----
I agree, that this troll is a program parent, and is...let's see Ben's Dad Troll??
How did I do???? :em:
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I am not a lawyer. Why do you care WHAT or WHO the Anon people are? There are obviously many different ones and most probably don't know each other. Once again, it doesn't take a program parent, employee, ed consultant, or lawyer to see through the blind bashing of programs some of which are perfectly fine. Some are not, but the slant of these boards is to make the assumption that every single facility in the United States is a horrible place where abuse takes place daily to every student and where every director/owner, whatever is out to make money and nothing else. A little bizarre to say the least!
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Temper, temper. No need to get so defensive and angry! LUV YA! :lol:
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Angry is definately something I am not. More like amused from some of the reactions on this board ::argue:: :grin:
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But yet very defensive...
....HEY, we finally agree on something at last! You are VERY amusing! Have a wonderful and delightful evening! ::rainbow::
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On 2005-08-14 14:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The previous poster was pointing out how full of shit you are Dysfunction- you claimed the kids were given no gear and he proved you wrong. Everything you say is just fiction and it is nice to have someone point it out. The issue wasn't wether the gear was worth the fees. It was that the kids were not out in the wilderness without equipment. You LOVE to dodge the issues, don't you. And you accuse others of doing that!!!"
Hey moron, this is what I said: "They give the kids virtually no gear, no facilities, no medical treatment, hardly any food and supply a couple of uneducated, untrained staff that get paid $400.00 per WEEK. Make no mistake about it, they're RAKING IT IN."
I guess you must be functionally illiterate. I sad "virtually no gear, " not no gear. I agree they are given some gear. The question is, is a pair of boots, a parka and a backpack adequate equipment to survive in a harsh environment?
Glad to see you didn't argue the point about no facilities and no medical care and not enough food. That shows that you think it's just fine.
It also shows your materialistic nature. You're more concerned that your kid has boots than access to a doctor. You're a REAL WINNER, lady.
How many nights have you spent with minimal gear out in the woods when it's 40 degrees at night?
Probably none.
You were most likely too busy drinking highballs and sniffing cocaine to worry about how junior was doing out there.
"He'll be fine, they're experts. Pass the mirror, will ya? I can't believe the sacrifices we have to make. I could only score TWO grams for the party..." :wave:
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On 2005-08-14 20:18:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I am not a lawyer. Why do you care WHAT or WHO the Anon people are? There are obviously many different ones and most probably don't know each other. Once again, it doesn't take a program parent, employee, ed consultant, or lawyer to see through the blind bashing of programs some of which are perfectly fine. Some are not, but the slant of these boards is to make the assumption that every single facility in the United States is a horrible place where abuse takes place daily to every student and where every director/owner, whatever is out to make money and nothing else. A little bizarre to say the least!"
Name ONE SINGLE PROGRAM that is a not-for-profit.
Name a few that you consider "just fine."
Then we'll have something to talk about.
Probably won't respond, except with vitriol.
"Ben's Full-of-shit-Dad" and "KareninDallas" ride again! Welcome back!
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I don't know either one of those people other than to see their names mentioned on this board. The fact that someone wants to be able to pay their mortgage and car payment and have a 401k does not make a program owner a criminal anyway. Once again, Dysfunction, your generalizations and "know it all" attitude are extremely narrow minded. I find it comical that you think you know who every Anon is :razz:
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On 2005-08-14 19:42:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If you think I have a child currently in a program or had a child in a program previously, you are incorrect. I have never had a child in a program, nor do I work for a facility, nor am I an educational consultant. Just because someone disagrees with your position does not make one a program parent. Sometimes, Deborah, you do not know everything. You assume alot but that does not make it fact. I cannot speak for other Anons posting on this board, but I personally, am no program parent. "
I think you're Karen's sister... :lol:
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On 2005-08-15 07:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I don't know either one of those people other than to see their names mentioned on this board. The fact that someone wants to be able to pay their mortgage and car payment and have a 401k does not make a program owner a criminal anyway. Once again, Dysfunction, your generalizations and "know it all" attitude are extremely narrow minded. I find it comical that you think you know who every Anon is :wstupid:
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality"
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2005-08-15 07:35 ]
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Does it really matter whether a program is not for profit? It usually just means the management staff/owners pull a bigger paycheck.
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On 2005-08-14 20:18:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I am not a lawyer. Why do you care WHAT or WHO the Anon people are? There are obviously many different ones and most probably don't know each other. Once again, it doesn't take a program parent, employee, ed consultant, or lawyer to see through the blind bashing of programs some of which are perfectly fine. Some are not, but the slant of these boards is to make the assumption that every single facility in the United States is a horrible place where abuse takes place daily to every student and where every director/owner, whatever is out to make money and nothing else. A little bizarre to say the least!"
No, usually the anons who hang around for any lenght of time have some direct tie to "the industry". And they often invite ppl they know to join it (as w/ any other area of interest). And people also tend to contact others privately; to make friends after they come along here. So, generally speaking, the anons and the people who post under a handle do know each other to some extent.
It is not at all bizarre to wonder what someone's interest or connection to "the industry" is. In fact, it's rather unusual (though welcome as anything) when someone comes along who has not got a personal stake in it, aside from just a general interest in social affairs. It does happen, but it's not the norm. So it's not the least bit bizarre for someone to assume that an interested, avid reader/poster to these forums has some sort of connection to the industry.
Now, about "the industry". Note that there's not a single forum dedicated to the Groton School or Catholic schools (though there are a good many references and comparisons) They keywords, proper names and terminology all coalesce around that segment of businesses that self identify as "the troubled teen industry." So far, I haven't found a single business operating under that banner, that does not encompass at least some of the old Synanon based methods. It's almost a safe bet that, if it's advertised in the usual parent as pseudo professional consultant type settings, what they're selling is something very similar to that.
Show me one that doesn't fit that profile? Show me one that does not take involuntary students, does provide a means of redress for the student, does not employ controls on communication and other thought reform techniques. Go ahead. Name the damned place, please!
What experiences and history teach is this-that people and government never have learned anything from history, or acted on principles deduced from it.
--G.W.F Hegel (1770-1831)
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http://www.eckerdyouthalternatives.org/ ... tions.html (http://www.eckerdyouthalternatives.org/contribute/donations.html)
http://clk.about.com/?zi=1/XJ&sdn=priva ... school.com (http://clk.about.com/?zi=1/XJ&sdn=privateschool&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thepiedmontschool.com)
http://www.mtcarmelyouthranch.com/ (http://www.mtcarmelyouthranch.com/)
There are more
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OK, then, how about a NON-PROFIT?
Here's an update from the NY Times about the great gear kids get for their "wilderness vacation" :
"Kids are then given standard issue khakis, a T-shirt, a bandanna and a pair of hiking boots. They get a tarp, a wool blanket, 20 feet of parachute cord and 12 feet of strap, and from those items must learn to construct a backpack in which to store their sleeping bags and ground pads, water bottles, water purifier drops, enamel cups and week's supply of food: rice, lentils, raisins and oats."
This refers to RedCliff, one of the "better ones."
Here's some more from the NY Times about KareninDallas and Full-of-Shit Dad:
"I asked Schill about this as we sat talking in the RCA office the evening I returned from the field. "Yeah, we get some pretty low-functioning parents," he said. "Sometimes we'll call the parents to come for the graduation ceremony and they'll say: 'Can you hold my kid for a couple more weeks? We're going to be on vacation.' "
Karen: "Gotta finish up that vacation! The kid cramps our style. Be back in a few weeks. Send me the bill!!"
Some more...
"I could not keep from wondering about their parents. "I'll tell you what," Steve Peterson said to me at the RCA field office. "I'd like to get some of these parents out in the wilderness for a couple of weeks. I had this one dad who called me up saying the program didn't work, and he wanted to send his kid back. I asked him why, and he said, 'Because the kid stole my marijuana stash.' "
Full-of-Shit-Dad: "Ben, you smoked my shit again! That's it, back to wilderness for you. I can't BELIEVE IT!"
Gotta love the hypocritical programmie-types! :nworthy:
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The Reputation Grows
By 1982, the State of Florida, impressed with the success of Eckerd wilderness treatment, asked EYA to operate the first private juvenile justice program in state history. Today, Eckerd operates many juvenile justice programs, each recognized for its positive, rehabilitative approach.
Interesting! I never knew there was such a thing as voluntary participation in juvenile justice programs!
Seriously, I knew a kid in Straight who had been through Stop camp; one of the Eckerd programs. And he was willing to do anything to get back there. Though it was never quite as bizarre or intense as Straight, it was essentially the same program w/ a "wildnerness therapy" wrapper.
I'd love to meet some more people who have been through the Eckerd programs. I bet they'd have much to add to the discussion. I hold it to be the inalienable right of anybody to go to hell in his own way.
--Robert Frost, American poet
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On 2005-08-15 07:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"http://www.eckerdyouthalternatives.org/contribute/donations.html
http://clk.about.com/?zi=1/XJ&sdn=priva ... school.com (http://clk.about.com/?zi=1/XJ&sdn=privateschool&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thepiedmontschool.com)
http://www.mtcarmelyouthranch.com/ (http://www.mtcarmelyouthranch.com/)
There are more
"
Eckerd is COMMUNITY-BASED, not TBS. It's the type of treatment professionals reccommend and has no resemblence to the programs talked about here.
More of you Struggling Turkeys should donate to places like this, rather than sending your kids off for "wilderness therapy, " proven by longitudinal scientific study to be a failure.
Get real, post YOUR PROGRAMS...
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Im not trying to play devils advocate but what kind of gear do you think these kids need when they are out in the desert. If you dont need to worry about bugs or rain do you really need a tent? Especially if the weight of their packs is an issue?
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On 2005-08-15 07:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"http://www.eckerdyouthalternatives.org/contribute/donations.html
http://clk.about.com/?zi=1/XJ&sdn=priva ... school.com (http://clk.about.com/?zi=1/XJ&sdn=privateschool&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thepiedmontschool.com)
http://www.mtcarmelyouthranch.com/ (http://www.mtcarmelyouthranch.com/)
There are more
"
From the HEAL site:
"Mount Carmel Youth Ranch is located in Powell, WY. Based on their own description at their website at http://www.mtcarmelyouthranch.com/long_ ... ogram.html (http://www.mtcarmelyouthranch.com/long_term_program.html) as of 9/1/04 they use a 10-level system to modify behavior. Behavior modification is a clinical euphemism for brainwashing. They also list homosexuality as a mental disease/behavioral problem. Based on this minimum of information we find Mount Carmel Youth Ranch to be suspicious. If you have firsthand experience of abuse or had your rights violated by Mount Carmel Youth Ranch, please contact us so we may post your experience here as a warning to others." Definitely sounds fishy.
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Mike Wiltsie's mom might have a different opinion of Eckerd
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#49926 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=5538&forum=7&start=0#49926)
No charges filed
http://www.sptimes.com/News/022400/Stat ... per_.shtml (http://www.sptimes.com/News/022400/State/No_charges_in_camper_.shtml)
http://www.beachbrowser.com/Archives/Lo ... -Death.htm (http://www.beachbrowser.com/Archives/Local-News/March-2000/Federal-Investigation-Into-Mentally-Ill-Boys-Death.htm)
The boys, ages 11 to 17, are required to keep the campground clean, cook their own meals twice a week and design their own tents.
They definitely have similarities with other BM programs.
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They don't have tents- at least not in most programs. They earn tarps. You need a lot of gear when it is 0 degrees! They have clothes, sleeping bags, eating utensils, fire starting kit (that they make themselves).
Dysfunction- you are so amazingly ignorant and off-base. Do you really think you know all the parents who are posting here? Please go back into treatment and stop being an asshole.
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Dysfunctional- You have absolutely no idea what kind of parents anyone who posts on these boards might be. Your anger and hatred colors your judgement so completely that you are making a total fool out of yourself. It is a shame that you continue to ruin whatever constructive dialogue might occur on this forum.
Look, we are all sorry that you are a failure and that your criminal record haunts you. We're sorry you are lonely and sad. But why the angry attacks on parents? Do you honestly think these people, who are most likely nowhere near this board anymore, care what your opinion of them might be?
I wish Ginger would talk to you privately, because you are really ruining the intent of this website.
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I wasn't asking what students are issued. I am asking what do you think they need? Lets say in desert conditions between 20F and 90F.
This post isnt directed at anyone in particular. Im just curious since theres been discussions about students gear not being adequate, Im wondering what might be considered adequate.
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Its never too late to procrastinate[ This Message was edited by: Shortbus on 2005-08-15 09:51 ]
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On 2005-08-15 09:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
"They don't have tents- at least not in most programs. They earn tarps. You need a lot of gear when it is 0 degrees! They have clothes, sleeping bags, eating utensils, fire starting kit (that they make themselves).
Dysfunction- you are so amazingly ignorant and off-base. Do you really think you know all the parents who are posting here? Please go back into treatment and stop being an asshole."
Do the programs teach people to call others failures or assholes? I would not want to send a child into a program to learn to speak to others that way.
Or perhaps this is your professional diagnosis: asshole.
Treatment plan: Residential Placement
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Dysfunction thats what our systems is based on. Look at the price of gas and Exxon mobile is having record profits. If we still continue to fill up our cars at the same rate the price will continue to rise, if we cut back the price will drop.
If TBS's want to charge $10,000 per day, let them. Its not alot of money for some people and people who cant afford it would move on to other alternatives. Bottom line is the price is set by what people are willing to pay, not by the companies doing the selling.
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First you need to broaden the temp range to maybe -20 and 110. What would you take if you were going to live in those conditions for 3 - 6 months?
The least they should be required to do is own their own land, so they can provide a base camp with cabins. They could hike them all day but sleep them at base where they'd have adequate protection from extreme weather conditions as well as the opportunity for proper hygiene.
It's cheaper to hike them on government land, in the back 40 which makes rescues difficult and time consuming, and doesn't allow for permanent structures to be erected.
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There's another aspect to this, though. The profits in this industry are artificially high because they enjoy an unfair and inequitable advantage. They are not held to the same standards of accountability as the rest of society.
Even when they kill a kid, it's very rare for anyone to even be criminally charged, far less convicted, never mind properly served w/ a punishment that fits the crime. When Charles Long the II gets out of prison in a couple of short years (assuming the other inmates don't find out that he's a child abuser and put him out of our missery) Anthony Haynes will still be quite dead.
The troubled parent industry has invested substantially in public policy and advertising for several decades now. So they're not exposed to a truely free market. I think that if we were truely playing on a level playing field, this industry would not survive, or at least it wouldn't look anything like it does today. So how do we reverse this?To regard Christ as God, and to pray to him, are to my mind the greatest possible sacrilege.
--Leo Tolstoy, Russian revolutionary
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On 2005-08-15 11:05:00, Deborah wrote:
"
First you need to broaden the temp range to maybe -20 and 110. What would you take if you were going to live in those conditions for 3 - 6 months?
The least they should be required to do is own their own land, so they can provide a base camp with cabins. They could hike them all day but sleep them at base where they'd have adequate protection from extreme weather conditions as well as the opportunity for proper hygiene.
It's cheaper to hike them on government land, in the back 40 which makes rescues difficult and time consuming, and doesn't allow for permanent structures to be erected.
"
OK, so broaden temp range. Im guessing it pretty rare that youre out in -20F. I live in Minnesota and the last few years there havent been many days that cold. I believe there are programs out there that set up base camps. Canvas yurts with wood stoves so the students arent setting up tents/tarps every night.
I agree with your point about land ownership. Repeat users in desert areas definately leave their mark. But so do the thousands of head of cattle that are grazed on public lands.
A group can set up a temporary shelter on BLM land and I think maybe they can on forest service land too but Im not positive.
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On 2005-08-15 09:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
"They don't have tents- at least not in most programs. They earn tarps. You need a lot of gear when it is 0 degrees! They have clothes, sleeping bags, eating utensils, fire starting kit (that they make themselves).
Dysfunction- you are so amazingly ignorant and off-base. Do you really think you know all the parents who are posting here? Please go back into treatment and stop being an asshole."
sounds like you're doing a little projection here, parent. mostly it's you who's acted like an asshole and seem to need some treatment.
maybe your program can help you stop projecting and own your behavior. you need it. ::bangin::
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On 2005-08-15 09:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Dysfunctional- You have absolutely no idea what kind of parents anyone who posts on these boards might be. Your anger and hatred colors your judgement so completely that you are making a total fool out of yourself. It is a shame that you continue to ruin whatever constructive dialogue might occur on this forum.
Look, we are all sorry that you are a failure and that your criminal record haunts you. We're sorry you are lonely and sad. But why the angry attacks on parents? Do you honestly think these people, who are most likely nowhere near this board anymore, care what your opinion of them might be?
I wish Ginger would talk to you privately, because you are really ruining the intent of this website."
i can't handle my own problems! ginger! quick, censor the site! i need homogeneity quick!
wah wah wah :cry2:
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Anon, you said------"Dysfunctional- You have absolutely no idea what kind of parents anyone who posts on these boards might be. Your anger and hatred colors your judgement so completely that you are making a total fool out of yourself. It is a shame that you continue to ruin whatever constructive dialogue might occur on this forum.
Look, we are all sorry that you are a failure and that your criminal record haunts you. We're sorry you are lonely and sad. But why the angry attacks on parents? Do you honestly think these people, who are most likely nowhere near this board anymore, care what your opinion of them might be?
I wish Ginger would talk to you privately, because you are really ruining the intent of this website."----------
I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Despite all the mudslinging from both sides, DJ, unlike you, or other trolls, always makes extremely good points, gives facts to support arguments, asks reasonable questions, and presents both his points and questions in such a way that demands attention. Despite all the ugliness, sometimes there IS a value in "demanding attention" so to speak.
But anon, YOU chose to focus on the ugliness, instead of the message. I might also add, you know perfectly well, that you trolls instigate a hell of a lot more nastiness and ugliness than anyone.
You dont happen to have a mirror around do you? ::rainbow::
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On 2005-08-15 09:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
I wish Ginger would talk to you privately, because you are really ruining the intent of this website.
DJ! Go to your room this instant and think about respecting your elders! Woops! Sorry, I forgot... I'm not DJ's mama.
How's it going getting info on New Horizons? Any luck getting the parents to wake up and pay attention?Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? ... If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?
-- Patrick Henry
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Are we talking about New Horizons Youth Ministry? Escuela Caribe? We do have some info on that. That second thread has links to some other forums and a book about the place.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=6659&forum=9 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=6659&forum=9)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=5305&forum=9 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=5305&forum=9)To be an atheist requires strength of mind and goodness of heart found in not one of a thousand.
--Samuel Taylor Coleridge, English poet, critic, journalist, philosopher
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Found this statement. Points out both positive and negative things:
Our son was at the ranch for just under 6 months. Rosie and Tom Harrell and their staff are good living people with servant hearts and a love for those in their care. In just over a month, our son, D, gained 20 pounds got a great tan and looked healthy and strong. The meals are amazing for the boys. We were able to visit a few times during this time and were welcomed by all. We spent Thanksgiving with D at the ranch which was a gift. The ranch life is very busy and there are many needs and challenges that they deal with to the best of their ability. In some ways, Tom and Rosie may have saved his life and we will always be grateful. We were in a desperate place and the ranch came highly recommended as a place where D would receive the best care. The ranch has been a healing place for many boys and families. They run two homes and they do their best. Our son turned 18 while at the ranch. The reason we sent him there was due to substance abuse. In my opinion, the ranch is a wonderful place for the those with defiance issues etc, but they are not qualified to treat serious problems such as addiction. The most recent research shows that addiction has four different stages: recreational, experimental, self-medicating, and full addiction. Professionals are required at the last stage. In our situation, despite many phone calls, he never received any treatment from a qualified counsellor or a doctor. Would it have made a difference? Who knows? The appointments were never made. The promised weekly phone calls rarely came, and it was very stressful. To be fair, the ranch was undergoing much change while D was there. They were moving, there was family emergencies, new staff coming on board. and others leaving. School never started until mid October that year. We discovered too late that D had not completed his credits. There were no consequences and no returned phone calls. Again, perhaps all that really matters in the long run is that he was safe. Grace and truth go together. I'm writing a fair and balanced account of our time with the ranch. If regular communication, qualified medical expertise and a sound education are important, you may face some challenges. I hope in time they will have a fitness program in place, opportunities for the boys to work and feel responsible, and better communication for the parents. Building projects that were supposed to include the boys never happened. In my opinion, there is a great need for outside professionals to be part of the program. Well qualified medical staff involved in assessments, followup appointments and visits to the ranch on a regular basis with the boys would be invaluable. Team meetings where information is shared with the staff would be beneficial. With the best of intentions, there were gaps in the program. Perhaps there have been some improvements recently. It's been 2 years since D left the ranch. In the short time he was there, he had some great experiences, the best being that he was challenged in his faith. He has matured a great deal since then and the ranch is now part of our story. We are so grateful that we have a good relationship with our son and know that God is at work. Nothing is every wasted. Nothing is ever perfect. For those who are on a similar journey, I hope you find these comments helpful. Please feel free to contact me. CJ
Original source (https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHNU_enDK330DK330&espv=210&es_sm=122&q=new+horizons+youth+ranch+shackles&oq=new+horizons+youth+ranch+shackles&gs_l=serp.3...9667.13713.0.14033.20.14.6.0.0.0.76.565.14.14.0....0...1c.1.35.serp..20.0.0.rPcfORgz_88#lrd=lrd)