Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => World Wide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools (WWASPS) => Topic started by: HappyTroll on August 07, 2005, 12:29:00 PM
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If anyone on this site, which I kind of doubt has had positive program experiences and would be interested in writing a story for a new referal/ truth about wwasp site let me know, rewards offered for best essays!
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... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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HappyTroll isn?t it great how you?re allowed to post here. I wish it was the same way on your ?IT SAVED HIS LIFE? forum and now we will recommend it to you (and get a free months tuition). Not to group you guys together who swear by these programs, but you all tend to be the most secretive and support of censorship.
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actually unlike this site my website will be both unbiased and factual, I plan on developing two sides to the story kids that it has worked for and kids who it has not, however at this time I am working only on the positive, it's important for parents to realize that these school are not miracle pills, yet at the same time it's important for everything to be factual. For someone to say that they were abused may be fair, but to say that the program overall is abusive is unfair in my opinion, therefore I will publish stories that are from an individual perspective and not generalized to be about all programs, or all kids. By the way I am not working to get a free month or the money, actually I plan on donating the money to scholarships for kids whos parents cannot afford the program.
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here's a good program experience: When I was a teenager I was depressed and into drugs and sex. I liked to go out without telling my parents and would break curfew. I listened to heavy metal music and wore baggy jeans and ripped flannel shirts. I smoked a pack a day. Then my parents sent me to a program, with more rules than could be included in the rule book, where you would only find out about them by breaking them. I saw kids thrown in solitary cells, taken down, slammed against walls, injected with sedatives, and flipped off the mattress if they were on the top bunk. I lived there for about a year, going to therapy and group twice a week. The therapists would share everything I told them with the rest of the staff and counselors, so they knew where I was at, and what they could say to get me to do things I wasn't too crazy about doing- things like telling on my peers, cleaning blood off the floor of the solitary rooms, writing my parents letters that said everything was fine and great and that the program saved my life, letting the staff read the mail I received in return. Then finally, one day before the holidays, I had the privilege of returning home to my family. That day I found my old stash and smoked the greatest blunt of my life and decided to dedicate all my time and energy to art. Since then I've painted over a hundred different landscapes of the beach and the mountains and the forest. It really takes being locked up to be able to see nature in her most extraordinary grandeur. I also cut off all contact with my family. Best decision of my life. Couldn't have done it without the program. There's my good program experience. Oh yeah, I still smoke a pack a day, some things never change. :smokin:
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which program did you witness someone being injected with sedatives?
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My awesome program experience.
Once upon a time I was sixteen, was the loner type who liked to read for hours on end, and listen to music by myself instead of subjecting myself to teasing and torment inflicted by neighborhood children...I smoked a few cigarettes every day, snuck out of the house once, was a virgin, yeah...I was really far down, I got drunk once, never tried drugs though...wasn't interested...I cut class a few times and got caught then was talked to by the principal and so I never did it again...oh I forgot, I kissed a boy one or two times and let him visit me once after school, which was forbidden....didn't get along with my family either..you know fights, disobeying my authoritarian father, hating my stepmonster
Yes, I was in dire need of intervention fast....
Straight decided I was I druggie with an attitude of the worst kind...drug tests were not necessary as it was sooo obvious I was a hard core druggie in desparate need of help to save me from myself, jail, death, hell and damnation, etc.
Straight successfully convinced me I had a drug problem by the time I "graduated", they say I got high off liquid paper, even though I had no clue how a person could get high from it. While in straight, I was humilated in various ways such as spending quality time in a bathroom stall with an older phaser vigiliently watching my every move. Straight successfully instilled fear of restraints or being confronted on my impressionable mind, so I never dared voice opposition or disagreement. The sleep deprivation was real fun...I loved struggling to stay awake in group or school every day, getting confronted for, for falling asleep in group was widely known to be a sure sign that I had stopped applying my program...watching my grades go to hell, thats a good thing about Straight...no emphasis on academics...no one ever asked about grades.
My fondest memory of Straight was the day, three weeks after turning 18 and well into "aftercare," I was caught breaking a rule...I committed the cardinal sin of...holding a guy's hand.... Straight and my parents took immediate and decisive action to save me from myself.....My loving father, stepmonster, and three of their loyal friends visited me at work one day, then grabbed me and pushed me into a car, all the while I'm kicking and screaming and trying to resist...as witnesses tried to help in vain...and I wisked off to Straight, where staff greeted me in obvious expectation of my arrival...soon after, to my utter dismay, the local police freed me from my Straight, my saviors...
Yes, I know, kinapping, assault and battery, and conspiracy are all highly illegal and vigorously prosecuted in this country, but no matter, any means necessary to save a child, even if its illegal.
Yes I was saved, saved...oh Thank you Straight for stealing my childhood from me. Thank you Straight for saving me from my drug free life. Thank you for the curiosity you instilled in me that led me to experiementing with drugs in a way I never thought possible! Thank you for my fear and distrust of authority figures. Thank you for years of insecurity...Thank you for my motivation to party my ass off for the first 5-7 years after the glorious day of the abduction...
Yes, what A WONDERFUL program experience Straight was!!!!!!!!!!!!
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On 2005-08-07 19:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
"which program did you witness someone being injected with sedatives?"
Provo Canyon
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Anything good that came out of the program could have been achieved by just locking me in a dumpster for 7 months...
You say that classifying the program in general as abusive is unfair... Well when OP is part of the program, then, yes I would consider the program to be abusive... When you can't interact with your family (who may or may not have been the problem), then I would say, yes, it is abusive (as abuse is defined "To use wrongly or improperly")... When you are not allowed to talk for months, then yes I would say the program is abusive... When you advertise as if you are professionals in your field, when you should be saying that the only experience you have with children is those you have beat in OP...then yes I would consider the program abusive...
The thing I can't stand is how people want to attribute a positive change in the child to the program... NO!!! If a kid realizes something there, that doesn't mean the program saved them... It means the kid realized something... Something that quite possibly could have been realized in any other setting... And as I've said before... POWs learn things from their experiences, but I don'thear anyone endorsing POW camps.... why?
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And what a punk... Happy Troll... To act (and even state in your name) as if this is some light hearted affair is infuriating me right now... Good for you, you are a happy troll, what a great life... Meanwhile you are supporting a program that absolutely ruins peoples lives... Cleans out bank accounts, leaves permanent scars in children's minds and bodies... You have no idea though, you are so ignorant its ridiculous... And you think you are going to be doing a factual website? And where are the rewards coming from>? What stake do you have in it? pathetic
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YOU CHILD ABUSER!!
Actually, Great story. All kids in programs should be so blessed as to have a counselor with a sense of humor!!!
I hear it's very therapeutic to laugh, although in this case sounds like it could've gone beyond funny into gross.
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Ive had some success with dehy beans but have had far better results with hummus and raw garlic. :lol: :lol:
Battle of the bad butts.
When my friends and I were talking about Brat Camp we got on the subject of the lameass earth names. Wispering Aspen... that would be whispering asshole.
And my fave fart joke...
You know why farts smell?
So deaf people can enjoy them too.
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And TSW, thanks for sharing, I always enjoy reading your posts.
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No doubt in my mind, youre a guy and Im not.
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I like this one:
Never hold in your farts. Toxicity travels to the brain and causes shitty thoughts.
I'd say there's some mighty constipated people in program land.
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Ah yes....the memories of rampant programing constipation....
A steady diet of peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, constipation, and the rite of "passage" in the bathroom witnessed by an upper phaser :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
TSW, that was toooooo funny! :lol: :lol:
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After a couple days of eating the same food... beans, rice, trail mix, granola, dried apricots, everyones poo is the same. Or should be. A good instructor needs to ask the students questions about poo and pee. How much, how often, describe it. Because as you know feces are the barometer of your body's wellness. So after a couple days the new kid is starting to freak out and wants to go home because he/she's sick. So what's up you ask? My poo, it's not right. As an instructor you've heard this story sooooooo many times. So you describe their poo for them without seeing it. It's like Dairy Queen softserve but kinda orange? Yeah. That's OK, that's the way it should be. It's from eating stuff like dried apricots every day. After a week or so on trail even the most uptight kids will give long-winded elaborate descriptions of their poo. Most entertaining.
I was thinking about apologizing for the graphic content of this post....... nah.
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You don't have to convince me...It was sooo funny because it was oh so true.... ::bigsmilebounce:: ::bigsmilebounce:: ::bigsmilebounce::
But convincing all the little Happy Trolls out there in program loving land.... well, we know how that goes ::rainbow:: ::rainbow::
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One of my faves is about "consequences" Our program was all about natural consequences. We had a new kid that had shown up from some program in Mexico or Costa Rica. This a couple years ago so I don't remember the name of the program. But he was program savvy and a badass. Lots of chipped teeth from being in fights. So we get to the new site and the kids spread out and set up their tarps. Half hour later he walks up to the instructors tarp and wants to ask a question.
"So what's up?"
"I wanna know about consequences."
"Consequences for what?"
"Jackin off"
My co-instructor and I want to bust a gut but that wouldn't be Ok. So the other instructor who's a guy (Im not) just says its a "private" thing and we dont want to know anything about it.
The last thing the kid says is
"Can I have some tissues?"
Now heres the conversation the other instructor and I have...
"Natural consequences????"
"Well, you fell pretty good afterward but your hand might get kinda sticky"
"And thats why we give you TWO pairs of liner socks"
There were days when I LOVED my job!!!!!!!
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Speaking of toilet paper. Heard on the Brat Camp program that the kids are given ONE roll of toilet paper that must last a month.
What happens when they run out? Do they use their hand? Socks? Leaves? Mullien leaves? What's the deal and how do they possibly think that anyone can stretch one roll for a month, unless there really are some severely constipated kids.
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Poo hazards..... :exclaim: :grin: :grin:
Yes...please do tell about the Martians... :???:
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If kids were on solo time, which just meant they were at separate sites and out of the line of vision and sound from one another, we knew as instructors to make your presence known. When walking up on a kid, boy or girl you'd say something loud enough so they knew you were on your way. Cause you know, there aint a whole lot of stuff to do on solo time. Heh heh heh. There was the fifteen year old that told me he was trying to break his record of thirteen times in one day. I just told him he'd have a better chance if he drank lots of water and stayed hydrated.
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We had a mystery pooper that wouldnt fess up - or pick it up so everyone lost TP rights. Bark, sticks, snow, mmmmmmm mullen leaves. LEAVES OF THREE LET THEM BE, DO NOT MEDDLE WITH THE LEAVES OF NETTLE.
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Some kids got their assignments done and out of the way early on. There were also kids that were in a "holding pattern" waiting to get out. Usually because their seperated parents could not decide on what to do with them next. In some states once a kid is in a program he cant be released UNTIL parents are in agreement - doesnt matter which one has custody.
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Oh, so the point was that I had kids that really didnt belong in the program at that point and should have already moved on. Its no different than teaching a classroom of kids. You get twenty five to thirty kids together and they are at lots of different levels.
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Solo's just some new-agey bullshit about reflection and other eastern bullshit (or whatever) on the surface but probably has the ulterior motive of causing a breakdown from isolation and being left with your anguish - which was pulled to the surface by the 'therapy' there.
But hey, more than likely masturbating is a better use of your time than thinking about bullshit while youre in a program.
I wonder how they handled that in Brat Camp? I would have tried my damnest to hit the camera lens from 10 paces. Wouldn't have had anything else to do...Creationists make it sound like a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night.
--Isaac Asimov, Russian-born American author
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Yeah, solo time was supposed to be a time for introspection. Not saying whether its good or bad, just part of the program. I think there are times in a persons life when introspection and three days on "solo" is a good thing. But only if you want it to be.
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Masterbation is 'consequenced' in some programs. WWASP for one, and was discussed in this thread:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?So ... 9&start=30 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?Sort=&topic=4154&forum=9&start=30)
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Im glad it wasnt consequenced in the programs worked at...... or maybe it was but never mentioned to me. Its normal, its natural, I just dont wanna know about it. But I was glad someone told me what the girls were doing with carrots on solo time. I definately wasnt gonna cook em if theyd been carried in group gear. AAARRRRRGGGGHHH.
And thats another story!
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ok, I have a question, and I'm not trying to be vulgar or crude, I just really am curious. In wilderness programs, what do girls do when they are on their periods? Do they get tampons, or do they have to use leaves or tree bark or something? It must be an awful experience having to walk 10 mile hikes when youre PMSing with cramps so bad it feels someone's tearing your ovaries apart. Do they get asprin or midol? probably not. Anyone know?
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Hey, i think it's a legit question, not vulgar or rude. It was posed in the Brat Camp forum as well.
It's billed as a 'realty' show, and this is certainly reality.
Shortbus should have some feedback on it.
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On 2005-08-08 16:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"ok, I have a question, and I'm not trying to be vulgar or crude, I just really am curious. In wilderness programs, what do girls do when they are on their periods? Do they get tampons, or do they have to use leaves or tree bark or something? It must be an awful experience having to walk 10 mile hikes when youre PMSing with cramps so bad it feels someone's tearing your ovaries apart. Do they get asprin or midol? probably not. Anyone know?"
She'd probably just be called a "faker" or a "drama queen" until she fully bled-out and dropped dead.
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Dysfunction you don't know much about women do you? You dont "bleed out" and die from having a period without tampons or pads. You just have to change your clothes more often and are embarrassed as hell! :roll:
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I'm pretty sure DJ was being facetious. Although my money is on them ignoring any discomfort and pushing them on down the trail.
It's been reported that some girls completely stop bleeding.
What DO they do? Do they have adquate extra clothing, unders, etc? Do they get to shower and clean up? Showers, if you can call them that, at sagewalk happened once a week. Does the whole line of hikers stop while the young lady hits the woods to do a quick change. Course she'd have to dig a hole and bury the waste, then change clothes, so it wouldn't be quick.
And TSW, what you said is true, they do acquire the same cycle timing, or can.
Now, if they want to emulate NA culture, all those young ladies would lavish around in the moon lodge. They wouldn't lift a finger. Food would be brought to them and all their needs met. Pretty clever way to eliminate or avoid the wrath of PMS, huh? It was considered a very sacred time when the women 'dreamed' together.
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Indian maiden: Quit your bitchin and get those roasting ears in here. And check on that pumpkin pie.
And given that their group cycle most often came with the full moon, perhaps that contributed to the 'madness' as well.
Anywho, I'd really like to hear from some ladies who have direct experience with this. What IS the reality?
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One of the programs only allowed pads. You know, mousie mattresses. Everyone was give a brown lunch bag and a ziplock. All waste was to be carried out. None buried. After going to the bathroom everyone used hand sanitizer. Before every meal we did a group hand wash with camp suds. Every three or four days my groups had private hygiene time. Youd get a pot of water (we didnt have traditional cooking pots, each person was given a can that was approx one gallon in size) picture institutional sized can vegetables. Sometimes wed have time to heat up the water.... youd start by washing your face, then your nether regions or coochie or junk or whatever you want to call it. Next came feet if necessary. When your feet are in boots most of the time they reallly dont get that dirty. Then, instead of dunking your dirty underwear into the water you pour water onto them and then add a little camp suds. Scrub scrub, squeeze out as much sudsy water into your socks. Do this by pouring a little more water onto them. Scrub scrub squeeze. This way you are not wasting water or camp suds. So youve kind of rinsed your underwear and youre working a lather up in your socks. Scrub scrub squeeze your socks. If your socks are the last thing to wash, squeeze water onto ground. So now youve scrubbed socks and underwear - and lets not forget bandanna. Take the least dirty thing - probably the bandanna and slosh it around in the water thats left in the pot. Wring bandanna out and hang to dry. Next do the underwear, and then the socks. Good personal hygiene has been achieved. When youre out on backpacking trips and water is scarce this is a great technique. Id rather have a swimming hole but I guess you have to work with what you got.
Now back to the rag business. Everyone is responsible for their personal trash. Whenever we needed to we stopped for whoever needed to stop. And there are times when everyone doesnt line their periods up... if Im distributing birth control pills I know pretty much when someones having their period. And I would distribute midol or aleve or whatever if someone asked for it. I hated to though because it just generated paperwork. Blech. The other program let you use whatever person hygiene products you wanted. Your choice. This program would give you a ziplock, some aluminum foil????? and a brown lunch bag. Once again you were responsible for your own icky trash. Or, I forgot, you could burn it if we were having a camp fire - this applies to both programs. But I still dont get the foil thing. It was never explained to me. They also adopted the pee rag technique that Outward Bound uses. That is instead of drip drying or using toilet paper (a priviledge youve probably lost anyway because someone tried to put it in a cat hole and got busted) you use a bandanna as a pee rag. Pee is sterile so you can keep on using you pee rag. Its usually tied to the outside of a womans pack so it can dry out. So there you have it.
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So happy troll where the hell are you. All this is for you!!!!!!!!!!
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On 2005-08-07 09:29:00, HappyTroll wrote:
"If anyone on this site, which I kind of doubt has had positive program experiences and would be interested in writing a story for a new referal/ truth about wwasp site let me know, rewards offered for best essays!"
Cmon, when you gonna kick down with the swag dude??????
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The reward is probably just the satisfaction of a job well done.
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I know you guys were trying to be as clean as possible with the few resources you had, and the order you washed things in, but geeze, I was homeless for a couple years there and I lived with more sanitarily than that. Why did the one program only let the girls wear pads? If you're showering only every 3-4 days it's much cleaner to wear tampons, unless of course they don't always stop when someone needs to change. I'm not saying your camp did this, but some programs might have only "regulated breaks" and don't want a girl getting TSS. This is something parents need to think about before sending their daugthers away, which they don't always do. Also, although toilet paper may be mountain man's gold, it shouldn't be a privledge, even when I never had TP I always had -something- napkins, cotton balls, papers, tissue papers, something. If I had to use a piece of cloth, like a bandana, I would wash it out right afterwards. I used to get Hood River vodka in the plastic bottles and carry that around as disinfectant and to clean things out with, as mouth wash, to sip, etc... :grin: I understand that's really NOT going to fly in a program, but you think parents are paying thousands for it, they should be able to afford some damn rolls of generic 1 ply. But pee rag... oh boy, forget dipstick, I think I've found my new favorite insult. :em: you pee rag
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Well that covers #1, how bout #2. That considered 'sterile' too?
How did unders/socks dry in the cold weather?
I was surprised that they allowed birth control. Their 'moon times' would never line up if they were all on the pill.
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On 2005-08-09 04:42:00, Deborah wrote:
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Well that covers #1, how bout #2. That considered 'sterile' too?
How did unders/socks dry in the cold weather?
I was surprised that they allowed birth control. Their 'moon times' would never line up if they were all on the pill."
Ill try to answer all the questions. Pee is sterile, we know that feces are not, you can pick up e coli, hepatitis and who knows what else. My groups were made to use hand sani after going to the bathroom, and before handling or eating any food. You never shared utensils or food and you never reached into a bag of food, you poured it out into a cup or hand and ate from the cup or hand. In winter I tried to have kids change their socks after lunch if possible. Less sweaty that way. In summer its easy to get your socks to dry out. Change them and tie the sweaty ones to the outside of your pack. In winter, when you go to bed, put your socks and footbeds (the inserts that come out of your boots) down at the foot of your sleeping bag. Then you add the water bottle full of hot water to help keep your toes toasty. Works like a charm, feet stay warm, your have a bottle of water to drink when you get up and your body heat dries out your socks. I spent a couple seasons in Antarctica living in a tent and everyone did this.
The reasoning behind pads probably stems from toxic shock. Forget to change a tampon and bad things can happen, lots worse than not changing a pad.
All the groups would start out with TP. We had resupply a couple times a week. THey knew how much we had and what they needed to do to get to keep it. I cant stand it when Im out on a vacation backpacking and find a blob of toilet paper just sitting there. Or unburied poo. Thats lazy and disrespectful to humans and to nature. Its a way the students can police each other.
And we also had wetnaps. These are great for cleaning those hard-to-clean spots. Ive worked for the forest service and lots of fire fighters carry them to achieve that "fresh feeling" that they might be lacking.
And I have met women that have gone on Outward Bound trips and afterwards adopted the pee rag technique.
In the therapy program everyone is give two bandannas, its a students responsibility to keep them straight. And everyone is issued a bowl, cup and spoon which is labeled with your name.
And we clean them after ever meal and most nights clean them with boiling water. If not enough water, a few drops of diluted bleach.
Fingernails are kept short and I expect kids to scrub them with a nail brush and a little bleach every few days. (long fingernails are poop-collectors).
Hope this answers most of your questions.
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Tequila ooooooooh bad, crown royal bad tooo, bacardi 151 oooooooooooohhhhhhhh scary bad
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Hey TSW, what ever happened to the Martian story?
::bigsmilebounce:: ::bigsmilebounce:: ::bigsmilebounce:: ::bigsmilebounce:: ::bigsmilebounce:: ::bigsmilebounce:: ::bigsmilebounce:: ::bigsmilebounce:: ::bigsmilebounce::
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Give us the scoop on the martians. All of it.
:em:
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:question: I think you have two prize winning stories by TSW here. Where did that happy little troll go :question: ...its time to fork over prize money :exclaim:
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Happy Troll,
You asked for positive program experiences.
So how happy do you want....
Oh, wait a sec, happy might not be the same as positive. If its fun, its probably not working.
::bigsmilebounce::
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.....and thanks TWS
another good story. WHo else has a story, I know if youve been through a program youve seen some really funny, messed-up stuff. You know, lying on thr ground, laughing so hard I cant stand up stuff. Especially if the laugh is at the expense of the instructor/therapist.
cmon, take the HT challenge.
Lets all send HT a PM and invite em back personally.
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At scl, one of our family "fathers" claimed he used to be a Seattle cop... He was a dork though... Nobody believed him... So he challenged a couple of us to wrestle... The first kid to wrestle him pinned him... lol!
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I'm here all right, just nothing worth my time responding to, sorry!
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Maybe you can give us an example of what a winning entry might look like???
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In one year at the program where I worked, I had sexual relations with approximately 80% of the female counseling staff members.
Does this count as a "good program experience"?
Do I get a prize?
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I assume you are a female, Dysfunction.
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On 2005-08-11 11:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I assume you are a female, Dysfunction. "
Why is that? Is lesbianism rampant among TBS counselors or something?
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:lol: :lol:
Could be, but I think they are more inclined to the more sadistic wilderness programs.
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I guess that's where they got the term "beat the bushes"...
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I would say actually getting some would count as a good program experience... :lol: :lol:
Hell I wasn't allowed to look at a guy much less touch one...for well over a year and a half...as my hormones were raging....
I'm so envious Dysfunction! :lol: If I would have know about those kind of "good program experiences" I would have done a better job kissing staff's ass then got on staff myself! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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80% of female staff would have been about 3 or 4 women Dysfunction am I correct in that assumption? Weren't you at a school that had just opened when you worked there?
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What I said was "female counseling staff," not female staff. There were probably 18-20 women on general staff and 9 or 10 on the counseling staff.
Why are you so concerned? Are you just a little upset that nobody wants to bounce your ass?
Maybe you're a little long in the tooth, "gravity affected," a bit too much cellulite?
If you'd kindly post a few photos, maybe we can hook you up. I know some deviants who would stick just about anything.
Nonconformist: You would have "got on staff"? That's a serious double entendre.
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Dysfunction, I completely meant that as a joke. I thought it would be obvious, but I guess not. My bad. Seriously, I never would have considered being on staff. No way in hell.
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A little miscommunication here...
A "double entendre" is a figure of speech signifying a "dual meaning."
I just made a joke about "getting on staff" meaning 1. Becoming employed by a facility; and 2. Having intercourse, as in physically "getting on" one's "staff"...
No offense intended. I just thought it was amusing thinking about you getting on my staff (and I don't mean working as my subordinate!).
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I had to look up "double entendre" to see what you meant. I did see the glaring double meaning you just described, but thought I better play it safe and respond to the first possible interpretation just in case you or anyone else may have taken offense to interpretation #1.
And BTW, I'm not offended easiliy! :smile: :wink:
So, you thought that was amusing....hmmmmm interesting.....
I may never be able to read the word "staff" again without cracking up, :wink: (Just kidding!)[ This Message was edited by: Nonconformistlaw on 2005-08-12 19:09 ]
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"Interesting" as in something you'd enjoy doing, or "interesting" as in you'd like to study the etiology of my apparent psychological disorder?
These double entendres can be fun!
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DJ, check you PM's.
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Oops! Wasn't sure where the boundaries were. TSW, you have a good point. Am about to edit previous posts. ::rainbow:: [ This Message was edited by: on 2005-08-12 19:10 ]
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Wow, got all perved up and it ain't my fault.
Drats! :silly: To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical.
Thomas Jefferson
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"Bad things" do not happen if a tampon is left in too long. It is now known that leaving tampons does not really cause Toxic Shock Syndrome (I'm not 100% on all the facts on that, just know that it's not nearly as dangerous as once thought).
In fact, I have heard a few doctors say that it is not uncommon for them to find an old tampon while doing a pelvic exam. It's not all that serious, okay? It's not going very far. It's not going to work it's way up to your heart or anything.
Pads out in the wilderness? Disgusting and unsanitary. Yuck.
BTW, I almost completely stopped menstruating while at Provo Canyon School. So did lots of other girls, an alarming number, really. Why? It can't be good. I suspect it was some sort of pysiological defense mechanism. Obviously some sort of dis-ease. Thats certainly not how a body would respond to a caring and supportive environment.
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On 2005-08-12 18:52:00, Nonconformistlaw wrote:
"Oops! Wasn't sure where the boundaries were. TSW, you have a good point. Am about to edit previous posts. ::rainbow:: [ This Message was edited by: on 2005-08-12 19:10 ]"
I'm not editing anything. I've read quite a bit fom TSW and Niles, and this is mild by comparison. I think you should repost your comments.
It's nice to see your use of the English language is improving. You happen to be dealing with a cunning linguist...
I thought about sending these quips to your private mail, but I wasn't sure if you'd enjoy having your box stuffed to overflowing, so I'll just post here on the board.
So, to use our double entendre theme as a metaphor for a car race, after qualifying runs, you are clearly the pole sitter and you've left me with the arduous task of coming from behind, a position in which I often find myself.
In any case, I had better not push it too hard, as I'm starting to overheat a bit. I also don't want to damage my motor, so I'm considering pulling out before I blow it.
I'm sorry if anyone has been offended, but I'm doing my best to be an upstanding member of our community...
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality"
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2005-08-13 05:01 ]
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DJ, you said--"It's nice to see your use of the English language is improving. You happen to be dealing with a cunning linguist"---
Looking forward to seeing more of your linguistic skills. ::rainbow:: But if you were referring to my linguistic skills on posts throughout the forum, then I, on the other hand, usually disregard my writing ability, as I do nothing but write complaints, and arguments for briefs, motions, etc. all day at work. Although I could easily improve my use of the English language at any given moment, I would absolutely gag if I had to write so carefully and correctly in all my posts.
::puke::
But if that comment was directed at my most recent stab at double entendres, let me know where I may still need improvement! :smile:
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Nonconformistlaw - whats funny, is not only am I a perv but a real motorsports freak. I plan on autocrossing my V8 RX-7 project when completed, if not tearing ass around real race tracks :grin:
No, I wont street race, running 11s on street tires with no traction until 3rd gear is overkill when most people think a 6 second 0-60 time is impressive :lol: and most people slow down wayy too much on the fun curvy roads.Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach him to use the Net and he won't bother you for weeks.
--Anonymous
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BTW, I almost completely stopped menstruating while at Provo Canyon School. So did lots of other girls, an alarming number, really. Why? It can't be good. I suspect it was some sort of pysiological defense mechanism. Obviously some sort of dis-ease. Thats certainly not how a body would respond to a caring and supportive environment.
"
THAT is proof positive of how stressful the environemnt is and how malnourished they are.
Any other program victims have that happen? :scared: The function of the press is very high. It is almost holy. It ought to
serve as a forum for the people, through which the people may know freely what is going on. To misstate or suppress the news is a breach of trust.
--Mr. Justice Brandeis
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I have spoken with and heard from others who know that some of the girls while at WWASP's Dundee in Costa Rica stopped having their monthly menstrual cycle. Stress and malnutrition.
No love and positive attention their.
Quality care it wasnt.
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yeah, that happened to me and a lot of girls at PCS, my period stopped for 5 months, and I was really regular before that. oh man, it catches up with you though. I got it =so= heavy one day it was awful, they gave me a class II for having to borrow a tampon because I "wasn't prepared". we used to say it was something in the food, but now I'm sure it was just constant stress, either that, or Provo Canyon was run by a bunch of aliens that would stop time and impregnate the girls and then take the hybrid fetus out like halfway through the term for disection and experimenting. if it was going to happen anywhere, it would happen there.
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As far as I know, every newcomer girl in Straight skipped a period or two or more initially. When we did get them, we all had them at the same time. I think I missed about 3. At the same time, it took me 3 weeks to move my bowels w/ an audience. So I was swelling up. I remember getting confronted for being pregnant. I hadn't had sex in months prior to intake.
Do you support drug prohibition because it finances criminals at home or because it finances terrorists abroad?
--Anonymous
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Nihilanthic---Racing enthusiast, huh? I always thought it sounded fun, and yes, a bit scary. Even though I have basic knowledge of the sport, I just dont get technical details related to cars. Girl thing I guess. ::rainbow::
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Women training for the olympics or actively involved in sporting activities such as runners or other strenous sports also have missed periods often. It doesnt necessarily have to do with malnutrition from a program but could be caused from stress from not being at home, etc. Not necessarily from abuse but just from being in a different environment. Its possible the extra physical activity the girls arent used to could also be causing missed periods. Blaming that solely on abuse or malnutrition is slightly narrow minded.
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TSW--- I dont think I'll ask the cause of the "swelling" you mentioned :exclaim: :exclaim:
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***Women training for the olympics or actively involved in sporting activities such as runners or other strenous sports also have missed periods often. It doesnt necessarily have to do with malnutrition from a program but could be caused from stress from not being at home, etc. Not necessarily from abuse but just from being in a different environment. Its possible the extra physical activity the girls arent used to could also be causing missed periods. Blaming that solely on abuse or malnutrition is slightly narrow minded.***
Is the troll being intentionally deceptive... or genuinely ignorant? You decide.
Stress of being away from home in a 'different' environment? :lol:
'Extra' physical activity. :lol:
I once read a study about Tigers in captivity. The females ovulated more frequently (more periods) which was analyzed to be a response to their captivity. The tigers perceived it as a threat. Fight or flight. An urgent need to reproduce asap.
Excessive physical activity could produce more testosterone therefore, have an effect.
Stress causes adrenals to produce testosterone as well as the expected adrenaline.
But I suspect it had everything to do with stress, sleep deprivation, 'excessive' physical activity and bad nutrition.
I've never heard of kids in traditional boarding schools or college missing periods due to being away from home.
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On 2005-08-13 19:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
Women training for the olympics or actively involved in sporting activities such as runners or other strenous sports also have missed periods often. It doesnt necessarily have to do with malnutrition from a program but could be caused from stress from not being at home, etc.
Women who travel as tourists or dignitaries don't have this complaint. Women under stress of major life threatening illness or famine almost always do. I read all about that when my 19 - 21yo daughter was undergoing half a dozen major surguries. She never shut down her reproductive systems for as long as most girls that I remember did while undergoing daily high doses of psyche surgery.
Don't underestimate the power of humiliation! I deeply suspect that most yuppies do just that. You think you have no impact on your kids because your efforts are not effecting the result you desire. And so you resort to ever more desperate tantrums. But you have more impact on your kids than you want to have. They don't miss a trick. Just put down the phone, the book, turn off Dr. Phil and just look at your baby w/ your own eyes, no one standing between you as interpreter. Every little tick and quirk effects them profoundly.
Don't believe anyone selling a bill of goods built upon getting around that hard rule of natural order. It's a lie.
If people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny.
Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)
return undef() if /coercion/i;
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Deborah the facts stated are known medical issues. That was not an ignorant statement. The women training for olympic sports often have their periods stop or missed for several months at a time but the cause is under debate. Some say its the extra strenuous activity that produces more testosterone in females (yes women have it too). Others say in some cases it could be females taking steroids. It was insinuated in the previous post that the reason the girls missed periods was due to malnutrition or abuse. This is misleading as it is common for women undergoing a change in their normal activities to have a change in their cycles or from the stress of being away from home in a different environment. You cannot include girls in boarding schools because in most cases the girls want to go to those schools and it is not as stressful as being sent to a therapeutic environment that they did not want to attend. It is also common for women going through a personal trauma such as a death in the family or divorce to miss periods. See the following cut and paste from WebMd website:
"Most women have between 11 and 13 menstrual periods each year. You may be different: You may have more or fewer. Missed or irregular periods must be looked at in terms of what is normal for you.
Missed or irregular periods have many causes. Pregnancy is usually the first cause to be considered, but other common causes are:
Lifestyle changes. Examples include:
Excessive weight loss or gain.
Increased exercise (missed periods are common in endurance athletes).
Extreme emotional stress.
Travel.
Medications, such as hormonal birth control methods, which may cause lighter, less frequent, more frequent, or skipped periods.
Eating disorders, such as anorexia or bulimia.
Menopause and the 2 to 5 years just prior to menopause (perimenopause).
The start of menstrual periods (menarche). For the first few years of menstruation, periods may be irregular.
Hormonal abnormalities , which cause fluctuating levels of the hormones needed to support menstruation.
Medications other than birth control pills, such as steroids, tranquilizers, diet pills, or recreational drugs.
Problems with the pelvic organs, such as imperforate hymen or polycystic ovary syndrome.
Breast-feeding.
Inflammatory bowel disease."
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On 2005-08-14 09:15:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"I injured my groin when I was using a chainsaw at work. The damn thing was so inflamed it made my nut swell up.
Gimchee, or Kimchee is fermented cabbage the cure for all things in Korea. The Koreans believe they were saved from SARS by Kimchee.
There lives more faith, in honest doubt,
Believe me, than in half the creeds.
Alfred Lord Tennyson
"
Sorry to hear about your testicle, TSW. That's unfortunate.
I actually like kimchee. It seems as though if you take a few nasty ingredients, like cabbage, fish, hot peppers and vinegar, and bury them in a clay pot for a few months, the whole becomes greater than the sum of it's parts.
Now, if I could just find a clay pot big enough to bury a few Struggling Trolls...
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Chain saw, groin. We talkin strained muscle not some weird kickback?
The period thing....
If your body fat goes too low, you might cease to menstruate. Someone help out here, I cant remember the term for it.
Lean machines include athletes, anorexics and some bulemics.
And stress will do it too, some peoples digestion will get all messed up. Some womens reproductive system gets messed up.
And revisiting the toxic shock issue. Wasnt toxic shock brought to the public attention with some of the tampons that were "larger volume" and women were wearing them for longer periods of time? Hence toxic shock occurances?
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On 2005-08-14 09:15:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"I injured my groin when I was using a chainsaw at work. The damn thing was so inflamed it made my nut swell up.
Gimchee, or Kimchee is fermented cabbage the cure for all things in Korea. The Koreans believe they were saved from SARS by Kimchee.
There lives more faith, in honest doubt,
Believe me, than in half the creeds.
Alfred Lord Tennyson
"
TSW - they also believe in 'fan death' :lol:
I cant sleep without a fan blowing on me, I get hot easy as hell and I need to white noise. Is uniformity [of opinion] attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites.
Thomas Jefferson
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Chain saw accidents arent funny, unless no one gets hurt. Then they are pretty damn funny. I heard about this one second hand, a guy from a fire crew had his saw shouldered with his chaps around the bar. Hiking up a rocky wet trail, he slipped and fell. Unfortunately a couple fingers came in contact with the little bit of chain that not covered by the chaps. Damn near cut one of his fingers off. Crew had to stop, clear a spot for a helicopter to land and they medivaced him out. He kept his finger.
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"butthole doctor"???? ::rainbow::
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undergoing daily high doses of psyche surgery
???
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On 2005-08-14 06:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Deborah the facts stated are known medical issues. That was not an ignorant statement. The women training for olympic sports often have their periods stop or missed for several months at a time but the cause is under debate. Some say its the extra strenuous activity that produces more testosterone in females (yes women have it too). Others say in some cases it could be females taking steroids. It was insinuated in the previous post that the reason the girls missed periods was due to malnutrition or abuse. This is misleading as it is common for women undergoing a change in their normal activities to have a change in their cycles or from the stress of being away from home in a different environment. You cannot include girls in boarding schools because in most cases the girls want to go to those schools and it is not as stressful as being sent to a therapeutic environment that they did not want to attend. It is also common for women going through a personal trauma such as a death in the family or divorce to miss periods. See the following cut and paste from WebMd website:
"Most women have between 11 and 13 menstrual periods each year. You may be different: You may have more or fewer. Missed or irregular periods must be looked at in terms of what is normal for you.
Missed or irregular periods have many causes. Pregnancy is usually the first cause to be considered, but other common causes are:
Lifestyle changes. Examples include:
Excessive weight loss or gain.
Increased exercise (missed periods are common in endurance athletes).
Extreme emotional stress.
Travel.
Medications, such as hormonal birth control methods, which may cause lighter, less frequent, more frequent, or skipped periods.
Eating disorders, such as anorexia or bulimia.
Menopause and the 2 to 5 years just prior to menopause (perimenopause).
The start of menstrual periods (menarche). For the first few years of menstruation, periods may be irregular.
Hormonal abnormalities , which cause fluctuating levels of the hormones needed to support menstruation.
Medications other than birth control pills, such as steroids, tranquilizers, diet pills, or recreational drugs.
Problems with the pelvic organs, such as imperforate hymen or polycystic ovary syndrome.
Breast-feeding.
Inflammatory bowel disease."
"
Missed periods, huh? Here's one BIG fact you have missed. When 2 or more menstruating females live in close proximity for any period of time, more often than not, their menstrual activity coincides. Saw in in the dorm in college, saw in roommate houses, see it every month at my brother's house with his wife and daugters. If such togetherness can so strongly influence this bio-cycle, it's entirely possible that the opposite effect can be created.
Heck, keeping girls in such a state by whatever means so that natural functions DO NOT benefits the overall control of all group members.
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I dont understand what youre trying to say. :???:
If you throw a bunch of women together eventually their periods would coincide because most everyone has a different length cycle. Some women 19 days, some 24, some 32. If you took a calendar and drew menstrual cycles as sine waves, theyd eventually all line up.
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Chain saws and periods in the same topic.... wow... glad I missed this one.
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On 2005-08-16 06:37:00, Shortbus wrote:
"I dont understand what youre trying to say. :???:
If you throw a bunch of women together eventually their periods would coincide because most everyone has a different length cycle. Some women 19 days, some 24, some 32. If you took a calendar and drew menstrual cycles as sine waves, theyd eventually all line up. "
Yeah, once and then again at some point. But there's more to it. If you pack a bunch of women together constantly as in a program, where you sleep, eat, shit and exist constantly asshole to elbow, almost all 100 or 200 or however many of them will synchronize their cycles.
I remember myself and a lot of other girls missing at least a few periods in Straight. And I've heard that the same thing often happens in other programs. Look into amenorrhea and it's known causes. This is objective evidence of the extreme stress common to all Synanon style programs (and, btw, prisons)."One commentator pointed out that when the mafia commits violence, no
one suggests we bomb Sicily. Today it seems we are, in a symbolic way, not only bombing "Sicily," but are thinking about bombing "Athens" (Iraq)."
Ron Paul, 11/29/01 Speech before Congress
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I really dont know whether to laugh at this or feel bad for you TSW. I mean sure it was funny, but the underlying circumstances were far from amussing. So right now, I think I will just :nworthy: to your wonderful story telling skills.
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:nworthy: :lol:
Now thats funny, but do you really like fighting? Fighting has never really appealed to me, now swords, thats another story, one day I might like to learn how to fight with swords... the real sabers and long blades and raipers, non of that samauri sword stuff.
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TSW said-----"This post is for mah buddy Nonconformist!She done said that she thought I was hot! ummm or is that... oh heck never mind. It's one in the morning so I am entitled to just a smidge of confusion."------------
Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! I swore you to secrecy remember????..... ::cheers::
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Here's a question...If I'm Irish, hows come I can never hold me liquor? :???: [ This Message was edited by: on 2005-08-24 18:32 ]
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Oh darlin', I see that you never had "the talk" you should have had from your mother or grandmother a good aunt. What a shame. It's so simple, you'll kick yourself for not figuring it out yourself. Grab one ear in each hand and hang on. That's all there is to it.
Any priest or shaman must be presumed guilty until proven innocent.
--Robert A. Heinlen, American science-ficiton author
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I wonder what kind of licker we're talkin' 'bout here :wink:
Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not.
James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785
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Three Springs Way gookin:
Have you read the thread: under Teen Help Industry that confronts you "past counselors in these programs" and asks point-blank about you taking accountability? This poster expresses strong opinions about the lack of compassion etc.
I too find some of you "story telling" and joking around to be very self-serving.
IF I had seen one "take down/restraint" on one of these kids---I would have quit this FINE JOB right there on the spot. You spend a lot of time trying to justify working in this spineless, abusive, job for as long as you did.
And, most of your little "war stories" are not that cute.
My child was abused in one of these programs.
I MADE THE MISTAKE of enrolling her there, and within two months, I realized MY mistake, and removed her. If I had been there IN PERSON to see the abuse...as you were...I would have had my daughter out of there in 2 seconds.
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I stand corrected--and thank you for your comments.
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There are similarities between the type of joking that goes on between firefighters, EMTs and wilderness instructors. It comes from having a very stressful job. I know because Ive done all three. Dont be hard on TSW. Read some of his early posts. Theres many a poster here that is quick to judge and run someone off. There are better strategies if youre trying to increase the membership at your church.
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In the end though it still doesn't change the fact that I came out of that miserable hell hole a better person for the hard earned wisdom I gained by the proverbial hard knocks life of youth counseling.
An arguement similar to that is how the abuse is justified by the programs, TSW.
Not accusing you, just raising a point before you overlook it...Religions are all alike; founded upon fables and mythologies.
--Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat
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you heard this quote many times:
What doesnt kill you makes you stronger.
You dont learn a whole lot when everything is going as planned. Its the shitty times that are most memorable and when the most learning occurs.
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the lste one was mine
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TSW, how is manufactured hardship in the form of 'roughing it' honestly worth a damn thing? All it does is build up tolerance to shit conditions, and living in a camp or any other authoritarian school/program/whatever just builds up tolerance to bullshit and either submission, or the skill of faking it until you cna get away (or *gasp* manipulating)
I've been through a TON of shit in my life, especially from the start of 2003 to now. Did it make me stronger? Yeah, in the sense that a bone wont break in the same spot once it heals and scartissue is harder to scrape or cut than something thats all pink and soft. But, building up tolerance to bullshit, getting a tougher skin, and learning to put up with crap doesnt make you a better person, it just makes you able to survive and endure. It doesnt make you a better person than anyone else, but you'd probably complain a lot less than someone whose never been through shit. And you can smugly go "pssh what a pussy/whiner" at the end of the day.
Survival isn't all there is to life. When all you learn how to do is put up, tough it out, tolerate shit, do as told, and generally just wait for the days torment to end so you can find your own sort of grey happiness in the time where youre not being fucked over or working your ass off fruitlessly, you're still not happy. It also doesnt do jack shit for the real issues you might have. Wow, I can shit in the woods, eat crappy food, and live in a tent! What REAL issues did they have? Are those addressed?
I could sit here and pat myself on the back for losing my mom to depression in my tweens, my sisters to my dad soon after in mind and physically at 18, being depressed myself as a child until I grew big enough as a teenager to scare the little shits off so they dont fuck w/ith me anymore, never having much in the way of property, friends, or anything else, never having a father, but its a waste of time.
Wanna know what my REAL problem is? Getting rid of the bullshit that I was brought up to believe, such as "put others before yourself" and "dont be selfish or materialistic". Spending all my damn time caring for others and not wanting anything has left me extremely unmotivated to want anything or do anything. Getting motivated or daring to want anything for myself. Getting a little arrogance and 'self esteem'. I sure as hell didnt get it by just getting a repeatedly tougher skin and nothing but bullshit and a lack of any *REAL* growth and development, which you get when you actually feel good, are accepted, and feel things like affection, pleasure, and love from someone.
And Im slowly screwing my head on the right way and figuring out how to be happy, but my CONTINUING load of bullshit on me and my family's plate isnt making it easy. Plus Im as disconnected from my family as I can be. It feels like I just live with people that look like me most of the time. I REALLY doubt that even MORE of the crap, and being TOTALLY removed from family, friends, acceptance, affection, and good, pleasurable, enjoyable things would help me one iota, no matter how you spin the 'self esteem' I should feel from 'succeeding' with the artificial, manufacturered 'hardship' and obedience Id have to deal with in a program, camp, or whatever.
I need a damn family, because the one I have is gutted out, dryrotted, dead on the inside, tied up dried up and dead to the damn world, care of my dad, the state of NC's legal system, and a lot of bad luck. Id wager a LOT of those kids in those programs are in the same boat Im in too, except even WORSE, because hey, mommy and daddy just had you kidnapped to get 'fixed'!
If you want to help kids, you need to actually fix the real problems, not make fake ones and fix them so you can manufacture self esteem. Its like making up the 'problem' of gay marriage or the 10 commandments and 'addressing' them (sorta like censorship or wtf Santorum is smoking) to pat yourself on the back. The real problems are still there! The real voids and emptyness is still there in their lives, and you don't fill that by getting mindfucked or putting up with bullshit.
But, hey, I guess if youre better at putting up and surviving and suffering quietly, you dont need to fix it, do ya? 'Cause thats basically what I see the programs REALLY teaching everyone. We must create an atmosphere where the crooked cop fears the honest cop, and not the other way around.
Frank Serpico
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Several on Fornits have posted primitive living conditions as abuse. I Others say living in tents during cold weather conditions as abuse, and completely inhumane. Hiking many miles, and canoeing many miles a day is some how abuse. I disagree with all of this for a few reasons.
Well its not that doing this is abuse, because I have done this repeatedly throughout my life. What is abuseive about this is doing it against some ones will, And doing it when they have absolutely no experiance in the feild.
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Saying "you cant think of anything better!" doesn't justify what is being done if it doesnt work. "First, do no harm" is part of the hippocratic oath, isn't it?
More than likely, theyre just growing up on their own. Id do the 'program for a cold' thought experiment - if a program claimed to cure people of colds, and held them until it went away, it wouldnt matter WHAT They did, as long as they were released without a stuffy nose. If they got a cold later on in life, they would be accused of not working the program or not properly internalizing. Same for thinking wilderness crap is actually the therapy, if anything its just the scaffolding.
I'm not coming out here saying that you have to isolate children from hardship or theres no utility to them doing shit out in the woods, but INTRINSICALLY its no more therapeutic than making smores in their backyard. Its not the woods, its not the bugs, its not the tents, its not the latrines, its social interaction and ACTUAL growth and development. You might as well be running a convenience store or selling vegetables out of a truck... hell, that might actually be more worthwhile!
Im basicaly saying that becuase something is tough doesnt make it anything other than just tough. Its like saying "we develop character by making them wear red shirts all day". So what? If they all happen to wear a red shirt or 'tough it out' while they socially interact and build relationships (naturally, NOT by force or coersion or based off of authority/subject duality or manditory disclosure and/or other program bullshit) its still developing via the interaction, not from 'toughing it' or wearing red.
However, not everyone is going to benefit from that. Some people are so socially fucked up group crap wont work. I can say what did help me, making close relationships on my own terms with a few people and developing an intimate bond. That got me out of my hole... running around in the woods would frankly just suck for me because as a kid if I didnt have internet access I basically has no enjoyment in my day, and I had absolutely no trust of anyone else my age or of 'teachers' at all.
And no, making them be around them isnt going to fix it anymore than putting someone with claustrophobia in an elevator will fix that. Hell, hearing 'community' anything makes me recoil even now!
But for those who have the requesite social skills to benefit from it, Im all for it. Im just not going to let it be defined as a 'wilderness effect' as a programmie mother thought her daughter had contracted from sagewalk. Its real friendships and personal feelings of success and winning, not necessarily the manufactured 'toughing it' that is required in a wilderness thing.
Edit: as far as reuniting with parents, I can say what WONT work... giving the parents utter domination and control over ther kids, and sending the kids off wont exactly help either, will it? Putting them on equal grounds, smoothing out the rough edges... and preventing one side from having undue control over the terms and the other. Somehow I doubt programmie parents are terribly keen on listening to their kids and admitting their own mistakes.
The legislature is to society as a physician is to the patient. If a physician ignored side effects of medications like today's legislators ignore the side effects of their legislation, the physician would be accused of malpractice. I accuse today's legislators (with rare exception) of legislative malpractice. Many of the ills that are so obvious in our society are a direct result of previous legislation. Their solution? More laws!
-- John A. Bennett, DO
[ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2005-08-29 07:35 ]
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I can go with a community thing, as long as they still have their friends, and they get to keep their education going. There is nothing wrong in my view with a community help thingy.
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Dude, did you read ALL I said? It was rambling, I'll admit, but you seemed to have skipped over this...
I'm not coming out here saying that you have to isolate children from hardship or theres no utility to them doing shit out in the woods, but INTRINSICALLY its no more therapeutic than making smores in their backyard. Its not the woods, its not the bugs, its not the tents, its not the latrines, its social interaction and ACTUAL growth and development. You might as well be running a convenience store or selling vegetables out of a truck... hell, that might actually be more worthwhile!
I agreed with you :silly:
My point is that helping to let people grow and build relationships and be supported and feel accepted and loved is a good thing, it was the whole time. The problem I have with the camps is that its all on the CAMPS TERMS. That would not have flown well with me, and it was clearly unnecessary. Plus I dont really see the necessity of doing it out in the damn woods! I suppose if I had to find a reason for it, it would be so theyre stuck with everyone else, plus it appears "wholesome" to be walking in pinestraw all day, I guess.
So yeah, want my alternative idea? Dont have them away from their family all damn day, and try my turnip truck idea... or make it some hobby based thing so they can do things they WANT TO DO, with other kids, instead of, say, just setting up camp and doing woodsy stuff... not everyone would like that. And no not everyone can 'grow' on someone elses terms. I did fine on my own terms and time table :razz: I do not believe in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance.
--Thomas Carlyle
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Wow, youth who judges have determined to be a threat to society and placed in community programs get more time with their families than those in RTC/TBSs.
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For what offenses?
The facility I'm familiar with would deny a holiday visit or program break for an 'academic incomplete'. But then, it doesn't appear that they are so much focused on getting parent and child reunited. They do not give a guarentee unless you board your child at one of the traditional BS on their approved list. Too easy to dash the illusion that it 'worked' if the kid goes home.
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My girl friend got no time off, she got days with her parents when she got high enough, but she missed christmas, her birthday, and loads of federal holidays.
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Time off in a wwasp program? No such thing! not at least for a year or two. dont even get me started with the bullshit home visits and contracts and shit.. man. nobody who goes to these shitholes ever talk any good about them, they couldnt. its parents and scammers.. one in the same if you ask me.
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Overlordd- only you would mention "federal holidays". Seriously, that's cute. :smile: :roll:
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Well most schools get off for federal holidays, so I figgured TBS should to.
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Logical.
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TBS- Theraputic Boarding SCHOOL
The Key word there is School. Its a school. Why shouldent they get a day off for the federal holidays? Other schools do.
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This thread is constantly on life support. where are the "positive experiences"?
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TSW, thats whats I ment, a day off. Not nessasaryly a lets send them home day, but a out-on-the-town day, or something like that. I have plenty of days right now that I can't go home while im at college, but I go out in the town and enjoy my self. Something like that would be nice, instead of being locked up on property in constraints of the group all day.
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Dont be a jerk and assume I want kids shipped all around the country for a fucking 24 out day off.
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::smiles:: enjoy my friend.
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On 2005-09-01 06:33:00, OverLordd wrote:
"TSW, thats whats I ment, a day off. Not nessasaryly a lets send them home day, but a out-on-the-town day, or something like that. I have plenty of days right now that I can't go home while im at college, but I go out in the town and enjoy my self. Something like that would be nice, instead of being locked up on property in constraints of the group all day."
You spell like a first grader. Why?
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::shrugs:: just not good at spelling. Every one has a weakness, mine is spelling.
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becuz i am a first grader.. my mommy lets me use her compooter.
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Well, once again I have ventured into the cyber-bickering of the fornits web forum. I don't have much to say, really. I'm not going to say that the program was the best thing ever to happen to me, because it just doesn't happen like that. Anything, everything, everyone-- they are all what you make of them. I went to 'the late' Dundee Ranch Academy, which closed down in may of 2003. Regardless of what I made of the program (or didn't make of it), it is now just a big story of a big mean school with big mean staff and a big, mean, greedy incentive.
BUT, if you want to hear my story, then you can visit this web page: http://www.nr.edu/creativewriting/ (http://www.nr.edu/creativewriting/) and scroll to the bottom and go to the number 5 author. This is a personal essay that I wrote for a creative writing class after I graduated from Dundee Ranch. I've been reluctant to put it on here because I know it will only cause more commotion and drama, and so please do me a favor and keep this in mind while reading it: there was a hot girl in my creative writing class, and I was trying to look tough so I juiced it up a little bit :smokin: It might seem like another big story about a big mean school, but if you look deeply into my words then you'll find the real meaning.
And don't forget also that if I were to actually put my entire program experience into words, then my hard drive would become full. In fact, most of my good program experiences were left out: the friends, the seminars (which sucked ass but made great memories of my friends and me), my nights singing elvis songs to the school, my days at the beach, or the rainforest, or the mall, or just being out and realizing how much I used to take for granted. Everything I learned while I was in Costa Rica were priceless lessons, and I wouldn't trade them for anything on the planet.
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Oh yeah, When you click on that link you need to scroll down and click "essays," then scroll down to the bottom right and click the number 5. Sorry.
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Excellent essay, Christopher. Thanks for sharing it.
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http://www.nr.edu/creativewriting/pages ... page_5.htm (http://www.nr.edu/creativewriting/pages/essays_page_5.htm) <- direct link to it because someone doesnt know how the internet works :razz:
Just one question:
"Within moments of busting down the front wooden gates, the Costa Rican government had set almost 300 rehabilitating drug addicts free to do whatever they pleased."
Uh.. all of them were drug addicts? Bullshit, sorry.If you think yourself too wise to involve
yourself in government, you will be governed
by those too foolish to govern.
--Plato
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So, Chris, did WWASPS pay you that $50 for advertising, like they do with parents who write pro-program letters to newspapers?
"Those awful, evil Costa Ricans... how dare they shut down our school? er, drug rehab program, Uh, no, it's actually a behavior modification program. Well, you know, the program is so wonderful, it can solve just about any problem out there." :roll:
Thank god the Costa Ricans were willing to protect American children when their own government wasn't willing to help. Thank god Dundee is closed. 8 facilities and counting. WWASPS will be destroyed, so there will be no more kids who have to endure what you and thousands of others have endured.
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I read Christopher's essay...It gave me chills...there were moments reading it that I felt like I wrote it myself. The similarities between Straight and Dundee were frightning...there really are only minor differences...the hole was the intake rooms in Straight; Straight was in the US. The Costa Rica program was obviously Straight all over again...only worse.
But that is where the similarities end. Although many of my words would have been the same as Christopher's, I have very different conclusions. I never viewed my time there as remotely positive. My time in Straight was the darkest time in my life. I never felt "achievement." I never felt "inspired." My mind and spirit were completely crushed, twisted and violated in unspeakable ways that no human being should be subjected to. The program didnt "save me"...but rather it almost destroyed me. The dark ominous cloud never went away...it has followed me for 20 years.
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Kids in WWASPS programs are not truly "inspired", "helped" or "saved"... they are just programmed to think that way. Those Lifespring seminars can be very effective.
And that is another form of destruction... being turned into a program-worshipping zombie. Losing your individuality and your ability to think for yourself. Enslaving your mind and spirit to a treatment cult. I can't think of a fate worse than that.
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I went to costa rica at one point in time. Wonderful place, the people there are truely open to every one and are just looking for their own happness and saftey. The food there is so great to, I had a high view of Coasta Rica, that could all change now.
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On 2005-09-10 11:24:00, OverLordd wrote:
"I went to costa rica at one point in time. Wonderful place, the people there are truely open to every one and are just looking for their own happness and saftey. The food there is so great to, I had a high view of Coasta Rica, that could all change now."
Don't forget that the Costa Rican raided and closed Dundee. You have to respect them for that. They saved hundreds of children.
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Anon said-----------"Kids in WWASPS programs are not truly "inspired", "helped" or "saved"... they are just programmed to think that way. Those Lifespring seminars can be very effective.
And that is another form of destruction... being turned into a program-worshipping zombie. Losing your individuality and your ability to think for yourself. Enslaving your mind and spirit to a treatment cult. I can't think of a fate worse than that."----------------
EXACTLY. I was thinking the same thing those "achivement" or "inspired" feelings are nothing more than illusions created by the programming lies.
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if the truely had a good experience ( which probly only 1 in 100 do) why would u have to reward them....now if ud like an essay on how id never done coke or E before the program and almost ruined my life with them after id be glad to......if i had never gone their i could be at an ivy league school right now but im at LSU instead (thankfully on a full academic scholarship definately no thanks to carolina springs cuz i ended up takin remedial classes there when i could have been doing AP work...the program screwed me as well as many other ppl but thankfully i was able to pull myself out of it and still have a good life
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I don't think you were going to an Ivy League school with that spelling and grammar.
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Its a internet forum. People need to understand that, when on line, some people type diffrently than they would for a paper, its not the same format.
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To the baghead who wrotoe "I don't think you were going to an Ivy League school with that spelling and grammar."
::kma:: You pompous jerk! Have you ever text or instant messaged anyone in your life?
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On 2005-09-10 11:23:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Kids in WWASPS programs are not truly "inspired", "helped" or "saved"... they are just programmed to think that way. Those Lifespring seminars can be very effective.
And that is another form of destruction... being turned into a program-worshipping zombie. Losing your individuality and your ability to think for yourself. Enslaving your mind and spirit to a treatment cult. I can't think of a fate worse than that. "
I found this interesting site - kinda explains how everyone is "brainwashed" in these seminars. How dare they "force" anyone to look at their issues! Blast them all!
http://www.spiritpathperu.com/west/landmark/ (http://www.spiritpathperu.com/west/landmark/)
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On 2005-10-02 11:50:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
Does a person really feel better for being forced to examine their issues, or are they just pissed off that some fellow forced them to talk about something to a group of people they may or may not happen to like?
'A person' feels extremely violated and hostile towared that group who forced some faccimality of affection out of them under duress. It's just like rape. What do they call it when you pay someone to rape someone by proxy? I don't think the English language even has a word for it. It's that bad!
Cops; you wake `em up you gotta dance with `em. They lead.
-- Jack McNulty
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous
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Betrayal.
The United States of America should have a foundation free from the influence of clergy.".
--George Washington, Revolutionary War General and U.S. President
[ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2005-10-03 03:33 ]
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Ok, anon. How about you tell us all about that time when your uncle fondled you out behind the wood shed? Come on, don't hold back now. We must confess everything to everyone in order to free our inner children, right? Go ahead and dish.
Faith means not wanting to know what is true.
--Freidrich Nietzsche, German philosopher
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On 2005-10-02 11:50:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"You can force a person to look at their issues, but is it a genuine catharsis of the human spirit that goes along with it.
Does a person really feel better for being forced to examine their issues, or are they just pissed off that some fellow forced them to talk about something to a group of people they may or may not happen to like?"
I personally felt violated by group confessions. I also felt extremely vulnerable, unsafe, scared, humiliated and confused by the very idea of revealing intimate details to a group of strangers that might slam me (which happened often) for what I revealed.
So no, I dont think group confessions made me feel better for examining my issues. Its a very unhealthy way to examine personal issues if you ask me.
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Bump!
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nevermind :-?
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The group confession part is very weird. Lucky I developed the habit of making shit up as a youngster when my parents asked me what was wrong so I was great at making stuff up and pretending it bothered me. Strange is that this type of situation becomes how other people decide whether you are trustworthy or not. Some kids embrace the attention they receive by putting all their shit out their for the group. We all heard about rapes and molestation and all of it. Who knows how much was real. It got to the point it seemed like kids were trying to one-up each other with outrageous stories of how bad they were to their parents, or horrible things that happened to them. They believed in the more they gave up the more the group would like them, and that was true temporarily. They were bound to the group then, because that information could now be twisted and thrown back at the kid and emotionally destroy them. And that's what happened. They tear down kids until they are an emotionally uncontrollable sobbing pathetic child like creature on the floor ready to molded into a magical child. The responsibility for this strange and terrible action rests solely on the shoulders of the adults at the event. Adults of students who attend know exactly what is going on. If any parent attended a Gilcrease seminar especially and didn't go home and pray to god for forgiveness is under the spell of WWASPS' cult. Parents you are old enough to know what's bullshit, your kid is not. When your kid grows up and realizes what a mistake WWASPS was they will remember the adults who were there, because now they are an adult and realize they have that same respsonsibility any parent has, to protect children. Something WWASPS parents know absolutely nothing about.
I am much more closed off now, and any type of emotional growth bullshit can relaly get me going. Tapes, seminars, the whole self help industry is all crap. Crap I tell you! :P
It amazes me everytime I read stuff like this. I could have written that about my experience over 20 years ago in Straight. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
The only[/b] good thing that came out of my time in there (2 years) was that I knew exactly what I was not going to do when I became a parent.
Really nice to see you posting here again EP!
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nm :-?
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blah blah blah its all the same right :-?
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:-?
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I feel another round of cheerful programs stories brewing..........[1971 - 2001] the darkest chapter in Federal law enforcement history.
Committee on Government Reform
Good grief!! I've been looking for your Program Stories and finally found them hiding out in WWASP. Why W?
Anyway, when's the next installment?
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Hey HappyTroll , lets put you in a dogcage while the 125 degree Mexico heat burns your skin and huge red ants are biting you. How about that?