Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Aspen Education Group => Brat Camp => Topic started by: Deborah on July 21, 2005, 09:25:00 AM
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Did anyone else catch the comment that, after 15 days this group of kids were not 'where they should be'- respecting authority and following the rules.
Anyone else wonder why?
How is THIS group of hand-selected 'contestants' different than the typical group- which according to the narrator, would already be conditioned to defer to authority after 15 days?
Unusually resistant kids?
Program not employing all their usual methods/ techniques because America is watching?
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They just say that to make the kids hysterical. They don't really mean that.
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On 2005-07-21 06:25:00, Deborah wrote:
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Did anyone else catch the comment that, after 15 days this group of kids were not 'where they should be'- respecting authority and following the rules.
Anyone else wonder why?
How is THIS group of hand-selected 'contestants' different than the typical group- which according to the narrator, would already be conditioned to defer to authority after 15 days?
Unusually resistant kids?
Program not employing all their usual methods/ techniques because America is watching?
"
It was the same on the first Brat Camp on ABC Family. They were expected to be there for four to six weeks. In fact, it was nearer three months. The film crew were not pleased. They had to stay there for Christmas. :lol:
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On 2005-07-21 08:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
"They just say that to make the kids hysterical. They don't really mean that."
I agree. They said the very same thing in The Seed and Straight. Moreso in Straight. At intake, they handed the parents and client a bit of fiction about a two week first phase followed by a month on second, month or two on 3rd, one on 4th, one on 5th, totallying roughly 6 months. In The Seed, the usual stay was closer to a year. In Straight, it was more like two years. The only time I ever saw anyone finish anywhere near 6 months was this very well endowed former stripper named Pam who landed up on staff and married to a sr. staffer.
At the same time, though, I have to wonder how the presence of the camera crew changes things. From all I've heard, staff in these death marches routinely take down and/or verbally assault any kid who dares to utter the plain fact that "this sucks!" Notice how the rocks for cus words thing has gone out the window since the first ep? Anybody out there who's been through Sagewalk care to comment?
Oh, and btw, anyone know these jokers' real names?History gives us a kind of chart, and we dare not surrender even a small rushlight in the darkness. The hasty reformer who does not remember the past will find himself condemned to repeat it.
--John Buchan
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http://www.sagewalk.com/staff.htm (http://www.sagewalk.com/staff.htm)
http://www.realitytvcalendar.com/shows/bratcamp.html (http://www.realitytvcalendar.com/shows/bratcamp.html)
Here's some of them:
Tony Randazzo, aka "Glacier Mountain Wolf"
Dr. J. Huffine, aka "Flying Eagle"
Cindy Fogel, aka "Mother Raven,"
Scott Fitzwater, aka "Fire Bear"
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Am I the only one here who would feel like a total retard calling someone those indian-wannabe names? Oh, thats probably the point. :roll:
Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest.
Mahatma Gandhi, My Autobigraphy, p. 446
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I would make them call me
"Gunna killya whileya sleep."
Sounds indian enough.
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On 2005-07-21 10:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
Dr. J. Huffine, aka "Flying Eagle"
Should be "Walking Eagle"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.
--John Adams, U.S. President
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Well, I think the Golden Turd award goes to the narrator.
Talk about crappy!
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I know the narrator is a condescending jackass.
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On 2005-07-22 09:31:00, Antigen wrote:
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On 2005-07-21 10:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
Dr. J. Huffine, aka "Flying Eagle"
Should be "Walking Eagle"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.
--John Adams, U.S. President
"
Regardless of everyone's disgust for "earth names", don't disrespect Dr. Huffine. He was my counselor at SW. Really cool guy, knows his stuff.
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"Regardless of everyone's disgust for "earth names", don't disrespect Dr. Huffine. He was my counselor at SW. Really cool guy, knows his thought reform techniques."
Thought reform, brainwashing, whatever you want to call it, he knows his stuff about as well as Chairman Mao. :tup: Go, Walking Eagle, Go!
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On 2005-07-22 19:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
""Regardless of everyone's disgust for "earth names", don't disrespect Dr. Huffine. He was my counselor at SW. Really cool guy, knows his thought reform techniques."
Thought reform, brainwashing, whatever you want to call it, he knows his stuff about as well as Chairman Mao. :tup: Go, Walking Eagle, Go!"
You're an idiot as well as most of the people at this site.
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It's one thing to find something negative about this program or that.
But to make smart-ass remarks (bringing Chairman Mao into it for God's sake) about a counselor who evidently touched a person's life in a positive way, I mean, isn't that why that why somebody went to the trouble of posting here about him, saying something good about him?
How low can you go? I don't know
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Idiot... and this is your professional opinion? On what grounds?
Don't let your dogma run out in front of your karma.
--Anonymous
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Dr. Huffine can suck my asshole.
:wave:
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Here, I finally registered...
Background: I found this forum trying to find other alum of Sagewalk while I was there. No such luck yet.
No, I'm not professional on any other grounds other than the fact that I actually attended the program. It's hilarious but also unnerving to see some of the posts on this site. Referring to the program as "child abuse" is utterly ridiculous. These children are abusing themselves by engaging in dangerous behaviors. By intervening, these parents, whether they are bad parents or not, are doing the right thing in helping their child. While I will vouch for SageWalk on this forum, there are some things I disapprove of, such as exploitation on BratCamp as an example. Now I will take back my comment on calling most of the people on this forum "idiots" but the references to Chairman Mao and Dr. Huffine "sucking your asshole" or whatever was said is uncalled for. I will try to keep my objections civil from now on.
Doug
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On 2005-07-24 13:49:00, dougm wrote:
"Dr. Huffine "sucking your asshole"
:wave:
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Thanks for registering, Doug. But how do you know anything about any of these kids? None of them have stood trial or anything. They're there for one reason and one reason only; because their parents wrote the check.
Are the parents ever wrong? How about the staff? Are the staff omnicient and always right?
That's where I have a real problem w/ these programs and the people who run them. They would no more consider that the kids are innocent or that their own assessments may be flawed than they would entertain the notion that a kid like Aron Bacon was not faking illness.
Yes, Sagewalk employed Aaron Bacon's murderer, Eric Henry during a 9 month diversion agreement following Bacon's death. He was supposed to refrain from involvement in similar programs for pay. He left, when found-out and went on to Obsidian Trails where another death occured.
http://www.contac.org/contaclibrary/tragedy28.htm (http://www.contac.org/contaclibrary/tragedy28.htm)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... art=0#5214 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=874&forum=9&start=0#5214)
Mark Wardle, who was responsible for the death of Ian August at Skyline Journey, was also employed by Sage Walk.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#63079 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=6796&forum=9&start=0#63079)
Wardle also worked at Brown School's 'On Track' where Charles Moody was killed.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... art=0#5214 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=874&forum=9&start=0#5214)
As far as Walking Eagle goes, I don't care how kind or decent he may be to some individuals or even if he likes dogs, horses and cute little bunnies. He associates himself with child abusers and, thereby, tars himself.
What is a committee? A group of the unwilling, picked from the unfit, to do the unnecessary.
-- Richard Harkness, The New York Times, 1960
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;
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It's a tragedy that Aaron Bacon and others have died in these programs, but from what I read in the links you provided, the sources seem rather shady and sensationalist. You need to take into account that there is a mortality rate involved. Several kids have died in camps, but given the amount of kids that have gone through these programs, there is an assumed risk (especially with problematic children) that something may go wrong. I'd like to know what Aaron Bacon actually died of, since there was no mention of an autopsy in the article and one would've definitely been performed in this case. More than likely, Aaron had some sort of disorder/disability/etc, unknown to anybody, that caused him to stop breathing while being restrained. While I don't know exactly the circumstances that led him to Obsidian Trails, he could've easily had the same sort of physical restraint placed against him if he had resisted an arrest (not out of the question for kids placed in these programs).
As for the question of morals and omniscience...no one is completely innocent in any case. There are no perfect parents, there are no perfect children and there are no perfect therapists, etc. But does that excuse the child immediately upon those grounds? Definitely not. I don't want to sound too much like a parrot for wilderness therapy programs, they're definitely not for every problem child, and wilderness therapy was actually probably not for me (I had undiagnosed diabetes when I was sent to Sagewalk, program did not do much for me.) But I was witness to how things are run and I saw several kids that went there, including involuntaries, really take advantage of the opportunity and straighten themselves out. I'd love to continue typing but I need to go drop my cousin off at his baseball game.
Doug
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On 2005-07-24 15:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"It's a tragedy that Aaron Bacon and others have died in these programs, but from what I read in the links you provided, the sources seem rather shady and sensationalist. You need to take into account that there is a mortality rate involved. Several kids have died in camps, but given the amount of kids that have gone through these programs, there is an assumed risk (especially with problematic children) that something may go wrong. I'd like to know what Aaron Bacon actually died of, since there was no mention of an autopsy in the article and one would've definitely been performed in this case. More than likely, Aaron had some sort of disorder/disability/etc, unknown to anybody, that caused him to stop breathing while being restrained. While I don't know exactly the circumstances that led him to Obsidian Trails, he could've easily had the same sort of physical restraint placed against him if he had resisted an arrest (not out of the question for kids placed in these programs).
As for the question of morals and omniscience...no one is completely innocent in any case. There are no perfect parents, there are no perfect children and there are no perfect therapists, etc. But does that excuse the child immediately upon those grounds? Definitely not. I don't want to sound too much like a parrot for wilderness therapy programs, they're definitely not for every problem child, and wilderness therapy was actually probably not for me (I had undiagnosed diabetes when I was sent to Sagewalk, program did not do much for me.) But I was witness to how things are run and I saw several kids that went there, including involuntaries, really take advantage of the opportunity and straighten themselves out. I'd love to continue typing but I need to go drop my cousin off at his baseball game.
Doug"
Hello Doug,
This is not drama. This is reality:
Eddie Lee died at Obsidian Trials. Of an injury so severe, experts claimed that had it happened in front of the hospital where he was taken, he still would not have survived.
Here's an extensive report:
http://www.teenadvocatesusa.org/opedarchives.html (http://www.teenadvocatesusa.org/opedarchives.html)
Aaron Bacon died at North Star Expeditions, run by Jagger and Henry (formerly associated with the infamouse Steve Cartisano/Challenger.
Aaron died a horrific, agonizing death. Competent medical attention would have saved his life. Instead he was ridiculed and made to suffer the worst kind of abuse imaginable for 30 days. He died in the back seat of a truck. All alone, while his counselors talked and made fun of "the faker".
Disgusting and downright criminal behavior, if you ask me. IMO, justice was NOT served in this case, or any other case where a child died in the "name of therapy".
http://www.teenadvocatesusa.org/foreveryoung.html (http://www.teenadvocatesusa.org/foreveryoung.html)
See LOVING THEM TO DEATH by Jon Krakauer.
http://web.outsideonline.com/magazine/1 ... _deth.html (http://web.outsideonline.com/magazine/1095/10f_deth.html)
Barbe
TAUSA
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Doug ...
Why don't you try flying the "acceptable loss" excuse over at 63 days dot com?
I'm sure Ali and Jen would be glad to explain to you why that excuse is not acceptable to them (or any other kid) who survived one of these survival-style wilderness camps.
http://www.63days.com (http://www.63days.com)
Barbe
TAUSA
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On 2005-07-24 15:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
More than likely, Aaron had some sort of disorder/disability/etc, unknown to anybody, that caused him to stop breathing while being restrained.
That's exactly the problem. These sadistic, self deluded sons of bitches "knew" this kid was faking for a full month until he died. Same as you "know" the kids on Brat Camp are horrible kids who deserve what they get. Same as you "know" everybody who claims to have been abused by these people are making it all up, even the dead ones.
Speculations on the Origin of Human Intelligence: "In defense of the Pygmies, perhaps I should note that a friend of mine who has spent time with them says that for such activities as the patient stalking and hunting of mammals and fish they prepare themselves through marijuana intoxication, which helps to make the long waits, boring to anyone further evolved than a Komodo dragon, at least moderately tolerable. Ganja is, he says, their only cultivated crop. It would be wryly interesting if in human history the cultivation of marijuana led generally to the invention of agriculture, and thereby to civilization.
Carl Sagan - The Dragons of Eden - 1977
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On 2005-07-24 15:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Doug ...
Why don't you try flying the "acceptable loss" excuse over at 63 days dot com?
I'm sure Ali and Jen would be glad to explain to you why that excuse is not acceptable to them (or any other kid) who survived one of these survival-style wilderness camps.
http://www.63days.com (http://www.63days.com)
Barbe
TAUSA"
Sorry if it came off that way, I didn't mean to belittle his death at all. But you must understand, with the amount of emotional drama involved with being displaced from your usual surroundings, there is a lot of "faking" and it is damned near impossible for any counselor to be able to tell the difference. I know first hand, I engaged in such "faking" such as throwing up and what have you. I just don't see the point in making these counselors out to be "murderers", many of these people who do this are former "punks and badasses" themselves, and hold a honest concern for the welfare of children.
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On 2005-07-24 15:54:00, Anonymous wrote:
" many of these people who do this are former "punks and badasses" themselves, and hold a honest concern for the welfare of children."
This is one of the biggest problems with the industry.
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Doug,
Consider yourself warned. You will not be well received here, if that matters, if you don't attempt to educate yourself on the topic of discussion slightly before commenting. You have confused all the information you read.
Shady and Sensationalist?
Read the details of Bacon's 'treatment' in this court document:
http://courtlink.utcourts.gov/opinions/ ... r12_98.htm (http://courtlink.utcourts.gov/opinions/appopin/fisher12_98.htm)
Not shady or sensationalist. Sickening and heart breaking to anyone with a heart. And no, he did not have a disorder or disability. Would it matter if he did? They are supposed to have a thorough exams by their own doc and the programs doc and be cleared for the rigorous demands of the program. Apparently the need to fill a spot sometimes takes precedent over accurately describing the rigors. Doc thinks kid is going to summer camp. Yippeee. A little hiking with adequate water, calories, rest, protection from the elements. Right.
Most of the regulars here are familiar with the 'window of loss' excuse for the 40+ deaths due to medical neglect, inappropriate restraint, accidents, and general ignorance and lack of care. We don't buy it.
Can you name any other 'therapy' in which the risk of death is accepted or tolerated? Particularly any 'therapy' for teens.
Do you really believe that the only way to 'save' these kids is to put them in harm's way?
Caneing, flogging, stocks, whips/chains, are highly effective too, but...?
And when you're done reading about Bacon's unnecessary and sadistic murder, you can read about Ian August's:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=30#55721 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3310&forum=9&start=30#55721)
There are many more, if you're interested in educating yourself. Then you can start on the stories of those killed in RTCs and boot camps. Total for all three 101. And my list may not be complete. It appears that programs are being more successful at keeping accidents and deaths out of the media. You could spend a month here reading up on all the sick, perverted, and sadistic things that have happened to kids in wilderness, boot camps, and RTCs; under the guise of 'therapy'.
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That was me.
Also Anon,
How might you feel if you'd been throwing up because you had a serious medical problem that was ignored? Perhaps, dead.
Do you have a problem with erring on the side of caution? If so, WHY?
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Okay, I read the court thing, and I will be honest, I was appalled. The setup hasn't changed with sleeping bags, tarps, clothes, food etc. but never once when I was at Sagewalk were we forced to eat stuff other than what was issued to us, and we didn't consume anything "natural" other than steeping some leaves we found and making tea (wasn't great in retrospect, but it was quite a welcome treat at the time) nor were we made to wade in water (what the hell were the counselors thinking???). I need to say that Sagewalk is much different and in no way did I ever experience any of the abuse that he did. However, I still stand by my conviction that wilderness therapy can be quite beneficial for most kids.
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On 2005-07-24 16:51:00, dougm wrote:
"Okay, I read the court thing, and I will be honest, I was appalled. The setup hasn't changed with sleeping bags, tarps, clothes, food etc. but never once when I was at Sagewalk were we forced to eat stuff other than what was issued to us, and we didn't consume anything "natural" other than steeping some leaves we found and making tea (wasn't great in retrospect, but it was quite a welcome treat at the time) nor were we made to wade in water (what the hell were the counselors thinking???). I need to say that Sagewalk is much different and in no way did I ever experience any of the abuse that he did. However, I still stand by my conviction that wilderness therapy can be quite beneficial for most kids."
Here's a novel idea. Send the parents to a wilderness therapy camp and put them through the exact same regimen ... only instead of reading letters written by their bratty kids, they would be the ones writing letters to their children apologizing for being lousy parents and begging them for their forgiveness.
I can see it now ... the kids coming to pick up their new and improved parents ... riding off into the sunset singing Kumbaya.
:silly:
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On 2005-07-24 16:32:00, Deborah wrote:
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That was me.
Also Anon,
How might you feel if you'd been throwing up because you had a serious medical problem that was ignored? Perhaps, dead.
Do you have a problem with erring on the side of caution? If so, WHY?"
You must understand that erring on the side of caution could be very easily abused. Counselors will definitely address health issues with students who are known not to be problematic. I was sick about 6 weeks into my program, and at first the counselors didn't believe me since I was fairly problematic up until then, but I kept trying to do my daily things (I was throwing up fairly often and had moderate body pain) and I wasn't suggesting that I should go home or such, so eventually the counselors believed me and gave me extra rest (I was allowed to lie in my sleeping bag at the campfire).
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There are a many, many beneficial things for kids, that don't include the unnecessary risk of death, abuse, torture, and humiliation.
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The potential for erring on the side of caution being abused should not enter the equation.
You must understand that many of the kids who died needlessly were seen my medical personnel and/or were hiking with an EMT, one in particular, who ignored her medical training and used the program method of ?flushing out fakers?. This woman knew the signs of heat exhaustion, yet deferred to the program owner?s direction.
My son was left alone, for his ?solo?, with no water, no light, no food, no protection from the elements; with only a black trash bag to lie on and a pancho to cover his head; in an area where he had already had a close encounter with a rattlesnake. He was vomiting frequently all night. He screamed for assistance. No one was in ear shot- all tucked into their nice warm beds at base camp. He was 14. This was cruel, abusive, and neglectful. He could?ve died alone in the woods that night. I feel very fortunate. My neighbor?s son, Ian August, wasn?t so fortunate. He died. I had shared the reality with his mother. She sent him anyway. I?m sure she felt, like most parents, that it wouldn?t happen to her kid. Well it did. And any number of tragedies could?ve happened to you too.
Yeh, they could?ve happened at home, but not under the guise of therapy.
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Wilderness therapy, by it's very nature, is inherently risky but it appears most kids aren't killed because of Mother Nature ... they are killed because of human error, greed and willful indifference to their health and safety.
Consider the tragic case of the boy who died at Catherine Freer after a tree branch covered with snow fell on him while he was sleeping?
Who is to blame?
Mother Nature or human error?
Barbe
TAUSA
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On 2005-07-24 16:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-07-24 16:51:00, dougm wrote:
"Okay, I read the court thing, and I will be honest, I was appalled. The setup hasn't changed with sleeping bags, tarps, clothes, food etc. but never once when I was at Sagewalk were we forced to eat stuff other than what was issued to us, and we didn't consume anything "natural" other than steeping some leaves we found and making tea (wasn't great in retrospect, but it was quite a welcome treat at the time) nor were we made to wade in water (what the hell were the counselors thinking???). I need to say that Sagewalk is much different and in no way did I ever experience any of the abuse that he did. However, I still stand by my conviction that wilderness therapy can be quite beneficial for most kids."
Here's a novel idea. Send the parents to a wilderness therapy camp and put them through the exact same regimen ... only instead of reading letters written by their bratty kids, they would be the ones writing letters to their children apologizing for being lousy parents and begging them for their forgiveness.
I can see it now ... the kids coming to pick up their new and improved parents ... riding off into the sunset singing Kumbaya.
:silly:
"
That's just asinine, not all parents who send their kids to these programs are bad. My parents did everything they could to help me, and quite frankly, you're generalization of the parents of these kids is an insult. One kid that was there was because he was physically abusing his mother. I appreciate the links that have been sent to me about genuine abuses by these programs, but making blanket statements do nothing more than make you look silly.
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An experienced camper doesn't set up his tent under tree limbs that are heavy with snow.
London presented Nature as the enemy. Totally neglecting the ignorance of human's who think they are the masters of the universe and enter that domain ill-prepared. You go with irreverance and ill prepared and you might not return. It's one thing if an adult wants to take those risks, quiet another for an ignorant adult to put a child at risk. A child that's not their own, no less.
Wonder if CF has 'retrained' (educated) their staff on this matter.
The guys who put my son out were Mtn Rangers/Wilderness First Responders and ex-military. None of that training would have saved my son if he'd had appendicitis that night.
Credentials are not security, particularly when the sadistic personality of staff over-rides common sense.
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On 2005-07-24 17:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-07-24 16:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-07-24 16:51:00, dougm wrote:
"Okay, I read the court thing, and I will be honest, I was appalled. The setup hasn't changed with sleeping bags, tarps, clothes, food etc. but never once when I was at Sagewalk were we forced to eat stuff other than what was issued to us, and we didn't consume anything "natural" other than steeping some leaves we found and making tea (wasn't great in retrospect, but it was quite a welcome treat at the time) nor were we made to wade in water (what the hell were the counselors thinking???). I need to say that Sagewalk is much different and in no way did I ever experience any of the abuse that he did. However, I still stand by my conviction that wilderness therapy can be quite beneficial for most kids."
Here's a novel idea. Send the parents to a wilderness therapy camp and put them through the exact same regimen ... only instead of reading letters written by their bratty kids, they would be the ones writing letters to their children apologizing for being lousy parents and begging them for their forgiveness.
I can see it now ... the kids coming to pick up their new and improved parents ... riding off into the sunset singing Kumbaya.
:silly:
"
That's just asinine, not all parents who send their kids to these programs are bad. My parents did everything they could to help me, and quite frankly, you're generalization of the parents of these kids is an insult. One kid that was there was because he was physically abusing his mother. I appreciate the links that have been sent to me about genuine abuses by these programs, but making blanket statements do nothing more than make you look silly."
Hello? Did you not hear the parent whining about the teenager spending money he gave her on drugs?
Guess it never occured to the "parent" that for starters he should stop giving the kid money.
David Van Blarigan (the kid sent to Tranquility Bay back in 1998) had no criminal record. Didn't smoke, do drugs, or skip school.
What he did do is call his younger brother a "butthead", refuse to go to his parent's fundamentalist church, and .... gasp ... sprayed his mother with a hose.
See archives for TIME magazine for info on David Van Blarigan.
IS THIS A CAMP OR JAIL?
Doug .... parents can and do send their kids to programs for ALL THE WRONG REASONS ... but none so wrong as to show their kid who's boss. It's all about control .... not helping kids.
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On 2005-07-24 18:18:00, Deborah wrote:
"
An experienced camper doesn't set up his tent under tree limbs that are heavy with snow.
London presented Nature as the enemy. Totally neglecting the ignorance of human's who think they are the masters of the universe and enter that domain ill-prepared. You go with irreverance and ill prepared and you might not return. It's one thing if an adult wants to take those risks, quiet another for an ignorant adult to put a child at risk. A child that's not their own, no less.
Wonder if CF has 'retrained' (educated) their staff on this matter.
The guys who put my son out were Mtn Rangers/Wilderness First Responders and ex-military. None of that training would have saved my son if he'd had appendicitis that night.
Credentials are not security, particularly when the sadistic personality of staff over-rides common sense.
"
I'm sorry but I couldn't understand that post for the most part...as for referring to the staff as sadistic is yet again another generalization. I enjoyed the company of *most* of the staff there, although there were a few turds (in that they were a little more strict, but not cruel). Not because they "brainwashed" me, but because they are human beings as well.
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Once again, I will reiterate...wilderness therapy isn't for everyone. I know the parents aren't perfect, and that's why during the kid's stay at SageWalk, the parents also go to therapy. As for kids being sent because of religious reasons, that disgusts me because I am an atheist myself, I couldn't imagine my parents being that, for lack of a better word, dumb. But regardless of sending a kid to wilderness therapy for the wrong reasons, that doesn't detract from the fact that for some kids, wilderness therapy is the right treatment.
And I still don't understand why everyone solely blames the parents. Even assuming that the parents are bad parents (which isn't true in all cases like everyone on here seems to believe), does that excuse the child for partaking in bad behaviors?
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Deb .. please check your PM's.
Barbe
TAUSA
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On 2005-07-24 18:50:00, dougm wrote:
And I still don't understand why everyone solely blames the parents.
Because the parents are the ones who make the call, negotiate the deal, write the checks and then follow instructions to help demoralize their kids.
On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind.
--Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat
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On 2005-07-24 18:50:00, dougm wrote:
"Once again, I will reiterate...wilderness therapy isn't for everyone. I know the parents aren't perfect, and that's why during the kid's stay at SageWalk, the parents also go to therapy. As for kids being sent because of religious reasons, that disgusts me because I am an atheist myself, I couldn't imagine my parents being that, for lack of a better word, dumb. But regardless of sending a kid to wilderness therapy for the wrong reasons, that doesn't detract from the fact that for some kids, wilderness therapy is the right treatment.
And I still don't understand why everyone solely blames the parents. Even assuming that the parents are bad parents (which isn't true in all cases like everyone on here seems to believe), does that excuse the child for partaking in bad behaviors?"
Please define bad behaviors. What if the child is acting out because they were abused? What if it's emotional abuse at home? Do they ever get kids and say, oh actually this particular problem isnt' your fault, this is more of your parent's fault. You should go home now. I doubt it, in fact, I bet that NEVER happens. That is a red flag that what is going on there isn't therapeutic at all, they aren't looking at the SPECIFIC cases to see what's needed. You admit it's not for everyone. Well shouldn't the camp be the ones admitting that, not you? They are the supposed professionals that these families turn to for help. Shouldn't they be telling the families what all their options are and refusing to admit certain kids who wouldn't benefit? They don't do that because they are egomaniacs and believe they know "the answer." That is the last type of person that should be a counselor, and the last type of person I would want working with KIDS of all people.
Me, I don't solely blame the parents, I also blame the facility. The kids are, lets not forget, kids. If the parents would follow the same lesson that's being taught to the kids, they would stop blaming them and sending them off to camps in the first place. Maybe that's why kids act out to begin with. But even the kids with severe behavior problems, I just don't see how teaching them that everything is always their fault and never anybody else's is going to benefit them. Yeah, they may stop being angry, but they will be essentially defenseless in the world, unable to see what their needs are and unable to see when they are being mistreated. How can we take proper emotional care of ourselves if we believe that every single thing that happens to us is our fault? Isn't this low-self esteem? The lesson they kept talking about in the camp when they were hiking -- that nobody will be there to help you--- that is sickening. What could be sadder than that? Plus it's all contrived. The only reason they have to do that hike by themselves is because the camp is making them do it alone and carry all that shit so they can't even help each other out. Whatever. These insane egomaniacs need to stop working with kids.
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The parents have a responsibility to thoroughly investigate any program they send their kids to. This includes traveling to the place and touring the ENTIRE facility, meeting the staff and students, reading the student rulebook, asking specific questions, and doing a thorough backround check.
If a kid ends up in an abusive facility, yes, of course it's the parents fault...entirely. It's their responsibility to remain grounded and be sure they are not being bamboozled by these program people.
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Thank you, Bandit. There is no excuse for parents not to know.
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To Megan--
I agree totally with you, and also disagree, if you know what I mean. I totally agree that it is actually the parent's full responsibilty to investigate these places and use...I don't know...a little common sense in picking out a place for their child. If they don't do that, I question that the parent maybe isn't as responsible as is needed to take proper care of a child. I also, and not to contradict that, but I also think the government has a responsibility to regulate these places and make sure they are not abusing kids. Because there are parents out there who are going to make innappropriate decisions, the government should have safeguards set up to catch this sort of stuff. I think sometimes people just assume that they are being properly regulated and that no abuse is going on in an open (and apparently legal) facility like this. I also think the licensing boards are responsible...they are the ones supposedly checking the quality of the professional services offered and the training they obtain. And the government is in many instances relying on their judgement to see if they are operating properly ie if they have a license.
We all grow up being taught that the police are your friends, who do you call if you need help? The police. What do you do if you need help with emotional problems...why you see a "professional." But what gets left out of this equation unfortunately is that all professionals etc. are not created equally.
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Let's not forget the ed cons and the parent owned and operated referral agencies who make a living filling up these programs.
What a racket this is! Parents helping other parents place their kid in a "TROUBLED" program? One that PAYS them a finder's fee?
Shame on them! Heaven forbid they go out and get a real job. One that does not involve preying on desperate parents and their children.
Totally sick!
:flame:
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I don't care what anyone says- gotta love him soooooo funny!
On 2005-07-22 05:47:00, OverLordd wrote:
"I would make them call me
"Gunna killya whileya sleep."
Sounds indian enough."
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Alright, cool, great responses, most of which I agree with. First, I need to "backpedal" a little bit, I have said "wilderness therapy" isn't for everyone, etc etc etc. I have only attended SageWalk and that's all I have to draw my view from. From now on, I will only refer to Sagewalk instead of wilderness therapy in general. Sagewalk, by what I've heard, is fairly laid back in comparison to other schools, and in retrospect, it was not that bad. I was not abused, humiliated or tortured. I am going to start a new thread, describing a typical day I experienced.
Doug
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I feel really sad for these children. But they do as sick as it sounds have one thing we did not- Cameras....Documented evidence. They may because they where entraped and lied to someday when they are 18 be able to have some legal recourse. Will it fix the trauma this has caused them no,But if we would have only had camera's? I see they are getting bolder.
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Anybody notice how pathetic these parents sound? I mean, talk about having a no-gratitude attitude. These parents are spoiled rotten!
:silly:
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I think some parents think like some dog owners.Instead of being parents. They have thier kids,Do not take care of them expect them to raise themselfs,so they do raise themselfs.
The parents throw up thier hands and walk away!Taking no Responsabilty will not Participate in making things right and dump them in someone else's lap.And they don't care how they teach them,as long as they make the problem go away.
The problem with that is the problem is at home.That is where it began. So they pay for the sins of thier Fathers and Mothers. When they are dumped somewhere else. Where they have to learn to be the parent because the parent couldn't the damn parent in the first place. So they are abused into growing up,and sent back home to the same people that will never grow up.And in most cases the child resents the parents even worse because now all thier faults have come to light being forced to grow up themselfs-Therefore making them even more pissed after realizing the injustice and go from bad to worse. So nothing gets acomplished. Because all they have done really is just call the dog pound.