Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => World Wide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools (WWASPS) => Topic started by: Anonymous on July 07, 2005, 01:09:00 AM
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I attended cross creek manor for about 1 year in 2000. I have posted a letter also at struggling teens.com the website if you would like to read it. How dare a place like Cross Creek Manor even exist. Parents are so desperate they don't realize what a major mistake it is for their kids to be there. I've never felt more abused or depressed or lonely or miserable as I did there. It is an experience I wish I could block out of my mind. Not one girl I know of (unsurprisingly) did not relapse once they got out of there. If the LIARS that run and work for Cross Creek did not brainwash or manipulate the parents so well, lets just say they wouldn't make nearly as much money. My heart feels so much sadness and sympathy for the girls that are there now. My mom knows now what a mistake cross creek was. I wish every parent in there would read this and the millions of other horror stories and complaints against Cross Creek Manor and its affiliated programs. Thanks!
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Millions? Is that true? :scared:
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Supposedly there are some 10K or so children in various programs at any given time.
The programs have been around since the 80s. So, over 25~ years and 10K~ at any given time, you could reasonably estimate that there have been a million children/teens through the program pipeline.
And, well, theres the *WTF* about taht girl who spent 13 years in a program, from 13 to 26 years of age :eek: jesus christ that blows my mind trying to even fathom.There is nothing so likely to produce peace as to be well prepared to meet the enemy.
--George Washington
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You are right, WWASP's ideology would be nothing without the full fledged support of parents and staff. It's very sad, and disturbing at the same time. How such a destructive, abusive and just all around stupid program can garner so much support, attention and seeming legitimacy. It sickens me.
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The reason this program manages to stay supported by parents is because parents are unsuspectingly inducted into their required seminar cult. That is a FACT.
They are a dark brainwashing cult. Nobody in their right mind would continue to suport this otherwise. Except for those on the receiving ends of huge financial "bonues."
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WHOA! AGE 13 TO AGE 26???? how did they keep her in there until age 26?????
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On 2005-07-09 09:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
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The reason this program manages to stay supported by parents is because parents are unsuspectingly inducted into their required seminar cult. That is a FACT.
They are a dark brainwashing cult. Nobody in their right mind would continue to suport this otherwise. Except for those on the receiving ends of huge financial "bonues.""
That's :rofl: - Intelligent, educated, parents, numbering in the thousands have been unsuspectingly inducted?
Is that really true?
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On 2005-07-09 15:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
"WHOA! AGE 13 TO AGE 26???? how did they keep her in there until age 26?????"
THEY didn't keep anyone over 18, they choose to go, or they choose to stay after 18.
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No, they really did keep her there by force, corsersion and threat, there is a lawsuit about it going on.
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On 2005-07-10 19:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
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On 2005-07-09 15:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
"WHOA! AGE 13 TO AGE 26???? how did they keep her in there until age 26?????"
THEY didn't keep anyone over 18, they choose to go, or they choose to stay after 18. "
WWASP doesn't have much of a problem with keeps people in its gulags after they turned 18. Look at Kelly Adams' story, for example-- when she turned 18 and said she wants to leave Cross Creek Manor, she was put through a 4-hour pressure cooker to make sure she changed her mind. That included putting her parents on the phone, as well as her little brother, who was crying and saying he didn't want her to die (the poor kid probably heard this WWASPie bullsiht from his parents).
There's a blod called Spring Creek Lodge Experience, that describes the attempts of the SCL staff to convince and pressure an 18-year-old into staying at SCL.
In Jamaica, the captives are not allowed to make their own travel arrangements. So if your parents refuse to get you a ticket home, you stay there, and it doesn't matter that you just turned 18.
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On 2005-07-10 19:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
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On 2005-07-09 09:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
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The reason this program manages to stay supported by parents is because parents are unsuspectingly inducted into their required seminar cult. That is a FACT.
They are a dark brainwashing cult. Nobody in their right mind would continue to suport this otherwise. Except for those on the receiving ends of huge financial "bonues.""
That's :rofl: - Intelligent, educated, parents, numbering in the thousands have been unsuspectingly inducted?
Is that really true? "
Unfortunately, it is. Look up "Lifespring", "Korean POW Camps" and "Synanon" to see where the program is coming from and how it was developed. WWASP is a cult. It doesn't matter how educated or intelligent you are, if you don't know what you're getting into, you still have a chance of being manipulated into being into their bullshit. The Discovery seminar is a good example (read Karen Bean's account of what goes on in there).
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That was Karen Bean's experience. Every seminar has most of the same exercises or processes. What is different is that each person that walks in there has their own interpretation and their own experience. Each person has a different reason for being their. The experiences are as different as each person is different. This Karen was closed from the beginning, so her interpretation was much different from the other 50 or 100 or more individuals attending. She didn't want to be there and went because she said she had to. That's a childish statement in itself. It is NOT a fact that everyone that attends is a parent of a kid in a WWASPS program. Anyone can attend, so there goes your program cult accusation. This Karen went how many years ago?
Personal growth seminars - are everywhere! BUsinesses are bringing them inhouse, there are hundreds of reasons people are choosing to spend 3 days from morning til night gaining more personal insight and a better way to live. Just google personal growth seminars.
You act like WWASPS has the lock and key on parents. They are only required to go to one and choose to complete many more. It's not about brainwashing. That's the "pat" scapegoat answer to your fears.
PHX
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This is from columnist Michelle Malkin, about David Gilcrease and his company Resource Realization trying to reach out into the public market.
See Dick and Jane weep
Home-schooling is looking more and more like the only sane educational option these days.
The latest news of the weird in our public schools comes from Seattle. Last week, the Seattle Times reports, nearly 300 students from two middle schools were subjected to three long days of gut-spilling seminars aimed at "creating a safe school environment free of teasing and harassment."
Principals and teachers traded in phonics for histrionics. Children learned the Oprahfied alphabet -- A for apologies, B for blame, and C for crying. Uncontrollable crying. Kleenex must have made a killing. Here's how the Times reporter described the workshops:
"Sitting in small circles, their knees touching, students shared their own hurt and the pain they had inflicted on others. The tears flowed. In some groups, half the WashingtonMiddleSchool students were crying at once. Applause followed, as the seventh- and eighth-graders stepped up to roving microphones and declared what they would do to mend broken relationships with their schoolmates. Two boys shook hands after one apologized for making fun of the other, and said he hoped to be more supportive."
"A girl owned up to snubbing an old friend. 'I'm sorry that I've been very distant and that I've chosen other friends in school,' she said. 'I'm going to work on that, and I'm going to be a better friend.' The girls embraced."
All bounds of privacy and self-restraint were erased as seminar "facilitators" encouraged their young guinea pigs to confess whether they - or friends or family members -- had ever faced addiction problems, sadness over the death of loved ones, guilt over teasing others because of their weight, or thoughts of suicide. The public sniveling and sniffling ended with a "final exercise -- hugging as many people as possible in two minutes, to the theme from 'Rocky.'" One child, showing uncommon wisdom, dubbed the dolorous debacle a "psycho cry-fest."
It's only the beginning: This bizarre emotional circus may be coming to an unacceptably dry-eyed classroom near you.
Sponsored by a for-profit company called Resource Realizations in Scottsdale, Ariz., and run jointly by a nonprofit organization called Challenge Day, the chief operator of these weeping workshops says he smells a "a huge potential growth area" in the public schools. Seattle students received information packets from Resources Realizations founder David Gilcrease. "While Challenge Day is a critical first step, a one-day learning experience only goes so far," Gilcrease wrote in literature distributed to the children. "To create truly lasting transformation in their lives, most teens need more."
For starters, there's the company's three-day, $295 Teen Discovery seminar. Which leads to pricy summer camps, parent-child workshops, and retreats full of self-esteem-boosting babblers who teach participants such vital skills as learning "to interrupt unconscious mental and emotional cycles which tend to sabotage results." According to the Resources Realizations website, public seminars are also being run in San Diego, San Francisco, Dallas, Ft.Lauderdale, and Chicago.
Unbeknowst to Seattle school officials and parents who raved about the workshops, Resources Realizations has a dubious history. It is connected to a shady racket of companies peddling kiddie rehab programs with names such as "TranquilityBay" and "Paradise Cove" that have been accused of brainwashing youngsters. Yet, the Seattle schools superintendent, Joseph Olchefske, seemed only mildly perturbed that the company coaching Seattle schoolchildren to get all choked up - and then foisting their promotional flyers on the overwrought kids -- is also a defendant in several lawsuits involving claims of emotional abuse at its behavior-therapy facilities.
Where are all those anti-corporate lefties who protest the commercialization of the schools - you know, the ones always complaining about cafeteria junk food being stuffed down the throats of helpless students? These mindless p.c. workshops are junk food, too - completely devoid of academic calories.
Now, there may be legitimate private businesses out there that provide real help to families with emotional problems. But even so, they have no place in taxpayer-funded schools whose primary function is supposed to be filling students' heads - not emptying their lachrymal ducts.
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On 2005-07-11 11:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"That was Karen Bean's experience. Every seminar has most of the same exercises or processes. What is different is that each person that walks in there has their own interpretation and their own experience. Each person has a different reason for being their. The experiences are as different as each person is different. This Karen was closed from the beginning, so her interpretation was much different from the other 50 or 100 or more individuals attending. She didn't want to be there and went because she said she had to. That's a childish statement in itself. It is NOT a fact that everyone that attends is a parent of a kid in a WWASPS program. Anyone can attend, so there goes your program cult accusation. This Karen went how many years ago?
Personal growth seminars - are everywhere! BUsinesses are bringing them inhouse, there are hundreds of reasons people are choosing to spend 3 days from morning til night gaining more personal insight and a better way to live. Just google personal growth seminars.
You act like WWASPS has the lock and key on parents. They are only required to go to one and choose to complete many more. It's not about brainwashing. That's the "pat" scapegoat answer to your fears.
PHX"
Do you work for WWASP or are you simply insane?
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On 2005-07-11 11:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
The experiences are as different as each person is different.
Exactly, PHX! Some, like you, are suckers. Others, like Karen Bean, are not. Simple, really.It may be that our role on this planet is not to worship God, but to create him.
--Arthur C. Clarke, author
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On 2005-07-11 11:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
This Karen was closed from the beginning, so her interpretation was much different from the other 50 or 100 or more individuals attending. She didn't want to be there and went because she said she had to.
Blame it on the victim. It's the WWASPie way. :roll:
It is NOT a fact that everyone that attends is a parent of a kid in a WWASPS program. Anyone can attend, so there goes your program cult accusation.
No, that only reinforced my cult accusation. Cults like WWASP do whatever they can to attract new recruits. Why limit the Lifespring seminars to only one group of people, if you can scam and defraud so many others? It only makes sense that they will try many different ways to recruit people.
This Karen went how many years ago?
What does that matter? WWASP is still doing the same old shit. Some of the lingo or procedures may have changed, but the core of the experience is the same. Break them down, create dependency on the group, feed in whatever ideology you want, and end the whole thing with a huge love bombing fest.
Personal growth seminars - are everywhere! BUsinesses are bringing them inhouse, there are hundreds of reasons people are choosing to spend 3 days from morning til night gaining more personal insight and a better way to live. Just google personal growth seminars.
Lifespring semianrs, which is what WWASP offers, have nothing to do with "insights" or "personal growth". They have everything to do with breaking people down, making them dependent on the group, and convincing them they have reached some "enlightenment" (or as WWASP calls it, "they got it". Notice how they never really expalin what "it" means).
You act like WWASPS has the lock and key on parents. They are only required to go to one and choose to complete many more. It's not about brainwashing. That's the "pat" scapegoat answer to your fears.
Oh, but they do. WWASP does not lock them parents in physically, like they do with the kids. On the parents, they use intense psychological pressure to get them to stay. They take desperate people who are hurting and who will anything to help their children. They tell them that the program is going to help. They reinforce the parents' fears and anxieties. They lock the parents in, alright.
And, yes, it is all about brainwashing. Look up "Lifespring". Look up "Korean POW camps". That is where the program started. That is what it is designed to do. The program is designed to convince people they have been "saved", and to recruit more followers.
WWASP is a dangerous, abusive cult. No point in denying it, WWASPie-- the truth is out.
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True - the seminars are based on LifeSpring and has evolved to something better, from what I've read and experienced. My life is based on my parents and has evolved into something better, too. (My opinion)
When I went to the Discovery seminar, there were around 50 people.
Antigen - Your remarks about Karen - this one of the places you and I are having fun disagreeing/debating. Neither of us is wrong, or right. It's our view. My view, from what I've read, is that she took offense to someone asking her to get real. That's okay. It's not for me to judge. She didn't want to be there and took it very negatively and wrote about it based on her experience.
What is fact, not opinion, is that those same seminars are full - around a hundred in each from what I've heard. Let's just look at the numbers in Discovery if that is still true: 100 people per Discovery seminar. They are in several cities - 7 I think and are held about every 3 months in each one. So do the math. That's a lot of people. How many of them over the years have felt invaded or whatever Karen felt? Very, very few. So as you say, I'm a sucker. Thank GOD, I'm a sucker.
If learning to communicate better, learn to love better, reach goals, get over negative addictions, get over past "stuff," is being brainwashed....get out the sponge!
PHX - hey, maybe the heat is getting to me...LOL!
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The WWASP seminars so ridiculous, if they change your life somehow for the better, well, you really DO need help. I can't possibly see how these seminars would be taken seriously by people not in the program. It just goes to show, there's a sucker born every minute.
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PHX, I read Karen's message ages ago. What struck me was that she became upset when the manipulaters of the seminar asked her to do things that went against her Mormon religion. She was not the first Mormon to write against WWASP, which, by the way, is largely a Mormon organization/company.
My ex-friend also complained about the Discovery Seminar. Just as an aside, she was Catholic. However, she didn't like the seminar folks requiring the participants to be at the meeting room of the hotel very early, and then not opening the locked doors of the meeting room until several hours later. The parents had to wait in the hotel lobby which had few chairs for the large group. She also didn't like the requirement of giving very personal information. But, unlike Karen Bean, she bought the WWASP program hook, line, and sinker.
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True - the seminars are based on LifeSpring and has evolved to something better, from what I've read and experienced. My life is based on my parents and has evolved into something better, too. (My opinion)
Not better. Just more effective. You, and others like you, have lost the ability to think critically and examine what was done to you. The WWASP cult did a good job on you. They taught oyu to conform, to follow, and to depend on the group-- and yo call it "enlightenment" and "help". That is a pretty sad situation.
Antigen - Your remarks about Karen - this one of the places you and I are having fun disagreeing/debating. Neither of us is wrong, or right. It's our view. My view, from what I've read, is that she took offense to someone asking her to get real. That's okay. It's not for me to judge. She didn't want to be there and took it very negatively and wrote about it based on her experience.
Duane wasn't asking her to "get real". He was being verbally abusive. Are you trying to tell me you won't find it offensive or alarming if a man came near you and told you he would rape you or kill you?
Karen, as well as the other victims, were being verbally and psychologically abused by the seminar facilitators. The reason the others didn't respond as she did was because they were manipulated by WWASP and their seminar staff to believe they needed to be there and that this would help them.
How many of them over the years have felt invaded or whatever Karen felt? Very, very few. So as you say, I'm a sucker. Thank GOD, I'm a sucker.
Many of them, I believe. But not all of them were able to sort out their experiences, or had the courage to write and warn people about WWASP.
Falling for a treatment cult, putting your child at risk, and taking blood money-- by yhour admission, you do or did all these things-- is nothing to be proud of.
If learning to communicate better, learn to love better, reach goals, get over negative addictions, get over past "stuff," is being brainwashed....get out the sponge!
WWASP/Lifespring v.2 doesn't teach how to communicate better. It doesn't teach how to "love better" (what the hell does that mean?). It doesn't teach you how to get over addictions or traumas or your past.
It does teach you to lose your ability to think critically. It does teach you to depend on the cult and to consider it your saviour. It does teach you never to question their methods and ideology.
As I said before-- there is nothing to be proud about in the situation you're in. It's just plain sad.
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Phoenix, your argument is (as usual) w/o an basis in reason. No one's saying LGA is ineffective. In fact, it's quite effective. Ask anyone who was in Jonestown, Guyana on November 18, 1978.... oh yeah, you can't. They all drank the kool aid... except the children, who were forced to do it by their parents.
If all your friends at the next seminar decided to go jump in a lake, would you do it to? Please? It'll give you super-human enlightenment and eternal life. I promise!
:roll: It (the Bible) is full of interest. It has noble poetry in it; and some clever fables; and some blood-drenched history; and some good morals; and a wealth of obscenity; and upwards of a thousand lies.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;
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Antigen - what's the comparison with Jonestown intended to accomplish? Other than your attempt at brainwashing? That part is transparent. Let's fear "fear."
Seminars are just one piece of changing. If your life is working perfectly, then there's no need to look at ways to make it better. Mine will never be perfect - why would I want it to be? I'm having too much fun being imperfect.
PHX :wink:
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On 2005-07-11 16:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
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Lifespring v.2 doesn't teach how to communicate better. It doesn't teach how to "love better" (what the hell does that mean?). It doesn't teach you how to get over addictions or traumas or your past.
It does teach you to lose your ability to think critically. It does teach you to depend on the cult and to consider it your saviour. It does teach you never to question their methods and ideology.
If Lifespring doesn't help to live better as an individual, then they aren't similar in any way with Premier seminars. THey did from what I've read.
As far as depending on the group? What? That's so far from fact it's funny. Even in seminar it's not "group think", it independent thinking and that's always been the intention. What's your purpose in saying this?
Another Fornits cult group think statment?? Yes, the attempts at brainwashing are apparent and transparent.
Wonder if Rick Ross will start to include this forum in his Cult watch list?
PHX :wink:
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If Lifespring doesn't help to live better as an individual, then they aren't similar in any way with Premier seminars. THey did from what I've read.
So now you're defending both cults. At least we know where you stand. Looks like you missed all the accounts of those who were harmed by Lifespring. Not surprising, considering how easily you ignore the hundreds of people who've been harmed by WWASP.
As far as depending on the group? What? That's so far from fact it's funny. Even in seminar it's not "group think", it independent thinking and that's always been the intention. What's your purpose in saying this?
I'm saying it because it's true. You have become dependent on WWAP, PHX. You sit here spewing their ideology, you defend each and every one of their methods, you refuse to consider any alternative point of view.
It's group think at its worst. And, no, it doesn't matter how many times your Visions community will tell you that we're all "lying manipulators". It doesn't even matter how many times you tell yourself you're a "joyful, loving, confident woman!!!". Nothing will change the fact that you have been recruited into a very dangerous cult, and that you have become dependent on their ideology, as evident in your posts.
Another Fornits cult group think statment?? Yes, the attempts at brainwashing are apparent and transparent.
Wonder if Rick Ross will start to include this forum in his Cult watch list?
Go read a little about brainwashing before you post, please. Unlike what's going on in the program, no one is making you participate in the discussions here. Unlike in the seminars, no one here is going to go out of their way to scare or pressure you if you don't reveal your "deepest, darkest secret". Unlike in the porgram, no one here is going to put you in OP if you state a contrary opinion.
As for Rick Ross, he has included WWASP on his lists. And for a good reason, too-- it belongs there.
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Phoenix, if you have the courage, you should read up on Jim Jones; how he got his start (promising to cure junkies through the grace of God), running afowl of domestic law and local sensibilities, taking his flock to So. America and, eventually, saving them from a dreaded life w/o his leadership by convincing them all to kill themselves and their children. It's a really fascinating story.
BTW, why, exactly, does the troubled parent industry have so many facilites outside the country?
so long as the priest, that professional negator, slanderer and poisoner of life, is regarded as a superior type of human being, there cannot be any answer to the question: What is truth?
--Freidrich Nietzsche, German philosopher
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Oh, one more thing. "There lives more faith in honest doubt, believe me, than in half the creeds."--Alfred Lord Tennyson
There is not a "fragment" in all nature, for every relative fragment of one thing is a full harmonious unit in itself.
-- John Muir
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On 2005-07-11 17:48:00, Antigen wrote:
"Phoenix, if you have the courage, you should read up on Jim Jones; how he got his start (promising to cure junkies through the grace of God), running afowl of domestic law and local sensibilities, taking his flock to So. America and, eventually, saving them from a dreaded life w/o his leadership by convincing them all to kill themselves and their children. It's a really fascinating story.
BTW, why, exactly, does the troubled parent industry have so many facilites outside the country?
so long as the priest, that professional negator, slanderer and poisoner of life, is regarded as a superior type of human being, there cannot be any answer to the question: What is truth?
--Freidrich Nietzsche, German philosopher
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I know the story. I still don't see the connection. WWASPS programs don't have a single leader. I've never met the owner of WWASPS. I know several of the staff at a couple of the schools.The owner has no control over any of the students or parents. He's not the reason parents admit their kids, go to seminars, see it through to the end (or the beginning if you will) I don't see any of the seminar facilitators with that kind of power in any way.
So, what's the connection between an organization of many people and Jim Jones? What I hear you trying to say is that after all the years they've been helping families (each school) that all of a sudden they are going to commit mass suicide?
If that isn't what you're staying, what is it?
PHX
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The dam seminars - OK - if they are all to the good of those who are able to 'step outside their box' - let me ask you - why is it that the persons in attendance are allowed so little time to eat or sleep or get alone for even a few minutes and think? Why are married couples seperated for certain "exercises"? Why must people be berated and humiliated?
If its not a cult - then why are men and women told to divorce unsupportive spouses - unsupportive of the program, mind you. Why are people encouraged to cut off contact with family members who ask "unsupportive" questions about the program?
I think I know - but I would like to know what you think PX
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The suicide the program demands is the destruction of your independence of thought and personal convictions.
Its why you all sound just the same.
They don't need Jim Jones or anyone like him when they have you flocking like sheep to the seminars.
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Who gives a shit what a parents seminar is like or what their new 'retail' public version is like. The fact remains, when youre a kid in a program you are forced to attend the seminars. If you've never been to one, you have no idea what goes on. If you don't publically 'admit' to something or humiliate yourself in some way you are rejected. If you don't double cross a friend to show your with the group you are sent to isolation until the seminar ends. (as long as 3 days!)
Your arguments PHX about seminars show your ignorance. Fornits 'group think'?!? Are you fucking kidding?! Have you been to a WWASP seminar? If you have you would know what REAL group think looks like. A bunch of crazy parents, upper level kids and one overblown personality known as the facilitator. They are the leader. They decide who stays and who goes, and the only people who make succesful facilitators are manipulative, overbearing, intimidating personalities. A facilitator who knows nothing about you, who is handed a 3x5 card with certain 'facts' written about you, secrets you wrote in your journal that have been conveniently given to the facilitator in front of hundreds of people to encourage your participation. To encourage.. your breaking.
I don't think being made to stand in a huge group of people and shamed for TELLING THE TRUTH is helpful. Being thrown into isolation for honestly admitting you don't know why you are at the facility isn't treatment. It's coercion. Nothing more, nothing less. You either admit that we are right and you or wrong, or you never go home. Plus a few days in iso to think about it.
There is no argument here. None at all.
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To the ANON poster - I am stating my personal knowledge. Dependent on WWASPS? That's even funnier. Sure I'm stating my knowledge. You can agree or disagree. That's your choice, right?
Are you dependent on your stand? Does it have anything to do with being on a forum where everyone basically agrees with you?
I wasn't saying that FORNITS is a cult in reality. If you could see past the statement, it means that everything that you guys say could brainwash a parent into not getting help if they actually believed your stories. And, to make it clear that it's not just WWASPS. It is all the programs that are getting slammed here. Same stuff/accusations, different programs.
PHX
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:wstupid: :wstupid:
Thanks for discrediting yourself so nicely for us all. You truly are a piece of work.
Why do you think I post here? Parents SHOULD know everything that goes on at these programs.
You are a typical WWASPie, nothing new. You think it's us who are 'brainwashing', thanks for showing your true colors. :tup:
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On 2005-07-11 18:52:00, BuzzKill wrote:
"The dam seminars - OK - if they are all to the good of those who are able to 'step outside their box' - let me ask you - why is it that the persons in attendance are allowed so little time to eat or sleep or get alone for even a few minutes and think? Why are married couples seperated for certain "exercises"? Why must people be berated and humiliated?
If its not a cult - then why are men and women told to divorce unsupportive spouses - unsupportive of the program, mind you. Why are people encouraged to cut off contact with family members who ask "unsupportive" questions about the program?
I think I know - but I would like to know what you think PX"
Nothing you are saying makes any sense, Buzzkill. You have quite an imagination. Did you read this stuff somewhere? How can I answer something that can't be answered because it's a figment of your imagination? You think you know? Of course you do.
PHX :wink:
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Must be nice, living in your own private reality. Eh, PHX?
Get real, you are so full of shit you can't even recognize truth and fiction anymore. :roll:
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On 2005-07-11 18:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
So, what's the connection between an organization of many people and Jim Jones?
Just like Jim Jones People's Temple (or Synanon or Scientology or the Moonies, etc.) WWASP (originally David Gilcreac) promise the impossible in exchange for suspended disbelief and total faith in "the process". The beauty part? They never have to actually deliver. When the mark fails at attaining this promised enlightened state (as all people do) why you just blame it on failure to properly work the program.
And, just like Jim Jones, WWASP (and many other outfits involved in this fucked up industry) set up locations in third world countries. Why is that? Same reasons, I supect; because their practices are not legal or tolerated here in America--not even in Utah.
And, just like the 900+ people who killed themselves upon Jones' command at Jonestown, WWASP followers often act directly against their own best interest upon command.
If you ask the Government for the right to assemble you deserve to be told no .
--Jim Lesczynski, Manhattan LP chair, on "unorganized" gathering @ Central Park
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;
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What I learned about the WWASPS seminars is there a lot of fucked up parents who actually believe getting in to touch with their magical child is some kind of miracle.
Crying, sobbing, beating their fists on the floor, gasping for air, you name it I have heard about it.
Why the histrionics? Because the facilitators are damn good at impairing one's critical thinking skills.
They actually train for this crap.
Personally? I say let the parents go to the seminars and pay lots of money to find their god damned magical child.
Just leave the children out of this crap and let them be a kid ... not some grotesque version of an adult magical child.
:smokin:
-
Antigen -
What do you mean by promise the impossible?
PHX
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PHX - Yeah I read it somewhere - the seminair rules leaflet and the BBS.
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Hey BK, you care to answer PH for me? What did they promise you?
Drug War tells us everyone's body is common property
to be managed by the central government for our own
good, even if it kills us. This is Communism!
Drug Policy Foundation of Texas
--Bob Ramsey
-
To sum it up, I was promised that Discovery was a life changing experience.
The thing was/is - I didn't want my life changed. I was/am happy with it the way it is.
What I found alarming was that this was not an acceptable state of mind in the program.
It was argued that my son wouldn't have a drug problem if I weren't somehow to blame; therefore - I obviously needed to overcome my faults, and inadequacies and preconceived notions and most especially the idea that I was "right" about anything - b/c ya know, there is no right or wrong.
I was promised that Discovery would free me of all that was holding me back in life. It would improve my marriage and/or make me more successful at work. It would enable me to more effectively communicate with my son as well as other people. All this was oft explained by the many seminar veterans on the BBS as well as the Teen Help lady who sold me the program.
A Life changing experience, was how it was described, over and over - as if life changing is always a good thing.
I was never happy with the idea of the seminars - but it was after enrolling and getting the rules that I really became alarmed. I became something of a problem on the BBS with questions not unlike the ones I posted here for PHX. I had a suspicion that there was something sinister about it all - it sounded a lot like a brain washing session.
Going back to the 1980's, I had heard James Dobson lament the common use of LGAT seminars by various corporations. He was encouraging people to resist and refuse to attend; and explained that they were cult-like and based on brain washing tactics - that they could be dangerous to a person's mental health, and these corporations had no right to pressure their employees to attend.
From reading the rules, and from the bits and pieces attendees let slip on the BBS, I became aware that these program seminars were much, if not exactly, the same as what Dobson had warned against.
Now that I understand the connection to Lifespring -I know they are in fact the very same.
No doubt, it is for many people Life Changing. Change is not always good. There are common accounts of Lives ruined. Families broken and life long estrangements resulting.
I now view the seminars as the key to the whole scam. Its how they control the parents and keep them co-operating with wildly ridiculous program rules and procedures. Its how they make and maintain the legions of faithful, all stridently proclaiming the program saved their family. Even when the child has not done so well - even to the point of suicide - they will Still proclaim the program's saving grace. But most of those so loudly insisting the saving power of the program and the seminars, still have kids enrolled - often haven't yet spoken to them - So - something is wrong with this picture. These people are not thinking clearly. And I say - that is the whole point.
-
Thanks, but I meant the initial sales pitch. What did they offer you to make you think it was worth the money and other commitments involved in shipping your son to them?
Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?" Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
-- Charlie Brown, _Peanuts_ [Charles Schulz]
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Buzzkill - That was a really long story.
They promised you it would be life-changing. Was it or wasn't it, or did you even go?
That's not promising the impossible from where I sit.
Good question from PHX, Antigen. What have they promised that is impossible?
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On 2005-07-12 13:42:00, Antigen wrote:
"Thanks, but I meant the initial sales pitch. What did they offer you to make you think it was worth the money and other commitments involved in shipping your son to them?
I don't remember hearing any promises. I did hear we would get out of it what we put into it and there were no guarantees.
-
There are also no accidents... right? also, did you find your magical child? :roll:
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Ugh, the bitch is back. Now, Im going to PRETEND Dolphin will understand what I say, for the purposes of anyone reading this thread.
Dolphin, we're accusing the seminars of altering the sate of mind of everyone attending, being manipulative of everyone attending, especially behind their decisions regarding themselves, their families, and their kids in the programs.
We're also accusing them of causing damage by pervading the lives of the people who get sucked into them too deeply. We're accusing them of using emotional and psychologically traumatic methods (or processes) to unsettle their minds and cause a psychological regression to make them more sensitive to suggestion, which is colloquially known as brainwashing.
We're also accusing them of being even MORE traumatic for the children TRAPPED in them becasue of the program they are in, and the coersion or physical force applied to them to make them 'work the program' and to attend and participate in the seminars.
Our claims are backed up by those who went through them, and by people who have Dr. infront of their names, PHDs from big universities, and experience as psychologists and psychiatrists who have studied and/or attended them and called them basically pathological brainwashing.
What you brought up does not rebut ANYTHING that we said. The only thing youre talking about is if its life changing or not, or if you 'got out what you put into it. You cant apply the "life-changing" arguement to something that amounts to torture or brainwashing. Sure, it does change the life of the person who went through it, but thats basically irrelevant to the issue we make with it.
Psychological regression and imparing someones ability to think critically because of the mental state put upon them is what our problem is with the seminars, Dolphin. All of what youre saying is irrelevant to it. Stop avoiding what our problems with it are. You say there is but one way to worship the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it?
--Chief Red Jacket, Seneca Indian Chieftain
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//Thanks, but I meant the initial sales pitch. What did they offer you to make you think it was worth the money and other commitments involved in shipping your son to them? //
Oh sorry - I (as you could tell) thought you meant the pitch for the seminars.
Keep in mind, the sales reps at Teen help are very good at ferreting out what it is a parent is looking for and promising just that.
I was sold an advanced and progressive boarding school, with a very effective drug rehab component.
I was told they could guarantee a high grade point average helping with college admission b/c if the student earned less than a B they took the class again. However, as the classes were small and individuals got plenty of attention, they learned the material well and rapidly.
I forget what percentage I was quoted as far as "success" - but it was way up there.
Now, I assumed I was getting a certain amount of spiel. I figured the actual percentage of kids who stayed off the drugs would be less - even a lot less - but even so - it seemed far better than doing nothing.
"The Program" was described as a points and levels system. The only consequences related to me were the loss of points and levels.
The seminars were talked about as important, but they didn't go into any detail.
In my head, to myself, I figured it would help a lot to just get him out of the neighborhood; and somewhere interesting enough to help him think about something besides getting high. I thought he would have a great time.
Yes, I know - I know - I have often lamented my ignorance. I had no clue such places existed. Neither did any of the professionals I consulted for an opinion on this program.
I thought it would be very healing and would help him to once again value personal achievement and health and so on.
I wasn't really counting on these life changing seminars; even as I at first thought I understood them to be.
I was counting on time away from the drugs and the beauty of the place. I was told the kids got to go to the beach and to go on hikes and nature walks. I actually sent him a pair of hiking boots. Never saw them again. For me - Costa Rica was a real selling point. I thought of it as a wonderful opportunity for him. I thought the change of environment, and the great beauty of the place; the culture and people - to all be very positive things, that would help him expand his horizons - see that life with a sober mind could be fun and interesting and exciting.
When it came to some of the rules - I wasn't told about most of them. I was told about the no calls home until level three - but I was also told this would just be a matter of a couple or three weeks. I wasn't seriously upset with that. I thought it was intended to give the kids a chance to adjust and get over the anger of being taken out of the neighborhood and flown to a rain forest.
I figured after a couple weeks he'd be getting his feet under him and the conversation would be far more productive. It was on the BBS that I figured out the time frame was a farce; and it was my first real bright red flag.
His letters home also got my concerns up - despite all the warnings about how he'd try to manipulate his way back to the neighborhood and the drugs.
But I digress.
I hope this answers your question. I spent 4 or 5 months talking to Teen Help and others before I finely decided to send him - so there were many conversations and I am sure some of the "selling points" have slipped my mind.
-
// no guarantees.//
????
I was told (and I forgot this part) this program was the only one With a guarantee.
You get out what you put into it - Yeah I recall that - but as I recall, it had to do with the seminars. But of corse, it could be applied to the parents program in many ways. Much like you get what you pay for, huh? Keep paying and you'll keep getting and eventually, after your fully baked, we can call you/your kid a success.
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Buzz, what did you think was the value to the kids of those points and levels? What did you imagine would be the incentive to totally change their way of thinking and behavior in order to acquire and keep those levels and points?
Fresh beauty opens one's eyes wherever it is really seen, but the very abundance and completeness of the common beauty that besets our steps prevents its being absorbed and appreciated. It is a good thing, therefore, to make short excursions now and then to the bottom of the sea among dulse and coral, or up among the clouds on mountain-tops, or in balloons, or even to creep like worms into dark holes and caverns underground, not only to learn something of what is going on in those out-of-the-way places, but to see better what the sun sees on our return to common everyday beauty.
-- John Muir
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Well, I personally didn't place much value in them. Nor did I object to them.
I thought such a system might help some kids to make the connection between effort and achievement - and with actions and consequences.
I personally felt my son already knew all this. Prior to the accelerated drug use, he had shown an uncommon degree of good sense and maturity. I really thought, once he was away from the neighborhood and sobered up, the good sense would return.
I felt if I could keep him away from all this long enough, the habit aspect of the abuse could be broken; and there'd be a good chance he wouldn't relapse into heavy use. But while he was away - I didn't want him to fall behind in school; so the educational aspect was important to me.
I viewed the points and levels as a way to maintain a kind of structure and a way to gage a person's progress - not unlike grades in school.
I had no intention of worrying over much about them until I realized how all important they actually were, and how easily and arbitrarily they could be lost.
With the passing of a little time, I became alarmed at the great distress generated by the loss of points. It should not have been That great a concern for these kids. Obviously, you wanted a kid to try not to loose any - but it should not seem like a devastating disaster if they did. That's very stressful - and that kind of stress is bad for people.
I now feel very differently about the points and levels - but early on - I was pretty neutral.
I didn't consider them an important aspect of what I hoped for - But I had no notion they could be used for evil.
-
Just checking in to see if Antigen had an answer to my question.
Buzz - do you keep all your rantings in a notebook? Did you or didn't you go to Discovery?
Again Angigen, What does the program promise that is impossible, or what do they promise at all? You made the statement, why ask Buzz who is notably addicted to her own delusions?
Nihilanthic = with all respect intended: get over yourself. Until you actually have experience and not a fear from what you read, you have no credibility on the subject of seminars or programs. When you comment on something you actually experienced, I'll listen. Hmmm..what could that be other than your need to control other people? Where do you get Dolphin is a bitch?
PHX
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On 2005-07-12 19:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Just checking in to see if Antigen had an answer to my question.
Buzz - do you keep all your rantings in a notebook? Did you or didn't you go to Discovery?
Again Angigen, What does the program promise that is impossible, or what do they promise at all? You made the statement, why ask Buzz who is notably addicted to her own delusions?
Nihilanthic = with all respect intended: get over yourself. Until you actually have experience and not a fear from what you read, you have no credibility on the subject of seminars or programs. When you comment on something you actually experienced, I'll listen. Hmmm..what could that be other than your need to control other people? Where do you get Dolphin is a bitch?
PHX "
You didn't address me in this post, but I woyld like to reply.
You keep on asking people, in all kind of ways, "what makes you think you know anything about the seminars?"
Well, PHX, what makes you think YOU know anything about the seminars?
What you think you know about the porgram are all things you've been told by WWASPS. WWASPS, as we all know, truly don't mind lying if it suits their purposes. They lie about the abuse that takes place in their gulags. They lie everytime they call a critic a liar or a manipulator.
You are delusional. You are so wrapped up in your delusions that you can't see what's right in front of you. The abuse, the brainwashing, the complete destruction of human beings and the insertion of a pre-approved programmed personality-- it's all really happening. You're a proof-- just look at your inability to to do anything but defend the Holy Program.
You accuse Nihil of needing to control other people? Again, just look at yourself. You sent your child to a gulag where his/her life, thoughts, even bodily functions would be controlled, regulated and scrutinized 24/7. Where s/he would not be allowed to look sideways, look out a window, speak without permission, or even cross a threshold without asking for the permission of a bunch of undereducated 19-year-old hired to manage the captives.
You are so wrapped up in this. I know you probably can't remember what thinking feels like, but, still, I ask of you: THINK. LOOK. RESEARCH. There's a reason so many (hundreds) of people are talking about the abuse that takes place in the gulags. And don't give one of WWASPS' silly excuses when you reply to this one.
-
//do you keep all your rantings in a notebook? //
Ha, yeah - its called Fornits.
//Did you or didn't you go to Discovery?//
What do you think friend? Do I sound like a seminar grad? Aren't I just a bit to prone to think for myself (stuck in my delusions, if it makes you happy) and (horror or horrors) maintain I am right, if I think I am?
//why ask Buzz who is notably addicted to her own delusions? //
Because I was a program parent and would know? Think that might be it? Those "delusions" are cutting to close to the bone for your comfort, aren't they? I can tell by your increased hostility and attempt to degrade me and so diminish the value of what I have to say. Think about this PHX. Why does it upset you to have the truth told? Why the upset and alarm on your part? Think maybe you've been Programmed to respond in exactly that why? I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt by believing this to be the case.
*[ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2005-07-13 06:59 ]
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On 2005-07-12 19:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
When you comment on something you actually experienced, I'll listen.
PHX "
So then.... what years were you a client or student of CCM? In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people.
--James Madison, U.S. President
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My grievances, my issues I brought up in very easy to understand terms, deserve to be answered.
Firing back with something they must have told you to say to people like me or the others here, that being "Dont talk about something you havent experienced" is irrelevant. Its a strawman. It doesn't MATTER! What matters is what I brought up.
Do I really need to repeat myself, PHX? No, I dont, you can click on the page buttons, right? Just checking.
Furthermore, if its been acused of being BRAINWASHING by people who have been there, by doctors who went there to research, and by laymen (er, laychildren?) who went there, why the hell would someone WILLINGLY choose to go through that to 'experience' it? I guess those psychologists just dont know shit, and there is no right and wrong, and all hail Gilcrease, right?
We're accusing it of being traumatic, manipulative, and amounting to brainwashing. *WHY* would we choose to go through with that? I guess I need to get tied up and gangraped to know if that is traumatic, right? Well, its YOUR logic here...
Oh, and another thing - we dont have tons and tons of money we can all just throw away to go to these bullshit seminars, PHX. You feel like paying for someone to go? If so, please tell us!
The bottom line is youre repeating your dogmatic "You have to experience it, then you'll understand, and it'll explain and change everything!" (when someone doesnt want to take part of it) and then "Well, no promises! Its all about what you make of it and what you put into it" (when someone went and it didnt work).
So, keep changing your story, keep flip-flopping, and keep worshipping that asshole sheriff and wasting your income (which I'd love to know how the hell a moron like you can get, must be your husbands or old family money :idea:) and keep referring people to mind-control seminars and worshipping the authority figures youve been taught to, becuase youve been made into a damn adult child.The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism.
--William Osler
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On 2005-07-13 09:26:00, Antigen wrote:
"
On 2005-07-12 19:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
When you comment on something you actually experienced, I'll listen.
PHX "
So then.... what years were you a client or student of CCM? In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people.
--James Madison, U.S. President
"
late 1998- early 2000 - Cross Creek - mom
AND -
BUZZ - you diminish your own credibility every time you post. I don't have to do that for you.
PHX
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On 2005-07-13 22:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
late 1998- early 2000 - Cross Creek - mom
PHX"
And you seriously think that makes you qualified to comment on what happens to the students at CCM?
You're delusional, honey!
They used to burn witches. Today we laugh at them. Today we jail people for marijuana. Tomorrow they'll laugh at us.
--Robert "Rosie" Rowbotham
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//you diminish your own credibility every time you post.//
OK - if you say so; but if so, you should have no problem coming up with specific examples, of how exactly, I do this.
What have I related that you know is un-true? Not think - but know. There is a difference.
//And you seriously think that makes you qualified to comment on what happens to the students at CCM?
You're delusional, honey! //
This is the truth, and so sad. They really do think they know.
I was just talking to a friend this morning about how I too thought I knew. . .
Even after reading account after account - b/c Dundee wasn't listed I didn't think it applied to our situation. It has been a slow process - and at times, a very painful and humiliating one. I think that alone is what keeps so many of these Programmed parents from letting the truth enter their reality.
Just like any victim of any fraud - they don't want to admit it, b/c if they do, then they have to admit to having been major chumps.
This common human tendency to hide or deny that one has been a victim of fraud, combined with the programming, is a powerfully deluding force.
-
On 2005-07-14 07:44:00, Antigen wrote:
"
On 2005-07-13 22:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
late 1998- early 2000 - Cross Creek - mom
PHX"
And you seriously think that makes you qualified to comment on what happens to the students at CCM?
You're delusional, honey!"
I couldn't agree more! This discredits everything you say in my eyes, PHX.
WWASP PRISONER 2000-2001
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Were you at CCM? If so, please e-mail me at jahatitus@oregonfast.net
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On 2005-07-14 07:44:00, Antigen wrote:
"
On 2005-07-13 22:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
late 1998- early 2000 - Cross Creek - mom
PHX"
And you seriously think that makes you qualified to comment on what happens to the students at CCM?
You're delusional, honey!
They used to burn witches. Today we laugh at them. Today we jail people for marijuana. Tomorrow they'll laugh at us.
--Robert "Rosie" Rowbotham
"
What do you mean by "what happens" to the students at Cross Creek? That's an interesting comment, can you be a little more specific?
That's similar to the comment that "they" promise the impossible, that still hasn't been answered.
Where did you get the idea that I was commenting on what it would be like to be a student? Reading someone else's posts?
PHX
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:wstupid: :wstupid: :wstupid: :wstupid:
-
Hey BuZZ - What makes you qualified? Reading? From what I've read you never had a mother's experience by either visiting your son's school or attending the amazing seminars or support groups.
You were on the parent's BBS until you started slamming Mormon's, right?
You transferred your son to Abundant Life Academy (Christian) that seems far worse than anything else I've read, however, I don't believe they are abusive either.
You're taking your butt hurt ego a little far, from what I see. From my side, you're a dangerous person blaming a program for not being what you wanted - someplace that would allow you to control your kid.
These schools are incredible - giving us parents ways to help our own lives too.
I read your life was perfect and you didn't need to make it better. Don't slam those of us who were in breakdown and needed to learn a better way to live.
PHX
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On 2005-07-16 16:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Don't slam those of us who were in breakdown and needed to learn a better way to live.
PHX"
Are you being serious? A WWASP program?
-
On 2005-07-16 16:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Hey BuZZ - What makes you qualified? Reading? From what I've read you never had a mother's experience by either visiting your son's school or attending the amazing seminars or support groups.
You were on the parent's BBS until you started slamming Mormon's, right?
You transferred your son to Abundant Life Academy (Christian) that seems far worse than anything else I've read, however, I don't believe they are abusive either.
You're taking your butt hurt ego a little far, from what I see. From my side, you're a dangerous person blaming a program for not being what you wanted - someplace that would allow you to control your kid.
These schools are incredible - giving us parents ways to help our own lives too.
I read your life was perfect and you didn't need to make it better. Don't slam those of us who were in breakdown and needed to learn a better way to live.
PHX
"
Surrendering your mind to the cult, spending all your money on your child's incarceration, having your child, your own flesh and blood, locked up and tortured-- how does that qualify as "a better way to live"?
The seminars are not "amazing", neither are the gulags "incredible". They are all meant to break people down, to destroy-- and to make the captives believe they have found salvation.
You have completely gave up on your ability to think. You are incapable of posting anything but programmed babble. How dare you give anyone any feedback about what they did with their kids, when you paid a Lifespring-descendant cult to torture and brainwash your own child.
You are pathetic.
-
On 2005-07-16 16:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
I read your life was perfect and you didn't need to make it better. Don't slam those of us who were in breakdown and needed to learn a better way to live.
PHX
You're still in breakdown. Only now, you've made a cash business out of dragging down whoever you can scam into it with you. ...the primary reason to outlaw marijuana
is its effect on the degenerate races.
Harry Anslinger
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PHX -
Qualified? Qualified for what? Posting my thoughts and experiences on a forum board? Why Yes, I think I am :wink:
What qualifies me? Having thoughts about my experiences. You should try it sometime.
Booted - well, it was like this -
I got booted for asking a question:
"What chance does a Catholic family rep have of working their way up to Program Director?"
I was off with in seconds of that post hitting the board.
So, why was it so awful to ask that question? Maybe you'll want to answer it, finely, after all these years.
Now, as far as me blaming the program for not being what I wanted - Not so. I didn't blame them for not being what I wanted. I blame them for lying to me about what they are. And I blame them for what they did to my son; and the sons and daughters of many, many other parents. AND I have every right to say so.
You have still not come up with one thing I have said about your beloved program, or the damned seminars, that is not true.
You are still simply reacting in your pre-programmed way. De-value and invalidate all program critics. Don't listen! Don't think! Cast them out with the rest of the BMWs and the Chattering Pigs, and take another big gulp of Kool aid.
PS:
Never said my life was perfect. Said I was happy with it the way it was. You should try that sometime too.
*[ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2005-07-16 17:27 ]
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BMWs
I assume that isn't a car?
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On 2005-07-16 17:24:00, BuzzKill wrote:
"PHX -
Qualified? Qualified for what? Posting my thoughts and experiences on a forum board? Why Yes, I think I am :wink:
What qualifies me? Having thoughts about my experiences. You should try it sometime.
Booted - well, it was like this -
I got booted for asking a question:
"What chance does a Catholic family rep have of working their way up to Program Director?"
I was off with in seconds of that post hitting the board.
So, why was it so awful to ask that question? Maybe you'll want to answer it, finely, after all these years.
Now, as far as me blaming the program for not being what I wanted - Not so. I didn't blame them for not being what I wanted. I blame them for lying to me about what they are. And I blame them for what they did to my son; and the sons and daughters of many, many other parents. AND I have every right to say so.
You have still not come up with one thing I have said about your beloved program, or the damned seminars, that is not true.
You are still simply reacting in your pre-programmed way. De-value and invalidate all program critics. Don't listen! Don't think! Cast them out with the rest of the BMWs and the Chattering Pigs, and take another big gulp of Kool aid.
PS:
Never said my life was perfect. Said I was happy with it the way it was. You should try that sometime too.
*[ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2005-07-16 17:27 ]"
Gee, I'd like to pay that webmaster (who gooted you) to let you back on, so you would have somewhere else to speechify (yes, you stupid bitch, it's a word.) For months, you have been living at this board. You've become another Joyce Harris. The difference, however, between you and her, is that she provides amusement in connection with her personal life. You, come from total obscurity, and treat us to your diatribe 24/7. Don't you have any life at all besides Fornits? You made your point, months ago. You don't like WWASP, your son was injured somehow by them, and now you're making yourself feel better by posting your redundant comments here day after day. WWASP does have to be shut down, but you are still the piece of crap that put your son there. By the way, where is your son now Karen?
-
Hello Susan.
And how are you this fine morning?
Or is this Carey?
Very hard to tell the difference anymore. Always did say the two of you were exactly the same. Never expected you to so publicly prove my point tho.
But I'm betting on this being Susan, as you mention Joyce, and I don't think Carey would.
Thank you for your concern about the quality of my life; tho I assure you It is unwarranted. As I explained to the seminar junkie - I am happy with my life - fornits an all.
Hows your life going? Hows the internet dating going? Found a husband yet? Did the nose job heal?
Thank you for asking about my son; tho I suspect all you want is news of trouble so you can gloat.
Well, anyway, he is staying with cheezy and delicious; but this is OK b/c Cheezy doesn't mind that he and Diclinous had a bit of a fling while Cheezy was in jail. He is now seeing Kitty, who appears to be a sweet sort of girl. Went to her daddy's birthday party yesterday, after stopping by here to drop off the warranty papers on his tires - so we could get the blown one fixed. So, go on and gloat if it will make you happy. I was happy that his hair is no longer electric blue - so you go on and be happy to.
As for me being another Joyce Harriss - don't you mean she has become another me? I was here first, after all.
Joyce and I actually have little in common, except the common contempt for the likes of you.
I was just thinking this morning, as I looked over the Whitmore forum, that she must be having one hell of an impact.
You've got her name plastered all over that forum, in these sad and transparent attempts to discredit her.
She must have a lot of truth to tell you'd rather not have told, for you to go to so much trouble to invalidate her testimony. Its not working. It only makes you look desperate, and loony.
If you want me back on the BBS - try and ply your influence with Bobby or Ken. I'd happily jump back on if only they'd let me!
As for my 24/7 diatribe - its only 24/ 7 if you spend all day every day reading it - you idiot.
-
Karen, you're a cunt.
-
If they only knew
Posted: 2005-07-17 09:17:00
Karen, you're a cunt.
Post URL: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =60#116956 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=10758&forum=44&start=60#116956)
Like I said:
Its not working. It only makes you look desperate, and loony.
* [ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2005-07-17 09:33 ]
-
Buzz - I agree that name calling is immature and a child's response.
I've been stating facts about what I know about you. I'm not discrediting you, just letting you know you are being challenged.
It's too bad that the WWASPS parent BBS has changed to not allow us to see posts from booted members.
If they didn't then I would seriously consider posting excerpts from your rantings the last few days you were on there. It went well beyond asking about a Catholic moving up the ranks. That in itself was bizarre enough. So don't come on here and lie about what really happened. Your distaste (put mildly) for anyone outside of your Christian beliefs, was very apparent and unnecessary and served no purpose except your own.
You chose ALA to move your son to because he said he wasn't getting anything to read at Dundee Ranch and they didn't even have a Bible. That's fine, but that's not all, right? He wasn't hurt, you were though, butt hurt...
You made the best choice you could under the circumstances, so leave the rest of us alone that feel our choices are/were the best for our family.
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You made the best choice you could under the circumstances, so leave the rest of us alone that feel our choices are/were the best for our family.
Just because you feel your choice was the best doesnt mean that it IS, AT ALL. Brainwashed fools, or just fools, or those who were lied to, or people who dont care about what happens to their kids, or those who actively hate them, are all EQUALLY wrong.!
The forum is here for people to talk and for facts to get out that cant get out on other, controlled forums or through the programs firewall of communcation they put upon their facility and the children trapped within.
If you dont want someone to speak their mind and possibly say something that would be against what you 'feel' is right about sending kids off to gulags, go find some forum where everyone sings the praises of children being kidnapped and locked up like a shrill greek chorus and ban people who might disagree, and get out. Or, just go back to some damn premier/resource realizaions seminar and get mindfucked again.
:wave: Dont let the door hit your ass on the way outAny priest or shaman must be presumed guilty until proven innocent.
--Robert A. Heinlen, American science-ficiton author
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Nihilanthic - You say "facts" are being shared here, so what facts can you share that you have first hand knowledge of?
From what I've read, you don't agree in personal growth, haven't been to any of the schools you slam, believe what the kids say that went to the schools but either didn't complete it, or when they got home the going got tough and they blame the program...yada yada yada.
It's obvious you believe what you read on this "unmonitored" forum.
What the hell are you so scared of? Maybe a Dr. Phil coming to blow your judgmental shit out of the water??
PHX
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On 2005-07-17 22:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Nihilanthic - You say "facts" are being shared here, so what facts can you share that you have first hand knowledge of?
From what I've read, you don't agree in personal growth, haven't been to any of the schools you slam, believe what the kids say that went to the schools but either didn't complete it, or when they got home the going got tough and they blame the program...yada yada yada.
It's obvious you believe what you read on this "unmonitored" forum.
What the hell are you so scared of? Maybe a Dr. Phil coming to blow your judgmental shit out of the water??
PHX
"
What facts are you sharing, PHX? You've never been imprisoned within a WWASP facility. All you know about these places is what WWASP/Reasouce Realizations told you, and what you read on a highly monitored, highly moderated BBS designed to show only one side of the issue.
So, what are the facts YOU have first hand knowledge of?
You haven't been in any of the schools you defend. You have only seen a small part of the Program, the part designed to convince parents that the Program is their saviour.
You sound like the scared one, PHX. Otherwise you wouldn't being here, trying so hard to defend the cult.
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On 2005-07-17 22:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Nihilanthic - You say "facts" are being shared here, so what facts can you share that you have first hand knowledge of?
From what I've read, you don't agree in personal growth, haven't been to any of the schools you slam, believe what the kids say that went to the schools but either didn't complete it, or when they got home the going got tough and they blame the program...yada yada yada.
It's obvious you believe what you read on this "unmonitored" forum.
What the hell are you so scared of? Maybe a Dr. Phil coming to blow your judgmental shit out of the water??
PHX
"
How the fuck can I be against personal growth? When did I say I was? Did I? No, I didn't. Im not against growing up and maturing.
What I am against is the bullshit that is CALLED "personal growth", (which is a bit like putting shit on a shingle in a wrapper and calling it beef wellington) that the programs peddle. The seminars are not 'personal growth' its a mindfuck and emotional manipulation, its being psychologically punished and brainwashed. Go read up on LGAs and sensitivity training, Synannon Games and the Lifespring/Wellspring/EST type bullshit. It might not be exactly like Resource Realizations bullshit but it sure as hell rhymes.
Oh, and there are people who graduated and have a lot to say about them. Talk to Perrigaud sometime, dumbass. She graudated from CCM and thinks its corrupt bullshit and needs to be stopped. OOPS!? Oh wait, you need to spew more canned responces against HER now. Sorry Perri!
And no, I dont believe everything I read. However when many many people say the same thing and it all matches up, and theres evidence and circumstances to support it, I might start to think its right. I dont believe in a god damn thing except a few virtues, FYI, Phoenix.
And just so you know, Im not scared of anything. Nice try with your little emotional attacks you picked up from your facilitator bitch! :lol:
Im not scared of "a Dr. Phil", in fact Id LOVE to tear into him personally or into one of the motherfuckers who emulate him and/or his style. And as far as the seminars go, they cant phase me. I know the bullshit going in so I wont be surprised, shocked, or feel helpless or worthless like you did (and frankly ARE) but guess what? I dont have tons and tons of money to travel, take time off work, and blow a few grand on some bullshit seminar.
You wanna pony up the dough to send me somewhere, bitch? Try me. Just fucking try to call my bluff and we'll see where it goes. God is the Asylum of Ignorance.
--Baruch Spinoza, Dutch-Jewish philosopher
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PHX -
I too, wish very much you could pull up my old posts. I have tried to get someone to do that for me a few times, but have had no luck. I guess I now know why - you can't.
Now, why is that? What are they So very afraid of?
As for the final postings - "What chance does a Catholic family rep have of working their way up to program director?" was THE question that got me booted. Now why is that such a terrible question?
The odd thing was, what I was primarily asking about in that final thread was OP. I had learned about OP in a news paper article some time before, and had been wanting some kind of way to bring it up and ask about it, with out getting booted.
Then a TB grad posted an mentioned OP as well as some other matters.
I was primarily asking about OP - but someone (maybe you) brought up "the Mormon thing." Ken Kay was actually posting declaring wwasp was not a "Mormon program". I agued that it was Mormon owned and operated and that they did use the kids as a captive mission field.
The debate continued with me finely asking the last question - which wasn't at all bizarre in context - and which to this day I would like an answer to.
As for my questions about OP - mostly went with out comment. I recall one poster declaring that they had been to Dundee and been all over the grounds and didn't see any such place. They were very offended I would suggest such a thing as OP existed - but it did/does.
I was amazed that the question about the existance of OP went with out much comment - but that people went balistic over "the Mormon thnig".
I really Do wish you could pull up that thread and post it.
As for the reading thing you mention - you are missing the point by a mile. My son HAD plenty to read. Hell, I did a lot to supply their pitiful little library. I sent several Large boxes full of book and movies, by way of that lady with the car dealership, who could send them over at a discount.
And I sent my son books of his own to read. Some of which he actually got.
The problem with the Bible comes from the time he was invited to a Bible study. He was kind of excited about it, as it would be a break from the monotonous routine. He was even willing to get up early on the one day they were allowed to sleep in a bit, to attend. However - when he got there - they weren't studying the Bible - but rather the book of Mormon. This was not acceptable and he didn't want to be there. He had a hard time getting them to let him leave. This was not acceptable.
If it weren't True, and UN-Acceptable, it would not have been such a touchy issue. So touchy it couldn't even be talked about.
That ought to tell you something.
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PHX
FYI, WWASP facility Tranquility bay has staf who have raped their students while in their care .Is that ok with you?
They negelect to mention those facts in the seminars. I know I 've been there. I too believed the crap they tell parents. What do the facilitators have to hide? They facilitate at the schools our children are enrolled in.
Program administrators and others know those facts and have chosen to do NOTHING about it. They continue to lie to us and continue to abuse our children.
Wise up .You will regret this journey in your family's life.
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On 2005-07-17 23:19:00, Anonymous wrote:
believe what the kids say that went to the schools ...
Hey, me too! Don't leave me out. I also believe kids who were actually there over people like you who were never there and who make a living selling it. And I have a little more reason than Niles to believe it. Not only are the kids stories consistent w/ each other, they're also consistent in many ways w/ others' stories about Synanon based programs.
When they talk about how overwhelming and just mind bending the seminars are, I know what they mean. We had raps full time. Any moment or hour of it, taken alone, seems like just petty inconvenience. But taken all together in the context of all the rules and rituals, it's breaking. Ya' just can't make this shit up, PHX. Fear is the parent of cruelty, therefore it is no wonder if religion and cruelty have gone hand-in-hand.
--Bertrand Russell, British philosopher, educator, mathemetician, and social critic
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Someone asked:
BMWs
I assume that isn't a car?
In the context used here, a BMW is a Bitchen, Moanin' Whiner. That being a person who disapproves of the Program's tactics; Complains about the rules, questions or doubts the Program.
People who openly speak out against the Program are Chattering Pigs. At least, these were the two common terms in use when I was on the BBS. Its all part of the Us against Them mentality so common in the operation of any cult.
PHX - you haven't posted anything you *know* about me - but what you *think* about me. There is a difference.
You *Still* have not pointed out one thing that I have said that is not true. You have called me names and you have tried to discredit and invalidate my testimony - but you have yet to establish any *Factual* grounds for your accusations.
*
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There are always so many assinine things in a PHX post, it is hard to comment on it all - but I wanted to go back to this:
// He wasn't hurt, you were though, butt hurt...//
Why do you keep saying I was Butt hurt? Is that some kind of regional term? We don't use it 'roun here.
Anyway - you are talking out your ass.
You have no idea what I was thinking when I pulled my son, and no idea how he was hurt during his time at Dundee. You know nothing about it.
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PHX, where are my plane tickets? Oh, and youre paying for room and board and transportation, too. If you got the money for a program you got the money to put some chattering pig up and feed him for a weekend :razz:
When dogma enters the brain, all intellectual activity ceases.
Robert Anton Wilson