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Messages - landyh

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16
The Seed Discussion Forum / Good Friends/Reunions Only
« on: December 13, 2005, 08:22:00 PM »
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On 2005-12-13 09:37:00, Antigen wrote:

"One word, Landy: Tulia

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense

--Buddha


"

Ginger,
I think we probably can find some common ground on this kind of thing. What happened in Tulia was despicable. I wonder why our country doesn't get duly alarmed over things like this including Waco and Ruby Ridge. Can we some it up by parphrasing a portion of an old quote? "When they came for me there was no one left". On the other hand if you go back to my original comment to which you replied you might notice I was just trying to take your advice about lightening up. :wink: Listen if you want to look at the slow erosion of our freedoms take a look at the DUI laws around the country and how they allow "legal" exceptions to due process under the law. Prior restraint, denial of a trial by a jury of your peers. This crap is all taking place write here in our sweet country because people think well we really need those drunks off the road anyway. If you want to really get scared go to Association of Motor Vehichle Department Administrators and read what their long term goals are. Doesn't anybody see the implications of a National linked Database of Driver Licenses all tied to a social security number and compulsory for State compliance by ties to funding mandated by TEA. Notice that your kids if you have them probably didn't make it out of the hospital without a social security number and certainly won't make it to a publicly funded school without one. Its Ok now to incarcerate sexual offenders who have already served their time for there crimes but its all Ok because it isn't you. Not yet anyway. I haven't even touched on the implications to our rights of the Patriot Act. To sum it up I think it was Franklin who said " if you give up liberty for security you have neither liberty nor security" All I can say is make sure your papers are in order and with you.

17
The Seed Discussion Forum / Good Friends/Reunions Only
« on: December 12, 2005, 11:42:00 PM »
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On 2005-12-12 20:32:00, Antigen wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-12-12 17:14:00, landyh wrote:



Well Ginger you have to admit it does have a slightly softer tone to it. :wink:"




Well yes. And "Herr Goldstien, I have orders to escort you to the train, for your own protection." has a far softer tone to it than a loud pounding on the door in the night, followed by a search and a ride in a Black Maria. But the end result is the same.

No citizen of a liberal and democratic nation profits from a victorious war.
--Ludwig von Mises

"

Thats a beautiful reply and in the proper context which doesn't seem to be here it is valid. But then I don't really want you to be quiet anyway nor do I really wish to provoke you too much. :wink: But you know that already.

18
The Seed Discussion Forum / Good Friends/Reunions Only
« on: December 12, 2005, 08:14:00 PM »
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On 2005-12-11 16:36:00, Antigen wrote:

"
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On 2005-12-07 06:23:00, Magpie wrote:


So this section hopefully will be for people who want to reunite with old friends or just talk about their good experiences. So let's see if people can keep the negative stuff in the other sections and keep this one for good times.




How do you read that, darlin'?

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
--Albert Einstein


"

Well Ginger you have to admit it does have a slightly softer tone to it. :wink:

19
The Seed Discussion Forum / Should some distinctions be made ?
« on: December 09, 2005, 06:59:00 PM »
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On 2005-12-09 13:29:00, jgar wrote:

"Hey Fuelaw,



You put it very well and could not agree more with you. All these factors did play very important roles on how people perceived their experiences at the Seed. You expressed these factors very well. To condemn someone for their view in my opinion would be simply wrong and arrogant. I have posted mostly pro Seed but this being the stand that I have decided to take does not for me negate other people whose opinions may differ. This being said I will also admit it has opened my eyes and has given me a certain freedom to critically exam my own experience.



On certain occasions I have seen and felt the anger of those who have violently expressed their opinions as the only true and legitimate view due to whatever their Seed experience might have been.

For the most part I have found that on this forum on most occasions? reason and level headedness has prevailed from both sides of this discussion.  I hope this continues to be the norm.





[ This Message was edited by: jgar on 2005-12-09 13:31 ]"

Here, Here. I couldn't have said it better myself although I thought I already had in another thread. :wink: Not that it doesn't bear repeating. The only thing I would disagree with and maybe that isn't the right word but I have a contrary perception about one thing. My young age at the time I first went to the Seed actually made it a better experience for me. I realize that my experience was unique. They simply had never previously dealt with anyone as young as nine. Because of that I was an anomaly and something of an object of interest in the program. Just being a cute kid earned me a tremendous amount of positive attention as I have mentioned previously. I think I can say with some honesty that the almost universally positive feedback I recieved then colors my peception of my first experience there.   I just think that you were closer to home when you talk about the role of time and how it shaped our experiences. By the time I got there the second time I was around 12 I think, but they had become somewhat jaded to my charms by then. :wink:

20
The Seed Discussion Forum / Good Friends/Reunions Only
« on: December 08, 2005, 10:32:00 PM »
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On 2005-12-08 17:15:00, GregFL wrote:

"Landy, it is because of this forum that we understand that the seed was an idea that developed and dramatically changed in short periods of time.  We all know that.



What still surprises me tho is the dogmatic way some seed supporters get riled at any criticism of the beloved cult, even in the face of the harm it caused so many people, and even when those people acknowledge that the others had a positive experience.



Can't we discuss the seed as an event in our lives without taking it personally?  Is that possible?



"

I agree Greg and i was trying to say that in my own roundabout way.:wink: I was fortunate in one way to have actually personally experienced at least some of the changes from what was a positive force  to something darker and definitively different. I can see the facts of my experience as being non-exclusive of the experience of others but when we exclude the possibiity that the sum of our  own experiences at the Seed may not equal the whole of its parts we seem to slip into a form of discord that argues to no purpose. If any of us fail to balance the truth in a way that requires us to stand back from the limit or our own contact with the program then we gain nothing of value. Doggedly clinging to a narrow percection on either side is equally pointless. I have never found stretching my own viewpoint to be of damage to its origins.

21
The Seed Discussion Forum / Good Friends/Reunions Only
« on: December 08, 2005, 07:33:00 PM »
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On 2005-12-08 15:51:00, cleveland wrote:

"



But I also see that there are posters here who have a largely positive memory of the Seed, and I find it hard to think that the original intent of the seed was evil. I think that anything as powerful and coercive as the seed was can lead, and maybe will always lead, to abuses. But I can't argue with someone's positive feelings - you can't argue feelings. I hope that we will have respect for feelings as well as for facts - in the end, truth will be revealed and that's what healing is all about as far as I am concerned.


Walter[ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2005-12-08 15:54 ]"

I was there in the beginning and have stated numerous times that it didn't start out as coercive or abusive in any way. Ginger has even been willing to acknowledge the possibility. It just wasn't the way so many of you who came later remember it in the beginning. I got to go back and see for myself how it had changed. The problem Ginger when you want to talk about the facts is you have to realize that in regard to The Seed there was a fluidity within the facts that was inexorably affected by time and space. For all intense and purpose we are not even talking about the same place even if it still had the same name.
There really shouldn't be any disagreement. I saw what it was and what it had started to become. Sorry guy's but both sides are right if taken in the correct context of time. Those are the defensible facts.

22
The Seed Discussion Forum / Teenage Wasteland
« on: December 05, 2005, 07:27:00 PM »
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On 2005-12-05 08:04:00, cleveland wrote:





Landy, do you know of John Gorka? He writes fantastic lyrics...my wife and I saw him at a folk festival in Hocking Hills, OH - just him and a guitar, in an old log cabin with about 20 people. One of the best music experiences of my life.

"

Love John Gorka he is definitely on my list too. Used to listen to Rundgren alot as well. I was always impressed that I heard he had done everything  himself on the"Something/Anything" albums and then mixed it. Pretty talented.

23
The Seed Discussion Forum / More Trivia
« on: December 03, 2005, 11:45:00 PM »
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On 2005-12-03 13:46:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
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Yes and I saw some of the changes so I do understand some of the strong feelings people have. Just out of curiosity does anybody here know if Teen Challenge is based on the same model that these other programs were?  "




I called teen challenge several years ago and was told they have different locations that use different techniques, with some of the locations lock-down theraputic community based.



Ie:  yes they use similar techniques in at least some of the treatment centers.



 
"

thanks for the information. God help her.

24
Quote
On 2005-12-03 20:32:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Were you at the Andrews Ave Seed in 1971?"

Sorry anon who are you asking? If me then I think I was still around in 71'. I was there for a while after the move from the little house on 3rd.

25
The Seed Discussion Forum / Teenage Wasteland
« on: December 03, 2005, 11:35:00 PM »
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On 2005-12-03 18:10:00, marcwordsmith wrote:

"One of the ways I comforted myself during and after the Seed was with music. I projected very personal meanings and messages into the rock music of the day. Like the song "From the Beginning" by Emerson, Lake, and Palmer, with its refrain:



You see it's all clear

You were meant to be here

From the beginning



I took that to mean that, for reasons I could not fathom, even the Seed was somehow part of the master plan for my life. I needed to believe it made some sort of sense, fit into some larger scheme.



The album Who's Next was a really big deal for me; I escaped so much into that record. It's hard to say exactly what made it feel so relevant to me. Maybe just the whole tone of it, the spiritual yearning, the hurt.



And the "teenage wasteland" refrain made really feel not alone. When Townshend sang, "Don't cry, don't raise your eye, it's only teenage wasteland," I felt like he was telling me to forget it--teenagehood would be, for me, a scarred battlefield that I could leave behind some day for better places. (And maybe many troubled teenagers, in all kinds of situations, heard it that way, and maybe that's part of why that phrase resonated for so very many kids.)



Anybody else take comfort in music or song lyrics during the Seed era in their lives?"

Marc, I don't think I got to thank you for your fearless chronicle of your experience at The Seed. But if I did Thanks again. I have always found solace in music but much more now than then. I occasionally quote something that I find meaningful from my library in here. Funny I loved rock all my teenage years and of course still do to some extent but I started branching out as i got a little older. After I went back to my dads after destroying my first marriage due to my alcoholism I found comfort in what would now be considered classic country. The songs were one after the other a serial compilation that spoke to the wreckage that I had created for myself. I would go park my car at the lake near my parents home and write sad poems, drink beer,listen to country music and cry. Later in better times I found the mood that jazz created  after getting sober was useful in setting the tone for my new venture back into the dating world. But  I steered toward artists from Michael Franks to Winton Marsalis to Rickie Lee Jones and though I typically get the most from lyrics I found the power of brass to move me emotionally as well. From there I ventured into the Nouveau Flamenco of Otmar Liebert which led me to search the roots of classical guitar and its heavier influences such as Andres Segovia. His renditions on guitar of Bach developed in me the interest to explore on a limited basis some classical music. Now I listen to people who by and large are are in the folk scene and obscure for the most part to the general public but who are highly respected by the more popular country musicians who often cover there songs. I find an amazing power and depth to the simple combination of an acoustic guitar and lyrics of life and love and stories of experience. So many may not have heard of people like John Prine, Doc watson, Townes Van Zandt, Lucy Kaplanski, David Wilcox, Ellis Paul, Greg Brown, Eva Cassidy, Lucinda Williams but their music forms the roots of so many others that are more popular but don't have any of the raw and passionate truth that resonates with these other artists. Many know Townes Van Zandt through the cover The Highwaymen did of the song "Pancho and Lefty". John Prines contributions are legendary in the music world but to understand the power of his music listen to his duet with Bonnie Rait singing "Angel from Montgomery" about an old couple sung from the womens's perspective. The lines in that song, "if dreams were lighting and thunder were desire this old house would of burnt down a long time ago", "Just give me one thing that I can hold onto, to believe in this living is just a hard way to go" " How the hell can a person go to work in the morning come home in the evening and have nothing to say", speak of such a deeply moving picture of despair. From Prine's most well known song "Sam Stone", about the life of a vietnam veteran after he returned home, the line "there's a hole in daddy's arm where all the money goes" is  so simplistic yet poignant. Townes Van Zandt who's own path of abuse led to his death a few years ago had the ability to weave marvellous tapestries of words that are some of the most amazingly complex poetry I have ever heard anywhere. Yet there is a raw edge to his music that to me anyway is moving. So I tend to seek out the little known artists who have a story to tell.

26
The Seed Discussion Forum / Physical Contact
« on: December 03, 2005, 02:26:00 PM »
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On 2005-12-03 09:23:00, GregFL wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-12-03 09:09:00, landyh wrote:


"
Quote


On 2005-06-06 14:18:00, cleveland wrote:



"OK, MGG dared me to post on this topic...so I will.







Physical contact/sexuality...







Guys and girls strictly segragated...Art made sly sexual jokes (Evie being 'healthy' - large breasted. Seed kids being celibates - whoops, celebrants! etc.) Anyway, we were all sexually pent up. I think guys to some extent and probably girls even more so got some of their sexual energy released thru same sex contact. Not sex, but touching and cuddling if you were a girl, and rough-housing if you were a guy. I wasn't very sophisticated at 19 but I knew some people were gay, even though I hadn't had a lot of knowing contact (any gay kid at my high school would take pains to hide it, except for one or two flamboyant kids who I didn't know at all well, and kind of embarrased me) but I knew there were gay kids at the Seed but it appeared that they were trying to be 'straight' sexually too. It must have been weird. But the straight kids were banned from all contact with the opp. sex except for: A. high status kids, who could date and marry with Art's permission and B. football. Ooh, football! The girls wore skimpy little bikinis which they made themselves. It was torture to see them, and play on the line against them. High status seed kids had other opportunities to hang out with the opp. sex, esp. if you were on staff or jr. staff. For the rest of us: saying 'hi' to the girl who served the warm coollaid and frozen PBJ sandwiches; once in a great while helping some girl carry something in or out of her car or maybe apt.







Masterbation - not supposed to do it, really. But...whoopsie.







And you were supposed to confess 'everything.' I found this to be a horror for me. Especially because you weren't supposed to have your head in the gutter...and because I did...







So yeah, girls and guys did some same sex touching/cuddling/hugging/kissing even, I remember...but no contact with the opp. sex. Lots of guilt, shame, confusion...







Although I have to say that being able to hug another guy w/o shame was a definite plus for me - maybe helped me be less homophobic.







There you go, MGG. "




Just to balance things out a bit when I was on 3rd ave at 9 there was no prohibition against hugging the between girls/guys and i don't remember any prohibition on boy / girl relationships once you were an old comer. To be honest I don't exactly remember what the rules were by the time I went to St Rd 84 but I don't remember it being quite as restrictive as what you guys are posting. At nine there was often kisses fo me from the girls. maybe  I was excluded because they thought I was too young to worry about. Little did they know. I think those kisses were what made my experience the first time positive as much as anything else. Just being a cute kid made for alot of attention that i needed. Wish it was still that easy.:wink:"




In st pete, you couldn't express ANY interest in the opposite sex or you were in for some serious punishment. Even LOOKING at the other side of the isle could get you lambasted and come down on.



Lamby, could it be that when you were 9 you were treated with special care, and that is one reason all those memories are so positive?



Hell, I can't hardly remember anything that happened to me when I was 9, at least not in any way other than a general memory.



"

I have no doubt that my age was a factor in that first experience. Remember not only was I young but I was the only person anywhere close to my age . So even my personal experience with Art in which he was caring even gentle with me were surely at least in part due to my age.

27
The Seed Discussion Forum / New Article
« on: December 03, 2005, 02:22:00 PM »
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On 2005-12-03 09:09:00, GregFL wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-12-02 20:50:00, landyh wrote:


 I only bring this up because no matter how accurate my depiction of some of the positive aspects of my first time around I am beginning to find here something of myself that was lost.






Then this site is dedicated to you Landy and all like you (us) who want/need to put this experience into proper focus.  



Just where does it belong in the history of our lives?  Just what really happened...negative, positive or neutral?  Were we really "saved" or were we conditioned to believe an urban myth, that we were dying? Did we need addiction treatment? Was this treatment secondary to other techniques used?  What were those techniques? Why were we seperated from TV and the news? Our families?   Were we "loved" or were we part of a group dynamic that used "love" as a binding force and a weapon of exclusion?  Was this "love" different than real world capital L love? Just where did these techniques come from, and where have they gone?  And on and on...the subject matter is captivating  and also sometimes a bit disturbing.



It is a fascinating journey thru self-realization that you are now a part of.  We are all glad you are here as well.



"

Thanks Greg!

28
The Seed Discussion Forum / Physical Contact
« on: December 03, 2005, 12:09:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-06-06 14:18:00, cleveland wrote:

"OK, MGG dared me to post on this topic...so I will.



Physical contact/sexuality...



Guys and girls strictly segragated...Art made sly sexual jokes (Evie being 'healthy' - large breasted. Seed kids being celibates - whoops, celebrants! etc.) Anyway, we were all sexually pent up. I think guys to some extent and probably girls even more so got some of their sexual energy released thru same sex contact. Not sex, but touching and cuddling if you were a girl, and rough-housing if you were a guy. I wasn't very sophisticated at 19 but I knew some people were gay, even though I hadn't had a lot of knowing contact (any gay kid at my high school would take pains to hide it, except for one or two flamboyant kids who I didn't know at all well, and kind of embarrased me) but I knew there were gay kids at the Seed but it appeared that they were trying to be 'straight' sexually too. It must have been weird. But the straight kids were banned from all contact with the opp. sex except for: A. high status kids, who could date and marry with Art's permission and B. football. Ooh, football! The girls wore skimpy little bikinis which they made themselves. It was torture to see them, and play on the line against them. High status seed kids had other opportunities to hang out with the opp. sex, esp. if you were on staff or jr. staff. For the rest of us: saying 'hi' to the girl who served the warm coollaid and frozen PBJ sandwiches; once in a great while helping some girl carry something in or out of her car or maybe apt.



Masterbation - not supposed to do it, really. But...whoopsie.



And you were supposed to confess 'everything.' I found this to be a horror for me. Especially because you weren't supposed to have your head in the gutter...and because I did...



So yeah, girls and guys did some same sex touching/cuddling/hugging/kissing even, I remember...but no contact with the opp. sex. Lots of guilt, shame, confusion...



Although I have to say that being able to hug another guy w/o shame was a definite plus for me - maybe helped me be less homophobic.



There you go, MGG. "

Just to balance things out a bit when I was on 3rd ave at 9 there was no prohibition against hugging the between girls/guys and i don't remember any prohibition on boy / girl relationships once you were an old comer. To be honest I don't exactly remember what the rules were by the time I went to St Rd 84 but I don't remember it being quite as restrictive as what you guys are posting. At nine there was often kisses fo me from the girls. maybe  I was excluded because they thought I was too young to worry about. Little did they know. I think those kisses were what made my experience the first time positive as much as anything else. Just being a cute kid made for alot of attention that i needed. Wish it was still that easy.:wink:

29
The Seed Discussion Forum / New Article
« on: December 02, 2005, 11:50:00 PM »
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On 2005-12-02 17:57:00, marcwordsmith wrote:

"Thank you Walter, Ja Long, Marshall, Greg, Stripe, Ginger, and anyone else who took the time to read my  account. I had written about the Seed a few times in my twenties. The online piece is a synthesis of those writings, with some editing and a little extra commentary to bring it up to date.



It means a lot to me that people on this web site have read it. I was going to announce it in this forum, but for some reason I hesitated. I'm glad though that people found it.



Ja Long, I'm sorry it brought back painful memories. I have read about some of the horrors you suffered in particular, and I want to say I'm deeply sorry for what you endured, and I marvel at your spirit. Marshall, I know what you mean by "sick, unsettled feeling." Well put."

By now most of you here know and maybe even have some understanding of my conflicted views on The Seed. Reading some of the posts here and your story Marc has brought back some "sick and unsettled" feelings for me as well. Deeply buried ones that conflict on every level with my memories of the first time I was there. I only bring this up because no matter how accurate my depiction of some of the positive aspects of my first time around I am beginning to find here something of myself that was lost. Without this forum to which I don't think I found by accident those issues would have remained buried. While the digging itself is painful to question things as I thought they were I have some hope in that darkness cannot exist in light.

"Nothing real can be threatened.
Nothing unreal exists.
Herein lie's the peace of God"
From the introduction to:
A Course In Miracles

30
The Seed Discussion Forum / Dear John
« on: December 02, 2005, 11:30:00 PM »
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On 2005-12-02 13:50:00, cleveland wrote:

"In response to the initial post by "someone:"



I am sure I knew you, at SR 84. Funny to think that, since you are posting anonymously - as to me, I am 'Wally' of course...



I agree with 98% of what you said in your post. But the 2% that I don't agree with is like the difference between night and day.



I was a 'volunteer' too, but not like any kind of volunteer I had ever been before or since. I 'volunteered' at the Seed by giving up every other important relationship in my life up to then, by pledging total allegience to the group, and by denying my basic individuality. The Seed expected, and got, total adherence to its rules, customs, and beliefs, and any dissent that I had within me was kept deep inside. The only other relationship in which I yield so much of myself would be my wife, but from time to time I even disagree with her :wink:



Also, the reason why I read this site and think about it a lot is not because I live in the past, but because A. it was 7 years of my life B. it was like nothing else I have experienced C. I want to understand what it means to me and to our culture about addiction, power, friendship, etc. What could be more important?



So yes, I will read here and post here, struggling to find out what I experienced, and trying to form a response to what the Seed. addiction, family and friendship are all about.



What I DON'T understand is all those who went thru the Seed experience and either can't or won't think critically about it. Telling people to 'get over it' is a huge cop out - what do you care if people want to think/talk about this? It is still relevent.



Finally, there are hundreds of Seed copy-cat programs all over the world. The Seed may have closed but it has a legacy, for better or worse. Do you have children? Would you put them in Kids Helping Kids or any number of programs like that?



Finally - love ya...I still feel a real connection to the Seed and people I met there, even though most of them will never talk to me! I am happily, a fuck-up and drop out of the program!"

No kidding! Wasn't there a girl named Wally or maybe it was a nickname at one time. Long dark hair or am I just having a flashback.

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