Fornits

Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: GregFL on January 12, 2006, 12:22:00 PM

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: GregFL on January 12, 2006, 12:22:00 PM

here is an article that ran in the St Petersburg Independent on 6/3/1974, shortly after I graduated. Notble is that this was, for a while, the 'pro-seed' newspaper in town.  

[Bold and emphasis in original article]

GIRL FORCED TO THE SEED

by Paul Zach, staff writer.

A 16 year old  girl was dragged screaming and kicking from a St. Petersburg school recently and taken to The Seed, a drug rehabilitation center here.

The girl was forced into a car by two "volunteer" parents from The Seed, accompanied by the girl's mother, and taken to the drug progam's warehouse near Tyrone Square Mall during classes.

The girl's mother told the Evening Independent she had given consent for her daughter to be taken to The Seed, but later changed her mind about keeping here there after witnessing the way her daughter had been treated and how she reacted.

The principal of St. Petersburg Catholic High School where the incident occured, Mrs. Mary Wells, said she has taken action protesting the incident, but would not reveal what it was.

Mrs. Wells confirmed "force" was used, but said she did not know if reports that the girl had been beaten in the schoolyard were true.

She said the action had been "investigated and documented" and noted diaproved (sic)  of any kind of forceable conduct on moral grounds.

the girl involved told an Evening Independent reporter that she was beaten by the man after being pushed into the car.  She displayed black-and-blue marks on her legs which she said resulted from the incident.

The girl's mother said the man was only trying to keep the girl from escaping. "otherwise she would have run away", she said.  The mother would not reveal the names of the two seed parents.

The mother said the two parents had convinced her to put her daughter in the Seed telling her , If you don't, she will die".

"They told me she was taking all kinds of drugs, Marijuana, PCP, THC, cocaine, mescaline, LSD, everything but heroin.", she said.

The mother,  a widow, said she agreed to go with the two Seed parents to take her daughter from school, because she was afraid her daughter would "die" if she didn't.

The girl was called from class by her mother under the premise she had to go to the doctor.  When the girl saw the Seed parents, she said she knew something was up and tried to run.

the resulting scuffle in which the girl screamed and kicked as she was dragged to the car was witnessed by teacher and students in the schoolyard.

A spokesman at the St. Petersburg branch of the Seed who gave her name only as "Libby" said today she could not comment on the incident. The director of the program, Art Barker, was unavailable for comment this morning.

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: SurRobinHood on January 12, 2006, 01:04:00 PM

Most of the few faces I remember were the people brought kicking and screaming in the doors. Them and the angry screaming faces of the staff. Ahh, the seed memories......

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: FueLaw on January 12, 2006, 03:14:00 PM

Where is "Junky John" Underwood and his followers now? Nobody ever got physically abused? Those stories really get me pissed.

There were literally hundreds and hundred of kids forced into the Seed under the pretext that they would die or end up in prison. The parents were consistently lied to about their kids level of involvement with drugs. This is what created the fear.  The frauds and scams pulled by the staff were,and always will be,a dsigrace.

Now lets hear from some of the Seed apologist as to why this was an appropriate thing to do.

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: Stripe on January 12, 2006, 04:31:00 PM

Quote

On 2006-01-12 09:22:00, GregFL wrote:

"here is an article that ran in the St
GIRL FORCED TO THE SEED



by Paul Zach, staff writer.



A 16 year old  girl was dragged screaming and kicking from a St. Petersburg school recently and taken to The Seed, a drug rehabilitation center here.



The girl was forced into a car by two "volunteer" parents from The Seed, accompanied by the girl's mother, and taken to the drug progam's warehouse near Tyrone Square Mall during classes....

A spokesman at the St. Petersburg branch of the Seed who gave her name only as "Libby" said today she could not comment on the incident. The director of the program, Art Barker, was unavailable for comment this morning.
"

Well Fuelaw, my guess is that Libby, Art, John Underwood and all the other Seed apologists are STILL unavailable for comment. I would be very surprised to see any real, substantive comment about this article on this thread or on the SDF in general.

Hey, even if we were to have some kind of Nuromberg-esq (sp?) "trial" for these folks, you can bet that responses would be something along the lines of "I was just following procedure."  Which of course, would be followed by an  official statement of:
 
(1) a flat denial that any action such as was  witnessed by the school attendees ever occurred; or

(2) if it did occur, it was not condoned; or

(3) it was done for her own good.

It's fun to think about these folks being called to answer for their actions, but I seriously doubt we will see that happen in our lives.  

It doesn't mean we can't have the pipe dream, though.  MMMMM, pipedreams.... :smokin:

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: GregFL on January 12, 2006, 06:40:00 PM

ahh, but art eventually was available for comment....


anyone curious?

 :grin:

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: Antigen on January 12, 2006, 07:48:00 PM

Yup!

To seek out the best through the whole Union, we must resort to the information which from the best of men, acting disinterestedly and with the purest motives, is sometimes incorrect.
Thomas Jefferson Letter to Elias Shipman and others of New Haven, July 12, 1801.

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: landyh on January 12, 2006, 10:44:00 PM

Come on Greg. This isn't fair

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: Helena Handbasket on January 12, 2006, 11:48:00 PM

Quote

On 2006-01-12 15:40:00, GregFL wrote:

"ahh, but art eventually was available for comment....





anyone curious?



 :grin: "

Yeah Greg... I came all the over here to hear this!

BTW - I remember the Evening Independent.. cost a DIME!  I don't remember much of the content though.

Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our motto.
--Thomas Jefferson

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: Stripe on January 13, 2006, 12:39:00 AM

Greg,

Please, do tell.  What was the comment????

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: GregFL on January 13, 2006, 10:09:00 AM

Okay people, by popular demand...here it is.



Barker:  The Seed is Opposed to Force
by Paul Zach, staff writer
St. Petersburg Evening Independent. 6/4/1974

Reacting to a report yesterday of a screaming girl who was "dragged" from a high school to The Seed screaming and kicking, the director of the drug rehabiliation program said he deplores such tactics.

Director Art Barker told the Evening Independent, "The Seed has never done this, does not advocate this and is against this".

Art Barker was commenting on a recent incident at St. Petersburg Catholic High School in which a 16 year-old girl was called from class by her mother, then physically forced into a car by two parents of Seedlings.

News of the incident was sparked by spiralling rumors that a girl had been brutally beaten, put in chains and ropes and driven off the The Seed.

Both the girl and her mother denied the rumors that chains and ropes had been used.

What actually occured, according to the mother, was that she had given permission for the volunteers to take her daughter to The Seed because she was told her daughter was on drugs and would "die" if she didn't.

Following the incident at the school in which the girl was bruised on her legs when she said she was "beaten and shoved" into the car by the volunteer parents, her mother decided against signing papers that would have committed her daughter to the Seed.

"I Didn't want my dauther there for real I just wanted to teach her a lesson", she said.  The mother said she has decided to send her to a Catholic Diocese counselor.

Barker took issue with the mother's claim that she had decided against putting her daughter in The Seed.  Barker said his St. Petersburg chapter of the program "refused" to admit the girl.

Local members of The Seed denied knowledge of the incident, but Barker was contacted at his office in Fort Lauderdale.

Barker said the volunteer Seed parents involved were reprimanded.  "they were told that is not the way we do it," he said.

The principal of St. Petersburg Catholic High said the school has taken action protesting the incident.  But Principal Mary Wells would not say what the action is, noting she believed it would be more effective if it was not publicized.

"We do not approve of the use of force and force was used,"  Mrs. Wells said.

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: GregFL on January 13, 2006, 10:27:00 AM

Honesty?

More like  damage control....

This story is so indicative of the insanity of the times.

First, the fear of the non-seedlings comes ripping thru the pages of the story.  People witness a girl called out  of class and dragged to the seed under force by a goon squad of seed parents.  Rumors fly and it is built into "ropes and chains".  Fear ruled the day if you were a teenager in St Pete.

Second, the "honesty" of staff was just so overwhelming. :wink:  

They denied any knowledge it even happened, but as soon as they do get in contact with Art, he is ready with a prepared statement, and then he has the sack to say they refused to admit this girl.  unreal.  

Who knew of any kid that had ex-seed friends tell their parents they did everything with the kid but heroin, and then the seed say they didn't need to be there?  Did this even happen one time in 73/74, when the seed was taking kids for 'attitude' and shoplifting?

Does this comport with reality as we knew it then?

This article demonstrates many things. One, that violence, whether staff wants to admit it was part of the program or not, happened.  Things often got "out of hand" back then.  Two, that our collective fear of violence was justified because it happened, and it happened fairly often in this almost out of control atmosphere.

Now staffers, here is a question for you. How the hell do you think this made us captives feel, to see kids dragged from cars into the seed, bruised, kicking and screaming?  Or when we were poked hard in the back for the sin of letting our backs hit the chair? Or when parents were called in to smack around the kids who were misbehaving, and then we were threatened with the same?  Or when kids were thrown down hard to the concrete when they tried to escape? Or when non compliant kids were sent home with the biggest most muscular kids, and then the group would laugh when it was announced? Or when we were padlocked behind rooms? Or when we were made to beg to defecate and then watched while doing so?

Do you think we believed violence wasn't part of the program, or can you see that perhaps we lived under a constant violence charged atmosphere with the thought that we could be next  buzzing in the back of our heads?  When a kid ran for the door and was thrown down hard and piled on, you may have thought this was isolated.  To us it was everytime someone tried to escape.  How do you think that made us feel?

Captive? Helpless? Powerless? Weak?

or
 
loved and respected? Valued?


Be honest now. Someone who was in a position of authority think this thru and give us a response.  It is an important point that we have been tip-toeing around for five years now.  Lets talk about it!





BTW, there is a follow up to this story coming soon.

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: GregFL on January 13, 2006, 10:35:00 AM

BTW, Stripe...

You nailed it!

#2 was the winning guess.

 :grin:

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: WWFSMD on January 13, 2006, 10:56:00 AM

This is so strange to be reading this and see some of the peripheral connections to the Seed prior to my being put in Straight.  I was 9 in 1974 and went to a private school in St. Pete.  I had friends that went to St. Pete Catholic and I remember hearing about this.  About a year or two later a kid in my neighborhood disappeared.  Eventually we heard rumors about him being in the Seed.  I remember my parents talking about it and my dad's attitude to be one of 'well, he needed a good, swift kick in the ass'.  My dad worked for the SP Times, the owner of the Evening Independent (Helena, I remember that paper well too, free editions on days with no sunshine  :smile: ) so he had heard all about Art and the Seed from day one.  Looking back I guess its not so difficult to see how I ended up in Straight.

Quote

Fear ruled the day if you were a teenager in St Pete.

Damn Greg, you aint' kidding there.  First we were scared shitless of the Seed.  Then Straight.  When the neighbor kid that I knew got back from the Seed it was really odd in the neighborhood.  Parents were freaked, kids were freaked.  He didn't finish, don't know the cirumstances surrounding his exit but he was absolutely a changed person.  Angry, depressed, paranoid etc.  Poor guy was just a minor pothead before going in.  

About a year or two before I went in Straight one of the kids I knew that disappeared in there was actually broken out by her boyfriend and a few of his friends.  They waited in the parking lot and ambushed the oldcomer, grabbed Debbie and shoved her in the car that had pulled up from its hiding place around the corner and whisked her away.  The things she told us after getting out gave us chills and a permanent fear of anything connected with that place.  We ALL knew about Seed/Straight.  We ALL either knew someone directly or knew of kids that were sent away.  How many times I sat in those fucking blue chairs and thought about Mike and Carl coming to break Debbie out and dreamed someone would rescue me.  These people deserve a special place in hell.

I tried for years to live according to everyone else's morality.
I tried to live like everyone else, to be like everyone else.
I said the right things even when I felt and thought quite differently.
And the result is a catastrophe.

---Albert Camus

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: GregFL on January 13, 2006, 12:32:00 PM

hmm...175 views and only a smattering of comments.

Interesting.

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: GregFL on January 13, 2006, 12:44:00 PM

Okay, here is the last of it.  9 days later, the St. Petersburg times followed up with the family and posted this article.

Daughter now okay after Seed incident
By Margaret Leaonard, St. Pertersburg Times Staff writer.

A Pinellas County mother who relented at the last minute and took her 16 year old daughter home from the Seed says she is not sure now that stories about her daughter's drug use were true.

In any case, the mother said Tuesday, "she's okay now."

convinced that her daughter was using drugs and "might die", the mother went with the parents of a Seedling to St. Petersburg Catholic High School to get her daughter and take her to The Seed for treatment.

The Three adults forced the girl into the car and drove her, crying and trying to escape, all the way to the Seed's warehouse building in the Tyrone Industrial Center.

"I felt sorry for her...I was upset," the mother recalled Tuesday.  "But I wanted her scared.  People were telling me stories about her.  They were telling me so much they scared me...I want her to be a respectable, happy young lady.  Drugs are not good for anybody."

In the Seed intake office, sitting at a table with her daughter and a Seed staffer, the mother recalls that she thought "I don't want this for my daughter."

"I said, 'please leave me alone and let me think,'" she related Tuesday.  "he left and came back and I  said, 'I want to talk it over with a priest.'  They said 'If you change your mind the door's open anytime.'  Then I left."

The Evening Indedendent reported that Seed director Art Barker said the Seed "refused" to admit the girl.

"they didn't refuse my daughter," the mother said.
"If they lie on this they'll lie on the other thing..I never caught my daughter (using drugs). She works. She goes to school."

Following The advice of her priest, the mother arranged counseling for her daughter.  She thinks the girl is doing well now and no longer considers putting her in The Seed.

"I don't want her in there,"  She said Tuesday.

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: GregFL on January 13, 2006, 12:49:00 PM

In the Seed intake office, sitting at a table with her daughter and a Seed staffer, the mother recalls that she thought "I don't want this for my daughter."

and

"If they lie on this they'll lie on the other thing..





While initially duped and caught up in the whole "they're gonna die without the seed" hype, this mom turned out to be one smart cookie.

We should of all been so lucky. Now, If we could just find out who this girl was, and what happened to her.

I mean, did she die, go insane or is she in jail now?

I doubt it.

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: Antigen on January 13, 2006, 06:02:00 PM

Sorry, don't mean to hijack your thread. This is all good reading. But I do want to interject something here.

Quote

From: The Smoking Gun

In additon to these rap sheet creations, Frey also invented a role for himself in a deadly train accident that cost the lives of two female high school students. In what may be his book's most crass flight from reality, Frey remarkably appropriates and manipulates details of the incident so he can falsely portray himself as the tragedy's third victim. It's a cynical and offensive ploy that has left one of the victims' parents bewildered. "As far as I know, he had nothing to do with the accident," said the mother of one of the dead girls. "I figured he was taking license...he's a writer, you know, they don't tell everything that's factual and true."

 Frey appears to have fictionalized his past to propel and sweeten the book's already melodramatic narrative and help convince readers of his malevolence. "I was a bad guy," Frey told Winfrey. "If I was gonna write a book that was true, and I was gonna write a book that was honest, then I was gonna have to write about myself in very, very negative ways." That is repeatedly apparent in his memoir, which announces, "I am an Alcoholic and I am a drug Addict and I am a Criminal." It is an incantation he repeats eight times in the book, always making sure to capitalize the 'c' in Criminal.

Where do ya'll suppose he learned that trick?

If TCs were interested in treating substance abuse, half the time they'd tell mom "Sorry ma'am, we can't help him. He's not an addict, he's just an asshole.
--GregFL

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: Antigen on January 13, 2006, 06:16:00 PM

Quote

On 2006-01-13 07:27:00, GregFL wrote:

Rumors fly and it is built into "ropes and chains". Fear ruled the day if you were a teenager in St Pete.

Yup, it was very much the same in Ft. Lauderdale there for awhile. I don't remember believing very strongly in the stuff about ropes and chains. But I damned sure was walking on egg-shells for a good many of my most formative years.

Now THAT is the Seed I was in. And it did help prepare me for Straight in very real and significant ways. It still sucked and it still was a monumental mindfuck. However, it wasn't anywhere near as disorienting to me as it was for most kids. I was well familiar with the culture and language and well able to navigate in it.

So thanks, Ter, John, Lybbi and all the rest of you mindfuckers for my basic training. It served me very well in real combat.

I don't believe in Jesus.
--John Lennon, British songwriter and member of "The Beatles"

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: Antigen on January 13, 2006, 06:38:00 PM

Man, listen to this interview! Hear anything sorta like a home town accent? Like, inapropriate interrogative inflection?

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/writers/w ... kid=559271 (http://www.barnesandnoble.com/writers/writer.asp?cid=764583&cds2Pid=2788&linkid=559271)

Those who control the past, control the future; and those who control the present, control the past.

--George Orwell

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: Antigen on January 13, 2006, 06:57:00 PM

Quote

While the book is brimming with improbable characters--like the colorful mafioso Leonard and the tragic crack whore Lilly, with whom Frey takes up in Hazelden--and equally implausible scenes, we chose to focus on the crime and justice aspect of "A Million Little Pieces." Which wasn't much of a decision since almost every character in Frey's book that could address the remaining topics has either committed suicide, been murdered, died of AIDS, been sentenced to life in prison, gone missing, landed in an institution for the criminally insane, or fell off a fishing boat never to be seen again.

While we do not doubt Frey spent time in rehab, there really isn't anyone left (besides the author himself) to vouch for many of the book's outlandish stories.
ibid

As your attorney, it is my duty to inform you that it is not important that you understand what I'm doing or why you're paying me so much money.  What's important is that you continue to do so.
--Hunter S. Thompson's Samoan Attorney

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: JaLong on January 14, 2006, 10:46:00 AM

Honesty Greg?? Well let me tell you, after reading these articles memories that I assume have been buried have sufaced. I thought I had taken care of EVERYTHING in me concerning the seed.. Guess not.
Anyhow, as I was reading I remembered when my parents tricked me into going to the store with them, and at the last minute my mom wanted to go, I was stuck between them in the front seat of the car. Out of my dad's pockect came a "phoney" court order. I freaked and tried shoving my mom out of the car door on park street. To no avail, I ended up in the seeds parking lot. I now remember I refused to get out of the car. I was kicking and screaming "NO"!! I was pulled out of the car by three big guys,(I am female)and they tried getting me into the building. I talked them into letting walk in, yet they still hung on to my pants and hands. Once inside, Dear Mrs Peterson "welcomed" me with threats of calling the police and having me arrested for selling drugs. She said, "every police dept. knows you sell drugs, from St.Pete Bch, T.I., Maderia, to Seminole." That might have been true, yet I didn't want to go to jail. It took me, after tearing up or chewing up the intake paper, I finally resigned myself to signing it. Then I was taken to the bathroom and searched. I have had that shoved deep down inside of me for 33 yrs now.
Man, first I am gang raped at 14 yrs old, put in the seed at 17 in July 73, then I see one of my rapist on staff.....  Man does that suck or what?? Greg,a big part of me wants to say thank you for putting these articles up, yet while reading them  my heart was beating awfully fast from the stuffed memories of my first day of the seed. I do not and have never capitalized the name the "seed", because the name and everything it stood for doesn't deserve any honor from me. I just hope I have no more surpressed memories. That's why I keep getting drawn here to read the latest. Thank you Greg. I can now release some more garbage from my teenage yrs.
God bless, Julie

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: GregFL on January 14, 2006, 12:11:00 PM

You know Julie, I get what you are saying. Part of me sometimes thinks the easy way out is not to confront this stuff.

But dammit, it did happen, now didn't it?

All of the lovey dovey dead-insane, instant-family, and other self masturbation talk changes not one iota of what the seed really was, a forced indoctrination camp designed to culturally change us children into the image of what our parents thought we should be.

Forcing someone to change their personality involves some extreme ugliness, and not facing that ugliness in my opinion, keeps us from being whole people.

Julie, on the article I just posted  "today the seed, tomorrow the world", my heart was pounding as well.  Every stinking fucking thing said in that article is true, and here is the big one...our parents knew it but choose to support the Seed anyway.  This stuff was all over the press and on everyone's lips.  Yet, they so wanted us to change into that smiling country-loving compliant seedling, just like the kid down the street.

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: Stripe on January 14, 2006, 03:25:00 PM

Julie,

It is tough to reconcile what we have choosen to remember with actual accounts. I understand your pain and when I read the newest article about the boy named Pat, it brought me to tears.  

I guess the good thing that comes out of actually facing the pain and truth of the Seed is that once you face it, it's over and it's done.  There is no more stuff slightly under the surface that you have to keep in check so that your world doesn't crack up.  Peace be with you, Julie.

Kevin Jean

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: JaLong on January 14, 2006, 07:46:00 PM

Greg, that article about "Pat" is so true. The seed told my parents that I would never be able to go home again if they didn't bring my middle sister in. She tried weed one frickin time, and in she came. After "graduating", she has refused to talk about the seed still after all these years. It messed her up really badly. Ya know Greg that I have been pretty much pro-seed here, yet also sharing what I had been through.
Now my dear friend, "I can see clearly now" that Art Barker was an egotistic, self-indulging, insane man. The seed did suck, just like all of the bumper stickers that were plastered all over our garage door one morning when we woke up. The judges were fooled. The State Attorney was fooled. The government was fooled, and so were our parents.
I know I was a very messed up teenager, and yes I did do many drugs. My parents lost contol of me, as I lost control of myself. I will end this by saying the only thing good about the seed is I am still alive. I was made to get off of the streets. A horrible way to do it, but as my parents have told me, they didn't know what else to do. They were scared for me, and they themselves were very insecure people. They fell for the bull that their friends, who were my friends parents already in the seed said. You will not be hearing me talk positive about the seed again. It was an institution that brain washed children. I know I was knocked down to a nothing,(didn't think I could feel any worse about myself), and they tried to build me up to be like everyone else. Thanks again for all that you do.
God Bless You,
Julie

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: JaLong on January 14, 2006, 07:55:00 PM

Thanks Kevin,
I understand what you are saying. While remembering what I did, at first I felt sad, then anger, then relief. Relief because I confronted a memory that really hurt me at the time when I was 17. Now 33 yrs later, I can remember something, think about it, and just let it go. As I said to Greg, the seed saved my life 'ONLY" because I was off of the streets. The rest of the experience was pretty much a nightmare. Yes, Susie Connors was there for me, yet now I wonder with what kind of sincerity?? It doesn't really matter any more, because it is all over with. That part of my life is history, and I sure would love to write a book about my life. I'd probably name it," From hell to Heaven." LOL. I do have peace in my life Kevin, and I appreciate your caring and kind words. This means a lot to me. Take care Kevin.
Julie

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: Antigen on January 14, 2006, 10:05:00 PM

Quote

On 2006-01-14 16:55:00, JaLong wrote:

"Thanks Kevin,
Yes, Susie Connors was there for me, yet now I wonder with what kind of sincerity??

The type of total, unquestioning faith available only to blindly devoted zealots; sagusees and pharasees. (spell check it yourself, it's been over 20 years for more)

Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action.
George Washington

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: Antigen on January 14, 2006, 10:07:00 PM

Quote

On 2006-01-14 16:55:00, JaLong wrote:

That part of my life is history, and I sure would love to write a book about my life. I'd probably name it," From hell to Heaven." LOL. I do have peace in my life Kevin, and I appreciate your caring and kind words. This means a lot to me. Take care Kevin.
Julie

Right about now, there's a market for just such a book. I encourage you to write it. I'm namin' mine "The Postman's kid".

A dictatorship would be a heck of a lot easier, there's no question
about it.
--GW Büsh, Business Week, July 30, 2001

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: marshall on January 16, 2006, 10:31:00 PM

That was a great series of posts, Julie. I think many of the fierce Seed supporters may fear that if they begin to question or honestly examine the program itself the whole edifice may crumble. Some may even believe criticizing the program will lead to their relapsing into drug abuse.

I can understand their concern since I had similar concerns for years. It's like the first time I drank a beer with my father two years after graduating the program. I half expected and wondered if I'd be in the gutter with a needle in my arm within a short time....or dead, insane or back in jail. It was the same with talking to &  associating with 'druggies'. Surely this would lead to my destruction. The power of that conditioning was very strong and it took years to begin to see through it. Here I am 28 years later & I still rarely drink over 2 beers or a glass of wine & that only occasionally. No drugs, no insanity, etc.

Of course to some program proponents any serious criticism of the Seed equals being a drug addict, criminal or angry, self-indulgent pseudo-intellectual that embraces questionable ideology (meaning ideology that is at variance with the Seed party-line). Congrats on your courageous decision to apply honesty to the tenets and methods of the program itself.

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: marcwordsmith on January 18, 2006, 12:16:00 PM

Julie, just off the cuff, I think it's perfectly possible that Suzie truly befriended you. She was a true believer in the Seed, and she may have seen a bit of herself in you in some ways. The Seed itself was a warped program, but sometimes people genuinely did try to be kind in the context of all that party-line insanity.

Walter has written a bit about that paradox--how on the one hand, the Seed indoctrinated us into group think and did not tolerate independent thought, yet on the other hand, he really did enjoy some authentic connections with some good people in the cult and they had some great times together.  

I think it's all true -- especially with somebody like Suzie C. To me she epitomized the sometimes contradictory nature of the Seed. Suzie C. was very nice to me too. She often told me she loved me and I believed her, and I believe her to this day. I can't dislike her because she was lovely to me. And at the same time, I saw her behave just abominably to people in the group; she was an absolute emotional barbarian. She could be so vicious in how she attacked people.

In the account I wrote about the Seed which is online and which you read, I talk about a staff member named "Gloria" a couple of times. That's Suzie. She's the one who read the girl's intercepted love letters in front of the entire group (in an atrociously spiteful and humiliating fashion), and she's also the staff person who called me in to talk on my third day, and tried to scare me with stories about Raiford Penitentiary. Even then though, she didn't have a mean attitude toward me, and she never did. But oooh, if she didn't like you, she could so casually tear you apart, with what looked like relish.

Someone sent me an email recently saying that her experience in the Seed was "not that bad. I had some really kind staff and oldcomer treatment." Hey, it happened that way for some people.

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: JaLong on January 18, 2006, 09:52:00 PM

Marshall,
After having some time to think about it, I have come to the conclusion that Susie was real with me. I sat in an office often with her and discussed some very personal and private things about my life. I think that is how I was able to see a therapist on the outside after school. I remember one day at school many people who were my "old Friends" taunted me and kicked, hit, and threw me into lockers, just because I wouldn't talk to them. A few told me years later that they saw a change in me, a smile on my face and in my eyes.. it scared them. Anyhow, I left school and drove straight back to the seed to talk to Susie. She was very comforting, and told me she was proud of me for not falling for my friends crap. She also lived at my old comers house, and we would talk often.
Does anyone remember an older female staff who was a little on the heavy side and was mean?? I know she had brown hair and glasses. Thank you Marshall for sharing your thoughts and feelings with me. Susie was legit with me. I am grateful to her and Arthur for helping me while I was there. Arthur and I were in the clinic together for a week. I had been home for a month with the flu, kidney infection and mono. We would talk when I came back and he was in there I think because of his leg.. I came in 1 month after the seed opened here in St. Pete, and from what others say, things changed or were different in other states. It was pretty mellow, except for some times, when I was in there.
God Bless Marshall,
Julie
ps. I honestly felt happy and proud of myself when I yelled, "I'm coming home."   :smile:

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: GregFL on January 19, 2006, 09:46:00 AM

Me too Jalong.  I was so ready to go home and so emotionally spent from being seperated from my famiy, and also from being convinced it was all my fault.

I think Julie that you are probably correct...that Suzie was really there for you as much as she could be in that context.

There were undoubtedly good people and good things that happened.  To deny that would be just as big an error as to claim that nothing negative ever happened.  Nothing is black and white.

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: cleveland on January 20, 2006, 10:20:00 AM

JaLong, Marshall, Marc:

I so much appreciate reading your postings. I think all of you are able to keep in mind the fact that the Seed was essentially a bunch of kids (and a couple of adults) packed into an emotional pressure cooker - and some reacted better than others. I had a great oldcomer. He was a funny, intellegent, hard-working kid from a large Irish Catholic family from Cleveland's West side working class neighborhood. He could sing beautifully, he told hysterical stories, and he worked his ass off as a construction worker. He was also a real hard ass about Seed doctrine, which made my home life, moral inventories, etc. a real hell. I understand he has become a massage therapist, which kind of freaks me out - he was super macho.

I always heard about Susie Connors. People would reminisce about her beauty, gentleness, kindness - or sometimes would talk about what a hard ass she was. I understand that she was adopted by Art and later died of cancer. That seems so sad to me, even though I never met her.

I also think of Evie, who was a staff member. She was so sweet natured, so pretty, and so kind. But she could also be really Seed-tough too. When I started working at a hospital she was really intrizued, she ended up becoming a nurse and drifted away from the Seed. Maybe that was her big break to be her own person.

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: wtaylorg on January 20, 2006, 11:25:00 AM

Hey cleveland:
Unless I'm wrong Suzie Connors didn't die, Suzie Barker did. You remember Suzie Connors? A smallish redhead with sharp features. She left about a yr or so before me and I left in '85. She worked at the credit card place as an exec. I remember seeing her in the weekend raps when I first moved down there in '82 and I saw her regularly there for at least 2 yrs.

After I hadn't seen her around in a while I find it ironic that one day she was on my list to call about the Safecard insurance and she answered the phone and I thought I recognized that voice, and I looked down and saw her name.
At that point I said I had to go, she might have told me she already had the protection. :eek:)
I never knew Suzie Barker. Wasn't she Art's niece? maybe TK could shed some light on that.
I have read a few postings about staying at the "house" recently My recollection is how everyone got to stay at the "house" except me. I wasn't asked to "watch the house" until shortly before I left. Funny how I was never trusted the whole time I was there to do something as simple as that. But hey I stayed. right?

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: GregFL on January 20, 2006, 11:37:00 AM

I sure wish Suzie Connors would show up here...


Cleveland, you did have the two confused.  Suzie Connors was never adopted by Art, that was Libby, and Suzie Barker was some relative of Arts, like his neice or something.

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: marshall on January 20, 2006, 12:41:00 PM

Now I'm confused too. I distinctly remember Suzie Connors but I don't recall her having red hair. I do remember a staff member named Darlene that had bright red hair though. I never knew Suzie Barker at all. I had a nice oldcomer too. We remained close friends for years after we both graduated the program.

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: Johnny G on January 20, 2006, 01:07:00 PM

I seem to remember Suzie Connors having red hair;  Cleveland, I think you must have seen her a few times;

Wtaylorg, I was a regular watcher of the house - I did it all the time! it was better than football at the beach (for one as athletically challenged as I am) or trying to hide in the group.  I remember at least 2 houses.  

I also have to echo what Cleveland said about the paradox - I also think some of my oldcomers, and some of the staff were sincere and genuinely cared about me when I was on the program and afterward, I also had the idea that we were helping people, etc.

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: marcwordsmith on January 20, 2006, 02:37:00 PM

If I'm not mistaken, Suzie Connors had light brown hair, kind of curly I think. She was kind of pretty, but more than that she had a certain sensuality about her that was extraordinary. She was nice to some people and atrocious to others.

Darlene was the sharp-featured skinny little redhead. I remember her vaguely as being perpetually pissed off.

Suzie Barker was just a gem of a person. As far as I know, she was never mean to anyone. If she was ever mean, I never saw it. Of all the Seed staff, she would be the one I'd most love to talk to today, but she is deceased, as I've heard from Lauderdale and others.

My oldcomer was a sadistic egomaniacal piece of shit.

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on January 20, 2006, 03:22:00 PM

Darlene had short red hair.

Suzie C. might have had a light red tint in there you know like lady clariol or something. She had brown hair. ::bigsmilebounce:: [ This Message was edited by: Ft. Lauderdale on 2006-01-20 12:23 ]

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: Anonymous on January 20, 2006, 03:33:00 PM

Also big news alert ...no adoption ever took place.  She just changed her name.  Kind of like a rebellion thing against her parents. I believe. ::hehehmm::

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on January 20, 2006, 03:38:00 PM

WTaylor check private messages

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: Johnny G on January 20, 2006, 04:24:00 PM

I stand corrected - the color faded over time - or just old guy disease

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: GregFL on January 20, 2006, 06:17:00 PM

Lauderdale is correct...Suzie Connors had long black/brown hair.

However, I believe,and the story was, that Libby was indeed adopted by Art and Shellie.  True or not I don't know, but at the time it sure was claimed to be.

Maybe that honesty thingy wasn't working just right....

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: marshall on January 21, 2006, 02:02:00 AM

Quote

On 2006-01-20 08:37:00, GregFL wrote:

"I sure wish Suzie Connors would show up here...

Yeah, me too. We have GOT to find out if she is or is not a red head! I mean...was she naturally red and then used coloring or maybe naturally brown and dyed her hair red? Will we ever really know? Only if she shows up here and tells us herself...or maybe links us to a picture...or webcam. And...was Robert really a black man or was that just a clever disguise? What was the story behind Art combing his hair like Count Dracula? Did Terry peroxide his hair? Did Libby wear a thong? Stay tuned.

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: GregFL on January 21, 2006, 09:53:00 AM

I am fairly certain that 'thongs' hadn't even been thought up yet.

Damn, there was no internet...cable tv was a new invention..no cell phones...no wifi.

We were downright primitive!

 :grin:

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: Antigen on January 21, 2006, 11:18:00 AM

Only her hairdresser knows for sure.

The hypothalamus is one of the most important parts of the brain, involved in many kinds of motivation, among other functions.  The hypothalamus controls the "Four F's": 1. fighting;  2. fleeing;  3.feeding; and  4. mating.
-- Psychology professor in neuropsychology intro course

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: Anonymous on January 21, 2006, 03:05:00 PM

The thought of Libby in a thong is enough to gag a maggot :exclaim:

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: GregFL on January 21, 2006, 03:47:00 PM

The thought of anyone over 40 in a thong...yecchh!

Title: "if you don't, she will die"
Post by: Stripe on January 21, 2006, 08:58:00 PM

Quote

On 2006-01-21 08:18:00, Eudora (fka ~ Antigen) wrote:

"Only her hairdresser knows for sure.

Knows what...whether or not she wore a thong?   Why whould her hairdresser care what kind of shoes poor girl wore UNLESS.....she was a hobbit in disguise and had to wear thongs when she went to the beauty shop to get the hair on the tops of her feet properly groomed.

Okay, I know - that's just plain wrong on so many levels not to mention the fact that it probably isn't referencing anything relevant in this thread. :smile:  :smile:  :smile: Sweet dreams.