Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: eric on December 22, 2011, 02:05:12 PM
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I've mostly received positive feedback for this website, which I felt prompted to start after sitting through a disgusting deposition involving a case between West Ridge Academy and a youth that was repeatedly physically and sexually abused while there. SO, I'm curious to hear what Fornits thinks about the site. I envisioned it to be inclusive of all sorts of law firms, the firms that tried to sue the mother for speaking out about WWASPS, the Mount Bachelor Academy lawyers, the Catholic priest abuse lawyers, but if the collective "survivor" community feels like this is a net-negative effect on our efforts to stop abuse in residential treatment, I'll gladly let myself be convinced to take it down. I'm all ears, folks.
http://pedophiledefense.wordpress.com (http://pedophiledefense.wordpress.com)
Eric
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I've mostly received positive feedback for this website, which I felt prompted to start after sitting through a disgusting deposition involving a case between West Ridge Academy and a youth that was repeatedly physically and sexually abused while there. SO, I'm curious to hear what Fornits thinks about the site. I envisioned it to be inclusive of all sorts of law firms, the firms that tried to sue the mother for speaking out about WWASPS, the Mount Bachelor Academy lawyers, the Catholic priest abuse lawyers, but if the collective "survivor" community feels like this is a net-negative effect on our efforts to stop abuse in residential treatment, I'll gladly let myself be convinced to take it down. I'm all ears, folks.
http://pedophiledefense.wordpress.com (http://pedophiledefense.wordpress.com)
Eric
Well, it's a two edged sword. On the one hand it tells us who the bad guys are, but it also lets others know which lawyers have experience defending these programs. I think most lawyers are mercenary in that they'll represent whoever pays them, so it could be that a survivor wishing to sue a program might be well served by one of theses guys. If these lawyers were decent, upright, moral citizens then shaming them in this fashion might have an effect, but these are lawyers. I doubt they even have a conscience. So I don't think your site will shame them into doing the right thing.
I don't really have a recommendation for you. What I'd really like to see is a list of lawyers who have represented survivors against abusive programs.
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They'll probably send meaningless demand letters, but there's no case and they're probably smart enough to keep this out of a courtroom. This isn't libel or slander, as he isn't accusing them of doing anything they aren't actually doing. Their clients may be incensed about being called pedophiles, but unfortunately they are pedophiles...
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Eric, why don't you ask Kathryn Whitehead or Brian Lombrowski what they think of this?
Because I don't answer to either Kat or Brian? I don't know the point of that question Wayne.
I do know that there are other defense attorneys who have expressed their support for the site, and have even supplied me with some names. Does that matter?
Oh, and Wayne, I missed this question from you:
Have you asked a lawyer if this is legal? I would. It could be construed as harassment
Yes. I have. Also, see above. It is in no way harassment whatsoever. Not even close.
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Actually, until they're convicted, they're not
That's my point. The presumption is innocence. This is an effort to keep an innocent person from getting a fair shake
When they're found guilty, I say, have at 'em, but until then, I don't see the merit in trying to keep someone from getting a fair trial. It may be well within your rights to do this, but is it right?
Eric, why don't you ask Kathryn Whitehead or Brian Lombrowski what they think of this?
Umm... WHO exactly are you talking about when you say, "until they're convicted, they're not?" Are you referring to the program and/or individuals employed by the program, who are presumably being sued? Or, the attorneys who opt to represent them?
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They're lawyers, they can answer the question better than anyone here.
Umm... Wayne, I hate to break it to you, but neither Kat nor Brian are lawyers. Not even close. I don't know where you are getting that information, but go ahead and ask them yourself. I've known both of them personally for years. They are not lawyers. Sorry, pal.
You said your intention is to get these lawyers to stop defending these people.
Wayne, what's wrong with you? When did I say I wanted lawyers to stop defending people? I thought you were a (self-published) writer? Surely you're a better reader than this. I WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW WHAT LAWYERS defend Residential Treatment Facility Abusers. Does the bold text help?
You said on Face Book that they accuse children of liking being raped. Did they?
Actually, this is what I said (verbatim):
On Tuesday, December 13, 2011, after asking the plaintiff to describe six horrific acts of sexual abuse, assault, and rape at the hands of a Utah Boys Ranch / West Ridge Academy staff member, Mr. Verde asked the victim “Well, did you become sexually aroused [while you were being assaulted]?”
That's a pretty heavy statement to make if you have no evidence.
Luckily I have evidence to convince even a self-published vanity press so-called writer. It's public record. Do you know what "public record" means?
Furthermore, I was an EYEWITNESS to this event. I was in the room when it happened.
And, if you don't, it's libel, and it's harassment, and it's illegal.
You don't know what words like libel and harassment mean, clearly.
You didn't address any of these questions
I answered your coherent questions. If you have any more, write them in a legible fashion and I'll gladly answer them. But first I'll take an apology.
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That's not what you said you liar. I saw that you deleted that thread.
What thread, where?
Hey, Mr. I-pay-for-my-own-books-to-be-published-and-then-I-call-myself-a-writer, go ahead and prove that I'm a liar. What thread did I delete? What did it say?
I'm sorry, pal, but you can't blame poor reading comprehension skills or just plain dishonesty on other people. I said what I said, which is what I've been saying all along. You're the only one who seems to have a problem "remembering" it.
I'm sorry you can't man up and admit to this mistake. Hey, sometimes people read too quickly and miss the point. But not vanity press Wayne. He remembers, verbatim, what I said even though now I supposedly deleted it. Okay buddy.
Go fuck yourself Eric. Now that the gloves are off I'll tell you my first thought. Your idea is stupid.
Wayne, I will give your first thought all the attention it deserves: A nobody, literally, a nobody, tells me my idea is stupid. Well, I guess I'll just have to live with that. Luckily I can weigh your monumentally important opinion against those held by real people, the real professionals, and lawyers, and advocates, and everyone else who actually do things for this cause. I'll have to somehow get over the fact that some wannabe writer who tries to connive victims into buying self-published books thinks my idea is stupid.
If the gloves are really coming off, as you say, you're lucky I have no interest in reviewing your book.
No lawyer would consider this bullshit.
You're right, no lawyer would consider it bullshit. They would applaud it, which they have. Would you like me to connect you with one or two. Real ones, not made up lawyers like Kat and Brian, who aren't and have never been lawyers.
They'd laugh at you.
Grow up, pal. I'm 27 years old, I'm not going to be bullied by someone like you.
Your stupid comment about my writing makes you look like an ass
I'd gladly offer you my professional opinion, if you'd just ask nicely.
Nice meltdown, Wayne. It was sad to watch, but since you've been such a dishonest dickhead, I don't feel too bad letting you have a little healthy dose of the truth.
:rocker:
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One last thing, for Vanity Wayne, jurors don't decide who pedophiles are and aren't. That's just plain ignorant.
In law enforcement, the term "pedophile" is generally used to describe those accused or convicted of child sexual abuse under sociolegal definitions of child (including both prepubescent children and adolescents younger than the local age of consent);[17] however, not all child sexual offenders are pedophiles and not all pedophiles engage in sexual abuse of children.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/g8g66p6370731x85/ (http://www.springerlink.com/content/g8g66p6370731x85/)
Knowledge is power, Wayne. :moon:
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Knowledge is power, Wayne
Then you're powerless
And a liar
Wayne, maybe in the vanity-press world where no one gives a shit about what you write or say, you can get away with making baseless accusations instead of sound, reasoned arguments. Maybe when you graduate to being a real writer, you'll learn the difference. Until then, I'll just pity you. Actually, I'll do you one better. I'll buy 100 copies of your self-published booked (what is that, 100 times more than you've sold already) if you can demonstrate me to be a liar. I'm not going to mind your libel, since you have no credibility with anyone anyways, and are most certainly judgment proof, but I'll give you the chance. Prove me a liar, Wayne. I challenge you.
These lawyers defend their clients publicly and get on TV and in the news, but they're going to dump their clients because Eric has a blog
I know, that must be the plan. I guess I'll just admit that at first my plan was to self-publish the most boring, ineffective book possible, sell it to twelve readers/family members with promises of donating proceeds to CAFETY, and then change the Troubled Teen Industry that way. :roflmao:
But, alas, Vanity Press Wayne beat me to it. Come on, man, give me a break.
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You need to stop drinking, or whatever is wrong with you
In other words, you can't support any of the nasty things you've said about me, but are too prideful to admit you are wrong. I don't drink, by the way. This is all real, my friend. Maybe you shouldn't call people liars without any kind of supporting evidence to back it up if you don't like the reaction you're getting. I'm a professional. My credibility affects my livelihood. Call me a liar and I take it very seriously. You can apologize for calling me a liar, or you can go kick rocks. Either way I'll sleep just fine tonight.
With love,
Eric Norwood
www.MormonGulag.com (http://www.MormonGulag.com)
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You need to stop drinking, or whatever is wrong with you
In other words, you can't support any of the nasty things you've said about me, but are too prideful to admit you are wrong. I don't drink, by the way. This is all real, my friend. Maybe you shouldn't call people liars without any kind of supporting evidence to back it up if you don't like the reaction you're getting. I'm a professional. My credibility affects my livelihood. Call me a liar and I take it very seriously. You can apologize for calling me a liar, or you can go kick rocks. Either way I'll sleep just fine tonight.
With love,
Eric Norwood
http://www.MormonGulag.com (http://www.MormonGulag.com)
Now you're getting boring
Does that mean you'll finally stop this meltdown, or will you turn boring into another vanity book?
Just kidding, don't answer that, pal. Happy Holidays. I hope Santa leaves Strunk & White in your stocking this year.
With Good Tidings and Cheer,
Eric Norwood
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You still haven't answered the pertinent questions Eric.
Jesus Christ Wayne, all I've been doing is answering your questions. Even the loaded, irrelevant ones. Watch, I'll do it one last time.
If you keep people who are rightly accused of sexually abused children from getting lawyers, you also keep the ones who are wrongly accused from getting one.
Here is an easy answer: I (when you say "YOU" I assume you mean me, Eric Norwood) have no ability to keep people from getting lawyers. That's impossible. Do you understand that, Wayne? Furthermore, I never said I don't want them to have lawyers. In fact, I do want them to have lawyers, and I hope they are all disgusting lawyers like those at Ogletree Deakins so that I can add them to the website http://pedophiledefense.wordpress.com/ (http://pedophiledefense.wordpress.com/)
Okay, Wayne? Do you get it now. Can you be a man and apologize, or, at the very least, leave me the hell alone. It scares me to have such an incoherent, irrational person following me around asking questions that just don't make any sense whatsoever.
Seasons Greetings,
Eric Norwood
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You still haven't answered the pertinent questions Eric.
Jesus Christ Wayne, all I've been doing is answering your questions. Even the loaded, irrelevant ones. Watch, I'll do it one last time.
If you keep people who are rightly accused of sexually abused children from getting lawyers, you also keep the ones who are wrongly accused from getting one.
Here is an easy answer: I (when you say "YOU" I assume you mean me, Eric Norwood) have no ability to keep people from getting lawyers. That's impossible. Do you understand that, Wayne? Furthermore, I never said I don't want them to have lawyers. In fact, I do want them to have lawyers, and I hope they are all disgusting lawyers like those at Ogletree Deakins so that I can add them to the website http://pedophiledefense.wordpress.com/ (http://pedophiledefense.wordpress.com/)
Okay, Wayne? Do you get it now. Can you be a man and apologize, or, at the very least, leave me the hell alone. It scares me to have such an incoherent, irrational person following me around asking questions that just don't make any sense whatsoever.
Seasons Greetings,
Eric Norwood
What an interesting thread...
I know, right? :feedtrolls:
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I'm probably going to regret getting involved in this.
Eric, I didn't know who you were when you first posted above in this thread. Now I do. I've read your account of being trapped in a Mormon Gulag. It's an amazing story. I'm sorry you had to live through that and you've done a great job of exposing the abuse that goes on (went on) there.
Wayne, I've read your story too as well as some of the controversy that seems to have sprung up around you. I don't know what the truth is about your and Danny's history at Elan. But that place was terrible and I'm glad you both survived.
This thread started out as a seemingly simple request by Eric seeking opinions regarding his list of lawyers who represent programs. Wayne made what I thought was a reasonable point by saying basically that everyone is entitled to legal representation and that we should be careful about making baseless accusations. I understood Eric's reason for calling the lawyers pedophiles. It was a bit of hyperbole of the type people often engage in in conversation, but Wayne's point was still valid.
I don't understand why this reasoned debate denigrated into personal attacks. Both of you guys have valuable contributions to make here and I wish we could keep our discussions focused on the issues rather than attacking each other.
Best Wishes and Happy Holidays.
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I've mostly received positive feedback for this website, which I felt prompted to start after sitting through a disgusting deposition involving a case between West Ridge Academy and a youth that was repeatedly physically and sexually abused while there. SO, I'm curious to hear what Fornits thinks about the site. I envisioned it to be inclusive of all sorts of law firms, the firms that tried to sue the mother for speaking out about WWASPS, the Mount Bachelor Academy lawyers, the Catholic priest abuse lawyers, but if the collective "survivor" community feels like this is a net-negative effect on our efforts to stop abuse in residential treatment, I'll gladly let myself be convinced to take it down. I'm all ears, folks.
http://pedophiledefense.wordpress.com (http://pedophiledefense.wordpress.com)
Eric
After reading both of your threads I'm surprised at you. As an Elan survivor I'm offended at your attack on Wayne's book. Even Danny didn't do that. It's the defining book on that fucking place. Not one person from either side has done what you have.
I'd like to know the answer you have to his question about people who are falsely accused. It happens. If you are successful with your goal they won't be able to get lawyers either. What do you have to say about that?
That was where this thread went south, and you refuse to address the question
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Yes, Wayne is right. This is about the kids :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Felice, stop pretending to be Wayne pretending to me. Your trolling program survivors again ::poke::
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This place is like a car wreck. I keep telling myself not to look, but it's too fucked up not to
:boycott:
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I'd like to know the answer you have to his question about people who are falsely accused. It happens. If you are successful with your goal they won't be able to get lawyers either. What do you have to say about that?
That was where this thread went south, and you refuse to address the question
I've answered it 20 times already, but here it is again. Your question is a non sequitur. How would the website keep an innocent or guilty (mind you, this database is strictly for INSTITUTIONS like residential treatment facilities) person from obtaining counsel?
It won't. Even if my goal was to see due process circumvented and every accused pedophile sent straight to Guantanamo Bay without so much as an arraignment, that would be impossible.
(Is that really what I've made you all think?)
Am I still refusing to address the question, and to blame for Wayne, or are we good now?
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Here's my gut reaction to the content of the website. Everyone is entitled to legal representation. A lawyer is entitled to defend his client. A lawyer is not entitled to defame or libel the accuser. Child sex abuse cases often are defended by in effect defaming the accuser. It is the equivalent of saying that a rape victim asked for it.
Joe Amendola (Jerry Sandusky's lawyer) is a classic example of this, and frankly after the Penn State victims are done suing Sandusky, and Penn State, and the Second Mile, they should go after Amendola for defamation.
There are ways to argue a case even when a pedophile is guilty that do not call into question the character of the accuser. Like arguing facts, or timeline, or intent, or culpability. To that end, I would trim down the website to focus those lawyers who in their defense of their clients have gone on the attack against their accusers.
As you sat in on the deposition of the Utah Boys Ranch case, I think you can make your own judgement about the character of those lawyers. Same with Joe Sandusky's lawyers as they have been quite publicly disgusting about the way they have handled the case. I don't know enough about the others to say one way or the other.
Just my .02.
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I'd like to know the answer you have to his question about people who are falsely accused. It happens. If you are successful with your goal they won't be able to get lawyers either. What do you have to say about that?
That was where this thread went south, and you refuse to address the question
I've answered it 20 times already, but here it is again. Your question is a non sequitur. How would the website keep an innocent or guilty (mind you, this database is strictly for INSTITUTIONS like residential treatment facilities) person from obtaining counsel?
It won't. Even if my goal was to see due process circumvented and every accused pedophile sent straight to Guantanamo Bay without so much as an arraignment, that would be impossible.
(Is that really what I've made you all think?)
Am I still refusing to address the question, and to blame for Wayne, or are we good now?
What is the point of the website?
I thought it was agreed it was to coerce lawyers into shying away from clients who are accused of child molestation or rape.
Pardon me if I was misinformed
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This thread does have merit and should be allowed to continue uncluttered from all posts that don't pertain to it. I would like it very much if we could have data archived somewhere with all these lawyers names attached to the facility and child. They are a major part of the problem with this industry and need to be put on the stage front and center.
We need to remember these are children we are talking about here not adults.
Just some thoughts.
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Here's my gut reaction to the content of the website. Everyone is entitled to legal representation. A lawyer is entitled to defend his client. A lawyer is not entitled to defame or libel the accuser. Child sex abuse cases often are defended by in effect defaming the accuser. It is the equivalent of saying that a rape victim asked for it.
Joe Amendola (Jerry Sandusky's lawyer) is a classic example of this, and frankly after the Penn State victims are done suing Sandusky, and Penn State, and the Second Mile, they should go after Amendola for defamation.
There are ways to argue a case even when a pedophile is guilty that do not call into question the character of the accuser. Like arguing facts, or timeline, or intent, or culpability. To that end, I would trim down the website to focus those lawyers who in their defense of their clients have gone on the attack against their accusers.
As you sat in on the deposition of the Utah Boys Ranch case, I think you can make your own judgement about the character of those lawyers. Same with Joe Sandusky's lawyers as they have been quite publicly disgusting about the way they have handled the case. I don't know enough about the others to say one way or the other.
Just my .02.
I have to agree. This should be the focus.
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What is the point of the website?
From the site directly:
"This site is a database that chronicles which law firms and “officers of the court” earn a living defending child abusers, sex abusers of children, pedophiles [at] institutions that torture and physically and sexually abuse children."
Particularly those that victimize victims as part of their "legal strategy."
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Wayne can you step outside of your delusion for one moment and realize you are a moron first and for most. That you have no idea what Eric is doing and how much time and effort he has invested. STFU!!!
Grow up and stop with your need to be vindictive constantly. Then maybe you can begin to curb you insatiable appetite to get back at your distractors which is nothing more then a ill thought out knee jerk reaction
to a threat you have super imposed because of a unresolved insecurity (fear). Do the work lazy one and you won't have to litter this site with your immaturity. You also may stop whining to and bothering Kat or anyone else who will
listen also. Trust this they all have better things to do then to cater to your every wounded feeling you get when you piss someone off.
Try acting like a man for once in your life.
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Oh FFS, Wayne. Knock it off. You're not achieving anything.
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Again, we're all Danny. You really are a complete moron.
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