Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: John Underwood on August 05, 2005, 05:34:00 PM
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The Seed was an ideal, not Art Barker, not Shelly Barker, not myself or any other staff member.
Principles such as self-honesty, self-respect, brotherly love, courage, and a willingness to dedicate yourself to these convictions constituted the ideal. Be your own best friend while learning to love yourself was the intended pursuit, ...agenda if you will. The inability (or unwillingness) to separate personalities and methodology from what The Seed offered was never a problem for me, I was lucky I guess. I got it from day one when I was still in the front row with the cotton in my mouth.
This ideal remains the foundation of my life to this day, which is why, in part, I initially hesitated at the request to post at a site, (which I only learned of the night before last), that on the surface appears contrary. Nevertheless, some lingering, probably ill-advised, sense of responsibility to those who were in the program led me here today.
After a cursory journey through the postings I was appalled, but after some reflection I decided some of you might be sincerely interested in the first-hand knowledge and views of another Seed graduate, one who worked there for 6 years. Those who use this site solely to spout venom for its own sake, and thrive on the venom of others, probably should stop here. You won?t be interested.
First, some specific questions posed at this site. No, neither Art or anyone at The Seed in a position of responsibility, had any affiliation whatsoever with Synanon. There was a rehab in Wilton Manors, Spectrum House, that was loosely modeled after Synanon. The program was inspired by Alcoholics Anonymous, modified by Art, (with the help and suggestions of others such as Dave R., [who did have a degree in psychology], his wife and others whose names allude me), to better fit the drug culture. Initially it was informal rap sessions with a dozen or so participants. However, as the program grew, outside monies were acquired, parental and court(s) involvement became a factor, thus rules were necessitated. The steps were a tailored version of the 12 Steps of AA. All of the signs and slogans, i.e. ?You Are Not Alone,? ?First Things First,? ?Easy Does It,? et al, are the same ones that are postered on the walls of AA. This is not any great mystery.
No full-time Seed staff member with any meaningful duration of service and dedication to the ideal had anything whatsoever to do with Straight. We thought it was conceived and based in conceit, ...we thought it was dangerous! The relentlessness of parents who believed they knew how to better operate The Seed and the problems arising from their zealousness is the only reason The Seed left St. Petersburg. They got what they wanted. The perception that government reports, the Times, or grant money had any effect on Art or those of us in positions of responsibility is farcical. We thought it was a joke and could not have cared less. As stated, however, the volume of parental interference was intolerable. The irony here, of course, is that many of your postings suggest and allege excessive fervor, while personally we were accused on a regular basis, by parents, of being ?too soft.?
Which brings me to allegations of physical abuse posted at this site. This was never acceptable or tolerated under any circumstances. I am not omnipotent, nor was anyone I worked with. Despite popular belief, we did not know everything that occurred away from The Seed. If I, or anyone I was close to, even suspected physical abuse, the consequence to the perpetrator would have been severe. I read one post that stated kids were taken outside and beaten while the group sang to cover up the sound. This, like several similar posts, is 100% bullshit, and undermines the credibility this site! There are some things that no one could have or would have got away with!
Personally, I had no problem coming down on those whose disruptive personalities were defined by arrogance, self-centeredness, lack of respect and consideration of others. I had a very low tolerance for self-indulgent, immature, unnecessary and inappropriate behavior. That hasn?t changed. Stupidity always carries a consequence.
What happened? (To the program and me) As the program expanded more rules and regulations, or at least the rigidity of enforcement, was necessitated to maintain control. This occurred in direct proportion to growth. It is my opinion, and mine alone, that the amount of control actually needed was far less than that perceived necessary, which was integral to the eventual downfall of The Seed. Not enough competent staff to go around was an obvious problem, but not to everyone. Good people, dedicated staff were thrown in over their heads, without adequate support, particularly in St. Pete and Cleveland. An unfortunate situation that led to many of the problems at St. Pete and, as previously stated, one that many of the St. Pete parents attempted to exploit. Art and The Seed is analogous to a parent who lives in fear of his child growing up and going out on their own. He wouldn?t have it, and this was fatal to the potential of The Seed, the dream. The dream and the vision were Art?s, and he deserves the appropriate credit. For the record, (as it is the subject many posts here), his oft embarrassing showboating, sometimes bordering on buffoonery, were irrelevant to me. Personalities were minor details in my mind when compared to what we wanted to achieve, and my respect for his initial goal was never diminished because of his behavior, nor was my respect for what he had accomplished. Nevertheless, refusal to concede that The Seed, the ideal had become bigger, and in my mind more important than Art, was akin to blasphemy, and at the core of the demise.
?Art is The Seed,? was thrown at me during a confrontation with Lybbi on my final night at The Seed, in front of Art and Shelly. Prophetic, in that the program was to shrink to proportions that made this true. When my loyalty after all those years was questioned, my only response was that my loyalty was to ?The Seed first, Art second.? This distinction was deemed unacceptable in no uncertain terms that very night. So I left.
I realize that, by no stretch of the imagination, does this answer all of the questions nor allay any of the ill feelings, nor is it my intent to do so.
I wrote earlier of my initial disdain so I will close by commenting on the characterizations used by some to relate The Seed experience. Terms like ?survivors? used to portray faux heroism for enduring an ordeal, the suffering experienced for having to eat peanut butter and jelly and sit in hard chairs, sleeping in uncomfortable conditions, comparing the experience to Korean brainwashing facilities or gulags, speaks volumes about who you are, and is reflective of the spoiled, self-indulgent mind set you still carry, and your ridiculously exaggerated sense of self-importance. This isn?t just your problem, it seems to be a common and acceptable malady in today?s America. When one of you volunteers to live on the streets of Sao Paolo or Calcutta for a month, actually spends time in a North Korean prison, takes up residence in the bush of the west Congo, et al, then perhaps you may be qualified to speak about survival.
Love, willingness, faith and acceptance, mixed with some gratitude and humility, nurtured to fruition with unwavering, rigorous self-honesty, that hopefully lead to greater self awareness, was the order of business at The Seed to me. Those who got it and wanted to learn, did.
Those who didn?t, evidently, are at this web site.
Nevertheless, I do congratulate Greg and Ginger for providing a forum that allows all opinions to be heard. At least I don?t think the First Amendment has been incorporated into the Patriot Act yet, hold on let me check today?s paper....
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Thanks John! Your post is most appreciated as is your participation here. We obsviously disagree on some points but as you know, we both had a wonderfull extended conversation today.
This is a learning process for all. You have information that some people here may be interested in learning about, discussing, or even disagreeing with you on. I know I do...on all accounts.
Thank you again for coming here. Your willingness to answer questions in this forum speaks volums for your integrity and sense of responsiblity.I would at this point like to shut up (yes it is possible!) and let others comment or ask questions.
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One small point John...that post you allude to indicated that persons at the St Pete Seed were punched BY Their parents at the direction of the staff. This in fact is well documented in the press and I have an indpendent memory of it occuring to two seperate people. Also, the threat was made to the group that it could happen to anyone. Hell, my father even remembers this as it was great topic of conversation among the parents. Of course he alledges he would have "never participated".
I am not alledging you had ANY involvement in this as I have no recollection of you being there during this fiasco, and it was admittedly done over a short period of time. However, this story made the local and national press . I will be happy to forward you a copy of the article where it appeared.
Okay, I can't shut up.
:grin:
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I would like to also thank you for posting John...
I remember you well from my time in St Pete and the subsequent move to Ft Lauderdale.
As a screwed up 16 y/o I recall fearing you & respecting you.
Regarding this site, I have found it to be very helpful in coming to grips with an important part of my life. I disagree with alot of the comments & feelings of other posters but they are "their" feelings and I can accept them as well as sometimes disagreeing with them.
Now that you have found this site... I would hope that you would read more posts and maybe respond when you feel inclined. I don't believe that you will be "beat up on".
Posting & reading the posts have helped me to remember alot of the good & bad times. Overall, my experience helped me as a person & I am glad that I was put in The Seed to put me on the right path.
Greg Jordan
Sarasota [ This Message was edited by: Filobeddoe on 2005-08-05 22:24 ]
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Thanks John for posting some good insights.
I've been meaning to say something here on Fornits for a couple of
years now, but haven't. Don't know why, just didn't. So with respect
to John's post, here I go. Pardon me if this is a little rambling and
not the best of prose.
For me, my experience at The Seed was very positive, though I rarely
talk about it to people. Overall I would say it changed me, made me
think very differently about myself and the world. Its funny, but
what I remember the most about The Seed was the idealism John refers
to. I think that is the main thing that the Seed changed in me.
Going to the seed was one of the defining times in my life, and I, for
one, am very grateful that *I* was lucky enough to go to The Seed.
I went in for a relatively minor offense. No law involved, just
another Seed person told my parents I had smoked some dope. I could
be mad about this. Strangely enough, I never was mad, not mad that it
happened, not mad at the person who told, not mad at my parents, mad
at no one. I don't know why.
I went to The Fort Pierce Seed. Perhaps I was lucky here, because it
was relatively small, and maybe that idealism John refers to ran high
there. The Fort Pierce Seed closed while I was still in the program.
I finished at the Fort Lauderdale Seed, which I never felt the same
about it as I did the Fort Pierce Seed. Perhaps the size, those rules
John refers to, or perhaps just a strange emotion, but I liked the
Fort Pierce Seed.
Being at the seed was intense. Very intense. Perhaps too intense. I
definitely can see many of the comments (complaints) that other have.
I was one of those people alluded to in some post as not having done
much in the way of drugs, I truly had only smoked dope a handful of
times. I can remember the pressure that "surly I was much worse than
that". However I just said what was true. O.k. there was a fair
amount of pressure, because that was a standard ruse. But people did
eventually believe me, I told no lies.
It was confusing there, it was intense, at times it was boring. And I
was way too young, 17 going on 11. (17 physical, 11 emotional)
I still have a hard time describing what happened there. Maybe it was
one of those experiences "that you have to go through even if you
don't like it, but it will be good for you". No, not quite. While I
wouldn't say I had "fun" or that I liked it there, and at the time I
was too young to really understand, I knew it was the right thing.
When it came time for me to graduate, I did things to keep from
graduating. I didn't want to leave. But eventually I did.
I definitely left confused, some what scared, and still very young.
But I left with something that was very good, very positive and hard
to define. I think a strange sense of idealism might describe it.
Yes, I learned a lot about what alcoholics anonymous really is, I
learned a lot about trivial stuff like the games people play, how
people lie, and why. But I left with something more. Maybe I saw
people for who they really are. Really good people, everyone, really
good.
I remember it like it was just yesterday. The people, the faces, what
everyone said. All of it.
I know "seed screw ups". I know people who do a lot of drugs since
going to the seed. I know people who's life is a shamble after going
to the seed. I know seed graduates that committed suicide. But, I
know people who never went to the seed that do a lot of drugs. And, I
know people who's life is a shamble that never set foot in the seed.
Also, I know people who committed suicide that never heard of the
seed.
Who am I today? How did the seed determine me today? Hard to say.
I've done more drugs since I went to the seed. I drink. I think
people would think of me as successful. Three college degrees, good
job, married, two children. I'm in love with my wife, she's in love
with me. I'm also getting a divorce. Does this make since? No.
Neither does life. The pursuit of happiness -- way too simple. Its
all too complex.
Different people take different things with them as they pass through
life. I can see where many of the other people are coming from in the
post on Fornits, I not saying they are wrong. For them, and their
experiences, and who they are, they are right. You put a different
person in a given situation, and they take different things from that
situation. Your particular experience is not right for anyone but
you.
Yes, we *all* remember the The Seed, we all think of the seed. ...
I cried when I found from the web that the seed had closed, I always
wanted to go back for one last visit. Perhaps thats why I come to
this forum, even the bad things said about the seed make me feel a
little better.
In closing, I would like to quote Bob Dylan: "I was so much older
then, I'm younger than that now". For me (remember: "Talk about
yourself!"), the older I get the less I know is very true. Its not as
clear or as simple as I use to think.
For everyone who went to The Seed, for better or worse, we are all
somehow bound together, having done something, shared in something,
that almost no one else has, bound by this thing call The Seed.
-- John
[ This Message was edited by: John_FtPierce on 2005-08-05 22:51 ][ This Message was edited by: John_FtPierce on 2005-08-05 22:56 ]
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I want to thank you John for posting. I remember you from the St. Pete Seed. You know after reading what you have written, I have got to say my experience wasn't too bad. I think the worst part was my parents getting me into the car, driving up Park Blvd, and my Dad handing me a phoney court order. Then Mrs Peterman threatening me to sign the intake form or I'd be arrested. I was so scared, because my best friend and her brother were in there and I knew they were on Staff. Linda and Bruce Delk. I use go to the Seed and harrass the place. I was a very insecure, low self-esteem, angry girl at 17.
Once I was in there, I saw people smiling, which is not something I did very often. I wanted what I saw in others. Slowly but surely I started getting it. Having "buster" newcomers as a responsibility helped my self-esteem. The downside was I started having a lot of anxiety, and then panic attacks. I hated being called on.
As the time went on I was learning whom I was. I started to like myself, even to love myself. To make a long story short, I hated being in there only because I felt the Seed and staff had full control of me. That was my ego. It has been 31 years since that time. I didn't drink for 19 yrs after, now just occasionally, I have never gone back to drugs, and I still carry with me, and live the principals of the program. I always thought I was "Korean styled brainwashed", because that's what the newspapers said. I didn't know what was going on behind the scenes with some parents. I too remember a boy being hit, and someone getting hit with a belt by a parent back in the office. I held a resentment towards my parents for a long time, but heck, they saved my life. I have lost 19 old friends,mostly from overdose, but I am still here. And very happy also. Please continue to post. What you wrote helped me to see what really happened. I need to know that. Thanks!
Julie
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I think what you said was very powerful. I know that if it were not for the Seed I would not be here today with such a nice life.
I was never happy in my life and not even as a child. I only found happiness when I learned how to love myself and others. I can't express all that the Seed gave me in my life. They gave me lots of things that I rely on today. I know that not everything in life is perfect but I feel the Seed did more positive things in my life than anything.
I was at the Seed until the end which was probably one of the worst times in my life, but I still have such treasured memories of all of the wonderful years I shared with others.
It was nice to see your post and hear what you have to say after all of these years.
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So from my conversation with John I learned that he came into the seed on the front row, and the theory that maybe he brought the synanon style techniques flies out the window.
Good. What we need is less speculation and more facts.
John, here are a few questions for you.
Were ANY of the early staff members brought in without going thru the program?
Do you remember ever meeting Robert Dupont personally? If so, Did he make any demands or suggestions on the program, and are you aware that he testified in court that the "Beginning of all this" (talking about straight that came from the seed) was the synanon?
Now, he could have been talking about the theraputic community (TC) concept in general or he could have meant a direct connection. This is why so many people have speculated that there was a direct connection from the seed to the synanon. I tried for a long time to make this connection and never could and eventually stopped believing it existed.
thanks in advance...
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I have posted on this site a few other times in past about my experience at the Seed about both the good and the bad.
I was a part of the Seed for about 6 years and I will say I?m grateful for all those years.
My experiences of those years are what formulated the foundation of what I base my life on today. I can remember that warm sunny October afternoon walking up the stairs on State Road 84 blinded by the sunlight as it contrasted with the shadow of the rap room and seeing for the first time all the clean cut smiling faces that were so welcoming me. I can remember being so scared by this that I felt like turning around running for that gate on 84 and just keep running till I could go no more. I choose not to run and stay and take my medicine because my past indicated to me that I really had no clue how to manage my life. I was 22 years old seasoned veteran druggie that was release from the Dade county jail to the Seed looking for a last shot of redemption.
I had no clue what I was getting into at the time I would have been happy if I just would have been taught how I could go through one day without having to get high.
In retrospect I learned a whole world of knowledge which over the years has became so entrenched and synonymous with the person I have become and hopefully with the person I will someday fully evolve into.
The Seed was not perfect as none of us are and the Seed grew and evolved as we did. There came a time when I began to feel stifled and over controlled by the Seed and after many years I?ve come to the conclusion that it was just my time to move on and to venture on my own and apply what I had learned and to rely on my new foundation.
In this time my perception changed as I changed I grew in knowledge, strength and the group thinking became well formulated opinions based on a practical understanding.
I do not look at my time at the Seed with regret or frustration nor do I harbor any resentment toward the Seed quiet the contrary, I hold those years as very special and for the most part with much fondness especially to the friendships that formulated into very solid bonds so too which are very much a part of my life and add so much to what I count as my blessings. I often find myself wondering how some old friend I have not heard from in years is doing. Do they remember me in a good way do they hold the Seed in the same light as I do?
I often thought that I was unique in the importance or the impression the Seed had placed on me but, one thing that has been become so very clear to me by reading all the post is what a profound impression the Seed has left on all those who found themselves walking in through those doors.
?May God bless us; everyone?
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BTW....Welcome John Ft Pierce!
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Thanks Greg, and not to forget Ginger (Antigen).
I posted a very positive post. I can see that there are others who
also feel very positively about their experience as well.
I think that there have been bad things related to the seed. I think
that maybe there were some abuses. Hopefully just with the parents,
not staffers. But I think that as any "institution" grows in size,
things are not as well defined, not as well monitored, ... , whatever.
Abuses occur everywhere. For better or worse, they do occur. One can
look at almost any intuition and see them. I work for a university.
I see some people who are abused unfairly by the university, I see
others who receive preferential treatment. This is a fact of life.
** To those who may have been abused by unusual circumstances at the
seed, *I* personally apologize. **
I would hope that people can see past this, see past trivial things.
Yes, the damn peanut butter and jelly sandwiches were horrible, the
seats uncomfortable. Yes, things were regimented and controlled.
Yes, there was "peer pressure" within the seed. Yes, too many, many
things.
But, at least for me, there was so much more.
I don't think "the seed saved my life". I wasn't that kind of person.
I probably wouldn't have dyed had I not been to the seed. But, it did
change my life, and as I said earlier, for so much the better.
However, I have done a great amount of researching, reading the web,
all over. And it does seem to me that some of the other drug rehab
institutions were not like the seed. It is difficult not to believe
that Straight was pretty bad, even if I only believes 0.01% of what
I've read. I am somewhat upset that the seed is seen as the
predecessor of things that might be as bad as I suspect.
I think that the seed and all of its founders, creators and staff had
nothing but the best of intentions. Maybe these intentions were still
swirling with the idealism of the late 60s: "we are going to change
the world". I'm older now and have seen that idealism many times in
my life. While I don't believe in it as much as I use to, I still
hope and dream that it comes true as much as ever.
-- John
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On 2005-08-05 14:34:00, John Underwood wrote:
The irony here, of course, is that many of your postings suggest and allege excessive fervor, while personally we were accused on a regular basis, by parents, of being ?too soft.?
I think the more salient irony here is that you guys didn't know what the hell you were messing with either.
Let's start w/ the first and most impotent rule. Where the hell was that when you were telling my 14yo brother that his dad didn't love him enough to come to open meetings? The truth of the matter is that you assholes didn't like his attitude when you gave him the ultimatum to sever ties w/ all of his best old friends or to make himself scarce while his sons were in the program.
I remember that night. I remember him cussing up a storm over how that damned professional alcoholic was happy to take his money and food donations and then have some smart assed 16yo druggie kid try to tell him how to live. Do you guys remember ever having ham and bologna? Remember those spice encrusted turkeys at thanksgiving? Thank my dad. All that good grub, plus cash donations, came from my dad and his friend, Lou DiFasio. You can even ask him if he's still alive. He was still living in Pompano when we moved up here 3 years ago.
Did you know that, while my dad wasn't allowed to attend open meetings, he was sitting out in the parking lot? I spent a few evenings out in that old orange grove star gazing w/ him. And I must say, it was a much better investment of my time than what was going on in that smoke filled open meeting room.
But you have NO idea what your lies did to my brother. He believed you, John! "Poor Tommy, even though his own dad doesn't love him enough to get w/ the program, he's still working hard to overcome his (non-existant) drug problem. But we love him, don't we group?" No, evidently you did not. Not unless he bent to your rules and to your beliefs, even about himself and his own blood. It was conditional; that's not love!
Then there's the rather notorious, pettite teenager w/ the $1k/day drug habit? John, if you really were a heroin addict when you showed up, I guess you might have known what a rediculous lie that was. Did it never occure to you to even wonder why no one ever challenged that?
And how about the 90% success rate? Or was it 99%? :rofl: Pulled right out of Art Barkers ass, that one was! Of course, that's one aspect of the Program that I can believe was taken right out of AA.
I guess honesty is only important when you're grilling a 14yo for the torrid details of their sex life and private thoughts in front of a rather intimidating group of peers, huh?
I recognize that some people have fond memories of their involvement w/ the Seed. However, I also recognize that many of those fond memories are based on total bullshit.
My memory of those years are all about having to pretend I just loved the Program and all those open meetings and even the after meeting marathons at the back booth at Denny's. The reality is that, after I hit the age of around 11 or 12 or so, I was terrified every single week that I wouldn't be going home after open meeting. Can you imagine what it's like for a kid having to keep that to myself? I couldn't confide in anyone because having a bad attitude about the Seed was, certainly, a druggie attitude that would require treatment.
Oh, and that's not all. Same for wearing makeup or anything close to stylish clothing, having friends my own age was also verbotten. Remember, 90% of all teenagers are druggies, therefore teenage friends are probably druggie friends, therefore ..... well I had an extremely lonely childhood. By the time I got free and looked up my allegedly druggie boyfriend, he was already a freshman at Berkeley on a music scholarship. But then, his parents weren't insane. When my mom tried to convince them that their son needed a program, they ignored her.
Why do I feel the need to rain on your parade? Simple, really. You paint such a rosey picture of the whole thing that, unless those of us who know the other side of the story speak up, we wind up w/ Brother Jeb! building $100M worth of what he believes is juvenile drug rehabilitation centers where juvenile judges can compel kids to confess to drug problems they don't have.
I know your intentions were good. Never doubted that. But you just seem to be completely blind to the damage the whole thing has done. Sorry, The Seed was not unique. It was, just as Bobby DuPont promised, an attempt to replicate the Synanon method throughout the land. I just don't want my grandkids to have to live under the cloud of fear that I did when I was a kid. So I think it's worth hurting you guys' feelings.
Remember, honesty is the first and most impotent rule. And no, my brain never needed a good washing.
The world is so exquisite, with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's no good evidence. Far better, it seems to me, to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.
--Carl Sagan
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;
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:nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy:
First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.
Gandhi
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OK, I am weighing in.
I have very fond memories of the Seed, and I have harsh memories as well. No, the hard seats and the soggy sandwiches didn't kill me, and I was glad to have some discipline. What hurt, was realizing that the 'love' I was promised was conditional upon my acting a certain way, which required me to be less than honest. Yes, it was good to have a 'good attitude;' no, it was bad to not be able to live my life to be the person I am. I lost many years at the Seed to trying to follow a path others had laid out for me - I gained some other things that I also can't ignore. The Seed harnessed my sixties idealism (OK it was the seventies!) but didn't give it free reign. That was were it fell far, far short for me. And as to all those friends I though I had - few of them, few of them, truly cared for me, with the exception I can say, of a couple I have been in touch with here. And oh my god, did I need friends. It would have been nice to have kept them. Seven years of my life and so little carried over.
Life is complex, and the Seed tried to make it all simple. It did fail in some ways, Suceeded in others. What remains for me is the ideal of trying to be good and love others, but I had that when I came in and I had to find ways to regain it when I left the Seed. I felt betrayed and lost when I left the Seed, as if I had failed. I had not, I needed to see that.
I am glad for the postings here. There is so much more I want to say because none of this is adequate. Apparently I am somewhat bitter and unresolved, but I don't think greatly so. I am a happy guy today, I can tell you that. I learn from all of this. It was my youth.
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On 2005-08-06 12:55:00, John_FtPierce wrote:
"Thanks Greg, and not to forget Ginger (Antigen).
I posted a very positive post. I can see that there are others who
also feel very positively about their experience as well.
I think that there have been bad things related to the seed. I think
that maybe there were some abuses. Hopefully just with the parents,
not staffers. But I think that as any "institution" grows in size,
things are not as well defined, not as well monitored, ... , whatever.
Abuses occur everywhere. For better or worse, they do occur. One can
look at almost any intuition and see them. I work for a university.
I see some people who are abused unfairly by the university, I see
others who receive preferential treatment. This is a fact of life.
** To those who may have been abused by unusual circumstances at the
seed, *I* personally apologize. **
I would hope that people can see past this, see past trivial things.
Yes, the damn peanut butter and jelly sandwiches were horrible, the
seats uncomfortable. Yes, things were regimented and controlled.
Yes, there was "peer pressure" within the seed. Yes, too many, many
things.
But, at least for me, there was so much more.
I don't think "the seed saved my life". I wasn't that kind of person.
I probably wouldn't have dyed had I not been to the seed. But, it did
change my life, and as I said earlier, for so much the better.
However, I have done a great amount of researching, reading the web,
all over. And it does seem to me that some of the other drug rehab
institutions were not like the seed.....
I think that the seed and all of its founders, creators and staff had
nothing but the best of intentions.
the entire teen help industry has commonality running thru it. The idealism of the seed was not based on 60s free love and "changing the world" but rather more on a egocentric movement to stop drugs at any cost, damn the collateral damage. This attitude and treatment modality existed thruout the united states by the time Art "invented" these techniques..only surprise suprise, they were already in full force and being practiced on children at CEDU, Elan and other treatment facilities that predate the seed. How art learned of them is stil a mystery even if he or his top staff was not connected directly to the synanon. The premise that art conjured up all these techniques out of thin air is erroneous and downright disengenious. Also, the assertion that it was all AA is also patently false. AA NEVER locks you up involuntarily, uses "come down on you by your "peers" techniques and makes you publicly confess to your crimes and sins and puts toilet seats around your neck. These are TC modalities pure and simple.
Never forget that the vast majority of those lovey dovey staff members were imparting their "gift of love" on basically 12-17 year old PRISONERS, not on a bunch of kids that voluntarily signed up to change the world. Don't forget that this love included not even allowing these little children to have their backs touch their chairs, 105 degree extended heat with only occastional water breaks, prohibition of the children to even let their mind wander for a moment without the threat of severe punishment, to withold family affection, decent food and freedom of bowel and urinary movement until "they got it" as you apparently did on your first or second day at the adult age of 22.
This idealism of the staff would have been just fine if it wasn't done in a coersive abusive non- voluntary environment. It was. All the flowery posturing aside, the Seed was a personality cult that with the blessing of misbeggoten parents, inprisoned and then practiced crude behavior modification on children including sleep deprivation, food deprivation, witholding of bathroom priviveldes, fear and intimidation, threat of inprisonmnet and loss of family for non compliance.
You wanna change the world? Start by looking inward at what really occured during the 6 years you were there, and apologize to the people that were harmed instead of blaming them for "not getting it". Stop hiding behind all this "saving lives" mumbo jumbo and own up to locking little kids up, terrorizing, humiliating, degrading, love bombing and ostraciizing them from their family. then, when all was said and done, cutting them off from their new "family" when they tried to assert independence and free will. Oh how easy it must be for someone of strong will that entered this environment in their 20s and quickly rose to the top to bash the now adult attendees of this cult who were once harmed little children held against their will without really trying to understand the harm that occured. You guys forced little tiny children under the guise of "saving their lives" into involuntary hero worship of a little egomaniac asshole and his handpicked croonies and now you bash them 30 years later for "not getting it".
As far as the testimonials, you can set up a website and get positive feedback on any cult. No surprise there.
The seed was a cult. Every cult has "positive" goals and paths one can take mixed in with the love bombing and behavior modification techniques. Big deal. The seed didn't invent "honesty, love and awareness" but instead bastardized these terms into something barely recogizing their true intended meaning.
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I think it is important here to point out that John U and John Ft Pierce are two different people.
Great thread! I sure wish John U would come back and talk some more.
I have already learned some things and would like some more dialogue here.
John, your participation here cannot be easy, but please believe me when I tell you it is greatly appreciated by me and everyone else.
Thank you again.
Please find the time and patience to give us some participation and understand that we all wil not agree or get on a staff worship parade here...but nevertheless I am excited as hell at what you can contribute to the people that want and need answers.
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The anonymous poster who mistook me (John_FtPierce) for John
Underwood, does have a very important point that I would like to
elaborate on.
... AA NEVER locks you up involuntarily, "come down on you" by your
"peers" and makes you publicly confess to your crimes and sins and ...
Yes, I know a lot about AA, in later life I spent 6 years there too.
Voluntarily. No one made me, I went myself, sought out a meeting and
went.
While AA and NA (narcotics anonymous) puts up with some amount of
people being there due to court orders, I would say that they don't
particularly like it. In my time with AA, people who were there from
the courts never lasted.
The main reason for going to AA is that one has reached their "own
personal low" point in life. I would say that the belief within AA is
that you can not help someone until they reach that point.
I can remember people coming to AA, not having reached that point,
dropping out, and years later returning, to become life long strong
individuals. I remember my "sponsor" talking to me about someone who
had dropped out. Saying, that it was o.k., that they now know whats
at AA and that if they ever really need it, they know AA is there. I
think that is true of the court ordered people too. They come in, see
whats there, drop out. And if they make it in life, great, otherwise
AA is there.
If I had a time machine, and could go back and changed one thing about
the seed, it would be this: people should have only have been there
*voluntarily*. Not forced for any reason, parents, courts, whatever.
I think that the seed in the very earliest of day was like that.
Maybe my experience there was positive because I sensed this. After
being there for a short while, the idea of being forced to do anything
was not part of it for me. I was happy to be there. I still don't
understand myself on this though. I don't think I ever have hit "my
own personal low". I certainly wasn't close to it when I went to the
seed. And later, when I went to AA, I don't think is was even close
then either. I was low then, but not that low. The fact that I don't
have to get that low to know, I attribute to the seed.
Maybe I just see a better life due to my time in the seed. I don't
consciously use the principles, the steps, the moral inventories, any
more. Its more just a part of me now. I do spend a lot of time
thinking about myself, and others. Trying to understand. A guess
that could be construed as a moral inventory, whatever.
I love life these days. Even the bad parts. I don't feel that I've
been to a gulag, brainwashed, or anything else.
I'm one of the freest thinkers I know. Not bound by any of the usual
limitations: religion, prejudice, social pressures. I look anyway I
want, dress anyway I want, keep any friends I want, do anything I want
to.
I don't feel that drugs or drinking is necessarily the problem.
Sometimes they are a symptom, but not the problem. Like my old AA
sponsor would say: "Alcoholism is not a disease of the mind but a
dis-ease of the mind. If you are not at ease with yourself, you
drink." Or smoke dope until you can't feel, or do harder stuff until
you can't feel. I focus on this, not the drugs or alcohol.
Could it be that many of the people who are anti-seed want to do their
drugs? I say, go ahead, do your drugs, drink. If you are at ease
with yourself, it won't be a problem. If you are not at ease, it
probably will become a problem. Drugs and alcohol are not the
problem. Its this other thing, the dis-ease, that is the problem.
I personally think that pot should be legalized. Probably a lot of
other drugs too. I withhold judgment on some, very additive, drugs
like cocaine/crack and crank. These really are just too dangerous.
Heroin is bad news too. I volunteered for many years in soup
kitchens, keeping my finger on the pulse of the street. I saw just
too much badness from crack. Crank is just now starting to hit my
area, but the initial reports from the street are real bad.
And again I would like to apologize to anyone who feels hurt from the
seed. But, please, please, keep posting your feelings and
experiences.
-- John
[ This Message was edited by: John_FtPierce on 2005-08-06 19:30 ]
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On 2005-08-06 18:55:00, John_FtPierce wrote:
If I had a time machine, and could changed one thing about the
seed, it would be this: people should have only have been there
*voluntarily*. Not forced for any reason,
Amen to that one John Ft Pierce!
Hey, were you ever on staff?
If so, please start another thread and tell us about it.
-
John, thanks, I deeply appreciate that. I also want to pile on in thanking and welcoming John U. and to reiterate that I know Art and all the staff's intentions were good. So were those of all the parents, including my own. If anybody's looking for a cackling bad guy somewhere at the root of this, wringing his hands and gloating, you'll never find him, he doesn't exist. It's all about good intentions gone awry.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of it's victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busy-bodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those that torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."--
C.S. Lewis, God In The Dock
The internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around it.
--John Gilmour
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On 2005-08-06 19:22:00, Antigen wrote:
... and to reiterate that I know Art and all the staff's intentions were good. So were those of all the parents, including my own. If anybody's looking for a cackling bad guy somewhere at the root of this, wringing his hands and gloating, you'll never find him, he doesn't exist. It's all about good intentions gone awry.
And Amen to this Antigen!
I don't think any of us are God, we are all falable people. I don't think the seed was perfict. There is no way it could be, it was created by people for people. Yes, there were problems. But I try to look past these human failings.
GregFL, no, I was never staff. Way too young then.
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Could it be that many of the people who are anti-seed want to do their
drugs?
I can only speak for myself and the answer is a resounding NO.
My father and I have had a very difficult relationsip since the seed, but one thing he did teach me was if something causes you more harm than pleasure, don't do it.
Pot stresses me out and makes me paranoid. I haven't touched anything else for over 20 years and don't intend to.
If marijuana was a positive thing in my life I would do it. It is not and I have no interest in smoking a joint and obsessing over my shortcomings for three hours. It makes me feel bad..ie: it causes me more pain than pleasure.
Nowadays a glass of white wine (red was preferred but it stains your teeth) occasionaly is about all I do. I don't get drunk. I don't get high.
Drugs have NOTHING to do with my observations about my childhood seed experience,and in fact since we have gone there I will make this observation...the vast majority of you "the seed saved my life" people have spent your lives battling acohol or drug addiction/compulsion issues. IF the seed saved your life, why did you do the coke and heroin later in life? Why did you need commitment to other rehabs...why did your life desinegrate around a substance abuse problem?
I know your answer already about setting the groundwork for your later recovery..but I call a big BULLSHIT on it.
Sorry....just calling it as I see it.
-
GregFL,
Please re-read my earlier post. I state that, no, the seed did not save my
life. I am not, nor ever have been, much of a drug or alcohol user at
any time in my life. Before the seed, after the seed. Before going
to AA after going to AA. Or now.
I remember being in AA, it really was somewhat embarrassing. I made a
joke about my being there: Its like going to weight watchers when your
are really only 5 pounds over weight. Being there, in AA was amazing.
To see people who had absolutely destroyed their whole lives with
alcohol. To see them put it back together. And me, being there, for
whatever little reason. Really, I think I was lonely. AA people
understand seed people.
I truly think I would *not* have a drug or alcohol problem with out
the seed or AA. I still maintain that I just wanted a better life. I
don't even like to use the word "recovery". Recovery from what?
Funny, today, I drink a little, and one of my best friends is AA. He
knows me, my whole history, we talk some times. I hang out with the
AA people. They know I drink a little. No biggy. Just good people,
real good people. I've got another friend, severely alcoholic. I've
talked to him about things. He's content the way he is. I'm a little
sorry for him, but not too much of a biggy either.
I've got another friend, he's Muslim. Doesn't drink or anything. But
he is very unhappy, not at ease with life at all. Reminds me of the
"dry drunk" people talk about.
Its not about the drugs or alcohol, its that other thing, the dis-ease
with life.
-- John
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Wow! Thanks for giving me the heads up on your update, John. Glad I didn't miss this.
On 2005-08-06 18:55:00, John_FtPierce wrote:
Could it be that many of the people who are anti-seed want to do their
drugs? I say, go ahead, do your drugs, drink. If you are at ease
with yourself, it won't be a problem. If you are not at ease, it
probably will become a problem. Drugs and alcohol are not the
problem. Its this other thing, the dis-ease, that is the problem.
I personally think that pot should be legalized. Probably a lot of
other drugs too. I withhold judgment on some, very additive, drugs
like cocaine/crack and crank. These really are just too dangerous.
Heroin is bad news too. I volunteered for many years in soup
kitchens, keeping my finger on the pulse of the street. I saw just
too much badness from crack. Crank is just now starting to hit my
area, but the initial reports from the street are real bad.
Well, I have to agree w/ both you and Greg on this. Though I'm no tea totaler, and I know that many pro-program ppl (including XA devotees) take that as prima facia evidence that everything I say or do is a manifestation of my progressive, fatal disease, that really has nothing to do w/ my recollections or opinions of the program.
I've spent a good many years now looking into the entire troubled parent industry. And I've found it very enlightening. There are obvious and quite objective differences among the programs. But there are certain constants as well. So take away the warehouse, replace it w/ the Utah desert. Eliminate the AA dogma and replace it w/ Mormon dogma. Give the staff Earth names and pretend it's all based in native American mythology; whatever, change and rearrange the window dressing any way you like, then look at the similarities that remain.
In a nutshell, Lifton and Singer's criteria for thought reform and large group awareness type regimens accurately describe those similarities. That would be true even if I were three sheets to the wind.
I also think that pot should never have been prohibited in the first place. Frankly, I don't think any drug should be criminally prohibited. But not because I think drugs are good and people should do more of them. To the contrary, I think all drugs are potentially harmful. And there's just no better way than criminal prohibition to make them more dangerous, more harmful, more accessible to children or more profitable to criminals and terrorists. I can almost say that I agree w/ everything Howard Woodridge has ever said on the topic. See http://leap.cc/ (http://leap.cc/) (that's Law Enforcement Against Prohibition)
I do wish people would be more careful about legal drugs, too. We're now just starting to see the long term effects of benzos on an aging population and we have NO clue what to expect or how best to manage the fallout. But so damned many people go through life believing that, if some stranger w/ a license gave them permission to consume ungodly daily doses of psychotropics, why then it must be safe or they wouldn't be allowed to do it.
That's SO wrong! Fact is, the only distinction between legal pharma drugs and illegal or strictly controled drugs (like alcohol and tobacco, which we treat like fire arms) is that the illegal ones cannot be patented. Methamphetamine is legal, provided you have a Rx. Cannabis is not, unless you live in a free country who's national character and prosperity allow them to tell the US to fuck off.
I believe that when I die I shall rot, and nothing of my ego will survive. I am not young, and I love life. But I should scorn to shiver with terror at the thought of annihilation. Happiness is none the less true happiness because it must come to an end, nor do thought and love lose their value because they are not everlasting.
--Bertrand Russell, British philosopher, educator, mathemetician, and social critic
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;
-
btw, here's a better link on Howard
http://leap.cc/howard/ (http://leap.cc/howard/)You know, if Mama Cass Elliot would have shared that damn sandwich
with Karen Carpenter, they would both still be alive today!!!!!!!
--chongo
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Its not about the drugs or alcohol, its that other thing, the dis-ease
with life.
Well...it certainly can be when your life spirals out of control around a substance abuse problem
But I agree..coming to peace and finding "ease" or peace in your life is the trick. Learning what makes you happy and then setting out to do it is part of the trick...as is learning what ails you and avoiding it.
Life can be so good or so painfull. The trick is to go to the good and avoid the bad.
imo....
-
<
The seed was a cult. Every cult has "positive" goals and paths one can take mixed in with the love bombing and behavior modification techniques. Big deal. The seed didn't invent "honesty, love and awareness" but instead bastardized these terms into something barely recogizing their true intended meaning.
"
Hey, whoever you are, I could not agree more.
I guess there will always be a great divide on the question of the true value of that program - program being the operative word.
-
John Underwood,YOU ROCK! Always did and still do!
:nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: ::kiss::
-
I note the genuflecting of the above-post with a wicked snicker. :lol:
-
Mr. Underwood:
YOU WROTE: The inability (or unwillingness) to separate personalities and methodology from what The Seed offered was never a problem for me, I was lucky I guess. I got it from day one when I was still in the front row with the cotton in my mouth.
I REPLY: I read your comment here and I wonder whether you really got it or you just succumbed to the pressure and ate up the dogma much more quickly than the arrogant, self-centered, disrespectful, inconsiderate children who made up the majority of the seed?s population. I think perhaps it?s the latter.
YOU WROTE: I am not omnipotent, nor was anyone I worked with. Despite popular belief, we did not know everything that occurred away from The Seed.
I REPLY: I?m not so sure you know the meaning of the words you use and it makes a great difference. Don?t you mean ?omniscient? ? as in knowing what you were doing? As in knowing that you were charged with the responsibility for the safekeeping of hundreds of children and teenagers? As in knowing, from your own personal experience, that perhaps the seed was not all goodness and light?
YOU WROTE: Personally, I had no problem coming down on those whose disruptive personalities were defined by arrogance, self-centeredness, lack of respect and consideration of others. I had a very low tolerance for self-indulgent, immature, unnecessary and inappropriate behavior. That hasn?t changed. Stupidity always carries a consequence.
I REPLY: I too, see that nothing much has changed. Did it ever occur to you that perhaps the program you espoused, in some cases, was wrong and that is why people responded with what you claim was ?stupid? behavior? That perhaps you were simply a cog in the money-wheel machine of a drug rehab business and it was really only about the money? Could you have been so blinded by a dogma you needed to believe in that you could not to see it? So blind and stupid that you would not or could not to see that some of the children there were not addicted to anything? Yes, John, stupidity does have consequences, doesn?t it? I think you can read these message boards here and see the consequences of what some independent professionals in the psychiatric and medical field would deem the seed?s stupid behavior.
YOU WROTE: I wrote earlier of my initial disdain so I will close by commenting on the characterizations used by some to relate The Seed experience.
I REPLY: I see now, again by your own choice of words, this time the word ?disdain,? that you really do believe that you are above it all. Then and now. But I?ll venture to guess it?s a protection mechanism that works well for you. But it?s old, so loose it and really embrace the self-honesty you claim to live by.
Mr. Underwood, even acknowledging that some say you did good work at the seed, I am glad that I did not listen to you. My internal sense of danger operated well and I was able to protect myself from you and the others like you. It would have been a pity to have wasted my life following the premises of one who is so undoubtedly and obviously single-sighted and yes, to use your lexicon, stupid. You and the others at the seed who terrorized members with the likes of your derisive mumbo-jumbo were the boogie men in my closet. But the really great thing about your appearance here is that your comments turned on the light and KAPOW!! No more boogie men. How freaking cool is that?
You are just a regular guy, just as happy, sad and full of shit as rest of us - struggling to get by and stretching to embrace the entirety of our lives, the good and bad.
Have a nice life, John Underwood. Thanks for putting yourself out there. You never knew me and we never had the pleasure of a personal introduction. We may always disagree in principle but you have helped me to close the door on a chapter of my life that has long needed closing.
-
John Underwood,
Thanks for caring ! It made a difference for me.
TRUCKER
-
I also would like to express my gratitude to John for posting his frame of reference on the Seed. John was one of the many staff members that I initially feared, grew to understand, to admire and respect. John, you were such a huge part of my "getting straight", getting honest, growing up and eventually out & beyond....Thank You... I am so appreciateive that I am able to after all these years say that; Thank You...
Even during my times of additional "research" on addiction, I never really abandoned the things that we learned at the Seed, honesty especially self-honesty is paramount. When I lost the ability to see myself as others saw me is during the times when I was truly lost...
The experiences that I remember the strongest at the Seed were the ones that were based in love, sharing & caring, kindness becomes more meaningful as you get older. The feeling of electricity during the open meetings, the fantastic talents so many of us shared and displyed during the Holiday parties. I have reestablished a number of contacts with people who were in the program at the same time I was and we have shared our stories our tales of triumph, successes, failures, sadness, and pictures. Pictures of young fresh-faced kids with hope and light shining in their eyes, pictures of laughter, comaradarie, things that were real and can't be conned or faked.
Alot of hoopla seems to be made over the names and numbers that come up of seedlings or ex- who came to a bad end, suicide, overdose, etc... but look at the number of kids who went thru the program, I talked with Greg about it and we thought is was probably 4-5,000 kids in the St Pete area alone and then the ten to twelve names come to mind that have died or killed themselves. That is incredibly small percentage of people, I would even say that it is nowhere near the percentages found in society at large. One thing I have to remember is that most of us who went into the program where damaged at worst or had issues of varying degrees / subjects at best. I am not surprised at all by the stories of how our seedlings lives have played out, I look at my own... 15 jobs over the last 25 years, 2 marriages, one quick, one with kids & messy, then later in life (30's) finding myself drawn back to AA, God, the things that help center my life again.
Sound familiar? It's called life...you either grab it or it grabs you.
And I am thankful to the Seed and in part to John Underwood that in a very large way they helped me overcome & get past that self destructive period in my young life and managed to keep me straight & sober until I had a little more life experience behind me, and could possibly make different decisions about my actions / behaviors.
"The program", your program, my program, beleive me in some way or another everyone is working their program, the important thing is to get up everyday and do it... Embrace here & now, focus on the positive, don't dwell on the past in a negative or self-pitying way, there is not a thing we can change about it.
Thanks again John for your courage, your honesty, your caring, your love, 32 years ago and now. Oh & by the way you still sound like a really cool dude.
Chris Lewis
Seed 1973 -75
AA 1991 -
-
http://www.geocities.com/strugglingturk ... asses.html (http://www.geocities.com/strugglingturkeys/dumbasses.html)
-
Sweet, how biting, sardonic & cool
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On 2005-08-08 17:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
I talked with Greg about it and we thought is was probably 4-5,000 kids in the St Pete area alone and then the ten to twelve names come to mind that have died or killed themselves. That is incredibly small percentage of people,
Assuming we know about all of them and are estimating the total # of seedlings somewhere in the right ballpark, that's roughly 20 times the averate for the area. Here's one source:
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:hm ... 0target=nw (http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:hmGbXgmVJW4J:www.sprc.org/statepages/factsheets/fl_datasheet.pdf+suicide+rates+florida&hl=en%20target=nw)
It comes down to about the same thing no matter which agency or data set you reference.
We ought to be grateful that our government monopoly schools are such a failure. If today's 18 year olds could do arithmetic, they'd be out buying enough rope to hang everybody over 40.
--Alan Handleman on Social Security
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;
-
On 2005-08-08 17:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
One thing I have to remember is that most of us who went into the program where damaged at worst or had issues of varying degrees / subjects at best. I am not surprised at all by the stories of how our seedlings lives have played out, I look at my own... 15 jobs over the last 25 years, 2 marriages, one quick, one with kids & messy, then later in life (30's) finding myself drawn back to AA, God, the things that help center my life again.
Sound familiar? It's called life...you either grab it or it grabs you.
Yes, that sounds very familiar. Sounds like half my family and a whole lot of other program vets, grateful or not.
Me? I stumbled at first. Thought I was in love, had a baby then realized that the wonderful, thoughtful, compassionate person I was in love with didn't exist in that crack head's body. So I left, got a job, took on a roomate, eventually met my life mate, married, two more kids.
I must admit that it took me a couple of years to realize that constant confrontation, suspicion and accusaion was no way to be a wife. But I did rid myself of that vestige of Program behavior and thinking as soon as I realized what I was doing. Thank God my husband is a patient and understanding man. Most men would not have put up w/ that lunacy for long.
No divorces, no therapy, no XA, no despondancy. Every day, I'm still just glad to be free and fiercely protective of my kids' freedom of mind.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.
-- Albert Einstein
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Funny you would say that. I spent about 10 years thinking confronting people that were "full of shit" was a good thing and often got in people's faces over little to nothing.
Also, For many years I was inapropriately "open and honest" with people who hadn't earned the right to know intimate knowledge about me. Very often this backfired in awefully painfull ways.
I thought these behaviors were actually a socially acceptable and productive way to behave in the real world.
They are not. I had a very hard time attracting and keeping friends and partners until I figured this out.
Another chapter of...
"seed gifts I could have lived without".
-
------------------------------------
Quoted by John Underwood:
" The inability (or unwillingness) to separate personalities and methodology from what The Seed offered was never a problem for me, I was lucky I guess."
-------------------------------------
The stated ideals of the Seed were certainly laudable. Nearly every major world religion embraces them to an extent. In reality, means / methodology cannot be separated from ends / ideals. The spanish conquistadors wanted to make sure that the american indian babies they found didn't go to hell. A very good intention and laudable ideal. They went about assuring this end by first baptizing the infants into the christian faith and then promptly bashing their heads against a rock. Thus assuring they would have no chance to fall into sin. The same high ideals were present as the inquisition used torture to save the souls of heretics. The ideal of marxist communism was a classless society where no one would starve or want. To achieve this ideal, millions were imprisoned and butchered.
Last week CNN had a segment on a church that has started a group similar in many ways to the seed. The purpose of this group is to convert gay teens into straight teens. Parents are forcing their children into this group. It uses peer-pressure and marathon meetings to make the kids straight. They interviewed some of the kids who spoke highly of the program and claimed they only chose to be gay because of the attention it gained them. Now, they were straight and happy. They also spoke of keeping a "moral inventory".The same methodology used by the seed can be applied to most anything, good or bad. You could coerce and pressure kids into accepting any belief system.
When we make any ideal into an absolute and conclude the means justify the ends, the most horrific consequences usually follow. Art and the seed staff, including yourself, made the ideal of getting kids off drugs and changing attitudes into an absolute. Any technique seemed justified to achieve the desired goal. It is precisely the methodology used by the seed and other peer-pressure behaviour modification programs that I find repugnant...not the stated ideals of honesty, faith, etc. By whatever pretty name we choose to call it, it is coercive thought control.
----------------------------------------
Quote: "We thought it was conceived and based in conceit, ...we thought it was dangerous!"
----------------------------------------
Funny how you can easily see this in other, nearly identical programs. The Seed too was conceived in this basic conceit that Art and his partners knew what was best for kids. What made Straight dangerous is the same thing that made the Seed dangerous. The use of powerful thought-control techniques on adolescents to achieve a desired personality modification.
------------------------------------------
Quote: "Those who use this site solely to spout venom for its own sake, and thrive on the venom of others, probably should stop here."><"comparing the experience to Korean brainwashing facilities or gulags, speaks volumes about who you are, and is reflective of the spoiled, self-indulgent mind set you still carry, and your ridiculously exaggerated sense of self-importance"
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You seem to be spouting a little venom of your own here. The comparison to gulags and korean brainwashing has nothing to do with the physical conditions of the seed as compared to those places. You've missed the point entirely. Again, it is the use of coercive mind-control and behaviour modification that is common to these. The use of re-education camps in communist countries amounts to the same thing. The purpose is to modify the indiviuals thinking and behaviour in order to bring it inline with the ideal. Whether this ideal is communist propaganda or Art's idea of what a straight person should be is irrelevant. As far as a self-indulgent mindset goes...I, for one do not ride around in a chaffeured limo or own any yachts.
Like others here, you have criticisms of Art
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quote:"his oft embarrassing showboating, sometimes bordering on buffoonery,"
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and the later Seed too. I would hope you would also find fault with the later practice of staff members determining marriage partners and whether a woman should abort or not. Or the blatantly sexist idea that women should sew and cook while men should pursue carpentry or mechanical work.
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quote:" gratitude and humility, nurtured to fruition with unwavering, rigorous self-honesty, that hopefully lead to greater self awareness, was the order of business at The Seed to me."
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The unwavering self-honesty was applied well to our past before we entered the program. Sometimes to the point of exageration of our bad qualities and ignoring of any redeeming qualities. However, this honesty wavered considerably when it came to examining the program itself. Real honesty may well have revealed that we were substituting straight images for druggie images, one type of conditioning for another. We went from conforming to one group to conforming to another. The pressure to conform to the seed's dress code, haircuts, lingo and beliefs (aura's, astrology, destiny, etc.) was stronger than that exerted by any supposed druggie culture. Perhaps honesty would have revealed that Art often suffered from an inflated ego himself. And that real self-awareness can not be the product of coercion or conditioning of any sort, however high the ideals.
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quote:"Nevertheless, I do congratulate Greg and Ginger for providing a forum that allows all opinions to be heard."
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Yes. It's wonderful isnt' it? Here, all sides can be discussed. Dissenting views are welcome. Unfortunately, the Seed didn't allow any of that. I have no axe to grind with you personally. To one extent or another we were all both victims and perpetrators. I took in newcomers, related in group and did my part of the brainwashing too. You maintain that those on this website somehow didn't 'get it'. An alternative explanation might be that we 'got it' and chose to get rid of it.
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Do you suppose we will hear back from John Underwood? I'd be surprised, but it would be good if he "manned-up" and replied.
It won't make a difference in my life, but it would be interesting to see if he responds to challeges as well as the thank yous and boot kissing.
I'm glad that we were able to have some closure with the man, such as it was. One down, several to go.
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Marshall....
I would gladly sign my name to your post. It was well thought out, non abrasive, on topic, on point, and clearly stated facts about the experience that get lost in all the Testimonial type post.
Great job.
:tup:
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Ditto. Marshall's the real grown up around here.
If you want to get together in any exclusive situation and have people love you, fine- but to hang all this desperate sociology on the idea of The Cloud-Guy who has The Big Book, who knows if you've been bad or good- and CARES about any of it- to hang it all on that, folks, is the chimpanzee part of the brain working.
--Frank Zappa, American musician
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Absolutely. Well said.
I do wish John would respond. I would bet he won't. I'm glad Ginger and Greg had a chance to speak one-on-one with him, and have some dialog with him. But in my experience, those who have fixed ideas reject contrary views.
Maybe someday, he'll be back. And wouldn't if be great to hear from some others!
By the way, I know I tend to take a middle of the road path. Wasn't it Art who used to say, if you walk in the middle of the road you'll get run over? Perhaps that's true, but I reject extremes and embrace the middle.
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On 2005-08-09 17:29:00, cleveland wrote:
wish John would respond. I would bet he won't. I'm glad Ginger and Greg had a chance to speak one-on-one with him
several things John said that was at once funny and very telling...we were discussing Art and his "love" of participation sports and he said the following things that had me laughing and thinking...
"Art Always batted 1000 when we played softball."
"I got yelled at by Art for hitting Home runs behind sr 84."
in Addition, he acknowledged that people would be come down on if they thru art out at base or struck him out.
I just find this so fucking funny.....Don't ask me why...Im laughing as I type it.
:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
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I think, like a lot of 'great men,' Art had a bit of a Napoleon complex. He always had to win, even if the victory was fake. That robbed me of a lot of respect for him.
Perhaps 'falsity' was the first and most important rule!
(...is that a word?)
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http://www.who.int/mental_health/preven ... erates/en/ (http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/suiciderates/en/)
..."Assuming we know about all of them and are estimating the total # of seedlings somewhere in the right ballpark, that's roughly 20 times the averate for the area. Here's one source..."
Ginger-
I agree that there is huge variation in what data is used, just a quick google of the world health organization, Suicide Rates (per 100,000), by country, year, and gender. Now granted the data is 6 years old (1999) but extrapolating from reported rates based on 100,000 down to a population of 5,000 the rate for suicide (I would not even know where to look for "overdose" data) the figures should be 44 males & 10 females. I still think the rate among us "seedling" seems low, even given the fact that some may have been suicidal before they came into the program (physical / chemical causes) and may have had this pre-disposition even after...
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we have no rate. There are no figures to crunch. All we have is anecedotal information.
But believing the hype thrown at us in the seed, all of us graduates should be running the country right now and we should be millions strong.
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you screwed up the math anyway.
the combined rate for the year questioned would be 21.7 suicides for 100,000 people, or routhly 1 per 5000. Assuming the rate constant for 35 years ( a hugely inaccurate assumption.. evidence suggest the number has risen dramatically especially in the elderly), that would be an acceptable range of 35 suicides per 5000 of the GENERAL POPULATION. Now, exlude all persons under 12 and over 21 at the time of the seed, and all people born since...and you get an idea of how skewed your figures are. For example, the suicide rate per percentage of over 65 is roughly 20% of the total.
Now figure you are only counting suicides you KNOW OF from seedlings from St Pete. Have you reviewed all deaths from all people that attended?
This is a statisical math formula that no one has even approached coming to any conclusion on, but the anecedotal evidence suggest the rates are HIGH, not LOW.
as an example, the suicide rate for kids 10-19 in 1980 was roughly 9 per 200,000, or rougly 1/4 per 5000, or about 8 per 5000 in 35 years, but This isn't even the way the statistic works because the stat changes as you get older and people drop out due to death from natural causes.
A statistician would need to be hired in order to figure this out properly.
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On 2005-08-09 11:09:00, GregFL wrote:
"Funny you would say that. I spent about 10 years thinking confronting people that were "full of shit" was a good thing and often got in people's faces over little to nothing.
Also, For many years I was inapropriately "open and honest" with people who hadn't earned the right to know intimate knowledge about me. Very often this backfired in awefully painfull ways.
I thought these behaviors were actually a socially acceptable and productive way to behave in the real world.
They are not. I had a very hard time attracting and keeping friends and partners until I figured this out.
Another chapter of...
"seed gifts I could have lived without".
Funny, I've had an entirely different experience; when appropriate, I STILL confront those when I think they are "full of shit" and they end up understanding and respecting me OR, they stay out of my space. I kinda like surrounding myself w/ people who are committed to their values and passions! :nworthy:
However, DO enjoy your trip Greg!
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One thing that stikes me over and over again is that we seed people really have a skewed sense of personal boundaries. We either tell WAY TOO much or we EXCLUDE way too much. I found no real peace trying to use these seed tools.
On the one had, some folk still feel some dying need to confront others - when THEY deem it appropriate, persons they think are "full of shit". Personally, I really hate that statement - it's so demeaning to the recipient and so telling on the speaker.
But do you guys notice how that mentality is a one way street - that it's one person who is making the determination and value judgements about the worth of another person? Granted, I'm not present there so I have no information about why someone would feel the need to use such viscious tools.
I just don't think we, as human beings, have the right to do that to each other unless some important action on the part of the "full of shit" person has directly impacted our lives. And I mean a real impact that has the potential to significantly change the course of one's life.
What that confrontational behavior ends up doing is alienating people - people who might have otherwise, but for my shortsightedness, judgment and emotional immaturity, brought me a smidge of understanding or compassion or some other good things.
That fanatical confrontation/exclusion behavior allows someone to continue living in a very protected world without letting in any new ideas. There's no strain whatsoever to using this tool. I liken it to a "scorched-earth" approach - the napalm of personal, business and acquaintance realtions.
I don't view that as strenght so much as I do weakness, immmaturity or insecurity in one's belief system - to use some seed words. I mean, what's to learn? Where is the growth if everyone you surround yourself with thinks like you do?
I've been accused of being the stick-weilding zen master on this forum (and rightly so) and I learned from that - I had to stretch myself to look serously at another's point of view and step outside myself. It was a good and humbling lesson.
I value my friendships, but I also value the challenges of having to learn about new people, new cultures, and other belief systems that challenge my views. It's okay for people to be different.
Under the seed approach, the only newness that gets in is a formely unknown person who has the same values and passions as oneself. Where's the greatness or challenge in that? It kept me in a very rigid and closed life allthese years.
[ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-08-11 06:18 ]
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great post stripe! I agree with your sentiments about confronting people and the fallout and many other points you made.
You too Robin..great post. Glad to see you participaing.
One thing Robin..you didn't practice discretion talking about yourself around seedlings. That is a premise you just haven't thought thru.
I can just imagine the scenario.
libby: Robin...stand up! What is been going on around your house between you and your mother (hands flapping and finger snapping behind Robin).
Robin: Well Libby, I would tell you, but you haven't earned the right to know such intimate details about my personal life and there are people in this group I would rather not share that information with.
hehehe....just imagine. :grin: :grin:
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this is a dear john letter(ha ha)
i remember you. you were the heaviest, coolest junkie of all in the seed. all the little kids were terrorized by your disdainful, glazed and red-eyed glaring. i remember listening to you feeling in my heart that you were a natural liar and a soulless prick. i asked you how you were doing once, being friendly and to see what you would say and you gave your best imitation of a human response. once when you walked by after an especially boring and programmed "rap" i flicked something on your thigh pantleg. it was an especially large lugee coughed up by me and secretly saved by me to deposit on you.i was on the outside of the little row so i had a great shot. the reason you didn't notice is because your little barker-brown nose was turned up to the sheeple so intent on falling in line.i spit on you then and i would gladly do so now. you were a mind controlled sap delivering program trauma to innocent teenagers with asleep parents. your kind has always been good for agency work and the coolest part of your miserable existence is that you haven't learned a damn thing since then. you miscreants always harped on peoples'awareness but ironically, as it turns out, you are STILL the least aware of all.don't you realize yet that the seed and all programs like it were psyops funded by your benevolent lizard government? haven't you read this forum for the info supplied by the folks who woke up from their programming? no? then you deserve to remain asleep.willful narcolepsy.
once a junkie always a junkie.
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Oh my! :rofl:
If they can get you to ask the wrong questions they don't have to worry about the answers
--Thomas Pynchon, Gravity's Rainbow (Proverbs for Paranoids)
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WOW JUST GOT CURIOUS ON MY SEED ANNIVERSARY. wHEN DID THE PROGRAM CLOSE? I attended the Seed in Cleveland. I remember Bob as a compassionate staff member. What a flood of memories and feelings this site brought back. I have often said I thank God for the Seed and I thank God I grew out of it.
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Oh My! ::bigsmilebounce::
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does any one know in what publication and by what reporter can we read about fuelaw?s beatings?
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As Wallter noted in another thread, those who know are not talking, those who talk don't know. Guess you'll just have to wait, huh?
Who is this, anyway?War is God?s way of teaching Americans geography.
--Ambrose Bierce (died 1914)
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I was there in '73. Signed myself in. Good move. A part of The Seed will always be with me. Self-reliance, self-honesty. Many good things that were hard to learn.
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I agree. Until I went into The Seed, I didn't know who I was. Certainly didn't like myself. It was scary. Living with people I didn't know, sitting in the group from 10 to 10. But PLEASE! There were no beatings, get real! And the food, yeah, sometimes it was an orange, koolaid and a baloney sandwich, THAT WAS BECAUSE THE PARENTS WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR DONATING FOOD FOR ONE MEAL. I think - per month. Not because of abuse. I remember special meals donated by parents from McDonalds, and Easter dinner. How do you think a program like the Seed existed? Donations and self-sufficiency.
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Dude, you have no idea. The parents paid, and they donated money, food, fundraising and recruiting. All that on top of millions in Federal funding. At the end of the day, Art, Shelly, Lybbi and a few others are millionaires.
Are you saying these people are lying about the physical abuse? Think Frank made it all up? I don't. I cannot believe in the immortality of the soul.... No, all this talk of an existence for us, as individuals, beyond the grave is wrong. It is born of our tenacity of life -- our desire to go on living -- our dread of coming to an end.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor
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Let me see if I got this straight, the people who said they were abused are making it all up. And the reason they would make this stuff up is?
Forget the physical abuse. What about the mental torture?
The Seed was already receiving federal grant money in 1972. Wake up and smell the coffee.
Finally, are we saying that a good place to find yourself is in the middle of a cult?
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we have proof that lybbi made millions from the seed?
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We have extremely credible testimony that many people fall for all their cryin poor mouth, all the while Art's living in a mansion, being chauffeured around in a stretch limo. And all the while Seedlings kept working for these self rightious hypocrites for free for years.
I understand some of the more legal minds among us have tracked significant assets to Lybbi (you?) How'd that happen? Didn't she (you?) ditch the family fortune for a life of pieous service to those Seedlings who mowed the lawns, washed the cars, etc?
Nothing of value to the individual happens by coercion.
--Plato
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He doesn't live in a mansion. That house was on loan for a few years. Someone donated the limo. He had been shot at a few times, the limo looked like it could be useful. It was sold about a year later. Maybe Lybbi's husband knew how to make money, lot of people do.
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Really? The one in Venician Isles? Cause that was deeded to Art last time I checked a couple of years ago.
Point is, in the early days there were millions coming in and nothing going out. Only expenses were the building, slave wages for staff and, possibly, some insurance. Though I wouldn't put it past them at all to just neglect to acquire necessary insurance just like they never thought much of licensing or obeying laws against false imprisonment, etc.
In the later days, there was all that free labour people talk about. Still no real expenses. But all this money floating around among the inner circle.
Is this Bob. btw? And did you ever call your sister?All contemporary religions and churches, all and every kind of religious organization, Marxism has always viewed as organs of bourgeois reaction, serving as a defense of exploitation and the doping of the working-classes.
--Nikolai Lenin, Russian revolutionary
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really? That is so interesting. Tell us more...
What is the current value of the house Art lives in? How did he obtain it?
How does one obtain millions of dollars worth of property on a husband and wife seed staff income? Were seedlings paying rent and/or maintaining these properties?
Was Art barker a partner in any of this?
Wasn't the seed a "non profit Corporation"?
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Site Address
Property Owner BARKER,ART & SHELLY
Mailing Address 2845 NE 9 ST UNIT 1004 FT LAUDERDALE FL 33304
ID # 5042 01 AP 0360
Millage 0332
Use 04
Legal Description LE CLUB INTERNATIONAL CONDO UNIT 1004
Property Assessment Values
Year Land Building Land Value AG Total Tax
Current $ 65,770 $ 591,970 $ 657,740
2004 $ 59,790 $ 538,150 $ 597,940 $14,246.31
2003 $ 56,950 $ 512,530 $ 569,480 $13,975.46
Save Our
Home Value Exemptions
Type Widow(er)'s/Veteran's/Disability Homestead Non-Exempt
$ 615,870 $ 25,000 $ 590,870
Sales History
Date Type Price Book Page
11/03 WD $ 825,000 36485 48
12/02 SWD $ 700,000 34225 210
Land Calculations
Price Factor Type
Adj. Bldg. S.F.
Special Assessments
Fire Garbage Light Drainage Improvement Safe
03
R
1
Please Note: Assessed values shown are NOT certified values and are
subject to change before final certification for ad valorem tax purposes.
From: http://www.bcpa.net/ (http://www.bcpa.net/)
And here's the book page for the transaction:
http://fornits.com/anonanon/theseed/bar ... tydeed.pdf (http://fornits.com/anonanon/theseed/barkerwarrantydeed.pdf)
Gee, I wonder who United Investments, The Title Company and Morgan Olsen and Olsen are? I wonder if that Morgan is any kin to the one after which the Morgan Yacht Building was named? So many questions, so few anwers...
Not bad for a washed up Vaudville comic who's been crying poor mouth for a living for the past 3 decades, eh?
I still think he ought to cut a check right now to everyone who ever mowed his lawn, washed his car, cleaned his house, guarded his properties or provided any other free service to him and his goons under the false pretense of giving to a worthy charity.
Drug War tells us everyone's body is common property
to be managed by the central government for our own
good, even if it kills us. This is Communism!
Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)
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wwwiz.com/issue02/wiz_d02.html
here's a pic of Ginger Warbis
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Wow, that's a really old and not a very good picture. Thanks for the memories. But what does this have to do w/ the price of real estate in Florida?
Forgive, O Lord, my little joke on Thee and I'll forgive Thy great big one on me.
--Robert Frost, American poet
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What's really cute is that our buddy Art continues to pull quite a bit of "income" on a tax free basis.
Did you know that there is a "seed-based" mortgage company that is still in existence today that provides Barker with his retirement money? I'm not sure if it was funded the Senior Holding Inc. One or Senior Holding Two. Right now it's called Smart Mortgage Corporation ( run Ken Novak (pres, asst sec & director) and Scott Barrett (VP, S, T and Director) and Art Barker as a Director)
If I followed this correctly, the company holds mortgages which it then sells/transfers/assigns Art Barker in exchange for a promissory note. Barker then collects the mortgage payments - tax free income to him because money paid to him are note payments on the mortgage. These aren't continous payments - evetually the mortgage is reassigned to another entity or the property is sold altogether. It looks like he gets to collect on one or two mortgages every year. A nice completely tax-free pension, don't you think? It's shady but legal.
And others do it, too. Art and his seed-real estate buddies and seed-lawyers are not the only smart guys. Ya just need a nice nest egg to start with - which I suspect may have been the proceeds from the original 501(c)(3) that was, oh be still my heart, The Seed.
In fact, Art's company is (or was the last time I checked) one of the holders of the mortgage for a new drug rehab in Delray Beach, FL.
If you guys think the seed or its progeny would ever give up the money teat, think again.
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to ginger - no this isnt bob or lybbi.
to stripe - how is it shady to receive payments on a mortgage thru? someone makes a loan, and they make their mortgage payments on that loan? now i wouldnt think thats tax free as i would expect it to be corporate (or personal) income if there is a profit, but hey, i am not an accountant. still i would think this is a perfectly legal behavior. you as an individual can issue loans to people and receive payments on that interest till the loan is paid in full.
greg - not sure about any "mansion" but the house art last lived in that i was aware of was a nice house not certainly not a mansion. however on a price basis would go for a ton of cash these days. we've all seen the real estate boom occur and in ft lauderdale its been significant. i know he received donations of money at some point from private people and i believe used some of that to make the purchase years ago. then the prices went thru the roof some years later.
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Thoughts about John's Underwood?s post.
I am not sure I ever came in contact with you. I have some vague memory that you may have come up to Cleveland just before I graduated in 77.
You said you have little tolerance for immature, disruptive behavior. What constitutes immature behavior for a twelve year old?
I was twelve when I came into the program
You stated an opinion that people here are whining about little things but I suggest that the definition of a big thing that really hurts a person and a small thing that can be shrugged off varies by age and experience. A twelve year old girl who hates herself, don't get along with your parents, and got one to many detentions is going to be much easier to terrorize than a twenty five year old heroin addict who's determined to not go back to prison.
No one had to beat me in order to abuse me. I was an easy target.
I believed everything I was told, from the seed saved me from eminent death to the stated fact that the staff could read my mind. I never felt confident that I was straight enough despite the fact that I vigilantly tried to do everything right- constantly monitoring my every thought, feeling, and action to be sure it fit seed doctrine. Still I lived in constant fear that staff or some seedling, straighter than I, would smell unacceptable thoughts and feelings on me like shit on my shoes, scream at me for hours and start me over.
Nine months of this made me a very anxious girl with virtually no idea how I actually felt about anything.
Does that sound like health to you?
I haven't needed drug treatment as an adult. Thank God cause the little bits of AA the seed used ruined that option for me. I wouldn?t be able to sit next to posters listing the three steps without hyperventilating; the serenity prayer makes my queasy. I struggle to support friends who have found help in AA with out projecting all my fears on them and it's to bad because as I understand AA is a program where people come and go when their ready and make there own decisions unlike the seed where anyone who tried to leave was hunted down and dragged back while they were told that they were so full of shit they weren't worth saving. I have, however, needed treatment for post-traumatic stress disorder, and expense for which I once considered suing the seed.
I few years ago I talked to a woman who was made staff when I was in the program. ?Yes,? she said she had noticed and was concerned when a twelve year old was admitted into the program. It was nice to know someone cared but I wonder why hadn?t she said something at the time; she was staff, beyond question, trusted. Then I realized no one was really safe there-- no one was ever beyond question.
Not all argument or disagreement is disruption, but it was seen so at the seed. The people who had the age and maturity to think their own thoughts seemed to know they had to keep those thoughts to themselves.
Look at your story. You disagreed. You were out
Let me be clear. I don?t blame anyone, not my parents who were told the seed was the best thing to do with me, not the staff members who were once on the front row them selves. But I think it is flippant and deflecting to judge the validity of other people?s pain. It?s just to damned easy cause-- there?s nothing so bad that it couldn?t be worse.
Thank you for having the guts to join this dialog. It can?t be easy to be the only x-staff member on board. It?s really appreciated.
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Damned potent, Anon.
On 2005-10-15 09:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
Thank you for having the guts to join this dialog. It can?t be easy to be the only x-staff member on board. It?s really appreciated.
Let me second that and also contradict you. I agree, it took some guts and some faith of conviction for John to join this conversation. Props for that. But he's not the only former staffer to post here. He's just the only one willing to use his real name. More props.
But I agree w/ the rest of what you've said. If honesty were really even a minor priority, let alone the most important rule, John and all the rest would have immediately dispelled the rediculous myth that they could read our minds. Instead, they fostered and encouraged it.
The will to learn is an intrinsic motive...The will to learn becomes a 'problem' only under specialized circumstances like those of a school where the curriculum is set, students confined, and a path fixed.
--Jerome S. Bruner, Harvard.
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On 2005-09-15 16:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
to stripe - how is it shady to receive payments on a mortgage thru?
If I may, thought I'm not Stripe...
It's not usually shady to receive payments on a mortgage thru. However, it's shady as hell to cry poor mouth and trick vulnerable people into donating funds and volunteer hours for years on the pretense that it's all going to save skidrow junkies from a sad demise.
The reality is that the money went to make Art and his little gang of mindfuckers extremely wealthy.
Jails and prisons are the complement of schools; so many less as you have of the latter, so many more you must have of the former
--Horace Mann
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Hey thanks Antigen, glad to know I was clear.
There are other ex-staff members here? I had no idea.
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really, I am not being sarcastic. The thought hadn't occured to me. I wonder if any of them were there when I was?
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Oh, I didn't think you were being sarcastic. And yeah, there's at least one other former staffer who reads and posts here frequently. And I suspect at least one other did a drive by come down a few months back.
Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?"
Priest: "No, not if you did not know."
Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"
--Annie Dillard, "Pilgrim at Tinker Creek"
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On 2005-10-18 10:47:00, Antigen wrote:
"Oh, I didn't think you were being sarcastic. And yeah, there's at least one other former staffer who reads and posts here frequently. And I suspect at least one other did a drive by come down a few months back.
Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?"
Priest: "No, not if you did not know."
Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"
--Annie Dillard, "Pilgrim at Tinker Creek"
"
And for clues on who that might be, try the thread about John Perloff's new cultish activities and read between the lines from the poster defending him.
I know who it is but I'm not telling. :lol:
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Its funny that a person like John Underwood who did not have a clue would start a thread called some insights. If Underwood would not have hit on a few of Art's favorite girls he may have become rich like the rest of the clan.
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Gregfl said: One small point John...that post you allude to indicated that persons at the St Pete Seed were punched BY Their parents at the direction of the staff. This in fact is well documented in the press and I have an indpendent memory of it occuring to two seperate people. Also, the threat was made to the group that it could happen to anyone. Hell, my father even remembers this as it was great topic of conversation among the parents. Of course he alledges he would have "never participated".
I am not alledging you had ANY involvement in this as I have no recollection of you being there during this fiasco, and it was admittedly done over a short period of time. However, this story made the local and national press . I will be happy to forward you a copy of the article where it appeared.
Okay, I can't shut up.
greg can you forward me a copy of the article-I barely remember this happing. I had a hard time believing this until the end of my daze!
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Do you have a sister ? Robin?
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Tell you what, when I get to my office next week, I will post the reference and an excerpt of the article.
I was also there, as was my sister, and she knew a girl that it happened to as well. My father was also well aware of it DURING THE TIME IT OCCURED, as were the other seed parents in st pete.
My father was fond, post seed years, of saying he never would have participated in that, but I suspect he would have if the staff had told him it was necessary in order to get me "straight".
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Dear All,
I just got back from visiting my brother who informed me of this web site. I don't understand the hostility some of you still harbor. I was at the seed from February 75 to February 76. I don't think about it all that much. I finished high school, went on to college and now operate my own practice as a certified public accountant. It was a little different for me as I had to live with foster parents during my year there, as my parents were living in Texas at that time. I sometimes wonder what ever happened to some of the people I got to know during that time of my life. As for as today, like I said, I do not think about it very much at all. My wife knows about it as I do not try to hide the fact I was there. I try living my life today in a loving and caring way as I have a deep faith in God. I don't necessarily believe that because of the seed, I am where I am today but who knows? I was just a kid at the time. I can say I was never mistreated while I was there. I remember Robert, Cliff, and John. I never had a problem with any of them and hope they are all doing well.
Chuck [ This Message was edited by: cajun75 on 2005-11-09 09:14 ]
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Welcome. Can you tell us a story about something you remember when you were there?
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Hi Greg,
No, I really don't remember very much to be honest with you. It all seems a blur now. Just living in different foster homes. Went to a couple of high schools there. North Miami Senior High was one of them. I lived with a guy named Terry and his family for a while but I don't even remember his last name. I have never been back to that area of the country. Not because of anything bad, just never had any reason to go back there. When I left I think I just put the whole experience behind me and moved on with my life. I moved back to Louisiana as my father had a farm here and I have never left Louisiana.
Kind Regards,
Chuck
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What about before you went in? What do you remember about that?
Were you a drug addict? Were you in trouble. What lead your parents to putting you in the seed?
welcome again.
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Dear Anonymous,
Yes I was doing drugs at the time. No I would say I was not an addict. I would also say I was not in trouble. And it is a long story of why my parents put me in the seed.
It started when my parents divorced when I was fifteen. My mother moved to a different town and I stayed with my Dad. He traveled a lot and left me and my younger brother to fend for ourselves while he was out of town. We were not bad kids and I never got in touble with law enforcement. I would never have stole, robbed or would have done anything criminal. Me and my brother had different sets of friends and I think he was in a little deeper than I was. He overdosed on valume one time and that is when my Dad who had heard of the Seed, flew him out to Ft. Lauderdale and that is how he got there. Of course he told them I needed to be there also and that is how I got there.
I think things happen for a reason. I do not regret anything. I think it did give me some direction I needed at that time in my life, although I do not dwell on it and to this day have a very good relationship with both of my parents. We all make mistakes in life but what really matters is how we treat each other and if we can learn from each other as well. I learned some truths at the seed but it still goes deeper than that. If I can teach someone else truths that I have learned in life, then that is a good thing. If someone else can teach me something in return, then that is also good. Like I said before, I have a very deep spritual relationship with God. I know now I am a Spirit and try and pattern my life the way Jesus lived his.
Kind Regards,
Chuck
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yes I do, Robin is doing well
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Chuck,
I remember you and you brother. I remember your dad too. You guys were good kids. You were the much taller one right. Who knows you both are probably big guys now. I know your brother is a doctor. I'm so glad to hear everything worked out so well for both of you.
Regards,
Lauderdale
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I just got power back two days ago. It took 2 weeks. Yabba daba do ( a Wilma joke)I'm very grateful for electric especially hot water. Still it was nothing like Katrina.
Cajun75 were you affected by Katrina?[ This Message was edited by: Ft. Lauderdale on 2005-11-09 12:27 ]
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I'm off to New York for a few days. Gonna catch a Broadway show, a pastrami sandwich and a frozen hot choclate at Serendipities. Man, I'm excited.
Catch ya' all later.
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Have fun!
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"Relating it to myself" :smile:I was the youngest person to ever go to the original seed. I was there when Hap and Mavis were there. I was nine years old and went voluntarily the first time with my sister Marcia. I learned about love and honesty there. I met a former comedian who had been saved by the program of Alcoholics Anonymous and had a dream to help the kids he loved in the way he had been helped. I was an oldtimer by the time the Seed moved to what would become the Haunted House. I led rap sessions at less than ten years old and because of the "awareness" you speak about I could call "bullshit" on a grown man and create a breakthrough for him. Was the hotseat tough? Yes it was but it helped people because in those early days it was strictly motivated by love. My second time around things had changed, gotten to big out at St Rd 84. There were many more egos involved and alot less love. Has what I learned there been good? I think so. It did not prevent the battle with alcoholism and then legally obtained narcotics that followed but I think helped me through them. Awareness was a powerful and positive tool for me and that has never left. Because of the seed I knew where to go when alcohol defeated me. I went where Art had and found a way of life that truly "works when I work it". I am gratefull for what I experiened at the seed even the second time around. I went on the Skipper Chuck Show for the Seed when I was very young maybe 12 maybe 10 not sure. Was I used? I didn't feel that way I wanted others to find the peace love, awareness, and honesty that the program had given me. I had forgotten my expeiences there until just the other day or at least had not thought of it in a long time. I am glad I found this place and I hope that there might be some who remember me from those earliest days. Please contact me if you would like at my e-mail address at "[email protected]". I think that I remembered for a reason and found this sight for a reason. Another thing I gained from my experience there was a personal relationship with God and I believe I am writing here now because it has become time to resolve some of that time in my life. Anybody who knew Art before the Seed became so big that staff isolated him would know that even if the overall experiment may have ended and in some sense failed he was motivated by love and the desire to give away the gift he had recieved in recovery. No world takeover plans just a man lit up with love and a burning desire to help kids. Did Art's ego come into play? Of course. He was a comedian, a showmnan and doesn't that in and of itself reflect a man who sought validation through the attention of others. But could God motivate anyone of us to his work without reward in some form. Was the Seed a cult of the personality of Art Barker? In some senses I would say yes. Anyone who met Art in the early day was captivated by him and the love that he radiated.He was a charismatic figure and displayed pride in things such as his relationship with Jackie Gleason. That sort of thing fed him no doubt. When I recognised my alcoholism for the first time at 18 or 19 years old he was who I sought. By that time he was totally isolated by his staff. A staff that had no concern for a former member who was in trouble. That saddens me still. But still because of him I knew where I had to go and I have no sense in me of ill will regarding his intentions to be anything but a beacon of help. The early Seed like AA would not have have accepted the kind of support that came with strings. Does that make Art a control freak? It works very well for AA and perhaps it was the acceptance of support outside of that principal that proved to be the downfall of the Seed. I learned many things from the seed chief among them was to live from a place of love. I also learned in a deep and abiding way that dishonesty particularly with myself would erode and block that love and the serenity that emanated from living that path. That is what the Seed was no matter what it became. I have recolections of people who influenced me there but some are fussy. Art, Shelly, Hap, Mavis(brutal but wonderful),Charlie, Libby(whose story was heartbreaking), Darlene(I don't want to use the B word but how else to describe her), John and many more whose names I can't remember. I hope there are some among you who remember the time I have described as well. It was a different but important experience for me and I would love to hear from those who remember it as I did when I was there.
Peace I'm out for now
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More evidence that the road to hell is paved w/ good intentions. Dude, much of that "awareness" you gained at the tender age of 9 was simply not the truth. The truth is that, given the right circumstances to provide perceived authority over another, yes indeed, a 9yo kid can impeach and pressure a grown man to the point of emotional breakdown. But do you truely and honestly think that the program dogma that spewed forth from that 9yo boy's mouth was accurate assessment? Do you think you actually had some special powers of perception? Or do you think maybe it just seemed that way cause, so long as you were spouting the party line, everyone in the room seemed to agree with you and defer to your authority?
I had a very lonely childhood due to having believed what you just said. There I was, about 9 or 10, telling off my elders, busting them for unSeedlinglike comportment and all that and getting all kinds of strokes for it. Why wouldn't I believe what all of my elders said? I liked hearing that I made sense and had unusual wisdom and clarity. I was completely taken up in the moment to the point where I treated my schoolmates and neighbor kids as inferiors. After all, I had the gift of Seed awareness. I was a good little honorary Seedling who would go on to do great things. Them? Poor bastards, 90% of them were destined to grow up to be druggise. It would be sad, I thought, to have to watch that. But maybe I could reach some of them before it was too late. Oh now THAT made me very popular! :roll: WHEN SPIDERS UNITE, THEY CAN TIE DOWN A LION
-- Ethiopian Proverb
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On 2005-11-22 11:40:00, Antigen wrote:
"More evidence that the road to hell is paved w/ good intentions. Dude, much of that "awareness" you gained at the tender age of 9 was simply not the truth. The truth is that, given the right circumstances to provide perceived authority over another, yes indeed, a 9yo kid can impeach and pressure a grown man to the point of emotional breakdown. But do you truely and honestly think that the program dogma that spewed forth from that 9yo boy's mouth was accurate assessment? Do you think you actually had some special powers of perception? Or do you think maybe it just seemed that way cause, so long as you were spouting the party line, everyone in the room seemed to agree with you and defer to your authority?
I had a very lonely childhood due to having believed what you just said. There I was, about 9 or 10, telling off my elders, busting them for unSeedlinglike comportment and all that and getting all kinds of strokes for it. Why wouldn't I believe what all of my elders said? I liked hearing that I made sense and had unusual wisdom and clarity. I was completely taken up in the moment to the point where I treated my schoolmates and neighbor kids as inferiors. After all, I had the gift of Seed awareness. I was a good little honorary Seedling who would go on to do great things. Them? Poor bastards, 90% of them were destined to grow up to be druggise. It would be sad, I thought, to have to watch that. But maybe I could reach some of them before it was too late. Oh now THAT made me very popular! :roll: WHEN SPIDERS UNITE, THEY CAN TIE DOWN A LION
-- Ethiopian Proverb
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I just spent twenty writing a billiant reply which is now food for the cyber gods. I don't have the energy for quite that level of brilliance so this will have to suffice even if it happens to be less worthy. If you are asking if I recognize the involvement of my ego in those experiences then the answer is yes. Do I agree with your argument that awareness was an illusion? Not at all. Can I not learn about others as I learn about myself. Could anyone not see how someones set of fronts were something they used in spite that they no longer served. I have my own conflicts from being there twice. I acknowlege that but the early seed was something different from what it evolved to. So I sit with you on some of this while at the same time I have to ask by virtue of what are you able to attack this percieved sin of "awareness" without being awash in guilt of the same crime in and of your very statement. Yet there is much I agree with in terms of this lttle gift as a source of validation. Am I bad because I needed that validation? The answer to that very questions is the road down which I traveled to being all f*'d up in the first place. And so we go on...Peace
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Well, let me back up then. I can't remember, or even imagine, a Seed where one could really speak their mind. You had to filter every word, every response, every thought or decision through the Program appropriate filter. No, I don't think you learn much of anything true under those circumstances. You damned sure learn the Program philosophy, but there's no natural reality check. You rely on a false concensus, you get a false result.
Was it different first time around? I mean, could you speak freely? Could you, for example, talk to old friends if you wanted to? Or talk about good times you had had in your past w/o bringing down some dissaproval?
" Could anyone not see how someones set of fronts were something they used in spite that they no longer served. "
No, nobody can really make a judgement like that for another person. I can't see why in the world some old ladies shave their eyebrows and paint on fake ones or old men wear obvious tupes. But I don't walk up to them on the street and start holding forth about it, far less questioning their reasons for dressing like that.
You can, however, jump to conclusions, get concensus or unanimous support or condemnation and conclude, incorrectly that you were right or wrong based on that. For example, I "knew", due to my Seedling-spidy senses who was going to start using drugs within two years. I believed it, I was sure of it, I thought I had great awareness. Unfortunately, I was wrong. Nobody could know those things.
And no, I don't think any of us are bad for needing validation. I just think it's a highly flawed formula for doling it out, that's all. Under normal circumstances, where dissent is allowed and people are free to think and say what they want, we get validation when they actually agree with us. In the Seed, you could only get it by agreeing w/ Art, whether he was right or wrong.
Was he not always like that?
"The answer to that very questions is the road down which I traveled to being all f*'d up in the first place. And so we go on...Peace"
Wait a second. What could you have possibly done by the age of 9 to describe yourself as fucked up?I look at my 9yo daughter and just can't even begin to imagine dropping her off, or even allowing her unescorted, at a place like the Seed.
If you don't mind, how did you land up there?A multitude of laws in a country is like a great number of physicians, a sign of weakness and malady.
--Voltaire, philosopher (1694-1778)
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On 2005-11-22 19:06:00, Antigen wrote:
"Well, let me back up then. I can't remember, or even imagine, a Seed where one could really speak their mind. You had to filter every word, every response, every thought or decision through the Program appropriate filter. No, I don't think you learn much of anything true under those circumstances. You damned sure learn the Program philosophy, but there's no natural reality check. You rely on a false concensus, you get a false result.
Was it different first time around? I mean, could you speak freely? Could you, for example, talk to old friends if you wanted to? Or talk about good times you had had in your past w/o bringing down some dissaproval?
" Could anyone not see how someones set of fronts were something they used in spite that they no longer served. "
No, nobody can really make a judgement like that for another person. I can't see why in the world some old ladies shave their eyebrows and paint on fake ones or old men wear obvious tupes. But I don't walk up to them on the street and start holding forth about it, far less questioning their reasons for dressing like that.
You can, however, jump to conclusions, get concensus or unanimous support or condemnation and conclude, incorrectly that you were right or wrong based on that. For example, I "knew", due to my Seedling-spidy senses who was going to start using drugs within two years. I believed it, I was sure of it, I thought I had great awareness. Unfortunately, I was wrong. Nobody could know those things.
And no, I don't think any of us are bad for needing validation. I just think it's a highly flawed formula for doling it out, that's all. Under normal circumstances, where dissent is allowed and people are free to think and say what they want, we get validation when they actually agree with us. In the Seed, you could only get it by agreeing w/ Art, whether he was right or wrong.
Was he not always like that?
"The answer to that very questions is the road down which I traveled to being all f*'d up in the first place. And so we go on...Peace"
Wait a second. What could you have possibly done by the age of 9 to describe yourself as fucked up?I look at my 9yo daughter and just can't even begin to imagine dropping her off, or even allowing her unescorted, at a place like the Seed.
If you don't mind, how did you land up there?A multitude of laws in a country is like a great number of physicians, a sign of weakness and malady.
--Voltaire, philosopher (1694-1778)
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The early seed was based much more on principal and suggestions much more like AA. In rap for instance the leader might not even pick the topic. You were to speak strictly from your experience yes but freeely within that context. True you couldn't talk about how pam felt or charlie felt or I felt but it felt more like guidance than pressure or force at that time. Be honest and relate what your saying to yourself. They had rules of honesty, no boy girl in early program etc. But they were commonsense rules. Remember the people that were there showed up because they wanted and needed something different. They wanted off the path to destruction. It seems to me that at the time you had be there by choice. They wouldn't do it any other way. Druggy friends well "you know if you hang out in a barbershop your going to get a haircut". And any of us knows that if you are serious about recovery and understand that addictive behavior can have triggers it made sense to minimize those triggers in your life. And since the only real program filter was honesty the reverse of what you say was really true then. They had no mechanism other than your own honesty to establish where you were at. Did people lie in group and maybe use and get away with it at times? Yes and sometimes they would later own up to it on there own because they saw by some insight that they had only sabotaged themselves. I think there might have been some early members who were asked to leave because they wouldn't work the program. This I am not sure about.
and me?
Well In the early days of the 9th year of my life my mom left my dad and both of us children. Almost immediately after I started hanging out with people who I thought were cool. I started smoking pot with my sister and soon had several friends who showed me how to huff tranmission fluid, pertussin and laquer thinner. It was in the mix of this that the older element of this group brutally and mercilessly sexually molested me and on more than one occasion. I feared for my life and the life of anybody I might tell.So I stuffed it. I started drinking whenever I could along with what else I was doing. In fear of my life and ashamed I told no one of what had happened to me until I was over 40 years old. I misssed 60 days of school in 5th grade. Everybody tried to help at school and at home asking what was wrong and assuming it was only the divorce that had traumatized me. I did nothing to disuade this but my behavior became increasingly erattic with bouts of rage and a complete and total disregard for any type of authority. I ran away from home three times. Why I don't know I was actually safe there. I built around myself an image that I thought would protect me. Part of that image was violent rage. I wore boots that were amenable to being able to stomp people, a belt with a buckle that could cause damage and carried a 12" lock blade knife everywhere I went. I never really hurt anybody. It was all facade. I had been desecrated and I was hostile yet petrifried. That is where I was when my sister joined the seed and later brought me along with her because she felt responsible because she had let me smoke pot. Of course at this point I know that pot was not the problem but escaping was something I was strongly motivated to do because as little boy I didn't have the facility to heal the pain inside of me.I began stealing both money and things. I covered everything about me with lies. That was me when I got there.
Thank you for the sweetful way you disagree with me and your interest
"No, nobody can really make a judgement like that for another person. I can't see why in the world some old ladies shave their eyebrows and paint on fake ones or old men wear obvious tupes. But I don't walk up to them on the street and start holding forth about it, far less questioning their reasons for dressing like that."
But you would if they asked you to help them figure out why they couldn't get a date and we were there asking why our lives wern't working. Sometimes we were resistant when we found out that we might really have to work and make hard changes to get better. But we were there because we wanted to get better.
"You can, however, jump to conclusions, get concensus or unanimous support or condemnation and conclude, incorrectly that you were right or wrong based on that. For example, I "knew", due to my Seedling-spidy senses who was going to start using drugs within two years. I believed it, I was sure of it, I thought I had great awareness. Unfortunately, I was wrong. Nobody could know those things."
There is in my mind a clear and distinct difference between what I thought of as awareness as compared to what you describe here which would be clairvoyance. Forget for a moment about calling somebody on something and think in terms of what awareness was at least to me. One aspect of the program was getting to know ones self. We humans are as remarkably similar as we are differnent but with minor variations people related story after story that not only related to others but to me. I understood where they coming from when they were shooting straight. When people reflected the same resistances that I had I related to that too. LEts pretend there is a biker who wants help but doesn't think he can actually give up his gang to get better. Can I see this as a possible problem in his ability to reach his goal of recovery. Of course I can. That doesn't mean that there are not exceptions to the rule. But you also saw people try it there way and fail seemingly to me more regularly than the other way around. But there was a deeper level. As an adult I regretfully ventured into infidelity during my second marriage. She knew without tangible evidence that something was going on. Just a little feeling that she was able build into a case where she knew beyond doubt. I was also on the the other side of that same unpleasant behavior which is only fair I suppose but without any evidence at all I knew before I knew. I couldn't prove it but I knew and before I ever had a case of any she disclosed to me what I already knew. I have had so many experiences that reinforce not disuade me from having confidence in what my inner voice tells me. If this is not your experience then were different. Thats OK. And when I get those feelings now I don't arrogantly assume I am right but I then start looking for other cues. Have I ever been slapped with something unexpectedly? You bet. It is just a tool and not the only one.
[ This Message was edited by: landyh on 2005-11-23 08:29 ]
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Yeah, I sort of get that. If it's voluntary. And it helps explain where Art got the idea that he had that exclusive access to The Answer®
But certainly you're not saying it was still like that, w/ honesty having the same definition, the 2nd time around? The internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around it.
--John Gilmour
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On 2005-11-23 08:34:00, Antigen wrote:
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But certainly you're not saying it was still like that, w/ honesty having the same definition, the 2nd time around? The internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around it.
--John Gilmour
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No I can't say that. It was different. I hope you see my other posts just because this is consuming me at the moment and they explain some of the differences. Regimented, guarded and forced. This was not the Seed as I knew it the 1st time at all. I had every jealosy out of the bathroom window and was climbing out when my oldcomer who unknown to me was outside waiting said "hey what ya doing". Off came the window cranks after that and any hope but to sucumb. If I was as smart as I keep saying I was I would have waited a couple of nights before I tried it. Bet it would have worked. Live and learn. [ This Message was edited by: landyh on 2005-11-23 17:59 ]
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Hey... Happy Thanksgiving to all..off to Jupiter for Turkey...
Landy , I'm enjoying your posts.
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On 2005-11-24 04:16:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:
"Hey... Happy Thanksgiving to all..off to Jupiter for Turkey...
Landy , I'm enjoying your posts. "
Happy Thanksgiving back to you and to all here.
I am glad you are enjoying my posts I still appreciate that type of validation. :wink: I hope those few who actually remember me will let me know who they are. PM me and I will respect your privacy. I would just love to talk to you and also to hear what and who I was from a perspective other than mine. I put myself out there in a recognizable way because I felt it would make this journey more productive in spite of the risk.
May the bird be moist, tasty and something to be thankful for.
Cheers
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John,
Good to hear you.
Inspirational!
Thanks,
Clyde Freedom
andrews ave/SR84 "1972" grad
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Thank you John.
I enjoy your contributions to my life.
Please say more.
What do you do now?
I am a builder.
I have a good life.
I work hard.
I have 3 kids.
One could do well at the seed the other two are well on their way to great things.
I did not realize that so many hate. I thought it was about real things.
Love to all,
Clyde Freedom
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You said:
But the really great thing about your appearance here is that your comments turned on the light and KAPOW!! No more boogie men. How freaking cool is that?
Its great.
So your a late bloomer.
John was a good leader for me.
Clyde Freedom
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Hey, some of you tech wizards should start a digital archive.
Pictures
downloadable mpeg news reels
sounds bytes
I know you can convert 16 MM film to digital format.
Like the ability to download the Ralph Renick Seed news segment from the 70s. I know the archival footage has to be somewhere....
As part of this website......
Just a Christmas wish list.
I got the idea because I have started collecting Vince Lombardi speech MP3s and archival footage that has been digitized and it is pretty cool.
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In the summer of 74 I was in the Seed for the second time.
I was in a apt. The oldcomers who had the apt had this big cage full of snakes they caught in whatever work they did outside.
And no, I never saw a newcomer get put in the cage with the snakes for a infraction. Although that would be a pretty cool post.
Does anyone remember the apartment and group living there?
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Sure do. That was Stranhan Apts.
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The Blimp Hanger rules!!!!!!!!
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John Underwood! Remember the Blimp Hanger?I would like to talk to you!!!!!
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Go Blimp Hanger and Tropical Park!John C.
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say it brother say it brother no excuse for involuntary incarceration without due process, absent clear and present
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John were you court ordered???? I was a 13 year old kid when i was hog tied and dragged into that place by many bigger persons then myself, many such as 3 heavy weighted women and uncles too, including i believe they even had my grandmother at that scene, too bad when you all used some stupid rug to roll me in and then tie some stupid rope i was not suffocated, maybe then they would have closed that sick brainwashing bull shit of a place up, my life, to save all others, for the sake of others, would have been better, why because if i suffered like i did i can not imagine how everyone else suffered, For one, i was asked did i do drugs, i said no, to this day and i am 49 ( soon to be 50 ) i have not done drugs, i remember even telling libby i never did drugs only to be laughed at and walked away from. No drug testing was ever done on me, nothing, i had never been in jail for ever doing anything bad not one time, i was only 13, i was on 2 swimming teams and a diving team, you idiots took me out of school, i never went back for fear of what anyone thought of me, i did not know if i talked to anyone what would happen so i split, you used me to fish my brother and sister in that place, they hated me because of that, they thought i set them up, so many things i went through for what, and what the hec was letting a 13 year old smoking cigarettes going to save???? You all every last one of you should not only rot in hell, but you should have to pay back anyone who went through such bullshit in that place, for one i was a serious vegatarian, your sugar water and crappy sandwiches made me lose way too much weight, i was already some skinny kid, i didnt need shitty food to eat i needed nourishment, any clown can tell you sugar is bad for you. But i am sure thats not what you and miss libby and art and who ever drank, but then you are the staff members right. I really wish someone would tell me why and how all got away with such hideous bullshit, oh and my oldcomer, she ended up getting fucked up after she got home, kept me up late, chopped off my hair using a razor blade, yea and i did get spit on and i did get pushed around and kicked, all are true statements which i so wish i could make all you stand up in court and have to listen to, would not just be me telling courts, be plenty out there like me. I just want to know how much money did you people take from everyone and piss away, while people were holding on to their souls by the end of a string, libby looked as if she partyed herself nightly, all those nice jeans and heels she waddled in, did you all think at all back then, i mean come on you all had to think that sometime in future someone was going to tell all sooner are later. If my spelling is bad, thank yourselves, as i really did run away from the seed and had to stay away from school because i was not going to ever go back to that place. You put me in danger being around court ordered drug addicts as your selves were, a scam is all this place was for fools to make a profit off of. I saw art maybe once twice in that place, must be nice having a businness that you literally do not even have anything to do with, but get funds, and major funds too, millions in funds, so your life was so fucked up that it made you feel like a king i bet, yelling at kids all day long, wow, how lame is that, did you all ever think that maybe just maybe if you really took in people on their own free will that maybe that place would or could have helped some, instead of stealing lying and forcing them to say crap that was not true, you know what i believe in, love and honesty and helping your neighbor and i believe in keeping my soul, i was lucky because my soul was never taken away from me that crazy time in my life, shame on you for letting parents that have too many kids believe that they should take and stick them in some fucked up program, that only benifitted, the staff, and who ever else made a profit. I live with myself daily, and i have always loved myself, i saw in that place things a young girl should never have witnessed, those old comers you so rave about well both got high as a kite when they got home, and guess what i never even seen drugs, until i was in that place, i have been around people who well got high and they never forced me to do anything i never wanted to do, i just never wanted to do drugs, i guess it bothers many who did not do drugs and had to go along with your dumb crap to get out of that place, my sister and brother both a few years older then me got stuck there longer then me, we all got stared over, some game , the way i look at what you all were doing is feeding each other, art got the money and power, you got to be free from jail, along with debbie, and art the black dude ect... you all licked his ass, and you got the most freedom you could get from a court system, but all forget to well talk about that, i may have been 13, but i was no dumb kid , i remember everything, i really will be writing more about this, i had missed out alot because of that place, you stole something that you dont care about, but guess what i do care, care more then all you put in that blimp hanger could ever have cared, funny thing is i know alot about you, and i am so thrilled you know nothing about me, i will tell you this i am more successful then any of you idots ever lied being about, i have more respect for the bums under the ramps in miami, i trust in them more then i would anyone from that place you called the seed. Heres my song to you john, THE SEED INDEED IS NOT WHAT I NEED< I NEVER DID JUNK NOR PILLS NOR WEED> wish i had a program where i could do what you did to all in that horrible place, ( all meaning i wish shoe was put on other foot turn shit around have you go through what you put many through) i would so love having you sit next to the filth i would bring next to you, crack heads, prostitutes, you name it, you jeapordized many in there, many young girls who had no problem what so ever, hope you enjoyed using me as bait back then, i was the little redhead who bite all you assholes when i had the chance. Peace! Oh, Susan be my real name too. I bet you, you would not meet in person today so i could spit in your face. I mean yours meaning all your staff and art and libby, not just directed to you all you unforgiven idiots. I will be back to make sure many know what i went through. How many do you all think you hurt back then, do any of you really care if you hurt anyone????
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I just want to know one thing you were what in your late 20's you say John???? You seemed way older back then, here's what i want to know, how is a 20 something man court ordered an addict like yourself, in any way of comparing to a young 13 year old girl that was dragged in hog tied against her will, and had never even seen drugs let alone know what they looked liked, how do you compare that to what you did to get put in there to what i did not do to be in that place????? Not to be rude but you were( and still are will always be) an addict i was a clean young bright happy kid, on 2 swim teams, and a diving team, till i was dragged in there, how do you compare that??? It was not okay to put you near any child, what you learned in there was to hide and be something you are not is all, you enjoyed having a way to be nasty and all to others, you were court ordered, what ever in life gives you the right to teach anyone???? You had no schooling to teach anyone back then, but you did take many out of school so they could not learn.You fucked up many kids in school, after i ran from that place for good i was then maybe 14, did not stay long i was smart i ran, i could not go to school in fear of what others thought of me. You all should be striped like you all did to so many in there, i wish there was a way you would have to start over and over in that place with me being the teacher now, i have still never done drugs, so screw all you so called convicts who got a fucking break by kidnapping young kids, assholes all you are, every last one of you, i hope this shit haunts you and art and libby and shelly forever, even after you all drop dead. By the way you also conned that place, is why you left, you learned to get away with so much in that place it became you is all, you thought you were the seed, you did not obey the rules that art gave you, art first then what???? you did not follow the leader, just like i did not follow you is all. Peace to all, i have much to say,i was there in the beginning when all this madness started, i was a good kid( used as bait )to get my sister and brother in that place is all, and they too never got high, so fuck all you morons when it comes to honesty.I was already honest and i already loved myself along with life, that place taught me to smoke cigarettes is all, pathetic and way against any laws, to give cigarettes to a minor,people should go after you idiots just for that alone. To this day i can not believe any parent would send a young girl or any child, to a place filled with convicts addicts and so on, way not cool to put those type next to any child, sad, and cruel is all that place was. Another money hungry fool who thought no one would give a shit is all, well i give a shit, and i am now going to see just what i can do to stop more places like this, see i blocked you morons from my life, i had to stay away from my family for many long years because i was so afraid of being dragged back to that place, thing is you never got this soul messed up, i grew fast and strong and i did not get hooked on nothing in life except for life itself,you took away many years from a kid that would have been maybe in the olympics ia all. fools, enjoy your freedom , as one day it too will be taken from you. I sure wish someone could give me information about Mida Garcia, she was a wonderful court ordered gal that watched over me, i was a mere 13 when i was dragged into that place, i only trusted her there, yea she was a bad ass to you guys, but she also had a daughter and was hurting not seeing her daughter you all so daily threatened her with, guess what when i split, she came to visit me before she left that place on her own she ran away too, and her ass was there a long time, so for all the souls that had to run, i feel all you went through, hiding is no way fun, anyways i so someone knows of her and i so pray she is doing well and got away from that place including the court system, I had to grow up over night for no reason at all, sad. Peace to all again.
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Could it be that many of the people who are anti-seed want to do their
drugs?
I can only speak for myself and the answer is a resounding NO.
My father and I have had a very difficult relationsip since the seed, but one thing he did teach me was if something causes you more harm than pleasure, don't do it.
Pot stresses me out and makes me paranoid. I haven't touched anything else for over 20 years and don't intend to.
If marijuana was a positive thing in my life I would do it. It is not and I have no interest in smoking a joint and obsessing over my shortcomings for three hours. It makes me feel bad..ie: it causes me more pain than pleasure.
Nowadays a glass of white wine (red was preferred but it stains your teeth) occasionaly is about all I do. I don't get drunk. I don't get high.
Drugs have NOTHING to do with my observations about my childhood seed experience,and in fact since we have gone there I will make this observation...the vast majority of you "the seed saved my life" people have spent your lives battling acohol or drug addiction/compulsion issues. IF the seed saved your life, why did you do the coke and heroin later in life? Why did you need commitment to other rehabs...why did your life desinegrate around a substance abuse problem?
I know your answer already about setting the groundwork for your later recovery..but I call a big BULLSHIT on it.
Sorry....just calling it as I see it.
well well well, look here, Greg has got to go back to school, (relationsip ,occasionaly, acohol, and desinegrate, all wrong spelling) how lame are you Greg, keep picking I love it. I asked you before and I will ask again, what type of schooling do you think you have???? ahahahahahah, need I say more? :bump: :flip: :rose: :roflmao:
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well well well, look here, Greg has got to go back to school, (relationsip ,occasionaly, acohol, and desinegrate, all wrong spelling) how lame are you Greg, keep picking I love it. I asked you before and I will ask again, what type of schooling do you think you have???? ahahahahahah, need I say more? :bump: :flip: :rose: :roflmao:
Susan sweetie you can't start a sentence criticising other's spelling with so many errors in it. It makes you look silly. Here, let me correct that sentence for you.
Well, well, well, look here.
You see Susan dear you must capatalize the first word of a sentence, put commas in their appropriate places, and then put a period at the end.
Are you with me sweetie? Lets go to the second part of your 2nd grade level attempt at sentence structure;
Greg has to to go back to school.
See my child? A period goes at the end of school, not a comma.
I know this is a lot to absord for you, so I won't go into the rest of your paragraph. I don't want your brain to start hurting again from thinking, but I would really like to see some progress Susan.
I am really trying to help you sweetie but I am getting so frustrated. Darn it!
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Are people in the Seed forum really so desperate for attention that they go and dig up 4 year old posts, find a couple of spelling errors, and then use them to try insult people? What is really funny is this lady can't even type a coherent sentence and she is raging around trying to correct other people's writing.
What a bunch of losers. I am glad I was never in that place. I can see what a bunch of juvenile idiots it has produced.
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Are people in the Seed forum really so desperate for attention that they go and dig up 4 year old posts, find a couple of spelling errors, and then use them to try insult people? What is really funny is this lady can't even type a coherent sentence and she is raging around trying to correct other people's writing.
What a bunch of losers. I am glad I was never in that place. I can see what a bunch of juvenile idiots it has produced.
And the biggest loser is the one who responds to the LADY. :roflmao:
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Are people in the Seed forum really so desperate for attention that they go and dig up 4 year old posts, find a couple of spelling errors, and then use them to try insult people? What is really funny is this lady can't even type a coherent sentence and she is raging around trying to correct other people's writing.
What a bunch of losers. I am glad I was never in that place. I can see what a bunch of juvenile idiots it has produced.
And the biggest loser is the one who responds to the LADY. :roflmao:
So your argument is basically "YES IM AN IDIOT BUT YOU ARE EVEN STUPIDER BECAUSE YOU RESPONDED.LOL"
Words escape me to explain just what a moron you are. And you are no lady.
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no just loved that you said i was a lady, loving that part. and fille go back to the chat room where your big fat aussie ass belongs, you bore me here. but then again you bored everyone in that chat room once they found out you were nothing but some fat bitch sitting on line with fake pictures of herself. hey look i left no capitalizing to get you all wet. now go post something that bugs me. maybe i will bring up the sick videos you posted on u-tube about some ladies daughter drowning in a pool. oh yea lets bring out the real fille, i love roasting fools like you on line. :bump: :flip: :rose:
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:bump:
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Ginger has a nice rack :nods:
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http://youtu.be/rDEiLImUUM8 (http://youtu.be/rDEiLImUUM8)
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Ginger has a nice rack :nods:
Why would YOU care?
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uhm, I think it just may have been a joke.. Ya know.. About the bump cart... being a rack of sorts? Maybe it's just me.
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uhm, I think it just may have been a joke.. Ya know.. About the bump cart... being a rack of sorts? Maybe it's just me.
Huhh??
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nunez is trying to oppress my freedom of speech with gay hate jokes
He doesn't realize that the joke's on him. I've been with women he would kill his family to get.
The ladies love panny boys :nods:
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A few people here have assured me that you're a real person, so I'm left to wonder what would drive you to child rape jokes, and into the arms of Danny
You're a homophobe
:suicide:
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Wayne wrote;
You're a homophobe
If by homophobic,you mean I am afraid of you,that's not true. It's just that if you're gonna' be an obnoxious idiot to a lady you deserve to get ripped on for it. Go back to hitting on Danny. We know you're obsessed with him.
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And dumbass that remark about you donating money to nambla wasn't a joke. But I'll see what I can find.
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Wayne wrote;
I've been with women he would kill his family to get.
Any woman who was with you.would obviously have to be an aids infected street whore,in desperate need of $20.
And as far as your child rape jokes go I'm still lookin'. Maybe you could help.
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Wayne wrote;
I've been with women he would kill his family to get.
Any woman who was with you.would obviously have to be an aids infected street whore,in desperate need of $20.
And as far as your child rape jokes go I'm still lookin'. Maybe you could help.
You're pitiful
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I don't know why this was brought up ... but have to say I never saw it.....I didn't know John was ever on here...to try to tell his story....I have to admit I started to read the posts from different folks....and I tried to start from the beginning to see what transpired to the point we have now ......its a shame that greg is no longer around....as I would have trusted him with my most inner thoughts......This site is really dying a slow death.......antigen, what do you have to say on this?????
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I have a story to tell......but no ones around to listen to what I have to say......they have all disappeared......I wonder why
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So Wolf, you been holding out on us. Time to get out of your head,and get honest with the group. Remember the group is your higher power. Art loves you, John was only following orders. Blah blah blah.......
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I have a story to tell......but no ones around to listen to what I have to say......they have all disappeared......I wonder why
Two reasons why no one listens. One, most people don't know how to tell a story, and a story like this needs to be compelling. Two, the personal story is the worst approach. Write it as it happened to you, but the story is The Seed.
One of you old-timers better get busy, or your history is going to disappear, like it never happened
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Not sure I want to join the pack,,,After all I'm a Lonewolf....The same story ...Don't know what I would bring to the discussion....When the time is right ....In the meantime, I will be lurking. I,m better talking one on one....prefer it that way....
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Hey wolf, you and ????? can get together and not talk to each other. And I wouldn't take any advice from Wayne either.
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noneya.....I don't understand your last reply.....and your previous one....You were just being sarcastic....right? :timeout:
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noneya.....I don't understand your last reply.....and your previous one....You were just being sarcastic....right? :timeout:
Sarcasm doesn't work too well if it has to be explained.
I hope that's not too vague.......
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no explanation needed
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Originally posted (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11132&p=149954#p149954) some time ago; emphasis here added:
Hey, some of you tech wizards should start a digital archive.
Pictures
downloadable mpeg news reels
sounds bytes
I know you can convert 16 MM film to digital format.
Like the ability to download the Ralph Renick Seed news segment from the 70s. I know the archival footage has to be somewhere....
As part of this website......
Just a Christmas wish list.
I got the idea because I have started collecting Vince Lombardi speech MP3s and archival footage that has been digitized and it is pretty cool.
More discussion of that footage (and more) in the following thread:
- The Seed of Hope
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=39197 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=39197)
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTj22EDs ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTj22EDsvoU&feature=related)
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Happy two days after Saint Patricks day , John Underwood, may you be forever in green beer and little green men
:shamrock:
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9J8-xmbf ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9J8-xmbfBWc&feature=related)
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:bump: I'm back ...maybe I'll average 5 a month.........have to work to get to my soul.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNcMdNDm ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNcMdNDmSfE&feature=related)