Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Aspen Education Group => Topic started by: Anonymous on May 03, 2006, 09:55:00 PM
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i went there, but years ago. i was just curious to see if it had changed at all and plus i'm getting my degree in social work and looking into different options - i've worked at a wilderness program since. but i think i'll stick to working with underprivileged youth and stay away from the boarding school "industry." however, i was curious nonetheless and this came up when i googled swift river. i was there just about 5 or 6 months after the school had opened. i don't know how much it has changed but when i was there, the owners and the administrative staff were as sneaky and dishonest as the students. it's a huge business. i'd say, for anyone thinking about sending their child to an aspen program, not to expect wonders - if you do it, be really clear about what you want for you and your child and have someone (therapist, ed. consultant) to walk you through it the whole way so you're on top of whatever the school is not. i think some kids get something from it, but more so because it's away from the environment they were "acting out" in. other than that, the work still remains between the guardian and their child. i think it's ridiculous to believe that a program can "fix" a child anyway, with no work from the parent/guardian, but especially within the therapeutic boarding school industry, it's important to know your own goals as parents/guardians and be clear about your boudaries and what you want from the school. sometimes the staff members don't know what they're doing, sometimes they do. sometimes they're as bad as the kids. i've heard many stories about staff getting high with students, and although i think this is more common with wilderness programs, i've heard a few stories of abuse. i think, whatever decision parents make, it's important to keep in mind that the school is a place away from home where their kid should safe - feel out the staff/faculty (visit the school). something key - a good program will incorporate the parents as much as possible into the process and... yes, hold the parents accountable as well. the parents have to be willing to do "emotional" work just as the students do. when i was there, it was very chaotic and the owners/administration lied about the facility and students. they had made things up about my life experiences before going there and because my mom and i (although things were bumpy) has a good relationship, she knew what they were saying wasn't true. they were giving dishonest information about me to a therapist who worked outside of the school who would then do write-ups to put in our academic records. my mom had to be really harsh with them because those lies would be in my records when it came time to applying to college, for jobs, etc. they also intentionally didn't give classes the students needed to postpone the amount of time students would stay there... even if students were doing fine and parents and students alike were ready to have them go back home. a good school with also be honest if it's not the right match. so, parents need to know what they're looking for, being willing to take responsibility for their part, have a connection outside of the school, and be a part of the process. if the parents go in with that attitude, they'll be able to be clear about the school and whether or not it's right for their child. they'll know if it isn't working and they need to find a different place. i'd recommend having a family therapist (if you can find a good one - haha, the hard part) and not relying 100% on the school. again, ASR may have changed since i was there, but it's still part of a huge industry. i wouldn't say don't use them, but know what you're doing and what you want out of it. there are good faculty members and counselors in the schools as well but don't expect it to "save" your child - it's a place for them to be away, to work on growing up and develop a better relationship with parents in a healthy way, and maybe if the school has improved, get something out of the experience.
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I am going to get jumped on by the fornits members but I currently have a son there (has been for 10 months. Things have changed for the better. There is no longer a wilderness component (which I have read about on this site to be borderline abusive).
AS for the staff (at ASR and in all of these programs) there are many loving, caring individuals. We lucked into an incredible therapist, which is perhaps why I feel positive about the school. There are also some staff that don't care. But currently, the good staff far outweigh the others.
AS for academics, we have found quite the opposite. We have chosen to accelerate his academics. He is able to complete both his junior and senior year and graduate high school (yes, I know many on this sight say they are not accredited and the diploma is worthless). Ous son is taking SAT and took ACT there (on site). He is applying to colleges and we have employed an EC to help us find the right college for him.
There are still petty little rules. In general, it is geared more toward earning positive things like a CD player, trips out on the weekends.... although our son has had his share of challenges. They are not inhumane, mostly writing assignments, not being able to sleep in on the weekends, no weekend movie or school store (snacks).
One main complaint that I have is that the kids seem quite bored on the weekends.
I think that part of our success there can be attributed to giving him a safe environment (from drugs) and time to mature. The other huge factor is the realization on ASR's part that it is a family problem. We all have issues,his sister, dad and I and we all have been addressing them as well as our son. ASR was able to address WHY our son self-medicated with drugs. He had very low self-esteem and these underlying issues had to be addressed before the drug use.
Perhaps you could work at one of these facilities and make a difference. Your background of what worked and did not for you puts you in a unique position. These programs need to change and are constantly reevaluating how to make them better.
In concept, I understand why the posters on this forum want to shut down ALL programs, saying they are ineffective and abusive. ASR does, and has been following up on kids after they leave the program. Relapses are bound to happen, but these kids have learned some tools to get back on track.
Sit back and watch my whole post dissected and being shot down. It will not be the first time. But, I am speaking from personal, current experience, not heresay or kids who were in the program several years ago.
I am glad to hear that you were able to move on with your life and are a productive member of society. Congratulations (this may or may not have happened if you hadn't gone to ASR)! Good luck!
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Thanks for the input. My daughter graduated a few years ago and is doing well also. It is good to see that ASR is still thriving, improving and expanding.
I do remember my daughter going nuts because she was bored on the weekends, but as it turns out this is when she did the most reflection and writing in her diary/journal, some of the counselors, you could tell were there to get some experience and move on, but the nice thing was a child could work with a counselor they liked on certain projects (i.e. life steps, parent meetings, group etc.) to help them if they felt safer with them.
I think if any of the programs improve their success rate it will be programs like ASR because they track their students after graduation and implement improvements /changes based on input. I can see from your post that they are moving forward and am glad to see it..
The people here may not abuse you to much, they pounded me for about 100 pages on another thread and gave up, I think. I think their heart is in the right place but are working thru personal issues, which is part of what this forum is about. Well, thanks for posting your experience. Here is a link to a long heated debate:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?So ... &start=735 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?Sort=&topic=2826&forum=9&start=735)
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The people here may not abuse you to much, they pounded me for about 100 pages on another thread and gave up, I think. I think their heart is in the right place but are working thru personal issues, which is part of what this forum is about.
you get "pounded" because you say the same dumb shit over and over and over for hundreds of pages. people have stopped because you are as dumb as a rock and talking to you at all is a waste of time.
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We lucked into an incredible therapist, which is perhaps why I feel positive about the school.
if you're relying on luck, why not just save the money and the pain hope you luck out at home? or maybe just go to a reputable, astablished psychologist and you don't have to rely on luck for your kid's well being.
pretty absurd to pay for services and only get them if you get lucky.
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NO they are not - call the DEEC at 617-988-6600 and ask them if they are licensed by them, then ask if they are not licensed who then regulates them and oversee's them...NO ONE Pray that nothing happens to those kids, while on medication, administering restraint, etc...
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we do not do restraints at ASR.
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I talked to my friend after the losers at ASR got through with her. She was a wreck. She liked some of the counselors, some of them were nice people.
She liked being able to tell her parents she was a lesbian and have her wicked step turn purple trying not to go into conniption fits as everyone stomped all over said step in the "reconciliation" meetings.
She liked Costa Rica.
And she was a complete and total emotional wreck when she got out of the place. She has no relationship, nor will ever, with the wicked step. The parent who sent her, she has a relationship with, but it has been permanently adversely impacted by both the harm ASR did my friend and said parent's lack of ability to recognize what a horrible, damaging, totally irresponsible choice the parent made in sending her to ASR.
My friend was a good person with her head screwed on straight before she went---a bright, talented, promising young woman. She still is those things, now underlain by a layer of pain, disillusionment, sadness, betrayal, and lingering trauma damage from ASR.
She is coping. She was on track to be a real winner of a young lady before, she is on track for the same now.
But the damage ASR did to her will always be with her, and will always be needless harm and nightmares she has to overcome, for the rest of her life.
Why was she sent? Because she had the nerve to get mad when the wicked step pulled yet another jerk stunt and because she had the bald-faced gall not to love the wicked step. She was sent because the wicked step is a jerk and any parent is almost always going to side with the person on the other side of the bed. More so if that person is a total jerk, because then the parent has to be enough of an idiot, or desperate enough, not to recognize a real jerk when they're sleeping with one.
Having a wicked step is an average bad problem an unfortunate number of teens have to deal with.
ASR was way beyond average bad. She will struggle with the aftereffects for life, and her relationship with her parent will never fully recover from the damage. It will recover more if her parent ever comes to recognize that gross error of judgment, but even so will always be more distant and less trusting than it was.
If you asked her parent, I'm sure you'd be told how wonderful ASR is and was for my friend. It's easy to convince yourself something is wonderful after you've already spent thousands of dollars on it.
But no matter how much the parent's self-delusion persists, the relationship with that daughter has been damaged for life. The parent is lucky the daughter is such a wonderful, caring, forgiving person or there would be *no* relationship.
Julie
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For everyone, especially The Who, that stuck to the tired argument that Dave Marcus is an "impartial author" just writing about ASR - the good and bad, here's the deal...
I said all along that Marcus was a program shill - and he is. Recent news states that Marcus is now an "Emotional Growth Seminar Facilitator" working with renowned child abuser Rudy Bentz. Keep in mind neither Marcus nor Bentz have any education whatsoever in the area of mental health treatment.
There ya go, mindless program supporters. DAVE MARCUS is now an OFFICIAL SHILL. This is just another item in a long list that all of you vehemently denied, but, again you are wrong - like you are on just about every single issue ever debated here.
HurleyGirley, can you please elaborate on this topic?
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Dear Lord...
So, he hangs out in an unlicensed, experiemental, BM facility and suddenly he's an "Adolescent Behavior Expert"?
Go back to World News, Dave.
http://www.kepplerspeakers.com/speakers ... sp?1-37JZ4 (http://www.kepplerspeakers.com/speakers/speakers.asp?1-37JZ4)
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Hey everyone,
I posted several times a while back in the long thread about ASR as a guest. ( I just went through the whole thing, and wow, what a disaster!)
I wanted to give anyone who wants to a chance to talk to someone who went to ASR. I went there 2002-2003 so I cannot comment on how the school is doing currently. If anyone has any questions about what it was like or anything like that, I will answer as best as I can.
-NA
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Do they restrain kids at ASR?
What passes for staff training?
Do they have a level system?
What about parent contact? Phone calls, home visits, campus visits? Are these rights or earned privelages?
When I was there:
1) No, kids were NOT restrained
2) I do not have the knowledge to answer this question
3) Yes, they did. There were, if I remember correctly, 4 levels.
4) Phone calls were once a week with the amount of time increasing as you progressed in the program. Until the end of the program you could not make phone calls without staff in the room.
There were 2 home visits and one hotel visit. I don't know that the hotel visit was a right. Unless you were dropped peer groups you were able to go on home visits as scheduled.
5) Campus visits were basically limited to ones that were scheduled (family resolutions). Parents were STRONGLY discouraged from coming and it was a big no-no for a kid to ask their parents to come.
I remember a mom came to drop off some things for her child and later the girl was told it was "not right" that her mom had come.
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what would happen to a kid who did not want to talk during group therapy?
Did they still use Bans to prevent some kids from forming friendships?
Did any kid ever refuse to send the letter home outlining their sins?
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What was the education program like?
Did they accept anyone to the program?
What passes for therapy?
Who approved level advancements and how where they approved?
1) The education program was poor. We did not even have a full set of encyclopedias. Some of the teachers were good, others did not seem qualified to teach the subjects they were.
2) I'm not sure what "anyone" means but essentially, yes. They definitely took kids that they did not have the means to treat. (for example, eating disorders)
3) If someone was on medication (and a lot of kids were) you saw an individual doctor. You also have therapy within your group and then once a week in a mixed group with kids from many other "peer groups". There were special groups and "life steps". Lots of crying, yelling, etc. Some of the things that went on in group I believe was wrong.
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what would happen to a kid who did not want to talk during group therapy?
Did they still use Bans to prevent some kids from forming friendships?
Did any kid ever refuse to send the letter home outlining their sins?
1) If someone refused to talk in group they would often be placed on a Reflection, the lightest of the consequences. You would receive a folder with a "truth list" and writing assignments to do things like "Why I feel I don't have to talk in group".
2) Bans were used to prohibit relationships being formed that the school thought to be "unhealthy". Bans included simply looking at another person. Bans could span from one person, one sex, a portion of the school (ie lower school), or the entire school.
3) I'm sure that some did, however you could not move forward in the program without doing so, so I think that most kids gave in and did it.
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So tell us about typical consquences?
Doing dishes
Losing school store
Losing movie night
Losing right to go off campus (which had to be earned in a specific fashion anyway)
work projects (forced labor, such as scrubbing floors, shoveling snow, clearing brush, etc)
being put on "bans"
for people on "challenges" or "self studies" you had to spend all your free time at a table facing the wall doing writing assignments. This included during meals.
Self studies had to stand during all meetings
For those who did extremely bad things (had sex, did a lot of drugs on home visit, were not "improving") you could be dropped peer groups, which added months to your stay.
At base camp consequences were physical, such as being forced to do push ups, sit ups, jumping jacks, etc.
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what would happen to a kid who did not want to talk during group therapy?
Did they still use Bans to prevent some kids from forming friendships?
Did any kid ever refuse to send the letter home outlining their sins?
1) If someone refused to talk in group they would often be placed on a Reflection, the lightest of the consequences. You would receive a folder with a "truth list" and writing assignments to do things like "Why I feel I don't have to talk in group".
2) Bans were used to prohibit relationships being formed that the school thought to be "unhealthy". Bans included simply looking at another person. Bans could span from one person, one sex, a portion of the school (ie lower school), or the entire school.
3) I'm sure that some did, however you could not move forward in the program without doing so, so I think that most kids gave in and did it.
Sorry, forgot the last. I believe your counselors approved level changes, you had to be in a certain stage of the program to move on. Some people never made it to the highest level, which allowed you to stay up til 11 and watch approved TV in the great room after everyone else had to go to sleep. It basically meant that you were "trusted"
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Oh yeah watchin' TV till 11 you in the big time now!
1) What are peer groups?
2) Did anyone ever loose the right to their phone calls?
3) Was mail screened?
1) Peer groups were a group of about 15 kids who you went through the entire program with, from base camp to costa rica. You had group therapy together, sat together during all meetings and did "life steps" together.
2) I don't know if anyone ever got their phone call completely taken away. I got my right to "private" phone calls (a counselor was always in the room monitoring anyway) taken away. I had to have conference calls for a few weeks.
3) All mail was screened. Only approved friends could write, and they could only begin sending you mail after you were pretty far into the program. All mail was opened, read and searched.If a counselor thought something was innapropriate you did't get the mail.
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ASR runs on an entirely different principle than I am familiar with. Or it is just the differences in terminology.
1) How prevalent was lying in group? By this I mean making up stuff to just get ahead and bluff your way out of the program?
2) Who facilitated your group sessions?
3) How often did you visit a licensed psychologist or mental therapist of any sort?
I am not sure if it is entirely different from what you know.
1) I think everyone to some extent lied to get out of the program. Some people went through the program having done drugs, had sex, etc but would never admit to it and were never caught. You learned to be compliant and really just to say whatever they wanted you to.
2) Two counselors (either your assigned peer group counselors or, when in mixed group, other peer group's counselors). If someone was in a lot of trouble they would bring in the "big guns", I forget their titles but I think some where directors.
3) I saw a psychologist about every 2 weeks or so. Summaries of these sessions where sent to parents. Some things I NEVER would have wanted my parents to know or hear about were included in these reports.
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As the parent of a recent graduate, I can answer most of your questions.
As for meds, they were prescribed by a licensed psychiatrist (they have 2). My son determined what he wanted to take and opted to discontinue his ADD meds (samller classes, he didn't feel the need) and antidepressant that he came in on.
HE chose to try a med to help manage his anger better and address his depression, which he was monitored carefully on. We are in the medical field and were updated on what ,meds were started and stopped (per our son's decision).
There are full-time RN's and LPN from 7am-10pm who dole out meds (and address any other medical issues). Our son was taken into town if he had anything that couldn't be handled there.
Med use in our case was decided by our son (as it would be in our state after age 14). Kids were not forced to take meds and I can't speak for others directly, but I think it was a joint decision between the kids,parents and psychiatrist on staff as to recommendations.
We did not feel the need to get overly involved in those decisions.
His mental health issues responded better to the therapy than meds. Meds (and therapy) here at home did nothing before ASR.
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1) What was the ASR policy on med administration?
2) Who doled out the drugs?
3) Did ASR have a policy regarding the reduction of meds during the program?
4) Would you say med usage went up or down in general in your experience?
RNs handed out medications and if they were not available (as when you were in Costa Rica or base camp) a counselor handed them out.
**** However, I do know for a fact that some nurses allowed students who were helping around the med office to pour meds, which is illegal****
I don't think that they had a policy, per se, but kids I knew who wanted to go off their medicine often had a difficult time doing so. I know someone who cheeked their meds and threw them away so they didn't have to take them.
I was put on several different medications while at ASR. More than I can remember. I can also tell you that I was put well above recommended dose by my doctor. He obtained some sort of go ahead from the drug company. I was told by my current med dr. that the dose he had me on had no therapeutic value
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Just a note about the off campus medical care:
While I was there I had braces and my mom told the orthodontist specifically to maintain my teeth, not to try to move them.
Well, he went ahead and decided to mess around with my braces and I ended up with more problems when I got home. ( a gap between my front teeth, etc)
I personally had no problem with the dentist but one kid had some back teeth filed down to tiny nubs. I don't know what the purpose of it was, I'm sure his parents weren't happy though.
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I don't know when Nalex was at ASR, but there hasn't been a base camp for quite a while (before my son even entered the school). Also ASR no longer does Costa Rica (and hasn't since last Jan).
The system that is used for meds is a unit dose system that is prepacked in individual doses (like in the hospitals) and is prepared off campus by a pharmacy company.
Kids have "cheeked meds", usually Adderall to snort later. This happens at every facility ocassionally. As for over-medicating, we actually had the opposite experience. The psychiatrist was overly cautious, raised doses slowly, and in our case I felt the dose was subtherapeutic.
The living quarters were actually like a college dorm. In fact, each room had their own bathroom in the room. We looked at several TBS's and ASR had nice rooms (the other schools were more like camp cabins).
ASR was also the only school that had central air, in the dorms, dining room and the academic building.
ASR hired a food service (that cooks for other facilities) and the food is pretty good. In addition to the menu, there is usually a salad bar and deli bar. Drinks are available 24/7 at dispensers like the fast foods. My son ate much heathier at school than at home.
On weekends they could get soda and candy with the school store money ($2/week).
The kids used to do their own laundrey, but as of spring ASR hired a laundry service, and kids no longer do laundry.
Housekeeping in the dorms and common areas are done by the students.
Gardeners mow the lawn and tend the grounds.
Students do work in the kitchen (dishes...) as a negative consequence. My son actually prefered the chores than having to write "reflection" assignments when he broke rules.
If one didn't know that it was a therapeutic boarding school, the physical facility looked like a regular campus. No gates, fences...
I am not meaning to sound like a brochure for a hotel I am just answering the questions posted. I can only compare it to the other programs (out west) that we looked at.
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I don't know when Nalex was at ASR, but there hasn't been a base camp for quite a while (before my son even entered the school). Also ASR no longer does Costa Rica (and hasn't since last Jan).
The system that is used for meds is a unit dose system that is prepacked in individual doses (like in the hospitals) and is prepared off campus by a pharmacy company.
Kids have "cheeked meds", usually Adderall to snort later. This happens at every facility ocassionally. As for over-medicating, we actually had the opposite experience. The psychiatrist was overly cautious, raised doses slowly, and in our case I felt the dose was subtherapeutic.
The living quarters were actually like a college dorm. In fact, each room had their own bathroom in the room. We looked at several TBS's and ASR had nice rooms (the other schools were more like camp cabins).
ASR was also the only school that had central air, in the dorms, dining room and the academic building.
ASR hired a food service (that cooks for other facilities) and the food is pretty good. In addition to the menu, there is usually a salad bar and deli bar. Drinks are available 24/7 at dispensers like the fast foods. My son ate much heathier at school than at home.
On weekends they could get soda and candy with the school store money ($2/week).
The kids used to do their own laundrey, but as of spring ASR hired a laundry service, and kids no longer do laundry.
Housekeeping in the dorms and common areas are done by the students.
Gardeners mow the lawn and tend the grounds.
Students do work in the kitchen (dishes...) as a negative consequence. My son actually prefered the chores than having to write "reflection" assignments when he broke rules.
If one didn't know that it was a therapeutic boarding school, the physical facility looked like a regular campus. No gates, fences...
I am not meaning to sound like a brochure for a hotel I am just answering the questions posted. I can only compare it to the other programs (out west) that we looked at.
I went there over 3 years ago, I'm glad to see that so much had changed.
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Let's discuss Living arrangements today:
1) What were the living quarters like?
2) Where they adequetely protected from cold and heat?
3) Food what was the quality of the food served?
4) Who cooked the food, maintained the facility, and did the run of the mill house keeping/gardening chores?
When I was there
.... The girls were switched into new dorms, while the guys continued to live in the old ski lodge rooms. The rooms were pretty comfortable. In the lodge rooms we had control over our own heat and air. Lodge rooms also had their own bathrooms, while the new girl's dorms had 1 (2 showers and a toilet) bathroom for about every about every 7-10 girls.
The food was... disgusting and I doubt nutritionally sound. Everyone pretty much lived off of dessert.
Kitchen staff cooked food. Kids did everything else as far as chores. ASR must have saved thousands on janitorial staff
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gookie you don't know what you are talking about so shut your stupid face up for a change.
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ah oh gookie. someone's got a crush on ya. ::heart::
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I don't know when Nalex was at ASR, but there hasn't been a base camp for quite a while (before my son even entered the school). Also ASR no longer does Costa Rica (and hasn't since last Jan).
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When I read What it takes to pull me through the only thing that seemed to be of any merit was the Costa Rica trip. Of course i dont know if it was sugarcoated. it struck me that the parents could have saved their dosh and sent their kids on a cultural exchange and a habitat 4 humanity programme. Why did they give this up? it is not like 80000 is too paltry. What are they spending the money on instead? Proper doctors and teachers?
Oz girl
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Despite the superficial changes I doubt the more important things have been altered at all. It remains all to easy to polish up a few odds and ends and passing them off as reputable change.
Keep posting Nalex. Your experiences as a witness from the perspective of a student is far to important to not be heard.
When my peer group got together a couple years ago we went to back. They were obviously going through a transitional stage. It was a lot different. Little things like the clothes kids were able to wear. The thing was that it seemed like a ghost town. None of the kids really wanted to talk to us. When I was there whenever there were visitors people usually always talked to them. Also A LOT of the staff had left, basically all the higher ups that were there when I was were gone.
It really wasn't enjoyable to go back. It sounds stupid but I was scared someone was going to shut and lock the door behind us. I also felt terrible talking to the kids and sugarcoating the program. I really just wanted to tell them to hang in there.
I am thankful that ASR was not like Tranquility Bay or any other of those terrible programs. Still, ASR was no walk in the park and some things that went on should never have been allowed.
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Dear guest parent while I find your answers endearing I tend to defer to the actual experiences of a program graduate.
Nalex never said he saw any changes during his visit. He just said he was happy to hear that they changed.
ASR doesn't need to be like Tranquility Bay to still be a facility that deserves being razed to the earth and sown with salt. That in itself is an invalid comparison due to the fact that abuse is abuse no matter how severe. As a society can we really afford to say, "Well the kids do need help, and gee whiz, ASR isn't as bad as Tranquility Bay so it must be ok."
Nalex please go ahead and keep on answering. You are providing a first hand insight to the program that obviously is starting to make the guest parent uncomfortable.
My questions asked previously still stand.
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Tsk tsk old bean I am not finished with the questions yet.
1) What levels of education did the staff commonly have?
2) Was their a grievance system?
3) Did you have access to the state child abuse hotline?
1)I think my counselors personally held bachelors degrees. At the time when I was there we had no live-in staff. At night we had "night staff". I think the only qualification for this was a background check.
2) I am not aware of a grievance system in place when I was there. If we were complaining about the school a lot of the staff had the attitude that "Well at least you're not at Three Springs". If you complained to your parents on the phone you had some nice things coming to you in group. It was kind of a "tough shit" type thing. My parents really hate talking about it, but from what has slipped out I guess they sort of got the same response.
3) No we did not. I think if we had asked they would have laughed.
They were trying to start an after-care type thing (at the time it would have cost money) where a counselor would call you every couple weeks or so. I told my parents NO NO NO. They also signed up to talk to parents who were interested in the program, which angered me to no end. I convinced enough parents enroll their kids while I was in the program (can you say brownie points?). After I came home and everything sank in my parents began to understand. They now, especially my mom, want nothing to do with ASR.
I think my parents and I have lost a lot of faith in the mental health industry, as we had a terrible and extremely traumatizing time when I was put into a psychiatric hospital and then with ASR.
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Nalex,
As for the follow-up support, it is optional. We get separate calls at home. The therapist calls our son on his cell phone and he can choose if or when he wants to answer it (his choice, sometimes he takes the call, other times he doesn't). He knows that he can call them anytime. I can understand why some who graduate would want nothing more to do with the school.
For our son, being an inpatient in the rehab facility was the most traumatic thing. He actually speaks fondly of ASR and wilderness. Perhaps it will take time for the whole experience to sink in. Everyone's experience is different. It is unfortunate that there is very little out there to help teens (and parents) before it gets to the point where the only option left is wc, RTC or TBS. Losing your son or daughter for a year is painful for parents as well. The decision is after all else fails. Our son was not abused and felt cared for and safe at ASR. He is back home, catching up and credits ASR for helping him overcome or deal with his issues.
What is important is that there are some decent programs out there . None of them are perfect, but many are trying to improve.
Nalex, thanks for your insight. You have been able to provide a first-hand perspective. I hope all is going well for you. Unfortunatey, not knowing what would have happened if you hadn't gone to a program, whether you would have been better or worse is something the whole industry needs to look at.
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Nalex,
As for the follow-up support, it is optional. We get separate calls at home. The therapist calls our son on his cell phone and he can choose if or when he wants to answer it (his choice, sometimes he takes the call, other times he doesn't). He knows that he can call them anytime. I can understand why some who graduate would want nothing more to do with the school.
For our son, being an inpatient in the rehab facility was the most traumatic thing. He actually speaks fondly of ASR and wilderness. Perhaps it will take time for the whole experience to sink in. Everyone's experience is different. It is unfortunate that there is very little out there to help teens (and parents) before it gets to the point where the only option left is wc, RTC or TBS. Losing your son or daughter for a year is painful for parents as well. The decision is after all else fails. Our son was not abused and felt cared for and safe at ASR. He is back home, catching up and credits ASR for helping him overcome or deal with his issues.
What is important is that there are some decent programs out there . None of them are perfect, but many are trying to improve.
Nalex, thanks for your insight. You have been able to provide a first-hand perspective. I hope all is going well for you. Unfortunatey, not knowing what would have happened if you hadn't gone to a program, whether you would have been better or worse is something the whole industry needs to look at.
I'm glad that ASR was able to help your son. It looks as if they have made some important changes. I can say that I am a different person than I was prior to ASR. I learned not to act out, even if the learning came in some uncomfortable ways. ASR had its merits for sure. I really am happy that they were able to fix some things and that your son is doing better. Perhaps things would have been different if the program was the way it was now when I went.
Best wishes to you and your family
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my friend is currently at ASR and i miss him and very worried for him! tell me as much as you know please
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I call well-organized, deliberately-planned troll on this whole thread.
Lots of crying, yelling, etc. Some of the things that went on in group I believe was wrong.
You would receive a folder with a "truth list" and writing assignments to do things like "Why I feel I don't have to talk in group".
All mail was opened, read and searched.If a counselor thought something was innapropriate you did't get the mail.
That last one is actually illegal.
I think everyone to some extent lied to get out of the program. Some people went through the program having done drugs, had sex, etc but would never admit to it and were never caught. You learned to be compliant and really just to say whatever they wanted you to.
Pretty sick shit, right?
But then he says:
I can say that I am a different person than I was prior to ASR. I learned not to act out, even if the learning came in some uncomfortable ways.
That's either Stockholm to the max or some serious fucking bullshit.
Nalex, if you are for real, you ought to tell this miserable "guest parent" to go eat shit and set about reclaiming who you were.
The fact that you haven't makes you a defeated little pussy and you ought to be ashamed of yourself.
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I call well-organized, deliberately-planned troll on this whole thread.
Lots of crying, yelling, etc. Some of the things that went on in group I believe was wrong.
You would receive a folder with a "truth list" and writing assignments to do things like "Why I feel I don't have to talk in group".
All mail was opened, read and searched.If a counselor thought something was innapropriate you did't get the mail.
That last one is actually illegal.
I think everyone to some extent lied to get out of the program. Some people went through the program
having done drugs, had sex, etc but would never admit to it and were never caught. You learned to be compliant and really just to say whatever they wanted you to.
Pretty sick shit, right?
But then he says:
I can say that I am a different person than I was prior to ASR. I learned not to act out, even if the learning came in some uncomfortable ways.
That's either Stockholm to the max or some serious fucking bullshit.
Nalex, if you are for real, you ought to tell this miserable "guest parent" to go eat shit and set about reclaiming who you were.
The fact that you haven't makes you a defeated little pussy and you ought to be ashamed of yourself.
I'm not a troll, whatever that means. ASR was not the best place in the world but I feel like an asshole when kids are really suffering at other places, and also because I had been in worse situations.. I go back and forth over it, and everyone else I know who went there with does the same. If the parent feels that changes have been made and her child has been helped I cannot state otherwise seeing that I have not been there in years.
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2) I am not aware of a grievance system in place when I was there. If we were complaining about the school a lot of the staff had the attitude that "Well at least you're not at Three Springs". If you complained to your parents on the phone you had some nice things coming to you in group. It was kind of a "tough shit" type thing. My parents really hate talking about it, but from what has slipped out I guess they sort of got the same response.
3) No we did not. I think if we had asked they would have laughed.
These here scare me more than anything.
Are you really saying that if you complained you would have gotten something "nice" in group?
1) Please define this nice, and how did the group find out about it as I thought phone calls were private?
2) In a hypothetical situation had you called the state abuse hotline and they responded what might have happened?
I am finding this ASR to be a very disturbing place. I probably wouldn't even send my dog there for obediance training.
*** I love it your parents and counselors actually said, "Well you aren't at Three Springs!"
That is the typical mentality of all facilities. At Three Springs we used say at least you aren't at HLA. So I am to hear the thoughts are, "Suck up the abusive crap hear because it is only worse elsewhere."
So slightly abusive, or quasi abusive is ok versus Tranquility Bay Abusive? We have the luxury of making such distinctions now?
Nalex do you mind if I cut and past your answers to another thread for future reference?
No I don't mind, as long as I see where it's going.
By "nice" I mean part of the group would be focused on you. And there were call logs taken by the staff there about how your conversation went . If we complained about the school our counselors would most likely start playing the whole "you're manipulating your parents to get out of here", or pull the whole other "you could be at [insert hellhole here]. Somehow, it always came back to you and your issues.
Hypothetically... I really have no idea. We would probably be put on bans with the whole school so we wouldn't be able to spread the "negativity".
* and my parents didn't make the comment about 3S, sorry if my crappy grammar made it look like that.
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One thing to remember Nalex is the parent is speaking for the child. Would you honestly have gone home and spoken out against ASR the first day back? Spoken out against the very place your parents praised from the hilltops for "saving" their wayward child?
Another thought for you... Was it ASR that helped you grow up, or was it you that did that on your own?
A more likely scenario is the boy went home, blessed his lucky stars that he isn't there anymore, and decided to play the good house boy and keep his mouth shut. It is very common that you see this with new graduates of programs all over the place. They graduate believing in the program and its merits, a few years go by and when they are out of their parents house they tend to start doing their own thinking.
They come to the conclusions that it is safe for them to voice their opinions about the treatment the recieved at the hands of their respective facilities.
Yes I can see ASR making some superficial changes. Perhaps they got rid of Costa Rica and hired a food service. The fundamentally corrupt issues with the facility no doubt still exist. They still have peer groups, and peers in those groups lie their asses off to get out.
Still I am curious about the whole you will get something in group item you mentioned.
What is that all about?
And by the way you shouldn't feel bad about the abuse that was worse elsewhere. You should be enraged by the abuse that happened to you.
Remember... the one calorie only of abuse is still abuse and it is still very wrong.
Thank you for having the courage to speak to us here.
The question of "was it ASR or me" is one that I ask myself a lot. I was sent there pretty young and had some growing up to do. I really don't know if it was ASR. I think the one thing that it did was made me be really thankful for my life at home.
It's hard for me to talk about ASR because I am still confused, which is why I don't blame that other person for his comment.
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No I don't mind, as long as I see where it's going.
In a sticky in my facilities forum where I plan to start catalogueing these question and answer sessions from graduates as they occur.
If it's useful for you then yes.
PS. dude is a lady :)
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You hawt?
Haha I believe that's an opinion
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:lol:
So would you have spoken out about what happened to you when you first graduated from ASR?
Why speak now? From what I am gathering your opinion is less than flattering.
Well actually, a while back in the big ASR thread that turned out into an all out war, I posted a few times.
I was so confused when I came out I really can't tell you. There were times that I would get really angry about it and others when the "ASR brain wash effect" came out.
I became interested again because I've recently come across people who I went to ASR with. (only one of whom seems to be doing ok)
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I am glad you feel free to speak out now. Again thank you for that courage.
Now next question...
1) Did they ever take a student that represented a serious danger to themselves and others around them?
2) Was your mail screened?
They did take kids who had a history of violence. I don't remember anyone getting violent with anyone else... although there was a kid who chased a base camp staff member around with a knife...
There were more kids who were dangers to themselves. I honestly think ASR is very lucky in that no one has succeeded in committing suicide. I can tell you first hand that for someone with major depression ASR could drive you past breaking point easily. It seemed like they pick and chose who they took seriously about being suicidal. I was not taken seriously, and had my roommate not been in the room one day, I may well have taken my life. I do not say that to evoke pity or anything else like that, and I was not using it to "manipulate" ( a favorite ASR term)
2) Yes, I think I answered that previously
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1) Attempts at suicide were viewed as manipulation?
2) What would happen after an attempted suicide was discovered?
1) Usually, yes.And they told you that very matter-of-factly.
The same goes for self-mutilation. I understand that SI can be used as manipulation but it does not excuse them brushing it off. They told me that I was using cutting as manipulation...
1)seeing that I had hid it from them for months even though i was body searched several times.
2) and only came forward when my roommate saw when I got out of the shower
I don't think it was. At all. I can honestly say that when I was younger pre-ASR there were times when I did use hurting myself to hurt other people, but I grew out of this pretty quickly and what I did at ASR had nothing to do with getting back at anyone.
2) In one case she was taken to the hospital for stitches and then brought back. I was her escort the next morning when she had to go back into the dorm. I'm pretty sure she was placed on a self-study. (the most severe consequence)
In another a counselor told us about a time he walked in on someone about to hang themselves with a belt. He said [something to the effect of] that he didn't place the kid on a self study because it was obvious he was hurting enough.
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1) What is self-study?
2) Describe this Escorting more please?
3) Why was a student doing the escorting of a self-harming/suicidal resident and not a staff member?
A self study was the worst of the three major consequences. (reflection, challenge, self study). You had work projects, all free time was spent at your table, facing the wall. Lots of writing assignments. Loss of all privileges. Standing during all meetings. You most likely had strict bans
Basically I had to take her back to the dorm and be with her while she gathered up her things and changed, etc. I don't remember if she showered or not. I was basically there to make sure she didn't attempt again.
I don't know why they had me do it. I was "trusted" at that point, and honestly... probably a better choice than some of the staff.
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delete
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I call well-organized, deliberately-planned troll on this whole thread.
Lots of crying, yelling, etc. Some of the things that went on in group I believe was wrong.
You would receive a folder with a "truth list" and writing assignments to do things like "Why I feel I don't have to talk in group".
All mail was opened, read and searched.If a counselor thought something was innapropriate you did't get the mail.
That last one is actually illegal.
I think everyone to some extent lied to get out of the program. Some people went through the program
having done drugs, had sex, etc but would never admit to it and were never caught. You learned to be compliant and really just to say whatever they wanted you to.
Pretty sick shit, right?
But then he says:
I can say that I am a different person than I was prior to ASR. I learned not to act out, even if the learning came in some uncomfortable ways.
That's either Stockholm to the max or some serious fucking bullshit.
Nalex, if you are for real, you ought to tell this miserable "guest parent" to go eat shit and set about reclaiming who you were.
The fact that you haven't makes you a defeated little pussy and you ought to be ashamed of yourself.
I'm not a troll, whatever that means. ASR was not the best place in the world but I feel like an asshole when kids are really suffering at other places, and also because I had been in worse situations.. I go back and forth over it, and everyone else I know who went there with does the same. If the parent feels that changes have been made and her child has been helped I cannot state otherwise seeing that I have not been there in years.
MGDP-
It is one thing to attack a program parent who understands that your use of vulgar language shows your lack of wanting to actually discuss or debate an issue.
Your inaccurate accusations of Nalex's sincerity or intentions was completely uncalled for. While she patiently answers some rather painful questions, she should be commended for her honesty and
sharing some very private issues must be very difficult for her.
Nalex, thankfully most people on this site really ARE genuinely interested in hearing what you have to say. You have been through a lot and seem to have gotten your life back together. It disturbs me as well as the others on this forum that many programs DO take kids with bigger issues than they can handle. Suicidal individuals belong in residential treatment centers, where they can be watched 24/7, not TBS programs. Unfortunately there are parents out there that lie or don't tell the real issues to get their child into a program for fear that they will be rejected. Being desparate to get their child help is no excuse for doing so.
I am glad to hear that you have a good relationship with your family despite being sent to ASR. You seem like a really nice person who has no agenda other than sharing your personal experiences to try to help others. I wish you all the best in life as you have worked hard to get to where you are today
PS. Don't mind Milk Gargling Death Penalty. Hopefully one day he'll grow up
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That's either Stockholm to the max or some serious fucking bullshit.
Nalex, if you are for real, you ought to tell this miserable "guest parent" to go eat shit and set about reclaiming who you were.
Why? Why do you want to run anyone off that isn't militantly opposed to programs? I personally AM militantly opposed to all of them but I'd like to be able to carry on a discussion with someone who thinks differently. Someone like Karen or Sue, yes....they should be slammed every time they post, but someone coming on and talking about their actual experiences, even though I may vehemently disagree with them, should be afforded the opportunity to explain why they feel the way they do. It makes for interesting debate, which I believe is the whole point of a forum, no?
The fact that you haven't makes you a defeated little pussy and you ought to be ashamed of yourself.
Fuck you, ya miserable little asshole. You have no fucking clue what it's like to survive one of those hell holes and have no goddamn right making judgements about anyone who does.
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Guest Parent:
Like you I commend Nalex's honesty and bravery. As for the rest of your position you sum it up nicely, though I disagree on a few critical points. A suicidal child belongs under a properly managed mental hospital. Quite often the terms residential treatment facility and theraputic boarding school is used as one and the same..
I think it is important to ask a few questions of yourself.
Obviously the picture being painted of ASR isn't a rosy one at all. How can you reconcile this information with the information coming from your own child? Even if a fraction of this information holds true for your own son I would be extremely alarmed. Being a veteran youth counselor of two different programs I can say that the model as described by Nalex is a frightening one.
Doesn't it at all make you question what you are being told?
A child sent to a TBS program often talks the party line for quite sometime after graduation. It makes sense as they had to eat, breathe, sleep, and live the ASR way for their entire stay at the facility.
I suggest that you consider asking your own son the same questions I am asking Nalex. Bear in mind the ends never justify the means. Your son may be doing well now, but if he witnessed abuse was abused himself that only comes back later in life. It is also, I am freely willing to conceed, that your son didn't witness any abuse or wasn't abused himself. I just don't find it very likely.
I would greatly wish to interview your son as well. I would be more than happy to post my msn/yahoo/aim accounts to achieve that goal.
3 springs,
I appreciate your ability to accept the information that I have given you and not accusing me of JUST being a program parent and dismissing every word I say. I read Maia's book about the early programs and was absolutely appalled. These incidents happened a long, long time ago and had I sent my child to the Seed, Straight etc. I wouldn't be able to live with myself today.
I do believe everything that Nalex said happened. She also was at ASR 3 years ago, probably when Rudy Bentz and others like him were running the school. I saw positive changes in the 13 months my son was there, and not all of it was laundry, food...
. I don't believe that the physical abuse incidents still happen (although suspect that there have been hazing incidents between the kids). I saw kids kicked out of the school several times for incidents where they were physical with other students. Violence simply was not tolerated.
I can see where the seminars could be seen as a form of verbal abuse. Family seminars were very emotional and I realize that our kids had to endure a lot more than we did on a weekly basis. ASR's Lifesteps have also changed from the ones described in the Dave Marcus book, What it takes to pull me through, in 2001 (where the kids were ripped apart mentally). They are gearing themselves to be more positive, self-esteem building processes.
I am not sure that the LifeSteps still exist anymore as they were being phased out when our son graduated. As I said, huge changes were taking place around then, presumably for the better.
3 springs- our son goes on AIM occasionally, so perhaps he would be willing to "talk to you". I understand what you are trying to say about it taking some time to sink in before he can process his experiences. Interestingly, he would love to visit ASR and at times has expressed wishing he could be back there (probably more for his friends).in some ways he felt safe (for ex. no drug temptations) and liked having boundries, and being responsible for himself (academically, socially....). He grew up and matured there and perhaps that's part of why he feels successful. There is something to be said for having to be held accountable for one's actions, something that didn't happen here at home. One thing that ASR is doing right, IMO is that they encourage positive behavior with rewards ( for ex. earning an i-pod). Sure there were consequences for negative behavior, mostly writing assignments which he hated. If he were trully mistreated, I don't understand why he would want to go back. Time will tell. But I absolutely do believe every word Nalex has said and yes, the picture she paints is not a pretty one. And would I have sent my son there if I knew these things were happening, of course not. For now, I do believe him that it wasn't some horrible place where he was miserable 24/7.
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Why? Why do you want to run anyone off that isn't militantly opposed to programs? I personally AM militantly opposed to all of them but I'd like to be able to carry on a discussion with someone who thinks differently. Someone like Karen or Sue, yes....they should be slammed every time they post, but someone coming on and talking about their actual experiences, even though I may vehemently disagree with them, should be afforded the opportunity to explain why they feel the way they do. It makes for interesting debate, which I believe is the whole point of a forum, no?
I agree whole heartedly anne. i also find it ironic that someone who claims to hate programmes is using bully tactics not dissimilar. Any comment that any poster makes which he does not like is considered trolling and results in a psycho personal attack.
My question to Nylex is what good do you think ASR did for you?
do you think the same positive thing could have been achieved at home without the programme?
If so how?
How was the costa rica trip for you?
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Why is it that when we shared these same sort of positive comments about Carlbrook we were trashed and the whole thing became another beating up of KareninDallas? butterfly and I had valid things to say, and re-reading the threads it appears others did as well, but got run off or had their contact information spewed all over the threads.
you act like Milk is some kind of exception- he is the way everyone saying the slightest good thing about a school is treated now matter what. Go back to the other ASR or Carlbrook discussions- its the same thing over and over.
no-I could not accomplish at home what I did at Carlbrook. i did whatever I wanted at home and wouldn't listed to anyone. At Carlbrook I had to, just as theis guest parent is saying about ASR. It's the same thing.
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I would say that no parent can really know for sure what goes on in a programme or speak for their kid because they were not there. How many parents really knows what happens on a day to day basis when their kid is at a normal day school, or a regular boarding school? it is impossible because no kid tells their parents everything.I had loving parents annd a close family but of course they did not get told everyting that happened at school. This is because Adolescence is about breaking away to some extent. When you take this ordinary fact of life and add an environment where a kid has to be outwardly enthusiastic to progress no parent can possibly get the whole truth from their kid only what they want to hear.
But a kid can give you their perspective. One thing i note is that many kids who have been in a programme and feel there were some benefits is that they dont often actually deny the awful bits. therefore it is better to ask how the good parts if any could actually happen without the need to be sent to some crass cash cow which at best controls thoughts and at worse does fucking dreadful things that anyone with a heart would not inflict on their worse enemy. Just because I am not going to deny a kids experience does not mean that i like much about this meanspirited and exploitative industry.
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Why is it that when we shared these same sort of positive comments about Carlbrook we were trashed and the whole thing became another beating up of KareninDallas? butterfly and I had valid things to say, and re-reading the threads it appears others did as well, but got run off or had their contact information spewed all over the threads.
you act like Milk is some kind of exception- he is the way everyone saying the slightest good thing about a school is treated now matter what. Go back to the other ASR or Carlbrook discussions- its the same thing over and over.
no-I could not accomplish at home what I did at Carlbrook. i did whatever I wanted at home and wouldn't listed to anyone. At Carlbrook I had to, just as theis guest parent is saying about ASR. It's the same thing.
No, I've talked with you guys about Carlbrook before. It starts out just like what I try to do here but then it really is either Karen or someone similar and then you get trashed and run off. And if by some chance I am mistaken, the opportunity is here now...in the appropriate Carlbrook thread of course. Carpe diem. If Milk comes along and trashes you, ignore him and deal with those that aren't. But as soon as we find out you're Karen, Sue or one of the other ST or PURE idiots that we've dealt with time after time, I'll be right there alongside Milk trashing away and I'm sure I won't be alone. There's a difference between someone truly asking for information or talking about their real experiences and the bullshit you spit out.
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I just went back and re-read the last few pages of that thread you're referring to. You and Butterfly had plenty of opportunity to carry on a discussion about it. We started to. I asked questions. They were ignored and you were exposed. The conversation might have actually gone somewhere if you hadn't shown up and been the fucking moron that you are.
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Why? Why do you want to run anyone off that isn't militantly opposed to programs? I personally AM militantly opposed to all of them but I'd like to be able to carry on a discussion with someone who thinks differently. Someone like Karen or Sue, yes....they should be slammed every time they post, but someone coming on and talking about their actual experiences, even though I may vehemently disagree with them, should be afforded the opportunity to explain why they feel the way they do. It makes for interesting debate, which I believe is the whole point of a forum, no?
I agree whole heartedly anne. i also find it ironic that someone who claims to hate programmes is using bully tactics not dissimilar. Any comment that any poster makes which he does not like is considered trolling and results in a psycho personal attack.
My question to Nylex is what good do you think ASR did for you?
do you think the same positive thing could have been achieved at home without the programme?
If so how?
How was the costa rica trip for you?
After ASR I no longer acted out. I used to lash out at my family but I don't do that much now. Unfortunately, as for the underlying causes of my outward behaviors, ASR did not do much.
Costa Rica was hard physically as well as emotionally. It was hard for me to enjoy such a beautiful place under the circumstances.
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My son was at ASR when base camp existed (he hated it) and he really changed a lot in Costa Rica (he apparently loved it.) He has written many essays (in others schools--he was only 15 when he left ASR) and I can think of no reason he would "lie" subsequently. He loved CR. I can certainly agree that giving the party line back could be a serious problem if groups were as coercive as described but that my son was still writing about CR in college admission essays seems uncoerced to me.
My son kept all his written work--even the self study which I guess was a severe punishment, although he did not describe it as such at the time. However, reading it (with him) years later, he explained his thought processes and it seems that he gained from putting his thoughts into writing. If he had to sit that would have been fine with him--standing at a meeting would not have been. However, the content of the self-study really seems to be the point and it is self-evidently valuable to him and to me, sharing it later.
I agree te education was mediocre but since my son did not like school anyway, I don't think there was a lot lost in 14 months. He did better in school upon returning home, so I think his increased motivation for living allowed him to catch up whatever was poorly taught (or not taught) at ASR. His SAT scores were fine but maybe they would have been anyway with or without ASR.
Currently my son is 19 and a student in NYC. He is in contact with several members of his peer group and most are doing OK--the exceptions seem to be those with heavy drug problems when they entered. That was not a problem for my son but I wondered when he was there if those students who were clearly addicted to drugs were well served in the program at ASR.
I think program match is important. I did not use an educational consultant. I wanted a program that was structured but not strict b-mod, had no sports teams and had an "artsy" student population where violence was not tolerated. The day before our first family resolution, a member of the peer group was kicked out for hitting someone. Although I was sorry for that boy, I was very glad my son was in a program where that would happen; if my son had felt bullied, he never would have opened his mouth.
While he was there, my son filed a complaint in writing against the PE teacher because he thought he was too much like a drill sergeant. This complaint was treated seriously and the PE teacher left. My son was depressed and rather shy (but very compassionate) so it is hard for me to reconcile what I am reading with him filing a complaint. If he had felt unsafe, he would not have done that.
Finally, I thought the consulting psychiatrist's approach to medication was cautious (which is good) and far better than we had experienced in the community--where meds are thrown around too freely IMO. Like another parent, my son had a say in his meds--mainly trying to find one that would lift the depression with the fewest side effects.
In short, I know no program is above criticism but getting away from the public school bullies (and then finishing h.s. at a private day school) gave my son the break he needed to get some perspective that adulthood could work for him if he could survive childhood.
As far as the person who said parents were not supposed to come to the weekends?? Every parent of the kids in the peer group was there including divorced parents who were not otherwise speaking. One child's parent could not go the CR and she appeared unhappy about that. Every other family had one or both parents in CR.
I was directed to this site by someone who is very confused about what to do for her son--she has exhausted local options and she fears the looming drug exposure in high school (with justification I think.) She knows me and my son well. She knows that I didn't just want to get rid of him for a while--and she can see how he has changed from a highly problematic young teen into a functional young adult. I am interested in whether ASR positively contributed to that change--or as someone stated, he "just grew up." Some of each is possible--but I fear that at home with the bullies, the huge high school, and the potential for serious drug use, and suicidality, he would not have survived to grow up.
Just a Mom
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[troll7]
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Just a mom, I suffer with clinical depression and survived without a program. Institutionalization should only be used for an immediate crisis and only short term in a mental hospital. If depression and bullying was your kids problem a real boarding school would be much better then a quasi therapeutic one.
From what I have read in this thread I would have to say that ASR is not a place for the depressed or suicidal teen
There were more kids who were dangers to themselves. I honestly think ASR is very lucky in that no one has succeeded in committing suicide. I can tell you first hand that for someone with major depression ASR could drive you past breaking point easily. It seemed like they pick and chose who they took seriously about being suicidal. I was not taken seriously, and had my roommate not been in the room one day, I may well have taken my life. I do not say that to evoke pity or anything else like that, and I was not using it to "manipulate" ( a favorite ASR term)
I hope you plan on sticking around, if you do please register :D
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That's right, GMDP- resort to your usual troll-o-meter response.
Never mind that Just A Mom may offer some valuable information first-hand from her experiences- not just here-say. She has no motive other than to share her opinion of ASR. She doesn't come across as a "program parent" that is recommending ASR or any other program to others- just relaying how her son, regardless of ASR's role (positive or negative), is doing well today.
JustaMom- That is great news that your son was able to get his life back on track (and glad to hear that most of his peer group, 4 years later are also doing well). ASR is currently following its graduates to see how they are doing- the data isn't in yet since they started to follow them within the past year or so, but so far most of the students in our track have been able to come back to a normal adolescent/young adult life.
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No, it's bullshit, an utter fiction. And you're clearly both employees.
Do you honestly think we can't see through this shit? "Our track", the pure program-ese? This schtick got old when HLA was doing it back on Fornits, with idiot after HLA idiot pretending to be students and parents. HLA is bleeding to death.
Do you honestly want to get into a fiction war with me? I can outwrite both of you without even thinking about it.
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Fight, fight, fight!!!
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Not that it matters, but I really am the parent of a son who recently graduated from ASR. I believe that Justamom is as well. We can only speak of our experiences with the school.
I find it hard to believe that employees go onto this site and pose as parents. For what purpose? To attract parents? Unfortunately, there isn't a shortage of kids that are placed there for them to need to do that.
My purpose on this site was to give first-hand information on the program as it is now (which I did earlier in this thread with TSW and Nalex). Not every program scars every kid for life. Some can actually help them get their lives back on track. Whether they would have on their own, with time as they matured can't be answered. It would be great to have a study for that purpose.
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My son was at ASR when base camp existed (he hated it) and he really changed a lot in Costa Rica (he apparently loved it.) He has written many essays (in others schools--he was only 15 when he left ASR) and I can think of no reason he would "lie" subsequently. He loved CR. I can certainly agree that giving the party line back could be a serious problem if groups were as coercive as described but that my son was still writing about CR in college admission essays seems uncoerced to me.
My son kept all his written work--even the self study which I guess was a severe punishment, although he did not describe it as such at the time. However, reading it (with him) years later, he explained his thought processes and it seems that he gained from putting his thoughts into writing. If he had to sit that would have been fine with him--standing at a meeting would not have been. However, the content of the self-study really seems to be the point and it is self-evidently valuable to him and to me, sharing it later.
I agree te education was mediocre but since my son did not like school anyway, I don't think there was a lot lost in 14 months. He did better in school upon returning home, so I think his increased motivation for living allowed him to catch up whatever was poorly taught (or not taught) at ASR. His SAT scores were fine but maybe they would have been anyway with or without ASR.
Currently my son is 19 and a student in NYC. He is in contact with several members of his peer group and most are doing OK--the exceptions seem to be those with heavy drug problems when they entered. That was not a problem for my son but I wondered when he was there if those students who were clearly addicted to drugs were well served in the program at ASR.
I think program match is important. I did not use an educational consultant. I wanted a program that was structured but not strict b-mod, had no sports teams and had an "artsy" student population where violence was not tolerated. The day before our first family resolution, a member of the peer group was kicked out for hitting someone. Although I was sorry for that boy, I was very glad my son was in a program where that would happen; if my son had felt bullied, he never would have opened his mouth.
While he was there, my son filed a complaint in writing against the PE teacher because he thought he was too much like a drill sergeant. This complaint was treated seriously and the PE teacher left. My son was depressed and rather shy (but very compassionate) so it is hard for me to reconcile what I am reading with him filing a complaint. If he had felt unsafe, he would not have done that.
Finally, I thought the consulting psychiatrist's approach to medication was cautious (which is good) and far better than we had experienced in the community--where meds are thrown around too freely IMO. Like another parent, my son had a say in his meds--mainly trying to find one that would lift the depression with the fewest side effects.
In short, I know no program is above criticism but getting away from the public school bullies (and then finishing h.s. at a private day school) gave my son the break he needed to get some perspective that adulthood could work for him if he could survive childhood.
As far as the person who said parents were not supposed to come to the weekends?? Every parent of the kids in the peer group was there including divorced parents who were not otherwise speaking. One child's parent could not go the CR and she appeared unhappy about that. Every other family had one or both parents in CR.
I was directed to this site by someone who is very confused about what to do for her son--she has exhausted local options and she fears the looming drug exposure in high school (with justification I think.) She knows me and my son well. She knows that I didn't just want to get rid of him for a while--and she can see how he has changed from a highly problematic young teen into a functional young adult. I am interested in whether ASR positively contributed to that change--or as someone stated, he "just grew up." Some of each is possible--but I fear that at home with the bullies, the huge high school, and the potential for serious drug use, and suicidality, he would not have survived to grow up.
Just a Mom
Thanks Just-a-mom for taking the time to share your story. Your account will probably be treated with disbelief, by many, because your story doesn?t depict a negative experience but there are parents who come here to read and its nice to hear from both sides.
I believe in my daughters case ASR provided a safe place for her to grow and as a result she matured very quickly during her 15-16 months there. It was a combination of both in her case.
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What is a troll?
I was directed to this site and I am really sorry that some of you seem to have had such negative experiences. I wonder what you would have been like left to fend for yourself in a high school with 5000 students?
I do not agree that psych hospitals are a good option--they release kids in 36 hours and the kids get so savy that they do really dangerous things and then deny suicidal intent in the ER. I really did not want my (immature) 14 year old to learn all of this--and he didn't. He lasted in high school for 13 days. He left ASR with 5 semesters of h.s. left so then he researched the type of day school he wanted (we live in a large metro area with many private options.) He picked a high school that was good for him and he graduated on time.
I am happy that he is happy. I think that 4 years is plenty of time for him to get over his "brainwahing" or whatever you think he currently is like. I insisted he take a maintence dosage of anitdepressants until he was 18. At that time, he tapered off-against medical advice, but I supported his decision. We have an agreement that if he feels the "darkness" coming again, he will go back on meds. He has told me he never wants to feel again as he did at 14. I believe him.
ASR was a good choice for him and because he was 14, I made that decision for him. Maybe I would have made another choice if I had read this information, but I did my research, visited, and thought it was a good match. I also had a good realtionship with my son before his severe depression and have had a good relationship with him post ASR. He is now an adult--it's his life and he shares it with me--or the parts a student living in NYC would want to share with his mother. You seem to think that BOTH of us are brainwashed or something. I have all his written work from ASR adn it doesn't look that way to me--it looks as though he put a lot of thought into what he was writing--perhaps that is why he did well--he TRIED--what a noel thought--that motivation could count, even at ASR.
The idea that I am an employee of ASR is just plain weird.
I'm still
JustaMom
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:roll:
You're still not fooling anyone. It's obvious, like elephant-hiding-behind-a-sapling obvious. "What is a troll" is the first clue. :roll:
You don't actually interact with other people on this forum, not because you don't want to but rather because you can't- your author isn't smart or versatile enough to know how to play you. You can't express an opinion on the "Restraints" thread, the various comments on the main forum, or anywhere else. The only thing you can do is make laughably wild claims of having children and having experiences that are obviously pulled out of thin air, and creating even more fake parents when your old ones are getting destroyed.
Cripes. Two-dimensional much? When I bring my fictional characters in here, they feel real, despite their superhumanity, and it irks me to no end that all the programmies can come up with is this shit. :roll: C'mon guys, you can at least try to make them act like people! Or are you so insulated in your little programmie world that you honestly think people are going to believe this shit over a video of a screaming girl with her arms twisted behind her back?
Aspen, you make millions torturing children and feeding their broken remains back to their parents for profit. You can afford to hire a real author for this sort of thing, can't you? I'm certain you could find one with few enough scruples.
But before that, drop the fucking charade. It's getting old.
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I do not know where you pain is coming from--but you are so distorted that it is not worth saying anything here since you just ridicule and call people names.
It is too bad IMO that you drive off people who might want to exchange ideas about topics that are relevant to the issues I thought this site addressed. I don't know what you find so obviously false about my account of the last five years. I am certainly aware that ASR did not "fix" everyone who went there. Come to think of it, who would believe a claim of a 100% cure rate--for ANYTHING.
I have a functional young adult of whom I am very proud. I hope your mother can say the same.
Any further interaction with you is a waste of time.
JustaMom
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JustaMom, don't worry about proving who you are to anyone. Some people come here and make stuff up to push programs and that's why some like MGDP get suspicious.
If you don't mind I would like to ask you some questions:- What issues did your son have that led you to seek out a residential placement?
- What other options had you tried before deciding to go with a placement?
- How did you come across ASR?
- Did anyone at ASR speak with your son or check his mental health history to determine if the program was a fit for him?
- Did you ^need to use an escort services, and if so,
- what was the escort services?
- who led you to the service?
- and why did you ^need to us it?
- Did any one warn you not to believe your son if he claimed he was being abused or mistreated?
- Did anyone warn you that your son would try to manipulate you so that you would pull him from the program?
- Could you have any uncensored contact with your son?
- What was the nature of the "treatment" at ASR?
- What about the treatment do you feel helped your son with his problems
- What did ASR say about their program in regards to your son's problems?
- Did they treat your sons Depression as a behavioral problem or a mental health issue?
- Did ASR take cutting/suicide attempts seriously or did they dismiss such behavior as manipulation?
- What type of education did ASR provide?
- Did ASR use stages or levels, if so, could you explain them in detail?
- What was the training of the everyday staff?
- Is the facility state licensed?
- Did ASR send "difficult" kids to a more "rigorous" program?
- What types of consequences did ASR use and for what behaviors?
Ok I'll probably have more later but these will do for now......
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I responded to each of your questions and submitted it. However, it somehow is not showing up and I do not know what I did incorrectly.
I tried to quote so I could just answer each question in turn. Apparently--that doe not work. Some troll--huh--or whatever.
I do not have the time or energy to reconstruct the post but I wanted you to know that I have an answer for most of your questions and I am not ignoring you due to the behavior of others.
If I have time and can figure out how to answer each question below your questions, I'll try again.
Still
JustaMom
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To quote my questions place [ quote ] at the beginning of the question and [ /quote ] at the end of the question, just remove the spaces [q...] [/q...]
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JustaMom, don't worry about proving who you are to anyone. Some people come here and make stuff up to push programs and that's why some like MGDP get suspicious.
If you don't mind I would like to ask you some questions:
? What issues did your son have that led you to seek out a residential placement?
He had two major depressions by the time he was 14; he was a ?different? and musically gifted child who was bullied. As a defense, he started dressing like a Goth and hanging out with Goths?he had a lot of suicidal ideation. The public high school would not keep him because of his suicidal talk and when he got to the ER, he denied suicidal ideation. It was a mess and I wanted him supervised 24/7 BUT not in a hospital short term because he had long-term problems that he needed time to address. Someone in the posts above suggested a ?regular? boarding school?none would have taken a Goth who talked about the desirability of dying ASAP. He only actually made one weak suicidal gesture, but I take this risk VERY seriously in a teen with major depression.
? What other options had you tried before deciding to go with a placement?
Individual and family therapy from age 7; psychiatrist for meds; elimination of homework and half day school attendance to reduce pressure on him; positive incentives to do well. He was frustrating to community-based therapists because even at age 8, he could ?wait out? a 50 minute session easily. He is the opposite of ADHD?has a high degree of cognitive control and could easily draw adults into power struggles?which he usually won. He was frustratingly non-compliant without ever actually braking many rules when he was younger.
? How did you come across ASR?
I am a professional in the field ?but NOT an employee of ASR or any other residential program?and have many contacts. Therefore, I did not use an educational consultant. Son?s psychiatrist (pdoc) was very specific about the type of program I should seek?reasonably good academic program (because son is neither ADHD nor LD); and ?artsy? rather than athletic type of student; the presence of other kids who have struggled with depression; a structured but not b-mod program with a good talk therapy component; and a ZERO tolerance for violence. I did a lot of reading and on-line research, we visited, interviewed, etc. In the end, I thought ASR was a better match than they did?but it eventually worked out---see below.
? Did anyone at ASR speak with your son or check his mental health history to determine if the program was a fit for him?
ASR consulted with us, interviewed son, and had their pdoc speak directly with his pdoc where we live to try to determine if he was ?too? depressed and/or posed a significant risk of self-harm. ASR was leery of taking him and we were afraid that they would not, but in the end, they agreed to a ?trial? period in base camp.
? Did you ^need to use an escort services, and if so,
We were told by ASR that they did not accept students from escort. They told us if we needed escort, then son needed to go to a wilderness program first. Due to flight restrictions following 9/11, we could not fly with him, so we just told him to get in the van and we drove to MA. There were no problems?he slept most of the way.
o what was the escort services? N/A
o who led you to the service? N/A
o and why did you ^need to us it?N/A
? Did any one warn you not to believe your son if he claimed he was being abused or mistreated?
No, and it was clear to me he was not being abused. As a severely bullied child, I would have known if he were afraid?having witnessed his fear and anxiety for years. He did not LIKE everything about ASR but he clearly was not afraid. If he had even witness abuse, let alone been abused, he would have withdrawn into a nearly catatonic state. As I indicated above, he filed a formal written complaint against a PE teacher for excessive harshness; he would not have done this if he had felt threatened in any way.
? Did anyone warn you that your son would try to manipulate you so that you would pull him from the program?
I was not warned of this but that may be because ASR staff quickly figured out that son?s problems did not stem from our lack of interest, involvement, supervision, or structure. At the end of the first family therapy weekend, son said that although he was annoyed by the rules, he knew he needed to be in a place such as ASR?he said, ? I love you, see you in two months,? turned and walked away. Other students were begging their parents to take them out and promising to ?be good? if the parents did. Son was well aware that we would not give in to that sort of empty promise and so I conclude that ASR did not feel the need to tell us what you have asked about. That does not mean they did not say it to other parents.
? Could you have any uncensored contact with your son?
There were weekly telephone calls by six kids at a time in a room with a counselor. I assumed the counselor was there to make sure the students actually called their parents. I did not feel the role of the staff member was to censor, since no one could possibly keep track of the content of six calls at once and the counselor was NOT on the line?just in the room. Our main problem with the calls is they were initially too short to accomplish anything. I wanted them to be extended and I wanted the counselor to stop telling son how much time he had left because it disrupted his train of thought. I spoke to a supervisor and the calls were not extended until they were extended for everyone, but the counselor stopped telling son?who wears a watch always and could tell time at age 4?how much time was left.
? What was the nature of the "treatment" at ASR?
I do not feel treatment should be in quotes. There was a lot of treatment including group therapy in which son had little to say for 6 months. I do not know that he was ?punished? for this because I had indicated to ASR staff at intake that son?s not talking (when obviously highly verbal in other situations) had been a problem for pervious therapists. I said it would take a long time and great feelings of safety for him to talk in a group. If I have concerns based on what I have read here, it is about the ?Life Steps? which were day long therapy sessions around a specific theme loosely based on Native cultural values. Perhaps because son was interested in philosophy and Native views of the natural world, he did not seem to suffer ill-effects but I am not sure that such intense experiences would be good for all adolescents, particularly if they were not somewhat introspective to begin with.
In terms of individual therapy, son was lucky: I thought some of the ?counselors? were too young and only had Bachelor?s degrees. It was obvious to me that they were getting experience before applying to graduate school. However, son?s primary therapists was an MSW from Smith College and was older than the other counselors. She was excellent comparing very favorably to private therapists in the community?especially because she did not give up on our son?she saw the potential he had to function well as an adult.
The pdoc was the best adolescent psychiatrist I have ever worked with and took a conservative approach to meds?that I appreciated. Also, an issue was whether or not son was bi-polar. ASR was a safe place to trial different medications and bi-polar was ruled out much more quickly than it could have been in an uncontrolled community setting.
? What about the treatment do you feel helped your son with his
problems
The nature of a 24/7 program changes Tx in positive way if it is a good program. Adolescents have many distraction?the internet, music, cell phone, bad companions, etc. and ASR cuts off all access to these distractions. This is helpful to a child who is adept at hiding his feelings and self-distracting when he had negative feelings. In addition, it was helpful to son to realize that other adolescents suffered as he had (he has a very high achieving older sister as did several boys in his peer group) and some had much more difficult problems than he. In addition, after the first 6 months, son worked really hard with the therapy program as did we. I talked weekly with his therapist and frequently (but not weekly) with his pdoc. There is not a lot to do at ASR but school and therapy?for a relatively short amount of time, this can be a good thing IF the adolescent wants to work on internalizing issues. Our son wanted to and did. It comes down to, no matter how good the program, ?you can lead a horse to water, but you can?t make him drink??
? What did ASR say about their program in regards to your son's problems?
Not much at first; they listened and asked a lot of questions, both of us and his pdoc at home. Since almost all problems were internal, there was no ?easy answer? and I would have had no respect for a program staff that spent a couple of hours with my child, who had been in Tx for half his life, and had ?the answer? quickly.
? Did they treat your sons Depression as a behavioral problem or a mental health issue?
A mental health problem with a probable biologic component because he had two non-reactive major depressions prior to age 14. The prognosis in this circumstance is not good which is why I am thankful for every day he is well.
? Did ASR take cutting/suicide attempts seriously or did they dismiss such behavior as manipulation?
This is the account related by others that I find so unbelievable. It was an issue before son was accepted as a student, and at base camp when he began to withdraw completely into himself and have fantasies about dying (but not active attempts), the pdoc went out to base camp and tromped around in 40 degree weather to assess son. His decided that with careful supervision and med adjustment, son was an excellent match for ASR?s program IF the depression could be lifted. I found out later that having the pdoc go to base camp for evaluations was not a common practice and I feel son?s suicidal ideation was taken very, very seriously by everyone: us, the pdoc, AND ASR staff. Any suggestion that his suicidality was not real and a real threat to his life would have resulted in our removing him to an environment in which safety is treated as THE most important thing.
? What type of education did ASR provide?
As I have said, the education was mediocre college prep but since son had been kicked out of one of the top public high schools in the U.S. after 13 days, he wasn?t really taking advantage of education in general in this time of his life. The small class sizes at ASR were helpful; the math teacher was very good?son is interested in math?and was prepared to go on to calculus having three semesters of math at ASR. I think the education probably was OK IF a student was motivated to learn. Son was not. The library was totally inadequate, BTW, but he was not there to do research papers. I think whatever ?loss? compared to a stronger academic program there was, son had 5 semesters of h.s. left when he finished at ASR to regroup. He graduated from h.s. in regular education, on time, and his SATs were fine, so I do not think he was harmed by three semesters at ASR. Would I want this level of education for all 8 semester of h.s.? The answer is no.
? Did ASR use stages or levels, if so, could you explain them in detail?
ASR used peer groups in which a group went through the 14 month program as a unit. If a student had major problems, he/she could be ?dropped? into a peer group behind them, in effect, lengthening the program. This happened to someone in the peer group who son was close to. I believe she used drugs on a home visit. Also, a student from an earlier peer group ?dropped in? to go to Costa Rica. I do not really have an opinion about this practice because son went from being marginal to stay at ASR due to safety issues to a positively progressing student?after about 6 months?so the idea he would be dropped into another peer group never came up?there would have been no reason to discuss it.
Others have talked about the punishments used?however, I would not want 120 adolescents in one place, let alone with problems, without rules and consequences. Son was a bit different because he never broke rules?he just didn?t participate. I have learned on this site that some people feel that self-reflections and self-studies are highly punitive because the student has to remain seated and write in a note book. If a student had ADHD, staying seated might in itself be punitive, but son was a reflective person (when not severely depressed,) and it some ways, writing his thoughts was easier than talking about them. I know he went over his reflection books with his primary on a daily basis when he was on one of these relections. I have read those books and I do not see them as punitive in a negative sense?such as when a student is in time-out?when it?s over, nothing has been gained. I know he gained a great deal from his self-study; it was pivotal; so it was a consequence for something?but it was very productive.
ASR did NOT use points within the levels (Life Steps) which was a major advantage because son had spent many hours figuring out how to defeat the point systems his public schools would devise to try to get him to produce school work. They never worked to help him get anything done?but he was greatly entertained by ?defeating? adults he regarded (with some justification) a hostile to him.
Also, those before the 3rd Life step were ?lower school? and afterwards were ?upper school.? I never exactly understood exactly what each entailed but the general idea was upper school students had more privileges.
? What was the training of the everyday staff?
I don?t know what you mean by everyday staff. See above for comments on training levels of primary counselors. I don?t care what the training of the nonprofessional staff is as long as they undergo thorough background checks and are fingerprinted.
? Is the facility state licensed?
ASR is a specialty boarding school and is accredited as such. Contrary to what others have said, as a private school, it is under the supervision of the Berkshire Community School District. ASR is not JACHO accredited but it should not be; it is not a psychiatric facility.
? Did ASR send "difficult" kids to a more "rigorous" program?
Definitely, and that is a it should be. Not every program is a good match for every adolescent. Had the pdoc found son to be ?too? suicidal to be maintained in an unlocked facility, he would have had to go elsewhere until his meds were effective. I?m glad that didn?t happen but recognize the appropriateness of restaffing students as a way to keep the population and the program capabilities in sync.
The day before our first parent visit, a student in son?s peer group hit another student and then a counselor. He was gone in 3 hours. I was sorry for him?but had ASR not had a ZERO tolerance for hitting others, my son would never have felt safe enough to talk.
? What types of consequences did ASR use and for what behaviors?
In addition to what I put under your level question, ASR used consequences such as washing dishes, weeding the garden, and loss of school store as punishments. Because son was not a minor rule infraction sort, I think he did not receive many of these sorts of punishments. That was his pattern in public school?internalizing problems but no specific rule breaking.
This time, I put the whole thing in a WORD file so I could not lose the answers if this does not work.
still,
JustaMom
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Hmm... nope.
Girl with arms twisted behind her back vid (http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cn_LFdbYLqw&mode=related&search=) still trumps that.
Nice try, though.
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What the hell is wrong with you people?
You ask Justamom to answer some questions- she takes the time to do just that and yet you either don't believe her or ridicule her.
I guess it kills you that her son, 4 years later has gotten his life together and is doing well. So has mine. Justamom, our family also had the same therapist that your son had, which BTW was the 1st therapist he EVER clicked with since his issues started at age 7. I attribute much of his success in the program to her.
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What the hell is wrong with you people?
You ask Justamom to answer some questions- she takes the time to do just that and yet you either don't believe her or ridicule her.
I guess it kills you that her son, 4 years later has gotten his life together and is doing well. So has mine. Justamom, our family also had the same therapist that your son had, which BTW was the 1st therapist he EVER clicked with since his issues started at age 7. I attribute much of his success in the program to her.
Parents get these responses because most people here are program survivors or ex-staff. You must understand that many were abused in ways that resemble Abu-ghraib, others were emotionally damaged.
With that said, if you feel ridiculed just ignore the particular post. I'm asking questions because I'm curious as to the thinking of program-parents and the programs themselves.
I'll have some more questions later but in the meantime I would suggest that both of you register and read some survivor testimonies of other programs. This will give you a better understanding of the hostility some Pro-program parents face here.
It takes thick skin to stick around here but it's worth it, so please do stick around.
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He had two major depressions by the time he was 14; he was a ?different? and musically gifted child who was bullied. As a defense, he started dressing like a Goth and hanging out with Goths?he had a lot of suicidal ideation. The public high school would not keep him because of his suicidal talk and when he got to the ER, he denied suicidal ideation. It was a mess and I wanted him supervised 24/7 BUT not in a hospital short term because he had long-term problems that he needed time to address. Someone in the posts above suggested a ?regular? boarding school?none would have taken a Goth who talked about the desirability of dying ASAP. He only actually made one weak suicidal gesture, but I take this risk VERY seriously in a teen with major depression.
If this is a kid who was truly suicidal then he belongs in a hospital setting, not 'counseled' by a bunch of unqualified kids and unqualifed or underqualifed staff.
Individual and family therapy from age 7; psychiatrist for meds; elimination of homework and half day school attendance to reduce pressure on him; positive incentives to do well. He was frustrating to community-based therapists because even at age 8, he could ?wait out? a 50 minute session easily. He is the opposite of ADHD?has a high degree of cognitive control and could easily draw adults into power struggles?which he usually won. He was frustratingly non-compliant without ever actually braking many rules when he was younger.
So you had a highly intelligent, unique, non-compliant kid who was driving you nuts. You say he's suicidal and your solution is to send him somwhere where complaince is forced and education is limited?
I am a professional in the field ?but NOT an employee of ASR or any other residential program?and have many contacts. Therefore, I did not use an educational consultant. Son?s psychiatrist (pdoc) was very specific about the type of program I should seek?reasonably good academic program (because son is neither ADHD nor LD); and ?artsy? rather than athletic type of student; the presence of other kids who have struggled with depression; a structured but not b-mod program with a good talk therapy component; and a ZERO tolerance for violence. I did a lot of reading and on-line research, we visited, interviewed, etc. In the end, I thought ASR was a better match than they did?but it eventually worked out---see below.
And yet look what you ended up with.
No, and it was clear to me he was not being abused. As a severely bullied child, I would have known if he were afraid?having witnessed his fear and anxiety for years. He did not LIKE everything about ASR but he clearly was not afraid. If he had even witness abuse, let alone been abused, he would have withdrawn into a nearly catatonic state. As I indicated above, he filed a formal written complaint against a PE teacher for excessive harshness; he would not have done this if he had felt threatened in any way.
Isolation and Groupthink is used to gain compliance. The seminars and peer culture are extremely effective in this regard.
I was not warned of this but that may be because ASR staff quickly figured out that son?s problems did not stem from our lack of interest, involvement, supervision, or structure. At the end of the first family therapy weekend, son said that although he was annoyed by the rules, he knew he needed to be in a place such as ASR?he said, ? I love you, see you in two months,? turned and walked away. Other students were begging their parents to take them out and promising to ?be good? if the parents did. Son was well aware that we would not give in to that sort of empty promise and so I conclude that ASR did not feel the need to tell us what you have asked about. That does not mean they did not say it to other parents.
Sounds like a scene out of Straight.
There were weekly telephone calls by six kids at a time in a room with a counselor. I assumed the counselor was there to make sure the students actually called their parents. I did not feel the role of the staff member was to censor, since no one could possibly keep track of the content of six calls at once and the counselor was NOT on the line?just in the room. Our main problem with the calls is they were initially too short to accomplish anything. I wanted them to be extended and I wanted the counselor to stop telling son how much time he had left because it disrupted his train of thought. I spoke to a supervisor and the calls were not extended until they were extended for everyone, but the counselor stopped telling son?who wears a watch always and could tell time at age 4?how much time was left.
Were you told to report suspicious conversations or attempts to get you to pull him out?
I do not feel treatment should be in quotes. There was a lot of treatment including group therapy in which son had little to say for 6 months. I do not know that he was ?punished? for this because I had indicated to ASR staff at intake that son?s not talking (when obviously highly verbal in other situations) had been a problem for pervious therapists. I said it would take a long time and great feelings of safety for him to talk in a group.
That's why the need for isolation, groupthink, LifeSteps. Strongwilled kid, non communicative, non compliant...isolate him enough, love bomb him enough, groupthink him enough and he'll come 'round.
If I have concerns based on what I have read here, it is about the ?Life Steps? which were day long therapy sessions around a specific theme loosely based on Native cultural values. Perhaps because son was interested in philosophy and Native views of the natural world, he did not seem to suffer ill-effects but I am not sure that such intense experiences would be good for all adolescents, particularly if they were not somewhat introspective to begin with.
Which it sounds like your son was. That kind of "therapy" was what damaged me the most. It was also the one that took me longest to understand the ill effects of. I mean, I was 'headed down the wrong path' right? I needed a 'wake up call', right? I was going to be 'deadinsaneorinjail' if I didn't realize my druggie ways, right? They were all just trying to "help" me, right? And everyone else seemed to think it was what I needed to do. I had no outside reference to bounce anything off of. I was isolated in an environment where everyone thought the exact same way and I wasn't going to be accepted until I did too.
In terms of individual therapy, son was lucky: I thought some of the ?counselors? were too young and only had Bachelor?s degrees. It was obvious to me that they were getting experience before applying to graduate school. However, son?s primary therapists was an MSW from Smith College and was older than the other counselors. She was excellent comparing very favorably to private therapists in the community?especially because she did not give up on our son?she saw the potential he had to function well as an adult.
The pdoc was the best adolescent psychiatrist I have ever worked with and took a conservative approach to meds?that I appreciated. Also, an issue was whether or not son was bi-polar. ASR was a safe place to trial different medications and bi-polar was ruled out much more quickly than it could have been in an uncontrolled community setting.
I'm glad you were lucky, but that sounds like it's all it was.....luck.
The nature of a 24/7 program changes Tx in positive way if it is a good program. Adolescents have many distraction?the internet, music, cell phone, bad companions, etc. and ASR cuts off all access to these distractions. This is helpful to a child who is adept at hiding his feelings and self-distracting when he had negative feelings. In addition, it was helpful to son to realize that other adolescents suffered as he had (he has a very high achieving older sister as did several boys in his peer group) and some had much more difficult problems than he.
This just sounds more and more like this was a kid who wasn't turning out like Mommy and Daddy wanted. Big sis was a success in their eyes, but this kid was....*gasp* GOTH!!!!:o :roll: God forbid we let out kids grow up to be individuals. God forbid they develop a mind of their own.
In addition, after the first 6 months, son worked really hard with the therapy program as did we. I talked weekly with his therapist and frequently (but not weekly) with his pdoc.
How often do you speak to him?
There is not a lot to do at ASR but school and therapy
Isolation and groupthink. Read up...
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/lifton-criteria (http://www.ex-cult.org/General/lifton-criteria)
1. MILIEU CONTROL
the most basic feature is the control of human communication within
and environment if the control is extremely intense, it becomes
internalized control -- an attempt to manage an individual's inner
communication control over all a person sees, hears, reads, writes
(information control)
creates conflicts in respect to individual autonomy
groups express this in several ways: Group process, isolation from
other people, psychological pressure, geographical distance or
unavailable transportation, sometimes physical pressure
often a sequence of events, such as seminars, lectures, group
encounters, which become increasingly intense and increasingly
isolated, making it extremely difficult-- both physically and
psychologically--for one to leave.
sets up a sense of antagonism with the outside world; it's us
against them
closely connected to the process of individual change (of personality)
4. CONFESSION
cultic confession is carried beyond its ordinary religious, legal
and therapeutic expressions to the point of becoming a cult in itself
sessions in which one confesses to one's sin are accompanied by
patterns of criticism and self-criticism, generally transpiring within
small groups with an active and dynamic thrust toward personal change
is an act of symbolic self-surrender
makes it virtually impossible to attain a reasonable balance between
worth and humility
a young person confessing to various sins of pre-cultic existence can
both believe in those sins and be covering over other ideas and
feelings that s/he is either unaware of or reluctant to discuss
often a person will confess to lesser sins while holding on to other
secrets (often criticisms/questions/doubts about the group/leaders
that may cause them not to advance to a leadership position)
"the more I accuse myself, the more I have a right to judge you"
ASR used peer groups in which a group went through the 14 month program as a unit. If a student had major problems, he/she could be ?dropped? into a peer group behind them, in effect, lengthening the program. This happened to someone in the peer group who son was close to. I believe she used drugs on a home visit. Also, a student from an earlier peer group ?dropped in? to go to Costa Rica. I do not really have an opinion about this practice because son went from being marginal to stay at ASR due to safety issues to a positively progressing student?after about 6 months?so the idea he would be dropped into another peer group never came up?there would have been no reason to discuss it.
This is just like Straight. The phases. As long as you tow the program line, you'll be fine but if you dare develop any critical thinking skills or begin to question the dogma, you're screwed.
Others have talked about the punishments used?however, I would not want 120 adolescents in one place, let alone with problems, without rules and consequences. Son was a bit different because he never broke rules?he just didn?t participate. I have learned on this site that some people feel that self-reflections and self-studies are highly punitive because the student has to remain seated and write in a note book. If a student had ADHD, staying seated might in itself be punitive, but son was a reflective person (when not severely depressed,) and it some ways, writing his thoughts was easier than talking about them. I know he went over his reflection books with his primary on a daily basis when he was on one of these relections. I have read those books and I do not see them as punitive in a negative sense?such as when a student is in time-out?when it?s over, nothing has been gained. I know he gained a great deal from his self-study; it was pivotal; so it was a consequence for something?but it was very productive.
they're designed as stopthink procedures. A way to 'internalize' what they've "learned about themselves". Newage psychobabble bullshit.
ASR did NOT use points within the levels (Life Steps) which was a major advantage because son had spent many hours figuring out how to defeat the point systems his public schools would devise to try to get him to produce school work. They never worked to help him get anything done?but he was greatly entertained by ?defeating? adults he regarded (with some justification) a hostile to him.
Again, it sounds like you had a bright, unique kid who wasn't doing what you wanted him to do. No wonder he was suicidal. People trying to change who he is all the damn time. Let him be!! This seems much more about control and how the kid reflects on the parent than anything else, IMO.
Also, those before the 3rd Life step were ?lower school? and afterwards were ?upper school.? I never exactly understood exactly what each entailed but the general idea was upper school students had more privileges.
At Straight it was "oldcomers" and "newcomers".
I don?t know what you mean by everyday staff. See above for comments on training levels of primary counselors. I don?t care what the training of the nonprofessional staff is as long as they undergo thorough background checks and are fingerprinted.
You don't seem to know or care much about the qualifications of these people. You also don't seem to interested in how they bring about these changes in kids...as long as they do. I keep hearing you say "I don't know", or "I never really did understand that". You pretty much just "trusted the process", huh?
ASR is a specialty boarding school and is accredited as such. Contrary to what others have said, as a private school, it is under the supervision of the Berkshire Community School District. ASR is not JACHO accredited but it should not be; it is not a psychiatric facility.
You're asking for someone to watch you kid "24/7", manage meds and treat his suicidal ideations, but it shouldn't be licensed at therapeutic????:o
? Did ASR send "difficult" kids to a more "rigorous" program?
Definitely, and that is a it should be.
If we can't break 'em one way, we've got others.
? What types of consequences did ASR use and for what behaviors?
In addition to what I put under your level question, ASR used consequences such as washing dishes, weeding the garden, and loss of school store as punishments. Because son was not a minor rule infraction sort, I think he did not receive many of these sorts of punishments. That was his pattern in public school?internalizing problems but no specific rule breaking.
Conseqences are more to do with the peer culture and group conformity. You bond with these people because it's human nature. They're the only social contact you have so if you're ostricised from even them (in addition to your family, friends, home) it's a very powerful weapon.
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J
He had two major depressions by the time he was 14; he was a ?different? and musically gifted child who was bullied. As a defense, he started dressing like a Goth and hanging out with Goths?he had a lot of suicidal ideation. The public high school would not keep him because of his suicidal talk and when he got to the ER, he denied suicidal ideation. It was a mess and I wanted him supervised 24/7 BUT not in a hospital short term because he had long-term problems that he needed time to address. Someone in the posts above suggested a ?regular? boarding school?none would have taken a Goth who talked about the desirability of dying ASAP. He only actually made one weak suicidal gesture, but I take this risk VERY seriously in a teen with major depression.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t= ... c&start=60 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=15260&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60)
There were more kids who were dangers to themselves. I honestly think ASR is very lucky in that no one has succeeded in committing suicide. I can tell you first hand that for someone with major depression ASR could drive you past breaking point easily. It seemed like they pick and chose who they took seriously about being suicidal. I was not taken seriously, and had my roommate not been in the room one day, I may well have taken my life. I do not say that to evoke pity or anything else like that, and I was not using it to "manipulate" ( a favorite ASR term)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t= ... c&start=60 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=15260&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60)
Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
1) What is self-study?
2) Describe this Escorting more please?
3) Why was a student doing the escorting of a self-harming/suicidal resident and not a staff member?
A self study was the worst of the three major consequences. (reflection, challenge, self study). You had work projects, all free time was spent at your table, facing the wall. Lots of writing assignments. Loss of all privileges. Standing during all meetings. You most likely had strict bans
Basically I had to take her back to the dorm and be with her while she gathered up her things and changed, etc. I don't remember if she showered or not. I was basically there to make sure she didn't attempt again.
I don't know why they had me do it. I was "trusted" at that point, and honestly... probably a better choice than some of the staff.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t= ... r&start=15 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=2826&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=asr&start=15)
yes, they did. to a large degree. Dean Kent (the staff mentioned in the article) was gone by the time i had arrived. (he was there in 1997, and i got to ASR in Cummington, MA on January 5th of 1998) i had heard from other students about Dean, that he was a really nice guy but fired b/c he'd called DSS on them. Brett Carey was still the Dean of Student Life when i arrived, and his wife Lisa also helped in the fitness department & was pregnant when i first arrived. They had 2 other daughters, Madison & Carly. The whole thought was a bit frightening, because when we had the 2 hour group "therapy" sessions 2 times a week, they were harsh and abusive to say the least. All of us students would be split into 2 groups, and we'd be rounded up in a circle to get screamed at, belittled and dehumanized. They called it "confrontational", although it was more like verbal abuse and intentional slaughtering.
i was very afraid while i was there, as a student with an extensive sexual abuse history involving rape & incest, i was constantly the target of this slaughtering, esp. b/c i was overweight at the time. needless to say, i left ASR with anorexia some 19 months later.
Brett & other students were all allowed to scream vulgarities at you, called you a "fat bitch, slut," and all. at the age of 15 i learned the word "dildo" while playing scrabble with Brett. One of my roomates claimed that Brett had forced her into sexual operations.
Most of all, it was excusable for students to haze each other.
It was almost looked at as funny. One Staff named Kristen Merhoff gave me funny looks and made sarcastic and patronizing comments when i'd opened up to her about my eating disorder.
Later on, a staff named Amy Robichaud would scream at me for ruining my life, pushing everyone away, talking about how i was a disasterous person, unworthy of being loved. To say the least, she was an abusive person, much alike a person in the throws of an addiction like alchoholism & drug addictions, both of which she admittedly had. There was a great deal of favoritism there, even staff who seemed to want to gain the approval of certain students.
The labor & sleep deprivation that was mentioned in the article is most likely in reference to the "Lifesteps". These were so called "workshops" it was mandatory for all students to attend. Staff and students would be expected to open up there deepest and most unknown
secrets for the sake of "growing". It's true, there was little sleeping allowed & often i myself left feeling shamed & ridiculed.
i was one of the main targets in that school the entire time i was there, a target of hazing & was even blamed for a student breaking into the med office and comsuming large quantities of my prescriptions. For the first 5 months i was there, you could litterally leave, go smoke 1/2 a pack of cigarettes, drop a couple tabs of acid, take like 5 hits off a joint come back & they wouldn't even realize it.
ASR is, to say the least, a very very fucked up place. i have several more things to say, but this whole thing would take eons.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t= ... r&start=30 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=2826&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=asr&start=30)
I am a former student at ASR. I was in the first peer group, 97-98. My experience there haunts me to this day. I have read many articles that refer to the "old staff" and "new staff". I cannot speak for the way ASR is run now, being 2004, but I can speak for how it was run in 97 and 98. Let me start by saying that I am not an angry, defiant kid who is trying to start trouble for ASR. I have graduated high school and am about to graduate college and enter law school. I don't get into trouble, I am a productive member of society, and want people to know the truth. We were badgered, belittled, sworn at, made to stay up all night during "life steps" and given only small rations of food, had all calls to our parents monitored by staff and had the phone hung up on us if we tried to complain to our parents about these things, scrutinized and humiliated on a daily basis. Our mail was read, staff lost their voices by yelling so loudly at us, I personally was called a "slut", a rich little Daddysgirl, a doormat, told my dad tried to buy my love with money, made to discuss personal sexual and private experiences in group sessions with other peers, made to write a ten page paper by hand about what my "issues" were, and if the staff didn't like it, I started over ( this was because I was too close to my friend there, and they put us on bans so we couldn't talk to each other). People, whomever wants to hear specific stories about all of these things, I would be more than happy to share with you!!! email me at [email protected] (http://mailto:[email protected]) i bet i can help you get her out of there
I also graduated from ASR very recently on August the 6th. And I can tell you right now that any kid who complained, their parents were manipulated right out of believing them. There was extreme emotional abuse there, and the only reason anyone's behavior was modified was because they were scared shitless of staying there longer or going to a worse program. We were so scared, your own friends turned against you and you couldnt trust them. The group sessions were awful. One of my friends who had issues with sleeping around was in group and the counselor in the room told her that she might as well keep a mattress tied to her back. Daily, I heard awful things about myself and everyday I was just so sad. Places like this are awful and they need to be stopped. ASR isnt even the worst of them but they all need to go.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t= ... r&start=60 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=2826&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=asr&start=60)
I am a an ASR graduate. I graduated in October of 03. At the end of the program I believed that ASR had done a lot for me. Looking back I am shocked that I ever thought that. I was made to turn against my friends and turn them in for the slightest rule breaking (for example listening to music). In group we were often degraded and yelled at, supposedly to make us better. Several times I was suicidal and instead of worrying they told me I was lying and being manipulative. In one group eveyone was allowed to go around and say their judgements against everyone else things like "youre a fat slut". That group was horrible. You were scared into being good and behaving. I'm not sure why I thought this place was so great, I feel as if I was brainwashed in a way.
The wilderness experience was horrible. I spent over 40 days in the outdoors being punished for any little thing we did wrong. My first day I had to run 20 minutes and when I stopped the counselers screamed at me and when i vomited they didnt care. just told me i shouldt have drank so muich water.
[
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I really do not appreciate the sarcasm. I am a professional in the field and had resources to get help for my son that many parents do not have--then I get the old saw that "psychologists' kids are always nuts."
Being a Goth in appearance was not a problem to me--I have never controlled my kids' appearance--it is a typicl adolescent thing they outgrow when they find out the "real, adult world" (which they wish to be part of--brainwashed there I guess, too, to want a decent life with even a few luxuries). I will NOT tell you the ways in which my son is different because it could be used to identify him. He was NOT driving me nuts--you do not read carefully, he was driving teachers nuts. I worked with his pdoc here to here those half day attendance policies.
I worked the system for him not against him.
Finally, I would not wish his older sister NOT to achieve-she has a life, too. The issue of nature vs nurture comes into play--both our children are adopted and therefore, when they have very different temperaments and abilities, one can be a bit more objective than in some ways--they came to us as infants but hard-wired for certain gifts and problems (tendency to depression--for example.)
That you can think a college student living in NYC with all that is there--is still brain washed--is just ridiculous. One of the reasons he is so successful IMO is that we got him into a program BEFORE he developed a drug habit trying to dull his own pain. However, since he left ASR, he has been in the mainstream of adolescent society and has had no problems with substance use or anything else that I would consider outside the norm for late adolescence.
You ask me to look at OTHER programs--why should I--I didn't choose other programs, I chose this one. I believe that there are bad programs--that is why I worked so hard to find a GOOD MATCH for him. I detail how concerned ASR and their pdoc (who was male, not female) were with his suicidal ideation and you tell me he should have been hospitalized--thanks for the advice six years after the fact. He was hospitalized and released in 36 hours--with no improvement--Duh, what is supposed to happen in 36 hours???
Finally, and this is what I do not think you get-- depression and adolescence DISRUPTED a relationship of love. Yes, he had been in therapy but that was mainly to cope with going to school and despite everything I could do, the bullying was not acknowledged and not stopped. His ASR reflections are full of the pain he experienced in public school and anger at adults, including me, for not protecting him better. If I feel guilty, it is about him begging me to home school him starting in second grade. I did not think it would work and neither did any of the professionals I consulted. Maybe we were wrong: it might have been better to home school but that is not what I did.
After ASR, the loving relationship was restored--opps--I forgot, you do not think we are a loving family--we are all just brain washed zombies. Maybe some of your parents had their own problems and "sent you away." We did not do that, and we are emotionally together now, even though we have three different addresses. Perhaps that is what your life lacks.
You want to dwell in your past pain. I look forward to BOTH my children's lives as adults. I think both will be happy and successful in very different fields. You are wrong that I did not accept my son--I realized by the time he was three that he was significantly different than other children. I saw his gifts and how hard it was going to be for him to get to adulthood where he could LIVE FREE because children, at least in public school, are anything but free. His gifts were not appreciated and he was demeaned. NOW he is free, as an adult, to be what he wants--as is his sister--but because she is so much more "mainstream," it was not a struggle for her.
No parent owns a child. I feel it is a parental responsibility to help each child be his/her best. In our case, we took what the adoption agency offered, and received two unique and wonderful individuals. He called me last week--mid-week, which is unusual-- because he had a problem he wanted to discuss (he is not in therapy, BTW.) I listened, empathized with his dilemma, gave my opinion, and he said, "Thank you for your perspective--I'll let you know what I decide." That is NOT a brainwashed young adult nor is it one who resent his parents.
In the span of my son's life, ASR is regarded by him as an interlude in which he figured out a lot of things that he needed to IN ORDER TO BE HIS OWN PERSON. His affection and continued contact with some members of his peer group suggest to me that ASR is not, at least for everyone, the nightmare you portray.
All I can say is I have no intention of registering at this site. You live in your past pain--and I feel sorry for you--but time only goes in one direction. No matter what happened to you, if you want a life, you have to go forward--not spend your time verbally abusing a parent who is relating things that are really quite "proven" by a life lived well so far, but one that provides hard evidence in the opposite direction of your beliefs--so you demean and deride me as a "rebuttal." It is not a rebuttal at all because he is living out his childhood dream in NYC. All this at ASR happened to my son over 5 years ago and he is OK, actually much better than just OK--I wish you were, too, but you obviously are not.
Still
JustaMom
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I really do not appreciate the sarcasm. I am a professional in the field and had resources to get help for my son that many parents do not have--then I get the old saw that "psychologists' kids are always nuts."
Yeah well, I'm sure the kids in ASR didn't appreciate the degredation and humiliation. It's for your own good.
Finally, I would not wish his older sister NOT to achieve-she has a life, too.
Me neither and I have no idea how you would get that out of what I posted. I meant that it seems that 'achievement' (according to your standards) is very important to you and having a type A sister must have made that even harder on him.
That you can think a college student living in NYC with all that is there--is still brain washed--is just ridiculous. One of the reasons he is so successful IMO is that we got him into a program BEFORE he developed a drug habit trying to dull his own pain. However, since he left ASR, he has been in the mainstream of adolescent society and has had no problems with substance use or anything else that I would consider outside the norm for late adolescence.
I was brainwashed for a long damn time after I got out. It happens. All the time.
You ask me to look at OTHER programs--why should I--I didn't choose other programs, I chose this one. I believe that there are bad programs--that is why I worked so hard to find a GOOD MATCH for him.
I asked you to see the similarities between the programs. You don't want to even look. Ok.
I detail how concerned ASR and their pdoc (who was male, not female) were with his suicidal ideation and you tell me he should have been hospitalized--thanks for the advice six years after the fact. He was hospitalized and released in 36 hours--with no improvement--Duh, what is supposed to happen in 36 hours???
I'm saying that the last place a depressed, suicidal kid needs to be is somewhere that employs such tactics as LifeSteps, isolation and humiliation.
Perhaps that is what your life lacks.
You want to dwell in your past pain.
You live in your past pain--and I feel sorry for you--but time only goes in one direction. No matter what happened to you, if you want a life, you have to go forward--not spend your time verbally abusing a parent who is relating things that are really quite "proven" by a life lived well so far, but one that provides hard evidence in the opposite direction of your beliefs--so you demean and deride me as a "rebuttal." It is not a rebuttal at all because he is living out his childhood dream in NYC. All this at ASR happened to my son over 5 years ago and he is OK, actually much better than just OK--I wish you were, too, but you obviously are not.
Still
JustaMom
Why do you assume that I'm "not OK"? I'm fine. I've got two grown kids (sorry for the repeat folks, I know y'all have heard this a hunnert times now) who somehow managed to make it through adolescence without benefit of a program....even though both sets of grandparents (former program parents) and some of her school counselors were telling me she'd DIE if I didn't ship off my oldest one. She's now a CNA working on her LPN to continue to her RN and ARNP. Li'l sis is working for any attorney and getting ready to start nursing school in about 6 months. Hubby of 16 years and I are quite content. I come here to warn prospective marks about these places. The more I read about them, the more I realize that nothing much has changed in 20 some years except they've gotten better at marketing themselves.
All I can say is I have no intention of registering at this site.
Um, ok. I could care less. It's a common thread amongst y'all program parents. Stick your head in the sand.
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Anne, if you want to argue with fictional characters, I've got a couple.
Shouldn't it also be really obvious by that this point that her author has her responding to allegations that aren't even made? I'll wager most of these responses are written well in advance.
No subtlety or finesse at all. :roll:
JustAMom/guest parent's author: Spend some time playing real time role-playing games like Paranoia or D&D, or possibly some forum RPs, before coming on here. Your lack of skill is appalling. Come back when you can imitate a human being properly. Before that, GTFO.
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Anne, if you want to argue with fictional characters, I've got a couple.
Shouldn't it also be really obvious by that this point that her author has her responding to allegations that aren't even made? I'll wager most of these responses are written well in advance.
No subtlety or finesse at all. :roll:
Yeah, but I welcome the opportunity to keep bumping the ASR threads since the Who is hellbent on distracting everyone.
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Well bye justamom, it seems that you just can't face any criticism of your program. Everything you have said about your son seems to be related to his school experience(not his fault) and depression(not his fault). I to suffered(suffer) with depression and I'm not dead. My mom was worried but never desperate, which is probable why I never got programed. Point is his problems were not things he needed to fix it was all environment. The only reason you know about his school problems is because he was free to tell you about those problems. Not so in a program like ASR that uses peer-pressure as the backbone of the program. Don't believe me just read what you wrote about "peer-groups"(?lower school? "upper school") and Anne's quotes.
Your glowing assignment of ASR is convincing but doesn't jive with the testimony of others who went to ASR or other programs. The reason I asked you to look at other programs was to understand the hostility here and to also see the similarities ASR has to confirmed abusive programs like Straight or CEDU, a program that resembles ASR to a frighting degree. If you were to read some other survivor stories you understand the whole brainwashing thing too.
I'm not going to pressure you to stick around but I will post some more questions later hoping that you will answer them.
Have any of you guys watched the French documentary on Landmark Education, I swear that justamom(and son) sounds like that lady who gave such a glowing account of her Landmark experience just before breaking down after she was shown how much it resembled a regular cult
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I will NOT tell you the ways in which my son is different because it could be used to identify him
What makes you think we're trying to identify your son?
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Have any of you guys watched the French documentary on Landmark Education, I swear that justamom(and son) sounds like that lady who gave such a glowing account of her Landmark experience just before breaking down after she was shown how much it resembled a regular cult
http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?opti ... emid=12url (http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1243&Itemid=12url)
I hadn't heard of that before. It's pretty interesting. Much of what they are describing occurs in TBSs.
more about landmark here.
http://www.rickross.com/groups/landmark.html (http://www.rickross.com/groups/landmark.html)
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Well said ?Justamom? Thank you for stopping by to share your experience, your account was similar to my daughters experience.
. I am truly sorry you were ridiculed for sharing and wished I could had warned you, but expected it after reading the answers. Kids (and their parents) who do well are not really accepted here as many here live in the past and have a difficult time seeing that change has occurred systematically since the 70?s (with some of these schools) and if they didn?t have a similar experience they cannot relate.
Your son sounds like he really thrived there and then struck out on his own, you must be proud. I am intimately aware of the adoption issues and applaud you for taking the time to care about your children enough to make that decision. So many parents give up if local services fail to yield a positive result or change in hope that things improve for them and all the long the child suffers their way thru. You took a proactive approach because you cared and I can guarantee you will never regret the time you lost with your son at ASR. Seeing my daughter grow and move on with her life is a pure joy to me and makes up for the lost time and the time we presently spend together. I can?t say what path she would be on if she had never attended ASR but I know what path she is on today.
Thanks again, it is a breath of fresh air here at fornits
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Compare this description of ASR to the LGATs described on the Cult Awareness and Information Center. :o :scared:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t= ... &start=300 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=2826&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=asr&start=300)
Perhaps as a former student/client/survivor/inmate/whatever you want to call it, I can shed some light on the subject. I was in peer group 17, I was at ASR from October of 2000 to December of 2001. During my stay I was under the impression that the lifesteps were essentially unchanged from the start of the program up until then. I can't say anything about 2002 and onward. As was said before, they were about anger, insecurities, reconnecting with core self, (aka inner child) and forgiveness. They were held in the library in the academic building, and generally started around mid evening on a friday or saturday night, and lasted between 12 and 24 hours. Hard to tell exactly because they made a policy of taking our watches beforehand. All I know was that at the latest, we were asleep in our beds by the normal lights out the next night, except for the 4th lifestep, where we slept in tents overnight outside the library. That was about 36 hours altogether.
They definitely fed us, slightly less than usual, but more than adequate for a day's nutrition. As for sleep deprivation, we were up way past our bedtimes, which were tightly regulated, so any alterations to the routine were quite noticeable. While we were up late, full of anxiety and stress, we were subjected to a lot of yelling, a lot of exercises and workshops designed to illustrate how our behaviors were hurting us. There was a lot of crying, screaming, cursing, quiet time for writing, (read: kids can't talk, counselors walk around reading what's being written and pontificating about the topics being written about. My point is that it was very intense and quite overwhelming. I don't remember every single detail of the experiences, but I will try to include what I can.
The most memorable thing about the first lifestep was an exercise called dyads. This involved pairing up with a buddy and holding them while screaming at the top of our lungs all the things we hated our parents and ourselves for, for minutes at a time. I distinctly remember spitting up blood and being encouraged to continue screaming. There were also short group therapy sessions, there were exercises involving listing all the things our parents had ever done to hurt us, focusing on all the pain and suffering that we'd ever felt and how angry it made us. After all of us were exhausted we read letters our parents sent us about how much they loved us and why they chose to send us away. Needless to say there was a lot of crying.
The second lifestep had exercises where we had to sit in a circle, while one of us would walk around from person to person to hear whether that one or this one considered them a "giver" or a "taker". After we'd all judged each other we had to say to people why we felt this way about them. Some of this took the form of harsh criticism masked as praise. There were exercises involving how we judge ourselves and how we present ourselves to others. We had to wear cards around our necks that labeled us as one thing or another to supposedly demonstrate how restrictive the images we present to people can be. I remember carving images into cubes of sandstone to symbolize all the good qualities we had and who we really were. I also remember listening to Enya and other new age music, and doing a warped guided meditation which, rather than enhancing relaxation heightens emotions like guilt, sadness and fear. It was either in this lifestep or the third that we did an exercise involving manic, happy music, and all of us being instructed to smile until it started to hurt, and walk around laughing and smiling and looking at each other for about 5-10 minutes with the song on repeat. By the end many were crying, some were on the verge of hysteria.
The third lifestep was probably the most traumatic and damaging. It involved internalizing immense guilt. We had to write down anything and everything that we'd ever done to hurt ourselves, told how horrible it was, then forced to look at childhood pictures of ourselves that our parents had mailed to the school. Sitting there for what seemed like hours being yelled at because all the mistakes, impulses, and self destruction we'd gone through were "horrible things that we, as horrible people had done to the innocent children that we were" We were told to imagine all these wrongdoings being visited upon these children, as if we'd done them to some helpless little kid ourselves. Hurting yourself because you're horribly depressed is suddenly akin to torturing preschoolers. Talk about cognitive dissonance! We had to draw a symbolic portrait of ourselves involving all our interests, loves, etc., then tack the childhood picture to it. The other focus of this lifestep was the emotional manipulations or games that we use in an attempt to fill holes in our lives. We acted out all the games we each typically used, and had our peer group guess which one. Games such as playing the victim, using intimidation, attention games, the "everything is fine" game, etc.
The fourth lifestep involved a modified Native American sweat ritual. One of these took place before the first lifestep, almost a pre lifestep. This ritual was kind of like group therapy in a sauna, with some new age religious undertones. We were smudged with sage before entering the sweat lodge, there was a little discussion about purification. We talked about grudges we held, and how they weighed us down. To illustrate this concept physically, we took a long walk in the woods late at night, each of us carrying a rock about the size of a large melon and being lectured to about how we weigh ourselves down by not letting things go. We weren't allowed to put down the rocks, and the walk lasted somewhere between 1 and 2 hours. Being able to set down the rock was supposed to symbolize how good it feels to let go of anger and resentment. Perfect timing, the program's almost over, let's assuage some of the anger that comes from having a year of your life stolen.
All in all I would say that these lifesteps are a clear indication of the cult like way that the academy is run. In addition I would like to comment on the pervasive nature of the levels and punishment/reward system that was in effect. Profanity was punishable by doing pushups, we were continually encouraged to report each other for anything and everything, for our own good. Dish duty would be assigned for having a shirt untucked or for not cleaning the dorm before breakfast adequately. Being late to meetings or classes had similar consequences. Consequences, not punishments. There was no such thing as a punishment at ASR, just like there were no rules, only Agreements. Since you agreed to not do this or that, you had already accepted the consequence for breaking the agreement. I don't remember ever signing a contract, but then again, since as a minor you don't really have rights or the ability to sign contracts, none of that matters. The point is, it was a very effective technique for fostering obedience through guilt. You didn't just fuck up, you went back on your word and let down the school. The rule system was so pervasive it was difficult to make it through an entire day without breaking at least one. Privileges were removed at the drop of a hat. If you read too many books, you were avoiding people, and weren't allowed to read for pleasure. If you were rude or rowdy you might go on a restriction and lose the privilege of any and all recreational activity for between 1 and 4 weeks. Restrictions could involve being on "bans" with groups or individuals in the school, such as "bans with all lower school students", or all females, all males, etc. You couldn't talk to people you were on bans with or you faced serious consquences. This often caused difficulty in coordinating schoolwork with therapy. Restrictions ended when counselors felt you'd accepted whatever you'd done was horribly wrong and you felt horrible about it/learned something. Then you'd tell the whole school about it and apologize at the end of the day meeting.
Academics are another concern. The options for classes were limited, the teachers often weren't qualified. My chemistry teacher was an English major who was only a chapter ahead of the class each week. He was filling in until they found someone who knew chemistry. Most of the teachers, even those qualified to teach their subject, did not know how to deal with kids with learning disabilities, or kids who acted out constantly. This had a negative effect on the amount of actual teaching that got done. Student's writings, paintings, etc. were often censored for being to dark, too imagey, too negative, too sexual, etc. Reading material was restricted, the library was full of outdated books and random novels, all of it unorganized. On numerous occasions books I'd found in the library were confiscated, apparently even some of them weren't appropriate.
Inmates faced a barrage of emotional abuse from counselors and students alike. Students tried to curry favor by enforcing rules and ratting on others. Once an accusation of rulebreaking, innapropriate behavior, telling "warstories" i.e. talking less than disdainfully about anything ASR didn't like, such as drugs, sex, stunts we'd pulled that got us sent there. Challenging the rules for any reason was being manipulative, denying an accusation was being in denial. Getting upset at false accusations was an attempt to intimidate the accuser. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
At least a third of the inmates were on either wellbutrin or adderall. You got to see one of the 2 psychiatrists the school employed, no one from outside. You weren't allowed to refuse medication either.
Some of the other issues in the program were a lack of policies on various issues such as religions, sexual orientation, and a number of other things. For example, Rudy Bentz the headmaster would frequently speak of a higher power in thinly veiled judeo-christian propaganda terms, and there was a clear preference for mainstream religions. Shortly after 9-11 in a schoolwide discussion, he failed to reprimand or even comment on an inmate yelling in front of the school an insensitive comment about "fucking towelheads". Wiccan or Buddhist students were often slighted, or accused of using the religion as part of their image rather than professing a sincere belief. Big fucking christmas tree up in the common room, slight chanukah concession for the few jewish kids, nothing for anyone else.
On other occasions, I was told by certain counselors that I did not know what my sexual orientation was and I was going through a delusional phase where I mistakenly believed I was bisexual. Yet other counselors told me it was normal and natural and to trust myself. The lack of clear policies on these and other issues created untold confusion and despair.
All in all, I think the program has absolutely minimal potential to help anyone, and most of the help it offers comes solely from the extended period of time away from a harmful home environment, and the substantial reflection it necessitates. The entire premise revolves around group mentality, breaking down and moulding psyches, a complex reward and punishment system combined with censorship and constant, constant, constant reinforcement of obedience that comes from never knowing whether or not you're "in agreement" (currently not violating or witholding a confession about past violations of the rules), and always worrying about being punished.
Through the use of repetitive propaganda, peer pressure, and psycholinguistics, the process of conveniently rephrasing everything to give it a slant that is in line with the belief you're trying to force upon a captive population. Rules are agreements, punishments are consequences, shoveling snow for 6 hours is "getting back in agreement", expressing your feelings in an unapproved manner is either acting out or manipulative behavior.
The Academy at Swift River has done untold damage to hundreds of children whose only crime was being born to parents who held them to unreasonable standards, often abused them mentally, physically and sexually, often were alcoholics or drug addicts or suffered from mental disorders, and thought that money could fix their kid. There is a certain amount of accountability on the parents part, but it's pretty much lip service when you get right down to it. Kids are beaten, berated, treated as less than human, and shipped away to prison without a trial when they understandably start to act out in these circumstances. They go through a 14 month sentence of emotional torture under questionable auspices, subjected to the horrors I've described above. To claim that the parents who sent them there are being called to task because they have to go through a 3 hour group therapy session once every 3 months and hear about how they fucked up their kid doesn't even begin to address the issues at hand.
The whole thing is a twisted mixture of cult and psych ward, it should be burnt to the ground and its founders should be jailed.
http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?opti ... &Itemid=12 (http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=965&Itemid=12)
DAY 1, Thursday evening. Agree or Else
The participants sign an agreement which includes non-disclosure of the processes used. It is my understanding that mental/therapeutic processess are not proprietary, and cannot be covered by patent, copyright or trade secret laws and thus violating nondisclosure cannot hold up in court. I will refrain from mentioning the name of the specific training I experienced and any process used in the training that cannot be documented elsewhere.
Dr. Margaret Singer writes about LGATs in her book, "Cults in Our Midst".
"The program trainers and leaders typically get agreement from participants that they will not tell anyone about the processes that occur. To do so "will spoil it for your friends, family, co-workers etc, when they take the course. Tell them what you got out of it trainers advise. This means be vague about the actual content and provide glowing endorsements telling others that the training turned your life around but do not tell them how emotional, dramatic, confrontational, and unnerving the sessions can be for some people. Because of this promise, consumers who buy and attend these seminars do so without information about how psychologically, socially, and sometimes physically stressing the event can be."
"Day one is usually devoted to demonstrating the leader's absolute authority. The leader, or trainer immediately takes control of the setting with a demeanor that suggests he is a powerful, in-charge person and no one is to challenge what he says. He remains totally in charge, acts knowledgeable, and is practiced in verbal skills so that he never loses an encounter. Anyone who challenges the trainer will be humiliated and verbally mashed."
The first day started Thursday evening around 7. After some introductory stuff welcoming people, etc. the trainer brings up *THE AGREEMENT*. The attitude and tone of voice of the trainer predictably becomes stern and unyielding in a way to purposely provoke a response from the attendees.
The first point brought up is about not revealing the processes or personal information that is shared. Since people will be sharing some very deep personal secrets then this is common sense but people do not know this in advance. The processes are not unique to the course and not proprietary but people do not know this.
The second point was about attending all the course including the followup session and also being on time. Several people objected to this stating they had other commitments family or otherwise. There were some people from out of town who could not make the next Tuesday evening followup.
Everyone of them was was met with unyielding harshness from the trainer. One of the arguments the trainer makes was if they would only "get it" they could make the space for the course in their schedule and "getting it" would also keep others from interrupting their attendance. "Getting it", of course means that we create our own reality or experience by our thinking and interpretation. However, this is not explained at this point and is designed only to provoke more responses from attendees. Several people storm out of the room. However there are ample staff people to handle those who leave. Outside, people are pressured by the staff to return to the course. Most end up coming back in the room while a few never return.
Other rules include not talking unless called upon, not sitting next to anyone you knew prior to the training, no eating, drinking, gum chewing, etc. Some people saw fit to argue with that. At this point the show begins to get quite boring as it had been over 3 hours that we were in the ballroom. At least we were allowed potty breaks as needed so I took one. When I got back the trainer was finishing up the agreements and we were asked to stand if we agreed. So we did. Then we were allowed a 20 minute break. We were reminded to be in our seats (precisely arranged and marked with tape on the floor) on time for the next part.
When we come back there is lecture which include some of the basic philosophy/pop psychology of LGATs. One can certainly read about the philosophy in John Hanley's book, Lifespring available from Lifespring (www.lifespringinc.com (http://www.lifespringinc.com))
Later we were asked to pair off into a diad (one on one exercises). What we did was an awareness exercise of staring into the other persons eyes in silence for several minutes. Then we were asked to introduce ourselves and have a conversation. At the end of the exercise we were guided to close our eyes and remind ourselves of how we behaved in the exercise, did we open up and share or did we talk superficially.
Then we did "The Trust Exercise". This consists of milling around the room, looking people in the eyes for a minute and stating one of only three things.
1) I trust you.
2) I don't trust you.
3) I don't know if I trust you.
This goes on for ten or fifteen minutes. At the end we were again instructed to close our eyes and review what we did from the vantage point of being above the crowd. Let me point out that there is a lot of closed eye guided exercises in these courses. By closing your eyes and going within one usually enters an alpha or hypnotic state and is much more suggestible then normal.
These courses also use popular music to set the mood. After the trust process we were instructed to sit on the floor and we listened to Jackson Browne's "The Pretender".
THE PRETENDER
I'm going to rent myself a house
In the shade of the freeway
I'm going to pack my lunch in the morning
And go to work each day
And when the evening rolls around
I'll go on home and lay my body down
And when the morning light comes streaming in
I'll get up and do it again
Amen
Say it again
Amen
I want to know what became of the changes
We waited for love to bring
Were they only the fitful dreams
Of some greater awakening
I've been aware of the time going by
They say in the end it's the wink of an eye
And when the morning light comes streaming in
You'll get up and do it again
Amen
Caught between the longing for love
And the struggle for the legal tender
Where the sirens sing and the church bells ring
And the junk man pounds his fender
Where the veterans dream of the fight
Fast asleep at the traffic light
And the children solemnly wait
For the ice cream vendor
Out into the cool of the evening
Strolls the Pretender
He knows that all his hopes and dreams
Begin and end there
Ah the laughter of the lovers
As they run through the night
Leaving nothing for the others
But to choose off and fight
And tear at the world with all their might
While the ships bearing their dreams
Sail out of sight
I'm going to find myself a girl
Who can show me what laughter means
And we'll fill in the missing colors
In each other's paint-by-number dreams
And then we'll put our dark glasses on
And we'll make love until our strength is gone
And when the morning light comes streaming in
We'll get up and do it again
Get it up again
I'm going to be a happy idiot
And struggle for the legal tender
Where the ads take aim and lay their claim
To the heart and the soul of the spender
And believe in whatever may lie In those things that money can buy
Thought true love could have been a contender
Are you there?
Say a prayer for the Pretender
Who started out so young and strong
Only to surrender
(c) 1976 SWALLOW TURN MUSIC
(You can get the lyrics to damn near anything off the web :-)
During the song the trainer periodically lowers the volume and instructs people to focus on their inauthentic, pretending behaviors. The tone of the trainer's voice is negative and rebuking like we are worthless pitiful pretending creatures. "Are you there? Or are you just pretending."
In my conscious mind I am somewhat amused by all of this. In my subconscious I can feel awareness of all my senses increasing. One cannot resist the psychological opening that occurs in these courses.
After the exercises the group has to rearrange the chairs to the tape on the floor. The group is timed and encouraged to beat the previous time. This is just another way to get the group to respond to the trainer on demand. By this point nobody resists the trainer.
After this it is 1 AM and time to go home being reminded to be there the next night at 7. If people go to work the next day which I did, it makes for a night of very little sleep.
Continuation here...
http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?opti ... &Itemid=12 (http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=category§ionid=8&id=72&Itemid=12)
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Yes, anne, I remember conversing with goodtobefree and his accounts of ASR were similar to what my Daughter went thru although thru a much darker view. The life steps are real but seemed a little off from what my daughter went thru. She didnt see them as intense as he did, she saw it as positive as did the kids in her peer group. She didnt have the abusive yelling etc., didnt see the reflections on her childhood as hurtful, but more as "Wow I never thought of it that way" or "yes, my parents did suck for not listening to me when I wanted to go out etc.", "Its okay to feel this way" ...etc... many emotions came out but it wasnt a bad experience for everyone.
I think it was a terrible experience for "Gootobefree" , my heart went out to him as we talked. I dont think that he should not have attended ASR. I dont know the answer some kids dont do well. Maybe they have improved the screening process since, I dont know. But the last thing we want to do is turn a blind eye to those who are helped each year. We should continue to improve the schools so that they can reach more and more kids.
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Which is why I started the thread over in TTI about coercive "therapy", mind control, behavior modification and the like. You think this form of treatment is not only benign but useful. You claim it "works". I'll agree it "works" in the sense that it changes someone...it's a question of how that change is brought about and ultimately what it does to the person psycologically. In the immediate sense and long down the road.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=20576 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=20576)
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I do feel that Goodtobefree was a wreck after he left ASR. I dont know the circumstances of what lead up to him going there but he didnt leave in a good space and /or regessed very quickly. My heart really did go out to him as we spoke and in my opinion would be the poster child for why some kids should not be placed in TBS's. Goodtobefree's is a good account to keep around, but please listen to the kids that do well also and the parents who come here to tell their stories. They can be just as compelling, honest and forthright, speaking from the heart just like GTBF did. It would be nice to create a level field where everyone could be comfortable with speaking about their experiences not just those who oppose TBS's.
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:rofl: :rofl: :roll: ::noway::
God you're pathetic.
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:rofl: :rofl: :roll: ::noway::
God you're pathetic.
sorry to offend you, I just think the forum should be open to both.
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sorry to offend you,
You don't offend me. You offend your daughter and potential marks.
I just think the forum should be open to both.
Your presence would indicate that it obviously is.
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sorry to offend you,
You don't offend me. You offend your daughter and potential marks.
I just think the forum should be open to both.
Your presence would indicate that it obviously is.
well it does, yes, you are right. But by level field, I am talking about discussions from parents who have had a good experience. You have to admit if 2 parents came on here, one who said the TBS mislead them and took their money and another who said their child is doing great, they would be treated the same?
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sorry to offend you,
You don't offend me. You offend your daughter and potential marks.
I just think the forum should be open to both.
Your presence would indicate that it obviously is.
well it does, yes, you are right. But by level field, I am talking about discussions from parents who have had a good experience. You have to admit if 2 parents came on here, one who said the TBS mislead them and took their money and another who said their child is doing great, they would be treated the same?
You didn't say level the field, you said it should be open to both. It is. As far as level, well...it's a survivors forum. I don't suppose it would be a level field if I went over to the ASR forum now would it?
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You didn't say level the field, you said it should be open to both. It is. As far as level, well...it's a survivors forum. I don't suppose it would be a level field if I went over to the ASR forum now would it?
True enough, just tough to see information lost. I like to see both sides of the discussion. I wouldnt want to be in an ASR forum if everyone was pro ASR and others were chased away because they had a bad experience. It's hard seeing moms and dads, kids chased away because they they are sharing a good experience here, I see it as lost opportunity for both sides. But as you say it is a survivors forum and the walls are likely to come up when that type of talk happens, I do understand.
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justaMom I got the other questions if you still want to participate..........
- Did your son know that you were taking him to ASR?
- Could you elaborate on what base camp consisted of?
You mentioned that your son started to withdraw in base camp and that the pdoc went out to asses him in 40 degree weather. What makes you think that this environment has any therapeutic value to treat what you say is a mental problem not behavioral?
- Did your son ever give you specifics about the incident with the PE teacher?
- You said that your son knew that you wouldn't give in and take him home and that the staff knew this. That mentality is a gold mine for programs because they don't need to convince you to ignore your child's pleads. Part of breaking a kid is causing them to lose hope of ever getting out. From what you said about ASR requiring wilderness first for students who need escorts is a hallmark of the "break them down " to "build them up" tough-love think..
Did your son ever tell you if other students were dropped to a lower peer group or faced any type of consequence for trying to get their parents to take them home?
- What could you and "son" talk about during your phone calls, did he feel like he could tell you anything or did he feel restricted in what he could talk about?
- Could your son call other relatives or close friends?
- Was mail read before being sent out or given to your son?
- In group therapy did the kids have to talk about deeply personal, perhaps embarrassing, things?
- Were kids confronted for not participating in group sessions?
- Were kids ever told that they were not being honest or open enough in group?
- Did your son ever witness or experience anyone being broken down, berated, or humiliated by the group or staff leading the group?
- Did your son have to read letters written by you to the group? Sometimes these are called impacted letters or some other ambiguous term....
- How often did your son meet with his therapist?
- You mentioned quiet a few times how your son could wait out therapist and fight the system without attacking it. What did ASR do to get pass this?
If a kid did not want to participate were they forced, and if so how?
- Was isolation, excessive exercise or work detail used on kids as punishment for not participating? And could you elaborate on the self-reflections, how long were they? Why did kids get put on self studies? How did they get off of self studies? What happened if they just refused to cooperate?
- You mentioned peer groups, this is the same as levels, stages, insert-term, etc... It's all program speak that means the same thing and serves the same purpose.
What could get a kid dropped to a lower peer group?
Did the upper peer-groups or class have any type of power over the lower groups?
Also what was consider privileges at ASR?
- Did staff encourage kids to rat on others in their peer group for negative behavior? And what was considered negative behavior?
- For the nonprofessional staff, whom you feel only require a background check, what was their function in the program? How often were they in contact with the students?
- What makes you say that ASR should not be JACHO accredited? Your son went there for a mental condition, he had to participate in therapy, he had a therapist and psychiatrist who dispensed meds.....
That's a psychiatric facility, "specialty school" is a bogus term programs use to avoid more rigorous licensing guidelines...
- Where did these problem students get sent by ASR, you mentioned something about Costa Rica. I assume you know the warning (http://http://travel.state.gov/travel/tips/brochures/brochures_1220.html) given by the US state department in regards to overseas programs, so what could these other programs do that ASR couldn't do?
Like I said earlier no one is going to pull any punches or walk on egg shells around you. If you want to benefit from the first hand knowledge of programs by actual program survivors you gotta have thick skin.
Some may be blunt others may be assholes, what they won't be is cowed or intimidated and you shouldn't be either. I'm here to ask you some questions and have a conversation if you don't wish to participate thats ok with me.
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sorry to offend you,
You don't offend me. You offend your daughter and potential marks.
I just think the forum should be open to both.
Your presence would indicate that it obviously is.
well it does, yes, you are right. But by level field, I am talking about discussions from parents who have had a good experience. You have to admit if 2 parents came on here, one who said the TBS mislead them and took their money and another who said their child is doing great, they would be treated the same?
Listen ¿wHo? parents and students have a fucked up few of success in programs. A girl who went through Thayer Leaning Center thought that it was for the best even though she admits they forced her to eat her own vomit (http://http://www.caica.org/NEWS%20Thayer%20mormon%20church.htm).
I ask questions of those claiming good program experiences because they never elaborate or give day to day details and don't understand the nature of abuse in many of these facilities. Those with horror stories do give details so the need for these QAs is mostly redundant. If you have shit to say about fair and balanced please say it else where.
I don't like you ¡WhO?(I like the name though) and you're a magnet for useless debate, so if you feel like I'm being hard on just you you're right.
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sorry to offend you,
You don't offend me. You offend your daughter and potential marks.
I just think the forum should be open to both.
Your presence would indicate that it obviously is.
well it does, yes, you are right. But by level field, I am talking about discussions from parents who have had a good experience. You have to admit if 2 parents came on here, one who said the TBS mislead them and took their money and another who said their child is doing great, they would be treated the same?
Listen ¿wHo? parents and students have a fucked up few of success in programs. A girl who went through Thayer Leaning Center thought that it was for the best even though she admits they forced her to eat her own vomit (http://http://www.caica.org/NEWS%20Thayer%20mormon%20church.htm).
I ask questions of those claiming good program experiences because they never elaborate or give day to day details and don't understand the nature of abuse in many of these facilities. Those with horror stories do give details so the need for these QAs is mostly redundant. If you have shit to say about fair and balanced please say it else where.
I don't like you ¡WhO?(I like the name though) and you're a magnet for useless debate, so if you feel like I'm being hard on just you you're right.
I never refered to your questions , no need to get defensive. In fact I think they brought out some very good aspects of "justamoms "sons experiences.
What I think is unfortunate is the responses she gets for being honest vs how a person who is telling stories in a negative light is received...... I think that is why fornits is seeing mostly only one side of the picture....
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It'd be different if she was real.
Now fuck off.
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What I think is unfortunate is the responses she gets for being honest vs how a person who is telling stories in a negative light is received...... I think that is why fornits is seeing mostly only one side of the picture....
Would you STFU about responses. All the fucking whining about people have to be nice to program parents so they will hang around and whine some more..... wah. If anything, one side is seen because programmies have no skin, take everything personally, and their sensibilities are easily offended. [Precisely why some kids end up in private pay prisons] Is that someone else's problem? What would the program tell your kid about that?
Not one of you program parents could survive in a program. You'd walk out the first day. Further, not one of you 'really' know what happened on a daily basis, or why it appears to have 'worked'. How can you say that "you" had a positive experience? Someone else took your kid off your hands and changed them... doesn't matter how they went about it, the means justify the end.
And you, nor I, nor anyone else knows if she is being honest or not. For all anyone knows, you and she are Aspen marketers.
If you want to control a forum, start your own. If you allow dissent, I'm sure a few survivors will participate.
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What I think is unfortunate is the responses she gets for being honest vs how a person who is telling stories in a negative light is received...... I think that is why fornits is seeing mostly only one side of the picture....
Would you STFU about responses. All the fucking whining about people have to be nice to program parents so they will hang around and whine some more..... wah. If anything, one side is seen because programmies have no skin, take everything personally, and their sensibilities are easily offended. [Precisely why some kids end up in private pay prisons] Is that someone else's problem? What would the program tell your kid about that?
Not one of you program parents could survive in a program. You'd walk out the first day. Further, not one of you 'really' know what happened on a daily basis, or why it appears to have 'worked'. How can you say that "you" had a positive experience? Someone else took your kid off your hands and changed them... doesn't matter how they went about it, the means justify the end.
And you, nor I, nor anyone else knows if she is being honest or not. For all anyone knows, you and she are Aspen marketers.
If you want to control a forum, start your own. If you allow dissent, I'm sure a few survivors will participate.
I guess, Deborah, what I am trying to say is : Lets say this was a Parents survival forum and some child came on here and gave their experience and her story was met with skepticism and sarcastic remarks, like ?those responses sound like they were cut and pasted?, ?Oh, she only gave her 3 year old sister heroin once, wa,wa,wa, that?s not a big deal!?, ?go ahead,punk, run away don?t answer any of our questions?.all these program kids are the same, thin skinned, you place them on one reflection and they yell abuse!!...?you give them work to do, like us parents have to do, and have them clean their dorm and they yell child labor laws, they have no idea what us parents had to go thru, all I hear is me,me,me!!??. I wish they would go away I am sick of hearing about it?.
If I was on that forum I would intervene apologize to the child for the rude behavior and try to get the child to stay and ask the other parents to cut the crap?? they may, they may not, but I would at least try to keep that child around to allow her to speak.
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Funny how quickly you dismiss the stories of survivors though and embrace the positive stories of parents.
If you looked back, you would find this not to be the case. As an example, Goodtobefree had a very bad experience and I was supportive of his story and accounts of his time their and even paralleled them to those of my daughters.
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:roll:
The only thing worse than talking to poorly-written fictional characters is talking to TheWho.
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:roll:
The only thing worse than talking to poorly-written fictional characters is talking to TheWho.
Thank you Lactose, Case and , point.
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And your feelings on Nalex who did a fairly decent job exposing ASR for being a fraud?
I Wasnt involved in that conversation.
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Did a search on Nalex and I just checked out your Sticky from the Aspen group thread (Didn?t know it as Nalex). I remember, I read this, his accounts were in line with what my daughter experienced....I dont discount his account.
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I guess, Deborah, what I am trying to say is : Lets say this was a Parents survival forum and some child came on here and gave their experience and her story was met with skepticism and sarcastic remarks, like ?those responses sound like they were cut and pasted?, ?Oh, she only gave her 3 year old sister heroin once, wa,wa,wa, that?s not a big deal!?, ?go ahead,punk, run away don?t answer any of our questions?.all these program kids are the same, thin skinned, you place them on one reflection and they yell abuse!!...?you give them work to do, like us parents have to do, and have them clean their dorm and they yell child labor laws, they have no idea what us parents had to go thru, all I hear is me,me,me!!??. I wish they would go away I am sick of hearing about it?.
Why does that sound familiar? StrugglingTeens?
If I was on that forum I would intervene apologize to the child for the rude behavior and try to get the child to stay and ask the other parents to cut the crap?? they may, they may not, but I would at least try to keep that child around to allow her to speak.
In case you haven't noticed, precisely what happens here. And precisely what you've done in this thread. We'll see how it works out.
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I guess, Deborah, what I am trying to say is : Lets say this was a Parents survival forum and some child came on here and gave their experience and her story was met with skepticism and sarcastic remarks, like ?those responses sound like they were cut and pasted?, ?Oh, she only gave her 3 year old sister heroin once, wa,wa,wa, that?s not a big deal!?, ?go ahead,punk, run away don?t answer any of our questions?.all these program kids are the same, thin skinned, you place them on one reflection and they yell abuse!!...?you give them work to do, like us parents have to do, and have them clean their dorm and they yell child labor laws, they have no idea what us parents had to go thru, all I hear is me,me,me!!??. I wish they would go away I am sick of hearing about it?.
Why does that sound familiar? StrugglingTeens?
If I was on that forum I would intervene apologize to the child for the rude behavior and try to get the child to stay and ask the other parents to cut the crap?? they may, they may not, but I would at least try to keep that child around to allow her to speak.
In case you haven't noticed, precisely what happens here. And precisely what you've done in this thread. We'll see how it works out.
Never been on Struggling teens, If they do that it is wrong....Just making a comment, dont want to stir up a debate...thanks.
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Interesting... have you posted your good experience anywhere else on the web except the premier survivors site?
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DON'T ENCOURAGE HIM!
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I guess, Deborah, what I am trying to say is : Lets say this was a Parents survival forum and some child came on here and gave their experience and her story was met with skepticism and sarcastic remarks, like ?those responses sound like they were cut and pasted?, ?Oh, she only gave her 3 year old sister heroin once, wa,wa,wa, that?s not a big deal!?, ?go ahead,punk, run away don?t answer any of our questions?.all these program kids are the same, thin skinned, you place them on one reflection and they yell abuse!!...?you give them work to do, like us parents have to do, and have them clean their dorm and they yell child labor laws, they have no idea what us parents had to go thru, all I hear is me,me,me!!??. I wish they would go away I am sick of hearing about it?.
That's how ST behaves. Sort of. As soon as they get any hint that someone doesn't agree with ALL of their statements, they ban them. You guys (pro programs nuts) are welcome here any time. It ain't always pretty, but nobody gets rid of you just because we don't like what you say.
If I was on that forum I would intervene apologize to the child for the rude behavior and try to get the child to stay and ask the other parents to cut the crap?? they may, they may not, but I would at least try to keep that child around to allow her to speak.
You're here. Charly's here. If a parent cares enough[/b] about this issue they'll stick around. They'll ignore the slams and dig for information. If they don't, they won't.
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Anne wrote:
That's how ST behaves. Sort of. As soon as they get any hint that someone doesn't agree with ALL of their statements, they ban them. You guys (pro programs nuts) are welcome here any time. It ain't always pretty, but nobody gets rid of you just because we don't like what you say.
I have read the posts about people here getting kicked off ST over the past years like Niles and just recently Psy? I think? I haven?t seen what they have posted (whether they intentionally disrupted conversations? or blocked people from talking etc?) but I don?t believe anyone should be banned for expressing their opinions? and before getting kicked off I think there should be some private conversations and /or warnings about the rules, at least before the block their IP.
I know that it one of the strong points of fornits is they accept everyone for who they are and if the gloves come off so be it (that?s what I like about fornits and in my opinion makes fornits stronger and more credible than ST)?.. I just have a soft spot in my heart for struggling parents trying to help their kids attain a good life?? others have a soft spot for kids who suffered because of them, that cool, just different points of virew.
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The Who, tell us about "the good life" your daughter attained from being locked up at ASR, again. "The good life" that included her running away, not speaking to you for 2 years, and being unable to communicate with her own peers after her little stay at ASR. And none of that "she just matured so much at ASR, she had nothing in common with her friends any longer." Some people retain friendships over a life-time---DID YOU KNOW THAT? And only very very dysfunctional families have a daughter who does not speak to a parent for YEARS. DID YOU KNOW THAT?
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The Who, tell us about "the good life" your daughter attained from being locked up at ASR, again. "The good life" that included her running away, not speaking to you for 2 years, and being unable to communicate with her own peers after her little stay at ASR. And none of that "she just matured so much at ASR, she had nothing in common with her friends any longer." Some people retain friendships over a life-time---DID YOU KNOW THAT? And only very very dysfunctional families have a daughter who does not speak to a parent for YEARS. DID YOU KNOW THAT?
When she first got home she had a difficult time adjusting. She went back to her old friends for a few weeks and found that she had outgrown them (matured) and eventually found a more mature and healthier group to hang out with. She didn?t move away and our relationship has been great.
Some of my feed back to ASR was the transition back home and I heard from other parents that ASR has addressed the issue and transitions are much smoother now.
I think one thing you are missing here is many of the kids which enter ASR are very immature for their age and the maturation process can be accelerated if the child is placed in a mature and safe environment where they can thrive and grow.
Take any of the kids that join, say a group sport at school. Within no time they mature very quickly in ways like having respect for others, themselves, organizing and being responsible for their own equipment, getting to practice on time, healthier friendships etc.
Many of you focus too much on the bumps in the road and not the destination. Is it a tough road, yes, no question about it!! But many of the kids thrive and do so well when they get home.
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When she first got home she had a difficult time adjusting. She went back to her old friends for a few weeks and found that they had outgrown her (she had regressed) and she eventually found a less mature and more diseased group to hang out with. She ran like hell and our relationship was even worse than it started.
Some of my feed back to ASR was the transition back home and I heard from other parents that ASR has addressed the issue and transitions are much more humiliating now.
I think one thing you are missing here is many of the kids which enter ASR are too mature for their parents to handle and the maturation process can be reversed if the child is placed in a capricious and unsafe environment where they can be forcibly infantilized.
Take any of the kids that join, say a group sport at school. Within no time they mature very quickly in ways like having respect for others, themselves, organizing and being responsible for their own equipment, getting to practice on time, healthier friendships etc. Now take the conceptual reverse. That's ASR.
Many of you focus too much on the bumps in the road and not the destination. Is it a tough road, yes, no question about it!! But many of the kids are reduced to whimpering shadows of their former selves when they get home, and that's exactly what we hoped to accomplish.
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Some of my feed back to ASR was the transition back home and I heard from other parents that ASR has addressed the issue and transitions are much smoother now.
What did that entail?
I think one thing you are missing here is many of the kids which enter ASR are very immature for their age and the maturation process can be accelerated if the child is placed in a mature and safe environment where they can thrive and grow.
What's a mature environment? Being warehoused with other kids who are "immature for their age"? You contradict yourself. Aggregation of distressed (immature?) kids is not recommended.
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Well, that?s a good point, I can see how that would not be clear. Not all the kids are at the same maturity level at ASR. By mature environment I am talking about the structure they receive, the responsibilities they are given and expected to do. Living in a world with consequences. Modeling after counselors and more mature peers in their group. Learning and receiving tools to assist in a mature approach to daily challenges and conflict resolution etc.
If you are attending a calculus class and everyone in the class is there for the first time and knows nothing about calculus it isn?t a recipe for failure.
As far as the specific changes to transition go, I do not have the details. I believe there was a person who had a child who graduated recently and we can get the question to her
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Well, that?s a good point, but I can't see it at all. Not all the kids start out equally victimized at ASR. By regressive environment I am talking about the reaming they receive, the indignities they are given and expected to receive quietly. Living in a world with random 'consequences' enforced by unpredictable staff. Modeling after professional sadists and more regressed peers in their group. Learning and receiving tools to assist in a twisted approach to daily humiliation and snitching on their peers in group etc.
If you are attending a mindrape session and everyone in the session is there for the first time and has never had this happen to them before it isn?t a recipe for failure.
As far as the specific changes to transition go, I do not have the details. I believe there was a blatantly obvious marketer who pretended to have a child who graduated recently and we can get the question to her
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I have wondered why people are so suspicous about parent stories.
Maybe it is because it is so easy to make one story up.
Here is a fake one in progress:http://http://www.asstr.org/files/Authors/JensenDenmark/mothersconcern.txt
But we also need to understand that there is no reality we all can agree on. I see the world in a different way than the person next to me.
As I can understand, JustaMon did something which is out of order, when it comes to the normal inmates at ASR. She drove her son up there herself. That speaks for some degree of commitment from her son. Commitment is the real factor when we are talking of whether it is OK for not for the child to be locked up.
If a 16 year old boy or girl want to lock themselves up in a monastery in order to serve god, would that be OK?
If they feel afraid of the surrunding world and wants to lock themselves up in a TBS, would that be OK?
Properly yes in both answers.
But they have to ask for it themselves! They should be allowed a trial stay for 2 week - fully paid of course. If they want to leave at the end of the 2 weeks - they should.
But what if the child is sick? I have suggestion. Change the laws so a court has to judge in every case. Let the court and the local school district be the deciding factor when it comes to treatment or the need to be locked up. Waste of tax-payers money would soon come to an end. Only facilities with a certain amount to quality would survive.
To the parents: I am fully assured of the fact that you love your children and you think that you took action in their favour. No one is questioned that, but in all other aspect of our society it is the court, not private interests, which decide who belong behind bars and not.
Some degree of protection of the childs rights is missing when a child in locked up at a TBS.
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Well, that?s a good point, I can see how that would not be clear. Not all the kids are at the same maturity level at ASR. By mature environment I am talking about the structure they receive, the responsibilities they are given and expected to do. Living in a world with consequences. Modeling after counselors and more mature peers in their group. Learning and receiving tools to assist in a mature approach to daily challenges and conflict resolution etc.
Structure, responsibilities, consequences, appropriate modeling, learning tools, conflict resolution.
That's parenting. And doesn't require residential 'treatment'.
Where's the breakdown? What prevented you, as a parent, from providing these things at home?
If you are attending a calculus class and everyone in the class is there for the first time and knows nothing about calculus it isn?t a recipe for failure.
It damn well may be if they're all "immature" and/or lack an aptitude for math. They may learn more about the 'evils' of the world, than calculus.
As far as the specific changes to transition go, I do not have the details. I believe there was a person who had a child who graduated recently and we can get the question to her
Who is this "We", that ocassionally slips out in your communications? You work with a team?
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Structure, responsibilities, consequences, appropriate modeling, learning tools, conflict resolution.
That's parenting. And doesn't require residential 'treatment'.
Where's the breakdown? What prevented you, as a parent, from providing these things at home?
No it doesn?t in most cases I agree. A family can have several children and they all do fine except one which gets off track for some reason, the cause could be multiple reasons, conflict, in with a bad crowd, present environment isnt working for that child for some reason, etc.
Its like changing a light bulb. It comes naturally to almost everyone, you untwist it and replace it. But every once in awhile a bulb will get stuck and will break off while you are trying to remove it and may require a special tool to remove it and in some rare occasions you may have to have an electrician repair/replace the fixture. Doesn?t mean the home owner isn?t doing their job and it isn?t the light bulbs fault either, it just means every situation is different and some require more work than others.
The other option is to just ignore it and live in the dark and hope it repairs itself someday?. But this isn?t a healthy choice for anyone.
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WHO!
That metaphor sucks worse than the half baked pizza one on the TB video. I demand you come up with another one. One that doesn't compare kids to a lightbulb, fence post, aborted fetus, or half baked pizza.
Do it now or I replace the new GIF sig that I installed in your honor with something really revolting.
No....No, please anything but that!!! I will try to come up with something
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Okay try this one:
Its like being a caretaker in charge of a family of limo?s for a limo service. You keep them in good repair, when new models come out you get educated on the latest techniques to keep them in good running order, change the breaks when needed, tires, change the oil, clean the screens in the transmission, align the front end each month. But one day the 2002 Mercedes stretch develops an engine noise and you get right to work, order the Chiltons manual do some online research, maybe adjust the valves, but all to no avail. So you call up some local people to come look at it and they work on it for a few weeks and finally a consensus of professions agree that the car needs to be sent out for repair. This makes the man sad and it will affect the synergy of the entire fleet to have the Mercedes stretch 2002 gone from home, but it is for the best decision for everyone involved. Another option would be to replace all the oil in her crankcase with STP and the sound will go away, but research has shown that although this is correct it is only a short term fix and will only serve to mask the problem and postpone the inevitable and probably makes things worse.
So this decision to send the car off doesn?t mean the stretch limo caretaker doesn?t care enough about Mercedes stretch 2002 to keep her home, he knows the sacrifice will affect everyone and in the end she will become a happy member of the fleet again.
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Another option would be to replace all the oil in her crankcase with STP and the sound will go away, but research has shown that although this is correct it is only a short term fix and will only serve to mask the problem and postpone the inevitable and probably makes things worse.
Got it. You sent your kid to someone else and all they did was fill her crank case with STP and tell you she was all fixed.
Even though you backed into it, Who, what you've described in a little analogy nutshell is the Teen Help industry.
"We make the noise go away, and, if it ever comes back, you can send her back to us. It's called a 'guarantee'!" :roll:
"Why do they offer a guarantee on the box? Because they know what they're selling you is a guaranteed piece of shit! I could take a dump in a box and mark it 'guaranteed.' I've got a lot of spare time..." - Tommy Boy
(parenthetical note: As sick as it seems, most of these "TBS's" do indeed offer a guarantee, in writing, on your kid's behavior - if that doesn't make you run like hell from these shysters, nothing will...)
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:roll:
Kids don't just wake up one day and fall 'off the tracks'. If you look back through the kid's/family history, you will find the causes for uncooperative, self destructive behavior.
If you want to know where these problems begin, watch Super Nanny and Nanny 911. I prefer the former.
You'll clearly see that kids' behavior is of the parents' making. And can rapidly change when the parent becomes a parent.
There is a serious epidemic of lousy parenting in this country, and TBSs are filling the void. For a price.
If structure, responsibilities, consequences, appropriate modeling, learning tools, conflict resolution are provided at home and the child's not responding or cooperating, how do they achieve it in an institution?
I know, but I don't think you do.
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Okay try this one:
Its like waking up one morning and realizing that your car has grown itself into a high-end Dodge Viper, despite your careless neglect of things like its transmission fluid, brakes, tires, etc. You can't drive it anymore- it's way too fast for you and the handling is too precise for you to be able to make a left turn without skidding out of control. So in order to destroy the car's capabilities and make it easier for you to handle, you get right to work, order the Chiltons manual do some online research, maybe adjust the valves, but all to no avail. So you call up some local people to come look at it, but they say something like "Worsen the handling? Screw up the brakes and the engine? We're not going to do that to a car." So you find someone who gets paid a hefty referral fee to send the car to someone who performs massive downgrades to vehicles. Research has shown that this is only a short term fix and the car will end up regaining some of its capabilities and end up becoming a very twitchy, unpredictable vehicle, and hasten the inevitable and definitely make things worse, but that's not the man's problem as the car will be out of his hands by then. This makes the man very relieved- the other cars won't try to become Dodge Vipers and he doesn't have to try to drive that thing anymore. Another option would be to replace the fucking driver, but he's way too egotistical to see that as an option.
So this decision to send the car off basically means the driver doesn?t know enough about Dodge Vipers to drive one, he knows the sacrifice will affect everyone but he honestly doesn't give a shit as it's not his problem anymore.
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(parenthetical note: As sick as it seems, most of these "TBS's" do indeed offer a guarantee, in writing, on your kid's behavior - if that doesn't make you run like hell from these shysters, nothing will...)
HLAs guarentee had a stipulation- you must send your kid to one of their pre-approved traditional boarding schools. Didn't want the kid coming home and dashing the illusion that they had fixed him/her.
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How's that working out for HLA?
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Deborah- What were some of the boarding schools they referred to, if you recall. Thanks.
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Another option would be to replace all the oil in her crankcase with STP and the sound will go away, but research has shown that although this is correct it is only a short term fix and will only serve to mask the problem and postpone the inevitable and probably makes things worse.
Got it. You sent your kid to someone else and all they did was fill her crank case with STP and tell you she was all fixed.
Even though you backed into it, Who, what you've described in a little analogy nutshell is the Teen Help industry.
"We make the noise go away, and, if it ever comes back, you can send her back to us. It's called a 'guarantee'!" :roll:
"Why do they offer a guarantee on the box? Because they know what they're selling you is a guaranteed piece of shit! I could take a dump in a box and mark it 'guaranteed.' I've got a lot of spare time..." - Tommy Boy
(parenthetical note: As sick as it seems, most of these "TBS's" do indeed offer a guarantee, in writing, on your kid's behavior - if that doesn't make you run like hell from these shysters, nothing will...)
I agree 100%, filling the crank case with STP would only serve to mask the problem (Thats the point, that can be done at home) we dont want to ignore the problem or put a band on it to cover it up and move on..... So lets finish my analogy....
Another option would be to replace all the oil in her crankcase with STP and the sound will go away, but research has shown that although this is correct it is only a short term fix and will only serve to mask the problem and postpone the inevitable and probably makes things worse.
So this decision to send the car off doesn?t mean the stretch limo caretaker doesn?t care enough about Mercedes stretch 2002 to keep her home, he knows the sacrifice will affect everyone and in the end she will become a happy member of the fleet again.
So the decison was made not to mask the problem but to seek help above and beyond what could be done locally.
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He doesn't get the point. Please stop replying to him.
::troll::
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I know he doesn't get it, but I can't resist the image of him - to use an analogy - flopping around on the floor gasping for air while looking up at the fishbowl he just jumped out of...
It's funny.
And, yes, sending your daughter to ASR to get her crankcase filled with STP is exactly what you did. If you could have shut her up at home, you'd have done it. You couldn't so you engaged the "professionals" at ASR to shut her up for you.
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I know he doesn't get it, but I can't resist the image of him - to use an analogy - flopping around on the floor gasping for air while looking up at the fishbowl he just jumped out of...
It's funny.
And, yes, sending your daughter to ASR to get her crankcase filled with STP is exactly what you did. If you could have shut her up at home, you'd have done it. You couldn't so you engaged the "professionals" at ASR to shut her up for you.
See, DJ, you made a funny!! That was good!
Well, as far as my daughter goes, time will also tell. She is on a good track and has been for years. The STP would have warn down long ago.....the permanent help is more lasting
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Deborah- What were some of the boarding schools they referred to, if you recall. Thanks.
The two I know my ex considered were
Gould Academy in Bethel, Maine
Vermont Academy in Saxtons River, Vt
There's a list here:
http://www.hiddenlakeacademy.com/Boardi ... ances.aspx (http://www.hiddenlakeacademy.com/BoardingSchoolAcceptances.aspx)
but I'm not sure they're ALL on the approved list. Some may just be listed simply because a student moved there.
My son was set to enter Vermont Academy when his dad apparently had a revelation and pulled him from HLA two months early. He finished at his old high school.
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Well, as far as my daughter goes, time will also tell. She is on a good track and has been for years. The STP would have warn down long ago.....the permanent help is more lasting
Time will not necessarily tell. Your daughter may never tell you her true feelings, or the intimate details of her experience. My sons have a reasonably good relationship with their father, albeit surface. They know his limitations and don't exceed them. That could change someday if one of them ever feels wronged or violated by him. As long as the money flows and the good times roll, all will probably remain the same. And that will remain a part of the past they just don't revisit.
The effects can be as obvious as depression and/or intense PTSD to unexplained difficulty in intimate relationships to difficulty with authority- from rebellion to being unable to advocate for one's self. And it's quiet likely that the 'victim' doesn't connect the dots between the social difficulties their experiencing and their conditioning in program.
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Well, as far as my daughter goes, time will also tell. She is on a good track and has been for years. The STP would have warn down long ago.....the permanent help is more lasting
Time will not necessarily tell. Your daughter may never tell you her true feelings, or the intimate details of her experience. My sons have a reasonably good relationship with their father, albeit surface. They know his limitations and don't exceed them. That could change someday if one of them ever feels wronged or violated by him. As long as the money flows and the good times roll, all will probably remain the same. And that will remain a part of the past they just don't revisit.
The effects can be as obvious as depression and/or intense PTSD to unexplained difficulty in intimate relationships to difficulty with authority- from rebellion to being unable to advocate for one's self. And it's quiet likely that the 'victim' doesn't connect the dots between the social difficulties their experiencing and their conditioning in program.
Great post deborah. One thing that the Who and those of his ilk never seem to get is the idea that if a kid is "On track" this is all that matters. Locking kids up so that they toe the party line eventually robs them of the chance to actually learn anything for themselves.
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Oz- Toeing the party line is not what most parents hope for when a teen is sent to a program. They WANT the kid to learn about themselves and get at what is motivating the destructive behaviors.
I have a kid who got kicked out of pre-school. He never did toe the party line. That didn't always work so well for him, but he needed to figure out when he could compromise and when he couldn't. He didn't toe it at his program and he didn't always toe it afterwards.
What parents want for their kids is for them to 1. stay alive 2. love and respect THEMSELVES and 3. achieve the happiness and goals they set for themselves.
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Well, as far as my daughter goes, time will also tell. She is on a good track and has been for years. The STP would have warn down long ago.....the permanent help is more lasting
Time will not necessarily tell. Your daughter may never tell you her true feelings, or the intimate details of her experience. My sons have a reasonably good relationship with their father, albeit surface. They know his limitations and don't exceed them. That could change someday if one of them ever feels wronged or violated by him. As long as the money flows and the good times roll, all will probably remain the same. And that will remain a part of the past they just don't revisit.
The effects can be as obvious as depression and/or intense PTSD to unexplained difficulty in intimate relationships to difficulty with authority- from rebellion to being unable to advocate for one's self. And it's quiet likely that the 'victim' doesn't connect the dots between the social difficulties their experiencing and their conditioning in program.
True, but how are any of us ever going to know. The same effect could take place by tough displine at home, drawing a hard line. The kids feel wronged or their rights violated and never see you in the same way again or afraid to challenge the rules because they dont want to be grounded again. This effect doesnt have to be limited to a TBS stay.....
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Oz- Toeing the party line is not what most parents hope for when a teen is sent to a program. They WANT the kid to learn about themselves and get at what is motivating the destructive behaviors.
I have a kid who got kicked out of pre-school. He never did toe the party line. That didn't always work so well for him, but he needed to figure out when he could compromise and when he couldn't. He didn't toe it at his program and he didn't always toe it afterwards.
What parents want for their kids is for them to 1. stay alive 2. love and respect THEMSELVES and 3. achieve the happiness and goals they set for themselves.
Fair enough. i would say that this is the category of parent who is worried sick and given an option which seems attractive but which is exploiting their feelings of desperation. But there are many parents particularly who post on Struggling teens who seem to take their kids post programme mistakes and errors as a personal slight or who are genuinely offended if they send a kid to a place against their will and then upon visiting are met with any level of hostility. The response to these posts is often (not always and not by everyone) to vindicate the parental outrage that the kid is not reacting the way that they had hoped. There is in many cases a philosophy of ownership and an ironic sense of entitlement. " i am entitled to a well behave kid" When i am mad at my child i am entitled to expect that the rest of the family will shun them too. for obvious reasons I am not going to post the numerous specifc examples.
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True, but how are any of us ever going to know. The same effect could take place by tough displine at home, drawing a hard line. The kids feel wronged or their rights violated and never see you in the same way again or afraid to challenge the rules because they dont want to be grounded again. This effect doesnt have to be limited to a TBS stay.....
You'll know if you want to know. Discipline, drawing a hard line, being grounded doesn't result in PTSD or severe 'depression'. If a kid is afraid to challenge the rules, the environment is too authoritarian, whether at home or program. If the rules are called 'agreements', that's manipulating and deceptive. If the punishment is too extreme, that's abusive.
It's true though, when your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
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Why the focus on drawing a hard line anyway? of course kids need boundaries but this rhetoric of discipline and hardline rules makes no sense. Few workplaces have such a philosophy and those which do have a high turnover rate because they suck and people hate being there. What is the wider social good of continuous discipline, excessive structure and a long list of rules anyway?
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Hard lines are way overused, but there is a time and place for hard lines. If 'any' kid is breaking things in my home, for instance, I'm going to draw a damn hard line if necessary. Zero tolerance is unrealistic and ineffective.
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Hard lines are way overused, but there is a time and place for hard lines. If 'any' kid is breaking things in my home, for instance, I'm going to draw a damn hard line if necessary. Zero tolerance is unrealistic and ineffective.
I am an adamant believer that Hard lines are effective in various situations where you can live with some flexibility and pose a warning or two...... But, in my opinion Zero tolerance is ineffective only for the kid who just broke the rules, because he is gone, history....... but extremely effective on the other kids witnessing the rules being properly enforced.
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It's an effective tactic indeed. For example, one well-equipped, adequately-executed armed assault on a Therapeutic Boarding School with accompanying arson and Al-Qaeda-like execution of any adults who weren't annihilated in the initial attack, will effectively scare potential programmies out of the business, possibly scare some others into shutdown, wise up a great many parents to a danger they weren't considering (thereby reducing demand as well as supply), and terrify other programmies into possibly self-destructive actions.
The process should be repeated for maximum effectiveness.
And it will not initiate the usual counter-response (as in patriotic, familial, or other situations where lives are threatened), as these people have nothing to fall back on but their own sadism. They'll fall like a house of cards.
So, yes, TheWho, Zero Tolerance is an extremely effective technique and I'm glad you've suggested it.
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Hard lines are way overused, but there is a time and place for hard lines. If 'any' kid is breaking things in my home, for instance, I'm going to draw a damn hard line if necessary. Zero tolerance is unrealistic and ineffective.
I am an adamant believer that Hard lines are effective in various situations where you can live with some flexibility and pose a warning or two...... But, in my opinion Zero tolerance is ineffective only for the kid who just broke the rules, because he is gone, history....... but extremely effective on the other kids witnessing the rules being properly enforced.
Is this possibly why you had a hard time with your daughter. A hardline is a hardline, as in, you will not hit me again, you will not break my personal belongings, etc. There's no room for 'flexibility' with a hardline. Zero tolerance will not be 'effective' for some 'witnesses', some will line up to be the next to challenge the ridiculous policy. Why do you think kids in TBS spend their first few months in restrictions? Too many irrational, hardlines. No room for negotiation. No flexibility.
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I don?t think zero tolerance is effective in all instances or situations. For example if my daughter had a sleep over and one of her friends threw a brick and shattered the bedroom window for the fun of it, that person would not be allowed back into my home. On the other hand if one of her friends were chewing gum at the dinner table and we reminded her that we had a rule against that and we needed to remind her everytime she came over I don?t think we would kick her out because of it, we would work with her.
So not all consequences apply to all situations.
Schools need to enforce rules and address problems more quickly because they would never catch up. If a child took a marker and wrote on the wall and the approach was ?Oh, please don?t do that we have a rule against it?, ?Then 3 more kids do it and you respond the same way??..then 5 kids and at the same time kids are jumping and standing on their desk.. and your response is ?We have rules against that, please don?t do that?. Everyone loses??When you have 1 teacher/person and several kids you need to set clear boundaries, nip it in the bud and hand out harsh consequences and set an example.
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Zero tolerance will not be 'effective' for some 'witnesses',
This is true. All relevent research shows that when a subject witnesses the punishment of another, it has nearly zero effect on subsequent behaviors of the subject.
One easy case in point is the death penalty. Study after study show that the death penalty has no inhibitive value - no matter how many we execute for some offense, let's say murder, there is absolutely zero effect relating to deterrence.
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Zero tolerance will not be 'effective' for some 'witnesses',
This is true. All relevent research shows that when a subject witnesses the punishment of another, it has nearly zero effect on subsequent behaviors of the subject.
One easy case in point is the death penalty. Study after study show that the death penalty has no inhibitive value - no matter how many we execute for some offense, let's say murder, there is absolutely zero effect relating to deterrence.
Yet, they continue to kill (hearts, minds, bodies) in the name of good, cause they don't know what else to do, and/or to satiate their sadistic desires.
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I do not believe in the death penalty at all. However at least in the case of a prisoner on death row, they have been before a judge and jury with legal representation. They have been found guilty of a serious crime and this while undoubtedly barbaric is the sentence a judge has handed down which the convicted criminal has the right to appeal. Also nobody has the hypocrisy to claim it is an act in the criminals best interest. it is usually promoted as what is best for wider society
A kid who is locked up in a TBS has none of these rights and is told that the action is in their best interest. Nobody independent (in most cases) makes the judgement call
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Well, there is the whole thing that dead people can not commit crimes and people IN jail are not elsewhere committing the same crimes..
it just comes down to if you're willing to kill or incarcerate for life or not. :o
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Zero tolerance will not be 'effective' for some 'witnesses',
True, but this can be effective for many (maybe not all). I don?t think any set deterrent is going to be effective for everyone that is watching. If a kid shows up at football practice high or drunk and gets kicked off the team, then that will be a deterrent for the others. The coach has defined a rule and implemented corrective action or punishment and sends a message to others on the team. I am sure there would be other kids who will do the same thing to defy authority or make a point but for the majority it can be effective.
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Zero tolerance will not be 'effective' for some 'witnesses',
True, but this can be effective for many (maybe not all). I don?t think any set deterrent is going to be effective for everyone that is watching. If a kid shows up at football practice high or drunk and gets kicked off the team, then that will be a deterrent for the others. The coach has defined a rule and implemented corrective action or punishment and sends a message to others on the team. I am sure there would be other kids who will do the same thing to defy authority or make a point but for the majority it can be effective.
You got some proof to go with that assertion, Who?
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Zero tolerance will not be 'effective' for some 'witnesses',
True, but this can be effective for many (maybe not all). I don?t think any set deterrent is going to be effective for everyone that is watching. If a kid shows up at football practice high or drunk and gets kicked off the team, then that will be a deterrent for the others. The coach has defined a rule and implemented corrective action or punishment and sends a message to others on the team. I am sure there would be other kids who will do the same thing to defy authority or make a point but for the majority it can be effective.
You got some proof to go with that assertion, Who?
Actually it happened when I was running track in high school. The word got out about this kid on the football team and everyone was talking about how their parents would kill them if that happened to them and you could see the kids were a little more cautious about using and there wasn?t another instance, at least, while I was there.
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Anecdotes do not constitute statistical efficacy, Who. This is widely known, and it's not going to fly here.
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Anecdotes do not constitute statistical efficacy, Who. This is widely known, and it's not going to fly here.
I looked back at the other posts and didnt see any statistics there either. Does this apply to everyone?
I was sharing my experience, why so pissy?
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You have no experience.
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Anecdotes do not constitute statistical efficacy, Who. This is widely known, and it's not going to fly here.
I looked back at the other posts and didnt see any statistics there either. Does this apply to everyone?
I was sharing my experience, why so pissy?
Because you said "If a kid shows up at football practice high or drunk and gets kicked off the team, then that will be a deterrent for the others.", which is an ASSERTION (with no basis other than anecdotal evidence) which you spoke in a conversation about deterrance, yet there is actual statistics proving that punishment-deterrance does not work.
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, what is it?
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Anecdotes do not constitute statistical efficacy, Who. This is widely known, and it's not going to fly here.
I looked back at the other posts and didnt see any statistics there either. Does this apply to everyone?
I was sharing my experience, why so pissy?
Because you said "If a kid shows up at football practice high or drunk and gets kicked off the team, then that will be a deterrent for the others.", which is an ASSERTION (with no basis other than anecdotal evidence) which you spoke in a conversation about deterrance, yet there is actual statistics proving that punishment-deterrance does not work.
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, what is it?
Its not just an assertion, this was an example of what I have experienced. I didn?t base my opinion or conclusions based on this one event. You believe something different and claim they are backed by statistics, that is fine, Niles.
I see it differently as do many other people. Punishment is and has been an effective means to deal with kids especially in a group setting. There may be more effective and less effective methods depending on the group or situation but as a whole punishment is effective...I just cant agree with you on this one.
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Its not just an assertion, this was an example of what I have experienced.
It's not piss, it's rain! Its not JUST an assertion, its anecdotal!
I didn?t base my opinion or conclusions based on this one event.
Yes you did.
You believe something different and claim they are backed by statistics, that is fine, Niles.
Welcome to the educated world! Hint: that's how science works as well.
I see it differently as do many other people.
You can't define what is true or not by consensus, that's called 'truthyness', or 'bullshit' depending on what tone you wish to use with the person who thinks that just because a lot of people think something is true, taht it is.
Punishment is and has been an effective means to deal with kids especially in a group setting.
Says who, YOU? That is ANOTHER bullshit assertion! You're not an expert and you lack research or data to suggest that what you say is true, its just an empty statement. Just because someone says so does not make it true!
There may be more effective and less effective methods depending on the group or situation but as a whole punishment is effective...I just cant agree with you on this one.
Who cares? You're obviously unable to debate or seperate fact from fiction, wishful thinking from hypothesis and you have no concept of data, data collection, or what empiricism is!
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wow this is a deep philosophical discussion ubt as with most of the conversations here nothing gets decided. this place reminds me of the "argument shop" from monty python!!!!
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There is no decision to make except for TheWho's ability to accept fact and truth, or not.
:roll:
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but it seems that there are no true facs here. there is only heresay on both sides. no one seems to have any true up to date facts abou this place. i dunno but it seems all threads except for HLA seem ot off point
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Appadavits, decades of consistent accusations of abuse, closed programs with findings consistent with the accusations, psychological studies, links by association, and published deaths.
Hum, I guess those don't count?
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wow this is a deep philosophical discussion ubt as with most of the conversations here nothing gets decided. this place reminds me of the "argument shop" from monty python!!!!
Yea, I know!!! Parenting has been going on for thousands of years and now Niles insists he has proof it doesn?t work!!! Where would any of us be if we were not held accountable for our actions?.. I don?t think we need to fund a study for that one!!
Punishment worked thousands of years ago and it works today?.you hit your brother you get time out??. You steal from the cookie jar you lose dessert?..you break a window, you have to pay for it!!!
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What the hell would you know about parenting, anyway? You had to pay other people to do it. Couldn't hurt your daughter enough yourself or what?
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What the hell would you know about parenting, anyway? You had to pay other people to do it. Couldn't hurt your daughter enough yourself or what?
???
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wow this is a deep philosophical discussion ubt as with most of the conversations here nothing gets decided. this place reminds me of the "argument shop" from monty python!!!!
Yea, I know!!! Parenting has been going on for thousands of years and now Niles insists he has proof it doesn?t work!!! Where would any of us be if we were not held accountable for our actions?.. I don?t think we need to fund a study for that one!!
Punishment worked thousands of years ago and it works today?.you hit your brother you get time out??. You steal from the cookie jar you lose dessert?..you break a window, you have to pay for it!!!
Nice try.
You said "punishments work". I said "prove it".
Still waiting.
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You're not asking the troll to post more fucked numbers, are you?
Asking a programmie for parenting advice is like asking a fish for running techniques.
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You're not asking the troll to post more fucked numbers, are you?
Asking a programmie for parenting advice is like asking a fish for running techniques.
Hey, the amphibian ancestor sure did a good job.
Can't say too much about Who though.
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The Who is pretty darned narcissistic, and his self-focus is making it tough for information about ASR to actually be in the thread about ASR.
Which I'm sure is just exactly what he wants.
He's a troll.
Julie
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The Who is pretty darned narcissistic, and his self-focus is making it tough for information about ASR to actually be in the thread about ASR.
Which I'm sure is just exactly what he wants.
He's a troll.
Julie
Thank God!!! That's what I've been trying to say. Robert seems intent on proving him wrong and in that process a lot of good, clear, concise information is being lost along with a lot of frustrated readers. We all know he's wrong. Anyone with half a brain who has read even a few pages of the thread knows he's wrong. Do you really plan on keeping this up until he admits he's wrong? Cuz it ain't gonna happen and a lot time's being wasted. Even regulars are getting tired of it and leaving.
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What the hell would you know about parenting, anyway? You had to pay other people to do it. Couldn't hurt your daughter enough yourself or what?
???
What don't you understand about the questions?
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What the hell would you know about parenting, anyway? You had to pay other people to do it. Couldn't hurt your daughter enough yourself or what?
???
What don't you understand about the questions?
I don?t know what the questions are in response to
The question(s) do not make any sense?It appears milk is asking if I hired someone to raise my kids. My daughters mother was home full time?he may be assuming child care or nannies??.. I know some people hire daycare providers while they are at work, but I wouldn?t call it hiring people to raise their kids. There is a need for some people to watch their children while they earn money.
Then there is an assumption we abused our daughter, what is up with that?
See what I mean? How do you respond to questions like this?
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Well, you did put her directly into Rudy Bentz' hands and paid for it, so I can see where Milk would say you paid someone else to hurt your child, as Rudy is a seasoned child abuser with a long, long history, abundantly documented by vast and sundry people from coast to coast (literally).
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Well, you did put her directly into Rudy Bentz' hands and paid for it, so I can see where Milk would say you paid someone else to hurt your child, as Rudy is a seasoned child abuser with a long, long history, abundantly documented by vast and sundry people from coast to coast (literally).
Smearing people over here now? Still feeding your personal needs....See thats what I am saying DJ, stay focused on regulation and the kids....put your anger and hatred aside and focus on the task we talked about.
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Well, you did put her directly into Rudy Bentz' hands and paid for it, so I can see where Milk would say you paid someone else to hurt your child, as Rudy is a seasoned child abuser with a long, long history, abundantly documented by vast and sundry people from coast to coast (literally).
Smearing people over here now? Still feeding your personal needs....See thats what I am saying DJ, stay focused on regulation and the kids....put your anger and hatred aside and focus on the task we talked about.
No, Scooter. I'm not smearing anyone. I know Rudy far better than you ever will and he is a child abuser. You don't know him like I do or like the kids who were abused by him. In my opinion he should be in prison (not just for killing a man while driving drunk, but also for abusing children).
I'm not angry about anything at all, just passing on the "data" about a child abuser. Just do a search on his name here and you'll find dozens of his victims.
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Oh, We didnt see this on the ASR web site so how can we believe it?
I think this was your condition right? Ha,Ha,
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Oh, We didnt see this on the ASR web site so how can we believe it?
I think this was your condition right? Ha,Ha,
I don't care what you believe. You already admitted to me that you know about the manslaughter and you still sent your kid to be abused by him.
You're a great parent, Who. Good job.
And my "condition" was that I would only use current staff listed on the website because that is the only data that ASR is holding out. You, on the other hand, just make it up as you go along...
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Oh, We didnt see this on the ASR web site so how can we believe it?
I think this was your condition right? Ha,Ha,
I don't care what you believe. You already admitted to me that you know about the manslaughter and you still sent your kid to be abused by him.
You're a great parent, Who. Good job.
And my "condition" was that I would only use current staff listed on the website because that is the only data that ASR is holding out. You, on the other hand, just make it up as you go along...
still stings doesnt it? So does ASR have licensed counselors?.... Just kidding......
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i think what stings is rudy's cock in your ass, who. but i bet you dig the pain.
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just thought this admission should be archived in the proper location. this was copied from another thread.
Dysfunction Junction
Prolific contributor
Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 2529
Location: Measured Reason, USA
Posted: 17 Apr 2007 21:11 Post subject:
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TheWho wrote:
Quote:
We all know these places don't resemble high schools
We do?
Quote:
For now, I'll have to go with the reports of attendees and a former staff member that there is indeed no phone to report abuse rather than your speculation about the matter.
The staff member may be right, he knows more than I do if he worked there.
I didn’t see where I was speculating, just passing along what I know. I don’t see a problem with their set up, personally, it seems to work well for the kids and the parents. I think what many kids would like is more phone time not privacy, is the feed back I have heard. If they feel they are being unfairly treated they should tell their parents when they talk to them.
If someone feels this falls short of a standard it should be brought to someone’s attention to get it clarified, so they can be comfortable with it, I don’t see this as a big deal to resolve.
OK, this is what I wanted to know and for you to enumerate. Even if it's illegal to treat children this way, it's fine with you. If you feel otherwise, then who better to resolve it than you? You are the one that has hooks in ASR - ask them for a response and post the abuse hotline number if they have one. "I know it's illegal, but I won't lift a finger to get it resolved or up to code"? What happened to caring about the kids' legal rights?
Once more, it's the law that any child in treatment must have access to a free phone to report abuse. You are saying it's OK with you and you condone (or at least won't bother to look into it) that the children aren't being treated in accordance with the law. Thank you at least for admitting it to us.
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality."
-Arnold Schopenhauer
:cry: :cry: :cry:
program supporters like this simply don't care if the kids are being treated illegally or not. it doesn't matter to them at all. this is a damning indictment of this program supporter. and it's very sad for his child and those that are still there that parents would turn a blind eye to the law.
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just thought this admission should be archived in the proper location. this was copied from another thread.
Dysfunction Junction
Prolific contributor
Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 2529
Location: Measured Reason, USA
Posted: 17 Apr 2007 21:11 Post subject:
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TheWho wrote:
Quote:
We all know these places don't resemble high schools
We do?
Quote:
For now, I'll have to go with the reports of attendees and a former staff member that there is indeed no phone to report abuse rather than your speculation about the matter.
The staff member may be right, he knows more than I do if he worked there.
I didn’t see where I was speculating, just passing along what I know. I don’t see a problem with their set up, personally, it seems to work well for the kids and the parents. I think what many kids would like is more phone time not privacy, is the feed back I have heard. If they feel they are being unfairly treated they should tell their parents when they talk to them.
If someone feels this falls short of a standard it should be brought to someone’s attention to get it clarified, so they can be comfortable with it, I don’t see this as a big deal to resolve.
OK, this is what I wanted to know and for you to enumerate. Even if it's illegal to treat children this way, it's fine with you. If you feel otherwise, then who better to resolve it than you? You are the one that has hooks in ASR - ask them for a response and post the abuse hotline number if they have one. "I know it's illegal, but I won't lift a finger to get it resolved or up to code"? What happened to caring about the kids' legal rights?
Once more, it's the law that any child in treatment must have access to a free phone to report abuse. You are saying it's OK with you and you condone (or at least won't bother to look into it) that the children aren't being treated in accordance with the law. Thank you at least for admitting it to us.
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality."
-Arnold Schopenhauer
:cry: :cry: :cry:
program supporters like this simply don't care if the kids are being treated illegally or not. it doesn't matter to them at all. this is a damning indictment of this program supporter. and it's very sad for his child and those that are still there that parents would turn a blind eye to the law.
Thewho responded:Do your own work.
We were talking about if kids could call home in privacy or not and we established that they can. So now you want to see if they have 24 hour access to a phone... we need to review the law... does it apply to boarding schools?........ what are the parameters?....do cell phones apply?...
I dont believe they are breaking any laws, because I dont check for you doesnt mean they are guilty. Tough crowd around here...............
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We reviewed the law. Here's the update (moved from another thread):
You are correct, Robert.
"DSS passed the information on to the state Office of Child Care Services, which sent an investigator, Eric Lieberman, to the academy.
Academy administrators told Lieberman it was true that students were denied sleep for 19 or 20 hours during the first LifeStep session, called "The Truth." Staff and students might stay up all night, then break for a nap between 5 and 7 a.m., then continue the session until 2 the next afternoon, the administrators said.
It (OCCS) cited the school for"using behavior management techniques which subject students to verbal abuse, ridicule and humiliation, denial ofsufficient sleep, and repetitive exercise as a response to an infraction of a rule."
OCCS also cited the school for monitoring students' telephone calls and mail. The agency said that the right to privacy incommunications, even for juveniles, can be restricted only by court order -- for example (editing note: this is exactly the argument TheWho used earlier in the thread and it's 100% illegal!), if a therapist believes that the teen's communication should be monitored, perhaps to support a young person through a crisis in relations with his orher family -- and then only temporarily.
This is undeniable proof that ASR is willingly, wontonly and intentionally breaking a law which absolutely does apply to them - and they've been doing it for years.
So this puts this issue to rest. Not only is ASR breaking the law, they've already been cited for it. Thanks for contacting ASR, Who and posting the results of your conversation. You've incriminated them. They must be thrilled about your being their field representative/mouthpiece!
You were saying, Who? :roll:
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Anyone that has been in a debate or pulled their chair up to a meeting may understand or recognize that something is missing........ take a look at the last several pages .........Give it a few minutes ... Take your time............................................................................................................................................ Okay times up, what did you see? Nothing?.... you mean the table is empty? No requirements? No documentation? So what are they all referring to, what law? We have all been listening to chin music all day. People citing this happened, this is required, that is required. But when asked to provide the requirements we hear crickets. They all know ASR meets the requirements and the laws of Massachusetts. They are trying to use laws that apply to a mental hospital and apply it to ASR , which they are not.
Bottom line, take what you read here and ask the school when you call and say you heard it on Fornits, don’t panic they didn’t hang up on you, they need to clear their throats maybe....... and then ask away. They will clear up any concerns you have.
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Desperation in its purest form.
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Anyone that has been in a debate or pulled their chair up to a meeting may understand or recognize that something is missing........ take a look at the last several pages .........Give it a few minutes ... Take your time............................................................................................................................................ Okay times up, what did you see? Nothing?.... you mean the table is empty? No requirements? No documentation? So what are they all referring to, what law? We have all been listening to chin music all day. People citing this happened, this is required, that is required. But when asked to provide the requirements we hear crickets. They all know ASR meets the requirements and the laws of Massachusetts. They are trying to use laws that apply to a mental hospital and apply it to ASR , which they are not.
Bottom line, take what you read here and ask the school when you call and say you heard it on Fornits, don’t panic they didn’t hang up on you, they need to clear their throats maybe....... and then ask away. They will clear up any concerns you have.
and make sure you tell them you're recording the conversation... then the silence will be genuine.
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We reviewed the law. Here's the update (moved from another thread):
You are correct, Robert.
"DSS passed the information on to the state Office of Child Care Services, which sent an investigator, Eric Lieberman, to the academy.
Academy administrators told Lieberman it was true that students were denied sleep for 19 or 20 hours during the first LifeStep session, called "The Truth." Staff and students might stay up all night, then break for a nap between 5 and 7 a.m., then continue the session until 2 the next afternoon, the administrators said.
It (OCCS) cited the school for"using behavior management techniques which subject students to verbal abuse, ridicule and humiliation, denial ofsufficient sleep, and repetitive exercise as a response to an infraction of a rule."
OCCS also cited the school for monitoring students' telephone calls and mail. The agency said that the right to privacy incommunications, even for juveniles, can be restricted only by court order -- for example (editing note: this is exactly the argument TheWho used earlier in the thread and it's 100% illegal!), if a therapist believes that the teen's communication should be monitored, perhaps to support a young person through a crisis in relations with his orher family -- and then only temporarily.
This is undeniable proof that ASR is willingly, wontonly and intentionally breaking a law which absolutely does apply to them - and they've been doing it for years.
So this puts this issue to rest. Not only is ASR breaking the law, they've already been cited for it. Thanks for contacting ASR, Who and posting the results of your conversation. You've incriminated them. They must be thrilled about your being their field representative/mouthpiece!
You were saying, Who? :roll:
What Who says makes a lot of sense. ASR was cited by OCCS for breaking the very law TheWho says they are in compliance with.
It is funny though to watch him sink down into the abyss of meaninglessness. He has no relevence at all. He's been caught out there with documented evidence that ASR has already been busted by the state for restricting communications of juveniles without a court order. It's cut and dried - no "interpretation" or "research" or "examination" is required. ASR was already busted for it and now Who has a big poopy in his diaper and is throwing a fit because he was proven to be lying yet again.
Grow up, Who. And change your didy - it stinks!
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He's been caught out there with documented evidence
The old, Documented evidence without the documents statement. This is getting old....show us the Documents
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He's been caught out there with documented evidence
The old, Documented evidence without the documents statement. This is getting old....show us the Documents
Ha,Ha,Ha... I'm not going to do your busy work. If you have documents that show otherwise, post them.
We have already established these facts and I think everyone is comfortable with where we're at in this debate:
[/u]"OCCS also cited the school for monitoring students' telephone calls and mail. The agency said that the right to privacy incommunications, even for juveniles, can be restricted only by court order -- for example (editing note: this is exactly the argument TheWho used earlier in the thread and it's 100% illegal!), if a therapist believes that the teen's communication should be monitored, perhaps to support a young person through a crisis in relations with his orher family -- and then only temporarily."[/u]
Sorry, Who, but these are the facts. I guess you can take it up with OCCS and investigator Lieberman and try to change the records Ha,Ha,Ha...
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Ha,Ha,Ha... I'm not going to do your busy work. If you have documents that show otherwise, post them.
We have already established these facts and I think everyone is comfortable with where we're at in this debate:
[/u]"OCCS also cited the school for monitoring students' telephone calls and mail. The agency said that the right to privacy incommunications, even for juveniles, can be restricted only by court order -- for example (editing note: this is exactly the argument TheWho used earlier in the thread and it's 100% illegal!), if a therapist believes that the teen's communication should be monitored, perhaps to support a young person through a crisis in relations with his orher family -- and then only temporarily."[/u]
Sorry, Who, but these are the facts. I guess you can take it up with OCCS and investigator Lieberman and try to change the records Ha,Ha,Ha...
I know you get mad mad about this, Who, but you can't change history and the state's records to suit your agenda...Ha,Ha,Ha. You'll have to take this up with the state if you don't like their ruling, not fornits! Do your own work, I'm not going to do it for you. Ha,Ha, Ha...
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This is so typical when they have no evidence:
The old, Documented evidence without the documents statement. This is getting old....show us the Documents
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The evidence is that ASR has already been cited for it. They're repeat offenders!
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The evidence is that ASR has already been cited for it. They're repeat offenders!
Show the citation then and lets end this already. People are starting not to believe you.
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I already provided the link to the news story. If you want to call the reporter and the Valley Advocate liars, take it up with them. Massachusetts does not provide online databasing, so it can't be had over the internet.
Sorry, but the facts are facts. OCCS visited ASR and found two violations, as reported in the article. One for humiliating behavior modification, sleep deprivation and physical punishment and one for restricting communications.
If you don't like the results of their investigation, then go to OCCS and complain. I'm just the middleman providing the newspaper article. My credibility is not an issue. You are saying you don't believe the reporter (nobody asked for a retraction!). Write her an email or call her and confront her if that's what you need to do.
Read it yourself and tell Ms. Kraft you don't believe her.
http://cafety.org/index2.php?option=com ... f=1&id=279 (http://cafety.org/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=279)
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So this is where we're at on this issue. Unless somebody can provide evidence that the reporter is lying, we'll have to go with it.
I think everyone agrees that ASR did break the law and was cited for breaking it (except TheWho, who's in iraq looking for the WMD's! Ha, Ha, Ha...just kidding)
Ha,Ha,Ha... I'm not going to do your busy work. If you have documents that show otherwise, post them.
We have already established these facts and I think everyone is comfortable with where we're at in this debate:
[/u]"OCCS also cited the school for monitoring students' telephone calls and mail. The agency said that the right to privacy incommunications, even for juveniles, can be restricted only by court order -- for example (editing note: this is exactly the argument TheWho used earlier in the thread and it's 100% illegal!), if a therapist believes that the teen's communication should be monitored, perhaps to support a young person through a crisis in relations with his orher family -- and then only temporarily."[/u]
Sorry, Who, but these are the facts. I guess you can take it up with OCCS and investigator Lieberman and try to change the records Ha,Ha,Ha...
I know you get mad mad about this, Who, but you can't change history and the state's records to suit your agenda...Ha,Ha,Ha. You'll have to take this up with the state if you don't like their ruling, not fornits! Do your own work, I'm not going to do it for you. Ha,Ha, Ha...
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So this is where we're at on this issue. Unless somebody can provide evidence that the reporter is lying
Well gee.. Don't cha think ASR would have sued em for Libel if the information was incorrect... it's not like programs hesitate to do that... Just check out dchfans...
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So this is where we're at on this issue. Unless somebody can provide evidence that the reporter is lying
Well gee.. Don't cha think ASR would have sued em for Libel if the information was incorrect... it's not like programs hesitate to do that... Just check out dchfans...
Well your right, psy, thats why it doesn’t add up. No one has seen this report yet. If a school does get citied it puts them on the "Fast Track" for follow-up inspections if a problem is found and they are put under a microscope. If any violations did occur it was probably at start-up (as most of them are because often they are not familiar with the details of the local requirements when they set-up shop) and quickly adjusted to bring them within requirements. But if changes were not made "Over night" we would of heard more about these allegations.
Just doesn’t pass the sniff test for me…………… But I will wait to see what evidence is brought to the table.
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I already provided the link to the news story. If you want to call the reporter and the Valley Advocate liars, take it up with them. Massachusetts does not provide online databasing, so it can't be had over the internet.
Sorry, but the facts are facts. OCCS visited ASR and found two violations, as reported in the article. One for humiliating behavior modification, sleep deprivation and physical punishment and one for restricting communications.
If you don't like the results of their investigation, then go to OCCS and complain. I'm just the middleman providing the newspaper article. My credibility is not an issue. You are saying you don't believe the reporter (nobody asked for a retraction!). Write her an email or call her and confront her if that's what I want you to do.
Read it yourself and tell Ms. Kraft you don't believe her.
http://cafety.org/index2.php?option=com ... f=1&id=279 (http://cafety.org/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=279)
This is the evidence. Two citations for two major laws on one visit.
We have come to agreement that these events did happen, as reopted by the Valley Advocate. If someone is looking to disprove these facts, they're going to need some documentation showing this report is incorrect. Until that emerges, we'll go with what we know for sure already - two citations for breaking the law in regard to students' rights.
Don't lose sleep over it Who...Ha,Ha,Ha....You seem really agitated that you can't rewrite history, but you'll have to learn to deal with it in a more healthy way. This obsession you have for posting stuff with no information that refutes this report is wearing on you. Have a drink.......Relax........Take it easy.... Ha,Ha,Ha....
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If any violations did occur it was probably at start-up (as most of them are because often they are not familiar with the details of the local requirements when they set-up shop) and quickly adjusted to bring them within requirements.
What a steamin' pile. In business for a year, and with numerous staff that had migrated from HLA. Quiet the line-up of characters. They knew exactly what they were doing.
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okay this is why people here lose credibility. this article came out in 1999. none of the same staff work for ASR and none of the practices, such as LifeSteps, still exist. seems like people hold this up as the golden goose which should spell the end of ASR yet it holds no water considering the changes that have occured inthe last few years. you also keep bringing up old staff like Rudy Benz, who has been gone for 4 years. so if you have something recent to complain about show it here and maybe others will listen to you. the whole emotional growth model has been scrapped for a more clinical approach.
hey Deb find something written in the last 3-4 years!!!
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So, I think we have established that ASR has a history of violating the law and it appears they continue to do so today. Here's the latest information we have:
I already provided the link to the news story. If you want to call the reporter and the Valley Advocate liars, take it up with them. Massachusetts does not provide online databasing, so it can't be had over the internet.
Sorry, but the facts are facts. OCCS visited ASR and found two violations, as reported in the article. One for humiliating behavior modification, sleep deprivation and physical punishment and one for restricting communications.
If you don't like the results of their investigation, then go to OCCS and complain. I'm just the middleman providing the newspaper article. My credibility is not an issue. You are saying you don't believe the reporter (nobody asked for a retraction!). Write her an email or call her and confront her if that's what I want you to do.
Read it yourself and tell Ms. Kraft you don't believe her.
http://cafety.org/index2.php?option=com ... f=1&id=279 (http://cafety.org/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=279)
This is the evidence. Two citations for two major laws on one visit.
We have come to agreement that these events did happen, as reopted by the Valley Advocate. If someone is looking to disprove these facts, they're going to need some documentation showing this report is incorrect. Until that emerges, we'll go with what we know for sure already - two citations for breaking the law in regard to students' rights.
Don't lose sleep over it Who...Ha,Ha,Ha....You seem really agitated that you can't rewrite history, but you'll have to learn to deal with it in a more healthy way. This obsession you have for posting stuff with no information that refutes this report is wearing on you. Have a drink.......Relax........Take it easy.... Ha,Ha,Ha....
Until someone can prove that ASR no longer engages in this law breaking behavior, we'll have to go with what's on record - that ASR has ben cited multiple times for violating the law as it applies to its treatment of children.
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Lets take a look at the citations before we convict everyone. It sounds like they are a decade old. I am sure they dont cite someone and then leave for 8 years without follow up.
Anonwho
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ASR is not licensed by OCCS(EEC), that's a bone that got picked to death by lawyers and apparently some deal was made. We're trying to find out the details to this deal, if it exist.
Read the whole article and you'll see that this pissed OCCS off because they can't regulate(oversee) a program outside of their bounds, ASR knows this. But also in the article it was said that OCCS thought ASR was trying to have it "both ways", Private school license that provides special services to special needs children.
Forgot: Thats why nothing else happened after the citations, I believe...
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ASR is not licensed by OCCS(EEC), that's a bone that got picked to death by lawyers and apparently some deal was made. We're trying to find out the details to this deal, if it exist.
Read the whole article and you'll see that this pissed OCCS off because they can't regulate(oversee) a program outside of their bounds, ASR knows this. But also in the article it was said that OCCS thought ASR was trying to have it "both ways", Private school license that provides special services to special needs children.
Forgot: Thats why nothing else happened after the citations, I believe...
Re-read it, Good point, Be interesting to see what occured back then.
anonwho
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ASR is not licensed by OCCS(EEC), that's a bone that got picked to death by lawyers and apparently some deal was made. We're trying to find out the details to this deal, if it exist.
Read the whole article and you'll see that this pissed OCCS off because they can't regulate(oversee) a program outside of their bounds, ASR knows this. But also in the article it was said that OCCS thought ASR was trying to have it "both ways", Private school license that provides special services to special needs children.
Forgot: Thats why nothing else happened after the citations, I believe...
Having been through this, let's see if I can help you understand.
Program opens. If they even bother to report to DHR, they claim to be a private boarding school (PBS). They are typically listed with the DOE as such, because they know they can't avoid that, and it looks good on the advertising. They aren't yet accredited because that takes years. They may or may not be members of an industry association.
All the while they are advertising to the public to be a TBS, providing dx, assessments, and/or providing treatment to struggling teens.
Parents enroll their kids under the reasonable assumption that the program is licensed as a TC. Really, who would think otherwise?
Years pass (10) and all is hunky dorey. They've attained accreditation- the First TBS to be accredited as a Secondary School rather than a "Special Purpose" school. Won't go into the political scam associated with that, but seems the program 'knew' someone on the agency's committee.
DHR gets a tip that the program is advertising and operating as an RTC in violation of the law. Not only that, but they're running an unlicensed wilderness program next door. Ample (about a ream) of documentation is provided to substantiate the complaint and ease DHRs research burden. Actually all the work was done for them, all they had to do was make a ruling.
DHR inquires with the program, and reports back that the wilderness program will be licensed as such, but determines the program is a private boarding school. Not much explanation provided.
Time passes. One unhappy complaintant turns into many. Each of the many send their documentation to DHR and emplore them to do their job and license the program, for the safety of the children.
Weeks pass. DHR responds and determines for the second time that they are still a PBS.
The many write individual letters to the Governor and plead for his assistance. Gov gets right on it and assigns a special investigator. And what a wonderful investigator. Very professional and interested in making the right thing happen.
Weeks pass, many interviews, many documents provided, many promises that the right thing would happen.
DHR (believe it or not) rules for the third time that they are a PBS.
:rofl:
In shock, the many pull back, regroup and strategize.
As it turns out, the program attorney had claimed that there was no therapy happening at the TBS, only at the WP which was already licensed. :cry2:
In the meantime, new director appointed at DHR.
(This is the part I refer to as the stars being lined up just so)
New director is sent the same reams of documents. The TBS refuses to allow him onto the property to conduct an investigation, so a court order is acquired and a thorough investigation ensues.
Many, many weeks pass.
In the meantime, a complaint is filed with DHR against the 'licensed' wilderness program, which IS under DHR jurisdiction. DHR conducts an investigation and cites the wilderness program with 33 pages of violations. (unheard of!!) Most related to the WP running the TBS kids through a shorter, harsher, version of their 28-day program without documentation, along with inadequate calories, and various asundery of other things.
Many more weeks pass.
DHR finally determines that indeed the TBS is operating as an RTC in violation of the law. Orders them to apply for licensure or cease operating.
::deal:: ::cheers:: ::bigsmilebounce::
The TBS is no longer classified as a PBS (private corp) and is under DHRs jurisdiction. They can enter the property at anytime unannounced to investigate complaints, as it should be.
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In the case of ASR, it appears that however it transpired, EEC got wind that they were operating in violation of law. They were in the process of negotiating (locking horns, as it were) with the private corp on the need to licensure when the complaint of abuse came in. While investigating the complaint EEC cited other violations they observed.
Whatever happened in the negotiations, no one seems to know at this time, but EEC backed off of ASR. EEC could not force ASR to change the violations noted or 'follow up' on the citations, or issue sanctions.... BECAUSE ASR WAS STILL NOT UNDER THEIR JURISDICTION. They were still classified as a PBS (read private corp), and as reported in the article, 'escorted' them off the property.
I am suspecting that Kraft may have misused the word 'cited'. It may have been more accurate to have stated that EEC 'noted' several other violations of law while there. But, if that is what EEC told her, then in fact they 'cited' them, but couldn't follow up because ASR never came under their jurisdiction.
Ya know, I wish the DHRs would fine the programs for knowingly operating in violation of the law, as they are sanctioned to do. $250-$1000/ day for everyday they've operated in violation would pretty much bankrupt most of them.
Clear?
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Deborah, that is a very detailed and balanced account of what may have transpired. Thank you for putting it all together the way you did for all of us. It was a lot of work and it’s a lot to digest…I would like to re-read it, maybe comment later.
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Thanks Deborah, you saved me from a lot of headaches and nausea I would have gotten trying to piece all of that together....
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Survivor's account from period of late-2003 to mid-2005:
ASR is a boarding school in Cummington, MA that is for kids 13 to 19. It will take anyone who has enough money to pay to get in. The school's therapeutic policy is a group therapy session three days a week lasting three hours per session. Before you do that, you spend another session in there home brewed wilderness program. I got there when you were allowed indoors to sleep so i got lucky. However, this was not a hiking around a mountain type wilderness, this was more like a boot camp type wilderness. You did physical training everyday and every consequence was a physically enduring task, like push-ups or pull-ups. Personally, I liked this a lot more since one of my personal goals was to get in shape. However, for most people this was not very good. Even worse, a good friend of mine has this problem with blood circulation in the cold. She was still subject to doing PT on the floor in the cold with the rest of us, even though a warm and safer area was located less than a forth of a mile away. After being in that wilderness for 29 days, i went on to the main campus.
For the entire time i was in the wilderness I had been plotting to run. Me and a group of friends had it all staged for one night. It turned out that only me and one other person decided to do it. We climbed through a sky window, scaled the roof, and hiked from Cummington, MA to North Hampton, MA through the night. We had shaved off all our facial hair and got buzz cuts to make us look a lot different. We eventually got caught at a bus station the following night. We both got put on a self study. Essentially, you get written assignments from staff members that are semi-therapeutic in nature. They are intended to get you not only thinking about the reasons why you did what you did but also get you thinking about the issues they think you need to change (More on this later). These self studies also consist of work projects, where the staff have certain random physical labor tasks that the school grounds needs done and the students in trouble do them. Anyway, the main problem with ASR was not the physical abuse but the mental abuse you suffer. They were very good at making kids yell at you about things they direct until you broke. You may not understand why you did in group, but you would. And once the lifestep comes around, which is a session that lasts hours, that do various things to make you change. These sessions can last days if they need be. The reason why the program was so effective before my Peer Group got there was because students would get screamed at by other students and the staff would manipulate the situation to get kids to think a certain way. In short, they used brainwashing. This is a hard allegation to prove. However, consider this. Students have found two books on adolescent brainwashing within the school. Personally, during my stay I acquired both these books and had read them in full. I could open up a random page from the book at any given point and cite something that happened that day that was exact to the situation put forth in the book. I had also found various packets that outline the different parts of the program. At one point, I found a sheet describing the third part of there program. It stated that the counselors should be getting the kids lonely, scared, and confused to make them more susceptible to the upcoming life step. It also stated to steer the kids to an end where they will be right up to the breaking point. By using extreme peer pressure and mental stress they create an environment where a young mind can have trouble surviving. All of what I said is true. "
This sounds like an extremely dangerous environment built upon the faulty and abusive premise "break them down and build tem up." This program should be avoided due to its abusive nature and foundation.
ASR was cited by OCCS for these very same abuses years before yet continued the practices anyway.
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TheWho had stated that ASR parents do not seek funds from their school districts to pay for ASR. This lawsuit proves otherwise:
http://http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:r5ZroVb1KugJ:www.sde.ct.gov/sde/lib/sde/PDF/DEPS/Special/Hearing_Decisions/2003/03-121.pdf+%22academy+at+swift+river%22+violation&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us
Considering public school districts DO pay for ASR, how does that impact ASR's responsibilities/behavior under the law? Seems like they's be brought under a different and more strict purview.
Any answers (BESIDES TheWho - don't need rank speculation and guesswork)?
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I dont think this shows parents seek to have their local school districts place kids at ASR. It is just too expensive for one thing, but since I was asked not to opine I will ask if any of the "Guests" out there could answer this one.
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I specifically asked for information from someone other than TheWho.
Are there any credible posters who can weigh in on this subject?
Thanks.
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I'll handle this one.
Well that’s an interesting point, but they generally don’t seek funds…and here is why…. My line of thinking is this way………Pretty much any school district wants to keep their children within the district, if for any reason to control expenses. The expense of sending several children to a neighboring town for ABA services, for example, is enough to tip the scales and recommend the board hire an ABA person themselves when weighing transportation costs, paying the other town, insurance etc. For a school district to recommend spending over $100,000 for one student to attend ASR would make headlines in my area. The school district could pay the salaries of 2 full time teachers for this price.
Its not something that is typical, but, there is always an exception to the rule. A parent could send their child to Harvard or “Disney World” and claim it is therapeutic and try to get compensation from the state if they thought they could get away with it. This child was unilaterally placed at ASR and subsequently Oxford academy with out consulting the school district and then as an after thought tried to get the state/town to pay for it.
Here is the final decision:
FINAL DECISION AND ORDER:
1. The claims that arose before April 25, 2001 are dismissed as barred by the statute of limitation.
2. The Board was unable to evaluate the Student due to the lack of Parental and Student consent for the
evaluation.
3. The Board was not obligated to provide an appropriate program for the Student for the 2001-2002
school year, in light of the Parents’ and Student’s lack of cooperation in planning a program and
consenting to the evaluation.
4. The Board is not responsible for the reimbursement of the Parents’ unilateral placement of the
Student for the 2001-2002 school year.
The Board did not violate the Student’s procedural safeguards on or after April 25, 2001.
6. The Student is not entitled to compensatory education.
7. The Board’s Motion to Dismiss submitted on September 30, 2003, is granted.
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I specifically asked for information from someone other than TheWho.
Are there any credible posters who can weigh in on this subject?
I'm looking for laws that apply to ASR because they take public funds for kids. How does this change the way they have to operate under law?
Thanks.
*Please don't troll up the thread by spamming with repetitive posts or I will ask the mods to remove them. Thanks again.
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I specifically asked for information from someone other than TheWho.
Are there any credible posters who can weigh in on this subject?
I'm looking for laws that apply to ASR because they take public funds for kids. How does this change the way they have to operate under law?
Thanks.
*Please don't troll up the thread by spamming with repetitive posts or I will ask the mods to remove them. Thanks again.
If you look back you will notice that you are the only one who has been repeating posts....... I believe everyone has read your post the first time. Now, be patient and let others respond,
Thank you.
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I repeated my post because you buried it by responding with identical posts, one from your username which you went back and edited afterwards and one anonymously. You posted originally at 9:46am and edited your post 3 times with the last at 11:36am, right after you claimed that you didn't repeat yourself. So save your baby-games for someone else.
The proof:
Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:46 am
I dont think this shows parents seek to have their local school districts place kids at ASR. It is just too expensive for one thing, but since I was asked not to opine I will ask if any of the "Guests" out there could answer this one.
Last edited by TheWho on Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:36 am; edited 3 times in total
Look, I've read your "work" here and I can see your M.O. is to distract from the conversation and to take jabs at people who point out your behavior and then to edit your posts to try to cover up your own behavior when called out. I'm not trying to play games with you and I don't need your snide remarks or to watch you edit posts retroactively to try to make yourself look better.
If you want to play games like this and act like a child, copy my post into your own thread (a disaster area) and make your commentary there. Have at it. But don't insult people's intelligence when anyone can see you edit your posts to try to cover up your cildish commentary and behavior.
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Good, It seems I got your attention, then. If you want to engage in adult conversation and debate try being polite and accepting of all peoples opinions. If you want to exclude people who may not agree with you start a new topic over in “Facilities questions and answers” I will not be responding over in that forum. This wastes time and derails from the subject to attempt to choose who may respond to your posts....
And just for the record I have read your work here also, you may log in if you like or stay anonymous as a guest; it really doesn’t matter to me...... so back to the subject:
As for your question, it is hypothetical, because you have not yet established that ASR accepts public funding. Why waste peoples time and research when it may not apply? Your link was to a family that was trying to get their town to pay for ASR. The town turned them down. Try to establish your premise first as a bases for a good argument.
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Good, It seems I got your attention, then.
Sadly, it seems this is all you're ever after: attention. Maybe it's time to act like a grownup and quit attention whoring.
I see no reason to attend to your opinions. They're uneducated garbage and you blatanly lie all the time (and get caught in it, like today, again) and post solely for the purpose of distraction from the subject and/or attention whoring, so why should anyone listen to your opinions?
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so why should anyone listen to your opinions?
Simply, because it is a different point of view. All points of view should be considered no matter how far fetched or preposterous. This is what causes people to think and decide on their own. Which is what many of us here are striving for.
To attempt to silence someone because they don’t agree with you is counter productive, a waste of peoples time and shows you don’t have a strong position to begin with, which on this case you don’t.
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http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/home.asp?mode=o&ot=2 (http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/home.asp?mode=o&ot=2)
Approved Private Special Educational Schools
These schools, established as, Massachusetts Chapter 766 Approved In-State Schools and Programs that Serve Publicly Funded Special Education Students, are private institutions serving students with disabilities when it has been determined that their needs cannot be accommodated locally.
The right for some public school students with disabilities to attend these schools was established by Chapter 766 of the Acts of 1972. The laws governing placement and tuition in these programs are now encompassed in Chapter 71B of the Massachusetts General Laws.
Approved Special Educational Schools, are monitored by the Department of Education's Program Quality Assurance Services Unit (781) 338-3700.
Looks like ASR received classification as a "Special Education School" specifically for the purpose of accepting funds from public school districts.
This also proves that ASR serves "special needs" kids as well.
ASR's "Special Education" directory listing:
http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/home.asp?m ... t=2&o=2588 (http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/home.asp?mode=o&view=&mcasyear=2006&ot=2&o=2588)
It looks like the Department of Education's Program Quality Assurance Services Unit is a good place to call to get an investigation started into ASR's practices.
They most likely didn't include in their documentation to the state that they force therapy three times per week, use physical punishment for rules infractions and employ unlicensed teachers or they wouldn't have been approved to serve special needs/disabled kids.
Please call them at (781) 338-3700 to initiate an audit of ASR.
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More Half-truths tsk,tsk I thought I recognized the writing!! If you sift through you will notice they are defined as a Special Education school (as a category) but they don’t have a "Special Ed" program as defined by the state.
Call the number and ask if ASR has "Special Education Approved Program"....they will answer "No"....... So why categorize them as special ed school vs regular high school?..... they are someplace inbetween and lean more towards special ed school...
Give them a call!
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[/u]These schools, established as, Massachusetts Chapter 766 Approved In-State Schools and Programs that Serve Publicly Funded Special Education Students, are private institutions serving students with disabilities.[/u]
It's pretty clear. ASR takes special needs kids/kids with disabilities as defined by the state and takes state funds for it. If you don't like the state's position, you should take it up with them to change ASR's classification to something different, but currently it's a "special education school" as defined by the state.
So you're saying they serve special education students without an approved special education program? Isn't that illegal, too?
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Looks like some school districts do refer kids to ASR, so they may take state money, here take a look:
Although Hamilton-Wenham offered the placement, Student refused to attend the Harbor School. In March 2004 Parents requested that Hamilton-Wenham send a referral packet to Swift River Academy. In an attempt to “reconcile their differences,” Hamilton-Wenham sent the packet and Student attended the Swift River Academy “for a couple of days.” On April 7, 2004, an administrator at Swift River informed the parents Student could not remain at Swift River because of “his oppositional behavior and the perceived run-risk.” Between approximately December 2002 and April 2004 Hamilton-Wenham sent out more than a dozen referrals for Student who was accepted at three different therapeutic day schools and two residential programs. Student had either refused to attend the programs or attended for one day and refused to return. In a ruling dated May 6, 2004, the hearing officer found Hamilton-Wenham had no other obligation than to continue to offer the Harbor School placement previously ordered. (S-9)
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:Tr ... cd=7&gl=us (http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:Tr1IOrNFnikJ:www.doe.mass.edu/bsea/decisions/07-2103.doc+school+districts+refer+kids+to+Academy+at+swift+river%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=7&gl=us)
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This is already a known fact. You're late to the party. Maybe if you spent a little less time in the future trying to scuttle the truth and actually looking into it for yourself (I'm not going to do your busywork), you won't need to be proven wrong about these things.
So, we have all agreed then that ASR does in fact take public money, takes special education kids and is classified by the state as a Special Education School.
Now, my original question was (before TheWho set to derailing the topic) "How does public funding affect the way ASR must behave under the law?" Surely they can't force therapy on children or use physical punishment - but they sure do it anyway.
Also, considering they are a Special Education School, what are their requirements for hiring licensed teachers and special education teachers, neither of which are current policy.
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This is already a known fact. You're late to the party. Maybe if you spent a little less time in the future trying to scuttle the truth and actually looking into it for yourself (I'm not going to do your busywork), you won't need to be proven wrong about these things.
You never established ASR was taking public money and were making assumptions. You can not move forward until you have established this as your basis of argument. I had to do this for you (your busy work as you call it, see my last post). Their classification alone doesnt cut it.
Just trying to keep this discussion honest. Now lets move forward.....
Original Question:
How does public funding affect the way ASR must behave under the law?"
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No, you didn't have to do anything for me. The representative at DOE confirmed this for me before I ever posted that ASR took public funds, but I didn't have a statement or link to post, which made the fact no less true, BTW - it was still a fact when I posted it. Nice try at grabbing some credit (at least you proved yourself wrong). Don't get angry with me because you stepped in it again.
http://http://www.parentcheckin.com/staff_pictures_external.asp?progid=%7B9239C59D-474B-445B-9A54-C4C4AD4F2D70%7D#
I'm wondering how a school that is classified by the state as a Special Education School can operate without a single special education teacher, unlicensed teachers and cross-utilized teachers, such as a math teacher with an engineering degree (among numerous others). This seems like a blatant violation of DOE rules, as none of these so-called "teachers" would be allowed to teach in any public school - they're simply not qualified.
Something stinks here (besides a Special Education School masquerading as "College Preperatory" :oops: ).
I think it is time for a formal complaint to the auditor, because there's just too much gaming of the system going on here.
In the meantime, can anyone post the requirements uder law regarding employing licensed teachers in a Special Education School that takes public funds for tuition?
Also, considering that fact that ASR takes special needs kids (as defined by the state) and takes public funding for them, wouldn't they fall under the purview of EEC's rules for special needs clients?
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In the ASR book a black kid from New York had his stay paid for(in full or part) by the state.
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Here are the regulations regarding Special Education Schools in Massachusetts. ASR is in complete violation of the rules. Notation has been added in some places along with emphasis.
28.09: Approval of Public and Private Day and Residential Special Education School Programs
(1) Approval from the Department. The Department may grant approval to public and private day and residential schools providing special education services (special education schools) in Massachusetts in order to ensure that a continuum of special education programs is available to Massachusetts students with disabilities. Approval shall be granted by the Department in accordance with the provisions of 603 CMR 28.09. Upon receipt of approval special education schools are eligible to enroll publicly funded Massachusetts eligible students. Approval does not relieve special education schools of their obligation to comply with other applicable state or federal statutory or regulatory requirements or requirements set forth in their contracts with referral sources.
(a) Limited approval for out-of-state programs. The Department may grant approval to public and private day and residential schools providing special education services (special education schools) in states other than Massachusetts in the following circumstances.
1. An out-of-state program, in cooperation with a Massachusetts school district, seeks approvaI from the Department. The following documentation is required.
(i) Written verification by the Massachusetts school district of its intent to place an eligible Massachusetts student in the out-of-state program.
(ii) Documentation from the program that the host state has approved the program to provide services to students with disabilities. If the host state does not have an approval process, then the program must provide documentation of reputable accreditation.
(iii) Documentation of tuition rate approved by the host state. If the host state does not approve or otherwise regulate tuition rates, then the program shall provide documentation meeting the requirements of the Massachusetts agency responsible for setting rates for special education schools and showing that the proposed rate is the lowest rate charged to any enrolled student for similar services.
Upon receipt of required documentation, the Department may grant approval for a period of time not to exceed three years from the date of application. The Department may withhold such approval if it deems that circumstances warrant such action. In such case, the Department will notify the Massachusetts school district and the out-of-state program of its actions and the reason for such actions.
Once approved by the Department, out-of-state programs may accept Massachusetts students without additional documentation during the three-year period of approval. It is the responsibility of the out-of-state program, in cooperation with a Massachusetts school district, to reinitiate the three-year approval status.
(b) Approval for Massachusetts special education schools. Approval for schools operating in Massachusetts includes meeting all of the requirements of 603 CMR 28.09 and 603 CMR 18.00. The Department reserves the right to withhold or deny approval if, in its discretion, circumstances warrant such action.
(2) Eligibility. Any individual, not-for-profit corporation or agency, or proprietary corporation or public educational collaborative or school district may file an application to establish and/or operate a special education school in Massachusetts to serve eligible students with disabilities. The Department shall require justification of the need for such program and may establish standards for approval eligibility, including but not limited to, standards for minimum or maximum size of such program.
(a) Residential programs shall demonstrate initiation of a request for a license with the state agency responsible for licensing programs providing residential childcare. Such state agency shall be responsible for licensing the residential non-educational component of the program. ASR in violation
The Department of Education shall not grant final approval of the educational component of the residential school until all licensing activity for the residential component has been completed and a license has been awarded.
The educational component of a residential program must reflect the 24-hour nature of the service and indicate how residential services and educational services will be fully coordinated.
(b) The Department shall develop approval standards that shall specify the types of information, policies, procedures, and assurances to be included in any application for approval. The application shall include, but not be limited to:
A demonstration of the need for such a program;
The population to be served. Such population shall, at a minimum, consist of a majority of students who have been determined eligible for special education services. Again, answers the "special needs question," but childcaring license is already required by above rule
The anticipated special education and related services that the program will provide;
The legal and financial stability of the program;
The safety and appropriateness of the physical plant for the student population that the school will serve;
Documentation of qualified staff; and Must meet all requirements for special education under Mass law - ASR does not. not a single spec ed teacher on the premises
Procedures detailing how the school will provide education services for the identified population of students.
(c) For public special education school programs, the public school or educational collaborative must demonstrate that the program is developed for programmatic reasons and not because of lack of space at an in-district location.
(3) Department review and approval. The Department shall review for approval each application submitted and shall consult with other state agencies as necessary. The Department may, at its discretion, schedule site visits, interviews, or other inspection of the proposed program. State must be granted ability to conduct "pop inspections" The Department may deny approval; grant temporary, provisional, or full approval; or grant probationary approval. The Department shall provide the applicant with a written notice of its actions and the reasons for such actions.
(a) Temporary approval/program pricing. The Department, upon granting temporary approval to private special education schools, shall forward such approval, together with a description of approved program elements for the educational component of the program, and applicable pricing elements for the residential component of the program, if any, to the state agency responsible for program pricing.
(b) Provisional approval. If provisional approval is granted, the Department shall indicate the specific conditions that shall be met and shall establish a time limit not to exceed six months within which the program shall meet those conditions. In no case shall approval be given unless the applicant can demonstrate to the satisfaction of the Department that the health and safety of the students is protected and the school is able to carry out the provisions of each student's IEP.
(4) Probationary approval. The Department may place the program on probationary status if it becomes aware of conditions at the school that, in the Department's judgment, compromise the program's ability to provide a safe, healthy and appropriate educational environment. In such circumstances, the Department shall provide written notice of the probationary status, the circumstances that caused the Department to take such action, and the actions necessary to correct the problem.
(a) Health and safety issues. When, in the Department's judgment, conditions at the school threaten the health or safety of the students in the program, acceptance of any additional eligible students (intake) may be prohibited and the Department shall establish a time not to exceed 14 days within which the program shall correct the problem.
(b) Educational issues. When, in the Department's judgment, conditions at the school compromise the program's ability to provide an appropriate education but do not threaten the health and safety of the students, the Department shall establish a time limit up to 90 days during which the program shall correct the problem. The Department shall determine if it is necessary to close intake during this period. The Department shall not close intake for more than 60 days in any 12-month period without a full review of the approval status of the school.
(c) Notification requirements. Within two school days of receipt of notice from the Department placing the program's approval on probation, the program shall provide notification to the parents of all enrolled Massachusetts students, all Massachusetts school districts with enrolled students, and officials of Massachusetts human service agencies or agencies of other states with responsibility for any students at the school. Notification shall state that the school has been assigned probationary status; that intake is closed, if applicable, and the reasons for such status.
(d) Completed corrective action. At the end of the time period for corrective action or when the issue giving rise to probationary status is resolved, whichever is sooner, the Department may reinstate the approval status of the program, change the approval status to provisional, or withdraw approval. The Department shall provide written notification of its action to the special education school.
(e) Request for reconsideration. Within one month of receipt of a written request for reconsideration of any Department action in relation to probationary status, the Department shall consider the request and make formal written response. The Department may, at its discretion, hold a hearing on the facts, make site visits, or issue an alternative remedy.
(5) Disclosure of information.
(a) An approved special education school shall make available to the Department, on request, information on all aspects of the school's program(s), the certification or credentials of its staff, and the individual records of enrolled Massachusetts students. This is what ASR refused to give EEC and "escorted the representative off the premises"
(b) The approved special education school shall also maintain on site and provide, on request, documentation of a safety inspection of all buildings by the Department of Public Safety or the local building inspector, an annual fire safety inspection from the local fire department, and a lead paint inspection, if applicable. More frequent inspections may be required at the discretion of the Department.
(c) Prior to any substantial change in program or physical plant, the special education school shall give written notification of intent to change to the Department. i.e. "change to a more clinical model" Notice shall be given with sufficient time to allow the Department to assess the need for the proposed change and the effects of such change on the educational program. The Department shall provide response to the approved program within thirty days if such change may affect the approval status of the program.
(6) Public information and postings. Each approved special education school shall maintain on site and make available for public review the following:
(a) Program information including a statement of purpose, a general description of the educational program, an organizational chart, and tuition information;
(b) Documentation of the current approval and or licensing status;
(c) Documents granting authority to operate the school, including documents that fully identify ownership, and, as applicable, the names of officers, boards, charters, partnership agreements, articles of organization, and by-laws;
(d) All required policies and procedures; and
(e) First aid, medical, and emergency procedures. The special education school shall conspicuously post first aid and emergency procedures, including emergency telephone numbers and location of nearest telephones within each building.
(7) Educational staffing requirements. An approved special education school program shall meet the requirements of 603 CMR 18.00 related to staffing, staff training, and personnel policies and shall demonstrate that its organizational structure provides for the effective and efficient operation of the school, supervision of school staff, and supervision of students. The school staff shall at all times provide appropriate supervision of students while they are engaged in any school related activity on or off school grounds.
(a) At least one staff member shall be designated as the educational administrator for the program. The educational administrator shall either possess licensure as a special education administrator or as a special educator and shall have a minimum of a master's degree in special education or a related field; and shall have a minimum of one year of administrative experience. Such person shall be assigned to supervise the provision of special education services in the school and ensure that the services specified in each student's IEP are delivered. The educational administrator shall be relicensed pursuant to the requirements of 603 CMR 44.00 and shall be required to obtain supervisor approval of his/her Professional Development Plan pursuant to 603 CMR 44.04.
(b) Teaching staff shall have teaching licensure appropriate to meet the needs of the population served and which is provided pursuant to the licensure requirements under 603 CMR 7.00. Teaching staff shall be relicensed pursuant to the requirements of 603 CMR 44.00. For the purposes of relicensure, teaching staff shall be subject to the same requirements as teachers in Massachusetts public schools and shall be required to obtain supervisor approval of Professional Development Plans pursuant to 603 CMR 44.04. At least half of the teaching staff shall be licensed in special education areas appropriate to the population served at the school; other teaching staff may be licensed in other educational areas, in order to provide for content expertise in the general curriculum.
(c) The Department may require a higher proportion of licensed special educators if, in the opinion of the Department, the population requires more specialized services. To the extent that teaching staff is providing special education services, such services shall be provided, designed, or supervised by a special educator.
(d) Staff providing or supervising the provision of related services shall be appropriately certified or licensed in their professional areas. Require LICENSED COUNSELORS
(e) Instructional groupings and student/teacher ratios shall not exceed the class size standards set forth at 603 CMR 28.06(6) and (7). The Department may impose additional limits, if, in the opinion of the Department, the population requires more specialized services.
(f) The special education school shall have a written plan for staff orientation and training that is consistent with the needs of the student population and provides, on average, at least two hours per month of relevant training for all staff including non-professional staff. Initial staff orientation shall include provision for training in emergency procedures, behavior management procedures, and requirements related to student protections as provided in 603 CMR 28.09(12). The special education school shall maintain written documentation of training provided and staff attendance at training as well as documentation of training received outside of the school. Upon request, such documentation shall be readily available for review by the Department.
(8) Educational facilities and materials. Approved special education schools shall provide the facilities, textbooks, equipment, technology, materials, and supplies needed to provide the special education and related services specified on the IEPs of enrolled students. If specialized materials or equipment needed solely for an individual student are necessary, the special education school may enter into an agreement for the provision of such materials or equipment by the school district enrolling the student. Approved schools shall additionally meet all facility requirements of 603 CMR 18.00.
(9) Educational program requirements.
(a) All approved special education schools shall meet or exceed the student learning time requirements for public school students set forth at 603 CMR 27.00 and shall ensure that such requirements are met for individual students unless the student's IEP requires otherwise. In addition to meeting the student learning time requirements, all ten month programs must run a minimum of 180 school days; 11 month programs a minimum of 198 school days and 12 month programs a minimum of 216 school days exclusive of weekends, holidays, and vacations.
(b) Each approved special education school shall ensure that all teaching staff have an understanding and knowledge of the general curriculum expectations and learning standards of the Massachusetts Curriculum Frameworks and that such knowledge is incorporated into the educational programs of the special education school.
(c) All approved special education schools shall ensure that there are flexible procedures and mechanisms that maximize opportunities for enrolled students to gain the capacity to return to a less restrictive educational program. have to let the inmates out![/i] Such mechanisms may include, but are not limited to, a capacity for part-time attendance at a neighborhood public school or other community program or a period of transition from one program option to a less restrictive program option.
(d) All approved special education schools shall ensure that there are written procedures outlining how such schools will ensure that enrolled students also participate in state assessment programs in accordance with the assessment participation information provided on the student's IEP. Such procedures shall include how the approved school will provide for accommodations or alternate assessments when required.
(10) Student Records. Approved special education schools shall keep current and complete files for each publicly funded enrolled student and shall manage such files consistent with 603 CMR 23.00: Student Records and M.G.L. c. 71, § 34H.
(11) Policies and procedures. In addition to the written procedures required for residential schools by the state agency responsible for licensing residential programs providing childcare, and written procedures required by 603 CMR 18.00, all approved special education schools shall maintain on site a policies and procedures manual, and shall provide written notice to parents of enrolled students that copies of such policies or procedures are available on request. Policies and procedures shall additionally include the procedures required in 603 CMR 28.09(9) and emergency procedures, admissions procedures, behavior management procedures, procedures regarding suspension or termination of the student's placement, and orientation procedures for parents and students as required under 603 CMR 18.00 and the following:
(a) Personnel policies, including procedures for hiring, discipline, supervision, evaluation, handling complaints, and dismissal of staff. Procedures on hiring shall include a description of the steps the school will take to obtain, consider, and act upon information related to convictions for criminal offenses for any prospective staff members whose responsibilities bring them into direct contact with students in the school.
(b) If applicable, transportation procedures that ensure that vehicles are safe, insured, and operated by qualified and trained individuals, and that students are transported in a safe manner that is responsive to individual student's needs and provisions of their IEPs.
(12) Student Protections. Students shall be entitled to protections and standards in accordance with 603 CMR 18.00. In addition approved special education schools shall observe the following requirements:
(a) Serious Incidents - Immediate Notification and Reporting. In the event of serious injury or death of a student, criminal activity on the part of a student or staff member, or other serious incident affecting the well-being of any student, the approved special education school shall immediately notify, by telephone and by letter, the parents, the sending school district(s), any state agency involved in student care or program placement, and the Department of Education.
(b) Emergency termination of enrollment. The special education school shall not terminate the enrollment of any student, even in emergency circumstances, until the enrolling public school district is informed and assumes responsibility for the student. At the request of the public school district, the special education school shall delay termination of the student for up to two calendar weeks to allow the public school district the opportunity to convene an emergency Team meeting or to conduct other appropriate planning discussions prior to the student's termination from the special education school program. With the mutual agreement of the approved special education school and the public school district, termination of enrollment may be delayed for longer than two calendar weeks.
My god, the list of violations is staggering. Does anyone care to draft a formal letter to DOE outlining these violations as they relate to these specific rules? If I had time (to write a fucking novel!) I'd do it myself, but anyone who can draft it with careful attention to detail would be appreciated!
Any takers? I'll be happy to assist with editing and will submit the complaint to DOE...
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This is why I cautioned you to move slowly and build on a solid foundation. The regulations that are listed do not apply to ASR. They are not a Chapter 766 approved school. They are classified as Special Education by the state but they don’t fir the profile of Chapter 766 in many ways, one is that the majority of kids are not “special needs” children as defined by the state (I pointed this out earlier).
If parents reading here are interested just call the number at the bottom of this post and ask for Paul Renistoni (sp?)
Here is a list of Chapter 766 Approved Schools
Approved school
http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/speds.asp (http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/speds.asp)
http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/home.asp?mode=o&ot=2 (http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/home.asp?mode=o&ot=2)
Approved Private Special Educational Schools
These schools, established as, Massachusetts Chapter 766 Approved In-State Schools and Programs that Serve Publicly Funded Special Education Students, are private institutions serving students with disabilities when it has been determined that their needs cannot be accommodated locally.
The right for some public school students with disabilities to attend these schools was established by Chapter 766 of the Acts of 1972. The laws governing placement and tuition in these programs are now encompassed in Chapter 71B of the Massachusetts General Laws.
Approved Special Educational Schools, are monitored by the Department of Education's Program Quality Assurance Services Unit (781) 338-3700.
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They are classified as Special Education by the state but they don’t fir the profile of Chapter 766 in many ways, one is that the majority of kids are not “special needs” children as defined by the state (I pointed this out earlier).
No you didn't. You posted half of the definition for what qualifies as "special needs" and tried to claim the kids had to pass some test in order to be classified as such. You ignored the entire first half of the definition which stated that any kid with an emotional or behavioral issue that impedes on their education. We already know ASR takes such kids which is why they lobbied so hard nine years ago for the 30% rule.
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This is why I cautioned you to move slowly and build on a solid foundation. The regulations that are listed do not apply to ASR. They are not a Chapter 766 approved school. They are classified as Special Education by the state but they don’t fir the profile of Chapter 766 in many ways, one is that the majority of kids are not “special needs” children as defined by the state (I pointed this out earlier).
If parents reading here are interested just call the number at the bottom of this post and ask for Paul Renistoni (sp?)
Here is a list of Chapter 766 Approved Schools
Approved school
http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/speds.asp (http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/speds.asp)
http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/home.asp?mode=o&ot=2 (http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/home.asp?mode=o&ot=2)
Approved Private Special Educational Schools
These schools, established as, Massachusetts Chapter 766 Approved In-State Schools and Programs that Serve Publicly Funded Special Education Students, are private institutions serving students with disabilities when it has been determined that their needs cannot be accommodated locally.
The right for some public school students with disabilities to attend these schools was established by Chapter 766 of the Acts of 1972. The laws governing placement and tuition in these programs are now encompassed in Chapter 71B of the Massachusetts General Laws.
Approved Special Educational Schools, are monitored by the Department of Education's Program Quality Assurance Services Unit (781) 338-3700.
It's appears to be a mistake on the list. Both lists, for special education schools AND private schools omit ASR. So, are you willing to say ASR is not recognized by Massachusetts as any sort of school based on its absence from the private school list? If so, they are definitely a childcare facility (which it is clear they are anyway, but that's a different story...).
However, if you go to this page http://http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/home.asp?mode=ot&view=&mcasyear=2006&ot=2&o=2588 and select "Special Education School" in the left dropdown menu you can then select "Academy at Swift River" from the right dropdown menu - it's the first one on the list.
So, it's clear that ASR one, takes public funds for special needs kids, two, is classified as a Special Education School by the state and three, is grossly in violation of DOE policies and education law. We've established this and agree upon it. A quick call to the Department of Education's Program Quality Assurance Services Unit at (781) 338-3700 verifies that they are a Special Education School. That's settled.
Now the questions are surrounding the facts that they don't meet the requirements laid out by DOE, including, but not limited to being licensed as a residential childcare facility, employing licensed teachers at least half of which must be licensed as special ed, having no special ed program director and having no licensed counselors.
The complaint will be lodged with DOE and the chips will fall where they may...
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Anote pn public funding for a private school in Massachusetts:
The only possible scenario under which the state can provide funds to pay for a private school is for special education for a disability. The private school is required by law to meet the special education standards of the state. There is no wiggle room here.
Therefore, ASR, by virtue of accepting state funds for a child's education, must meet state requirements for special education under 603 CMR 28.00: Special Education.
The criteria for a student's "disability" that applies to these special education kids is under 603 CMR 28.02 (definitions of conditions explicitly claimed to be treated by ASR on their website are bolded):
(7) Disability shall mean one or more of the following impairments:
(a) Autism - A developmental disability significantly affecting verbal and nonverbal communication and social interaction. The term shall have the meaning given it in federal law at 34 CFR §300.8(c)(1).
(b) Developmental Delay - The learning capacity of a young child (3-9 years old) is significantly limited, impaired, or delayed and is exhibited by difficulties in one or more of the following areas: receptive and/or expressive language; cognitive abilities; physical functioning; social, emotional, or adaptive functioning; and/or self-help skills.
(c) Intellectual Impairment - The permanent capacity for performing cognitive tasks, functions, or problem solving is significantly limited or impaired and is exhibited by more than one of the following: a slower rate of learning; disorganized patterns of learning; difficulty with adaptive behavior; and/or difficulty understanding abstract concepts. Such term shall include students with mental retardation.
(d) Sensory Impairment - The term shall include the following:
Hearing Impairment or Deaf - The capacity to hear, with amplification, is limited, impaired, or absent and results in one or more of the following: reduced performance in hearing acuity tasks; difficulty with oral communication; and/or difficulty in understanding auditorally-presented information in the education environment. The term includes students who are deaf and students who are hard-of-hearing.
Vision Impairment or Blind - The capacity to see, after correction, is limited, impaired, or absent and results in one or more of the following: reduced performance in visual acuity tasks; difficulty with written communication; and/or difficulty with understanding information presented visually in the education environment. The term includes students who are blind and students with limited vision.
Deafblind - Concomitant hearing and visual impairments, the combination of which causes severe communication and other developmental and educational needs.
(e) Neurological Impairment - The capacity of the nervous system is limited or impaired with difficulties exhibited in one or more of the following areas: the use of memory, the control and use of cognitive functioning, sensory and motor skills, speech, language, organizational skills, information processing, affect, social skills, or basic life functions. The term includes students who have received a traumatic brain injury.
(f) Emotional Impairment - As defined under federal law at 34 CFR §300.8(c)(4), the student exhibits one or more of the following characteristics over a long period of time and to a marked degree that adversely affects educational performance: an inability to learn that cannot be explained by intellectual, sensory, or health factors; an inability to build or maintain satisfactory interpersonal relationships with peers and teachers; inappropriate types of behavior or feelings under normal circumstances; a general pervasive mood of unhappiness or depression; or a tendency to develop physical symptoms or fears associated with personal or school problems. The determination of disability shall not be made solely because the student's behavior violates the school's discipline code, because the student is involved with a state court or social service agency, or because the student is socially maladjusted, unless the Team determines that the student has a serious emotional disturbance.
(g) Communication Impairment - The capacity to use expressive and/or receptive language is significantly limited, impaired, or delayed and is exhibited by difficulties in one or more of the following areas: speech, such as articulation and/or voice; conveying, understanding, or using spoken, written, or symbolic language. The term may include a student with impaired articulation, stuttering, language impairment, or voice impairment if such impairment adversely affects the student's educational performance.
(h) Physical Impairment - The physical capacity to move, coordinate actions, or perform physical activities is significantly limited, impaired, or delayed and is exhibited by difficulties in one or more of the following areas: physical and motor tasks; independent movement; performing basic life functions. The term shall include severe orthopedic impairments or impairments caused by congenital anomaly, cerebral palsy, amputations, and fractures, if such impairment adversely affects a student's educational performance.
(i) Health Impairment - A chronic or acute health problem such that the physiological capacity to function is significantly limited or impaired and results in one or more of the following: limited strength, vitality, or alertness including a heightened alertness to environmental stimuli resulting in limited alertness with respect to the educational environment. The term shall include health impairments due to asthma, attention deficit disorder or attention deficit with hyperactivity disorder, diabetes, epilepsy, a heart condition, hemophilia, lead poisoning, leukemia, nephritis, rheumatic fever, and sickle cell anemia, if such health impairment adversely affects a student's educational performance.
(j) Specific Learning Disability - The term means a disorder in one or more of the basic psychological processes involved in understanding or in using language, spoken or written, that may manifest itself in an imperfect ability to listen, think speak, read, write, spell, or to do mathematical calculations.
So, as is clearly illustrated, by the state's definition ASR takes "disabled" children, clearly claims to have the expertise to treat and educate disabled children, accepts children from public school systems and takes compensation from the state for them.
This means they must meet all of the requirements under the law governing special education, of which they meet almost none, most especially those surrounding qualified, licensed teachers, of which they have exactly none.
Due to this fact, they are in violation of educational law.
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It's appears to be a mistake on the list. Both lists, for special education schools AND private schools omit ASR. So, are you willing to say ASR is not recognized by Massachusetts as any sort of school based on its absence from the private school list? If so, they are definitely a childcare facility (which it is clear they are anyway, but that's a different story...).
No, not really stating that. As I reviewed the schools listed under special education schools I noticed the following:
I did what you suggested which was :
However, if you go to this page http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/home.asp?m ... t=2&o=2588 (http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/home.asp?mode=ot&view=&mcasyear=2006&ot=2&o=2588) and select "Special Education School" in the left dropdown menu you can then select "Academy at Swift River" from the right dropdown menu - it's the first one on the list.
Now try going to the next school ,Amego School (or choose some schools at random) and you will notice at the bottom of the page “Special Education Approved Program: Has Program. Most schools have this “Approved status” which means they are 766 approved. ASR does not have this, I don’t think this is a mistake. ASR is clearly not set up to take “Special needs” children as defined here and by the state of Massachusetts and do not have to abide by the regulations that you stated.
I believe ASR is classified as a Private Boarding school without special needs. If a complaint is filed it will force the issue and we will find out how they are classified. Probably the best way to resolve this difference in perspective.
I find this interesting, though, it seems they don’t have a category for TBS’s in Massachusetts and are sort of classified as a hybrid between special needs and boarding school. I think a big step will be to determine which rules they need to adhere to. I believe the ones being posted here do not apply but a complaint will clear up the matter.
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Well, ASR is not listed as a "private school" in Massachusetts at all. It's only listed as a Special Education School, so that's obviously how the state classifies it based on the services it claims to offer.
Now, the difficulty is that their special education program is not currently approved by the state. I think this is the rub here. It seems those other schools have been approved by the state and ASR is just classified as a Special Education School (not a private boarding school).
What this signals to me is that, as is the usual pattern for those institiutions looking to get on a state list of schools, but intentionally not to meet requirements thereof (this is a strong pattern in the TBS industry), ASR has applied for status, but has not demonstrated that they meet special education requirements, which they clearly haven't and therefore aren't on the "approved" list. If they didn't get on the "schools list" in one form or another, they'd be forced under the regulations of "residential childcare facility" or "residential treatment center".
This is how "TBS's" have historically jobbed the system.
This makes the fact that they have received public funds for disabled students all the more troubling, as they demonstrably can't and don't meet special education requirements.
Either way, it's clear that a complaint is in order to force the state to examine these discrepencies and deficiencies.
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It looks like ASR is the only TBS trying to job the system as a "Special Education School".
http://www.mytroubledteen.com/boarding- ... setts.html (http://www.mytroubledteen.com/boarding-schools/massachusetts.html)
None of these "troubled teen" schools are listed under the special education section at DOE (this is a catch-all type of listing service, so some of the ones on the list don't claim to be TBS's and do have legitimate, approved spec ed programs, but made it onto the "mytroubledteen" listing anyway).
Of note, however, even the one of the most messed up "schools" with one of the most sordid histories amongst TBS's, The DeSisto School, is listed as a private school, but ASR is not.
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Now, the difficulty is that their special education program is not currently approved by the state. I think this is the rub here. It seems those other schools have been approved by the state and ASR is just classified as a Special Education School (not a private boarding school).
Agreed, I don’t think they have a classification for TBS so they had to choose a place to put them, so they list them as a specialty school.
Either way, it's clear that a complaint is in order to force the state to examine these discrepencies and deficiencies.
This is always the best way to bring the issue to the forefront and get resolution. There is always an exception to the rules and a ruling is made based on request.
We had a similar problem with smoking. You couldn’t allow smoking in restaurants but you could in private clubs, so the definition of “private club” (country club, Elks club, etc.) was put under a microscope and forced some new definition and compliances. So moving forward and giving this the visibility it deserves is a good thing. It may force the state to break out a new category and set of rules specifically for TBS’s.
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None of these "troubled teen" schools are listed under the special education section at DOE (this is a catch-all type of listing service, so some of the ones on the list don't claim to be TBS's and do have legitimate, approved spec ed programs, but made it onto the "mytroubledteen" listing anyway).
Of note, however, even the one of the most messed up "schools" with one of the most sordid histories amongst TBS's, The DeSisto School, is listed as a private school, but ASR is not.
Good point, guest, looks like ASR is working with the state to get better defined and is taking the first step for new classification.
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Actually they're trying to avoid any sort of category which forces regulation on them.
Again do the kids they take meet the definition given by the state for special needs?
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It looks like, by documentation, etc, that ASR is really not a school at all. They're the sole and only school, including at least one other self-described TBS - DeSisto - that is either listed nowhere or isn't listed as state approved in some capacity.
They remain unaccredited and don't even appear on the Coordinated Review Program documentation from Mohawk Regional School District, which is often held out by ASR supporters as "approving the academic program" of ASR. http://http://www.doe.mass.edu/pqa/review/cpr/reports/2007/0717.pdf
Either that's a blatant lie or Mohawk has dropped them as of 2007.
So, it doesn't look as if the state needed to place them in some category because "TBS" is not a category (as DeSisto qualifies as a private school under Mass law). It looks like ASR represented to the state that they were a Special Education School but never followed up to be approved, as they fall woefully short of the qualifications. Again, this is the typical scam run on states by "TBS's" (see HLA or Ivy Ridge, both eventually forced to license as RCF/RTC).
It appears they do not qualifiy as a "private school" either, or they would be listed as such, like DeSisto, a notorious shit-pit TBS which somehow meets state qualifications that ASR apparently does not.
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None of these "troubled teen" schools are listed under the special education section at DOE (this is a catch-all type of listing service, so some of the ones on the list don't claim to be TBS's and do have legitimate, approved spec ed programs, but made it onto the "mytroubledteen" listing anyway).
Of note, however, even the one of the most messed up "schools" with one of the most sordid histories amongst TBS's, The DeSisto School, is listed as a private school, but ASR is not.
Good point, guest, looks like ASR is working with the state to get better defined and is taking the first step for new classification.
There's absolutely no evidence to support that claim, Who. None.
No, it looks like, as pointed out by the other guest above, that they simply don't meet state requirements in any category at all and are trying to avoid the regulations and laws of both schools and RCF/RTC.
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None of these "troubled teen" schools are listed under the special education section at DOE (this is a catch-all type of listing service, so some of the ones on the list don't claim to be TBS's and do have legitimate, approved spec ed programs, but made it onto the "mytroubledteen" listing anyway).
Of note, however, even the one of the most messed up "schools" with one of the most sordid histories amongst TBS's, The DeSisto School, is listed as a private school, but ASR is not.
Good point, guest, looks like ASR is working with the state to get better defined and is taking the first step for new classification.
There's absolutely no evidence to support that claim, Who. None.
No, it looks like, as pointed out by the other guest above, that they simply don't meet state requirements in any category at all and are trying to avoid the regulations and laws of both schools and RCF/RTC.
No, it looks like, as pointed out by the other guest above, that they simply don't meet state requirements in any category at all and are trying to avoid the regulations and laws of both schools and RCF/RTC.
There is no hard evidence either way. If there was a category for TBS then we wouldn’t be having this debate. But the state has definitions for Special needs school and private schools etc. and ASR doesn’t fit cleanly into any one category. It is a hybrid and that is why they don’t come under any one jurisdiction. One person can speculate “Oh, they are avoiding being a Private school”,,,,,,, another “No they are avoiding being a special ed school”…. Another says “They are avoiding being a RTC”….but the truth is the state doesn’t have a clear definition for Therapeutic boarding schools nor a set of guidelines for them to follow, nor an oversight committee.
We cant sit here and pull up a list of regulations for Special ed schools when they don’t fit the whole definition and they aren’t just a private boarding school because they offer therapy.
The best we can do as parents and students is to say “Hey, lets define Therapeutic boarding schools and write up regulations and licenses that they can cleanly follow”. But until that happens the state will define it “As we go”, until there becomes a real apparent reason (like an increase in TBS population and schools, law suit) to add another category it will evolve slowly and ASR will stay in limbo as a specialty school adhering to some of the rules for Special ed and some of the rules for private schools and some of the rules for Mental health facilities, but will not be required to adhere to all of them.
No matter how many categories or how hard you try to cover every possible scenario when enacting the law there is always an exception, always will be.
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If there was a category for TBS then we wouldn’t be having this debate.
If ASR isnt a TBS then why do they claim to be one?
But the state has definitions for Special needs school and private schools etc. and ASR doesn’t fit cleanly into any one category. It is a hybrid and that is why they don’t come under any one jurisdiction.
This is the exact same song and dance HLA tried to pull. It didnt work out for them either.
One person can speculate “Oh, they are avoiding being a Private school”,,,,,,, another “No they are avoiding being a special ed school”…. Another says “They are avoiding being a RTC”….but the truth is the state doesn’t have a clear definition for Therapeutic boarding schools nor a set of guidelines for them to follow, nor an oversight committee.
We cant sit here and pull up a list of regulations for Special ed schools when they don’t fit the whole definition and they aren’t just a private boarding school because they offer therapy.
Then what are they?
No matter how many categories or how hard you try to cover every possible scenario when enacting the law there is always an exception, always will be.
Just as there will always be companies trying to avoid regulation as a means of abusing kids.
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If ASR isnt a TBS then why do they claim to be one?
You should go to sleep....no one is saying that here
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If ASR isnt a TBS then why do they claim to be one?
You should go to sleep....no one is saying that here
What difference does it make whether or not it's mentioned? The fact of the matter is ASR does claim to be a TBS.
So the question stands. If they arent a TBS why do they claim to be one?
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If ASR isnt a TBS then why do they claim to be one?
You should go to sleep....no one is saying that here
What difference does it make whether or not it's mentioned? The fact of the matter is ASR does claim to be a TBS.
So the question stands. If they arent a TBS why do they claim to be one?
Of course they claim to be a TBS, because they are a TBS....you are not making much sense.
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You were the one who tried to claim earlier they weren't. Perhaps you could try keeping closer tabs on your own comments.
So with that settled the next question is whether or not they accept kids with special needs.
Again by their own addmission the answer is yes.
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TheWho said:
"There is no hard evidence either way. If there was a category for TBS then we wouldn’t be having this debate. But the state has definitions for Special needs school and private schools etc. and ASR doesn’t fit cleanly into any one category. It is a hybrid and that is why they don’t come under any one jurisdiction. One person can speculate “Oh, they are avoiding being a Private school”,,,,,,, another “No they are avoiding being a special ed school”…. Another says “They are avoiding being a RTC”….but the truth is the state doesn’t have a clear definition for Therapeutic boarding schools nor a set of guidelines for them to follow, nor an oversight committee.
We cant sit here and pull up a list of regulations for Special ed schools when they don’t fit the whole definition and they aren’t just a private boarding school because they offer therapy. "
To say this is to ignore history. This isn't happening in a vacuum. ASR is following its predecessors' carefully laid path of avoiding regulation. You can say "no hard evidence" but the lack of evidence in dozens of other cases prior has been intentional and willful on the part of the "TBS".
WWASPS and HLA (along with several other NATSAP facilities) did it exactly the same way and got away with it for over a decade. It takes time to get regulators to look into - civil servants don't like to rock the boat or do the work. But once they do get the investigation started, the results have been clear - 100% of the TBS's were required to register and license as RTC/RCF and were denied "school" status.
ASR is not new, not innovative. It's just another "TBS" built on the same foundations as all the others that were forced into regulation.
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TheWho said:
"There is no hard evidence either way. If there was a category for TBS then we wouldn’t be having this debate. But the state has definitions for Special needs school and private schools etc. and ASR doesn’t fit cleanly into any one category. It is a hybrid and that is why they don’t come under any one jurisdiction. One person can speculate “Oh, they are avoiding being a Private school”,,,,,,, another “No they are avoiding being a special ed school”…. Another says “They are avoiding being a RTC”….but the truth is the state doesn’t have a clear definition for Therapeutic boarding schools nor a set of guidelines for them to follow, nor an oversight committee.
We cant sit here and pull up a list of regulations for Special ed schools when they don’t fit the whole definition and they aren’t just a private boarding school because they offer therapy. "
To say this is to ignore history. This isn't happening in a vacuum. ASR is following its predecessors' carefully laid path of avoiding regulation. You can say "no hard evidence" but the lack of evidence in dozens of other cases prior has been intentional and willful on the part of the "TBS".
WWASPS and HLA (along with several other NATSAP facilities) did it exactly the same way and got away with it for over a decade. It takes time to get regulators to look into - civil servants don't like to rock the boat or do the work. But once they do get the investigation started, the results have been clear - 100% of the TBS's were required to register and license as RTC/RCF and were denied "school" status.
ASR is not new, not innovative. It's just another "TBS" built on the same foundations as all the others that were forced into regulation.
So what you are saying is a successful business is going to knowingly model themselves after other schools which ended up getting sued and had regulation forced on them and ended up being denied school status… Hmmmm … not too sure I would align myself with this thinking.
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ASR started as an HLA clone. And modeling themselves after other "TBS's" is exactly what they've done. Same language/terminology, same philosophy/methodology and even many of the same staff.
ASR is built on the same foundations as all of the others, try as you might to distinguish it. Bottom line is they are unqualified to teach, provide spec ed or to provide therapy. No getting around the fact that they fail to meet even the minimum standards for a private school, a Special Ed School or and RCF/RTC.
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That's because you're a moron. Look at the facts dummy; how is what ASR is doing now any different then any of the other TBS's who have had regulation forced upon them?
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That's because you're a moron. Look at the facts dummy
More personal attacks…must be short on facts again.
And like I said, you can believe people here on fornits or you can call the school or Department of Education's Program Quality Assurance Services Unit (781) 338-3700
I wouldn’t decide to place or not place a child solely based on what you hear at fornits or a web site… get the facts parents
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I didn't write that. I wrote this below. You're getting your posters confused.
ASR started as an HLA clone. And modeling themselves after other "TBS's" is exactly what they've done. Same language/terminology, same philosophy/methodology and even many of the same staff.
ASR is built on the same foundations as all of the others, try as you might to distinguish it. Bottom line is they are unqualified to teach, provide spec ed or to provide therapy. No getting around the fact that they fail to meet even the minimum standards for a private school, a Special Ed School or and RCF/RTC.
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That's because you're a moron. Look at the facts dummy
More personal attacks…must be short on facts again.
And like I said, you can believe people here on fornits or you can call the school or Department of Education's Program Quality Assurance Services Unit (781) 338-3700
I wouldn’t decide to place or not place a child solely based on what you hear at fornits or a web site… get the facts parents
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Well truth be told you are a moron, but that's neither here nor there. The poster who you're so upset about did bring up a valid point.
How is what ASR is now doing any different then what HLA or any of the other numerous programs who have had licensure forced upon them tried to do?
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I didn't write that. I wrote this below. You're getting your posters confused.
ASR started as an HLA clone. And modeling themselves after other "TBS's" is exactly what they've done. Same language/terminology, same philosophy/methodology and even many of the same staff.
ASR is built on the same foundations as all of the others, try as you might to distinguish it. Bottom line is they are unqualified to teach, provide spec ed or to provide therapy. No getting around the fact that they fail to meet even the minimum standards for a private school, a Special Ed School or and RCF/RTC.
Sorry, writing too quickly
meant to say:
You can believe people here on fornits or you can call the school or Department of Education's Program Quality Assurance Services Unit (781) 338-3700
I wouldn’t decide to place or not place a child solely based on what you hear at fornits or a web site… get the facts
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And again what do you believe those facts to be?
Is ASR a Special needs school?
Are they a traditional boarding school?
Are they both and thus above all classifications?
Why did they claim exemption under the 30% rule if they arent a special needs school?
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True. I verified these facts with EEC:
-no special ed teachers or administrators - none
-no licensed teachers
And this fact with DMH:
-no licensed counselors
That's enough for me to avoid this facility. They really have no professionals working there and don't meet minimum requirements for either a school or a residential childcare facility.
This fact alone leads me to a "no-go" decision and there's no need to look further - ASR is incapable of meeting the needs of kids.
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True. I verified these facts with EEC:
-no special ed teachers or administrators - none
-no licensed teachers
And this fact with DMH:
-no licensed counselors
That's enough for me to avoid this facility. They really have no professionals working there and don't meet minimum requirements for either a school or a residential childcare facility.
This fact alone leads me to a "no-go" decision and there's no need to look further - ASR is incapable of meeting the needs of kids.
So, you dont have a problem if the parents call and check for themselves would you?
Call the school directly (tell them what you heard on fornits) and /or call:
Department of Education's Program Quality Assurance Services Unit (781) 338-3700
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What is it you think theyre going to say. Or are you afraid to take a firm position?
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No, of course not. They should hear directly from the source that ASR has no licensed teachers, no special ed teachers and no special ed administrator.
These are important facts that the state can verify for worried parents!
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What is it you think theyre going to say. Or are you afraid to take a firm position?
Doesn't matter what his position is anyway. he has either outright lied or been wrong about almost every detail so far.
I called and this is what I learned:
ASR has no licensed teachers, no special ed teachers and no special ed administrator.
TheWho doesn't dispute this. He agrees.
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What is it you think theyre going to say. Or are you afraid to take a firm position?
Doesn't matter what his position is anyway. he has either outright lied or been wrong about almost every detail so far.
I called and this is what I learned:
ASR has no licensed teachers, no special ed teachers and no special ed administrator.
TheWho doesn't dispute this. He agrees.
Ha,Ha,Ha, This is too funny...and they will say there is no building either I guess... you will hear that ASR is a specialized school serving western Massachusetts for Struggling teens. They have licensed teachers and licensed counselors and 100% of the kids who graduate go on to college if they choose to. They offer SAT and PSAT testing and if you finish up high school while there you can receive your high school diploma.
Doesn’t matter what I say or anyone here says... the parents need to check it out for themselves
Here check it out:
http://www.swiftriver.com/ (http://www.swiftriver.com/)
They dont accept all kids but the ones they do end up doing well after graduation. The best thing to do is pose these questions to admissions.
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TheWho said:
"They have licensed teachers and licensed counselors"
This is 100% false. In fact ASR doesn't have any licensed teachers nor any licensed counselors.
TheWho would now have parents not verify with the state, but rather go to ASR to verify (police themselves).
Sorry, Who, but you can't change the facts. The state has verified no licensed teachers or counselors. If you don't like the state's response, I suppose you should take it up with them. Citing ASR's promotional materials as facts and saying the state is lying just further ruins your already severely damaged credibility...
I know it makes you angry and upset when you're proven wrong and you resort to saying "the state is lying" but you need to calm down and start presenting rational arguments about what you want changed in how the state reports these facts instead of just pointing fingers and blaming the state for ASR's shortcomings and lack of licensure of its employees.
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What is it you think theyre going to say. Or are you afraid to take a firm position?
Doesn't matter what his position is anyway. he has either outright lied or been wrong about almost every detail so far.
I called and this is what I learned:
ASR has no licensed teachers, no special ed teachers and no special ed administrator.
TheWho doesn't dispute this. He agrees.
Ha,Ha,Ha, This is too funny...and they will say there is no building either I guess... you will hear that ASR is a specialized school serving western Massachusetts for Struggling teens. They have licensed teachers and licensed counselors and 100% of the kids who graduate go on to college if they choose to. They offer SAT and PSAT testing and if you finish up high school while there you can receive your high school diploma.
Doesn’t matter what I say or anyone here says... the parents need to check it out for themselves
Here check it out:
http://www.swiftriver.com/ (http://www.swiftriver.com/)
They dont accept all kids but the ones they do end up doing well after graduation. The best thing to do is pose these questions to admissions.
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Cindy why would you encourage us to discuss the matter with the state and then turn around and suggest we should discuss the matter with the school?
Is it because the state gave us information that showed you to be a liar?
The previous poster is correct, should parents rely on ASR for valid information when its clear the only one regulating ASR is ASR?
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TheWho said:
"They have licensed teachers and licensed counselors"
This is 100% false. In fact ASR doesn't have any licensed teachers nor any licensed counselors.
Hmmmm.. Wrong at every turn, here are some licensed counselors at ASR.
Francis Bartolomeo-Director of Counseling-Licensed Social Worker
Tanya Beecher- Clinical Counselor-Licensed Social Worker
Sabrina Herman-Clinical Counselor-Licensed Social Worker
This is why I stress talking to the school or call Department of Education's Program Quality Assurance Services Unit (781) 338-3700.
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Glad I could help you out there Cindy.
Perhaps the better term would be ASR has no licensed "therapist".
A 18 year old working at a summer camp can be called a "counselor".
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TheWho said:
"They have licensed teachers and licensed counselors"
This is 100% false. In fact ASR doesn't have any licensed teachers nor any licensed counselors.
Hmmmm.. Wrong at every turn, here are some licensed counselors at ASR.
Francis Bartolomeo-Director of Counseling-Licensed Social Worker
Tanya Beecher- Clinical Counselor-Licensed Social Worker
Sabrina Herman-Clinical Counselor-Licensed Social Worker
This is why I stress talking to the school or call Department of Education's Program Quality Assurance Services Unit (781) 338-3700.
I see you skipped over the teachers again :roll:
I never said anything about counselors. I was discussing teachers. Let's not get off track (although you'd desperately like to).
ASR has no licesned teachers.
So, to avoid your changing the subject again, please name ASR's licesned teachers and provide links to verify their licensure
Sorry, but you're just not telling the truth here, Who. you're desperate to avoid the fact that ASR doesn't employ qualified licensed teachers and you're showing how far you'll go to avoid that fact. It's sad, but you need to be accountable for telling lies.
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True. I verified these facts with EEC:
-no special ed teachers or administrators - none
-no licensed teachers
And this fact with DMH:
-no licensed counselors
Does anyone else find this funny (Deja vu all over again!!)
This person claimed to have called and checked with authorities. I provided evidence to the contrary (proving they never made the call and lied to us) and now the poster is down to one problem with ASR:
They claim they have no licensed teachers although they hand out diplomas in the state of Massachusetts and 100% of the students go onto college after graduation if they choose.
Do I have a list of teachers’ certifications, no I don’t. This is why I encourage you to call the school or State department (DOE)
Department of Education's Program Quality Assurance Services Unit (781) 338-3700.
http://www.swiftriver.com/ (http://www.swiftriver.com/)
I think the horse is dead already, Ha,Ha,Ha,
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Yes, the horse is dead.
There are no licensed teachers at ASR and TheWho can't provide any evidence that there are.
They are in fact not giving out legal diplomas. Since ASR doesn't appear in the Mohawk Regional School District's comprehensive review for 2007, that would indicate they are not in fact issuing any diplomas through the district or the state. Anybody can hand out a piece of paper and call it a "diploma" but that doesn't mean that it is valid or sanctioned by the state.
In addition, ASR is unaccredited which bars them legaly from issuing state sanctioned diplomas. Unaccredited schools that hand out diplomas have a name - "diploma mills".
Remember, Ivy Ridge was giving out "diplomas" - until they were forced by NYS DOE to stop.
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Does anyone else find this funny (Deja vu all over again!!)
We all find you to be a bit of a joke yes, but we probably arent laughing at the same thing youre laughing at. Of course you only laugh to hide your pain, we laugh because its funny to watch you make a fool out of yourself.
This person claimed to have called and checked with authorities. I provided evidence to the contrary (proving they never made the call and lied to us) and now the poster is down to one problem with ASR:
Please provide the evidence you have which proves this person never made a call. Be cautious about this, remember you've been burned once before regarding just such a claim. Remember the time you pretended to have proven that DJ never called up that Congressmans office. You walked away with your tail tucked between your legs because you could prove nothing. As to problems with ASR there are still several that are ongoing.
ASR is still monitoring/restricting communication in defiance of the OCCS mandate.
ASR has no licensed teachers on staff.
ASR has no licensed therapist on regular staff.
The student population with special needs exceeds 30% yet that have yet to apply for proper licensure.
ASR is unlicensed.
ASR is unregulated.
So then it would appear there is more than one issue on the table. Try and keep up.
They claim they have no licensed teachers although they hand out diplomas in the state of Massachusetts and 100% of the students go onto college after graduation if they choose.
A diploma is a piece of paper, its meaningless with a govt entity to back it up. I'm curious though, can you back up this 100% go to college claim without citing ASR's own webpage?
Do I have a list of teachers’ certifications, no I don’t. This is why I encourage you to call the school or State department (DOE)
Department of Education's Program Quality Assurance Services Unit (781) 338-3700.
We already did, we know they arent licensed. Its time for you to get on board with this.
I think the horse is dead already, Ha,Ha,Ha,
Youre right it is, the matter has been settled. Youre a liar and we were right. The thing to focus on now is exposing ASR and forcing them to become properly licensed. Ha ha ha.
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BTW, what you referred to as "licensed counselors" are actually licensed social workers, a fact which RB pointed out a long time ago in another thread. He was talking about the people who actually work with the kids all day every day and facilitate group therapy. None of them are licensed and they're providing therapy illegally. That issue has been settled already.
In any case, we were focusing on academics and established the fact that ASR employs only unlicensed teachers.
Feel free to call DOE and verify or just look at ASR's website - no licensed teachers there! In fact, most, if not all, of the teachers are "cross-utilized," that is teaching subjects for which they have no education, a situation that would be prohibited if they were licensed... Licensed teachers are required to have a degree in the subject they teach. ASR's teachers don't and therefore can't possibly be licensed.
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BTW, what you referred to as "licensed counselors" are actually licensed social workers, a fact which RB pointed out a long time ago in another thread. He was talking about the people who actually work with the kids all day every day and facilitate group therapy. None of them are licensed and they're providing therapy illegally. That issue has been settled already.
In any case, we were focusing on academics and established the fact that ASR employs only unlicensed teachers.
Feel free to call DOE and verify or just look at ASR's website - no licensed teachers there! In fact, most, if not all, of the teachers are "cross-utilized," that is teaching subjects for which they have no education, a situation that would be prohibited if they were licensed... Licensed teachers are required to have a degree in the subject they teach. ASR's teachers don't and therefore can't possibly be licensed.
With your credible history of facts here today I don’t think we need to verify anything, Guest. I vote to just shut them down, today!! They are a nuisance and provide no value. No one is licensed, they torture kids....lets go I'll meet you out front in 2 hours... who cares if the state see them as a school, its you and I that really matter and they should listen to us!! Ha,Ha,Ha,
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who cares if the state see them as a school, its you and I that really matter and they should listen to us!! Ha,Ha,Ha,
The state sees them as a school? What gave you that idea? They arent recognized as a licensed program by either the district they reside in or the DoE. So who exactly views them as a school? And what kind of school at that?
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I vote to just shut them down, today!! They are a nuisance and provide no value. No one is licensed, they torture kids....lets go I'll meet you out front in 2 hours... who cares if the state see them as a school, its you and I that really matter and they should listen to us!! Ha,Ha,Ha,
Translation: "I've stepped in it again and have been thoroughly proven wrong so I'll resort to hyperbole to try to shift the focus."
Nobody said anything like this. I personally don't care if they get shut down, but I'm not calling for it. I'm calling for them to follow the law and hire licesnded qualified teachers, which they currently do not, a fact you've been painstakingly avoiding to address.
Look, ASR isn't going to improve unless consumers demand that they do. Unfortunately, a direct appeal gets nowhere - ASR refuses to hire licensed teachers, so complaints to the state are in order. Qualified personnel are expensive and as long as ASR can avoid hiring qualified personnel, they will, despite the poor care received by the children.
The real problem lies with desperate parents like TheWho. He knows that the teachers are unqualified, unlicensed and cross-utilized. He simply doesn't care. That's unfortunate and it shows the value he places on the quality of life he wants for his child. It's sad.
Fortunately, there are more discriminating parents who reject ASR's unqualified and unlicesned teaching staff and won't send their kids there, like the parent that posted earlier saying she was scared off by TheWho's patent acceptance of these unqualified personnel and the excuses he made about them. For her, ASR simply wasn't good enough, even for her "troubled teen". She believed that qualified personnel are required (by law and good practice) to actually help these kids.
ASR just warehouses them with their unqualifed personnel and at least some consumers reject this..
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Look, ASR isn't going to improve unless consumers demand that they do.
The first statement that I have heard here, today, that I agree with. This is the driving force behind any thriving business. ASR has come a long way since its beginnings. We made some immediate suggestions when my daughter first attended and some other parents concurred and changes were made to benefit the students there As we saw our kids progress thru the program we were approached by staff on how we felt things were going. ASR was very receptive to our feed back and again implemented many of our suggestions.
As I have been following updates on their growth and progress over the years it appears they are continuing to respond to their customer’s demands, they have shifted their program to a clinical based approach which should allow for better tracking and measurements which can be used to implement continuous improvement models.
If ASR does not have Certified teachers and this is the law then they need to get on it. If it is near the top of the list for most parents contemplating sending their kids to ASR then based on ASR past track record in responding to parents needs I believe changes will be made in due course. If they don’t respond to customers needs attendance will drop off, so this is pretty much self correcting.
At the time my daughter stated there she was not attending school at all and there were more important issues then looking at academic credentials (for us). One of the main things was ASR got her interested in school again and back into routine that was healthy. After she returned home she graduated with her class on time.
So for me, yes certified teachers would be great, but it wasn’t the top of the list for us.
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Perhaps a better way of putting that would have been to say,
"ASR isnt going to make changes unless we force them to."
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At the time my daughter stated there she was not attending school at all and there were more important issues then looking at academic credentials (for us). One of the main things was ASR got her interested in school again and back into routine that was healthy. After she returned home she graduated with her class on time.
So for me, yes certified teachers would be great, but it wasn’t the top of the list for us.
So, $6000/month for a tutor and a Nanny who set limits in an isolated bubble.
That may be acceptable for you, but other parents should know what they are buying and that the program is not monitored by any ouside entity. Parents make the assumption that these programs are licensed as treatment facilities. If they aren't, that should be disclosed.
In addition to a license to operate a residential facility, ASR also needs a license to provide substance abuse counseling. That's a separate license, not covered in the regs for residential programs.
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At the time my daughter stated there she was not attending school at all and there were more important issues then looking at academic credentials (for us). One of the main things was ASR got her interested in school again and back into routine that was healthy. After she returned home she graduated with her class on time.
So for me, yes certified teachers would be great, but it wasn’t the top of the list for us.
So, $6000/month for a tutor and a Nanny who set limits in an isolated bubble.
That may be acceptable for you, but other parents should know what they are buying and that the program is not monitored by any ouside entity. Parents make the assumption that these programs are licensed as treatment facilities. If they aren't, that should be disclosed.
In addition to a license to operate a residential facility, ASR also needs a license to provide substance abuse counseling. That's a separate license, not covered in the regs for residential programs.
I don’t think parents make any assumption they are affiliated with the state or under their domain, not at $6,000 a month. For that amount of money I would expect them to be totally independent and not subjected to state authority at all. If that were the case I would just ask the state to pay for my child to go there
Why should I pay if it is a state school? Once the state gets their grips on the place it wont be worth $3,000 and I would expect the state to pick up half of that because I am a tax payer.
Have you ever been inside a state run facility? Then campare that to a private institution that takes no insurance payments and is totally out of pocket....its a big difference and this is what I paid for, not a state run boot camp or RTC...big difference and the parents who have researched these places know it, that is why they fork over the money for their kids to attend a better place, higher success rates, follow-up programs, counseling etc.
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Yeah, you paid $6000 a month for a program that can't meet the minumum standards required by the state. This isn't something to be proud of or brag about. This makes you, in layman's terms, a "sucker".
You paid all that money for a facility that has far less qualified (and completely unlicensed) staff than is required at the worst of worst state schools.
How you try turn that into a positive is beyond reason and shows the impairment in your logic and reasoning.
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I don’t think parents make any assumption they are affiliated with the state or under their domain, not at $6,000 a month. For that amount of money I would expect them to be totally independent and not subjected to state authority at all. If that were the case I would just ask the state to pay for my child to go there
Why should I pay if it is a state school? Once the state gets their grips on the place it wont be worth $3,000 and I would expect the state to pick up half of that because I am a tax payer.
Have you ever been inside a state run facility? Then campare that to a private institution that takes no insurance payments and is totally out of pocket....its a big difference and this is what I paid for, not a state run boot camp or RTC...big difference and the parents who have researched these places know it, that is why they fork over the money for their kids to attend a better place, higher success rates, follow-up programs, counseling etc.
What gives the idea that being regulated by the state is the same thing as being run by the state?
Youre simply trying to use scare tactics that have no basis in reality. Any school where tuition is 6000 a month should be abiding by all state regulations and have the highest standards. Not trying to get away with things at every turn.
I assume thanks to a donation from your daddy you attended some college or another, did it amount to $6000.00 a month? Factor in inflation, and see what it comes to. Still not $6000.00 a month? Hmmm what's an expensive college these days? How about Harvard? Including room&board, personal expenses and even a travel estimate a school year at Harvard would cost you around $50,000.
The same amount of time at ASR (minus all incidentals) would run about $60,000.
Harvard is a private institution is it not? Yet they appear to be operating within the law. They dont avoid state oversight.
Thier diplomas count for something.
What's the difference Cindy?
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Yeah, you paid $6000 a month for a program that can't meet the minumum standards required by the state. This isn't something to be proud of or brag about. This makes you, in layman's terms, a "sucker".
You paid all that money for a facility that has far less qualified (and completely unlicensed) staff than is required at the worst of worst state schools.
How you try turn that into a positive is beyond reason and shows the impairment in your logic and reasoning.
I think that you are missing the point. I didn’t pay for "state level" oversight. We could have received that at a variety of state run facilities. But the programs don’t have a very good reputation. ASR was a good fit for us and my daughter did very well, got back into her studies, resolved her issues and got back on track...that’s what we paid for and that is what was delivered.
It was cheap in comparison to what we received.
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and you refuse to accept that you paid for an unlicensed program run by unlicensed staff members. And you apparently paid more for it then people pay for a year at Harvard.
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and you refuse to accept that you paid for an unlicensed program run by unlicensed staff members. And you apparently paid more for it then people pay for a year at Harvard.
whether it was free or cost a million dollars its hard to put a price on your own child, most of us would do anything to help them and protect them.
If you feel the kids would be better served by having the government (Bush and friends) oversee the day to day operations and dictate what food to serve change the name of the dinning area to "Mess Hall", have them all dress alike in fatigues and chant. If you feel this is therapeutic for one of your kids, great, you don’t have to send them to ASR. That’s what is great about this country, we have choices. If we see a need to break away from public schools and seek a private institution that is not state run or tainted, we can do that for $6,000 a month.
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and you refuse to accept that you paid for an unlicensed program run by unlicensed staff members. And you apparently paid more for it then people pay for a year at Harvard.
whether it was free or cost a million dollars its hard to put a price on your own child, most of us would do anything to help them and protect them.
If you feel the kids would be better served by having the government (Bush and friends) oversee the day to day operations and dictate what food to serve change the name of the dinning area to "Mess Hall", have them all dress alike in fatigues and chant. If you feel this is therapeutic for one of your kids, great, you don’t have to send them to ASR. That’s what is great about this country, we have choices. If we see a need to break away from public schools and seek a private institution that is not state run or tainted, we can do that for $6,000 a month.
Nobody said anything like that. Just more hyperbole on your part to distract from the fact that state run schools retain qualified teachers and ASR doesn't. In fact, ASR doesn't employ a single teacher with the credentials to work in the worst of the worst public schools in Mass. That's very disturbing...
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TheWho said:
"I think that you are missing the point. I didn’t pay for "state level" oversight. We could have received that at a variety of state run facilities."
Right, I understand. You paid for less than state level services, and a premium price for it at that! and you're correct, you could have gotten real services from qualified licensed people, but you opted for less - sham services from unqualified people instead.
Got it. We're very clear on that already.
Your fingers must be bleeding by now! Get some coffee, ice your fingers and get ready for your upcoming all-nighter of saying the same things over and over. You're going to need your strength for frantically and compulsively responding to no less than three threads simultaneously now. What does your wife say about your little habit - or has she left you already? :D
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and you refuse to accept that you paid for an unlicensed program run by unlicensed staff members. And you apparently paid more for it then people pay for a year at Harvard.
whether it was free or cost a million dollars its hard to put a price on your own child, most of us would do anything to help them and protect them.
If you feel the kids would be better served by having the government (Bush and friends) oversee the day to day operations and dictate what food to serve change the name of the dinning area to "Mess Hall", have them all dress alike in fatigues and chant. If you feel this is therapeutic for one of your kids, great, you don’t have to send them to ASR. That’s what is great about this country, we have choices. If we see a need to break away from public schools and seek a private institution that is not state run or tainted, we can do that for $6,000 a month.
Nobody said anything like that. Just more hyperbole on your part to distract from the fact that state run schools retain qualified teachers and ASR doesn't. In fact, ASR doesn't employ a single teacher with the credentials to work in the worst of the worst public schools in Mass. That's very disturbing...
Its disturbing because you know it is the truth. Getting the government involved never improves anything. Can the public school system claim 100% of the kids move on the college they choose? Once a teacher attains tenure they can be as ineffective as they please and not get fired, but the are fully licensed Ha,Ha,Ha,...is this what you want for your kids?
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No, I want ineffective and unlicensed teachers like at ASR! Any way I can pay an exorbitant amount of money for it? I want that, too! Oh yeah, can you throw in some isolation, forced therapy by unlicensed staff and physical punishment? Included in the package you say? Great!
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What does your wife say about your little habit - or has she left you already?
My wife almost cracked a rib when she saw that…… my nephew talked me into this home theater system and he installed it for me and we ended up getting two flat screens so we could dedicate one for the television (downstairs) and use the other for the monitor. Well this thing is huge , people out in the pool area (which is a good 30 feet away) can read what I am writing if the curtains are not pulled all the way. Good thing I am not into porn or the helicopters would crash trying to get a glimpse as they land next door (I have an annoying idiot neighbor who is very rich). Anyway my wife was sitting here asking what I am doing and why I am spending so much time on typing and suggested I hire someone to do what ever it is I need to do here…..Oh,No, I already hired someone to play golf for me!!! When all of a sudden your post came up!!
So no she hasn’t left me yet, Ha,Ha,Ha,…. But it was good timing when that was posted.
Sorry , a little off subject, but worth mentioning
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Oh, so just your daughter left you so far.
Funny that your wife wanted you to hire someone type what you're typing on Fornits (would be a ton of overtime and substantial doubletime!)...Strangely echoes when you two decided to pay someone else to do your parenting...Hmmmm... Makes sense now.
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I have an annoying idiot neighbor...
So does your neighbor. Concidence? I think not... :D :D :D :wink:
Anyway, this is precisely the vision I had of you that you just confirmed. Funny I had you pegged exactly this way, too..
People out at the pool, having fun, doing things together while you sit huddled in front of the computer, curtains drawn, responding compulsively to a message board populted largely by abused children, typing furiously until your fingers bleed while your stuck-up, materialistic bitch of a wife nags "Can't you pay someone for that?"
Dang. That's priceless. Priceless.
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So does your neighbor. Concidence? I think not...
No, that was priceless.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Its disturbing because you know it is the truth.
Yes we know ASR employs no licensed teachers. This point has been settled.
Getting the government involved never improves anything
Is that so? So youre an anarchist then? Or maybe just a hard core libertarian? Tell us more about your anti government stance.
Can the public school system claim 100% of the kids move on the college they choose?
No, but neither can the TBS system so I guess they break about even there.
Once a teacher attains tenure they can be as ineffective as they please and not get fired
Is this something that actually occurs or just more of your speculation?
but the are fully licensed Ha,Ha,Ha,...is this what you want for your kids?
Yes, we want fully licensed teachers.
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SOMETimes you need to know when to quit , guest you have prooved that ASR is operating without being qualified to do anything and is in violation of the law
its settled. to conitnue this back and forth just distracts from that. litterally- it moves away from the points that have been made and rehashes the issue in different words...its done
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I agree. It's settled. Energy should be focused on lobbying the state agencies to enforce their regulations in regard to ASR. Let's work that contact list and get it going.
It is amusing to watch TheWho get totally worn down through his self-flagellation though. That's worth something.
But, yes, some facts have been established.
1. ASR is classified by the state. They are classified as a "Special Education School".
2. ASR does not employ any licensed teachers nor any special educators, so they remain "unapproved" by the state.
3. ASR does not appear in the Mohawk Trails Regional School District's comprehensive review for 2007 which indicates their "partnership" with the district has ended in 2007.
4. ASR remains unaccredited and is legally barred by the state from issuing state sanctioned diplomas.
These appear to be the only objectively verifiable facts and the rest of the back-and-forth is just raw speculation.
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I agree. It's settled. Energy should be focused on lobbying the state agencies to enforce their regulations in regard to ASR. Let's work that contact list and get it going.
It is amusing to watch TheWho get totally worn down through his self-flagellation though. That's worth something.
But, yes, some facts have been established.
1. ASR is classified by the state. They are classified as a "Special Education School".
2. ASR does not employ any licensed teachers nor any special educators, so they remain "unapproved" by the state.
3. ASR does not appear in the Mohawk Regional School District's comprehensive review for 2007 which indicates their "partnership" with the district has ended in 2007.
4. ASR remains unaccredited and is legally barred by the state from issuing state sanctioned diplomas.
These appear to be the only objectively verifiable facts and the rest of the back-and-forth is just raw speculation.
They are "Unapproved" as a special education school because they dont fit that category fully. Their students dont have IEP's, they dont employ special ed teachers etc. They are a private boarding school with therapy. The state needs to make a new classification. They dont fit into any one category...... hybrid if you will......
The state needs to redefine their categories if they want to gain oversight otherwise ASR will continue forward with out them. We cant expect the school to sort all this out and stand still while the state decides what to do.
These are the facts..... the state should get their butt in gear if they want to oversee them, obviously they dont.
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I agree. It's settled. Energy should be focused on lobbying the state agencies to enforce their regulations in regard to ASR. Let's work that contact list and get it going.
It is amusing to watch TheWho get totally worn down through his self-flagellation though. That's worth something.
But, yes, some facts have been established.
1. ASR is classified by the state. They are classified as a "Special Education School".
2. ASR does not employ any licensed teachers nor any special educators, so they remain "unapproved" by the state.
3. ASR does not appear in the Mohawk Regional School District's comprehensive review for 2007 which indicates their "partnership" with the district has ended in 2007.
4. ASR remains unaccredited and is legally barred by the state from issuing state sanctioned diplomas.
These appear to be the only objectively verifiable facts and the rest of the back-and-forth is just raw speculation.
As was stated, these are the objectively verifiable facts. The state's motivation to do or not do things, the "hybrid" argument, etc., is all just speculation. The facts above are the only ones that are verifiable and not someone's opinion.
What AnonWho just posted is simply more of his opinions, but the facts are listed in the quoted post above.
Let's just stick with facts to keep the dialogue real - nobody needs phonied-up information and opinions that don't bear out with the facts.
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Agreed. Let Cindy have his delusions and temper tantrums. He's not convincing anyone of anything except of the fact that we're right.
I spoke yesterday with someone in the EEC about what to do about ASR's violations. From my conversations with him I still believe the 30% rule would be the easiest route.
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Considering this:
3. ASR does not appear in the Mohawk Regional School District's comprehensive review for 2007 which indicates their "partnership" with the district has ended in 2007.
It would be a great idea to contact the EEC pointman for MTRSD to get a quality audit started or to get ASR to stop making the claim they are affiliated with MTRSD, which apparently they aren't.
Paul Battistoni 413-858-4591
PQA Liaison Staff for ASR, Mohawk Trail School District.
http://www.doe.mass.edu/pqa/staff/liaison.asp (http://www.doe.mass.edu/pqa/staff/liaison.asp)
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Considering this:
3. ASR does not appear in the Mohawk Regional School District's comprehensive review for 2007 which indicates their "partnership" with the district has ended in 2007.
It would be a great idea to contact the EEC pointman for MTRSD to get a quality audit started or to get ASR to stop making the claim they are affiliated with MTRSD, which apparently they aren't.
Paul Battistoni 413-858-4591
PQA Liaison Staff for ASR, Mohawk Trail School District.
http://www.doe.mass.edu/pqa/staff/liaison.asp (http://www.doe.mass.edu/pqa/staff/liaison.asp)
Thank you guest, Finally someone is listening.....
As I have been saying all along.... Call the school or call the number above or the DOE in Massachusetts.
They do have licensed counselors and they dont need to have special ed teachers as many here would have you believe. They are not licensed in the state of Massachusetts as a TBS because the state doesnt license TBS's simply because they dont have regulations written for them.
Call and ask, like the guest suggested also.
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They do have licensed counselors
Do they have licensed therapist?
and they dont need to have special ed teachers as many here would have you believe.
Why not?
They are not licensed in the state of Massachusetts
Thanks but we already knew that.
as a TBS because the state doesnt license TBS's simply because they dont have regulations written for them.
They arent licensed as anything. They meet the definition of a special needs program which Mass does have regulations for. ASR is simply avoiding them.
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Still the only hard facts posted on the subject:
1. ASR is classified by the state. They are classified as a "Special Education School".
2. ASR does not employ any licensed teachers nor any special educators, so they remain "unapproved" by the state.
3. ASR does not appear in the Mohawk Trails Regional School District's comprehensive review for 2007 which indicates their "partnership" with the district has ended in 2007.
4. ASR remains unaccredited and is legally barred by the state from issuing state sanctioned diplomas.
RB, they do have licensed therapists (social workers) who see the kids 1 hour per week.
The problem is that the regular day staff provide the group sessions three times per week for roughly six to nine hours total and none of them are licensed.
This is illegal, and it's a big problem, not only legally for ASR, but more importantly for the children who are subjected to forced therapy by completely uneducated and unlicensed staff who are exploring very painful and sensitive issues for these kids without any expertise.
This could lead to disasterous consequences, as evidenced by several post-program suicides and hospitalizations.
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So therapy is in fact being practiced by unlicensed unqualified people.
Major selling point there Cindy, why havent you mentioned it before you scamp?
I just heard back from the EEC, the person that I spoke with is waiting to hear back from their legal department regarding a number of issues. As soon as he forwards that onto me I will of course share the information. He said in the meantime that one possible route for us to take in getting the ball rolling is to get ahold of a current or recent employee/ student who would be willing to discuss the current situation at ASR. He said without a first hand complaint they cannot investigate. This is of course due to ASR avoiding regulation and oversight. Once in however they can investigate all kinds of things, including just how many kids qualify as special needs. If there happens to be more than 30% which are, then the free ride is over and licensure is a must. Even without it he mentioned there are numerous other venues for us to explore. He said after their experience with DeSisto they have a little better understanding of how these places work.
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And his definition of "special needs"? What's his interpretation?
As I posted yesterday, DOE and EEC defer to the State for a definition, and the state defers to the IDEA definition; which doesn't even require a dx. Using the IDEA definition, and the profile of kids ASR 'treats', I would think they would all be classfied as "special needs".
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=257179#257179 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=257179#257179)
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That's actually one of the things he's waiting to hear back on from the legal department. One thing he did make clear though is that an IEP is by no means the only qualifier nor is the test Cindy keeps babbeling on about.
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So what it seems like you want us to believe is a parent can call up the state office and say “My son is Disabled because he is having a tough time in school and is doing drugs so I would like him classified as a “Special needs “student and received services from the state. Do you think the state would just say okay? Or do you think he would need to be evaluated and determined to be special needs by the state he is in?
We can all say our kids are special needs kids, but the state needs to approve every case and the parents need to apply for this status thru the DOE or Early intervention.
The point I have been trying to get across is the state that the child lives in determines if the child is a “special needs” student. They need to be classified as such and placed within the system…..some boarding school in another state cant classify kids as special needs for the state only the state can do this. I may have a child that fits the special needs definition but choose not to have him classified, so therefore he fits the definition but is not, by law, a “Special needs” student.
ASR’s definition and the states definition can be completely different.
Hope this clears this up.
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So what it seems like you want us to believe is a parent can call up the state office and say “My son is Disabled because he is having a tough time in school and is doing drugs so I would like him classified as a “Special needs “student and received services from the state.
No one has said anything to this affect. Pay closer attention.
Do you think the state would just say okay? Or do you think he would need to be evaluated and determined to be special needs by the state he is in?
Of course. Who has said otherwise? Stay focused Cindy, ha, ha, ha.
We can all say our kids are special needs kids, but the state needs to approve every case and the parents need to apply for this status thru the DOE or Early intervention.
How many of those kids are at ASR is unknown. What we do know is that Massachusettes has stated that ASR is set up to be treating such kids.
The point I have been trying to get across is the state that the child lives in determines if the child is a “special needs” student. They need to be classified as such and placed within the system…..some boarding school in another state cant classify kids as special needs for the state only the state can do this. I may have a child that fits the special needs definition but choose not to have him classified, so therefore he fits the definition but is not, by law, a “Special needs” student.
Yet ASR continues to provide services for special needs kids. It doesnt matter if theyve been deemed as such. When EEC goes in theyre going to be able to determine for themselves how many of these kids actually qualify as special needs. If that number is greater than 30% (which it will be) then ASR will be forced to apply for licensure.
ASR’s definition and the states definition can be completely different.
Actually the state's authority supercedes the imaginary autonomy that ASR believes it has. When the state reps come in it's going to break down one of two ways.
1. They're going to come and find all these kids who meet the definition of "special needs" and force ASR to become properly licensed. My money's on this one.
2. They're going to come and find the kids don't meet the definition of special needs and then wonder why the school is providing special needs services to kids who clearly dont need it. At which point they'll force ASR to become properly licensed.
Sorry if this makes you mad Cindy but it's the reality of the situation. Get used to it, ha, ha ,ha.
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So what it seems like you want us to believe is a parent can call up the state office and say “My son is Disabled because he is having a tough time in school and is doing drugs so I would like him classified as a “Special needs “student and received services from the state.
No, idiot. What state office would they call? You're off topic intentionally, as usual. We're discussing the definition of "special needs" in terms of "services provided" and as that relates to licensure.
Do you think the state would just say okay? Or do you think he would need to be evaluated and determined to be special needs by the state he is in?
Nope, that would be the school district's job. Did you read the case law that was provided? No of course not.
We can all say our kids are special needs kids, but the state needs to approve every case and the parents need to apply for this status thru the DOE or Early intervention.
Nope, and irrelevant to this discussion/issue.
The point I have been trying to get across is the state that the child lives in determines if the child is a “special needs” student. They need to be classified as such and placed within the system…..some boarding school in another state cant classify kids as special needs for the state only the state can do this.
Oh really. HLA slapped a dx on my son that he didn't have prior to attending that pit. No one in Tx determined him to be "special needs". Again, totally irrelavent to this discussion/issue. The kids do not have to carry a dx or be classified as "special needs" in their home state, in order to be considered "special needs" in the state they are attending "school". Again, as this relates to licensing.
I may have a child that fits the special needs definition but choose not to have him classified, so therefore he fits the definition but is not, by law, a “Special needs” student.
That's right, so don't go to your school district and ask for special services or considerations unless you are prepared for your kid to be classified as "special needs".
ASR’s definition and the states definition can be completely different. Hope this clears this up.
::roflmao:: About as clear as mud. ::bangin:: ASR can define it how they wish, but in case you're confused, the state will have the ultimate say.
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Sorry to get everyone riled up…Ha,Ha,Ha everyone gets so serious here... just wanted to clear up that you ,I or ASR don’t determine if a child is classified as “special needs”. This is determined by the state and the state alone. We don’t know what regulations apply because ASR isn’t classified clearly in any one category, i.e Private boarding school, Special ed school, RTC, mental facility etc…….. They are a hybrid presently because there doesn’t exist a category for TBS at this time.
So the state needs to define what regulations apply before determining compliance.
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Sorry to get everyone riled up…Ha,Ha,Ha everyone gets so serious here... just wanted to clear up that you ,I or ASR don’t determine if a child is classified as “special needs”. This is determined by the state and the state alone. We don’t know what regulations apply because ASR isn’t classified clearly in any one category, i.e Private boarding school, Special ed school, RTC, mental facility etc…….. They are a hybrid presently because there doesn’t exist a category for TBS at this time.
So the state needs to define what regulations apply before determining compliance.
So what you're saying, essentially, is that they're outside the law?
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Sorry to get everyone riled up…Ha,Ha,Ha everyone gets so serious here... just wanted to clear up that you ,I or ASR don’t determine if a child is classified as “special needs”. This is determined by the state and the state alone. We don’t know what regulations apply because ASR isn’t classified clearly in any one category, i.e Private boarding school, Special ed school, RTC, mental facility etc…….. They are a hybrid presently because there doesn’t exist a category for TBS at this time.
So the state needs to define what regulations apply before determining compliance.
Ha, ha, ha keep telling yourself that Cindy.
As upset as youre getting about it now I can only imagine what it will be like when the state does force licensure onto the school.
"Why can't you see it's a hybrid! Being a hybrid means you dont have to follow any laws. That's why I got my daddy to buy me one. Now whenever I'm driving around in my hybrid and I come across a red light, I just drive right on through. Cause it's a hybrid!"
Nine years ago when the OCCS came into ASR and demanded they become licensed this hybrid argument didnt hold any water then any more then it does now. What got the OCCS to back off was that ASR filed for an exemption as a special needs school under the 30% rule. Now why would they need to file for an exemption for something they arent Cindy.
Answer me that if you can.
If you doubt the story I suggest you call up your bosses at ASR and verify it for yourself.
Their number is (800) 258-1770.
The difference now is that the definition for a "special needs" kid has become much broader. The exemption will no longer apply.
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Sorry to get everyone riled up…Ha,Ha,Ha everyone gets so serious here... just wanted to clear up that you ,I or ASR don’t determine if a child is classified as “special needs”. This is determined by the state and the state alone. We don’t know what regulations apply because ASR isn’t classified clearly in any one category, i.e Private boarding school, Special ed school, RTC, mental facility etc…….. They are a hybrid presently because there doesn’t exist a category for TBS at this time.
So the state needs to define what regulations apply before determining compliance.
So what you're saying, essentially, is that they're outside the law?
Well sort of...... but thinking out loud here......As a hypothetical situation. Lets say a small place opened in Boston and it served bagels and coffee. You could also read the many books they had around the Shoppe and purchase them or they would lend them to you to take home for a few days. The citys regulations state that a restaurant needs to have a minimum of 5 tables and this place doesn’t. Another person says they need to have a licensed librarian in order to lend books to the public. Another person says they should be a book store who serves food.
Which agency should they report to? Are they an evil place because they are fighting hiring a librarian? They are a great café that contributes to the neighborhood, people benefit from their services…there is no need to push to shut them down, it would be unjust.
So maybe the state decides to put them in the category of “Library” and makes a note that they aren’t approved . They would have a special status as a Hybrid between a library and a café, but not really adhering to one totally. So they wouldn’t be required to the regulations of a library and have 3 copies of “Tom Sawyer” etc.
ASR is in a similar situation:
In the state of Massachusetts they don’t have a category for Therapeutic boarding schools. So ASR fits partially under “Private Boarding school” , “Mental health facility”, “Special ed ...
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So what you're saying, essentially, is that they're outside the law?
Well sort of...... but thinking out loud here......
Done. Thank you Cindy, youve made your position quite clear. You believe that ASR is outside of the law and free to conduct themselves as best they see fit.
No further comment on the subject is needed from you.
Thank you for your time.
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Sorry to get everyone riled up…Ha,Ha,Ha everyone gets so serious here... just wanted to clear up that you ,I or ASR don’t determine if a child is classified as “special needs”. This is determined by the state and the state alone. We don’t know what regulations apply because ASR isn’t classified clearly in any one category, i.e Private boarding school, Special ed school, RTC, mental facility etc…….. They are a hybrid presently because there doesn’t exist a category for TBS at this time.
So the state needs to define what regulations apply before determining compliance.
So what you're saying, essentially, is that they're outside the law?
Well sort of...... but thinking out loud here......As a hypothetical situation. Lets say a small place opened in Boston and it served bagels and coffee. You could also read the many books they had around the Shoppe and purchase them or they would lend them to you to take home for a few days. The citys regulations state that a restaurant needs to have a minimum of 5 tables and this place doesn’t. Another person says they need to have a licensed librarian in order to lend books to the public. Another person says they should be a book store who serves food.
Which agency should they report to? Are they an evil place because they are fighting hiring a librarian? They are a great café that contributes to the neighborhood, people benefit from their services…there is no need to push to shut them down, it would be unjust.
So maybe the state decides to put them in the category of “Library” and makes a note that they aren’t approved . They would have a special status as a Hybrid between a library and a café, but not really adhering to one totally. So they wouldn’t be required to the regulations of a library and have 3 copies of “Tom Sawyer” etc.
ASR is in a similar situation:
In the state of Massachusetts they don’t have a category for Therapeutic boarding schools. So ASR fits partially under “Private Boarding school” , “Mental health facility”, “Special ed ...
Trying to figure out what category you are in.. as opposed to jumping through hoops to avoid being placed in one and/or selectively choosing (depending on who you are talking to) what catgory you are in... Very different things here. Plus: this is a place you send your kids to be "taken care of".... not a fucking bagel place. (HEY.. ya want saam lox wit ya brat?!?!)
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Psy, please he has made his feelings quite clear. He believes ASR and other programs like it shouldnt have to obey the law. No amount of common sense or facts is going to change his mind.
Let's not waste any more time trying.
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psy wrote:
Trying to figure out what category you are in.. as opposed to jumping through hoops to avoid being placed in one and/or selectively choosing (depending on who you are talking to) what catgory you are in... Very different things here. Plus: this is a place you send your kids to be "taken care of".... not a fucking bagel place. (HEY.. ya want saam lox wit ya brat?!?!)
What you are talking about is perspective… there is bound to be a fringe group outside the café protesting that they are skirting the law and should have a certified librarian and institute the dewy decimal system and calling it an evil place. From their point of view they are jumping thru hoops to avoid regulation…to most others it is a situation where the laws don’t apply neatly.
I am sure as more of these cafes opened around the state there would be better clarification with the law and maybe a separate category would emerge. “fast food “ Restaurants had the same problem adhering to all the regulations that mainstream restaurants had to adhere to and were permitted special waivers until finally a Fast food category was developed.
If more TBS were opened, eventually they would clarify regulations that applied specifically to them.
There is no attempt to minimize this because kids are involved. It’s a problem just the same and needs to be addressed.
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If more TBS were opened, eventually they would clarify regulations that applied specifically to them.
See DeSisto School.
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Right now, these are the facts available:
1. ASR is classified by the state. They are classified as a "Special Education School".
2. ASR does not employ any licensed teachers nor any special educators, so they remain "unapproved" by the state.
3. ASR does not appear in the Mohawk Trails Regional School District's comprehensive review for 2007 which indicates their "partnership" with the district has ended in 2007.
4. ASR remains unaccredited and is legally barred by the state from issuing state sanctioned diplomas.
The other licensing issues will be hammered out through a state investigation. For now, all we can really be sure of is that ASR is already classified by the state as "Special Education" and that ASR fails to meet the minimum standards prescribed under law.
The other assertions will have to be examined by the state, although, historically speaking, these investigations result in so-called "TBS's" being forced to license as RTC's or RCF's, so the odds-on favorite is exactly that - that, at the end of the day, ASR will be forced to license or close like many others that followed the same path.
We'll have to see how it plays out...
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Well, why don’t we accept them for what they are "Half Truths"...Ha,Ha,Ha,... Let’s sharpen our pencils a little and add some more facts:
1. ASR has been operating this way for a decade with full sanction from the State of Massachusetts and are sanctioned to hand out high school diplomas. 100% of the kids move on to college if they choose to.
2. No investigations are being done on ASR and there are no complaints filed against them.
3. The state has no classification for TBS so they were classified as a "Special ed school", with note that they are not held to this classes regulations.
4. ASR has not sought approval as a Special ed school because they are a hybrid (Part Private boarding school, part therapy school). The state needs to reclassify or special regulations need to be defined for TBS's.
Until such time as the state defines a class for TBS's, schools like ASR will have to remain in limbo and work the best they can with the laws that apply to other categories.
Lets not beat the school up because the state cant find the time to develop a category for them
..
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Until such time as the state defines a class for TBS's, schools like ASR will have to remain in limbo and work the best they can with the laws that apply to other categories.
We'll see. Until that time why don't you think about what argument you plan on making to the state agencies about why some compaines should be allowed to operate outside of the law.
As to your other garbage, the facts have been made quite clear. No one needs to hear any more of your propoganda or misinformation. Please keep it to yourself as you arent convincing anyone and we've already proven you wrong dozens of times over.
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...and are sanctioned to hand out high school diplomas.
Half truths? This is a no truth! Ha, ha, ha. Gotta love that kind of desperation.
Reminder: ASR is not an accredited school. Unaccredited schools are not allowed to hand out state sanctioned diplomas.
Calm down, stop being so rash. People understand you're not telling the truth, so stamping your feet and throwing a baby tantrum aren't going to change anything. Ha, ha, ha. Aren't you an adult? You act just like a child, ha, ha, ha...
Does anybody else see the rich irony that by compulsively responding with blatant lies TheWho is bringing all kinds of attention and negative publicity to his precious ASR? That he's destroying any shred of benefit of the doubt people have given ASR because he's so desperate to respond, even with lies?
Ha, ha, ha...
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These are the only objectively verifiable facts so far in this thread:
1. ASR is classified by the state. They are classified as a "Special Education School".
2. ASR does not employ any licensed teachers nor any special educators, so they remain "unapproved" by the state.
3. ASR does not appear in the Mohawk Trails Regional School District's comprehensive review for 2007 which indicates their "partnership" with the district has ended in 2007.
4. ASR remains unaccredited and is legally barred by the state from issuing state sanctioned diplomas.
The other licensing issues will be hammered out through a state investigation. For now, all we can really be sure of is that ASR is already classified by the state as "Special Education" and that ASR fails to meet the minimum standards prescribed under law.
The other assertions will have to be examined by the state, although, historically speaking, these investigations result in so-called "TBS's" being forced to license as RTC's or RCF's, so the odds-on favorite is exactly that - that, at the end of the day, ASR will be forced to license or close like many others that followed the same path.
We'll have to see how it plays out...
This is reasonable and accurate.
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Another fact about an ASR "diploma":
Massachusetts law requires that in order to recieve a legal, state issued diploma the student must take and pass the MCAS (Massachusetts Comprehensive Assessment System) tests.
ASR does not provide MCAS testing and therefore any "diploma they confer on a student is, by definition, not state sanctioned or recognized.
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Okay lets get back to it… just like when you said they had no licensed counselors…tsk tsk tsk…I had to provide the proof... you always make me do all the work, Ha,Ha,Ha, … we don’t hear those claims anymore do we, wonder why?
Okay, lets take a look at your list again:
1.ASR is classified by the state. They are classified as a "Special Education School".
Yes but they meet all the requirements as laid down by the state.
Here call: Department of Education's Program Quality Assurance Services Unit (781) 338-3700
“Approval of Public and Private Day and Residential Special Education School Programs
(1) Approval from the Department. The Department may grant approval to public and private day and residential schools providing special education services (special education schools) in Massachusetts in order to ensure that a continuum of special education programs is available to Massachusetts students with disabilities. Approval shall be granted by the Department in accordance with the provisions of 603 CMR 28.09. Upon receipt of approval special education schools are eligible to enroll publicly funded Massachusetts eligible students.
ASR never applied for this status and therefore the laws and regulations beyond this do not apply. So they are classified, by the state, as a Special ed school. But never sought approval in order to receive public funding because they want to stay private. Call the number above.
2. ASR does not employ any licensed teachers nor any special educators, so they remain "unapproved" by the state.
Big one… ASR employees licensed teachers !! oh no, what do we do now?
Check it out for yourselves, there is a phone number you can call:
http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/home.asp?m ... t=2&o=2588 (http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/home.asp?mode=o&ot=2&o=2588)
3. ASR does not appear in the Mohawk Trails Regional School District's comprehensive review for 2007 which indicates their "partnership" with the district has ended in 2007.
no, just means they haven’t talk about it yet , nice try though….
4. ASR remains unaccredited and is legally barred by the state from issuing state sanctioned diplomas.
Wrong again……ASR hands out diplomas via the laws of the state of Massachusetts. Check it out they are a school:
http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/search.asp ... e&town=114 (http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/search.asp?mode=g&county=Hampshire&town=114)
So the only thing that remains is how to define ASR. We all know they are a Therapeutic Boarding school (TBS). But how should the state handle this?
---Should they continue to classify them as a “Special education school” with special status (Hybrid)?
---Should they define requirements specific to TBS’s?
---Should they allow them to operate the way they have been for the past decade (considering there are no complaints from the students or parents)?
.
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Hey do any of the rest of you watch "The Office"?
Great show, I bring it up because I recently noticed how similar TheWho is to Dwight. Those of you who watch the show know what I'm talking about .
For example.
just like when you said they had no licensed counselors…tsk tsk tsk…I had to provide the proof... you always make me do all the work, Ha,Ha,Ha,
No Cindy, I provided the proof. You did nothing but try and take credit for it. As it stands however ASR has no licensed therapist on regular staff. They have three licensed social workers, the kids are forced to participate in therapy from unqualified staff.
ASR never applied for this status and therefore the laws and regulations beyond this do not apply. So they are classified, by the state, as a Special ed school. But never sought approval in order to receive public funding because they want to stay private. Call the number above.
So again you believe ASR is free to operate outside of the law. Is there anyway we could get a picture of you when you read theyve been forced to become licensed? Id really like to see that look on your face. As to no public funding, Cindy you are familiar with the No Child Left Behind Act correct? Has ASR recieved any funds as a result of it?
Big one… ASR employees licensed teachers !! oh no, what do we do now?
Check it out for yourselves, there is a phone number you can call:
The link DJ provided has nothing to do with the teachers being licensed. Weve already spoken with the DOE. None of the teachers at ASR are apparently licensed. Call them yourself and verify.
no, just means they haven’t talk about it yet , nice try though….
Cindy theyve had 10 years. What's the hold up?
Wrong again……ASR hands out diplomas via the laws of the state of Massachusetts. Check it out they are a school:
Again Cindy this link has nothing to do with diplomas. You yourself acknowledged they were never approved as a Special Education school. Therefore they arent actually a school and thus the diplomas are meaningless.
So the only thing that remains is how to define ASR. We all know they are a Therapeutic Boarding school (TBS). But how should the state handle this?
This wasnt what you claimed earlier. Why the sudden change of heart?
---Should they continue to classify them as a “Special education school” with special status (Hybrid)?
The state never classified them as a hybrid. Which is why you cannot provide any proof suggesting as much. ASR claimed to be a special needs program that could apply for an exemption under the 30% rule. Again, call them up and verify if you like.
---Should they define requirements specific to TBS’s?
Sufficent requirements are already in place. ASR has just worked very hard to avoid them.
---Should they allow them to operate the way they have been for the past decade (considering there are no complaints from the students or parents)?
And how would you know that Cindy?
Looking forward to watching you evade all the tough questions again due to your own fear and cowardice.
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Okay lets get back to it… just like when you said they had no licensed counselors…tsk tsk tsk…I had to provide the proof... you always make me do all the work, Ha,Ha,Ha, … we don’t hear those claims anymore do we, wonder why?
Okay, lets take a look at your list again:
1.ASR is classified by the state. They are classified as a "Special Education School".
Yes but they meet all the requirements as laid down by the state.
Here call: Department of Education's Program Quality Assurance Services Unit (781) 338-3700
“Approval of Public and Private Day and Residential Special Education School Programs
(1) Approval from the Department. The Department may grant approval to public and private day and residential schools providing special education services (special education schools) in Massachusetts in order to ensure that a continuum of special education programs is available to Massachusetts students with disabilities. Approval shall be granted by the Department in accordance with the provisions of 603 CMR 28.09. Upon receipt of approval special education schools are eligible to enroll publicly funded Massachusetts eligible students.
ASR never applied for this status and therefore the laws and regulations beyond this do not apply. So they are classified, by the state, as a Special ed school. But never sought approval in order to receive public funding because they want to stay private. Call the number above.
2. ASR does not employ any licensed teachers nor any special educators, so they remain "unapproved" by the state.
Big one… ASR employees licensed teachers !! oh no, what do we do now?
Check it out for yourselves, there is a phone number you can call:
http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/home.asp?m ... t=2&o=2588 (http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/home.asp?mode=o&ot=2&o=2588)
3. ASR does not appear in the Mohawk Trails Regional School District's comprehensive review for 2007 which indicates their "partnership" with the district has ended in 2007.
no, just means they haven’t talk about it yet , nice try though….
4. ASR remains unaccredited and is legally barred by the state from issuing state sanctioned diplomas.
Wrong again……ASR hands out diplomas via the laws of the state of Massachusetts. Check it out they are a school:
http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/search.asp ... e&town=114 (http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/search.asp?mode=g&county=Hampshire&town=114)
So the only thing that remains is how to define ASR. We all know they are a Therapeutic Boarding school (TBS). But how should the state handle this?
---Should they continue to classify them as a “Special education school” with special status (Hybrid)?
---Should they define requirements specific to TBS’s?
---Should they allow them to operate the way they have been for the past decade (considering there are no complaints from the students or parents)?
.
You forgot "Private Boarding School"
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SOMETimes I want you to know when to quit , guest you have prooved that ASR is operating without being qualified to do anything and is in violation of the law
its settled. to conitnue this back and forth just distracts from that. litterally- it moves away from the points that have been made and rehashes the issue in different words...its done
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TheWho exhibits desperation in its purest form. The last refuge of guilt is denial...
Sorry, Mr. Who, but the state verifies that you're lying! Ha, ha, ha...
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Yes, but the truth can be heard thru one phone call. I called and the teachers are licensed, as thewho said. Also the school is in good standing with the state. No violations or complaints.
http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/home.asp?m ... t=2&o=2588 (http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/home.asp?mode=o&ot=2&o=2588)
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Not true! A quick call does verify something, but that something is the fact that not a single teacher on staff is licensed. Don't try to bullshit anyone!
Also, in order to be licensed, one must have a master's degree in the subject to be taught and teachers cannot be cross-utilized because it's a license violation.
ASR's teachers are all cross-utilized and don't have master's degrees in the subjects they teach. Not to mention not a single one has a license on file or an interim license.
My wife is a licensed teacher in Conn, Mass and NY. Her licenses are on file and quite easiliy verified.
Please name the teachers you claim are licensed and provide their license numbers. If you don't, we can assume you're lying about it.
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Not true! A quick call does verify something, but that something is the fact that not a single teacher on staff is licensed. Don't try to bullshit anyone!
Also, in order to be licensed, one must have a master's degree in the subject to be taught and teachers cannot be cross-utilized because it's a license violation.
ASR's teachers are all cross-utilized and don't have master's degrees in the subjects they teach. Not to mention not a single one has a license on file or an interim license.
My wife is a licensed teacher in Conn, Mass and NY. Her licenses are on file and quite easiliy verified.
Please name the teachers you claim are licensed and provide their license numbers. If you don't, we can assume you're lying about it.
Are you nuts? Who is going to put someones name and licensed number on the internet without their permission except someone like Deborah?
If anyone wants to find out about a school or their teachers all someone needs to do is call the DOE in the state or the high school and inquire.
Its not information you verify on fornits.
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It's public record, darling. That's sort of the REASON for having licenses to teach, isn't it? To make public record of qualifications?And all of their names are already posted on the internet on ASR's website! Direct you anger at ASR for posting those names, not fornits. So silly and untruthful of you!
Caught another little liar in a whopper! Ha, ha, ha... Nice try though!
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Who is going to put someones name and licensed number on the internet without their permission except someone like Deborah?
TheWho (you :D) posted the names of the social workers right in this thread! Didn't see you getting mad when you thought it was to your advantage... Ha, ha, ha...
The REAL reason you won't post them is because you can't! Ha, ha, ha... So desperate and untruthful...
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Not true! A quick call does verify something, but that something is the fact that not a single teacher on staff is licensed. Don't try to bullshit anyone!
Also, in order to be licensed, one must have a master's degree in the subject to be taught and teachers cannot be cross-utilized because it's a license violation.
ASR's teachers are all cross-utilized and don't have master's degrees in the subjects they teach. Not to mention not a single one has a license on file or an interim license.
My wife is a licensed teacher in Conn, Mass and NY. Her licenses are on file and quite easiliy verified.
Please name the teachers you claim are licensed and provide their license numbers. If you don't, we can assume you're lying about it.
someone is not being truthful again, I have to do all the work.. you dont need a Masters degree.
Parents, you cannot believe anything you hear on this thread. Each and every time I need to research and expose the lies.
Here take a look, only a Bachelors degree is needed:
http://www.doe.mass.edu/Educators/e_lic ... ection=k12 (http://www.doe.mass.edu/Educators/e_license.html?section=k12)
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Ha, ha, ha... Too much! This is for a temporary or initial license and is only one of menay requirements that you conveniently ommitted! Ha, ha, ha...
See:
Professional License - An educator license issued to a person who has met the requirements for an Initial license, completed a Performance Assessment Program or an appropriate master's degree program, and met other requirements.
Once again, these nitpicky items would only matter, if ASR had licensed teachers!
Honestly, what difference is there if none are licensed anyway? You can't provide any proof of licensure at all, even though it's public record! Let's try to stay on topic... Ha, ha, ha...
These are the actual requirements:
Massachusetts general requirements
Possession of an Initial license for this field and at this grade level.
At least three full years of employment under the Initial license including completion of a one-year induction program with a mentor and 50 hours of mentored experience beyond the induction year.
One of the following:
For those who have completed any master's or higher degree or other advanced graduate program, not described in 603 CMR 7.04 (2) (b) 5, b, in an accredited college or university, the completion of an approved non-degree 12 credit Professional licensure program for this field and at this grade level. or
Completion of an approved district based program for the Professional License sought as set forth in 603 CMR 7.03(2) (b) 1, a. or
Completion of a master's degree program or other advanced graduate program in the academic discipline appropriate to the license sought in a graduate or professional school other than education in an accredited college or university. or
Programs leading to eligibility for master teacher status, such as those sponsored by the National Board for Professional Teaching Standards and others accepted by the Commissioner for this field at the appropriate grade level. or
Possession of a Professional teacher license in another field or
Completion of an approved master's degree program or other advanced graduate program for this field at the appropriate grade level. or
For those who have completed any master's or higher degree or other advanced graduate program, not described in 603 CMR 7.04 (2) (b) 5, b, in an accredited college or university, the completion of 12 credits of graduate level courses in the academic discipline appropriate to the instructional field of the Professional license sought; these may include credits earned prior to application for the license. or
Completion of a Department-sponsored Performance Assessment Program for this field at the appropriate grade level.
https://www4.doemass.org/elar/licensure ... .next=next (https://www4.doemass.org/elar/licensurehelp/LicenseRequirementsCriteriaPostControl.ser?COMMAND.next=next)
Again, none of this "academic discussion" changes the fact that none of ASR's teachers hold licenses! Ha, ha, ha...
Now quit yer cryin' and face the facts!
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I dont believe you. Post her name and licensed number here on fornits so we can verify you are telling the truth.
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Aww.... Don't cry and change the subject! My credibility isn't an issue, yours and ASR's are! Ha, ha, ha...
You claimed licensed teachers, now back it up! Their names have already been published by ASR (get mad at them for putting it out there, not me!), so just prove what you're saying by linking their license numbers to their names!
I'll be waiting for your proof! Thanks! Ha, ha, ha...
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The guest just provided a link to the requirements which shows you dont need a Masters degree to teach in Massachusetts. You were proven wrong, again. You seem to be the one upset.
ASR has licensed teachers, we have called and verified. If you have evidence to the contrary, please provide it.
It appears ASR is in good standing with the state because there are no complaints against them.
These are the facts, there has been no evidence to the contrary.
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AnonWho:
You need a lesson in debate and philosophy. It's never a requirement to prove a negative! I would think someone who claims a college education should know that! Ha, ha, ha...
However, you are unable to provide a shred of evidence to support your claim, other than "I called ASR" :roll: For shame, holding out an alleged call to a non-verifiable source as "proof" - you wouldn't do well in court, sir!
Anyway, as was said before, and as posted above, the rules for licensure are clear and the state maintains the databse of licensed teachers, and none of ASR's teachers are licensed!
Like I said, if you have objectively verifiable evidence, just post it and I'll concede the point. If you really want me to stop saying ASR has only unlicensed teachers on their payroll simply provide their license numbers!
I'll be waiting for your next evasion and be ready to help you refocus! Take your ritilin, finish your morning scotch and post the license numbers! Ha, ha, ha...
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You need a lesson in debate and philosophy. It's never a requirement to prove a negative!
Yes it is , If you make the claim.
Let me give you an example: (I have a suspicion who you are and may not understand the logic, but here goes)
Say, you stated that every teacher in the town of Newton Massachusetts were unlicensed. The onus isn’t on me to prove you wrong and do research on every teacher. You will have to back up your claims or abandon them.
The same with ASR. They are a high school in Massachusetts, they give out diplomas like any other high school. If someone feels they have no licensed teachers they need to provide that information. I am not even sure why anyone would make up such a story to begin with. It is unfounded and a smear against the school.
I have provided numbers for the parents to call to verify this, there is no reason to convince each other
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AnonWho:
You need a lesson in debate and philosophy. It's never a requirement to prove a negative! I would think someone who claims a college education should know that! Ha, ha, ha...
However, you are unable to provide a shred of evidence to support your claim, other than "I called ASR" :roll: For shame, holding out an alleged call to a non-verifiable source as "proof" - you wouldn't do well in court, sir!
Anyway, as was said before, and as posted above, the rules for licensure are clear and the state maintains the databse of licensed teachers, and none of ASR's teachers are licensed!
Like I said, you won't because you [/i]can't[/i]!
Demanding proof of a negative is a logical fallacy. Back to school for you! Ha, ha, ha...
Like I said, if you have objectively verifiable evidence, just post it and I'll concede the point. If you really want me to stop saying ASR has only unlicensed teachers on their payroll simply provide their license numbers!
I'll be waiting for your next evasion and be ready to help you refocus! Take your ritilin, finish your morning scotch and post the license numbers! Ha, ha, ha...
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Ooopsie! Caught with your pants down again! Ha, ha, ha...
The fallacy of appealing to lack of proof of the negative is a logical fallacy of the following form:
"X is true because there is no proof that X is false."
It is asserted that a proposition is true, only because it has not been proven false.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :D :D :D
Back to (an accredited :wink: ) school for you!
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Now this is interesting.
ASR never applied for this status and therefore the laws and regulations beyond this do not apply. So they are classified, by the state, as a Special ed school. But never sought approval in order to receive public funding because they want to stay private. Call the number above.
There's TheWho verifying ASR was never approved as a special education program. Yet when I look at the ASR website it had this to say.
The School operates under the approval of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts Department of Education through the Mohawk Trails Regional School District, and is a candidate for accreditation through the New England Association of Schools and Colleges.
Now how can they be approved and not approved at the same time? Let me guess, a hybrid? Or perhaps ASR is lying to the parents about the fact they were never approved as anything.
Thanks for your help in exposing this Cindy. Youve finally contributed something.
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ASR teachers
DuBois, Dan
Perry, Eve
Towles, Michelle
Onafowokan, Abi
VanderHeld, David
Allen, D. Keller
Lahoski, Jennifer
Wolk, Joshua
Wallender, Jon
Williams, Greg
And there we have it. All the teachers at ASR. It appears that several of them do have their Masters. The question now becomes are any of them licensed?
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Yes, but the truth can be heard thru one phone call. I called and the teachers are licensed, as thewho said. Also the school is in good standing with the state. No violations or complaints.
http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/home.asp?m ... t=2&o=2588 (http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/home.asp?mode=o&ot=2&o=2588)
Cindy why are you talking about yourself in the third person again? Get help for this soon. I think your MPD is really starting to become a major issue.
As to your other personalities claim it is again erroneus. Perhaps youve read the article thats been posted here a few times? The one which details complaints that were made against ASR to the state.
Read up on it and then get back to us.
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ASR teachers
DuBois, Dan
Perry, Eve
Towles, Michelle
Onafowokan, Abi
VanderHeld, David
Allen, D. Keller
Lahoski, Jennifer
Wolk, Joshua
Wallender, Jon
Williams, Greg
And there we have it. All the teachers at ASR. It appears that several of them do have their Masters. The question now becomes are any of them licensed?
Don't forget the masters degrees must be in the subject being taught. I don't believe that's the case with any of these people, but you'd need to verify through the ASR website. For example, one has an engineering degree and teaches math. This is disallowed under licensure rules.
Also, ASR does not appear in the MTRSD Comprehensive Report for 2007 so it appears they aren't any longer affiliated.
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It took everyone long enough to get to this point (its like going 10 miles to get to the end of a 1 mile road), but many people tried to take us off topic.
We had to go thru the same thing to settle the fact that ASR has licensed counselors, so here we are again.
So lets conclude:
The School operates under the approval of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts Department of Education through the Mohawk Trails Regional School District, and is a candidate for accreditation through the New England Association of Schools and Colleges.
So their school is approved by the state as a high school as mention above. Part of the approval process is to verify, as a minimum, that the educators meet standards, which they do if approval was given. They are able to give out diplomas and 100% the children who graduate from ASR move on to the college of their choice. Pretty impressive statistics.
So as far as the state is concerned ASR is meeting or exceeding all the requirements put before them. If anyone suspects a teacher is not suitable for their position a complaint should be filed with the DOE and they will follow-up.
Presently there are no complaints against ASR.
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TheWho said:
"So their school is approved by the state as a high school as mention above. Part of the approval process is to verify, as a minimum, that the educators meet standards, which they do if approval was given. They are able to give out diplomas..."
Actually, the state classifies them as a "special Education School," not a "high school," and they are not on the approved list. In fact, they're the only Special Education School in the entire state that remains unapproved! Nce try though, ha, ha, ha...
See ASR's unapproved status here:
http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/home.asp?m ... t=2&o=2588 (http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/home.asp?mode=o&view=&mcasyear=2006&ot=2&o=2588)
As far as diplomas are concerned, anyone can give one out! But the fact is that ASR is an unaccredited school and is legally barred from issuing state diplomas.
Can you smell the desperation???
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And they no longer appear in the Mohawk Trails Regional School District's Comprehensive Report for 2007, so it looks as if that "affiliation" has been terminated...
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Thewho is right. The link you provided shows clearly that ASR teaches grades 9, 10 , 11 and 12 just like any other high school in the state.
http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/home.asp?m ... t=2&o=2588 (http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/home.asp?mode=o&view=&mcasyear=2006&ot=2&o=2588)
Look at the bottom where the State of Massachusetts states what grades are offered. Last time I checked grades 9 thru 12 was considred high school.
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Well, since you are TheWho, it seems silly to refer to yourself in the third person, ha, ha, ha, but it's informative to know you need to pretend to be multiple people (or, is it as RB said and you have MPD, or as Cassandra said, and you are just an extremely heavy drinker? :wink: ).
But, whatever. No matter. Since ASR claims to teach 9, 10, 11, and 12 then I guess I can accept your claim that they are an Unapproved Special Education High School, even though the state just calls them an "Unapproved Special Education School".
http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/home.asp?m ... t=2&o=2588 (http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/home.asp?mode=o&view=&mcasyear=2006&ot=2&o=2588)
Glad we got that settled! Ha, ha, ha...
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Finally we all agree.....yea!!!!
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So their school is approved by the state as a high school as mention above. Part of the approval process is to verify, as a minimum, that the educators meet standards, which they do if approval was given.
Taking credit for other peoples work again Who? Maybe if you worked harder and did your own work you'd be able to better remember your own statements.
ASR never applied for this status and therefore the laws and regulations beyond this do not apply. So they are classified, by the state, as a Special ed school. But never sought approval in order to receive public funding because they want to stay private. Call the number above.
So tell us Who, how are you claiming they were both approved and unapproved?
They are able to give out diplomas and 100% the children who graduate from ASR move on to the college of their choice. Pretty impressive statistics.
Yet you still cant explain why many of the schools listed on thier college acceptance page arent shown as first choices. Nor can you respond to the fact that they cant hand out valid diplomas since they arent recognized as a school by anyone but you. I guess in your mind since they should be allowed to break the law none of those facts matter.
So as far as the state is concerned ASR is meeting or exceeding all the requirements put before them.
Then why didnt they approve them as a Special Education School?
If anyone suspects a teacher is not suitable for their position a complaint should be filed with the DOE and they will follow-up.
Presently there are no complaints against ASR.
So you still havent looked at the article detailing all those complaints against ASR?
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Well, since you are TheWho, it seems silly to refer to yourself in the third person, ha, ha, ha, but it's informative to know I want you to pretend to be multiple people (or, is it as RB said and you have MPD, or as Cassandra said, and you are just an extremely heavy drinker? :wink: ).
But, whatever. No matter. Since ASR claims to teach 9, 10, 11, and 12 then I guess I can accept your claim that they are an Unapproved Special Education High School, even though the state just calls them an "Unapproved Special Education School".
http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/home.asp?m ... t=2&o=2588 (http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/home.asp?mode=o&view=&mcasyear=2006&ot=2&o=2588)
Glad we got that settled! Ha, ha, ha...
bump!
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Well, why don’t we accept them for what they are "Half Truths"...Ha,Ha,Ha,... Let’s sharpen our pencils a little and add some more facts:
1. ASR has been operating this way for a decade with full sanction from the State of Massachusetts and are sanctioned to hand out high school diplomas.
Yes, let's sharpen our pencils, shall we.
TheWho has stated before that ASR is unaccredited and can't issue diplomas.
This is where he proves himself to be a liar in the above post:
The facts are that ASR is unaccredited and cannot legally issue a diploma in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.
No one is doubting this, but it is not the end of the world for many parents. If their child isnt going to school anyway maybe it is number 4 or 5 on their list. If ASR meets needs 1, 2 and 3 then it could be a good fit for their child. If number 1 is academics then I would suggest looking at another school, thats all.
I am a firm believer that it is what it is, why hide anything?
I dunno, why hide anything? Caught you AGAIN with two opposite and mutually exclusive statements. What a LOSER!
See parents? Here TheWho admits ASR can't issue diplomas, but now he's claiming they can issue STATE diplomas! What a LIAR!
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Sorry about the last post Thewho, but I could not resist changing the wording around on you. I would log-in, but then everyone would know who I was.
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Sorry about the last post Thewho, but I could not resist changing the wording around on you. I would log-in, but then everyone would know who I was.
Its fine, but all you are doing is hurting your own credibility. Why not just discuss the issues straight up instead of resorting to trying to discredit the other person.
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Well, why don’t we accept them for what they are "Half Truths"...Ha,Ha,Ha,... Let’s sharpen our pencils a little and add some more facts:
1. ASR has been operating this way for a decade with full sanction from the State of Massachusetts and are sanctioned to hand out high school diplomas.
Yes, let's sharpen our pencils, shall we.
TheWho has stated before that ASR is unaccredited and can't issue diplomas.
This is where he proves himself to be a liar in the above post:
The facts are that ASR is unaccredited and cannot legally issue a diploma in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.
No one is doubting this, but it is not the end of the world for many parents. If their child isnt going to school anyway maybe it is number 4 or 5 on their list. If ASR meets needs 1, 2 and 3 then it could be a good fit for their child. If number 1 is academics then I would suggest looking at another school, thats all.
I am a firm believer that it is what it is, why hide anything?
I dunno, why hide anything? Caught you AGAIN with two opposite and mutually exclusive statements. What a LOSER!
See parents? Here TheWho admits ASR can't issue diplomas, but now he's claiming they can issue STATE diplomas! What a LIAR!
Here's the link, douchbag! Ha, ha, ha... Can't go back and change it now that it's been quoted! People see right through your pathetic postings and your pathetic life, ha, ha, ha...
Link to Original Post right here, folks:
http://fornits.com/wwf/posting.php?mode=quote&p=163520 (http://fornits.com/wwf/posting.php?mode=quote&p=163520)
Gotta love that kind of desperation and how it just ruins TheWho's phonied-up "reputation" ha, ha, ha...
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Deborah, you are a liar. You know you deleted and altered my posts and allowed others to use them as mis quotes.
I have no way of proving this because I am on this side of the database, but you have zero integrity when you use your moderating power this way.
I asked that you stop doing this.... I have no way of fighting it or you.
To The Who,
I don't know you, though I have read your posts on occasion.
As to your assertion that Deborah is a liar: I used to post at this site. Now I only check it to get information or to find information. For this at least it is useful, by the way, specifically in terms of current hysteria, myths and rumors about various TBS's.
I stopped posting here because my posts were also altered, I can't prove by whom, but certainly not by me. Many times. And in hideous ways.
No interest at all in getting into a big fight with the regulars here: I know when I'm dealing with people who are beyond reason. Very likely this post will get at least some of them all frantic and perhaps start up their little schtick about me being something akin to the Great Satan.
And they will refer back to posts I never wrote to prove it.
Nobody cares much I don't think, least of all me. But to the Who: when I stumbled onto your post as quoted previously, I thought I'd just go ahead and validate the fact that these kinds of things do happen here. Don't let anyone convince you differently.
Which is why nobody (out side of the groupthink crew that you're, for some reason, trying to civilize) cares about this site except as a source of incidental info.
Or counts it as being relevant to anything.
Ottawa
Thank you, Ottawa, for validating what is happening here. It is tough being one against many....especially when they are holding all the cards and can change your words and then turn them against you.
Tough crowd here!!
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Well, why don’t we accept them for what they are "Half Truths"...Ha,Ha,Ha,... Let’s sharpen our pencils a little and add some more facts:
1. ASR has been operating this way for a decade with full sanction from the State of Massachusetts and are sanctioned to hand out high school diplomas.
Yes, let's sharpen our pencils, shall we.
TheWho has stated before that ASR is unaccredited and can't issue diplomas.
This is where he proves himself to be a liar in the above post:
The facts are that ASR is unaccredited and cannot legally issue a diploma in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.
No one is doubting this, but it is not the end of the world for many parents. If their child isnt going to school anyway maybe it is number 4 or 5 on their list. If ASR meets needs 1, 2 and 3 then it could be a good fit for their child. If number 1 is academics then I would suggest looking at another school, thats all.
I am a firm believer that it is what it is, why hide anything?
I dunno, why hide anything? Caught you AGAIN with two opposite and mutually exclusive statements. What a LOSER!
See parents? Here TheWho admits ASR can't issue diplomas, but now he's claiming they can issue STATE diplomas! What a LIAR!
Here's the link, douchbag! Ha, ha, ha... Can't go back and change it now that it's been quoted! People see right through your pathetic postings and your pathetic life, ha, ha, ha...
Link to Original Post right here, folks:
http://fornits.com/wwf/posting.php?mode=quote&p=163520 (http://fornits.com/wwf/posting.php?mode=quote&p=163520)
Gotta love that kind of desperation and how it just ruins TheWho's phonied-up "reputation" ha, ha, ha...
Can't hide from your own posts ha, ha, ha...
Caught outright lying again complete with links to original, unedited posts. Somebody's a wittle cwybaby ha, ha, ha :cry2:
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We are providing links now,,Thank you !! Were they altered before or after? Ha,Ha,Ha,
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=258535#258535 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=258535#258535)
To The Who,
I don't know you, though I have read your posts on occasion.
As to your assertion that Deborah is a liar: I used to post at this site. Now I only check it to get information or to find information. For this at least it is useful, by the way, specifically in terms of current hysteria, myths and rumors about various TBS's.
I stopped posting here because my posts were also altered, I can't prove by whom, but certainly not by me. Many times. And in hideous ways.
No interest at all in getting into a big fight with the regulars here: I know when I'm dealing with people who are beyond reason. Very likely this post will get at least some of them all frantic and perhaps start up their little schtick about me being something akin to the Great Satan.
And they will refer back to posts I never wrote to prove it.
Nobody cares much I don't think, least of all me. But to the Who: when I stumbled onto your post as quoted previously, I thought I'd just go ahead and validate the fact that these kinds of things do happen here. Don't let anyone convince you differently.
Which is why nobody (out side of the groupthink crew that you're, for some reason, trying to civilize) cares about this site except as a source of incidental info.
Or counts it as being relevant to anything.
Ottawa
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Well, why don’t we accept them for what they are "Half Truths"...Ha,Ha,Ha,... Let’s sharpen our pencils a little and add some more facts:
1. ASR has been operating this way for a decade with full sanction from the State of Massachusetts and are sanctioned to hand out high school diplomas.
Yes, let's sharpen our pencils, shall we.
TheWho has stated before that ASR is unaccredited and can't issue diplomas.
This is where he proves himself to be a liar in the above post:
The facts are that ASR is unaccredited and cannot legally issue a diploma in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.
No one is doubting this, but it is not the end of the world for many parents. If their child isnt going to school anyway maybe it is number 4 or 5 on their list. If ASR meets needs 1, 2 and 3 then it could be a good fit for their child. If number 1 is academics then I would suggest looking at another school, thats all.
I am a firm believer that it is what it is, why hide anything?
I dunno, why hide anything? Caught you AGAIN with two opposite and mutually exclusive statements. What a LOSER!
See parents? Here TheWho admits ASR can't issue diplomas, but now he's claiming they can issue STATE diplomas! What a LIAR!
Here's the link, douchbag! Ha, ha, ha... Can't go back and change it now that it's been quoted! People see right through your pathetic postings and your pathetic life, ha, ha, ha...
Link to Original Post right here, folks:
http://fornits.com/wwf/posting.php?mode=quote&p=163520 (http://fornits.com/wwf/posting.php?mode=quote&p=163520)
Gotta love that kind of desperation and how it just ruins TheWho's phonied-up "reputation" ha, ha, ha...
Back to the topic! Even TheWho admits ASR can't issue state diplomas and that he wasn't being truthful when he recently stated it could. Please, review his original links (BTW, the OP was unedited, but I bet it will show an edit from today by TheWho!).
ASR is unaccredited and canot issue state diplomas. TheWho admitted this here:
http://fornits.com/wwf/posting.php?mode=quote&p=163520 (http://fornits.com/wwf/posting.php?mode=quote&p=163520)
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Thread with TheWho's original post admitting ASR can't issue diplomas:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t= ... &start=140 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=2826&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=140)
What a liar!
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We are providing links now,,Thank you !! Were they altered before or after? Ha,Ha,Ha,
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=258535#258535 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=258535#258535)
To The Who,
I don't know you, though I have read your posts on occasion.
As to your assertion that Deborah is a liar: I used to post at this site. Now I only check it to get information or to find information. For this at least it is useful, by the way, specifically in terms of current hysteria, myths and rumors about various TBS's.
I stopped posting here because my posts were also altered, I can't prove by whom, but certainly not by me. Many times. And in hideous ways.
No interest at all in getting into a big fight with the regulars here: I know when I'm dealing with people who are beyond reason. Very likely this post will get at least some of them all frantic and perhaps start up their little schtick about me being something akin to the Great Satan.
And they will refer back to posts I never wrote to prove it.
Nobody cares much I don't think, least of all me. But to the Who: when I stumbled onto your post as quoted previously, I thought I'd just go ahead and validate the fact that these kinds of things do happen here. Don't let anyone convince you differently.
Which is why nobody (out side of the groupthink crew that you're, for some reason, trying to civilize) cares about this site except as a source of incidental info.
Or counts it as being relevant to anything.
Ottawa
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So in response to you being caught once again lying and making a complete ass out of yourself, you chose to edit your own post and then argue with yourself about it.
Cindy youre an idiot. Everytime you think somehow it'll be different, this time youll get away with it. But you never do.
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So in response to you being caught once again lying and making a complete ass out of yourself, you chose to edit your own post and then argue with yourself about it.
Cindy youre an idiot. Everytime you think somehow it'll be different, this time youll get away with it. But you never do.
You are talking nonsense again, get some sleep Devon.
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It's not nonsense when I'm right Cindy. It's funny to watch you make such an effort at being subtle and sneaky only to be outed each and every time.
One can just imagine you furious at being made the fool again, and certain that this time when you post anonmously, no one will no it's really you.
But we do Cindy, each and every time.
:rofl:
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If only you knew who had the last laugh, Devon....Ha,Ha,Ha
have a good night.
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Us Cindy, after all you've nothing to laugh at.
:D
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Some info on a Mass "TBS" that is properly licensed by OCS and approved by DoE.
ASR isn't qualified to carry this school's garbage cans...
Chamberlain and ASR are both classified identically by the DoE, but ASR can't pass DoE standards for approval, as they have unqualified unlicensed teachers.
See what DoE says about a real school, Chamberlain:
The Massachusetts Department of Education recently completed an evaluation of the Frederic L. Chamberlain School. The following are excerpts from their review:
"The review team would like to commend the following features of the school that were brought to the attention of the team and that the team believes have a significant and positive impact on the delivery of educational services for student enrolled at Frederic L. Chamberlain School. These features are as follows:"
The dedication and caring staff displayed for the students in the school was evident throughout the review through staff interviews, parent interviews and observations.
The New England buildings allow for a home-like atmosphere and with numerous personal touches, it is evident that there is a lot of pride in the school.
The curriculum offered to the students is a full continuum across all academic subjects.
The elective available for students to participate are wide and varied. They include: golf, tennis, art, track, music, horseback riding, dance, gardening, and creative writing.
... a clinical focus for the students which is so important in meeting their overall health needs. Parents report feeling very connected through the clinicians who are easily accessible and provide useful resources...
There are two laptop classrooms which truly are state-of-the-art.
The psychiatry clinic offered on site allows for two psychiatrists to be on the school premises for a total of three and a half days per week.
...overall safety and well-being of the students is of top priority for the administration.
...students were being challenged at their own level and that the curriculum was being modified for many of the students...
And they're properly licensed by DoE and the Office of Childcare Services:
Credentials
F. L. Chamberlain School is licensed by the
Massachusetts Office of Childcare services
and approved by the Massachusetts
Department of Education. The school is a
long standing member of the Massachusetts
Association of Approved Private Schools
and the National Association of Private
Schools for Exceptional Children.
If this school can get licensed properly and employ licensed teachers, it seems the only reason ASR won't is because they don't care enough about the kids to do the work or pay the money. Obviously this school offers much higher quality of care and education than ASR and still meets all licensing and oversight commitments. In fact, it exceeds all of them! ASR is far below all of the standards.
ASR can't claim anything like this or even issue a state diploma because it's unaccredited. What a shame ASR chooses to short-change families to increase profit. Very sad and embarrassing for them. :oops: :(
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:lol:
So would you have spoken out about what happened to you when you first graduated from ASR?
Why speak now? From what I am gathering your opinion is less than flattering.
Well actually, a while back in the big ASR thread that turned out into an all out war, I posted a few times.
I was so confused when I came out I really can't tell you. There were times that I would get really angry about it and others when the "ASR brain wash effect" came out.
I became interested again because I've recently come across people who I went to ASR with. (only one of whom seems to be doing ok)
ASR is no different than any of the other mindrape mills. It's like taking an egg scrambler to your psyche.
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J
He had two major depressions by the time he was 14; he was a ?different? and musically gifted child who was bullied. As a defense, he started dressing like a Goth and hanging out with Goths?he had a lot of suicidal ideation. The public high school would not keep him because of his suicidal talk and when he got to the ER, he denied suicidal ideation. It was a mess and I wanted him supervised 24/7 BUT not in a hospital short term because he had long-term problems that he needed time to address. Someone in the posts above suggested a ?regular? boarding school?none would have taken a Goth who talked about the desirability of dying ASAP. He only actually made one weak suicidal gesture, but I take this risk VERY seriously in a teen with major depression.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t= ... c&start=60 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=15260&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60)
There were more kids who were dangers to themselves. I honestly think ASR is very lucky in that no one has succeeded in committing suicide. I can tell you first hand that for someone with major depression ASR could drive you past breaking point easily. It seemed like they pick and chose who they took seriously about being suicidal. I was not taken seriously, and had my roommate not been in the room one day, I may well have taken my life. I do not say that to evoke pity or anything else like that, and I was not using it to "manipulate" ( a favorite ASR term)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t= ... c&start=60 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=15260&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60)
Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
1) What is self-study?
2) Describe this Escorting more please?
3) Why was a student doing the escorting of a self-harming/suicidal resident and not a staff member?
A self study was the worst of the three major consequences. (reflection, challenge, self study). You had work projects, all free time was spent at your table, facing the wall. Lots of writing assignments. Loss of all privileges. Standing during all meetings. You most likely had strict bans
Basically I had to take her back to the dorm and be with her while she gathered up her things and changed, etc. I don't remember if she showered or not. I was basically there to make sure she didn't attempt again.
I don't know why they had me do it. I was "trusted" at that point, and honestly... probably a better choice than some of the staff.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t= ... r&start=15 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=2826&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=asr&start=15)
yes, they did. to a large degree. Dean Kent (the staff mentioned in the article) was gone by the time i had arrived. (he was there in 1997, and i got to ASR in Cummington, MA on January 5th of 1998) i had heard from other students about Dean, that he was a really nice guy but fired b/c he'd called DSS on them. Brett Carey was still the Dean of Student Life when i arrived, and his wife Lisa also helped in the fitness department & was pregnant when i first arrived. They had 2 other daughters, Madison & Carly. The whole thought was a bit frightening, because when we had the 2 hour group "therapy" sessions 2 times a week, they were harsh and abusive to say the least. All of us students would be split into 2 groups, and we'd be rounded up in a circle to get screamed at, belittled and dehumanized. They called it "confrontational", although it was more like verbal abuse and intentional slaughtering.
i was very afraid while i was there, as a student with an extensive sexual abuse history involving rape & incest, i was constantly the target of this slaughtering, esp. b/c i was overweight at the time. needless to say, i left ASR with anorexia some 19 months later.
Brett & other students were all allowed to scream vulgarities at you, called you a "fat bitch, slut," and all. at the age of 15 i learned the word "dildo" while playing scrabble with Brett. One of my roomates claimed that Brett had forced her into sexual operations.
Most of all, it was excusable for students to haze each other.
It was almost looked at as funny. One Staff named Kristen Merhoff gave me funny looks and made sarcastic and patronizing comments when i'd opened up to her about my eating disorder.
Later on, a staff named Amy Robichaud would scream at me for ruining my life, pushing everyone away, talking about how i was a disasterous person, unworthy of being loved. To say the least, she was an abusive person, much alike a person in the throws of an addiction like alchoholism & drug addictions, both of which she admittedly had. There was a great deal of favoritism there, even staff who seemed to want to gain the approval of certain students.
The labor & sleep deprivation that was mentioned in the article is most likely in reference to the "Lifesteps". These were so called "workshops" it was mandatory for all students to attend. Staff and students would be expected to open up there deepest and most unknown
secrets for the sake of "growing". It's true, there was little sleeping allowed & often i myself left feeling shamed & ridiculed.
i was one of the main targets in that school the entire time i was there, a target of hazing & was even blamed for a student breaking into the med office and comsuming large quantities of my prescriptions. For the first 5 months i was there, you could litterally leave, go smoke 1/2 a pack of cigarettes, drop a couple tabs of acid, take like 5 hits off a joint come back & they wouldn't even realize it.
ASR is, to say the least, a very very fucked up place. i have several more things to say, but this whole thing would take eons.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t= ... r&start=30 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=2826&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=asr&start=30)
I am a former student at ASR. I was in the first peer group, 97-98. My experience there haunts me to this day. I have read many articles that refer to the "old staff" and "new staff". I cannot speak for the way ASR is run now, being 2004, but I can speak for how it was run in 97 and 98. Let me start by saying that I am not an angry, defiant kid who is trying to start trouble for ASR. I have graduated high school and am about to graduate college and enter law school. I don't get into trouble, I am a productive member of society, and want people to know the truth. We were badgered, belittled, sworn at, made to stay up all night during "life steps" and given only small rations of food, had all calls to our parents monitored by staff and had the phone hung up on us if we tried to complain to our parents about these things, scrutinized and humiliated on a daily basis. Our mail was read, staff lost their voices by yelling so loudly at us, I personally was called a "slut", a rich little Daddysgirl, a doormat, told my dad tried to buy my love with money, made to discuss personal sexual and private experiences in group sessions with other peers, made to write a ten page paper by hand about what my "issues" were, and if the staff didn't like it, I started over ( this was because I was too close to my friend there, and they put us on bans so we couldn't talk to each other). People, whomever wants to hear specific stories about all of these things, I would be more than happy to share with you!!! email me at [email protected] (http://mailto:[email protected]) i bet i can help you get her out of there
I also graduated from ASR very recently on August the 6th. And I can tell you right now that any kid who complained, their parents were manipulated right out of believing them. There was extreme emotional abuse there, and the only reason anyone's behavior was modified was because they were scared shitless of staying there longer or going to a worse program. We were so scared, your own friends turned against you and you couldnt trust them. The group sessions were awful. One of my friends who had issues with sleeping around was in group and the counselor in the room told her that she might as well keep a mattress tied to her back. Daily, I heard awful things about myself and everyday I was just so sad. Places like this are awful and they need to be stopped. ASR isnt even the worst of them but they all need to go.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t= ... r&start=60 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=2826&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=asr&start=60)
I am a an ASR graduate. I graduated in October of 03. At the end of the program I believed that ASR had done a lot for me. Looking back I am shocked that I ever thought that. I was made to turn against my friends and turn them in for the slightest rule breaking (for example listening to music). In group we were often degraded and yelled at, supposedly to make us better. Several times I was suicidal and instead of worrying they told me I was lying and being manipulative. In one group eveyone was allowed to go around and say their judgements against everyone else things like "youre a fat slut". That group was horrible. You were scared into being good and behaving. I'm not sure why I thought this place was so great, I feel as if I was brainwashed in a way.
The wilderness experience was horrible. I spent over 40 days in the outdoors being punished for any little thing we did wrong. My first day I had to run 20 minutes and when I stopped the counselers screamed at me and when i vomited they didnt care. just told me i shouldt have drank so muich water.
[
Bump.
Thanks for finding it anon.
:wink:
The above is essentially no different from Straight or the others. Sure there are some superficial differences, but not the kind that matter. The heart of Synanon's 'Therapeutic Community" approach and "The Game" beat in all of them.
-
J
He had two major depressions by the time he was 14; he was a ?different? and musically gifted child who was bullied. As a defense, he started dressing like a Goth and hanging out with Goths?he had a lot of suicidal ideation. The public high school would not keep him because of his suicidal talk and when he got to the ER, he denied suicidal ideation. It was a mess and I wanted him supervised 24/7 BUT not in a hospital short term because he had long-term problems that he needed time to address. Someone in the posts above suggested a ?regular? boarding school?none would have taken a Goth who talked about the desirability of dying ASAP. He only actually made one weak suicidal gesture, but I take this risk VERY seriously in a teen with major depression.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t= ... c&start=60 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=15260&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60)
There were more kids who were dangers to themselves. I honestly think ASR is very lucky in that no one has succeeded in committing suicide. I can tell you first hand that for someone with major depression ASR could drive you past breaking point easily. It seemed like they pick and chose who they took seriously about being suicidal. I was not taken seriously, and had my roommate not been in the room one day, I may well have taken my life. I do not say that to evoke pity or anything else like that, and I was not using it to "manipulate" ( a favorite ASR term)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t= ... c&start=60 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=15260&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60)
Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
1) What is self-study?
2) Describe this Escorting more please?
3) Why was a student doing the escorting of a self-harming/suicidal resident and not a staff member?
A self study was the worst of the three major consequences. (reflection, challenge, self study). You had work projects, all free time was spent at your table, facing the wall. Lots of writing assignments. Loss of all privileges. Standing during all meetings. You most likely had strict bans
Basically I had to take her back to the dorm and be with her while she gathered up her things and changed, etc. I don't remember if she showered or not. I was basically there to make sure she didn't attempt again.
I don't know why they had me do it. I was "trusted" at that point, and honestly... probably a better choice than some of the staff.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t= ... r&start=15 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=2826&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=asr&start=15)
yes, they did. to a large degree. Dean Kent (the staff mentioned in the article) was gone by the time i had arrived. (he was there in 1997, and i got to ASR in Cummington, MA on January 5th of 1998) i had heard from other students about Dean, that he was a really nice guy but fired b/c he'd called DSS on them. Brett Carey was still the Dean of Student Life when i arrived, and his wife Lisa also helped in the fitness department & was pregnant when i first arrived. They had 2 other daughters, Madison & Carly. The whole thought was a bit frightening, because when we had the 2 hour group "therapy" sessions 2 times a week, they were harsh and abusive to say the least. All of us students would be split into 2 groups, and we'd be rounded up in a circle to get screamed at, belittled and dehumanized. They called it "confrontational", although it was more like verbal abuse and intentional slaughtering.
i was very afraid while i was there, as a student with an extensive sexual abuse history involving rape & incest, i was constantly the target of this slaughtering, esp. b/c i was overweight at the time. needless to say, i left ASR with anorexia some 19 months later.
Brett & other students were all allowed to scream vulgarities at you, called you a "fat bitch, slut," and all. at the age of 15 i learned the word "dildo" while playing scrabble with Brett. One of my roomates claimed that Brett had forced her into sexual operations.
Most of all, it was excusable for students to haze each other.
It was almost looked at as funny. One Staff named Kristen Merhoff gave me funny looks and made sarcastic and patronizing comments when i'd opened up to her about my eating disorder.
Later on, a staff named Amy Robichaud would scream at me for ruining my life, pushing everyone away, talking about how i was a disasterous person, unworthy of being loved. To say the least, she was an abusive person, much alike a person in the throws of an addiction like alchoholism & drug addictions, both of which she admittedly had. There was a great deal of favoritism there, even staff who seemed to want to gain the approval of certain students.
The labor & sleep deprivation that was mentioned in the article is most likely in reference to the "Lifesteps". These were so called "workshops" it was mandatory for all students to attend. Staff and students would be expected to open up there deepest and most unknown
secrets for the sake of "growing". It's true, there was little sleeping allowed & often i myself left feeling shamed & ridiculed.
i was one of the main targets in that school the entire time i was there, a target of hazing & was even blamed for a student breaking into the med office and comsuming large quantities of my prescriptions. For the first 5 months i was there, you could litterally leave, go smoke 1/2 a pack of cigarettes, drop a couple tabs of acid, take like 5 hits off a joint come back & they wouldn't even realize it.
ASR is, to say the least, a very very fucked up place. i have several more things to say, but this whole thing would take eons.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t= ... r&start=30 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=2826&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=asr&start=30)
I am a former student at ASR. I was in the first peer group, 97-98. My experience there haunts me to this day. I have read many articles that refer to the "old staff" and "new staff". I cannot speak for the way ASR is run now, being 2004, but I can speak for how it was run in 97 and 98. Let me start by saying that I am not an angry, defiant kid who is trying to start trouble for ASR. I have graduated high school and am about to graduate college and enter law school. I don't get into trouble, I am a productive member of society, and want people to know the truth. We were badgered, belittled, sworn at, made to stay up all night during "life steps" and given only small rations of food, had all calls to our parents monitored by staff and had the phone hung up on us if we tried to complain to our parents about these things, scrutinized and humiliated on a daily basis. Our mail was read, staff lost their voices by yelling so loudly at us, I personally was called a "slut", a rich little Daddysgirl, a doormat, told my dad tried to buy my love with money, made to discuss personal sexual and private experiences in group sessions with other peers, made to write a ten page paper by hand about what my "issues" were, and if the staff didn't like it, I started over ( this was because I was too close to my friend there, and they put us on bans so we couldn't talk to each other). People, whomever wants to hear specific stories about all of these things, I would be more than happy to share with you!!! email me at [email protected] (http://mailto:[email protected]) i bet i can help you get her out of there
I also graduated from ASR very recently on August the 6th. And I can tell you right now that any kid who complained, their parents were manipulated right out of believing them. There was extreme emotional abuse there, and the only reason anyone's behavior was modified was because they were scared shitless of staying there longer or going to a worse program. We were so scared, your own friends turned against you and you couldnt trust them. The group sessions were awful. One of my friends who had issues with sleeping around was in group and the counselor in the room told her that she might as well keep a mattress tied to her back. Daily, I heard awful things about myself and everyday I was just so sad. Places like this are awful and they need to be stopped. ASR isnt even the worst of them but they all need to go.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t= ... r&start=60 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=2826&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=asr&start=60)
I am a an ASR graduate. I graduated in October of 03. At the end of the program I believed that ASR had done a lot for me. Looking back I am shocked that I ever thought that. I was made to turn against my friends and turn them in for the slightest rule breaking (for example listening to music). In group we were often degraded and yelled at, supposedly to make us better. Several times I was suicidal and instead of worrying they told me I was lying and being manipulative. In one group eveyone was allowed to go around and say their judgements against everyone else things like "youre a fat slut". That group was horrible. You were scared into being good and behaving. I'm not sure why I thought this place was so great, I feel as if I was brainwashed in a way.
The wilderness experience was horrible. I spent over 40 days in the outdoors being punished for any little thing we did wrong. My first day I had to run 20 minutes and when I stopped the counselers screamed at me and when i vomited they didnt care. just told me i shouldt have drank so muich water.
[
:o :o
-
So this is the type of care that Who is recommending? :o :o
J
He had two major depressions by the time he was 14; he was a ?different? and musically gifted child who was bullied. As a defense, he started dressing like a Goth and hanging out with Goths?he had a lot of suicidal ideation. The public high school would not keep him because of his suicidal talk and when he got to the ER, he denied suicidal ideation. It was a mess and I wanted him supervised 24/7 BUT not in a hospital short term because he had long-term problems that he needed time to address. Someone in the posts above suggested a ?regular? boarding school?none would have taken a Goth who talked about the desirability of dying ASAP. He only actually made one weak suicidal gesture, but I take this risk VERY seriously in a teen with major depression.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t= ... c&start=60 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=15260&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60)
There were more kids who were dangers to themselves. I honestly think ASR is very lucky in that no one has succeeded in committing suicide. I can tell you first hand that for someone with major depression ASR could drive you past breaking point easily. It seemed like they pick and chose who they took seriously about being suicidal. I was not taken seriously, and had my roommate not been in the room one day, I may well have taken my life. I do not say that to evoke pity or anything else like that, and I was not using it to "manipulate" ( a favorite ASR term)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t= ... c&start=60 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=15260&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60)
Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
1) What is self-study?
2) Describe this Escorting more please?
3) Why was a student doing the escorting of a self-harming/suicidal resident and not a staff member?
A self study was the worst of the three major consequences. (reflection, challenge, self study). You had work projects, all free time was spent at your table, facing the wall. Lots of writing assignments. Loss of all privileges. Standing during all meetings. You most likely had strict bans
Basically I had to take her back to the dorm and be with her while she gathered up her things and changed, etc. I don't remember if she showered or not. I was basically there to make sure she didn't attempt again.
I don't know why they had me do it. I was "trusted" at that point, and honestly... probably a better choice than some of the staff.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t= ... r&start=15 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=2826&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=asr&start=15)
yes, they did. to a large degree. Dean Kent (the staff mentioned in the article) was gone by the time i had arrived. (he was there in 1997, and i got to ASR in Cummington, MA on January 5th of 1998) i had heard from other students about Dean, that he was a really nice guy but fired b/c he'd called DSS on them. Brett Carey was still the Dean of Student Life when i arrived, and his wife Lisa also helped in the fitness department & was pregnant when i first arrived. They had 2 other daughters, Madison & Carly. The whole thought was a bit frightening, because when we had the 2 hour group "therapy" sessions 2 times a week, they were harsh and abusive to say the least. All of us students would be split into 2 groups, and we'd be rounded up in a circle to get screamed at, belittled and dehumanized. They called it "confrontational", although it was more like verbal abuse and intentional slaughtering.
i was very afraid while i was there, as a student with an extensive sexual abuse history involving rape & incest, i was constantly the target of this slaughtering, esp. b/c i was overweight at the time. needless to say, i left ASR with anorexia some 19 months later.
Brett & other students were all allowed to scream vulgarities at you, called you a "fat bitch, slut," and all. at the age of 15 i learned the word "dildo" while playing scrabble with Brett. One of my roomates claimed that Brett had forced her into sexual operations.
Most of all, it was excusable for students to haze each other.
It was almost looked at as funny. One Staff named Kristen Merhoff gave me funny looks and made sarcastic and patronizing comments when i'd opened up to her about my eating disorder.
Later on, a staff named Amy Robichaud would scream at me for ruining my life, pushing everyone away, talking about how i was a disasterous person, unworthy of being loved. To say the least, she was an abusive person, much alike a person in the throws of an addiction like alchoholism & drug addictions, both of which she admittedly had. There was a great deal of favoritism there, even staff who seemed to want to gain the approval of certain students.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t= ... r&start=30[/url]
I am a former student at ASR. I was in the first peer group, 97-98. My experience there haunts me to this day. I have read many articles that refer to the "old staff" and "new staff". I cannot speak for the way ASR is run now, being 2004, but I can speak for how it was run in 97 and 98. Let me start by saying that I am not an angry, defiant kid who is trying to start trouble for ASR. I have graduated high school and am about to graduate college and enter law school. I don't get into trouble, I am a productive member of society, and want people to know the truth. [email protected][/url] i bet i can help you get her out of there
I also graduated from ASR very recently on August the 6th. And I can tell you right now that any kid who complained, their parents were manipulated right out of believing them. There was extreme emotional abuse there, and the only reason anyone's behavior was modified was because they were scared shitless of staying there longer or going to a worse program. We were so scared, your own friends turned against you and you couldnt trust them. The group sessions were awful. One of my friends who had issues with sleeping around was in group and the counselor in the room told her that she might as well keep a mattress tied to her back. Daily, I heard awful things about myself and everyday I was just so sad. Places like this are awful and they need to be stopped. ASR isnt even the worst of them but they all need to go.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t= ... r&start=60 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=2826&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=asr&start=60)
I am a an ASR graduate. I graduated in October of 03. At the end of the program I believed that ASR had done a lot for me. Looking back I am shocked that I ever thought that. I was made to turn against my friends and turn them in for the slightest rule breaking (for example listening to music). In group we were often degraded and yelled at, supposedly to make us better. Several times I was suicidal and instead of worrying they told me I was lying and being manipulative. In one group eveyone was allowed to go around and say their judgements against everyone else things like "youre a fat slut". That group was horrible. You were scared into being good and behaving. I'm not sure why I thought this place was so great, I feel as if I was brainwashed in a way.
The wilderness experience was horrible. I spent over 40 days in the outdoors being punished for any little thing we did wrong. My first day I had to run 20 minutes and when I stopped the counselers screamed at me and when i vomited they didnt care. just told me i shouldt have drank so muich water.
-
Yeah, heres another one of his posts and statistics:
I think you will see that after you eliminate the state run hospitals and boot camps the numbers look pretty good.
NCES still has not released their data for 2004-2005 year..... as soon as it becomes availble I will add the figures in.
You can click on the program type to get more detail if needed.[/b]
__________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2000 thru June 2001 -------There were 1,466 Homicides and 1,493 suicides , 2,959 Total
TBS (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249129) ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 1 suicides, ----- 1 Total
Wilderness (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249130) -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 1 suicides, ----- 1 Total
___________________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2001 thru June 2002 -------There were 1,468 Homicides and 1,400 suicides , 2,868 Total
TBS (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249129) ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
Wilderness (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249130) -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
___________________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2002 thru June 2003 -------There were 1,515 Homicides and 1,331 suicides , 2,846 Total
TBS (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249129) ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
Wilderness (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249130) -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
___________________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2003 thru June 2004 -------There were 1,437 Homicides and 1,285 suicides , 2,722 Total
TBS (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249129) ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
Wilderness (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249130) -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
TBS - Therapeutic Boarding Schools
NCES National Center for Education Statistics
CDC -- Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
* - Data found here on fornits, internet news articles (caica.org, isaccorp.org), posts and PM?s.... All deaths are verified thru local news articles.
X -- Incomplete or unavailable
-
I just finished reading most of this topic. I have never been this scared iny life, what was I thinking?, What was I really going to do?
I promise I won't send him now.
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I just finished reading most of this topic. I have never been this scared iny life, what was I thinking?, What was I really going to do?
I promise I won't send him now.
OH HI
WELCOME TO REALITY
ENJOY YOUR STAY
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I just finished reading most of this topic. I have never been this scared iny life, what was I thinking?, What was I really going to do?
I promise I won't send him now.
Good for you Concerned Dad!!!!!!!
Your research is the BEST Christmas present you could have given your son!!!!!!
You are making the right choice by not throwing your child to the wolves!
-
I just finished reading most of this topic. I have never been this scared iny life, what was I thinking?, What was I really going to do?
I promise I won't send him now.
I second that, Good for you, Concerned Dad!! the best thing you can do for your son is to stay involved, read as much as you can about the options availble to him and your family. If you can take some time off and spend one-on-one time with him that would be ideal. Seek local counseling, talk to his teachers, but dont dont give up on him or feel you have failed because he doesnt respond the way you think he should, he is a teen and will choose his own path regardless of what you say or do.
But remember that you are responsible for his safety and if his choices are taking him too far down a path which is unhealthy then you may want to seek more outside help.
...
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...he is a teen and will choose his own path regardless of what you say or do.
Uh, so why bother having him locked up, then? You just admitted the kid will do what he wants anyway. Or are you just saying, "Get him into a program where he can be FORCED to do as you say"?
It gets confusing reading TheWho's posts because he contradicts himself over and over and then lashes out at people who point out his shortcomings. The best advice would be to ignore completely what TheWho says. He's a walking self-contradiction.
-
Uh, so why bother having him locked up, then? You just admitted the kid will do what he wants anyway. Or are you just saying, "Get him into a program where he can be FORCED to do as you say"?
I wouldn’t suggest locking any child up unless they commit a crime, I don’t think we were discussing this. We are not talking about forcing a kid to do as I say, but the programs are highly structured so the child would be expected to wake up at a certain time each day and take meals with the other children, attend classes etc.
It gets confusing reading TheWho's posts because he contradicts himself over and over and then lashes out at people who point out his shortcomings. The best advice would be to ignore completely what TheWho says. He's a walking self-contradiction.
I think the confusion may be on your end. Let me try to clarify it a little for you. When I mention that the child will choose his or her own path I was referring to pursuing a college education vs pursuing a non college career path. If a child wants to become and artist, Engineer or car mechanic I think it is important to support them in their dreams and aspirations. But if the child is at-risk then he/she may have trouble getting on track to attain these goals and a TBS can help to get the child on track and focusing on the right things.
Hope this helps to clear that up.
...
-
Uh, so why bother having him locked up, then? You just admitted the kid will do what he wants anyway. Or are you just saying, "Get him into a program where he can be FORCED to do as you say"?
I wouldn’t suggest locking any child up unless they commit a crime, I don’t think we were discussing this. We are not talking about forcing a kid to do as I say, but the programs are highly structured so the child would be expected to wake up at a certain time each day and take meals with the other children, attend classes etc.
It gets confusing reading TheWho's posts because he contradicts himself over and over and then lashes out at people who point out his shortcomings. The best advice would be to ignore completely what TheWho says. He's a walking self-contradiction.
I think the confusion may be on your end. Let me try to clarify it a little for you. When I mention that the child will choose his or her own path I was referring to pursuing a college education vs pursuing a non college career path. If a child wants to become and artist, Engineer or car mechanic I think it is important to support them in their dreams and aspirations. But if the child is at-risk then he/she may have trouble getting on track to attain these goals and a TBS can help to get the child on track and focusing on the right things.
Hope this helps to clear that up.
...
sure does. If they're not "on-track", send 'em to a bunch of unqualified strangers who use unproven and quite possibly dangerous "therapeutic" methods to get them to conform to what you want.
Got it. Thanks for clearing that up.
-
sure does. If they're not "on-track", send 'em to a bunch of unqualified strangers who use unproven and quite possibly dangerous "therapeutic" methods to get them to conform to what you want.
Got it. Thanks for clearing that up.
I disagree with you here, Anne, you shouldn’t suggest doing that. If you are going to give people advice you shouldn’t be sarcastic, many of these parents have at-risk children at home and are looking for answers or a little information to assist them in helping their child. Sending them to unqualified strangers isn’t going to help anyone.
Lets all try to work together and focus on the kids first, put your anger aside.
...
-
sure does. If they're not "on-track", send 'em to a bunch of unqualified strangers who use unproven and quite possibly dangerous "therapeutic" methods to get them to conform to what you want.
Got it. Thanks for clearing that up.
I disagree with you here, Anne, you shouldn’t suggest doing that. If you are going to give people advice you shouldn’t be sarcastic, many of these parents have at-risk children at home and are looking for answers or a little information to assist them in helping their child. Sending them to unqualified strangers isn’t going to help anyone.
Lets all try to work together and focus on the kids first, put your anger aside.
...
Bite my ass!!!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
-
sure does. If they're not "on-track", send 'em to a bunch of unqualified strangers who use unproven and quite possibly dangerous "therapeutic" methods to get them to conform to what you want.
Got it. Thanks for clearing that up.
I disagree with you here, Anne, you shouldn’t suggest doing that. If you are going to give people advice you shouldn’t be sarcastic, many of these parents have at-risk children at home and are looking for answers or a little information to assist them in helping their child. Sending them to unqualified strangers isn’t going to help anyone.
Lets all try to work together and focus on the kids first, put your anger aside.
...
Bite my ass!!!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Real nice attempt to derail this thread once again.
...
-
Real nice attempt to derail this thread once again.
...
(http://http://www.ehponline.org/docs/2005/113-2/crybaby.jpg)
-
Real nice attempt to derail this thread once again.
...
(http://http://www.ehponline.org/docs/2005/113-2/crybaby.jpg)
hey come on now, dont be upset. I am just trying to keep things on track so I dont take a hit for derailing the thread.
-
sure does. If they're not "on-track", send 'em to a bunch of unqualified strangers who use unproven and quite possibly dangerous "therapeutic" methods to get them to conform to what you want.
Got it. Thanks for clearing that up.
I disagree with you here, Anne, you shouldn’t suggest doing that. If you are going to give people advice you shouldn’t be sarcastic, many of these parents have at-risk children at home and are looking for answers or a little information to assist them in helping their child. Sending them to unqualified strangers isn’t going to help anyone.
Lets all try to work together and focus on the kids first, put your anger aside.
...
Bite my ass!!!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Love to, sweet cheeks! Bare it!
-
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Love to, sweet cheeks! Bare it![/quote]
:D
Already did.
-
Unfortunately the above posts may have been partially authored by, Anne Bonney herself... check the last 3 links. We are trying to clear this up, bear with us.
.
Wrong you fucking liar. I wrote none of that. I responded to them, but did not write, alter, delete or otherwise tamper with ANY of the posts. At all.
-
see, this is how you know who works for bain. he knows well you didn't write them, as when you posted them, they worked. A real parent would'nt straight up lie like that
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see, this is how you know who works for bain. he knows well you didn't write them, as when you posted them, they worked. A real parent would'nt straight up lie like that
We all probably think that they are legit, but if the roles were reversed and my links didnt work people would have a fit and Anne wouldnt accept them without them being fixed or located.
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see, this is how you know who works for bain. he knows well you didn't write them, as when you posted them, they worked. A real parent would'nt straight up lie like that
We all probably think that they are legit, but if the roles were reversed and my links didnt work people would have a fit and Anne wouldnt accept them without them being fixed or located.
Is there no end to your bullshit?? QUIT PUTTING FUCKING WORDS IN MY MOUTH YOU MORONIC PIECE OF SHIT!!!!!!!![/color]
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Is there no end to your bullshit?? QUIT PUTTING FUCKING WORDS IN MY MOUTH YOU MORONIC PIECE OF SHIT!!!!!!!![/color]
(http://http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a181/geojenna/Resolve/100_8586.jpg)
Vey tactful....Anne...go easy on the kids!!
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Vey tactful....Anne...go easy on the kids!!
You're a child now? Hmm.
Quit putting fucking words in other's mouths and you won't get slapped so much. Simple.
::both::
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Is there no end to your bullshit?? QUIT PUTTING FUCKING WORDS IN MY MOUTH YOU MORONIC PIECE OF SHIT!!!!!!!![/color]
(http://http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a181/geojenna/Resolve/100_8586.jpg)
Vey tactful....Anne...go easy on the kids!!
Does she really talk to her kids that way? What a mouth on her or is it a he?
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Does she really talk to her kids that way? What a mouth on her or is it a he?
Nope. My kids are great people. I only reserve that tone for program shills, as that's how I was taught to relate to people while I was incarcerated in Straight. That's how most kids are spoken to in programs. Gotta break 'em down before you can build 'em back up, right?
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Does she really talk to her kids that way? What a mouth on her or is it a he?
Nope. My kids are great people. I only reserve that tone for program shills, as that's how I was taught to relate to people while I was incarcerated in Straight. That's how most kids are spoken to in programs. Gotta break 'em down before you can build 'em back up, right?
Um... when did they ever build us back up???? I remember the breaking down (more like destroying) part... but building up? It just doesn't happen..... (Not directed at Anne, I know she knows, but just for clarification, for people who are so taken by program b.s. that they forget what really goes on--or never knew in the first place..)
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Um... when did they ever build us back up???? I remember the breaking down (more like destroying) part... but building up? It just doesn't happen..... (Not directed at Anne, I know she knows, but just for clarification, for people who are so taken by program b.s. that they forget what really goes on--or never knew in the first place..)
They didn't but that's what they'd tell people who dared question them. My mom questioned what was going on because of how she saw newcs being treated in host homes. She was told "yes, sometimes it gets harsh but you have to break them down in order to build them back up". WE know its bullshit, but that was their reasoning.
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For everyone, especially The Who, that stuck to the tired argument that Dave Marcus is an "impartial author" just writing about ASR - the good and bad, here's the deal...
I said all along that Marcus was a program shill - and he is. Recent news states that Marcus is now an "Emotional Growth Seminar Facilitator" working with renowned child abuser Rudy Bentz. Keep in mind neither Marcus nor Bentz have any education whatsoever in the area of mental health treatment.
There ya go, mindless program supporters. DAVE MARCUS is now an OFFICIAL SHILL. This is just another item in a long list that all of you vehemently denied, but, again you are wrong - like you are on just about every single issue ever debated here.
HurleyGirley, can you please elaborate on this topic?
This is a damn good thread anyway. BUMP
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For everyone, especially The Who, that stuck to the tired argument that Dave Marcus is an "impartial author" just writing about ASR - the good and bad, here's the deal...
I said all along that Marcus was a program shill - and he is. Recent news states that Marcus is now an "Emotional Growth Seminar Facilitator" working with renowned child abuser Rudy Bentz. Keep in mind neither Marcus nor Bentz have any education whatsoever in the area of mental health treatment.
There ya go, mindless program supporters. DAVE MARCUS is now an OFFICIAL SHILL. This is just another item in a long list that all of you vehemently denied, but, again you are wrong - like you are on just about every single issue ever debated here.
HurleyGirley, can you please elaborate on this topic?
This is a damn good thread anyway. BUMP
Curious, Do you have any references "outside of fornits" to support the claim?
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Read the other thread related to this too. I don't give a shit if you believe it or not. IF I have time, I'll find it. You're either gonna believe it or you're not. Makes no difference to me.
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Read the other thread related to this too. I don't give a shit if you believe it or not. IF I have time, I'll find it. You're either gonna believe it or you're not. Makes no difference to me.
At least "thewho" gives us links outside of fornits. You always say you will prove it later and never do. Do you have proof or not, Anne?
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No, not right now. I have a job to do and don't have time. You don't believe it. Fine, I hear ya.
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Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. An anonymous grouping of letters on a forum doesn't believe. What WILL I do? However will I survive??
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Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. An anonymous grouping of letters on a forum doesn't believe. What WILL I do? However will I survive??
I found an external link that tells everything about him. But of all his afilliations it seems he has no connection to the industry at all.
Here is a link:
Dave Marcus (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content.php?sub=reviewsmenu.txt&page=bookreviews.txt)
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Yeah, its his own website. Do you think it would be wise for him to advertise that he gets paid by the TTI? Wouldn't that make his book seem a little one sided if he did that? Hmmm??
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Read the other thread related to this too. I don't give a shit if you believe it or not. IF I have time, I'll find it. You're either gonna believe it or you're not. Makes no difference to me.
At least "thewho" gives us links outside of fornits. You always say you will prove it later and never do. Do you have proof or not, Anne?
ha,ha,ha... roflol
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I wonder what Marcus' impressions of these things was?
Compare this description of ASR to the LGATs described on the Cult Awareness and Information Center. :o :scared:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t= ... &start=300 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=2826&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=asr&start=300)
Perhaps as a former student/client/survivor/inmate/whatever you want to call it, I can shed some light on the subject. I was in peer group 17, I was at ASR from October of 2000 to December of 2001. During my stay I was under the impression that the lifesteps were essentially unchanged from the start of the program up until then. I can't say anything about 2002 and onward. As was said before, they were about anger, insecurities, reconnecting with core self, (aka inner child) and forgiveness. They were held in the library in the academic building, and generally started around mid evening on a friday or saturday night, and lasted between 12 and 24 hours. Hard to tell exactly because they made a policy of taking our watches beforehand. All I know was that at the latest, we were asleep in our beds by the normal lights out the next night, except for the 4th lifestep, where we slept in tents overnight outside the library. That was about 36 hours altogether.
They definitely fed us, slightly less than usual, but more than adequate for a day's nutrition. As for sleep deprivation, we were up way past our bedtimes, which were tightly regulated, so any alterations to the routine were quite noticeable. While we were up late, full of anxiety and stress, we were subjected to a lot of yelling, a lot of exercises and workshops designed to illustrate how our behaviors were hurting us. There was a lot of crying, screaming, cursing, quiet time for writing, (read: kids can't talk, counselors walk around reading what's being written and pontificating about the topics being written about. My point is that it was very intense and quite overwhelming. I don't remember every single detail of the experiences, but I will try to include what I can.
The most memorable thing about the first lifestep was an exercise called dyads. This involved pairing up with a buddy and holding them while screaming at the top of our lungs all the things we hated our parents and ourselves for, for minutes at a time. I distinctly remember spitting up blood and being encouraged to continue screaming. There were also short group therapy sessions, there were exercises involving listing all the things our parents had ever done to hurt us, focusing on all the pain and suffering that we'd ever felt and how angry it made us. After all of us were exhausted we read letters our parents sent us about how much they loved us and why they chose to send us away. Needless to say there was a lot of crying.
The second lifestep had exercises where we had to sit in a circle, while one of us would walk around from person to person to hear whether that one or this one considered them a "giver" or a "taker". After we'd all judged each other we had to say to people why we felt this way about them. Some of this took the form of harsh criticism masked as praise. There were exercises involving how we judge ourselves and how we present ourselves to others. We had to wear cards around our necks that labeled us as one thing or another to supposedly demonstrate how restrictive the images we present to people can be. I remember carving images into cubes of sandstone to symbolize all the good qualities we had and who we really were. I also remember listening to Enya and other new age music, and doing a warped guided meditation which, rather than enhancing relaxation heightens emotions like guilt, sadness and fear. It was either in this lifestep or the third that we did an exercise involving manic, happy music, and all of us being instructed to smile until it started to hurt, and walk around laughing and smiling and looking at each other for about 5-10 minutes with the song on repeat. By the end many were crying, some were on the verge of hysteria.
The third lifestep was probably the most traumatic and damaging. It involved internalizing immense guilt. We had to write down anything and everything that we'd ever done to hurt ourselves, told how horrible it was, then forced to look at childhood pictures of ourselves that our parents had mailed to the school. Sitting there for what seemed like hours being yelled at because all the mistakes, impulses, and self destruction we'd gone through were "horrible things that we, as horrible people had done to the innocent children that we were" We were told to imagine all these wrongdoings being visited upon these children, as if we'd done them to some helpless little kid ourselves. Hurting yourself because you're horribly depressed is suddenly akin to torturing preschoolers. Talk about cognitive dissonance! We had to draw a symbolic portrait of ourselves involving all our interests, loves, etc., then tack the childhood picture to it. The other focus of this lifestep was the emotional manipulations or games that we use in an attempt to fill holes in our lives. We acted out all the games we each typically used, and had our peer group guess which one. Games such as playing the victim, using intimidation, attention games, the "everything is fine" game, etc.
The fourth lifestep involved a modified Native American sweat ritual. One of these took place before the first lifestep, almost a pre lifestep. This ritual was kind of like group therapy in a sauna, with some new age religious undertones. We were smudged with sage before entering the sweat lodge, there was a little discussion about purification. We talked about grudges we held, and how they weighed us down. To illustrate this concept physically, we took a long walk in the woods late at night, each of us carrying a rock about the size of a large melon and being lectured to about how we weigh ourselves down by not letting things go. We weren't allowed to put down the rocks, and the walk lasted somewhere between 1 and 2 hours. Being able to set down the rock was supposed to symbolize how good it feels to let go of anger and resentment. Perfect timing, the program's almost over, let's assuage some of the anger that comes from having a year of your life stolen.
All in all I would say that these lifesteps are a clear indication of the cult like way that the academy is run. In addition I would like to comment on the pervasive nature of the levels and punishment/reward system that was in effect. Profanity was punishable by doing pushups, we were continually encouraged to report each other for anything and everything, for our own good. Dish duty would be assigned for having a shirt untucked or for not cleaning the dorm before breakfast adequately. Being late to meetings or classes had similar consequences. Consequences, not punishments. There was no such thing as a punishment at ASR, just like there were no rules, only Agreements. Since you agreed to not do this or that, you had already accepted the consequence for breaking the agreement. I don't remember ever signing a contract, but then again, since as a minor you don't really have rights or the ability to sign contracts, none of that matters. The point is, it was a very effective technique for fostering obedience through guilt. You didn't just fuck up, you went back on your word and let down the school. The rule system was so pervasive it was difficult to make it through an entire day without breaking at least one. Privileges were removed at the drop of a hat. If you read too many books, you were avoiding people, and weren't allowed to read for pleasure. If you were rude or rowdy you might go on a restriction and lose the privilege of any and all recreational activity for between 1 and 4 weeks. Restrictions could involve being on "bans" with groups or individuals in the school, such as "bans with all lower school students", or all females, all males, etc. You couldn't talk to people you were on bans with or you faced serious consquences. This often caused difficulty in coordinating schoolwork with therapy. Restrictions ended when counselors felt you'd accepted whatever you'd done was horribly wrong and you felt horrible about it/learned something. Then you'd tell the whole school about it and apologize at the end of the day meeting.
Academics are another concern. The options for classes were limited, the teachers often weren't qualified. My chemistry teacher was an English major who was only a chapter ahead of the class each week. He was filling in until they found someone who knew chemistry. Most of the teachers, even those qualified to teach their subject, did not know how to deal with kids with learning disabilities, or kids who acted out constantly. This had a negative effect on the amount of actual teaching that got done. Student's writings, paintings, etc. were often censored for being to dark, too imagey, too negative, too sexual, etc. Reading material was restricted, the library was full of outdated books and random novels, all of it unorganized. On numerous occasions books I'd found in the library were confiscated, apparently even some of them weren't appropriate.
Inmates faced a barrage of emotional abuse from counselors and students alike. Students tried to curry favor by enforcing rules and ratting on others. Once an accusation of rulebreaking, innapropriate behavior, telling "warstories" i.e. talking less than disdainfully about anything ASR didn't like, such as drugs, sex, stunts we'd pulled that got us sent there. Challenging the rules for any reason was being manipulative, denying an accusation was being in denial. Getting upset at false accusations was an attempt to intimidate the accuser. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
At least a third of the inmates were on either wellbutrin or adderall. You got to see one of the 2 psychiatrists the school employed, no one from outside. You weren't allowed to refuse medication either.
Some of the other issues in the program were a lack of policies on various issues such as religions, sexual orientation, and a number of other things. For example, Rudy Bentz the headmaster would frequently speak of a higher power in thinly veiled judeo-christian propaganda terms, and there was a clear preference for mainstream religions. Shortly after 9-11 in a schoolwide discussion, he failed to reprimand or even comment on an inmate yelling in front of the school an insensitive comment about "fucking towelheads". Wiccan or Buddhist students were often slighted, or accused of using the religion as part of their image rather than professing a sincere belief. Big fucking christmas tree up in the common room, slight chanukah concession for the few jewish kids, nothing for anyone else.
On other occasions, I was told by certain counselors that I did not know what my sexual orientation was and I was going through a delusional phase where I mistakenly believed I was bisexual. Yet other counselors told me it was normal and natural and to trust myself. The lack of clear policies on these and other issues created untold confusion and despair.
All in all, I think the program has absolutely minimal potential to help anyone, and most of the help it offers comes solely from the extended period of time away from a harmful home environment, and the substantial reflection it necessitates. The entire premise revolves around group mentality, breaking down and moulding psyches, a complex reward and punishment system combined with censorship and constant, constant, constant reinforcement of obedience that comes from never knowing whether or not you're "in agreement" (currently not violating or witholding a confession about past violations of the rules), and always worrying about being punished.
Through the use of repetitive propaganda, peer pressure, and psycholinguistics, the process of conveniently rephrasing everything to give it a slant that is in line with the belief you're trying to force upon a captive population. Rules are agreements, punishments are consequences, shoveling snow for 6 hours is "getting back in agreement", expressing your feelings in an unapproved manner is either acting out or manipulative behavior.
The Academy at Swift River has done untold damage to hundreds of children whose only crime was being born to parents who held them to unreasonable standards, often abused them mentally, physically and sexually, often were alcoholics or drug addicts or suffered from mental disorders, and thought that money could fix their kid. There is a certain amount of accountability on the parents part, but it's pretty much lip service when you get right down to it. Kids are beaten, berated, treated as less than human, and shipped away to prison without a trial when they understandably start to act out in these circumstances. They go through a 14 month sentence of emotional torture under questionable auspices, subjected to the horrors I've described above. To claim that the parents who sent them there are being called to task because they have to go through a 3 hour group therapy session once every 3 months and hear about how they fucked up their kid doesn't even begin to address the issues at hand.
The whole thing is a twisted mixture of cult and psych ward, it should be burnt to the ground and its founders should be jailed.
http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?opti ... &Itemid=12 (http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=965&Itemid=12)
DAY 1, Thursday evening. Agree or Else
The participants sign an agreement which includes non-disclosure of the processes used. It is my understanding that mental/therapeutic processess are not proprietary, and cannot be covered by patent, copyright or trade secret laws and thus violating nondisclosure cannot hold up in court. I will refrain from mentioning the name of the specific training I experienced and any process used in the training that cannot be documented elsewhere.
Dr. Margaret Singer writes about LGATs in her book, "Cults in Our Midst".
"The program trainers and leaders typically get agreement from participants that they will not tell anyone about the processes that occur. To do so "will spoil it for your friends, family, co-workers etc, when they take the course. Tell them what you got out of it trainers advise. This means be vague about the actual content and provide glowing endorsements telling others that the training turned your life around but do not tell them how emotional, dramatic, confrontational, and unnerving the sessions can be for some people. Because of this promise, consumers who buy and attend these seminars do so without information about how psychologically, socially, and sometimes physically stressing the event can be."
"Day one is usually devoted to demonstrating the leader's absolute authority. The leader, or trainer immediately takes control of the setting with a demeanor that suggests he is a powerful, in-charge person and no one is to challenge what he says. He remains totally in charge, acts knowledgeable, and is practiced in verbal skills so that he never loses an encounter. Anyone who challenges the trainer will be humiliated and verbally mashed."
The first day started Thursday evening around 7. After some introductory stuff welcoming people, etc. the trainer brings up *THE AGREEMENT*. The attitude and tone of voice of the trainer predictably becomes stern and unyielding in a way to purposely provoke a response from the attendees.
The first point brought up is about not revealing the processes or personal information that is shared. Since people will be sharing some very deep personal secrets then this is common sense but people do not know this in advance. The processes are not unique to the course and not proprietary but people do not know this.
The second point was about attending all the course including the followup session and also being on time. Several people objected to this stating they had other commitments family or otherwise. There were some people from out of town who could not make the next Tuesday evening followup.
Everyone of them was was met with unyielding harshness from the trainer. One of the arguments the trainer makes was if they would only "get it" they could make the space for the course in their schedule and "getting it" would also keep others from interrupting their attendance. "Getting it", of course means that we create our own reality or experience by our thinking and interpretation. However, this is not explained at this point and is designed only to provoke more responses from attendees. Several people storm out of the room. However there are ample staff people to handle those who leave. Outside, people are pressured by the staff to return to the course. Most end up coming back in the room while a few never return.
Other rules include not talking unless called upon, not sitting next to anyone you knew prior to the training, no eating, drinking, gum chewing, etc. Some people saw fit to argue with that. At this point the show begins to get quite boring as it had been over 3 hours that we were in the ballroom. At least we were allowed potty breaks as needed so I took one. When I got back the trainer was finishing up the agreements and we were asked to stand if we agreed. So we did. Then we were allowed a 20 minute break. We were reminded to be in our seats (precisely arranged and marked with tape on the floor) on time for the next part.
When we come back there is lecture which include some of the basic philosophy/pop psychology of LGATs. One can certainly read about the philosophy in John Hanley's book, Lifespring available from Lifespring (www.lifespringinc.com (http://www.lifespringinc.com))
Later we were asked to pair off into a diad (one on one exercises). What we did was an awareness exercise of staring into the other persons eyes in silence for several minutes. Then we were asked to introduce ourselves and have a conversation. At the end of the exercise we were guided to close our eyes and remind ourselves of how we behaved in the exercise, did we open up and share or did we talk superficially.
Then we did "The Trust Exercise". This consists of milling around the room, looking people in the eyes for a minute and stating one of only three things.
1) I trust you.
2) I don't trust you.
3) I don't know if I trust you.
This goes on for ten or fifteen minutes. At the end we were again instructed to close our eyes and review what we did from the vantage point of being above the crowd. Let me point out that there is a lot of closed eye guided exercises in these courses. By closing your eyes and going within one usually enters an alpha or hypnotic state and is much more suggestible then normal.
These courses also use popular music to set the mood. After the trust process we were instructed to sit on the floor and we listened to Jackson Browne's "The Pretender".
THE PRETENDER
I'm going to rent myself a house
In the shade of the freeway
I'm going to pack my lunch in the morning
And go to work each day
And when the evening rolls around
I'll go on home and lay my body down
And when the morning light comes streaming in
I'll get up and do it again
Amen
Say it again
Amen
I want to know what became of the changes
We waited for love to bring
Were they only the fitful dreams
Of some greater awakening
I've been aware of the time going by
They say in the end it's the wink of an eye
And when the morning light comes streaming in
You'll get up and do it again
Amen
Caught between the longing for love
And the struggle for the legal tender
Where the sirens sing and the church bells ring
And the junk man pounds his fender
Where the veterans dream of the fight
Fast asleep at the traffic light
And the children solemnly wait
For the ice cream vendor
Out into the cool of the evening
Strolls the Pretender
He knows that all his hopes and dreams
Begin and end there
Ah the laughter of the lovers
As they run through the night
Leaving nothing for the others
But to choose off and fight
And tear at the world with all their might
While the ships bearing their dreams
Sail out of sight
I'm going to find myself a girl
Who can show me what laughter means
And we'll fill in the missing colors
In each other's paint-by-number dreams
And then we'll put our dark glasses on
And we'll make love until our strength is gone
And when the morning light comes streaming in
We'll get up and do it again
Get it up again
I'm going to be a happy idiot
And struggle for the legal tender
Where the ads take aim and lay their claim
To the heart and the soul of the spender
And believe in whatever may lie In those things that money can buy
Thought true love could have been a contender
Are you there?
Say a prayer for the Pretender
Who started out so young and strong
Only to surrender
(c) 1976 SWALLOW TURN MUSIC
(You can get the lyrics to damn near anything off the web :-)
During the song the trainer periodically lowers the volume and instructs people to focus on their inauthentic, pretending behaviors. The tone of the trainer's voice is negative and rebuking like we are worthless pitiful pretending creatures. "Are you there? Or are you just pretending."
In my conscious mind I am somewhat amused by all of this. In my subconscious I can feel awareness of all my senses increasing. One cannot resist the psychological opening that occurs in these courses.
After the exercises the group has to rearrange the chairs to the tape on the floor. The group is timed and encouraged to beat the previous time. This is just another way to get the group to respond to the trainer on demand. By this point nobody resists the trainer.
After this it is 1 AM and time to go home being reminded to be there the next night at 7. If people go to work the next day which I did, it makes for a night of very little sleep.
Continuation here...
http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?opti ... &Itemid=12 (http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=category§ionid=8&id=72&Itemid=12)
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Thats a lot to read. Can you highlight the part where it says Dave Marcus works for the industry? Seems all this stuff is written by Anne Bonney?
Unreal
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I didn't say it did. I wondered aloud what he thought of that form of "treatment" since it wasn't included in his book. I believe Nalex wrote that, but I could be wrong.
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Anne cut the crap, Marcus book wasnt even that favorable to the industry, just told it the was it was. He doesnt work for them.
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Anne cut the crap, Marcus book wasnt even that favorable to the industry, just told it the was it was. He doesnt work for them.
Hey, I'm just repeating what I read before. If it wasn't that favorable to the industry why do they keep throwing it up all the time? Why is the book advertised on nearly every teen help site? They sure seem to think it was pretty positive. I don't know, I can't get through the first few pages without getting nightmares and flashbacks.
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Here is an interesting video of Dave Marcus and a young girl who graduated from ASR 5+ years ago. She seems to be doing well and has a compelling story.
http://www.kepplerspeakers.com/literatu ... sitiveKids (http://www.kepplerspeakers.com/literature/Marcus_Dave(PositiveParentsPositiveKids)).html
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Anne cut the crap, Marcus book wasnt even that favorable to the industry, just told it the was it was. He doesnt work for them.
reaaaalllly. i'm certain he's not traveling around the country promoting asr on his own dime? he does have a family to feed.
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Anne cut the crap, Marcus book wasnt even that favorable to the industry, just told it the was it was. He doesnt work for them.
reaaaalllly. i'm certain he's not traveling around the country promoting asr on his own dime? he does have a family to feed.
Nobody does, its a book tour..... check out the video he is promoting his book.
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I repeated my post because you buried it by responding with identical posts, one from your username which you went back and edited afterwards and one anonymously. You posted originally at 9:46am and edited your post 3 times with the last at 11:36am, right after you claimed that you didn't repeat yourself. So save your baby-games for someone else.
The proof:
Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:46 am
I dont think this shows parents seek to have their local school districts place kids at ASR. It is just too expensive for one thing, but since I was asked not to opine I will ask if any of the "Guests" out there could answer this one.
Last edited by TheWho on Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:36 am; edited 3 times in total
Look, I've read your "work" here and I can see your M.O. is to distract from the conversation and to take jabs at people who point out your behavior and then to edit your posts to try to cover up your own behavior when called out. I'm not trying to play games with you and I don't need your snide remarks or to watch you edit posts retroactively to try to make yourself look better.
If you want to play games like this and act like a child, copy my post into your own thread (a disaster area) and make your commentary there. Have at it. But don't insult people's intelligence when anyone can see you edit your posts to try to cover up your cildish commentary and behavior.
Interesting.
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link to above post....Spew's admission is interesting as well.
http://fornits.com/smf/http://www.forni ... 48#p256848 (http://fornits.com/smf/http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=256848#p256848)
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link to above post....Spew's admission is interesting as well.
http://fornits.com/smf/http://www.forni ... 48#p256848 (http://fornits.com/smf/http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=256848#p256848)
Spew bounced back pretty well and got the thread back on track:
Spew says:
Good, It seems I got your attention, then. If you want to engage in adult conversation and debate try being polite and accepting of all peoples opinions. If you want to exclude people who may not agree with you start a new topic over in “Facilities questions and answers” I will not be responding over in that forum. This wastes time and derails from the subject to attempt to choose who may respond to your posts....
And just for the record I have read your work here also, you may log in if you like or stay anonymous as a guest; it really doesn’t matter to me...... so back to the subject:
As for your question, it is hypothetical, because you have not yet established that ASR accepts public funding. Why waste peoples time and research when it may not apply? Your link was to a family that was trying to get their town to pay for ASR. The town turned them down. Try to establish your premise first as a bases for a good argument.
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Spew was totally PWNED. And again in the following pages on ASR's licensing and classification. Damn interesting thread.
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Spew was totally PWNED. And again in the following pages on ASR's licensing and classification. Damn interesting thread.
Spew knows how to get peoples attention even if it takes getting pwned.
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The Who is a manipulative liar who will go to any lengths to spread lies and disinformation. Page 15 of this "ASR" thread.
I repeated my post because you buried it by responding with identical posts, one from your username which you went back and edited afterwards and one anonymously. You posted originally at 9:46am and edited your post 3 times with the last at 11:36am, right after you claimed that you didn't repeat yourself. So save your baby-games for someone else.
The proof:
Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:46 am
I dont think this shows parents seek to have their local school districts place kids at ASR. It is just too expensive for one thing, but since I was asked not to opine I will ask if any of the "Guests" out there could answer this one.
Last edited by TheWho on Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:36 am; edited 3 times in total
Look, I've read your "work" here and I can see your M.O. is to distract from the conversation and to take jabs at people who point out your behavior and then to edit your posts to try to cover up your own behavior when called out. I'm not trying to play games with you and I don't need your snide remarks or to watch you edit posts retroactively to try to make yourself look better.
If you want to play games like this and act like a child, copy my post into your own thread (a disaster area) and make your commentary there. Have at it. But don't insult people's intelligence when anyone can see you edit your posts to try to cover up your cildish commentary and behavior.
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ASR hired a new head man. Looks like they may be headed the "religious counseling" way now...
Bulletin (http://http://www.troubledteenhelp.com/pr_AcademyatSwiftRiver_05071001)
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ASR hired a new head man. Looks like they may be headed the "religious counseling" way now...
Bulletin (http://http://www.troubledteenhelp.com/pr_AcademyatSwiftRiver_05071001)
From the "bulletin"......
Academy at Swift River is a member of Aspen Education Group, the nation’s leading provider of therapeutic education programs for teens and young adults.
Didn't they admit in court that they provide no therapy/treatment?
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Didn't they admit in court that they provide no therapy/treatment?
It may appear that that is what they meant at a quick glance. As I read through it more slowly they were referring to one child who didnt receive therapy because he was not signed up for it, parents opted out of the individual therapy.
Some of the programs have independent therapy brought in from outside and are not part of the staff. This is sometimes optional. Each program is a little different, even within the Aspen Group.
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Didn't they admit in court that they provide no therapy/treatment?
It may appear that that is what they meant at a quick glance. As I read through it more slowly they were referring to one child who didnt receive therapy because he was not signed up for it, parents opted out of the individual therapy.
Do you have that citation handy? I'd be interested in reading it. I remember DJ posting it, but don't know where. Since you just read it, would you please post a link?
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Didn't they admit in court that they provide no therapy/treatment?
It may appear that that is what they meant at a quick glance. As I read through it more slowly they were referring to one child who didnt receive therapy because he was not signed up for it, parents opted out of the individual therapy.
Do you have that citation handy? I'd be interested in reading it. I remember DJ posting it, but don't know where. Since you just read it, would you please post a link?
I didnt just read it. Do you remember the school was it Aspen Ranch? I think it was. I will see if I can dig it up.
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Do you have that citation handy? I'd be interested in reading it. I remember DJ posting it, but don't know where. Since you just read it, would you please post a link?
Link to lawsuit (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=345882#p345882)
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Now that I read it again I was mistaken. The parents "did" sign up for individual therapy but during a crisis the boy did not have immediate access to her and instead saw an unlicensed therapist.
It boils down to:
The parents were suing the school because their son caused trouble and got tossed in jail and they wanted their money back.
As far as providing therapy goes:
The parties seem to agree that although Trudy Godat was not licenced, one member of Matthew Pence's "treatment team" was a licenced therapist.
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