Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Antigen on December 15, 2005, 12:14:00 PM
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I think there's enough interest here and, certainly, enough different viewpoints. But it is off topic in other threads. So I thought I'd start a new one cause Alan Bean is just so worth passing along.
Friends: The American Prospect describes itself as "an authoritative magazine of liberal ideas, committed to a just society, an enriched democracy, and effective liberal politics. Robert Kuttner, Robert Reich, and Paul Starr," we are told, "launched the magazine initially as a quarterly." They recently interviewed Nate Blakeslee.
Two quotes caught my eye, "You can't ever compensate someone for spending four years in prison for something they didn't do;" and "But even somebody, you might even say particularly somebody, that has a questionable reputation is entitled to due process and a fair shake in the legal system."
I didn't get into this fight because I thought Coleman's victims were "in prison for something they didn't do." Maybe they did it; maybe they didn't. There were indications that some of them may have done something-but not what exactly what Coleman said they did, and probably not when Coleman said they did it. In other words, while I always believed innocent people had been accused, I didn't think anyone, innocent, guilty or semi-guilty, should go down on the word of a guy like Coleman, plus nothing. Those who live in Tulia, and know the defendants by their "questionable reputations" easily assume "they're all guilty." Those who live in exotic, far away places like New York and Austin easily assume that "they're all innocent."
There has never been any way of answering the guilt-innocence question. There is no independent source of information beyond Mr. Coleman himself. The human tendency to rush to judgment (in either direction) is precisely why defendants should be presumed innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt on the basis of evidence produced in open court. I sometimes fear that many of those most convinced that Coleman's victims are innocent would drop their support if they realized how ambiguous the evidence is in either direction.
One editorial type in a cosmopolitan town told her readers that she too disliked drug dealers and drug addicts who mess up black neighborhoods and don't care for their families. But something (probably the fact that Coleman was so hopelessly corrupt) had convinced her that the folks in Tulia didn't fit this profile. So they had her enthusiastic backing. But what if she discovered that some of them did fit the profile-would she have lapsed into embarrassed silence? That is the natural assumption.
Alan Bean
http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?sec ... cleId=1073 (http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewWeb&articleId=1073) 3
By Sarah Shemkus
December 14, 2005
Early one morning in 1999, dozens of young men, most of them black, were rounded up by police in Tulia, Texas, and charged with dealing cocaine. Texas Observer reporter Nate Blakeslee discussed the defendants' eventual exoneration, the corruption of the system, and his new book Tulia. What was it about what happened in Tulia that caught your interest? The first I heard about Tulia was after the bust had taken place and there had been about five trials. No one was accused of dealing more than a few hundred dollars worth of cocaine, but the juries were handing down these amazingly long sentences.
My idea for the story was to interview these rural jurors and ask them what is it about dealing that they think is morally equivalent to murdering someone. It wasn't until I started interviewing defendants and their families and their attorneys that it became evident that it was also a story about a corrupt narcotics officer. Then the question became, were the cases even real to begin with?
How did a man like undercover agent Tom Coleman ever get hired for a law enforcement position in the first place?
It's a breakdown in the criminal justice system on so many different levels that it's hard to know where to begin. First and foremost I think you have to talk about this federal program that funded the operation. It's known as the Byrne grant. It was hatched in the late 80s -- at the height of the drug war. The idea was that the federal government couldn't get a DEA agent in every little town, but they could persuade rural sheriffs to get involved through this grant program. The attitude was that anybody can do narcotics. I think what Tulia has proved is that really that's not true. What does the story of Tulia reveal about the larger landscape of the national war on drugs?
I think it shows the decline in standards of law enforcement that has come along with the Byrne Grant task force program. And it's not just in Texas; these grants are funding similar drug task forces in almost all rural and suburban areas in the United States. I think it just shows, over time, that the loftier goals of the drug war seem to be receding.
Everyone had the same goal at the outset, which was to reduce drug addiction and the problems that come along with it. After 20 years it's become like any other federal program; it's become a bureaucracy. In fact many of these task forces, especially in Texas, all they really do is go after the low-level users and dealers -- they're basically just arresting the same people over and over again, often just the addicts themselves.
How could an incident of this scale even happen in the first place?
In addition to the Byrne Grant program, the big one that you have to look at is Texas' system of appointing indigent defense. It was up to each judge in Texas to decide how he wanted to do it himself. You can imagine what a low priority it is in some of these conservative, law-and-order communities to make sure someone gets fair representation if they can't afford an attorney and they've been busted for drugs.
The very first trial of the whole Tulia thing was a good example. The defendant's name was Joe Moore, 57 years old. He was accused of delivering $200 worth of cocaine, but Mr. Moore had an enhancement because he had a prior felony. He was looking at up to 99 years. His court-appointed attorney met with him two times, called no witnesses on Joe's behalf during the guilt-innocence phase of the trial. They did jury selection in the morning at about 9 o'clock, and by 6 p.m. he had a 90 year sentence. It was just so shockingly efficient.
What role did racism play in the events?
I don't think that there's anything uniquely racist about the town of Tulia. I think the scandal could have happened in just about any town in America. You do have to talk about race when you look at the sentences and when you look at the incredibly flimsy evidence on which these people were convicted: the word of one undercover cop with a terribly checkered history who never wore a wire or had video or any other evidence to corroborate his story. There's a long tradition that dates back to the segregation era, where black communities that used to exist outside city limits were identified with vice and lawlessness. That old stereotype that all the evil in town is rooted in the black community has died hard. That's partly what went into the minds of these jurors -- that this was a chance for them to do something about that. Did you believe that the men would ultimately be freed?
It certainly didn't look like they would be. It became this huge national story and laws were passed in the Texas legislature -- how can we prevent another Tulia? There were talks of hearings on Capitol Hill. Meanwhile, you still got two dozen people sitting in prison, but very little is being done to get them out. There was a long lull in which some people were quietly working on their cases. There was this call to prevent another Tulia that seemed to drown out the call to get the victims of the original Tulia out of prison. It wasn't until a couple of years later that the ball really got rolling on the post-conviction work.
One very noticeable aspect of your approach to the story is the depth with which you discuss the backgrounds and ancestry of even the most minor figures. What was the importance of addressing individual histories so deeply?
I wanted people to care about the characters in the book. There's 2 million people locked up in the United States -- the drug war has fueled the huge increase in incarceration rates. It's easy to let that glance off your consciousness when it's just numbers. I wanted people to understand that these were people who were falsely accused and locked up. Some of these guys did not have good reputations in town and some of them had past brushes with the law or drug problems. But even somebody, you might even say particularly somebody, that has a questionable reputation is entitled to due process and a fair shake in the legal system.
What happened to the figures of authority who let this whole scandal occur in the first place?
Tom Coleman was indicted for perjury. I think some would question whether or not 10 years probation is an adequate sentence after some of the people he accused did four years in prison before they were exonerated. He'll never be a police officer again, which you'd like to think was a given. The district attorney, who certainly has to shoulder a lot of the blame, was defeated by the voters -- curiously, not principally not because of the scandal but because he got a DWI charge.
One judge presided over most of the Tulia cases, Judge Ed Self, and there were many opportunities at which he could have stopped this whole scandal. He in particular witnessed Coleman perjuring himself at an early trial and apparently made a decision to allow him to continue to testify. Nothing has happened to him.
The sheriff who actually hired Tom Coleman, and has stood by him even to this day, is still the sheriff. He was re-elected at height of controversy. He's a really trusted and respected figure in Swisher County. Looking back at the whole story now, what is the most tragic part of the whole affair?
The time that was lost by these people and by their families. You can't ever compensate someone for spending four years in prison for something they didn't do. If the system requires four years to fix a problem that never should have occurred in the first place, then it is obviously broken. I am sure these guys felt like they were rotting away in there and everyone had forgotten about them.
Sarah Shemkus is a Prospect intern.
(c) 2005 by The American Prospect, Inc. http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?sec ... right+Info (http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=Copyright+Info)
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
"Isn't your pants' zipper supposed to be in the front?"
--Hobbs to Calvin
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Thanks antigen. There's also a good article about Tulia in this week's Newsweek mag. I don't make many friends with my position on drugs on either side of the issue. I believe recreational drug use is generally unhealthy or 'bad'...this makes most drug users irritated...but I'm also completely opposed to any laws against drug possession...and this makes the anti-drug crowd equally as irritated. I don't see any contradiction in this pov. I don't think eating copious amounts of junk food is good for people either but this doesn't mean that I think people should be arrested and imprisoned for eating twinkies. High cholesterol is 'bad'...but imprisoning people for having high levels of it in their blood is not a good idea, imo. I'm opposed to cigarette smoking but am even more opposed to making smoking illegal. As a society, we seem to be coming to the point of thinking that if anything is bad for you, there should be a law against it. Seatbelt laws are a good example. Using seatbelts is a good and healthy habit and not using them may increase your chance of dying in a car accident. But does it follow that we should be passing laws to save adults fom themselves and fining or arresting them for failing to protect themselves? Are we perpetual children that need a father(land) or mother(land) to make sure we don't hurt ourselves? Or a big-brother government to protect us from ourselves? If we executed jay-walkers I'm sure it would decrease the incidence of this crime too.
What substances adults choose to put into their own bodies should be no-one's business. If we start down the road of 'what's good for society'..then we may as well start compulsory calisthenics as in the People's Republic, pass criminal laws against being obese or arrest people for reading books that contain 'dangerous' or harmful ideas. To me, this isn't a left vs right or liberal vs conservative issue at all. Both sides are guilty of this sort of thinking. Liberals want to save us from watching tv that might contain violence or racial or sexist stereotypes while conservatives want to save us from seeing adults having sex in movies or hearing dirty words on the radio. Both sides tend to evoke 'children' to justify their positions. Sorry for the rant, but I'm very passionate about this issue. The only thing more dangerous and unhealthy than individual freedom is the lack of it.
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Wait a second maybe arresting the obese isn't such a bad idea... :grin:
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On 2005-12-15 21:53:00, marshall wrote:
I believe recreational drug use is generally unhealthy or 'bad'...this makes most drug users irritated...but I'm also completely opposed to any laws against drug possession...and this makes the anti-drug crowd equally as irritated. I don't see any contradiction in this pov.
I'm right there with ya'. You, me and John Perry Barlow. And you're right, both branches of the Party are just as dirty. The right wants to lock the niggers up. Hell, I think it was Carlton Turner (who endorsed Newtons's program book, Not My Kid or Gone Way Down) who once suggested the death penalty for posession of large quantities of coke. The left wants to do something far worse; wittness Janet Rambo's drug courts.
And all of this is very consistent w/ modern thinking on other issues. I remember when my older brothers were teenagers. In those days, a kid could go buy a car and drive it. It was thought to be a good idea to have insurance and seat belts. Then the left made insurance mandatory (and, therefore, exorbinantly expensive) Then Nadar carried off his holy jihad for safety requirements. Now I have grown kids who can barely afford to drive while the insurance execs are litterally building industrial revolution era castles up here in these hills. So we're down to one car, 4 licensed drivers in this house. And those two other licensed drivers are a rarety around here. Damned near everyone they know has a suspended licence or some kind of legal disablility; either an old DUI or unpaid fines or some such. The auto insurance companies run commercials depicting a kid stopping to change a flat or having had a fender bender when the cops roll up, lights flashing. Their logo is "We'll keep you legal for less!" Less than what, man! They're paying like $1200/yr It's crazy!
I think we've had just about all the help we can stand. Is there any way to get the message to these altruistic tyrants to just please quit helping us so damned much?The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one.
--George Bernard Shaw, Irish-born English playwright
_________________
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
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On 2005-12-16 04:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Wait a second maybe arresting the obese isn't such a bad idea... :smile: agenda could do.
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The TC program for junkfood junkies may not be as far-fetched as it sounds. I saw a segment on a news show (can't remember where...maybe CNN) about a school (I think in California) that outlawed all junkfood after they removed all the vending machines from the school system. School officials physically confiscate potato chips and candy bars if they find any kid possessing them...even during lunch. Something similar happened at my grandkids school. My daughter sent a small coke in my grandson's lunchbox. A teacher noticed it and took it from him and informed my daughter that softdrinks are not allowed even when sent from home. What's next... testing children's urine for the presence of transfatty acids?
Again, all of this begins with high ideals and lofty intentions (ala John U.'s seed defense)...we as a society notice that 'we' are getting fatter and eating too much so rather than taking personal responsibility for the problem we try to impose change via authoritarian rules and laws. 'Lock the dang kids up. That'll teach 'em to eat potato chips!' I can see the beginnings of the same sort of thinking toward junkfood that has produced the current war on drugs. It's held up as a national issue of grave importance. They emphasize how much obesity or lack of exercise costs society.
I've given this link elsewhere on fornits, but since it relates to the subject at hand (the Drug War) I'm posting it here too:
http://www.buzzflash.com/reviews/05/rev05050.html (http://www.buzzflash.com/reviews/05/rev05050.html)
http://www.progressivesource.com/Page.html (http://www.progressivesource.com/Page.html)
Great book. I highly recommend it.
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http://www.mychildisobese.com/canaparen ... echildren/ (http://www.mychildisobese.com/canaparentlosecustodyofobesechildren/)
Looks like we're already there.Marihuana influences Negroes to look at white people in the eye, step on white men's shadows and look at a white woman twice.
--Hearst newspapers nationwide, 1934
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I think it is a question of who has to pick up the pieces, if the father- or mother- land has to fix it, then there is a justification for regulation. Unfortunately, we pullout all of the stops to keep you alive in spite of your poor chioces, because we are a "compassionate" society.
I have no problem with freedom to engage in unhealthy or unwise activities so long as responsability accompanies that freedom.
Unfortunately we are a society which like have a bogeyman and we have been shown that the "drug problem" looks like some black junkie in a ghetto, who is also the guy who will kill you for a quarter. So when the politician says "tough on crime" we think of Willie Horton on meth. The real message is we are going to keep "them" away from good folks like you. Anyone foolish enough to advocate a rollback of the "war on (insert bogeyman here)" must not be concerned with the public good.
When the electorate only gets the sound bites and network shoutfests are considered a discussion of the issues this is what we get.
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Yup, and therein lies the rub. I find it ironic as hell that the neo-conservatives have dug in so staunchly on the drug war. It was, after all, started as part of the Eisenhower benevolent, Great Society New Deal. But that's where the hook comes in. If we're to make provision of basic needs a matter of public policy, then you're right, we take with that the right and duty to see to it that all of our precious resources are properly and wisely spent. And we can never agree upon what is and is not a wise expenditure. No people ever could, as many times as any demagog has promised his vision of Utopia.
I want the Old Deal back, damne it! And it's not that I'm cruel or uncaring or greedy to keep hold of what's mine. Fact is, not much in material terms is mine. And, given my native temprement, even in a no holds barred, kill or be killed capitalist society, I'd still be a Bohemian, doing just enough to stay warm and fed and avoiding, like the plague, any committments or obligations that would require me to be in a fucking hurry.
Shit, man! I've had enough of that! I hurried and scurried all through my childhood, then through single motherhood, then through paying the bills while my bo turned husband grew up enough to carry the load. I'm done w/ that. The powers that be willing, I'll take my ease and wear cheap threads and cook from scratch, thanks very much.
And just you take some time and think about this. Yes, take it, by fraud or force if need be! It's an absolute necessity, like sleep, nutrition and love. Has the New Deal delivered on it's promises? Granted, we have better medicine, but we have poorer basic health and more need of it. Plus the expense. Better nutrition? Well, less famine. But basic nutrition and, worse, knowledge of good, sound nutrition is in desperate straits, here and abroad. Check out Jamie Oliver sometime; Naked Cheff turned food activist.
When I was a kid, most 16 - 18yos had cars of their own, or ready access to one. Now? Not many people around here, especially the young, can manage a car, insurance, repairs, gas AND avoidance of losing the priviledge of driving. You still have to drive to make a living and not drop it, bill by bill, day by day into the transit authorities 'flexible' budget. But you can't have it, unless you're very careful and very lucky.
Is our standard of living really improving? I don't think so, honestly. I think we were better off, overall, before they started helping us so much.
Real criminals walk free every day to rape, rob, and murder again because the courts are so busy finding consensual criminals guilty of hurting no one but themselves.... To free cells for consensual criminals, real criminals are put on the street every day.
Peter McWilliams
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Why don't you get off your butt and get a job that pays you money ? That way you can buy insurance, decent clothes and live in a decent house and even help your children. Quit feeling sorry for yourself and blaming being in a rehab for every problem you encounter in life. At what point to you take personal responsibility for your own failures?
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Wow, are you comin outa left field. I have a job that makes money. Not as much as my husband, but nothing to sneeze at either. And we have a nice house and a late model minivan and enough leftover for soccer and gymnastics and fun and stuff. And we do help our grown kids, considerably. They both work too, one full time steady, the other (so far) seasonal and any damned thing you ask him to do for money, so long as it's legal and ethical. I'm talking tell that kid to muck out a horse stall or weed wack a hillside for halfway decent wages (between minimum, which is a fucking bad joke, and about 8 or 9 bucks an hour) and he's frog marchin himself through hell and high water to get it done.
The trouble is that, given all that, it's just not as easy to make their own way as it was for us in those halcion days prior to the Summer of Manson.
It just can't be done. It's not just my kids. My kids are about the only people around here near their own age who actually manage to keep a car insured and gassed up and keep their licenses.
And I wasn't talking about the austensible drug rehabs we were in. Please get over your fixation with that. I was talking about the broader, older, public sector New Deal program, of which the war on certain unpatentable drugs is a big part; mabe a linchpin.
I'll start getting over that when it quits happening, not before. Now go back to sleep or wake the rest of the way up, please. Drowsy drivers are a menace to society.
The German Nazis and the Russian Communists came very close to us in their methods, but they never had the courage to recognize their own motives. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power.
O'Brien, the apparatchik
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On 2005-12-17 18:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Why don't you get off your butt and get a job that pays you money ? That way you can buy insurance, decent clothes and live in a decent house and even help your children. Quit feeling sorry for yourself and blaming being in a rehab for every problem you encounter in life. At what point to you take personal responsibility for your own failures?"
We should call this oft repeated ad hominem "the marching song of the devoted"
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A Men and A Men. Oh, love and light, the prime rib and slow smoked meats, the good Thai food w/ good service, oh the home brewed beer and fresh morning biscuits my dear brothers and sisters have missed in their 1 or 5 alernate homes away from home; all in the name of that sacred banner.
Don't hate the media. Become the media
--Jello Biafra
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Right On Sister. Do you have a Jane Fonda exercise tape. :tup:
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Plus "Wow are you comming outa left field"
Antigen do you ever play in any :silly: other position.
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It is amusing to read post from people who are so far out on the left fringe tell someone else they are in left field.
Whatever happend to moderates ?
The problem with the people on the fringes, left and right, is that they have to omit a series of facts and ignore logic in order to reach their positions. In addition they think if they repeat their ill concieved arguments a thousand times it somehow becomes a valid argument when, truth be told, it is just as invalid the 1000th time as it was the first.
For example, the argument that society isn't better off today because when when Ginger's brother's were old enough to drive insurance was easier, less expensive, to get or you didn't even have to have it all. The statement ignores the reasons and facts as to why insurance has become mandatory and why rates are what they are.
The reason for mandatory insurance is laws is to protect those who are victims of some else's carelessness or negligence. In other words if someone smashes into you on a public street , road, highway ect.. they have an obligation to make you whole. That means repair your car, if repairable, or replace it if totaled. Pay your medical bills and pay you for any other damages such as lost wages ect...
Obviously there were to many people getting into accidents with no insurance and leaving people without a remedy. The solution is to force people to carry a minimum amount of insurance to at least provide any victim of an accident some remedy. Holding people accountable for their negligence and leaving the victims of others negliegence whole is not bad law or bad public policy. This means that if someone is negligent, runs a red light or stop sign, and smashes Ginger's "late model van" they have to fix it. If they cause her physical injury they have to pay for it. How else would you want it?
Keep in mind the policy is also based on the theory that driving on a state roadway is a priveldge not a right. Why does anyone have the right to cause someone else injury or damage and then just shrug their shoulders and say sorry I'm broke and don't have no insurance ? If they can't afford it tough luck. Society can't afford to pay for their neglience. Life aint always fair.
If I throw a rock thru someone's window do I just say i'm sorry or do I pay for the window ?
The stuff about unpaid fines is totally bogus. When you get your license you agree to follow the laws and rules of the state issuing you the license. Get a fine...pay it. Got to have rules otherwise the whole traffic situation would be chaos. Go to Haiti or the Dominican Republic if you dont believe me. Follow the rules you dont get fined.
The crap about insurance companies & excutives ect... making lots of $$$ also misses the mark.The main reason insurance rates are higher is because everyting else is higher today then it was 30-35 years ago. 35 years ago you get a new car for $2000-$5,000. Today $20,000-$40,000. It obviously cost more to repair and replace these cars than it did 30+ years ago. In addition medical cost are way way higher. Those cost are passed on to the policy holders in the form of higher premiums. There is no other way to do it. Keep in mind insurance companies are in business to provide a service for a profit.
The comment about drug courts is also way off the mark. "Drug Courts" are one of the best things the criminal justice system has ever created. Everyday judges throughout America literally agonize over what to do with young defendants, 18-24 year olds,who have been accused or convicted of violating the law. Drug programs offer the judges a form of sentencing, other than prisons, to give a person another chance to straighten out their lives. Some people succeed some don't...can't blame a judge for trying. The judges are duty bound to do something with anyone convicted of a crime.
My take on the whole rehab debate is this...If you are over 18, an adult, you can either voluntarily place yourself in a rehab or agree to be placed in one under court order. This is regardless of whether or not we want to call them a cult or not. Adults can make their own decisions. However, I oppose any program that is , TC in nature, for kids 17 and under. :wave:
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On 2005-12-18 09:34:00, FueLaw wrote:
The reason for mandatory insurance is laws is to protect those who are victims of some else's carelessness or negligence. In other words if someone smashes into you on a public street , road, highway ect.. they have an obligation to make you whole. That means repair your car, if repairable, or replace it if totaled. Pay your medical bills and pay you for any other damages such as lost wages ect...
Yeah, I know that's the intent. But it doesn't actually happen. I lost a 10k car and a kneecap to a drunk driver. His insurance paid and so did mine. I got less than 10k, and I'm still missing half a knee cap. Never mind the lost vacation, trauma to the kids wo (thankfully) were not seriously injured, the months and months of recovery.
I could have, under more normal circumstances, gone after him directly through the courts. Instead, I was forced by law to go through insurance companies and their lawyers. They're all living pretty well, it seems. While I spent the next couple of years driving around in an old k car and paying higher rates than before.
The intention sounds real good to some people. Wouldn't it be nice to live in a risk free world? But the reality is quite different. We live in a world that's just full of risk. We used to pay for insurance to make us feel safe from certain accidents and catastrophes. Now we're forced to pay for that comfy safe feeling even if we don't get even that. And, for all that, young adults are effectively limited in their ability legal to travel. That's so damned important. Kids ta day can't get around to work, to school, to visit relatives, to take on a role as an adult in the extended family. And this is WITH both kids working as much as they possibly can.
Now, how's that better? Or, more to the point, better for whom? As men's prayers are a disease of the will, so are their creeds a disease of the intellect.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson, American essayist, poet, philosopher
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On 2005-12-18 09:34:00, FueLaw wrote:
The stuff about unpaid fines is totally bogus. When you get your license you agree to follow the laws and rules of the state issuing you the license. Get a fine...pay it. Got to have rules otherwise the whole traffic situation would be chaos. Go to Haiti or the Dominican Republic if you dont believe me. Follow the rules you dont get fined.
And yet you can't get blood from a rock. And you can't rely on the fines always being fair or well deserved. They're not. One way local ppl around here like to harrass themselves is to cry harassment. Works like this. Adult kid pisses of his mom, she calls the cops and claims he cussed at her (used the ef word!) That qualifies as harassment. Kid's mailing address is the mother's house, and she's warned him never to come around or she'll call the cops. So she waits for the court date to pass and the warrant to be issued and notice sent by mail. Then she calls the kid and says "Look, I'm sorry, I was just really mad but I'm over it, come over and let's talk". Kid gets there and the cops arrive to arrest him on that warrant that he never knew about. Kid spent some weeks locked up AND got fined.
Kid is still paying those fines, along w/ a $300 for littering by a passenger in the car he was driving.
All good intentions aside, the reality on the ground is that all this regulation intended, every individual piece of it, to help and protect us all actually chokes off commerce in a thousand ways.
Your blaming the victims in this case just doesn't wash, unless you think there's something about the regional culture that just makes them all failures. Fact is, very few young adults around here can put together a car, insurance, license, gas and repairs. I didn't realize how bad it was till the kids' car broke down. Half the ppl who they know who do drive have suspended licenses for one reason or another. They have to avoid driving in towns where the cops know them and know they're unlicensed. See, you have to drive to earn money to pay the fines so that you can drive.
Life is like a shit sandwich; the more bread you got, the less shit you gotta eat.
--Anonymous
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On 2005-12-18 09:34:00, FueLaw wrote:
The comment about drug courts is also way off the mark. "Drug Courts" are one of the best things the criminal justice system has ever created. Everyday judges throughout America literally agonize over what to do with young defendants, 18-24 year olds,who have been accused or convicted of violating the law. Drug programs offer the judges a form of sentencing, other than prisons, to give a person another chance to straighten out their lives. Some people succeed some don't...can't blame a judge for trying. The judges are duty bound to do something with anyone convicted of a crime.
My take on the whole rehab debate is this...If you are over 18, an adult, you can either voluntarily place yourself in a rehab or agree to be placed in one under court order. This is regardless of whether or not we want to call them a cult or not. Adults can make their own decisions. However, I oppose any program that is , TC in nature, for kids 17 and under.
Well, we didn't have this monumental problem before prohibition and Harrison. The simple solution is to repeal laws against consensual, non-criminal activities. The Old Deal, in other words, when people took or were pressed w/ responsibility for their actual actions, not some social engineers supposition about what might happen at some time down the road due to the individual's drug preferences.
And, unfortunately, TC and stepcraft based treatment make up somewhere around 90% of the programs to which the courts order their non-criminal violators. What else are they gonna do except maybe join LEAP. LEAP is made up of career law enforcement, judges and POs who have come to the conclusion that what we're doing is not helping at all and is creating a whole raft of problems in the process.
I want the Old Deal back, damn it! That's what my dad fought for in WWII, against communism.Men had better be without education than be educated by their rulers.
--Thomas Hodgskin
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What happend to you is clearly wrong. The legal system is far from perfect. The law doesn't always work as intended. Hopefully in your case the judge made resitution a part of the sentencing order. In Fla if the driver casued you serious injury he would get some time if he had no insurance and no way to make restitution.
About the people not being able to afford insurance. There is no good answer. Cant let them drive without it. On the other hand they cant afford it. Kind of a "catch 22". Works both ways if they get in accident then they will want and be entitled to compensation.
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On 2005-12-17 18:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Why don't you get off your butt and get a job that pays you money ? That way you can buy insurance, decent clothes and live in a decent house and even help your children. Quit feeling sorry for yourself and blaming being in a rehab for every problem you encounter in life. At what point to you take personal responsibility for your own failures?"
Dude:
I just could not help but respond to you.
Have you completely missed the point?
Tell me, please, where does this notion of failure come from? I didn't see those words anywhere on this thread.
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On 2005-12-18 10:56:00, FueLaw wrote:
"What happend to you is clearly wrong. The legal system is far from perfect.
But this is the norm. Actually, I didn't get screwed quite so badly as I might have. A few weeks after, w/ one leg imobilized and hurting still, I got a call to go pick up a draft for almost $10k. So I did, and went directly to the bank with it. Next day, I get this call from the same clerk or scty or whomever she was. She says they made a mistake, they shouldn't have issued the draft and they'll get in big, big trouble if I don't take the money out of the bank, in cash and rush it over to them.
I may have been born at night, but not last night!
The law doesn't always work as intended.
When something I own fails to work this consistently for this long, I generally get rid of it and mark it up to experience. How much longer will it take in this case?
Hopefully in your case the judge made resitution a part of the sentencing order.
What sentencing order? Are you joking? The blood sample (drawn by the cop at the scene just to make sure it got done) spoiled. So badly did it spoil, they say, that one could not assess the level of alcohol.
After paying the surgeon (who, oddly, didn't get a slice of the $2k already paid for medical bills) I passed on the weekly therapy and, instead, got some dental work done, a halfway decent family vehicle and a trip to bring my kids to see my dad out in the sticks in WV. We didn't know it then, but next time I saw him he'd be dying and it would be the last time for my kids.
So, you tell me, would that cash of mine have been better spent fighting the good ole' boys? I don't think so.
In Fla if the driver casued you serious injury he would get some time if he had no insurance and no way to make restitution.
He had insurance. Which meant that I couldn't, even if I wanted to, sue him. I'd have to go up against his insurance company. How helpful!
About the people not being able to afford insurance. There is no good answer. Cant let them drive without it. On the other hand they cant afford it. Kind of a "catch 22". Works both ways if they get in accident then they will want and be entitled to compensation. "
And people in hell want ice water. We're not getting it. Insurance is like Vegas; except for a rare fortunate few, no one ever wins against the house. Who would run an insurance company at a loss? Why would they?
As Jefferson said, "It is error alone that requires the support of goverment. The truth can stand on it's own."
Free commerce, the capitalist system, only works in a free market. The orange growers of Florida (AKA Tropicana/Coca~Cola) would have gone bust a long time ago, in competition w/ Brazil, had it not been for their having friends in high places in the USDOA and FLDOA (coincidence that Florida Prison Corp is heavily invested in groves, processing plants and patented consumer products manufactured by Johnson & Johnson? Ok.) If we let them fall, instead of spending many millions in public funding to prop them up, do you think that land would go fallow and all the grove and factory workers starve? Hell no, people would come up w/ better uses for that land. People are adaptable to changing conditions. Socialist governments are not.
They were making a profit selling a year's worth of car insurance to 16yo boys for somewhere around $100. Now that it's compulsory, the profit margin is not even a consideration. Everyone must buy, therefore the price is artificially high. Cars were cheaper then, of course. Thanks to all of Ralph Nadar's help, cars are now far more expensive to build. Do you really think it's the market squashing production or demand for cheaper, simpler, fuel efficient, fix it your self transportation? Are you nucking futs?
Offer that for sale in this valley and you'll be beatng eager prospective customers off with a stick. I know young men (especially, though girls too) who would gladly give you their left arm for that. It would be life changing. But, according to those kind, benevolent watchers of ours, more dangerous than raising a generation of kids in a world where good, honest working folk can't afford to get to work.
Yes, it is a catch 22. If I hadn't been forced to part with all those insurance premiums over all these years, I might be in a better position to cover any damage I may one day do to anyone. But between the mandated private spending and layer upon layer of taxation (to administer and teak and change and execute all of the help we're getting) we become too impoverished, too restricted to ever get around to anything more than just staying afloat.
I think we've had just about all the help we can stand. I want the Old Deal back, damn it!To regard Christ as God, and to pray to him, are to my mind the greatest possible sacrilege.
--Leo Tolstoy, Russian revolutionary
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Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
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i'll weigh in here..to ginger ::rocker:: to me, there 3guarantees of a free society, and they are 1)well amed 2)well educated and 3) well informed well armed is all that's left, and that not much longer.... i have a question..of course it's a rhetorical question, whaddya expect..is it mere co-incidence that the fbi was instituted to combat the rapid growth of organized crime, which grew from prohibition ? was it mere co-incidence that following repeal, the mann act was passed, and the nation awoke to the unrivalled horrors of marijuana addicts skulking through every alley in every town and that the nations youth were being exposed to jazz musicians,artists, negroes and worse? may i humbly recommend a book? title 'the soveriegn individual" published in 1997.. my opinion, a real earth shaker.. i am a conservative, which means that i find social engineers of the left as loathsome as those on the right. to fuellaw..if the government compels me by force to purchase from private industry, ie: insurance, is it not incumbent upon the government to compel that industry to provide the lowest cost? if my choice is to either participate in a grand fraud or abandon the use of my private property (my car or boat or plane) and suffer economic dis-enfranchisement.. what choice is that?why is the insurance industry exempt from sherman anti-trust? re: medical costs and insurance..if insurance were not in collusion with gov't. and ama/pharmaceutical please tell me why so very many effective, safe and cheap therapies have been suppressed? (and no, that's not exaggeration, i can, if you're interested, supply example after example. benzodiazepam class drugs are an excellent one.. thnk you, one and all i've enjoyed the rant, and i hope i've properly bludgeoned you with fact.
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In answer to your question...
The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by an endless series of hobgoblins; all of them imaginary.
" there 3guarantees of a free society, and they are 1)well amed 2)well educated and 3) well informed well armed is all that's left, and that not much longer...."
Here lately, I've been giving some dedicated thought to just exactlywhat it would take to attain that state of soverignty in which ya really don't have to give a flyin run at a rollin donut what happens in Timbucktu or Kalamazoo. Armament is only shorthand for what it really takes. So ya got a gun or three in the house. Good. You may need them one day. But do you know how to use it? Where do you get ammo? Have you really given enough thought to if and when you might take out another human, under what circumstances and how many bullets to reserve for provision of meat? And can you grow a garden that will actually feed your family, any guests who may drop in on you and the friend down the way who bet it all on proceeds from his berries last year and is rockin hang dawg as summer turns to fall? Do you have the kind of get along w/ ppl around your area who keep in practice w/ all the necessary arts and craft that make up provision of basic needs and are your good friends of a stripe and character to actually favor the common law of good society over the letter of the official law when the two come into conflict?
For example, it is illegal to employ yeast to produce ethanol for the purpose of fueling a motorized vehicle, unless and until you have met a patently impossible test of bureaucratic aptitude and expense. The common law and the laws of physics are pretty reasonable in this, but the official laws of the land are not. So, if you and your neighbors need fuel and the necessary alterations to your gasoline engines and machines in order to survive or to live well and independently, will yenz actually come to terms with that conflict and take the necessary steps to ensure provision of fuel in time for winter?
That's what I'm talkin about.
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dear ginger, dear heart.. yep, boy howdy you are something , and fierce.. of course arms are only the face of it, but they are very impportant face of it..the largest question is HOW THEN SHALL WE LIVE? WHAT SHALL WE DO?" it seems to me that most people of decent resolve are simply out in the cold, that what i would call ordinary morality and courage, ie; the simple impulse to live quietly and well( i would sure as hell like to have you at my house, whereupon i would make a near perfect manhattan, and a far better than perfect pork roast.. so there! and furthermore ,for the menfolk, i can put an effective round at 250 yards, and i can charm a woman at about 5yards, although, not exactly a sober one.) i don't really know how we shall live, but we must. in what do we believe, finally?+
sean ross