Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: cleveland on September 30, 2005, 12:06:00 PM
-
I am posting my own 'Dear Art' letter here, and I hope others will too.
"Dear Art,
Hi, this is Walter. You called me Wally. I was a newcomer in '78 in Cleveland, 19 years old at the time. I was looking for some answers then, since my family seemed so screwed up, and my brother had joined the Seed and came home, seemingly transformed. I went to an Open Meeting and, after talking with Scott B., sat down on the front row. I graduated and ended up staying for 7 years.
I want to tell you that the Seed experience was a complicated one for me. I was young and confused, and it gave me definite answers to so many things. I also really thought the raps were fascinating, how a staff member could weave a spell over the group, and how much we might laugh. Some people were cryers, but not me. Anyway, I came to believe that the Seed was it, or at least that it offered an alternative to what I had found in life so far.
I really wanted adventure, and the Seed promised that we would change the world. I wanted friendship, and I was told I would have friends for life. I wanted examples to follow, and I had Scott, and Ken, and Ginger, and Lybbi, and Phil, and all of the other successful, happy graduates that were leaders.
Frankly, being 'straight' didn't mean much to me, since I hadn't been an addict at all before. I was afraid that I might turn out like others in my family though, who were clearly alcoholics, so I toed the line on that. It seemed like a small price to pay.
I also didn't like all of the rules, being separated from the girls, having to play sports I didn't like, and loosing my 'old druggie friends,' some of whom were really great people and not 'druggies' at all. But I accepted that it was all or nothing, and I did my best to be a good sport. Besides, we were changing the world.
I think one of the big attractions for me at the Seed was you - your own personal charisma. You were a strong male figure and frankly, I was estranged from my dad almost completely. And my mom was mentally ill, so I felt alone in the world and you promised to change that. You were very sure about what was right and wrong, what was masculine and feminine, how to have 'class' and how to live your life. I was hungry for that.
I have to tell you though, that I eventually left the Seed. As a seven year graduate I had begun to feel unhappy, a forbidden emotion at the Seed. I had begun to tire of the power plays in the group, the rigid hierarchy of decisions, and the fact that I felt that I could never break into the inner circle of the group, where I percieved that people lived a much better life than I did - going to school, getting married, having good jobs, etc. I didn't know how to get into this group; I believed you that being humble and serving others was they key, and I did this to the best of my ability. I now believe that the key actually was based on all the things that existed outside of the Seed - looks, charisma, athletic ablility, charm. I was shy and insecure and I was incapable of projecting those things.
Do I blame you? Yes and no. I think addiction is more complicated than the Seed led me to believe. I also feel that the Seed failed me - a lot was promised to me and I really couldn't reach those goals without a lot of non-Seed work and therapy on my part. I also think the Seed set a bad precident, an anti-democratic counterculture that some have called a cult. Me too.
But - I thank you for some great times. I learned to love Frank Sinatra and jazz becuase that was the music you liked. I abstained from sex during my Seed years, and maybe that was a good thing, because I had to mature a little bit and it's easy to hurt yourself and others with this power. I formed great friendships - all with guys of course - that ended when I left. Thanks for helping me learn to love to cook - I was always the chef in our apartment. Because of you, I gained respect for America, for the military, for traditional masculinity, and for sports.
But you know what? You left a lot out of the picture for me. There were so many things I didn't do when I was at the Seed, and I was stunted. But that' not the biggest loss. The biggest loss was that the whole Seed enterprise violated the 'first and most importand rule' - honesty. Everything had to match your will and opinions, and those of staff. Dissent was not tolerated. That is why the Seed failed, in my opinion. I also pretty much lost seven years of my life, and seven years of time with my family, all of which I had to make up.
OK, best to you, I hope you are well.
Walter"
-
Dear Art,
Give me a call! Lets do lunch!
Luv ya!
GregFL
:grin:
-
Wow, I can't believe it. Only one other post here, and it's not serious. Doesn't anyone else want to write a (sincere) letter to Art? Maybe he will read it some day...
Years ago, I wrote a letter to my dad, never sent, but I think it did me good. C'mon, join the fun!
Or is this a stupid idea?
Walter[ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2005-10-02 16:24 ][ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2005-10-02 16:24 ]
-
I already wrote one to him personally, and I am glad I did, I wanted him to know how much he helped me and that I am forever gratefull to him and Shelly.
Art was human, He was not perfect, but he managed to make a difference for the positive in many of our lives and that's more then most of us can say.
-
Not a stupid idea at all Walter, but it is a highly personal thing. You can't expect people to automaticaly want to do this. As the thread gets older, perhaps people will want to apply seriously.
-
Send him a private message. His name is on the list. You don't think he'll come on here for a good bashing do you?
Preacher man don't tell me heaven is under the earth; you don't know what life is worth;.......If you know what life is worth, you will look for your's on earth.
--Bob Marley
-
All ready been done. I sent a letter to him about 3 years ago. :wave:
-
N.B. you french are always such wooses.
-
Dear Arthur,
This is reality calling. You have 35 years worth of unread messages. Will you be clearing these out any time soon?If we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion by education
--Thomas Jefferson
-
ding...you've got mail!
:grin: :grin: :grin:
-
Your both more like ding dong.
-
That must mean Ginger is Ding...
Think about it.
:grin:
-
I've been thinking about it for 10 mins now. Can I stop?
-
its your own fault.
:grin: :grin: :grin:
-
Hey there, Dong :wave:
Religion is just mind control.
--George Carlin, comedian
-
Whattup Ding?
:wave:
-
Maybe its more like Cheech & Chong. :smokin:
maybe Charlie Manson can play Dave.
-
Dheech and D.. oh nevermind.
:grin:
-
You really liked Napolean Dynomite didn't you. I read your book you threw at me and then I studied you all like a deck of cards.I don't have to prove anything to you or my "bucther knife" sibling.He's in big trouble. His [email protected]
No citizen of a liberal and democratic nation profits from a victorious war.
--Ludwig von Mises
-
How about getting off of these antibiotics
How about stopping eating when I'm filled up
How about them transparent dangling carrots
How about that ever elusive kudo
Thank you India
Thank you terror
Thank you disillusionment
Thank you frailty
Thank you consequence
Thank you thank you silence
How about me not blaming you for everything
How about me enjoying the moment for once
How about how good it feels to finally forgive you
How about grieving it all one at a time
Thank you India
Thank you terror
Thank you disillusionment
Thank you frailty
Thank you consequence
-
Hi Art and Shelly,
I just wanted to let you know I really appreciate your having started, and poured over 30 years of your life into The Seed. I was the 'other' Thom in "The New Crusty Nostrils" group of around '74-'76 or so. That was a very special time for me. When you asked us to go to Cleveland and sing, it was both an honor and an adventure.
It was cool walking into the room up there, and feeling instantly at home. I have enjoyed that feeling many times over the years as I've visited different AA, NA and GA rooms around the country. I got side-tracked for a few years, predictably, right after leaving The Seed, but am doing very well these days.
Thanks for showing me that I had potential in this world, and for offering a glimpse of what a straight / sober life can be. I also blame you for my love of Jazz. That day you took a bunch of us to your house to hear your stereo playing some of your Big Band collection was a true mind expanding experience for me musically.
Many fond memories, and morsels of wisdom will stay with me always, i hope. The concept of sober humor was first introduced to me by you. The delayed-reaction in putting these things into action was my bad. I thank God for you and your vision and determination and willingness to share it all with us punks. :wink: .
I remember you saying that if the net result of the efforts of the Seed was that ONE kid was spared a life of misery, it would all have been worth it. (or words to that effect) I thought it was a fatalistic attitude at the time, but it makes perfect sense now.
Some of the former Seedlings I'm in touch with these days still harbor bitterness over perceived mistreatment under your care.
Although I don't totally agree with some of your treatment methods during those early years, I hear improvements were made. It was a work in progress. I do recognise you as a fellow human being, living out God's will for your life to the best of your ability, and I thank you for your willingness to do so. I'm sober about 14 years now, and life is good. Thanks for the good foundational work!
Sincerely, Thom McNulty
-
On 2005-10-04 21:55:00, Thom wrote:
I do recognise you as a fellow human being, living out God's will for your life to the best of your ability, and I thank you for your willingness to do so.
:rofl: Thom, accusing Art of living out God's will is like wishing the Program on me. Are you even vaguely aware of how often and lightly you offend people?Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.
--Isaac Asimov, Russian-born American author
-
Antigen,
Please, do you have any idea how often you offend people?
-
James, the brother of Jesus, told me to post this in the wrong thread. LIAR.
Dear Art,
Thanks for convincing my parents physchologists were all "full of shit" and warehousing me for all that time while people poked at me and screamed in my face and denied me basic human dignity like toilet privelidges. It really helped me get in touch with other people living inside my brain and identify the voices.
I am now medicated and institutionalized, but I recite the 3 signs to my invisible friend every day, then we go seven stepping around the courtyard with Jesus and Hitler.
Your the best!
And thanks to Mussolini for showing me the right thread!
-
On 2005-10-04 21:55:00, Thom wrote:
I do recognise you as a fellow human being, living out God's will for your life to the best of your ability, and I thank you for your willingness to do so.
"
Correct me if Im wrong, but wasn't Art an atheist?
-
"anon", why don't you just use your handle? You know Ginger and I know who you are, so who are you trying to hide your tirades against her from?
-
Art was not an atheist but I would not qualify him as a Christian or a Jew in the traditional sense. I know through talks he had in the group that he was half Jewish half Catholic by birth. Did not practice any religion as I can recall, Art always spoke of the importance of spirituality and emphasized the difference between that and religion.
He always said you pick your own higher power and perceive the higher power in the way you see fit this, this used to piss off the parents that wanted a more religious based program along with some of religious clerics who viewed his ideas as borderline heresy .
Come to think of it this might have been the origin that started the basic rift between the Seed parents that broke away and started the program ?Straight?. Just a theory on my part.
-
He's not half Jewish.
-
:???: :???: :???:
Sorry my mistake
-
On 2005-10-05 10:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
" Art was not an atheist but I would not qualify him as a Christian or a Jew in the traditional sense. I know through talks he had in the group that he was half Jewish half Catholic by birth. Did not practice any religion as I can recall, Art always spoke of the importance of spirituality and emphasized the difference between that and religion.
He always said you pick your own higher power and perceive the higher power in the way you see fit this, this used to piss off the parents that wanted a more religious based program along with some of religious clerics who viewed his ideas as borderline heresy .
Come to think of it this might have been the origin that started the basic rift between the Seed parents that broke away and started the program ?Straight?. Just a theory on my part.
"
No, Straight had a similar philosophy. In fact, the philosophy wasn't just similar, it was identical.
To take it a step further, there really was no "rift" of any significance. What happened was the Seed packet up and left St Pete, and the cult-less parents tried to duplicate it for the benefit of the community and "improve" some of the things slightly.
There was a rift between the parents that started Straight, mainly because they were practicing the very same techniques the Seed did, such as forced hair cuts and the like. This caused a bunch of early straight parents to resign in disquist because the promise was a seed like program new and improved, not an exact clone of the seed, which is what they got.
-
On 2005-10-05 10:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"He's not half Jewish. "
But was he an atheist? I seem to remember him being one, but I am not sure.
Of course, I know he believed in a higher power, but I always thought he felt that he was it.
:grin:
-
On 2005-10-05 08:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Antigen,
Please, do you have any idea how often you offend people?"
Yes, but mostly only brainwashed people.
I remain, in the service of mankind, doing my part to piss off the Religious Reich. :nworthy: The world is so exquisite, with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's no good evidence. Far better, it seems to me, to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.
--Carl Sagan
-
ARTIST: George and Ira Gershwin
TITLE: It Ain't Necessarily So
Lyrics and Chords
[Porgy and Bess]
It ain't necessarily so
It ain't necessarily so
De things dat yo' liable to read in de Bible
It ain't necessarily so
Li'l David was small but oh my
Li'l David was small but oh my
He fought big Goliath who lay down and dieth
Li'l David was small but oh my
Oh Jonah he lived in de whale
Oh Jonah he lived in de whale
For he made his home in dat fish's abdomen
Oh Jonah he lived in de whale
Li'l Moses was found in a stream
Li'l Moses was found in a stream
He floated on water 'til ole Pharaoh's daughter
She fished him she says from that stream
It ain't necessarily so
It ain't necessarily so
Dey tell all you chillun de debble's a villain
But 'taint necessarily so
To get into Hebben don' snap for a sebben
Live clean, don' have no fault
Oh I takes dat gospel whenever it's pos'ble
But wid a grain of salt
Methus'lah lived nine hundred years
Methus'lah lived nine hundred years
But who calls dat livin' when no gal'll give in
To no man what's nine hundred years
I'm preachin' dis sermon to show
It ain't nessa, ain't nessa
Ain't nessa, ain't nessa
It ain't necessarily so
I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotism.
--Albert Einstein, German-born American physicist
-
I specifically recall that Art did not believe that Jesus was the son of god or divine in any sense. He often spoke about this in the group. He used to say that Jesus was a great rabbi, but that's all. As to whether he was an atheist, I have no idea. I've wondered about the religious angle of the Straight / Seed split too, since Straight became a very conservative christian group from what I've read. I also remember born-again oldtimers coming to group and relating about finding Jesus. If Art happened to be present, he would take pains to point out that this wasn't necessary to get straight or stay straight and was just their personal choice. I give him credit for being much more tolerant of religious diversity than groups like Straight and some of the other later off-shoots. As long as your primary religion was the Seed, you could embrace any other faith.
-
On 2005-10-05 08:47:00, Antigen wrote:
"
On 2005-10-04 21:55:00, Thom wrote:
I do recognise you as a fellow human being, living out God's will for your life to the best of your ability, and I thank you for your willingness to do so.
:rofl: Thom, accusing Art of living out God's will is like wishing the Program on me. Are you even vaguely aware of how often and lightly you offend people?Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.
--Isaac Asimov, Russian-born American author
"
Yes, Ginger, I am vaguely aware of how often and lightly I offend people. I think Art can handle it. People have hurled harsher comments at him.
-
On 2005-10-05 08:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"James, the brother of Jesus, told me to post this in the wrong thread. LIAR.
Dear Art,
Thanks for convincing my parents physchologists were all "full of shit" and warehousing me for all that time while people poked at me and screamed in my face and denied me basic human dignity like toilet privelidges. It really helped me get in touch with other people living inside my brain and identify the voices.
I am now medicated and institutionalized, but I recite the 3 signs to my invisible friend every day, then we go seven stepping around the courtyard with Jesus and Hitler.
Your the best!
And thanks to Mussolini for showing me the right thread!
"
...is he there too?
-
On 2005-10-05 11:39:00, marshall wrote:
As long as your primary religion was the Seed, you could embrace any other faith.
Yeah, that's pretty much how I remember it too. I did thoroughly enjoy that song that I quoted above. It was one of those things that made my mom's head cock to the side like a confused puppy. Sort of like Capt. James T. Kirk's method of destroying robots by speaking contradictions to them.
But it wasn't much different in Straight, either. I always thought the CC influence came from the local communities that made up Group. First there was St. Pete, then Sarasota, then Cincinatti, then Orlando and Atlanta. But Melvin and Betty Sembler are not Christian. They're Jewish. So I don't think it was their idea. I think they just didn't really care much one way or the other so long as, as you note, the Program was the primary religion.
For more than a hundred years much complaint has been made of the unmethodical way in which schools are conducted...with what result? Schools remain exactly as they were.
--Comenius,1632
-
On 2005-10-05 11:41:00, Thom wrote:
I think Art can handle it.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Oh yeah! That Art, he was always so humble and open to criticism and such. I doubt seriously that his remaining followers would dare read to him any of that criticism. Wouldn't do anyone any good anyway. It's not asif he needs to hear it and change his ways. The man is old and ill and no danger to anyone anymore.
But, vindictive and mean as it may be, I would still love to be a fly on the wall if you ever do decide to pay him a visit and tell him how much you admire his living his life for God.
An Animated Cartoon Theology:
1. People are animals.
2. The body is mortal and subject to incredible pain.
3. Life is antagonistic to the living.
4. The flesh can be sawed, crushed, frozen, stretched, burned, bombed, and plucked for music.
5. The dumb are abused by the smart and the smart destroyed by their own cunning.
6. The small are tortured by the large and the large destroyed by their own momentum.
7. We are able to walk on air, but only as long as our illusion supports us.
-- E. L. Doctorow "The Book of Daniel"
-
On 2005-10-05 11:39:00, marshall wrote:
I've wondered about the religious angle of the Straight / Seed split too, since Straight became a very conservative christian group from what I've read. "
Not really true. Some of the later offshoots became religious in nature but still used the exact same techniques, but straight continued along the same religious path as the Seed.
Remember that straight was run by a Jewish guy..
-
On 2005-10-05 10:43:00, GregFL wrote:
"
On 2005-10-05 10:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"He's not half Jewish. "
But was he an atheist? I seem to remember him being one, but I am not sure.
Of course, I know he believed in a higher power, but I always thought he felt that he was it.
:grin:
"
I heard he got an Honorary Doctorate in Atheism from The Atheism Institute of Metropolitan Fort Lauderdale, Florida University College
-
On 2005-10-05 12:06:00, GregFL wrote:
Remember that straight was run by a Jewish guy.."
Oh, come to think of it, Betty just testified in her deposition that the Ref., Dr., Dr., Fr. Virgil Miller "Cassian" Newton remains a dear, dear friend and she thinks he's an extrodinarily wonderful human being.
I'm sort of leaning toward the notion that all the Sembler's public affiliation w/ Jewish causes and organizations are nothing but political moves. I don't think they're any more Jewish than that sadistic sob is Christian.
Were the power of Congress to be established in the latitude contended for, it would subvert the very foundation, and transmute the very nature of the limited Government established by the people of America.
James Madison
-
So Straight did not have a c.c. (to use Gingers shorthand) slant to the program? My mistake. I got that impression from reading bits and pieces from people that were there. So you could be like a Hindu, Buddhist or Atheist and the Straight program was ok with that?
-
I heard he was running after a splitter and ran by the Univ. and saw the honorary Doctorate on the ground picked it up. He went back to his office & just hung it on the wall. :rofl:
-
Thats Dong.
Thank you very much.
:grin:
-
On 2005-10-05 12:19:00, marshall wrote:
"So Straight did not have a c.c. (to use Gingers shorthand) slant to the program? My mistake. I got that impression from reading bits and pieces from people that were there. So you could be like a Hindu, Buddhist or Atheist and the Straight program was ok with that?"
As long as your primarly religion was the straight, yes.
Again, same shit, different shithole.
Later on some of the, for lack of a better term, "leaders" of various spinoffs were christians and used the captivity part of the program to "share" their christianity with others.
SAFE in Orlando did this under the watchfull eye of christian Lorretta Parrish. Later I believe when she left it reverted back to a less christian type kiddie Jail.
-
Dear Art,
Once upon a time I was a straight A student, a member of the chess club, a member of 'future leaders of america', and had applied for various colleges and was accepted at harvard business school.
However, I had smoked some marijuana and was clearly dying, going insane and headed for jail. My parents were convinced to enrolll me during my senior year of school in your rehab and I have never smoked pot again! Because of you I forgoed my scholarship at a top university and spent the next 10 years stepping and kissing libbi's ass. Today I work at circle K, but I am the night manager!
You saved me!
THANKS ART! You are groovy!
-
Good for you, we are all proud of you. Now take your meds and go back to sleep so you'll be ready for work.
-
most people that have been brilliant in school have a problem doing well in real life, you shoiuld have developed better social skills . Don't blame your carrer
choices on Art.
-
Marshall, Greg pretty much nails it. There was a rather subtle but unmistakable CC influence (and by that I mean the Southern Independent Baptist type, playing cards are a tool of the devil, females shall not wear divided costume type Christian).
But it wasn't coming from the original group staff or higher up. It was coming from the parents group. In fact, when I was allowed to go to "school", it turned out to be a freakishly extreme Independent Baptist school attached to a church. There I learned, from the PACE homeschool curriculum, that Col Sanders was a fine Klansman and great American hero, while characters like Jefferson, Adams and Franklin were not even worthy of mention.
And there were at least 3 other Straightlings and a couple of LIFErs in attendance during the 6 months or so I was there.
Did the Seed have a rule about being allowed to read the Bible but nothing else? I can't remember whether that was for front row or newcomer at home (in Straight, 1st or 2nd phase) I don't know what would have happened if someone sent up a coc to be allowed to read any non Judeo/Christian texts. I suppose they would have been allowed if the parents supported it, but I have the impression that it would not have been entheusiastically supported.
The spirit of this country is totally adverse to a large military force.
--Thomas Jefferson
-
Do I detect battle lines being drawn? :scared: :scared:
-
Dear Art Y Shelly,
When I was 9, I was saved of certain death, insantiy or jail because you "fixed" my druggie attitude. Of course I had never done drugs or even thought about doing them, but I had those darn posters and even bell bottom jeans! My mom was so smart to place me in your care before things got really out of hand.
Oh sure, the methods weren't perfect. I was stripped searched by a rapist. My oldcomer masturbated every night and sprayed me on the chin because unfortunately I was on the lower bunk, and I was yelled at and kept away from my mother and sister for over 1 year. One night he even got it in my eye. I asked him what he was doing, and after moral inventory he showed me. I never understood however why he wanted to show me every night. He was just that type of unselfish guy I guess, always giving, always caring.
Later, after graduating, I had so idolized some of the staffers that I started shooting heroin, just like them!
Even later, I got HIV from dirty needles, but I remembered those steps! I have recovered at least 30 times because of those darn steps!!!!
I am 85 pounds now and have full blown Aids. Had it not been for you Art, I am sure I would have died a long time ago a dirty worthless druggie. I am now clean and sober and really miss you guys!
Lov ya!
-
On 2005-10-05 13:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
Do I detect battle lines being drawn? :scared: :scared: "
no.
-
Greg what do you do when you are in the Forum Index?
-
the "forum index" is just the first page of the forum.
This page
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/ (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/)
-
Dear Art,
Once upon a time I was literally dying. I Know some people scoff, but Let me just recap what was killing me.
The main problem is that I had officially joined the counter-culture. I know that is hard to believe but it is true. One day, I took the bus to the Southeast regional office of the counter-culture and paid my dues. It was expensive for sure, 2 grams of hash and an ounce of mexican, but at the time I thought it was worth every penny. For that I received a patch, a headband, A "peace" t-shirt, and a Led Zeppelin album, and a "I hate Richard Nixon" bumper sticker.
To be sure, it was the bumper sticker that prompted my father to seek out treatment for my disease as he knew I was in the first steps of addiction, insanity, by my daring to keep in print any criticism of the government.
Oh how I treasured these things but Little did I know they would lead me down the path of ruin and addiction. How do I know this for certain? because you told me so silly!
Now, of course I had never done anything but smoke a little of that marijuana and hash that I purchased for my counter-culture dues, but after one month of being locked up and rapped to daily, discussing my sexuality and earning the right to pee, a light bulb went on. I started calling the bulb "god", and then one day John Underwood screamed at me until I pissed myself, then everyone took turns calling me names and telling me what a piece of shit I was "on the street". Wow, it was like a miracle, I finally realized I WAS AN ADDICT AND YOUR PROGRAM HAD SAVED ME.
I tell everyone I meet that I was dying as a child and you saved me. Had you not locked me up in that warehouse, with all that fiberglass dust, the guards, and the peanut butter sandwiches, I would Be DEAD, INSANE or INJAIL.
If anyone ever doubts that I Come down on em, just like you taught me,and then I never speak to them again!
Thank you for everything. You are not just my hero, you know what I am thinking right now!
signed,
The mayor.
-
Dear Art,
I was worthless before the seed. Often I would do drugs for hours, think nothing of myself. I didn't respect god or country, my mother, my teachers. I only lived for drugs.
Since graduating the seed, I have become an upstanding citizen, proud of my affiliation with you and the seed.
You have made me who I am. Without you and the wonderfull seed program I would have never had the courage to do the things I have done.
I will always be gratefull. I love you!
Forever a seedling,
Jason Walton,1974.
http://www.dc.state.fl.us/ActiveInmates ... =974965271 (http://www.dc.state.fl.us/ActiveInmates/detail.asp?Bookmark=24&From=list&SessionID=974965271)
-
Thank you Art & Shelly:
I am writing on behalf of my brother who just recently passed away. On his behalf I would like to thank you for giving him the tools to succeed in life. In prison he used to leads his own raps and remind people why they sang jingle bells. Without the guidance of you and your incompetent staff he may have been sentenced to death instead of life in prison. Hopefully you included him in your 90% success rate.
Love Ya' and could have endured my brothers prison sentence without you !
The Mauldin family
http://www.dc.state.fl.us/InmateRelease ... =969034778 (http://www.dc.state.fl.us/InmateReleases/detail.asp?Bookmark=1&From=list&SessionID=969034778)
-
Oh my, if you are really with the Mauldin family my condolensces
-
Greg, i think the above posted is just finding people with records to add to his letters. since i think he's posted about 6 times in this thread. two of which are inmates...just a guess. but i think a reasonable one
-
no, comes from a different IP.
-
greg, thats not hard to do.
-
It is not a proxy, trust me on this one. It is not the same person.
-
anyone remember Charles Mauldin from the Seed. Was he as suggested a graduate? From what branch?
Another sad tragic story. I just read his Fl supreme court case online & his appeal.
-
Was that post really by his sister Deanetta?
If so, were you in the seed also? Was it St Pete?
please tell us more...
-
greg, all you need are multiple systems in the house. i know several people who qualify for that and would post here.
secondly, the man seems to have died yesterday.
considering the similarity in tone and of all the posts (more than just those two) and the short time span. its a bit fishy
-
I am telling you under no uncertain terms it is not the same person. I know this to a certainty.
-
greg. it could still be different people. but quite frankly. what i said can also still be correct. two computers in a household. two different internet connections. two different ips. "two different people" but not really.
-
If Mr. Mauldin was indeed in the seed, it is another case of a mentally ill child improperly being admitted to a lockdown drug rehab. According to his brief, he was severely mentally ill, and the seed was no place to be throwing kids with mental disorders.
But old Art the "doctor" thought he could cure anyone.
"The psychiatrists can't do a damn thing with kids on drugs"
Art Barker
"Picture in your mind a moment, $250 saves one young person from a life of drugs with one of three alternatives-death, imprisonment, or psychiatric hospitalization. What an investment-$250 for one life!
Art Barker
yeah, picture in your mind...
its an obscene visualization I get.
-
On 2005-10-05 18:18:00, Anonymous wrote:
"greg. it could still be different people. but quite frankly. what i said can also still be correct. two computers in a household. two different internet connections. two different ips. "two different people" but not really. "
Do I need to make it crystal clear?
I know who the first set of posts are from..they were intended as a parody meant to make you think.
This comes from someone entirely different. It is not the same person, the same house, or even the same type of IP. I am 100% sure of that. No chance at all of me being wrong here.
-
i apologies for offending for trying your patience
-
p.s. two different internet providers.
same house
you wouldnt know.
-
final remark
when you follow maudlin's hyperlink
it pulls 14 records for different people
hmmmm sounds like a random search to me
-
please don't misenterpret what I am saying. YOu are absolutely right of course. People can and do use proxies, different computers, etc and make it appear to be different people. And yes, the first impression was that this was part of that series of parody posts. Your conclusion was rational and reasonable.
That just isn't the case here, and if it is indeed from the sister of Mr. Mauldin, I would like to welcome her here and have her tell us more.
-
On 2005-10-05 18:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"final remark
when you follow maudlin's hyperlink
it pulls 14 records for different people
hmmmm sounds like a random search to me"
actually,not at all. If you go to the home page of the website, do a search for Mauldin, you get 14 hits.
Not random at all but someone searching for that specific record from the FDOC.
-
no i mean they hyperlink in this thread. when i use the hyperlink provide it pulls 14 records
-
his is record 4 of 14. the names are not similar so the search criteria was not name???
-
also the name is spelled wrong
MAULDEN, CHARLES S
not mauldin.....
it was signed wrong in the post?
-
hehe
You nailed it. The name was signed misspelled.
Okay, ignore all this crap..back to your regularly scheduled "dear Art" thread.
BTW, great post whoever thought of it! You got me good! Was this guy in the Seed?
-
Greg, are we ever regular? :smile:
-
BTW, in case anyone don't know, Jason walton was indeed a graduate of the St Pete Seed.
This guy Mauldin, who knows?
edited for typo idiocy!
-
Dear Art,
Thank you for showing me the way. Once upon a time my son was a filthy druggie, having smoked Marijuana! I despised this and our family's reputuation was on the line. We needed help, and you threw me a lifeline. I am forever in your debt.
You fixed my boy good, you did. He came home a different person...a better person. I became dedicated to the ideals of the seed, so much that I figured something out, the seed ideal was bigger than just you.
I am sorry to say that, but other great minds from that era, John Underwood for one, has said the same. The seed ideal needed to be spread and frankly your ego was getting in the way.
That is why we had to expand without you. We love you Art, you know that, but the dream had to grow, and you were collateral damage. I am sorry. Will you forgive me?
Love always,
Mel.
-
WALTON, JASON D
not walden
-
Hey Art,
Your a dumb sucker!
Thats right, I said it...SUCKER with a capitol S. I waited, plotted actually, always knowing one day it would be mine, all mine.
The glory, the accolades, the worshippers. You never deserved them...no siree. They belonged to me. I got them to sign themselves in. I massaged their parents. I solicited the donations. I and I alone was responsible for filling up that warehouse.
What did you do other than softshoe around and make an ass of yourself in the press? Your a loser and you know it. Why, if I was still running my program, I would set you on the front row between a couple of big homosexuals until you broke down and begged to be shown the real way, until you "got it" so to speak.
The seed did suck Art, because you were in charge. Later, we got it right.
Sucker.
Until we meet in hell.
Helen
-
Dear Art, John, Libby Y others,
Thank you for saving me! Let me just recap my story.
I was a thirteen year old girl from Tyrone and definitely headed for trouble! I know I was, I am certain of it because I had all the druggie signs and my mom found them. I had low cut slutty jeans with a patch right on the ass! SLUT I was, even tho I was a virgin. Also, I drank a beer one day out behind the dumpster with a boy. Man, was I about to die.
Well, you wise older ex-junkies, alcoholics and prostitutes knew just what to do! You removed me from my negative environment at my house with my mom, dad, sister, brother, and my dog Butchie, and sent me to live in a much more positive environment with 9 older girls in an apartment building. Frankly I had no idea where I was because I got there around midnight and left at 7 in the morning, but after the oldcomers locked us in the room and bolted the windows, We stayed up late every night talking about the awfull days before the seed..the sex..the drugs..the concerts. True, I was tired whatwith sitting in those chairs all day learning how to step, learning about the signs, the serenity prayer and such, but still I was spellbound by these stories as each girl outdid the others with these fantastic tales of sex and drugs and older boys and music. Of course, the story always finished with how unhappy they were doing these things, but man oh man, these were some real juicy stories! I had never heard of these things before in my life! WOW!
Soon, it was my turn and truthfully I didn't want to be left out so I made up a story about giving blowjobs to all the guys I knew! Man, the girls really accepted me then. I was on the fast track now to sobriety! No longer would my "attitude" suffer and I was called upon often in girl's rap to repeat these stories of my sexual slutty life on the streets and yes I wove some interesting tales which for a while frankly I started believing! I know thats strange but I am trying to be honest.
Soon, I was stood up in group and told I couldn't even fuck a coke bottle! Even my cousin stood up and screamed how I didn't appreciate my mother and father. One boy told me that "on the streets" he would have raped me and left me bleeding. The staffer leading the rap told me to "get with the program" or I would never go home.
WOW!!! What therapy!!!!! I was forever changed.
I left the seed after 7 months, having turned 14, and a proud seed graduate with many friends and a big ole seedling smile. All my friends were now older seed kids and much more experienced than me and knew the ways of boys and drugs. They unselfishly shared this knowledge with me without me ever even having to ask! Such friends don't just happen, This I can tell you.
Soon my mom couldn't drive me to oldtimer's raps anymore because she said something about donating all her money to get me straight. My seed friends stopped talking to me because I wouldn't go to the Necessary raps and I made a new group of friends that reminded me very much of those girls I had spent so many nights with telling tales of boys and drugs, but honestly the foundation you set for me never left and set the stage for the rest of my life.
It has now been 34 years and after a lucrative career as a stripper at Mons Venus, today I run a small Tampa brothel and never smoke pot. I am proud to say I give the best blowjobs in the world , just like I said in girls rap 34 years ago! Some of my best customers are judges, cops and politicians that also had their kids in the seed, and sometimes while performing my services for them we just reminesce and laugh about those good ole days when all our families were saved from certain ruin.
Yes, I am a 90 percenter, a success story if ever there was one.
You guys cured me! Thanks again.
I luvvv youuuuu!
Liz
-
That above post really sucks along with a couple of the other fake ones above.
If you want to talk about junenile posts, I think these take the cake.
-
Greg & Others :
Maulden was in the Seed, first Dade then Broward. I was in with him and used to ride back and forth with him. He lived about a mile away from me. He was court ordered, another Underwood/Judge Sepe success story. His sister was in also. She was a few years younger than him. I don't remember her name. [ This Message was edited by: FueLaw on 2005-10-06 07:00 ]
-
His sister's name was Deanetta.
What a sad story. I read his appeal last night. He was obviously a long time mentally ill person.
Yes, another kid locked up in a warehouse in a "one size fits all" alternate reality. This kid likely worsened, not got better, from the extreme techniques used on him at the seed. He ended up killing people close to him while hearing voices in his head.
Sad, sad tragic story, one of many. Thanks for clearing that up Fuelaw.
another sucess story!
"Picture in your mind a moment, $250 saves one young person from a life of drugs with one of three alternatives-death, imprisonment, or psychiatric hospitalization. What an investment-$250 for one life!"
Art Barker
Well Doctor Barker, I have a newsflash for you. Sometimes people need psychiatric hospitalization in leiu of screaming and yelling, starving and keeping awake,and "hold your urine" marathon contests.
-
I think the stories are funny and actually are more realistic than some of the other crap thrown around here by ex staffers..
Keep them coming.
:wave: :wave:
-
No Problem Greg, below is another Underwood special. This kid was like 10-11 when he went in the Seed. Kid had a druggie attitude. His Sister was in the Seed also. She was a few years older. A Very good friend of mine was married to her about 5-6 years after she got out of the Seed. She wound up a basket case, mentally ill alcoholic, and her brother in prison.
Mr. Nelson is currently in Federal custody. Review his prison histroy and ask how did the Seed help him ?
http://www.dc.state.fl.us/InmateRelease ... =969026032 (http://www.dc.state.fl.us/InmateReleases/detail.asp?Bookmark=1&From=list&SessionID=969026032)[ This Message was edited by: FueLaw on 2005-10-06 07:13 ]
-
well, maybe he isn't a druggie and loves god and country?
Maybe he is more aware than the other prisoners?
Hell, I don't know...
:grin:
-
Hey maybe he'll read this. Maybe he's a computer wiz and find your real name & address. Maybe he'll want to get in touch with you for all you've joked about him here. Who knows maybe you'll wind up buds. One never knows.
-
Dear Art,
Please read this thread.
Your faithfull servant.
GregFL
:grin:
-
On 2005-10-06 07:25:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:
"Hey maybe he'll read this. Maybe he's a computer wiz and find your real name & address. Maybe he'll want to get in touch with you for all you've joked about him here. Who knows maybe you'll wind up buds. One never knows."
Hey, why not? He is a seedling after all. As long as he is working the program now, thats all that matters, eh?
-
Another member of the Seed/Department of Corrections honor role. I was on the front row with this dude.
http://www.dc.state.fl.us/ActiveInmates ... =974943705 (http://www.dc.state.fl.us/ActiveInmates/detail.asp?Bookmark=7&From=list&SessionID=974943705)
-
Man, just how many "successfull graduates" are serving life and/or Death sentences? Or have extended violent criminal histories?
Unreal.
-
well, here is a nice boy from a nice seed family. He was the one that "didn't need the seed", and he hung out with all of us Seed kids in St Pete.
He was one of the very few that somehow passed the sibling intake test and was approved by senior staff to hang with the seed kids.
The wisdom of staff was just amazing!
http://www.dc.state.fl.us/ActiveInmates ... =974945294 (http://www.dc.state.fl.us/ActiveInmates/detail.asp?Bookmark=8&From=list&SessionID=974945294)
-
How many have become Attorneys?
-
On 2005-10-06 07:46:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:
"How many have become Attorneys?
"
More evidence that the seed fucked up.
:grin: :grin:
-
There are plenty more Greg, I am only searching Florida, not federal or any other State. The damage the Seed, Straight and others caused to society in unbelievable. I know of one other case where one Seed grad killed another, while out stealing cars, but he was a juvenile at the time and therefore I can't access the record.
Thanks Art/Libby/Underwood ect....
ps. LOL about the attorney's.
-
Hey greg maybe you can find some that just walked by the building and now are doing time.
:grin:
It makes about the same amount of sense.
-
On 2005-10-06 07:47:00, FueLaw wrote:
"There are plenty more Greg, I am only searching Florida, not federal or any other State. The damage the Seed, Straight and others caused to society in unbelievable. I know of one other case where one Seed grad killed another, while out stealing cars, but he was a juvenile at the time and therefore I can't access the record.
Thanks Art/Libby/Underwood ect...."
well to be fair we can't really blame the seed for the actions of others.
What is true tho is they swore that the seed was the answer to societys' ills, when in fact almost every seed graduate I knew in St Pete started doing drugs and/or other criminal acts after getting away, including some real high profile people that went on to have their families start other seed-based rehabs.
Also, locking up the mentally ill in those stinking hot warehouses with all that psuedo pop psychology and the restrictive and mind bending techniques was a recipe for disaster.
-
Greg,
Now I may agree with you on that one.
-
On 2005-10-06 07:50:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:
"Hey greg maybe you can find some that just walked by the building and now are doing time.
:grin:
It makes about the same amount of sense."
You miss the point again. His siblings were in the program. He went thru an extensive intake process where he was deemed safe and not in the need of the program, and then he was approved to actually go hang out with seed kids on their program, and now he is serving life.
It just goes to show how inept these people were at picking and choosing who "needed" the seed.
-
I was agreeing with your atty comment
-
On 2005-10-06 07:51:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:
"Greg,
Now I may agree with you on that one."
WOWOWOWOWOW
I am speechless,and that doesn't happen often.
:grin:
-
On 2005-10-06 07:53:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:
"I was agreeing with your atty comment"
oops, I take it back.
:grin: :grin: :grin:
-
I disagree, I did not miss the point.
In fact , I think you actually missed it brother.
I think it was about 30 years ago that you missed it, to be perfectly honest.
-
Really? I missed it?
Thank God then, I'm one of the lucky ones!
::cheers::
-
The Seed and it's successor programs hurt way more people than they ever helped. The damage is impossible to determine. The labeled people failures who did not complete the program or who had slips or relapses. Young kids had this drilled into their heads for 12 hours a day everyday. Are you trying to say this did not have a detrimental effect on kids? Are you trying to say that programs such as this did not push some people over the edge? What if a kid was truely mentally ill,how were incompetent staff members,like John Underwood & others, going to help them? The bastards and bitches on staff could barely help themselves how in the world could they really help others?
I think it is rather funny that Seed will take credit for any possible success stories but yet take no responsibilty for any of the failures. Why is that? [ This Message was edited by: FueLaw on 2005-10-06 08:08 ]
-
On 2005-10-06 08:06:00, FueLaw wrote:
"The Seed and it's successor programs hurt way more people than they ever helped. The damage is impossible to determine. The labeled people failures who did not complete the program or who had slips or relapses. Young kids had this drilled into their heads for 12 hours a day everyday. Are you trying to say this did not have a detrimental effect on kids? Are you trying to say that programs such as this did not push some people over the edge? What if a kid was truely mentally ill,how were incompetent staff members,like John Underwood & others, going to help them? The bastards and bitches on staff could barely help themselves how in the world could they really help others?
I think it is rather funny that Seed will take credit for any possible success stories but yet take no responsibilty for any of the failures. Why is that? [ This Message was edited by: FueLaw on 2005-10-06 08:08 ]"
On this I agree. My personal story is that I got MUCH WORSE after graduating the seed because the seed stripped me of all my friends pre seed, then they left me without any. Then my father became such a program fanatic that I had to flee. After that, I became hostile to authority and did more drugs than I would have ever dreamed of before going in the seed.
I finally came up for air at around 20 but the anger and shame of being in the seed stayed for years. In addition, a family rift continued for many years over it.
No, I joke around lot today about it because it is in the past but the seed really screwed up my young life. It ruined my high school, helped cause me to hate authority, and did nothing to keep me "straight".
I agree also that if the seed is going to point to every person that "made it" and take credit, than they damn well need to own up to the failures as well. Also, using that first and most important rule, drop the outlandish 90% "success" claims. THAT is one of the biggest crocks ever to come out of that place, and was based on mistruths and wishfull thinking.
-
On 2005-10-06 07:59:00, GregFL wrote:
"Really? I missed it?
Thank God then, I'm one of the lucky ones!
::cheers::
Me too!
You can't credit or blame the Program entirely for either good or bad outcomes.
Some people just didn't get the promised help and may have lost family support, vital time at a critical developmental phase in their lives, educational oportunities, etc. Others lost years or even decades in devotion to the cult. Some, like my dear brother, have dedicated their lives to the stepcult, even rejecting blood family over it, despite a lifetime of serious issues not present prior to the first round of intense indoctrination.
Some people DID get just that fucked up and remained so. Or made permanent, serious mistakes as a direct result of their involvement w/ a cult. I just talked to a lady the other night who lost a friend around 15 years ago. He was a Program graduate who, it was rumored, had stepped over the line and used forbidden drugs. As a result, his family kicked him out, all the friends he had had (Program grads) abandoned him, wouldn't even talk to him. Within a week or two, he closed himself into a garage, started the car and sucked on the tailpipe till he died.
People who knew him attibute that entirely to the total shunning mandated by the Program (all for his own good, of course). And now those people who knew and loved him and who helped completely demoralize him have to live w/ the question of how much their fidelity to the program over him contributed to his despair.
Myself? I can't imagine a scenareo where I would have landed up pregnant by the jackass I did wind up with, except that I was completely untethered and alone, looking for anything to hang onto. But I can't really complain; the baby is now a beautifal and baudacious young woman of whom I'm very proud and some of the losers relatives have become some of my best friends. All in all, not knowing what may have been behind door #1 or #2, I wouldn't change a thing.
Now, any of this can be overcome. I'm living proof. But that doesn't mean that the Program influence is benign, far less that it's usually helpful. As far as I can tell based on the people who have weighed in on the issue over the years, it's been a destructive force in most people's lives, though most have proven themselves resilient enough to overcome it.
Somebody, who often likes to pretend nobody knows his name, keeps calling me vindictive, even jealous (LOL) for my persistant criticizm.
It would be nice, and I don't deny it, to see some vindicatin; to have my college fund and inheritence and my childhood home back, to have my family not so divided and all the rest. I don't deny that. Who among us is really that far above it all? But it's not a realistic expectation. I never thought it was. What I'm after is much more practical. What I'm after is as simple as getting the truth out about these methods of "treatment". If you guys will kindly quit selling this toxic snake oil, I'll thank you for that. But I don't expect it. So do expect for me to refute your wild claims and to give support and assistance to anyone else who's willing to do so.
in 1966, C.S. Lewis wrote:
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of it's victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busy-bodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those that torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people.
--James Madison, U.S. President
-
Ginger!
What a well written, well thought out reply!
I am 100% in agreement with everything you said.
-
On 2005-10-06 08:06:00, FueLaw wrote:
What if a kid was truely mentally ill,how were incompetent staff members,like John Underwood & others, going to help them? The bastards and bitches on staff could barely help themselves how in the world could they really help others?
I would stop short of calling most of them bastards and bitches. At least, right now given the thoughtful tone of the current conversation. I alwasy believed that they believed, and do to this day, every last word they said/say; even when they directly contradict themselves, even when they do it in the same breath.
The trouble was never that they were out to do harm to us. It's that they were, and some remain, totally delusional. They confused forcing confessions and professions of gratitude w/ actually effecting positive changes in their young charges. And they still do to this day. It's just exactly the same as the way a wife or child beater will beat professions of undying love and devotion out of his victim and then take that as proof that he's a great guy. If the victim ever deviates from that line (or if he even imagines or suspects any infidelity), well then the beatings will continue until the crying stops.
I think it is rather funny that Seed will take credit for any possible success stories but yet take no responsibilty for any of the failures. Why is that?
See above.Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest.
Mahatma Gandhi, My Autobigraphy, p. 446
-
Dear Art, Shelly and others,
Thank you for everything. I really was a drug addict before I came in the seed. Really. I shot heroin and had a criminal record. I was a big scary guy,and I was on the path of destruction. No one liked me, my family had given up, and the legal system was about to lock me up for years. These facts are indisputable.
However, I had a much bigger problem that you so graciously allowed me to solve. How do I explain this?
The group was so accepting of me, helping me with my social issues. Eventually this problem dissapeared altogether.
Okay, I did return to hard drugs and continued with my addiction issues once leaving the seed, but my biggest problem has remain solved.
You, Art Barker, are a miracle worker. Sure, eventually the seed and I parted ways, but I never forgot what you did for me.
You cured me of being black.
For this I will always be gratefull.
Arthur
-
Greg I guess its you who have made such mockery of legimate human beings lives. Its amazing to me how guilty you and Antigen are of making the same accusations that you make of others.
Alot of lives were helped at the seed. You speak nothing of this. Only that they are cult followers or zombies or ass wipes. I guess its a shame that you never saw the good, there was alot of good to see. I never said I thought the Seed was perfect, far from it. Its principals made me into a human being that I'm proud of. I guess thats what counts in the end.
-
Antigen, What program was that? I thought this is the Seed Discussion Forum. Are you being delusional again and thinking that you were on the program again? I think you were just accusing some of us of doing the very same thing?
Could it be all the years of cannabis are having ill effects? I'm just assuming?
Once again my dear The seed was the seed and straight was straight. Keep saying it to your self over and over . Some day it may sink in, but I doubt it.
Your a very angry person and probably always will be, from what I've seen.
The seed did change alot for the better as time went on it moved on. Maybe you shoud too.
-
No, that's you being delusional again, trying to convince us all that Straight was nothing at'all like the Seed.
If you can locate my oldest brother in a lucid moment (not an easy task, by any means) you can ask him about the impact of getting booted from the family on Art's recomendation.
Government can do something for the people only in proportion as it can do something to the people
Thomas Jefferson.
-
Sure it was a copycat program. That doesn't make it the same. Have you ever seen a sequel of a movie, usually its not quite as good as the original. I never said they wern't anything alike. You have twisted it around again.
-
Wow, this thread turned out somewhat different than I thought it might, but it has certainly been interesting.
After reading the tales of woe of former Seed graduates who ended up in prison for terrible acts, and the pro and con Seed discussion, and the fake Seed letters, I guess a couple of things come to my mind:
1. It is very difficult to prove what the Seed 'caused' - just because someone graduated and has a wonderful life, or a terrible life, you cannot prove or disprove that there is a direct link. At best, you'd have to compare the population of kids who entered the Seed in the 70s or 80s with others who didn't, and correct for the fact that many Seed kids did come through the courts or because they had problems, drug or otherwise. Also it is true that many like myself came in for 'attitude.' That would be an interesting study. I would guess that probably some people did stop using drugs due to the Seed's intervention, and some probably went out to lead better lives (althought they may have done so in time anyway). I am also guessing that there was a group of kids who left the Seed and went on to get into trouble; some will say that is due to the Seed but I think it is only anecdotal. I don't know if the 'toughlove' approach advocated by the Seed would have been severe enough to be directly causitive. I think it would be tough to prove, unless there was abuse sufficient (more than what I observed and experienced).
2. Hardly anyone wrote a sincere letter to Art, but I appreciate those willing to do so in a public setting. Anybody else want to give it a try?
-
You just keep on telling yourself that...
Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves
--Ronald Reagan
-
Sorry I don't believe I know that brother. Maybe he did say that - what are you really saying? You are still hurt over it? I,m sorry that your family unit was so messed up. I don't know what to say about it. I guess I got lucky. My parents both divorced when I was 24 or 25. My dad went to AA. My mom inherited money from an Aunt. They both were happy. My dad passed away about two years ago. At the funeral Mass the whole church was completely filled mostly with AA folks that he knew throughout the years. Many came up to me and told me what a help he had been to them. I was quite touched by the whole experience. I had never been to one of his meetings, ironically he had never stepped foot into the seed either. I get along great with all of my siblings (one was in the Seed) but has not stepped foot in the seed since she was 17. She is one of my closest friends. She has no ill feelings against the Seed. She is very sucessful
and has a glass of wine every now and then. My one brother that I see the least is a baptist minister :scared: (yep) has eight kids and 4 grand children. (How this happened to a fine catholic family I have no idea) Two are married to Ministers. One is a missionary in China. My other brother is a teacher and the other is a fireman like my father was. We all worked everything out I'm happy to say. In fact my brother sister and myself just bought a boat together. We plan to go skiing soon. I'm very grateful to have my family and count them as a blessing every day. I did have to work at making the family thing work out and so did they. It was worth it.
-
On 2005-10-06 09:42:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:
"Greg I guess its you who have made such mockery of legimate human beings lives. Its amazing to me how guilty you and Antigen are of making the same accusations that you make of others.
Alot of lives were helped at the seed. You speak nothing of this. Only that they are cult followers or zombies or ass wipes. I guess its a shame that you never saw the good, there was alot of good to see. I never said I thought the Seed was perfect, far from it. Its principals made me into a human being that I'm proud of. I guess thats what counts in the end.
"
Well, you guess wrong.
Sorry
Why don't you acknowledge the people who were harmed by the program? I have publicly stated that I think some people were helped, contrary to what you say. I have even named specific people I thought were helped.
Why do you feel the need, 30 something years later, to frame everything in black and white? Why do you mostly attack the messenger and hardly ever have anything of any depth to add to the discussion?
Focus those hyper-critical seedling skills onto yourself once in a while.
GregFL
-
Greg was that you?
In answer to your question. I do Greg, believe me I do. Thanks for asking.
-
And congratulations that the seed didn't rip your family to shreds. It did mine. You shouldn't discount those that this happened to, it is a bad trait.
-
Somone please, another Dear Art Letter.
I haven't laughed in at least an hour!
:grin:
-
Sorry but I think your family might have done that to themselves wern't your parents in the middle of a divorce or just recently divorced when one of them put you on the program. I sorry that they used you as a pawn. I'm speculating but I think I'm right.
-
On 2005-10-06 10:58:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:
"Sorry but I think your family might have done that to themselves wern't your parents in the middle of a divorce or just recently divorced when one of them put you on the program. I sorry that they used you as a pawn. I'm speculating but I think I'm right."
And here you go again!
You have zero knowledge of my family. Your fishing and speculating just to divert any criticism of the seed back on the speaker. FYI, BOTH my parents were already remarried before this Con Job infected my family.
I guess this is a side effect of all those years listening to that bullshit being thrown around down in lauderdale, eh?
-
On 2005-10-06 09:54:00, Ft. Lauderdale
The seed did change alot for the better as time went on it moved on.
"
Tell that to the people who devoted 20 years to the con job, celibate and alone, believing these people were their friends and family, all the while scrubbing the toilets of Art and staff while these people got rich and they got diddly squat out of it.
It didn't get better, it just got weirder and little less hostile.
-
Dear Art,
Please please please, have Shelly read you this thread.
Thanks!
GregFL
:grin:
-
Hm, yes, there was trouble on the homefront, always. But not anywhere near as serious before the program as after. Not that you'll bother reading or sincerely considering what I have to say, but for the benefit of other readers, I'll fill in some of the details behind your open (loaded) question.
Yes, like most trouble parents who get sucked into this scam, my parents were under extreme duress when Art pitched them. They were in the midsts of a divorce around that time. It's pretty much as Thom says; the primary issue (as I've always undersood it) was Dad's temper along w/ Mom's insistance that it was all the fault of the beer. One caveate, though. I only have my mom's side of it. Part of Dad's honor code was to never, ever, under any circumstances talk smack on Mom or even to allow it within his hearing. Even his old friend from way back, like mid `60's or so, didn't have a clue what the trouble was, just that Dad would cuss under his breath and change the subject whenever the topic of my mom came up.
And, true to form, Art sput it to his advantage. I remember very early on getting my hackles up when the alleged adults would talk about how my dad had chosen his drinking buddies over his own sons. This was simply not true, and the lie was transparent even to a 6yo. The truth was that, like any sane adult, he took umbrage at being interrogated, accused and ordered around in his personal affairs by a 16yo druggie and stormed out of the "checkout interview" cussing about Art, the professional alcoholic.
Unknown to my dear brother at the time, Dad continued to come around the house to visit me and my sister on his lunch hour almost every day. And he continued to pay child support, as well as soliciting funds and other donations for the Seed. See, while he wouldn't accept disrespect or belittlement from you turkeys, he completely bought into your fear-mongering over the "counterculture". In fact, I'd say he may have been even more strident about it.
I can't explain the descrepency. But Thom remembers Dad as having been absent for a long time. I remember the shack in the tomato field where I-95 now meets, I think, old Copans. I remember the 3 salvaged refrigerators in it, each stocked w/ a different brand of beer for his friends. And I remember the 6'+ rattle snake that he killed and skinned and hung from the old Slurpee truck he used to drive around town. I could go on and on w/ fond (and some not so fond) memories of my dad's continued involvement in us kids' lives. He pretty much involved himself just about as much as the situation would allow.
Then came my induction. John says he was right there lobbying to have me put into the Seed. Failing that, I know he was right there for the ride to Sarasota, month after month, year after year. Toward the end of that, they actually remarried for the express purpose (austensibly, of course there's always more to it) of pulling together in an effort to straighten out their last remaining druggiekid.
That lasted till about 3 weeks after Mom didn't have me to kick around anymore. W/o me to work on, she turned all of her toughlove attention onto him. That ended w/ a phone call from her outlining his plans for the rest of the day (hearing aid, job interview, punctuated by various forms of "WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN DOING ALL DAY?! I'VE BEEN TRYING TO CALL YOU ALL MORNING!", etc.) and a coffee cup thrown accross the room w/ such force as to become embeded in the drywall.
About 3 days later, I ran into Dad back in Pompano. Eventually, they formalized the second seperation into a divorce and we all lived relatively happily ever after.
Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet.
--Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor
-
On 2005-10-06 10:16:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:
"Sure it was a copycat program. That doesn't make it the same. Have you ever seen a sequel of a movie, usually its not quite as good as the original.
Ever seen the "dawn of the dead series"
Same ole shit movie after movie... Except that last one of course...much better than the original!
:grin:
What the hell do movie sequels have to do with anything? Straight, Inc. was the seed, minus Art Barker and some other egomaniacs. that is all. The original staff members were Seed graduates, the staff was all seed parents, and the intake lady was the seed's intake lady.
same exact stuff, same problems, same success stories, same people complaining about broken families, same people claiming it saved them.
Here is an exercise for you...name one significant difference between the Seed model of treatment and the modalities of Straight, Inc.
Thank you in advance. Checks in the mail.
-
You liked the last one? The one that was just at the movies in the last month or so? Sorry- I walked out. It was land of the Dead. Even had a good Director Romero. God, even with Simon Baker & John Leguizano it still sucked as far as I'm concerned.
Your right I didn't know your family- but I think they did use you as a pawn, no matter how much I know about it.
We will never even meet half way on anything.
I'm wasting my time. Its not worth it. I've got better things to do.
-
What, a new "dawn of the dead" sequel coming out today?
I here this one will be REALLY good!!! They finally made the proper improvements and got it right this time!!
:grin: :grin: :grin:
Fight,Disagree, Bicker, whatever, I still like you Ft Lauderdale.
GregFL
-
On 2005-10-06 12:03:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:
We will never even meet half way on anything.
Not true, not in the least. All but maybe a few critics have conceded that your intentions were good. You're welcome, btw. I've often stood all alone in believing that it was never just about the money. We all agree that some people benefited from the experience. Not just in the sense that we'll take your word for it, but in the sense of having gained new insight and understanding from individuals telling us about their own experience. I still think it's more about adversity having made them stronger than anything else. But I think that meets the standard of meeting you halfway.
I'm wasting my time. Its not worth it. I've got better things to do."
Can you just take a stab at answering the question? I realize you're at a distinct disadvantage w/ me and Greg here. After all, you had no contact w/ those rebellious, awful, bogus Seedling wannabees after Art instructed you to treat them like splits and withdraws. But please, if you're so thoroughly convinced that your right and we're wrong about it, can you just make an attempt at explaining why?
Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
--John Adams
-
Walter, I'm sorry, I missed your post in all the excitement and flurry.
On 2005-10-06 10:32:00, cleveland wrote:
I am also guessing that there was a group of kids who left the Seed and went on to get into trouble; some will say that is due to the Seed but I think it is only anecdotal.
I agree w/ you that it's anywhere from difficult to impossible to sort out cause and effect. On that, I hope, we can all agree. But here's a grain of salt for you in the form of a personal anectdote.
What kind of effect do you think Program culture and all those open meetings might have on the mind of a little kid such as I was? I can tell you some of it, the rest is anybody's guess. For one, I was never allowed anything close to a normal relationship w/ ... well, with anybody. Non-Seedlings were taboo, even at age 8 or so. I couldn't confice my real thoughts, feelings or difficulties w/ family, either; not w/o running the unthinkable risk of being deemed a soon-to-be-druggie and getting a dose of the "treatment". So I was just about the most lonely little girl imaginable and I couldn't even confess to being lonely. After all, I had the whole Seed family to call my own... yadda, yadda, yo know how that goes.
Second, I got a lot of my worldview from the Program. After all, I had no other sources and there was all KINDS of pressure to accept Art's fantasy as reality.
Take, for example, the intended effect of all those newcomer and oldcomer introductions vs. the unintended consequences on an impressionable little kid. The intent, of course, was to shock the squares in the audience w/ all the raunchy details of druggied teenaged girls gone wild. To me? I heard over and over again about stealing the family car, doing drugs, hitchhiking around the country and being permiscuous. And I believed as I was told (of course I did! I was a little kid) that that was THE alternative to being a good little Seedling. When the pressure became too much, I took the only alternative I knew of. What a fucking wakeup call that was!
Where I had been the weird, loner geek in school up until then, THAT made me a total pariah. The week or so that I attended highschool between my grand adventure as Queen of the Road and my intake at Straight, kids who used to treat me rather decently actually turned and walked the other way when they saw me coming. My behavior, which I took entirely from all those "whenIwasadruggieeeeee...." stories was completely enexplicable and frightening to my schoolmates. They just didn't know how to deal w/ that.
So thank you, Art, for sharing your wisdumb and worldview. If it hadn't been for you, I might have just grown up like a normal kid and, like most our former family friends and neighbors, graduated highschool, married a local boy, raised kids, gone into business, etc. I must say (and I'm only being half snide here) this path has been, by far and away, more interesting, even if it has probably been more difficult. Either way, here I am today. I wouldn't want to change one detail for fear of never even knowing the joys of living the life I have now.
I give money for church organs in the hope the organ music will distract the congregation's attention from the rest of the service.
--Andrew Carnegie, Scottish-born American industrialist and philanthropist
-
Ginger,
I can't imagine being a little kid and being around the Seed. I rarely hear you talk about the feelings of excitement, closeness, and 'we're changing the world!' but you must have felt some of that, too. I know I did as a cynical 19 yer old. Lauderdale feels that to this day. But anyway, there is a reason that we all became Seedlings, it was very attractive to us to be a part of something and to stand against society. And also we were scared of the alternatives. But you were a kid, so it was a very different thing for you.
I try to remember that at one time, I really believed (or tried hard to believe) everything I learned at the Seed. The fact that I question those things now, and believe that many of the rules and unsaid behaviors that I followed then were wrong or only half-right; that doesn't change the fact for me that I was a part of it. I believed it; I lived it. (Greg really captured the feeling of it in his first post about riding down the street in his oldcomer's car with a Seed Loves You plate and with his smokes rolled into his sleeve. Great post, Greg!)
But anyway, I am really the same essential person now as I was when I was telling everybody I loved them and they had to get straight. I wasn't a zombie, I was just being loyal. That was my life. What I do has changed, but who I am has not (hopefully I am a bit wiser). Do you know what I mean?
So, I can't be all, 'The Seed Sucks' or 'I love the Seed' - I did love it, and it sucked. Make sense?
Anyway, you were a kid, so it was different I am sure.
W
-
Antigen, I really can't understand your question and you said ..."So thank you, Art, for sharing your wisdumb and worldview. If it hadn't been for you, I might have just grown up like a normal kid and, like most our former family friends and neighbors, graduated highschool, married a local boy, raised kids, gone into business, etc. I must say (and I'm only being half snide here) this path has been, by far and away, more interesting, even if it has probably been more difficult. Either way, here I am today. I wouldn't want to change one detail for fear of never even knowing the joys of living the life I have now."...
I'm being serious, with everything that was going on in your family do you really think you would have had just a regular old everyday childhood and Beave & Wally would have just been the big brothers you always wanted and Ward and June would have given you her pearls someday? I'm not being sarcastic. I think things still would have been wierd. I'm glad I got out of my family when I did and glad I got reinvolved when I did. I remember my father before he went to AA calling me at the seed because I quit college and he was telling me I was suicidal over and over again between burps. I told him to Fu-- off. I had nothing to do with him for a couple of years. My own mother ripped me off of a small trust fund. I didn't spk to her for years either. Its all water under the bridge now. It seems like that was another lifetime. My family was never normal. My mom was in and out of nuthouses when I was a kid. She'll be 80 this year more sane than ever. I don't get it. She just needed a few bucks in her pocket to make her feel right about herself and believe me it really made the difference somehow.
Normal what the fu-- is that?
I guess I have it as normal as ever now and like you I would not trade a minute of it for what I have now. So maybe that is the Middle ground.
Greg, this may seem odd, but I know we would have been friends at the seed. I like you too. I said it before. You have just the right amount of smart ass to be fun. (Ok maybe a little too much)
-
Sorry for all the stuff Walt. I just hated the fake letters.
-
On 2005-10-06 13:17:00, cleveland wrote:
"Ginger,
I can't imagine being a little kid and being around the Seed. I rarely hear you talk about the feelings of excitement, closeness, and 'we're changing the world!' but you must have felt some of that, too. I know I did as a cynical 19 yer old. Lauderdale feels that to this day. But anyway, there is a reason that we all became Seedlings, it was very attractive to us to be a part of something ...
You are from a different era and of a different age than most of us from the early 70s.
The average seedling in the seed's heyday, and 1973/74 Was the seed's heydey, was a kid involuntarity held against his will about 15 or 16 years of age. There were also the exceptions, young adults up to say 22 (usually court ordered for serious offenses) and kids as young as 9.
But the seed once upon a time was really almost entirely non-addicted kids being held against their will because they were "druggies". All that idealism quickly vanished on graduation when the average seedling tried to regain his or her life and fit in with junior or high school life.
(they admitted somewhere around HALF of all seedlings EVER admitted during this time).
-
On 2005-10-06 13:36:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:
"Sorry for all the stuff Walt. I just hated the fake letters."
And I really thought they were GREAT!
:grin:
-
BTW Walter, anyone who describes seedlings as "zombies" really is way off the mark.
I was a seedling. There was a time I bought into it hook line and stinker. Granted, it was a short period of time between trying to con my way home and trying to wait out graduation without getting started over.. but hey, I was there also and I was affected by all the hoopla. I believed all that seed army fantasy crap too my man.
Zombie no, but brainwashed yes. how could you not be? The effect of all those combined "techniques" was overwhelming, at least for me, at least for a while.
These techniques are proven to exact a change, at least in the short haul, for most people. There is also an extreme amount of collateral damage, especially for people who are young,overly involved, mentally ill, not addicts, emotionally weak, ego deprived, or any other number of things that can cause someone to negatively react to those extreme conditions.
One size, while working for some, NEVER fit all. That was one of the biggest lies told, that you could just throw your kid in there in the care of Art Y Co and automatically get a new improved version back..all for $250 bucks.
Bullschnit!
-
On 2005-10-06 13:17:00, cleveland wrote:
"Ginger,
I can't imagine being a little kid and being around the Seed. I rarely hear you talk about the feelings of excitement, closeness, and 'we're changing the world!' but you must have felt some of that, too. I know I did as a cynical 19 yer old.
Well yeah, I did. But it backfired on me soooo bitterly that it sort of takes all the glow off of it. More than anything, I'm embarrased and regratful over the way I went around thinking I was better than all those "druggie" kids I went to school with.
So, I can't be all, 'The Seed Sucks' or 'I love the Seed' - I did love it, and it sucked. Make sense?
Perfect sense.
"Replace end user" (The Top Support Call Closer 10 Years Running)
--Bastard Administrator
-
On 2005-10-06 13:28:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:
"Antigen, I really can't understand your question and you said ...
What question?
I'm being serious, with everything that was going on in your family do you really think you would have had just a regular old everyday childhood and Beave & Wally would have just been the big brothers you always wanted and Ward and June would have given you her pearls someday? I'm not being sarcastic.
I know, that's what's surprising. Don't you know that Leave it to Beaver was just a TV show? They had sexless procreation and no toilets. It wasn't real. No such people ever did existed. In the real world (i.e. my neighborhood, my school) plenty of kids had parents who either divorced or should have, brothers and sisters with whom they often fought, sometimes pretty roughly. There was nothing going on in our house that was worse, or even half as bad as, some other families I know of.
That's part of the disconnect here, Lauderdale. You are thoroughly invested in the idea that all those kids who turned up on front row were in dire, dire straits and in need of rescue. That simply isn't true. Most of us were just pretty typical families who's parents became convinced of your view of things. The vast majority of people who grew up in those days did not, as you predicted, land up deadinsaneorinjail. They just... grew up. And, I think, probably better off w/o the cult baggage.
Speaking strictly for myself, I was already impressing some people who might well have opened doors for me. I was all about the entrepreneurial spirit. I was an excellent student, too. But I'll never know how any of that might have turned out. While I was locked away, unable to speak for myself, dear old Mom was busy, busy, busy in her recruiting efforts telling everybody I ever knew and all their parents about how I was a druggie in residential treatment. It was a big blow to me when I got back to my home town. Everyone I looked up or ran into, the fist thing they'd ask me was "how are you doing w/ your drug problem?"
Even my elderly old cousin was obviously frightened of me when I went to visit her. Ironically, that loser who I had hooked up w/ early on wound up working as the handyman in her apartment complex. And he used to bring our daughter along quite often. So she, at least, got to have a relationship w/ Cousin K., even though neither one knew who the other was.
My mom was in and out of nuthouses when I was a kid. She'll be 80 this year more sane than ever. I don't get it. She just needed a few bucks in her pocket to make her feel right about herself and believe me it really made the difference somehow.
You mean, she didn't need the Seed to get through her midlife crisis? Imagine that!
Normal what the fu-- is that?
I guess I have it as normal as ever now and like you I would not trade a minute of it for what I have now. So maybe that is the Middle ground.
Exactly!
Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake when you make it again.
-- F. P. Jones
-
On 2005-10-06 11:25:00, Antigen wrote:
"
Unknown to my dear brother at the time, Dad continued to come around the house to visit me and my sister on his lunch hour almost every day. And he continued to pay child support, as well as soliciting funds and other donations for the Seed. See, while he wouldn't accept disrespect or belittlement from you turkeys, he completely bought into your fear-mongering over the "counterculture". In fact, I'd say he may have been even more strident about it.
I can't explain the descrepency. But Thom remembers Dad as having been absent for a long time. I remember the shack in the tomato field where I-95 now meets, I think, old Copans. I remember the 3 salvaged refrigerators in it, each stocked w/ a different brand of beer for his friends. And I remember the 6'+ rattle snake that he killed and skinned and hung from the old Slurpee truck he used to drive around town. I could go on and on w/ fond (and some not so fond) memories of my dad's continued involvement in us kids' lives. He pretty much involved himself just about as much as the situation would allow. "
Ginger, That was a very informative post, thanks! I did not know Dad came around at lunch time. I'm glad you had that time with him. When I made mention before of my perceived lack of Dad I wasn't really complaining. I figure he couldn't handle being around Mom for various reasons. It probably had an adverse impact on me, but none that I was aware of at the time.
When I could drive, (legally) I had lots of good times with him. We were drinkin'- shootin' buddies for a while. I used to go over to Fobes' house and put away a few cold ones with them. They were funny drunk! I learned a lot about re-loading and firearms from him. It was our hobby together. I wasn't a gun nut, nor am I anti-gun, but I joined him where he was on that one.
One time, he, his Dad, Jim and I went fishing at locksahatchie. The exciting part of that trip was when the motor fell off. Dad cussed a lot, jumped in and a few seconds later had it to the surface, hopped back in the boat, cussed a lot, and cranked it up. I don't remember if we caught anything, but what I will never forget was what a big moment for Dad that must have been, lazy motor excepting, to have 3 generations together in an attempt at enjoying a 'normal' activity. An odd coincidence here was that Sandi's parents ran the restaurant / tackle store out there at about that time. We didn't meet til probably 6-7 years later.
There were uncomfortable moments too. Sometimes I would find him at that little redneck bar on Atlantic pretty toasted, and help him home. It felt strange to be in the role of care taker at 17 or so, but it was rare.
The shack, (The Diamond Club) was located just south of Atlantic (in view of it, at the time, now a bunch of apartments on the canal between) a few blocks west of Dixie. The Diamond Club, as it was previously known, had been a secret card room for city officials, Police Chief for one, and local business men. Not sure of the time frame, likely 40's, 50's 60's.
I think he shot that rattle snake in the shack, but I may be confusing that with a big rat he shot there.
The Slurpee truck was actually a retired mail truck. At one point, after he was fired from the PO, he painted "U.S.Mell" on the side. He would drive by the postmonster's office and wave (single digit).
A true character, that Mac!
Thanks again for filling in some blanks for me. :smile:
BTW, Ginger and Lauderdale, Normal is asettin' on a washing machine and/or dryer. (You couldn't prove that by me, I don't recall ever settin' on either one)
what is 'Screw that little dweeb and his lame attempts at censorship. You can read the damned thing right here:' about? [ This Message was edited by: Thom on 2005-10-06 16:45 ]
-
Ginger, just dropping a brief comment here, i think echoing what Walter said. your comments a few pages back, two long posts, were very well written and explained things quite well. the hardest thing i think is to write a balanced post to such a hard emotional issue.
-
On 2005-10-06 16:27:00, Thom wrote:
I don't remember if we caught anything, but what I will never forget was what a big moment for Dad that must have been, lazy motor excepting, to have 3 generations together in an attempt at enjoying a 'normal' activity.
Would it really have been normal w/o a little cussing? I bet that meant a whole lot to him, though; on the order of checking off a life's goal. According to Babe, Grandpa was always promising to take Dad fishing then never showing up.
I think he shot that rattle snake in the shack, but I may be confusing that with a big rat he shot there.
As I remember, the snake had been out in the field and died rather galantly at the tender mercies of a sharp ho. (have fun w/ that!)
The Slurpee truck was actually a retired mail truck. At one point, after he was fired from the PO, he painted "U.S.Mell" on the side. He would drive by the postmonster's office and wave (single digit).
A true character, that Mac!
Thanks again for filling in some blanks for me. :smile: "
:rofl: In Deed! And remember, Peanuts cause cancer! And thanks for being nice to me. Don't worry about temptation--as you grow older, it starts avoiding you.
-- Old Farmer's Almanac
-
Thanks, Anon!
Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves
--Ronald Reagan
-
On 2005-10-06 16:45:00, Antigen wrote:
In Deed! And remember, Peanuts cause cancer! And thanks for being nice to me. "
You are most welcome. I think the tone of those two long posts of yours Walter referred to, and some recent comments directed at me here lately have given me cause to reflect on my treatment of you and 'the others' Sometimes I forget I'm a well adjusted middle aged adult. :tup:
-
On 2005-10-06 16:27:00, Thom wrote:
what is 'Screw that little dweeb and his lame attempts at censorship. You can read the damned thing right here:' about?
Oh, I just put Betty Sembler's deposition online. There was already some conversation about it. Evidently, someone doesn't want it read or discussed. So they keep filling that topic and some others in that forum w/ code that makes it unreadable.
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
-- Robert Heinlein
-
On 2005-10-06 17:21:00, Antigen wrote:
"
On 2005-10-06 16:27:00, Thom wrote:
what is 'Screw that little dweeb and his lame attempts at censorship. You can read the damned thing right here:' about?
Oh, I just put Betty Sembler's deposition online. There was already some conversation about it. Evidently, someone doesn't want it read or discussed. So they keep filling that topic and some others in that forum w/ code that makes it unreadable."
Thanks, they should have their fingers hacked off.
-
Thanks Thom!
I get the grift of what you are implying, and I appreciate it immensely.
-
" An odd coincidence here was that Sandi's parents ran the restaurant / tackle store out there at about that time. We didn't meet til probably 6-7 years later."
Thom - I don't believe there are any coincidences, just events we may not percieve as important or relevant at the time...
-
Great thread everyone. Lots of thoughtful posts.
-------quote-----
"The seed did change alot for the better as time went on it moved on. Maybe you shoud too."
--Ft lauderdale
-----------------
Interesting. You and John U. are in direct disagreement on this point it seems. It is not so simple as getting worse or getting better, imo. It depends, as always, upon your pov and what you consider as being better or worse. Like Greg, John and others I wasn't actually there in the later years so I can only go on what I've read here from those such as yourself that were. From my own pov, the Seed indeed got better in some ways and worse in others. The biggest improvement to me is the voluntary nature of the later program. No more forcing kids against their will into the program. You also mentioned that hardly anyone got yelled at in group anymore...plus the lack of smoking. I have 0 problem with a bunch of adults getting together and deciding to form a new religion or follow anyone they so choose. This goes for the latter day Seed as well as for such fringe groups as the heaven's gate. As long as no coercion is used...the courts aren't ordering anyone to join up and wear black tennis shoes...then it's their own business. That's a big plus. It's just not my cup of kool-aid and I'd run from such a group as fast as possible.
On the other hand, (again from my own pov) most of the other changes were for the worse in that the Seed became more overtly cultic (elevating Art to near faultless divine status it would seem), status oriented and self-enclosed. If you or others do not regard Lybbi or Art determining who can and can't have a relationship or get married or what sort of career you can have or whether you should have kids or requiring everyone to always be on their program or...well the list is long....as being cultic, then there are (to you) no such things as cults, period. To me, there's something distinctly sick and neurotic about the latter Seed program. At least when I graduated, you were expected to go out and live your own life and make your own decisions. Kudos to John for that at least.
[ This Message was edited by: marshall on 2005-10-06 21:08 ]
-
Your post made me think that people could also say similar things about the Marine Corps. If you were growing up in a bad neighborhood surrounded by hard drugs, gangs and frequent shootings...then either voluntarily joined or were drafted (the bad old days!) into the Marines, you could easily make the claim that joining the Marines saved your life...that you'd be dead or in jail if not for joining.
On the other hand, if you were a kid in a middle-class suburb worried more about getting a high SAT score than drive-by shootings or shooting drugs...& then you joined the Marines (or were drafted)..it would be equally as plausable to claim that joining ruined your life...especially if you found yourself being shot-at...or had little if any effect upon your life. If you were KIA, it would not only have not saved your life, it would be the cause of your death.
Neither person would be lying.
The problem is the 'one size fits all' philosophy. What's good for one might be harmful to another and irrelevant to yet another depending upon our life circumstances. And as Walter pointed out in his post, it is really impossible to know what caused what or whether the Seed saved your life or made it worse. My own life circumstances were such that the Seed at least saved me from serving 5 years in a Georgia prison...and if you'd ever met JJ, you'd know how grateful I am for that!
(JJ was a cock-eyed black guy about 6 1/2 feet tall serving a life sentence for murder and was especially....uh...fond of young white boys that he often attempted to 'seduce' with a butcher knife stolen from the prison kitchen. I narrowly escaped his affections, but given longer time, he might be my life-partner by now. :cry2: )
-
In my era the Seed was a relatively benign place in terms of the 'bad stuff' and had some real benefits for people - the 'good stuff.' So depending upon where you were coming from as a kid, and where you were going, the Seed either had some benefit to you, or a possible down side, if you lost the opportunity to go to college or get married or other good things that might have been coming to you. It is all relative. It seems to me that in the Seed during a rapid growth period (the early 70s) things got a little crazier, and also in later Straight or other offshoot programs (man, kids are getting abused - and I am not talking about eating PB&J sandwiches - I mean rape, physical abuse,etc.)
See, I think the heart of the debate here revolves around human nature. We need to belong! To the degree that we make compromises to belong, we are acting 'cult' like. Almost every human activity, when viewed from the outside, looks ridiculous. So if you dropped down from Mars, and observed a High School marching band, a middle school lunch table, a corporate meeting, a Marine Corp. bootcamp, a married couple arguing, whatever - it would all look absurd. Remember your first day of school? Remember seeing all the cliques, jocks and nerds, cheerleader and freaks, greasers, whatever it was when you were there? Or the first day of a new job? Maybe you are more social than I am, but to me it takes me a while to warm up to new social situations - to decide what parts of me don't 'fit in' and to choose to display them or not.
So whatever cult you choose - be it AA, Baptist religion, the Green Party, NORML, Jews for Jesus - or maybe it's just the cult of your family - to some degree we ALL make compromises. We HAVE to. Don't tell me you don't bite your tongue sometimes with your spouse or your kids to keep the peace or to avoid embarrasmet. Well, when I was a Seedling, avoiding conflict with staff or protecting Art's aura of invincibility was just as important to me.
Now, if we can all agree that our human activity is all a bit cult-like, than we can drop the argument about is the Seed a 'cult.' What we have left is the degree of COERCION. To the degree that I am coerced to follow the dictates of my family, religion, job or friends (and there will almost always be some coercion - even if it's just subtle pressure to conform) I will come to a point where I will sacrifice my humanity. But that will be different for each of us. Joining a street gang or becoming a cop or a Marine has a different standard and intensity than having lunch with my aunt, but it's really just a matter of degree, isn't it?
WE can still debate the value of the Seed or similar programs, but I think it's important that we recognise that both good and bad can come out of this human need to belong.
-
Walt- thank you for your post. Thank you for putting it into a perspective I can understand and relate too. (I tried to use another word other than "relate" but its the right word to use)
:grin:
You see I was a little more pushy than you were or a little more abrupt & abrasive. I may have gotten knocked down a few times but I guess I basically always got what I wanted to a certain degree.
One question, didn't you go to college to become a Respiratory Therapist ( I bet you have an Heimlich Maneuver story or two to tell)
Walter you are the best my friend.
-
Yup, I think we all can agree, Walter rocks!. The Program works on the same basic principles as any other social group. It relies on natural social reflexes to effect control. And It's the coercion, primarily, that makes it awful. That and an (often extreme) imbalance of power.
As a mother, I had near total power of my kids when they were little. They needed me for every little need. The difference is that I needed them just as much; no other kid would do, my kid had to be happy and healthy in order for me to be happy and healthy.
TOUGHLOVE directly contradicts that. According to that doctrine, parents are supposed to pretend (fake it till ya make it) that they don't give a flip how the kid is feeling, their happiness is not tied to the kid's happiness. And any dissent from the Program dogma is to be harshly condemned as manipulation.
The trouble I have w/ the troubled parent industry (of which the Seed was just one tiny little componant) is that it's dogma has been broadly adopted as public policy.
Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves
--Ronald Reagan
-
Ginger,
You are so right about power. Some of it is how you perceive the situation; some of it is force or violence, or the threat of those things.
I think the problem is when you have one group (the 'in' group) lording it over the 'out' group. That sure happened in Jr. High and also at the Seed, and happens to me sometimes today. It's complicated by my self-perception too. If I am feeling 'out' I will be less assertive, more subservient, shyer, whatever. If I am feeling 'in' I will be louder, funnier, more charming, and maybe mean. It certainly plays a role in family dynamics, race relations, politics, and social status.
Everybody probably remembers the famous experiment where volunteers thought they were shocking other people as part of an experiment? Nice middle class people would turn up the voltage because a man with a clipboard and a white jacket told them they should do it. 90% percent of more did it. (I think it was the Stanley Milgram experiment. They weren't really shocking people, but they thought they were.) Anyway, this has been used to show how nice, ordinary people can oppress others if the social dynamics are right.
I think we all need to keep in mind that everyone is susceptible to oppressing others, given the right circumstances. And we might even feel that it is the 'right' thing to do, or that we are 'only trying to help', or that 'this is for your own good.' And because our self-esteem is tied up in thinking we are right, it can be really hard to see ourselves as oppressors. But, we all do it, to some degree or another.
So, if you take the approach, 'the ends justifies the means,' all kinds of terrible things can happen. And very nice people can justify doing these things too (Hello Betty Sembler?)
Walter
Oh and PS Lauderdale; I went to a temporary trade school, sponsored by Broward General, to get certified in Respiratory Therapy. I think it only lasted for two years before they closed it down. It wasn't college, but it was authorized to issue certificates.
-
On 2005-10-07 10:10:00, cleveland wrote:
Anyway, this has been used to show how nice, ordinary people can oppress others if the social dynamics are right.
Yes! Exactly that. Stop me if you've read this, I know I've told this story before. I'll never forget where I was and what I was doing the moment ATF started firing on the Waco compound. I was in an office full of mostly very young, hopefully up-and-coming communications professionals. My desk was right next to the break room. I started noticing an unusually large number of them all fixated on the tv. Then they started cheering like the home team just scored a winning touchdown in the Super Bowl. So I stopped working (it was useless, the whole department.... whole company, I think, had sort of wandered off the job) and asked what was going on.
I just couldn't fucking believe it! Not that our federal government had started fire bombing a little cult compound, that was sort of predictable given the circumstances. But these people's reaction to it! These were, as I've said, mostly young middle class people. Lot of college students; mostly intelligent, ambitious, nice people who pitched in for office birthday parties and such. These were genuinely nice people cheering over little kids getting torched for the entertainment of the viewing audience.
I think I spent all of my political currency (I had been supervisor of the transcription department) by opening my mouth. I couldn't help it, though, and I don't really regret it. I think I did make a couple of dozen people think that day.
That is the nature of group mentality. But it only can get really out of hand and destructive if no one opens their mouths or their minds and questions the direction the mob is headed.
Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die
-- Malachy McCourt
-
Exactly-
Believe me I never thought I would agree with you but here we go. I did always have a big mouth probably my Aries birth right. Anyway for whatever reason, I always basicly did what I wanted and I did right by others at the same time. I never really stepped on two many toes but did butt quite a few heads. I remember Lybbi commenting to someone and saying "I know he (meaning me) always somehow comes out smelling like a rose. She did not like me at all for the last 2 or 3 years. Thats because I was always at some odds with her husband. Thats besides the point. I really did through out the years say what I thought about whatever I wanted. I don't mean that in a cocky selfish way. I really said how I felt about anything. Sometimes I had alot of people Peering at me and it may have been uncomfortable at times but I did what I thought was right. But you see I was practicing what I learned and It did work. You see I really am grateful for the opportunities that I had, and I really did try to put my heart into them. That is why I can defend what I defend. I loved the Seed it loved me back.
-
Could not agree with you more Ft. Lauderdale Things were not perfect but I thought they were dam good.
-
Lauderdale, maybe our buddies here are right about us. I sort of played it the same way on my program to the extent that I thought prudent. I never overtly broke a rule or dissented or disrupted things in any way. My mission and strategy was to prove that I was quite straight enough, thank you, and could take anything they had to dish out w/o flinching. But when it came down to things like food restrictions and other nasty deeds in the host home to enforce compliance in group, I'd take my chances and throw down the gauntlet w/ old staffisms like "leave group in the building". I don't remember ever having been called down on things like that, either.
Here's freedom to him who would read;
Here's freedom to him who would write;
None ever feared that the truth should be heard,
But them that the truth would indict.
--author unknown (circa 1914)
-
Antigen,
Life in the apt's was a blast. There was no shortage of food fun or laughter. This is where there was no comparison to straight. There was alot of love and camaraderie. Alot of Tennis golf vollyball and ping pong. They never made much of a golfer out of me but the rest I lived for. We all got to be quite good cooks also. When I was married I really missed all of it.( If you knew my X you would understand(just kidding).
I really never bought into the save the world thing(believe it or not)but I loved the camaraderie and the friendships that developed.
-
Oh, no doubt. I remember some good times in our house and other settings in the early daze too. But it was a tense, fragile sort of good humor; contingent on one's total devotion to the whole game. And it really and truely was disturbing seeing the changes in my family members. Brainwashed is right on the mark; it's no surprise to me that so many independent observers struck on the same descriptive term.
It may be hard for you to grasp this coming from your point of view. You loved it and were willing to support all aspects of the culture for what you got out of it. For me it was deeply disturbing to see my brothers and their friends just acting... not themselves. I didn't buy that they actually, suddenly, no longer liked Black Sabath and rock concerts.
And I didn't understand. But the tension over it was palpable. Our whole lifestyle changed; people dissapeared from the scene, showed up on front row at open meeting then reemerged w/ a blithe, vacant smile and it was absolutely verboten to express anything but sheer joy over these spooky changes.
Busy, curious, thirsty fly, Drink with me, and drink as I.
-- William Oldys (1696-1761): On a Fly drinking out of a Cup of Ale.
-
:em:
-
On 2005-10-07 11:53:00, Antigen wrote:
"Lauderdale, maybe our buddies here are right about us. I sort of played it the same way on my program to the extent that I thought prudent. I never overtly broke a rule or dissented or disrupted things in any way. My mission and strategy was to prove that I was quite straight enough, thank you, and could take anything they had to dish out w/o flinching. But when it came down to things like food restrictions and other nasty deeds in the host home to enforce compliance in group, I'd take my chances and throw down the gauntlet w/ old staffisms like "leave group in the building". I don't remember ever having been called down on things like that, either.
Here's freedom to him who would read;
Here's freedom to him who would write;
None ever feared that the truth should be heard,
But them that the truth would indict.
--author unknown (circa 1914)
"Hey Ginger,
There were some basic differences in the why?s we did things during our time while we were on the program. I do not mean this with any type of disrespect to you and I can clearly see the origins of your attitudes toward this matter. Perhaps if I had an over domineering mother looking for a place to be a cure all for her young child I might have adopted your same attitude.
I viewed the Seed as sacred ground because I credit it for teaching me valuable lessons in which I still apply and use as my basic foundation. I remember (As a distant memory) the despair and hopelessness I lived with and the only thing that would clear up my confusing was by getting numb toward my overwhelming insecurities and (by than) full blown fears and phobias. I took what was talked about as very important and applied to the best of my abilities. what I was taught and. with what I learned and I noticed as I applied these things so I began to change. I began to laugh and smile again and feel secure with who I was (something that I was never able to do and nothing short of a miracle).
My motives were not just to comply but to understand and to actually change. I honestly enjoyed the people and the companionship. Thought what was being talked about was actually important.
I?ve posted here many times the reasons why I left, the various flaws and hypocrisies that I witnessed during my time and I will be the first to admit I still have a crazy side but, overall the Seed did what it was suppose to do and for that I am forever grateful.
I can go on but it?s Friday. (Happy Columbus Day :smokin: :smokin:
-
Dear Art,
I held my load for 11 years because of you. I didn't masturbate because I was living with a bunch of guys that would have frankly beat my ass over in those apartments if I even mentioned my cock except in the context of how awfull it was to have sex back on the streets, how degrading and humiliating. So I stuffed it for years.
I coped to be sure. I played tennis, golfed, played ping pong, swam, anything and everything to relieve the tension and to take my mind off of the fact that my sexuality was dying a slow death. Sure, I got good at most of those things but something was missing and I was getting this huge knot in my groin area. Meanwhile, I was cooped up with a bunch of men every day and every night and made to feel guilty whenever I even looked at a woman. Talk about a confused message!
Finally I couldn't take it anymore and I split. The first night I was free I was in the motel 6 up in Boca Grande on my way home to see my family that I hadn't spoke to in years. I was sleeping pretty peacefully I must admit and in my dream I saw a beautiful young lady and realized that yes, I was alone and safe from the judgement of all those guys and SPROONG. Quickly I relieved myself and splatted all over. GROSS! I lost 2 pounds right then and there and almost blew my head off.
I knew once again I was back to the land of normal and never did I let a day go buy that I didn't think of sex.
You guys should rot in hell for making me hold that load.
Signed.
Skippy
-
On 2005-10-07 14:40:00, jgar wrote:
"
On 2005-10-07 11:53:00, Antigen wrote:
"Lauderdale, maybe our buddies here are right about us. I sort of played it the same way on my program to the extent that I thought prudent. I never overtly broke a rule or dissented or disrupted things in any way. My mission and strategy was to prove that I was quite straight enough, thank you, and could take anything they had to dish out w/o flinching. But when it came down to things like food restrictions and other nasty deeds in the host home to enforce compliance in group, I'd take my chances and throw down the gauntlet w/ old staffisms like "leave group in the building". I don't remember ever having been called down on things like that, either.
Here's freedom to him who would read;
Here's freedom to him who would write;
None ever feared that the truth should be heard,
But them that the truth would indict.
--author unknown (circa 1914)
"Hey Ginger,
There were some basic differences in the why?s we did things during our time while we were on the program. I do not mean this with any type of disrespect to you and I can clearly see the origins of your attitudes toward this matter. Perhaps if I had an over domineering mother looking for a place to be a cure all for her young child I might have adopted your same attitude.
I viewed the Seed as sacred ground because I credit it for teaching me valuable lessons in which I still apply and use as my basic foundation. I remember (As a distant memory) the despair and hopelessness I lived with and the only thing that would clear up my confusing was by getting numb toward my overwhelming insecurities and (by than) full blown fears and phobias. I took what was talked about as very important and applied to the best of my abilities. what I was taught and. with what I learned and I noticed as I applied these things so I began to change. I began to laugh and smile again and feel secure with who I was (something that I was never able to do and nothing short of a miracle).
My motives were not just to comply but to understand and to actually change. I honestly enjoyed the people and the companionship. Thought what was being talked about was actually important.
I?ve posted here many times the reasons why I left, the various flaws and hypocrisies that I witnessed during my time and I will be the first to admit I still have a crazy side but, overall the Seed did what it was suppose to do and for that I am forever grateful.
I can go on but it?s Friday. (Happy Columbus Day :smokin: :smokin:
"
I'll second that. (except for the Columbus Day thing, because I'm not Columbian)
-
On 2005-10-07 14:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Dear Art,
I held my load for 11 years because of you. I didn't masturbate because I was living with a bunch of guys that would have frankly beat my ass over in those apartments if I even mentioned my cock except in the context of how awfull it was to have sex back on the streets, how degrading and humiliating. So I stuffed it for years.
I coped to be sure. I played tennis, golfed, played ping pong, swam, anything and everything to relieve the tension and to take my mind off of the fact that my sexuality was dying a slow death. Sure, I got good at most of those things but something was missing and I was getting this huge knot in my groin area. Meanwhile, I was cooped up with a bunch of men every day and every night and made to feel guilty whenever I even looked at a woman. Talk about a confused message!
Finally I couldn't take it anymore and I split. The first night I was free I was in the motel 6 up in Boca Grande on my way home to see my family that I hadn't spoke to in years. I was sleeping pretty peacefully I must admit and in my dream I saw a beautiful young lady and realized that yes, I was alone and safe from the judgement of all those guys and SPROONG. Quickly I relieved myself and splatted all over. GROSS! I lost 2 pounds right then and there and almost blew my head off.
I knew once again I was back to the land of normal and never did I let a day go buy that I didn't think of sex.
You guys should rot in hell for making me hold that load.
Signed.
Skippy"
Keep coming, Skippy!
-
:wave: :grin: :grin:
-
On 2005-10-07 06:49:00, cleveland wrote:
"In my era the Seed was a relatively benign place in terms of the 'bad stuff' and had some real benefits for people - the 'good stuff.' So depending upon where you were coming from as a kid, and where you were going, the Seed either had some benefit to you, or a possible down side, if you lost the opportunity to go to college or get married or other good things that might have been coming to you. It is all relative. It seems to me that in the Seed during a rapid growth period (the early 70s) things got a little crazier, and also in later Straight or other offshoot programs (man, kids are getting abused - and I am not talking about eating PB&J sandwiches - I mean rape, physical abuse,etc.)
See, I think the heart of the debate here revolves around human nature. We need to belong! To the degree that we make compromises to belong, we are acting 'cult' like. Almost every human activity, when viewed from the outside, looks ridiculous. So if you dropped down from Mars, and observed a High School marching band, a middle school lunch table, a corporate meeting, a Marine Corp. bootcamp, a married couple arguing, whatever - it would all look absurd. Remember your first day of school? Remember seeing all the cliques, jocks and nerds, cheerleader and freaks, greasers, whatever it was when you were there? Or the first day of a new job? Maybe you are more social than I am, but to me it takes me a while to warm up to new social situations - to decide what parts of me don't 'fit in' and to choose to display them or not.
So whatever cult you choose - be it AA, Baptist religion, the Green Party, NORML, Jews for Jesus - or maybe it's just the cult of your family - to some degree we ALL make compromises. We HAVE to. Don't tell me you don't bite your tongue sometimes with your spouse or your kids to keep the peace or to avoid embarrasmet. Well, when I was a Seedling, avoiding conflict with staff or protecting Art's aura of invincibility was just as important to me.
Now, if we can all agree that our human activity is all a bit cult-like, than we can drop the argument about is the Seed a 'cult.' What we have left is the degree of COERCION. To the degree that I am coerced to follow the dictates of my family, religion, job or friends (and there will almost always be some coercion - even if it's just subtle pressure to conform) I will come to a point where I will sacrifice my humanity. But that will be different for each of us. Joining a street gang or becoming a cop or a Marine has a different standard and intensity than having lunch with my aunt, but it's really just a matter of degree, isn't it?
WE can still debate the value of the Seed or similar programs, but I think it's important that we recognise that both good and bad can come out of this human need to belong.
"
Hi Walter. I agree that there are serious questions about where you draw the line in various human behaviours as to which group is or isn't a cult or how cultic it is. There is no real agreement amongst sociologists or psychologists about this either.
Here's great link that explores this issue of "what is a cult?" in-depth. It took awhile to slog thru it all but it was informative.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult)
Wherever you choose to draw that line, it does seem that the Seed became more cultic as time went on. Yes, that is a value judgement on my part...which is why I said from my own pov. I grew up in rural Kentucky surrounded by some form of this. Lots of my extended family members became involved with small churches headed by charismatic preachers. Many of these guys were very definite about what sort of behaviour was expected in their church. If you didn't conform, you were banished from the church and shunned...much like the Seed. My aunt and uncle were told to get rid of their TV...it's an agent of Satan. No make-up or pants for women. No long hair or beards for men. No rock music...only gospel. Theologically, you were expected to agree with the preacher or leave. Sound familiar? I think that this may be one reason I quickly became disillusioned with the Seed. It looked like the same crap in a different package and struck me very much as a sort of religion.
Again, I have no problem with adults choosing to do this as long as no overt coercion is involved. I've found similar behaviour in some followers of eastern gurus. There are cases where the all-knowing guru chooses your spouse and vocation. He or she (most are male) is regarded as semi-divine or perfect and never to be questioned. As you point out, it's human behaviour and not tied to chrisitanity, hinduism or self-help groups. I simply have no desire to be involved with any group that is cult-like to that degree.
And yes, it's a matter of degree. The rotary club may be cultic to one degree and the people's temple cultic to another. In my view, the Seed seemed to travel along those lines from mild in the very beginning to extreme near the end. We all make compromises, but the degree to which we compromise in order to belong does make a difference. It can be like saying; 'well, everyone is basically selfish...it's human nature. Therefore it's OK for me to rob this bank." or " Since all institutions or groups (including families or this website) are cultlike to some degree....there's no difference between being a member of AA and Aum Shinrikyo." This is how the assertion that 'this website is a cult' strikes me. Perhaps we should jettison the C word entirely and come up with a different way of describing cult-like behaviour. It's like the term; "Brainwashing". It has such strong negative connotations and no-one seems to agree on what it means.
It should be emphasized that criticism of the Seed program does not = attacks on the people. John noted that some of his defense of the Seed resulted from his close feelings of friendship with fellow seedlings...as if criticism of the program meant denunciation of the people we care / cared about. I don't think that is the case with most of us.
-
Marshall,
I think the main reason for my post was to emphasize that we can confuse the issue by using a term like 'cult' unless we really agree on the meaning of the term. Also I think it is important to acknowledge the common humanity of all of us who post here as well as of those who started,staffed, attended, and left the Seed. I am not suggesting that everything is equal when it comes to what we give up to belong to groups, but that there are features in common which those different experiences share.
Walter
-
Thanks for the clarification. I saw what you were getting at in regard to defining the word 'cult'. That's why I posted that link. It explores the problems assoiciated with trying to define it and gives several points of view. I do think there's more to it than just coercion though. The Seed seems to have become less overtly coercive as time went on yet more controlling and self-enclosed. Perhaps the coercion simply became more subtle.
You mentioned the In-group Out-group thing in another post. I remembered reading about in- groups and out-groups, the psychology and sociology associated with this when I returned to school as an oldcomer. I also recall that it struck me at the time that it was very descriptive not only of the 'drug culture' but that it was also descriptive of the Seed itself. Us vs Them. Those druggie assholes, etc. Us, special, chosen seedlings with more insight and awareness. Reading and thinking about that was one of the cracks in the wall for me. 'We' can't be special and good unless we compare ourselves to 'them' that are common and evil. All of it seems to arise from insecurity and ego.
Ironically, the relation between these (insecurity and ego) was an insight gained from the Seed raps. I simply applied some of the same rigorous honesty that seemed to be reserved for our druggie past to my seedling present. Like jgar and others have said, I also learned from much that was discussed at the Seed. I think I gained more from it after I left the program though. It was only then that I began to sort out what seemed true and useful from what seemed cultic, mistaken or just irrelevant. If I'd remained involved with the group I think it would have been difficult to form my own ideas about things and grow. We were bombarded with a one-sided or narrow interpretation of such concepts as honesty, ego, images, love, relationships, etc. and told not to pick and choose.
-
Cults share many common traits including but not limited to....
redefining words to give them special meaning.
Exclusionary "member and everyone else" definitions.
Non questioning authority of the group. Questioning or doubting is quickly and severly dealt with.
Automatic love and friendship to members, automatic scorn, Banishment and ostracation upon leaving.
usually a mystical element and/or a religious element that imparts a quality that non-members do not have and often do not understand. (awareness in the seed).
A consensus that pre membership your life was bad, and now your life is good.
Family is secondary to the group. If the family doesn't support and/or join along with you, you are often told to cut contact with them.
A common bonding element Ie: religion, self-help or rehab.
usually a leader that supposedly has special knowledge, special contact with mystical or religious elements, or special capacities of understanding.
This is the short list......
BTW, anyone else have more than a passing interest in the comments by cult member Tom Cruise?
Just look at this guy, he is successfull beyond compare, has a beautiful young wife, a new baby, millions of dollars, and on and on. Yet his thinking is mired down in scientology, he spews forth the scientology line with abandon. His thinking on certain subjects has become the official version of truth as told by the scientology church.
On the flipside, who could possible counter him and say, "see..look how scientology screwed up your life".
It hasn't. Cult membership WORKS for some people. I think that is one truth we should all agree on.
For others it is a disaster. I wish we could agree on that as well.
-
My most persistant thought on Tom Cruise and his new wife is "Oh my god! We're about to watch them sacrifice a baby to their wack 'medical' beliefs."
I hope not, but I don't hold out much hope. There never was a good war or a bad peace.
--Benjamin Franklin, (1773)
-
To parahrase someone else, saying that Tom Cruise is a successful Scientologist is like saying that Albert Speer was the best Nazi.
Ha Ha! And for the record, I detest Tom C. as an actor. He sucks.
But if you visit LA, you will see gorgeous mansions now owned by Scientology - very successful. Someday, it will either fall apart, of maybe become a legit religion. (Sometimes it's hard to see the difference!)
I think Greg's list of cult characteristics can apply to many other groups like cops, Marines, gang members, and cheerleaders. Point well taken though - there are some groups which have clearly crossed the line. I bet many members don't see it coming. I don't think anyone joined Jim Jones' cult just so they could drink the Koolaid.
Walter
-
On 2005-10-08 10:24:00, cleveland wrote:
"To parahrase someone else, saying that Tom Cruise is a successful Scientologist is like saying that Albert Speer was the best Nazi.
Walter"
I don't think that is really a fair comparison, Walter.
First, I detest the rantings of Tom Cruise and to a lesser extent the other celebrity Scientologists. What I am saying is that, like him, hate him, or neutral, he is the living embodiement of a successfull cultist. Those who claim that cult association is automatic doom and gloom are thinking in black and white. :It isn't.
-
BTW, I think his acting sucks too, especially his last movie.
-
On 2005-10-08 10:24:00, cleveland wrote:
I think Greg's list of cult characteristics can apply to many other groups like cops, Marines, gang members, and cheerleaders.
Walter"
Most "gangs" are just rudimentary cults..I will give you that one. The other ones in your list no way, not even close.
-
No, cops too. They're getting more ganglike every day. Especially where you live, Greg. Just pay attention to the similarities in logic[sic] and attitudes among those ones who wear those Wackenhut colors all over the country.
Or ask Howard Wooldridge or any other cop who's come out against the drug war. They'll tell ya'.
But there are definitely degrees of control. And there are other no less important aspects of the whole dynamic. An equitable and mutually beneficial arrangement among any number of people for any sort of purpose can be high demand, exclusive and regimented. It may well even fall easily over the line of most people's definition of a cult. But it's not necessarily a bad thing so long as involvement is voluntary and, as I say, mutually beneficial and equitable.
Here's freedom to him who would read;
Here's freedom to him who would write;
None ever feared that the truth should be heard,
But them that the truth would indict.
--author unknown (circa 1914)
-
cult. But it's not necessarily a bad thing so long as involvement is voluntary and, as I say, mutually beneficial and equitable.
"
Yep, exactly. However, the more coercisiveness in the relationship, the less equitable it is.
The early seed, bringing us back to our common denominator, was way wacked out on this scale.
-
On 2005-10-08 12:02:00, Antigen wrote:
"No, cops too. They're getting more ganglike every day. Especially where you live, Greg.
I really don't agree.
There are abuses for sure, but no where do I see cops approaching cult status.
There are criminals that are cops, but a "cult" of policement just does not exist, in my opinion.
-
oops! that was me forgot to login
-
Well, then how do you explain their sustained dedication to the drug war? I'm searious. I've read a number of times from various high ranking and rank-n-file cops that they cannot speak frankly on the subject while on the force. There would be various kinds of retribution.
That's why there aren't any active duty officers in LEAP, only retired ones.
This I believe: That the free, exploring mind of the individual human is the most valuable thing in the world. And this I would fight for: The freedom of the mind to take any direction it wishes, undirected. And this I must fight against: Any idea, religion, or government which limits or destroys the individual.
--John Steinbeck, American novelist
-
Greg,
Thought you might like this link.
http://www.whyaretheydead.net/ (http://www.whyaretheydead.net/)
If you get me started on Tom Cruise........I think I will need a valium drip. I just loved the interview he said he knew ALL about psychiatry and it was all make believe.....arrrgghhhhh
Guess he got his PHd where Art received his???
Nance
-
I am aquainted with the Lisa Mcpherson case but never saw that link before.
Thanks!
-
I really don't find that humorous Jupiter.
I was there in 1972 when he got his honorary doctorate from Ft. Lauderdale Univ. along with a few others also receiving honorary docs in different categories. Yes he was in cap & gown.
-
" I really don't find that humorous Jupiter.
I was there in 1972 when he got his honorary doctorate from Ft. Lauderdale Univ. along with a few others also receiving honorary docs in different categories. Yes he was in cap & gown. "
You're joking, right? You realize it's not a REAL doctorate Ft.Lauderdale, don't you? Art's so called diploma is nothing more then Monopoly money.
I thought comparing Tom's expertise in psychiatry and Art's in drug rehabilitation is a pretty accurate.
-
Can you read. Accept it it happened.
-
testy testy!
-
Lauderdale, I think you're missing Jupiter's point. An "Honorary" doctorate is absolutely nothing like a real doctorate. Jupiter isn't denying that Art received an honorary doctorate. She's merely saying this is as meaningless from an academic / scholarly standpoint as Mr Cruise's claim to be an expert in psychiatry. If you doubt this simply research the topic yourself.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:
"An Honorary Degree (Latin: honoris causa ad gradum) is an extra-ordinary academic degree awarded to an individual as a decoration, rather than as the result of matriculating and studying for several years. An honorary degree may be conferred by an institution that the recipient never attended. The degree itself may be a bachelor's, master's or doctorate degree ? the latter being by far the most common. Usually the degree is conferred with great pomp and ceremony as a way of honoring a famous or distinguished visitor."
from this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honorary_degree (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honorary_degree)
-
On 2005-10-09 14:18:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:
"I really don't find that humorous Jupiter.
Keep on coming. You'll get it :rofl: The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn
-
On 2005-10-09 17:02:00, marshall wrote:
Lauderdale, I think you're missing Jupiter's point. An "Honorary" doctorate is absolutely nothing like a real doctorate. Jupiter isn't denying that Art received an honorary doctorate. She's merely saying this is as meaningless from an academic / scholarly standpoint as Mr Cruise's claim to be an expert in psychiatry. If you doubt this simply research the topic yourself.
Yeah, not only that, but...
I've kept mum on this because 1) I was only a little kid at the time, and this particular detail didn't really rate permanent memory comital status in my childish mind at the time. Lauderdale, you have a point there, though it doesn't cover anywhere near the teritory you seem to think it does. But I have taken that into more serious consideration since you started harping on the point. 2) I just wanted to see what the adults had to say before influencing the discussion too much.
But that's how I remember it. It was a compliment, good for bragging rights, not ever described as equivalent to an honest to God academic doctorate.
Lauderdale (et al) I think your truculent
response to this really pretty objective statement of fact is either a knee-jerk response to any perceived criticism of your guru or evidence that the story changed over the years.
Which is it?
Religions are all alike; founded upon fables and mythologies.
--Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat
-
Ginger, I watched some interesting shows on the History channel this past week that you might enjoy. They've been doing a whole series on drugs. Last night's episode was on Ecstasy and LSD. I was finally able to see and hear that Bobby Dupont guy you mention here. They interviewed him for the piece. The History channel is usually pretty good at giving both sides of any controversy and they did well here too. The show interviewed several people that suggested that the drug war was really declared against the youth culture movement / new left rather than just drug use. J. Edgar Hoover suggested to Nixon that a good way to undermine the anti-war movement was to concentrate on arresting as many as possible for drug violations. I got a good sense of how the anti-drug panic of the times could have easily spawned programs like the Seed. Your description of it as a culture rehab rather than a drug rehab was right on the mark, imo.
They also interviewed the head of Narconon who claimed that a single dose of LSD ruined his life (he was a math major) and caused him to become a 'barefoot hippie dropout'. (I'm not sure how he accounts for folks like Bill Gates or Steve Jobs though. I've read that both imbibed acid heavily in college.) Others had several negative things to say about the drug war in general. These were respected officials, not junkies. History channel often replays these sort of programs so if you haven't already seen them you might still be able to catch them.
BTW, I tried again yesterday to find that Meadowsweet herb you mentioned. No health food store around here seems to have heard of it.
-
A little off topic, but I knew a guy years back on the Palm Beach County Sheriffs office. He told me that if law enforcement really wanted to get rid of drugs coming through Florida, it would be fairly easy. A few military planes patrolling the coasts and in a year it would knock out about 90%. Now mind you this was in the 70's. Drug runners were not quite as clever as they are today. He was told that would never happen. Guess putting bandaids on problems was all they wanted to do.
I lived in Jupiter and it was routine to hear planes flying low at night. I had more than a few people I went to school with that found missed drops. My little brother even found some floating out off the Hobe Sound area.
-
QUTE: Dear Art,
I held my load for 11 years because of you. I didn't masturbate because I was living with a bunch of guys that would have frankly beat my ass over in those apartments if I even mentioned my cock except in the context of how awfull it was to have sex back on the streets, how degrading and humiliating. So I stuffed it for years.
I coped to be sure. I played tennis, golfed, played ping pong, swam, anything and everything to relieve the tension and to take my mind off of the fact that my sexuality was dying a slow death. Sure, I got good at most of those things but something was missing and I was getting this huge knot in my groin area. Meanwhile, I was cooped up with a bunch of men every day and every night and made to feel guilty whenever I even looked at a woman. Talk about a confused message!
Finally I couldn't take it anymore and I split. The first night I was free I was in the motel 6 up in Boca Grande on my way home to see my family that I hadn't spoke to in years. I was sleeping pretty peacefully I must admit and in my dream I saw a beautiful young lady and realized that yes, I was alone and safe from the judgement of all those guys and SPROONG. Quickly I relieved myself and splatted all over. GROSS! I lost 2 pounds right then and there and almost blew my head off.
I knew once again I was back to the land of normal and never did I let a day go buy that I didn't think of sex.
You guys should rot in hell for making me hold that load.
Signed.
Skippy
Are you sure your name is not Spanky??? :silly:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
:eek: :eek: :eek: [ This Message was edited by: jgar on 2005-10-10 05:38 ]
-
Hey Marshall, try zooscape.com for meadowsweet.
My kids have been watching the History channel series. They're fascinated. I've seen it before. Drug policy reform is finally getting to the point where it's not so fringy anymore. Thank God! But yeah, I really didn't just make it all up. DuPont is one of a group of creepy dudes. Moreso than the Narconon ppl, imo, because they're inobvious lunatics.
Marijuana clearly has medicinal value.
Thousands of seriously ill Americans have
been able to determine that for themselves,
albeit illegally. Like my own family, these
individuals did not wish to break the law but
they had no choice.
--Lyn Nofziger, former deputy chairman of the Republican National Committee
-
and the point remains allusive. honorary or not, cap and gown or mail away for money, was the institution that awarded the diploma accredited at all?
was it really a diploma mill as claimed in the press?
I find it funny that people get indignant over this issue but cant agree on the school or the accredidation or pretty much anything surrounding the circumstances of the doctorate.
-
What I think is so pathetically funny about this debate is that Barker's staunch defenders give so much creedence to Barker's HONORARY diploma when in reality the person who got the honorary diploma was the very person who decided who could and could not go to college. I sure as heck hope these defenders got a chance to go to real college - not honorary college.
The Seed as honorary college - hows that for mind control....
-
skippy, spanky..you can call me whatever.
The point remains that those fascists should Rot in Hell for making me hold that load!
-
On 2005-10-09 15:00:00, Jupiter Survivor wrote:
"" I really don't find that humorous Jupiter.
I was there in 1972 when he got his honorary doctorate from Ft. Lauderdale Univ. along with a few others also receiving honorary docs in different categories. Yes he was in cap & gown. "
You're joking, right? You realize it's not a REAL doctorate Ft.Lauderdale, don't you? Art's so called diploma is nothing more then Monopoly money.
I thought comparing Tom's expertise in psychiatry and Art's in drug rehabilitation is a pretty accurate. "
yes, but the question has remained unanswered. Was the institution a diploma mill, Ie, were they accredited to issue doctorates of any manner.
So far the evidence sways against the likelyhood that this universtity, art institute or whatever could ever issue a doctorate. That is the unanswered question, we all know he had it, and we all know the press called him out for it and called the place a diploma mill.
-
Can anyone find the articule where it states that it was a diploma mill?
-
I have it in my office, but I am in South America right now.
When I get home I will post the reference. I believe it was during one of Arts rants in the press about how pyschiatrists can´t do shit, and then they pointed out his diploma was from a diploma mill that had been shut down by the state of florida.
We still don´t have anything approaching confirmation or denial of this press tidbit, but I think probably the source that awarded him the honorary doctorate had no authority to award any doctorate at all, which is highly suspect.
It would be like me declaring someone an honorary accountant.
Under whose authority?
Whatever the case, I would like to put the doubt to rest about whether or not this was a diploma mill or not.
Something I have noticed during this fiasco, a long time ago some questionable schools existed that were bought up by more reputable schools. As an example, once upon a time the Art Institute had NO accredidation whatsoever. Today, the predecessor corporation issues accredited batchelor degrees.
That still leaves the question as posed by the press account...
Who has the real answer devoid of emotional responses and defensive posture for Art?
-
Okay, I am back, and here is the quote and the reference. The reference being the last line, but I included more text because it is just so damn reminicent of a early 70s Art Barker.
___________________________________________
"Art Barker, Who Wears his bangs cut into a "V" brow that dips almost between his eyebrows, runs his controversial empire from behind a massive, curved desk in his Seed Headquarters outside of Fort Lauderale. He smokes Constantly, sipping coffee between drags, and talks in a rapid New York accent about the evils of drugs.
The office is dark. His windows have been walled against gunshots he claims come from his enemies who are out there in two varieties beyond the 10-foot-high chain link fence, the guards and the high-intensity anti-crime lamps that surround his sprawling cement stronghold.
"they are all either druggies or they are fools", he once said of his critics. Later he softened the view to include the growing percentage of americans who suffer from mental illness. But Barker saves his special venom for psychiatrists like Dr. Raymond Killinger, who has been openly critical of his program.
Killinger, wo works in Fort Lauderale and has never been allowed into the Seed says the he and his colleagues have treated "an increasing number" of young people who emerge from the seed only to enter a psychiatric hospital. Some have nervous breakdowns. A few, says Killinger, have tried to commit suicicce because of Barker's program.
"The man is a liar and a fool" Barker says of Killinger. He claims that "the psychiatrists can't do a damn thing with kids on drugs". Barker got his own degree in psychology from a Fort Lauderdale diploma mill that was closed in 1972 by the state.
______________________________________________
article in the national magazine (now defunct)
"THESE ARE NEW TIMES" 9/8/1974
-
Art was not one to mince words back then. I think I have a solution to the diploma controversy. Can we all agree that it came from a paper mill? ::ribbon::
-
Instead of a consensus on what happened , how about just waiting until we know the truth? There is no immediacy to the answer, it is just of general interest to the entire topic.
-
ok, paper mill. I get it.
Yes, we can agree on that.
-
Barker was a actor and he did a good job of fooling alot of people.
-
Really think so? I think he was a good comic type entertainer but really a pretty poor actor. He fooled a lot of people because they were just beggin' ta' crawl. Never fooled the cop and his wife right accross the street from us or a lot of other people in the neighborhood. Only those who really, really wanted to believe.
Why should we take advice on sex from the Pope? If he knows anything about it, he shouldn't.
--George Bernard Shaw, Irish-born English playwright
-
On 2005-10-27 21:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Barker was a actor and he did a good job of fooling alot of people. "
He was a comedian on vaudeville if I recall
-
On 2005-11-22 23:14:00, landyh wrote:
"
On 2005-10-27 21:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Barker was a actor and he did a good job of fooling alot of people. "
He was a comedian on vaudeville if I recall"
Vaudeville..is that near Andrews Avenue or closer to SR84? :grin:
-
No, I think its closer to Pennsalvania Ave. :grin:
-
Ft. Lauderdale,
I do believe that you and I have finally found something on which we agree. :smile:
Hope you have a great day up here in my neck o' the woods.
Stripe
-
On 2005-11-23 18:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-11-22 23:14:00, landyh wrote:
"
On 2005-10-27 21:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Barker was a actor and he did a good job of fooling alot of people. "
He was a comedian on vaudeville if I recall"
Vaudeville..is that near Andrews Avenue or closer to SR84? :grin: "
For Art it became the backseat of a car in New York in the middle of winter. Perhaps some may find comfort in the image of him shivering there as the Dt's came on each morning. :wink:
-
Honestly, I don't buy the story. Art had a habit of exagerating; specifically, his stories changed over time to better please the audience.
I think maybe he got kicked out from wherever he was staying for being an obnoxious drunk, woke up in his car and that became the legend of Art's stint as a homeless skidrow drunk.
But I'm just guessing. I'd have to hear from someone who knew him when. Oh, and come to think of it, what ever happened to anyone and everyone who knew Art before he ascended to near godhood? How come none of his family or friends, even AA buddies, were a part of his life when we knew him? Strange, don'tya' think?Web pages are like babies -- creation involves a level of enthusiasm that does not necessarily carry over into maintenance.
--Joe Chew
-
I just want to echo that, Ginger. The Seed on SR 84 was a vast, empty building with row upon row of vacant chairs when I was there, '79-'85. There were 20 or so full-time Seed people who came into the group regularly, and a small group of graduates who showed up on ocassion. I never saw Art with a friend or colleague, outside of the core staff members, and in spite of all the talk about the Hollywood connections, war buddies, etc., Art struck me as a lonely person. Also it was so rare that a Seed graduated came back to visit (who wasn't in for a 'refresher') that I can't think of it happening more than once or twice in my 7 years. Art and staff would talk about all of the successful graduates who were off living their lives, while we, the chosen few, kept the temple lamps lit. How come no one wants to visit us? I used to wonder.
-
I just want to echo that, Ginger. The Seed on SR 84 was a vast, empty building with row upon row of vacant chairs when I was there, '79-'85. There were 20 or so full-time Seed people who came into the group regularly, and a small group of graduates who showed up on ocassion. I never saw Art with a friend or colleague, outside of the core staff members, and in spite of all the talk about the Hollywood connections, war buddies, etc., Art struck me as a lonely person. Also it was so rare that a Seed graduated came back to visit (who wasn't in for a 'refresher') that I can't think of it happening more than once or twice in my 7 years. Art and staff would talk about all of the successful graduates who were off living their lives, while we, the chosen few, kept the temple lamps lit. How come no one wants to visit us? I used to wonder.
[ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2005-11-28 06:56 ]
-
Returning to the Seed would be like returning to the hospital where treatment occured after a car wreck.
I went back once to attend an open meeting. It stirred up alot of memories from right before and during the seed experience. It was not like visiting my old college campus.
IMO treating drug addiction is admirable but a dirty businees and part of the requirement is almost a paranoid skeptism to deal with the all the tradegy, bullshit, manipulation and conning many addicts effortlessly generate. Art was no saint, and definitely type A. But how nice can you be in that field?
-
On 2005-11-26 10:21:00, Antigen wrote:
"Honestly, I don't buy the story. Art had a habit of exagerating; specifically, his stories changed over time to better please the audience.
I think maybe he got kicked out from wherever he was staying for being an obnoxious drunk, woke up in his car and that became the legend of Art's stint as a homeless skidrow drunk.
But I'm just guessing. I'd have to hear from someone who knew him when. Oh, and come to think of it, what ever happened to anyone and everyone who knew Art before he ascended to near godhood? How come none of his family or friends, even AA buddies, were a part of his life when we knew him? Strange, don'tya' think?Web pages are like babies -- creation involves a level of enthusiasm that does not necessarily carry over into maintenance.
--Joe Chew
"
Must we disrust all? My own experience with alcohol led me very close to its furthest depths and very quickly. There is no question that I am aware of as to Art's Alcoholism. Why is it hard to believe that he experienced some of the worst of that world. What some who are not involved in AA may not realize is that in early AA most of the members were typically serious drunks. Not like today with many coming in before things get to bad. He almost had to be in that class of "low bottom" drunks just to have gotten there. I know enough drunks to know that we seldom have need to exagerate our experiences to make them bad enough. They already are. Of course things can be skewed by personal perspective but I have no reason to think that Art had to stretch his story to make it worse do you?
-
Why is it hard for me to believe Art? Landy, because Art lied a lot. A WHOLE lot. He had both of my parents convinced that all the teenagers (including us) were druggies and that he had the 99% successful, only cure for it. I bet he believed it, too. Still wasn't true.
It sucks when decent, hardworking people get screwed over like that. Because that means pricks like us don?t stand a chance.
Jim S. watching the devastation of the recent tsunami on the television at JR?s
-
Watching my mom 'bottom out' taught me more about alcoholism than I ever wanted to know. She lost her career, friends, house and ended up in a hospital near death. All the time, denying that anything was wrong. Or that she drank too much. It was everyone else's fault. I would have sent her to Abu Graib for treatment - that's how desperate I was. It makes me understand those who pooh pooh the seed's constraints and limititions. Without agreeing...
-
On 2005-11-28 12:20:00, Antigen wrote:
"Why is it hard for me to believe Art? Landy, because Art lied a lot. A WHOLE lot. He had both of my parents convinced that all the teenagers (including us) were druggies and that he had the 99% successful, only cure for it. I bet he believed it, too. Still wasn't true.It sucks when decent, hardworking people get screwed over like that. Because that means pricks like us don?t stand a chance.
Jim S. watching the devastation of the recent tsunami on the television at JR?s
"
I just don't remember it that way. Nor do I think it is that black and white. I honestly don't know if Art's story is 100% accurate but I just think that blind rejection is just as dangerous as your experiences that feed it. It seems that anybody on this forum who happens to be anti-seed paints with as broad a brush as Art did in one sided dedication to the idea that anybody who found i iota of peace in the program is simply deluded by there conditioning. When we try to break every opposing opinion down into neet little categories of cultic conditioning and coercieve treatment all I see is a glass house of no more structural integrity than Art or the Seed itself. Can I reconcile the damage you experienced by simply accepting what I believed to be Art's good intentions. Of course not. Not when I hurt for you as I do. Am I so simple as to believe that Art's belief that he was speaking the truth as you say completely justify the end results you lived. Absolutely not but I also see that he had little choice but to live in those convictions because he didn't see anything else. I think we can agree that he did believe in what he was doing and that his drive was motivated by an almost blind obeyance to those beliefs. All I am saying is that those of us who are tempted to boil this down to such a simple level on either side of the issue are no better or even different than he was. And nobody seems to offer anything better in the way of a solution. i suppose my understanding of Art's disrust of the Psychological community is just another example of how brainwashed and conditioned I was. It couldn't perhaps be the result of how they failed my mother, failed me with there inkblots and questions. Gave me the gold seal of the psychological communtity because I knew how to answer the questions correctly. Sent me on my suffering way without even the recognition of how severely I had been destroyed by my experience. Anecdotal surely but when I went to the Seed they at least could see something was wrong, could at least see elements of the truth that were me. That I didn't reveal the full depth of my own problems was not for lack of effort on there part because on some level (perhaps like Art) I had convinced myself of a truth of my own making. I haven't heard anybody offer a relevant suggestion of any better solution than he offered and I am surely convinced that if there was one it didn't exist in the psychological community in any more than in islolated instances. Unless you want to count the pyschiatrist who shared my moms migaines, who solved his own pain through sleeping with his patients and then suicide and my moms's with an addiction to Talwin that nearly cost her arms to the gangrene that it caused. Ginger you know that I have tremendous respect for the fact that you have responded to my posts with a respect and even maybe acceptance of the possibility that my view is shaped by a truth that exisited at least for a time. In this light much of what I am saying here is not entirely directed at you. More to a theme I see forming that's seeks to fit my experience into some little box that is a one size fits all model no less dangerous than that of Seed itself. I believe that the issues are much more complicated than that. If you have rooted your convictions firmly on one side or the other of the issues we speak here about then you have sacrificed any chance of finding the truth we proclaim to seek. I am convicted of nothing here in any real way. I have simply my experience to proclaim for you to make of what you will. Those who see nothing good or nothing bad about what the seed was and what it became are suffering from their own conditioning in just as real a way as The Seed itself. I beleive the truth lies neither on one side or the other but somewhere in between. If we can listen to each other and guard ourselves from the prison of our own preconceptions we may have some sort of chance at finding at least a piece of that truth.
-
Landy, thanks.
Basically, I don't believe much of what Art said about anything because so much of it turned out to be made up out of whole cloth. He's not a reliable person. He's a known liard. That's all. And, not to put too fine a point on it, but AA and the Seed/Straight programs have a lot in common. For one thing, the process of group intros repeated over and over very often results in the story growing each time in the telling.
I'm really glad for you that you never did tell all to Group. Your instinct was probably right on the mark there. It's one thing to have the strokes and adulation of Group when they think that's the right thing to do. But to trust them w/ the really sensitive stuff? Man, no way! They could turn on you and throw it up in your face just as quick and twice as hard. You probably dodged a bullet there. And I can almost guarantee that whatever troubles you had later were probably not due to your not more fully laying yourself open to them.
All good intentions aside, there's risk in divulging private sensitive information even to someone you know and trust or who's bound by legal confidentiality laws. But to lay yourself wide open before a group of (forgive me but) suggestible teenagers who think they're on a mission from God? No, you made the right call there, my friend.
Guard with jealous attention the public Liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that Jewel. Unfortunately, Nothing will Preserve it but downright Force. Whenever you Give Up that Force, you are ruined.....The Great Object is that every man be armed.....Everyone who is able may have a gun.
- Patrick Henry
-
On 2005-11-28 15:42:00, Antigen wrote:
"Landy, thanks.
Basically, I don't believe much of what Art said about anything because so much of it turned out to be made up out of whole cloth. He's not a reliable person. He's a known liard. That's all. And, not to put too fine a point on it, but AA and the Seed/Straight programs have a lot in common. For one thing, the process of group intros repeated over and over very often results in the story growing each time in the telling.
I'm really glad for you that you never did tell all to Group. Your instinct was probably right on the mark there. It's one thing to have the strokes and adulation of Group when they think that's the right thing to do. But to trust them w/ the really sensitive stuff? Man, no way! They could turn on you and throw it up in your face just as quick and twice as hard. You probably dodged a bullet there. And I can almost guarantee that whatever troubles you had later were probably not due to your not more fully laying yourself open to them.
All good intentions aside, there's risk in divulging private sensitive information even to someone you know and trust or who's bound by legal confidentiality laws. But to lay yourself wide open before a group of (forgive me but) suggestible teenagers who think they're on a mission from God? No, you made the right call there, my friend.
Guard with jealous attention the public Liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that Jewel. Unfortunately, Nothing will Preserve it but downright Force. Whenever you Give Up that Force, you are ruined.....The Great Object is that every man be armed.....Everyone who is able may have a gun.
- Patrick Henry
"
Your quite welcome Ginger.
You are right about being careful about saying certain things. Just for the record I wasn't talking about exposing this stuff to the group. There were a couple of people that talked to me indidvidually and suspected something deeper was bothering me but I was able to keep up a strong enough front that they didn't put undue pressure on me but did leave the door open to talk to them. These are people that left when things started to change. They just wanted to help and I knew that even then. Art was one of the people who gave me the chance to talk to him privately. I can only speculate about what changed things and even him but the man I knew then was compassionate and kind to the furthest degree at least in relation to me. Maybe it was only because I was a child but just maybe that is who he was at the time. I believe it was the later and I don't think any of us will ever truly know. It was made clear that it was between him and I. I just couldn't. I think in the circumstances I'm describing talking would have been productive. Things were really so different. As for now and my wiliingness to talk freely here... that I do for me. It took me a long time to talk about it with anybody and longer still the continuing battle to not feel ashamed or at fault. Talking opening about it helps reinforce for me that it was not my fault and now in spite of a few "insecurites" :wink: I have grown to a place now where I could dismiss anybody who wants to say differently for the idiots they would have to be. In AA though I have never spoke about this to the group, only my sponsor and few select individuals know. I might add it was in aa that I finally found the courage to talk about it and it was because someone had the adacity to talk about his own issues in front of the group. I believe that happened for a reason. He was the first person I was ever able to talk to about it. It has helped and gotten better little by little ever since. Of course I used to think I was alone but over time I've come to learn that many of us who have real problems with substance abuse are individuals who were damaged in some significant way. As for later in the Seed there was no opportunity for the kind of one on one discussions I refered too above. And having once felt the pain of being falsely accused of using by Darlene I have give merit to your concerns. Early on for whatever reason I never saw or experienced this kind of stupidity.
cheers