Fornits
General Interest => Open Free for All => Topic started by: Anonymous on March 04, 2009, 09:59:09 AM
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I was in the gulag long before this gangsta fad began, I'm from a much different era. Snoop Dogg was probably in diapers when I was 15. But this gangsta thing is a monster for those of us trying to fight the existence of these places like Provo Canyon. People just say "well these kids are out there killing people in the streets and joining gangs so why shouldn't these places be allowed to operate?". They should be more vicious because these kids are vicious. How do we fight this kind of argument?
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I was in the gulag long before this gangsta fad began, I'm from a much different era. Snoop Dogg was probably in diapers when I was 15. But this gangsta thing is a monster for those of us trying to fight the existence of these places like Provo Canyon. People just say "well these kids are out there killing people in the streets and joining gangs so why shouldn't these places be allowed to operate?". They should be more vicious because these kids are vicious. How do we fight this kind of argument?
How ling ago were you in cedu then? You must have been their way back.
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Late 70's.
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I was in the gulag long before this gangsta fad began, I'm from a much different era. Snoop Dogg was probably in diapers when I was 15. But this gangsta thing is a monster for those of us trying to fight the existence of these places like Provo Canyon. People just say "well these kids are out there killing people in the streets and joining gangs so why shouldn't these places be allowed to operate?". They should be more vicious because these kids are vicious. How do we fight this kind of argument?
Argument 1: "Gangsta movement" is exaggerated and doesn't exist to any real degree outside of media reports and the ghettos. Not every kid who listens to gangsta rap and talks about "busting caps" would run screaming to his momma at the first gunshot.
Argument 2: Ends do not justify the means. Just because kids treat each other better does not mean that adults can treat the kids badly. Try leading with an open palm by setting an example rather than trying to control with a closed fist*.
*yeah... been playin jade empire recently... so sue me if it has catchy analogies.
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The problem has nothing to do with what you or I think about rap music or anything else. The problem is the stereotype that is in the minds of those who might otherwise help close the gulags and enact reforms. You should be able to see that.
I was in the gulag long before this gangsta fad began, I'm from a much different era. Snoop Dogg was probably in diapers when I was 15. But this gangsta thing is a monster for those of us trying to fight the existence of these places like Provo Canyon. People just say "well these kids are out there killing people in the streets and joining gangs so why shouldn't these places be allowed to operate?". They should be more vicious because these kids are vicious. How do we fight this kind of argument?
Argument 1: "Gangsta movement" is exaggerated and doesn't exist to any real degree outside of media reports and the ghettos. Not every kid who listens to gangsta rap and talks about "busting caps" would run screaming to his momma at the first gunshot.
Argument 2: Ends do not justify the means. Just because kids treat each other better does not mean that adults can treat the kids badly. Try leading with an open palm by setting an example rather than trying to control with a closed fist*.
*yeah... been playin jade empire recently... so sue me if it has catchy analogies.
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The problem has nothing to do with what you or I think about rap music or anything else. The problem is the stereotype that is in the minds of those who might otherwise help close the gulags and enact reforms. You should be able to see that.
It is a cultural battle, I agree. But I think our approach differs in that you are thinking of talking to politicians and so on and so forth when I am thinking of talking directly to parents, often on a one on one basis or from an informational website. I believe that education and media does a hell of a lot more than government.
Different approaches require different strategies. If you're trying to convince government officials, I would start with a paper bag full of money or a hefty campaign contribution. It's not my cup of tea. I'm sick to death of the government and have seen enough incompetence for several lifetimes over to know better than to ask them for help. Far be it for me to get in your way, though... go right ahead.
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I think I'd take any approach to get rid of the gulags, government, websites, media, whatever. Maybe examine the pressure that has currently been put on the gulags and figure out what factors are keeping them running. They are obviously in an information war with sites such as this throwing out all kinds of disinformation. I think if I had that bag of cash, I'd spend it on more support from other forms of media, TV ads along with publicizing and promoting sites such as this. I doubt many people know this site exists especially those who haven't already gone through the gulags. Possibly use demographics, hit states where the Mormons aren't so popular with the stories about Provo and the like - stuff like that. Hit portions of the population who are more educated with these theories that the gulags profess and solicit counterarguments and the like. But you're right, without the money the options are very limited.
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This thread is racist!
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How long have been gangs been around, really? Longer than this so-called "gangsta movement" as dictated by the media. One of the reasons why my parents were so concerned for me was because I was, as my mom puts it, "talking like a black chick." There is inherent racism in placing kids in programs, whether they were involved with gangs or not. Oh shit, my kid's talking like a nigger, and they're white! holy fuck. oh n0z. Latin Kings, Norteno, Sureno, Bloods and Crips, oh my.
In my opinion, you are sure shot pissing up a thread if you think you are going to get rid of gangs. Programs sure aren't going to stop it. I feel that the most effective way to lower gang membership is through early intervention through community efforts, especially by work via reformed gang members. Their words have more weight than anything else, cause they've been there.
But the "gangsta movement" isn't about gangs. That's just a pop-culture thing. It really has nothing to do with gangbanging at all. Gangs run way deeper than what you see on television. In my neighborhood, a lot of gangbangers are second or third generation.. way before all of this bullshit came about.
Real gangbangers are kids of previous gangbangers, and if they're not, their parents don't have money to send a kid to a program. If they get busted, they end up in juvvie.
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I think its all perception....20 year ago parents were putting their kids away for wearing black and listening to Ozzy Osbourne. Now they use "Crazy Train" to put an edge on the 4 door Toyota Corolla commercial.
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Real gangbangers are kids of previous gangbangers
Can't wait for somebody to claim that behavior is a "disease" since it's obviously genetic. lols.
Gang Bangers Anonymous
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Herein lies the main problem in our society, the media induced social hysteria. Todays (and yesterday's) parents get so worked up and worried that their child is going to fuck up their picture perfect vision of a "family" that they literally go crazy. NUTS. Hence the desperation we hear so often from their excuses. The problem is not the risky, experimental nature of the teenager, its the parents who react so harshly to a normal phase in a young human's life. I really don't think a suburban teenager could really have mastered a full blown drug addiction let alone real gang banging, that whole concept that these kids are "headed down that path" is just preposterous!
My mother recently told me, as she usually does when we speak about the program, that her reason for sending me to the program was that I was "worrisome" to her....lol. True story, there was a time that one of my friends from school, (who honest to god I can't even remember) knocked on my front door and my mom answered, and apparently he or I think the other person that was with him (someone I had never met before in my life) was wearing a brown bandanna. This was about the time that my mother assumed that I was "running with the gangs". How would my mom have even came to this conclusion if it weren't for the news cast on about gangs and their affiliation with bandannas? Honestly the whole thing is LAUGHABLE!!
You can assume this kind of thing is common, especially with those kinds of parents who are religious and take any sign of mischief as the curse of the devil. My point is the problem isn't the gangs or the drugs or the teens that misbehave, its the media and the hysteria they are spreading with the scare tactics they use to pump up their ratings. Gullible idiotic people like the generations that birthed us are susceptible to the hype and often over-react when they notice what they perceive to be signs of "the hood" creeping into their teenagers lives. Rap music is enough to send a parent into "gang watch" believe me, as much as it seems just like music to you and me, to them its as if "niggas" literally busted into their home and stole their teenager.
Here's a solution, boycott FOX News.
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Real gangbangers are kids of previous gangbangers
Can't wait for somebody to claim that behavior is a "disease" since it's obviously genetic. lols.
They have.
its called Borderline Personality Disorder
or Oppositional Defiant Disorder.
Gang Bangers Anonymous
Honestly I'd rather join a gang than a cult.
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Real gangbangers are kids of previous gangbangers
Can't wait for somebody to claim that behavior is a "disease" since it's obviously genetic. lols.
They have.
its called Borderline Personality Disorder
or Oppositional Defiant Disorder.
Gang Bangers Anonymous
Honestly I'd rather join a gang than a cult.
Yeah, that whole Oppositional Defiant Disorder crap makes me want to shit my pants and feed it to the nearest Psychologist.
Its almost funny....like I am hoping that someone will stand up and say, "Oh yeah! It was all a bad joke that stuf about calling teen defiance a disorder!" oops! Like I just cant believe that someone could use that term with a straight face.
::fullofshit::
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Real gangbangers are kids of previous gangbangers
Can't wait for somebody to claim that behavior is a "disease" since it's obviously genetic. lols.
They have.
its called Borderline Personality Disorder
or Oppositional Defiant Disorder.
Gang Bangers Anonymous
Honestly I'd rather join a gang than a cult.
Yeah, that whole Oppositional Defiant Disorder crap makes me want to shit my pants and feed it to the nearest Psychologist.
Its almost funny....like I am hoping that someone will stand up and say, "Oh yeah! It was all a bad joke that stuf about calling teen defiance a disorder!" oops! Like I just cant believe that someone could use that term with a straight face.
::fullofshit::
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Its really funny because you guys reject traditional medicine based treatment in search of a "common sense" approach with no evidence to back it up. Well, other than you saying "I just don't like drug rehabilitation therapy or AA". Of course the irony in this is your parents also rejected traditional medicine based professional treatment for "common sense" treatment that sounded to them like something that might work.
I got to wonder how you all can engage in such obvious cognitive dissonance. Your solution to the TTI problem is to tell parents let their kid become a drug addict, don't send them to a program and by the way, traditional rehab and AA is also bad. You offer people nothing other than complaints, instead of offering alternatives that actually sound like they might make some sense.
In that way you have become completely useless. I suppose this board is good for people to bitch on, about programs or about AA or whatever they want. But besides that, the ironic, contradictory ideas engaged here by the regulars are laughable and most people will read a few posts and then go find another, more useful source of information.
You can make fun of disorders and mental health professionals all you want. Until you have to deal with kids who are TRULY out of control then you have no idea what you're talking about. Sure some adolescent disorders are over diagnosed, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. You can't just dismiss decades of medicinally based studies and an entire profession just because it seems "too program like" to you. Parents SHOULD choose this option over programs, the "common sense" approach that some of you seem to like just like your parents.
Fornits sure is negative these days. It's almost like if you don't like programs, you can't offer any alternative solutions. Well I think some people and teens do need help and people who know better should direct them towards ethical and safe treatment rather than tell them everything is equally bad. That's just not true, and by telling people that it hurts them and their kids.
I would steer parents away from non-regulated programs that are discussed on fornits, but I would never tell anyone to avoid AA or drug rehab or traditional adolescent treatment. To do so would make me, ironically, just like program supporters since they offer solutions based on misinformation and assumptions. I know what I'm talking about and feel being honest with people is the only option.
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Its really funny because you guys reject traditional medicine based treatment in search of a "common sense" approach with no evidence to back it up.
Since when? You haven't been paying attention, little one.
It seems that the last few posts about this were in regards to misdiagnosis/overdiagnosis, not a rejection of medical treatment altogether. Haven't you ever heard of designer disorders before? That's just as bad as new age hippie cult "therapy" and tough love.
Even valid conditions can be over diagnosed, such as ADD, which really is a condition. And diagnoses that deal with broad spectrum personality disorders is changing all the time. e.g. Sociopath is now considered antisocial, and even my own psychiatrist has problems with the understanding of borderline. Mainly because of the name.
Your view of this is quite myopic. As if someone has to embrace something across the board in either camp. That's real black and white thinking. Which is actually a common symptom of someone with borderline, ironically enough.
I personally believe that all of these diagnoses do exist and are valid (with the exception being ODD). The issue isn't their existence, it's misdiagnosis.
The industry will borrow whatever it feels is appropriate to get your money, so it will take tough love, tony robbins, and whatever medical diagnosis is the most popular these days, to scare the crap out of you to get your kid. and... it addresses and treats none of the issues it says it does.
For example, I am bipolar. I was BORN bipolar. When I was a child, I was misdiagnosed as having ADD. (Then called hyperactivity disorder) It became obvious when I reached adolescence that this was not the case at all, and it became evident after my first suicide attempt that I was suffering either from depression or bipolar. I most certainly needed treatment and therapy for it, and the absolute LAST place I should have been... was where I was... in Idaho. That didn't help at all. And no other TTI program can help with psychological disorders, or anything else, and they CERTAINLY can't diagnose, and any shrink working closely within the industry, (such as CEDU's Dr. Ulrich) should always be held suspect.
The fact that some of these websites actually have online quizilla-style polls to take to determine if your kid has odd or add or borderline is ridiculous. check this box, my ass. Do you have any idea how long it can take sometimes to properly diagnose someone and determine a proper course of treatment which works? Years, sometimes decades. (I'm sure there are those here who would argue that this means psych treatment is a fraud, but I disagree. I know how it feels when I am crazy, vs. when I'm getting proper meds, so fuck right off.)
So guess what? Some place that makes a bunch of kids chop wood and scream at each other in groups and live in cages when they are misbehaving isn't going to treat shit, even if they decide to crowbar some sort of half-assed (and extremely dangerous) psych med regimen into the program.
Really, if you are a parent, and you have a kid with a psychological condition, you should be fucking flogged in half even more than other program parents for thinking that a TBS is the right place for your kid.
At CEDU, we had what was called our "option". i.e. it was the plan B that our parents had if it didn't work out at CEDU. Normally the staff would hang it over the kid's head to scare them into compliance. (such as "You're going to provo." or "you're going to CYA") Well, my option was apparently a psych ward in Georgia, where I was gong to start on a course of lithium.
Guess what medication I'm on now, motherfuckers? Lithium. And it's the only shit that has ever worked for me. Twenty motherfucking years of dicking around with meds and trying to drill down my diagnosis, and I finally end up with what we were going to try in the first place. Not saying that Georgia would have been better or worse. I have no idea, and that is arguing the hypothetical. But it certainly would have saved me some time and doctors' bills.
Also.. I myself have never heard of a diagnosis of either borderline or ODD applied to gangbangers. And the thought of any gangbanger going to a shrink seems downright absurd. Psychology isn't a part of gang culture, yo, unless their attorney is having them plead criminally insane.
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Well I think some people and teens do need help and people who know better should direct them towards ethical and safe treatment rather than tell them everything is equally bad.
I would steer parents away from non-regulated programs that are discussed on fornits, but I would never tell anyone to avoid AA or drug rehab or traditional adolescent treatment.
I hear you. And I hear the same thing from people who are generally on the fence about programs because the assumption is that not only do SOME teens need help, but there are also SOME programs out there that are not abusive and do offer a helpful kind of treatment and education. Those of us who oppose abuse in residential treatment programs are regularly accused of being drug addicts who hate recovery treatment in general and that is absolutely not true. Look at it this way, I dont oppose the purpose of giving a teen a drug free environment to live in while giving them the education they need to stay sober (or at least responsible) when they leave. What I do oppose is the way that the people who have developed this teen rehabilitation system have decided to go about it. In my opinion they got it ALL WRONG. Same thing with AA, the purpose was honorable but the way the religious people who created it used it as a way to break people down in order to convert them to a religion is just unconstitutional. I have been very admit that what I want to see is change in this industry. I want to see that these kids get to keep their rights as human beings and have a voice in their own treatment. I don't think that ALL forms of rehabilitation are bad, and I don't think anyone here ever said that. I think I can speak for most of us when I say we have just realized there is A LOT wrong with the system and if we don't stand up and demand change then people will continue to have no choice but to feed their children into a broken system.
The main problem here is that you want us to be able to, as survivors, tell you what programs are good and what programs are bad. As much as some of us might be willing to do that, I don't think any of us have the time or money it would take to properly investigate, regulate and set up a referral service. Honestly, that's not our job, that is what Ed-Cons are for, unfortunately since the programs they refer pay their salaries, that as well has become a broken system that has allowed many children to fall through the cracks. What you should be doing is asking Sue Scheff why she isn't doing her job properly. Why the accreditation associations who's sole purpose is to do exactly what should be done here are literally doing NOTHING is truly beyond me. But honestly, that is just another symptom of this broken system and evidence that its operated by too many rich conservative people who are unwilling to change their polices to protect children if it means they will be putting less profit into their pockets.
So in answer to your rant, I do not personally oppose all rehabilitation treatment, and FYI we are working on making those necessary changes in this industry and If I do ever find a program that works and is a healthy intervention for teens (and only admit teens that truly need help) I would have no problem steering a parent into an alternative direction. Especially when the choice is between a program and an honest drug addiction, but the problem is I don't know of any good schools and I don't have the time or money to go investigate a bunch of them. That being said, expecting me to do so, or looking down upon survivors in general because we don't refer is a bit ridiculous don't you think?
This issue actually gets into a big gray area with survivors, I think because we are all still a bit shocked at how Sue Scheff turned to start referring, but wasn't doing the investigation and regulation that is necessary to make sure that kids are not being mistreated. The thing is its hard to tell just by looking at a website or even meeting with the staff if a program is a "good" program or not and if we can be fooled as many people have before then any recommendations we make could result in the abuse of a child resting on our shoulders. None of us want to end up making that mistake, that would be like gambling with these kids lives and in our minds torturing them ourselves. So I think most of us choose to air on the side of "No Referrals" that way we don't have to take that chance.
I also think you should read what we have to say more closely, it really seems to me you generalize what you assume is our opinion yet you never really ask us how we really feel about a subject before you judge us.
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So guess what? Some place that makes a bunch of kids chop wood and scream at each other in groups and live in cages when they are misbehaving isn't going to treat shit, even if they decide to crowbar some sort of half-assed (and extremely dangerous) psych med regimen into the program.
U know what Castle, I like you. Well said.
It really surprises me that people automatically and without first asking about the system in place automatically assume that what these programs offer is really treatment. The truth is its so far from what professionals would call treatment, its actually a big fucking joke that they perpetrate it as such.
Just because their website claims that they handle every teenage problem from A to Z DOES NOT mean they are actually equipped to give a child individual care. Fact is, a program is simply a fear driven, super coercive system that will damn right break even the strongest kid's will so that they can implant the program jargon and teach them how to "fake it till you make it". They don't help them change and they don't teach them how to stay sober, they just teach these kids to fear authority and to obey their parents. Unfortunately that doesn't translate too well in the adult world when you need to make your own decisions. I never learned those "how and why to stay clean" lessons until I was out of the program and had already done way more drugs than I even knew existed before the program.
Just to touch on Castle's points, when it came to "treatment" of mental disorders, the program was really the LAST place that you should send your kid. Maybe Castle can back me up here but speaking from my own experience the program was NOT designed to accommodate kids with real disorders. I was one of those kids, since a very young age (and with significant history in my family) I was diagnosed with Bipolar and ADD. The way the rules were set in place (super strict, and really not rules at all) I was always getting written up for one mistake or another. I wasn't defiant or violent or a danger to myself or anyone else but I was being punished ALL THE TIME. It got to a point that I was just used to be made an example out of to scare the other students into obeying the rules. This kind of "punishment" lead me to not be allowed to do any school work for about 90% of my 2 years in the program so not only was I mistreated and abused (yes, physically) due to the symptoms of my disorder, but I was also robbed of an education. By the time I left the program I was 17 and didn't have enough credits to be able to graduate the 9th grade. I really can't be any more serious when I say the programs are really the OPPOSITE of what a child with mental disorders needs as treatment and really should be avoided at all costs.
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Thanks Femanon......very well said...you can certainly speak for me.
Survivor doesnt equal psychological professional.....unless we decide to undertake the process educated and ethically, we have no business referring. Nor does anyone else for that matter. ( Nor should programs use graduates, siblings and parents as "therapists" in treatment, would your local emergency room ask you to remove your mothers appendix just because you'd had your own taken out?)
But it doesnt take a psychiatrist to discern that what we went through, ie this program modality....is abusive and ineffective. That we can speak about and warn against. Its pretty much accepted that a punch in the face is abuse and not valid therapy for drug treatment.
Also, I think its important to remember that there is a difference between therapy that is voluntary or at least semi-voluntary without threat of physical or mental repercussions, and therapy that is coerced and involuntary. We tend to cover the latter because its what we went through.
The whole opinion that we dont think any therapy is useful or that kids should just be let lose to get high and fuck off....thats not a fair assumption at all. And completely contradictory to what we discuss here. I have two kids and when they become teenagers I am not just going to let them start a Hydro farm in the garage because i have an axe to grind with treatment. I think most of the anti program people here try to make an effort to be realistic and fair.....if someone cant see that, they arent really looking for any objective answer.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z62ikGqIuUY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z62ikGqIuUY)