Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: GregFL on November 13, 2003, 02:11:00 PM
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"I don't mean to just stop with a Seed in Pinellas. That might be the community which would be the right place for another dream I have. I can see a university type of complex with young people trained there who have come from all over the country to take the program back to their own communities. After Pinellas, we'll be getting a Seed going in Jacksonville. Then there will be no Flordia area uncovered....I see Seeds all over the country"
Art Barker to The now defunct Evening Independent 2-1-73 prior to the opening of the St Pete Seed. The paper initially supported The Seed and had a Seed parent writing pro-seed articles. Eventually the Seed, amid controversy over brainwashing and a kipnapping at a local school by Seed parents, lost favor with the newspaper.If you think yourself too wise to involve
yourself in government, you will be governed
by those too foolish to govern.
--Plato
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2003-11-15 06:31 ]
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"Picture in your mind a moment, $250 saves one young person from a life of drugs with one of three alternatives-death, imprisonment, or psychiatric hospitalization. What an investment-$250 for one life!
Art Barker's 1973 testimony before a house education subcommittee.From the bottom of any large organization looking up through the ranks, human greed and stupidity look a lot like a conspiracy.
--S. Gilbert
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"The man is a liar and a fool."
"The psychiatrists can't do a damn thing with kids on drugs"
Speaking of Dr. Raymond Killinger, a Ft lauderdale psychiatrists who claimed to be treating "an increasing number" of children who entered psychiatric hospitals after being harmed by the Seed. Art Barker had recieved his own "degree in Psychology" by a Ft Lauderdale Diploma mill that was later closed down by the state of Florida in 1972.
source: These are new times 9/6/74.
Perhaps the sentiments contained in the following
pages, are not yet sufficiently fashionable to procure them
general favor; a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong,
gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises
at first a formidable outcry in defence of custom. But the
tumult soon subsides. Time makes more converts than reason.
Thomas Paine, Common Sense
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2003-11-14 11:34 ]
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"its a form of brainwashing"
Art Barker, speaking of the techniques of the seed, to the Miami Herald 8/19/72
To go to Journal of Applied Polymer Science go to http://www3.interscience.wiley.com (http://www3.interscience.wiley.com) and then journal search and put the journal number and year
-- Journal of Applied Polymer Science Vol. 47, 1984
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"they criticize us...they say we're a circus or a penecostal movement. Well, let me tell you, I don't care what they say. This program WORKS."
Art, speaking in front of the Ft Lauderdale seed group, as witnessed by the Miami herald reporter 8/19/72.The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. ... All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.
--Hermann Goering, Luftwaffe commander, sentenced to death at Nuremberg
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"Its a handfull of Idiots who control the funding who are our enemies"
Art Barker, speaking of Dr. Tom Carroll and the other members of the Dade comprehensive Drug Program who had received a grant for 3.3 million and distributed among 20 other Dade drug agencies. The Seed didn't get a chunk of the money because they weren't established in Dade county when the grant was established. The seed closed the miami branch and moved 1400 kids to the Ft lauderdale branch overnight.
source Miami herald 9/23/73
For something that has spread with all the forethought of kudzu, the Internet isn't half bad."
-- Newsweek, 2/27/95
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"the report is a huge joke, it is full of lies, deceit and innuendoes. It is loaded with slanderous comments about me....I am here to save lives, not to get you to like me."
Art Barker, to a Dade county task force, who had just issued a report that was 75 percent favorable to the seed but criticised his claimed 90% success rate (The HPC had determined the Seed had a 41% drop out rate) and also criticised his derogatory remarks about other drug programs, his poor doumentation, and that the Seed treated very view minority groups. Art responded that this was "garbage".
Source 9/17/82 Miami Herald.It is one of the most beautiful compensations of life, that no man can sincerely try to help another without helping himself.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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"cheap, crummy politics"
Art Barker, in response to the City of Sunrise's decision to not contribute money because of Art Barker's accounting procedures.
St Pete Times.
Bureaucracy defends the status quo long past the time when the quo has lost its status
--Laurence J. Peter
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"they come in here and I might just as easily bawl them out as anybody else."
Art Barker, speaking of the inluential parents of seedlings.
St pete times.
When Plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in a society, they create for themselves in the course of time, a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.
--Fredric Bastiat
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"A kid being totally off drugs, his whole attitude toward life being changed, he loves himself, he loves others, loves God, Loves country, is totally honest and aware"
Art Barker, science, vol 182
First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.
Gandhi
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"they are either druggies or they are fools"
Art Barker, speaking of his critics.
These are new times for it is a truth, which the experience of all ages has attested, that the people are commonly most in danger when the means of insuring their rights are in the possession of those of whom they entertain the least suspicion.
--Alexander Hamilton
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"he even knows what I am thinking right now"
Current Mayor of Dania Beach and longtime Seedling Robert Chunn, speaking of Art Barker earlier this year to a reporter while traveling in a car....the people have a right to keep and bear arms.
-- Patrick Henry and George Mason Debates
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"Listen, we get the rough kids, the rotten ones. We're the court of last resort. One-third of the kids here today have said they had close friends who died of overdoses, but not even that stopped them. They'd shoot any kind of garbage into their arms. Even water for a quick jolt."
Art Barker to the Miami Herald 8/19/72
Clancy's Law: The perceived role of governments is to deploy ever increasing resources to the attainment of ever diminishing end results.
--Home Page (http://ozinfo.com/)
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"the ones who come in with overdoses....we don't use any drugs to cure them, either. Sometimes I'll give them fake pills. This'll make you feel good, I say. After 72 hours, there sleeping like babies."
Art Barker, describing how he detoxed the occasional addict or overdose brought in.
miami herald.Speculations on the Origin of Human Intelligence: "In defense of the Pygmies, perhaps I should note that a friend of mine who has spent time with them says that for such activities as the patient stalking and hunting of mammals and fish they prepare themselves through marijuana intoxication, which helps to make the long waits, boring to anyone further evolved than a Komodo dragon, at least moderately tolerable. Ganja is, he says, their only cultivated crop. It would be wryly interesting if in human history the cultivation of marijuana led generally to the invention of agriculture, and thereby to civilization.
Carl Sagan - The Dragons of Eden - 1977
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"We keep a check on everybody who passes through our hands.....we've got a great CIA agency. IF kids reestablish contact with their old pusher, we hear about it..."
Art Barker to the miami herald describing the snitch system seedlings were required to participate in.I think that all right-thinking people in this country are sick and tired of being told that ordinary, decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I'm certainly not! But I'm sick and tired of being told that I am!
-- Monty Python
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"A slanderous vindictive pack of lies intended to make me and my program look bad."
Art Barker, describing the 26 page drug abuse task force report on The Seed.To make certain that crime does not pay, the government should take it
over and try to run it
--G. Norman Collie
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"that comes from three sources-the state bureaucrats, the promoters of other drug programs and possibly from the 20 percent of the population that normally are mentally ill"
Art Barker, describing his critics.
St Pette Times March 1973If there's a worse idea going than locking people up for drug use, it's probably locking them up in close proximity to some tyranical altruist who wants to 'help' them with a problem that probably doesn't exist
-- Ginger Warbis
having had about all the help I can stand!
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"bureaucrats..a bunch of horses asses"
Art Barker, describing the state drug abuse offices responsible for issuing the Seed a state license.
Karate is a form of martial arts in which people who have had years and years of training can, using only their hands and feet, make some of the worst movies in the history of the world.
-- Dave Barry
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"No two bit mayor of a city like Lomelo is going to hold up my program"
Art Barker, to the Dade health planning council.The college idealists who fill the ranks of the environmental movement seem willing to do absolutely anything to save the biosphere, except take science courses and learn something about it.
--P.J. O'Rourke
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"When I was in show business and working the playboy club and living on a 46 ft boat, I could make all the money I wanted. Im not in it for the loot"
His response to a question that his motives may be money. The playboy club reported back to the paper that he was a fill in only and worked there six weeks a year and made about $3000 per year.
Source. The St Pete Times.Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? ... If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?
-- Patrick Henry
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"If the Seed doesn't become a model program in this country in five years, you can forget about the nation. The YOuth will crawl off and die, and it'll be a whimpering kind of death."
Art Barker, describing what would happen if the Seed didn't become the standard of treatment thruout the nation.
Source The St Pete times....it is worth discussing radical changes, not in the expectation that they will be adopted promptly but for two other reasons. One is to construct an ideal goal, so that incremental changes can be judged by whether they move the institutional structure toward or away from that ideal. The other reason is very different. It is so that if a crisis requiring or facilitating radical change does arise, alternatives will be available that have been carefully developed and fully explored."
Milton Friedman
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"Who are you and where do you work"
Art Barker to a audience member at a town meeting in St Pete. The audience member was questioning his claimed 90% sucess rate.
source The St Pete TImes.Life is like a shit sandwich; the more bread you got, the less shit you gotta eat.
--Anonymous
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"our 90% succes rate is documented by the NIMH (national institute of mental health).
Art Barker in July 1973 in response to questioning of the claimed 90% sucess rate. The NIMH responded to the St Pete times by saying they had not even assessed the success rate of the Seed program.
source- The St Pete times.
Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our motto.
--Thomas Jefferson
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"the pushers are scared to death about the honesty of the Seed"
Describing to the Times why the Seed is guarded and his office windows are bricked over to protect him against bullets.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. The people who ran straight had the best of intentions. I hope they reached their destination.
James Lloyd
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"jesus said a long time ago, you can't be a prophet in your own town"
Art Barker, quoted by the St Pete times.
It is criminal to steal a purse. It is daring to steal a fortune. It is a mark of greatness to steal a crown. The blame diminishes as the guilt increases
--Schiller (1759-1805)
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"The Seed has never done this, does not advocate this and is against this"
Art Barker, to the st pete times, reacting to a story that Seed parents kidnapped a girl from St Pete Catholic school and threw her in a car and took her to the seed, injuring her in the process. The mother said she was told her daughter was on drugs and would die if they did not allow it.The girl was later removed from the Seed by her mother. Art's reaction?
"The Seed refused to admit her"
Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake when you make it again.
-- F. P. Jones
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2003-11-14 11:38 ]
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"I am the founder of The Seed. I am an extremely necessary part of it. I am the one who knows about it. I would be the only one to head the program."
Art Barker, 7/72, in response to the Dade county School Board looking into starting their own program based on Seed techniques but headed by a committe of professionals.
for it is a truth, which the experience of all ages has attested, that the people are commonly most in danger when the means of insuring their rights are in the possession of those of whom they entertain the least suspicion.
--Alexander Hamilton
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Greg,
When you say New Times, do you mean the Miami New Times or the Palm Beach New Times Broward?
Thanks for all your good research!
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Neither. Back in the early 70s, there was a national magazine called "these are the New Times" and this article appeared in there. It was written by a St Pete Times staff writer that covered the seed, and then she sold the story to the national media. This article can be accessed in most major libraries just by cross referencing The Seed and Art Barker.
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EXCELLENT.
The words of "the prophet" are more damaging than any personal tesitmony I could ever give. If he's not a meglomaniac, I don't know who is.
megalomania >noun 1 obsession with the exercise of power. 2 the delusion that one has great power or importance.
Thanks, Greg.
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Greg:
Have you had any luck getting that old newspaper article with the pictures of the inside of The Seed at St. Pete scanned so that everyone can see and remember what the place REALLY looked like?
Maybe if people saw it "black and white" they might remember a bit more about the reality of the experience.
Anxiously awaiting publication... :smile:
Kevin[ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-04-04 14:00 ]
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Sorry Stripe, with all the personal drama I have had lately, I plum forgot agout it. It is sitting on my desk at work right now. I apologize and will get right on it when I return next tuesday.
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That's okay. Take your time and no rush on it. Thanks for all you do, Greg. I appreciate it.
KJ
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bada...BUMP.
:grin:
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On 2003-11-14 09:17:00, GregFL wrote:
""its a form of brainwashing"
Art Barker, speaking of the techniques of the seed, to the Miami Herald 8/19/72
To go to Journal of Applied Polymer Science go to http://www3.interscience.wiley.com (http://www3.interscience.wiley.com) and then journal search and put the journal number and year
-- Journal of Applied Polymer Science Vol. 47, 1984
"
Reading back through this thread I noticed that Art himself described the Seed program as a type of "Brainwashing". Given this, I'm a little surprised that so many defenders of the program refute this. Art said it was brainwashing....yet so many here say it was not. A common statement being: "I never felt brainwashed". If you were brainwashed...would you feel it at all? Isn't that part of the programming itself? Wouldn't you only feel brainwashed if the effects were at least beginning to wear off? I thought that the only debate was whether such brainwashing (or thought-reconditioning....if you prefer a milder term) was justified by the higher purpose of getting people off drugs.
A view similar to Art's seems to be held by the professor below:
Incredibly, in 1962 Dr. Edgar H. Schein, associate professor of psychiatry at M.I.T., addressing the topic "Man Against Man: Brainwashing" at a seminar for prison wardens and psychologists chaired by James V. Bennett, the then director of the U.S. Bureau of Prisons, told his audience,
'My basic argument is this: in order to produce marked change of behavior and/or attitude, it is necessary to weaken, undermine, or remove the supports of the old patterns of behavior and the old attitudes'; this can be done 'either by removing the individual physically and preventing any communication with those whom he cares about, or by proving to him that those whom he respects are not worthy of it and, indeed, should be actively mistrusted.' Dr. Schein told his audience that he had gotten most of his ideas by studying the techniques used by North Korean and Chinese Communist on GI prisoners of war, but cautioned his audience not to be put off by this fact: 'These same techniques in the service of different goals may be quite acceptable to us. . . I would like to have you think of brainwashing not in terms of politics, ethics, and morals, but in terms of the deliberate changing of human behavior and attitudes by a group of men who have relatively complete control over the environment in which the captive population lives.' [Corrective Psychiatry & Journal of Social Change, Second Quarter, 1962.]
Many people seem amused by the comparison of the Seed's techniques to Korean Brainwashing. Did this idea originate with some junkie seed-screwup or is it simply some insult pulled out of thin air? And who first referred to the Seed as a 'cult'? Antigen? Greg? Not quiet:
"There are indications that a cult of The Seed has developed which leads seedlings to associate only with other seedlings and to ostracize those who associate with non-seedlings. This has led to the formation of continuing limited peer groups outside the program which restrict seedlings' interaction with normal society. Allegiance to such a peer group may lead to a transfer of decision-making and opens the possibility that if the peer group shifts direction it may return its members to drug abuse or turn them to other anti-social behavior. "
1974 Report by the Staff of the House Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce.
And where did the bizarre idea of comparing the Seed's methods to Korean Brain Washing originate:
"Other forms of behavior modification techniques employ intensive "encounter sessions" in which individuals are required to participate in group therapy discussions where intensive pressure is often placed on the individuals to accept the attitudes of the group. . . Once the individual is submissive, his personality can begin to be reformed around attitudes determined by the program director to be acceptable. Similar to the highly refined "brainwashing" techniques employed by the North Koreans in the early nineteen fifties, the method is used in the treatment of drug abusers. . . "The Seed", a drug abuse treatment program in Florida that, until recently, received funding from the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare, is based on a similar philosophy. "
INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS AND THE FEDERAL ROLE IN BEHAVIOR MODIFICATION by the Committee on the Judiciary,United States Senate, Subcommittee on Constitutional Rights, November, 1974, pp. 15 - 16 describing a juvenile drug rehab program in Fort Lauderdale, Florida called The Seed.
Brainwashing: What does this mean? It does not mean that your memory is wiped out. It does not mean you become a 'manchurian candidate' robot pre-programed to carry out assigned tasks. It doesn't mean you are a zombie or are incapable of any critical thinking or feeling on any level. It does mean that your basic beliefs, ideals and personality are modified to conform with a desired result or ideal. Your ability to critically evaluate particular issues addressed by the programming is indeed affected. It is a catch 22 since it is this ability to critically evaluate the claims of the programming itself that offers the only way of freeing yourself from it's clutches. If you don't feel brainwashed, you obviously aren't interested in freeing yourself from it.
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Great post, as usual. You have a soothing manner, and your style of non-combative writing really brings a welcome level of balance to this forum. Thanks for the info!
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all that info was right here in the forum all along, but thanks Marshall for bringing it back up to the surface.
Now, how long will it take before they just wait for the thread to disappear and then to start calling blasphemy on anyone who says "brainwashing". Before they start ridiculing people who bring up the obvious comparisons to the techniques the korean's used on POWs?
My father used to say this "they say the seed uses brainwashing methods, but I think your brain needed a little washing".
welcome to the Orwellian world of a 14 year old florida boy, circa 1973.
GregFL
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On 2005-09-28 21:31:00, marshall wrote:
Brainwashing: What does this mean? It does not mean that your memory is wiped out. It does not mean you become a 'manchurian candidate' robot pre-programed to carry out assigned tasks. It doesn't mean you are a zombie or are incapable of any critical thinking or feeling on any level. It does mean that your basic beliefs, ideals and personality are modified to conform with a desired result or ideal. Your ability to critically evaluate particular issues addressed by the programming is indeed affected. It is a catch 22 since it is this ability to critically evaluate the claims of the programming itself that offers the only way of freeing yourself from it's clutches. If you don't feel brainwashed, you obviously aren't interested in freeing yourself from it."
People when the term Brainwashing is used, conjure up robots or zombies in their mind. wrong!
Brainwashing is a process (that we are all intimately familiar with whether we know it or not) that breaks down your ego and belief system and replaces it with one that has already been predetermined and bonding someone to a particular group. It is a very deliberate and effective method over the short haul of affecting massive changes in one's personality.