Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: split twice on February 15, 2009, 12:05:46 AM
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My name is marty brown,I was court ordered to the seed from naples in 74..maybe ''73.Any way i was 13 or 14,and had a hell of a time gettin` any sleep,cause of them dang moral inventories. I often remember Libby,Annie,Scott,Robert Chun,John Underwood,and can`t quite be positive about the other names,seems like there might have been a chick named penny.
One of the weirdest things i remember,is during rap,the two leaders would look at each other and act like they could feel art`s presence in the building ,and ask if we felt it.Most everybody would get goosebumps all over their arms,as if Jesus had graced us with his presence when art came in.
Anyway,i`ve gained and suffered both from that experience..all the rest of my life both cursin` the devil,and thankin` the lord for for it.Sometimes the wisdom came in handy,..other times the knowledge of how people are such users just gets me down.
If anyone can help me recall the rest of the staff from that period i would appreciate it ..and if anyone remembers Mark Swann,who`s home i split out the bedroom window,and Marc Solo,from who`s window i made my last escape.
Any naples seedlings around here?Or does anyone remember Theresa and Mark Furman,Mary and Patty Mills,John Ford,John Shafer,etc.
Or does anyone remember the parents night when i had to get up and tell what I had learned since comming to the seed?
I said"I`ve learned a lot about honesty since comming to the seed,and i honestly want the hell out of this damned place"...
...boy did i catch hell for that!
Thanks for being here folks!...Never thought i`d see the day..the seed on the infomation super freakin` highway. marty
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welcome to the forum
- nice post
your comment "Anyway,i`ve gained and suffered both from that experience..all the rest of my life both cursin` the devil,and thankin` the lord for for it.Sometimes the wisdom came in handy,..other times the knowledge of how people are such users just gets me down." pretty much sums up my feelings about the seed. it wasnt all good or all bad, but it was a crazy messed up trip through it.
this board is not too active anymore but a few stop by from time to time. i was never in the FL seed - i was in cleveland on the program 76-77, around off and on until it closed.
you woulda been slightly older than me - i turned 15 in 1976.
your post definitely made me laugh - thanks for the comments. you reminded me of a newcomer in cleveland who, at his first open meeting, got up and started to introduce himself, proceeded to say something to the effect of, "I never really hated my father, that is until he put me in here....." well you can imagine he got yanked from the line up pretty quickly and out of the open meeting, and returned after about an hour to get up in front of the room and apologize. we could only imagine what the reeming he got behind the scenes was like.
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My name is marty brown,I was court ordered to the seed from naples in 74..maybe ''73.Any way i was 13 or 14,and had a hell of a time gettin` any sleep,cause of them dang moral inventories. I often remember Libby,Annie,Scott,Robert Chun,John Underwood,and can`t quite be positive about the other names,seems like there might have been a chick named penny.
One of the weirdest things i remember,is during rap,the two leaders would look at each other and act like they could feel art`s presence in the building ,and ask if we felt it.Most everybody would get goosebumps all over their arms,as if Jesus had graced us with his presence when art came in.
Anyway,i`ve gained and suffered both from that experience..all the rest of my life both cursin` the devil,and thankin` the lord for for it.Sometimes the wisdom came in handy,..other times the knowledge of how people are such users just gets me down.
If anyone can help me recall the rest of the staff from that period i would appreciate it ..and if anyone remembers Mark Swann,who`s home i split out the bedroom window,and Marc Solo,from who`s window i made my last escape.
Any naples seedlings around here?Or does anyone remember Theresa and Mark Furman,Mary and Patty Mills,John Ford,John Shafer,etc.
Or does anyone remember the parents night when i had to get up and tell what I had learned since comming to the seed?
I said"I`ve learned a lot about honesty since comming to the seed,and i honestly want the hell out of this damned place"...
...boy did i catch hell for that!
Thanks for being here folks!...Never thought i`d see the day..the seed on the infomation super freakin` highway. marty
What did this "Penny", look like? Did this person have a last name?
kind regards,
-DP
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DP,it seems like penny might have been a black girl,not sure.I am known for my memory,but must have suppressed a lot..it seems when i rarely meet up with someone who was there,they seem to not to recall a fraction of what i do.Then when i came here,or any where else on line to look into the seed for only just recently,i am amazed at what people remember,and how little i actually do.
Another thing that has stood out in my memory is how annie,the skinny rap leader chick had a bad habit of chewing at the insides of her mouth,pressing at the sides of her face the get a better bite...........God,i know i could have caught hell for talking behind her back the way that i`m doing.
When they first filled me in on the deal about not talking behind someones back,i asked my old comer how did they find each other if you can`t ask somebody where they are,it seems like i was told by a nearby old timer that if you don`t see them at the seed they`re probably not worth seeing.
After i split the seed the second time,the judge sent me to the concept house,that was a friggin` nut house is what that place was! I was out the back stairway by 2:00 am the same night.I`m from a tiny island down in the everglades,and i was not prepared for that place,people running around in their droors ,wearin` homemade capes and masks,and wearing signs!
There was a big black guy,probably at least 6-10,they figured he had an ego problem,so they made him carry a six foot plastic hot dog & bun,with a sign saying "Any friend of Oscar Meyer`s is a friend of mine !"
later,marty
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Re: Penny. She was black and sometimes Art would have her sing "People" at open meetings. She had a beautiful voice. I was really scared of her when I was on my program. I think she came down on some people really hard. I guess they deserved it. She seemed fair. She also had a funny side and a kind side. She came back to a get together not too many years before the Seed closed. She looked great.
I remember Cliff was leading a rap and digressed to tell a story about getting sent to do some shopping and Penny went with him. He said he felt really weird and getting "strange vibes" at the grocery store. He said that suddenly he looked at Penny and she looked at him and he said, "your are black", while at the same time she looked at him and said, "your white". We all laughed like crazy. He said the lesson was that after your are straight superficial shit is not important and in our minds.
It is really funny how we remember some things crystal clear and there are persons and long periods of time that we forget.
Anne could come down on people real hard, but she seemed nice. I was always scared shitless of saying something wrong and having staff come down on me. They never did. I felt I would have broke.
[email protected]
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Yeh,grad,i remember her singing,now that you mention it,and she was a good looking woman.
I`m sure she had a turn at my ass.Annie was something else,when she got down on somebodies ass,there was such a look of disgust on her face.
Scott embarrassed me once in my first few days.I still had hair way down my back ,it was in a guys rap,and the subject was self respect.Scott asked me if i respected myself.I don`t remember what i said,but he made me stand up,and started acting like he was all pissed off and disgusted,and was gonna come over there and slap a turd out of me,or somethin`.Yelling like a mad man,he said "If you even wipe yer ass when you take a shit,that`s the closest you ever came to respectin` yourself"...and then the hands started going up,man the feedin` frinzy had begun!..it was bad enough in a guys rap.I was terrified something like that would eventually happen in front of chicks,and of course there were those times.
split
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Marty
I remember. Art used the "black" dude like a body gaurd. Cookie was a staff memeber as was Ginger, Terry, John, Kenny etc. I was there for way to long................ bad memories. I remember Art taking Libby on his house boat for sex. He also took some of us girls to a porn shop in Hollywood Fl. He would have us at his house and put on porn movies. Lot's of abuse! Cookie went thru a lot when her dad died and she inherited about 1 million dollars that was when the staff was living in Davie Fl at some ladies house I don't remember her name. I was living in the "cottage" next to it with a bunch of girls Terry Pridgeon, a girl named Cathy who married John another girl with long black hair who Art was after can't remember her name. Do remember Ginger. So many bad memories. Hope life is better for you now. What a screwed up place. I left in the dark of night. One time Art kicked me so hard my butt bled internally! I would love to file a class action suit any takers?
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Marty
I remember. Art used the "black" dude like a body gaurd. Cookie was a staff memeber as was Ginger, Terry, John, Kenny etc. I was there for way to long................ bad memories. I remember Art taking Libby on his house boat for sex. He also took some of us girls to a porn shop in Hollywood Fl. He would have us at his house and put on porn movies. Lot's of abuse! Cookie went thru a lot when her dad died and she inherited about 1 million dollars that was when the staff was living in Davie Fl at some ladies house I don't remember her name. I was living in the "cottage" next to it with a bunch of girls Terry Pridgeon, a girl named Cathy who married John another girl with long black hair who Art was after can't remember her name. Do remember Ginger. So many bad memories. Hope life is better for you now. What a screwed up place. I left in the dark of night. One time Art kicked me so hard my butt bled internally! I would love to file a class action suit any takers?
Hi,i`m really sorry to hear these things happened to you..pretty damned ridiculous for a young girl to have to go through that kind of thing in the name of rehabilitation .I hope you`ll stay in touch..Ijust found this site,and need people who can relate.I`ve always known there were people kinda like me,just never knew how to reach them..i`ve always felt the need.In church i was told to just forget all that stuff..Yea,Right!....marty
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The black dude was Robert Chun(sp?) and, last I heard, he's still Art's personal body guard and chauffeur. That was back around 2001, I think, just prior to the "Rap from Hell" when the Libbi faction confronted Art and the two factions split and the Seed, Inc. was disincorporated.
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Antigen - as usual you are just making stuff up again. No body guard ever existed. Thats what scares me about you. You always take a little bit of truth and drag it into making it a whole bunch of- excuse the expression "Shit". I think you just made one too many PB & J's. Even though you've always been in my opinion one sandwich short of a picnic basket. :clown:
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Sorry...when I chose that laughing clown - i really did not realize that he had an axe with blood on it. When choosing I thought he was just clowning around. ::deadhorse:: although this beating a dead horse is much more appropiate for this site. I really just check in from time to time & I must say I appreciate being able to reconnect with some friends that I have reconnected with. :peace:
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Hey Art did use Robert as a body Guard. I was there and remember! It was Art's alter ego thinking someone other then a "seedling" would want to accost him lol
He was a bigot and a jerk. Sadly with Robert being black I would say Art was also a racist! What was so pathetic is that Robert actually "acted" the part and allowed Art to use/belittle him in that way. Ahh so much bad stuff! But it's all true. I will attest to that! I WAS THERE SAW IT AND LIVED IT!
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Thanks for the backup, guest. Terry ... omg! sorry! I should have said "he who shall not be named" likes to lurk as long as it takes for me to post then give me a good old down home oldtimer come down. The only good old friend I know if that he's met here is my older brother, who does about the same but less vigilantly.
Shit, Terry, do you know that you and I have more contact than me and Thom have had since my intake day in 1980? It's true.
Anyway, maybe we'll read about Rob Chun in Evan Wright's upcoming novel. Maybe not. Either way, I remember and so do you and I'm sure 20 years or so worth of Seedlings do too.
Thanks again,
Ginger
(not the staffer)
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Dear Dear Antigen - Lets really get the facts down right - When you say since your intake in 1980 please don't mislead the folks - you were never at the Seed - you were at Straight Inc - You love to mislead - You really do a good job of taking partial truths and add on to your delight. Have a really nice day :whip:
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And yet somehow I remember fairly accurately the people who were there and events that took place there from around 70 - around 79 or so. Guess I must be psychic. I may not have been on front row but, believe me, the whole family got sucked into the twilight zone around the time Pam went on front row and Jim, love sick, followed her there. Did you know they married and had a kid?
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No I did not - to be perfectly honest I did not know them . Tom I knew a little more but not very well either. I do remember you as a young blond haired kid with your Mom. I really am sorry you don't have good relations with your family. Somehow throughout the years I became very close to my 3 brothers & Sister. Only one of my siblings went through the program & was not as involved as me. I really do believe that the younger three brothers stayed out of alot of trouble because of me & my sister. She was around for about a year & I on the other hand was around off & on for a lifetime. Sure nothing was perfect but everyone sure tried hard to help others I know I did and I think we did a pretty good job of it. I really don't have many enemies nor regrets. I never witnessed any of the crap that I've seen on this site nor am I a Pollyanna. Like people have said to me "What friggin seed did they go to" Through this site I have contacted or have been contacted by over a dozen people that I've stayed in touch with ever since and I 've gone visiting people in CA & GA & NC and somemore still in FL. It's been great. A hell of alot of good happened there - and I'm sorry if some feel differently - I really am. I am just one guy and I can only be held responsible for for my own actions and for what I've seen :peace: .
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Thanks for the peace offering. I can only be held responsible for what I've seen too. Please don't continually call me a liar. I've seen what I've seen, lived what I've lived. I took the first and most impotent rule so much more seriously than the staff and other dedicated brainwashed Seedlings that I got my nose busted, ribs broke and more for refusing to lie and say I was grateful to be taken back into the loving arms of group for salvation. It just wouldn't have been honest. That's what I said and I meant it.
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First of all I never called you a liar. 2nd of all all the "nose punching & rib breaking stuff" happened where = Straight Inc. Right? Thats what I'm talking about... Alot of events that you speak of hold an element of truth then the time drags on for a decades of untruths & exaggerations -alot based on bitterness & malcontent - as I see it. . I think the limo thing was a period of months - they had fun with the donation - sold it and the money went to the seed. Ther was a time period that he was shot at numerous times in a car , by drug dealers and who knows who else in the very early days. I remember my 1971 ford maverick (not a cool car) had a bullet hole in it as well. Art was not a big guy - in fact I think just about all of us were alot bigger -everyone would appear to be a bodyguard-sure some people my have gotten into the role at times. I even drove the limo for a short period like 2 weeks or a month until he felt like this is a little silly or out of place & sold it.
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First of all I never called you a liar.
Uhhhh...
Antigen - as usual you are just making stuff up again. ...
2nd of all all the "nose punching & rib breaking stuff" happened where = Straight Inc. Right?
The founding staff of Straight consisted of Jim Hartz, the director, who had a masters degree in psychology, six young graduates from The Seed, and 54 year-old Helen Petermann, the mother of one of those graduates who was placed in charge of the six young counselors.
http://www.wesfager.com/theprogram/thec ... -12-02.htm (http://www.wesfager.com/theprogram/theclinicians-04-12-02.htm) [well worth the read]
Straight, Inc. was just a continuation of the Seed in nearly every detail. The only differences were a better, more robust corporate structure and that there was not one single cult leader like Art was, but rather many different ones for each location and time-frame. In my era it was Miller Newton in St. Pete w/ Chris Casselor playing a Libbi sort of role down in Sarasota.
When I landed up there, there were no surprises. I knew that the intake "interview" was unwinnable; that the line about a two week evaluation was a bald faced lie; that it would end in a strip search followed by an introduction to group and placement on front row as a newcomer w/ 3 days of no "relating".... The jargon was the same, the rules were the same, the songs were the same (minus the anti-religion material and "The Seed Indeed") the rituals were the same. And, of course, the logo and letter-head were different.
Thats what I'm talking about... Alot of events that you speak of hold an element of truth then the time drags on for a decades of untruths & exaggerations
Further:
A former program volunteer told a Times reporter in December 1977 that she, Hartz and others once witnessed Mrs. Petermann maliciously kicking a youth who was passively resisting Straight officials.
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According to the Saint Petersburg Times of February 12, 1978 two former Straight counselors (in sworn statements) said they had seen Straight program director Helen R. Petermann repeatedly slap a small youth and yanked him by his hair in an apparent outburst of temper. "I saw maybe five good smacks," one ex-counselor had said..
You remember good ol'e Mrs. Pete?
Your selective perception is also very similar to what I experienced. When HRS investigators questioned me just after I escaped, I told them that I had not witnessed or experienced any abuse. I wasn't lying, either. I believed what I said. I figured that, because I knew they'd sit on me and marathon me for refusing to say what they wanted me to say that it wouldn't be fair or exactly honest to call it abuse. I'm sure you saw with your eyes and heard with your ears some of the abuse that occurred at the Seed. But, just like my dear brother, you didn't perceive it as abuse. But there are just too damned many witnesses who have since shaken off the brainwashing or never gave in in the first place for any reasonable observer to write it all off as bullshit.
-alot based on bitterness & malcontent - as I see it. . I think the limo thing was a period of months - they had fun with the donation - sold it and the money went to the seed. Ther was a time period that he was shot at numerous times in a car , by drug dealers and who knows who else in the very early days.
Well he was still functioning as Art's personal driver as late as 2000 or so. And when you say the money went to "The Seed" what, exactly, does that mean? The staff were always paid less than minimum wage, the clients were housed and fed by other Seedling families, the food served at the building was donated and prepared by volunteers. All sorts of government grant money and donations were constantly pouring in on top of the fees paid by parents and donations collected at each open meeting. Despite all the poor-mouthing and constant panhandling, somehow or other, Art & his close inner circle landed up as minor millionaires. My mom wound up flat broke, having been conned out of a considerable inheritance along with her hard earned pay.
Any witnesses to that alleged shooting by drug dealers? Art always did take as many liberties with the truth as he did with some of the chicks.
I remember my 1971 ford maverick (not a cool car) had a bullet hole in it as well. Art was not a big guy - in fact I think just about all of us were alot bigger -everyone would appear to be a bodyguard-sure some people my have gotten into the role at times. I even drove the limo for a short period like 2 weeks or a month until he felt like this is a little silly or out of place & sold it.
So... then why blast me and claim Art never had no stinkin' body guard if you were one of them? Really, why? Is it bitterness and malcontent? Or just a really bad case of cognitive dissonance?
Honestly, I think I understand it. And, although it irks me so, I don't really hold it against you. I think it's about the same reason Thom is so hateful to me. I'm an apostate to your religion and a huge part of Seed culture is predicated on fear and loathing of any outsiders, but most especially infidels like me.
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I was at the Seed for a little over a year and Art had the limo (driven by Robert) when I got there and when I left. So he definitely had it for more than a year. We were told it (or a previous limo, not sure) was a gift from Jackie Gleason. I was also told by oldcomers that Robert indeed functioned as a body guard for Art. I don't think he had any official position or designation as a bodyguard, but it was generally understood that this was the case and nobody seemed to think much of it at the time. I still drop by to read here from time to time and was surprised to see that Ginger and Terry are still at it. Thanks again Ginger and Greg for providing this forum. It really helped sort things out for me...the good, the bad and the ugly. You guys take care.
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Hey Marshall, long time no hear from ya. How's life?
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"Honestly, I think I understand it. And, although it irks me so, I don't really hold it against you. I think it's about the same reason Thom is so hateful to me. I'm an apostate to your religion and a huge part of Seed culture is predicated on fear and loathing of any outsiders, but most especially infidels like me."
Antigen
Administrator
Nooooooooooooo...... :jawdrop: I think its because of your loving nature & infidel like qualities. Ya know maybe he did drive Art around for a while or maybe it was Kevin Costner & they might have even played Whitney Houston songs while in transit. Oh Yeah trust me (thats right you can't) I was never a body guard & never owned a risky Business pair of sunglasses either. :birthday: Have a Happy Easter :karma:
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I split twice also. This was back in 1972. The Seed is still too painfull to discuss much.
Maybe it worked for some people. Maybe if they hadn't been sent/put there they would have gone somewhere else where treatment wouldn't have left them so damaged.
I can believe any wild thing about Art and his cult leaders. They were that spooky. I am only glad that they didn't have us drinking kool-aid like another cult we know.
About 5 years into my Seed immersion, I was in Thailand at the Intercontinental Hotel. A young man came and sat at my table, being a flirt, and I saw he had a BEER in his hand! I looked around to make sure no one saw me with this 'druggie'! I was in THAILAND for god's sake! After that I came to my senses and had nothing more to do with the Seed.
I only wish its influence were so easily dismissed.
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I can't beelive exactly what was done to yu was done to me 30 years later. I wish each and every one of you had gone to the police. Maybe it would have stopped before it got to me and my beloved :'( ??? :rose: ....
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Hard to understand, I know, but brainwashing is hard to overcome. I think it was about ten years or so before I realized what I had been through. And just as long for my parents to see it, or maybe longer. Otherwise we surely would have trtied to stop any further abuse. It was like coming out of a thick fog.
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And as for going to the police, well, they sent us there to begin with! The courts, the cops, school counselors, shrinks, all were delighted to send us to the Seed. And no one was going to hear anything against it. Some people tried to speak out. There was a word for them, and I don't remember it, but it was some derogatory and dismissive term to indicate they were nothing but trouble-makers.
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Welcome, guest. You're talking about 1994? Man, I don't know if very many people from that late date have come around here. Looking forward to getting some info from that era.
I can vouch for what Cocoa says. In those days, the Seed was headline news. Controversial, for sure, but the cops, judges and most of officialdome came firmly down on Art's side. He was, after all, "fighting the drug war" ::puke::
Times have changed just a little. Thank God for small favors.
Welcome again.
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I was there in November of 74. I may remember you Marty. I was 16 and was a "newcomer" for 94 days. I guess I just didn't get it....Ha Ha. Anyway when they opened up in Cleveland I came up here and lasted about 4 more months. Quite the place heh ? I remember Robert, Cliff, Scott and especially Libby. I had a big crush on her. There was also Anne...
I also wanted to go out the door in back in Lauderdale but didn't know what was beyond the orange grove.
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The black dude was Robert Chun(sp?) and, last I heard, he's still Art's personal body guard and chauffeur. That was back around 2001, I think, just prior to the "Rap from Hell" when the Libbi faction confronted Art and the two factions split and the Seed, Inc. was disincorporated
AAre you serious?...............I`m going back to possibly 73,and and you are saying Libby and some of these people were still doing this stuff up till when??Wow chick!That is so damn wild!
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I was there in November of 74. I may remember you Marty. I was 16 and was a "newcomer" for 94 days. I guess I just didn't get it....Ha Ha. Anyway when they opened up in Cleveland I came up here and lasted about 4 more months. Quite the place heh ? I remember Robert, Cliff, Scott and especially Libby. I had a big crush on her. There was also Anne...
I also wanted to go out the door in back in Lauderdale but didn't know what was beyond the orange grove.
I must have been there when you were Bob,cause i remember thanksgiving that year,they called me to stand up and say something about thanksgiving,and all i could say was something about the crisp cold air and the smell food in the air...all these hands went u,people wanting to jump ass and come down on me,Libby or Annie,i can`t remember which,had mercy on me i guess, and told them to shut up the fuck up,and for me to just sit down.I remember some little kid about 12,always acting up jumping on the wall outside during exercise ,and acting like a monkey.They just couldn`t get to him..it would probably be considered ADD nowadays..wow,i could have used a little ADD back then,i was sensitive as hell.
Robert Chun was..for the lack of a better word,was my favorite ,and i couldn`t stand John Underwood.Annie was kind of intimidating,chewing on the insides of her mouth and looking around for her next victim.I can remember her voice the clearest today.
The wildest thing tho was when art was in the building the group leaders would ask if we "FEEL THAT?....ART`S IN THE BUILDING!",as if his presence was felt from another part of the building..That was typical cult stuff!Dude was like a rock star and he loved it.
and everybody would get goose bumps..what a bunch of shit!
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I have to say that "Straight Inc." was not the same as the Seed. I was there from 74 on and never did I see anyone get hit or anything remotely like that. I can see why you are resentful because of "Straight Inc." but that WAS NOT the Seed.
I also remember you as a kid and your mom and Thom. I know that you never came to the Seed and I'm sorry you had such a rough time at Straight Inc. but please don't say it was the Seed. The Seed changed my life.
I'm sorry but I just couldn't stand by and say nothing at all. I know you'll probably attack me but I had to say my peace.
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debbie del bueno was one cunt staff - a thief, a liar, total whore, prostituted for drugs -- pig that was relentless, and loved torturing little girls. loved it! thrived on it.
she died of a drug overdose. i think it was 1977-78.
i was 16. i glorified in that news.
isn't that sad. a kid happy some piece of shit died - almost poetic justice. she was the worst of the worst, and that is pretty evil coming from the seed.
the seed was a real horror show.
i'm an attorney now. but i don't live in the u.s. barker is lucky for that. because i'd file a class action at my own expense.
and surely win!!!