Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Aspen Education Group => Topic started by: Covergaard on May 29, 2007, 11:55:26 PM
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As I getting more help from people around Europe, pages in local languages would be available.
Also new pages would be creates as others do the hard work of finding and collecting newspaper articles about various facilities.
I have also received permission from Andrew share his story about the aftermath of his stay at Turn-about Ranch with the readers. I am grateful that he gave his permission.
http://www.secretprisonsforteens.dk/US/ ... tRanch.htm (http://www.secretprisonsforteens.dk/US/TurnaboutRanch.htm)
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As I getting more help from people around Europe, pages in local languages would be available.
Also new pages would be creates as others do the hard work of finding and collecting newspaper articles about various facilities.
I have also received permission from Andrew share his story about the aftermath of his stay at Turn-about Ranch with the readers. I am grateful that he gave his permission.
http://www.secretprisonsforteens.dk/US/ ... tRanch.htm (http://www.secretprisonsforteens.dk/US/TurnaboutRanch.htm)
..Due to strict laws of Utah, the inmates must go without privileges that they enjoy at home like: Tobacco, alcohol and sex, which is considered especially harsh or even inhuman for foreign students.
Oh, my goodness, we should shut these abusive places down. Can you imagine a parent wanting their teenager to go without Tobacco, alcohol and sex for any extended period of time. I think it would be only fair to revise the rules and allow the kids to have a beer and cigarette break after every mile they hike. These kids have a right to choose for themselves….This is inhumane…. Their rights have been violated…. Ha,Ha,Ha
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Coming from an ass-rape promoter like TheWho, it "strikes me as funny" that he feels kids aren't "violated" :roll:
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Oh, my goodness, we should shut these abusive places down. Can you imagine a parent wanting their teenager to go without Tobacco, alcohol and sex for any extended period of time. I think it would be only fair to revise the rules and allow the kids to have a beer and cigarette break after every mile they hike. These kids have a right to choose for themselves….This is inhumane…. Their rights have been violated…. Ha,Ha,Ha
I can inform you that the age of consent in Denmark are 15 years. We have no lower limit on alcohol drinking age but an age-limit on alcohol and toccaco buying, which is 16.
Most Danes are served alcohol for their confirmation (aged 14-15) by their parents as a signal that they have entered the adulthood. (Not legally but in the eyes of God).
It is then that the teenager has to show the parents but not least the teenager self that he or she can take responsibility by demonstrating that they can control their drinking before they hit the floor. If they can not, then the - in Denmark - very expensive drivers licence would be very out of reach. (It cost about 1000 dollars to get a drivers licence). They have about 3 years to demonstrate that responsibility because you have to be 18 before you can drive a car in Denmark.
16 years old teenagers can obtain a licence at the city hall, and then they can buy all sorts of alcohol - not just beer and wine - all sorts.
Does it mean that teenagers are dying in the streets of Denmark due to heavy alcohol consumption? No, it doesn't because they drink it in the open where the parents can talk with them and give them advise. They don't have to hide anything and it is not exciting to break the law.
Some countries are free to create a full setup for a secret life for their children by the use of zero-tolerance, but then they should not be surprised when they suddenly stumble over things, they were not aware that their child would be able to do.
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But even if the age of consent is lower it should not be considered abusive or inhumane to deny alcohol and cigarettes to teenagers (in my opinion). All and all I am glad you brought this to light. When the schools are called abusive, by some, parents sometimes imagine much harsher conditions. When abuse is defined as not being able to smoke or drink alcohol it brings the definition into perspective somewhat. Parents need to be aware that this is what is meant by abuse.
I think the term abuse is relative and calling a school abusive can carry different meanings for different kids. When we were in highschool many thought they could get a lawyer to allow them to chew gum in school because it wasn’t illegal and there were no laws against it. They felt the school was being abusive towards them, so I can see your point.
Thanks Covergaard
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One of the comments was:
thats fucking intense man. Yea i woke up at 2:00 to 2 transporters at first i thought they were russian mafia. At turn about i did my best at roundy then it went downhill from there. I passed notes, i stole, i swore, i wiped my butt on some kids pillow, i did everything wrong. I went on 2 desert walks in a row. Ill never forget just walkin in the sand for 20 miles with only a peanut butter sandwich in my stomach and some water with sand in it.
And what's the 'therapeutic' benefit of that 'treatment'?
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One of the comments was:
thats fucking intense man. Yea i woke up at 2:00 to 2 transporters at first i thought they were russian mafia. At turn about i did my best at roundy then it went downhill from there. I passed notes, i stole, i swore, i wiped my butt on some kids pillow, i did everything wrong. I went on 2 desert walks in a row. Ill never forget just walkin in the sand for 20 miles with only a peanut butter sandwich in my stomach and some water with sand in it.
And what's the 'therapeutic' benefit of that 'treatment'?
I didn’t see anyone referring to that as therapeutic. I am sure, especially the kid whose pillow he sat on, didn’t find it therapeutic at all.
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I think the term abuse is relative and calling a school abusive can carry different meanings for different kids. When we were in highschool many thought they could get a lawyer to allow them to chew gum in school because it wasn’t illegal and there were no laws against it. They felt the school was being abusive towards them, so I can see your point.
Thanks Covergaard
Yes, Turn-about would be abusive for an European teenager, who have lived a life with free access those things. If someone forced you to live in Saud-Arabia where there is no alcohol at all (not official and severely punished with whippings, if your are caught) I think that you also would find it too much. That is exactly what happened to these teenager in "Brat Camp" and "Teenager ausser Kontrolle", which came from UK, The Netherlands and Germany.
Second of all I find it very hard to understand why a POW can have more rights than a child at the ranch. Our troops in Iraq arrested some terrorists and forced them to sit in a stone circle for 5 hours. That incident went to trial and it was illegal. But sitting in stone circle all day is reality for the teenagers placed in Roundy. Please explain to me why a suicide bomber should be better protected than a child.
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One of the comments was:
thats fucking intense man. Yea i woke up at 2:00 to 2 transporters at first i thought they were russian mafia. At turn about i did my best at roundy then it went downhill from there. I passed notes, i stole, i swore, i wiped my butt on some kids pillow, i did everything wrong. I went on 2 desert walks in a row. Ill never forget just walkin in the sand for 20 miles with only a peanut butter sandwich in my stomach and some water with sand in it.
And what's the 'therapeutic' benefit of that 'treatment'?
I didn’t see anyone referring to that as therapeutic. I am sure, especially the kid whose pillow he sat on, didn’t find it therapeutic at all.
Maybe it was a reaction to having his toilet paper away as punishment. That's if they even provide TP.
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One of the comments was:
thats fucking intense man. Yea i woke up at 2:00 to 2 transporters at first i thought they were russian mafia. At turn about i did my best at roundy then it went downhill from there. I passed notes, i stole, i swore, i wiped my butt on some kids pillow, i did everything wrong. I went on 2 desert walks in a row. Ill never forget just walkin in the sand for 20 miles with only a peanut butter sandwich in my stomach and some water with sand in it.
And what's the 'therapeutic' benefit of that 'treatment'?
I didn’t see anyone referring to that as therapeutic. I am sure, especially the kid whose pillow he sat on, didn’t find it therapeutic at all.
Maybe it was a reaction to having his toilet paper away as punishment. That's if they even provide TP.
Could be, but I would still be pretty pissed if that was my pillow.....
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I think the term abuse is relative and calling a school abusive can carry different meanings for different kids. When we were in highschool many thought they could get a lawyer to allow them to chew gum in school because it wasn’t illegal and there were no laws against it. They felt the school was being abusive towards them, so I can see your point.
Thanks Covergaard
Yes, Turn-about would be abusive for an European teenager, who have lived a life with free access those things. If someone forced you to live in Saud-Arabia where there is no alcohol at all (not official and severely punished with whippings, if your are caught) I think that you also would find it too much. That is exactly what happened to these teenager in "Brat Camp" and "Teenager ausser Kontrolle", which came from UK, The Netherlands and Germany.
Second of all I find it very hard to understand why a POW can have more rights than a child at the ranch. Our troops in Iraq arrested some terrorists and forced them to sit in a stone circle for 5 hours. That incident went to trial and it was illegal. But sitting in stone circle all day is reality for the teenagers placed in Roundy. Please explain to me why a suicide bomber should be better protected than a child.
POW’s have the Geneva Convention which is a set of rules that need to be followed regardless of what country they are from. Some countries may find them non-abusive others may not, but they need to be followed regardless. There are laws that are set up to protect children in the US and agencies dedicated to protecting them (i.e. department of Social services). But for the most part it is left up to the discretion of the individual families/parents to define appropriate discipline. The definition of abuse varies greatly in the US. There are some groups who feel it is abusive to spank your kid or take away their cell phones and like you said in Saudi Arabia it is okay to whip the kids.
So in some respects the suicide bombers appear to have more rights because they are so well defined and each country needs to be held accountable and the visibility is greater. But there is less tolerance towards people who abuse kids in this country than towards suicide bombers.
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No they whip adults in Saudi Arabia, and kids but...
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I dont think i have ever met an American who has said they think it is abusive to take away a cell phone. Does anybody know such a person?
But speaking of Abuse. in the event that a kid uses group therapy or even its one on 1 version to claim that they are a victim or physical or sexual abuse at home it represents a potential conflict of itnerest for the program. If it enacts its moral and in some states legal duty and reports such a thing to the appropriate authorities it stands to loose a lot of money.
I wonder how many programs have actually done this? Those who worked in a program- What was the precedure when Jr would claim daddy innapropriately touched?
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Couldn't do much as supposedly it represented a conflict of interest given the fact that daddy was paying for junior.
All in all a neat way to shut your abused kid up for a few years.
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Nope we don't consider withholding cigarettes, liquor, or cell phones abusive. What you read in survivor statements is what we consider abuse. I won't go over the bullet points because the who knows them.
I think in the Who's Watching the Kids? Documentary they show how a girl was sent to SCL before she could report abuse at home, or something like that. I also remember a particularly disgusting account given by a woman who was sexually abused by her father, she was sent to a Lester Roloff home and later to a place in Louisiana I think, New Bethany? She had been involved with the cps system but when the pressure started to mount he sent her away. She endured some sick "treatment" and even worse beatings, in program and at home. But yeah it happens I'm sure.
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Nope we don't consider withholding cigarettes, liquor, or cell phones abusive. What you read in survivor statements is what we consider abuse. I won't go over the bullet points because the who knows them.
perhaps there is this one woman from grovers corner or some such.... :wink:
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Get a grip you guys!!! There are some real issues involved in these places regarding diminishment of ego, punative measures being disguised as therapy, etc. and yet you all are venting about cigarettes & alcohol. People are not going to take you seriously. Many people who are in these places DO have addiction problems and a mature person would realize that certain rules are there to protect not only the individual but the group. Do these Europeans believe they are being abused when they can't smoke at a movie or in a restaurant in the US? I don't think so. I also think this issue is a red herring. On a basic level people are in these places because they cannot effectively function and are often dangerous to themselves or others. As a result, behaviors have to change. Now that is a different issue than the methods used to effect change and I do have a problem with some of those.
As a sideline, as a new member to the forum, some of your language and your avatars indicate that you don't "get it" and are more interested in self-indulgent, angry, angst-filled rants than real change. It's like the few environmentalist who dress up in dolphin suits and look like kooks making it harder for those of us who are trying to bring serious issues to the forefront and to an audience who is suspicious. You're going to be dismissed by the population you're trying to reach.
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Get a grip you guys!!! There are some real issues involved in these places regarding diminishment of ego, punative measures being disguised as therapy, etc. and yet you all are venting about cigarettes & alcohol. People are not going to take you seriously. Many people who are in these places DO have addiction problems and a mature person would realize that certain rules are there to protect not only the individual but the group. Do these Europeans believe they are being abused when they can't smoke at a movie or in a restaurant in the US? I don't think so. I also think this issue is a red herring. On a basic level people are in these places because they cannot effectively function and are often dangerous to themselves or others. As a result, behaviors have to change. Now that is a different issue than the methods used to effect change and I do have a problem with some of those.
As a sideline, as a new member to the forum, some of your language and your avatars indicate that you don't "get it" and are more interested in self-indulgent, angry, angst-filled rants than real change. It's like the few environmentalist who dress up in dolphin suits and look like kooks making it harder for those of us who are trying to bring serious issues to the forefront and to an audience who is suspicious. You're going to be dismissed by the population you're trying to reach.
I'm thinking you don't get it much either. These kids are being killed and abused. Why the fuck would we be happy about that?
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Maybe if I painted you the picture of Denmark 2007, you will understand why keeping back alcohol from a 16 year old teenager would be abuse.
First in Denmark every 16 old teenager can go to the city hall and obtain an ID-card, which gives access to buy every sort of alcohol you can think off. There is not limit at all once a person has this card.
Second we do not have have a lower limit on alcohol consumption. An old danish tradition calls for teenagers drinking alcohol for the first time when they are celebrating the day where they have been in church and have confirmed their Christian belief. From then on they can negotiate with their parents and the parents can legally give them what they can agree on. The age for this event vary depenting on the countryside (13-15).
But we have seen drunken teens younger. Reports from our Night owls teams have seen drunken children down to age 10. Such parents would receive a warning letter from the police or even risk being called up to the city hall in order to give the entire family an alcohol overhaul. Children learn a lot by seing. As a parent you can not pour beer after beer down in the crater and teach your children soberness.
In Denmark we have no treatment centers where you can hold a child against its will, unless it has done something criminal, but I have to say that alcohol related deaths among teenagers and even deaths caused by ordinary people committing DUI are so rare that such a story make frontpage news all over Denmark. In all 2006 the number of people killed due to alcohol related car accidents were 73. All of Denmark - the entire year.
Why have chosen to make alcohol available for our youth? The main reason was that we would learn them to know the dangers of alcohol before they get access to the most lethal instrument, normal people can get hold on - a car. We wanted to force parents to discuss this issue. The only way is to let the teenagers buy their alcohol on their own. And it works. The numbers show it. Out of 100,000 people about 80 is in jail. In the states, we are talking 10 times that number. I do not have the number for people killed per 5,000,000 people in your country, but I just guess that the number is higher than 73 (http://http://www.sikkertrafik.dk/2a03e80).
Alcohol is also serving another purpose. Socializing! Denmark is a small country. We need to let our youth meet people from other countries. That is why our new 12 point grade system is made in such a way that a foreign student have to do less work to get access to an university than a young Dane has to do and that is why the most important element at our universities are the Fridaybar, where students meet over some beers or glasses of wine after study. Most Danes do even choose their university depending of how well-equipped the Fredaybar is.
We are a small country which almost none natural ressources. Our way of surviving is a combination of networking and innovation. A lot of your companies have invested in Denmark like Microsoft and Intel.
But our way of networking include alcohol. Not drinking binge, but a beer or two. However that does also mean that you have no business of working or studying in Denmark, if you can not join in. None will hurt you, but none would speak to you. It will be like being on a speaking ban. So if you for a personal or religious reason don't drink alcohol, stay away for your own sake.
I could of course mind my own business and let you live your life, but the reason I came here was because WWASP and Aspen are working to force your culture down over our head with shows like Brat Camp etc. WWASP has offered the authorities to take teenagers from UK to TB just in order to show that all the solutions they have in UK does not work nearly as good as WWASP can go. Aspen have shipped teenagers from UK, Germany and the Netherlands to Utah with the same message. Use our double-standard way of living and imprison your children. Then all would be good.
When we can show good results, a low number of casulties both in our roads and in generally due to violence, alcohol and deaths, I dont thing that the cultural export should continue and taking basic elements away from a child from another culture are abuse.
Brat Camp and similar concepts reminds me about the Rabbit-Proof Fence (http://http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0252444/) where Aboriginal children separated from their parents by the State. They were also forced to live by rules totally strange and unnatural to them. European children forced to stay in the State must experience such a stay exactly as those children from the stolen generation (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_generations).
I hope you understand how different our cultures are.