Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Act UP on July 11, 2007, 01:17:11 AM
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My son, 17, has been diagnosed with Bipolar 2 and currently is stable via medication. He has been in individual therapy and we are going to start family work (again).
He has struggled since early childhood with low self esteem, depression, possible ODD, ADD, passive/aggressive, anger. As I understand it, he is bordering on a diagnosis of personality disorder. The PD is the scariest of all, since only by changing the way he views the world and his place in it can he be saved from this diagnosis and all the unhappiness it brings. His thinking and way of looking at the world is truly skewed.
I understand that DBT (and CBT) has been extremely effective with adolescents like him. Does anyone know of a program that uses these therapies and not just behavioral modification to achieve compliance?
He is currently attending a dept of ed funded TBS, which in the past I have described as benignly negligent. I have my own guilt for accepting this placement but have done so because of the fear that a different placement might be “overkill”. I am afraid that if we do not act now, he could lead a very difficult and lonely life.
It seems impossible to cut through the façade and lies if a program is intent on enrolling your child. If anyone has information that a genuine program exists I would really appreciate hearing about it.
I understand that one size does not fit all.
Thanks.
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edited due to excessive fail.
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My son, 17, has been diagnosed with Bipolar 2 and currently is stable via medication. He has been in individual therapy and we are going to start family work (again).
He has struggled since early childhood with low self esteem, depression, possible ODD, ADD, passive/aggressive, anger. As I understand it, he is bordering on a diagnosis of personality disorder. The PD is the scariest of all, since only by changing the way he views the world and his place in it can he be saved from this diagnosis and all the unhappiness it brings. His thinking and way of looking at the world is truly skewed.
I understand that DBT (and CBT) has been extremely effective with adolescents like him. Does anyone know of a program that uses these therapies and not just behavioral modification to achieve compliance?
He is currently attending a dept of ed funded TBS, which in the past I have described as benignly negligent. I have my own guilt for accepting this placement but have done so because of the fear that a different placement might be “overkill”. I am afraid that if we do not act now, he could lead a very difficult and lonely life.
It seems impossible to cut through the façade and lies if a program is intent on enrolling your child. If anyone has information that a genuine program exists I would really appreciate hearing about it.
I understand that one size does not fit all.
Thanks.
The more I think about your post the less I like my first response. Let me first say I'm no expert when it comes to programs, bipolar disorder, or most other things. I can claim I'm an expert internet troll, but that isn't the sort of advice you are looking for.
I know a few things about programs. I worked in two for about 4 years.
I do know what you are hoping for with your son is very noble, but it won't come to him in a program.
You want to avoid this:
I am afraid that if we do not act now, he could lead a very difficult and lonely life.
It isn't up to you to determine what sort of life your son lives. That decision is his alone and most likely will be years in the making through a process of trial and error.
Programs can protect a child, they can help a child, they can harm a child, and they even kill children. You can get all of the above at every single program of any sort. But what you can't get from a program is the opportunity to screw up and live with it. Programs are an artificial world that cuts a kid off from the cause and effect reality of society.
What artificially imposed consequence can even come close to the learning gained from natural consequences, which are incurred by each and everyone of us every single time we make a mistake? An artificial world can't prepare anyone for the real world, and I don't mean the MTV version of the real world either. It doesn't get you ready for holding a job, paying your bills, doing your laundry, or any other obvious thing you need to do to get by.
I'm happy that your son is stabilized. Unfortunately as soon as he comes home he will go into a tail spin. He has been stabilized in the artificial world of a TBS that doesn't adequately prepare him for reality.
Expect him to fail, because sadly it will happen.
You can help him though.
Bring him home and let him find his own way. Stop treating him like he is something out of the ordinary for having Bipolar disorder and all the rest of the alphabet soup syndromes. In the end he is a person not the disorder.
Don't start every day asking yourself what you have to do for him. Start everyday asking him what he is going to do today for himself and nod. Don't smother him with your opinion. Bottom line opinions are like assholes.. everyone has one. Let him figure out his own asshole.. its a painful process but it is a needed one. Don't treat his failures in life as a problem, but learn to embrace them as a learning experience for him and you.
I guess in short I'm saying bring the kid home and let him grow up before you end up with a nonfunctional couch potato in your basement who is 25 years old and can't even hold a job at the nearest 7/11.
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The best advice I could give you is to take him home and stop putting him under the diagnosis microscope. Who dxed this kid and at what age? It could be that all of this treatment is only making the kid worse. It's hard to be normal when everyone treats you like a crazy person.
Start talking to your kid and listen to what he thinks should happen in his treatment. You shouldn't force the kid into any long term treatment without his consent, thats the beginning of the end of any protection he has against abuse because what he says no longer has weight. Abusers use this crack as a foot hold to become the person that controls parent/child communication and thus become the parents only authority on what "really" is happening to the kid.
Short term emergence hospitalizations are different because their rare and are meant only as a short term option.
Last thing, you can't force a person with mental illness to "get better" and not do some harm to the person. Sometimes you have to understand that these things get better with gentle approaches and years of patience. To often Doctors and parents want to fix the mentally ill by resorting to brutal methods. You find that after years of this the person being helped is worse off.
I guess what I'm saying is is don't use long term residential placements, it's not worth the risk and proof of any real benefit is shady at best. Make sure your kid isn't getting needlessly pinned with Dx(diagnosis). Talk, listen, and ensure that what your child says has real power in determining what happens to him. That last bit did wonders for me and I avoided getting placed in abusive facilities or any of the bizarre treatment my egotistical and desperate doctor wanted to subject me to after his pills didn't fix me.
Good luck, I understand from the kid perspective that living with a kid with mental illness ain't easy.
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My son, 17, has been diagnosed with Bipolar 2 and currently is stable via medication. He has been in individual therapy and we are going to start family work (again).
He has struggled since early childhood with low self esteem, depression, possible ODD, ADD, passive/aggressive, anger. As I understand it, he is bordering on a diagnosis of personality disorder.
From what it sounds like to me, he is a somewhat normal teenager with the baggage normally associated. Who stuck these labels on him? Was it the same people who recommended the program, or was it the program itself?
The PD is the scariest of all, since only by changing the way he views the world and his place in it can he be saved from this diagnosis and all the unhappiness it brings.
That is a dangerous philosophy. Trying to change the way a person views the world around him requires a lot of pressure, and it rarely works. Generally, the more pressure you exert on a person, the more he will resist. Teenagers grow up, and when they do, they attempt to break free. This is a natural part of growing up. In my opinion, the best thing you can do is let him be free. The more you try and hold onto him, the more extreme his rebellion is going to have to be to counter your attempts a control. It's a battle you will not win. You may gain compliance in the short term, only to have him rebel even more when the pressure is released... and that isn't even to mention the resentment he may harbor for having his individual choice suppressed.
His thinking and way of looking at the world is truly skewed.
I understand that DBT (and CBT) has been extremely effective with adolescents like him. Does anyone know of a program that uses these therapies and not just behavioral modification to achieve compliance?
He is currently attending a dept of ed funded TBS, which in the past I have described as benignly negligent. I have my own guilt for accepting this placement but have done so because of the fear that a different placement might be “overkill”. I am afraid that if we do not act now, he could lead a very difficult and lonely life.
It would be a huge mistake to let fear guide your decisions in this matter. Programs rely on fear in their marketing. They know that when parents are afraid for the lives/safety/wellbeing of their children they are often willing to make extreme choices. Fear makes them more pliable... More willing to set back and "listen to the advice of the experts". In any case, if your child does not want help, forcing it on him is not going to ever help (for a myriad of reasons too many to list here).
It seems impossible to cut through the façade and lies if a program is intent on enrolling your child.
Yes. It is impossible.
If anyone has information that a genuine program exists I would really appreciate hearing about it.
So why ask this?
My advice is not to trust anybody willing to refer to programs. That includes parents who my be getting paid for referrals. Programs will pay for covert advertisement, and there is no way to know, ultimately, whether or not a program is a good or bad one. It's that simple. It's like playing Russian roulette with 5 bullets in the gun.
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P.S. I hate the image you added which I guess was the goal.
I AM REACHING OUT..... but you are not hearing me, telling me to throw every single thing out. How about when they say the same things and are at home.... after taking a bottle full of pills, or cut their wrists? I GET IT AND I AM NOT GIVING UP YET.
Funny Psy told me to come here and now I am told to go back there. Thanx.
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I want to address some points you made and also clarify a few of my own.
You are right in advising against projecting my fears for my child’s future happiness because of an unspoken DX. It is not my place, it is unfair and can be detrimental to him and our relationship. Who am I to judge his future? But that is my fear, and I was being honest about it.
“what you can't get from a program is the opportunity to screw up and live with it.”
This is true but as we also know this is true w/o a program. My child made 2-3 suicide attempts and IF he had succeeded I could never have lived with it.
“Programs are an artificial world that cuts a kid off from the cause and effect reality of society.”
Maybe. My child lives in society as you and I do but he does not get it! He is above the rules that we abide by, even those of us to pride ourselves in our Acting UP! But he does not see the cause and effect of HIS actions. He interprets effects as external causes.
To have unbiased information on who are running these programs, what their motivations are and what the documented results are would be invaluable. It is very difficult (if not impossible) for me to trust anyone with my child, for fear that they might have little or no good motives.
In an ideal world, wouldn't a genuinely therapeutic program be able to create an environment where the client could benefit, that they could see themselves and their role in that microcosm of society, their causes and the effects would be tangible and indisputable.
I know that I and many other parents are grasping for straws in the dark… WE GET IT! But doing nothing is also putting their lives at risk this is why I am here. When he is ready to do for himself that will be a wonderful day. I am only trying to offer him the best opportunity and it is up to him to take it or not. Sort of leading the horse to water.
“What artificially imposed consequence can even come close to the learning gained from natural consequences, which are incurred by each and everyone of us every single time we make a mistake?”
He feels there are no consequences… within the home, or even within the school's society. He weighs the effort it would take to just try, just to make an effort and he just does not want to make that effort.
He has no interest in being part of the family, interacting with anyone, shows no basic respect for those he lives with at home. He has very few friends (maybe 2) and spends too many hours isolated. I want to shake him and say wake up.... but I know I can not, anymore. That’s why I thought maybe a professional could help him make things "click"
“He has been stabilized in the artificial world of a TBS that doesn't adequately prepare him for reality.”
He comes home each week from Friday to Sunday, at a minimum. This can be and often is a comfort for all of us. While he is at school we talk whenever he wants (cell phones are allowed.) When he feels he needs more time away from school he comes home early to where we have no means to keep him engaged. I understand it needs to come from him. We are trying to just keep some level of contact with the “outside” world in his life until he is ready to do it himself.
The school has an opportunity to provide a meaningful therapeutic environment for him, to hold him accountable (as I have not been able to do) for his actions. They could be taking even just “baby steps” to help him learn some basic coping strategies, take ownership of himself, his actions, his relationships… and hopefully his dreams and goals… but they don’t.
“Bring him home and let him find his own way. Stop treating him like he is something out of the ordinary for having Bipolar disorder and all the rest of the alphabet soup syndromes. In the end he is a person not the disorder.”
You are right. It is not the dx of Bipolar that is the problem. It is his refusal to live in the world with others with at least a minimum of respect and accountability. It hurts us to see his lack of effort, hope, goals. He acknowledges he is lonely and wants friends but avoids making any friends because “friendships hurt too much”.
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I think you need to focus a bit more on the right now and the future rather than the past.
I never said much about sending your son to a program.
Everything my post said was for one purpose:
What I think you should do now.
Not what you did.
You came asking for advice and I gave you some. The right or wrong of you sending your boy to a program isn't for me to judge. I'm not in your position and I have no actual knowledge of the situation. I can tell you that from my experience keeping him in the program is a disservice to him.
That is in fact if it is even a program.
You said he comes home every weekend. Most programs don't have anything like this. This home visitation gives him access to telephones, computers, and all sorts of ways of reporting abuse. Seems like a pretty transparent place to me from what you are talking about.
He also seems to get some sort of actual therapy at the place that includes family therapy.
Most programs don't have any of that sort of thing either.
Unless you give me some sort of idea about the place I really can't continue the conversation in a more useful format.
My advice now?
Bring him home as soon as you can.
also..
What is the name of this place? Doesn't sound like any sort of facility I've heard about for quite sometime.
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Yes, there are programs that are genuinely therapeutic, although perhaps not fitting what your son needs.
Unlike many (most??) here, I do think many "programs" do a lot of good for a lot of teens. That said, I don't think that is what your son should have now. The right therapist, using an effective approach (be that DBT, CBT or maybe XYZ). and involving the family, is important, and it appears that is roughly what you are trying. If something more intensive is in order, and his current therapist should have some good sense of that in fairly short order, if not already, something residential may be right.
Given your comments and apparent prospects for DBT, you might talk with: McLean Hospital's Acute Residential and Partial Hospitalization program for adolescents (Belmont. MA); and Brattleboro Retreat (Retreat Healthcare), Brattleboro, VT.
You might also consider an Outward Bound program to build self-esteem after any residential treatment, if the treating doctors think it appropriate/worthwhile. On some of their programs, I believe parents and/or families are welcomed.
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I'd be cautious with DBT or CBT given the behavioralist roots of the therapy. The articles I've read do indicate that the treatment has been successful in reducing suicidal behaviors in its patients for borderline personality disorder. Though the articles seemed to indicate the application of CBT/DBT in an outpatient setting rather than in the environment of a program.
For otherside:
What experience do you base your opinion that programs have the potential for good for teens? Both psy and I are first hand witnesses as to evil of programs.
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I disagree with the advise from "otherside" regarding Outward Bound.
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t= ... ward+bound (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=16526&highlight=outward+bound)
As far as the other residential treatment centers go, its a crapshoot. By your description of the school he is in, how were they negligent? Can you bring him home and seek outside sources from there? I think having your child away from you is not going to make him bond with the family. Instead of spending money on what is marketed as a "fixim' up program." Spend those resources on local medical professionals. Even if you need extra help in your home to work with him one on one.
Check out this link, you might be able to find information to help you seek appropriate care for your son. Please stay away from any type of "program." (TBS, Wilderness Therapy &/or Bootcamps) Your direct hands on involvement in his treatment is what will help him through hard times with his illness.
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I understand your need to feel like you have tried everything, especially with him getting closer to 18. It is scary. It sounds like you have done a lot to help him already and it is probably irresponsible for those on this site, myself included, to tell you what to do having never met your son. Speaking in general terms I will say that programs can do a lot of good, but my experience has been that the further a child gets from the 14/15 year old range, the less effective programs become for a child. Again, this is a generalization. My advice would be to talk with your therapist (maybe a few therapists) about whether or not your child needs a program. It may be that a program is the right choice for your child, but it could also be that you have done everything that is likely to help and you have come to the point that you have to let go and let him make his own decisions. Again, get advice from your local therapist before taking advice from anyone on this board, including myself.
You can feel free to pm me with any specific questions you have.
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Waygookin – The school is transparent. Which is why we accepted the lack of therapeutic services for our child, for the community there, and for all the families. What is not transparent about the school is if you do not know the right questions to ask you will not get the information.
We compromised on this placement because he can come home, has his telephone and his calls are unmonitored – allowing us to feel confident that he is not being “mistreated”, just undertreated. (I guess better to have guilt over that than something much worse.)
I doubt this place qualifies as a “program” in the sense it is used on this board. It is a boarding school for emotionally fragile teens and funded through our state’s dept of education. Our initial hope in his attending there was that he would be safe during the days when we could not be with him and that he would be able to attend a school that is suppose to understand his emotional and intellectual needs and work with him. Because of the ADD/LD issues he has low self esteem (traumatized in elementary school with some teachers from hell) inspite of above average IQ (very common). He suffers from the “learned helplessness” syndrome and here we hoped they would be more hands on in the classroom, some teachers are some aren’t. You have heard of this facility – it is in numerous threads – but being of the paranoid type, I am not comfortable in saying…. I’ll think about it.
The little I know aout DBT I like, that it can help (not force) the person to see that at times their thinking is faulty and this faulty thinking is what hurts them, gets them into dangerous situations and/or isolates them. That at the same time in having the goal of changing their faulty thinking they also accept themselves for who they are and where they are at.
My dream of the ideal setting – the "client" and their entourage (family and significant others) are essential to the program - each doing their work individually and collectively – without distractions of TV, jobs, telephones… working together. Having the luxury of sleeping in a bed, eating decent food and not hiking 5 miles a day in 90-degree weather. Sounds like a great vacation we just need to bring our own therapist along.
Otherside – His therapist, the school social worker, and his psychiatrist all agree that an outdoor program would be great for him – but none have any first hand info. I was really frustrated by the fact that the s.w. could not recommend something. She game me the name of “The Camp Lady” DUH! The therapist recommended Family Foundation and that made my jaw drop, at the very least I know that he does not know!
I know of McLean and is a great facility. I know first hand people who have been there and it has been very helpful in their lives. Thankfully he does not need acute care. I have spoken with my son about an outward-bound type of program that just has a “vacation” focus not with an emphasis on “difficult” teens – this he is considering, WOW!
Nilla – the school is “benignly negligent” - they do not want to go beyond their comfort zone of blahzay. One example of mediocre is they lead us to believe that the kids come home every other weekend, but in fact 90% come home every weekend, they have minimal staff coverage and no activities, no access to the computer lab, no access to the library, no nothing, even the kitchen is on a modified schedule. It is total boredom for the students. They are not open to any change of enrichment or even suggestions. They have no use for the parents or guardians of their students either. In their opinion we are the cause of our children's problems. Their views on MI is archaic. They do not follow any evidence based practices and do not see the importance of collaborative effort. They are unwilling to challenge themselves so how can they challenge our children in any meaningful way to foster growth and ownership?
My son is (just) getting by there – my issues are that while he is willing to be there I beg them to make the most of it therapeutically/emotionally for him and us. As for coming home and staying - he is better there because at least he attends school, he interacts with other students, and he likes most of his residence staff. This is good. It also gives him a break from his mother.... me - this is good too.
So not to throw the baby out with the bath water it works on some level but has the potential to be so much more….
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Wilderness programs are a very poor place to deal with Bipolar Disorder.
More later when I've sobered up some.
I still think you need to specify exactly what school, facility, or whatever it is your son is at.
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I understand your need to feel like you have tried everything, especially with him getting closer to 18. It is scary. It sounds like you have done a lot to help him already and it is probably irresponsible for those on this site, myself included, to tell you what to do having never met your son. Speaking in general terms I will say that programs can do a lot of good, but my experience has been that the further a child gets from the 14/15 year old range, the less effective programs become for a child. Again, this is a generalization. My advice would be to talk with your therapist (maybe a few therapists) about whether or not your child needs a program. It may be that a program is the right choice for your child, but it could also be that you have done everything that is likely to help and you have come to the point that you have to let go and let him make his own decisions. Again, get advice from your local therapist before taking advice from anyone on this board, including myself.
You can feel free to pm me with any specific questions you have.
You still work at HLA don't you?
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Nilla – the school is “benignly negligent” - they do not want to go beyond their comfort zone of blahzay. One example of mediocre is they lead us to believe that the kids come home every other weekend, but in fact 90% come home every weekend, they have minimal staff coverage and no activities, no access to the computer lab, no access to the library, no nothing, even the kitchen is on a modified schedule. It is total boredom for the students. They are not open to any change of enrichment or even suggestions. They have no use for the parents or guardians of their students either. In their opinion we are the cause of our children's problems. Their views on MI is archaic. They do not follow any evidence based practices and do not see the importance of collaborative effort. They are unwilling to challenge themselves so how can they challenge our children in any meaningful way to foster growth and ownership?
This alone tells me everything I need to know. This place has very little interest in working on the social and family dynamics of the problem. It doesn't really matter what sort of therapy the kid gets while at the place.
Sadly this sort of mentality and practices show up in the entire industry than they don't.
My advice now is for you to pull your son out of that place immediately.
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I understand the worst thing I can do is INSIST that he stay at school. In reality we are willing to accept this poor excuse of RTS for lack of something better and that includes HOME.
I love my son, he is a great guy and I have every bit of faith and hope that he will get through this period - inspite of mediocre schools, the abuse he experienced in the public schools system, the mental health system, society's bias, etc.
Being at the school and having some structure where he does interact with others is better than him sitting on his ass, doing nothing, obsessing, isolated, and spiraling.
We have seen the other side and will do what ever it takes to keep him from that pit again. I know there are no guarantees regardless of anyone's best efforts.
Thanks for your feedback... and beer at this hour? What is the chaser?
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I understand your need to feel like you have tried everything, especially with him getting closer to 18. It is scary. It sounds like you have done a lot to help him already and it is probably irresponsible for those on this site, myself included, to tell you what to do having never met your son. Speaking in general terms I will say that programs can do a lot of good, but my experience has been that the further a child gets from the 14/15 year old range, the less effective programs become for a child. Again, this is a generalization. My advice would be to talk with your therapist (maybe a few therapists) about whether or not your child needs a program. It may be that a program is the right choice for your child, but it could also be that you have done everything that is likely to help and you have come to the point that you have to let go and let him make his own decisions. Again, get advice from your local therapist before taking advice from anyone on this board, including myself.
You can feel free to pm me with any specific questions you have.
You still work at HLA don't you?
Nope.
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The answer is YES you can find a therapeutic boarding school for your son. This is coming from another parent who was able to find such place for my deeply troubled child and she is a graduate and doing wonderfully.
There are too many people on this forum without first hand experience as a parent. Many are still deeply troubled chidden and young adults unable to move on with their life. I would not take their council since it is clouded by their overly strong opinions against any out side the home placement (which sounds unrealistic to keep your son home).
Watch who is responding to you, they are from a place that has no experience with parenting and they have never felt the deep loving obligation we have as a parent to help and facilitate our child's chance at wellness. Being at home, vegetating and getting worse is not the solution as they have all suggested for you to do?
I believe you need professional advice not opinions from a bunch of kids or people who worked at some facility that was abusive. Hire an educational counselor, one who is qualified by their professional academic experience and credentials to understand the educational needs and emotional and psychological needs of your child. There are place out there for him!
There are abusive placements so make sure you are careful in your choice. There are also unstable kids on this site so also make sure you pay attention to who is giving you advice!
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Sure there are places a child can stay with good results. I had an relative in such a place and I could visit the person every single day and when it was not possible due to my work, I could phone HER mobile-phone. It was allowed to have it open during certain hours every single day.
It was the open inpatient unit for psychologically diseases (clinical depression). Every single day they had some hours where we relatives could visit and go off ground for an hour if we wanted to.
I am 40 year old and have grown up in my parents house until I moved out at an age of 20 shortly before I left school and got my first full-time job in the industry where I have worked since.
So we are not all former detainees in programs and I am parent of two children.
If you had a day-program in your city for youth, which would be catagorized as "at-risk" a lot of placements would not be necessary.
Second of all, develop in-house treatment at the local hospital where you can drop in every day if you like and where they can continue to study at their local school as distance-students. We are living 2007 and at long of computerized solutions for distance-students have been invented.
But what most of the people here at forum advocate against is outsourcing of parenting and making a business out of warehousing children until they can be trown out on the streets. The sad reality is that 90 percent of all programs function with level-system based on behavior instead of treatment. They cut off face-to-face communication between child and parent and if you look for a minute at all the community networks, a lot of survivor forum for almost any kind of program are popping up anywhere. Survivor-forums because some children do not return home!!
So take the advice here at the forums. If a single program is so outstanding, please name it so facts can checked.
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I understand the worst thing I can do is INSIST that he stay at school. In reality we are willing to accept this poor excuse of RTS for lack of something better and that includes HOME.
I love my son, he is a great guy and I have every bit of faith and hope that he will get through this period - inspite of mediocre schools, the abuse he experienced in the public schools system, the mental health system, society's bias, etc.
Being at the school and having some structure where he does interact with others is better than him sitting on his ass, doing nothing, obsessing, isolated, and spiraling.
We have seen the other side and will do what ever it takes to keep him from that pit again. I know there are no guarantees regardless of anyone's best efforts.
Thanks for your feedback... and beer at this hour? What is the chaser?
This hour was last night for me. My time zone puts me way the other side of the world.
I see your desire to keep your son out of the pit loud and clear. Are you going to keep him out of the pit the rest of your natural life? At what point are you going to start insisting on your son taking some responsibility for his own condition?
You can leave him in a program that provides "structure" of the most artificial sort. He won't learn anything from it. As I already pointed out he will relapse.
I'm no parent, but I do know programs. I've been involved directly and indirectly with programs since the early 1990's. I saw how this structure, via Rocky Mountain Academy for my brother, didn't work at all. I've seen it again and again and again at Eckerd's Youth Alternatives, Three Springs, and from others here on fornits.
You can try to keep him out of the pit. But really is that your job to be doing so?
Your son is 17 years old.
He isn't a child. As hard as it sounds when is it that you plan to start treating him like a young adult?
Keeping him in the program is treating him as a child. Denying him the opprotunity of learning the hard way or the easy way or any other way.
Again I'm going to ask you what facility your son attends.
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Is there ANY program that is genuinely therapeutic?
Yes, SIBS is 100% guaranteed to fix druggie kids for life.
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The answer is YES you can find a therapeutic boarding school for your son. This is coming from another parent who was able to find such place for my deeply troubled child and she is a graduate and doing wonderfully.
There are too many people on this forum without first hand experience as a parent. Many are still deeply troubled chidden and young adults unable to move on with their life. I would not take their council since it is clouded by their overly strong opinions against any out side the home placement (which sounds unrealistic to keep your son home).
Watch who is responding to you, they are from a place that has no experience with parenting and they have never felt the deep loving obligation we have as a parent to help and facilitate our child's chance at wellness. Being at home, vegetating and getting worse is not the solution as they have all suggested for you to do?
I believe you need professional advice not opinions from a bunch of kids or people who worked at some facility that was abusive. Hire an educational counselor, one who is qualified by their professional academic experience and credentials to understand the educational needs and emotional and psychological needs of your child. There are place out there for him!
There are abusive placements so make sure you are careful in your choice. There are also unstable kids on this site so also make sure you pay attention to who is giving you advice!
Excuse me?
Our judgment is clouded?
This is what the majority of fornits brings to the table. We either were abused by a program. Had a loved one abused by a program, or like me worked in a program.
You bring the one example of your personal experience with a program to the table.
We bring you the results of 30 years of torture, sadism, and deprivation of human rights.
http://http://cafety.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=433&Itemid=35
The sadism started with Synanon
It went to Seed
Then to Straight
Right onto CEDU
From Cedu the entire industry exploded into a growing machine.
You bring your one anecdotal experience. YOU can not speak for your child's time in a program. We bring 30 years of institutionalized rape, torture, and psychological abuses of the worst sort.
To ACT UP:
Again if you want to discuss the specifics of the program your son is being warehoused at then post the name of it.
Other than that this discussion is filled with far to many generalities and contains no real specifics.
I'
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The answer is YES you can find a therapeutic boarding school for your son. This is coming from another parent who was able to find such place for my deeply troubled child and she is a graduate and doing wonderfully.
There are too many people on this forum without first hand experience as a parent. Many are still deeply troubled chidden and young adults unable to move on with their life. I would not take their council since it is clouded by their overly strong opinions against any out side the home placement (which sounds unrealistic to keep your son home).
Watch who is responding to you, they are from a place that has no experience with parenting and they have never felt the deep loving obligation we have as a parent to help and facilitate our child's chance at wellness. Being at home, vegetating and getting worse is not the solution as they have all suggested for you to do?
I believe you need professional advice not opinions from a bunch of kids or people who worked at some facility that was abusive. Hire an educational counselor, one who is qualified by their professional academic experience and credentials to understand the educational needs and emotional and psychological needs of your child. There are place out there for him!
There are abusive placements so make sure you are careful in your choice. There are also unstable kids on this site so also make sure you pay attention to who is giving you advice!
Disregard this rubbish,
Most of the survivors here are successful adults, many with kids of their own. Program supporters always try to label them as still deeply troubled or as people who can't move on. Bullshit!!! Survivors move on everyday they live their life and refuse to go and die in a hole somewhere. Moving on doesn't mean you forget what happened to you or that you don't fight for some justice. They have a right to be angry, depressed, or whatever in regards to their experience. They know more about programs then some ed-con out to make a buck or a parent who believes off the bat that everyone claiming abuse is crazy.
So please drop the "they are all manipulators" song at the door.....
You told her to seek out a professional for advice, ok... But then you suggest an Ed-Con?!? This says it all.......
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Spot on Hanzomon.
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I believe you need professional advice not opinions from a bunch of kids or people who worked at some facility that was abusive. Hire an educational counselor, one who is qualified by their professional academic experience and credentials to understand the educational needs and emotional and psychological needs of your child. There are place out there for him!
I agree you need professional advice -- but from a qualified therapist -- not from a program salesman. Ed Cons have no more academic or professional credentials than used car salesmen when it comes to advising parents on educational matters. And they have even less credentials on matters of mental health care.
You seem to understand that the place where your son is now isn't helping him with his mental health issues. At best, he is getting some amount of education. At best, he is not being abused and is "only" suffering the psychological trauma that comes with any sort of institutionalization and loss of freedom of choice.
Is he in immediate danger of harming himself or others? If so, there are hospitals that will keep patients for short periods of time, usually 30 days or less, to stabilize them before sending them home and to outpatient treatment.
If he is not in immediate danger, why is he living in an institution? Are there no psychologists or psychiatrists in your area who can treat his mental health issues? Wouldn't that be better than "benign negligence?" Are there no other school options (online school, for example) besides the public school that was abusive? If not, then maybe he's not in a position to deal with any sort of school right now. Is there some reason he is not being encouraged or even allowed to grow up, make decisions (yes, even make mistakes) and take on some personal responsibility?
You've stuck him in a sort of limbo, where he's 17 going on 12. The sooner you let him stand on his own two feet and figure things out for himself, the sooner he will start moving toward adulthood.
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The answer is YES you can find a therapeutic boarding school for your son. This is coming from another parent who was able to find such place for my deeply troubled child and she is a graduate and doing wonderfully.
There are too many people on this forum without first hand experience as a parent. Many are still deeply troubled chidden and young adults unable to move on with their life. I would not take their council since it is clouded by their overly strong opinions against any out side the home placement (which sounds unrealistic to keep your son home).
Watch who is responding to you, they are from a place that has no experience with parenting and they have never felt the deep loving obligation we have as a parent to help and facilitate our child's chance at wellness. Being at home, vegetating and getting worse is not the solution as they have all suggested for you to do?
I believe you need professional advice not opinions from a bunch of kids or people who worked at some facility that was abusive. Hire an educational counselor, one who is qualified by their professional academic experience and credentials to understand the educational needs and emotional and psychological needs of your child. There are place out there for him!
There are abusive placements so make sure you are careful in your choice. There are also unstable kids on this site so also make sure you pay attention to who is giving you advice!
Most of the survivors here are successful adults, many with kids of their own. Program supporters always try to label them as still deeply troubled or as people who can't move on. Bullshit!!! Survivors move on everyday they live their life and refuse to go and die in a hole somewhere. Moving on doesn't mean you forget what happened to you or that you don't fight for some justice. They have a right to be angry, depressed, or whatever in regards to their experience. They know more about programs then some ed-con out to make a buck or a parent who believes off the bat that everyone claiming abuse is crazy.
So please drop the "they are all manipulators" song at the door.....
You told her to seek out a professional for advice, ok... But then you suggest an Ed-Con?!? This says it all.......
Yeah. I knew something smelled wrong about that post.....thnx.
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I came here to hear what survivors are saying and I value your openness. I asked for your experience, knowledge and stories and I got them. Your answers have not all been what I wanted to hear, but I asked and you answered. I would not have asked if I did not want to know. For this I thank everyone.
I believe most here are motivated by trying to save others from the hell they experienced - but I believe most people here do not experience any shades of gray, it is all or nothing. It feels as if the opinion here is no matter what my child would be better off at home than in this school. This is wrong and obviously not something many of you will or can accept. I hoped have accepted this one non-negoicable fact and moved on, but it seems not.
(Dew - and to all whom this applies) it is not for us to dismiss anyone's feelings or experiences. We each have our own reality and truth. The love of a mother/ parent is not more valid than the life and experiences of those we love.
As for an Ed Consult - I can not justify giving 3K-5K to someone I do not know, someone whose motives I question (besides making a lot of money), someone I have little or no reason to trust, nor do I they have any meaningful mental health experience. I understand that they visit these places but I believe things are and can be hidden with little notice. Just like when we all went to parent teacher conferences, the teachers never screamed or humiliated our children then.
At this time my son is willing to continue at the school and for that I am grateful. I will not be telling him he can just leave and come home to do nothing. We talked this afternoon about "the plan" and he said he wants to continue (I understand one day at a time) but that when he feels he needs a break from there I should not hassle him about coming home (for a respite). Sigh. I did hear him loud and clear.
"The sooner you let him stand on his own two feet and figure things out for himself, the sooner he will start moving toward adulthood.” But you are not seeing the entire story – there is a major down side and risk to not moving forward! Either you refuse to GET IT or are so poisoned by your own experiences that you can't get it.
What I probably have in common with other parents who are and have been in a similar place is that we are trying to do what ever it takes for our children to survive long enough to make it out of this tumultuous period (of adolescence) and live long enough to be able to move on with their lives.
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No facility name provided Topic is booted out of Facilities.
Have a nice day now yall.
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Okay Act UP, this is getting old. Without names you're really just pissing in the wind.
You're probably assuming that the moment you name the program that we'll instantly find out things that are wrong with it. This is a correct assumption. Every single thing that can be called a program (there are, on the other hand, legitimate medical treatment centers that are non-targets for the majority of Fornits) has been exposed the moment it is mentioned here.
no matter what my child would be better off at home than in this school.
Given that every single time anyone has named a place on Fornits we've exposed it for what it really is, pardon us for working on an assumption that has been validated every single time, much like the Earth continues to rotate to let the Sun rise every morning.
Please prove us wrong. Name the school (if it can be called that) and maybe there really is nothing wrong with it.
But if you choose to wallow in ignorance instead, don't blame us when your kid comes out worse than he started.
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What you ought to do is look into the suicide attempt rate at your son's duckfarm. Might tell you everything you want to know without wasting our time here.
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The sooner you let him stand on his own two feet and figure things out for himself, the sooner he will start moving toward adulthood.” But you are not seeing the entire story – there is a major down side and risk to not moving forward! Either you refuse to GET IT or are so poisoned by your own experiences that you can't get it.
What I probably have in common with other parents who are and have been in a similar place is that we are trying to do what ever it takes for our children to survive long enough to make it out of this tumultuous period (of adolescence) and live long enough to be able to move on with their lives.
The reason I said that is because we DID place our son in a program -- a 7 week wilderness program -- and then refused to continue to play this game. He had lots of experiences there -- some good but mostly bad -- but more importantly WE changed. We said, "look kid, you're almost an adult now. Time to do for yourself." We told him he was responsible for his own recovery, his own therapy, etc., and that we would provide financial support and emotional support if/when he wanted it. We stopped trying to control him and stopped trying to make him into the person we had wanted him to be.
Survive? Yes, he survived a lot of stupid behavior before his program, and even more stupid behavior afterwards. It has not all been pleasant, it has not all been stress-free. It has not been a yellowbrick road to happiness. But he is an adult now, he is moving forward with the life HE chooses and we have a good relationship. He is not free of "demons" and mental health issues, but neither is he an invalid who needs mommy & daddy to make decisions for him or take care of him.
Oh BTW, a lot of the therapy and issues he's had to deal with since his program are a direct result of the program and our 'betrayal' of removing him from our home -- not issues he had before. Like I told my wife when we picked him up in Utah, "he's going to need some therapy after all he's been through here."
I'm very proud of the young man he has turned into. And I know we and he would not be where we are today if we had stuck him in a residential program for any length of time. 7 weeks of hell was plenty. And I'm also glad I saved that boatload of cash that a post-wilderness TBS would've cost -- so he can still go to college. And I can still keep my home, which would've probably gone into foreclosure as a result of the insane costs of the shitpits that wanted to "fix" my kid.
This industry not only destroys teens, it destroys families and homes and a lifetime's worth of scrimping and saving. In the end, the best it can offer is "at least he's still alive." But he would've been alive, and is alive, anyway.
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Talk about unconscious slips. I meant to say that no matter what he is better off at the school than at home.
No facility name provided Topic is booted out of Facilities.
Why? We have been talking about facilities. I just have not named the one he attends.
What I have been asking is "are there any meaningful therapeutic programs and/or schools." I have not asked for information about this school. I came looking to see if there was more out there, if in fact that elusive therapeutic milieu setting did/does exist.
As much as I have (numerous) issues with the school he attends, abuse is not one of them. I don't want to feel bullied into naming the name but I have decided to share it more for other parents who are either looking at it or have a child there. It is Summit Children's Residence and School. I am sure you all know it.
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WeeeeSPLAT!! (http://http://www.isaccorp.org/summit/summit-school.06.19.03.html)
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I have not asked for information about this school
Well, you've gotten it anyway. Really though, why the hell would you come to a place like Fornits and not be curious about the place you sent your kid? I mean Jesus fuck lady, did asking us for details that might not be anywhere else cross your mind at all? Did you ever consider that maybe a Fornits member might have went there? Of course anything we say here is almost certainly not going to be good news, the only thing we have here resembling that is the upcoming GAO and George Miller ownaj.
I came looking to see if there was more out there, if in fact that elusive therapeutic milieu setting did/does exist.
No. No, it doesn't. Why would you think it even could?
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TS Waygookin
Frequent poster
Joined: 01 Mar 2007
Posts: 962
Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 6:09 pm Post subject:
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Dew wrote:
The answer is YES you can find a therapeutic boarding school for your son. This is coming from another parent who was able to find such place for my deeply troubled child and she is a graduate and doing wonderfully.
There are too many people on this forum without first hand experience as a parent. Many are still deeply troubled chidden and young adults unable to move on with their life. I would not take their council since it is clouded by their overly strong opinions against any out side the home placement (which sounds unrealistic to keep your son home).
Watch who is responding to you, they are from a place that has no experience with parenting and they have never felt the deep loving obligation we have as a parent to help and facilitate our child's chance at wellness. Being at home, vegetating and getting worse is not the solution as they have all suggested for you to do?
I believe you need professional advice not opinions from a bunch of kids or people who worked at some facility that was abusive. Hire an educational counselor, one who is qualified by their professional academic experience and credentials to understand the educational needs and emotional and psychological needs of your child. There are place out there for him!
There are abusive placements so make sure you are careful in your choice. There are also unstable kids on this site so also make sure you pay attention to who is giving you advice!
Excuse me?
Our judgment is clouded?
This is what the majority of fornits brings to the table. We either were abused by a program. Had a loved one abused by a program, or like me worked in a program.
You bring the one example of your personal experience with a program to the table.
We bring you the results of 30 years of torture, sadism, and deprivation of human rights.
Guy's really got a sick head. And yes he did abuse kids and admitted to it when he worke din a place called THree Springs. He said he restrained over 200 kids. Now that's really sick, especially since he said he did it when they didn't even need it. I always wondered why ppl welecomed him here.
Here's what he orignially posted on Fornits a couple years ago
His first post on Fornits:
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... ht=#115011 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=115011&highlight=#115011)
TS Waygookin
Disorganized Crime Boss
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 3191
Location: 5 miles due south of hell.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 11:36 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
I was reading over this forum, and I was immediately impressed with the intensity of the posters in general. With a great deal of thought I have decided to post my own experience as a staff member at a Three Springs Facility. I was a counselor, Master Counselor C3, for nearly two years at this particular program. To be honest the more time I have spent away from the program, the more guilt I have felt for what I have seen, and further what I had done.
Let me start with the beginning. I had just completed 2 years at another wilderness facility. It was a good place, physical restraints were kept to a minimum. Verbal de-escalation techniques were strongly encouraged. The camp leadership had spent years encouraging the growth of a strong culture emphasizing alternatives to physical management. We routinely utilized the group process method of huddles to discuss issues, and sometimes did so for many hours of a day. Nonetheless, the camp's mission of character improvement for adjudicated youth worked well, and had results for kids who would have otherwise been thrown in a detention center. [Yet he now claims all programs are bad? All should be shut down?]
After my two years in the swamps, I moved on to Three Springs. From the very moment I made my counselor visit I should have known better than to accept employment at that facility. Everyone of my instincts screamed, "BAD PROGRAM!" In my 24 hour counselor visit I witnessed numerous events, and had a great many concerns. In a program that models itself on the group therapy model that uses a group to facilitate treatment of individual issues, they had huge groups. The groups looked shabby, and dispirited. The campsites appeared to be an apalling mess. The counselors had a far to casual relationship with their residents. Let me delve into the details of each item individually, starting with the size of the groups.
The group therapy model as I experienced it works best when the size of the group is between 6 and 10 residents. Two of the groups on the Three Springs campus had groups of 15 youths. What happens in my experience is that the size of the group makes for lessened experience. For example, the bigger the group, the less attention can be paided to an individual youth's issues. The smaller the group, means a lack of social dynamics to stimulate the youth's group therapy. The explanation I was given by the Supervisor on duty entailed lack of staff. Apparently the facility had just went through a large reduction of staff, and was so bad they had office personell covering some of the groups. This alone should have been a big sign to myself that something was truly wrong with this particular site. Well if you can't guess I didn't catch on, but in fact witnessed a great deal more.
The groups were sloppy, and dispirited. They were poorly dressed in dirty, and torn clothing. They looked depressed, and honestly like a pack of beaten dogs. At first I was certain they had were just tired from working all day. As I spent time with the group I was assigned to for the day a few of them informed me this was the way they looked all the time. I was immediately concerned. How can you expect a group of boys to feel good about themselves if they are dressed like a pack of bums? You simply can not! Kids in programs do not need designer clothing, but they do need clean, well maintained clothes. They need to change their clothes daily. I was told by a counselor that they allowed the kids to decide when to change their clothes.
With a bit of investigation I found it was not uncommon that a few of the residents had gone more than a few days without changing their clothing. In fact, some of them simply did not have the clothing to change into, despite numerous letters written to their family workers to get more clothing from home.
The one thing I know is that if you want to improve the self esteem of anyone its probably a bad idea to let them go a few days wearing dirty nasty clothing. If you want a kid to trust you as a staff member you should probably not just turn a blind eye to his lack of clothing. In the last program I worked with we were frequently told to make darn good and sure that clothing items were not an issue. We had an entire section of the camp warehouse full of pants, shirts, and coats for kids who did not have enough clothing. Three Springs unlike the last program is a for profit enterprise. If a kid did not have clothes, he had to get them from home, and sometimes that took months.
Not only did these kids look like a pack of vagrants they certainly appeared to feel like them as well. They looked shabby, they were extremely negative about the program, and voiced constant statements about the depth of their own feelings of worthlessness. This really worried me. A good counselor would have found activities to help these kids feel better. A good counselor would have found building projects to not only build something useful, but to build a sense of ownership, and pride in a group of kids who hated everything around themselves. Ok I do realize that kids, and adults are not going to be fans of programs, but I do know from personal experience the kids will begin to feel ownership over their own situation [Hmmmmm ?. Wonder what he means by from ?personal? experience?]. If that sense of ownership is inherently negative, what good is the program doing them? NOT a damn thing.
Their campsites were for the most part an appalling pig pens. I nearly refused to sleep in the cabin due to the stench. Apparently cleaning of campsites was to time consuming, and something they only did when they needed. Oh god help me I was so disgusted. Its bad enough that they looked like bums, now the counselors did not seem to care that they lived in trash pits? What positive statement was being sent to these children? Nothing that I could tell. The only thing they appeared to be learning was, "Look like a bum feel like a bum, then go to your campsite, and live like a bum." The real sad part was most of the kids seemed like pretty descent sorts. Most of them had substance abuse, and self esteem problems. For the most part they were a fun loving bunch of guys. The kind of kids who really could have benifited from a work hard, play hard mentality. They were lazy, but what the heck thats something you can unlearn. I frankly had a hard time understand why half of them were even in a program.
Not only did I have a hard time understanding why they were in a program, I somehow convinced myself I could make a difference with my experience. Stupid. I should have said no and ran away screaming. None the less I reported to work, and underwent my 100 or so hours of orientation training. None of which was of any use to me. I had already received 4 times that amount of training at my previous program. A program that prided itself in simplicity of the group process, rather than what I would learn would be the hell of individual consquences. I spent most of my orientation trying to remain in the full awake posture. Somehow I graduated orientation, and was promptly asked to work with the young kids.
Off I toddled to the young kid's group. I really liked those kids they were a bunch of hell raisers of the first order. Never a dull moment for that matter. However, lets discuss not only the failings of the program, but MY FAILINGS as a counselor. These were a group of young children ages 10 to 14. The previous counselor's had not done a good job managing their treatment in a very useful manner. I went into their trunk room, and found rat crap in their foot lockers, and under them as well. They had several bed wetters who frequently wet their beds, and nothing was really done about it.
The behaviors of the group was of course of the chain. In retrospect I should not find anything about what I went through very amusing, but its hard not to laugh. I had to quell riots on a regular basis. I was attacked by 10 year olds. This was pretty interesting considering I am 6 foot tall, weighing nearly 280 pounds, and an avid weight lifter. The kids frequently went beserk over the smallest issue.
None of this was a surprise to me, as I already knew that any new counselor faces resistance from the group. Nothing new, but what did shock me was the total sense of indifference from the administration. Worse was my on attitude. I came from a facility that worked hard to keep physical restraints from being a daily part of our lives. We all accepted that at some point it very well may happen. However, we all did our part to make sure they didn't happen needlessly.
At Three Springs I was involved in almost 200 full on physical restraints. No one seemed to be alarmed with this number, and seemed to accept it as part of business with my group. In the end I instituted several programs to reduce restraints, but received little support from the administration. Lets delve into my responsibilities as a counselor a bit more.
I let myself be seduced into a sick culture. I let my experience of one good program fall to the wayside, and became a part of the sick Three Springs Machine.
I regularly used intimidation to force compliance.
I regularly used physical holds when they were not needed.
I rarely used proper proceedures when conducting these physical holds.
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[Yet he now claims all programs are bad? All should be shut down?]
Being on Fornits and exposed to the other side of the reality changed his mind.
This is the natural progression of things.
Why are you so surprised that child abusers can turn?
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I say we run him off the forum!
:roll:
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I meant to say that no matter what he is better off at the school than at home.
What is so bad at home that can't be changed? Is it him or is it you? How do you know it can't be changed? When was the last time you tried?
What I have been asking is "are there any meaningful therapeutic programs and/or schools." I have not asked for information about this school. I came looking to see if there was more out there, if in fact that elusive therapeutic milieu setting did/does exist.
There are meaningful residential treatment centers, and some of them have been discussed on Fornits (see Julie). But more importantly, there is meaningful outpatient treatment all over the country. If not in your community, then in the nearest big city.
If you're looking for real therapy, you haven't looked hard enough or your son wouldn't be where he is. If you're looking for him to get a real education, the same is true. So what is it you think you're paying for? What do you think he's getting out of it?
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Is it him or is it you? How do you know it can't be changed?
What can not be changed? What do you mean? Have you read the thread?
When was the last time you tried?
Come on! Do you think all I am trying to do is waste my time? You haven't heard me at all. You don't hear anything you don't want to hear because you believe you have all the answers and anyone who differs is wrong.
You sure is make a lot of judgments and are quite judge-mental. Too many assumptions going on. You don't know anything about what we have done or who we are.
So what is it you think you're paying for? What do you think he's getting out of it?
HELLO.... have you been paying attention at all?
This is past getting useless, good night.
PS - I wish all the "Guests" would at least identify themselves with a number or letter or different spelling. I have no idea who is writing what.
Why haven't you registered?
BTW Is anyone going to share something about the school?
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TSW- She has provided the name of the school her son goes to.. therefore we can discuss the facility. Is it possible to return it to the original forum? .
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As much as I have (numerous) issues with the school he attends, abuse is not one of them. I don't want to feel bullied into naming the name but I have decided to share it more for other parents who are either looking at it or have a child there. It is Summit Children's Residence and School. I am sure you all know it.
Do to the bold part I'd more than likely delete the entire topic if it ever shows up in my forum again.
I don't allow referrals in my forum ever.
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Is it him or is it you? How do you know it can't be changed?
What can not be changed? What do you mean? Have you read the thread?
When was the last time you tried?
Come on! Do you think all I am trying to do is waste my time? You haven't heard me at all. You don't hear anything you don't want to hear because you believe you have all the answers and anyone who differs is wrong.
You sure is make a lot of judgments and are quite judge-mental. Too many assumptions going on. You don't know anything about what we have done or who we are.
So what is it you think you're paying for? What do you think he's getting out of it?
HELLO.... have you been paying attention at all?
This is past getting useless, good night.
PS - I wish all the "Guests" would at least identify themselves with a number or letter or different spelling. I have no idea who is writing what.
Why haven't you registered?
BTW Is anyone going to share something about the school?
I get it. He is ok with staying at the school, he's difficult to live with and doesn't want to cooperate with the family, he's BPD, ODD, ADD, PD and maybe a few other D's. He doesn't want to show any respect or accountability to anyone or anything. He's tried to kill himself 2 or 3 times but perhaps not really been serious, otherwise he'd already be dead.
What makes you think he's so different from thousands of other kids, or so different from my kid? What makes you think your experience is so unique that you can't learn something from others?
I don't pretend to have all the answers, but I also know bullshit when I see it. By your own words, what you're doing now isn't really helping him, it's just a place to live that's not home. I'm just asking is that because he refuses to try living at home again, or because you prefer not to have that extra chaos and turmoil that might come from that?
If he truly prefers being at that program, is it simply because he doesn't have to live at home? If so, there are better and cheaper places to live. Even places where he could get real therapy.
Lighten up a little. I'm just trying to offer some opinions based on my experience with my own kid and with programs. If you don't like what I have to say, just ignore me. Trust me, you won't hurt my feelings :)
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Teen gets jail in death at Summit School
By STEVE LIEBERMAN
THE JOURNAL NEWS
June 19, 2003
A 17-year-old boy suffering from a mental illness was sentenced yesterday to between five and 15 years in prison for pushing a teenager out a second-story window to his death at an Upper Nyack school.
Ian Sinovoi of Manhattan must serve at least five years in prison for second-degree manslaughter in the death of Jeremy Gaulin of Dobbs Ferry. They had just become roommates when Sinovoi pushed Gaulin out the window Oct. 3 at the Summit Children's Residence and School.
Gaulin's mother, Judy Parton, spoke tearfully about her son before County Court Judge William Kelly sentenced Sinovoi.
Parton, who works with developmentally disabled children, said she wanted Sinovoi to serve 15 years.
Parton, her hands shaking as she read her statement, said her son's death had devastated his family, including his four siblings, father, stepfather, grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins. More than 10 family members attended yesterday's sentencing.
She spoke of little things missing in their life without her eldest son, such as buying one less ticket for a family outing to the movies. She said she would never see her son graduate from college or get married or see his wish come true to get a driver's license. He would have turned 16 on June 27.
"The most emotionally upsetting was Mother's Day," Parton told Kelly. "While other mothers were getting Mother's Day cards and flowers from their children, I brought Jeremy flowers for his grave. I didn't go to any fancy brunches. I spent time at the cemetery with my son, Jeremy."
Sinovoi, a husky teenager with a slight beard, stood with hands chained behind him, wearing a blue county jail jumpsuit. When it came time for him to speak before sentencing, Sinovoi told Kelly: "I wrote something. I really can't say it right now." Assistant Public Defender Claire Cincotta then told Kelly about Sinovoi's medical history, noting the judge had been given 15 years' worth of psychiatric and education reports on Sinovoi. She asked that Sinovoi be placed in a special jail unit so he could receive treatment, a request Kelly said he would recommend to the state Department of Correctional Services.
The reports outlined that Sinovoi suffered primarily from Asperger's syndrome, a form of autism, and had a penchant for order and details. He also suffered from an intermittent explosive disorder when his lifestyle was disturbed.
Sinovoi's mental illness reduced his capacity to plan, control or appreciate the criminality of his actions when he pushed Gaulin out the window, Cincotta said. Gaulin suffered from attention deficit disorder, which tends to include an inability to focus and to keep to a routine.
Sinovoi's mental illness led prosecutor Louis Valvo to reduce the criminal charge from second-degree murder to manslaughter. The plea agreement came after psychiatrists for Sinovoi and the prosecution concluded the teen did not mean to cause Gaulin's death, but had acted with reckless disregard for his life.
Cincotta, speaking after the sentencing, said Gaulin's mother was "very merciful and understanding" of Sinovoi.
"Ian's parents feel terrible about what he did and their concerns go out to Jeremy's family," Cincotta said. "Both families lost a child, one to death and other to prison. It is a sad case."
Gaulin's grandmother, Theresa Gaulin, said she wanted Sinovoi to serve 15 years in prison.
"I don't think five years is enough," she said, crying outside the courtroom.
Kelly said the case was unusual because of Sinovoi's mental illness, but he agreed to the five- to 15-year prison sentence. He called Gaulin's death "barbaric," but noted psychiatrists found that Sinovoi could not control his violent impulses.
Kelly said the state Parole Board should take Sinovoi's condition into account before considering an early release from prison in five years, for fear such an incident might happen again.
Parton, Gaulin's mother, also said she wanted Sinovoi to get treatment for his mental illness while in prison, but she could not forgive him.
"Jeremy was given a death penalty for nothing," she said in court. "I cannot forgive Ian for what he did at this time, but I pray that my family and his find some peace in our lives. Someday I may be able to forgive Ian."
Yeah your son is safe alright. [/b]
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Have we been trolled here? The OP is starting to sound pretty fake...
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I do wonder.
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Why would experts put a kid with control issues in the same room as a kid with add. What on earth did they think would happen
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TS W - NO way am I referring any parent or anyone else to this school. I was duped. I felt desperate at the time and compromised on this placement because he could come home, was allowed a phone, was sort of transparent, seems safe, etc. Some things they blatantly lied to us about, other things they just did not say. (You have to know the questions to ask - or you know nothing.)
I would not refer anyone there but give them the hindsight we have on this "program"! ASK questions, ask everything, who is with your child, what is their training, what background checks have been done, how is stealing and fighting dealt with, how often they get therapy and when does it occur, do they honor the 12 month IEP, who are the teachers, what are their creditials for working with this population, do they have the staff resume available for parents to view, who is on the board, are members of the board a parent of a child in attendance, AND who in their right mind would have roomed Ian and Jeremy together, do they feel shame or guilt!
70 PR - you got it. We all have to do what we fundamentally believe to be the best for our child.
As for whether one really intends on committing suicide or not - unfortunately this does not determine if they succeed or not. Our fear then was he could make a horrible miscalculation or something and achieve it the next time.... 3 strikes.
He isn't any different than most kids. I know there is plenty that I can learn from all of you, that is why I am here.
He does not prefer living at the school by any means! He is accepting the compromise. My fear is what would be if he were home fulltime. I have not found the support and services in our community or near by and this void scares me. I am just buying time.
there are better and cheaper places to live. Even places where he could get real therapy.
This is what I want to know. I really am open to other solutions. I am asking "what is better". I can accept his being home IF there was a meaningful therapeutic program for him to go to. Please tell me names, if you are not allowed to post it, then PM me.... I will do my research but I just need the direction. When I did start looking for outpatient services either he was too young, they served largely a substance abuse population, or the waiting list was 4 months at a minimum. The latter program was more than a hour by car - which really is not local.
Lighten up a little.
Sigh* :oops: you're right -
Teen gets jail in death at Summit School
I would love to talk about this ongoing tragedy and what if anything can be done.
This is NOT! an example of their benign negligence. I think often of this case and wonder who defended Ian, and if his mother had the where-with-all and means to sue the school for criminal neglect? I know that this child was the scapegoat. I wonder where he is now, what about his life, and the school's horrible error in judgment. I hate to think he is still sitting in a jail, but he probably is.
Have we been trolled here? The OP is starting to sound pretty fake...
What does "trolled" and "OP" mean? I think not.... Do you think I am an imposture?
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Is there a way to tell which "Guest" is writing?
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SWAG principle.
Scientific Wild Assed Guess
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Is there a way to tell which "Guest" is writing?
Not in Troubled Teen forum, which is exactly why TSW moved it here. :rofl:
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There can be 10 different "guest" writers and there is no way to distinguish who is writing what? I don't mean to disclose identities just to have some identifier to follow one person's thread. Just an idea.
And what does troll mean?
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Fishing for a reaction, or trolling for an spaz to raise to your bait.
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A troll poses as something or someone they're not, usually fishing for some reaction...
Almost like a prank call, but on the internet...hope this helps.
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"TS W - NO way am I referring any parent or anyone else to this school. I was duped. I felt desperate at the time and compromised on this placement"
Act- Are you still considering Wilderness "Therapy" Camp as another option for your child? Have you done any research on the risks and theraputic value of WTC's? Please look up the Lewis and Harvey nightmares with WTC.
What is keeping you from having your mentally ill son at home? I see you have a laundry list of issues regarding the school. What keeps you from removing him and placing him in therapy and working with him at home? Is he violent? Are you concerned about others in the home? I am having trouble understanding why he is still in the facility.
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TS W - why would I be a "troll" or fishing, or making a prank when all I asked was how to know which "guest" is responding and what have they written before. That really was my motivation.
Nilla - We are not considering a wilderness program. One thing I have gotten from this board is the risk out weighs the minuscule potential for therapeutic benefits. We have talked about his attending a 1 or 2 week camp like adventure - rafting, biking, physical activity w/o the "therapy" or therapists.... just kids being kids.
Yes I do have a laundry list on this place so why is he still there - at the time we made this decision it was too risky to leave him home alone. He is still at this school because he has benefited from the structure they offer. He also has a community where he does interact with others. This has been a good thing.
I have to wonder why the Dept of Ed would pay this school's rate. I believe there are better schools, that happen to cost less but the DoE will not fund it because it is out of state. One school I thought had potential is Chamberlain in Mass? I know nothing about them other than what is on their website. Just for reference, I would like to know if anyone can share info on this place.
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Perhaps I can shed some light on this situation.
It was funny when our poster ACTUp was giving the rundown on the school that her son goes to, because the first school that immediately came to mind was Summit. Benign neglect might be the best term for the program/school.
One of the board members of Youth ACT/CAFETY is a resident of Summit (she also happens to be a former resident of Ivy Ridge) and one is a former resident of Summit, who was also a resident of several other programs. My girlfriend also is a recent graduate of Summit so I really know the ins and outs of what goes on there. It should also be noted that as a social worker I have been to Summit to meet with different social workers there, and I have entered their campus anounced and unanounced.
In a nutshell, Summit is the least restrictive RTC I have ever known or heard of. It runs somewhere between a cross of high school and fraternity row. If anything there isn't enough supervision of the kids who go there. It is probably the model of what a residential program should look like. However, it is not without it's own problems, but those problems are what you would expect when you put a bunch of kids together who have emotional or behavioral challenges and they live there.
Summit is not a program in the sense that it seems like most of the kids who are there are there voluntarily. My gf stayed until she was 20. And many of the rules and restrictions seem to be age appropriate (cell phone usage until 11:00 P.M. for instance). Is it therapeutic? Maybe. At the very least it is a safe place for teenagers to stay through particularly turbulent times in their adolescence. There is one particular social worker there who my gf had an excellent experience with (she also allowed for the referral to a radical mental health support group). And at least some of the staff appear to be supportive.
But to address the posters concerns, Summit is a bubble, and without the proper connections being made to the community, problems could occur on discharge easily. I would strongly advise you not to send him anywhere else but home, and I would also give thanks for the fact that your son did go to Summit and not some other RTC in New York State, because there is not a single one (state paid for like Hawthorne, Madonna Heights, Astor, Children's Village; state run like Tryon or East Lansing; or private like Family Foundation or Ivy Ridge) that I would trust with any of the kids I work with.
Note that this is not an endorsement of Summit, just that they at least have some of the right ideas when it comes to running an RTC.
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May I also ask what area of New York State that you live in? Because depending on the area, will obviously determine what services you'll be able to find. Have you tried Waiver, Intensive Case Management, Family-Based Treatment (although given his age, he might have already aged out)
Besides being a youth advocate, I also work as a care coordinator, my specialty is finding services for families so they can prevent residential treatment. Shoot me an email sometime: [email protected]
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details that might not be anywhere else
The details
And this, ma'am, is why I said that.
Actually, unscheduled short-distance non-parachute skydiving aside, I'm going to lay off Summit. They appear to be trying their damnedest to not be evil, and they don't appear to have the same control-freak mentality common to things discussed on Fornits.
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I'm curious. You say you were duped, and/or misled. How so? Was it more or less a case of misleading advertising, or were there flat out lies? Would you be willing to provide a few examples so I can get an idea of what they were lying about, and perhaps leading to the more important question of : Why?
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At times I think my son's social worker is good, but I could not swear on it. I have asked for services, information and referrals but she never has anything tangible to offer.
I wish she would make the "referral to a radical mental health support group." Did your gf attend the group while in school? or was it after she left?
Summit is not evil not compared to what many of you have experienced. But there are things they do and don't do that are irresponsible, questionable, and even shameful at times. But they are not evil... bad things just happen to innocent people sometimes.
Back to something brought up before - Ian who is serving prison time (5-15 years) for pushing his roommate out the window - Was the fact that Summit roomed 2 boys who had no right being roomed together evil? or just criminal? What was Summit's accountability in this? Does anyone know if Ian is still in prison?
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Besides being a youth advocate, I also work as a care coordinator, my specialty is finding services for families so they can prevent residential treatment. Shoot me an email sometime: [email protected]
Ya know... This is going to seem like a real slap across the face, Brian, but why the hell should anybody trust you? Is it becuase you have "been there"? Like Kevin August? come on. The wisest thing for parents to do in this industry is to trust nobody and run like hell when somebody offers services... Any kind of services. Your review of Summit, quite frankly, sounds like a "well.. this place isn't really that bad.. maybe it's one of the good ones.. in as much as a program can be good". Slippery slope... It's your choice whether or not to step on it, but beware of where it can lead. You are human, and power does corrupt. In any case, saying "trust me, but nobody else", is what everybody seems to be saying nowadays.
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At times I think my son's social worker is good, but I could not swear on it. I have asked for services, information and referrals but she never has anything tangible to offer.
I wish she would make the "referral to a radical mental health support group." Did your gf attend the group while in school? or was it after she left?
Summit is not evil not compared to what many of you have experienced. But there are things they do and don't do that are irresponsible, questionable, and even shameful at times. But they are not evil... bad things just happen to innocent people sometimes.
Back to something brought up before - Ian who is serving prison time (5-15 years) for pushing his roommate out the window - Was the fact that Summit roomed 2 boys who had no right being roomed together evil? or just criminal? What was Summit's accountability in this? Does anyone know if Ian is still in prison?
A lessor evil is no less acceptable than a greater evil.
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Is there ANY program that is genuinely therapeutic?
None that you can afford.
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Is there ANY program that is genuinely therapeutic?
None that you can afford.
Money has little to do with it. A few things all programs have in common:
- Expensive as hell, even more than real therapy or real school
- Unqualified/underqualified staff who get paid very little relative to an inmate's monthly "tuition"
- Insurance companies pay very little if any. School districts are a different story, since they have been hamstrung by IEP regulations and programs are very slick at selling their abilities to "service" the difficult students that the public schools can't handle.
Many more bullets should be added to the list, but the point is that cost has little to do with quality in these shitpits. They can charge "whatever" and they will find suckers to pay it. It is pretty obvious that the reason WWASPS opened its overseas programs in Mexico, Jamaica, Western Samoa, Costa Rica and Czech Republic was a marketing-driven opportunity to offer more affordable programs to middle-class parents. They clearly marketed those programs that way, to that audience. The idea being to make more money on volume, rather than catering just to upper middle class parents who can afford to pay "whatever."
The fact that enforcement in some of those countries allowed them to get away with uspeakable abuse -- for awhile -- was just icing on the cake. But they found out the hard way that some 3rd world countries can have even higher standards, ethics and concern for children's rights than the good 'ol USA.
Sadly, even after WWASPS was shut down in all of those countries except Jamaica, they have found a way to re-open in every single case -- just by not using the WWASPS affiliation.
"A kinder, gentler machine gun hand" seems to be the new mantra. That, and much slicker, more devious deception of potential parent-customers.
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Effectiveness of 12 steppery:
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html)
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I apologize, I realize how much my post sounded like that of an ed-con even when I posted it, I thought that my direction toward non-residential services might cover me.
Do not trust me, do not trust anyone, use your own sound judgement. In my humble opinion, as has been said here, Summit is a perfect example of how even when providers seem to be well intentioned, residential treatment is a questionable proposition. Wish I could write more, but I have a train to catch.
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Psy - I am glad you asked. I would love to share one of my stories about how Summit misleads and under serves. As far as I know they have not lied. Their mentality is more the "don't tell if they don't ask" approach to things.
Without any doubt this example will be the give away of my identify to any admin at Summit. I am not afraid of the boggie men, I am not afraid...
This is about not getting what is contracted for and being mislead to believe services will be/are being rendered. We were told that Summit ran numerous therapy groups (which is not true). This was a major selling point for my son's psychopharm in his encouraging us to accepting this placement. Supplying group therapy is included in his (12month a year) IEP.
When I asked when he will join a group there was one excuse after another. Finally 4 months later, only because I kept asking did they finally tell me that they might not have an appropriate group for him, as they only had 2 groups, one focused on cutting and the other on substance abuse (or was it adoption?).
I was very clear that they needed to create a group that would be appropriate for him. (I was not just talking about my child, but most if not all their clients could benefit from this experience. And to create a truly therapeutic milieu you can not just have 1% of your population doing the work.) It seemed obvious to us that there was/is an endless choice of appropriate themes for Summit to choose from, issues of adolescence to anger management to developing coping strategies to peer relationships, etc.
It took 5 months from when he started at the school to creating a group that he could join. With all the choices to choose from they brought in a national program called "SADD" this is not bad in and of itself but it is not group therapy. I let it go, hoping it was a step in the right direction. Then SADD's focus was directed towards a non-smoking campaign. This is a great thing to do but not as part of a therapeutic group - in addition to setting these kids up to being targeted by other students not in SADD and who smoke. Why did Summit choose this topic? It seems that the state cracked down on Summit for allowing underage students to smoke during school hours. Summit used the kids in SADD to do their work. Looking for any good points I understood that the social workers could use the time to work on group dynamics, so I let it go.
Then one day my son said something about his being late to a class because of SADD. I very cautiously asked some questions only to find out that SADD's meeting time was changed from after school to during school. I was so upset by this - as if there was too much for the students to do after school so they moved it? I still don't know why this move was really done. What made this even more frustrating was that the class my son was missing is the class he has a LD issue in.
They justified the time change and his missing some of the class because it was only for 15-20 minutes. They did not realized what they were saying but how can 15-20 minutes for group therapy mean anything! They had no intention to make this group meaningful, to work on issues that are core to helping these adolescents/young adults develop any necessary and useful tools. Time is so precious and they are so irresponsible by throwing it away!
I remember they said one reason for changing the meeting from after school to during school was because they have day students too and this way they can participate. Well the day student population is at most 1/5 of the school. I think this should be an after school activity and school should run at least until 4 instead of 2:30.
Another point on therapy - no one ever offered this information but most if not all the individual sessions with the social workers are during class time.
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Do not trust 12 steppery when it is part of a program, a rehab or whatever. Some people have found friends there, when going on a voluntary basis as part of living their normal lives. A very tiny percentage have even gotten sober, if that was a goal they strongly believed in. Others have found good drinking buddies there, which ain't all bad either.
Just don't let yourself get addicted to meetings. The 'cure' really can be worse than the 'disease.'
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TS W -
A lessor evil is no less acceptable than a greater evil.
My point exactly!
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Program and Therapy are diametrically opposed.
Seriously.
Programs are about stupid labels, non-existent dx and non-existent criteria for anything wrong, non-existent treatment, and non-existent rights being protected.
All programs do is in so many words say the problem is ultimately the child not being submissive and obedient enough and making them be that way, go through a level system, and the whole time disclose their innermost, most personal and embarrassing shit/baggage/you name it to the program.
Whereas, actual therapy isn't based on abduction, captivity, isolation, obedience, and everything else I listed above.
So, the crux of it all is...
Sorry, you have to be a mom. Yeah, its harsh, but its the honest to god truth.
Can't handle it? It would probably be better for your child if you abandoned him than sent him to a program if you can't take the heat.
I bet that pissed you off too.
But, hey, its the truth! Offer actual therapy, try to support instead of punish and be a distant authoritarian, and realize your child is another person, not an extension of yourself or a pet or an object you own.
Also, I'm not implying anything by what I say, but as many parents have come in as there are... over so much time, and most of them were looking for a quick answer, attention for themselves, or some way to justify and rationalize program placement, well, you eventually get sick of the exact same thing over and over and over again.
The only answer, in short, is YOU HAVE TO BE A PARENT.
Period.
And I stand by that.
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Some people don't see Summit as a "program" in the way you are speaking of. But for some people a program by any other name is still a program.
It is not accurate to say
ultimately the child not being submissive and obedient enough and making them be that way, go through a level system, and the whole time disclose their innermost, most personal and embarrassing shit/baggage/you name it to the program.
There is no level system there. A student comes in with all their privileges (cellphone, computers, TV, home visits, trips, movie night) and it is up to them whether they keep them or lose them. They are not requiring or seeking submission from the student.
Can't handle it? It would probably be better for your child if you abandoned him than sent him to a program if you can't take the heat.
In my opinion that is a ridiculous statement. But no problem, I've heard worse.
most of them were looking for a quick answer, attention for themselves, or some way to justify and rationalize program placement
Maybe, but not so here. I know there are no quick answers, although I wouldn't mind a magic pill. I am not looking for your agreement nor your submission. I came here seeking information, I heard it, I got it. I have remained so I could explain my choices and give some info on the "summit experience".
The long and short of it all.... is I love being his mom. I would never throw him away or wish for a "different" child/teacher. He is un-freaken-believable! And he makes the best damn brownies ever!
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I didn't read the thread and I'm not going to.
What I said a program is, is what a program is. If summit doesn't hold them captive, manipulate them, isolate them from the world, etc, then they aren't a program.
Regarding the other two things:
It IS better for a kid to be abandoned than to be thrown into a program. Why not ask people who were, or people who ran out of programs, or people who were 'exit planned'?
I'm glad you've accepted there is no quick answer for SOMEONE ELSES PROBLEMS, but 99% of everyone else who is a parent seems unable to understand that.
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ActUp, you seem to be reinforcing the idea that the school portion of the program is bullshit and the therapy portion is also bullshit. So why is your son still there, instead of at home with the people who know and understand him best?
If there is no suitable therapist he can see locally as an outpatient, is there no way you can send him to NYC or some other nearby big city for treatment?
I understand the school is paying for this nonsense as an IEP, so it doesn't affect your family finances one way or another. I don't mean that disrespectfully, but if it were coming out of your pocket, would you have a different attitude? I know that in our son's case, we were stressing about the fact that we were potentially spending his college money -- or "get a life money" -- on a questionable "therapeutic" program that was untested, unproven, un-everything. It was just quackery with slick marketing. He's a smart kid and he deserved better than the bullshit that passes for 'education' in a TBS. For that matter, he deserved better than the bullshit that passes for education in the public schools. He deserved better than to starve in the wilderness that we stupidly thrust him into.
We decided not to take the 'next step,' to TBS -- we brought him home and sought local therapy (for the umpteenth time, after many failed attempts) and decided to let him sink or swim on his own. Not quite true -- we sort of bailed him out of a few jams that could've been serious shit for him, but we looked the other way and said "this is the last time dude." But he mostly got it -- that he was almost an adult (and is now and has been for quite awhile) and that he needed to take responsibility for his own life.
He has been to some very expensive therapy since his program experience, but only on his own terms -- he goes if he wants, doesn't if he doesn't. We've told him hey if you don't like this person, don't go -- find someone else, or no one at all if that's what you think is best. Take psychiatric meds or not -- it's your choice. If you think they help, great. If not, that's great too. We have told him we will offer him some financial support and TONS of emotional support in whatever he wants to do -- get a job, go to college, whatever -- and the biggest struggle has been whether he wants to do anything at all.
He has often thought that life is not worth living and that there's not point to all of this b.s. That -- depression and some half-assed suicide attempts -- has been the biggest challenge. Figuring out that some things -- even if it's sex, drugs and rock & roll -- are better than death. Surprise, surprise, he is starting to figure out that there's more to life than death, and even more than sex, drugs & rock & roll -- that there's something more that's worth doing with oneself, even if sex, drugs & rock & roll seems pretty cool in and of itself. He is starting to realize that just maybe he can do something to influence his friends, society and the world at large, for the better -- and that 'for the better' is better than 'for the worse.'
I'm sure my wife would cringe, but I tell him things like "it helps to get laid once in awhile," and he sheepishly says things like "duh, don't you think I know that?"
He's not out of the woods, but he is well on his way. Your kid can be too. I'm not saying "laissez faire," anything goes. More like, back off and see what inspires him, see what he really likes in this world. See if you can't just sit back and let him figure all that out for himself, with your support -- but without your intervention.
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Not letting teenagers get out and do their own thing fucks them up.
You want proof?
I got AIM, YIM, and MSN. Contact me.
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Why can't he attend public school? (You mentioned he would be home all day by himself).
What is it about the school that makes you think they can do a better job than you can?
You would be able to oversee the therapies you want him to receive.
What is it about his behavior that makes it impossible for him to live at home?
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It IS better for a kid to be abandoned than to be thrown into a program. Why not ask people who were, or people who ran out of programs, or people who were 'exit planned'?
:wave:
Yep, definitely. Now even years after with a child of my own.... yep, woulda been a hell of a lot better off on my own. I knew that then, that's why they put me there. I would be a much better person today - and more useful to society - had my mother abandoned me when I was 13.
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Some people don't see Summit as a "program" in the way you are speaking of. But for some people a program by any other name is still a program.
Well. It seems relatively benign as far as abuse goes, however... It's difficult to say for sure without knowing more. And even if I did know more, I wasn't there, and would have to interview a few people to make a judgment on that and in no case would I recommend the place, regardless.. Why? in the current state of this industry, it would set a dangerous president. Also programs changed as they "evolve"... Concentrated power... I've seen it happen before.
It is not accurate to say
ultimately the child not being submissive and obedient enough and making them be that way, go through a level system, and the whole time disclose their innermost, most personal and embarrassing shit/baggage/you name it to the program.
There is no level system there. A student comes in with all their privileges (cellphone, computers, TV, home visits, trips, movie night) and it is up to them whether they keep them or lose them. They are not requiring or seeking submission from the student.
In all fairness, a lot of programs say that, but end up making up reasons to take away those "privileges" almost immediately (if not immediately) after arrival. The program I went to claimed to let us have a lot of stuff (after the first month)... Well. A month went buy, and when I asked for what they claimed they would give me, they told me the rules had changed. They told my parents i had lost my "privileges" to those things. Six months later, they were still telling new "students" the same exact spiel about what they were allowed in program (the rules never really changed, in case it isn't obvious). I made it a point of asking them what they were told on the "tour". In my opinion, communication with the outside world, especially with parents, is a right, and not a privilege. Has your son had any of his "privileges" taken away? Have you compared notes with him on what the reasons were (probably best to ask him that after program).
Can't handle it? It would probably be better for your child if you abandoned him than sent him to a program if you can't take the heat.
In my opinion that is a ridiculous statement. But no problem, I've heard worse.
most of them were looking for a quick answer, attention for themselves, or some way to justify and rationalize program placement
Maybe, but not so here. I know there are no quick answers, although I wouldn't mind a magic pill. I am not looking for your agreement nor your submission. I came here seeking information, I heard it, I got it. I have remained so I could explain my choices and give some info on the "summit experience".
The long and short of it all.... is I love being his mom. I would never throw him away or wish for a "different" child/teacher. He is un-freaken-believable! And he makes the best damn brownies ever!
Well. That's great... but why is he still at the Summit. It seems like you have a lot of doubts regarding the program, so why don't you see if you can work out a solution at home. As much as you think a program might be helpful to him, it seems from what you say that you get along with him fine. If nothing else, a parent's love is often more therapeutic than anything therapy could ever offer.
Even if this program isn't abusive, it seems as if it does border on fraudulent. They misrepresented what they offered to get your money, and your example with the SADD thing tells me that they care more about the bottom line than the kids they claim to help. Don't you think you could do a better job of caring for / providing support for him if he was at home.
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Rachael, I am really sorry that you are in so much pain. Have you found any means to address your pain and start to heal?
Nilla, I truly believe that if my son were home he would do nothing, not attend school, not interact with others, he would isolate himself, there would be little or no consistent sleep, he would lose the stability he has gained.
What is it about the school that makes you think they can do a better job than you can?
Nothing, absolutely nothing other than he is with other people instead of exclusively with mommy and daddy, that alone is worth accepting their
mediocrity.
Not letting teenagers get out and do their own thing fucks them up.
You are abso-fucken-lutely correct! That along with many other things do too.
I wish he would get out, I wish he had friends, I wish he was motived and involved... But I step back and let him be.... Although it is rare, when he wants to interact with others, go out, socialize - he does.
Psy & Gabba - I am too tired to try to respond to your posts tonight.
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Here Kitty-Kitty-kitty. :rofl:
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Is there any theraputic program that is genuine?
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Yes. The one's who genuinely want to make money.
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What do you mean? These are the good ones?
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What do you mean? These are the good ones?
There are no good ones. Therapy cannot be coerced or forced. Period, end of story.
Parents need to do their fucking jobs and quit expecting the gubment to pick up the slack.
This is the kind of shit that scares the hell out of me.
http://www.character.org/atf/cf/%7B77B3 ... Report.pdf (http://www.character.org/atf/cf/%7B77B36AC3-5057-4795-8A8F-9B2FCB86F3EB%7D/CEP_Tri_Research_Report.pdf)
Character Education: What Is It, How Does it Work, and How Effective is it?
For Policy Makers :o Based on Emerging Research
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Yes. The one's who genuinely want to make money.
You got it...ones like SIB$.
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People think it's possible, and will continue trying at the expense of other human beings. It's up to them, all they have to do is STOP. But they don';t
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This young man has been at Summit for months. This mother admits he is receivng no meaningful, if any therapy. It's almost like she has an almost-18-year-old in some type of day care. She asked for advice, and has received it over and over: Bring this kid home, pay a real therapist and do her job as a PARENT. She refuses to listen.
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This young man has been at Summit for months. This mother admits he is receivng no meaningful, if any therapy. It's almost like she has an almost-18-year-old in some type of day care. She asked for advice, and has received it over and over: Bring this kid home, pay a real therapist and do her job as a PARENT. She refuses to listen.
QFT...
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QFT...[/quote]
um, what?
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"QFT" is internet slang meaning "quoted for truth." This term applies on forums and posting boards where users can edit their posts, thus the QFT holds the poster to their original statement. It is also used to express agreement with a previous poster's statement and validate its veracity. Other variations include "quoted for truthiness" and "quite fucking true." QFT can also mean "quit fucking talking."
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quite fucking true.
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No, I have not refused to listen. I have heard you loud and clear. I am refusing to obey your commands. You want total body and mind control, total authoritarian control, you are yelling and bullying me and saying if I don't listen to YOUR absolute black and white truth then I am a lousy,lazy mother who should have abandoned my child and should get the fuck off this board.
Have I heard you correctly?
How are you any different from your former tormentors? Sometimes people turn into what they hate the most. I hope this is not happening to you. It would be a shame because you have some truths to share and could make a difference but you are so consumed by your own fanaticism that you probably will contribute little or no good change in this area.
I believe it is you who has not been hearing me. I did not ask for advice about what I should do, I asked for INFORMATION regarding the existence of any meaning therapeutic programs. I got it, in FORNITS opinion there are none. We will go hiking and canoeing ourselves, we are doing the therapy thing outside of summit.... but get off your godlike thrones and stop freaken yelling at me and others like me because we am not obeying your commands. We are going to make our own decisions for what we think is the best for our families.
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No, I have not refused to listen. I have heard you loud and clear. I am refusing to obey your commands. You want total body and mind control, total authoritarian control, you are yelling and bullying me and saying if I don't listen to YOUR absolute black and white truth then I am a lousy,lazy mother who should have abandoned my child and should get the fuck off this board.
Have I heard you correctly?
Some people, yes.
How are you any different from your former tormentors? Sometimes people turn into what they hate the most. I hope this is not happening to you. It would be a shame because you have some truths to share and could make a difference but you are so consumed by your own fanaticism that you probably will contribute little or no good change in this area.
I believe it is you who has not been hearing me. I did not ask for advice about what I should do, I asked for INFORMATION regarding the existence of any meaning therapeutic programs. I got it, in FORNITS opinion there are none. We will go hiking and canoeing ourselves, we are doing the therapy thing outside of summit.... but get off your godlike thrones and stop freaken yelling at me and others like me because we am not obeying your commands. We are going to make our own decisions for what we think is the best for our families.
Well. Fair enough. I don't agree with the commands to take your kid home, but I do agree with the suggestion. Whether or not you do it is totally up to you.
People: This parent is listening and has listened. "listen" does not mean "obey". She has a point about authoritarianism and group think BTW. It's nowhere near the same as program (she can turn away)... but as I'm sure you know, usually, the more you push, the more you get resistance. So just present information and have faith that a good person will make the right decision. What good will it do to alienate this parent? I am sort of frustrated TSW removed this from the Facilities Questions forum, but Technically, she didn't mention a facility until late in the thread, and I can see his reasoning.
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Well I'm not in a program anymore therefor I don't have to deal with the circular logic of one all damn day in my own forum.
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I believe it is you who has not been hearing me. I did not ask for advice about what I should do, I asked for INFORMATION regarding the existence of any meaning therapeutic programs. I got it, in FORNITS opinion there are none. We will go hiking and canoeing ourselves, we are doing the therapy thing outside of summit.... but get off your godlike thrones and stop freaken yelling at me and others like me because we am not obeying your commands. We are going to make our own decisions for what we think is the best for our families.
You decision for what is best for your own family has been refuted numerous times on this thread and have you yet removed your child from that place?
You got information, just not the sort you wanted. Get over yourself this is life and rarely ever does it go the way we want it to.
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You decision for what is best for your own family has been refuted numerous times on this thread and have you yet removed your child from that place?
WHAT! Because you and others who have the same single minded approach tell me what I should do means you're right and I am wrong and therefore I must obey inorder to remain? Sounds like Nazi program mentality to me. WAKE UP you are really in a stupor!
Yes I did get some info related to my question, not what I hoped to hear but what I believed would be the answer. I accept it. There are no good therapeutic wilderness or boarding type schools - they do not exist- it would be an oxymoron. I GOT IT.
The fact I did not ask about Summit or what I should meant nothing to you only that I am not obeying your pack mentality.
I thought since this was no longer in facilities and in TTI section - we were not on your forum any longer.
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Ironic when program parents talk about repression, forced ideologies in an open and free discussion. All they have to do is not type in fornits.com in the URL window to save themselves from this horror. Their kids, well, they wish they could be so lucky. Anyone who types out in any way fornits is somehow repressive, group think or program like has no idea what they are talking about and should consider themselves lucky.
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You decision for what is best for your own family has been refuted numerous times on this thread and have you yet removed your child from that place?
WHAT! Because you and others who have the same single minded approach tell me what I should do means you're right and I am wrong and therefore I must obey inorder to remain? Sounds like Nazi program mentality to me. WAKE UP you are really in a stupor!
Yes I did get some info related to my question, not what I hoped to hear but what I believed would be the answer. I accept it. There are no good therapeutic wilderness or boarding type schools - they do not exist- it would be an oxymoron. I GOT IT.
The fact I did not ask about Summit or what I should meant nothing to you only that I am not obeying your pack mentality.
I thought since this was no longer in facilities and in TTI section - we were not on your forum any longer.
So while you rant and rave on the internet your kid is in a program.
I see how it is.
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I thought since this was no longer in facilities and in TTI section - we were not on your forum any longer.
That is correct.
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Ironic when program parents talk about repression, forced ideologies in an open and free discussion. All they have to do is not type in fornits.com in the URL window to save themselves from this horror. Their kids, well, they wish they could be so lucky. Anyone who types out in any way fornits is somehow repressive, group think or program like has no idea what they are talking about and should consider themselves lucky.
very true. But please. This thread is heading to hell fast. Come on ppl... can't we just all get along?!?!
*face palm*
Edit: headed to the dentists. I'm crossing my fingers that somehow this will calm down a bit.
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Act UP seems like a saucy bitch. I'd like to meet her!
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in my own forum.
Excuse me?
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in my own forum.
Excuse me?
He moderates it...just what are you trying to ask him, guest?
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Lady, if you consider advice from fornits posters "pack mentality," then you are quite welcome to do exactly what you are doing:
Keep your son in a program, where he is receiving no therapy or genuine help.
BUT, in the meantime, you are not welcome to insult people. So STFU, and stop wasting people's time!
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in my own forum.
Excuse me?
He moderates it...just what are you trying to ask him, guest?
I wasn't asking anything Frod[/i]. I was surprised to see him refer to this as his forum. From what I can read below, nobody moderates this.
Compliance is not character. Weakness is not strength. Regression is not growth. "Tough love" leads to tough hate. Time for some straight talk about the Troubled Parent Industry.
This is an uncensored, unmoderated forum where all viewpoints are both welcome and fair game for debate. It's a snap-shot of the Teen Help industry, and there's nothing inspiring or heart-warming about it. It's pretty damned ugly. Enter at your own risk.
Moderator Nobody
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in my own forum.
Excuse me?
He moderates it...just what are you trying to ask him, guest?
I wasn't asking anything Frod[/i]. I was surprised to see him refer to this as his forum. From what I can read below, nobody moderates this.
Oh, I thought he was referring to the one he actually runs...
in that case, sorry, my bad.....
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in my own forum.
Excuse me?
He moderates it...just what are you trying to ask him, guest?
I wasn't asking anything Frod[/i]. I was surprised to see him refer to this as his forum. From what I can read below, nobody moderates this.
Oh, I thought he was referring to the one he actually runs...
in that case, sorry, my bad.....
np
:wink:
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Oh, I thought he was referring to the one he actually runs...
in that case, sorry, my bad.....
I was referring to the one I moderate.
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Ah... so, uh.. ok..
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Ok. What is it you're looking for here? He said, in this thread, that he didn't like her screwing up his forum. I, understandably, thought he was referring to this one. He wasn't. That's about it.
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Ah... so, uh.. ok..
Knew I shouda quoted.
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Yeah...just pass me that joint... lol
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Yeah...just pass me that joint... lol
And that would also be my answer to the OP's question: "Is there ANY program that is genuinely therapeutic?" ::seg::
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Yeah...just pass me that joint... lol
:rofl: ::cheers:: ::bandit:: :smokin: :wave:
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Yeah...just pass me that joint... lol
:rofl: ::cheers:: ::bandit:: :smokin: :wave:
I'm serious.. pass it to me.. :rofl:
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Yeah...just pass me that joint... lol
:rofl: ::cheers:: ::bandit:: :smokin: :wave:
I'm serious.. pass it to me.. :rofl:
I'll give it a shot.
(inhales deeply) ::bandit:: :smokin:
'Ere, take it.
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Ok. What is it you're looking for here? He said, in this thread, that he didn't like her screwing up his forum. I, understandably, thought he was referring to this one. He wasn't. That's about it.
No not so much screwing it up. I asked her about 3 or 4 times to name the program her kid is in. After she didn't answer I decided that I don't really need the action in my own forum that much anyway. I like it quiet there. Moderating is a pain in the ass even at the best of times.
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Ah well you know I can't toke till I get out of this country so I'll just finish my beer and hit the sack.
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I'm serious.. pass it to me.. :rofl:
="Guest"] I'll give it a shot.
(inhales deeply) ::bandit:: :smokin:
'Ere, take it.
Did ya get it?
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Yes thnx, mystery joint smoker.
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Ok. What is it you're looking for here? He said, in this thread, that he didn't like her screwing up his forum. I, understandably, thought he was referring to this one. He wasn't. That's about it.
No not so much screwing it up. I asked her about 3 or 4 times to name the program her kid is in. After she didn't answer I decided that I don't really need the action in my own forum that much anyway. I like it quiet there. Moderating is a pain in the ass even at the best of times.
Isn't that why you/ginger/somebody added me as a moderator to the Facilities Questions forum? Next time, can you please let me have a shot before you give up on a thread and throw it into this wonderful happy place we call the TTI.
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My son, 17, has been diagnosed with Bipolar 2 and currently is stable via medication. He has been in individual therapy and we are going to start family work (again).
He has struggled since early childhood with low self esteem, depression, possible ODD, ADD, passive/aggressive, anger. As I understand it, he is bordering on a diagnosis of personality disorder. The PD is the scariest of all, since only by changing the way he views the world and his place in it can he be saved from this diagnosis and all the unhappiness it brings. His thinking and way of looking at the world is truly skewed.
I understand that DBT (and CBT) has been extremely effective with adolescents like him. Does anyone know of a program that uses these therapies and not just behavioral modification to achieve compliance?
He is currently attending a dept of ed funded TBS, which in the past I have described as benignly negligent. I have my own guilt for accepting this placement but have done so because of the fear that a different placement might be �overkill�. I am afraid that if we do not act now, he could lead a very difficult and lonely life.
It seems impossible to cut through the fa�ade and lies if a program is intent on enrolling your child. If anyone has information that a genuine program exists I would really appreciate hearing about it.
I understand that one size does not fit all.
Thanks.
There is no scientific evidence that any therapeutic boarding school is genuinely therapeutic. The US surgeon general, among many others, has made a similar statement expressing concern about the negative social environment that kids are exposed to in these programs.
The only time a reasonable parent could send their child to a therapeutic boarding school is if the child is an immediate danger to themselves or others. And then, the period of time they are there should be the minimum necessary to eliminate that danger.
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No, not a TBS...
Send them to an emergency hospital, a place with real doctors, during a crisis.
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There is no excuse for sending a kid to a therapeutic boarding school. If the kid is in immediate danger to himself or others, she needs to be in a psychiatric hospital.
Ed Cons??? The name Educational Consultant itself is a lie, as is the rest of the stuff they peddle. They have a sales pitch that they have practiced on possibly hundreds of parents before you. They can fool you just like a used car salesperson and with less moral restraint.
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i went to cedu john dewey academy and work in therapy now-
cedu sucked and john dewey destroyed what was left.
monarch family healing wants to see kids go home. parents and kids do therapy for a week then kids go on a two week expedition to practice their new "skills" all with the intent to go home at the end
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john dewey..
i came accorss thier site and was shocked by the fact that there is a meeting where the kids decide wether they want to admit a new student..Can you tell me about john dewey, dear?
yes, cedu......a nightmare, a murderous nightmare
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i went to cedu john dewey academy and work in therapy now-
cedu sucked and john dewey destroyed what was left.
monarch family healing wants to see kids go home. parents and kids do therapy for a week then kids go on a two week expedition to practice their new "skills" all with the intent to go home at the end
http://www.natsap.org/program_details.asp?id=201 (http://www.natsap.org/program_details.asp?id=201)
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The NATSAP page says the minimum stay is 30 days.
And really, does anyone believe what a NATSAP member says?
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No. A program is another name for a cult/pyramid scheme masquerading as a therapeutic institution.
/thread