Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Straight, Inc. and Derivatives => Topic started by: shaggys on September 03, 2009, 03:23:44 PM
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I just had to see if anyone else out there has a problem verbalizing intimate feelings for others. I sat in Straight for a year and a half telling people all day long that i loved them even when I despised them. I mean, how many times a day did we have to yell in unison " luv ya" so and so. Probably hundreds of times a day. Once I got out I just couldn't hardly say it anymore. Or every time I did I felt inside like I was just lying. It has made me question myself as to whether or not I even know what love is. It seems like I knew it instinctively before I went to Straight but somehow they took that away from me too. I am determined to take it all back. It may not be entirely possible but I want back everything they took. At least I would like to be able to say "I love you" without feeling like a fucking lying scumbag.
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I hear you loud , and I understand how you feel, no one should have to go through faking anything in life. It does make you feel a bit unusual when you have to say something you do not mean, and that was a long time to have to pretend, so I do understand. Just now when you say it mean it is all. Not your average soul walks around blurting love ya to people they do not know anyways, just have to get use to it I suppose. Sorry you had to go through that.
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Absolutely. Great post.
Just in general the not knowing what to do with your eyes, where to look, when your talking to someone. The feeling that your lying, even though you're not. A sense of dissengenuiness or something...the expectation that no-one will believe you. A sense of bein lost, of having no reference points by which to go.
hmmm...yeah...and you are so right. $tr8 Inc. was truly degenerate to be holding individuals against their will and systematically stripping them of all their social coping mechanisms and raping their very identities, in front of all those people who claimed to love them. That place was a nightmare. And it's no wonder that people who might have otherwise turned out o.k., even if they were pot-smokin high school drop-outs, instead came outta their time in $tr8 completely psychologically and socially confused and disoriented and truly disturbed. Good luck functioning in the adult world.
It seems like a lot of stuff turns out to be the opposite of what they say...by "they", I mean public school, $tr8, the judge, the president, the pope. All tryin to keep ya on the rez.
Sting sings: ... "...with words they try to jail ya..."... --Spirits in the Material World.
So true.
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The "L"-word...ugh...
I have been in a long term relationshit for almost 10 years. I care for her deeply, her welfare, her health, her emotional state, I dont want her to want for anything, I do my best to keep finacial woes at safe distance. I buy her silly things to me, but things she for whatever reason, adores.
It has only ben in past 6 months that I have used the "L"-Word, directly related to her. My initial fear was that if I said, "I Love you", the game would begin, "I love you more", and then I am to say, "Oh no, I love you more", to which she reponds, "No , no, no I love you even more than that" ad infinitum...or is it ad nauseum...
I know I am Loved. I know I Love in return. I am cherished and adored (although not easiest person to live with) and I cherish and adore her in return (although she is not easiest person to live with).
The "L"-word, or the absence of the use of the word was also never discussed in this relationshit, up untill recently when it 'spontaniously' came out. Then it was discussed....Oy! I had to explain what has already been written. All those years using the "L"-Word so flippantly, sarcasticly and without even thinking, cheapened the meaning and the effect of the word.
I personally recognise the feelings of Love, I am a nurturing sorta person, I genuinely care deeply about a wide range of things, people and circumstances. Especially those near and dear to me. Those that know me, and know me well know that I have 3 Maine Coon cats....I adore my Coons, Love my Coons, my Coons are feed the best food $$$ can buy. I take more photos of them than anything. I have often thought, the more people I meet, the more I love my Coons.
I began to feel horribly that I could or would not express this to my beloved woman in my life, but I could freely shower my Coons with affection. Although she never mentioned it, I began to suspect what woman in her right mind would tolerate my "Love" of the Maine Coons and yet never have actually said the word to her...What the hell?
So, after almost a decade of being with her and her alone, I would have to risk using the "L"-word. I couldnt live any longer using the "L"-Word as a verb, an action rather than emotion. I couldnt assume that she knew how I felt. So, slowly I began introducing the word...once every few months, then graduated to every few weeks and now to at least weekly I tell her that I Love her.
I am fortunate that she doesnt play the ping-pong game back and forth..Love you...love you more...love you into affinity (still gives me the willies). How many other women in a decade long relationshit put up with that? How long would this woman put up with that? The risk was too great. I had lost love before, was I prepaired to lose again? All over a four letter word that the world cherishes, strives for, fights for, dies for...because 3 decades ago the "L"-Word was used like a two headed snake. Love being said without the sting of sarcasim, the fear of humiliation, the fear of dismissal was a chance I felt terrified to take. And yet, I felt I had no choice but to end the cycle.
I took the chance. However, I dont play games with it. Today, she knows why...she doesnt fully understand it, but knows why. At least she knows I am not an emotionless, stone hearted, inconsiderate prick. 10 years into this now, and I try harder than I did at 2 years into the relationshit. Some how I learned how to place a value on our relationshit. Then learned I had to put a name to that value, and that name was Love.
Of all the bullshit we went thru, this mis-use, this over use of the word probably effected me the most. For over 30 years when I hear the words come from somewhere..."Love Ya", tween my ears I automatically make the addendum "ass hole"...Kinda flows like this; "Love Ya, Ass Hole". For the most part I suspect thats well and good, yet if I hope to have any close relationshit with anyone, this term, Love, must be understood tween my own ears and heart.
Much Healing
In Peace
woof
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I hear y'all...Instead of saying "luv you (insert name); I say "I love you (insert name)...it is a small difference, but stopped the cringing.
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I just had to see if anyone else out there has a problem verbalizing intimate feelings for others.
Absolutely. I would cringe when my parents would say it after Straight, I'd usually respond with "You, too" or something like that.
I have been in two long term, cohabitating relationships in my life, and have had a couple of other significant relationships that did not involve living together. In my first, I used the L word mainly because I felt obligated to--possibly residue from Straight. In the second long term, cohabitating relationship, I NEVER once said "I love you to my partner. After we had broken up, she used that as an example of how "cold I had become". Maybe she was right.
I sat in Straight for a year and a half telling people all day long that i loved them even when I despised them. I mean, how many times a day did we have to yell in unison " luv ya" so and so. Probably hundreds of times a day. Once I got out I just couldn't hardly say it anymore.
Yeah, words like "love", "friend", and "family" took on whole different connotations after Straight.
Or every time I did I felt inside like I was just lying. It has made me question myself as to whether or not I even know what love is. It seems like I knew it instinctively before I went to Straight but somehow they took that away from me too. I am determined to take it all back. It may not be entirely possible but I want back everything they took. At least I would like to be able to say "I love you" without feeling like a fucking lying scumbag.
I second that emotion........
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The only people to whom I can say and from whom I can hear "I love you" without feeling something close to panic are my children. Oh, and I did the same thing as someone mentioned above. I explained to my kids why "luv ya" made me want to throw a punch and insisted that we say "I love you" instead.
Not only that but I can't flirt. I either hesitate, missing the rhythm entirely or rock it too hard, leading to awkward misunderstandings and hurt pride and other unpleasantness. Worse yet? Even when I'm acting right and the other person is off kilter I can't tell. So I wind up sucking up all kinds of bad treatment, missing obvious signs that things are not right cause I don't have the confidence to call em as I see em.
I owe this to having not ever gotten a chance to practice when I was young and supposed to. By the time I got free, I was too embarrassed to even acknowledge to myself that I was missing something important and to go about making up for lost time. I just decided to be made of stone. That seemed to work out ok till a few years ago when I just had to break my glass and start dancin. So now, here I am, 44 years old going about making all the silly, foolish mistakes a teenager is supposed to do.
I think this is what they call mid-life crisis. Did you know that that's entirely a Western thing and even most of our fellow westerners don't ever experience it?
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My own tribulations with this are long-standing and storied, somebody telling me " I love you" conjures up a voice in my head that says things like :
for now
till you get to know me
uh oh,what does she think she can use me for
that wont last,youll bail on me if I need you.
I wholeheartedly agree that when I SHOULD have been learning to date,be in relationships,et al.....I was either locked up,in a monkey farm like straight, strung out, or only interested in fucking.
I have really poor judgement when it comes to matters of the heart, If there were 100 women in a room , I always end up with:
1] somebody who is selfish as hell.
2]somebody who has to call a caseworker in the a.m.
3] somebody who is crazy,but its not obvious.
4] somebody who wants an "instant Daddy" {just add paycheck,makes its own sauce} for their kids.
point being Ive gotten to the point where trust is just out of the fuckin question,I can only really count on myself.
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After Straight I was suicidal. Having a baby gave me a reason to love with deep (often powerfully frightening) conviction. Knowing there was a life inside me gave me a reason to live. I had my first born 3 years after leaving Straight. I had just turned 20. I was in for 18+ months, not exactly sure on the dates. Becoming a mommy gave me a reason to stop hating myself, though for years I continued to struggle with self-worth... To this day I still feel "guilty!" for no reason. That's the one embedded thorn of Straight for me... Useless shame. It's such a mind-fuck. Such a waste of emotional energy and thought, yet it seems compulsory and subconscious. I have also retained the ability to cross-examine someone like a rabid attorney on speed. I have to keep that in check. I used to be quiet and shy as a kid/teen. The only rage I ever felt was toward my parents. That "love" gave me a goal to attain; Never be like my parents.
Well, I'm almost 40 and so far, so good. :cheers:
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I find myself floating in a vacuum when it comes to actually saying "I Love You" to most family members. During my phases at home, I remember on alot of nights I would instigate a crazy parody of the Waltons once the lights were out. This gave everyone in the room including newcomers the chance to say what was really on their minds without fear of retribution. It also gave them the last word following one of my brother Mike's b.s. Moral Inventory reviews which sometimes led to disaster. We would all lie in the dark and come up with voices and I usually started by saying goodnight to my newcomer. The voice of Fat Albert was one of my favorites. One night Brian Marble astounded us all after it had gotten quiet with a dead on balls accurate impression of John Wayne. "Well lemme tell ya Pilgrim!" Shit like that made things bearable.
In the here and now, I still can't even say "I love you" first to anybody. I always have to second the motion, and even then it's not with any real conviction. I still live in Public Housing and things have gotten a whole lot better following the eviction of a problem family and the inevitable drug induced stroke of the asshole downstairs that slashed my tires. I do my tightrope walk through the delicate realities of living among desperate and deprived people that will mess up your shit in a heartbeat on a daily basis, and some of them, I have become close to. I am the surrogate uncle to three mixed race kids. When the foodstamps run out, I make sure the oldest boy has enough to eat by bringing over containers of chicken or spaghetti sauce that I claim I don't have space in my freezer for. Other times, when people are just sitting around and the kids are resting up between fighting over toys, I'll steal away and come back with an armfull of freezy pops. If a kid gets a flat tire, I tell em the "Tire Fairy" might fix it if they are good, and when they come home from school they see see their bike sitting on a full one. I know these kids appreciate me, but I also know to keep a safe distance as well.
Finally, there is my church. I still have a long way to go before the pastor calls me up to be a Deacon, but I know that day is coming. There are still a few demons I need to put to rest for good. I never thought I would belong to a church the way that I do here now. They accept me for real, and that can be really scary. It is sometimes almost painful to know how much people rely on you when you are still full of self hate and doubt. The main thing missing in the church is music. They have gone without a church Keyboard Player for over 3 years now. I have dabbled with learning to play keys, but I am inconsistant. There really is no excuse for it, because I have enough time on my hands living on Disability to learn every instrument in an entire orchestra. I played "When the Man Comes Around" on my guitar for a Wednesday night service about a year ago, and the look on the peoples faces was incredible. They were so grateful to hear something live and inspiring, rather than the canned music played over the PA with the powerpoint pictures on the screen. Recently, a local sports bar has instituted an Open Mike night and last week I ran home and brought back my Fender Bass and my amp and accompanied a guy with an electric/acoustic. I don't really know how to play Bass, but I just winged it, sorta like when you play a harmonica when you are drunk. It went over surprisingly well and they are counting on me to bring it again Wed nite. This led me to go to the Cleveland Public Library today because they have a copy of the "Complete Idiot's Guide to Playing Bass Guitar," and I definately need some pointers. So, after I cross the street, a voice says, "Howdy Stranger, what brings you to these here parts?" It was my sister, who was in her car getting ready to back out and leave. We chit chatted for a while, and then came the vaccuum. I filled it with a "You take care now, it's fixing to rain," as the first silver dollar size drops began to hit the parking lot.
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That was a nice post, 001010. I almost said "I can relate", but after the program, its not my favorite phrase. I went to CEDU, but the forced affection and emotional intimacy (exploitation), along with the smooshing really confused our relational realities. I have an extremely hard time showing affection or saying I Love You to friends and family. I have to tell myself, "ok, your best friend is crying. You need to hug her now" and it is a forced gesture on my part. My mother once cried because I never hug her and she felt like it was rejection. And she's not even much of a hugger, and certainly not prone to guilt trips. But it all feels too confusing - even when I feel close to the people I love.
But I am not a cold person.
I just thank God I can be affectionate with my kids. It is affection I render freely and easily. I tell them every day. I hug them every day. It's nice to know I have it in me. I don't know that I would know that about me if I didn't have children. It is 100% free, no expectations asked for or needed.
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I really feel for all who have this feeling, I now know why after all these years why I am not affectionate, and the normal people like my boy friend ( who never had to go through such b.s. in life) do see this and it is so sad because I try so hard to be more affectionate also just being happy, but yes I so understand every last way all feel, I wonder if we will all ever get to be ourselves 100 percent, I hardly ever smile, when I am Happy which I do want to be always, and rightfully should it just never stays like a real smile should. And I know I love everything around me, just something that left during that time, just can not explain it. The souls that acted out against all of us should have to experience what all of us felt or still feel, when I think about it, it just sucks feeling like this, but try looking at pictures before this period in your life, I did, and I was smiling like you never saw before in ones life. That makes me feel better knowing I was a really truly happy before that moment, dig up old pictures if all have, hopefully you too will have many smile that are real and say I love you and know what love is, and was. Wow this is good getting out, I really know why I have so much sadness that just will not leave 100 percent no matter what I try to do.
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sometimes I think there is no such thing as love,or that love is only love till one stops being 'convienient',at least its been my experience that this is true. If your kid acts up and its not convienient for you,fuck it let um go to jail,or put um in str8,or hey hows about that military school in S.C. In later life it got to be like,I'll love you till you get all depressed and shit then when it doesnt fit my almighty plans,or youre not fixin it fast enough for me .......FUCK YOU.
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I don't know Seamus. I love my kids more than anything. And its okay if they don't conform. I've made a lot of personal sacrifices on their behalf. Easily. Its unconditional no matter what. One is easy and one is hard. I love my challenging kid too. I can appreciate his inability to conform. It will get harder as he gets older. But I'll still love him. He's shown strength in some areas other don't.
But I don't know if I really believe so much in romantic love any more. It's sad. I feel disconnected from the possibility of it. And tired of Bullshit.
I don't envy those who have more stuff than me...more/bigger house, cars, clothes, etc. whatever. But I do envy those who find real enduring love. It must be nice.
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Amor, I couldn't have said it better.
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There is only one person on this planet I say "I love you" to, with full annunciation and with full sincerity, and that is my fiancee/wife. She is everything to me.
Close friends who have earned my trust get "love you, man."
Everyone else can fuck themselves.
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Dude, what, and your cat gets nada?
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When I owned and cared for dogs myself,I finally learned what it was like to be loved in earnest.I believe that no person is capable of loving another person like a dog does its master.On a three week cruise,three bachelors all said the same thing,that they most look forward to reuniting with their dogs.Sound like a coincidence?I don't think so.It's nice to be loved.A man can't be a mother so possibly a mother to her child rivals that of a dog to their master,except in my family.
When my oldest daughter was born,I started experiencing mood swings that called for thorazine,forget the prozac or lithium.I thought that only women could have post-partum.Here it was,this baby girl and I was just so overwhelmed with emotion and unable to show it because the after-effects of so many "bumps" from the past 35 years were still unresolved.It would be nice to blame it on Str8,but that wouldn't be honest.Having a father without even a shred of paternal instincts for his son along with the other sewage,such as str8,could no longer be denied.Love,to me,is undeniably action,not emotion.Saying I love you in deeds is far more important than those three words that seem difficult for the honest to say,yet flows very easily from the lips of liars.
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:bump:
My sympathies for coping with this emotional minefield. Love and trust are so closely linked in the human heart.
I have no personal experience in a program, so forgive me if I misunderstand. But it's not surprising that love would be difficult or confusing considering what program survivors have been through. I have often wondered how my niece will ever learn to trust anyone, especially adults, after what was done to her.
It sounds like having your whole emotional system re-wired. Are you angry? Then hug! Do you despise someone? Tell them you love them! Do you miss your parents? They love you so much they sent you away!
This is a recipe for madness.
I'm guessing that for many people it would take years of work to understand (again) what love and trust really look like, and to learn to love and trust in return. The corporations that run programs should never be allowed to treat anyone like this. Ever.
Auntie Em
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Dude, what, and your cat gets nada?
lol. Oops!
my cats get: "who's a cat? are you a cat? youre a cat! are you a member of the feline persuasion? yes you are! a boooghie boooghie boo!"
(http://http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/3/3a/Intelligence_v_proximity.png)
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We are among the very few animals who have the actual ability to chemically bond with something. There is an amazing chemical in our brains called Oxytocin. Oxytocin is released during times of intimate bonding. Just so happens that the human Oxytocin receptors are very near our pleasure receptors.... so when we release oxytocin.. we are rewarded by our pleasure receptors. Animals like cats and dogs have fairly close receptors also, but not as close as humans. Interestingly enough, Prairie Voles and some birds have very close ones too.. encouraging them to "mate for life". When these receptors are turned off in laboratory animals, (through the use of the same drug that inhibits heroin and morphine from reaching their "pleasurable" receptors.. It's called Narc-X or something - given to overdosed patients), these "receptor blocked" animals, who are genetically wired for peaceful - monogamous sociability, begin to show extreme signs of aggression and will mate randomly with any animal in the cage.
This oxytocin is being heavily studied now to gain a better understanding of how and why people "love" anything.. and why and why not do some people have no ability or desire to remain monogamous in relationships. It is possible that the pleasure receptors that should reward us for releasing oxytocin can become damaged, turned off, or degenerated through various traumas.. including emotional types.
It will be very interesting to learn more about this Oxytocin as more information is discovered.
Science does know that this chemical is heavily produced during situations like sex, breastfeeding and new "partner type" relationships, and is released in smaller amounts during any social interactions. It is no wonder we bond easily with cats and dogs... and why they bond with us. It is proven that reptiles are wired completely different.. They produce very small amounts of oxytocin and their pleasure receptors are quite far from the oxytocin receptors... Reptiles do not have the genetic / evolutionary make up to actually feel.. "love" at all.
Sorry so long.. But hey I am learning very interesting stuff in Biology =) Wow, I love school! Never thought I'd ever get a chance to go back..
<3 Withdraw
Peace2uall!
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I remember reading about that! I thought it was fascinating that when a human looks at something they find cute, its the same chemical reaction to being high. (well, in very basic terms.)
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We are among the very few animals who have the actual ability to chemically bond with something. There is an amazing chemical we can put in our brains called Oxycontin. Oxycontin is released by cruching the pill in a spoon, adding water, and heating it. Draw it up in a syringe and mainline it. It's EVEN BETTER than the chemical interactions we call "love". Just so happens that the human Oxycontin receptors are very near our pleasure receptors.... so when we mainline oxycontin,.. we are rewarded by our pleasure receptors. Animals like cats and dogs have fairly close receptors also, but not as close as humans. Interestingly enough, Prairie Voles and some birds have very close ones too.. encouraging them to "stay high for life".
When these receptors are turned off in laboratory animals, (through the use of the same drug that inhibits heroin and morphine from reaching their "pleasurable" receptors.. It's called Narc-X or something - given to overdosed patients), these "receptor blocked" animals, who are genetically wired for peaceful - monogamous sociability, begin to show extreme signs of sickness and will piss or shit randomly in the cage.
This oxycontin is being heavily abused now to gain a better ability to cope with the bullshit that surrounds us.. and what the fuck is with people have no ability or desire to remain high all the time? It is possible that the pleasure receptors that should reward us for releasing oxytocin can become damaged, turned off, or degenerated through various traumas.. including emotional types-----which is why survivors of Straight and other programs need to mainline about twice the amount a non-survivor would need.
It will be very interesting to learn more about this Oxycontin as more prescriptions are beig written and filled.
Science does know that this chemical is heavily produced in pharmaceutical labs all across the country. It is no wonder we bond easily with hookers and junkies... and why they bond with us. It is proven that people who think Straight "saved" them are wired completely different.. They have very small genitals and their pleasure receptors are quite far from the oxycontin receptors... Straightlings do not have the genetic / evolutionary make up to actually feel.. "love" at all.
I concur........
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Love. It is not easy for me to fall in love. And I think I feel like its impossible. I think I am just numb. I don't know if I am capable. Or if I can trust. Or if anyone is truly deserving of it. I don't mean fidelity, I mean emotionally, over time. I think its one of those things that will fall through the cracks for me. Right now, all my college friends are married and seem so happy on their facebook pages and it sort of kills me.