Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: GregFL on July 04, 2003, 02:34:00 PM
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Anyone remember him from the St Pete Seed?
http://www.dc.state.fl.us/ActiveInmates ... 1024650287 (http://www.dc.state.fl.us/ActiveInmates/detail.asp?Bookmark=1&From=list&SessionID=1024650287)
anyone know the story of a head injury obtained in the seed?
HELP PLEASE!
A free man must be able to endure it when his fellow men act and live otherwise than he considers proper. He must free himself from the habit, just as soon as something does not please him, of calling for the police.
Ludwig Von Mises
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Excerpt from one of his hearings:
CORRECT. I THINK THAT, WITH RESPECT TO THE DRUG USAGE, THE SEED PROGRAM ITSELF, MAY NOT HAVE BEEN KNOWN TO THE DEFENSE COUNSEL AT THE TIME OF THE INITIAL TRIAL AND RESENTENCING. WHAT HE DID HAVE FROM THE MOTHER THE MOTHER ULTIMATELY TESTIFIES, EVEN AT THE EVIDENTIARY HEARING, THAT SHE DIDN'T KNOW OF ANY DRUG USAGE. THE STATE DOES NOT DISPUTE THAT. WHAT SHE DID KNOW, I AM SORRY, FROM THE POINT OF THE SEED ON. SHE CLEARLY KNEW THAT HER SON HAD A PROBLEM. THAT IS WHY THE SON WAS TAKEN FROM HER. HE WAS NOT TAKEN UNBEKNOWNST OF HER, OUT OF HER NOME HOME, AND PLACED IN THE SEED PROGRAM AS A TEENAGER.
WHAT THE NATURE OF THE EVIDENCE DEVELOPED?
I DON'T THINK THAT IT IS DETAILED DEVELOPED. THE SISTER HAD NO INDICATION OF HIS DRUG USAGE AND CERTAINLY THERE IS NO RECORD, CERTAINLY PRIOR TO SEED, OF THE FAMILY MEMBERS KNOWING ANYTHING OF THE FIRSTHAND BASIS, AS FAR AS PARTAKING OF DRUGS WITH THE DEFENDANT OR ANYTHING OF THAT NATURE, AND WHAT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE WITH RESPECT TO THE DRUG ISSUE IS THAT, DURING THIS GUILT PHASE, IT WAS GOING FORWARD WITH THE THREE OTHER CODEFENDANTS THAT WERE INVOLVED WITH, THIS SO MANY OF THE DEPOSITIONS TAKING PLACE MUCH MULTIPLE ATTORNEYS. EACH -- PLACE WERE MULTIPLE ATTORNEYS, EACH ATTORNEY FOR EACH CODEFENDANT, AND ANYTHING THAT THE WITNESSES KNEW, AND THEY DEPOSED MANY OF THE ACQUAINTANCES OF THE DEFENDANT, HIMSELF, AND QUESTIONS WERE ASKED ABOUT THE DRUG USAGE AT THAT POINT, AND THERE IS NO EVIDENCE ANYWHERE IN THE RECORD, AND SPECIFICALLY, TOO, ROBIN FERDELLA WAS DEPOSED PRIOR TO THE GUILT PHASE WRKTS DEFENSE ATTORNEY PRESENT AS WELL AS THE OTHERS AND SHE WAS THE DEFENDANT'S GIRLFRIEND AT THE TIME, AND SHE KNEW OF NO OTHER TYPE OF DRUG USAGE OTHER THAN MARIJUANA, SO MR. O'LEARY'S BELIEF AT THE TIME AND, I WOULD SUBMIT, WHAT IS ACTUALLY TRUE TO THIS DATE, IS THERE WAS NOTHING MORE THAN THAN AS YOU MENTIONED WHAT THE BOYS IN HIS GROUP WERE DOING, SMOKING SOME POT AND DRINKING SOME BEER.
Truth resides in every human heart, and one has to search for it there, and to be guided by truth as one sees it. But no one has a right to coerce others to act according to his own view of truth.
--Mohandas K. Gandhi
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Friends, one of our own is on death row for participaing in a murder. Part of his appeal was based on the damage the Seed did to him. A further excerpt:
HE DECEMBER TESSFIED IN 1991 THAT -- HE TESTIFIED IN 1991 THAT IT DIDN'T OCCUR TO HIM TO OBTAIN MR. WALTON'S SCHOOL RECORDS. MR. WALTON DIDN'T MENTION ADDICTION TO HIM, SO HE DIDN'T THINK THERE WAS A PROBLEM. HE DIDN'T BOTHER TALKING TO THE SISTER, KIMBERLY WALTON, WHO WAS IN THE SAME SEED PROGRAM WITH MR MR. WALTON. IT WAS HER TESTIMONY THAT WAS PRESENTED AT THE EVIDENTIARY HEARING IN 1991 THAT EXPLAINED THE NATURE OF THIS EXPERIMENTAL PROGRAM AND HOW DAMAGING IT WAS TO PEOPLE WHO WENT THROUGH THE PROGRAM. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not.
James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785
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a description of the crime from the web
Date of Offense: 06/18/82
Date of Sentence: 03/14/84
Circumstances of Offense:
Richard Cooper was convicted and sentenced to death for his part in three murders that occurred during the course of a robbery on 06/18/82.
Eight-year-old Chris Fridella contacted police in the early morning hours of 06/18/82, notifying them that his father and two of his father?s friends had been shot. When authorities arrived at the scene, they found Steven Fridella, Bobby Martindale, and Gary Petersen dead, lying face down on the floor with their hands bound behind them. The victim?s wallets had been rummaged through, and the house had been scoured in an apparent search for valuables.
Approximately six months later, Robin Fridella, Steven Fridella?s ex-wife, furnished police with information that pointed to Richard Cooper and his accomplices: Terry Van Royal, Jason Dirk Walton and Jeff McCoy. During an interview, Cooper confessed to the murders and relayed the following information in his statement. The four men had planned the robbery for over a week and, on the evening of 06/17/82, they went to the Fridella residence. Jeff McCoy stayed in the car while the other three men entered the house. Cooper, Royal, and Walton rounded up the adults in house, tied their hands and laid them down on the living room floor. Eight-year-old Chris Fridella was ushered into the bathroom. Walton searched the house while Cooper and Royal guarded the captives. One of the captives was able to identify Walton, so, Walton pronounced that all three men must be shot. Walton commanded Cooper and Royal to open fire on the captive men when his own gun misfired. Upon leaving the house, Walton told Cooper that one of the men was still alive, at which time Cooper re-entered the house and shot Fridella again.
Either cocaine and marijuana are terribly dangerous substances, and breaking the law by consuming them is a major offense that should be severely punished, or these are minor, personal matters that do not really count in the big picture of a man's life. If the latter is the case, then the rationale for a bloody, costly and futile war against drugs simply disappears.
--Jorge G. Castaneda, Newsweek International, September 6, 1999
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http://www.flcourts.org/ (http://www.flcourts.org/)
excerpt:
"evidence was also introduced which revealed that Walton had abused drugs as an adolescent and teenager, and had been enrolled in a radical therapy program which likely left him severly emotionally scarred, but which had not halted his continued abuse of illegal drugs."
Someone please say something..I think I remember this guy.
When Plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in a society, they create for themselves in the course of time, a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.
--Fredric Bastiat
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Check it out, the hearing is available in streaming video.
http://www.wfsu.org/gavel2gavel/archives/02-08.html (http://www.wfsu.org/gavel2gavel/archives/02-08.html)
I'm not sure if they're talking about a head injury or psyche damage from the program. Izakowitz seems to be talking about psyche damage, and a very specific kind; that the girlfriend, who may have wanted her husband dead, dominated Walton. She's also the one who initially turned him in.
In order to live free and happily you must sacrifice boredom. It is not always an easy sacrifice.
-- Richard Bach
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The Court Opinion has not been determined or is unavailable in electronic format on Gavel To Gavel. You may also try to find this Court Opinion at the Supreme Court of Florida, at Florida Law Online or at the University of Florida College of Law Archive.
There's still time! Let's get ahole of this lawyer and see if we can help this guy.May 12-13: Sowed Hemp at Muddy hole by Swamp. August 7: Began to separate the Male from the Female at Do - rather too late.
George Washington (Diary)
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PAMELA H. IZAKOWITZ
Florida Bar No. 0053856
Capital Collateral Regional Counsel -
South
303 S. Westland Avenue
P.O. Box 3294
Tampa, FL 33601
(813) 259-4424Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.
-- John F. Kennedy (1917-63), U.S. Democratic politician, president. Speech, 13 March 1962, the White House.
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http://www.wfsu.org/gavel2gavel/briefs/ ... nisupp.pdf (http://www.wfsu.org/gavel2gavel/briefs/78070_inisupp.pdf)
I tried not to work for, you know, anyone who ate children with their bare hands. I won't pretend that I was ideologically consistent.
--Dick Morris; Political consultant for Bill Clinton, Trent Lott and Tom Ridge
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Why are you so intent on helping a murderer who was allegedly in the Seed? Regardless of whether or not he was in the Seed doesn't validate the taking of 3 lives? Is it because he was there and because you were there and you have such animosity towards the Seed? Murdering 3 people was his choice at that moment in time. I was there almost 30 years ago too, and I have never been inclined to kill anyone, much less 3 people in a home invasion - gangland style murder. To blame his poor life choices, on what was probably a very short period of time in his life (his time in the Seed) doesn't make any sense to me. He chose to murder 3 men and traumatize a child, now he must live, or die, because those are the consequences of his choices. We are all responsible for what we do as adults, poor choices and all. Those are the consequences of being a free thinking adult. To blame the Seed for his taking 3 lives is ludicrious. He is not my brethren, nor will he ever be.
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In 1982 knowing what we knew then when Jason Walton allegedly ordered the execution-style
murder of three adults, most of us would have agreed with you "Anonymous" that he was just a
fucking drug addict and murderer who deserved to die.
But we have learned an awful lot about the Straights since 1982. For instance, Straight-Springfield took a girl who had no drug problem and broke her finger while spitting on her and yelling to her that she was fat and ugly and not pretty like her sister. The purpose--try to get her to admit to being a druggie so they could continue to treat her and continue to be paid. Ultimately Straight released her admitting that drug dependency was not her primary problem. Later this woman took all her clothes off and plunged to her death mysteriously from her apartment window. A tatoo above her wrist read DISCIPLINE. Had the Straights killed her? Straight-Boston treated a 12 year old girl for sniffing a magic marker. Fred Collins was an honors engineering student at Virginia Tech who paid his brother a vist at Straight-St Pete and was falsely imprisoned by Straight-St Pete until he escaped.
We now know that a kid got out of Straigth-Dallas and beat his mother to death with a baseball bat. That a kid got out of Straight-Atlanta and shot a man dead during a drug deal. That a man got out of Straight-Springfield and went on a killing spree. He is now on death row in Pennsylvania. That a man got out of Straight-St Pete and, wielding a pipe, charged a police officer who shot him dead. That a man (who graduated and then became a counselor for Straight-Cincinnati) apparently beat his girl friend's daughter to death.
In 1982 most of us would have agreed with what we were being told that "these kids are fucking drug addicts, the scum of the earth." That Straight was doing the best it could to deal with the shit, meaning people it had been given to treat. But it was implicitly implied that in spite of Straight's gallant efforts some would continue to be rotten even after Straight and continue to rape, kill and sell dope.
We know that the Straights treat kids who have genuine drug problems; but we now also know that they treat kids who do not. A primary concern has been color (white) and money. And we know that Straight was abusive. It teaches kids violence and terror. And Straight robs people of their self esteem. Many former Straight clients have mental problems. Many have committed suicide or murder. So many in fact we are asking ourselves is Straight drivng peope to homicide, suicides and mental illness or is it just the clientelle it deals with to begin with.
One problem is where does The Seed end and Straight begin? There are more similarities between the two than differences, though one major difference was the ownership and management team. Yesterday I had never even heard Jason Walton, but it seems I have learned that Jason's mother placed him into The Seed because a neighbor who was in The Seed said Jason was using drugs. I've heard that story so many times before.
Many of us think it is possible for the Straights to take a pretty average white boy with little or no history of drug or alcohol use (meaning pot and/or beer) with no history of violence and turn him into a fucking drug addict--and possibly get him to kill himself or another.
The Seed was brought to Pinellas County by states attorney James T. Russell and and Russell failed to prosecute Straight. The judges sentenced kids to The Seed and to Straight, and now these same judges are trying to send one of them to his death.
None of us condone murder. But if society is going to legally execute somebody, then let us tell the courts ALL of the circumstances of this man's life. That's all we want to do.
Wes Fager
[ This Message was edited by: wesfager on 2003-07-06 10:17 ]
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anon, I am not "intent on helping a murderer". Rather, I am intent on learning all I can about this story.
I, Like jason Walton, spent my post seed years in despair. What drove him to such madness, and does he really deserve to be killed by the state?
I don't know yet, but the court seems to feel that the seed emotionally scarred him.
I am sick unto death of obscure English towns that exist seemingly for the sole accommodation of these so-called limerick writers -- and even sicker of their residents, all of whom suffer from physical deformities and spend their time dismembering relatives at fancy dress balls.
--Editor of the Limerick Times
(Limerick, Ireland)
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Am I the only one who was in the Seed who for the past 30 years has not agonized, berated, belittled, dispaired or beat myself up because of a short 9 month window in my life? If you met me today, you would never know that I didn't arrive where I am by the natural process of growth. I am who I have become because of the sum total of my life experiences, mistakes and successes during this process called life. To blame the Seed and that short window in time for everything that may or may not have gone wrong in my life would be ridiculous. We all make cognizant decisions in our lives, right, wrong or indifferent because we can - check out Adam and Eve. To blame time spent in the Seed as the reason for Jason Walton committing a mass murder is unthinkable to me. He chose his life path, he chose to commit a murder. During my time at the Seed, no one ever raised a hand in violence toward me, nor did I ever see any form of violence toward anyone else. No one was ever a proponent of violence during my time in the Seed. No back rooms, no spitting, no beatings, nothing, never an ounce of physical violence toward anyone. In my simple mind, to compare the Seed to Straight is like running along two parallel lines, that will never intersect. I've read the posts from both, and particularly in the Straight posts, each one is more outlandish than the one before. It's like group hysteria. I just don't buy it. The bottom line for me is, there is never an excuse for murder, never, regardless of someones circumstances or a short window of time spent at the Seed. (Read - A Boy Called It - for a take on changing ones life in the face of extreme agony.) I've spent too many years working for criminal and civil lawyers now to buy into the blame game routine. And as a proponent of the Death Penalty, it will be a good day in Florida when another murderer is gone and the state doesn't have to support him. Jason Walton made his choice, now he dies by the consequences.
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wow, I have not visited here in quite awhile.
::argue::
Nor do I feel the need to argue with anybody that feels that the Seed did not adversley affect their life.
I am a big believer in the "actions & consequences" concept of life. Ask my 19yr old, he will tell you!
That being said, I must let you know that I feel a great deal of empathy for this person, Walton and for the people that he helped to kill.
I do know that my life was changed drastically by my admittance to the Seed. No I do not use drugs nor drink. It marked my high school years with fear, insecurity, an inability to trust and intentional crueltry from my peers.
These things marked my progression as an adult. No, I am not an unlawful citizen. I have raised a wonderful son, who is now in New College of Florida and is a "straight" child. I still am shy, unable to trust others and keep very much to myself.
I believe you should look at yourself a bit more honestly. IE Take a moral Inventory and see exactly what might have become of you should you not have had the experiences that you did.
debi
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On 2003-07-06 04:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Why are you so intent on helping a murderer who was allegedly in the Seed?"
You should read the briefs. They're all online. The guy was sentanced to death as the mastermind of this crime with no mitigating circumstances. The co-defendants, including the actual shooter, all either got off or got lighter sentences. The appeal is not about letting him out or reversing the conviction. Just about properly adjusting the penalty to fit the actual crime.
Why do you seem so hell bent on letting this guy fry? There, but for the grace of God, goes you.
I told all four that there are going to be some times where we don't
agree with each other, but that's OK. If this were a dictatorship, it
would be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator.
--GW Büsh, CNN.com, December 18, 2000
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There you go again making assumptions that are incorrect, Mr. Anon.
First, Ginger is absolutely correct about one thing. Read the legal briefs. Walton was not the shooter. In typicaly bullshit fashion, the state made a deal with the shooter to testify aganst Walton in return for no death penalty. In other words, the shooters got life and Walton got death. Fair application of the death penalty? Not in my opinion.
Second, I have told you I know little about the case. I posted what I know so I could learn more. Do you have anything to offer in the way of information about Jason or about the case?
Read the title of this forum "THE SEED DISCUSSION FORUM". Jason Walton was in the Seed at the same time, same location as me. If we are to discuss the Seed, then this is a great topic.
third, you assertion there was no violence in the Seed is not supported by national publications, local newspapers, and eye witness accounts from the time period the Seed operated. Your assertion that violence wasn't supported by the staff negates the fact that we were threatened with having our parents come in if we didn't behave to "teach us a lesson" or thrown to the floor and piled on if we tried to leave. Your assertion that there were no back rooms is flat out bullshit, because they were there, behind the staff offices and I was sat in one for hours on end as was my sister and other people I know.I welcome you to come out from behind your Anon flag and review my research, but that probably won't happen. Just a percursory review of the St Pete Time article from 73-75 show accounts of kidnapping from public school grounds, beatings, etc. Remember the sexual humiliation "raps"? "You couldn't do it with a coke bottle", screamed at little girls 13 or so years old ring a bell? the humiliation of the young virgin boys? Perhaps you enjoyed this crap, but as a 14 year old pre pubescent boy, it deeply disturbed me.
Lastly, Jason Walton is likely quilty of what he did and belongs behind bars. This is no way distracts from the very interesting aspect of this case, that the court found he was emotionally scarred in the "experimental" Seed program. Whether you enjoy watching people executed or not, I find this story very compelling and right on topic.
BTW, Debbie, long time no hear! Welcome back.
Does anyone remember Jason? Does anyone remember the case?
Homeschool is self regulating. The school board is not going to have illiterate useless people living in their homes forever if they don't have a working education policy.
--Sisterbluerose
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Anon wrote:
"Am I the only one who was in the Seed who for the past 30 years has not agonized, berated, belittled, dispaired or beat myself up because of a short 9 month window in my life?"
I have written in the past that it is amazing how different people process the same experience. Anon, the Seed may have affected you little. For some people, the whole cultic aspect overtook their families and made them choose between freedom from the Seed and their families. This can be particularly devastating to a young person. Others do not process being held in captivity and berated in front of large groups well. Still others didn't take to being broke down and rebuilt in Art Barkers image as a good childhood experience, nor did they take to public ridicule and shame during tender teenage years.
You may have enjoyed these experience immensly, but the majority of those I have spoken to don't. Please don't discount the experiences of those that don't share your viewpoint, and I won't discount yours.
Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop off like autumn leaves. When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the Universe. -- My First Summer in the Sierra , 1911, page 110.
John Muir
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http://www.wfsu.org/gavel2gavel/briefs/ ... nisupp.pdf (http://www.wfsu.org/gavel2gavel/briefs/78070_inisupp.pdf)
Towards the back is a fairly accurate description of the Seed experience circa 1973.
This year will go down in history! For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!
Adolph Hitler
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In response to GregFL - Mr. Anon, can't come out of his cloak of anonymity, because he's a Woman. And further isn't that the point of anonymity!
I've read what you and others have posted about Jason Walton and read the transcript of the hearing and come to my own conclusions. After many years of working within the legal system, the Justices to me fortunately didn't seem to buy in the brain damage, damaged psyche or questionable intelligence routine that his lawyer put on the table. That's a typical criminal attorney routine in a capital case. How many times have the Justices heard that song and dance before, I'm sure too many to count. Or how about stating that Jason had inadequate counsel, isn't that a prerequisite in an appeal in a capital case? Just because Jason may have been in the Seed and been allegedly emotionally scarred or whatever by having been there, doesn't mitigate the fact that he was involved in a murder scheme, whether he was the shooter or not. And in typical laywer fashion, each lawyer is going to what he can to get his client off or to get a reduced sentence, turning one defendant against another, nothing new there, just the American Justice system hard at work. And what criminal has never said he wasn't at the scene of a crime or didn't commit the crime, none, they all allege innocence. If all the criminals are innocent, then why are there so many of them in jail? The Justices are correct, you cannot look back at a case and pick it apart with what you know now, but only with what was available then. Hindsight is always perfect, especially when you twist the facts to come to a new conclusion. Another great lawyer trick, make the outcome fit the circumstances. I feel great empathy for Jason's victims, I feel nothing for him. There is never an excusable excuse for murder, whatever the circumstances, regardless of his past. Jason made a choice to at the scene of a crime and to be involved with a crime, again, we all live by the consequences of our choices.
And I have read the articles written about the Seed by the St. Pete Times, I was born and raised there. That newspaper has always tended to be a little on the pink side and hasn't always published all the facts or truth, but their version of the facts or truth, but then again isn't that what liberal newspapers do?
In response to Debi, I don't look back at my past filled with angst over what might or might not have been, had I not been in the Seed. I wouldn't have become the adult I am now, because all aspects of my past, good, bad and indifferent and my time in the Seed as well, have helped shape me into the woman I am now. Most importantly to me, I would not have married the man I did and been married to him for 25 years and I would not have had my sons. Sure I could have hooked up with some other man and possibly have had some children, but I wouldn't have had the sons that I had. Sure I could have had a different life path, but again, I wouldn't have my husband or my sons. To wish a change in my past, would negate my present, something I'm not willing to do. My time in the Seed is a blip on what has become my radar screen of life.
As for Antigen, thank God we live in America where we are all free to believe and think as we want. Wouldn't it be a shame if we all had the same political leanings and thought processes. But for the grace of God go all of us!
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Good Post Anon. I agree with a lot of what you said.
Certainly in a capital defense trial, they are going to try everything. I read the transcripts also and lean toward what you are saying, that Jason is probably very quilty and cannot place the blame on the Seed. In fact, I do not think from the transcripts that is what they were doing, but instead trying to commute his sentence to life. However, I find the description of the Seed in the transcripts very accurate and understand that he may have been very affected by his experience there. I know many people were.
I do disagree with one thing. I don't think it is a fair application of the death sentence to sentence Jason to death when he wasn't the shooter and then give the shooter life. then again, I am not a staunch supporter of the death penalty. Then again, I feel no grief when some monster is put to death by the state....
As far as saying the St Pete times is "pink", that is about as week a rebuttal as there is. The seed was derided by not only the St Pete times, but national publications and the senate of the united states. Those things happened, Anon, and just because you managed to skate thru relatively unharmed doesn't negate the affect on others or change the facts. There were real people who bravely told their stories 30 years ago and many local St Pete juvenile mental health workers were very concerned about the Seed and then its replacement (the straight).
As far as the Seed being a mere blip on your life...good for you! I wish I was so lucky. I lost my family for years over the seed. At this stage of my life, 30 years later, discussing it with friends has become an interesting diversion, and exposing copycat programs has become a hobby of mine. I went years without even thinking about my experiences there and am now glad to have the time, the internet and this opportunity to discuss my childhood with people who where there and understand. And the best part is it only takes a small amount of time and effort.
Isn't the internet great???
BTW, Do I know you? Email me at [email protected] and let me know who you are. I promise to keep it between you and me.
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2003-07-09 06:42 ]
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On 2003-07-09 04:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The Justices are correct, you cannot look back at a case and pick it apart with what you know now, but only with what was available then.
...
As for Antigen, thank God we live in America where we are all free to believe and think as we want. Wouldn't it be a shame if we all had the same political leanings and thought processes. But for the grace of God go all of us! "
Then how is it that people convicted of rape and murder years ago are so frequently being freed on the basis of DNA evidence these days?
And why do you seem so hell bent on seeing this guy fry? Granted, I didn't go out and kill anyone after the program. I did, however, slip right into the kind of romantic relationship described by this atty. No matter what the guy did to me, I worshiped him. No matter what he asked, I'd do. If he'd have been the type to want to off an ex-wife, I might well have helped him. As a matter of fact, he did once try to strangle a friend of mine on the livingroom floor. I just stood there, frozen, unable to move or think.
I'm glad you were able to shake it all off like nothing ever happened. I did too, it just took me awhile to regain my balance. Though I have just about everything I ever wanted now, including the lack of just enough to keep me interested in the game, I do often wonder what might have been had I been. But that's not my entire interest in this case.
I know, to a dead certainty, that the Program does effect a LOT of people in profound and long-term ways. The way I see it, it's like witch dunking. Right now, everyone believes it's valid, proper and necessary. I and a few other people disagree. If we've found a case where the courts acknowledge that the Program might not be entirely benign, that might help us to make people generally understand that so they won't put their kids in the Program or allow public funding to go to the Program in any form.
Life is like a bird, at any given moment it is droping a load. It is only a matter of time before one eventually find you.
That newspaper has always tended to be a little on the pink side and hasn't always published all the facts or truth, but their version of the facts or truth, but then again isn't that what liberal newspapers do?
Depends on what you mean by 'liberal', I suppose. A conservative publication; i.e. one that is careful, scrupulous and not prone to jump to confusions would tend not to do that. However, left wing AND right wing news outfits (as in Faux News) do it all the time.
SysAdmin
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Great post Ginger. Whether Jason deserves to die by state execution is open to debate, but the fact that thirty years later the court describes to a tee the program experience and acknowledges it mentally scarred this man is very compelling. In fact, it may lead to his sentence being commuted to life. I hope it does, and this in no way endorses or justifys the murder of those people.
The right of self-defense is the first law of nature; in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest possible limits. ... and [when] the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction.
-- St. George Tucker, Judge of the Virginia Supreme Court 1803
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Antigen, the answer to your question is in your question - DNA evidence. I don't disagree that that is how and why people are released today for old rapes and murders. In this case though, Jason and his accomplices have confessed to their involvement with this murder. What would DNA evidence prove? He confessed to his involvement in the crime. There have been no allegations that he wasn't at the scene of the crime, just the level of his actual involvement in the murder of several innocent people.
The Justices asked Jason's attorney for medical evidence to prove that there was something wrong with his brain? She did not have the medical evidence, psychiatric or neurologic, to support her contention. Sure, she could pay a hack to come in and testify that there obviously has to be something wrong with his brain because he was in the Seed 30 years ago, thereby causing him to be emotionally traumatized, which then caused him to commit the crime.
Her conclusion necessarily means then that each of us that was in the Seed is emotionally traumatized and therefore prone to commit a crime of such heinous nature, simply because we were in the Seed. Further, her conclusion means that all of us that were in the Seed necessarily have to have something wrong with our brains simply because we were there. The medical facts in this case don't support her conclusion.
On a personal level, I don't appreciate being brought into the fray and accused of necessarily being unstable and emotionally deranged, based on the fact that I was in the Seed 30 years ago. By her conclusion, she judges all of us to be an emotional void.
She is merely attempting to justify Jason's actions and deflect attention from the real issue, the murder of innocent people.
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You said earlier that, under no circumstances, does new evidence ever enter into an appeal. Well, in most of these murder and rape cases, the tech to produce DNA evidence wasn't broadly available at the time of the trial. It's new evidence that didn't exist, but IS relavent. Also, in many, many of these cases, the defendants plead guilty. Many people have a hard time understanding why anyone would ever plead guilty to a crime they didn't commit. And prosecutors exploit this naïveté shamelessly.
But most Program vets understand very well, because we were pretty easily coerced into confessing all sorts of things we'd never done.
I, myself, signed myself into Straight because Miller Newton told me he'd get a judge to court order me for 2 years if I didn't. I knew I hadn't committed any crime, was not a danger to myself or anyone else and was not an addict. But I knew just as well that the Program could get a judge to sign an death warrant on the Pope in those days if they'd wanted to.
A confession under duress means nothing, and I you know that damned well!
At the time of his conviction, he had not been in the Seed 30 years prior. He was just out of the place for a couple of years and he was aparently up to his nads in just exactly the kind of controling, obsessive relationship that so many program vets had sought out after the Program. You should take a little time and read through some of these forums. Lots of us, most of us, had a rough time emotionally and psychologically for awhile after the Program. Not that we all went out and murdered people. But a good many of us were so used to being controled by others that we were apt to hook up with an abusive, domineering romantic interest.
Walton's sister described him as acting like a robot after the Program. Are you going to try and tell me that you've never heard of Seedlings being described that way before? Does that pass the giggle test? No, I don't think that it does. So the more sensible conclusion seems to be that there WAS (is) something about the Program that effects a lot of people, rather than that this one person was just primally flawed and would have done everything just as he did had he not spent some months, with his little brother and parents, in that highly violent and abusive cult.
Finally, I agree that we should all be skeptical of any attorney trying to make a case. I understand why this atty is trying to make the case that she is for her client. But what's you gig?
Wherever the standard of freedom and Independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will [America's] heart, her benedictions and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own.
--John Quincy Adams, Speech to the U.S. House of Representatives [July 4, 1821]
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No gig, just 25 years working in the legal system. I know the police lie. I know the attorneys lie. I know the plaintiffs and the defendants lie. I know their friends and family lie. I know their witnesses and experts lie. I know the attorneys are representing people they know and believe to be as guilty as the day is long, but yet they are duty bound to provide them with the best legal help available, which again means more lying. I've spent 25 years knowing that there is no place for emotion in the legal field, even though it is an emotionally charged environment. I've spent 25 years picking apart words and sentences. And I've spent 25 years watching people lie, all the while knowing they were, while they were trying to convince me they weren't. I've spent 25 years in the legal profession knowing that all sides lie to advocate their position.
I've spent 25 years knowing that the legal field is a professional blame game. I know that someone or something can or has to be blamed for every real or perceived wrong, because no one is accountable for his or her own actions, not when there is blame to be placed elsewhere, again more lying.
I spent too many years working in the criminal system, to honestly believe most criminals who deny their invovlement in a crime. I've worked on murder cases where the defendants were caught in the act and yet they denied their very involvement. They were quick to blame someone, something, anything to avoid paying the price for their crime. And when that tactic didn't work, they attempted to shift the focus, including finding religion, as if finding religion after the fact somehow made it all better and somehow less wrong to have committed that crime.
After this many years, I am disinclined to believe much of what a criminal defendant has to say, but I will give them more credence if they have the proof and the evidence to back up what they are alleging. But an allegation of a wrongdoing, is just that an allegation. It is not proof or evidence and standing alone it cannot be supported.
So for me it's very straight forward, proof and evidence, with my emotions checked at the door. As I read it, this guy is guilty as charged, regardless of the crap his attorney has thrown out for us to trip on. She didn't come up with the proof or the evidence to support her allegations and change my mind, nor apparently the minds of the Justices.
As an aside I was in the Seed in St. Pete in l974, making me a "Program Vet". Our differences are striking and obvious. This ocean of waves we call life is truly wonderous, with each wave being so different, some easy to ride and some not, and others that are just breathtaking. I wonder what the next group of waves will be like and where they are going?
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Ok, let me try and explain my interest in this a little bit better.
Remember the things Art used to day? Remember the claimed 90% success rate? Remember the grand projectsions about how the whole un-seedling world was going to hell in a handbasket, and only the Seedlings would survive and be sane, forthright, responsible and functional? Yeah, I know, I didn't buy it either. But some people did.
And some of those who bought it, hookm line and sinker, are almost unimaginably well connected. And they're making public policy to force children and adults into their wonder-treatment.
They don't call it The Seed anymore. They don't even call it Straight anymore. They call it the "Teen Help" industry or the "Personal Growth" industry. Instead of having group members go out and kidnap escapees and new inductees, they'll refer parents to professional 'escorts', who will drug, shackle and abduct their children from wherever they can be found and deliver them to a program.
Now, if you believed Art, you'd expect that a little research into what ever happened to all those Seedlings would turn up sucess story after success story just like yours. Greg's not doing too badly, either. And I have one brother (out of three) who just went to work for the post office, raised his kid, divorced, remarried and still, as far as I know, works for the post office. No problems, no stellar accomplishments. Just living, loving and enjoying every minute of the ride.
But that's not what happens when you go looking up old Seedlings you may have known. Instead, we find tragic story after tragic story, with a few success stories thrown in. Walton is more the rule than the exception.
The people who are publicly funding and mandating this form of treatment and the people who contribute to their political campaigns and who vote for them need to know to what they're giving their unquestioning support. If the truth comes out about this industry, it'll dry up. No one would support it on its merits.
No drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of society. If we're looking for the sources of our troubles, we shouldn't test people for drugs, we should test them for stupidity, ignorance, greed and love of power.
P. J. O'Rourke
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On 2003-07-06 13:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
During my time at the Seed, no one ever raised a hand in violence toward me, nor did I ever see any form of violence toward anyone else. No one was ever a proponent of violence during my time in the Seed. No back rooms, no spitting, no beatings, nothing, never an ounce of physical violence toward anyone. In my simple mind, to compare the Seed to Straight is like running along two parallel lines, that will never intersect. I've read the posts from both, and particularly in the Straight posts, each one is more outlandish than the one before. It's like group hysteria. I just don't buy it.
What an interesting post. Never saw anyone try to escape and thrown to the floor? Never witnessed a kid poked hard in the back for slouching? Never heard the stories ( I was there) of parents called in to beat their kids in front of staff? Never seen a "troublmaker" sent home with the biggest baddest kids and threatened to go ahead and try to escape? Never witnessed Arthur or some other 20 year old staffer get in the face of a misbehavior and scream and spit?
I also suppose you know nothing about the Cleveland Seed and the Boxing ring, where little tiny 14 year old behavior problems were forced to fight older stronger kids? I suppose you haven't read fuelaws ( a successfull florida lawyer) post about being beaten by a Ft Lauderdale staffer when he was about 110 pounds and 14 years old?
Where were you? Disney Land?
Then you have the stones to say you don't believe the abuse reports coming from straight. I will quote one in my possession from the Florida Protective Servicdes system for you.
ABUSE REPORT
"on 67/20/89 officer Holmes with the PPPD....did interview the victim. THere were visible bruising, on the shoulders and a fresh black and blue 6 to 8" bruise in the lower lumbar area. This was the result of his not responding to several cues to sit up properly".
Now, you may wonder where the Straight learned this technique, to poke and "put their arms around" those that let their back touch the back of their chair, but then perhaps you have closed that section of your brain.
well, they learned it from those seed graduates that became the first Straight staff members. I got poked and prodded plenty when I was there, then, under the influence of cultic mind control, did my share of same to others. I am not proud of this, but it is the fact.
Where were you again?
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Where was I? I was in the St. Pete branch of the Seed from October l974 to July l975. If you re-read what you chose to quote from me, I was speaking in the lst person. I was talking about what I witnessed during my time in the Seed. Seems pretty obvious to me then, that I can have no personal first hand knowledge about any of the other things you mentioned, because I was not at those places and never witnessed any of those things happen. It goes back to the fact that I was speaking about what I witnessed during my time in the Seed. Additionally, I can have absolutely no knowledge of what it was like for the guys, because I was sitting on the other side of the aisle. I was never "poked", but "tapped" on the shoulder too many times to count, and after while even that stopped (I spent 4 months on the front row, and after awhile I was left alone). Now I firmly believe, that as it relates to myself, there were more than a few of the staff members and several oldcomers, who would have liked to have layed hands on me, and not in a spiritual ritualistic healing manner, but I wasn't. I was never touched, and I never saw anyone else get touched. I also have a memory that at some point it was decided that if someone was going to leave, then to let them go, and from then on no one was chased, and I only saw that happen twice and that was in the beginning. I was, however, physically and verbally attacked in school, long after the Seed had closed, and that was at the hands of 3 former Seed kids (I say former, because they had left the program mid-way - and one of them had been a former oldcomer). The just reward in that is, that the students that were around at the time of the attack turned on them, they all 3 dropped out immediately, and I was never bothered or harassed by anyone again in high school.
As for Straight, I shouldn't have commented, I have no first hand knowledge, and for that I apologize.
As for the Seed, I will not apologize, those are my memories, I don't any gapping holes in my memory and I did not spend 9 months at Disney Land.
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Anon, I think the Seed meant many things to many people, and also the time frame of incarceration mattered. I personally was there at the very beginning and group veried in size from 600 to 1000 kids. I also understand that at the end the group had fizzled out somewhat and the staff had changed.
No matter whether you personally witnessed violence tho, Being locked up in thought reform at 16 had to shape and affect your life. If you are able to take some positive memory from it, then that is probably a good thing for you. I have written before that it amazes me that two people can go thru the same journey and come out with vastly different experiences. Your experience and opinion, Anon, is just a valid as anyone elses. It is good, however, that you keep an open mind and avoid comments like violence never occured at the seed. It is well documented.
Any policy that has Ted Byfield on the same side as many Rastafarians can fairly be said to have generated a consensus.
-- Ottawa Citizen August 28, 1997
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I remember when I was a little kid and my brothers were in The Seed. This had to be from 1970 to maybe 1974 at the latest. The Seed was everywhere! Seedlings in the schools, Seed headlines in the papers. And, in my house, Seed language and routines ruled the day. We even sang Seed songs sometimes.
In those days, Seedlings used to go out and kidnap olddruggiefriends, brow beat them awhile till they confessed to a drug problem, then call the parents and start working on them. Can you even imagine getting that call? Maybe you thought your kid was at the beach or maybe you'd already started looking for them. Then you get this call from The Seed saying your kid is there and has asked to be treated for addiction.
Well that stopped after some legal moves and threats. Little by little, various people applied various kinds of pressure till NIDA, acting on strong recomendation of the U.S. Senate, put in place a requirement for consent forms signed by clients and guardians stating informed consent to dangerous, experimental treatment.
That was the straw that broke the megalomaniac's boom. Though The Seed continued to operate on a small scale and the core, inner circle cult is still together after all these years, they had not been the force to be reckoned with in So. Florida that they had been in their hay day.
Anon, it seems to me that the essential elements of the Program that made them strong were exactly the elements that made it so abusive. Take away the more abusive aspects of the Program and it loses necessary cohesion.
I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard was not what I meant.
---Richard Nixon