Fornits

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An open discussion about the troubled parent industry

Quote from: "Samara"

It's not the root of all evil. If not money, something else.  But currency is here to stay so no point in belaboring the issue or dreaming of a Walden Utopia unless you are ready, able, and willing to live it.

Well maybe not all, but most...

I will state here with certainty, taht money is the root of no evil at all, now or ever, and anyone who says otherwise, does not believe that people are responsible for their own actions.  Such a person would have to believe that a piece of paper has magical powers of negativity over human beings.  

And it will most certainly NOT be here to stay if it becomes worthless enough to the people.

Was that statement really worth writing?  No > I suppose thta it would NOT be here to stay IF it becomes worthless enough to people.

Eventually, people will create their own currency, or turn to other means of trade that does not involve "THEM."

How do you know?

There is no Walden utopia, or utopia of any kind possible given the circumstances we face as a global society today. Most people don't know survival from a hole in the ground. Most people would die off. Much death and chaos would ensue; so you are absolutely right, there...

The system is collapsing though. No denying that!

This guy has some amazing insight about the world economy:

http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo ... __part_1_/
http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo ... __part_2_/

I went to the website and found that this video was in a playlist along with videos of real-life mermaids, bigfoot, aliens, and others things of the sort.

Eventually all things crumble; in the end, all is known.

Nah.. All is never known.  There's always more out there for those with the spirit to go after it.

Nothing new under the sun.

Nothing new under the sun- That sounds really fucking boring

Paul

Quote

We know you email each other ape jokes and watermelon jokes and other racist Ku Klux Klan fucking bullshit–just what, three years?–

Cain is one of the most desired presidential candidates amonst tea-partiers.

As absolutely insane as this might sound to the ignorant so quick to scream ignorance, that is based on his ideas, and get this.. hold on to your seats.. NOT HIS FUCKING SKIN COLOR!

That's right!  You heard it here first!  It is actually possible to judge people on their merits!!!  And believe it or not.... (drum roll please), some people actually do it!    

Paul

We know you want to end taxation. We know you don’t care that every reputable economist on the goddamned fucking planet has tried to explain to you inbred sisterfuckers that austerity budgets and tax breaks for billionaires and transnational corporations makes joblessness worse, not better. It makes the recession worse, not better. It makes the deficit worse, not better.

Can you name a few of those Reputable economists?  

I can name a few who would disagree, literally off the top of my head- Henry Hazlitt, Thomas Sowell, Milton Friedman, Freideric Von Hayek.  And we might as well include Adam Smith- creator of the American economic system, more or less.

Quote from: "Paul St. John"

starry-eyed pirate wrote:
[
Paul St. John wrote:
quote="starry-eyed pirate"]Well...le's see...I don't know anyone who leads a just and moral life. If you drive a car, and import your food and other goods, like tools and clothes and furniture from halfway around the world you're not living justly.


That's some statement alright. Care to explain why? I would say that If halfway around the world goods are being produced by people willing to part with them at a better price, giving your business to them is the JUST thing to do. The person who would go this direction of trading with those across the world has a just mind, and yet at the same time, justice in the truest sense cannot be even applied to this situation, because who you choose to trade you with, and what things you choose to purchase, and do with your earned money is your business! That is justice.


So let me get this straight, cause I can't believe you really mean what you wrote here.



What you are telling me is that Justice has no place in peoples private business

What I wrote, is that justice does not pertain to whom you buy your goods from, as it is your choice. One of the primary functions of justice is to uphold and protect people's right to use and dispense of their own goods and earned wealth as they see fit. For example. I would disagree with a person who refuses to do business with others based on their ethnic background, but at the same time, no one has the right to force him/her to.

Justice is not relative.  It is an absolute and is not merely limited to the exchange of goods and services between 2 parties as they "see fit" but is also concerned with the effect of said business deal on the world as a whole.

Yes.. I know.. Justice is justice.  It is very hard, however, to measure the effect of any exchange on the entire world.

Here is an example.  There is no doubt that there are chemicals put in our food, and as well, things left out of the food, that make them less healthy.  Such things probably cause an extremely slight increase in the chances of those who consume them getting cancer, and other diseases.  All other things being the same, consuming these ingredients, may slightly reduce a person's life span.  However, the use of these chemicals, greatly increase convenience, and reduce the price.  Many people, if they knew, all the possible risks, and had all the facts laid out, right in front of them, would still choose processed foods.  That means more choice- more options for more people.  I would say that that makes the world better as a whole, because it increases choice. You would probably say that it hurts the world.

Organic food is available for those who want it, but for those who would like to trade a drop of health or a take a risk of increasing the possibility of getting a disease, for convenience, expedience, and value, they have that choice.  I love choice.  I think that choice is great, and that the more choice, the better the world for all.  Possibly, a person will put the money and time that they save through the purchasing of all non-organics foods, into other healthful activities, that are more to their liking, or which they believe to be of greater benefit.

Paul St. John

My time is seriously limited, so I can probably only take on a few of these today, but I will take them in order, starting here.  [/u]

[

Quote from: "Paul St. John"

quote="starry-eyed pirate"]Well...le's see...I don't know anyone who leads a just and moral life.  If you drive a car, and import your food and other goods, like tools and  clothes and furniture from halfway around the world you're not living justly.

 

That's some statement alright.  Care to explain why?  I would say that If halfway around the world goods are being produced by people willing to part with them at a better price, giving your business to them is the JUST thing to do.  The person who would go this direction of trading with those across the world has a just mind, and yet at the same time, justice in the truest sense cannot be even applied to this situation, because who you choose to trade you with, and what things you choose to purchase, and do with your earned money is your business! That is justice.

So let me get this straight, cause I can't believe you really mean what you wrote here.



  What you are telling me is that Justice has no place in peoples private business

What I wrote, is that justice does not pertain to whom you buy your goods from, as it is your choice.  One of the primary functions of justice is to uphold and protect people's right to use and dispense of their own goods and earned wealth as they see fit.  For example. I would disagree with a person who refuses to do business with others based on their ethnic background, but at the same time, no one has the right to force him/her to.

and that where there is money, there should not be justice

We can really save me a lot of time, if you actually read what I write. You d save your time as well, if it concerns you.

 and yet somehow you are also telling me that Justice is concerned with getting the best price for goods or services,

Well, only, insofar as a person whose mentality is founded in the concept of justice, would only be concerned with these issues, rather any other arbitrary concern, such as whether or not someone is across the seas.  (nationalism)

[/u]
regardless of the acidification of our oceans,
 and the burning and clearing of the worlds rain forests, the degradation of air quality, or the toxification of the water table, the eradication of indigenous, sustainable cultures, and unique animal/plant species, etc.  Is that what you mean to convey ??  I hope not.[/quote]

[i]Most of these things are WAY overstated by pseudo-scientists, and others who just do not know what they are talking ab out.  As to the extent, to which there is some truth, progress always has issues along the way, and the only people who don t notice that are the people who do not do anything.  We are always finding better ways to do things.  It is very hard to be perfect all the time.. Of course, if you do absolutely nothing at all, yuo will make no mistakes, and it is very easy to critique those who do.   the one specific thing I would actually like to address is about the sustainable, indigenous cultures.  No one has killed them or anything, and it could be taken that way, the way you put it.

But all in all, I am not going to lie, I care more about people then about rain forests, oceans, or plant species. [/i]


Paul[/b][/quote]

Quote from: "starry-eyed pirate"

In fact, if that is the case, then you are stealing the worlds health and robbing future generations of their chance to lead a good and healthy life.

I'm sorry man.. Seriously, but you have so much to learn. It is hard to believe how little you understand about how things really work. You really should learn more. These ideas are so entirely incorrect. You aren't stealing the world's wealth.. LMAO! Quite the opposite, you are building their economies and helping them live a higher quality of life. Go to India, and ask those how we outsource to how grateful they are for the opportunity. They and their families, including extended are living longer, higher quality lives, then they ever could ve dreamed for in their youth.

Yeah, I'm learning more all the time...the American economy expands by force.  It's an imperial force.  If you can't see that in Iraq you're just not looking.  The vast majority of foreign countries host U.S military bases.  The 5th phase, over glorified Haliburton employees are there to enforce the program on the newcomers.  And domestically our corporately whored out governments policy is one of national brainwash on the youth.  I was in $tr8 Inc for 2 years.  The western market economy nurtures the culture of the ego in order to sustain itself.

What is a "culture of the ego"?

  If you understand this, then you know how hard it is to be a saint in the city.  The money cult appeals to the ego, and as always the easiest and most sure-fire way to manipulate anyone is through their ego.

That is the opposite of true.  The easiest way to manipulate someone is by subverting the ego.. That is precisely what is done in Straights and similar programs.. They break down your ego.  They try to convince you that your ego is false, so that you turn agianst it.  Look up 'ego' in the dictionary, because it is possible that you and I are going on different definitions here.
  Just because the p

eople in India are saying that they are happier then they were before the western economy stole it's way into their lives doesn't mean they aren't violating the rights of their neighbors, in order to achieve it...and when you say "building their economies"...the process you are really describing is the exploitation of the natural resources of some American slave colony, where ever they may be in the world.  You don't get something for nothing in this world.

Bro, you are fucking crazy.. I mean, really.  No one forced anything into them.  they want it.  They train for it, and give everything they got to get their positions.   But you are right about one thing.  They do not get it for nothing.  They work very, very, hard, and compete for these positions.  


Perhaps those folks in places like India and Indonesia, who are relieved to have established themselves in the western market economy are simply being pushed into it, and like some kid sitting on front row, the first week, are relieved to take the pressure off themselves when they sell out and begin to motivate and go along with the program, motivating and singing the required songs in order to be socially acceptable and attain some physical comfort.[/quote]

[i]Like I said, start learning some stuff.  You have replaced thoughts with propaganda. You mentioned being a saint in a city.  Something tells me, you do not spend much time in cities..

Paul[/i]

Well...le's see...I don't know anyone who leads a just and moral life.  If you drive a car, and import your food and other goods, like tools and  clothes and furniture from halfway around the world you're not living justly.  

That's some statement alright.  Care to explain why?  I would say that If halfway around the world goods are being produced by people willing to part with them at a better price, giving your business to them is the JUST thing to do.  The person who would go this direction of trading with those across the world has a just mind, and yet at the same time, justice in the truest sense cannot be even applied to this situation, because who you choose to trade you with, and what things you choose to purchase, and do with your earned money is your business! That is justice.

In fact, if that is the case, then you are stealing the worlds health and robbing future generations of their chance to lead a good and healthy life.

I'm sorry man.. Seriously, but you have so much to learn.  It is hard to believe how little you understand about how things really work.  You really should learn more.  These ideas are so entirely incorrect.  You aren't stealing the world's wealth.. LMAO!  Quite the opposite, you are building their economies and helping them live a higher quality of life.  Go to India, and ask those how we outsource to how grateful they are for the opportunity.  They and their families, including extended are living longer, higher quality lives, then they ever could ve dreamed for in their youth.

 I have a good friend who once told me, "Justice is not using anybody for anything, ever, period ".

This could be taken more then one way, so I'm not gonna respond. I have some silly friends though, too.

   In other words, justice has no ego.  The moral and the just are mostly invisible people, few and far between.  I don't know a whole lot about the Amish, though I nearly finished a book about their history once.

I've studied them  a bit.  I have no quarrel with their ways, but I would not attempt to impose it on others.  Actually, one of the coolest things, I think, about their culture, is that they actually let the teens leave, and go into the outside world for a bit, once they reach a certain.  They are allowed to abandon every Amish rule, for a time period, and then they get the opportunity to choose which ways they will embrace.  It's kinda fucked up , taht if the youths choose the outside, their family disowns them, but at least they give them a choice.  

 It seems to me though, that they do a pretty good job of living sustainably on the Earth.  They don't use electricity and they don't drive cars(although they take rides) and they grow most of their own food.  I know that they have some participation in the economy but I think it's minimal and I suggest that an Amish way of life or something akin to it, is the answer, sans religion.

What we have now is corporate feudalism.

What we have now is whatever you want.  You want to be a corporate serf, you can be.  But to tell others that they have no choice is incorrect and to be honest, just a plain old downer.

 The schools main purposes are not true education, but social conditioning.  Students learn the skills that will enable them to become part of the corporate power structure, instead of how to truly support themselves.  They learn dependence not independence.



 Where are the schools that teach gardening and farming, leather work, metal smithing, hunting and fishing, and tailoring and carpentry, in addition to the 3 "R"s.

They are called trade schools, and if you need to find them, look around.  Usually though, these things are taught through an apprentice type environment. ( on the job) because there just isn t enough people who get excited about these fields and are interested in them to fill schools, and make them profitable.. - supply/demand

  The schools homogenize the population and make the people dependent on the economy and therefore submissive and

 easy to control.  

Dependent on the economy?  You talk about the economy as is it is some big monster.  Economies are amoral. No matter where go.  No matter what you do, there will be some form of economy.  

I didn't mean to give the impression that I was proud of my hypocrisy, In fact I'm ashamed, but my shame doesn't prevent my honesty or my search for answers.  

I think that most Americans, if they're honest with themselves, will realize that they frequently trade justice for convenience.

I would probably agree with your statement here, in regards to many people, but just they we arrive at the idea, for entirely different reasons, I would guess.

I think the idea that one has to be free of hypocrisy in order to point out an injustice is just silly and immature and frankly egotistical.

I am not sure why I am being accused of assuming all the liberties of immorality, hypocrisy and injustice.

Very simple.  You can say whatever you want, because MAYBE you are immoral, unfair, and unjust.  You are not bound to be honest, or even consistent, because even if you are, I should focus on your argument.

However, you didn t come out and say.  Look man.. let's get this shit out of the way.. I am an immoral person.  I am a hypocrite. I am unjust.  AKA  I am not good.  I am a bad person.  I am an unfair person.... But look, I m still right about this one thing..

Because then you know that people will not trust you.  

 You think I'm some kind of a nihilist or something ??  Far from it. My life is a work in progress and I do my best to live a conscientious life or as you put it, Samara, to live fair and just regardless of the matrix.

Personally, I think you re probably a pretty good guy, who hold himself to ridiculous ideals.

For what it s worth, if anything.  I could be wrong too, but more often then not, I m right about this shit.


Paul

[/b]

Quote from: "Paul St. John"

Quote from: "starry-eyed pirate"

Quote from: "Paul St. John"

heh.. No.. Not an attack on you personally..

...uhh...yes it is.  Separate the argument from it's source.

LOL!  uhhh.. No.. It wasn't.. It was a question.  You opened the door to it.  You said something without actually saying it, which is a very safe place to be.. You get to assume all the liberties of being immoral, hypocritical, and unjust, but none of the responsibilities.. I was trying to get you to say what you are saying, and to get you to face it yourself.. I could argue with you for the mere sake of arguing with you 'til the end of the world, but such things never breed results, in my experience, and amount to mental masturbation..

Paul

Well, you're being very general.  I don't really know what you mean by all that,

If you would like to understand it, perhaps, you should read it again.. I think I have spelled it out pretty clear, and you seem more then intelligent enough to understand it if you try.


 but thank you for getting me to face what I already know and ...yeah, thanks for that :roflmao:

Am I to understand then, that you live a just and moral life and are not a hypocrite ??

I strive to.  If held under a microscope, you would find numerous imperfections in me.  I am, of course, not perfect, but I think that you can make a generalization in this regard.  There are many people whom I would refer to as just, moral, and having integrity( the opposite of hypocrite).  I know that none of these perfect, but I would still say that.. If nothing else, it is true in relative terms, and understand by most what you are saying... Just the same as I will call Hitler, an evil man, even though he was very intelligent, and I consider intelligence to be a virtuous quality.

I would say Alex Rodriguez is a great baseball player, even though he has more then his fair share of strike-outs.  warren Buffet is a great business man/ investor, in spite of the fact that he has made some bad ones.


As far as me, I do not steal, ever, under any circumstances.  I do not physically assault others. In all situations, I try to do what I think is right, even when there is apparent reward to do the wrong thing, and unjust punishment for doing the right the right thing.  I question myself frequently and my own principles.. Perhaps, most importantly, I am always striving to be moral, just, and act with integrity.  I do my very best to.. I consider very difficult- sometimes, excrutiatingly so, but all the same, it constant intention in me, and I hold it as a ver high value.  I would like to think that that allows me to fit within that general category, even though, I am very far from perfect.

Paul  

Quote from: "Paul St. John"

heh.. No.. Not an attack on you personally..

...uhh...yes it is.  Separate the argument from it's source.

LOL!  uhhh.. No.. It wasn't.. It was a question.  You opened the door to it.  You said something without actually saying it, which is a very safe place to be.. You get to assume all the liberties of being immoral, hypocritical, and unjust, but none of the responsibilities.. I was trying to get you to say what you are saying, and to get you to face it yourself.. I could argue with you for the mere sake of arguing with you 'til the end of the world, but such things never breed results, in my experience, and amount to mental masturbation..

Paul