Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Aspen Education Group => Brat Camp => Topic started by: Anonymous on August 04, 2005, 01:42:00 AM
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August 3,2005
http://www.teenadvocatesusa.org/BratCampTeens.html (http://www.teenadvocatesusa.org/BratCampTeens.html)
Barbe
TAUSA
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Wow, so much for their long term success rate!
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he should've gone on to a therapy boarding school, clearly.
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On 2005-08-04 06:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"he should've gone on to a therapy boarding school, clearly."
Why?
Ever heard of natural consequences?
This kid is going to learn better from the school of hard knocks (justice system) than an expensive boarding school (AKA PRIVATE PRISON).
I could tell from watching the show this kid was not going to benefit from abuse in the wild.
He has a strong personality, Sage Walk couldn't break him with their stupid rite-of-passage b.s.
The threat of doing time in jail is what is going to turn this kid around ... just like the old days before parent funded prisons became the latest fad.
:smokin:
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I was under the impression that newspapers didnt print the names of teenage offenders. Something about privacy rights?
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I think he's 18 now...so he'll be treated as an adult.
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The article, if you'd bothered to read it stated:
WINTON - The 17-year-old boy
He is home now and awaiting a juvenile court date.
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On 2005-08-04 07:08:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-08-04 06:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"he should've gone on to a therapy boarding school, clearly."
Why?
Ever heard of natural consequences?
This kid is going to learn better from the school of hard knocks (justice system) than an expensive boarding school (AKA PRIVATE PRISON).
I could tell from watching the show this kid was not going to benefit from abuse in the wild.
He has a strong personality, Sage Walk couldn't break him with their stupid rite-of-passage b.s.
The threat of doing time in jail is what is going to turn this kid around ... just like the old days before parent funded prisons became the latest fad.
:smokin:
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Can you say recidivist? How about sociopath?
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On 2005-08-04 09:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-08-04 07:08:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-08-04 06:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"he should've gone on to a therapy boarding school, clearly."
Why?
Ever heard of natural consequences?
This kid is going to learn better from the school of hard knocks (justice system) than an expensive boarding school (AKA PRIVATE PRISON).
I could tell from watching the show this kid was not going to benefit from abuse in the wild.
He has a strong personality, Sage Walk couldn't break him with their stupid rite-of-passage b.s.
The threat of doing time in jail is what is going to turn this kid around ... just like the old days before parent funded prisons became the latest fad.
:smokin:
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Can you say recidivist? How about sociopath?"
The kind of help this kid needs is one-on-one therapy (anger management) not some lame wilderness therapy camp.
Ideally, a MENTOR would be great ... someone this kid can look up to and will listen to.
Hate crimes are horrible. This kid best get over himself and learn to share their planet with his brothers and sisters.
Jail time MAY be the lynch pin to turn this kid away from gang/hate filled crap.
:smokin:
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If it doesnt instill more hate in him since youd be hard pressed to find a place where race lines are drawn more rigidly. The military would probably do him a world of good. And hed get money for school. And hed get a pension adjusted for inflation.
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Brat Camps Web site describes the boy as an,angry punk rocker who smokes, drinks and has an obsession with fire.
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LOL ... so they teach the kid to make fire with sticks? Real Smart.
Second, this is the same kid who looked into the camera and said if parents were planning to send their kid to a place like Sage Walk, FU! (not his exact words but it was somewhere in that range).
Obviously this is a kid who is strong-willed. Jail would NOT be good for him ... BUT it's one of the most EFFECTIVE ways to turn a kid around. I mean, jail sucks 10 times more than wilderness camp ... or, maybe not?
Either way he's got a lot of maturing to do and that ain't ever gonna get done in a 60 day wilderness program.
MENTORING IS THE BEST SOLUTION plus anger management.
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Who is this guy again? Is this the skinnier guy who was all 'pyro' and stuff?
Or was it the loud obnoxious one, who was very anti-social.. I thought his name was Frank? I thought if anyone would get in trouble afterwards it would be Frank.. lol. This show is so disturbing.. poor kids man. Being know as a 'brat' from the tv show can't be fun.
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Jail? And people complain about the money we spend on the military!!! At least in the military hed learn a trade and get the disciipline he needs. And probably a sound beating that make put a little sense in his head. Am not as pro-military as I sound but theres lots of....
1. STRUCTURE
2. DISCIPLINE
Sometimes you need it.
Prison, just another growth industry.
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i don't think Isiah is the kid who looked into the family and (expletive deleted). That was Frank.
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sorry- meant looked into the camera.
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Guess what - the miltary doesn't want kids with a past either.... Go down to your local recruiter and tell him you like to get high, don't like authority and generally like to do whatever you want and see how quickly they show you the door. If you manage to lie your way in (not sure why any teen with the above attributes would want to hide out in the military in the first place), they'll weed you out in boot camp.
On 2005-08-04 09:36:00, Shortbus wrote:
"Jail? And people complain about the money we spend on the military!!! At least in the military hed learn a trade and get the disciipline he needs. And probably a sound beating that make put a little sense in his head. Am not as pro-military as I sound but theres lots of....
1. STRUCTURE
2. DISCIPLINE
Sometimes you need it.
Prison, just another growth industry.
"
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The military is full of anti-social personalities (formerly known as sociopaths).
But yeah, they do get benefits and if he can make it through boot camp and then deal with the daily regimen as an enlisted man, he should join the marines.
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It is so sad that this happened to this kid, I feel for him, and the parents quite frankly. This whole concept of sending a child away to be fixed and the reality tv show thing is sickening. We don't fix kids they are not mechanical things they are human beings. Again shame on them!
Andrea
pfrr.org
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No, it was Isaish who warned kids to run if they thought they were going to be sent to a program.
Frank expressed, and appeared to prefer solo because he 'didn't have to be around the others'.
***He is home now and awaiting a juvenile court date. His mother, Virginia Alarcon, declined to allow him to speak with the newspaper. She told the Sun-Star last week that his behavior had improved since he returned from the wilderness school.****
Might his behavior have improved toward his mother in order to keep himself out of a return visit to sagewalk or some other program prison- TBS?
BM is HIGHLY effective in teaching kids how to hide the 'undesirable' behavior, how to be more covert with their 'undesirable' activites.
***Brat Camps Web site describes the boy as an,angry punk rocker who smokes, drinks and has an obsession with fire.***
What I've noticed to date is that the staff are working with the kids who are easier to intimidate and manipulate. Not much pushing on Isaiah and Frank. I assume because they are afraid of these boys anger and don't really have the tools to deal with it. The staff are just tip toeing around these guys, but proclaiming that they both are having momumental 'breakthroughs'.
Isaiah is the one who cried and said that he could now forgive his mother after reading her letter in which she admitted to the divorce being her fault.
I probably differ on this, but I thought the bow drill exercise was useful. I think their momentary joy of accomplishment was real. It could've been one of the first accomplishments some had experienced. But like an ol time revival, that joy doesn't stick. It's a temporary high and doesn't address the underlying fear, confusion, apathy, anger.
I think he (and the others)needs someone who will take a vested interest in him and guide him- in the real world, not a program or jail. Help him find what makes him passionate. Where he could put his time and attention in a more constructive way. Perhaps he needs some career counseling and a good mentor in his chosen area of interest. Perhaps a trade school instead of public school.
The question that parents and programs fail to ask- what are Isaiah's real needs that aren't being met? How can I assist him in getting those needs met.
NOT, how can a manipulate, trick, punish him out of his current behavior, which is but a manifestation of unmet needs.
Kids who have been largely ignored and backed into a corner are not going to ask someone to care about them. The risk of outright rejection and humiliation is too high.
Isaiah is also the one who told his friends on camera, they better throw him a party when he got out.
He obviously did not 'embrace' the program. He was obviously not 'helped' (by the program's definition). Why did they graduate him? Why didn't sagewalk keep him until he was 'fixed'?
His leaving would seem to be premature if the goal is to change the behavior.
My experience is that the behavior doesn't change until the thinking and feelings change. It would be incongruent to walk around 'acting' happy while there was a fire storm raging inside.
Forced 'treatment' and punishment (program/jail) are not effective.
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so, Andrea. What should the parents have done with this kid? He was out of control. your solution?
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Only if whats going on in your life now isnt working for you... otherwise there no sense in changing is there? What I meant was if the choice is military or jail, the military does a far better job of socializing someone than jail does. Ive had friends that were given a choice.... they chose the military and wound up excelling. The military is full of sociopaths toeing the line.
Tell anyone your priorities are getting high and theyll show you the door. I dont want to worry about losing my business because some knucklehead shows up to work with a bag of weed and decides to sell some to a customer on my property. Duh. And if youve got problems with authority its best to work for yourself. IF youve got the initiative and energy. Dont like authority and dont like to follow the rules... those are the types that make change happen.
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Change is not a linear process. I would expect any kid would slip from time-to-time.
I wonder if the staff 'tip-toed' around Frank and Isaiah because of the presence of cameras. Would they have been less restrained if there were no impartial witnesses around?
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Yeh, that's my guess.
Fire Shaper was obviously sweating bullets when Isaiah refused to take his directive regarding building a fire. And looked much relieved when he decided it was in his best interest (or he was tired of being cold) to do it.
He has issues with authority and the guy tells him in an authoritative tone to tend the fire.
He might have avoided all the discomfort if he'd of simply asked, 'hey Isaiah, you are a master of fire, how about building a fire for us tonight?'
If you're going to push a button, better be ready for a nuclear explosion.
As Isaiah said later, the only reason he didn't get up and pop him was because he didn't want to screw up his chances of going home by Xmas. Might've been good if they'd both put the gloves on and went a few rounds.
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On 2005-08-04 09:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Go down to your local recruiter and tell him you like to get high,"
I'm not kidding-- there was a news story about a high school senior, who went undercover for his school paper. He posed as a student interested in joining the army. He recorded his phone calls with the recruiter. He told the recruiter he smoked pot, and didn't think he would graduate. The recruiter told him to get a fake HS diploma online, and where he could go buy a speical drink that is designed to clean your system for pee tests! I kid you not! They are THAT desperate for bodies I guess, it made national news- I'll see if I can find a link.
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here it is
A high school journalist goes undercover to find out just how far recruiters will go to enlist teens.
David McSwane had seen the military recruiters around town. He had seen them at the high school. And he knew that with recruitment rates down due to the Iraq war, they were working hard to attract new cadets. And it gave him an idea.
"I wanted to see how far they'd go to get another soldier," says McSwane, a reporter for the Westwind at Arvada West High School in Arvada, Colo. So he set up a sting investigation, posing as a high school dropout with a marijuana habit and went down to his local Colorado Army recruitment station to enlist.
McSwane, 17, knew he would have to document his conversations with the recruiters, so he taped the telephone conversations, enlisted his sister to pose as a proud sibling so she could photograph parts of the process, and asked a friend to operate a video camera across from a local head shop.
But how did McSwane get an recruiter to visit a head shop with him? Simple. The honor student, pretending to have a ganja habit he couldn't kick, went there to score a detoxifying kit the Army office claimed had helped two previous recruits pass drug tests, according to a taped phone conversation broadcast on local TV. McSwane told his recruiter he didn't know what the detox formula looked like, so the man agreed to go to the store with him.
Aside from his drug problem, McSwane said he had no high school diploma -- which at that time was true, as he graduated about two months later -- and that he had dropped out of high school. No problem, the recruiters told him. There are Web sites where anyone can order a diploma from a school they make up. "It can be like Faith Hill Baptist School or whatever you choose," one recruiter can be heard saying on one of the taped exchanges.
After the fruits of his investigation ran in the Westwind, there was a brief lull.
Then a Denver TV station picked up the story and ran with it, first airing McSwane's findings on April 28. Within a few days the boy's sting had made national headlines, and the U.S. Army froze recruiting operations nationwide for a day. (His two would-be recruiters were suspended.)
"It's been kind of cool to see a reaction from the Pentagon on a story done in a high school paper," the teen reporter says. He has appeared on local and national TV, and articles on his investigation have appeared in the Rocky Mountain News in Denver and The New York Times. One could understand if the school was a bit unaccustomed to all the media attention.
Rick Kaufman, a spokesman for Jefferson County Public Schools, said that after the initial report ran in Westwind, "the principal was very clear with David that the articles could not go any further into his undercover actions." Because the school paper is produced as part of a class, the principal reviews the paper prior to publication and has the power to spike any story.
McSwane says his scrupulous documentation has for the most part prevented naysayers from calling his investigation false. Still, he says, some have questioned the ethics involved in a deceptive operation like the one he orchestrated: "Any undercover investigation, you're going in there as a lie. And a lot of people don't like it."
In the fall McSwane plans to start on a journalism degree at Colorado State University in Fort Collins. But he's not taking it easy in the meantime. "I work retail graveyard shifts right now, because I've got to make money for college," he says, upon waking in the mid-afternoon. On his days off, he interns at the Arvada (Colo.) Press.
Like any good romance, McSwane's love of journalism started with something of an accident. "I guess I've always had a knack for writing," he says. "One day one of my English teachers just put me in newspaper class without my permission."
Graham Webster (http://www.alternet.org/wiretap/23737/ (http://www.alternet.org/wiretap/23737/)
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Did anyone see the trailer for PrimeTime that aired during BC?
Tonight: The Lost Kids Behind Bars
Teens in prison
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On 2005-08-04 09:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
I thought if anyone would get in trouble afterwards it would be Frank
I didn't think so. I think Frank pretty much just let it all roll off. He seems to be the only authentic adult on set for this grotesque production.
If they can get you to ask the wrong questions they don't have to worry about the answers
--Thomas Pynchon, Gravity's Rainbow (Proverbs for Paranoids)
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On 2005-08-04 10:59:00, Deborah wrote:
"
As Isaiah said later, the only reason he didn't get up and pop him was because he didn't want to screw up his chances of going home by Xmas. Might've been good if they'd both put the gloves on and went a few rounds.
Ok, so there are 12 people hanging around a camp fire. All of them want to stay warm. All of them have a few weeks practice and observation w/ tending a camp fire. How come none of the others said "Fuck this, I'll tend the damned fire."?
I'm guessing is that whoever broke ranks like that would not have gone home for Christmas.
When you're on the hot seat in a situation like that, logically you know that's the case. But, when you're in a situation like that over an extended period under extreme stress and kept intentionally in the dark about everything (what happens next, where will we sleep, will we sleep, etc.) you begin to lose track of where the boundary lies between what you know and what you're seeing and hearing.
It can be most nerve wracking, `bleve it!
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. For when you look long into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you.
--Nietzsche
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Did anyone else pique at, I think it was, Lexi's comments? If it wasn't Lexie, it was Lauren. But one of the girls said something to the effect that she couldn't be quite sure whether she was really changing or just bullshitting herself into thinking she was changing.
Any of you psyche pros and students want to take a stab at that? I could give you my take, but you'd only think I was projecting. And maybe that's so. But maybe not. Maybe I have a pretty good idea what that means because, under similar circumstances, she and I had similar experiences.
All penalties for drug users should be dropped...Making drug abuse a crime is useless and even dangerous...Every year we seize more and more drugs but the quantity available still increases...Police are losing the drug battle worldwide.
--Raymond Kendall ~ Secretary General of Interpol 1994
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Sounds like a teenage verbal expression of "I want to relieve my cognitive dissonance. It's killing me..."
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***I didn't think so. I think Frank pretty much just let it all roll off.
Ditto. I think Frank had the program pegged from the get go and how to do just enough to get by.
Why are they editing out all the 'private' counseling sessions with Isaiah and Frank???
What manly advice and guidance is Flying Eagle giving these two?
***Ok, so there are 12 people hanging around a camp fire. All of them want to stay warm. All of them have a few weeks practice and observation w/ tending a camp fire. How come none of the others said "Fuck this, I'll tend the damned fire."?
Because Fire Shaper declared that if Isaiah didn't build a fire there wouldn't be one. Guilt trip material. Sick the peers on him material. Several of the kids encouraged (begged) him. He relented.
Interesting too that when Isaiah flatly said No, I'm not doin it.
Nick goes, 'uh oh'.
I think they call it Peer Pressure.. aka Supportive Peer Culture. hehe
None of them want to spoil their chance of going home Xmas.
It was Lauren who questioned if the changes were 'real'. I think she was savvy enough to question, but have always seen her as a wilderness staffer in training.
Notice the expressions she makes, like when Derrick was dropping a load at the top of the repelling cliff, or Nick was being publicly humiliated in the cooking scene when he couldn't divide 15 by 3.
She also made some comment like, everytime there's something that needs to get done Derek's over there scrathing his ass.
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Anonymous 2005-08-04 09:28:00 Said ? ?MENTORING IS THE BEST SOLUTION plus anger management.?
Deborah What is this 'outside' of wich you speak? 2005-08-04 10:28:00 Said --?I think he (and the others)needs someone who will take a vested interest in him and guide him- in the real world, not a program or jail. Help him find what makes him passionate. Where he could put his time and attention in a more constructive way. Perhaps he needs some career counseling and a good mentor in his chosen area of interest.?
I agree that mentoring, together with appropriate counseling is a great option and should be tried before more extreme interventions. I?m convinced that troubled kids need ATTENTION (not the negative kind of attention that acting out creates)!!!! Kids also need someone who LISTENS TO THEM!!!! From me personal experience of being a mentor 4 different times in various ways (Big Brothers & Big Sisters, juvenile detention mentoring, internet) three of the four kids responded positively to the experience. None made miraculous changes, but it was obvious that they took something valuable away from the experience. And I think radical behavior changes take much longer than any program?s time frame. If you?ve noticed, people change very slowly, and many people work on their issues their entire lives. Kids are no different. Change takes time?so obviously I think Mentoring should be a long-term friendship.
Also I think Frank in particular has a lot of potential even though its obvious he?s not ?embracing the program.? I guess I say that because I was a lot like him at that age (his attitude).
Shortbus 2005-08-04 10:29:00 Said ? ?And if you?ve got problems with authority its best to work for yourself. IF you?ve got the initiative and energy. Don?t like authority and don?t like to follow the rules... those are the types that make change happen.?
I completely agree?I wish more people realized that those kids who don?t follow the rules, live life their own way are potential innovators! Kids like Frank just need to learn how to channel their non-conformist ways into something healthy and productive that also suits their own interests.
Kris
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I haven't been watching the show because I vowed to boycott ABC as long as it ran. It's really poetic that the idol's feet of clay have been revealed so quickly.
I thought this show was going to glorify the industry and cause a boom in fly-by-night programs. Things seem to be working out a little differently. This may turn out to be the worst public relations disaster the industry has had in a long time.
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One can hope. But the next show is apparently already in the planning:
http://discuss.ctv.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=1707 (http://discuss.ctv.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=1707)
i recently read a thread titled "exploiting kids for a profit" and one of the first lines read that the counselors dont care about the kids. this line upset me greatly in that i do work for one of the premier wilderness therapy programs in the country in south central utah and there is NOT one counselor or therapist or for that matter one employee of our company that does not care about any of our students. i do not feel that any one who works in the mental health field/ therapeutic field who does not care about the students or patients we work with. if we did not care, we would not be doing the work we are doing.
as a program we are the next "victim" to get a chance to be flimed by the 20/20 company that films the brat camp series; and i hope that if given a chance you all will watch the new one and see that there are programs who work hard to do the best work possible for the students.
i could go on for a long time in defense of our industry (wilderness therapy) but alas, i need to go to work tomorow for the next 7 days woirking with students who have all sorts of diagnosable disorders ranging from crystal meth dependence to attention deficit disorder. i also will be with the parents of these children on monday as the students i will see are completing their stay here in utah.
if you would like more information please email me at [email protected].
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On 2005-08-04 11:56:00, Deborah wrote:
"
Did anyone see the trailer for PrimeTime that aired during BC?
Tonight: The Lost Kids Behind Bars
Teens in prison"
I'm going to watch it. I also picked up the newest issue of Time. The cover story is '13.' It purports to examine what it means to be 13 years old these days. I haven't read it, yet.
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I am just now catching up on this controversy. I am confused. Deborah, from some of your prior involvement on strugglingteens and also on this site, I thought you were anti- programs. Now I see that you actually work for one! If your program is OK, why is it that you say all the others are bad and that parents who send their kids are terrible parents? Or, am I getting you confused with other posters. There is a lot to digest over here and I have been gone for some time. Please clarify.
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You are definitely confusing me with other posters.
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Sorry-the way your post was stuctured it looked like YOU work for a wilderness program. Silly me. Looking back at your old posts it all comes back. You are the woman with the agenda to pay the world back for your kid going to Hidden Lake.
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I watched about 15 minutes of the show and wanted to puke. I couldn't bear to watch these kids be put through hell, all while they were made to look like little punks. I think we should have all boycotted rather than watch the show.
Anyone get a chance to look at the TV Guide listing online? I did the other day and there were three WWASP ads below the listing for last week's Brat Camp. Three different web sites that all led to WWASP. Not surprised a bit.
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On 2005-08-04 23:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I watched about 15 minutes of the show and wanted to puke. I couldn't bear to watch these kids be put through hell, all while they were made to look like little punks. I think we should have all boycotted rather than watch the show.
Anyone get a chance to look at the TV Guide listing online? I did the other day and there were three WWASP ads below the listing for last week's Brat Camp. Three different web sites that all led to WWASP. Not surprised a bit."
I know of at least one kid who got sent to Tranquility Bay because his father got the idea from watching Brat Camp.
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Why are they editing out all the 'private' counseling sessions with Isaiah and Frank???
What manly advice and guidance is Flying Eagle giving these two?
So it's okay to make a girl tell the nation how she was sexually molested when she was twelve but now the counsellors have something to say they turn the cameras away. I wonder what threats they are making that they don't want the audience to know about.
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On 2005-08-05 01:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-08-04 23:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I watched about 15 minutes of the show and wanted to puke. I couldn't bear to watch these kids be put through hell, all while they were made to look like little punks. I think we should have all boycotted rather than watch the show.
Anyone get a chance to look at the TV Guide listing online? I did the other day and there were three WWASP ads below the listing for last week's Brat Camp. Three different web sites that all led to WWASP. Not surprised a bit."
I know of at least one kid who got sent to Tranquility Bay because his father got the idea from watching Brat Camp."
His father has to be the biggest moron on the face of the fucking planet. :flame: There is so much in the bible against which every insinct of my being rebels, so much so that I regret the necessity which has compelled me to read it through from beginning to end. I do not think that the knowledge I have gained of its history and sources compensates me for the unpleasant details it has forced upon my attention.
--Helen Keller, American lecturer
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On 2005-08-04 18:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Sorry-the way your post was stuctured it looked like YOU work for a wilderness program. Silly me. Looking back at your old posts it all comes back. You are the woman with the agenda to pay the world back for your kid going to Hidden Lake.
"
And you're the wretched little waste of space that relies on ad hominem attacks due to your cognitive deficiencies.
Nice to see ya again! Wanna argue? You have never been able even to respond coherently, but I'm willing to give you another chance. I won't quit on you like you quit on your kid...promise! :wave:
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Now that is impressive,--I always thought of Dysfunction as a computer geek with no particular skills aside from the technical ones: but he spelled "ad hominem" correctly (not "ad hominum" which is wrong and is in the way most people spell it)
OK Dys--you've proven you're an intellectual---now you can relax and have a legitimate argument with posters like the last one who you are concerned has "cognitive deficiencies".
"Ad hominem" attacks are low brow, no question--- making cracks about somebody's "cognitive deficiencies": now just how would you evaluate that level of debate?
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On 2005-08-05 07:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Now that is impressive,--I always thought of Dysfunction as a computer geek with no particular skills aside from the technical ones: but he spelled "ad hominem" correctly (not "ad hominum" which is wrong and is in the way most people spell it)
OK Dys--you've proven you're an intellectual---now you can relax and have a legitimate argument with posters like the last one who you are concerned has "cognitive deficiencies".
"Ad hominem" attacks are low brow, no question--- making cracks about somebody's "cognitive deficiencies": now just how would you evaluate that level of debate?"
What I would like to see is a debate (where ad hominem attacks are objectively extirpated) between this Struggling Troll and Deborah.
As for the "crack " I made... This is solely in response to the name-calling and "low-brow" remarks made by this poster who STEADFASTLY REFUSES to debate the facts, but rather resorts to this type of behavior.
If this person feels so secure about how they have treated their child, then why not open it up for real debate? Why call names every time someone tries to engage this person in meaningful dialogue about the program to which she sent her child?
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The Facts? You want to debate facts with parents? Since when?
Name calling? You are the initiators of all that. Yes, some of us stooped to your level. I, for one, apologize for doing so. I see no reason to disclose my son's program after the senseless posting of another parent's personal information. Why would I put myself in the same position? I disagreed with some aspects of my son's program. In fact, despite your opinion, many of the parents repeatedly question what is going on at the programs. I'm sure you know from all your research that Karen's son left his program early after some real confrontations between the parents and the school. You didn't bother to mention this when you were attacking her. My son was at the same program and also left early by his choice (he was 18. No program is perfect, but that doesn't mean they are abusive or out only to make money.
Ben's Dad
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NEWS BULLETIN: Whooter, the person who sent you to this link, WORKS FOR ASPEN EDUCATION. See below quote from Whooter admitting his "fiduciary duty" to Aspen Education. Whooter is an industry troll and not "just a regular parent" as he would try to make people believe.
When is this supposed to take place?
Well the announcement takes place after the lawyers sign off on the deal, but they usually wait until the transfer is ready to take place.
The legal transfer typically takes place at the beginning of the new quarter (or fiscal year).
So based on this I would expect the announcement would come at anytime and the transfer could occur on Tuesday October 1, 2007 or early January 2008.
...
How is it that you are in a position to have knowledge about the acquisition of HLA?
I apologize for being vague, I have a fiduciary duty which prevents me from speaking in any specific terms in this area and can only comment on information which is first made public by either party involved, this could be misconstrued as Tipping
***Now that is impressive,--I always thought of Dysfunction as a computer geek with no particular skills aside from the technical ones: but he spelled "ad hominem" correctly (not "ad hominum" which is wrong and is in the way most people spell it)***
Well, thanks for the, uh, compliment... :roll:
If you did take any amount of time to read what I have written in the past, you would have seen that I am an "IT guy" yes, but also an MSW and MBA.
I worked as a therapist in an RTC (Daytop Village) and an intake counselor at a "TBS" (there really is no such thing, they're "BMW's"-behavior modification warehouses) (Hidden Lake Academy), so I know a bit about how these places operate and exactly what their priorities are.
Now, if you require troubleshooting for your child or your internet connection, please feel free to drop me a line for some down-to-earth advice about either one...
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality"
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2005-08-05 09:00 ]
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I would be happy to debate you at any time over the "therapeutic value" of any of these programs.
Your post shows, once again, that you are not interested in debating. If not, what are you doing here? Just reading for fun?
Let's talk about the Academy at Ivy Ridge, shall we, "Ben's Dad"?
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality"
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2005-08-05 09:18 ]
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I don't know anything about Ivy Ridge. That is not where my son was.
The problems I see with the TBS programs (as opposed to wilderness are these:
1. Hard to retain good therapists because of the remote location of most of the schools. The therapists are frequently young with young families (or single) and tire of the life-style).
2. Hard to retain good academic teachers- same reasons plus it is a year-round job which takes away one of the huge perks of being a teacher in the first place. Also, the academics are very secondary at most of these places, although academics were stressed more at my son's program.
3. Financial- My son's program had a lot of money behind it, which is why it is successful. Many of the programs do not, and simply go broke.
4. Inflexibility- There is an attitude of there being only one way to do things. It is hard for the leadership of the schools to be flexible enough to make exceptions for special needs or adjust the program. Things are ruled by an iron grip.
5. Staffing- It is the junior staff who have the most interaction with the kids. At my son's program the junior staff were great. However, their opinion was not given the weight it deserved and it was the top dogs, who had less interaction with the kids, who made the important decisions regarding a kid.
6. Peer relations- It really bothered my son that there seemed to be an incentive to turn on other kids in the group sessions to make it look like you were really buying in.
These are just a few comments.
Ben's Dad
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On 2005-08-05 09:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I don't know anything about Ivy Ridge. That is not where my son was.
The problems I see with the TBS programs (as opposed to wilderness are these:
1. Hard to retain good therapists because of the remote location of most of the schools. The therapists are frequently young with young families (or single) and tire of the life-style).
2. Hard to retain good academic teachers- same reasons plus it is a year-round job which takes away one of the huge perks of being a teacher in the first place. Also, the academics are very secondary at most of these places, although academics were stressed more at my son's program.
3. Financial- My son's program had a lot of money behind it, which is why it is successful. Many of the programs do not, and simply go broke.
4. Inflexibility- There is an attitude of there being only one way to do things. It is hard for the leadership of the schools to be flexible enough to make exceptions for special needs or adjust the program. Things are ruled by an iron grip.
5. Staffing- It is the junior staff who have the most interaction with the kids. At my son's program the junior staff were great. However, their opinion was not given the weight it deserved and it was the top dogs, who had less interaction with the kids, who made the important decisions regarding a kid.
6. Peer relations- It really bothered my son that there seemed to be an incentive to turn on other kids in the group sessions to make it look like you were really buying in.
These are just a few comments.
Ben's Dad"
OK, this gives us something to go on, Ben's Dad...
I think the points you made here are valid. What I don't understand is how you think any of your points do not apply to wilderness programs (save for the academic area).
1. In wilderness programs, there is no regular contact with a REAL (by this I mean licensed, credentialed) therapist. Kids may get one "session" a week from a quack-job, most of the time by telephone.
The reason that there are not reputable therapists working with these programs is that the programs themselves violate ethical patient care standards. That's why good therapists don't work there, not because of the "remote" locations.
2. Does not apply.
3. Financial success does not equate to therapeutic value. I worked at perhaps the most expensive and "in vogue" TBS that makes millions of dollars per year, but the program is of little or no therpeutic value to its clients.
In fact, it has been shown by countless studies that the "experiential" treatment modality is counterproductive to fostering either emotional growth or "mental health."
4. Both residential and wilderness programs use "one-size-fits-all" treatment methods. For example, a young girl with an eating disorder is in the same program groups as a young boy with an arson fetish. Just have a look at any "Brat Camp" episode and you'll see this.
The location where the "treatment" is administered makes no difference. The "treatment plans" are the same (although most wilderness and TBS programs don't offer actual treatment plans because they then would be required to be overseen by the state and they vehemently resist any regulation whatsoever, so your kid most likely never had a treatment plan anyway).
5. "Junior Staff" are inexperienced, usually uncredentialed workers at TBS's. At wilderness programs, they are almost invariably untrained and uncredentialed and they have primary responsibility for the kids. Who would want that?
6. Encouraging kids to "rat" is one way of learning things when your staff is unable or untrained to see and evaluate what is actually going on. It is also a key factor in all BM programs, as it reinforces rigid adherance to the rules through fear of consequences.
Don't you understand that these kids only comply with program dogma because it will go REALLY bad for them if they don't? Your son evidently complied only up until the exact moment in time at which he could no longer be legally controlled by you and the program. Compliance to program rules in no way relates to "progress" with one's "issues." It only means the kid is smart enough to not "blow up his own spot."
Thanks for being kind in your post and for getting to some real information about these programs. Evidently, we don't see eye-to-eye on this subject, but at the very least, you get FIRST-HAND observations from me, not filtered through someone looking to make a buck off you...
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Of course it depends on the kid (some kids do indeed have profound mental health issues and will need psychological/psychiatric support indefinitely)---but it sounds to me like you (Dysfunctional) are placing excessive importance on the amount of individual therapy provided per child in these programs,
We often forget that people--including teenagers--have untapped personal, frequently unrecognized strengths and resilience. A therapist can have a role in realizing these things, no question, but so can trusted adults, good friends, ministers, positive life experiences, opportunities to do better, and so on.
Now I understand that Dysfunctional doesn't think that any of these good contacts happen in any programs---we may have to agree to disagree on that---my point is: don't think of all teenagers who are acting out as just a pool of potential clients for some mental health professionals.
They might be better viewed as still maturing people in need of learning more about how to be fully functioning individuals in the world---I've got nothing against therapists and good ones certainly can help with this process--but so can many other things and people
I also think Dysfunctional may be a little off on whether or not therapists can ethically work at these kinds of programs---it will obviously depend on the program----but I know of therapeutic boarding schools that have actually been APA internship sites, presumably these school were considered ethical practice sites by the APA which had to approve them as a training location
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Don't confuse "therapeutic value" with "seeing a therapist."
My question to you is, if "therapeutic value" can be had through relationships with ministers, teachers, role-model-type adults and others, then why would you ever need to send your kid to a program to find these people?
I never said that these types don't work in programs. There aren't many, but there are some. But why do you need to send your kid away for that?
You really defeated your own argument behind sending kids to programs.
I also think that the vast majority of kids don't need therapy either. They can be helped by caring parents.
But what you're saying is that most kids don't need therapy (I agree wholeheartedly) and that very little therapy takes place at a TBS or wilderness program (again, I agree).
So, I guess what I'm asking then is why did you ever send your kid away in the first place? You say it wasn't for "therapy" and you say most kids can be helped at home? What happened in YOUR home?
If your kid was too messed up to be helped by you and others as you describe above, you must have sent them away for something else, which most people would assume to be therapy.
Please help me understand your contradictory statements...[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2005-08-05 11:25 ]
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Title: Two Years Later: A Qualitative Assessment of Youth Well-Being and the Role of Aftercare in Outdoor Behavioral Healthcare Treatment.
Author(s): Russell, Keith C., University of New Hampshire, Durham, NH, US
Address: Russell, Keith C., University of New Hampshire, Durham, NH, US
Source: Child & Youth Care Forum, Vol 34(3), Jun 2005. pp. 209-239.
Journal URL: http://www.springeronline.com/sgw/cda/f ... eader=true (http://www.springeronline.com/sgw/cda/frontpage/0,11855,4-40430-70-35605454-0,00.html?changeHeader=true)
Publisher: Germany: Springer
Publisher URL: http://www.springeronline.com (http://www.springeronline.com)
ISSN: 1053-1890 (Print)
Digital Object Identifier: 10.1007/s10566-005-3470-7
Language: English
Keywords: youth well being; aftercare role; outdoor behavioral healthcare treatment
Abstract: This study evaluated youth well-being 24-months after the conclusion of outdoor behavioral healthcare (OBH) treatment and explored how youth transition to a variety of post-treatment settings. OBH treatment involves integrating clinical treatment approaches with wilderness expeditions that average over 50 days. Transition from OBH treatment often requires that youth and family utilize aftercare services, which are typically: (a) outpatient services, which are comprised of individualized, group or family therapy, or (b) residential services, which are comprised of residential treatment centers, therapeutic boarding schools, and others. The results suggest that 80% of parents and 95% of youths perceived OBH treatment as effective, the majority of clients were doing well in school, and family communication had improved. Aftercare was utilized by 85% of the youths and was perceived as a crucial component in facilitating the transition from an intensive wilderness experience to family, peer and school environments. Results also indicated that many continued to use alcohol and/or drugs to varying degrees, had legal problems, and still had issues forming friendships with peers. OBH treatment was perceived as being a necessary and effective step in helping youths address, and eventually overcome, emotional and psychological issues that were driving destructive behavior prior to OBH treatment. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2005 APA, all rights reserved)(journal abstract)
Subjects: *Aftercare; *Health Care Psychology; *Well Being
Classification: Health & Mental Health Services (3370)
Population: Human (10)
Male (30)
Female (40)
Age Group: Adolescence (13-17 yrs) (200)
Adulthood (18 yrs & older) (300)
Tests & Measures: Youth-Outcome Questionnaire
Form/Content Type: Empirical Study (0800)
Followup Study (0840)
Qualitative Study (0880)
Journal Article (2400)
Publication Type: Peer Reviewed Journal (270); Electronic
Format(s) Available: Print; Electronic
Release Date: 20050531
Accession Number: 2005-04985-003
Number of Citations in Source: 28
Persistent link to this record: http://search.epnet.com/login.aspx?dire ... -04985-003 (http://search.epnet.com/login.aspx?direct=true&db=psyh&an=2005-04985-003)
Database: PsycINFO
-
"But what you're saying is that most kids don't need therapy (I agree wholeheartedly) and that very little therapy takes place at a TBS or wilderness program (again, I agree)."
A comment by Dysfunctional about my previous post.
So on this much we can agree. Not a lot of therapy at least in many programs but in my experience at least a whole lot of learning and positive change through experience and relationship and development of self
So why send kids away, why not have change at home---again, I think that we can agree that boarding school placement should be a rare occurrence---it should always be a last resort.
However, in my opinion, there are times when a kid---for a variety of reasons---has gotten into a negative spiral of behaviors at home. And it is pretty hard to end that spiral while in the home---because a)the kids enjoys the behaviors, and b)the circumstances of his life at home have become "cues" to the behaviors.
Can family therapy or other serious motivation to change within the family short-circuit these behavior patterns without having to sent the kid away? Sometimes, with effort, but sometimes maybe more effort than the family is capable of.
Remember, parents are almost always (I think actually always) part of the kid's problem---as a parent who has been in that situation, I believe that wholeheartedly. And remember that at some point in the acting out, the kid may have pretty much lost confidence in the family and the family may have lost hope of being able to change.
Sometimes--as it was in our case---it is through the family being separated and changing separately---that both child and parents do become better and are able---as we were---to beging again with mutual acceptance and new skills. I saw it happen with other families also sso I know that it wasn't something unique to us.
That's our experience so you'll just have to take my word on it---as I have to take yours about what you've seen: once more I think that we can agree that one has to choose a program very carefully since they are not all of the same caliber
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My son's wilderness therapist was actually very present in his program. He was one of the founders of the program and a licensed psychologist. He saw the kids two days (back to back) a week and spent an hour on the phone with us (the parents). He was quite gifted. He had an assistant who was also a licensed psychologist. My son related well to both men once he got over his anger at being in wilderness in the first place.
The junior staff to which I refer at the TBS are actually also psychologists. I'm not talking about the couple of babysitter-types who are on staff. I'm talking about the actual therapists who lead groups and work one on one with the kids. This is the front-line, but it is frequently the upper management who thinks they know better.....
I really think wilderness is a different animal from TBS. For one thing, there is no school going on. At my son's TBS (and another thing with which some of us took issue) holding the kids out of class was a means of punishment. This served to put them behind in their work and affected their grades. Most of these kids were pretty solid students heading for good colleges, and it seemed stupid. Wilderness is very intense and eliminates many of the distractions of day to day living. Of course, the TBS eliminates many as well, but not as many as wilderness.
Ben's Dad
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To Ben's dad
The previous post to Dysfunctional was mine. Wanted to clarify that I'm not saying that therapy is bad---or that a therapist cannot be an integral part of a program.
What I'm saying is that for some kids (mine was one) what they really need is something more akin to life coaching than a medicalized psychological intervention. Obviously a therapist can be part of either process.
And in terms of life experiences and self development a therapist can be part of that too but so can other involved adults.
Many of the counsellors in my child's school had no psychology degree but much of what they did was growth promoting and contributory to good psychological health.
My point was that in these schools and programs it is not necessary for one-on-one psychotherapy on a daily basis or something like that: I think that as needed, there should be available time with trained psychologists. But some kids are going to need much more professional intervention than others.
-
On 2005-08-05 11:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Title: Two Years Later: A Qualitative Assessment of Youth Well-Being and the Role of Aftercare in Outdoor Behavioral Healthcare Treatment.
Author(s): Russell, Keith C., University of New Hampshire, Durham, NH, US
Address: Russell, Keith C., University of New Hampshire, Durham, NH, US
Source: Child & Youth Care Forum, Vol 34(3), Jun 2005. pp. 209-239.
Journal URL: http://www.springeronline.com/sgw/cda/f ... eader=true (http://www.springeronline.com/sgw/cda/frontpage/0,11855,4-40430-70-35605454-0,00.html?changeHeader=true)
Publisher: Germany: Springer
Publisher URL: http://www.springeronline.com (http://www.springeronline.com)
ISSN: 1053-1890 (Print)
Digital Object Identifier: 10.1007/s10566-005-3470-7
Language: English
Keywords: youth well being; aftercare role; outdoor behavioral healthcare treatment
Abstract: This study evaluated youth well-being 24-months after the conclusion of outdoor behavioral healthcare (OBH) treatment and explored how youth transition to a variety of post-treatment settings. OBH treatment involves integrating clinical treatment approaches with wilderness expeditions that average over 50 days. Transition from OBH treatment often requires that youth and family utilize aftercare services, which are typically: (a) outpatient services, which are comprised of individualized, group or family therapy, or (b) residential services, which are comprised of residential treatment centers, therapeutic boarding schools, and others. The results suggest that 80% of parents and 95% of youths perceived OBH treatment as effective, the majority of clients were doing well in school, and family communication had improved. Aftercare was utilized by 85% of the youths and was perceived as a crucial component in facilitating the transition from an intensive wilderness experience to family, peer and school environments. Results also indicated that many continued to use alcohol and/or drugs to varying degrees, had legal problems, and still had issues forming friendships with peers. OBH treatment was perceived as being a necessary and effective step in helping youths address, and eventually overcome, emotional and psychological issues that were driving destructive behavior prior to OBH treatment. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2005 APA, all rights reserved)(journal abstract)
Subjects: *Aftercare; *Health Care Psychology; *Well Being
Classification: Health & Mental Health Services (3370)
Population: Human (10)
Male (30)
Female (40)
Age Group: Adolescence (13-17 yrs) (200)
Adulthood (18 yrs & older) (300)
Tests & Measures: Youth-Outcome Questionnaire
Form/Content Type: Empirical Study (0800)
Followup Study (0840)
Qualitative Study (0880)
Journal Article (2400)
Publication Type: Peer Reviewed Journal (270); Electronic
Format(s) Available: Print; Electronic
Release Date: 20050531
Accession Number: 2005-04985-003
Number of Citations in Source: 28
Persistent link to this record: http://search.epnet.com/login.aspx?dire ... -04985-003 (http://search.epnet.com/login.aspx?direct=true&db=psyh&an=2005-04985-003)
Database: PsycINFO
"
I'm not sure what your point is here.
Anyone with a scintilla of knowledge about scientific method knows this is not a scientific study. It's an opinion poll, nothing more, nothing less.
Furthermore, I would submit that both the parents (spent a ton of money and need to believe it was well-spent, can't otherwise justify sending their kid away) and kids (fear that they'll be sent back) have vested interest in reporting a positive outcome.
Show me a quantitative longitudinal study and we'll talk (diagnosis/severity before and after treatment).
What you've shown is a marketing tool, not a study.
Check this out:
http://www.unh.edu/outdoor-education/Keithbio.html (http://www.unh.edu/outdoor-education/Keithbio.html)
Dr. Russell is in the business of "Outdoor Rehabilitation" and is a program designer.
Do you think he has just a little bit of interest in seeing the numbers work out?
Geez, at least you could find some research from someone OTHER THAN A PROGRAMMIE. What little credibility you had before is gone...
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality"
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2005-08-05 12:39 ]
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INDEPENDENT STUDIES NEED TO BE DONE ...
These studies by the industry are not reliable.
The DEATHS prove wilderness therapy is unsafe.
Notice how nobody wants to talk about the deaths or can even remember how many kids have died?
That's because there is no national clearinghouse that tracks this info.
None of the kids who died would have died if they weren't abused and/or neglected. That's a fact.
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I agree- the peer accountability (when it worked well) was as important as the formal therapy. My son had a lot of trouble showing emotion and weakness, and one valuable tool he came home with was how to do both.
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On 2005-08-05 12:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
"My son's wilderness therapist was actually very present in his program. He was one of the founders of the program and a licensed psychologist. He saw the kids two days (back to back) a week and spent an hour on the phone with us (the parents). He was quite gifted. He had an assistant who was also a licensed psychologist. My son related well to both men once he got over his anger at being in wilderness in the first place.
The junior staff to which I refer at the TBS are actually also psychologists. I'm not talking about the couple of babysitter-types who are on staff. I'm talking about the actual therapists who lead groups and work one on one with the kids. This is the front-line, but it is frequently the upper management who thinks they know better.....
I really think wilderness is a different animal from TBS. For one thing, there is no school going on. At my son's TBS (and another thing with which some of us took issue) holding the kids out of class was a means of punishment. This served to put them behind in their work and affected their grades. Most of these kids were pretty solid students heading for good colleges, and it seemed stupid. Wilderness is very intense and eliminates many of the distractions of day to day living. Of course, the TBS eliminates many as well, but not as many as wilderness.
Ben's Dad"
I'd be really interested in seeing any program where "junior staff" are "psychologists." I've never seen that.
Having a BA in psychology doesn't make someone a psychologist. You're saying that all the junior staff were MA level or higher and state licensed as psychologists?
That's a highly dubious claim. At least name the program so I can see for myself.
Please don't give some lame excuse about keeping your identity safe. I don't care who you are, nor do I seek to find out. But what you have said above amounts to what is an obvious "whopper."
Either you're misinformed or you were lied to by the facility. You'll have to show some evidence, as this is simply UNHEARD OF in the industry...
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Let me explain to you why some of us don't just post our names and give details of our stories.
It's not, certainly in my case, that I think you, Dysfunctional, are a dangerous person who should not know my personal story. And it's also not because I am in some kind of awe of you and afraid you won't approve of me.
In my own case---and I would imagine the cases of some others---my decision not to post my name relates to the fact that this is not just my story---it is the story of our whole family.
If I speak in identifiable detail I speak even for family members who wish to remain anonymous.
Think for a moment of a situation where I might, say have a daughter or son who graduated from a school or program and who is about to apply to the police academy or to some professional school. That child might not want the details of a troubled adolescenc bandied about---possibly coming to the attention of future teachers or employers who don't really understand the whole subject.
Or I might have a spouse who is a very private person and who doesn't want to share this story on a web site, however good the outcome for our family.
I expect that you have lived long enough and experienced enough to have understanding of such reasons for posting without using a real name. Doubtless at some point in the future many of us will be in a position to be more transparent in our communications
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All I asked for was the name of the program, nothing else.
Using the "I don't wish to reveal my identity" statement is a non sequitur.
One has nothing at all to do with the other. It just diminishes your credibility because you talk all kinds of B.S. about "our program" and never back it up with a single fact.
Again, what program has all licensed psychologists, MA or better, "junior staffers?" If you can't name the program, then I have to assume you're lying for whatever reason.
To my knowledge, such a program simply does not exist. Prove me wrong or admit the "whopper."
-
On 2005-08-05 13:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Let me explain to you why some of us don't just post our names and give details of our stories.
It's not, certainly in my case, that I think you, Dysfunctional, are a dangerous person who should not know my personal story. And it's also not because I am in some kind of awe of you and afraid you won't approve of me.
In my own case---and I would imagine the cases of some others---my decision not to post my name relates to the fact that this is not just my story---it is the story of our whole family.
If I speak in identifiable detail I speak even for family members who wish to remain anonymous.
Think for a moment of a situation where I might, say have a daughter or son who graduated from a school or program and who is about to apply to the police academy or to some professional school. That child might not want the details of a troubled adolescenc bandied about---possibly coming to the attention of future teachers or employers who don't really understand the whole subject.
Or I might have a spouse who is a very private person and who doesn't want to share this story on a web site, however good the outcome for our family.
I expect that you have lived long enough and experienced enough to have understanding of such reasons for posting without using a real name. Doubtless at some point in the future many of us will be in a position to be more transparent in our communications
"
hey karen, youre not at struggling trolls, you relaly can post a program name here without it being deleted.
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So what if this is Karenindallas? What does that prove--- why don't you tell us who you are? HUH?!?!
I sent my son to a program twice, and I would do it again in a heartbeat. You kids over here at fornits are just that---- kids. All the 4 letter words, and namecalling are just plain ridiculous and I am getting quite fed up. I stopped signing my posts here because you are all rude, vile creatures of your own hate!
I hate fornits so much, I am going to write my congressman a letter and tell him. Yes, I have THAT much free time and nothing better to do. You think you are all that-- let me tell you, you are not. I am a lawyer and am much smarter than everyone here. Much smarter. So much, I am surprised any of you can read, let alone type.
I will spend everyday of the rest of my life at Fornits just to counter-point all your arguments programs are bad. It is my duty. No-- the programs don't pay me, I do this all on my own merit. Why? Because I think every teen is evil and should be locked away. You damn kids--- you never learn. Soon I will have all people who post on fornits arrested, I am THAT powerful. Watch and see.
The programs will never be shut down!! Keep trying though IDIOTS!
karenindallas
[email protected]
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Keep on playing games---that would be satire and ridicule---it's amusing, no question, but it gets nowhere in terms of common ground
Some of you posters here are very damaged, that's clear, maybe by bad programs, maybe by programs that just weren't sophisticated enough to deal with your complicated problems
The question remains: who among you will honestly say that there should not be programs to help adolescents who are self-destructive to an extent that is personally dangerous---who could be so cruel?
Say so if that is what you mean---spare us the satire and explain why kids should be allowed to throw away their lives for lack of experience in the world---without adult intervention
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Karen is not visiting this site anymore. I tried to engage in some meaningful dialogue, and you have gone right back to the games. Someone is misrepresenting themselves as Karen and I find it impossible to treat those of you on this site as adults.
My son went to a TBS in Virginia. I am not going to debate how many degrees the junior staff therapists had, but with a couple of exceptions they were excellent, compassionate and gifted therapists. My son is still in contact with a number of the staff-even though he chose to leave the school. My son still has some maturing to do. He had some addiction issues going into the program as well as issues with authority. Karen's son is a very unusual kid- very different from most of the kids in the programs, but considered one of the more resistant to therapy. Everyone seemed to agree that he will either be the next Bill Gates or Jack Welch or else the next Jimmy Hoffa- after the 1012 Olympics, that is.
I also don't know the relapse rate- I believe it is high. However, that doesn't mean we, as parents, were not going to try to save our kids.
Ben's Dad
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Karen is not visiting this site anymore. I tried to engage in some meaningful dialogue, and you have gone right back to the games. Someone is misrepresenting themselves as Karen and I find it impossible to treat those of you on this site as adults.
My son went to a TBS in Virginia. I am not going to debate how many degrees the junior staff therapists had, but with a couple of exceptions they were excellent, compassionate and gifted therapists. My son is still in contact with a number of the staff-even though he chose to leave the school. My son still has some maturing to do. He had some addiction issues going into the program as well as issues with authority. Karen's son is a very unusual kid- very different and more intelligent than most of the kids in the programs, but considered one of the more resistant to therapy. Everyone seemed to agree that he will either be the next Bill Gates or Jack Welch or else the next Jimmy Hoffa- after the 1012 Olympics, that is.
I also don't know the relapse rate- I believe it is high. However, that doesn't mean we, as parents, were not going to try to save our kids.
Ben's Dad
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I get the sense that you think I am misrepresenting myself as Karen---let me say---"I am not Karen"---I just happened on this site--at this point in time---and am convinced that there is more to wilderness/therauptic schools that the posters here would indicate.
At present I and other parents are in fact trying to set up a school in Idaho---my own child graduated from a program there some years ago and I remain convinced that these programs can do so much good that we personally are willing to sink our savings into keeping programs like this going.
To Ben's dad--don't give up on your son--- or on this site. Some kids take longer than others to catch on to the meaning of life, I know that from some of my son's friends--and this site---well you'll never maybe convert the true believers but your comments may help others---I hope you continue to participate because your own experience, well it's the real thing, the struggle between a child trying to find a way in the world and a parent trying to offer guidance. Don't be embarrassed that it is a messy process---life is messy simply because it is dynamic and multifaceted---shame on those who want to simplify the intrinsic nature of life (even though---understandably---for our individual offspring we may wish that the whole process could take the easiest course available).
-
Thanks for your post. No, I didn't think you were representing yourself as Karen- the person who signed her name and included her email address did, though.
Good luck with your school. It is a tough process, but many teens need help.
Ben's Dad
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On 2005-08-05 17:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Keep on playing games---that would be satire and ridicule---it's amusing, no question, but it gets nowhere in terms of common ground
Some of you posters here are very damaged, that's clear, maybe by bad programs, maybe by programs that just weren't sophisticated enough to deal with your complicated problems
The question remains: who among you will honestly say that there should not be programs to help adolescents who are self-destructive to an extent that is personally dangerous---who could be so cruel?
Say so if that is what you mean---spare us the satire and explain why kids should be allowed to throw away their lives for lack of experience in the world---without adult intervention
"
It depends on the type of program. The programs that are objected to in this forum are those that are coercive. There is only one way to survive these programs, and that is to comply with them. The act of forcing teens through these programs can, in and of itself, be damaging. No one here would say that a struggling teen should be denied help. It is the type of help that is at issue.
These programs are largely non-existent for adults simply because an adult would not tolerate being treated this way and leave. Teens, with no such rights (or perception of such rights) are stuck. This raises the ethical question as to why teens should be denied this right. Some states have laws that prevent forcing teens into therapy against their will. In the UK (where the teens for the first two brat camps came from), a child 16 and older cannot be held anywhere against their will (false imprisonment).
Personally, I find this form of coercion to be unethical. It violates my innate sense of fair play, freedom of thought, and freedom of choice that I always thought this country was all about. A person has the right to fail. To me, a forced thought reform program is a violation of a person's basic human rights.
I also believe that ultimately, a person cannot be forced to change, they have to want to and be committed to the change.
It has frequently been mentioned that there has been no long term research to indicate the success or failure rate of these programs. I disagree. The methods used have been around for at least 40 years and the results in the form of state-run boot camps and the new-age self-improvement movement of the 70s and 80s have demonstrated the results to be disasterous. That is why these programs no longer exist. States closed the camps. The new-age programs were sued out of existence. Some have been labeled 'cults.' Don't be fooled by the wilderness or TBS setting; the technique is the same.
Another objection is to the 'one-size-fits-all' approach. At Brat Camp there are nine teens with different problems. To me, it is obvious from the show that Derrick, at least, should not have gone to this program. He is failing miserably in the show and it is painfully obvious. He should be yanked out and another solution sought. Everything I have ever read about ADHD states that medication and cognative therapy get the best results and that behavior modification gets the worst results.
The coercive nature of these programs is such they refuse to recognize students that should be pulled out. It is as if the program cannot admit failure. Compounding this error is the idea that the student doesn't leave until they comply. How long does it take before someone wakes up and realizes it is not working and never will? Some kids spend years in these programs with nothing to show for it except lost years and poor parents.
Finally, it is just plain stupid to take a student that relapses and send them back into a progam. If someting does not work the first time, repeating the failure makes no sense. Try something else.
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On 2005-08-05 13:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Let me explain to you why some of us don't just post our names and give details of our stories.
Think for a moment of a situation where I might, say have a daughter or son who graduated from a school or program and who is about to apply to the police academy or to some professional school. That child might not want the details of a troubled adolescenc bandied about---possibly coming to the attention of future teachers or employers who don't really understand the whole subject.
"
You do realize that one of the strongest objections to Brat Camp is exactly what you are describing above. The privacy of these teens has been compromised and will haunt them. Isaiah was arrested recently and his name was printed in the news article which detailed that he was one of the Brat Campers. It's starting already. He is only 17.
Lauren mentioned in an interview that when she signed the release papers to be filmed, she thought she was to appear in a show similar in nature to MTVs Real World. It appears to me that she was misled into signing away her rights to patient/therapist privacy.
Watching the show Brat Camp with twice weekly therapy sessions and seemingly engaged and caring counselors, it appears that this is about as good a program of its type one could hope to find. And yet, I still find it objectionable. I would not call it therapy, it is clearly coercive in nature, and based on the outcomes, it is not very effective.
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On 2005-08-05 18:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Karen is not visiting this site anymore. I tried to engage in some meaningful dialogue, and you have gone right back to the games. Someone is misrepresenting themselves as Karen and I find it impossible to treat those of you on this site as adults.
My son went to a TBS in Virginia. I am not going to debate how many degrees the junior staff therapists had, but with a couple of exceptions they were excellent, compassionate and gifted therapists. My son is still in contact with a number of the staff-even though he chose to leave the school. My son still has some maturing to do. He had some addiction issues going into the program as well as issues with authority. Karen's son is a very unusual kid- very different from most of the kids in the programs, but considered one of the more resistant to therapy. Everyone seemed to agree that he will either be the next Bill Gates or Jack Welch or else the next Jimmy Hoffa- after the 1012 Olympics, that is.
I also don't know the relapse rate- I believe it is high. However, that doesn't mean we, as parents, were not going to try to save our kids.
Ben's Dad"
Of COURSE you're not going to "debate" the level of expertise of the staff at "your program." I knew you would beg off topic once you were caught perpetuating a fallacy that directly destroys your already tenuous credibility.
It amazes me sometimes the length that people will go to avoid admitting mistakes, even ones that are of no real consequence.
The same reason that you won't FACTUALLY debate "your program" is the self-same reason why you sent your kid there in the first place: You simply cannot be humble and admit your mistakes, so you sent your kid somewhere to be "fixed" by a bunch of pseudo-therapeutic hacks.
Ben's Dad, however well-intentioned you may be, or however you may APPEAR to want to discuss these programs, it's painfully apparent that to engage in debate that requires FACTUAL verification of your "story" means that you will be made to look incredible, and your ego simply cannot allow that.
Whenever you are ready to back up your extremely dubious statements, feel free to post a coherent argument, and we can resume some meaningful dialogue.
Good day, sir.
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality"
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2005-08-06 05:42 ]
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On 2005-08-05 18:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I get the sense that you think I am misrepresenting myself as Karen---let me say---"I am not Karen"---I just happened on this site--at this point in time---and am convinced that there is more to wilderness/therauptic schools that the posters here would indicate.
At present I and other parents are in fact trying to set up a school in Idaho---my own child graduated from a program there some years ago and I remain convinced that these programs can do so much good that we personally are willing to sink our savings into keeping programs like this going.
To Ben's dad--don't give up on your son--- or on this site. Some kids take longer than others to catch on to the meaning of life, I know that from some of my son's friends--and this site---well you'll never maybe convert the true believers but your comments may help others---I hope you continue to participate because your own experience, well it's the real thing, the struggle between a child trying to find a way in the world and a parent trying to offer guidance. Don't be embarrassed that it is a messy process---life is messy simply because it is dynamic and multifaceted---shame on those who want to simplify the intrinsic nature of life (even though---understandably---for our individual offspring we may wish that the whole process could take the easiest course available).
"
Baloney ... the only thing you remain convinced of is how much money these programs make.
Parents getting into the business of coercive behavior control, that's really rich.
Couldn't do it at home so now you figure you'll use the wilderness to do your dirty work.
How's it feel to be a loser human being? Get a life, pal. Kids are not for sale.
:smokin:
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Well, guys. I'm outa here. It is clearly impossible to have any meaningful discussions. I apologize to those of you who are able to be respectful and coherent, but this just isn't a healthy place to be.
Karen was right.
Ben's Dad
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karenindallas SAID
?I hate fornits so much, I am going to write my congressman a letter and tell him. Yes, I have THAT much free time and nothing better to do. You think you are all that-- let me tell you, you are not. I am a lawyer and am much smarter than everyone here. Much smarter. So much, I am surprised any of you can read, let alone type.
I will spend everyday of the rest of my life at Fornits just to counter-point all your arguments programs are bad. It is my duty. No-- the programs don't pay me, I do this all on my own merit. Why? Because I think every teen is evil and should be locked away. You damn kids--- you never learn. Soon I will have all people who post on fornits arrested, I am THAT powerful. Watch and see.
The programs will never be shut down!! Keep trying though IDIOTS!?
Hey KarininDallas! Guess what, I am soon to be a LAWYER TOO! As an adult, I think you are by far the most childish so-called adult I have seen in a long time. And I am not the least bit impressed by your rantings. I despise the way you insult posters here and seem to think you are some superior person because you?re a lawyer. Big deal. And I hate to break it to you?.lawyers are NOT smarter than the rest of the world.
You?ve met you match?..let me tell you what I intend to do with my legal career and the ?power? (as you call it) that comes with it. Prove that kids are NOT evil!?That they need love, compassion, and understanding?and yes, discipline?and, parents that can accept some amount of responsibility for their children?s problems because all relationships are a two-way street. I also intend to spread the word about how damaging certain program can be, but support those few programs that DO NOT abuse, demoralize, humiliate nor engage in coercive tactics. And while you are busy trying to arrest them?I will be very busy fighting, as a lawyer, on their behalf.
I am one former ?troubled teen,? who has done time in Straight, Inc., and will not rest until the hell I went through there becomes something good. Yes, I have ?tuned my life around? as a program would say?.BUT Straight is NOT what "turned me around." It took years after getting out that hell before I could put Straight/HELL behind me and move on...Oh and one other thing?I back up all the former Straightlings (and other drug war POW?s) here that posted?.they have perfectly valid reasons to be angry and make numerous valid points?the only difference is I know how to play lawyer ?games.? And I will spend the rest of my life supporting them and supporting and fighting for the kids who now stand in the shoes we once stood.
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On 2005-08-06 06:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Well, guys. I'm outa here. It is clearly impossible to have any meaningful discussions. I apologize to those of you who are able to be respectful and coherent, but this just isn't a healthy place to be.
Karen was right.
Ben's Dad"
Adios, Ben's Dad.
Glad you can take a hint.
Kids are not for sale.
Go get a real job.
:wave:
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On 2005-08-06 06:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Well, guys. I'm outa here. It is clearly impossible to have any meaningful discussions. I apologize to those of you who are able to be respectful and coherent, but this just isn't a healthy place to be.
Karen was right.
Ben's Dad"
Well, this is just about exactly what I expected. In a fair, level, grounded debate, programmies fold up like a cheap suitcase and look to place blame upon others for their inadequacies.
Instead of apologizing, why don't you just handle your business like a man? As a grown-up, can't you ignore the irreverence and get on with the discussion at hand?
I bet you said the same thing to Ben's Son: "I'm sorry, but since you asked me to EXPLAIN why I think what I do is right, I'll have to just quit being your Dad and send you to Virginia for reprogramming. When they're done with you, you won't ask that question again. And my life will be simple. Whatever happens to you happens. Oh well, as long as it's easy on me..."
Oh, by the way, the program you want to start will be a non-profit, right? Yeah, I thought so. :roll:
And, since you cannot be engaged respectfully, then I have no reason to hold back my personal opinions, right? You are one of the full-of-shittest motherfuckers with whom I have ever spoken, a dyed-in-the-wool programmie to the core, replete with excuses and bereft of answers.
Deny, deflect, dissemble, disinform, and, when all else fails to remove the spotlight, disengage.
"Your program" would tell you "You're in pattern again, Ben's Dad, I guess you're NOT going home this year after all..."
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Funny how when some real answers are demanded, the Struggling Trolls just disappear... :wave:
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Your name says it all- Dysfunction.
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Insults are so counter-productive dont you think? I think DJ is right, when its gets sticky the certain persons disappear, pretend to disappear,etc. to avoid responding to tough questions.
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On 2005-08-07 07:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Your name says it all- Dysfunction."
Anonymous
Unregistered User Posted: 2005-08-07 07:32:00
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"What are you talking about? Karen's son went to a TBS in Virginia. She has been long gone from this board and is not reading or posting. My kid was in the same program and same group with hers."
Hmmmm...two posts, remarkably only one minute apart...Who could this be? The guy who said he wouldn't visit this board anymore because it's "unhealthy?" Maybe he's just stopping by to drop a few childish insults in perceived "anonymity"... :wave:
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ha ha- where's the signature on YOUR post, Anon???
practice what you preach, oh brown-eyed one
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That last post was me, by the way. Don't want Ben's Dad thinking anyone other than me called him FULL OF SHIT, because it WAS me that called him FULL OF SHIT.
Maybe you should start signing your posts "Full-of-Shit Dad"... Just a thought.
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On 2005-08-07 10:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"ha ha- where's the signature on YOUR post, Anon???
practice what you preach, oh brown-eyed one"
Still waiting for you you to say something meaningful, Full-of-Shit Dad...
If you want to play tit-for-tat, I'm sure some of the nice young folks on the board would be happy to engage you.
Funny how you'll respond in a childish "one-upsmanship," "gotchaism" kind of way, but you wilt when the issues come up.
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This is sad. Really. They cant handle any sort of criticism or challenge to their beliefs, yet the whole point of a program and its seminars is to challenge the beliefs of them and their children! The people in the programs have a twisted sense of accountability thats like a pit of fire theyre dangled over by everyone a higher level than them or the staff, yet if you try to hold them accountability its "anonymous posting and parent/ program bashing without accountability" while they themselves are the ones posting anonymously!
Any excuse, any attack on the person or the venue to avoid having the criticism brought upon the actual issue, unless its in agreement with them. What a joke. Hold YOURSELVES accountable. Youre americans, your history is of critical thought and reason, not conformity and bowing to authority. We're supposed to be following the idealizations of the Greco-Roman culture of the mind and freedom that we so desperately try to connect ourselves to with our system of government and the arcitecture of many of our buildings, not acting like we should switch to a fascist state and bend down to authority, be weak, and do as told.
The real problem with these kids is that they arent listening to you, and the parents problem is they've done a shitty job, if any, of convincing them to listen. Why not give them a REASON? Not coersion, not a threat, not suffering, not hired goons to break them down, a REASON. The same thing Id demand, and the same thing you SHOULD demand for the program acting the way it does.
Such weak ways to try to avoid answering any question at all about anything involved except how bad the kid is, how much of a damn martyr the parent is for giving up all that money and having all that grief (and for ignoring their instincts!) and how much of a damned salvation the program or some mormon maniac is... so pathetic.
Why not criticially analyze the program as much as the facilitators of the seminars and the staffers critize you and your children? Afraid? Why not go back to that seminar in your mind and take your balls and your brain back from those assholes. No questioning of the isolation, the secrecy, and the fact that the whole objective is to break the childs defences and mind down into a regressed state to change their thinking and behavior, is there? BTW, as much as you hate to admit it thats brainwashing in a nutshell - by definition. If you dont like it its because in your mind you cant accept it despite the fact that it is what it is, and thats all it is.
But hey, continue your cowardly yellow-bellied bullshit on here, and then call us out as such mean people for using bad words on a damn monitor while much, much worse is bellowed at your children every single day! There must be a very special place in hell for someone like you. You own damn skull for the rest of your life. :wave:
Yanno what else? If you dont "get it" after reading this, its either because youre incapable and dont DESERVE to be a free american (though thats being taken care of by our own government for you!) or because you really buy into it and like being put in a position of utter authority over your child by the program. I hope you dont turn your family hierarchy into one or start being an Ed-Con or start your own program, Id hate to see someone else up against a wall when this all comes to an end in a few years :lol: Under the benign influence of our republican institutions, and the maintenance of peace with all nations whilst so many of them were engaged in bloody and wasteful wars, the fruits of a just policy were enjoyed in an unrivaled growth of our faculties and resources.
James Madison
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Nice, Niles. I'd like to think it's not wasted breath, but...
Full-of-Shit Dad is subject to the most common foible of parents everywhere: "Do as I say, not as I do."
And it's precisely this type of inconsistency that made his son have no respect for him and "act out" against his wishes.
Full-of-Shit Dad, how on earth do you expect to teach ANY kid how to "grow up" properly when you're just a child in a man's body?
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My breath isn't wasted, DJ. Anyone who comes by and sees HIS behavior, and then sees what I say, will see it for what it is. Having a counterpoint, and something rooted in reality, and calling out his bullshit for what it is will help someone from buying into his bullshit.
So yes. Maybe the person I'm talking to is a mental brazil nut. But maybe someone will come by and see what was going on - like Chi3 during my "DAMN ANSWERS" thread :smokin: During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.
--James Madison, U.S. President
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Ummm...Full-of-Shit Dad...? Hel-looo...?
Did your feelings get hurt? ::mecry::
Oh yeah, I forgot...You don't have any. :roll:
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We called him out and now he cant win becuase we wont let him dodge or tell vague bullshit instead of give a straight answer.
He cant give an answer cos he doesnt know or doesnt wanna say, so hes gone.I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father and inventor
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Pete (?) has retreated to a forum that speaks his language and never challenges his thinking. Bless him.
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Funny Ben's Dad the kids turning on each other during group therapy? Sounds like your son was in Desisto or maybe Academy at Swift River? Hmm Coldwater Springs? This is known to happen at all three....
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if you would like more information please email me at [email protected].
Did anyone take this guy up on his offer? I asked a few basic questions in a polite, casual, non-partisan sort of way but I got no reply.