Fornits

Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Mission Mountain School => Topic started by: hannah on May 04, 2005, 07:42:00 PM

Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: hannah on May 04, 2005, 07:42:00 PM
To whomever just wrote out how they felt and witnessed abuse @ MMS:

Where would you (who ever you are)be with out your experience @ MMS? If you didn't get sent there where would you be?

And if you think you should have been just sent to a therapist or so on instead of a two year  treatment facilaty---Why would your parents have sent you there?

Why where you sent there?  Because you needed to do community service with under privilidged kids and that would have made whatever problems you had better?

We all got sent to MMS for reasons!

Where would you be if you didn't go there and what path were you on before you were sent away?

And another thing I find is unfair  that I don't know who I am talking to. Who am I talking to get honest use your name!

-Hannah P.
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Antigen on May 04, 2005, 08:00:00 PM
I wonder if any of the MMS girls had a lot in common w/ Mel
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... forum=20&0 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=9355&forum=20&0)

I'm glad some people have that faith. I don't have that faith. If there is a God, a caring God, then we have to figure he's done an extraordinary job of making a very cruel world.
--Dave Matthews, South African rock musician

Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Anonymous on May 05, 2005, 12:11:00 AM
Hannah,

I never said I didn't need a treatment program, but what I needed was an effective one instead of an ineffective one.  I needed one where licensed therapists diagnosed me, where there was not verbal abuse.  Where I would not be called a liar when I wasn't lying. Where would I be if I didn't go to MMS you ask?  Well, I probably would have ended up at another treatment facility, and I wish that I had.  When I left MMS I was a wreck.  It took me a year to figure out what the hell happened to me there and then I PULLED MYSELF OUT OF THE GUTTER AND DECIDED I WAS NOT GOING TO LIVE LIKE THAT.  Out of sheer stubborness and determinated I changed my own life, with no help from MMS believe me.  My statements about abuse are clear and undisputeable.  They are precise descriptions of what happened there,  are they not?  How can you argue with that.  I prefer anonymity because I don't want my name associated with anything that has to do with MMS.
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Anonymous on May 05, 2005, 01:29:00 AM
who are you to ask all these questions???..everyone has answered them throughout the posts! Just read them all! keep going around in circles!

I would have gone a lot farther if I was given the opportunity to...instead of dwelling in my past life (prior to MMS) and analizing everything about myself up to why I wore a dark green sweater....what a waste of time! I could have applied myself to something more serious! Even now I realize that I do not need to focus on my past  abusive life  and focus on analyzing things...JUST LIVE YOUR LIVES!  for me I have a pretty harsh past with extensive abuse..even sexual abuse from my childhood....I do not need to keep on thinking about it over and over....The way I get through it is by moving on..because it wasn't my fault in the first place..and I realize that god will set things right. I do not need to hit the damn batacca to get rid of the anger...I need to think about positive things in life! I wish that my parents used that money...well actually only about $20,000 and sent me to a 3rd world country..to let me get another view of things...instead of all that bullshit therapy!!
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Anonymous on May 05, 2005, 01:30:00 AM
what are you a lawyer?
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: hannah on May 05, 2005, 02:52:00 AM
I am another girl who went to MMS and is now a women, growing and changing while MMS is still with me forever and I can't just forget about it. I am not black or white about this I didn't have a great experience or a bad a experience, and yes I think that it helped me.  I really don't know what is being compared to MMS that points at it being abusive?  Compared to what my family life?  Compared to my family life MMS was peachy....So I am just someone with another experience.  If you don't want to associate yourself with MMS, then why are you here to find a solution?    I asked those questions because it seemed like an important element to mull over.  Where would we  be with out our experience @ MMS not here thats for sure?  Thought then agian, they didn't make us do anything we didn't willingly do because you could have said no at any point.  Or I am not willing! And when you are talking about this abuse I could probable dispute it to tell you the truth---I never saw anyone pee there pants, Did you pee your pants? And the MOO thing was a friend of mine and that was a term of enderment if we are infact talking about the same person it was her nick name.  This is very hard for me, I feel and obligation to try anf bring some clarity and possible gain some.  I don't want to argue I don't want to be right.  I want to make sure my voice is heard, and truth is heard.  This is very serious stuff and I want to see it be genuine and not just negative collusion.  I am sorry that I offended you, it is very easy for this to happen because this is so touchey.  ANd plus I don't know who the hell I am talking too.  -please remember we are probable friends, and hell we might of been on a fathers retreat together, or food plan partners, or merely we have this place in common.-So love.-H
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Anonymous on May 05, 2005, 04:41:00 PM
Hannah-

I am not offended I just don't think you understand where I am coming from.  First off, lets just agree that you probably won't see things the same way I do and vice versa.  The points I am bringing up are F-A-C-T-S there is nothing to agree with or disagree with period as far as they go.  I didn't even mind the horse shit shoveling or the work crew or the exercise.  Anthing that was truely theraputic, or just a little hard work was fine.  I just don't agree with the 3 points I mentioned.  And those are HUGE issues.  As far as abuse, Are you saying that just because the abuse at home was worse then MMS that makes it okay?  Yes, I knew you while I was there, and it dosen't surprise me you are talking like this, and that we disagree.  Yes, I knew "moo"  too, and it wasn't so funny at the beginning when you were not there.  No, I did not pee my pants but someone else did.
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Anonymous on May 05, 2005, 05:49:00 PM
pee my pants?..that's and odd way of putting it. We weren't in kidergarden. I was actually always daydreaming and fantasizing to keep my mind off where I trully was. I was a close friend to you Hannah, and I trully apologize for not revieling myself..you said that I should do something about it, and I would like to tell you that the school has a lawsuit comming to them, and that's what I am doing. They need to change, and I will make sure of it.
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Anonymous on May 05, 2005, 06:19:00 PM
Then use your names.
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Anonymous on May 05, 2005, 07:30:00 PM
Their names will be known soon enough - I'm sure someone will announce the filing of the lawsuit.
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Anonymous on May 08, 2005, 10:05:00 PM
Is anyone ACTUALLY filing a lawsuit??  Hope you know that's a bit of a process.  But if you feel you have the evidence and what not, then by all means.  I mean, I support the school for the most part but maybe I'm blind?  Maybe I was so caught up in getting through that I didnt' pay enough attention to everyone else?  I suppose if the lawsuit is successful, that will tell me something... and vice-a-versa.  Please don't bash whatever I just said, for whatever reasons!!  I am sensitive dammit!  :smile:

Sarah H.
Portland, OR
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Anonymous on May 08, 2005, 10:57:00 PM
Many people actually peed there pants while I was there.
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Anonymous on May 09, 2005, 01:40:00 AM
i almost peed my pants.  on a car ride home from some trip i had to pee SOOOOOOOOOOOO bad and for some god awful reason we couldn't pull over.  OY was that painful.  finally, we did.  i didn't die or get a bladder infection.  i peed in the woods and am here to tell the story.
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: hugakid on May 09, 2005, 02:11:00 AM
Where did this whole "peed my pants" thing start? I lost the point somewhere. If girls were forced to hold it for long periods of time at MMS, and then had an accident as a result, and then are complaining about it now, I can totally see their point, their frustration, and I can certainly feel their pain. Holding it is a very bad thing for your bladder. I know, I used to do it and then get bladder infections. And those are so miserable, especially if you don't get treated for them immediately. (I was not forced to hold it, I just did it when I was busy and didn't know that it was what was causing the infections until the doctor started asking questions when I had yet another infection.)
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: audge on May 09, 2005, 02:17:00 PM
i would like to be involved in the suit if possible.  what can i do to help.  please email me at [email protected]
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Anonymous on May 09, 2005, 07:18:00 PM
wow audrey!  I actually knew you at MMS, and I am surprised to hear you say that...are you interested in the lawsuit to fight against the school or for the school?  there are a few of us  who are trying to change the school and we are acting we are keeping things confidential.., but please tell us the seriousness of this matter
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Anonymous on May 09, 2005, 10:03:00 PM
that whole "peeing pants" thing...I don't think it was actually about having to hold your pee for so long you woul pee ur pants...i think it was more about you were soo scared you almost peed your pants....I was scared on John nights when we became all loud and annoying....I would have peed my pants if he pointed at me and said "you are soo dishonest"..
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Anonymous on May 09, 2005, 10:09:00 PM
and about the lawsuit.....It's going to happen....and we are all aware that it's difficult. I wish you were there to support us intead of bragging about your great experince, or even ignoring the whole subject. Don't so much insult...by I feel insulted myself when you express how great the school was....it's not about the "greatness" of the school..it's about right and wrong ..just like in the court room...DO YOU BELIEVE EVERYONE HAD BEEN TREATED EQUALLY, FAIRLY, AND WAS GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY TO STAND UP FOR THEMSELVES..? there is no "WELL MAYBE",  "WELL I HAD A GOD EXPERINCE", "THEY MADE IT MISERABLE FOR THEMSELVES" OR "WELL WE ALL DESERVED IT". ITS "YES, "NO" YOUR HONOR.
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Anonymous on May 09, 2005, 10:27:00 PM
Yes, I believe everyone was treated fairly... so... there.
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Star on May 09, 2005, 10:31:00 PM
Sarah,

Yes Please read "FACTS"...I would like to know what your personal opinion is.
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Star on May 09, 2005, 10:33:00 PM
who are you that replied on the fairness of the school?...I can see why others remain annonimous, but why do you if you think positively of the school?
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Anonymous on May 10, 2005, 10:28:00 AM
For those of you planning a lawsuit, don't forget to keep an eye on the Montana Statute of Limitations. Hopefully you have already contacted a lawyer and know how much time you have left to file.
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Anonymous on May 10, 2005, 01:52:00 PM
Thank you for that. I think it is about 5 years, and if your years limitations has passed you can still help out, please help out. If you remember any events that occured there, and did not believe was right/fair/legal/allowed please post it. Also does anyone have the questions for the sexual/drug,alcohol/criminal/food histories we were assigned to do?
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Anonymous on May 10, 2005, 02:35:00 PM
I think this would go under proffesional malpractice, which has a limit of 3 years after date of discovery. I left only a year ago, so if you need me respond. I'm a little wary of putting my name just yet, but if there actually is a lawsuit being filed a may like to help.
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Anonymous on May 11, 2005, 03:43:00 AM
For the girl who wrote:
Yes, I believe everyone was treated fairly... so... there.

What planet are you from? If you believe what has been written here is fair, then I am truly sorry for you.

What has been written here is not fair, period. Right is right, wrong is wrong.
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Anonymous on May 11, 2005, 11:15:00 AM
someone was just trying to throw wood in the fire..lol...they didn't even answer the questions
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Anonymous on May 11, 2005, 08:12:00 PM
yes, was trying to throw wood in the fire... sometimes i think these topics are silly so i say silly things.  silly me.
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Anonymous on May 12, 2005, 12:06:00 AM
Fair in my experience is an illusion. right and wrong good or bad are up there  with black and white.  There is a lot of grey here.  I beleive the only way to know what is right and what is wrong or what you want and what you don't want is in you, your heart, your gut, my heart, my gut.  

I can't make anyone take perception of right and wrong.  It should be classified with stealing, when someone sells thier fear because they are afriad, or told to act happy and smile, when they are hurting and in pain, or blame someone else for your life, or lie to themselves and others to please someone else.  

I really know nothing, except what I feel.  and I feel all of you in my heart and my head for the last couple of months in away I haven't for years.  The truth is that I love every single one of you even if I wouldn't go fishing with you I still love you.  The same was present for me when I was there.  

I know it felt like no one cared when I got out like I had been giving up on agian, thrown away.  These are thoughts and feelings that sometimes are my lead in this life.  Focusing on the facts are very important.  Searching for those facts is the most important thing I have been doing here.  We all got out into the real world no where near another and used the telelphone, or saw eachother once in a while.  In my experience this is life, the love is still there.
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: katfish on May 12, 2005, 01:08:00 PM
Star- who are you?  I want to chat with you if possible- [email protected]

kat

Ps I don't understand this fair thing.  How are we defining fair? That we were treated fairly like as in equals.  OR with dignity and respect.  I  think were treated niether equally (kiss asses got more perks, older girls got more attention-in my time) nor with respect ( I don't think I even have to explain that one!)  Just read all posts.[ This Message was edited by: katfish on 2005-05-12 10:12 ]
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: sarahf on May 12, 2005, 01:53:00 PM
To quote the great (and yes I mean great) Mike Finn, "Fair only happens in Pomona once a year."
If any one files a law suit against MMS I will be on the front lines on their behalf.
While I don't think that it is or was a perfect place, I am hear writing because of it. I cherish my time there and my life after it. If you hate MMS so much then move on and forget about it. They are not responsible for you misery. You are.
I am probably sounding really harsh, but MMS was as difficult as it was rewarding and I have spent the last 10 years since I left working my ass off to have a successful life. Not success as they define it, but success in feeling happy and saitsfied that I am making the right choices for me. If you've made poor choices and feel guilty or unhappy that is not the school's problem.
Things that I have been descirbed in these pages as abuse I think is way off. I was forced to eat food I hate, and made to perform all manner of physical labor against my will. But that was the whole point. It wasn't about the food or the task, but about relinquishing control and changing. Again to quote Mike, "The best you could do got you there," so if you think that you would have been better off without MMS I think you are probably wrong.
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: katfish on May 12, 2005, 04:00:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-05-12 10:53:00, sarahf wrote:

"To quote the great (and yes I mean great) Mike Finn, "Fair only happens in Pomona once a year."


 If you hate MMS so much then move on and forget about it. They are not responsible for you misery. You are.

If you've made poor choices and feel guilty or unhappy that is not the school's problem.

Things that I have been descirbed in these pages as abuse I think is way off. I was forced to eat food I hate, and made to perform all manner of physical labor against my will. But that was the whole point. It wasn't about the food or the task, but about relinquishing control and changing. Again to quote Mike, "The best you could do got you there," so if you think that you would have been better off without MMS I think you are probably wrong. "


I was thinking about replying to this, but this is so very much MMS talking that I can't even bring myself to respond as I normally would.   Mike Finn, the great Mike Finn.  LOL, now that's very funny. Correction, how about, 'the greatly disturbed, power hungry, aggressive Mike Finn'...Now that's better...
And how about the  poor choices part/unhappiness not being MMS fault, being our fault- did anyone even say that we were unhappy?  Even if someone out there critical of MMS is unhappy, what on earth does being happy have to do with anything??  Completely nonsensical to me. Clarification: We're talking abuse and righting wrongs, not unhappiness.  Now if you're saying us having problems/unahppy with MMS is our own fault, then I recommend reading other posts I and other have written on blaming victims- several girls have said same thing, but the holes in that arguement are so huge you could fit...Mike through 'em!
 
'The best you could do got you there'- ROTFL - that's so MMS for ya.  Gotta give to them, they know how to get girls to follow along their script...  Just like "your way doesnt work, now it's time to do things our way"  Essentially arguing that you have no right to argue against MMS b/c your too fucked up to get it right and worse, right is what MMS tells you is right.

It's so unreal to me, downright crazy how after many years it's the same old arguement/justification with no variation.  Even words are the same, nothing uniquely individual about the arguement above. Same old MMS rhetoric.
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: sarahf on May 12, 2005, 04:57:00 PM
so, because i disagree with you, I am just another brainwashed mms flunkie?
i do think that mms is a great place. i don't think it was abusive, i think it was tough. it was supposed to be. i understand that for some people it wasn't a positive experience and that is really sad, but just because some of us had wonderful experiences there doesn't mean that we don't have minds of our own. like i've said before, i don't think it is or was a perfect, but the good far out weighs the bad.
women writing here may not have specifically said that they are unhappy, but spending all this time logging complaints on to a forum, doesn't exactly scream happy and well-adjusted.
i just happened upon this sight and was excited because i thought it might be a way to reconnect with people i had lost touch with. what i've found instead has made me sad. not sad for me, but sad for some of you, so trapped in bitterness that you can't or won't move on.
[ This Message was edited by: sarahf on 2005-05-12 14:01 ]
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: audge on May 12, 2005, 05:12:00 PM
i don't check this very often, so if you have specific questions for me please send me an email ([email protected]).  i'd actually love to talk to anybody i went to that was there when i was.  all we had were each other and even then I was scared of being "called out" so much that i didn't really let myself get too close, no one-no boyfriend, friend, parent- can understand.  i don't know what to do now.  i really want to let it all go and move on with my life, but i can't in all sincerity while i know there are still girls there who are in fear and parents that are being taken advantage of
my parents didn't do too much research before sending me to montana and didn't know what i was in for.  i was sent to mms and felt abandaned- not knowing what my parents were being told about me and not able to tell them how i felt without them being told by the school that i was just being manipulative.  i left mms again, having become used to the lies i told myself and almost institutionalized (referring to the comment in another posting about a dream a girl had where she went back to visit and was scared but still felt safe) because at least i knew what to expect.  though what i expected wasn't positive, i learned how to fake my way around it.  the school convinced me that they knew the truth about everything and always knew better- "keep in touch whenever you need help"- then i was abandaned again when no one returned my phone calls.
i'm very confused, more sad then angry, and hopeful that soon there will be federal regulations on the actions taken by theraputic schools that don't have credentials to be doing what they're doing to teenagers
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Antigen on May 12, 2005, 06:06:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-05-12 13:00:00, katfish wrote:


It's so unreal to me, downright crazy how after many years it's the same old arguement/justification with no variation.  Even words are the same, nothing uniquely individual about the arguement above. Same old MMS rhetoric.

"

Tell me about it!

Quote
And how about the poor choices part/unhappiness not being MMS fault, being our fault- did anyone even say that we were unhappy? Even if someone out there critical of MMS is unhappy, what on earth does being happy have to do with anything??


This is exactly the same slight of mind they used at The Seed and Straight. If you're not completely, blithely, euphorically happy all the time, then there's "something going on w/ you!" Come on, fess up! It's you! You're the problem! Don't go blaming us just because we broke your stupid nose or some dumb shit! You did the necessary things to make us get a little rough with you!"

It's a stupid trick. Really dumb. Any toddler should be able to see through it. Nobody's 100% happy all the time or really at any time. Ask anybody "Gee, is something bothering you?" and they'll very likely be able to come up w/ something.  "Yes, come to think of it, I do have some dark feelings.... please help me!"  So this argument works on virtually anyone dumb enough or frazzled enough to accept it w/o challenge.

Oh, and no cheating your way to blissfull euphorea through drugs, sex or anything else. The only way to deliverance is through confession, shame and contrition! Just do that again and again and again until your happy!
 :roll:

I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.
--Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat



_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
   10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: sarahf on May 12, 2005, 06:11:00 PM
i'm not happy all the time, that's not what i'm saying. all i'm saying is that there is a lot of bitterness in this forum and while i think that it sad, i think putting all the blame on a program that helped lots of us is uncalled for and unfair. i looked at the web site for the Straight thing, and i thought it was a joke. i forwarded the link to some of my friends. if that place is real then it is total insanity. comparing mms to that place is absurd.
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Antigen on May 12, 2005, 07:22:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-05-12 15:11:00, sarahf wrote:

 i think putting all the blame on a program that helped lots of us is uncalled for and unfair.

All which blame? People are just comparing notes and finding that, though you couldn't dare say it then, a lot of them felt the same way about things that went on at MMS. And I'm not surprised that several different people have talked about nightmares. A whole lot of us have Program nightmares. It's a lot like "naked at school" nightmares, except that most people don't ever experience being naked at school, whereas disconcerting Program dreams tend to be about how things really were.

How would you attribute things like that?

Quote
comparing mms to that place is absurd. "


And yet we keep finding similarities in dogma, policies and even lingo. Amazing, isn't it?

We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark.  The real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.  
--Plato

Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Anonymous on May 12, 2005, 07:30:00 PM
Mike Finn was a great man... I got very close to him before I left Montana... he had an extremely tough life before finding recovery and did an amazing job getting through it.  He was never abusive to anyone that I ever witnessed.. He was caring, though sometimes kind of rough around the edges.  He was an extremely honest man and I appreciate his honesty to this day.  Yeah, it got annoying being picked on, but in the end, I learned so much from him.  And I KNOW others agree with me, and I KNOW others don't!  That seems a tricky subject on this forum.  Just dealing with the fact that we all seem to disagree!!
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: katfish on May 12, 2005, 07:47:00 PM
But Sarah, are you suggesting that because the program helped some students, those who felt genuinely harmed should stop being honest about that and essentially, keep their mouths shut ?

I think some girls may feel as if aknowledging that some girls had really awful experiences at MMS can be equated to discounting the program entirely and somehow takes away from what you experienced.  There is a definite sense that these stories of girls feeling mistreated are very threatening to girls who feel MMS is a great program (with some minor flaws that can be ignored) and easily slip into the dismissive rhetoric of how we're just a bunch of disgruntled students bashing MMS who must be somehow fucked up, have unresolved issues, or be otherwise defective b/c we can't accept the program just didn't work for us.  The threat seems to affect the ability to even aknowledge that others had valid different experiences and see things from that angle for a moment, instead of resorting to telling girls to get over it.

  The hostility as well as the lack of empathy has been a wall difficult to penetrate, with the exception of a few girls like Melissa ? and Aya who seem to have a clear pic. of both sidesand don't seem threatened by it one way or the other.
I can only try and put myself in your frame of mind and take a guess at what's going on, perhaps you could share your thoughts with me on that ?
 There are things about MMS that were really cool, and many things that were very uncool and could use improvement, adjustement or entire reworking.  To say that doesn't take away from the fact that there was some positive (or a lot positive for some) and that most of us loved the staff and formed great long-lasting friendships.  
Don't know how much sense this makes- I'm awfully worn out this evening.
kat
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Anonymous on May 12, 2005, 08:03:00 PM
Kat... loved your last post.  You sound truly understanding, sypmathetic, calm, honest... lots of good words.  I just don't think there should be a lawsuit, don't think the school should be shut down.  What do you guys really want as an outcome from a lawsuit?  I haven't had that answered yet.  Do you want money?  Want the school to close?  Because it shouldn't close... it has helped a lot of people, it's different now...  Maybe it should change its approach a little, but that's up for debate... I mean, they work it the way they do because they feel that it's most effective that way, and they have reworked the system.  They were doing it while I was there and have been doing it since.  

So really, what are your expecations in filing a lawsuit??  I honestly want to know, and am not asking it so that I can fight back at you... I really am just curious, maybe I just dont' know much about the law, and suing people and what someone will get out of it.  Personal satisfaction?

Help me out here! :smile:
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: sarahf on May 12, 2005, 08:04:00 PM
i understand what you're saying kat. it's hard for me to hear such venom being spit at a place and people i care so deeply about and i feel a little protective over them. i am willing to accept that there are girls for whom the program didn't work out and who were unhappy about their experience there.
i guess when i found this forum last night i was totally taken aback by all the anger and resentment i read and many of my comments have been reactionary.
i am truly saddened that there are women who felt mistreated and "abused" at mms. i think that the people at mms (or those there when i was) are good people that are doing their best to help a group of troubled girls emerge with more self confidence and self-esteem. mms did that for me.
i have read a lot of back and forth between women discrediting each others experience. and unfortunately i've jumped right into the mix and done the same thing. i'm sorry if i invalidated anyone's feelings about their time during and after mms.
i know it was positive for me, but i also do have nightmares about being sent back. i haven't had one in a while, but they are scarry. i think those dreams have less to do with mms itself than with a time in my life where any control i had was taken away from me. getting "locked up" is not something i would wish on anyone because i do think it has had lasting traumatic effects, even if the experience itself ended up being positive.
-Sarah
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Star on May 12, 2005, 09:56:00 PM
I have a very decent life. I am very honest and aware of who I am today. But In my previous life, even before MMS I was not happy. I was abused, physically, sexually, emotinally, verbally, you name it. When I was sent to MMS I was supposed to get the proper attention and care for the pain that I had been through my entire life. I was extremely traumatized, and vulnerable.I needed understanding. I needed love and attention. I was only 14 years old. My case was extra sensitive, but it made me no more special than anyone. Instead of being understood I was told that I was in complete self-pity. I had been molested and I was told that I was a sex addict. I was abandoned, and I was told that I was ungrateful (because I had been adopted). I was confused, and I was told that I was manipulative.
I was hurting, and I was told that I was fine.
I was angry, and I was told that I was attention seeking.
 There were only about 30 girls there at the time, and I felt like I was always kicked to the side. It was not my job to beg someone to do therapy on me. I was there because they were the therapists or mentors, and I was their client. I was not an adult...I was a little child not even fully developed why should have the waited for me to "step up"..it had been the whole reason why I was sent there in the first place.

I can understand that Mission mountain school might not have been the place for a child with my case....but Mission Mountain School, if it is proffesional, why didn't they just tell my parents that they couln't help me? That they didn't know how to help me? Instead I was labeled a sex addict, an alcoholic, even a drug addict?
I am none of these things..I was mis-diagnosed, and I applied myself to all the "Medications" (as in AA, SLAA, NA meeting..even working all the 12 steps!) So when leaving MMS my problems were maily these false addictions that I had, and my true pain was never really dealt with. Do you want to know the simplest way I fixed myself?  One day I just decided that God would set things straight..and I did not need to keep on analyzing  over and over to detail. There was no point anymore, and that the simplest thing. MMS made me feel insane...as if I was not going to make it in the world. They made me feel like I was an alien. As if I was going to be paralized my entire life.
You know how it would feel if a doctor makes a mistake and tells you you need all these medications to survive, and make sure not to go here and there, and you need to attend all these classes, and deprive yourself of this and that, and tippy toe every where you go because you might die..and then you realize that your real treatment could have been a simple shot on the arm. You feel like a dumbass for ever believing such a dumb doctor, who just wanted to make you do all these things to benefit himself ..., and ofcourse you still hold that grudge years and years after.....well thats how I feel...
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Anonymous on May 14, 2005, 12:39:00 AM
I don't know if I was there when you were, but I agree with a lot of what you are saying, I feel I had a similar experience there.  

Ashlee
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Anonymous on May 14, 2005, 01:03:00 AM
I was there 98-01

If you don't mind me asking...which ashlee is this?
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Antigen on May 14, 2005, 01:09:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-05-12 16:30:00, Anonymous wrote:

He was an extremely honest man and I appreciate his honesty to this day.


How do you know he was honest? Do you have any reference other than him and his wife to verify anything that he told you?

One does not have to appeal to God to set the initial conditions for the creation of the universe, but if one does He would have to act through the laws of physics.
--Stephen Hawking, English scientist

Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Anonymous on May 14, 2005, 01:16:00 AM
Quote
"But Sarah, are you suggesting that because the program helped some students, those who felt genuinely harmed should stop being honest about that and essentially, keep their mouths shut ?


I don't think this is a fair quote... In fact, I think it's almost ironic because not only have YOU and many others on here advocated and been harsh to girls who have posted their positive experiences, but you have essentially "shut them up."  Just because someone had a positive experience does not mean that their post is irrelevant.  I posted on this site because Kathy's "Welcome MMS Alumni!" post encouraged the sharing of both positive AND negative sides.  
I am not going to pretend that I understand the experiences of the girl's who have been harmed. HOWEVER, I am here to give support and unfortunately it seems that the girls who are hurting want nothing to do with girls who aren't in the same boat. I did have a positive experience at MMS and I am not going to pretend otherwise.  Just because my experience there was positive doesn't mean that I haven't had other struggles in my life.... It also doesn't mean that I cannot be there for support and a listening ear.
You said that you feel the girls who had postive experiences "feel as if aknowledging that some girls had really awful experiences at MMS can be equated to discounting the program entirely and somehow takes away from what you experienced."  I don't feel this way at all actually.  In fact, I feel that the girls who had negative experiences don't want to hear the positive.  And that is unfair.  I have never posted a nasty response to someone's negative experience.  I haven't posted a supportive one either, so I will apologize for that.  I will make my support more available to those who want it.  But my hesistance in posting comes from the fact that I feel as if no one wants to hear me.  And just as those girls who feel abused want to be heard, whether it be in a post, a letter to Colleen, or a lawsuit... I WANT TO BE HEARD TOO.  I had a good experience and I don't think there is any shame in that.  What is shameful is that we are at each other's throats because we don't agree on experiences.
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Antigen on May 14, 2005, 01:45:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-05-13 22:16:00, Anonymous wrote:

What is shameful is that we are at each other's throats because we don't agree on experiences.


And what would have happened if these ladies had said back then just what they're saying now? Would you have been at their throats?

The government is much more interested in preserving the purity of its ideology than it is in allowing patients to get effective medicine.
-- Ethan B. Russo, neurologist at Western Montana Clinic

Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Anonymous on May 14, 2005, 05:11:00 PM
oh shit that's insightful.
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Anonymous on May 14, 2005, 07:21:00 PM
Sarah isn't and has been at anyones throat. She is saying it's a shame that people can't just accept each others differences and get over it, I don't see how that is being at anyones throat.

Melissa.

Quote
On 2005-05-13 22:45:00, Antigen wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-05-13 22:16:00, Anonymous wrote:


What is shameful is that we are at each other's throats because we don't agree on experiences.



And what would have happened if these ladies had said back then just what they're saying now? Would you have been at their throats?

The government is much more interested in preserving the purity of its ideology than it is in allowing patients to get effective medicine.
-- Ethan B. Russo, neurologist at Western Montana Clinic


"
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Anonymous on May 14, 2005, 09:08:00 PM
*hasn't

Melissa.
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Anonymous on May 15, 2005, 02:00:00 PM
By the way, it wasn't Sarah that posted that.
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: kerryberry420 on May 15, 2005, 04:29:00 PM
my god this got out of control this has turned into a war between girls each trying to prove that they are right.  that wasn't what this was about at all.  this was ONLY about trying to make legislature that monitors programs more closely.  not just mms, all of them.  the "teen help" industry is the fastest growing industry in the country and programs are popping up everywhere, i persoanlly think there should be an agency created just to monitor these programs.  not something to get in the way of what they are doing but somehting to make sure that the girls (and boys) come first.  sorry i let myself get off of my own topic even, but this was really all i wanted to get across.
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: katfish on May 17, 2005, 09:13:00 PM
where ya been??

it's been brutal out here
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: clairem on May 17, 2005, 10:22:00 PM
Hello,
I am new to this forum, in fact, I have never joined a chat forum, so this is new and obviously i am a bit late for the conversations.  I want to share my perspective.  I attened mms from 94-96.  When I left, I attended college in helena montana with another former student, Elissa.  She and I were extremely close, but there were differences in our experience leaving that school.  For those of you that were there when I was, you probably rememeber how "historic" my workcrew was and how hard John was on me.  I would also like to clear a misconception--just because I am not okay now with mms is NOT my fault, it has taken me years to figure out what exactly was wrong with me.  I entered the school with post-traumatic-stress-disorder from watching my mothers battle and eventual death from cancer. Noone there diagnosed me because they didn't have the knowledge or credentials to.  John so misjudged my character that I was forced to make up stories to satify him, and boy do I have many examples still.  And I did not leave mms and get "fucked up."  I was an active participant of AA for three years and strictly lived by my aftercare plan until my depression became so severe I had to take a good look at my life or I was going to do something drastic.  I am not an alcoholic.  I have been drinking moderately and normally for six years now and have no interest in smoking cigarettes or pot.  THe point I want to make is this.  Yes, some girls did have good experiences there, there were favorites, and sarah dear, you were one of them because you are so "available' and loveable.  I was so emotionally disturbed, they did not have the training to know exactly what was wrong with me and ended up doing far more damage than good--and this is not just opinion, this is coming from my years with Phd therapists, psychics..you name it.  They need to be regulated--especially when dealing with severe problems.  My therapist asked me if I would be interested in a law suit...I don't think that is what I need to do right now...I am tired of living in the nightmares and pain of what was done.  And calling someone a disgusting person IS abuse...allowing a young girl to be in below zero wheather...after I begged at Johns window to come in just to get warm and being denied...IS abuse.  there are facts here...separate from any opinion. ANyway, I hope someone reads this.  do email me personally if you would like. [email protected]
peace.
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: hugakid on May 18, 2005, 12:19:00 AM
Welcome! You have a lot of support here!!!! No doubt about that.  ::drummer::  :wave:

Please, do not pay attention to those who will try to praise MMS, even when they hear how sad some of these girls' stories are.

They'll read your story, as sad as it is, and some of them will still come back around and try to say "rah rah MMS is great. It was good for me. I don't know what I would have done without it."

That's what's happened in the past here and I just do not want you to be discouraged if it happens again. These girls obviously did not have to experience what you did or else they are dilusional. It's one or the other.
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Anonymous on May 18, 2005, 01:49:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-05-17 21:19:00, hugakid wrote:

"Welcome! You have a lot of support here!!!! No doubt about that.  ::drummer::  :wave:



Please, do not pay attention to those who will try to praise MMS, even when they hear how sad some of these girls' stories are.



They'll read your story, as sad as it is, and some of them will still come back around and try to say "rah rah MMS is great. It was good for me. I don't know what I would have done without it."



That's what's happened in the past here and I just do not want you to be discouraged if it happens again. These girls obviously did not have to experience what you did or else they are dilusional. It's one or the other."


First of all, I fully support Claire's experience. She was thoughtful and didn't condemn anyone else. I am NOT one of those people with a good experience at MMS, I am NOT defending the school and don't desire to, but I will defend everyone's right to their own opinion and experience. I may have hated MMS, but some girls I am still friends with loved it. I certainly won't just dismiss them because of a difference in opinion. You Hugakid are absolutely ridiculous. I can't even believe you would say to just ignore people who enjoyed the school and that they are clearly just delusional. Last time I checked, this forum was still for people to discuss and share both negative AND positive experiences without fear of being put down. What you said was just ludicrous and if people should ignore anything it should be you and your silly rant. Hopefully you just chose the wrong words and didn't intend for your post to come off as it did.

Melissa Gower.
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Anonymous on May 18, 2005, 01:54:00 PM
do you ever shut up?
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: katfish on May 18, 2005, 02:03:00 PM
Hey Claire,

Welcome- glad you found this forum.  I'm also glad to hear you have such a supportive PhD that's got your back- i've seen a few in the past but i never spoke of MMS to them.  this forum and my other activities have become a form of therapy for me instead regarding MMS.
Please keep in touch- it's good to hear from old alumni as I have not really heard from that many girls from the past- and even if we never met, i kind of feel as if i know you.

talk to you soon!
kat
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Anonymous on May 18, 2005, 07:02:00 PM
Hey, anon who posted

do you ever shut up?  


Who or what are you directing that to?
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Anonymous on May 18, 2005, 08:18:00 PM
I'm sure they were directing it to me, and you'll be happy to know I do "shut up". I don't talk just to hear myself as some people here apparently do. I don't have time for anonymous bullshit anymore, so if anyone has anything worthwhile to say to me, and they want to stop being a pussy and say their name feel free to email me or message me on AIM. [email protected], AIM name XOWNTHECROWNX. For those of you who are being honest and forthcoming, good luck on whatever it is you plan to do. I hope you are able to find some resolution to whatever is bothering you. You can email me or message me as well if you want any support or just to talk. To anyone else you know where to find me. I'm done with this message board.

Melissa Gower.
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Anonymous on May 18, 2005, 08:37:00 PM
"Please, do not pay attention to those who will try to praise MMS, even when they hear how sad some of these girls' stories are." -Hugakid

I am sitting here with a fellow friend AND student from MMS.  I am so disgusted that you try to shut everyone up who had a good experience.  NONE OF US TRY TO SHUT UP THE GIRLS WITH BAD EXPERIENCES.  We are here to offer support.  Neither I or the girl sitting next to me are going to apologize for having a good experience there.  Why should we?  It helped us to change our lives for the better and now we are both living the lives we deserve.  And most importantly, we are happy.  I would love to offer support, and so would my friend, but its people like you who keep the rivalry between friends going.

And whoever told Melissa to shut up should really take a look at all of her posts.  To this day, she remains a good friend of both of us sitting here and everything she has said on this site is not only insightful, but it is compassionate, supportive and understanding to both sides of this issue.  In addition, she does not remain faceless, but offers her name and information to those seeking her support and friendship.  These are all qualities you don't posess.  Melissa is a strong and good hearted person with a lot to offer and everything she has said has offered friendship and care to people on both sides.

JR and WS.  If you know us, you'll figure it out.
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Anonymous on May 18, 2005, 08:39:00 PM
Woop de woo!  Holla back yall!
Few times we've been arond that track
So it's not just gonna happen like that
Cuz we aint no hollerback girls
We aint no holler back girls

JR and WS :wstupid:
Hollllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllla :smokin:
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: hugakid on May 19, 2005, 12:15:00 AM
There are so many misunderstandings going on in this post it's unbelievable. I came in here and saw how girls bash the others who have sad stories to share. And Claire's was a very sad one. I was only trying to warn her of what to expect. Maybe the wording was not the best, it was late. The intention was simply that, welcome and don't let anyone discourage you from telling your story and don't let them make you feel like you have to defend yourself.

If you read back through many posts you will see where girls who truly had bad experiences are immediately attacked.

Sorry for any misunderstandings.  :nworthy:
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Anonymous on May 19, 2005, 02:23:00 PM
SHUT UP!  

so annoying. IT'S like these annoying jerks that keep on saying "la la la la" every thing is so swell"  while other people are suffering. Like a rich woman bragging to a poor one. WHAT THE HELL DO YOU WANT PRAISE?.


you have no idea what qualities I attain so you have no right to speak of that. I have more knowledge than you can imagine. and yes they way I am acting is not polite, but sometimes you need to tell people the truth in this cold harsh world. Go some where else with your mms praise This forum is no longer about what it was written. It is about what occured at the school which was innapropriate. You all think your so great because you see things "positively" oh god what's the point of you comming back in here anyway? If you agree with the school than that should be the end of it. But obviously you are immature as well as those other who keep on comming back about " :sad: MMS saved my life" I love MMS" why don't you go tell the whole world how great it is. You want to keep on comming back and see how someone responded to your comment ..get a life! We who don't agree are here to get answers, and support....what are you here for..do dance around us with your basket of flowers to say "I LOVE MMS , I LOVE MMS"...JUST SHUT UP.
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Anonymous on May 19, 2005, 06:19:00 PM
Anon-
If you actually read the posts closer of the girl you are saying all this to you would see that she stated that not only did she not defend the school, she also doesn't support it. Her reason for being here didn't seem to be to say how she had a wonderful time and screw everyone else. She seemed to want to try to point something out that is equally as wrong as rubbing a good experience in your face. It seemed she was saying that it's not ok to say that its important to be open and respectful of one side and not the other. Perhaps if you re read what she has to say you will realize your argument against her isn't even arguing against what she said.
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Anonymous on May 19, 2005, 06:43:00 PM
Hi girls,

The sad reality of public forums is that anyone came come here and say anything they want, be it helpeful or hurtful to those who were looking for support in the first place.

Since you can't control what people are saying, and since some are insensitive and downright rude and hurtful, then you may want to look at options so you can still get the support you came for but not have to deal with these insensitive girls.

I learned something recently. If you approach something knowing ahead of time you will get some postive responses and some negative ones, some supportive and some the opposite, then you can be more objective about their responses and ignore them if they are negative.

I think you girls who were harmed should upport one another. If some girls are making you feel bad, hurt, and that they have no sympathy for what you went through, then you might want to consider not reading their posts. Once you start reading and you see where it's headed, move on. At the very least, you may want to consider not engaging in conversation with them any more.

They'll get tired of arguing with themselves.

Let them rant, let them rave.

What possible positive thing could they be trying to accomplish here?

Maybe they're still looking for John's approval.

It's all so sad and such a waste of energy. This is obviously a place where girls wanted to get support and to reunite.

And it can be that, you just have to be realistic and know that some girls will come here and try to discredit your story and those of others.

If you engage, they win. If not, they don't.

Just a suggestion, of course you should do what is right for you. I don't like seeing you girls hurt. This is just another option.

Good luck and don't let them get to you!!
Title: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
Post by: Anonymous on May 20, 2005, 02:51:00 AM
I'm sorry, but where did it say that this was a forum for MMS bashing or praising for that matter. Let's all just accept that we had different ecperiences there, like how we have different lives today. Agree to disagree and remember that we all do have one common denominator, that we went to MMS. So, in that commonality we all have a sliver of the same experience and can support each other because of it. JR