Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Oscar on January 11, 2009, 03:12:23 AM
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For a while we have been working on an extended death list consisting of victims, who lost their lives during a program and victims who died shortly after leaving the program when the PTSD became too much.
Here is our work so far:
Victims in the 1980's (http://http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=Victims_-_1980s)
Victims in the 1990's (http://http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=Victims_-_1990s)
Victims after year 2000 (http://http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=Victims)
If you have comments please state them.
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Can you not use "necktie party" to describe hanging. I understand the language difference, but it sounds very whimsical describing something so serious. Some respect for the dead please.
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Can you not use "necktie party" to describe hanging. I understand the language difference, but it sounds very whimsical describing something so serious. Some respect for the dead please.
OMG..necktie party. Tell me that was unintentional
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Here we never use the S-word. What would the the best compromise if Europeans should read it?
"Hanging", but that sounds like an execution.
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Here we never use the S-word. What would the the best compromise if Europeans should read it?
"Hanging", but that sounds like an execution.
"Hanging" is the english term for death either by hanging yourself or someone forcibly hanging you.
I don't know the s-word?
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While I do appreciate a bit of gallows humor (ha, ha), the use in this context of "necktie party" is grossly inappropriate. Perhaps "sucide by hanging" would be more appropriate. I have no idea what the "s-word" is. Can we not use euphemisms and call a spade a spade here.
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Here we never use the S-word. What would the the best compromise if Europeans should read it?
"Hanging", but that sounds like an execution.
Death by hanging, or self-inflicted hanging, or suicide by hanging
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Might mean s-word might mean suicide.
I about busted a nut laughing when I read the word necktie-party. Though psy makes a good suggestion with suicide by hanging for a suitable replacement.
You crazy Danes!
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"Necktie party" refers to a group of people hanging someone and is therefore incorrect.
Alternative terms that would be appropriate are "did the air tap-dance", "held himself up by his windpipe", "didn't inhale" or the onomatopoeic "gack gack gack".
If the victim is black you can use the words "Strange fruit" or "Autoklanned"
i hope this has been instructive.
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I guess that we have to end up with "Death by hanging" because any indication about self-inflicted would not be fair when we dont know what did happen. All we know is how they were found.
Lets take a typical case at a Three springs detention center. A boy is found with a leather belt around his neck (http://http://www.columbiatribune.com/2001/Sep/20010914News014.asp). How did he get the leather belt? Did he squeeze himself through the bars, took the belt and squeezed himself back so he could hang himself? I have not heard of any prison allowing inmates to wear a belt.
The night staff saw nothing, because they were as all night staff or dorm parents. If they are not sleeping they are watching TV all night or playing video games, if they are not having sex (Genders means nothing here). A lot of the cases are soon forgotten when it comes to an investigation. The lawyers come in an start talking settlement stressing all, so they write it up as suicide.
I remember a story my now late uncle told me. He was in the law-enforcement in Sweden, but visited colluages in Missouri. While he was down there he was called out to a water-mill where they had emptied a lake in order to do a repair. They found a black dude with chains wrapped around him and a pieces of a rope around his neck and a gunshoot wound in his leg. As the sheriff said: "It was the most perfect suicide, he had seen".
Would it be fair to just accept what is the official result of the investigation?
I also spoke with Wiki Researcher. I can reveal that while he is living in Denmark, he has been around selling goat cheese in some exotic countries (huge business - believe it or not). As he has some experience in suspension hangings he tells: "When the person is hoisted, they experience a sharp pain in their neck. They hear their own heart pounding and their lungs crumple like a paper bag everytime they breath out. The feel their body become heavy and even with untied hands they are not able to loosen the noose. The pain becomes unbearable, but while they feel it like an eternity, the person looses consciousness in about a minute. There is a little kicking. That's where the party term comes from. Normally the crowd is exited." Apparently it is possible to interview survivors because their laws enable people to stop the execution while it is ongoing by paying compensation to the family of the victim. He has been around with the checkbook to save local employees out in the villages. Money talks everywhere.
But as stated above, we will change the sentence on the pages.
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I'm wondering, do you get permission from the families to use their dead kids to promote an agenda?
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I'm wondering, do you get permission from the families to use their dead kids to promote an agenda?
Some of the families post here. Our "agenda" is the same as theirs. Cynthia Harvey once said she wanted to see teen programs go the way of child sweat shops. The only way to do that is to get people's attention.
The shared "agenda" is no more abused and dead kids. I haven't spoken with the parent of a child killed in a program who wanted to see more kids die. Look over those kids names again, a lot of their parents are very active in fighting the TTI, some spoke during the GAO hearings. You're the only person to take issue with the victims' pictures being used. No one from the victims' families has taken offense. Quite the opposite.
Would you prefer that these "dead kids" and the horrible ways they died be swept under a rug and forgotten?
You probably do, unfortunately. Do the kids' faces trouble your conscience? Hope so.
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Lets take a typical case at a Three springs detention center. A boy is found with a leather belt around his neck (http://http://www.columbiatribune.com/2001/Sep/20010914News014.asp). How did he get the leather belt? Did he squeeze himself through the bars, took the belt and squeezed himself back so he could hang himself? I have not heard of any prison allowing inmates to wear a belt.
I'd wage to guess that the boy was issued the belt upon arrival.
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I'm wondering, do you get permission from the families to use their dead kids to promote an agenda?
No, we didn't. However all the dead kids are on several lists already. Teen advocates list is properly the most well-known but there are 3-4 more as you can see in the lists references. Second of all the media has written about them and we are only quoting articles already online.
There are some, who is listed as unknown. I guess that a part of the settlement the parents have made is that they are so ashamed of their own flesh and blood that they just want to forget they ever had him or her. If I lost a kid, I would shout out in the world until it is known how it did happen. Even if it did happen in traffic where we accept that mobility has a price of death.
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I'm wondering, do you get permission from the families to use their dead kids to promote an agenda?
Perhaps the REAL question is: do YOU have an agenda which entails stifling that sort of information?
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I'm wondering, do you get permission from the families to use their dead kids to promote an agenda?
No, we didn't. However all the dead kids are on several lists already. Teen advocates list is properly the most well-known but there are 3-4 more as you can see in the lists references. Second of all the media has written about them and we are only quoting articles already online.
There are some, who is listed as unknown. I guess that a part of the settlement the parents have made is that they are so ashamed of their own flesh and blood that they just want to forget they ever had him or her. If I lost a kid, I would shout out in the world until it is known how it did happen. Even if it did happen in traffic where we accept that mobility has a price of death.
thank you
of course, the families wants in this are irrelevant.
it's not about them its about the kids
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http://74.125.45.132/search?q=cache:O2x ... cd=5&gl=us (http://74.125.45.132/search?q=cache:O2xfsIkt8OcJ:www.teenliberty.org/RMA.htm+hanged+Cedu+john&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us)
you missed a number of cedu deaths. the above is about a boy who hung himself. There is a woman here who says her daughter hanged herself largely because of CEDU. Go througth the forum you will find others
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There are some, who is listed as unknown. I guess that a part of the settlement the parents have made is that they are so ashamed of their own flesh and blood that they just want to forget they ever had him or her. If I lost a kid, I would shout out in the world until it is known how it did happen. Even if it did happen in traffic where we accept that mobility has a price of death.
If you had ever lost a child thru suicide you may understand a little better. Many families do not want their loved ones pictures and names placed on the internet to support each and every individual’s agendas.
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There is no agenda other than to notify other parents of the deaths so that this sort of thing is less likely to happen again. "Individual agendas" implies something sinister, when there really isn't here. The deaths listed are a matter of public record, anyway. If the parents didn't want their kids deaths listed, maybe they should contact us individually and make a plea for the name of their child to be taken down. If that ever happened, it would be considered. I doubt that would ever happen, however, as another poster has noted on this thread, most (if not all) parents who have lost their kids to this industry are very much in support of warning other parent away from the same danger that took the lives of their children prematurely. If that is an "agenda", I think it's one everybody can accept.
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I'm wondering, do you get permission from the families to use their dead kids to promote an agenda?
No, we didn't. However all the dead kids are on several lists already. Teen advocates list is properly the most well-known but there are 3-4 more as you can see in the lists references. Second of all the media has written about them and we are only quoting articles already online.
There are some, who is listed as unknown. I guess that a part of the settlement the parents have made is that they are so ashamed of their own flesh and blood that they just want to forget they ever had him or her. If I lost a kid, I would shout out in the world until it is known how it did happen. Even if it did happen in traffic where we accept that mobility has a price of death.
thank you
of course, the families wants in this are irrelevant.
it's not about them its about the kids
If you bother to read the links in the references, you will find article after article with parents, who want safety and that is shouldn't happen for other parents and their kid - of course.
Of course I cannot interview the mother who took her own life and the life of the remaining son due to grief after a lost son, but I think that even she would acknowledge the need for these deaths to stop, even now where she is in a better place.
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http://74.125.45.132/search?q=cache:O2xfsIkt8OcJ:www.teenliberty.org/RMA.htm+hanged+Cedu+john&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us
you missed a number of cedu deaths. the above is about a boy who hung himself. There is a woman here who says her daughter hanged herself largely because of CEDU. Go througth the forum you will find others
We will continue our investigation and have alerted other boards as well.
The boy who was found hanging from a waterpipe in the ceiling is mentioned on the 1990 subpage. On a parent board a volunteer from spft asked a parent to look for the pipe (http://http://www.conductdisorders.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21025) as I have been told that they didn't fix it because they wanted to remind themselves to keep eye on the kids instead of just warehousing them (According to our sources the pipe was still bend in 2005).
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"of course, the families wants in this are irrelevant."
who gets to decide that then? So anyone can pick apart the corpse once it stops breathing? the family doesnt have a say? youve lost touch
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"of course, the families wants in this are irrelevant."
who gets to decide that then? So anyone can pick apart the corpse once it stops breathing? the family doesnt have a say? youve lost touch
Is there a specific case you have issues with? Why is this such a problem?
On another note, what happens when the family does not want to acknowledge the suicide or untimely death, yet other kids who were there...know better?
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"of course, the families wants in this are irrelevant."
who gets to decide that then? So anyone can pick apart the corpse once it stops breathing? the family doesnt have a say? youve lost touch
Is there a specific case you have issues with? Why is this such a problem?
On another note, what happens when the family does not want to acknowledge the suicide or untimely death, yet other kids who were there...know better?
Know better about what? They may have a child who took their own life and sometimes this is very painful, a problem they had been dealing with for years or mental illness that runs in the family and not something the family wants all over the internet.
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Know better about what? They may have a child who took their own life and sometimes this is very painful, a problem they had been dealing with for years or mental illness that runs in the family and not something the family wants all over the internet.
^^^^ Now here is a real responsible program parent! Kid is dealing with mental illness for years and they send him to program. I take it that didn't work out too well. You have my condolences.
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Know better about what? They may have a child who took their own life and sometimes this is very painful, a problem they had been dealing with for years or mental illness that runs in the family and not something the family wants all over the internet.
^^^^ Now here is a real responsible program parent! Kid is dealing with mental illness for years and they send him to program. I take it that didn't work out too well. You have my condolences.
So you see if you were not aware of this you would have blamed the program for this child death when it may be caused by a genetic history. I believe you have good intentions but you cannot make assumptions.
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Know better about what? They may have a child who took their own life and sometimes this is very painful, a problem they had been dealing with for years or mental illness that runs in the family and not something the family wants all over the internet.
^^^^ Now here is a real responsible program parent! Kid is dealing with mental illness for years and they send him to program. I take it that didn't work out too well. You have my condolences.
So you see if you were not aware of this you would have blamed the program for this child death when it may be caused by a genetic history. I believe you have good intentions but you cannot make assumptions.
What kind of parents would send a child to a program, knowing he was mentally unstable? I would blame the program and the parents.
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Know better about what? They may have a child who took their own life and sometimes this is very painful, a problem they had been dealing with for years or mental illness that runs in the family and not something the family wants all over the internet.
^^^^ Now here is a real responsible program parent! Kid is dealing with mental illness for years and they send him to program. I take it that didn't work out too well. You have my condolences.
So you see if you were not aware of this you would have blamed the program for this child death when it may be caused by a genetic history. I believe you have good intentions but you cannot make assumptions.
What kind of parents would send a child to a program, knowing he was mentally unstable? I would blame the program and the parents.
So now we can blame the parents and the school. If we were a group who disapproved of psychiatry then we could blame the doctor who prescribed the antidepressants or the boyfriend/girlfriend who wrote the letter saying they wanted to break up or the friend in group who called them out on their homosexuality. Maybe the grandparents for passing down the gene which predisposed the poor child and wrote the death sentence to begin with.
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Know better about what? They may have a child who took their own life and sometimes this is very painful, a problem they had been dealing with for years or mental illness that runs in the family and not something the family wants all over the internet.
^^^^ Now here is a real responsible program parent! Kid is dealing with mental illness for years and they send him to program. I take it that didn't work out too well. You have my condolences.
So you see if you were not aware of this you would have blamed the program for this child death when it may be caused by a genetic history. I believe you have good intentions but you cannot make assumptions.
What kind of parents would send a child to a program, knowing he was mentally unstable? I would blame the program and the parents.
So now we can blame the parents and the school. If we were a group who disapproved of psychiatry then we could blame the doctor who prescribed the antidepressants or the boyfriend/girlfriend who wrote the letter saying they wanted to break up or the friend in group who called them out on their homosexuality. Maybe the grandparents for passing down the gene which predisposed the poor child and wrote the death sentence to begin with.
oh for godsakes this is ridiculous. do you people ever get tired of trolling fornits? We get it you LOVE programs. You make LOTS of money off of them. What is your purpose in coming here? Just to screw with our heads a tiny pit more after destroying our souls? Want to hurt one more CEDU survivor one more time, for the memories?
"programs" torture and brainwash the "poor child" after abducting and imprisoning the “poor child” without due process or habeas corpus. They cause or are a causative factor in the "poor child's suicide" whatever his or her genetic history.
The agenda is showing enough respect for the kid not to let their MURDER be overlooked and hold the MURDERERS accountable a tiny way.
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Now... WHO might be so obsessive? Methinks there is a particular parent, thinking about a particular child, at the root of all this recent exchange.
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^^^^ Now here is a real responsible program parent! Kid is dealing with mental illness for years and they send him to program. I take it that didn't work out too well. You have my condolences.
So you see if you were not aware of this you would have blamed the program for this child death when it may be caused by a genetic history. I believe you have good intentions but you cannot make assumptions.
What kind of parents would send a child to a program, knowing he was mentally unstable? I would blame the program and the parents.
So now we can blame the parents and the school. If we were a group who disapproved of psychiatry then we could blame the doctor who prescribed the antidepressants or the boyfriend/girlfriend who wrote the letter saying they wanted to break up or the friend in group who called them out on their homosexuality. Maybe the grandparents for passing down the gene which predisposed the poor child and wrote the death sentence to begin with.
oh for godsakes this is ridiculous. do you people ever get tired of trolling fornits? We get it you LOVE programs. You make LOTS of money off of them. What is your purpose in coming here? Just to screw with our heads a tiny pit more after destroying our souls? Want to hurt one more CEDU survivor one more time, for the memories?
"programs" torture and brainwash the "poor child" after abducting and imprisoning the “poor child” without due process or habeas corpus. They cause or are a causative factor in the "poor child's suicide" whatever his or her genetic history.
The agenda is showing enough respect for the kid not to let their MURDER be overlooked and hold the MURDERERS accountable a tiny way.
Ah, Yes, We are a “program” hate site, so the “anti psychiatrists” or “parent haters” cant have his/her corpse this time. We can blame the program for not screening their calls and letters properly and allowing that one letter to get thru which told the kid of the news of the break up of the parents marriage by and uncle or the girlfriend who was unfaithful and wanted to break-up. Maybe blame the staff for missing that one letter that got thru which contained some ecstasy which turned out to be a not-so-good combination with the prescribed anti-depressants. Or the unscreened letter from uncle Mel who threatened to expose the kids homosexuality if he ever mentions a word to anyone while in program. Should we all sue the program for not properly screening the kids calls and letters?
Why did that child take his/hers own life? Do we know? How can we better protect the next child? Blame the parents? The grandparents for passing along the gene? Blame the staff for caving in and giving the kid an unscreened letter or phone call? Should he be fired or put in jail? What should a parent do?
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9/10
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9/10 just doesn't say it like your troll-o-meter used to say it.
I'll confess.. i miss that thing.
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Know better about what? They may have a child who took their own life and sometimes this is very painful, a problem they had been dealing with for years or mental illness that runs in the family and not something the family wants all over the internet.
considering most programs say that if the child has a mental illness they are disqualified from the program (most of the contracts that i have read have this Claus) than it is bad parenting. read what you sign and maybe the child would still be alive.
from enrolment forum to spring creek lodge.
"As a result, the Sponsors understand that the Spring Creek Lodge Academy is not recommended or equipped to
provide services for students that are: suicidal, psychotic, violent, assaultive, diabetic, schizophrenic,
borderline personality disorder, severely dyslexic, illiterate, highly depressed, or have very low IQ,
serious health problems, traumatic brain injury or any significant behavior, mental or emotional
problems"
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Yeah... but on the flip side, how many kids did you know who were not suicidal before program but became suicidal in program?
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Yeah... but on the flip side, how many kids did you know who were not suicidal before program but became suicidal in program?
true. and here again if they had trained staff to spot the signs of a suicidal child than the child would have to be removed from the program. and any one should know that if someone says they intend to harm themselves (such as letters home, telling staff, etc...) it should be taken as fact until proven otherwise. so here again unqualified staff is one of the problems, as well as parents not listening to their child. that is why i have little sympathy for the parents who lost their child. had they listened to the child and what they were saying in their letters they would still be here.
the contract clearly states suicidal tendency are a reason not to have the child there and if the child says it in a letter it is a suicidal tendency and reason for the program, let alone the parent, to remove the student.
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You can point a finger at the parents or staff or program but at least they tried to get the kid some help. Maybe it was the wrong help or did not work but they cared. Look at all the kids who take their own lives who had parents who never did anything to try to help them, if we don’t have sympathy for those program parents we should deffinately not have any for those parents who do nothing. Programs could hold these photos and lists up to parents and say this is what happens if you turn your back on your child and not listen to the warning signs.
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Yeah... but on the flip side, how many kids did you know who were not suicidal before program but became suicidal in program?
Well, ME, for one.. But then, I started my introduction to the wonderful world of programs at age 14. Perhaps such latent desires for self-destruction had not manifested themselves yet.
But seriously, it was programs that killed my hope for the future, and it was what happened to me in a program that caused me to to attempt suicide a few years after I was out. I doubt I would have felt that same degree of desperation otherwise. Public schools just don't practice victimization and then brainwashing to cover their tracks like programs do. They just don't have that ideology organized, even if one particular depraved person happens to be that way.
Programs turned out to be a very unsafe place in my case.
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Yeah, you nailed it. It is elusive and individualized. Some kids go down hill after entering program and others don’t survive very long being victimized in a public school setting. The people overseeing these kids need to better read the warning signs or get better training. Suicide is a problem nationally, not just a program issue.
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You can point a finger at the parents or staff or program but at least they tried to get the kid some help. Maybe it was the wrong help or did not work but they cared. Look at all the kids who take their own lives who had parents who never did anything to try to help them, if we don’t have sympathy for those program parents we should deffinately not have any for those parents who do nothing. Programs could hold these photos and lists up to parents and say this is what happens if you turn your back on your child and not listen to the warning signs.
or the parent could have helped the child through AMA certified programs and not back woods snake oil programs. sure dont listen to what medical professionals say. go with an off the wall program.
http://www.grmc.com/adam/Health%20Illus ... /1/001537/ (http://www.grmc.com/adam/Health%20Illustra...pedia/1/001537/)
Oppositional defiant disorder
Definition
Oppositional defiant disorder is a pattern of disobedient, hostile, and defiant behavior toward authority figures. To fit this diagnosis, the pattern must persist for at least 6 months and must go beyond the bounds of normal childhood misbehavior.
Causes
This disorder is more prevalent in boys than girls. Some studies have shown that 20% of the school-age population is affected. However, most experts believe this figure is inflated due to changing cultural definitions of normal childhood behavior, and other possible biases including racial, cultural, and gender biases.
This behavior typically starts by age 8. The cause of this disorder is unknown, and may be due to a combination of biology and parenting or environmental factors.
Symptoms
* Arguing with adults
* Loss of temper
* Angry and resentful of others
* Actively defies adults' requests
* Spiteful or vindictive behavior
* Blames others for own mistakes
* Is touchy or easily annoyed
* Few or no friends or loss of previous friends
* Constant trouble in school
Exams and Tests
The pattern of behaviors must be distinguished from what is commonly observed in other children of similar age and developmental level, and must result in significant social or academic problems.
Evaluation by a psychiatrist or psychologist may be recommended. In children and adolescents, depression and attention-deficit /hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) may cause similar disturbances in behavior, and should be considered as alternate or additional diagnoses.
Treatment
The best treatment for the child is individual psychotherapy. The parents should also learn behavioral management skills. Medication may be helpful if the behaviors occur in the course of another condition (such as depression, childhood psychosis, or ADHD).
Punitive treatments like boot camps and "behavioral modification" schools which restrict contact with parents, and place the child among other disturbed children, can do more harm than good.
Outlook (Prognosis)
The outcome varies. Some children respond well to treatment.
Possible Complications
In a significant proportion of cases, the adult condition of conduct disorder can be traced back to the presence of oppositional defiant disorder in childhood.
When to Contact a Medical Professional
Call your health care provider if you have concerns about your child's development or behavior.
Prevention
Consistency in rules and fair consequences should be practiced in the child's home. Punishments should not be overly harsh or inconsistently applied.
Appropriate behaviors should be modeled by the adults in the household. Abuse and neglect increase the chances that this condition will occur.
and here is another one
http://www.yourhealthconnection.com/topic/adam1000919 (http://www.yourhealthconnection.com/topic/adam1000919)
Definition
Conduct disorder, a disorder of childhood and adolescence, involves chronic behavior problems, such as defiant, impulsive, or antisocial behavior; drug use; or criminal activity.
Causes, incidence, and risk factors
Conduct disorder has been associated with family conflicts, child abuse, poverty, genetic defects, and parental drug addiction or alcoholism. The diagnosis is more common among boys and is estimated to be as high as 10%.
However, because many of the qualities necessary to make the diagnosis (such as "defiance" and "rule breaking") can be subjective, it is hard to know how common the disorder really is. For accurate diagnosis, the behavior must be far more extreme than simple adolescent rebellion or boyish exuberance.
Conduct disorder is often associated with attention-deficit disorder, and the two together carry a major risk for alcohol and/or other drug dependence.
Children with conduct disorder tend to be impulsive, difficult to control, and unconcerned about the feelings of others.
Symptoms
* Cruel or aggressive behavior toward people and animals
* Destruction of property, including fire setting
* Lying, truancy, running away
* Vandalism, theft
* Heavy drinking and/or heavy illicit drug use
* Breaking rules without apparent reason
* Antisocial behaviors, such as bullying and fighting
Signs and tests
Some of the common signs of conduct disorder are bullying, fighting and staying out at night without concern for curfew or other limits. These children often make no effort to hide their aggressive behaviors and have difficulty making close friends. The diagnosis is made on the basis of a history of these kinds of behaviors.
Treatment
Successful treatment requires close involvement of the child's family. Parents can learn techniques to help manage their child's problem behavior. In cases of abuse, the child may need to be removed from the family and placed in a less chaotic environment. Treatment with medications or talk therapy may be used for depression and attention-deficit disorder, which commonly accompany conduct disorder.
Many "behavioral modification" schools, "wilderness programs," and "boot camps" are sold to parents as solutions for conduct disorder. These may use a form of "attack therapy" or "confrontation," which can actually be harmful. There is no research support for such techniques. Research suggests that treating children at home, along with their families, is more effective.
If you are considering an inpatient program, be sure to check it out thoroughly. Serious injuries and deaths have been associated with some programs, which are not regulated in many states.
Expectations (prognosis)
Children who have severe or frequent symptoms tend to have the poorest prognosis. Expectations are also worse for those who have other illnesses such as mood and drug abuse disorders.
Complications
Children with conduct disorder may go on to develop personality disorders as adults, particularly antisocial personality disorder. As their behaviors worsen, these individuals may also develop significant drug and legal problems.
Calling your health care provider
See your health care provider if your child seems to be overly aggressive, is bullying others, is being victimized, or continually gets in trouble. Early treatment may help.
Prevention
The sooner the treatment for conduct disorder is started, the more likely the child will learn adaptive behaviors and prevent some of the potential complications.
Review date: 11/15/2006
Reviewed By: Paul Ballas, D.O., Department of Psychiatry, Thomas Jefferson University Hospital, Philadelphia, PA. Review provided by VeriMed Healthcare Network.
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Many (but not all) "behavioral modification" schools, "wilderness programs," and "boot camps" are sold to parents as solutions for conduct disorder. These may (or may not) use a form of "attack therapy" or "confrontation," which can (but not always) actually be harmful. There is no research support for such techniques. Research suggests that treating children at home, along with their families, is more effective.
When treatment at home fails then parents are encouraged not to give up on their child and to start thinking about treatment outside of the home.
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Many (but not all) "behavioral modification" schools, "wilderness programs," and "boot camps" are sold to parents as solutions for conduct disorder. These may (or may not) use a form of "attack therapy" or "confrontation," which can (but not always) actually be harmful. There is no research support for such techniques. Research suggests that treating children at home, along with their families, is more effective.
When treatment at home fails then parents are encouraged not to give up on their child and to start thinking about treatment outside of the home.
Shut your goddam piehole! Let's start thinking about treatment for YOU!!! :twofinger:
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Bullying and other issues, which may cause students to fail in the ordinary school settings are issues the schools should fight instead of expelling the students becoming victims of it. The crown princess in Denmark is the front figure in a national campaign against bullying in the public school system here in Denmark.
If I take the local school my kids are attending, they have:
1) Educated students in form 8 and 9 educated in crisis management between students. They carry orange vests and negociate peace when students turn to fight so the teachers can use the time to do what they are paid for - to teach!
2) Every school as of 2008 are required to have 3 teachers in the socalled Activity-contact-comfort unit. It is a unit which takes of the social environment inside the school system. Are the parents happy? Do they know each other? Are the students happy?
If a student gets out of control, they dont call the police unless we are talking students above 15 years of age. They can be sent home and the parents can be informed. Also truancy and runaway children are not something the child is punished for by the system. The parents can get a fine but thats it. Education is a gift. If people won't take an education. (20 percent aged 18 have not), they can get a McJob career. We have a education system for adults who realize their mistake when they grow up they can attend in the evening. They are offering all forms down to 6. It is quite common for middle aged people with Dyslexia to receive education while they are adults because they were regarded unruly in their childhood. Now where we know what the problem is, they can get the education they were cheated from.
Then there is the medication. I believe that a lot of behavior problems is caused by overmedication. In Denmark the percentage of the population on medication is only 1/10 of the States. ADHD is rarely treated before school because we have the wood kindergartens (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_kindergarten). A voilent pre-school kid would end up being send to this ourdoor daycare where stress is low.
We have our continuation school which is close to your TBS. They are less restricted and often the students have cell phones. When I drive to our department in Jutland, I can observe a group of teens standing on a hill nearby because it is the only place near the school they can get a signal. Often a teacher is also standing in the same spot trying to phone privately.
We have 7 closed TBS's where there is room for 191 "students". People have to commit a crime to be there. I have a link to one of them here (http://http://nyhederne.tv2.dk/krimi/article.php/id-18675296.html).
We know that people become institutionalized when they are being kept in a boarding school or in a TBS. That's why it is avoided as much as possible. People may not die in a TBS, but there is huge risk of them failing returning to society regardless of how wellrun the TBS is. The aftercare process are even more important than the treatment given during a stay.
Thats why we choosed to look for deaths after leaving a TBS. This area is ignored. Look at this thread about a 17 year old girl (http://http://www.conductdisorders.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21703). Now she only functions well inside a jail after 3 stays at RTC's.
Bottom line - my point is: If there is problems with the ordinary school, the ordinary school system has to change. However, that's not what we are dealing with on this board.
If a decent un-programming system has to be be established in order to save lives, we have to chart the deaths so we can see how huge the problem is. That's a valid reason for the death lists. And don't think that that the parents are not covered with grief due to the death of their child. I bet that they are ready to pay whatever money they have just to be able to turn the clock back and choose otherwise. Unfortunately it can not be done.
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Yeah, but what's your point?
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If a decent un-programming system has to be be established in order to save lives, we have to chart the deaths so we can see how huge the problem is. That's a valid reason for the death lists. And don't think that that the parents are not covered with grief due to the death of their child. I bet that they are ready to pay whatever money they have just to be able to turn the clock back and choose otherwise. Unfortunately it can not be done.
I believe this too. If just a list of kids deaths is developed we would never know how large of a problem it is. Your idea of charting is a good one so it can be compared to non programs.
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Not so fast, 1 death is too many but if the program has a suicide and the local school district has had many then the program would be considered a safer place. So just running a list of names is meaningless. How many names do we need to show that programs are unsafe? Then we need to factor in that the local school district is random where the kids in program are a select group. So programs would be expected to have a higher rate of suicide or attempts. Maybe this is true maybe not?
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Not so fast, 1 death is too many but if the program has a suicide and the local school district has had many then the program would be considered a safer place. So just running a list of names is meaningless. How many names do we need to show that programs are unsafe? Then we need to factor in that the local school district is random where the kids in program are a select group. So programs would be expected to have a higher rate of suicide or attempts. Maybe this is true maybe not?"
Why don't you just bring up that hokey fraudulent little table once again, boy. Its been a while, and we know you just can't help yourself.
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Not so fast, 1 death is too many but if the program has a suicide and the local school district has had many then the program would be considered a safer place. So just running a list of names is meaningless. How many names do we need to show that programs are unsafe? Then we need to factor in that the local school district is random where the kids in program are a select group. So programs would be expected to have a higher rate of suicide or attempts. Maybe this is true maybe not?
It would be great comparing the # of kids who kill themselves due to induced mental illness and deliberately induced social margalinization to the # of suicides in kids from public schools, or even psychiatric hospitals. You will see a rate easily 2,000 times higher in victims of the American Gulags
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Not so fast, 1 death is too many but if the program has a suicide and the local school district has had many then the program would be considered a safer place. So just running a list of names is meaningless. How many names do we need to show that programs are unsafe? Then we need to factor in that the local school district is random where the kids in program are a select group. So programs would be expected to have a higher rate of suicide or attempts. Maybe this is true maybe not?
It would be great comparing the # of kids who kill themselves due to induced mental illness and deliberately induced social margalinization to the # of suicides in kids from public schools, or even psychiatric hospitals. You will see a rate easily 2,000 times higher in victims of the American Gulags
It would be. each category could be defined, social marginalization, bullying, history of mental illness in family, induced by teacher/staff, depression meds, program, private school, abused at home etc.
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Not so fast, 1 death is too many but if the program has a suicide and the local school district has had many then the program would be considered a safer place. So just running a list of names is meaningless. How many names do we need to show that programs are unsafe? Then we need to factor in that the local school district is random where the kids in program are a select group. So programs would be expected to have a higher rate of suicide or attempts. Maybe this is true maybe not?
the # of suicides in kids from public schools, or even psychiatric hospitals. You will see a rate easily 2,000 times higher in victims of the American Gulags
It would be. each category could be defined, social marginalization, bullying, history of mental illness in family, induced by teacher/staff, depression meds, program, private school, abused at home etc.
Let me correctively specify I meant "It would be great comparing the # of kids who kill themselves due to induced mental illness and deliberately induced social margalinization" by the American Gulags.
Its easy to say why someone killed themself if they were in a Gulag like CEDU or Elan. It would be harder to determine why kids commit suicide when they are not in these institutions. Abusive parents rarely say that they were abusive, and even kid's suicide notes aren't always reliable because they are often reflections of their induced self-hatred and appeals for love based on what they think people want to hear
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Look at all the kids who take their own lives who had parents who never did anything to try to help them, if we don’t have sympathy for those program parents we should deffinately not have any for those parents who do nothing.
Bullshit. Doing nothing is far less dangerous than sending a kid to a re-education camp.
I thought shoving my daughter off a cliff might keep her from taking drugs, so I pushed her. At least I tried, right?
::)
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:agree:
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Its easy to say why someone killed themself if they were in a Gulag like CEDU or Elan. It would be harder to determine why kids commit suicide when they are not in these institutions. Abusive parents rarely say that they were abusive, and even kid's suicide notes aren't always reliable because they are often reflections of their induced self-hatred and appeals for love based on what they think people want to hear
I see what you are saying and there lies the problem. How do we compare the number of suicides in and out of program? We cant rely on staff, parents or kids notes to understand why because they may be lying or not have a clear understanding of the child so the results would be unclear.
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Its easy to say why someone killed themself if they were in a Gulag like CEDU or Elan. It would be harder to determine why kids commit suicide when they are not in these institutions. Abusive parents rarely say that they were abusive, and even kid's suicide notes aren't always reliable because they are often reflections of their induced self-hatred and appeals for love based on what they think people want to hear
I see what you are saying and there lies the problem. How do we compare the number of suicides in and out of program? We cant rely on staff, parents or kids notes to understand why because they may be lying or not have a clear understanding of the child so the results would be unclear.
Comparing suicide/death rates in public schools/kids on the outside with suicide rates during and post residential treatment is apples and oranges. Programees love to use the comparison of public school deaths vs. program deaths because they can present numbers without explaining the difference in population of the two groups, with the free kids in public schools greatly outnumbering those in institutions. Percentages based on the population of each group would offer (somewhat) more valid info and the results would cause programees to never use this ridiculous argument again. Parents pay out obscene amounts and often sign custody over to programs for the explicit purpose of saving their child from "death or jail". Unlike public school kids, kids in programs are supposed to be under constant supervision. Why? Because parents are paying the programs to keep the kid safe and away from the hazards causing problems on the outside. Public schools don't have enough people or resources to provide constant supervision during school, and after school it's the parents' task to oversee their children. How many programs claim a low staff-to-patient ratio to encourage parents to believe their child is constantly monitored? Try this: call a random program and talk to admissions. Ask if the program will be a safer environment for your child than public school. Bet any program will tell you "yes", so these tiresome comparisons of public schools vs. private programs don't have any validity.
Don't believe some stranger with dubious credentials in an RTC telling you your child is lying. Who knows your kid better, you or the quack? Not reporting your child's allegations of abuse is a crime, regardless of what the program says about "manipulation". Parents should be held accountable for criminal failure to report child abuse - so should the programs.
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I see what you are saying and there lies the problem. How do we compare the number of suicides in and out of program? We cant rely on staff, parents or kids notes to understand why because they may be lying or not have a clear understanding of the child so the results would be unclear.
We've heard this same line of "reasoning" so many times before...
Why is Hooter so obsessed with the Victim's List?
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Dance monkeys, DANCE!
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Dance monkeys, DANCE!
:roflmao: :roflmao: :agree: :rocker: :rofl: :jerry: :beat: :beat: :feedtrolls: :roflmao: :tup: :tup:
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Rotsne has the flu, so I went looking for data about Jerry McLaurin, who died November 2, 1999.
Instead our search found records of a death not on the list:
Look at this case, which is called:
SUSIE LEMOINE, ON BEHALF OF ANDREW EST. OF LEMOINE, INDIVIDUALLY AND AS PERSONAL REPRESENTATIVE OF THE ESTATE OF ANDREW LEMOINE, DECEASED, PLAINTIFF-APPELLEE,
v.
NEW HORIZONS RANCH AND CENTER, INC., ET AL., DEFENDANTS, PAUL SCOTT; KELLY HUTCHINSON; AND WAYNE HAIRGROVE, DEFENDANTS-APPELLANTS
Does this case qualify for the list?
http://http://cases.justia.com/us-court-of-appeals/F3/174/629/518999/
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What if I were to suggest that the ones who were killed, were the lucky ones. How does that statement make you feel? Please think about it for a few minutes before answering.
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What if I were to suggest that the ones who were killed, were the lucky ones. How does that statement make you feel? Please think about it for a few minutes before answering.
as much as i hate to say it i agree. when the girl killed herself at TB when i was there the only thing i could think of was that at least she no longer had to deal with the pain and suffering that TB gave everyone.
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Its easy to say why someone killed themself if they were in a Gulag like CEDU or Elan. It would be harder to determine why kids commit suicide when they are not in these institutions. Abusive parents rarely say that they were abusive, and even kid's suicide notes aren't always reliable because they are often reflections of their induced self-hatred and appeals for love based on what they think people want to hear
I see what you are saying and there lies the problem. How do we compare the number of suicides in and out of program? We cant rely on staff, parents or kids notes to understand why because they may be lying or not have a clear understanding of the child so the results would be unclear.
YES but you have some illustrative hard data. When it's shown program victims commit suicide at rates 3000 times higher than non-program alumni, there's an indication programs caused the massive suicide rates, especially couples with victims testimony of the "treatment" alloted in Cultic-Gulags.
There have been studies on this on Canadian victims of brainwashing (govt. testing). Their damage was so severe a large percentage became permanently grossly disabled, "childlike."
So, high suicide rates in states-site victims of brainwashing(cedu, elan, desisto victims) would be in in accordance with their prognosis. Especially kids in a long time, from an early age who weren't granted a lot post-program support (and considering the sort of "parents" who lock their kids up, that's most of them) and who couldn't "manipulate" the system (save themselves from attack by forming self-serving alliences)
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I think long periods of being in a program do a lot of damage. Especially when you are talking about several years. I also think some programs target specific students for more abuse, and when the others get a lot less, the singled out one is apt to go more crazy than he might have had the abuse been more "democratic." There is less chance of ever getting any validation for one's suffering later on down the road. The others would very much prefer to think that he or she had it coming to them and that they, the less targeted ones, are "better."
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I think long periods of being in a program do a lot of damage. Especially when you are talking about several years. I also think some programs target specific students for more abuse, and when the others get a lot less, the singled out one is apt to go more crazy than he might have had the abuse been more "democratic." There is less chance of ever getting any validation for one's suffering later on down the road. The others would very much prefer to think that he or she had it coming to them and that they, the less targeted ones, are "better."
Yes, what's not addressed often here is how kids in cultic gulags are targeted more than others, not just by staff but by other teenage detainees. Scapegoating is inevitable because of the methodology of thought reform tactics . I wonder if the inevitability of scapegoating and singling out of particular children is intentionally "built" into the system
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I think long periods of being in a program do a lot of damage. Especially when you are talking about several years. I also think some programs target specific students for more abuse, and when the others get a lot less, the singled out one is apt to go more crazy than he might have had the abuse been more "democratic." There is less chance of ever getting any validation for one's suffering later on down the road. The others would very much prefer to think that he or she had it coming to them and that they, the less targeted ones, are "better."
Yes, what's not addressed often here is how kids in cultic gulags are targeted more than others, not just by staff but by other teenage detainees. Scapegoating is inevitable because of the methodology of thought reform tactics . I wonder if the inevitability of scapegoating and singling out of particular children is intentionally "built" into the system
What better way to keep them all in line than by encouraging them to turn on one another. It makes the disparity of power between the adults and the kids yet all that more pronounced.
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Oscar, that link doesn't really work. Could you please try to repost it? I couldn't figure it out.