Fornits

Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: acurry on July 20, 2004, 03:21:00 PM

Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: acurry on July 20, 2004, 03:21:00 PM
My name is Angela Currry.  I was there from 92-94.
I also attended with my best friend Megan Flynn.  If anyone remembers us drop me a line.
[email protected]
Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: Nihilanthic on July 20, 2004, 09:53:00 PM
Tell us your story!
Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: acurry on July 23, 2004, 03:07:00 PM
My story is not that interesting.  I was there for 16 months.  I did just enough to get by.  I got sent home when my therapist was leaving.  Basically I was told that the I had hit a platu in my treatment, and I was wasting time.
Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: Anonymous on July 25, 2004, 11:04:00 PM
Maybe the money ran out. It seems that's all they are interested in. Did you witness any abusive acts while there?
Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: acurry on August 09, 2004, 03:11:00 PM
Yes, I saw some.  Not really of my own, but I saw very severe cases of mental abuse.
Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: Memento on August 12, 2004, 01:38:00 PM
First off I appreciate your posting.  Even with the anonymity that web posting allows for it takes guts to get up here and talk about such a hard experience as provo.   I went to ascent in, well I'd prefer not to say.   I am not sure if you are familiar with the place but they referred a lot of kids to provo.  Sometimes they would come back with stories.  I was always intrigued by the goings on there.  Kids said that there was a lot of heavy medicating there.  Also that there was a very restrictive daily routine.  If you would be willing I'd appreciate it a lot if you'd expand on those claims and outline a typical day there because the above is very vague.   I really hope to hear back.  
Just caLL me  Robert
Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: cherish wisdom on August 12, 2004, 03:10:00 PM
I was a parent who chose Provo Canyon School for my own child's treatment for depression. It was a huge mistake. Fortunately I had the opportunity to rescue her after she attempted to escape. I was not aware of the reputation until after she was there.  I became suspicious when her therapist called to tell me that he thought she was lying and being manipulative.  She was there for severe depression.  Anyway - there are several site that have information from survivors of this program. The best is a site created by former survivor, Angela Smith. It can be found at
http://www.beyondbusiness.net (http://www.beyondbusiness.net)  
There are also comments on the petition to close PCS that can be found at
http://www.heal-onlin.org/sign.htm (http://www.heal-onlin.org/sign.htm)
There have been several lawsuits.  In the successful Milonas/Rice vs. Provo Canyon School case there was a permanent injunction that was imposed against four common practices at Provo Canyon School.  Three of those practices were used against my own child.  Regardless of court orders and injunctions they are still employing extremely abusive measures in their efforts to control children.  
These are a few of the things my child either experienced or witnessed:
Screaming from the area occupied by the 11-13 year old boys night and day; isolation for entire days and nights in a cold, small, concrete room; stripped naked to humiliate; forced druggings with injections of Haldol; human takedowns where five to seven adults dog pile children; human restraint in the prone postition for more than 15 minutes; kids with broken noses and black eyes; fractured bones and backs; denial of medical care; children suffering in their rooms with respiratory infections - going without medical care; (this is just a partial list). This Program should be SHUT DOWN - I have told all of the authorities - including the Attorney General of the State of UTAH and every legislator these horrific occurances  - and guess what - THEY DO NOT CARE - THEY CONTINUE TO USE TAXPAYERES MONEY TO INCARCERATE CHILDREN AS YOUNG AS 11 years old in this place.  Even Child Protective Services did little to nothing to help the girls and boys whose abuse was witnessed and reported (in a ten page report) to the authorities.  Anyway - see the above sites for survivor stories.  ....

Q. I simply ask, why is PUNISHMENT the solution with regards to the narrow group of behaviors which encompass illegal drug use....?

A.Pharmaceutical Business, both legal and illegal, run by the same people either way, money coming to the middle from both ends.  Bush.
Bill Gallagher

Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: Anonymous on April 19, 2005, 05:34:00 PM
What I remember about PCS... many of the unit staff members (read- the uneducated local people they employed to run the facility), many of them had a similar body type:  short, and very rounded- round belly, round butt... and not in a sexy way, and smaller on top.  

Many of them had this type of body that is similar to someone with *Down's syndrome*.


 Even at age 14, I was thinking "A lot of these women are real funny shaped".

  Outside of Utah, I have never, ever seen so many people with this particular type of body.

 So, putting this together, I have come to the conclusion that the rumors are true... these people have been breeding too damn close in the gene pool.  


I do not intend to be mean.  This was something I figured out, by applying scientific facts to my observations.
Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: cherish wisdom on April 19, 2005, 05:40:00 PM
Here's something a former patient wrote - this patient was there in 1988-89:

ATTENTION PARENTS - ATTENTION PARENTS ---- If you truly love your child you will not be deceived by PCS.  Their tactics and lies are evil in more ways than one.  I was locked up at PCS in 1988/1989.

 

FALSE ADVERTISING---------------------------------

PCS mislead my parents in the 80's and I am sure they are doing the same now.  PCS has pamphlets that show the numerous activities that the child will take part in once at the school.  This simply does not happen.  Neither does the therapy sessions that are meant to help the child.  PCS is not truly a "school."  Although the teachers could be just as vindictive as the counselors who were hopped up on steroids, employees of PCS saw school as a privilege for the child.  The counselors would often not allow children to attend classes so that they would always have some kids to punish during the day.  I was at PCS for fourteen months and probably attended class about six of those months.  

 

ABUSE - PHYSICAL AND MENTAL-----------------------

For minor misbehavior or no bad behavior at all, the child would be made to stare at a wall anywhere from three to ten hours a day.  For many children including myself, this would result in dizzy spells.  This was mainly because of the room that this was taking place.  It was in a unit of the school that had locked doors and no windows.  During my stay there was a time when I stared at a wall ten hours a day for six months straight.  There were other eight foot by eight foot rooms that were used for solitary confinement.  I was locked in solitary for over 24 hours once, and I have seen friends locked in for over three days for what counselors would regard as a "poor attitude."  PHYSICAL ABUSE would often occur as well.  Almost daily you would see a small child slammed to the floor by a 250+ pound BYU football player.  Of course these goons had absolutely no credentials to work these positions.  Most of them were not bright and resort to violence when they were frustrated with a child.

 

INSURANCE FRAUD-----------------------------------

This may be an area that does not receive as much focus as the other complaints by former students.  However, this is something that is very disturbing and very real.  According to the staff members at PCS, your child is so fucked up and such a mess until the time when your insurance begins to run out.  You will be told that your child is (magically) transformed into a well-adjusted person only when your insurance is gone and you are no longer of any value to them.  Another disturbing fact is the financial compensation that Psychiatrists across the United States would receive for referring parents to PCS.

I have dozens of disturbing stories regarding my stay at PCS but it is probably best that I do not get into all of the specifics in this forum.

 

EVERYTHING WE SPEAK OF IS TRUE--------------------

As someone who endured fourteen horrible months in such an evil place, I see it as my duty to educate parents about what PCS is truly all about.

 

Though I feel that sites like this are a positive thing for former students, friends, and family, I am also very aware of the amount of power and wealth held by PCS (PCS was owned by The Charter Corporation when I was there).  I have knowledge of payoffs that PCS has made to former students in order to stay out of court.  The class action lawsuit (twenty+ students) that I was a part of in the late 90's was only thrown out by the judge due to the statute of limitations law.  Previous to that ruling PCS had tried to settle with all of us for about $5,000 which was an incredible insult.  We are talking about an evil facility that is absolutely petrified of receiving bad press and going through a huge trial.  They know that if they ever go to court and the truth comes out they will be forced to pay up big time.

 

I have always been consistent in saying that as much as it would be nice for me to receive financial compensation for what PCS put me and my family through, I would rather not receive a dime if it meant that PCS would be shut down.

 

By the way, there are hundreds more former students out there that don't even know that this forum and ones like it exist.

 

THERE ARE OTHER OPTIONS--

GOOD LUCK AND GOD BLESS--

By 1940 the literacy figure for all states stood at 96 percent for whites. Eighty percent for blacks. Notice for all the disadvantages blacks labored under, four of five were still literate. Six decades later, at the end of the 20th century, the National Adult Literacy Survey and the National Assessment of Educational Progress say 40 percent of blacks and 17 percent of whites can't read at all. Put another way, black illiteracy doubled, white illiteracy quadrupled, despite the fact that we spend three or four times as much real money on schooling as we did 60 years ago.
--Vin Suprynowicz

Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: Anonymous on April 19, 2005, 06:12:00 PM
This is true-  I saw so many kids get involved in "physical incidents" that were instigated by staff.  

Many times, a kid would try to walk away from a staff member (who might be badgering or taunting them), then the staff member would (call for backup) then just "take her down".  

Rarely did these kids present (at the time) a clear and present danger to themselves or anyone else.  

These staff lack the education and training necessary to work with these kids in a theraputic manner.  

Scary, but PCS has made some revisions  to their website (surely in response to the information availabe on the internet).  

They now have a section called "Liscensing and Accrediations".  On there, they have a long list of PhDs, MDs, RNs, and the like.  

The reality is that these "liscensed" and "accredited" people have little to no contact or direct dealings with the kids there.  The program is implemented & the kids performance evaluated by unliscensed staff with no "credentials" and no educated required more than a high school diploma (or equivalent).  

Conviently, the PCS website also no longer describes employment opportunities (as it used to), it just directs potential employees to "Contact Human Resources".  


That place is surely the most abusive, dysfunctional institution I have ever seen, and the staff are the most unqualified, unprofessional, and meanest bunch I have ever come across-  and I'm a **nurse** at a hospital in **downtown D.C.**, and I see all kinds of f*ckd up things...
Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: Antigen on April 19, 2005, 07:25:00 PM
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www ... anyon.com/ (http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.provocanyon.com/)

Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action.
George Washington

Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: Antigen on April 19, 2005, 07:30:00 PM
Holy crap! Are those Wackenhut colors just a coincidence?

Don't laugh when you leave this courtroom, thinking you have beat the system because you have looked these things up yourself. We are going to get you down the road.
Washington Superior CourtJudge Rebecca Baker

Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: cherish wisdom on April 19, 2005, 09:04:00 PM
Their website is soooo deceptive. It looks like a private high school - coed - freedom.  Nothing could be further from the truth.

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense

--Buddha

Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: Anonymous on April 19, 2005, 09:48:00 PM
It seems they have deleted the more recent versions of the website (the much older,  less descript ones are still available).  Hmmmm...

I actually called there one time, posing at a the parent of a potential student.  

I asked them many questions.  The guy I spoke to gave me half-a$$ answers, (regarding punitive measures, and qualifications of the staff) and when I questioned him again, looking for a straight answer, he became evasive and defensive.  

I really think that is more parents ask them detailed questions, and persist until they get straight answers, then enrollment will decrease.  

I guess that has already happened, though.  The last time I spoke with my old therapist from PCS, he was telling me how they had gotten kids sent from "Arabia" (Saudi Arabia).  This is a country where all information, including that avaialble on the internet, is hard to come by, and heavily censored.  

The staff at PCS cannot even understand or work with kids who are from the East coast!  I can't even begin to imagine how they interact with kids from Saudi Arabia!!  Unbelievable...
Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: Anonymous on April 20, 2005, 11:42:00 PM
Just so I may receive proper credit for my statements:  


My name is Megan Flynn, I am a Registered Nurse, and I posted previously under this topic, regarding the (un)qualifications of the PCS staff, as well as the physical abuse I witnessed (under this particular topic, I have not detailed the psychological and spiritual abuse I experienced/witnessed, but will provide a detailed account of such abuse upon request).

My boyfriend is a PhD and MD, and will testify that the (PTSD) symptoms I have experienced (which he has been witness to) are a direct result of what happened at Provo Canyon School.  

If anyone has any questions or comments, please feel free to contact me at any time.  

[email protected]
Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: Anonymous on April 20, 2005, 11:53:00 PM
Megan,

Tell us about it publicly on this forum.  We are interested in hearing what you have to say.  I have heard that PCS is one of the possible buyers of several of the CEDU schools.  I was there personally when they toured the Idaho facilities back in the fall.
Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: Anonymous on April 21, 2005, 03:20:00 PM
PCS is thinking of buying a place in Idaho??  

Perhaps they have come under too much pressure from the authorities in Utah.  They have been there a long time, and there have been many, many complaints (as well as lawsuits).  

Maybe they plan to shut down PCS, and start new in another state.  Thats very interesting.

I am working on a small but to-the-point manifesto, which I will be sending to the authorities in Utah.  It will probably also be used in a current lawsuit being brought against PCS.  I will also post it here.  

Megan
Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: Anonymous on April 21, 2005, 10:29:00 PM
Hi Megan,

There were three "suits" that toured the CEDU schools last fall.  We were told that they were just visiting, gathering information on how other schools ran, etc.  Who knows what the truth was.  The director probably didn't know anything either.

It is rumor only, that Provo is a possible contender to buy one or several of the CEDU schools.  I don't think the courts have decided whether or not the schools can be sold individually or not.
Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: Anonymous on April 21, 2005, 11:50:00 PM
Provo Canyon School is owned by Universal Health Services.  They own over 100 hospitals and behavior health centers.  
I believe their website is http://www.uhs.com (http://www.uhs.com)

They boasted 4 billion in profits last year.  They also own Del Amo in California and seveal other facilities.
Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: Anonymous on April 21, 2005, 11:52:00 PM
It's http://www.uhsinc.com (http://www.uhsinc.com)
Universal Health Systems
Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: cherish wisdom on April 21, 2005, 11:56:00 PM
Anchor Hospital
Atlanta, Georgia
84 beds
http://www.anchorhospital.com (http://www.anchorhospital.com)



Clarion Psychiatric Center
Clarion, Pennsylvania
70 beds
http://www.clarioncenter.com (http://www.clarioncenter.com)



Coastal Harbor Treatment Center
Savannah, GA 31406
112 beds
http://www.coastalharbor.com (http://www.coastalharbor.com)



Community Behavioral Health
Memphis, Tennessee
50 beds



Del Amo Hospital
Torrance, California
166 beds
http://www.delamohospital.com (http://www.delamohospital.com)



Fairmount Behavioral Health System
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
169 beds
http://www.fairmountbhs.com (http://www.fairmountbhs.com)



Forest View Hospital
Grand Rapids, Michigan
62 beds
http://www.forestviewhospital.com (http://www.forestviewhospital.com)



Fuller Memorial Hospital
South Attleboro, Massachusetts
82 beds
http://www.arbourhealth.com (http://www.arbourhealth.com)



Glen Oaks Hospital
Greenville, Texas
54 beds
http://www.glenoakshospital.com (http://www.glenoakshospital.com)



Hampton Behavioral Health Center
Westhampton, New Jersey
100 beds
http://www.hamptonhospital.com (http://www.hamptonhospital.com)



Hartgrove Hospital
Chicago, Illinois
119 beds
http://www.hartgrovehospital.com (http://www.hartgrovehospital.com)



Hospital San Juan Capestrano
Rio Piedras, Puerto Rico
108 beds
http://www.sanjuancapestrano.com (http://www.sanjuancapestrano.com)



HRI Hospital
Brookline, Massachusetts
68 beds
http://www.arbourhealth.com (http://www.arbourhealth.com)



KeyStone Center
Wallingford, Pennsylvania
114 beds
http://www.keystonecenter.net (http://www.keystonecenter.net)



La Amistad Behavioral Health Services
Maitland, Florida
56 beds
http://www.lamistad.com (http://www.lamistad.com)



Lakeside Behavioral Health System
Memphis, Tennessee
204 beds
http://www.lakesidebhs.com (http://www.lakesidebhs.com)



Laurel Heights Hospital
Atlanta, Georgia
102 beds
http://www.laurelheightshospital.com (http://www.laurelheightshospital.com)



Meridell Achievement Center
Austin, Texas
114 beds
http://www.meridell.com (http://www.meridell.com)



Midwest Center for Youth and Families
Kouts, Indiana
50 beds
http://www.midwest-center.com (http://www.midwest-center.com)



North Star Hospital
Anchorage, Alaska
117 beds
http://www.northstarbehavioral.com (http://www.northstarbehavioral.com)



North Star Residential Treatment Center
Anchorage, Alaska
25 beds



Palmer Residential Treatment Center
Palmer, Alaska
9 beds



Parkwood Behavioral Health System
Olive Branch, Mississippi
106 beds
http://www.parkwoodbhs.com (http://www.parkwoodbhs.com)



Peachford Behavioral Health System of Atlanta
Atlanta, Georgia
184 beds
http://www.peachfordhospital.com (http://www.peachfordhospital.com)



Pembroke Hospital
Pembroke, Massachusetts
107 beds
http://www.arbourhealth.com (http://www.arbourhealth.com)



Provo Canyon School
Provo, Utah
211 beds
http://www.provocanyon.com (http://www.provocanyon.com) :scared:  :scared:



Ridge Behavioral Health System
Lexington, Kentucky
110 beds
http://www.ridgebhs.com (http://www.ridgebhs.com)



Rivendell Behavioral Health Services Kentucky
Bowling Green, Kentucky
72 beds
http://www.rivendellbehavioral.com (http://www.rivendellbehavioral.com)



Rivendell Behavioral Health Services of Arkansas
Benton, Arkansas
77 beds
http://www.rivendellofarkansas.com (http://www.rivendellofarkansas.com)



River Crest Hospital
San Angelo, Texas
80 beds
http://www.rivercresthospital.com (http://www.rivercresthospital.com)



River Oaks Hospital
New Orleans, Louisiana
126 beds
http://www.riveroakshospital.com (http://www.riveroakshospital.com)



Rockford Center
Newark, Delaware
74 beds
http://www.rockfordcenter.com (http://www.rockfordcenter.com)



Roxbury
Shippensburg, Pennsylvania
53 beds
http://www.roxburyhospital.com (http://www.roxburyhospital.com)



Spring Mountain Treatment Center
Las Vegas, Nevada
82 beds
http://www.springmountaintreatmentcenter.com (http://www.springmountaintreatmentcenter.com)



St. Louis Behavioral Medicine Institute
St. Louis, Missouri
http://www.slbmi.com (http://www.slbmi.com)



Stonington Institute
Stonington, Connecticut
http://www.stoningtoninstitute.com (http://www.stoningtoninstitute.com)



Talbott Recovery Campus
Atlanta, Georgia
http://www.talbottcampus.com (http://www.talbottcampus.com)



The Arbour Hospital
Boston, Massachusetts
118 beds
http://www.arbourhealth.com (http://www.arbourhealth.com)



The BridgeWay
North Little Rock, Arkansas
70 beds
http://www.thebridgeway.com (http://www.thebridgeway.com)



The Carolina Center for Behavioral Health
Greer, South Carolina
66 beds
http://www.thecarolinacenter.com (http://www.thecarolinacenter.com)



The Horsham Clinic
Ambler, Pennsylvania
146 beds
http://www.horshamclinic.com (http://www.horshamclinic.com)



The Meadows Psychiatric Center
Centre Hall, Pennsylvania
101 beds
http://www.themeadows.net (http://www.themeadows.net)



The Pavilion
Champaign, Illinois
46 beds
http://www.pavilionhospital.com (http://www.pavilionhospital.com)



Timberlawn Mental Health System
Dallas, Texas
124 beds
http://www.timberlawn.com (http://www.timberlawn.com)



Turning Point Care Center
Moultrie, Georgia
59 beds
http://www.turningpointcare.com (http://www.turningpointcare.com)



Two Rivers Psychiatric Hospital
Kansas City, Missouri
80 beds
http://www.tworivershospital.com (http://www.tworivershospital.com)



Westwood Lodge Hospital
Westwood, Massachusetts
126 beds
http://www.arbourhealth.com (http://www.arbourhealth.com)


 
 
 

Writing about music is like dancing about architecture.
--

Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: Anonymous on April 22, 2005, 08:58:00 AM
I know about UHS.  Actually, the hospital I work at in DC is owned by UHS (a medical hospital).

UHS has a reputation in DC for being cheap!  Other hospitals in the area host very nice Christmas parties (at hotels, with open bars and dancing, ect...)  Our hospital had a Christmas party so bad in 2003 (it was in the basement of the hospital, no beer, and employees were not allowed to bring guests, nor were we allowed to take food out of the basement.), that they did not even have on in 2004.  And other area hospitals give their employees gift certificates for the holidays, like $50 to the mall.  Not our hospital.

Not that we really care.

What does make me mad is that UHS insurance (the only insurance offered to employees) does not cover the cost of birth control pills, not unless they are prescribed to treat a "medical condition".  They simply will not pay for them if they are being used to prevent a pregnancy.  

My doctor had to make up like 5 medical diagnosis (none of which afflict me) and fax it to UHS so they would cover my pills.  

Before the election last year, in the UHS newsletter, the UHS president let us all know that he was voting for George Bush, and told us all why he thought Bush was a good choice.  (I didn't actually read that, but thats that my coworkers told me).

UHS is also strongly anti-union.  

Yes, I am feeling like I work for an evil corporation.  But the hospital itself is not doing so well (despite having brand-new facilities).  "Customer service" ranks are very poor, and most patients are not very happy with their experience at this hospital.   Good help is just hard to come by.  

Megan
Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: Anonymous on April 22, 2005, 01:53:00 PM
UHS boasted that they had profits of 4 Billion - I also work for a cheap hospital owned by HCA - similar cheap Christmas party only for employees. I brought my little girl and they said she couldn't have any prime rib - not that she would want any. I just thought it was really rude and cheap.  

Provo Canyon is also cheap with the kids while charging families 12,500 per month.  The kids don't get to have any outdoor activiities and often spend days just sitting in a chair to work off points.
Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: Antigen on April 22, 2005, 02:34:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-04-21 20:56:00, cherish wisdom wrote:

Talbott Recovery Campus
Atlanta, Georgia
http://www.talbottcampus.com (http://www.talbottcampus.com)


Visitors to this website respond to Stanton's publications about G. Douglas Talbott.

Threats and Indoctrination at Talbott Recovery Campus
Reactions to the ASAM/Talbott Trial

http://www.peele.net/debate/talbott.reactions.html (http://www.peele.net/debate/talbott.reactions.html)

More on Talbott from Peele,net

Thought that is silenced is always rebellious. Majorities, of course, are often mistaken. This is why the silencing of minorities is necessarily dangerous. Criticism and dissent are the indispensable antidote to major delusions.
--  ALAN BARTH, The Loyalty of Free Men, 1951.

Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: Anonymous on April 24, 2005, 05:47:00 PM
Wow!

Thank you, Ginger, for being so informed, and also for sharing with us. :wave:
Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: Anonymous on April 24, 2005, 05:47:00 PM
That last post was from me (Megan).
Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: Nihilanthic on April 25, 2005, 04:22:00 AM
Get an account.

To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical.
Thomas Jefferson

Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: Anonymous on May 15, 2005, 06:10:00 PM
Hey does anyone know anything about Arbour Hospital in Boston MA? I'm considering applying there and I need any info I can get my hands on besides what's on theire website. :wave:
Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: Antigen on May 15, 2005, 06:52:00 PM
Well, looking at the map, I note that it's right near Boston U. So I'm guessing there are a good many little bars and such around there and that hospital staff probably frequent them. Go hang out in the neighborhood and ask around about it.

Creationists make it sound like a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night.
--Isaac Asimov, Russian-born American author

Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: cherish wisdom on May 16, 2005, 12:50:00 AM
More from one of the doctors who testified against Talbott about threats, isolation, lack of real assessment, AA indoctrination, and so on:

I am not sure how many docs testified because I was only there one day, but I met three on the day I was there. Witnesses were not allowed to sit in on the testimony of others. Witnesses were protected from the court reporters by being introduced as "the doctor from New York" or the "psychiatrist from Virginia." One of the doctors I met brought his wife. She had been told by Talbott that she better do something to make her husband stay there, or the next time she saw him he would be dead. As I recall he left TRC anyway and both of them testified.

The other doc I met was critical because Talbott maintained that he never threatened anyone's professional license. But he had written in this guy's inpatient chart that he would take his license! The guy left TRC after a very harassing session by counselors. None of the other patients dared to interfere to stop the abuse because of possible punishments such as extensions of stay, loss of privileges, or increased laboratory or clinical studies which cost money.

Other testimony was about the lack of medical supervision. Charts were signed off by TRC doctors the patients never met. One of the best witnesses Masters had was said to be Talbott himself whose testimony the jury readily saw through. Master's insurance ran out, if I recall correctly, and Talbott's business office was discussing getting a loan from Masters' retirement account. Masters was a good plaintiff because he was sent there, not for drinking but by the agent of the state's medical group, PRN (Physicians' Recovery Network), because Masters wrote too many narcotic prescriptions, not because of drinking. When TRC could not find a problem with his prescribing narcotics for his patients nor with taking them himself, they got him to admit to drinking each evening and said he could not leave until he completed treatment.

Instead of an evaluation, all new patients joined right in with mandatory AA meetings and, in rooms with too few chairs, the new patients got to sit on the floor while Talbott explained the "power of the group." An important point at the trial was that the indoctrination into AA and loudly confessing to being an alcoholic began on admission, before the four day evaluation was completed! In other words, it was a forgone conclusion that you were going to stay or lose your license because you started right out with treatment.

You mentioned TMRC vs TRC. That stood for Talbott Marsh Recovery Campus before Marsh dropped out. No wonder legal action has been so slow, in addition to the threats against licenses.... Marsh is a local JUDGE.

There is much more... no visitors allowed? unless you sign up for the family program ... which costs $. No weekends away from TRC unless the group approves and then only 2 or 3 weekends in four months. No reading of recovery material that was not AA /12-step, no reading of medical journals etc. No making of close friends or you would be separated. Failure to participate in AA meant expulsion ... which meant loss of license.

Real criminals walk free every day to rape, rob, and murder again because the courts are so busy finding consensual criminals guilty of hurting no one but themselves.... To free cells for consensual criminals, real criminals are put on the street every day.
Peter McWilliams

Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: Anonymous on May 16, 2005, 01:24:00 AM
The time I spent at Provo Canyon School changed me in ways that I am still struggling with, fourteen years later.
Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: Anonymous on May 25, 2005, 02:10:00 AM
I was at Provo Canyon School in Orem in 1999.  One day when I have the time and the energy I will type and paste my whole story here and all over the web so that it comes up at the top of search engines when "prospective patents" type Provo Canyon School into the query box.  I will never forget observation- the isolation room... The cot with cuffs and restraints hanging off it- that time they put that poor frail girl in a straight jacket, then later, left the jacket out hanging on the corner of the door, so everyone on investment could see it.  The take downs.  The sobbing, the total breakdowns under the stress and 24/7 headgames. Night after night those flashlights and hall lights in our eyes. Line structure. Dial... I can't even say it, but you know the number. The Hadol in the hip bones, and  the mean, downright vengeful sadistic staff.  They had weird relationships and obsessions with some of the inmates.  I saw one girl with a broken leg, and one with a broken arm, but the injuries were always described in some vague manner, ?fell down the stairs? or ?ran into the wall in P.E.? No one seems to get it, these places don't just shut down soon as the media gets wind... They change owners. It was Charter when I was there and now it's what? World Health or something like that?  It's still ol' Rob Crist and his crew...  They tried to convince me I had ran away from home when I never did.  They even kept putting me in situation after situation where I had the chance to run, but I knew, I KNEW that it was a trap.  Like once they left the stairwell door wide open and told me to deliver something from unit 2 up to orientation, another time my therapist had me help her carry stuff in from her car. But I'd always see a walky-talky antennae just around the corner or hear some far off muffled staticy "what's your 20?" They were always setting you up. I even made hotel!  Some of those guys from the boy's campus were pretty fine heh.  Some of you probably rememeber me, and let me tell you soon as the staff got wind that I was leaving, they brought up something someone overheard me say from like four months prior and I lost my bed and landed in investment.  I believe it was Lorna and Danielle that called me on it.  (I heard Danielle moved to California, but Lorna?s still there and as mean as ever.) They totally expected me to lose it, they were all ready for me to lose it and just fly off the handle. So you know what I did?  I just LOOKED at them, and said NOTHING.  I worked off the ip's, went back to the unit (in room 9 the one with the two-way mirror on the wall) then I went home.  I should have never said anything in front of that girl, but they got inside her head.  The staff at PCS had this way of pitting the girls against each other.  Divide and conquer I guess.  Know what I had said? After taking a Class II for sketching my name in ?tag lettering,? I was in a pretty pissy mood so I muttered under my breath:  ?I bet I could fake my way outta here.? It?s kinda funny. Truth is, I faked it the whole way though. I faked that place like it was a 24/7 role in a movie I was playing, and I observed EVERYTHING.  I?ll tell you, one time they gave me some other girl's Lithium by mistake, and then they were much more lenient on me after that.  I tried to tell them I wasn?t her, and they threatened me with Obs if I didn?t swallow the meds. I actually had a great stash of all kinds of shit too (and I?m not talking candy), but I won't say how, just in case some girl there now is using the same hiding spot, I don't want some staff who reads these things to go bust them. Needless to say, I was high almost every weekend.  How did I get through it?  I once had one of the teachers write me like a year after I left and she said ?you had a very calming presence in the classroom? I did all I could to just be silly and diffuse any uprising situation.  I tried to give the place perspective, and was always a little sarcastic when I pointed out the inanity of the rules and terminology, without ever being obvious about it.  They say true love conquers all, I just took everyone into my heart, both staff and students. On my last day I even looked the meanest staff in the eyes and told her, "I forgive you."  She had real fear in her face after hearing that. More than once the staff even asked me to talk to a girl to calm her down.  All I could ever say to the girls (since I was being watched, of course) was ?Look, you know as well as I do how far this can go.? And it would go FAR. I heard they could keep a girl in Obs for weeks on nothing but hard water and saltines. They lied to my mother and told her that no men worked on the girl?s units, but I can remember at least two males in their twenties on the investment unit (one of which I believe was a senior on?s son). The staff also trashed my sketchbook.  I also heard a rumor that this girl saw some room that had a bunch of TVs which looked like they were receiving input from surveillance cameras, but I never saw that for myself.  To this day I freak out when ever I smell cleaning solvent similar to the ones we had to use. All Provo Canyon School ever taught me was that there are serious mind-control experiments being run on this country?s youth, and that by having control over the inmate?s mail, and listening in on phone conversations, they cut off all access to legal representation or help of any kind. They control everyone by FORCE and THREATS- staff and students alike. How I wish the revolution had gone down while I was there!  Some success story huh?  Now I'm an artist and a musician.  Hit me up- [email protected]
Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: cherish wisdom on May 27, 2005, 12:58:00 PM
My daughter had a similar experience with obs, haldol, investment, mail and phone censoring at Provo Canyon School. What you are saying is true and it is still happening today. I'd like to encourage you to report all of these things to the authorities - the isolation, drugging, forcing you to swallow a dangerous medication that was not your own - all of these things are abusive.

I cannot believe in the immortality of the soul.... No, all this talk of an existence for us, as individuals, beyond the grave is wrong. It is born of our tenacity of life -- our desire to go on living -- our dread of coming to an end.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor

Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: Anonymous on May 28, 2005, 04:51:00 AM
Which authorities?  The police?  The government? It seems these RTCs are big business in Utah and that they just keep changing owners whenever things get too heavy.   How did Provo Canyon School manage to  claim bankruptcy in 2000 when they were raking in $300+ a DAY per kid?  It's too many years past the statue of limitations for me to sue, and Provo Canyon School can certainly afford a better lawyer than any kid four years or less out of the program. I really am so sorry to hear about your daughter, Cherish, and I really respect what you are doing.  I wish that more parents of children who were abused and mistreated at Provo Canyon School would come forward.  When former students speak out-  myself included- it just sounds like upset former students.  But when a =parent= gives Provo Canyon School a bad review, and confirms what the formers students are saying, other parents really listen to that.
Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: Antigen on May 28, 2005, 01:41:00 PM
Even if you can't take any legal action in your own case, some lawyers have advised ppl to make out  notarized affidavits and file them w/ all of the appropriate authorities. They won't act on them in any direct way. But when someone does take legal action, if they know the affidavits exist, they may be able to use them somehow.

First management had plans and then strategic plans. Now we have vision, and we're only one small step from hallucination.
-- Ansley Throckmorton upon assuming the presidency of Bangor Theological Seminary in Bangor, Main per Information World 8-4-`97

Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: cherish wisdom on May 30, 2005, 01:28:00 AM
Regardless of whether the statute has passed - it could help hundreds of others if you report what happened to you. Even though 5 years have passed - that only give your story more credibility.  Here are the e-mail addresses of some of the authorities in Utah:

[email protected] (http://mailto:[email protected]) - Human Rights - Utah - Liz Julian

[email protected] (http://mailto:[email protected]) - Sophie Petrogeorge - Assistant Attorney General State of Utah

[email protected] (http://mailto:[email protected]) - Ken Stettler Director Department of Health and Human Services

You should send a letter regarding your care at Provo Canyon School to these people. Unfortunately most only vent here on the internet. If more people went to the authorities prehaps something more would be done to close places like Provo Canyon School.  

Faith means not wanting to know what is true.
--Freidrich Nietzsche, German philosopher

Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: Anonymous on June 10, 2005, 11:44:00 PM
I graduated from that horrid place in 1988.  Since I was shipped there, I have had really severe issues with trust.  I can't trust people and think everyone has an alterior motive.  To this day, I still have paranoid thoughts of getting locked up again.  Almost 20 years later, I still wake up from nightmares related to my time there.

I went through a lot of the same things posted in this thread, but when I attended "IPS", which were the points you had to work off, were worked off by standing & staring at a wall.  We were not allowed to do homework, speak or sit down, except for the five minute break between IPS.  Observation was the  most miserable experience I've ever been through.  I was in there for several 3+ week stretches.  There was no cot - just a mattress on the floor with the restraints.  I remember trying to carve things in the wood panels with my nails to do something - anything - it didn't matter.  Eating was the only activity I had to look forward to.

The funny thing is... reading all of these testimonies and how PCS claimed people were manipulative and warned parents that their children would lie made me realize that it WAS as bad as I remember.  It was as much of a NIGHTMARE as I said it was.  I wasn't crazy.  I wasn't exaggerating.  My parents told me that the staff their called me "smooth operator" because I was so manipulative, but the truth of it (which seems so clear now)is that they said that to every parent.  They didn't want their "methods" known.  

I was so happy to get out of there, I didn't care about fighting with my parents about what really went on there.  They just tell me that I graduated and so it really did help.  I graduated to get out of there.  I don't think fear is really a good reason to do anything.

My anger and drug abuse was not helped by this place at all.  In fact, it had increased at least ten-fold once I got out.  I try and never regret anything in my life because I believe every experience has made me who I am today, but I mourn my adolescence.

I suppose that which does not kill me makes me stronger...
Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: cherish wisdom on June 11, 2005, 01:51:00 AM
Hopefully you will get stronger. Time heals wounds. My heart goes out to all of the survivors who had to spend so much time in that horrid lock down called Provo Canyon School. There are many people who were there 20 years ago and still have scars from their experience. Your stories really do help save others from a similar fate.  My daughter was only there for one month. I don't know what she would have been like if she had been there for several months or even years like some of the survivors. I truly believe that their maltreatment has caused many to loose their minds.  Some of the girls become more depressed.  
Parents are still sending their children there. I don't know what they are thinking - they obviously are not listening.

I tried not to work for, you know, anyone who ate children with their bare hands. I won't pretend that I was ideologically consistent.


--Dick Morris; Political consultant for Bill Clinton, Trent Lott and Tom Ridge

Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: Anonymous on July 13, 2005, 06:48:00 PM
From age 13-15, i was held in this horrid place.  So many things are seen but not heard.  Many of the torture that had occurred to me and multiple other patients there cannot be put into words because of how painful it was.  They really need to actually start helping kids rather than making things worse.  I convinced my parents to transfer me to another facility because of the horrible treatment i was receiving.  For two years i was belittled because i spoke negatively about the program.  Finally i broke down and was brutally honest to my wretched therapist and brainwashed parents.  This insanity needs to end! I 100% agree with closing down this facility.  I was confined in the place for 22 months beginning on November 13, 2002 and recently ending on September 4, 2004.  Therapy was more like discipline session.  Therapists had all the power.  How are you supposed to trust someone with helping you when they are constantly placed in the role to discipline you?  For approximately 15 months of my stay, I was residing on investment, the disciplinary unit.  I endured numerous amounts of hours sitting in isolation in sweats with no communication to anyone because I was very fed up with not being taken seriously with how i felt about the program to anyone.  Because I happened to be very impulsive as well, i was placed on a standing order in which i was forced to write down every single word, sound, and non-verbal expression down on paper before i did it.  That was a part of my program for four months straight!  Not once was i taken off of that.  Then because i didn't work on certain specific issues that i had, i was put on another standing order that was to carry a box with all my issues written on the outside.  That is breaking confidentiality and very cruel because i was never allowed to put it down unless asleep.  I really think that they falsely advertise Provo Canyon School because by manipulating desperate parents to get their kids help.  In the video they show numerous things that do not even exists at the school.  I have no more to say on this but i thank you for giving me the time to express myself on this issue.  It is quite crazy because i never thought that anyone would feel the same as i do and actually want to do something about it.
Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: bandit1978 on July 13, 2005, 07:20:00 PM
Can you tell me what staff members were there while you were there?  Which ones were the meanest/most sadistic?  Which ones seemed to be truly psycho?  I am very interested to know who is still there (I was there in 1993-94), because indeed, one of the biggest problems they have there are some of those staff members.  

And did you notice that some staff members are clearly, obviously lesbians, but live in such a repressed state that they are seemingly unaware of this and are even married and have children??  Then they act out their confused, repressed, angry sexuality by working at a place like PCS.  It's so sick.
Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: Anonymous on July 13, 2005, 09:15:00 PM
Ok, here's some dirt on all the staff from 1999-early 2000.  It's hard to remember everyone, but I'll do my best.

(note: I don't know everyone's full name, because we just called the staff by their first names)


Sandy-  She had long blonde hair, maybe in her 40's?  She was mean at first and liked to tell people they were being "ornery".  She also liked to make the students "take a chair"  (when you had to take a chair, face it toward the wall, sit with your arms on the armrest, sit up straight, and stare at the wall forever) and she would often not let them get up to go to the bathroom.

Allison-  She was also one of the meanest there. She was morning staff on orientation and investment, she had short brown hair and big eyes, she liked to call dial 9's (when all the staff dogpile on a kid and restrain them).  She seemed pretty abusive.  She had a temper and sometimes threw things at the kids.  She also would flip over your mattress if you didn't wake up right away, even if you were on the top bunk.  She liked to accuse people of things they never did.  Also, if you had to write a contract (for a class II infraction or whatever, she would rarely accept it the first time and you'd have to serve your points over again.  

Clara- She was heavyset, in her 20's. She used to live in Santa Clara, which I thought was funny.  She was usually staff during the day while we were at school.  She wasn't too bad except for the fact that she would force you to let her read your mail.  She got called on a lot of the dial 9's.

Brandon- Investment staff. He was in his mid twenties.  He acted gay, he was very swishy and talked with a lisp (not that that's a problem, I'm just describing him).  He liked to gossip about the girls there with Kirsten.  I heard rumors that he was abusive.

Kirsten- In her twenties.  She had blonde hair and blue eyes, looked nice, but was kinda strange.  She and one of the students, (initials E.O.),  had a really weird obsessive relationship and she used to take the girl on "home visits" quite often as I remember.  She was a really BIG gossip and would blabber all day about the student's personal lives without caring who overheard her.

Codey-  Investment staff.  She looked like the youngest one there, I didn't know her that well, but she was kinda clownish and would joke a lot, but it would sometimes get some of the younger girls excited and riled, and they'd forget themselves, and then laugh out of turn or something, and then she'd punish them.  

Shannon- Unit II staff.  She was actually pretty mellow.  She would at least try to comfort you if you were having a bad day, and would listen if you needed to talk.  She left because she was having a baby.

JoAnna-  She was really tall and had short, curly black hair (I remember some of the girls called her broccoli-head)  She liked to pick-on the girls, and she would tease them all the time.  She would call them names, and laugh in their faces.

Heidi-  Slender, tan, and short blonde hair.  I didn't know her that well either, but she was the staff that once came back from the young boy's unit with blood on her shirt.

Nofo-  She was pretty nice too, I mean all the staff kinda got wrapped up in the power-game, but Nofo was also pretty nice and would listen and seemed to care.

D'arcy-  She was a very tall, intimidating-looking woman.  Blonde. At first she was really nice and tried to do extra things for the girls, like bringing them books to read, and helping them with their homework.  But I think she kinda power-tripped after awhile, she started to get really mean and was often involved in restraining the students.

Jenna-  Kinda built like D'arcy, she had a timid-sounding voice. Also blonde.  She got called on a lot of the dial 9's too. I didn't know her that well as she was on unit 3.
 
J.C.- Also unit 3 staff. She had long curly brown hair. I didn't know her that well 'cause I wasn't on her unit.  I heard a rumor that she and D'arcy got involved in some sort of scandal with a couple of the students, anyone know the story behind this?




SENIOR STAFF


Lorna Hall-  Absolutely the meanest staff there.  She was short, fat, and kinda an eyesore.  I have a felling she was so mean because she felt bad about her self.  I think that some of the other staff were actually afraid of her, too.  She wasn't always there, but when she was she would be putting people on chairs, on investment, or in obs (the solitary room) left and right.  She called a dial-9 on you for anything- rolling your eyes, or saying "I'm going to the restroom" instead of asking if you may go to the restroom.  She pulled my hair once and pulled a huge chunk out.  She also, when throwing me into obs, dug her nails into my arm so badly that it bled.

Cathy Hurly-  She was usually in charge of the Hotel girls, driving them to and from the Howard Johnson's.  She once broke her wrist or thumb or something during a dial-9 and had to wear a sling. Also, during the beginning of my stay, I do believe it was her son, who looked in his early-mid twenties, watching the girls in obs on investment.

Danielle Fishel (or Fisher?)-  Petite blonde, she was nice-looking, but always had a mean expression on her face.  She was pretty ruthless with handing out punishments and infractions, and liked to blame the kids for things they had no control over. I heard she moved to California?




Ok, the others I had little to no experience with so I couldn't really say.  Oh yeah, I remember the therapist Jeanette Brown had some pretty strange approaches to therapy.  She and some of the other therapists would put people on "standing orders" like they would have to flip a coin to tell if they were lying, and if it came up the wrong side they got a class II, they had ones where students were not allowed to talk to people on certain levels, or just not allowed to talk at all, ones where two students would be paired, and if one got in trouble, the other got the same punishment as the first did, even if she wasn't involved.  I could go on forever.  If anyone has any questions feel free to ask.
Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: bandit1978 on July 13, 2005, 11:19:00 PM
I remember an orientation staff member named Allison Beardall.  (don't know if it is the same one, but maybe). Short hair, not too tall, big blue eyes.  Though Allison and I were not particuarly close, I believe she was one of the more educated ones.  I think she either had a degree in sociology, or was studying for one.  

While she could be a bit mean and definately petty, I think she has the ability and the knowledge base to work in a theraputic and positive manner.  I do know that working in that sort of environment could make a staff member with a mean-streak turn really mean, as it is quite easy for them to abuse their power.

I also remember Lorna.  She once gave me a class 2 because I got a sunburn! (how the fuck was I sopposed to know that the sun in the mountains was so strong.  We were only outside for maybe 2 hours, and I was only 14!).  

I remember Kathy Hurley.  (though I thought I heard from someone that she got fired).  She has worked there forever!  She worked with the upper level girls.  I don't think she was really abusive or anything.  But you could easily feel sorry for her, because she seemed like a cool chic, but was stuck in this small town in Utah.  (I don't think she has ever lived anywhere else).  She would have done well in New york, maybe in the east village or something, if she would have gone there at a young age.  And she dropped out of nursing school.  Pretty sad.  I don't think she had any kids, though.
Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: Anonymous on July 14, 2005, 01:28:00 AM
Larry Winn - therapist - small, short, about 50-60. Codey Barnes, Angela Pratt - both mean and sadistic.
Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: Anonymous on July 14, 2005, 07:13:00 PM
It's possible that it wasn't Kathy Hurly's son, I just knew he was the son of a senior-on, and he kinda resembled her face, but it could have been Sue or Leslie's son, because they were both there, but I rarely saw them (except once Leslie gave me a class II for mis-matched hair scrunchies.) I laugh when I think of it now, but I wasn't laughing at the time that's fer sure.  Also, a lot of what we heard about the staff was like through a game of telephone because everything we said was closely monitored by students and other staff, so we had to be super-secretive.  I know it's bad to spread rumors, but they are usually based on something, so I think it's better to get it out in the open so people can actually confront what is what, instead of going on silently thinking something that's not true.  It's important to remember that staff would be mean to some students would be really nice to others, they liked to play favorites. Like it should be said, that even though Sandy seemed pretty mean, I heard from other students that she once risked her job and stood up for some girl that was being picked on, so I think she was probably deep down a good person after all.  It seemed that mostly all the staff were actually nice, decent folk that just got wrapped up in a bad scene.  Even Lorna, who was definitely the meanest, had adopted a baby and I have to give her credit for that because atleast it showed she had some sort of motherlyness to her. I too feel sorry for the staff there because when I think about it, there's probably not a lot of other options for employment in Provo, Utah, and the skills learned on the job really can't transfer to anything other jobs except maybe prison guard, so it's no wonder they stick with it, what else are they gonna do?  I think you really hit the nail on the head when you said "working in that sort of environment could make a staff member with a mean-streak turn really mean, as it is quite easy for them to abuse their power." I saw a lot of that.
Title: Former students from Provo Canyon School???
Post by: bandit1978 on July 15, 2005, 12:05:00 AM
Larry Wynn was my therapist- good man (I think...).  He was the most desired out of all the others (all the girls wanted to be on his caseload).  

What about the bull-dykes?  (women whom are obviously, painfully lesbians, but are in denial because of their religion, the local utah culture, or whatever reason).  They included *Eileen (short, serious body-builder, mullet;  she was especially malicious towards me, she caused me mountains of anxiety!)  She is actually a real sicko.  
*Maureen (Mo)- I think she is gone, she used to work days during school.  She was for sure a butch lesbian, but has a husband and one son.    *Marnie- petite and cute, but deep voice, definately a lesbian.  Had husband and one baby (at age 22!)  
*Julie- large, with curly light brown hair, married to a hispanic man, with a baby and a stepson.  She's probably also a lesbian.  

I do feel sorry for all these people.  They are so repressed (sexually, socially, intellectually).  IF some of them do leave Utah and move on to someplace with more opportunity, then good for them.  But the ones who stay there are doing a disservice to themselves, and especially to any children they might keep and raise in Provo.  

My boyfriend and I will be moving from DC to Jacksonville, FL, where we will stay for 3 years because he got into the cardiology program there.  I am excited to get out of the city, and live near the beach, and have affordable housing and my own little yard.  But we have decided that we will not raise kids there, no matter how much we enjoy it.  Because it's just not fair to them- we will raise kids in the northeast.  We value opportunity, diversity, culture.  Kids who grow up in places like Utah are way behind in the game.