Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Hyde Schools => Topic started by: Ursus on January 29, 2008, 04:30:19 AM
Title: Re: HAPA
Post by: Ursus on January 29, 2008, 04:30:19 AM
When I was involved with Hyde, there were these... Admission Teas. These were hosted by some Hyde parent under the guise of "this worked for us, maybe this would be a good idea for your family." Some administrator or prominent faculty member from the school would also attend and give some presentation of "the Hyde School difference." And this was, in fact, just how my family first got suckered into Hyde School.
It is not until your family is actually involved with the place, that you begin to realize just how much pressure there is placed on families to get involved in recruitment like this. It is expected of you. Not only the school, but also other parents, will be undoubtedly be calling you.
In fact, lack of such involvement will probably bode ill for your kid. The sins of the parent will be borne by the child. "Lack of commitment" is generally and often seen as being a family-wide disease.
Title: Re: HAPA — an LGAT
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2008, 08:31:42 AM
HAPA is part of the Cult activities. Have you ever seen any legitimate college prep work so hard to recruit followers? Isn't necessary with the good college preps. I agree with Hyde that they are a unique school, but they need to be honest as to why they are unique. They are a Cult for troubled youth, not a college prep school as they advertise. Education is secondary to the indoctorination. When I was there the credentials of most staff were not very impressive. Hyde, time to make up your mind what kind of school you want to be and then market yourself as so.
Title: Re: HAPA -- a friggin newage cult
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2008, 08:50:29 AM
Quote from: "non believer"
HAPA is part of the Cult activities. ...Education is secondary to the indoctorination.
ALL. TOO. TRUE.
Title: Re: HAPA — an LGAT
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2008, 09:50:08 AM
Hey put up a poll:
Is Hyde a Cult?
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT, SGAT, w/e...
Post by: Ursus on February 03, 2008, 10:02:30 AM
Quote
You will reclaim the magic of growth you found working the Hyde process.
So... HAPA now has its own website: http://www.hapaonline.org/ (http://www.hapaonline.org/)
I visited, and found the following piece on "Workshops in 2008" prominently featured:
Workshops focus on relationship, personal growth & step-parenting/blended family issues (http://http://www.hapaonline.org/2008nationalhapaworkshops)
A new series of national HAPA workshops in 2008 on the Bath and Woodstock campuses offer HAPA parents a chance to continue the Hyde process and go deeper. Hyde will be offering workshops focusing on relationship issues, personal growth and the specific issues that arise in step parenting and blended families. Lee Mortenson and Carol Kirkland, both HAPA parents and principals in Relationship Training, LLC have agreed to serve as Hyde's National HAPA Coordinators and will offer the weekend intensives to HAPA parents and others.
"The Hyde process really offers parents a chance to be introspective and look at their personal issues. These workshops are aimed at those parents who want to go deeper into what's going on in their relationships and personal life," said Mortenson, adding, "The three day weekend workshops give couples and individuals an opportunity to strengthen their relationship with their partners and with themselves."
Mortenson and his wife, Carol Kirkland, facilitate workshops in Maryland and in Taos, New Mexico on relationship and work with individuals and couples in person and by phone. (You can find out more about their work at www.RelationshipTraining.Net (http://www.RelationshipTraining.Net)). The Spring 2008 Workshop schedule is as follows:
Feb 29-Mar 2 Weekend Intensive for couples and individuals in Woodstock, CT on relationship, personal growth issues.
May 23-25 Weekend Intensive for couples and individuals in Bath, Maine at the Family Renewal Center on relationship, personal growth issues.
Coming this Summer: Weekend Intensives for couples and individuals in Bath, Maine at the Family Renewal Center on relationship, personal growth issues.
Coming in the Fall: Weekend Intensives for couples and individuals on relationship with an emphasis on step-parenting and blended family issues.
Costs for these residential workshops are $450/individual, $900/couple (some scholarships are available). Note: enrollment for each workshop is limited to 10 individuals.
For information on the workshops, contact Lee Mortenson at [email protected] (http://mailto:[email protected]). To request a Workshop on-line, click here and tell us which weekend you'd like to attend.
Title: Re: HAPA — an LGAT
Post by: Anonymous on February 03, 2008, 12:14:46 PM
Thanks for posting this info on the great opportunities Hyde is offering. I think the wife and I will sign up to the may personal growth tuneup in Bath. The Unique elements Hyde offers help build strong relationships. Thanks again Ursus.
Title: Re: HAPA
Post by: Anonymous on February 03, 2008, 12:20:43 PM
Quote
A new series of national HAPA workshops in 2008 on the Bath and Woodstock campuses offer HAPA parents a chance to continue the Hyde process and go deeper. Hyde will be offering workshops focusing on relationship issues, personal growth and the specific issues that arise in step parenting and blended families. Lee Mortenson and Carol Kirkland, both HAPA parents and principals in Relationship Training, LLC have agreed to serve as Hyde's National HAPA Coordinators and will offer the weekend intensives to HAPA parents and others.
"The Hyde process really offers parents a chance to be introspective and look at their personal issues. These workshops are aimed at those parents who want to go deeper into what's going on in their relationships and personal life," said Mortenson, adding, "The three day weekend workshops give couples and individuals an opportunity to strengthen their relationship with their partners and with themselves."
Quote
Costs for these residential workshops are $450/individual, $900/couple (some scholarships are available).
Sounds like "Marriage Boot Camp" was in the right ballpark alright. lol
Title: Re: HAPA — an LGAT
Post by: Anonymous on February 03, 2008, 12:59:09 PM
Look at this Hyde magic! This Dad looks like he has a really close relationship with his daughter.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Ursus on February 03, 2008, 01:20:04 PM
Aw Geez... Jim Carroll and new wife Shelly.
Quote
"New Life - New Marriage"
"Through this awesome learning process you will find new hope and a new love for yourself and life. Your outlook on life will change. Best of all, you will have the tools to help resolve current and future issues as well as making your dreams happen."
Jim Carroll... who practically credits 'Dr. Phil' for saving his life... Dr. Phil, on the other hand, crediting no one, least of all his former partner Thelma Box who came up with most of that crap... much - if not most - of it based on John Hanley Sr.'s Lifespring (http://http://fornits.com/smf/index.php?topic=24603), a competitor of est in its time...
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT, SGAT, w/e...
Post by: Ursus on February 03, 2008, 01:22:54 PM
More words of wisdom from Lee Mortenson and Carol Kirkland...
Once you've talked about your inner life at a seminar and felt some of the relief of digging it out, there's a desire for more... and not many places or people who are as interested as you might be to talk openly and share from a vulnerable place.
I wonder if HAPA is interested in digging out all the PTSD and worse that many former Hyde students and their families have had to cope with, consequent to the "magic of growth" that "working the Hyde process" entails...
HAPA Issues from Lee & Carol Occasional thoughts from Lee Mortenson & Carol Kirkland on Hyde, HAPA and life beyond the campus walls
The Willingness to Dig Deeper (http://http://www.hapaonline.org/hapathoughtsfromlee%26carol)
One of the participants at the recent Woodstock Relationship workshop said it in a way that I heard loud and clear: "I've never been able to talk with anyone the same way after Hyde. Hyde families are willing to get under the surface and dig in deeper."
That's been our experience as well. Of course, that's what happens at Hyde. We all come here with our kids and then find out that we need as much work as they do... maybe more. And there's nothing like working with your family to bring out the dark side that we've carefully hidden from everyone... even ourselves.
The interesting thing is that a lot of folks get hooked on the experience. They've looked elsewhere for opportunities to get past their veneer and finding a "doorway" inside is not always easy to find amongst the clutter at the mall and the office.
Once you've talked about your inner life at a seminar and felt some of the relief of digging it out, there's a desire for more... and not many places or people who are as interested as you might be to talk openly and share from a vulnerable place.
That's not to say that you can't start something. I've noticed that it doesn't matter how formal the setting, when someone starts to speak from a more vulnerable and open place, other folks start to listen and respond... and the opportunities for many of us are limited.
So, what's a HAPA to do?
First, there's regional HAPA groups that develop out of Hyde parents that still want to meet and talk in a way that is different. While energy fluctuates for local gatherings, it may be on the rise again now. Regional meetings honoring the contributions to Laurie and Paul Hurd are in the offing and they are a great chance to network with old Hyde acquaintances and get something going.
This year there are a series of HAPA events (more to come) that allow HAPAs to dig in a little deeper with like-minded folks. You can go fishing with Rich Truluck up in Maine, join Claire Grant for a Women's Renewal weekend on the beach in North Carolina, or attend a residential Relationship workshop at one of the two campuses. And, starting this month, there will be an opportunity to network through the www.HAPAonline.org (http://www.HAPAonline.org) web site. Check out our HAPA-2-HELP-U online group, where you can ask for help or see if there's someone in your area who is willing to join you in digging in deeper!
Title: Re: HAPA — an LGAT
Post by: Anonymous on February 03, 2008, 06:39:17 PM
I spoke to the wife about these amazing opportunities to strengthen our relationship. She is unwilling to attend. I never realized how shallow and uncommitted she is. Thanks to Hyde we will be seeking a legal separation.
Title: Re: HAPA — an LGAT
Post by: Joseph W. Gauld on February 03, 2008, 07:26:30 PM
Quote from: "no one can get any"
I spoke to the wife about these amazing opportunities to strengthen our relationship. She is unwilling to attend. I never realized how shallow and uncommitted she is. Thanks to Hyde we will be seeking a legal separation.
Well, "no one," ya gotta join HAPA and have a heart to heart with my main man Lee. I would say "Maine man," har har, but Lee insists on stayin' in Baltimore due to his burgeoning "relationship coaching" practice and all those MANS GROUPS he's got hisself involved with.
Lee's got the right idear, "no one;" if the old bag don't put out no mores, trade 'er in fer the newer model. Lee's on his fourth these days; finally got it right by pickin' someone 'bout a foot shorter'n him and a former employee to boot! That goes fer a lot in makin' sher the little woman knows how to treat her man, har har har!!
Lee will also be able ta tell ya a cotten-pickin' kaboodle 'bout what it means ta be a MAN and to rid yerself of yer wuss-loaded sniveling panty-waist ways. He knows the real-deal score on hows to get "past [the] veneer and finding a 'doorway' inside" to the true meaning of MAN POWER!!!
Virile to the core, and glad to pass it around, Joseph W. Gauld, The Educator
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Anonymous on February 04, 2008, 03:15:23 PM
Quote from: "tell me where it hurts"
Hey put up a poll:
Is Hyde a Cult?
Hey, good idea! Can one of you diehards do it?
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Anonymous on February 04, 2008, 04:16:51 PM
Cult poll, Cult poll! Cult poll! Transmissions from Venus. I have to go fly my astral plane.
Tim O'Leary
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Joseph W. Gauld on February 04, 2008, 05:01:59 PM
Quote from: "Mrs O'Leary's son"
Cult poll, Cult poll! Cult poll! Transmissions from Venus. I have to go fly my astral plane.
Tim O'Leary
Awright, Timmyboy, ya got yer wish!! Cult Poll link here:
Lee was born in Chicago, Illinois in 1948. Over the next five decades, he received 4 academic degrees, founded several successful businesses and wrote and edited a large number of publications in professional journals. (For more details on Lee's professional and academic history, click here (http://http://www.relationshiptraining.net/contactus23)).
While his professional career was externally rewarding, his personal life lead him to deeper introspection and on an entirely different journey. By the early 1990's, Lee had been married and divorced three times. While he had all of the standard signs of "success", he was depressed and recognized that he was a party to all of the "failures" of his marriages. His successes didn't seem to "feed" him in any meaningful way.
At first, Lee sought professional help, then was involved in a number of local and national Men's groups, attending the New Warriors weekend initiation adventure in 1992 and, in the late 1980's and early 1990's, managed several regional gatherings of men at Buffalo Gap, West Virginia. Each of these experiences helped him to understand a little more about his inner issues, and when he began a new relationship with Carol, he decided it was time to dig deeper. This lead to a decade long involvement with Doug and Naomi Moseley, two teachers who focus on relationships to others and to yourself. Over the past decade, Lee moved from an occasional workshop attendee to an interest in assisting in Intimacy Training. In 2003 he began a four-year apprenticeship with the Moseleys, working with clients and groups. In 2008, he and Carol join the Moseley training staff, assisting with some of the week-long trainings in Taos, NM, in addition to their practice in Maryland.
Carol was born in Chapel Hill, North Carolina in 1954. After attending business school and the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, she worked in the pathology department at UNC, at an otology practice in Nashville, Tennessee, and finally at ELM, where she served as Vice President for the firm's large Association Management Division for 17 years. Carol retired in 2002.
Carol had been married twice before she and Lee entered into a relationship... and she was hesitant, to say the least, about the "M"-word (marriage). And, to a man with two young children... dangerous territory, indeed! Developing a strong internal relationship in addition to a relationship with Lee that is vital and strong and the challenges of being a step-mother have all been part of her work over the last decade. Carol began to attend Moseley-led intimacy training workshops in 1998, and three years ago, entered into their training apprenticeship, working with clients and facilitating groups. In addition to her Relationship Training activities, she will be serving as staff on week-long trainings for Intimacy Training in New Mexico during 2008.
Lee and Carol as Partners
First in business, then in relationship, and now as Partners in Relationship Training, LLC, Lee and Carol have worked together as partners for more than two decades.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Anonymous on February 05, 2008, 07:25:19 AM
Poor fellow. In Ursus's gunsights.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Ursus on February 05, 2008, 01:27:21 PM
From my previous post, emphasis added:
Quote
At first, Lee sought professional help, then was involved in a number of local and national Men's groups, attending the New Warriors weekend initiation adventure in 1992 and, in the late 1980's and early 1990's, managed several regional gatherings of men at Buffalo Gap, West Virginia. Each of these experiences helped him to understand a little more about his inner issues, and when he began a new relationship with Carol, he decided it was time to dig deeper. This lead to a decade long involvement with Doug and Naomi Moseley, two teachers who focus on relationships to others and to yourself. Over the past decade, Lee moved from an occasional workshop attendee to an interest in assisting in Intimacy Training. In 2003 he began a four-year apprenticeship with the Moseleys, working with clients and groups. In 2008, he and Carol join the Moseley training staff, assisting with some of the week-long trainings in Taos, NM, in addition to their practice in Maryland.
New Warriors weekend initiation adventure is put on by The Mankind Project. This group has earned a spot on Rick Ross's Cult Watch site. The lineage of its evolution even includes an early disciple of Werner Erhard from back in his est days.
Here is a promotional YouTube clip put out by the organization:
Mankind Project New Warrior Training Adventure Testimonials http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFdLLyRzbto (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFdLLyRzbto)[/list]
And here are a couple put out by one its fans:
~ IS THIS A HE-MAN WOMAN HATERS CLUB? ~ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubMzPZAX9h8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubMzPZAX9h8)[/list]
REAL MEN DON'T APOLOGIZE - not A BIT OF ME http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxl-wvDc8Es (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxl-wvDc8Es)[/list]
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: HG on February 07, 2008, 01:50:03 AM
Mankind project sounds familiar. Is it connected to Sterling?
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Ursus on February 07, 2008, 10:15:18 AM
Quote from: "HG"
Mankind project sounds familiar. Is it connected to Sterling?
The Mankind Project was founded in 1985 by Rich Tosi, Bill Kauth, and Ron Hering. One of the primary indoctrination tools they use is called the New Warrior Training Adventure.
Rich Tosi - former Marine - 10 yrs, served in Vietnam, worked as an Industrial Engineer for General Motors for awhile;
Bill Kauth - Masters degree in Psychology, self-styled feminist, experience with Gestalt psychology, author of A Circle of Men: The Original Manual for Men's Support Groups;
Ron Hering - PhD in Curriculum Studies, university prof(?), seminar leader, professional coach, 25 yrs personal-growth training experience.
Kauth attended a seminar called "Understanding Yourself and Others" put on by David DuRovy and his wife Patricia. This particular seminar was facilitated by Rich Tosi. DuRovy later became an initiate of the New Warriors Training Adventure.
Kauth and Tosi, with or without Hering (conflicting stories), soon later attended a workshop called "Men, Sex, and Power" put on by Justin Sterling. This seminar is now simply called "Sterling Seminars." Much of the seminar's content formed the basis of NWTA. Sterling was an early disciple of Werner Erhard in Werner's earlier incarnation. (Sterling Seminars also has a spot on Rick Ross's site.).
Both Kauth and Tosi are still involved with MKP in various ways, although they also do their own thing, which is another story in and of itself. Ron Hering was murdered by his girlfriend's father for allegedly molesting his granddaughter. MKP has seen fit to honor his memory by creating the "Ron Hering Mission of Service Award" for outstanding New Warriors. (Hey, come to think of it, that's kinda like becoming a member of the Sumner Hawley Society, eh?).
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Anonymous on February 08, 2008, 04:26:03 AM
Maybe a little strange. But this is more about Mr. Mortenson's passed, not what he does now.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Ursus on February 08, 2008, 01:15:17 PM
Quote from: "guest"
Maybe a little strange. But this is more about Mr. Mortenson's passed, not what he does now.
Not necessarily... Although I don't know what Lee Mortenson's activities with MKP currently are, I don't think he and his wife would have brought it up and put it on their website, if they did not consider it relevant to, or at least in philosophical accord with, the work they do now.
Their website, RelationshipTraining.net, appears to be part of a small "web ring" of sites that all connect to one another. Although it isn't "officially" designated as such, if you go to any of these other sites, they all list each other as "affiliates" or "partners."
http://www.relationshiptraining.net (http://www.relationshiptraining.net) (Lee Mortenson and Carol Kirkland) http://www.relationshipcounselling.ca (http://www.relationshipcounselling.ca) (Lisa and Ken Little) http://www.consciouslives.com (http://www.consciouslives.com) (Gail Waldman) http://www.intimacytraining.com (http://www.intimacytraining.com) (Doug and Naomi Moseley)[/list] All of the people noted in the first three sites underwent, or are in the process of completing, a 4-yr training program in "The Moseley Method," taught by the couple noted in the last site. There are actually even more "disciples" and some of their sites noted on the Moseley's site, on the "Retreat Staffing (http://http://www.intimacytraining.com/home32)" page. I'm getting the impression -- which may very well be wrong, of course -- that coming back to work as staff for retreats on the "Mother Campus" may, in fact, be part of the whole arrangement in getting this "training" in the first place.
Do note the Numero Uno quote on the Testimonials page (http://http://www.intimacytraining.com/home10) of the Moseleys's site:
"I'm so grateful for your help in opening me up to the parts of myself I couldn't see and the shadows and patterns I only knew of vaguely and uncomfortably. Now that I see these I can do something about them and choose a lively, engaged life with my wife that was impossible before." Alan Gilburg, executive in Mankind Project, Washington, DC
Perhaps more importantly is the similarity in the lingo I see used in both MKP material as well as Moseley-related material... I have come across phrases and concepts like "working with your Shadow" (or "Shadow-work"), the "Integrity of the Container," "digging deeper," and "feeding relationships"... Anybody hear any of this language at Hyde or HAPA functions?
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Anonymous on February 09, 2008, 09:32:01 AM
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Anonymous on February 09, 2008, 12:16:52 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
www.relationshiptraining.net (Lee Mortenson and Carol Kirkland)
www.relationshipcounselling.ca (Lisa and Ken Little)
www.consciouslives.com (Gail Waldman)
http://www.intimacytraining.com (Doug and Naomi Moseley)
All of the people noted in the first three sites underwent, or are in the process of completing, a 4-yr training program in "The Moseley Method," taught by the couple noted in the last site. There are actually even more "disciples" and some of their sites noted on the Moseley's site, on the "Retreat Staffing (http://http://www.intimacytraining.com/home32)" page. I'm getting the impression -- which may very well be wrong, of course -- that coming back to work as staff for retreats on the "Mother Campus" may, in fact, be part of the whole arrangement in getting this "training" in the first place.
((((LMFAO)))) Just sub in "Hyde" for "Moseley" and "character development" for "Moseley Method". What is this four year training? Highschool for parents going thru midlife crisis?
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Ursus on February 09, 2008, 01:08:04 PM
Also... Aside from the similarity in lingo used, check out the general tenor of the "Moseley disciple" sites, especially when it comes to the personal bio pages. It's almost as if a single entity either set up or "polished up" each website. Each bio tells essentially the same tale, with but minor variations of:
a successful and rewarding professional life, generally financially rewarding as well;
confession of a previously stagnant personal life, one which was not "feeding" one enough;
the recognition of the need or desire to change and "dig deeper;"
several years spent taking workshops and the like from the Moseleys;
consequent restored meaning to their lives, and renewed life to their relationships;
embarkment on the 4-yr training program with the Moseleys;
creation of their own relationship coaching endeavors, complete with personal website.
Note also the general construction of the sites; looks like the same template was used for all of them. The icons used for the URLs are all the same (which, incidentally, is the also same icon used for the HAPA site).
Earlier, I posted the About Us page (http://http://fornits.com/smf/http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=308089#p308089) from Lee Mortenson & Carol Kirkland's site Relationship Training, LLC ("Support for your intimate relationships with others and with yourself"). Here is the analogous page from Lisa & Ken Little... Actually, it looks like it really is primarily Lisa Little. Ken makes his living being an attorney in Calgary, according to testimony allegedly left by him on the Moseley's site.
It would appear that the Littles are not quite as far along in this process as our HAPA friends in suburban Washington-DC are. If I read the material correctly, they may not have finished their 4-yr apprenticeship yet, and the site does not yet have a Testimonials page...
Relationship Counselling For a more intimate relationship with yourself and others
About Lisa Little (http://http://www.relationshipcounselling.ca/aboutus)
Lisa was born in Niagara Falls, Canada in 1955. She attended the University of Calgary where she received her Undergraduate degree in Psychology and her Graduate degree in Counselling Psychology. She is a Chartered Psychologist.
Her professional career has included support for autistic children and their families and five years working at a residential treatment Centre, Woods Homes, with behaviorally and emotionally challenged teenagers and their families. In the late 80's, she accepted a position as a tenured faculty member with Mount Royal College, providing support in the Counselling Department and teaching Psychology courses in the Behavioral Sciences Department.
Five years ago, Lisa chose to leave her academic position to strengthen her parental support for her teenage son and launched Relationship Counselling to support individuals and couples hungry for more intimate relationships with themselves and others. The practice uses a unique emotional-body focused approach to relationship, based upon the work of Douglas & Naomi Moseley.
On a more personal note, Lisa has been married to Ken Little for almost 25 years. Most of these years were spent living in a brother-sister type of relationship and there was little emotional and sexual intimacy between them. Years of withholding from one another contributed to the deadening of the relationship and the Littles were close to separating when they were referred to the Moseleys.
Recognizing their own need for a change, Lisa and Ken have been doing their personal and relational work together for the past seven years and, having experienced the richness of doing a deeper type of work, joined a small group of students in the Moseley four year apprenticeship program.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Ursus on February 10, 2008, 10:00:55 AM
And... Here, below, is Gail Waldman's About-Me page. Gail is also in the suburban Washington-DC area. In fact, I first came across her name on the Testimony page (http://http://www.relationshiptraining.net/references) of Lee Mortenson and Carol Kirkland's "Relationship Training" site:
"I would highly recommend Lee and Carol to anyone who is looking to learn more about themselves and their relationships. Lee and Carol are skilled and caring guides who have a knack of getting to the heart of an issue. If you are seeking clarity, I'd give then a call."
-- Gail Waldman, personal growth coach North Bethesda, Maryland[/list][/list]
In fact, it would appear that there is an awful LOT of mutual testimony going on around here...
Conscious Lives Conscious Relationships with ourselves, our families and our world
... A Note from Gail (http://http://www.consciouslives.com/aboutgail)
Gail Waldman, President Conscious Lives, LLC Personal Growth Coach
When my first husband and I separated in 1984, my fear propelled me into a whole new professional life. Suddenly I was single; totally on my own for the first time. I needed a career that generated some real income... and I needed it fast.
New York City, where I was born and grew up, is an expensive place to live. My educational background, a BA in Psychology from Adelphi University, and a decade of business experience in law, advertising, publishing and fashion sales were a strong base and I wanted to be self-sufficient. I found a good match in work as a Certified Personnel Consultant (CPC) working for over 20 years, matching employers and employees and eventually serving as a VP at two publicly traded employment service agencies.
After more than a decade as a single self-sufficient professional, I met Arnie Waldman, who later became my husband. It was during our rocky courtship that I decided it was time to dig deeper. The prospect of another failed relationship was daunting after having already tried traditional therapy and after having attended many personal growth workshops. Both of us were successful in business, but intimate relationships were another story.
Originally I believed that the problem with our relationship was Arnie and I needed to get him fixed. I later learned that we each needed to do our own work before we could expect our relationship to work.
I began work with a couple who focus on intimacy and relationship. That couple, Doug and Naomi Moseley, are excellent teachers... and over most of the last decade I've gone from client to student to coach.
Today, life is very full. Arnie and I have been married for 8 years. My family and I are no longer estranged and, in fact, I hunger for more time with them! I have a new home and community of nurturing friends in Maryland. I have discovered that vital relationships continue to change, and I must change and adapt with them. These, and many other small changes, have made my life much more exciting and fun. I feel more passionate and alive.
If you are not living as passionately as you would like, if you have an urge to know yourself better and have more intimacy in your life, I am available to help support your journey.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Anonymous on February 11, 2008, 05:48:22 AM
Quote
After more than a decade as a single self-sufficient professional, I met Arnie Waldman, who later became my husband.
Hey!! Arnie Waldman?!! Would that be the same Arnie Waldman mentioned at the end of a recent Mankind Project publication put out by its Greater Washington branch??!!
From the October 2007 Issue of Bullskin, a publication of the Greater Washington Center of MKP, pp 12-14:
PUTTING ELDER ENERGY TO WORK ON A NWTA Story by Ed Modell PASSIONATE BUFFALO
As initiators of men, We carry forward, To this weekend, The wisdom of the ages! THEME OF JUNE 2007 NWTA
The Ritual Elder (R.E.) role on a NWTA is primarily to shepherd blessing energy, caring for both the staff and the initiates. Curiously (if not intentionally), there is no R.E. protocol, though several protocols do assign individual tasks to the R.E. So each NWTA is an adventure in itself for the R.E. to define his role, determine his relationship to the weekend leader team, and to put his own ego aside for 72 hours, which is no easier task for any staff member.
The June 2007 NWTA was a particularly challenging and rewarding one for me as the R.E. because the weekend leader, Tom Pittner (formerly of NYC, now of LA) called on ALL the elders on staff to put blessing energy to work in active service. I'm sharing one unique task in the hope that it will inspire other weekend leaders to consider putting the elders to work in the same or some other creative way.
After the Friday morning staff meeting, Tom called a circle of the elders on staff to discuss the eight MKPI core values and an additional four values that the NYC Center has added: Integrity, Mission, Generosity, Diversity, Humility, Authenticity, Generativity, Vision, Compassion, Service, Transformation, and Accountability. He assigned one elder to each value, and to report later when the staff exhibited it. Here is an abridged version of the observations:
INTEGRITY One of the innumerable ways that I saw integrity over the weekend was the depth of feeling that Chris Hull showed doing the context presentations, particularly in the Sunday morning circle.
SERVICE On the GUTS floor, I have always been awed by the men who put themselves in physical danger with initiates to give them the resistance and challenge they need to break out of their heads. This weekend, Dan Logan was one of the men who did that on my guts team, while providing the additional amusement of instinctively going for a one-leg takedown with an initiate who started to turn his process into a wrestling match. And Dan did his usual job of being everywhere for facilities with whatever was needed. Let's never take the facilities men for granted.
GENEROSITY I saw many demonstrations of generosity.
• The giveaway by MOS/Hearthkeepers as they held the container, freeing the staff from the need to worry about buying food and preparing meals.
• The giveaway of our community with more than 30 brother dancers showing up Saturday night.
• The giveaway of the men on staff, giving up their time to support the new brothers of this weekend.
• The giveaway of staff men supporting other staff by mentoring and, when needed, assisting them in getting assignments done.
AUTHENTICITY I judge that one of the hardest times to be authentic is when we know we have given all we are and all we have and recognize that it was not enough. I recognized that on the GUTS floor several times and was grateful when senior men stepped in. Rob Ozello took the additional step of telling the staff meeting that with one man, he simply lacked the skills to help, was grateful that Tom Pitner came over.
DIVERSITY Geographical, Physical Appearance, Age, Years of Experience with MKP from Rookie Energy to X+ Staffings, many attributes that are visible or voiced, are acknowledged diverse energies of men at this weekend. What emerges, swirls among the container, bubbles up with power and energy, are the Gifts; Gold of each man that is profoundly diverse that provides for the richness at this weekend and moving out to the world that is THE WISDOM OF THE AGES.
HUMILITY I feel that Tom Pitner embodied this principle so well. He exemplified for me what I sense the Warrior Monk should be (even though I have never taken that training), low-key, but with tons of strength in reserve. I also felt that David Kaar exemplified this trait, yet willing to play second fiddle to Tom, whom he had mentored. Our organization is definitely in good hands, with leaders like these two men.
MISSION Our mission was clearly carried out this weekend, with intention, ease, and peace. This weekend modeled how it is when a mission is fulfilled with peace at the center. We were more than enough, and I was honored to be among this team supporting it and keeping watch over it.
COMPASSION I had to bless and honor my own compassion before I could bless and honor compassion when I saw it in others. And I saw it a lot, but most especially on the guts carpet as initiates and staff looked deeply into the face of the suffering of the initiates who were working. Without the level of compassion that is present at GUTS, the magic could not happen.
ACCOUNTABILITY I saw 40 staff men keeping their commitments, from filling out their forms, attending the pre-weekend staff meeting, showing up authentically, preparing their parts, being where they needed to be BEFORE they needed to be there, speaking their truth, taking risks, parking their egos for the sake of the new brothers, holding these new brothers in their hearts in a good way, protecting and cleaning up the site to honor our commitment with Claymont and planning a worthy celebration to honor them.
GENERATIVITY I witnessed the unassuming nature of our Elders in their support of other men online and offline. I was touched by the care we all took to share all we had with the next generation of Warriors. We all did great work sharing wisdom and knowledge throughout the weekend. The moments with Tom Pitner, as he assisted and worked with two young men with very challenging issues, sticks out for me. As a rookie staffer, I became more aware of how much I have to share as an Elder.
TRANSFORMATION To mine the gold from your shadow. The two types of transformation I believe I saw most often in men on the Weekend were: (1) Men who felt fear and walked into their fear. (2) Men whose egos traditionally constrained them released themselves from those constraints on the Weekend to serve the Initiates and fellow staff members. After I spoke to men about these shadow-mining behaviors I saw them confronting their fears and setting aside their egos. I saw many more behaviors where I would have liked to engage a man, but but The Journey Continued and I never got back to that man.
VISION I witnessed Vision in many ways on the weekend:
• Tom Pitner's guiding principle that the strength of the container was created by the focus of the individual men on the moment, on the union of the container and on the integrity of the container.
• Numerous examples by numerous men putting aside their egos and wants to maintain the union and the integrity of the container.
• Facilitation on the guts carpet (such as by Steve Shofar & Jon Wilson) which cut through the details of the story to the core of the man's work.
As Ritual Elder, I felt uplifted by the elder energy and I judge the rest of the staff and the initiates were as well. So I conclude by thanking the men who contributed their elder energy, many of whom also contributed their observations to this article: Clinton Anderson, James Brown, Michael Clawson, David Dozier, Mike Fallon, Mike Harrison, Todd Lowenberg, Randy Marks, David Morgenstein, Max Sampson, James Stamps, Arnie Waldman, Richard Warren, Mike Weiner, and Eric Weinstein.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Jesus H Christ on February 11, 2008, 06:51:44 AM
That all sounds pretty queer. "Passionate Buffalo?"
Title: Re: HAPA -- Party Time !!
Post by: Anonymous on February 11, 2008, 08:12:37 AM
At the behest of Passionate Buffalo, I come with many Brother Dancers to seek audience with the Galled One. I wish to mine the gold from his shadow. Is it "bend-over-Joe" time yet? (http://http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa156/mystyanderic/baphomet17.jpg)
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Anonymous on February 11, 2008, 09:59:11 AM
Pass me the "Sacred Stick" there, Brothah!!! I have something to share in Circle.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Ursus on February 11, 2008, 10:17:33 AM
Quote from: "guest"
Quote
After more than a decade as a single self-sufficient professional, I met Arnie Waldman, who later became my husband.
Hey!! Arnie Waldman?!! Would that be the same Arnie Waldman mentioned at the end of a recent Mankind Project publication put out by its Greater Washington branch??!!
...As Ritual Elder, I felt uplifted by the elder energy and I judge the rest of the staff and the initiates were as well. So I conclude by thanking the men who contributed their elder energy, many of whom also contributed their observations to this article: Clinton Anderson, James Brown, Michael Clawson, David Dozier, Mike Fallon, Mike Harrison, Todd Lowenberg, Randy Marks, David Morgenstein, Max Sampson, James Stamps, Arnie Waldman, Richard Warren, Mike Weiner, and Eric Weinstein.
There is also the seeming coincidence of the name Mike Weiner. Although it isn't the most unusual of names, I find it interesting that it also shows up on Lee Mortenson and Carol Kirkland's (Relationship Training, LLC) Testimonials page (http://http://www.relationshiptraining.net/references):
"…the work helped to balance me and center me. It wasn't a lightning strike out of the sky kind of thing, it was gentle and intuitive work, and it let me release more of the stuff I carry with me." Mike Weiner, CEO, Olney, Maryland
Title: Re: HAPA -- Party Time !!
Post by: Anonymous on February 11, 2008, 11:59:46 AM
Quote from: "Horny Old Goat"
At the behest of Passionate Buffalo, I come with many Brother Dancers to seek audience with the Galled One. I wish to mine the gold from his shadow. Is it "bend-over-Joe" time yet? (http://http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa156/mystyanderic/baphomet17.jpg)
Do not speak ill of a brother mason, and please don't lump us in with Robert Blye drum beating mens circles. We are a time honored fraternal order based on the wisdom of Solomon. Plus the Shriners are fun at parades.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Anonymous on February 11, 2008, 01:29:47 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
There is also the seeming coincidence of the name Mike Weiner. Although it isn't the most unusual of names, I find it interesting that it also shows up on Lee Mortenson and Carol Kirkland's (Relationship Training, LLC) Testimonials page (http://http://www.relationshiptraining.net/references):
"…the work helped to balance me and center me. It wasn't a lightning strike out of the sky kind of thing, it was gentle and intuitive work, and it let me release more of the stuff I carry with me." Mike Weiner, CEO, Olney, Maryland
The Mike Weiner connection is interesting--and its definitely the same guy--cause he is a professional propagandist. I did a little web snooping and came up with this "press release" (http://http://www.imagegenerators.com/main/pr01.htm):
Quote
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE New Partnership Created MusicOnHold.com and The Image Generators agree to marketing partnership
July 1, 2006- Advertising on-hold services (Telemmercials®) provided by The Image Generators have received a new national boost in sales, as the Company announced today it has affiliated with MusicOnHold.com, a major portal for businesses. President and CEO Michael J. Weiner announced the new arrangement, saying, "The advertising on-hold benefits to businesses are being recognized by marketers, and many times their first stop is an internet search for music on-hold. MusicOnHold.com has established itself as the forerunner in lead generation referrals to The Image Generators. The affiliation has provided our Company with a dramatic increase in sales opportunities as we move forward in our growth path."
The Image Generators was founded in 1985, and delivers high quality voice-over, recording, audio and video services to clients in a diverse range of size, from Fortune 100 to 'mom and pop' businesses. The Company has grown to include several high powered senior advertising, public relations and marketing communications experts. It is under contract with GSA for Advertising and Integrated Marketing Services, and is a qualified small, veteran-owned business.
Written by Joe Mancini, Narrated by Mike Weiner, this 10 minute piece will help visualize health and healing towards MKP GW Administrator Erick Hoopes, who is in hospital with cardiac issues awaiting... Don't do your own brain surgery... or your own Podcast... if you want to survive!
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Ursus on February 11, 2008, 05:36:41 PM
Okay... Rehash Moment, since there is such a huge load of material to digest thus far... Feel free to correct me if I am wrong 'bout any of the following:
The current HAPA National Coordinators (husband and wife) appear to be part of a small group of "relationship coaches" who practice the "Moseley Method of Intimacy Training." This group appears to have multiple links to The Mankind Project, which is thought -- by some -- to be a cult given its Werner Erhard/est ancestry amongst other features. The current HAPA National Coordinators are, moreover, conducting a series of workshops on the Hyde boarding school campuses this year. The workshops have to do with various aspects of relationships, parenting, blended families, and the like...
Title: OH MAN, WHAT KIND OF PROJECT IS THIS?
Post by: Ursus on February 12, 2008, 02:01:16 PM
Here's an article from midwestoutreach.org that gives a bit more insight as to what actually goes on at MKP, as well as some info as to its origins and philosophical evolution from other LGATs. I imagine that the religious focus of the original publisher has a lot to do with the number of quotes from the Bible at the article's end; however, this may very well reflect Roggeman's personal philosophy as well.
Midwest Christian Outreach, Inc. Journal; Winter 2006, pp8-10[/list]
==========================================
OH MAN, WHAT KIND OF PROJECT IS THIS? (http://http://www.midwestoutreach.org/Pdf%20Journals/2006/winter06.pdf) EXPOSING THE INDECENT EXPOSURE OF THE MANKIND PROJECT By Mark Roggeman
Aside from the obvious physical differences, there is a marked contrast in how men and women relate to their friends. For example: If Laura, Suzanne, Debra and Rose go out for lunch, they will call each other Laura, Suzanne, Debra and Rose. But if Mike, Charlie, Bob, and John go out to grab a bite, they will affectionately refer to each other as Fat Boy, Godzilla, Peanut-Head, and Useless. When the bill arrives, Fat Boy, Godzilla, Peanut-Head, and Useless each will throw in $20--even though the tab is only for $22.50. None of them will have anything smaller, and none will actually admit they want change back. When the girls get their bill, out come the pocket calculators.
A man has six items in his bathroom: a toothbrush, shaving cream, razor, a bar of soap, and a towel from the Holiday Inn. It seems like the average number of items in the typical woman's bathroom is 337. A man would not be able to identify many of these items.
When it comes to children, a woman seems to be all knowing. She knows about dentist appointments and romances, best friends, favorite foods, secret fears, hopes, and dreams. A man is vaguely aware of some short people living in the house.1
The Vanishing Manly Man
Over the last 30 years or so, there seems to be an increasing concern that men have forgotten, or more to the point, not had role models to demonstrate manhood. To solve this "crisis" both inside and outside the church, books have been written and groups have arisen to guide and train men in being manly.
One such group is the Mankind Project (MKP) which is an international men's network of interdependent centers with members in the United States, Canada, the United Kingdom, France, Germany, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, and other countries. The primary instructional tool of this organization is called the New Warrior Training Adventure (NWTA)--a weekend retreat where the supposed goal is to empower men to regain their masculinity. In 1985, Rich Tosi, Bill Kauth, and Ron Hering came together, whose collective backgrounds and influences contributed to the creation of the Mankind Project.
Tosi's background was in the United States Marines as a captain who served in Vietnam. He brought a military influence to the MKP training. Kauth, who has a Master's Degree in Psychology and was a self-styled feminist, is the author of A Circle of Men: The Original Manual for Men's Support Groups--the training manual for men's support groups. Hering's contribution was his ability to instruct others to become effective leaders. He had a doctorate in education and was a teacher, seminar leader, and professional coach.
The New Warrior Training Adventure weekend is the compilation of several other human-potential seminars spanning four decades. Kauth attended a seminar called Understanding Yourself and Others (UYO), where he met Tosi who was one of the facilitators. UYO was started by David Durovy and his wife, Patricia. Durovy became an initiate of the first New Warrior Training Adventure. Kauth, Tosi, and Hering attended a workshop called Men, Sex, and Power in California offered by Justin Sterling. These weekends are currently called Sterling Seminars. The techniques learned there are a major part of the NWTA. Sterling was an early disciple of Werner Erhard who founded what was then known as Erhard Seminars Training (EST). Today, EST has transformed itself into the Landmark Forum. Men, Sex, and Power (Sterling Seminars) was the outgrowth of Sterling's training with EST. Kauth's experience with Gestalt psychology was added to the NWTA.2
Training the Trainers
MKP history comes through a long line of Human-Potential Movements that began in the 1960's. It started with Mind Dynamics by Alexander Everett who arrived in America in 1962 from England and lived in Missouri for a year and then moved to Forth Worth, Texas where he helped establish a private boarding school. Everett's Mind Dynamics was influenced through his involvement with Unity Ministry in England, Edgar Casey's work, Theosophy, Rosicrucianism, Egyptology, and Silva Mind Control.3
William Penn Patrick was a student of Everett. He used both Mind Dynamics and the Silva Mind Control Method in his pyramid sales organization called Holiday Magic. He also started another organization called Leadership Dynamics which proved to be detrimental to people. The information on this is detailed in a book called The Pit: A Group Encounter Defiled by Gene Church. According to Church, the hard-hitting, confrontational group encounters went out of control. As a result, lawsuits were filed which caused both organizations to shut down.4
Many of the instructors from these two groups went on to found their own organizations using many of the same behavior-modification techniques. The goals were to bring people to their highest potential and to overcome their fears. Their method was to break them down by screaming insults at them in order to have them face their fears. The theory behind this abusiveness was that, in order to change one's behavior, one must be brought down to zero in order to build them up again.
The following list of instructors from Mind Dynamics illustrates the flow of how these groups began and the direct influence each had on the other. Bob White, Randy Revell, Charlene Afremow, John Hanley founded Lifespring in 1974.5 Werner Erhard founded EST in 1971 which evolved into The Forum. Bob White left Lifespring, went to Japan, and started a training organization there called Life Dynamics. Randy Revell left Lifespring and founded the Context Trainings. Charlene Afremow joined Erhard's organization as a trainer. She later left in a dispute and is now back at Lifespring. Howard Nease founded Personal Dynamics. Jim Quinn founded Lifestream. Thomas Willhite founded PSI World Seminars. Stewart Emery worked for EST and later founded Actualizations. William Penn Patrick's training organization recovered and is known today as Leadership Dynamics.6 Justin Sterling was an early disciple of Werner Erhard who started the weekend conference (Men, Sex, and Power) today known as Sterling Seminars.
Embracing The New Age
Another major influence for the New Warrior Training Adventure for MKP is Robert Bly's writings and his influence on the men's movement. On the back cover of the training manual for leaders on the NWTA called The Circle of Men, Kauth credits Bly's influence. It states that the "wild man weekends" are inspired by the mythopoetic writings and personal testimonies of Robert Bly, Sam Keen and John Lee. It goes on to say that they followed Bly's practical advice he gave to gatherings of men to form small groups. Bly is quoted extensively in their writings. Bly has attended several of the weekends and continues to support MKP. Much of the Native American Indian Spiritualism and rituals performed at the NWTA weekends comes directly from Bly and the works of Carl G. Jung. Several books written by Bly are also used: Iron John, Little Book on the Human Shadow, and The Rag and Bone Shop of the Heart Poems for Men.
Some men are introduced to the weekend through informational classes that were held at Christian churches. In most cases, the church rented out their facility and were likely not aware of what this group is about. Inquiries from spouses and families came in due to personality changes that occurred in the men after they became involved with MKP.
In April 2003, three separate interviews were conducted with men who were participants a NWTA weekend and then spent time in MKP attending the small groups. One of these men was a facilitator and assisted at several weekend trainings. All these men requested that their names not be mentioned, as every man must sign an agreement stating that nothing can be said about what goes on. (This should be a giant red flag.) The current price for the NWTA weekend is $650.00 with a $100.00 deposit in advance. In Colorado and around the country, these trainings take place in the mountains at various retreat places.
Introduction To Warrior Work
The Mankind Project
A non-profit organization and network of independent centers working together to heal the world one man at a time.
Mission
We empower men to missions to service.
Identity Statement
We are an order of men called to reclaim the sacred masculine for our time; through initiation, training, and action in the world.
Core Organizing and Guiding Principle
We empower the evolution of consciousness in each man in our culture.
Principles of Our Order
1.) I create my own perception of reality. 2.) My outer reality exists as a reflection of my inner world. 3.) Higher states of consciousness exist and reflect greater abilities to manifest my inner reality. 4.) Higher states of consciousness embody a life of service, compassion, and unconditional love. 5.) My work towards higher consciousness starts within. 6.) My inner work begins with awareness of feelings which become the doorway for discovering and owning my shadows and wounds. 7.) Healing of my wounds comes from releasing my judgments and forgiving from my heart. 8.) My personal life mission becomes my guiding force that transcends my wounds and moves me beyond healing into joyous service. 9.) I take personal responsibility and am accountable for living in integrity with my mission.
Principles Poetically Put
We empower men to manifest their potential fully and joyfully, trusting that they will create the healthy solutions needed by our society and planet.
7[/list]
A Typical Men's Weekend
Upon arrival on Friday evening, each man is SMUDGED with burned incense that is placed on sage sticks. This is an American Indian ritual that is done to cleanse and keep the evil sprits away. It is claimed this ritual washes away the cares and negative energy of the day. As the men arrive, the facilitators greet them by shouting several times the question, "WHY ARE YOU HERE?" The facilitators look directly into their eyes and tell each man they have power you don't even know about. All who were interviewed related that it seemed to be very similar to a recruit's introduction to boot camp. The men arrive on Friday at different times due to their own schedules ranging from late afternoon until evening. While the men wait for the others to arrive, they are directed to sit in a dark room, told to be silent, and not to grin or laugh. Some of the men sat in this room for over two hours as they waited for all to arrive.
Once everyone arrived, each man had to go through two stations. At the first station, they were asked in a loud voice, "Are you ready to change your life forever?" They were told that they had to give up all jewelry and electronic devices they brought with them. At the second station, each man was told that they were no longer to be called by their name. They were given a number and told they would be called that number throughout the weekend. They were then asked if they had given up all their jewelry and electronic devices at the first station. They were told, if they still had any of these things, to empty their pockets and place the items on the table. Several times men had electric razors in their possession; they were called liars and loudly ridiculed. The facilitators were yelling at them saying, "Can't you understand?" There were times when the group leaders would let someone go past the first station purposely with jewelry and electronic devices and set them up to be humiliated at the second station.
There was a one-to-one ratio of a group leaders and new participants. The new recruits to manhood had very little time alone. Very little food was provided the first two days except for snacks such as apples and nuts. On Sunday just before they left, a banquet was provided in honor of their graduation. The activities went well into the night which did not leave much time for sleep.
On Saturday, there were classes centered on the philosophy of what it means to be a man and a warrior. They were told how men have been emasculated by society and by the women in their lives. It was explained that this was because many of our fathers abandoned us emotionally; the result is that men were raised by their mothers who also emasculated them. They said that women do not know how to raise a boy to be a man--that they should be taught and raised by men. The claim is that the real goal of a man is to be a warrior and, in many cases, their mothers and wives held them back from their full potential to be a man. The main objective, then, is to regain the power that was taken away from men. Women, it seems, are the ever-present enemy.
They are encouraged in sessions to share about times they were shamed while growing up. These are wounds that were hidden and now need to be dealt with. At one session, a male phallic symbol was passed around signifying what it means to be a man; they were encouraged to talk about sexual experiences.
Saturday afternoon, the "Trust Walk" takes place. This involves the men going on a walk in the nude wearing only shoes and a blindfold. This is to promote trust in the leaders in following someone blindly for about an hour. When they returned from the walk, many of the previous graduates of the NWTA showed up. The men, still naked, now were dancing to the sound of drums. The object of this is to get all your inhibitions out. They allege if you can do this, you can do anything and regain your lost power. Every man was given an Indian neck pouch along with an animal name that best described each man's character. They were called by this animal name from this point on.
Several times over the weekend, the men formed a circle and ritual invocations were repeated out loud welcoming the energy of the East, South, West, North, and Mother Earth. The purpose of the invocation, as defined in the Facilitators Guide Protocol Manual (The New Warrior Initiation Adventure), is to extend a ritual invitation for ancestral, archetypal energies to join with and strengthen the container (the man making the invocation). This ritual's purpose is to bring men to a place where they can do "inner" work. To affectively do inner work requires a departure from the normal limits of our rational minds. To accomplish this, the participants invite the energies of those who passed on, their ancestors, their fathers, and grandfathers. They call on the energies of the masculine archetypes, the Lover, the Warrior, the Magician, and the King to ground them in the sacred masculine. They call on the seven energies represented by the seven directions of the medicine wheel. This is derived from the tradition of Native American Indians, which is believed to renew our experience with the ancient wisdom of the relatedness of all beings, the unity of all things.8
Test All Things
It is plain to see that this is not a movement a Christian man should be involved in. Mankind Project does not present itself as Christian, but it does insist that men from all faiths can benefit from the training. The whole premise is based on man regaining his power that was lost and finding his masculinity. Some men, after being involved with MKP for some time, understandably developed an attitude against their mothers and wives. They blamed them for being the cause of not reaching their full potential as men.
In Scripture, we are told "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (John 8:31, 32) For the believer, this should be our heart's desire to abide and focus on Jesus not focusing on ourselves. We should not dwell on the things of our past but look to Christ. Paul says in relation to himself, "Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead." (Phil. 3:13, 14) Also Hebrews 12:1,2: "Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God."9
Mark Roggeman has been involved in outreach to those affected by cults and other highdemand groups for a period of 30 years. He has assisted with exit-counseling individuals trapped in cults and provides support for the families with loved ones who are involved in cults. He has served as a police officer in Denver, Colorado for the past 34 years and assists other law-enforcement agencies with information and training on cults.
Mark is currently a part-time missionary with Haven Ministry located in the Denver Area. He has a degree in Criminal Justice and has attended Calvary Chapel Bible College.
Endnotes 1 Anonymous. 2 Klegman, Hal. "An Introduction to the Founding of the New Warrior Training Adventure," Mankind Project Indiana Newsletter, January 2002. 3 Vahle, Neal. "Alexander Everett and Complete Centering," New Realities Magazine, May/June 1987. 4 Church, Gene. The Pit: A Group Encounter Defiled, (Outerbridge & Lazard; distributed by Dutton; 1972). 5 http://www.lifespringinc.com/ (http://www.lifespringinc.com/) 6 From an article on the web. "Mind Dynamics - Alexander Everett," http://perso.wanadoo.fr/eldon.braun/awareness/mind.htm (http://perso.wanadoo.fr/eldon.braun/awareness/mind.htm) 7Facilitators Guide Protocol Manual (The New Warrior Initiation Adventure) p.29. 8 Pedigo, Mark. MPK-Colorado-I-Group 8 Week Protocol Facilitators Guide Protocol Manual (The New Warrior Initiation Adventure), 1998. 9Holy Bible, New King James Version (Nashville, Tennessee: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1983, 1988, 1997).[/quote]
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Jesus H Christ on February 12, 2008, 03:46:33 PM
Hanging with a bunch of guys that are influenced by the the wittings of Robert Bly should be a giant red flag. I have nothing against gay men, poets or poets that are gay men. I just hate bad poets. IF the bad poets are fat and gay that just ices it completely. Walt Whitman was fat and gay and ugly, but a good poet.
O me! O life! of the questions of these recurring, Of the endless trains of the faithless, of cities fill'd with the foolish, Of myself forever reproaching myself, (for who more foolish than I, and who more faithless?) Of eyes that vainly crave the light, of the objects mean, of the struggle ever renew'd, Of the poor results of all, of the plodding and sordid crowds I see around me, Of the empty and useless years of the rest, with the rest me intertwined, The question, O me! so sad, recurring--What good amid these, O me, O life?
Answer. That you are here--that life exists and identity, That the powerful play goes on, and you may contribute a verse.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Ursus on February 13, 2008, 05:19:44 PM
One of the problems for me is that -- for all intents and purposes -- they are conducting therapy without a license, and certainly without training or professional constraints and accountabilities. Come to think of it, that is exactly what Hyde does as well.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Jesus H Christ on February 13, 2008, 09:28:32 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
One of the problems for me is that -- for all intents and purposes -- they are conducting therapy without a license, and certainly without training or professional constraints and accountabilities. Come to think of it, that is exactly what Hyde does as well.
Well that just goes to show you that the apple does not fall far from the tree.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Anonymous on February 17, 2008, 07:18:09 PM
"Principles of Our Order 1.) I create my own perception of reality. 2.) My outer reality exists as a reflection of my inner world."
You can use that rationalization to sell pretty much anything you want!!
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Ursus on February 21, 2008, 12:07:29 PM
Quote from: "Jesus H Christ"
Quote from: "Ursus"
One of the problems for me is that -- for all intents and purposes -- they are conducting therapy without a license, and certainly without training or professional constraints and accountabilities. Come to think of it, that is exactly what Hyde does as well.
Well that just goes to show you that the apple does not fall far from the tree.
This is a tree that tends to bear rotten fruit. IMHO, Hyde is a cult, encourages cult-mindsets, and attracts people who are into cults.
I'm not saying that everyone who ends up there is of that ilk; lots of parents and kids get duped by the moral-laden rhetoric. But... generally speaking, in order to do well there, you do tend to drink the koolaid.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Ursus on February 21, 2008, 12:11:46 PM
Quote from: "Guest"
"Principles of Our Order 1.) I create my own perception of reality. 2.) My outer reality exists as a reflection of my inner world."
You can use that rationalization to sell pretty much anything you want!!
You can tell yourself -- and anyone else who cares to listen -- a million times over that that boloney sandwich is really a high-end veggie burger, but... at the end of the day, it is still a baloney sandwich.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Anonymous on March 02, 2008, 12:59:17 AM
Peter Frampton is in that DC MKP group. Don't think I'll ever listen to DO YOU FEEL LIKE WE DO? quite the same again.
Must have been a dream I don't believe where I've been Come on - you wanna do it again? Do you, you feel like I do? Do you, you feel like I do?
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Anonymous on March 02, 2008, 08:53:14 AM
I guess I am just swimming in a circle.
Paul Lynde was found dead of a heart attack, naked and holding a bottle of amyl nitrate
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Ursus on March 02, 2008, 10:39:19 AM
Quote from: "Paul Lynde"
Paul Lynde was found dead of a heart attack, naked and holding a bottle of amyl nitrate
Well... at least he wasn't holding a "special stick."
Quote from: "Mark Roggeman"
They are encouraged in sessions to share about times they were shamed while growing up. These are wounds that were hidden and now need to be dealt with. At one session, a male phallic symbol was passed around signifying what it means to be a man; they were encouraged to talk about sexual experiences.
When you have the icon in your lap, it's your turn to share.
Those sessions are done whilst everyone is naked. At a certain point in the session, the men are encouraged to touch an adjacent brother between the legs if they so wish (yep!!), and reveal their feelings for their brother Warriors... lol
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Anonymous on March 02, 2008, 03:18:46 PM
Quote
they were encouraged to talk about sexual experiences.
It is like Hyde!
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Anonymous on March 02, 2008, 09:35:33 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Paul Lynde"
Paul Lynde was found dead of a heart attack, naked and holding a bottle of amyl nitrate
Well... at least he wasn't holding a "special stick."
Quote from: "Mark Roggeman"
They are encouraged in sessions to share about times they were shamed while growing up. These are wounds that were hidden and now need to be dealt with. At one session, a male phallic symbol was passed around signifying what it means to be a man; they were encouraged to talk about sexual experiences.
When you have the icon in your lap, it's your turn to share.
Those sessions are done whilst everyone is naked. At a certain point in the session, the men are encouraged to touch an adjacent brother between the legs if they so wish (yep!!), and reveal their feelings for their brother Warriors... lol
Frampton comes alive!
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Anonymous on March 03, 2008, 10:13:51 AM
If I had a boy like that I would not need poppers.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Anonymous on March 04, 2008, 12:09:44 AM
Hey I saw him in a commercial the other day, same body moves while he's playing guitar, same wah wah, could have been the same old Frampton cept he had barely any hair.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Jesus H Christ on March 04, 2008, 07:46:58 AM
Quote from: "Penis Breath"
Hey I saw him in a commercial the other day, same body moves while he's playing guitar, same wah wah, could have been the same old Frampton cept he had barely any hair.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Ursus on March 04, 2008, 10:02:18 AM
Makes ya think, along the lines of Art Is Hard (http://http://users.vianet.ca/essobee/art.mp3) by Cursive...
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Anonymous on November 20, 2008, 02:08:21 AM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Jesus H Christ"
Quote from: "Ursus"
One of the problems for me is that -- for all intents and purposes -- they are conducting therapy without a license, and certainly without training or professional constraints and accountabilities. Come to think of it, that is exactly what Hyde does as well.
Well that just goes to show you that the apple does not fall far from the tree.
This is a tree that tends to bear rotten fruit. IMHO, Hyde is a cult, encourages cult-mindsets, and attracts people who are into cults.
I'm not saying that everyone who ends up there is of that ilk; lots of parents and kids get duped by the moral-laden rhetoric. But... generally speaking, in order to do well there, you do tend to drink the koolaid.
The Kool-ade is cider from that rotten fruit.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Anonymous on March 04, 2009, 08:09:18 PM
A HAPA INVESTMENT WITH HYDE RETURNS
WE'RE CHALLENGING OUR FELLOW HAPAS!
We've been Challenged Introducing The $35,000 HAPA Challenge 2008-09 Annual Fund
» Hyde Schools is seeking $1.4 million in unrestricted giving to the 2008-09 Annual Fund. This is a $283,368 increase over last year. The Annual Fund helps support student financial aid, the Family Education program and helps keep Hyde accessible to a broad cross-section of families that benefit from our unique family-based character education program.
» Recognizing the need for increased giving from HAPA membership to meet this assertive goal, two couples—Debbie & Joe Werner (Jason Werner ‘06 Woodstock) and Jacki Hinton & Dave Boone (Aaron Hinton ’98 Bath) will match the gifts of all alumni parents who:
Increase their giving to the Annual Fund over their last gift
Give at the same level as their last gift
» All Class of 2008 HAPAs will have their gifts matched, regardless of the size of the gift. We welcome you as first-time HAPA donors.
» Alumni Parents whose decrease their gift size over their previous gift are not eligible for the match.
» The Challenge is capped at the first $35,000 in participation.
» The HAPA Challenge concludes on June 30, 2009.
To take the HAPA Challenge and make your gift online:
(((((((((((((Click Here))))))))))))
HAPA Giving and Annual Fund Quick Facts:
$1,116,632 in cash was received via the 2007-08 Annual Fund. This total represents an increase of $139,632 over 2006-07.
Hyde is in the midst of a 4-5-year effort to double the Annual Fund from $977,000 to $2 million. Alumni Parent giving will be the key to attaining this goal.
Alumni Parents contributed $163,240 in 2007-08 vs. $146,331 in 2006-07.
For more information please contact Lavoe Davis at 860-963-4720 or http://www.hapaonline.org/hapachallenge (http://www.hapaonline.org/hapachallenge)
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Anonymous on March 04, 2009, 08:55:19 PM
What a racquet! There is one born every minute.
"I only regret"
NHB
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Ursus on March 11, 2009, 10:04:02 PM
There is a new HAPA "Chairperson" this year. Lee Mortenson and Carol Kirkland are still offering their Relationship Workshops to enable HAPA members, current parents and other Hyde alumni "a way to continue the Hyde process and go deeper," but they are no longer Chairpersons. (This may very well be a rotating job, for all I know.)
Here is a somewhat recent message from the current Chairman, Dan Sullivan. Do I read that first sentence correctly?
We are still facing the challenge of how to transform HAPA into an active, meaningful organization for parents after they graduate from Hyde.[/list]
—•?|•?•0•?•|?•— —•?|•?•0•?•|?•— —•?|•?•0•?•|?•—
Notes from the HAPA Chairperson…Dan Sullivan (http://http://www.hapaonline.org/amessagefromthehapachair)
We are still facing the challenge of how to transform HAPA into an active, meaningful organization for parents after they graduate from Hyde. We recognize that different people want different things from HAPA. We made some initial efforts last year, some of which were successful, and some – not so much. Rob Buckla and Lavoe Davis are providing leadership from Hyde and we are adding new Board members to bring fresh ideas and energy to our efforts.
A small group met in Atlanta recently to redefine the long-term goals for HAPA in light of last years' experience.
Long-Term Goals:
Develop HAPA into a national organization that is volunteer-driven.
Support the boarding schools in their admissions effort. During these challenging economic times the schools need our help in recruiting students and families.
Support the boarding and charter schools in their needs in the Family Education Departments. Alumni parents bring a wealth of wisdom to this area of the family's experience.
Provide a service to HAPA membership with focus on things people don't get elsewhere.
These goals set an ambitious path for HAPA. For the remainder of the year we have identified several initiatives consistent with these goals:
Admissions/recruitment efforts: Perhaps no initiative is more important than developing new approaches to bringing students to the board schools. Rich Truluck, Executive Director of Admissions, writes, "The boarding schools admissions team is developing a territory initiative in key demographic areas. Each area has been assigned a senior staff member; this leader will be the connector for the area. We will be concentrating on creating networks in each area (including alumni, parents and HAPA members) and cultivating relationships with them. Each territory will have an event to promote Hyde Admissions to prospective families and professionals. The goal is to create a network of centers of influence that will refer families to Hyde. We need to increase our contacts within each area and will count of the HAPA community for their continued volunteer support and expertise. HAPA is key to this strategy?"
HAPA Regions: New emphasis and energy is being put into developing dynamic HAPA regions across the country.
Provide HAPA facilitators and FLCs, Family Weekends, Senior Parent Retreats, Regional Retreats and other events: HAPAs have been coming back to Hyde informally for many years to facilitate seminars. This assistance is vital given the many demands on faculty and staff. We hope to start a program in which different HAPA regions agree to facilitate a particular retreat, which has the added benefit to allowing HAPAs to spend time with people they grew close to while their students were at Hyde.
Offer distinctively Hyde social activities: We want to offer opportunities for HAPAs who want to remain involved with Hyde, but who are not interested in seminar-type programs. Look for announcements in the near future about special events for HAPAs that we feel sure many will enjoy.
Offer personal growth-oriented programs for HAPA members: These programs can include events held previously such as couples workshops, women's retreats, and outdoor activities. We are on the look-out for new ideas that will give HAPA members opportunities to continue on the journey of personal growth that began at Hyde.
Create new TAP-A-HAPA opportunities: TAP-A-HAPA is designed for alumni parents to bring their special talents back to Hyde. On a large scale, there is the Songwriters' Workshop headed by Don Cook and Michael McDonald held in Bath every year which includes students from the Bath and Woodstock campuses. Many other HAPAs have come back to campus to share special skills or knowledge. We welcome ideas from HAPAs and we will provide support as much as possible.
Bolster the staff for HAPA: The leadership at Hyde is identifying individuals who can provide dedicated time to HAPA activities. We are fortunate to have Lavoe Davis, Executive Director of Development, and Rob Buckla, Vice-President of Development and External Relations, devoting time to HAPA efforts.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Anonymous on March 12, 2009, 02:41:56 PM
Quote
Songwriters' Workshop headed by Don Cook and Michael McDonald
"What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away."
2007 . . . Dylan McDonald and his band, the Avians, opened for his father, Grammy Award winner Michael McDonald, at the Bank of America Pavilion Theater in Boston in September. Dylan appeared on stage wearing a bright yellow HYDE t-shirt in front of thousands of fans! His band performed an opening set while the big screens flashed our name (and his face) over and over again. . . .
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: dishdutyfugitive on March 21, 2009, 09:12:41 AM
URSUS
Why doeth though thou lust for the Laurie Hurd 1983 photo?
What is the deal with Hyde.
Is it really as it appears?
CEDU meets east coast prep school?
I can't imagine such a place.
Why have I never heard of it? Ever.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Ursus on March 21, 2009, 11:23:21 PM
Quote from: "dishdutyfugitive"
URSUS
Why doeth though thou lust for the Laurie Hurd 1983 photo?
What is the deal with Hyde.
Is it really as it appears?
CEDU meets east coast prep school?
I can't imagine such a place.
Why have I never heard of it? Ever.
:rofl: LOLs. Ya got the wrong hamster as far as Laurie Hurd is concerned. NOT my type... <cough cough> ...at all. Besides, the blunt dogmatism would be enough of a buzzkill right off the bat. Somebody else on the wheel saw fit to make that comment, who must have his own reasons and criteria, such as they are...
As to weird-ass so-called prep school with CEDU sprinkles on top... keep in mind that Hyde predates CEDU, though not by much. They would have both been born out of the same cultural mash, same exposure to "new ideas" given airplay by the media, same generational delving into the efficacies of "Groups Dynamics" and the goodies of the Human Potential movement that became popular obsessions in the aftermath of the Second World War... albeit on opposite coasts.
Interesting that Mel Wasserman also tried to ply his take on the trade in a more conventional school setting, as did Joe Gauld (New Hampton, Berwick Academy). Don't know offhand about Mel, but the more mainstream route didn't work so well for Joe...
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Antigen on June 19, 2010, 03:10:38 PM
Quote from: "Jesus H Christ"
sk and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
Or convert to Catholicism, take what you want, confess and be forgiven. Alternately "punch him in the throat" answers most of life's most difficult problems.
Title: Cover Story: The ManKind Project
Post by: Ursus on June 22, 2010, 12:55:49 AM
Ahh. Thanks for that bump.
I had planned to post the Michael Scinto story here, but apparently never got around to it. Scinto participated in the New Warrior Training Adventure put on by the Mankind Project, and then committed suicide not too long after. The Houston Press did a story on this, along with a cover story / blog summarizing some of the pertinent details. Here's that cover story:
-------------- • -------------- • --------------
Houston Press Blogs Cover Story: The ManKind Project (http://http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs/2007/10/cover_story_the_mankind_projec.php) By Chris Vogel, Wednesday, Oct. 3 2007 @ 2:01PM
I was first introduced to a men's group called The ManKind Project while reading through a lawsuit filed against the organization in Harris County civil court. It described a weekend retreat north of Houston where men dress in black, wear face paint, and engage in rituals and exercises called "Cock Talk," and "Little Boy's Deepest Needs."
The ManKind Project is an international nonprofit organization that claims to offer men training: how to be accountable for yourself, how to express yourself, how to learn that being a man in today's world is okay. Men pay hundreds of dollars to attend a weekend initiation retreat, during which they engage in rituals – many in the nude – and delve into men's most intimate and personal issues.
Many men who attend the weekend swear the program changed their lives for the better. But not all. The Scinto family, who filed the lawsuit, claim their son attended the retreat in 2005, came home, and two weeks later took his own life because he could not handle the psychological stresses placed upon him during the weekend.
The family began investigating and discovered an underworld of critics who feel this self-help program – where men must sign confidentiality contracts and liability waivers to attend – has the potential to do harm. Critics, including the Scinto family, claim the organization appears to practice psychology without a state license, targets vulnerable members of 12-step recovery groups, and has a poor vetting system with which to determine who is and who is not capable of dealing with the program.
With all its confidentiality agreements, The ManKind Project is shrouded in mystery and secrecy. In this week's feature, "Weekend Warriors," we chronicle the Scinto family's attempts to pull back the veil and show a side of The ManKind Project that's not seen in the organization's promotional films, two of which you can view below. -- Chris Vogel
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: DannyB II on June 22, 2010, 01:51:36 PM
Quote from: "Antigen"
Quote from: "Jesus H Christ"
sk and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
Or convert to Catholicism, take what you want, confess and be forgiven. Alternately "punch him in the throat" answers most of life's most difficult problems.
Or you can sit in the bleachers, stay angry and watch your family go by. "Get Up"
Title: Re: Cover Story: The ManKind Project
Post by: DannyB II on June 22, 2010, 02:15:52 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Ahh. Thanks for that bump.
I had planned to post the Michael Scinto story here, but apparently never got around to it. Scinto participated in the New Warrior Training Adventure put on by the Mankind Project, and then committed suicide not too long after. The Houston Press did a story on this, along with a cover story / blog summarizing some of the pertinent details. Here's that cover story:
-------------- • -------------- • --------------
Houston Press Blogs Cover Story: The ManKind Project (http://http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs/2007/10/cover_story_the_mankind_projec.php) By Chris Vogel, Wednesday, Oct. 3 2007 @ 2:01PM
I was first introduced to a men's group called The ManKind Project while reading through a lawsuit filed against the organization in Harris County civil court. It described a weekend retreat north of Houston where men dress in black, wear face paint, and engage in rituals and exercises called "Cock Talk," and "Little Boy's Deepest Needs."
The ManKind Project is an international nonprofit organization that claims to offer men training: how to be accountable for yourself, how to express yourself, how to learn that being a man in today's world is okay. Men pay hundreds of dollars to attend a weekend initiation retreat, during which they engage in rituals – many in the nude – and delve into men's most intimate and personal issues.
Many men who attend the weekend swear the program changed their lives for the better. But not all. The Scinto family, who filed the lawsuit, claim their son attended the retreat in 2005, came home, and two weeks later took his own life because he could not handle the psychological stresses placed upon him during the weekend.
The family began investigating and discovered an underworld of critics who feel this self-help program – where men must sign confidentiality contracts and liability waivers to attend – has the potential to do harm. Critics, including the Scinto family, claim the organization appears to practice psychology without a state license, targets vulnerable members of 12-step recovery groups, and has a poor vetting system with which to determine who is and who is not capable of dealing with the program.
With all its confidentiality agreements, The ManKind Project is shrouded in mystery and secrecy. In this week's feature, "Weekend Warriors," we chronicle the Scinto family's attempts to pull back the veil and show a side of The ManKind Project that's not seen in the organization's promotional films, two of which you can view below. -- Chris Vogel
All this coming from a person who will not answer the question, has he ever attended the Weekend? Oh my god someone died, we have no idea why, how or how come, we have a story from a set of parents traumatized by their sons death by suicide. Are we investigating his parents to see what kind of parents they were, was their a history of suicidal thoughts/actions, was he on medication of any kind. What was his past drug/alcohol history about ect....and so on and so on. I attend at least 30 to 40 funerals a year due to suicide, half of those, the family of the suicide victim wants to sue someone. I knew a set of parents that wanted to sue the drug dealer for selling the heroin to their daughter, which eventually killed her. The Weekend does not injure anyone intentionally, on average 15% of participants leave after the first day, they find that it is not for them.
Ursus thanks for the story.
Title: Re: Cover Story: The ManKind Project
Post by: Ursus on June 23, 2010, 01:41:34 PM
Quote from: "DannyB II"
All this coming from a person who will not answer the question, has he ever attended the Weekend? Oh my god someone died, we have no idea why, how or how come, we have a story from a set of parents traumatized by their sons death by suicide. Are we investigating his parents to see what kind of parents they were, was their a history of suicidal thoughts/actions, was he on medication of any kind. What was his past drug/alcohol history about ect....and so on and so on. I attend at least 30 to 40 funerals a year due to suicide, half of those, the family of the suicide victim wants to sue someone. I knew a set of parents that wanted to sue the drug dealer for selling the heroin to their daughter, which eventually killed her. The Weekend does not injure anyone intentionally, on average 15% of participants leave after the first day, they find that it is not for them.
Ursus thanks for the story.
I don't believe anyone is suggesting that the ManKind Project injures folk intentionally, unless you're talking about folks' critical thinking abilities. :D
Title: Comments on "Cover Story: The ManKind Project" #s 1-20
Post by: Ursus on June 24, 2010, 10:22:26 PM
I often find that comments on these types of articles, both pro and con, frequently give you considerably more insight as to the true nature of what's going with said organization...
-------------- • -------------- • --------------
Comments (http://http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs/2007/10/cover_story_the_mankind_projec.php) on the above article, "Cover Story: The ManKind Project (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&p=367580#p367580)" (By Chris Vogel; Oct. 3 2007; Houston Press); #s 1-20:
james radcliffe says:
it is very sad that this guy killed himself, no doubt about that, my condolences to the family. However, I am a warrior and MOST of the stuff written in this article is just a bunch of lies! I went through the weekend and it was the most amazing experience I have ever had. I am also a recovering addict just like scinto and it ENHANCED my recovery tenfold. what people need to recognize is the guy RELAPSED, he RELAPSED, thats why he killed himself! He ingested coke and hour before death and his blood alcohol content was astronomical! We at the mankind project didn't kill him ,drugs killed him. Will you sue the manufacturers of the alcohol he ingested as well? how about the dealer he got the coke from? THATS WHO THEY NEED TO GO AFTER! We tried to help him and love him, nothing more. Lastly, i am not sure where the press got it's info but I can assure you MOST of the crap you printed about our practices is TOTAL FABRICATION!
Posted On: Wednesday, Oct. 3 2007 @ 7:12PM[/list][/list] Greg says:
I went to this "training" in 2005. If you want to pay $650.00 to seriously screw yourself up, then I would encourage you to quickly join the Mankind Project. This is a pagan organization whose practices are similar to those of Wicca (along with other lovely rituals, processes, and ceremonies). Thus, if you would like to attend a group which worships the spirits of dead ancestors (necromancy), as well as mother earth/father sky spirits - - then again, I'm going to have to refer you to the Mankind Project. Otherwise, do yourself a huge favor and steer very clear of MKP.
Posted On: Thursday, Oct. 4 2007 @ 12:30AM[/list][/list] RichardB says:
Having been through a NWT weekend, all I can say is: stay away. Stay way away. Anyone considering attending a NWT weekend should seriously question any organization that is so cloaked in secrecy, and requires participants to basically sign away any post-weekend rights.
MOST IMPORTANT: If anyone does choose to do one of these weekends, do not - I repeat - do not carpool. Drive yourself. Tape a key to the undercarriage of your car or the tirewell. Before you go, buy a cheap pre-pay cell phone, and leave it in your car.
Above all, caveat emptor.
Posted On: Thursday, Oct. 4 2007 @ 9:18AM[/list][/list] S. Byers says:
Mankind Project would be laudible in its aims if its practices were not so dangerous and abusive. In using amateurs to practice psychotherapy upon unsuspecting and vulnerable men it is laying itself open to gross malpractice - ah - but men are required to sign an injury disclaimer before attending. But it takes about four years for a medical surgeon to become qualified; it takes seven years for a psychotherapist / psychologist to become qualified. Yet MKP thinks that it can train its staff in psychotherapy in a weekend. The appalling suicide mentioned in the above report is but one of a number that have been mentioned on the various forums. MKP is like the very worst of the now illegal hazing fraternities. I know of other men who have had to receive professional counselling for years after attending just one weekend with MKP. The secrecy surrounding its practices are necessary because no sane man would ever pay top dollars and volunteer to be subjected to the appalling abuse (sleep deprivation, physical abuse, mental abuse, spiritual abuse, food deprivation, extreme cold, removal of medications, etc.) that is meted out to unwitting participants on the New Warrior Training Weekends. Many of these weekends are held at Christian Camps, Kiwanis, etc., all of whom organisations I suspect haven't a clue as to what is really going on. The fact that Catholic priests are involved is even more unacceptable - but then the Catholic Church is not exactly squeaky clean over abuse is it? And having screwed up vulnerable men's minds MKP spits them out and then fails to suppport them when they have re-entry problems into the everyday world. And sadly MKP is a world wide organsiation which like a cancer has spread into schools and prisons. Thank you for your in-depth report. SB.
Posted On: Thursday, Oct. 4 2007 @ 9:56AM[/list][/list] gale says:
After you read the article and posts, please watch the videos. Seek out a warrior or come to the mankind project and find out for yourself. Our mission is simple...to heal men, one at a time. We are about saving lives. Men are dying every day needlessly. Not because of the work we do but because they need this work. All men need this work. Period.
Posted On: Thursday, Oct. 4 2007 @ 10:19AM[/list][/list] S Byers says:
Whilst men may need something - they do NOT need the abuse MKP throws at them. Personally I would recommend the Human Awareness Institute which bases its workshops on promoting LOVE, TOLERANCE AND RESPECT. Concepts unknown in MKP. And no-one had died after attending HAI, unlike MKP.
Posted On: Thursday, Oct. 4 2007 @ 10:47AM[/list][/list] RichardB says:
In my earlier comment, I neglected to do two things:
1) Thank the Houston Press for this expose that, from my own experience, is pretty much spot-on.
2) In case the article wasn't clear enough, there is a very VERY strong sexual component to the NWT weekend. Anyone struggling with sexual issues of any type would be strongly advised to avoid MKP at any costs.
Posted On: Thursday, Oct. 4 2007 @ 11:56AM[/list][/list] Chris says:
Stay away from MKP. I speak from experience. Fortunately some friends at church helped me see the abuse, while I was in denial. I really wanted to be accepted by these men, so I put up with the leaders' control tactics.
Definitely agree about not carpooling and having a key hidden. You are meant to feel trapped, vulnerable and a lot of peer pressure to conform.
I left the movement a couple years ago, but a good friend stayed in. His marriage is a mess, he's struggling more and more with same-sex attraction, and if anything, all the money and time he's put into MKP weekends and I (Integration) Groups is not helping.
Posted On: Thursday, Oct. 4 2007 @ 12:39PM[/list][/list] S Byers says:
From a homo-erotic point of view MKP is designed to turn men from being straight into gay. It does this by acustomising them to accept sensitive touch from other guys (including mutual fondling of dicks in the sweat lodge), and into believing that only men can provide emotional support to men, and that women are evil. The secrecy is deliberately designed to cause conflicts in marriages. Yet in trusting marriages there should be no secrets between partners, yet MKP insists that there should be. The involvement of the Catholic Church is even more surprising, but then I believe that a lot of Catholic priets are closet gays. What goes on at a typical MKP weekend can be found at
http://www.googlegroups.com (http://www.googlegroups.com) - sci.psychology.psychotherapy and then search for 'mankind project'
What is the name of the Cult leader who is getting his pockets lined with money over the Man Kind Project?
Also, what kind of physical abuse takes place?
Is a person encouraged to engage in homosexual activies, like anal sex, and oral sex, (giving and receiving)?
Please advise.
Thank you.
Posted On: Thursday, Oct. 4 2007 @ 7:27PM[/list][/list] JR Randall says:
I attended the weekend several years ago. I am no longer active in the organization. Although I agree that there is an element of psychotherapy that takes place, there is no "abuse", "Wicca rituals", "promotion of homosexuality" or connection with the Catholic Church in any way, shape or form. The organization tries to help men through an intense encounter process. It isn't for everyone but there is no malice involved. As it turns out, there are a number of licensed psychotherapists involved in the organization and it is not a group of untrained people who present the weekend. The process has its positives and negatives but there is no truth whatsoever to many of the absurd and outrageous accusations I've read in these postings.
I attended the weekend two years ago, as have a number of men from the evangelical church I attend. I am the only gay one among them, and there is no effort to change a man's sexual orientation. It is a weekend that provides the unique opportunity for men - gay and straight - to be together as men - in a carefully structured experience that helps men look deep within themselves, to get beyond the mental gymnastics we all do every day, and to find healing on an emotional / experiential level. It did more for me than therapy ever did.
I am in recovery as well. It is very sad that this man killed himself. Drugs and booze often kill, whether slowly or quickly. The parents are misguided to try to lay blame on the weekend. Their son was unstable, period.
MKP is NOT a religious weekend. There are egos involved, but then that is true ANYWHERE!
Weekends like this exist in many forms all over the place. It's a free country damnit. Ever heard of "Burning Man" in Las Vegas? Now that's a crazy event, or so I hear.
As it turns out, there are a number of licensed psychotherapists involved in the organization and it is not a group of untrained people who present the weekend. There is always a physician on the weekend, and safety is a priority. Sometimes the activities are a bit physical and, in the age of liability, it is only prudent to have waivers signed.
A lot of what is mentioned above is just patent falsehood, and likely related to individual anger and personality clashes rather than the substance of the orgainzation.
MKP Houston is a for profit chapter of MKP. While the weekends are expensive, there are also scholarships provided, as well as payment plans. Hell, therapy is $100 a session. So what is $650.
Posted On: Friday, Oct. 5 2007 @ 11:35PM[/list][/list] WOW! says:
This is a tragic story in so many ways. AA works for people who are willing to do what it takes to stay sober. The Warrior weekend works for men who are willing to do the work. If youre not then you can certainly leave I saw a few leave. Even the men who didnt leave who were still scheptical left unsatisfied as for me I was thoroughly enlightened.
My weekend was rewarding and positive. I did meet men who did not care for it and they were never threatened after leaving. The narrow roads into the ranch appeared very dangerous if anyone left by foot it would be difficult and dangerous to traverse; probably the reason for the "stay on property" clause. I remember having to park in the culvert so that cars could pass us; parking WAS NOT plentiful. If youve ever lived or been on a ranch then youre no stranger to thin dirt roads.
It was very uncomfortable to ride with a person I did not know. We showed late as well.. and we paid for it haha (inside joke for MKP). He actually wanted to leave and I told him he could leave me because I knew some of the men there and I could ride with them. After a few moments being alone he decided to stay when other men left.
Whatever Michael Scinto went through was not what was intended nor was it like anything I experienced moreover, he was not honest about his psychological condition. I was honest and thurough I was treated accordingly. All I know is the men that I went in to the training with were my brothers in AA and are now my fraternal brothers in the MKP.
I am a religious person and what I got from the training was not pagan it was purely an adventure in the traditions of how ancient men bonded positively. I am no longer an active member of Warriors but I love sharing my stories with other former members who I see often in the rooms of AA. I do not share the intimate details of my adventure with people because they can be taken seriously out of context which has obviously happened. Not only that but I enjoy the fact that I can still share the experience with my brothers in MKP.
Being in AA for so many years I have seen many people die from alcoholism and that is honestly what it sounds like Mr Scinto died of. Maybe it was the guilt of the outrageous indictment of the MKP to the sherrifs department? Unfortunately this negative incident keeps multiplying into even more negative allegations which fuel the fires of more negative reactions to a very positive mens organization.
This is a pagan organization whose practices are similar to those of Wicca (along with other lovely rituals, processes, and ceremonies). Thus, if you would like to attend a group which worships the spirits of dead ancestors (necromancy), as well as mother earth/father sky spirits
Posted at: October 4, 2007 12:30 AM
-------------------------------------------- JOEY'S COMMENT: I am not a member of MKP but have several friends who are. Contrary to what Greg claims, all of these men belong to the same church or temple that they attended prior to their involvement in MKP. None of them were "converted" to "paganism." All of them tell me that MKP does incorporate some spiritual traditions of cultures other than Judeo-Christian, e.g., Native American traditions, but that they don't see these rituals as contradicting their Christian, Jewish, or Muslim religious beliefs.
Posted On: Saturday, Oct. 6 2007 @ 9:24AM[/list][/list] Anonymous says:
RichardB says:
If anyone does choose to do one of these weekends, do not - I repeat - do not carpool. Drive yourself. Tape a key to the undercarriage of your car or the tirewell. Before you go, buy a cheap pre-pay cell phone, and leave it in your car.
Above all, caveat emptor.
Posted at: October 4, 2007 9:18 AM
-------------------------------------------- JOEY'S COMMENT: The MKP men I know all said that when men left their training weekend they either called someone to pick them up--using a phone provided by the MKP staff--or MKP staff members gave them a ride to the airport (if they came from out of town).
Mankind Project would be laudible in its aims if its practices were not so dangerous and abusive. In using amateurs to practice psychotherapy upon unsuspecting and vulnerable men it is laying itself open to gross malpractice - ah - but men are required to sign an injury disclaimer before attending. But it takes about four years for a medical surgeon to become qualified; it takes seven years for a psychotherapist / psychologist to become qualified. Yet MKP thinks that it can train its staff in psychotherapy in a weekend. The appalling suicide mentioned in the above report is but one of a number that have been mentioned on the various forums. MKP is like the very worst of the now illegal hazing fraternities. I know of other men who have had to receive professional counselling for years after attending just one weekend with MKP. The secrecy surrounding its practices are necessary because no sane man would ever pay top dollars and volunteer to be subjected to the appalling abuse (sleep deprivation, physical abuse, mental abuse, spiritual abuse, food deprivation, extreme cold, removal of medications, etc.) that is meted out to unwitting participants on the New Warrior Training Weekends. Many of these weekends are held at Christian Camps, Kiwanis, etc., all of whom organisations I suspect haven't a clue as to what is really going on. The fact that Catholic priests are involved is even more unacceptable - but then the Catholic Church is not exactly squeaky clean over abuse is it? And having screwed up vulnerable men's minds MKP spits them out and then fails to suppport them when they have re-entry problems into the everyday world. And sadly MKP is a world wide organsiation which like a cancer has spread into schools and prisons. Thank you for your in-depth report. SB.
--------------------------------------------- JOEY'S COMMENT: It's hard to comment on S. Byers melodramatic diatribe but I'll make two points: 1) It takes 4 years of college, 4 years of medical school, and 3-9 years (depending on the specialty) of residency and fellowship to become a surgeon--an example of how loose with the facts is S. Byers; 2) If he had read the entire article, S. Byers would have learned that the local Catholic archdiocese discourages priests from attending the MKP weekend--another example of S. Byers' sloppy research.
Whilst men may need something - they do NOT need the abuse MKP throws at them. Personally I would recommend the Human Awareness Institute which bases its workshops on promoting LOVE, TOLERANCE AND RESPECT. Concepts unknown in MKP. And no-one had died after attending HAI, unlike MKP.
--------------------------------------------- JOEY'S COMMENT: I have heard good things about the Human Awareness Institute. I've also heard good things about MKP, including the fact that love, tolerance, and respect are values emphasized throughout MKP. Did you know that their leaders are required to take an intensive diversity training workshop that emphasizes understanding and appreciating people with different backgrounds--race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, class, etc.? That's just one of several facts that would have been included in an unbiased article by an ethical journalist.
By the way, I would disagree with the Gale (October 4, 2007 10:19 AM) who said that all men need MKP. Although I have many friends who are members, I have chosen not to attend because I have done a lot of men's work, personal growth workshops, spiritual retreats, etc. over the years and felt that it would be repetitious for me.
Another group that I wouldn't recommend MKP to would be fundamentalists of any religion given the MKP ethos of appreciating native people's spiritual practices. In my experience most fundamentalists believe that their religion is the only "true" religion and they belittle other spiritual or religious practices.
With regard to the alleged harshness of the MKP weekend, I had to laugh when I read that. Seriously, what the guys in MKP go through on a weekend is a picnic compared to anyone who's been through boot camp.
I was a basic Army grunt and I wouldn't want to repeat boot camp (although I think it serves its purpose and is necessary). One of my MKP friends was in the Marine Corps and and another was an Army Ranger and they both also couldn't suppress a laugh at the alleged "abuse" and harsh conditions of the MKP weekend. One remarked, "if that guy thinks the MKP weekend is tough, I'd like to see him last 3 days with some of the young guys enduring Special Ops training. He'd probably be crying for his mama within the first few hours."
Okay, I admit my friend is a "man's man" kind of guy and I don't always agree with how he says things but he has a point: The MKP weekend is not physically taxing and it is not abusive at all. There is nothing like a drill sergeant screaming in your face that you are a "filthy maggot scumbag" at an MKP weekend!
--------------------------------------------- RichardB said on October 4, 2007 at 11:56 AM
... In case the article wasn't clear enough, there is a very VERY strong sexual component to the NWT weekend. Anyone struggling with sexual issues of any type would be strongly advised to avoid MKP at any costs. ---------------------------------------------
JOEY'S COMMENT: On the contrary, many of my friends have shared with me how much the MKP weekend and men's groups have *helped* them with sexual issues. One of my friends is gay and the other five are heterosexual. They all tell me that they were never encouraged to touch each other's genitals and that some men chose to keep some clothing on during the "cock talk"--no one was forced to be nude, although I frankly don't see the big deal about the nudity and talking openly about sexual issues. Sheesh! We are such a puritanical, repressed society!
--------------------------------------------- S Byers went on another fantasy-filled rant on October 4, 2007 at 5:30 PM:
From a homo-erotic point of view MKP is designed to turn men from being straight into gay. It does this by acustomising them to accept sensitive touch from other guys (including mutual fondling of dicks in the sweat lodge), and into believing that only men can provide emotional support to men, and that women are evil. The secrecy is deliberately designed to cause conflicts in marriages. Yet in trusting marriages there should be no secrets between partners, yet MKP insists that there should be. The involvement of the Catholic Church is even more surprising, but then I believe that a lot of Catholic priets are closet gays. ---------------------------------------------
Wow, this S. Byers guy (I'm assuming he's male) is a hoot! What a creative imagination.
Ironically, what Byers doesn't know--because, like the HP reporter, he looks only for information that supports his preconceived notions--is that several "ex-gay" organizations recommend MKP to help men struggling with "Same Sex Attraction" (SSA), as they call it. I don't think these SSA groups would recommend MKP to their members if they thought that MKP would encourage them to be homosexual!
MKP does not encourage its members to keep secrets from their spouses. MKP does not think women are evil, in fact they emphasize cherishing one's spouse and bringing more love and passion into one's marriage.
Finally, S. Byers' anti-Catholic prejudice is obvious in his posts. Yet another example of his one-sided approach to this issue.
Now, lest you accuse me of being biased in favor of MKP, I should note the following:
1) As I mentioned earlier I am not an MKP member; rather, I have seen the positive results of MKP membership in several of my friends;
2) I don't assume that MKP didn't make any mistakes. Perhaps their screening process was not thorough enough and they should have identified the fact that Mr. Scinto suffered from a serious mental illness and excluded him from participation. Maybe they didn't make it clear enough that he could leave and they would help him find transportation to leave. I obviously don't know the answer to these questions but they will hopefully become clear as the legal process unfolds.
3) I wonder if maybe MKP should disclose a little more about what occurs on a weekend so that, for example, guys who are sensitive about other men seeing their bodies or who believe that Native American spiritual practices are bogus "pagan" rituals will choose not to participate. Although I guess with the publication of this Houston Press article and other sources of (mis)information, a lot of the weekend activities won't be a secret anymore!
Posted On: Saturday, Oct. 6 2007 @ 10:25AM[/list][/list] Paul G says:
My heart goes out to the Scinto's--the parents of Michael Scinto who took his own life. I wish to share some of my thoughts and experiences. I went through the Mankind Project training in 2005. Prior to that, I had worked with a dozen or so therapists since the early 1970's to recover from years of abuse from a sadistic father--abuse allowed by an unstable mother. My work with MKP was an important part of healing from my past--healing which continues to this day. My experience of MKP has been nothing but positive. I felt safe during my weekend experience and indeed confronted many of my "demons" during the weekend in ways I could never have done in a therpist's office. I took many steps forward during that weekend and afterward. Certain kinds of healing cannot be achieved in a therapist's office but can more effectively be accomplished in the presence and power of a group of supportive men. It is natural for Michael Scinto's parents to want to blame someone or something else for the death of their son. Instead of, or in additon to suing MKP, I hope the parents will do the most difficult of tasks--examine themselves as parents and examine their roles in causing their son's pain, for Michael's pain began long before he ever even heard of Mankind Project. The Houston reporter should've investigate how Michael Scinto was parented. The quote at end of the article is telling, but to me in a different way: "They murdered his spirit. It was the worst kind of murder." Anyone who has studied Swiss psycho-analyst's Alice Miller's works will understand that the murder of a person's Spirit begins with the parents.
Posted On: Saturday, Oct. 6 2007 @ 10:55AM[/list][/list]
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: DannyB II on June 25, 2010, 03:06:16 AM
Ursus, wherever you get your information to satisfy your arguments is anyone's guess. I received some information the other day concerning Ursus, which was interesting and come to find out Ursus did attend a Warrior Workshop, found it to be offensive and left. It appears that the posting he has provided are of the workshop he attended, no where else has anyone heard of males fondling other males. Bravo you pervert, thanks for one more jaded post. What happened Ursus, you went looking for a boyfriend and you got your ass kicked for fondling somebody, you became confused when they said hold hands, in the circle. Listen I don't know about anyone else here but your attempts at investigation are rather amateurish and well (stupid) really. You are a clown, Ursus. Your posts are so clearly biased, why do you even write/paste them. Have you ever had a balanced thought?????? I did the weekend that is already on the record, I have had nothing more to do with the ManKind Corp. after that weekend other then to talk with other men who attended. They have follow up groups you can attend after, I chose to not attend. In twenty years I have never heard of anyone fondling another participant in circle, ever. Thank-you Ursus
Title: Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
Post by: Joel on June 25, 2010, 03:19:10 AM
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
Title: Re: Comments on "Cover Story: The ManKind Project" #s 1-20
Post by: Anne Bonney on June 25, 2010, 11:19:08 AM
RichardB says:
Having been through a NWT weekend, all I can say is: stay away. Stay way away. Anyone considering attending a NWT weekend should seriously question any organization that is so cloaked in secrecy, and
requires participants to basically sign away any post-weekend rights. :eek:
MOST IMPORTANT: If anyone does choose to do one of these weekends, do not - I repeat - do not carpool. Drive yourself. Tape a key to the undercarriage of your car or the tirewell. Before you go, buy a cheap pre-pay cell phone, and leave it in your car.
Above all, caveat emptor.
Posted On: Thursday, Oct. 4 2007 @ 9:18AM[/list][/list] S. Byers says:
Mankind Project would be laudible in its aims if its practices were not so dangerous and abusive. In using amateurs to practice psychotherapy upon unsuspecting and vulnerable men it is laying itself open to gross malpractice - ah - but men are required to sign an injury disclaimer before attending. But it takes about four years for a medical surgeon to become qualified; it takes seven years for a psychotherapist / psychologist to become qualified. Yet MKP thinks that it can train its staff in psychotherapy in a weekend. The appalling suicide mentioned in the above report is but one of a number that have been mentioned on the various forums. MKP is like the very worst of the now illegal hazing fraternities.
I know of other men who have had to receive professional counselling for years after attending just one weekend with MKP. The secrecy surrounding its practices are necessary because no sane man would ever pay top dollars and volunteer to be subjected to the appalling abuse (sleep deprivation, physical abuse, mental abuse, spiritual abuse, food deprivation, extreme cold, removal of medications, etc.) (wow....any of that sound familiar?....AB) that is meted out to unwitting participants on the New Warrior Training Weekends. Many of these weekends are held at Christian Camps, Kiwanis, etc., all of whom organisations I suspect haven't a clue as to what is really going on. The fact that Catholic priests are involved is even more unacceptable - but then the Catholic Church is not exactly squeaky clean over abuse is it? And having screwed up vulnerable men's minds MKP spits them out and then fails to suppport them when they have re-entry problems into the everyday world. And sadly MKP is a world wide organsiation which like a cancer has spread into schools and prisons. Thank you for your in-depth report. SB.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Anne Bonney on June 25, 2010, 11:29:22 AM
Quote from: "DannyB II"
I received some information the other day concerning Ursus, which was interesting and come to find out Ursus did attend a Warrior Workshop, found it to be offensive and left.
You sure do spend a lot of time trying to dig up information on posters here.
Title: Danny's defensiveness
Post by: Ursus on June 25, 2010, 01:19:00 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "DannyB II"
I received some information the other day concerning Ursus, which was interesting and come to find out Ursus did attend a Warrior Workshop, found it to be offensive and left.
You sure do spend a lot of time trying to dig up information on posters here.
Lol. Either that, or the veracity of his sooper seekret info is about on par with his claims to be 30 minutes away from ya so "let's get together and talk, you and me" (paraphrase quite sanitized), whenever he doesn't like what you're posting about! :D
My guess is that Danny didn't like me asking the following (as yet unanswered) question (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30686&start=90#p367366) regarding Danny's experience with the New Warrior Training Adventure in another thread, material in quotes being from his previous post on the subject:
Quote from: "Ursus"
Tell me, what exactly are you trying to imply by this statement, if anything:
"As a matter of fact we had a guy there who refused to get naked so he left, come to find out this guy exposed himself to young girls. Now what is up with that."[/list]
Do you think that men who do not feel comfortable getting naked with dozens of other men and doing "some down and out, in your face, I'll kick your ass, blind folded naked, active role playing manly stuff" ... are more likely to be sexual deviants? Is that pretty much the consensus these days? Jes askin', I'm curious how the "inner circle" sees this phenomenon...
Also, was this guy someone you actually met, or someone the others told you about?
Title: Re: Danny's defensiveness re. MKP and NWTA
Post by: Anne Bonney on June 25, 2010, 01:29:47 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "DannyB II"
I received some information the other day concerning Ursus, which was interesting and come to find out Ursus did attend a Warrior Workshop, found it to be offensive and left.
You sure do spend a lot of time trying to dig up information on posters here.
Lol. Either that, or the veracity of his sooper seekret info is about on par with his claims to be 30 minutes away from ya so "let's get together and talk, you and me" (paraphrase quite sanitized), whenever he doesn't like what you're posting about! :D
My guess is that Danny didn't like me asking the following (as yet unanswered) question (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30686&start=90#p367366) regarding Danny's experience with the New Warrior Training Adventure in another thread, material in quotes being from his previous post on the subject:
Quote from: "Ursus"
Tell me, what exactly are you trying to imply by this statement, if anything:
"As a matter of fact we had a guy there who refused to get naked so he left, come to find out this guy exposed himself to young girls. Now what is up with that."[/list]
Do you think that men who do not feel comfortable getting naked with dozens of other men and doing "some down and out, in your face, I'll kick your ass, blind folded naked, active role playing manly stuff" ... are more likely to be sexual deviants? Is that pretty much the consensus these days? Jes askin', I'm curious how the "inner circle" sees this phenomenon...
Also, was this guy someone you actually met, or someone the others told you about?
Title: New Warrior Training Adventure events
Post by: Ursus on June 25, 2010, 03:44:07 PM
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Ursus, wherever you get your information to satisfy your arguments is anyone's guess. I received some information the other day concerning Ursus, which was interesting and come to find out Ursus did attend a Warrior Workshop, found it to be offensive and left. It appears that the posting he has provided are of the workshop he attended, no where else has anyone heard of males fondling other males. Bravo you pervert, thanks for one more jaded post. What happened Ursus, you went looking for a boyfriend and you got your ass kicked for fondling somebody, you became confused when they said hold hands, in the circle.
I'm sure there is some leeway exercised in interpreting the NWTA training manual, whether intentional or unintentional, officially sanctioned or not. Fwiw, here's an account from a woman describing her husband's reaction to such an event; third hand account that it is, ya can interpret it as you see fit:
"They were all in the sweat lodge on Sunday," she says, "which he actually enjoyed. It was the first moment he had to relax in days after going through such a high-drama weekend where they pound you to reveal your deep, dark stuff. So, everyone was sitting Indian-style in a big circle in the lodge when the man leading the group said, 'If you wish, you may reach over and grab your brother's dick. If your brother doesn't want your hand there, he can remove it.' Well, my husband told me he just froze. And from that point on, he just wanted out."[/list]
Given those onerous confidentially agreements that everyone has to sign, how would anyone ever know how just how unique or how pervasive such an event might be? Maybe it was just that one facilitator. Maybe not.
--------------
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Listen I don't know about anyone else here but your attempts at investigation are rather amateurish and well (stupid) really. You are a clown, Ursus. Your posts are so clearly biased, why do you even write/paste them. Have you ever had a balanced thought?????? I did the weekend that is already on the record, I have had nothing more to do with the ManKind Corp. after that weekend other then to talk with other men who attended. They have follow up groups you can attend after, I chose to not attend. In twenty years I have never heard of anyone fondling another participant in circle, ever.
Well, for someone who allegedly has had nothing more to do with the Mankind Project for two decades you sure do seem to speak with some authority when it comes to how that organization is run, right down to procedural protocol in each and every chapter, and right up to present day events, eh?
Title: Re: New Warrior Training Adventure events
Post by: DannyB II on June 25, 2010, 05:28:51 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Ursus, wherever you get your information to satisfy your arguments is anyone's guess. I received some information the other day concerning Ursus, which was interesting and come to find out Ursus did attend a Warrior Workshop, found it to be offensive and left. It appears that the posting he has provided are of the workshop he attended, no where else has anyone heard of males fondling other males. Bravo you pervert, thanks for one more jaded post. What happened Ursus, you went looking for a boyfriend and you got your ass kicked for fondling somebody, you became confused when they said hold hands, in the circle.
I'm sure there is some leeway exercised in interpreting the NWTA training manual, whether intentional or unintentional, officially sanctioned or not. Fwiw, here's an account from a woman describing her husband's reaction to such an event; third hand account that it is, ya can interpret it as you see fit:
"They were all in the sweat lodge on Sunday," she says, "which he actually enjoyed. It was the first moment he had to relax in days after going through such a high-drama weekend where they pound you to reveal your deep, dark stuff. So, everyone was sitting Indian-style in a big circle in the lodge when the man leading the group said, 'If you wish, you may reach over and grab your brother's dick. If your brother doesn't want your hand there, he can remove it.' Well, my husband told me he just froze. And from that point on, he just wanted out."[/list]
Given those onerous confidentially agreements that everyone has to sign, how would anyone ever know how just how unique or how pervasive such an event might be? Maybe it was just that one facilitator. Maybe not.
--------------
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Listen I don't know about anyone else here but your attempts at investigation are rather amateurish and well (stupid) really. You are a clown, Ursus. Your posts are so clearly biased, why do you even write/paste them. Have you ever had a balanced thought?????? I did the weekend that is already on the record, I have had nothing more to do with the ManKind Corp. after that weekend other then to talk with other men who attended. They have follow up groups you can attend after, I chose to not attend. In twenty years I have never heard of anyone fondling another participant in circle, ever.
Well, for someone who allegedly has had nothing more to do with the Mankind Project for two decades you sure do seem to speak with some authority when it comes to how that organization is run, right down to procedural protocol in each and every chapter, and right up to present day events, eh?
This is true Ursus I do yet You would have to admit the same (oh that's right you claim the higher ground, when you claim nothing at all) with your assertions and facts concerning MK. Why are we arguing a benign circumstance, Ursus???????? It is tragic when anyone dies but guess what I am sure someone else will die, maybe falling down walking to the circle, some psycho will go "postal", somebody may get stung by a bee, bit by a snake, attacked by a bear ect.... I must learn not to be dragged into your narcissistic fantasies of being the great "Advocater." No one has that much authenticity/integrity. Ursus these comments concerning grabbing another mans penis is all from your workshop, so why are you inferring that I/we explain it. "You", explain why your weekend moved/shifted to a effeminate intimacy between men, where it was OK to fondle each other genitals. I have had, at least 20 guys look at this post and no one I mean no one has heard of this. What the fuck are you bringing to the table, pussy boy...... :roflmao:
Title: Re: New Warrior Training Adventure events
Post by: Anne Bonney on June 25, 2010, 06:10:40 PM
Quote from: "DannyB II"
This is true Ursus I do yet You would have to admit the same (oh that's right you claim the higher ground, when you claim nothing at all) with your assertions and facts concerning MK. Why are we arguing a benign circumstance, Ursus????????
Just a guess, but maybe he doesn't consider it to be benign. Crazy, I know.
Quote
It is tragic when anyone dies but guess what I am sure someone else will die, maybe falling down walking to the circle, some psycho will go "postal", somebody may get stung by a bee, bit by a snake, attacked by a bear ect....
Well, this death may be directly attributed to the methods that were used. What you've described above, are accidents.
Quote
Ursus these comments concerning grabbing another mans penis is all from your workshop, so why are you inferring that I/we explain it. "You", explain why your weekend moved/shifted to a effeminate intimacy between men, where it was OK to fondle each other genitals. I have had, at least 20 guys look at this post and no one I mean no one has heard of this. What the fuck are you bringing to the table, pussy boy...... :roflmao:
Oh...so your "20 guys" is somehow considered proof? Shit, anyone can make anonymous claims. What is it exactly that you're asking of Ursus?
Title: Re: New Warrior Training Adventure events
Post by: Ursus on June 25, 2010, 07:14:58 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Well, for someone who allegedly has had nothing more to do with the Mankind Project for two decades you sure do seem to speak with some authority when it comes to how that organization is run, right down to procedural protocol in each and every chapter, and right up to present day events, eh?
This is true Ursus I do yet You would have to admit the same (oh that's right you claim the higher ground, when you claim nothing at all) with your assertions and facts concerning MK. Why are we arguing a benign circumstance, Ursus????????
Just a guess, but maybe he doesn't consider it to be benign. Crazy, I know.
Yep, you reckoned rightly, Anne. I think S. Byers said it (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&start=60#p367868) pretty well in his/her comment earlier:
S. Byers says:
Mankind Project would be laudible in its aims if its practices were not so dangerous and abusive. In using amateurs to practice psychotherapy upon unsuspecting and vulnerable men it is laying itself open to gross malpractice - ah - but men are required to sign an injury disclaimer before attending. But it takes about four years for a medical surgeon to become qualified; it takes seven years for a psychotherapist / psychologist to become qualified. Yet MKP thinks that it can train its staff in psychotherapy in a weekend. The appalling suicide mentioned in the above report is but one of a number that have been mentioned on the various forums. MKP is like the very worst of the now illegal hazing fraternities. I know of other men who have had to receive professional counselling for years after attending just one weekend with MKP. The secrecy surrounding its practices are necessary because no sane man would ever pay top dollars and volunteer to be subjected to the appalling abuse (sleep deprivation, physical abuse, mental abuse, spiritual abuse, food deprivation, extreme cold, removal of medications, etc.) that is meted out to unwitting participants on the New Warrior Training Weekends. Many of these weekends are held at Christian Camps, Kiwanis, etc., all of whom organisations I suspect haven't a clue as to what is really going on. The fact that Catholic priests are involved is even more unacceptable - but then the Catholic Church is not exactly squeaky clean over abuse is it? And having screwed up vulnerable men's minds MKP spits them out and then fails to suppport them when they have re-entry problems into the everyday world. And sadly MKP is a world wide organsiation which like a cancer has spread into schools and prisons. Thank you for your in-depth report. SB.
Posted On: Thursday, Oct. 4 2007 @ 9:56AM[/list][/list][/list]
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "DannyB II"
It is tragic when anyone dies but guess what I am sure someone else will die, maybe falling down walking to the circle, some psycho will go "postal", somebody may get stung by a bee, bit by a snake, attacked by a bear ect....
Well, this death may be directly attributed to the methods that were used. What you've described above, are accidents.
Lol. Puhlease, Danny. With logic like that, who needs teh law? See S. Byers comment above.
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Ursus these comments concerning grabbing another mans penis is all from your workshop, so why are you inferring that I/we explain it. "You", explain why your weekend moved/shifted to a effeminate intimacy between men, where it was OK to fondle each other genitals. I have had, at least 20 guys look at this post and no one I mean no one has heard of this. What the fuck are you bringing to the table, pussy boy...... :roflmao:
Oh...so your "20 guys" is somehow considered proof? Shit, anyone can make anonymous claims. What is it exactly that you're asking of Ursus?
Well, Danny, it seems that you or whoever from those "20 guys" is helping you with your posts here ... failed to fully read my previous post (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&start=60#p367976). And like I said, "ya can interpret it as you see fit." Kinda curious that you're getting all bent out of shape 'bout me quoting from some article, doncha think?
Title: Re: New Warrior Training Adventure events
Post by: DannyB II on June 25, 2010, 07:26:19 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "DannyB II"
This is true Ursus I do yet You would have to admit the same (oh that's right you claim the higher ground, when you claim nothing at all) with your assertions and facts concerning MK. Why are we arguing a benign circumstance, Ursus????????
Just a guess, but maybe he doesn't consider it to be benign. Crazy, I know.
I was being fictitious.....though I can see where I did not really let anyone know this.
Quote
It is tragic when anyone dies but guess what I am sure someone else will die, maybe falling down walking to the circle, some psycho will go "postal", somebody may get stung by a bee, bit by a snake, attacked by a bear ect....
Well, this death may be directly attributed to the methods that were used. What you've described above, are accidents.
I did not see where that was abundantly clear, either Anne. As a matter of fact nothing is really clear except that we have a death.
Quote
Ursus these comments concerning grabbing another mans penis is all from your workshop, so why are you inferring that I/we explain it. "You", explain why your weekend moved/shifted to a effeminate intimacy between men, where it was OK to fondle each other genitals. I have had, at least 20 guys look at this post and no one I mean no one has heard of this. What the fuck are you bringing to the table, pussy boy...... :roflmao:
Oh...so your "20 guys" is somehow considered proof? Shit, anyone can make anonymous claims. What is it exactly that you're asking of Ursus?
Anne, my comments above clarify what I am asking Ursus.
Title: Re: New Warrior Training Adventure events
Post by: DannyB II on June 25, 2010, 07:45:02 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Well, for someone who allegedly has had nothing more to do with the Mankind Project for two decades you sure do seem to speak with some authority when it comes to how that organization is run, right down to procedural protocol in each and every chapter, and right up to present day events, eh?
This is true Ursus I do yet You would have to admit the same (oh that's right you claim the higher ground, when you claim nothing at all) with your assertions and facts concerning MK. Why are we arguing a benign circumstance, Ursus????????
Just a guess, but maybe he doesn't consider it to be benign. Crazy, I know.
Yep, you reckoned rightly, Anne. I think S. Byers said it (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&start=60#p367868) pretty well in his/her comment earlier:
S. Byers says:
Mankind Project would be laudible in its aims if its practices were not so dangerous and abusive. In using amateurs to practice psychotherapy upon unsuspecting and vulnerable men it is laying itself open to gross malpractice - ah - but men are required to sign an injury disclaimer before attending. But it takes about four years for a medical surgeon to become qualified; it takes seven years for a psychotherapist / psychologist to become qualified. Yet MKP thinks that it can train its staff in psychotherapy in a weekend. The appalling suicide mentioned in the above report is but one of a number that have been mentioned on the various forums. MKP is like the very worst of the now illegal hazing fraternities. I know of other men who have had to receive professional counselling for years after attending just one weekend with MKP. The secrecy surrounding its practices are necessary because no sane man would ever pay top dollars and volunteer to be subjected to the appalling abuse (sleep deprivation, physical abuse, mental abuse, spiritual abuse, food deprivation, extreme cold, removal of medications, etc.) that is meted out to unwitting participants on the New Warrior Training Weekends. Many of these weekends are held at Christian Camps, Kiwanis, etc., all of whom organisations I suspect haven't a clue as to what is really going on. The fact that Catholic priests are involved is even more unacceptable - but then the Catholic Church is not exactly squeaky clean over abuse is it? And having screwed up vulnerable men's minds MKP spits them out and then fails to suppport them when they have re-entry problems into the everyday world. And sadly MKP is a world wide organsiation which like a cancer has spread into schools and prisons. Thank you for your in-depth report. SB.
Posted On: Thursday, Oct. 4 2007 @ 9:56AM[/list][/list][/list]
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "DannyB II"
It is tragic when anyone dies but guess what I am sure someone else will die, maybe falling down walking to the circle, some psycho will go "postal", somebody may get stung by a bee, bit by a snake, attacked by a bear ect....
Well, this death may be directly attributed to the methods that were used. What you've described above, are accidents.
Lol. Puhlease, Danny. With logic like that, who needs teh law? See S. Byers comment above.
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Ursus these comments concerning grabbing another mans penis is all from your workshop, so why are you inferring that I/we explain it. "You", explain why your weekend moved/shifted to a effeminate intimacy between men, where it was OK to fondle each other genitals. I have had, at least 20 guys look at this post and no one I mean no one has heard of this. What the fuck are you bringing to the table, pussy boy...... :roflmao:
Oh...so your "20 guys" is somehow considered proof? Shit, anyone can make anonymous claims. What is it exactly that you're asking of Ursus?
Well, Danny, it seems that you or whoever from those "20 guys" is helping you with your posts here ... failed to fully read my previous post (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&start=60#p367976). And like I said, "ya can interpret it as you see fit." Kinda curious that you're getting all bent out of shape 'bout me quoting from some article, doncha think?
Ursus, we all read your posts and realized that you really are, out there. Like I said this post is so benign I really don't care anymore. When you have something worth reading, I'll comment.
Title:
Post by: Paul St. John on June 25, 2010, 10:43:19 PM
I can see it now-
Danny and 19 other naked guys sitting 'round reading Ursus's post, going , " What a pussy Boy!"
LOL!
Title: Comments on "Cover Story: The ManKind Project," #s 21-40
Post by: Ursus on June 25, 2010, 11:44:57 PM
Some more comments follow below...
-------------- • -------------- • --------------
Comments (http://http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs/2007/10/cover_story_the_mankind_projec.php) on the above article, "Cover Story: The ManKind Project (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&p=367580#p367580)" (By Chris Vogel; Oct. 3 2007; Houston Press); #s 21-40:
Long Time Warrior says:
I have been involved with The New Warrior Training Adventure for over 15 years and can state that the majority of what this article has stated is an outright lie or a total fantasy.
I did my Weekend in early 90's and was in recovery and this was the best think that had happened to me. I found I could trust men better and it allowed to get closer to my father. For me this was a very powerful weekend.
The weekend that Mike experienced was not the weekend that I have been part of, at no time is some one forced to do anything they dont wanna do, at no time is the person every threatened, if someone wants to leave they can but they are encouraged to stay and do the weekend since that is why they have choosen to come to the weekend.
The weekend is not for the faint of heart or the weak. The weekend demands alot both physically and mentally from the men doing the weekend.
I feel sorry for the men that have gotten the wrong idea about MKP and all the great work it has done.
I am pround to be part of this great organization and feel that what happened is very tragic but in no way is MKP responsible for this young mans death.
He had done COKE within an hour of his death, this young man for what ever reason took his own life and that is tragic cause at no time did he reach out for help and he really needed to reach out those that could have helped him. I feel very sorry for the families lose but I feel they are going after the wrong organization.
Posted On: Saturday, Oct. 6 2007 @ 9:43PM[/list][/list] ABC says:
I have been in many MKP sweats. There is no "mutual fondling of dicks."
There is no saying "that women are evil."
There is no intent to "cause conflicts in marriages."
My heart goes out the Scinto family at their terrible loss.. Having said that, MKP's New Warrior Training Adventure has been one of the most positive influences in my life... I have changed my life dramatically since my weekend. This article is filled with lies, half truths, and completely distorted statements of 'fact'. MKP turns a 'straight man gay'???? GET A LIFE!!! This is so far from the truth that I could vomit.... What an ignorant statement...! Unless you have actually done the weekend, your comments don't mean anything.... better off zipping your lips...
Posted On: Monday, Oct. 8 2007 @ 11:29AM[/list][/list] Greg says:
Joey's Comment said it all...
"...MKP
does incorporate some spiritual traditions of cultures other than Judeo-Christian."
Stay far away from this group! I especially want to warn you Christians!
You people involved in this cult have been deceived. There are reasons that you do not recognize this deception; one being the moment you put on that blindfold and walked around naked outside with other men. You believe that you have been "enlightened," but you are far from the light.
There is a light that's involved in this group, but it is not Judeo-Christian.
Greg, Both you and Joey pathetic.... MKP is NOT a religion; a man is free to walk ANY path that he chooses, with NO interference from MKP... it is about living in integrity and being accountable.... And more importantly, MKP is NOT a cult... If either of you two think a weekend, actually less than 48 hours, can make a straight man gay, or brainwashed a man... you two dudes need to get a grip on reality... You two are the blind leading the blind.... GET A LIFE!!
Posted On: Tuesday, Oct. 9 2007 @ 6:05AM[/list][/list] ABC says:
Fact is, those who are uncomfortable with certain things can choose not to participate in those--without consequences. Christians speak of their faith, and voice their prayers, and are greeted with respect by others.
Posted On: Tuesday, Oct. 9 2007 @ 9:00AM[/list][/list] Rich M says:
I have been reading these posts with a mix of sadness, fear and astonishment. Some of the responses and the original article lack connection with research, facts or reality. It appears the Houston Posts' author took a position based on one person's experience, some distorted views, blatant mistruths and parlayed them into a condemnation of an organization cloaked in an unfortunate suicide to avoid any valid journalistic responsibility to report the other side in a fair and balanced view. The ensuing firestorm of paranoia reminds me of what happened with "War of the Worlds" in 1938. I would expect this reporter has a bright future with the tabloid publications that are known for factual and accurate reporting.
Having experienced the "paranoia" of booze induced cocaine addiction, I can identify with the type of mental state a man is in to write a letter as Michael did, and ultimately ending his own life. I have been there before. To state that the cause was from his MKP weekend is pretty weak. Why not AA?, Church?, or any number of other failed attempts of help. The events leading up to this suicide more than likely had been in the works for a lot longer than this article would lead us to believe.
In defense of Chris Vogel, his first exposure to MKP mainly seems to have come from the MS' (perhaps drug-paranoid) letter to the sheriff and the plaintiff's lawsuit, perhaps nudged that way by the plaintiff's lawyer, who hopes that publicity will increase his chances of a settlement in a case where he is likely to lose and so not get paid. Mr. Vogel did contact a variety of men and post a few pro-MKP videos in the space above, so I don't think it is entirely fair to portray him as partisan. He was introduced to the subject by clearly self-interested partisans, and presumably did the best he could within the constraints he found himself, and on a deadline to boot.
Posted On: Wednesday, Oct. 10 2007 @ 3:51PM[/list][/list] "Bob" says:
"Bob" here. I am one of men Mr.Chris Vogel contacted. I gave him permission to share my experience with MKP and my recovery program.
Years ago my wife "Cathy" and I thought we had made friends with another couple in recovery. We all spent time together. Good times and bad. That all went away when I started to express my concerns about that Warrior Weekend. Yes I got information off the internet. But who doesn't these days ? I also got back-up information from human sources.
I was told I wasn't ready for the Weekend. It wasn't for me. But I was also told that I had wounds and Shadow Work to do. A lot to do by their count. I was angry but two people I love dearly, my wife and my recovery sponsor made comments to me that snapped me right out of my self-centeredness and help put me back on track with my program. From my wife one day:
"Why are you angry ? You're still alive and sober."
From my sponsor: "Tradition number 10" It reads " Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside matters; hence the A.A. name ought never be drawn into public controversy"
Our middle son has come back in to his recovery program. Today, he is alive and sober. I can't imagine a child of mine killing themself regardless of the reasons. Our hearts and prayers go out to Michael's family.
I am a retired orthopedic surgeon. I did my weekend in 1997. I staffed 23 weekends, some as far away as New Zealand. We pay money to staff the weekends. I was the doctor on at least 5 weeekends. The leaders are extremely well-trained. There are many Psychologists, Psychiatrists, social workers, etc on staff on these weekends usually. I have driven men home from 2 weekends, and arranged a ride home with a friend for several more. Anyone may leave at any time, and any man may decide not to participate in any particular process. It is forbidden to have any sexual contact with another man. Multiculturalism is stressed, and that means teaching understanding and tolerance of all differences of men, including different sexual preferences. Nudity is used very sparingly, and clothing is optional. It is non-sectarian, and has no reference to any God, altough it does stress spirituality. It is not a cult. It bases itself heavily on Native American spituality, and on Jungian principles.
A young man chose to take his own life after doing this particular weekend. He used Cocaine and alcohol, and anyone familiar with addictions, would know that mixing drugs is dangerous, and there frequently is a rapid high, and very deep low. This was a high risk individual. The parents are obviously upset, and it natural to look for a reason why their "high risk" son would take his own life. My heart goes out to these parents, who have lost their son.
The media has made a circus out of this story. It looks like a lot of puritanical people are having a lot of fun with something very wholesome, and life-changing.
The saddest thing that I can see from all this, is that men that would really benefit from this type of personal growth, may not come to a Mankind Project weekend. How many deaths will result from that?
Are you really asking how many men will die if they don't go through the Weekend ?
Mister, you just told everyone more about yourself than you realize.
P.F.
Posted On: Wednesday, Oct. 10 2007 @ 10:29PM[/list][/list] NewbieNW says:
Having just completed the weekend, I must say this is awkward. The article is dated just a few days before my weekend began. I have mental health issues, and see a therapist regularly. I considered this weekend long and hard before I took it. There were parts of the weekend it that seemed "harsh" to me, but they were not dangerous or in anyway intended to harm. I opted out of one thing that made me very uncomfortable, and was treated with respect for having done so. The weekend, though I wouldn't say it changed my life, was definitely worth the experience. At NO TIME was sexual behavior allowed, encouraged or tolerated. And at no time was anyone trying to recruit persons to become homosexual. I talked with my therapist before I took this training; I talked with my partner; and I looked deeply whether I was willing to participate in something that was a "complete" mystery. I take full responsibility for my participation, for what I did or didn't get out of the weekend, and whether or not I remain active within the MKP organization. I suspect the persons involved are conservative socially, if not religiously, and this is some way to put the blame on anyone other than the sad, tragic young man and his equally distressed, saddened family. The one thing I went in the weekend with and came way from it with even more strongly: I must take resposibility for my actions and do what I can to deal with the consequences of those actions. My prayers are with Michael, with his family and friends, but also with all the MKP members whose lives were changed for the better.
Posted On: Thursday, Oct. 11 2007 @ 3:09AM[/list][/list] NewbieNW says:
Point of clarification:
In my post I state:
I suspect the persons involved are conservative socially, if not religiously, and this is some way to put the blame on anyone other than the sad, tragic young man and his equally distressed, saddened family.
It should have read:
I suspected the persons involved in the lawsuit are conservative socially, etc. etc.
Just want it to be clear as to who I was talking about. Didn't take the time to proof it. My apologies for any confusion.
Posted On: Thursday, Oct. 11 2007 @ 3:16AM[/list][/list] Jerry says:
Perspective, the thing often lacking in popular journalism. I believe the suicide rate of MKP is drastically lower than most ivy league universities. In my judgment, the benefit from this program has a more positive impact on the mental health and emotional well being of the graduates and their families than many ivy league educations. (I am a graduate of both.) I have also staffed several of these weekends.
It would have been interesting if you had interviewed some of the wives and girlfriends of these men. I have personally heard testimonials of women who are very grateful for the personal growth, presence, and ability to be a more mature and loving man and understand and appreciate the positive longterm impact on their marriage and the emotional well being of their entire family. The weekend is educational training, not therapy. Just like any college course, personal improvement course, or any other education, many benefit, some get little out of it. The difference is the attitude of the participant.
My sadness is that the one graduate that uses his college degree to make letter bombs gets ten times the press coverage than the 2 dozen Nobel prize winners.
I am glad that this sensationalism has raised awareness of men (and their loved ones) that there is a real and powerful source of training and interpersonal wisdom available to them. MKP is changing the world in a very postive direction... one man at a time.
Posted On: Thursday, Oct. 11 2007 @ 3:13PM[/list][/list] Normal Guy says:
My prayers go out for Michael --- It would be unfortunate if such a fine group as MKP Houston was damaged for the greed of some. I did my weekend in '99 and there was never any sexual misconduct of any sort, no touching cocks or recruiting for homosexual lifestyle. I believe that there was a lot of fabrication on the part of the author of this article.
Posted On: Thursday, Oct. 11 2007 @ 3:14PM[/list][/list] Rick says:
Has anyone considered the following indisputable points:
1. According to the article, MKP has initiated 4,000 men since 1991. I think it is safe to assume that these are no often troubled men looking for healing. Just reviewing the comments, many men self-report having found what they were looking for. Aside from the fact that it is highly questionable to suggest that the weekend event was the cause of a relapsing drug and alcohol dependent man's decision to commit suicide, one participant's suicide as compared to the experiences of 4,000 men over a 16 year period does not suggest a problem with the weekend to me. And while Vogel suggests that the weekend constitutes therapy, what is the suicide rate among the clientele of practicing psychologists? Just because someone chooses to commit the difficult to predict act of suicide should not be an indictment on a troubled individual's therapist or the weekend event.
2. I find great irony in the fact that Vogel effectively concludes that the weekend constitutes therapy, and then he chooses to "out" participants in the weekend BY NAME. What purpose was served by outing men participating in a purportedly therapeutic weekend other than to sensationalize the article at these men's expense? The story could have been told without using anyone's name and could have been told with reference only to their professions if Vogel thought that important. If Mr. Vogel found a therapist's client book wouldn't journalistic ethics dictate that he not publish a list of client names. If one of the men Vogel chose to "out" grows despondent because of the false suggestion that he either touched some other man's penis or was similarly touched on the weekend and takes his life, is Vogel responsible for that? Does anyone doubt that the Houston Press's argument would be that the individual was troubled anyway and that the Press is not at fault. I think it was truly shameful and unprofessional to use the names of participants on the weekend. It served no purpose whatsoever. I suggest Vogel reexamine his journalistic integrity.
Posted On: Friday, Oct. 12 2007 @ 11:49AM[/list][/list] Heard It All Before says:
I worked for a small company for a boss who went nuts for the ManKind group. He constantly tried to recruit the other men and blabbed about how the group was making him a better man with more integrity--all while he was drilling his secretary behind his wife's back, who happened to work in the same office. We all agreed that the group only fed his already intolerable narcissism.
Posted On: Thursday, Oct. 25 2007 @ 1:13PM[/list][/list] James Reed says:
I can see how the MKP would seem odd , strange, and maybe even cultish to people. Thats what I tought before, when I first heard about it. Society in many casses has had good reason to fear and question gatherings of men. But I promise, there's is nothing to fear about MKP. I've been a part of New Warrior since '93 and believe it's a huge benefit for our society to have men (especially men in positions of power)knowing themselves and being in the healing process. I'm a school teacher and a father of two. What I've learned from my work with MKP is invaluable and huge part of who I am. What I got from my weekend I didn't get from my home growing up, from my church nor my community as a whole. People talk about abuse...what abuse? Giving men opportinities to begin to heal past pain? Getting men together to hear the truth about eachother? Whats wrong with that? Like other groups, MKP is not perfect. They've made mistakes. But mikstakes don't invalidate or make a person, group or institution bad. I'm a Roman Catholic. God knows it is not perfect and needs lots of cleaning up. I think it gets down to the huge mistrust society has of men getting together to heal themselves. Groups like this are a godsend and are positives forces for the community. Instead of trying to cut it down, people should get better informed before they trash something they don't know.
Posted On: Friday, Oct. 26 2007 @ 12:33PM[/list][/list] Barbara Bush says:
This "mankind project" is clearly Satanism and scandal of the highest order. No similar men's organization should be allowed to exist anywhere, ever. Not on the campus of Yale, not near the Bohemian Club and certainly not in Texas or near my husband or child. Why should we hear about naked men and suicide? It's not relevant. So why should I waste my beautiful mind on something like that?
Title: Comments on "Cover Story: The ManKind Project" #s 41-60
Post by: Ursus on June 26, 2010, 03:14:56 PM
Comments (http://http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs/2007/10/cover_story_the_mankind_projec.php) on the above article, "Cover Story: The ManKind Project (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&p=367580#p367580)" (By Chris Vogel; Oct. 3, 2007; Houston Press); #s 41-60:
anonymous says:
My husband attended, wasn't forthright about it from the beginning, chose not to tell me he 'had' to carpool until on his way, kept secret about what happened, lied about the group meetings afterwards, those I knew in the group began treating me differently, distancing themselves, he became attached to the bandana he wore (the blindfold) and some leather necklace that 'had' to be next to our bed, and when I saw his weekend packet, there were very young drawings of stick people reflecting his desires and problems, I found it strange. I can say we are no longer together and weren't much after that weekend, and he did receive regular emails and had to report to his group in keeping whatever commitment he promised to do. It all sounds very disturbing and appears to have disturbed a young man. Blessings to his family.
Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 15 2007 @ 12:57PM[/list][/list] Shawn says:
Although I found the article to somewhat one-sided I agree that organizations that are built around the seeking of "donations" without a track record of community philanthropy are little more than elaborate grifts. The sad part is that the men who so ardously defend such organizations abilities to make them better men are the very ones who lack substance in any other area of their lives. Religions, fraternities and cults have long reached out to those with little individual coping skills to induct or "initiate" into their folds. These individuals are the ones who need the most help, true, but are also the ones who are also least able to differentiate between healthy and unhealthy behaviors in others. The thing that sets religions and fraternities apart from cults is that religions and fraternities do not require members to affix their signatures to iron clad secrecy agreements before welcoming new members. Groups that need to bind you legally to their secrets need to do so for their own protection which should be a red flag to someone when at the same time being told that it is in their (the new members) best interests. Members who hold their brothers in such high esteem should not require more than a handshake agreement at keeping one's word or secrets. If the MKP is such a great organization then they should focus less on fundraising and legal boilerplate and more on actually helping their target group - men.
Posted On: Friday, Nov. 23 2007 @ 4:52AM[/list][/list] George says:
I have participated in MKP weekend and at that time it was very good for me and I had a very supportive mentor. Much of what some people find horrible like talking about sex and certain intense exercises on the weekend for me were positive aspects of the weekend that helped me open up to others while in my discomfort. MKP is certainly not a cult or "all bad". That said, I also believe the organization has had many major problems in the i-groups where men who were not at all qualified were facilitating deep psychological practices and doing so poorly and sometimes abusively. This has caused trauma for me and other men I met in MKP with little real guidance, which I eventually found through a professional therapist, who said some of the practices I reported were inappropriate. Some of the groups I went to were safe and supportive while others were abusive. MKP in general misuses psychology and has applied these practices and concepts outside of their original context. I was not alone in my complaints. After realizing that MKP was slow to change and monitor the abuses in the i-groups I had chosen to leave and not support the organization any more. Others I knew vowed to stay and help change it. I have also heard before I left that a different man had committed suicide while attending the i-groups, and had mentioned his suicidal feelings in an i-group. This occurred years before this incident. What is sad is that MKP as an organization has sung its own praise and yet has during the entire time I was there never acknowledged that there may also be dangers such as this and how men can help each other by referring men to clinics, professional help etc. If you go to a therapist the therapist says to you, "everything you say here is confidential except in cases where you say you will harm yourself and others." I believe in retrospect MKP has been very irresponsible and in its euphoric haze, and zeal to recruit has closed its eyes and ears and hearts to these real and glaring problems. I agree with the earlier comment, "the tragedy was in their (MKP's) denial."
Posted On: Wednesday, Dec. 12 2007 @ 5:42PM[/list][/list] Evangelical says:
I can't say anything negative about MKP, since I haven't experienced it. I have been invited by a very nice man who is becoming my friend. I cherish our friendship and have taken interest in MKP for his sake, not my own. The only fulfillment in my life that I ever needed was Jesus Christ. I have a male accountability mentor and a pastor who I can open up to. If I needed to confess anything to get healing in my life, conquer my fears, and get back to the heart of who I am, I pray to God through Jesus. Honestly, no sarcasm intended. I can see how alcoholics and drug addicts might find benefit from this, since they are seeking deliverance. Maybe this has helped them, but in the end, you will still have a void in your heart. God put it there, and it can only be filled by God through a relationship with Jesus Christ.
Being a Christian, my problem with the Weekend Warrior training is that any spiritual rituals that were created by native American Indians, would be considered idol worship, which God is clearly against. This is one of the commandments, Thou shalt worship no other Gods before me. It is also written to shun the appearance of evil. The forms of worship that I need to get my spiritual life right are clearly listed in the bible. Nude campfire discussions with wooden penis sticks and men are clearly not listed. As a matter of fact that sounds very homosexual. The men in the mankind project that I met at a introduction meeting all seemed pretty soft, and talked kind of with this gay soft tone. This is what I recall. It doesn't mean ya'll are gay. God loves all men, and wants a relationship with them. He does not tolerate any other form of spiritual rituals or encounters with ancient pagan Gods, that are designed to bring healing. He is the healer, the author and finisher of our faith, let Him fulfill that void in your heart.
In all humility and respect, Jesus loves you.
Posted On: Monday, Feb. 11 2008 @ 12:21AM[/list][/list] Steve L. says:
I am absolutely amazed at some of the comments that I have read regarding MKP. I am a practicing Christian, a man who believes deeply in the Bible and in Jesus Christ, and I have experienced the weekend first hand. I got more healing out of one weekend than 2 years of professional counseling, in fact, my counselor suggested I go. Some of the "Men" who wrote these comments either live in fear or hide behind a key pad. Men like Greg, Richard B, and S Byers I feel sorry for you guys, because in my judgment, you didn't trust the process and my guess is that you’re still hiding from life. Maybe the types where mom took your manhood and you didn't have the courage to take it back. Sound familar?
I had some serious issues from physical and emotional abuse from my father that I worked on at my weekend. I am happy to say that it gave me an opportunity to forgive him. I needed the healing that took place on that weekend to be able to become a better father to my children.
As far as the men who volunteer, in my judgment they are very qualified. You could never become leader or co-leader without putting in hundreds of hours of training.
My hat is off to the men who put their time, money and love into helping these men. From my viewpoint, God and Jesus Christ himself bless this process.
And for all you "Men" who wrote these lies slamming MKP, all I can say is, poor you.
Posted On: Sunday, Mar. 9 2008 @ 9:44PM[/list][/list] robin Bishop says:
Folks, I stand in total agreement with many here who have actually experienced ManKind. The comments in this article are not based upon anything I experienced when I went through the training 6 years ago.
A piece of advice, If you have significant repressed rage without the skills in dealing with it, don't go to Mankind. Get the counseling you need. Mankind is not meant to pull together the deeply troubled man. The way I see it, they had to find someone to blame, so all of this kids problems - a half a life of gathering those problems cannot be weighed against a weekend where the person can opt out at any time. I can only wonder if in their grieving they would not be better off in the frivelous lawsuit game they find themselves in.
Posted On: Thursday, Mar. 27 2008 @ 2:44PM[/list][/list] DonS says:
One general comment and one personal message to "Evangelical".
First to Evangelical ... My initial reaction to your post was anger. It was only a moment, but it was there nonetheless. Frankly, I pity closed-minded uneducated persons such as yourself. When it comes to the slightest understanding of Native American spirituality, it's clear you know exactly nothing, as most evangelical Christians. I was raised Christian and still carry many of its teachings, but your ignorance is glaring in the fact that Native peoples are far more "devout" than the vast majority of Christians, and to that very same God you claim possession of. The "pagan gods" you mention simply don't exist in Native spirituality and never have.
Pardon the inflammatory nature of this statement, but your attidude is PRECISELY the same perspective that brought down the Twin Towers. You're right, and everyone else is wrong and are going to Hell. This in itself is mental illness. This in itself is contrary to Christ's teachings, as it is to any spirit open to God's Will. Christ did not take prostitutes by the hand and say, "Worship ME." He said "Walk in my footsteps." You worship the Man, not the principles, not the will of the Creator of all things. The Man was a guide, not a god.
Blinded by the concept that he was the Son of God, you consider him to BE God, when He was only an offspring, just as all things in His universe are His offspring. Intolerance of other nations, creeds, creatures and Nations of Creation has left you in a dark pit of ignorance. Christ tolerated, and indeed, tried to uplift the pitiful. I suppose I'll need to tolerate and pity your ignorance to fully respect Christ's teachings.
The general comment I mentioned is that I am only just now learning and investigating the ManKind Project and find only one (serious) flaw. Well, technically a pair of flaws.
People with personal experience have generally piped in to this blog with positive, and the negative comments clearly display inherent anger ... making me believe they have a predisposition for the negative despite the generally positive reality.
My comment comes from more than 20 years of exposure (I am white) to Native American spirituality and philosophy. I caution both people within the MKP and those seeking its healing, that at NO TIME should nudity be a part of anything related to Native American practices. This is not simply a "taboo" but has a strong basis in acquiring balance. Modesty is not shame, and shame is a negative, but modesty (humility) itself can be a healer. Native American practices emphasize a spiritual path, not a physical one. Physical health is literally critical and sought, but nudity is both unnecessary and opens mental, emotional and spiritual pathways to "impure" thoughts and actions.
Never, ever participate in a nude sweat ... period. This is particularly true for mixed gender lodges, but always true in any case. Formerly nude lodges should be disassembled and burned, and preferably relocated.
Additionally, "Inipi"
[Lakota] or any other Native Purification Lodges should not take place without the consent and participation of a Native elder or spiritual person. Without that, it is simply disrespectful to Native culture and spirituality. It is, in fact, repugnant.
Haven't we shown them enough disrespect in the last 500 years? Would you Catholics let a Protestant conduct a High Mass? Would you Jews allow a Buddhist to perform a bat or bar mitzvah? Should untrained non-professionals counsel troubled, ill people?
Take a sauna or or a steam bath, but I encourage you to disassociate yourself from the ceremony if there isn't a sanctioned, educated, experienced participant to conduct it.
Neither of these points should be taken lightly.
I'll be happy to communicate with anyone on this blog. Being a true warrior is the willingness to face the enemy. Unlike some, I'm not hiding behind a screen name. Simply post your contact.
DonS
Posted On: Monday, Apr. 7 2008 @ 10:29PM[/list][/list] NYC says:
I want to add my name to the list of men who feel New Warriors is a wonderfully positive organization doing good work for men around the world. I have personally witnessed marriages (heck, even lives) turnaround for men who have participated in MKP. I am sad that there is so much controversy over an organization whose only purpose is to do good things on the planet and help men be better men - no matter what their background or religion. If society cannot embrace something like this, then there truly is little hope for mankind!
Posted On: Saturday, Apr. 26 2008 @ 11:37PM[/list][/list] BH says:
Having been through the training, I can say that it is not for everyone. I have received great benefit from the weekend and have seen others benefit as well. Some were disapointed. But I have already recommended the training to a few of my friends. I went in with the desire and willingness to face some of my issues; I think that is the key. There is a strong sexual component to the training just as there is a strong sexual component to being a man. As for "turning" people gay or straight, that idea is laughable. I was not forced to do anything during the weekend, or abused in any way. In fact I felt more respect that I had ever felt before.
Posted On: Thursday, May. 1 2008 @ 9:19AM[/list][/list] George says:
I think judging from the many posts that fully support MKP without question that the real issues in MKP will continually fall on deaf ears. Some say MKP is not for "unstable men". I have personally known a man who did not consider himself "unstable" who after years of recovery in AA and NA joined the warriors, became very grandiose, became a leader and then is found dead of a drug overdose. Or another who was "stable" and did hard emotional work in MKP, became grandiose and then destroyed all of his relationships around him and a community organization became paranoid and then completely isolated himself for years. Yes, people may have many turns in their life - but in these two cases it was like they were posessed by some inflated self destruction and the Men in MKP were the last to question it. WE ARE ALL VULNERABLE! Even if you think all your problems have been solved by MKP and you feel that you are at a peak you may also may find yourself falling of the mountain.
I have seen positive transformations in MKP. And have gained from my experiences as well. I will never deny this.
BUT I will also never deny that I have also seen many many disasters!!! I have also seen real bullying of the weak in MKP as leaders pushed them to be "real men" not considering that the trauma these men may be experiencing may have a very complicated ethical delimna to it. I have seen coersive pracitces. Group thinking, follow the dogma, don't think for yourself, financial and sexual exploitations, not to mention a constant repetition of annoying cliches and platitudes disguised as wisdom. I have seen men pushed and pushed without any understanding that grieving takes it's own time and needs to be a time of respect not a time of forcing men to grieve.
MKP has had many problems in the past athat were not faced promptly and MKP needs to face this fact. And in my judgement MOST of the problems stem from things you can find in a psychology textbook; negative transferance/counter transferance, inflated grandiosity, decompensation, group compulsive sadism where people become sadistic and do not know what posessed them because the rest of the group was doing it. Not to mention real mental illnesess men may have without knowing it.
If MKP does not face these rather basic facts I feel the organization has very little integrity nor accountability. But this would not surprize me as many in MKP have projected "sick" or "immature" or "whimps" or whatever bs onto all men who do not jive with their dogma!
I have often seen MKP as not a place where men really eat their shadow, and gain a sense of their vulnerabilities, but find as many ways as they possibly can to project their shadows onto others. When MKP men call others whimps you know that somewhere there is a real weakness in the one speaking that can only come out by diminishing another person.
Posted On: Tuesday, May. 13 2008 @ 3:37AM[/list][/list] Jason says:
I recogize that this article was written to raise awarness about the Mankind Project. My judgements are that this was written from hear say. I went through a weekend in 2005 and it has had the most amazing positive affect. More so than I could ever imagine possible. I am able to look at my feelings and figure out why I have the feelings. I grew up in a house of anger and learned that ugly rage at a young age. The Mankind Project provide a safe place for me to look at that and change how it effects me.I am supported my a comunity of men I love and trust.I also found my own mission that I can take into this world. My mission is : By being open minded and connecting to everyone in a loving way, I create a world of acceptance and joy. so I ask whats your mission?
Posted On: Sunday, May. 18 2008 @ 8:54PM[/list][/list] John says:
Read any and all of the posts found here and then use the feelings, the likes, the dislikes, the momentum you feel inside you and attend an MKP I-Group meeting to see for yourself. Make up your own mind, through your own experience(s). Whatever you read here is great stuff if it makes you question your journey...so what do you intend your life to stand for? In wherever your journey takes you, I invite you to be a warrior of mankind, not a follower, but a self-directed, goal oriented, life giving warrior brother.
Posted On: Monday, May. 19 2008 @ 12:45AM[/list][/list] DS says:
I've considered all the posts above.
I'm a 22 year old student from Australia.
Perhaps the weekend isn't for everyone. I think it comes down to what the person puts into it.
To all you critics who mock before you try, i'm doing what you should do or should have done...
I'm going to find out for myself.
I'm registered in an upcoming warrior weekend.
I'll let you know how it goes.
Posted On: Thursday, Jun. 12 2008 @ 11:06PM[/list][/list] EH says:
My (now former) boyfriend attended the NWT weekend at the beginning of May. He returned from the weekend with a presence that was palpably disturbing...just a different person, but not in a good way. Immediately following the weekend he suffered a nearly total psychic collapse and was near hospitalization. He has lost 25 lbs and concluded suddenly, last week, to dissolve our 2 1/2 year relationship. From the beginning I felt uncomfortable with this group that demands such rigorous secrecy, and after a cursory internet search on MKP I have unearthed a multitude of disturbing information. Now it all makes sense.
Let me be frank...I think this group is extremely creepy in its fanaticism and verging on cultish. The "friends" he has in the group who encouraged him to attend the indoctrination weekend, as I call it, are totally irresponsible and blind to the fact that the brand of healing the group claims to facilitate is actually ruining the life of the man I love. I have met many of the men in the group from this area whom I found to be dismissive of me, as a woman, but strangely attentive to my boyfriend's son. Sadly, my boyfriend seems to be under the advisement and weird, manipulating control of this group. I don't trust this group or its bizarre tactics of indoctrination and brainwashing. I can only hope that he will arrive at some level of clarity before it's too late.
Posted On: Friday, Jun. 20 2008 @ 8:39PM[/list][/list] anonymous says:
If you are ever approached about the MKP, do not, under any circumstance, get involved with them. A lot of former coworkers are or have been heavily involved in the MKP lifestyle. After each one came back from the brainwashing weekend, they were very different and very creepy. If you were not part of the of this "warrior" group, you were treated differently and left out of a lot of things. Certain elements of this new age crap were incorporated into the work place at my former job and it leaves the non members feeling very uneasy. Many of my old coworkers have left because of this. These "warriors" talk a lot about how great this stuff is and how it makes them a better man and leader and yet their actions certainly don't reflect that. It is very hypocritical. I am really glad this group is finally being exposed and hopefully it will prevent some people from getting screwed up by this them.
Posted On: Friday, Jun. 27 2008 @ 8:05AM[/list][/list] GA says:
MKP is full of all kinds of men with all kinds of issues. So is life. The NWTA and subsequent men's meetings are not intended to replace therapy, 12 steps groups, religious groups, or any other help that a man needs.
Some men have experienced profound trauma, physical or emotional or both in their lives. These men may or may not be addicts and may or may not be in recovery, therapy, or seeking other help. If they come to a NWTA weekend, they will have an opportunity to look as closely as they are willing at the core of their pain. That experience can be traumatic in itself.
My limited experience with MKP is that awareness of the risks of re-wounding a man is very high. Men experiencing profound shame or fear are to be helped to a point of being and feeling safe - not pushed further into shame or fear. But, I believe that the experience can be remarkably painful, and remarkably healing, in the right circumstances for the right man. And, there is a risk that the man will be further hurt. I would like to see MKP more attentive to this potential issue, though I trust that the men I know involved in such potential situations will be as safe as possible.
All men and women were conditioned by their upbringing to behave in certain ways. All men and women have had to, at some point in their lives (and maybe continously), hide repress or deny a part of themselves in order to get what they needed or wanted. Many, many boys are told in our society that its not OK to cry, that real men are tough, strong, and macho, that men run the household and women are less than. Some boys are told that they are weak, that they are worthless, that they will never amount to anything. Some boys had pretty good parenting, but still had to be on their best behavior to get the goodies. Clean your plate. Comb your hair. Brush your teeth. Stand in line. Be still. Be quiet. Say please and thank you. Be safe.
If you are taught with love to be polite, you will lovingly be polite. If your impoliteness as a boy is punished with a swat on the rear or a slap on the face, you get a very different experience.
Many, many, men are hiding, repressing, or denying some true part of themselves in order to conform to someone else's expectations. I'm not talking about compromises or agreements to make sacrifices. I'm talking about the life-draining grind of fitting in to someone else's expectations instead of living your own life.
Men who are living in this place of shadow - living as if they are someone else - can come to an NWTA and not only discover who they really are, but work on healing the wounds that have caused them to live behind a false mask. Eventually, when all the wounds are healed, a man can just be the man that he was intended to be.
A man willing to transform himself in this way will have to work hard. And, his relationships will or may be profoundly affected. If a man has been wearing his mask with his wife or girlfriend, no doubt she has been wearing her mask as well. One day he wakes up and says, I'm not wearing the mask any more and I would like you to take your's off as well. Things will change in the relationship. She may not be willing or able to handle the change. He may not be willing or able to handle the change. And, they may both transform themselves and their relationship into the wonderful relationship they had always truly wanted.
MKP is training men to take off their masks and to be real. Yes, it's dangerous and creates risk to all kinds of relationships - at work, personally, and family. And, its not easy. Men will struggle with it and do it imperfectly. At times they will be overinflated and at times they will be in their fear.
It's a question of how a man wants to live his life. Does he choose to try to live a life of self discovery and self awareness, or not. If he chooses self-discovery, MKP is one, and certainly not an exclusive one, way to work on that path.
I support all men and women seeking their truth - whether it is in MKP, therapy, spiritual programs, etc. - and seeking to be their real selves. I believe that if men and women can strip off their masks and put down their preconceptions about each other, we can all co-create a loving, peaceful world.
The issues and masks that men may bring to a training like the MKP may involve their sexuality, their religious beliefs, their shame, their self-doubt, their relationships, their parents, their vocation, their manhood, etc., etc. I believe that MKP tries to make a safe place for a man to be willing to look at whatever it is so that he can be accepted as the wonderful fantastic man that he is.
Why secrecy? I believe that men have a powerful desire to figure things out. We want to know how things work. We want explanations. That's all left brain stuff. The kind of healing I'm talking about requires accessing the left brain and accessing the right brain and the old reptilian feeling brain. If I laid out here the whole process, a man would have his left brain figure it all out before he even got there and, thereby, miss out on the process of discovery.
Christopher Columbus did not have a map when he set out and sailed west. Many men told him that he would fall off the edge of the earth or that the voyage was impossible. But, he believed that he could sail west and reach the Indies. He believed in his competence to handle whatever might happen. And he was willing to take a risk.
The 'naysayers' are the men who need the map before they even start the journey. If you come to an NWTA, I'm not going to give you a map. I'm asking you to trust that if you set out sailing west, you may think that you will arrive at the indies, but you may instead discover a new world that you had not even known was there. I'm asking you to trust yourself that whatever happens, you can handle it. I'm asking you to take a risk.
Posted On: Monday, Jun. 30 2008 @ 7:45PM[/list][/list] Greatful says:
What I think is interesting, is the focus on MKP. Through history, there have been secret organizations for men and women. At one time, Christians had to meet in secret to avoid persecution, to feel safe. The weekends are not grounded in one faith. There are men from all walks of life. No matter what, men are accepted for who they are. When I went on my weekend, I didn’t know what I wanted from the weekend. I went on the weekend on blind faith in my brother. Coming back from my weekend, I gave my wife one of the biggest hugs that I have ever given her in our marriage. My work on my weekend was one of being “Not Good Enough”, “I’m Worthless”, all the messages that I got from my older sibling. Now I realize that these were things about themselves that they projected on me. My wife was afraid that I would be brainwashed on my weekend. Guess what, she was wrong. I have my wounds, fear and anger from my past. I see them for what they are. I look at them and deal with them with the support of my Warrior Brothers. I have never been told how to think or feel by anyone in MKP. I only get out what I put into the work. My life is better for the work I do through my group. There are three generations of warriors in my family. My father went through the same weekend with me. My brother and son have gone through their weekends. All of us have gotten what we needed from our experience. My father is a good man, a man of integrity and accountability. He has found a peace that he didn’t have with driving in big city traffic. My brother is a hard working man who is trying to develop a better treatment for cancer patients. My son now has the tools to be a man of accountability and integrity. Ultimately, men can do their work on the weekend without feeling judged in the safety of a circle of supportive men.
Posted On: Friday, Jul. 11 2008 @ 10:15PM[/list][/list] Steve Patterson says:
I am a 55 year old married heterosexual man who just recently completed the New Warrior Weekend. I don't have mental illness nor am I a drug addict. I just knew I needed some support in moving to the next step in my life. I was never threatened in any way, physically, emotionally or sexually. I was just challenged to trust and do what I needed to do to move forward with my life. I gained a lot and my wife and daughter will attest to this. For those who are whining and complaining about this organization I suggest that you also whine and complain about your life in general. This is not mankind stuff but just common sense. I took responsibility for going there, I took responsibility for what I did there and I take responsibility for what I got out of it. I am a better man for having done this training. But, I wanted to be a better man before I went in. I wasn't looking for someone to heal me or make me feel good. We have become a very weak culture. We are mostly overweight, sickly and think life owes us something. Life owes us nothing. We make our way doing the best we can with whatever we have. I didn't learn responsibility from Mankind. I didn't learn integrity from Mankind. I didn't learn tolerance from Mankind but these are the things that Mankind stands for and I support any organization that is willing to take a stand for anything. I was treated with kindness, respect and above all else a caring for me as a man to go out into the world and do better for myself, my family and for my community. Would I recommend it? Not if you are a whiner and don't want to change. Not if you are a complainer and don't want to change. Not if you are doing drugs or alcohol to avoid dealing with the pains of life. I would only recommend this training for men who desire to become better men to serve better those around them. Don't do this to get better. Only do this if you want to become the best you can be. You will only get out of this what you put in.
Posted On: Saturday, Nov. 1 2008 @ 4:11PM[/list][/list] Jeremy Hilton says:
I am a proud warrior. I did my training in August of 2002. I was lost and entranced in my life before I did my N.W.T.A. I was lost in drugs and depression. The weekend challenged me and dug deep. I dug deep and I got the gifts for the rest of my life. It gave me an awareness to this day that enables me to be responsible and make different choices than the choices I may have made before. I am sorry the Scinto family had such a loss. I can tell you how powerful and intimidating the weekend was for me. I was scared of looking at myself and it took years for me to fully understand what had happened. I am now a strong, responsible, and caring person. I teach and learn from everyone I meet. I think he wasn't ready to look at himself and was brave for trying. I also think he didn't want to change or thought he couldn't. I'm sure he had lots of pain and didn't know how to deal with it. In retrospect, I beleive the Scinto family is ignorant of Warriors and just wants to point a finger. I've got one to point back.
Posted On: Monday, Nov. 10 2008 @ 1:38PM[/list][/list] Rae says:
Men in today's society feel that they have to keep everything inside to be a man. The NWTA allows for men to share with other men their life's challenges without fear of being put down, ridiculed or laughed at. It was amazing to me to hear other men express feelings and ideas that I always felt were singular and that I was the only one that felt that way. MKP and the NWTA is in no way a cult, the money requested for the weekend is only used to cover the costs incurred for rent the camp site, covering the food and other necessities. It amazes me about some of the comments I have read above, obviously those who attended and feel they way they have stated did not reach the core of what is gnawing away at their life and for that I am sorry for them as it has changed my life. I feel very good every day now, look at the world and others without judgment or fear. I feel as if blinders were taken off and I can now move ahead with what I want out of life. My wife and kids, family and coworkers have noticed a change in my life and how truthful and honest I have become.
The men attending the NWTA will only get out of it what they are willing to put into it. The so called secrecy behind it, is not to keep it a secret, but is in place to allow the men to get the full extent out of the weekend without developing any preconceived ideas and thereby ruining the experience.
I highly recommend this weekend to ALL men!!!
Posted On: Monday, Nov. 17 2008 @ 3:12PM[/list][/list]
Title: Comments on "Cover Story: The ManKind Project," #s 61-75
Post by: Ursus on June 28, 2010, 11:02:22 AM
Comments (http://http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs/2007/10/cover_story_the_mankind_projec.php) on the above article, "Cover Story: The ManKind Project (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&p=367580#p367580)" (By Chris Vogel; Oct. 3 2007; Houston Press), #s 61-75:
Rosetta says:
I am the wife, likely ex-wife of an MKP guy. I have gone to Women Within, and did so because it seemed to mean so much to my husband. The reason I am likely to be an ex-wife is partly due to MKP. I cannot have any conversation without it "being my stuff" or being told my shadow is causing me to act out and on and on. He dishes out MKP mumbo jumbo everyday, and if I do not "do my work" he says we won't work. I have done lots of work...for him...weekends, circles...and I disliked them all. I am not a cookie-cutter person, and I am happy without all this gunk. MKP makes everything work...life is sucked out of everything or if things are great it is because we are doing our work. My husband is completely emotionally dependent on his MKP brothers and constantly tries to recruit people...I find it embarrassing. I went along with it for several years, but am now ready to enjoy life and not ever have to feel so controlled as I feel now.
I guess some men get something out of MKP, but my experience shows me it is the forgotten man, the oddball, the misfit who fits in the group. They suddenly have friends when they had none before. They have people to tell them how great they are and call them on their "Stuff. But it gets old fast...move on boys...and girls in the WW groups.
One thing I'll add that I should not add is that they will accept any man...even one who has molested his daughter...oh...but that was years ago and it is all about forgiving. I find him creepy...and my husband should have not broken their trust by telling me...or I would not be able to tell you.
I cannot leave my real name or email until my marital status changes. I am risking writing anything at all. I would like to alert anyone who wants to join or who has already joined that once you become emotionally addicted to the group you will not see what is real and if you are going so you have a better life, try something with trained professionals. If you join MKP and are married, you will find that you are likely to ruin your relationship. They say you will get your balls on the weekend, but I say they will take them from you. You will think you are a stronger man, but from the outside we can all see that you have shrunk. You will be blinded by it all and will not see it while you are enmeshed.
But you will do what you want to do...so to you I say "live and learn."
Good luck!
Posted On: Friday, Feb. 13 2009 @ 3:36PM[/list][/list] aside says:
My experience with MKP lends itself to possibly damaging at worst to an interesting experience at best. MKP's NWTA and subsequent training is amateur in its Jungian therapy approach. The leaders of the weekend tend to be relatively intelligent, however usually have no professional training in counseling. There are of course exceptions to this rule. The men who join the group are typically looking for something. Most have 'failed' in there life's pursuits by their own admission. Some have success but still seek something that is missing from their spiritual walk. As a result they make it up. As does MKP, "make it up" as they go. Most religions could be accused of making it up as they go, however MKP steeps itself in a soup of various pagan, druid, and native american belief systems. Interestingly, none of the beliefs represented by the group are Christian in any shape or form. The idea of compassion enters the groups ideals, however there is no mention of the term 'sin'. The ideas of personal 'integrity' and accountability' are of great importance to the group, however the nature of the emotional work done in the group allows for abandoning of any real personal responsibility. Of these idea integrity can mean just about anything, because the group asks all members of the group to "Take care of yourself first". Thus a group member is out of integrity first with himself if he does not "take care of himself" even if he has responsibilities to others. The Jungian self indulgence is rampant. Men in their 50's are still exploring the sins of their mother and father against them. I wish that I could say this New Age group was harmless. As for me, I am taking care of myself in the comfort Christ.
Posted On: Tuesday, Mar. 17 2009 @ 1:41AM[/list][/list] awakened says:
My experience with MKP lends itself to possibly damaging at worst to an interesting experience at best. MKP's NWTA and subsequent training is amateur in its Jungian therapy approach. The leaders of the weekend tend to be relatively intelligent, however usually have no professional training in counseling. There are of course exceptions to this rule. The men who join the group are typically looking for something. Most have 'failed' in there life's pursuits by their own admission. Some have success but still seek something that is missing from their spiritual walk. As a result they make it up. As does MKP, "make it up" as they go. Most religions could be accused of making it up as they go, however MKP steeps itself in a soup of various pagan, druid, and native american belief systems. Interestingly, none of the beliefs represented by the group are Christian in any shape or form. The idea of compassion enters the groups ideals, however there is no mention of the term 'sin'. The ideas of personal 'integrity' and accountability' are of great importance to the group, however the nature of the emotional work done in the group allows for abandoning of any real personal responsibility. Of these idea integrity can mean just about anything, because the group asks all members of the group to "Take care of yourself first". Thus a group member is out of integrity first with himself if he does not "take care of himself" even if he has responsibilities to others. The Jungian self indulgence is rampant. Men in their 50's are still exploring the sins of their mother and father against them. I wish that I could say this New Age group was harmless. As for me, I am taking care of myself in the comfort Christ.
Posted On: Tuesday, Mar. 17 2009 @ 1:45AM[/list][/list] Moco says:
TO ROSETTA: I hope you will one day log back on and give an update to your story. It was very insightful.
Posted On: Sunday, Apr. 12 2009 @ 7:58PM[/list][/list] George says:
Reading through these posts what disturbs me is the all bad posts and the all good posts. Both positions seem equally untrustworthy. There are many positive things in MKP but there is much to criticize and believe real serious dangers that MKP seems on an ongoing basis not to consider. The total praise by some Men here is evidence that the critical faculties of these me are somehow seriously impaired or very much in denial or both. The completely negative reviewers seem utterly closeminded, exaggerate the facts or are simply lying. There are some very positive aspects of MKP and other aspects which I believe harm men and not help in anyway to heal. But here the 100% positive & the 100% negative reviews seem to contribute to the dung heap which obscures the real issues of abuses in MKP, or negative effects for some men. My request for all MKP men is to question and continue to question MKP. Withou real critism MKP will remain in denial. And I strongly believe their is not enough questioning with in MKP.
Posted On: Sunday, Apr. 26 2009 @ 8:25PM[/list][/list] James says:
I did the weekend in 2005 and noticed how many of my friends became "obsessed" with staffing i-Groups, weekends, etc. If I was not involved in MKP, then my friends would avoid me. I had to make a clean break for it.
Furthermore, there is a strong number of men who are recovering addicts. There is a strong correlation between those who currently attend meetings (such as AA) and participate in MKP events.
While I agree there comes a point when people must accept responsibility for their actions, there also comes a point when people must "move-on" and live their own lives, even if that means leaving MKP and rekindling with loved ones.
Posted On: Monday, Aug. 3 2009 @ 11:56PM[/list][/list] XnObserver says:
One thing that is clear to me is that from reading many of these posts, MKP New Warrior Training is not for everyone, especially those who are weak in their commitment to Christ or who fear the faiths of other men.
I am astounded by some of the outright fabrications and fear posted by some people here. On the other hand, several postings contained perspectives that appeared to have negative ramifications for those individuals that experienced the training or had a loved one go through the process. Personal growth sometimes realizes great change.
Having gone through the MKP weekend my experience and epiphanies are listed below:
1. This weekend was about tolerance and integrity.
2. My heterosexuality was not threatened nor was I expected, encouraged or motivated to participate in any homosexual thoughts or actions. I entered as a straight man and departed as a straight man confident in my masculinity and love for my partner.
3. Even though the weekend was not religious or profess any particular spiritual focus, I did experience a positive appreciation for the diversity of enlightened thought expressed by other men and their belief in a greater divinity. If anything, it strengthened my faith in Christ and the truth I know and own. Hearing about other mens' faiths reinforced my belief in Jesus, comfort and the promise to humankind.
3. I recognized through my own "aha" moments that there were emotional realities that possibly contribute to physical and mental behaviors that I may not desire. Being aware of these realities gives me the ability to control whether or not I let those emotions control my life. Fear, Hate, Joy and Sadness are power feelings that used to guide the tiller of my life.
4. The training is just a marker in time and my own emotional growth. What I do with it is mine only and not transferable to anyone else. What another participant chooses to do with the experience is up to them. The one thing that weekend will not do is destroy one's faith or truth. If anything, it might help a person articulate what he already knows about himself.
Posted On: Sunday, Aug. 23 2009 @ 3:47PM[/list][/list] John Warrior says:
I just want to add my 2 cents here--though it may not matter at this point. I too was a skeptic of MKP before going. Matter of fact, I listened to all fear mongering stories and details taken out of context and encouraged others to not go without having attended myself.
Years later, as my life was falling apart, and after much counseling, I met some MKP men on a different retreat and was so impressed with them that I had to go. I wanted and needed such caring men in my life. My life hasn't been the same since. My MKP men's group is better than my local Church for me.
All this grose exaggeration about abuse, comparisons to hazing and fraternity is much like how the Native American Indians were seen--barbaric, ungodly, dangerous, and practicing anti-god rituals because they were different and more earthy. And just like they did back in the day, this article takes parts and sacred aspects out of context to scare men away and make this out to be some strange cult. But you need to ask yourself, why is this international organization growing and has thousands and thousands upon members if its merely just shame to bring men in and abuse them or convince them they are homosexual? Now, I myself know, having been a part of Church denominations both national and international, no church is alike. You can have abuses in one particular church or even within one denomination of churchES while others are absolutely wonderful. So too, I don't doubt that would happen in MKP, the boyscouts, etc. But that doesn't mean the whole organization should be characterized in dark shades of abuse or how one group of men or even one man does things.
Anyone can call confidentiality secrecy if you want to and make that a negative term like MKP holds some kind of abusive agenda. But counselors and doctors also use confidentiality for a purpose. And its clear here in the posts that men have missed the purpose behind MKP's confidentiality and rather assume it was for the purpose of their own bad experiences.
Men: Don't walk to MKP, Run to MKP. There is nothing on this weekend you cannot opt out of doing if you are uncomfortable with it. You do not have do anything you don't want to. I came in as very fundamental to my religion but just chose to take some risk and be with people that may believe differently then me and it really challenged me and changed me and still does today. And I've totally lost my fear of being with people with different beliefs or no beliefs in a higher power and love them tremendously. And isn't that what people of faith are suppose to be about?
Give it a chance, and stop living in fear, and in the death of other men's negatives experiences. MKP is an international organization with tens of thousands of men worldwide who wouldn't be here submitting themselves to abuse. Men are waiting for you.
Posted On: Friday, Sep. 11 2009 @ 9:15PM[/list][/list] Scott Schafer says:
Glad to see that comments provide some balance to this article.
Everything has the potential for harm - playing football or seeing a doctor can be extremely harmful or even fatal. The MKP project is specifically designed for personal growth, and so it pushes men outside of their comfort zones. However, at least during the weekend I attended, the staff were very careful not to push men too far.
The secrecy of the proceedings during the weekend is presented in this article as some sort of nefarious plot, but if a man I knew was preparing to do the weekend and asked me what was going to happen in detail, I wouldn't tell him. I'd keep the "secrets" NOT out of a desire to protect the organization, but because I don't think it would benefit the man to know what was coming next. Knowing gives you a chance to form intellectual defenses, and the benefit of this weekend (in my experiences) comes from being undefended, from learning to trust other men and access parts of yourself that may be buried under shame and fear.
Posted On: Tuesday, Oct. 20 2009 @ 1:56PM[/list][/list] SeekingTruth says:
good info. - If you need more details regarding structured settlements, you read more basics like : what is a structured settlement on my blog.
Posted On: Saturday, Mar. 6 2010 @ 1:49AM[/list][/list] "Tom X" says:
Meh, I think the new warrior training weekend (that's what it's called right?) is to narcassisitic personality disorder as LSD is to schizophrenia. I was in recovery and left because my sponsor encouraged me to do this, his spnoser btw was MKP and a freemason, and so was his sponser above him. People just don't come back 'right' after this weekend from what I've gathered. It costs a bunch of money too... I would really encourage men who feel they have been abused by this program to overcome their shame and share thier stories. Cause that's another thing that seems to go on during these weekends, abuse. Is the goal of the weekend to make you vunerable or invunerable... either way is f'd up. smoke a f'ng joint. oh, and go ahead and stone me, I'm already stoned :D
Posted On: Monday, Mar. 8 2010 @ 7:33PM[/list][/list] T says:
I completely agree with "Tom X." These people are a cult who prey on individuals who are in vulnerable states - whether it is addition, "coming out" issues, whatever. It frightens me how many therapists send their clients to these sessions - especially knowing that most of the staff are not qualified and educated in psychology. It is so damn irresponsible. I did the weekend in 2005; got out for a while; jumped back in; and left for almost 2 years now! I am so much happier away from MKP and those people in Houston. Another point to consider - once you leave the cult, if you did have friendships or ties to people, you are cut off. They still call me for money, but I refuse to contribute because I do not believe in their "mission." They are a money making cult.
Posted On: Sunday, May. 23 2010 @ 7:19PM[/list][/list] anonymous says:
My husband just got back from his weekend. He says it was an entirely positive experience and seems ok, but I am desperately unhappy. He has all these secrets now, where we do not keep secrets in our marriage. He shares all this with 50 other men personally, and tens of thousands in the organization, but it's a secret from me, mother of his 2 kids, wife of 11 years.
Now we keep secrets from one another. Thanks, Mankind Project.
Posted On: Tuesday, Jun. 1 2010 @ 2:31PM[/list][/list]
Title: New Warrior Training Adventure
Post by: Ursus on June 30, 2010, 12:10:23 AM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
New Warrior Training!!!
:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
Yah. Gotta wonder just what this newage obsession with "warriors" is all about... Kinda reminds me of the 'Spiritual Warrior' weekend (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=28923) that James Arthur Ray used to put on not too long ago...
Title: Naked Men: The ManKind Project and Michael Scinto
Post by: Ursus on August 16, 2010, 01:00:07 AM
So... here then is the Michael Scinto story:
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Naked Men: The ManKind Project and Michael Scinto (http://http://www.houstonpress.com/2007-10-04/news/weekend-warriors/)
The organization was supposed to make him a better man. Instead, his parents say, it made him a dead one.
By Chris Vogel Thursday, Oct 4 2007
"The ManKind Project offers trainings which support men in developing lives of integrity, accountability and connection to feeling."
— From The ManKind Project Web site[/list][/list]
"They had three naked men bring out two chickens that they hit with a hammer."
— Michael Scinto in a letter to a Madison County sheriff's deputy.[/list][/list]
On an isolated 11-acre compound down a winding, country dirt road 110 miles north of Houston, Scinto watched as the leader of the men's group instructed him and nearly 40 other strangers in the room. Put one foot on the carpet. Make sure to keep that foot on the carpet at all times. The leader then began grilling them about who makes them mad.
"They provoked the men into a rage," wrote Scinto in a letter to the Madison County Sheriff's Office. "They were telling 1 man fuck you, you are worthless.'"
Scinto felt nauseous and told a staff member he needed to leave.
When Scinto had arrived the day before, men dressed in dark clothes, faces painted black, stripped him and his fellow initiates of their keys, wallets, cell phones and watches. Now, wanting to go home, Scinto demanded his keys and his wallet back. Not that keys would help at this point anyway. After all, he didn't have his truck with him; Scinto had been driven up Interstate 45 from Houston, through the rural town of Madisonville and over to the training compound located on the grassy ranchlands of North Zulch. All the men were carpooled because they were told there was not enough space for everyone to park.
Outside and away from the other men now, the group leader sat next to Scinto.
"He told me that if I left," wrote Scinto, "I would be causing harm to the other participants. I told him that I did not care. I told him to get my stuff so that I could leave. He said that if I left they would kill...(I was) convinced that if I ran they would catch me. At this point I feared for my life."
Scinto initially agreed to sign up and pay the $650 for The ManKind Project's New Warrior Training Adventure several weeks earlier after hearing about it from his Alcoholics Anonymous sponsor, Kim Sawyer. Like everyone else who attended, Scinto was not told what the weekend would specifically entail. He signed several confidentiality contracts and liability waivers and filled out a medical questionnaire, but was promised all activities were voluntary and he could leave at any time. Plus, of course, he trusted his sponsor. Sawyer, a business coach who counsels corporate clients on how to run more effective businesses, had been Scinto's sponsor for about eight months. Sawyer joined The ManKind Project more than a decade earlier and sold the idea to Scinto, telling him it would be the best thing he could do for himself.
"So many of the character defects that eat you [sic] lunch can be replaced by strengths and skills and understandings you'll discover from this training. It will be the best Return on Investment you ever got," Sawyer wrote to Scinto in an e-mail before the initiation.
As Scinto became increasingly distraught at the retreat, staff members fetched Sawyer, who later told police that Scinto was crying and explained that he had unearthed a traumatic childhood memory. Sawyer told Scinto that leaving would be difficult and that it would be best if he expressed his thoughts and worries openly with the group.
Scinto had to make a choice: stay and continue with the program, or try to walk away alone along the poorly marked country roads, lost and terrified someone was close behind, hunting him down.
Scinto stayed.
In a letter to the sheriff's office, he detailed some of the rituals and activities he witnessed:
• Blindfolded walking tours in the nude;
• People blowing sage smoke in his face while 50 or so naked men danced around candles;
• Men sitting naked in a circle discussing their sexual histories while passing a wooden dildo called "The Cock";
• Naked men beating cooked chickens with a hammer.
At the end of the third and final day of the retreat, the leaders and staff members herded the initiates into the main room.
"They threatened us with imprisonment," wrote Scinto. "They said that if we were married to tell the wives we loved them. They told us not to discuss any of the process that we went through. Then they let us leave."
Fifteen days later, on July 25, 2005, Scinto's father and sister found him dead, rotting in his apartment from a self-inflicted shotgun wound to the head.
His family did not understand. So they began investigating.
What they discovered was that the international men's organization with thousands of vocal loyalists claiming life-altering training also had an underworld of critics with bone-chilling tales of physical and psychological abuse.
Becky Arnett, his sister, took off from work and was able to access the group's internal Web site using her brother's password. She got a copy of the organization's local membership roster, which includes prominent doctors, lawyers and businessmen, as well as therapists and addiction specialists.
Some of the more surprising names included El Lago Mayor Brad Emel; Houston Ballet Foundation Director of Marketing and Communication Andrew Edmonson; artist Brooke Stroud of the Menil Collection; Marty Kelly of the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality; and University of Houston Chair of Anthropology Norris Lang.
Travis County District Attorney Ronnie Earle's name was also on the list. When contacted by the Press, he declined to comment.
Of course, merely being listed is no indication of what exactly anyone who went to the retreat did. For instance, one of the people who talked with the Press said he didn't engage in the nudity.
The Scintos came to believe that the group seemed to target vulnerable members of 12-step recovery groups and that its leaders appeared to practice psychology without a state license.
They were especially upset to find the names of several Roman Catholic priests on the roster and contacted the Galveston-Houston Archdiocese with this information.
Now, two years later, Scinto's parents, Kathy and Ralph, have filed a wrongful death lawsuit in Harris County against The ManKind Project Houston and Charles Kimberly Sawyer in an effort to uncover and expose once and for all what happened to their son, and why.
It almost sounds like the lead-in to an old joke: What do you get when you cross an ex-marine, a therapist and a business consultant?
Answer: The ManKind Project.
In January 1985, the three founding members of The ManKind Project, Rich Tosi, Bill Kauth and Ron Hering, took 18 men out on what was then called the "Wildman Weekend," in Haimowoods, Wisconsin. They conducted three more such weekends that year, initiating a total of 72 men.
Today, the retreats are called The New Warrior Training Adventure, and, according to the organization, more than 30,000 men across the globe have attended some 800-plus initiation weekends. The ManKind Project has 42 centers throughout the United States, Canada, England, Germany, France, South Africa, Australia and New Zealand. None, however, are as active as the one in Houston. The local center's Web site boasts it has held the greatest total number of trainings anywhere, initiating more than 4,000 men since 1991 at an average of 350 a year. The Houston center is known simply as "The Weekend Machine."
The ManKind Project describes its training as "a traditional masculine initiation, but geared toward the modern-day man." Its stated mission is "to assist men in reclaiming the sacred masculine for our time through initiation, training and action in the world."
If this all sounds a bit New Age, there's a reason. The organization sprang out of the so-called "mythopoetic men's movement" that is in part derived from the work of famed psychologist Carl Jung, who studied the psyche by exploring dreams and myths, and the poet Robert Bly, whose best-selling book Iron John: A Book About Men offers a romantic view of masculinity. The overall aim is to empower men to regain their masculinity by looking at the male situation through myths and poetry. The avowed goal is to create caring and trusting relationships between men and to help men overcome their emotional wounds.
Many who join The ManKind Project say they feel the program is the most rewarding experience of their lives.
"It was a very positive experience for me," says Edmonson. "It really helped me to move forward in several areas of my life."
"I consider it more of a way of life than a membership," says George Chambers, a fourth-grade teacher at Houston's Pine Shadows Elementary School.
Artist Brooke Stroud no longer is a member and did not participate in some of the naked rituals during the initiation, but praises the organization.
"I guess I did the fraternity thing in college and did not want to go that route again," he says, "but overall, it's a good group and was a very positive experience."
Neither Kim Sawyer nor ManKind Project Houston's executive director, Scott Cole, returned phone calls requesting comment for this story. However, Les Sinclair, spokesman for the national parent nonprofit The ManKind Project, did.
"This is the best thing on the planet," he says from his home in Las Vegas. "The initiation is a real wake-up to life. We teach men to be accountable for the choices they make or the actions they don't take. We look at the emotional wounds that have taken a man's power away...He may have low self-esteem, he may feel like he doesn't measure up to other men, he's afraid of men or he's afraid of women, or he's afraid of life in general. We look at what was that key emotional wound that took his power away and set up some form of psychodrama for him to overcome. It is a very powerful process."
The procedures and protocols employed at each of the organization's centers are carefully constructed and controlled, says Sinclair. And though each center is its own entity, filing its own nonprofit tax return, they all administer the same routine.
"The only difference between a training in France and in Houston," says Sinclair, "is that the training in France would be in French."
As for the nudity that takes place during the course of the retreat, Sinclair says, "It's getting real with our bodies and being men. It's of course nonsexual or anything like that. It's getting men to get beyond their shame of their bodies, like, there's nothing wrong with your body."
As for the chicken bashing, Sinclair says he cannot say what happened on Scinto's retreat because he wasn't there. However, he says that it might have been to "have a bit of levity. In the past they have brought out cooked chickens to sort of ritualize the feast" that the men have on Sunday to conclude the weekend.
It costs $650 to attend the initiation weekend, and then an additional $190 to attend eight weekly Integration Group meetings where men discuss how to incorporate the organization's philosophies into their everyday lives. Suggested activities to do during the Integration Group meetings include shaving another man's face, kidnapping a member of another Integration Group, and changing clothes with another man. Additionally, members can choose to pay hundreds of dollars more to work as staff members during retreats and to take advanced training courses, so they can rise within the organization's ranks and one day lead an initiation weekend. Members also pay yearly dues and are encouraged to make donations.
A 2005 tax return filed by the Houston center, also known as Men In Mission, shows the nonprofit group collected more than $242,000 in contributions and more than $300,000 in revenue, primarily derived from men paying to attend the retreat weekends.
The organization maintains its nonprofit tax status by asserting it provides educational services. However, critics say this claim is a sham. If the organization said it was doing therapy, it could jeopardize its special tax status.
"What it boils down to," says Rick Ross, head of the Rick A. Ross Institute of New Jersey, which studies cults, groups and movements, "is that they are doing group therapy, although they won't admit to that, and they are not qualified to do group therapy. They are not licensed and they are not accountable."
Norris Lang, who chairs the anthropology department at the University of Houston and is a former therapist, agrees. He took part in an initiation retreat in 1997 and then attended several Integration Group meetings before deciding to leave the organization.
"Some of the exercises that they had us engage in," he says, "were fairly traumatic and normally, as a psychotherapist, I would have only engaged in some of those activities...in the security of a hospital or psychiatric facility. If you get somebody to get in touch with their feelings from, say, 30 years ago, a time when they were abused as children, that can be fairly dangerous territory for an unprofessional. It's kind of group therapy without any professionals involved."
Sinclair insists the training is not therapy.
"It's therapeutic," he says, "in that it's healing, and we have a lot of therapists who come, but we don't do therapy. What we do have is a very powerful process that men get involved in and they start to peel away, like an onion, and break down their armor or shield to get down to their core and who they are. We confront men to wake up and to stop with the BS, to stop telling lies and tell the truth and trust one another."
Although members claim they don't do therapy, The ManKind Project has been recognized by the American Psychological Association, which bestowed an award on Christopher Burke for his 2004 dissertation that looks at the impact The ManKind Project has had on men.
Ross says The ManKind Project appears to use coercive mind-control tactics. These include limiting participants' sleep and diet, cutting them off from the outside world, forcing members to keep secrets, and using intimidation.
Critics such as Ross have additional concerns as well, including the targeting of 12-step communities and what they say is an inadequate vetting system to determine who can and cannot withstand the stresses of the program.
"What they have is one size fits all," says Ross, "and that's the problem. So, the net result is you get people with issues and troubles, and the pressures of the program can crack them and cause them to have emotional distress. And that's why they have waivers you have to sign. They don't require waivers because everything is fine; they want them because everything has not always been fine and they don't want the legal liability. The bottom line is, I wouldn't recommend MKP to anyone under any circumstances."
Several years ago, "Bob" — who does not want his real name used because he says he fears retaliation — began hearing whispers about The ManKind Project in the hallways outside his 12-step group meeting room. Men were huddled in the corner, he says, quietly discussing the program. Soon, Bob noticed more and more members of his group began attending the "Warrior" weekends.
"They don't recruit in the classic sense," says Bob. "It's more subtle. They don't push it, but they reintroduce it to you every time they talk to you and suggest that you might want to try it. Members tell you it helped them clear up things from their past and allowed them to trust other men. And that's the hook. "
After researching the program on the Internet, Bob decided it wasn't for him. But that didn't mean he was free and clear of the group.
Bob was friends with a man attending his 12-step group who he considered extremely fragile. Members of The ManKind Project began "honing in" on him, says Bob, and he warned the man not to attend, fearing he might suffer psychological damage from the stressful program. When members of The ManKind Project learned of Bob's warning, they became angry.
"They went after me in subtle ways," says Bob. "People started gossiping about me in a negative way behind my back, and it became very uncomfortable to attend my (12-step) meetings. I had to change meetings, but even that wasn't very effective because members are in all the meetings. It's scary because they know all your secrets, and physical and emotional retaliation or blackmail is possible. It's like a virus here in Houston."
There are no rules regulating what members of Alcoholics Anonymous can or cannot discuss once they are outside of the meeting room, says the public information coordinator of Alcoholics Anonymous in New York City. Furthermore, there are no written rules prohibiting a sponsor from trying to get their sponsee to join an outside organization.
However, doing so "doesn't seem to be in the spirit of AA," says the public information coordinator. "Though people have outside interests, they are usually careful not to bring them into their AA relationships. We could certainly see how people might find it problematic, though, and a new person in AA who is enthusiastically approached by someone about another organization may not know it has nothing to do with AA."
"Mary," another person who says she doesn't want her name used because she is afraid of retaliation, has watched both her husband and her son get sucked into The ManKind Project through their 12-step groups. In both cases, their sponsors pressured them to attend, she says.
"They start out with a lie," she says, "because they tell you that you have to carpool because there's not enough parking. Well, it's way out in the country and they have acres of land, so there's plenty of parking. I think they say that so it makes it much harder to leave. And then I saw the covenant that they faxed for my husband to sign saying he will never discuss anything that happens with anyone ever. And I felt, why? What's going on here that needs to be a secret?"
Les Sinclair says the secrecy is for the men's benefit.
"We ask men not to reveal the process because it would be like going to a movie where you hear what the story is about and what the ending is," he says. "We don't want anything revealed because each man's journey is different and every man should have the opportunity to have their own experience."
All weekend long while her husband was at the retreat, Mary was worried. At that point, she did not know initiates are stripped of all their possessions, including cell phones, and was expecting a call. Finally late Sunday night, her husband returned.
"He said that there were some good things," recalls Mary, "but he did not care for the intimidation, especially while you check in. He said they're screaming at you, their faces are painted black, and if you arrive five minutes early or five minutes late, they humiliate you even more."
During the weekend, men are subjected to mandatory cold showers in the morning, about four hours of sleep at night and very little food. Mary's husband did not eat Friday night. On Saturday he was fed small amounts of trail mix and fruit. "They also ate something called 'chicken broth,'" says Mary, "but it was just clear broth with nothing in it. And he only got a tiny cap's worth."
According to the 1998 protocol manual obtained by the Press, leaders are told the exact language they are to use when talking to initiates, right down to when they are supposed to pause in the middle of a sentence. When greeting a new member, the staff is told to "get in his face, hard and clear," and to "hold it for 15 to 30 seconds." Some training centers use buckets instead of toilets, which have "more therapeutic value in terms of dealing with shame." Activities include feelings exercises where the men are encouraged to growl and shove each other's shoulders. "Cock Talk" is when the men put on their "dancing clothes," meaning get naked, and pass around an erect phallus made of wood. Whoever holds the penis gets to share his sexual past or issues. The "Chicken Carving" is a ritual involving a cooked chicken. According to the 1998 protocol handbook, the ritual "has gotten distorted into a sophomoric, semi-sadistic, 'let's get 'em' sort of energy so frequently that some centers have dropped it."
At one point, says Mary, her husband and the other men were blindfolded and marched into a large room, where they were told to take off their clothes. Drums were beating in the background, and when the men were told to remove their blindfolds, "he saw 50 or 60 naked men dancing on a stage in a circle," she says. "They call this 'The Dance,' and my husband said they started playing rock and roll music and some of the men were just dancing like they were obsessed."
This moment, however, paled in comparison to how uncomfortable Mary's husband felt the following day.
"They were all in the sweat lodge on Sunday," she says, "which he actually enjoyed. It was the first moment he had to relax in days after going through such a high-drama weekend where they pound you to reveal your deep, dark stuff. So, everyone was sitting Indian-style in a big circle in the lodge when the man leading the group said, 'If you wish, you may reach over and grab your brother's dick. If your brother doesn't want your hand there, he can remove it.' Well, my husband told me he just froze. And from that point on, he just wanted out."
When asked about the incident that Mary says happened to her husband in the sweat lodge, spokesman Les Sinclair says, "That would never ever happen on a weekend. I can swear on my mother's grave that that would never happen. That's a vindictive comment and whoever told it to you has an agenda. We are very respectful of men and there's none of that sort of juvenile stuff. It would not be tolerated."
Mary says even though her husband didn't want anything further to do with the group, it wasn't that easy to get away. The following week, she says they received "umpteen phone calls asking if he'd signed up for the Integration Group meetings. He kept telling them 'No.' It's been a few years now since my husband attended the weekend, but we still get several e-mails a week, every week, asking for money, either for donations or to attend another training. It never ends."
It truly did not end for Mary, because her son's 12-step sponsor was in the process of pressuring him to attend an initiation weekend, just like the one that had so disturbed his father.
Three years ago, Mary's then-17-year-old son got involved with drugs. And like so many people, he went to rehab and entered a 12-step program.
"My son has always had severe emotional problems," Mary says, "and they just kept hammering him at AA to go do the weekend. They told him, 'You won't need meds, you won't need psychologists, you won't need anything else.'"
Less than a year ago, Mary's son attended the weekend and is honoring the confidentiality agreement down to the letter, refusing to discuss it with even his mother or father. He has completed the first eight weeks of Integration Group meetings and plans to remain an active member.
As far as Mary is concerned, her son's experience represents all that she sees is wrong with the organization: a poor vetting system and unlicensed men staffing the weekend retreat.
"Let me tell you," she says. "When you talk about unstable, you're talking about my poor son. If they had truly interviewed him and looked at the list of meds he takes, which he did include on the medical questionnaire they make you fill out, which is one of the ways they say they screen, they shouldn't have allowed him to participate. They should have looked at his medical history and said, 'This kid has a lot of problems and there is no way we can know how he is going to react to the stuff we do.' They say they screen the men, but I don't think they screen them at all. I think if they have the money, they let them come."
What's more, she says, is that they are practicing unlicensed therapy.
"They are getting deep into people's personal issues," she says. "I mean, my son is in his early 20s, takes all sorts of medications and now that he's finished with the Integration Groups, he could staff a weekend and work it. He's supposed to help someone and is supposed to know when to stop and start and how far to push a man? It's ridiculous and it's really scary."
Since her son became involved with The ManKind Project, Mary has not seen any real change in him. At least no positive change. Her son is more secretive now and spends much of his time with older men — many members are over 40 — which makes Mary uncomfortable.
"Believe me," says Mary, "I'd kiss these guys if they could perform a miracle with my son. When he decided to go do the weekend, I was scared to death. But I was relieved when he came home, because the fact that he didn't come back and commit suicide means they didn't do him any serious harm."
It was about 5 o'clock on a Monday night when Ralph Scinto received a phone call from his son Michael's employer saying Michael had not shown up for work that day. Immediately, Ralph began to panic.
He knew his son had gone to The ManKind Project retreat two weeks earlier and returned terrified. Michael had told him about the threats, and that he'd fired his Alcoholics Anonymous sponsor, Kim Sawyer. Michael also told his father he'd consulted an attorney to get a restraining order against Sawyer, who he said had been hounding him with phone calls ever since the retreat.
Ralph called his daughter, Becky, and told her he was going to drive over to Michael's apartment in Webster to check on him. Becky said she wanted to go too, and drove over to her dad's house.
Half an hour later, they pulled up next to Michael Scinto's building. Ralph and Becky rushed over to the apartment's front door and began banging on it. When Ralph turned the knob, the door opened.
Ralph Scinto started screaming.
The police arrived shortly after and were hit by the unmistakable stench of decay as soon as they entered the apartment. Blood was everywhere, on the ceiling and on the floor. And there was Michael Scinto, sprawled out on the carpet, a shotgun laying beside him.
Weeks after finding her brother, Becky took several months off from work. A friend had moved Michael's computer from his apartment and gave it to Becky because he could not crack the password. Becky figured it out, and it was then, almost a month after her brother's death, that she first discovered the letter Michael had written to the Madison County sheriff's office.
Becky launched into a two-month research binge. She went on the Internet, reading and printing out countless articles about The ManKind Project. She found chat rooms where people were talking about their negative experiences with the group and where to find crucial insider documents. Becky tracked down every lead. She used Michael's password to get into the restricted members-only section of The ManKind Project Houston's Web site and downloaded internal papers, including the full membership roster. She did not know it at the time, but she was compiling most of the material that would later be the backbone of the family's lawsuit.
"Thank God Michael wrote the letter and thank God we found it," says Becky.
Family members describe Michael as quiet, calm and shy. He was "the type of guy who always left a few dollars more than he needed to as a tip at a restaurant," says his mother Kathy. Michael was not seeing a therapist, and as far she knows, had never tried to harm himself before.
"He was always the strength in our family," remembers Kathy.
Even so, in the years leading up to Michael's suicide, the 29-year-old plumber had been struggling with cocaine and alcohol. As far as his family knew, he had been clean for almost a year and a half up until the week of his death and was putting his life back together after a rocky 2004 during which Michael had bought a boat and a townhouse, only to have the bank foreclose because he was spending money on partying instead of making payments.
"He had psychological problems like anyone has who goes to AA," says Ralph. "He was drinking and drugging. He'd earn $5,000 and spend $10,000."
By the early part of 2005, it looked as though Michael had turned a corner. He was well into the Alcoholics Anonymous program, and had registered his new plumbing company with the Better Business Bureau, bought a new company truck, started a Web site, and had company pens and T-shirts printed up. Michael was forced to rent a less expensive apartment in Webster, but the upshot was it was closer to the Pearland Regional Airport, where Michael indulged his true passion in life, flying.
"He loved flying planes on the weekends," says Kathy, "and he was so optimistic, trying so hard to get his business going. But after the MKP weekend, it was all over. Something had changed."
Two days after Scinto returned from the retreat, he sought psychiatric help at Ben Taub Hospital, complaining of nightmares and painful memories since attending a men's workshop. According to the hospital report released by his family to the Press, Scinto began feeling better soon after checking in. The doctor wrote that Scinto claimed to have been sober for 16 months, but that he requested a tranquilizer. The doctor then scribbled the phrase "drug seeking" at the bottom of the report.
The Harris County Medical Examiner conducted Michael Scinto's autopsy, and concluded that his thoracic blood-alcohol level was 0.24, three times the legal limit to drive, and that he had used cocaine within an hour of his death. Kathy says that her son only began drinking again one week after returning from the retreat.
Three days after Michael Scinto left the hospital, he dated his letter to the Madison County Sheriff's Office attempting to file a complaint about The ManKind Project retreat. He sent the letter, in which he detailed the weekend, including allegations of kidnapping, to former Deputy Larry Adams. But the deputy never filed a complaint. According to a Webster police report, Adams said he reviewed Scinto's letter as well as The ManKind Project contracts he signed. A portion of the contract stipulated that Scinto agreed to remain on the retreat's grounds the entire weekend. The sheriff's office decided that the matter was best suited for a civil court and not a criminal investigation.
Houston contract attorney Dayle Pugh says this decision might have been an error.
"Even if you've contractually agreed to stay," he says, "you can leave any time you damn well please. And if they don't let you go, it really is kidnapping."
Marc Young, attorney for The ManKind Project Houston and Sawyer, says the kidnapping allegation has no merit.
"I really do feel sorry for Michael's parents having to go through this," he says. "Michael had a troubled adult life and obviously he was seeking some answers that he didn't find. But I think the evidence is going to show that at the time, (Michael) requested to stay and that he fully participated when he wanted to and when he didn't, he didn't."
Still, Kathy Scinto believes the last words of her son, penned in the letter to Adams.
"It breaks our heart," she says, "to know that Michael tried so hard to get help and everybody turned him away."
The last time Kathy ever saw her son was two days after he had secretly sent the letter to the sheriff's office. It was also eight days before she would learn of his death. Scinto was supposed to serve as best man at his brother's wedding in two weeks, and went to meet his mother at a Schlotzsky's for lunch to discuss the upcoming event.
But that Sunday, she says, "Michael told me something he had never told me before. He said he thought he was sexually abused by several boys when he was about six years old."
Kathy Scinto had been in the dark about this, but apparently Sawyer was not. According to the police report, Sawyer said that during the retreat Scinto told him about the abuse. It was then that Sawyer told Scinto it would be best to share his recently unearthed memory with the group. Sawyer also told Scinto there was a licensed psychologist on hand that could help him if he wished. Sawyer told police that Scinto made the decision then to remain at the retreat.
But Ralph Scinto doesn't buy any of that.
"Michael felt anxiety after being forced to give over some deep secret in front of all those men," he says. "He couldn't handle it, or thought he shouldn't have told all those strangers. He was embarrassed and ashamed to divulge his secret. It made him feel bad, and he left there feeling even worse about himself."
It is not easy getting people who have attended The ManKind Project initiation weekend to talk about it. The Press contacted dozens of men who said they could not discuss it because of the confidentiality agreement they signed, or because they were scared of retaliation.
Real estate developer David Ward is an exception, perhaps because he views the retreat in a positive light.
"It's a chance for a man to walk through his life and see some of the places that he's stuck," he says. "I don't know if I would have done it the way they did, but the concept and their goal, I believe, is a good and important one."
Ward is no longer an active member. He moved from Houston to Sealy and says it's too far a drive to remain in the group. Ward attended the same weekend as Scinto in July 2005, but doesn't remember him. But like Scinto, Ward knew very little about what he was getting himself into beforehand.
"I was told about it by a friend and thought it would be a men's retreat with challenging events," he says. "The reality was different than I thought."
Ward is careful to walk a fine line in describing the weekend.
"I believe that they are digging deep to try to get emotion from people," he says. "And sometimes you have to do that to get someone to unearth things that are down deep. So I understand the reasoning. There may be a way to process this over several weekends as opposed to the way they do it all at once...without demanding the right response and saying, 'We're not going to stop until you get to the other side of this.' It is easy to be skeptical, but I understand what they are trying to do and where they are trying to go. But they really don't want you to reveal too much about what happened."
Brad Emel, mayor of El Lago, says he attended one of the retreats several years ago, but decided not to stick with the organization.
"It's cool, you know, I enjoyed it," he says. However, "I felt like I just didn't need the type of reinforcement they offer."
When asked why, Emel said, "Because my life's not that fucked up. I've got a pretty good deal going."
When asked specifically about the nudity and rituals, Emel denied knowing anything about it and then said, "I don't know that I'm really that comfortable talking about that."
Cult tracker Ross and an anonymous man who attended the training years ago set up chat rooms for men and their families who feel victimized by the ManKind organization.
Ross began his ManKind Project thread in November 2005, and the anonymous man, who calls himself Warrior X, began his on Yahoo in August 2004. At one point, The ManKind Project's entire protocol manual (running more than 100 pages) was posted on Ross's site. Ross says he doesn't know who put it there. Soon after, the organization's attorneys contacted Ross demanding that he remove the copyrighted information. Ross complied, but was allowed to keep portions of the manual on his site under the fair-use laws, he says.
"I became outraged when I found out what MKP really did to me at the NWTA [New Warrior Training Adventure] and the I-groups," writes Warrior X. "I got even more pissed off when they used their standard lines 'you could have always said no' or 'you could have left at any time' to cover their asses. A man without adequate sleep and food doesn't have the strength to resist MKP, and that's exactly what they want. I was outraged that MKP performed Jungian and gestalt psychological processes on me without telling me ahead of time by unlicensed individuals. And most of all, I was outraged for the hurt that MKP caused me. They did psychological processes on me that unlocked a Pandora's Box of pain and hurt within me that I couldn't deal with. I started the Yahoo group so that my story could be told and so that I could help and support others who were hurt by MKP like myself."
People have posted thousands of messages over the years on the two sites, comfortable in their anonymity.
Writes Dannyjoerocks on the Yahoo site: "On another carpet another man was all wrapped up in ducted[sic] tape on the floor screaming as another man was yelling you can't get out of that, On another carpet a young man was screaming I fucking hate you I fucking hate you look what you did to me. It was like people didn't know what was going on they were in some trance...I felt like I was regressing. I was being taken back to a place where I no longer want to be. A life of chaos where I had no control. The cold shower reminded me of when I didn't pay my bills. Sitting on the cold floor in the shack (after arriving and checking in) reminded me of the holding cell where I waited before going to jail. All the yelling reminded me of my father...I just kept thinking this was very inhumane very very strange stuff. Something is not right."
Writes a person calling himself Henntsp: "Much bullying and abuse goes on simultaneously which I argue can easily cancel out any healing. Amateurs helping amateurs in such an important and vulnerable area as emotional pain is wide open to abuse...as an organization and as individual members they sometimes function with extremely questionable ethics."
Several days after Ralph Scinto buried his son, he began flipping through The ManKind Project's Houston membership roster, filled with names, phone numbers and addresses. Suddenly, he saw an address he recognized. It was a Roman Catholic church. As a Catholic himself, Ralph was stunned. Michael's entire family then began searching all 2,904 entries on the 2005 list to find out who it was that belonged to this secretive group.
They discovered that dozens upon dozens of priests, ministers, therapists, heads of companies, doctors, lawyers and people involved with addiction rehabilitation all had at one point attended The New Warrior Training Adventure.
"We said, 'Oh my God,'" recalls Kathy Scinto. "We couldn't believe it. All these people who belonged were in powerful positions. And they all deal with vulnerable people who could be convinced to go to this thing. It was really scary."
Kathy Scinto then went to speak with a priest who was initiated the same weekend as her son.
"I asked him, 'If I told everyone that you were dancing around naked, what do you think people would say?' " she recalls. "I asked him, 'How can a Catholic priest who is supposed to serve God go into the woods and do these pagan rituals?' He said he was invited to attend and that he doesn't have anything to do with it anymore."
The Press contacted several priests who were on the roster, all of whom declined to comment, referring questions to the Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston. Bishop Joe Vasquez then issued a statement condemning the organization. In an e-mail, he wrote that the archdiocese became aware in late 2005 that priests were members of The ManKind Project. The then-archbishop, Joseph A. Fiorenza, "was concerned that elements of The ManKind Project and its New Warrior Training weekends seemed to reflect a New Age philosophy and were not in harmony with traditional Roman Catholic belief and practices," Vasquez wrote. "Archbishop Fiorenza issued a letter in January 2006 asking priests to refrain from being actively involved in the group or promoting" it. Vasquez says the current archbishop, Daniel N. DiNardo, maintains the same stance as his predecessor.
Mel Taylor, president and CEO of The Council on Alcohol and Drugs Houston, a publicly funded organization providing resources to people adversely affected by drugs and alcohol, is listed as a member. He did not return phone calls requesting comment; however, attorney Wade Quinn, also a member, speaking on Taylor's behalf, said the Council has no connection with the activities of The ManKind Project.
However, some therapists and addiction specialists actively recommend the organization to patients and clients.
George Joseph is a licensed chemical dependency counselor and founder of The Right Step drug rehab center, with locations in Texas, New Mexico and Louisiana. He says he has recommended The ManKind Project to many people.
"If you have any kind of desire to know more about yourself and how to be a better man, then I think it's awesome," he says.
Joseph attended one of the very first Houston initiation weekends in 1992 and is no longer active. However, his company pays for half of the fee should his employees decide to attend the weekend. And looking through the 2005 roster, many have.
When asked if he is concerned about the effect a psychologically stressful retreat could have on someone struggling with addiction, Joseph says that The ManKind Project is not his first recommendation for patients leaving his rehab centers; however, he does refer some people to it once they are out on their own and sober.
"I guess there are two types of people who should be excluded," he says, "if you have no sense of adventure and you think your life is already perfect. (But) I don't see that many people would need to be excluded from it."
Psychotherapist Michael Butera attended the retreat in 2001 and says he also refers patients to the program. He feels it can help men discover they have a connection with other men if they are feeling like outsiders and unconnected to the world.
"I could never do what The ManKind Project does in my office," he says, "because there's no way to give the person feedback like that. I can tell him something, but I'm a therapist. But if he has ordinary guys tell him, it's the kind of validation you cannot get in psychotherapy."
In a way, Butera answers some of the questions that plague critics of The ManKind Project. He admits the weekend is analogous to therapy and that the processes used are powerful enough to cause some men real trauma.
"There are people who would be too fragile to go through it," he says. "And MKP themselves do not want people who are actively psychotic because it may be too overwhelming to them. I think (they) do the best they can with the screening process, but that doesn't mean someone can't get through that might be too fragile. I've never had any difficulty with anyone I've ever referred, but I can appreciate, like in a 12-step program, those are not all professional people who are referring. So, mistakes will be made...and perhaps some people are referred who should not be."
Dr. John Hochman, a psychiatrist and assistant clinical professor at the University of California at Los Angeles School of Medicine, says he has seen a few patients who attended the retreat. One, he says, would not talk about it; another was scared to death.
"Some people can't deal with it," he says. "It rings of bad therapy and doesn't pass the smell test to me. The refrain of all these groups is that they're not therapy groups, they're something else. They're education, yeah, that's a good one."
He gets a chuckle out of the fact The ManKind Project uses parts of Jung and other well-known psychologists.
"What this does is give it a patina of credibility because there's a philosophy behind it and it's not just some mean bully," he says. "It's like, 'We've got this philosophy,' Jung's 'Shadow,' so they're really sensitive and thinking people, (while) putting you through this psychological wringer."
There seems to be a gray area in Texas law as to whether or not practicing techniques such as the ones utilized on the retreats is lawful. There are numerous licensing boards depending on whether you are a psychologist or a counselor. And there does not seem to be a consensus among them.
The Texas Department of State Health Services licenses social workers, counselors, and marriage and family therapists. Spokeswoman Emily Palmer says that so long as the people conducting the activity do not bill themselves as licensed practitioners during the activity, there are no rules against practicing techniques traditionally used by a licensed counselor.
Sherry Lee, executive director of the State Board of Examiners of Psychologists, says sanctions can be imposed.
"If someone is not licensed by our act and they either claim to be a psychologist or to provide psychological services, or if the very nature of what they're doing is psychological services, in other words, if it smells of psychological services, then we would issue them a cease-and-desist order," she says. "There is also an incumbency on anyone who holds a state license that you can't just do something that's in violation of the act or rules. So, if you're a licensed psychologist and you're out there saying, hypothetically, 'I'm doing therapy to reduce your tendency to want to kill yourself,' clearly that is practicing therapy, even though you may call it something else."
About five months after the suicide, Ralph Scinto says he became short-tempered and difficult to live with, so he separated from his second wife and moved into a motel near Bush Intercontinental Airport. He is still there, as if frozen in time.
"I'm just floating, just existing," he says, chain-smoking menthol cigarettes inside an office at the motel. "I try every day not to think about it."
Kathy Scinto still cries at the mere mention of her son, apologizing profusely, as though two years later she should be well and done mourning the loss. But these days, for the first time in what feels like a lifetime, she senses a glimmer of hope: the lawsuit.
"I'm so stressed out I feel like I'm having a heart attack getting all this together," she says. "My family really needs a rest, a break, but we can't rest until The ManKind Project is exposed. Michael tried to expose them by going to the police, and it breaks my heart that no one would listen, but I'm so thankful that his words will finally be able to be heard in court because what happened to him can happen to other people."
She says she will not settle the case. But there is a long way to go before any trial.
For one thing, there is the matter of the contract her son signed before attending the retreat. It clearly stipulates that both Scinto and his heirs surrender their right to sue on grounds of wrongful death and strict liability, two of the allegations in the lawsuit, and if a claim is made, it must first go through arbitration as opposed to litigation in civil court.
"They've actually filed in the wrong area," says Young, attorney for The ManKind Project Houston and Sawyer, "so I don't know what's going to happen with the lawsuit. There are some procedural issues the court is going to have to deal with."
The Scintos' lawyer, George Kelley, says this won't be a problem.
"The court requires that both parties go to mediation in every case before trial anyway," he says. "It's just less formal than arbitration, so I'm not worried about it at all."
Of course, as in any lawsuit, the Scintos are suing for money. But Kathy Scinto insists that's not her primary concern.
"I've told my family that if we get any money," she says, "it's Michael's money and we will put it toward something he would have wanted. The main purpose of the lawsuit is to expose MKP. I mean, in this huge city, how many people have heard of them? Not many. And how many people have problems with drugs and alcohol or see a therapist for whatever reason and are vulnerable and may be convinced to go? Too many. It really scares me."
Ralph Scinto thinks less about the next wave of potential recruits. He seems solely fixated on his pain and those who he believes caused it.
"I try not to talk about Michael too much because it hurts too much," he says. "I get flashes of the way we found him in his apartment, sometimes daily. And they will never go away. I don't feel joy or happiness anymore. I just am. But now that we've initiated this lawsuit, they'll have to look me in the eye and defend what they did. They murdered his spirit. It was the worst kind of murder."
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: none-ya on August 16, 2010, 01:14:58 AM
Ursus, I hope everyone reading reading the suicide thread , reads you last post. maybe you should repost it over there. Thanx.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Ursus on August 16, 2010, 02:04:44 AM
Quote from: "none-ya"
Ursus, I hope everyone reading reading the suicide thread , reads you last post. maybe you should repost it over there. Thanx.
I posted (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=30920&start=45#p373881) a link there; thanks for the suggestion. That thread (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=30920) may also be of interest to those reading this HAPA thread...
Title: Re: Naked Men: The ManKind Project and Michael Scinto
Post by: DannyB II on August 16, 2010, 04:26:02 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
So... here then is the Michael Scinto story:
-------------- • -------------- • --------------
You can read the Michael Scinto story in the post above this one.
first entry: I think the story first off is a crock of shit and the person who posted it is drumming for drama. Hey this is just my opinion, though.
second entry: So because Chris Vogel, Investigative Journalist from the Houston Press in Houston,Tx. wrote a story with information primarily received from Michaels family and other unhappy customers, well then we should just believe everything. I don't remember seeing anything from a Doctor of any profession in writing supporting the claims here. I don't see any evidence supporting any wrong doing by MKP. What I see here is some very profoundly disappointed parents and sibling venting. We have a snippet of Michaels life, who knows what went on in that mans life. What is sad is Michael Scinto being used here for someones grandiose need to prove his point. Hey try to get some documentation from a professional or this post is void. Just my opinion, again. [/b]
Title: Re: Naked Men: The ManKind Project and Michael Scinto
Post by: Ursus on August 16, 2010, 10:33:00 PM
Quote from: "DannyB II"
I think the story first off is a crock of shit and the person who posted it is drumming for drama. Hey this is just my opinion, though.
Lol. Didn't realize I was "drumming for drama," but... hey, it's a lot better than drumming for MKP! :D
Despite your apparent familiarity with this case, it appears that you still have not read Chris Vogel's article, despite condemning it (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30686&p=367123#p367117) at every opportunity...
Quote from: "DannyB II"
So because Chris Vogel, Investigative Journalist from the Houston Press in Houston,Tx. wrote a story with information primarily received from Michaels family and other unhappy customers, well then we should just believe everything. I don't remember seeing anything from a Doctor of any profession in writing supporting the claims here. I don't see any evidence supporting any wrong doing by MKP. What I see here is some very profoundly disappointed parents and sibling venting. We have a snippet of Michaels life, who knows what went on in that mans life. What is sad is Michael Scinto being used here for someones grandiose need to prove his point. Hey try to get some documentation from a professional or this post is void. Just my opinion, again.
Well... it seems ya musta missed this part, mentioning University of Houston Chair of Anthropology and former psychotherapist Norris Lang, color emphasis added:
"What it boils down to," says Rick Ross, head of the Rick A. Ross Institute of New Jersey, which studies cults, groups and movements, "is that
they are doing group therapy, although they won't admit to that, and they are not qualified to do group therapy. They are not licensed and they are not accountable."
Norris Lang, who chairs the anthropology department at the University of Houston and is a former therapist, agrees. He took part in an initiation retreat in 1997 and then attended several Integration Group meetings before deciding to leave the organization.
"Some of the exercises that they had us engage in," he says, "were fairly traumatic and normally, as a psychotherapist, I would have only engaged in some of those activities...in the security of a hospital or psychiatric facility. If you get somebody to get in touch with their feelings from, say, 30 years ago, a time when they were abused as children, that can be fairly dangerous territory for an unprofessional. It's kind of group therapy without any professionals involved."[/list][/size] As well as this part, mentioning psychiatrist and assistant clinical professor at the UCLA's School of Medicine John Hochman; again, color emphasis added:
Dr. John Hochman, a psychiatrist and assistant clinical professor at the University of California at Los Angeles School of Medicine, says he has seen a few patients who attended the retreat. One, he says, would not talk about it; another was scared to death.
"Some people can't deal with it," he says. "It rings of bad therapy and doesn't pass the smell test to me. The refrain of all these groups is that they're not therapy groups, they're something else. They're education, yeah, that's a good one."
He gets a chuckle out of the fact The ManKind Project uses parts of Jung and other well-known psychologists.
"What this does is give it a patina of credibility because there's a philosophy behind it and it's not just some mean bully," he says. "It's like, 'We've got this philosophy,' Jung's 'Shadow,' so they're really sensitive and thinking people, (while) putting you through this psychological wringer."[/list][/size]
Title: Re: Naked Men: The ManKind Project and Michael Scinto
Post by: DannyB II on August 16, 2010, 11:18:51 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "DannyB II"
I think the story first off is a crock of shit and the person who posted it is drumming for drama. Hey this is just my opinion, though.
Lol. Didn't realize I was "drumming for drama," but... hey, it's a lot better than drumming for MKP! :D
Despite your apparent familiarity with this case, it appears that you still have not read Chris Vogel's article, despite condemning it (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30686&p=367123#p367117) at every opportunity...
Quote from: "DannyB II"
So because Chris Vogel, Investigative Journalist from the Houston Press in Houston,Tx. wrote a story with information primarily received from Michaels family and other unhappy customers, well then we should just believe everything. I don't remember seeing anything from a Doctor of any profession in writing supporting the claims here. I don't see any evidence supporting any wrong doing by MKP. What I see here is some very profoundly disappointed parents and sibling venting. We have a snippet of Michaels life, who knows what went on in that mans life. What is sad is Michael Scinto being used here for someones grandiose need to prove his point. Hey try to get some documentation from a professional or this post is void. Just my opinion, again.
Well... it seems ya musta missed this part, mentioning University of Houston Chair of Anthropology and former psychotherapist Norris Lang, color emphasis added:
"What it boils down to," says Rick Ross, head of the Rick A. Ross Institute of New Jersey, which studies cults, groups and movements, "is that
they are doing group therapy, although they won't admit to that, and they are not qualified to do group therapy. They are not licensed and they are not accountable."
Norris Lang, who chairs the anthropology department at the University of Houston and is a former therapist, agrees. He took part in an initiation retreat in 1997 and then attended several Integration Group meetings before deciding to leave the organization.
"Some of the exercises that they had us engage in," he says, "were fairly traumatic and normally, as a psychotherapist, I would have only engaged in some of those activities...in the security of a hospital or psychiatric facility. If you get somebody to get in touch with their feelings from, say, 30 years ago, a time when they were abused as children, that can be fairly dangerous territory for an unprofessional. It's kind of group therapy without any professionals involved."[/list][/size] As well as this part, mentioning psychiatrist and assistant clinical professor at the UCLA's School of Medicine John Hochman; again, color emphasis added:
Dr. John Hochman, a psychiatrist and assistant clinical professor at the University of California at Los Angeles School of Medicine, says he has seen a few patients who attended the retreat. One, he says, would not talk about it; another was scared to death.
"Some people can't deal with it," he says. "It rings of bad therapy and doesn't pass the smell test to me. The refrain of all these groups is that they're not therapy groups, they're something else. They're education, yeah, that's a good one."
He gets a chuckle out of the fact The ManKind Project uses parts of Jung and other well-known psychologists.
"What this does is give it a patina of credibility because there's a philosophy behind it and it's not just some mean bully," he says. "It's like, 'We've got this philosophy,' Jung's 'Shadow,' so they're really sensitive and thinking people, (while) putting you through this psychological wringer."[/list][/size]
Ursus, Rick Ross says nothing really, Norris Lang is a psychotherapist (card reader), which you do not necessarily have to have a degree in and last the only real professional (psychiatrist), had no real comments on Michael Scinto case but rather just discussed he saw a few (2) random folks who attended a MKP weekend or something similar and went on to say the weekend was a psychological wringer. Ursus there is nothing here but some random thoughts from two non professionals in the field of psychiatry and one that is, giving sporadic thoughts concerning MKP. Keep scouring the country for more opinions because so far what you have, was not even worth posting. This is nothing more then your "ragmag" propaganda, I wonder sometimes if that is how you make your living, chasing ambulances, so to speak (pun intended). I had already read Rick Ross and Norris Lang but had not seen the insignificant info concerning this case (Michael Scinto) by your Doctor. Like I said come up with something credible or void this thread. Just my opinion.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: T-Rex on August 17, 2010, 07:19:20 PM
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Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: T-Rex on August 17, 2010, 08:00:37 PM
Some of Texas's influential people that have attended MKP, that Ursus left out. Just shows Ursus has a problem with posting everything, which is why I am questioning his interests in posting information here on this subject. Here are some of the dignitaries alum, Becky Arnett (Michael Scinto's), his sister, took off from work and was able to access the group's internal Web site using her brother's password. She got a copy of the organization's local membership roster, which includes prominent doctors, lawyers and businessmen, as well as therapists and addiction specialists. Some of the more surprising names included El Lago Mayor Brad Emel; Houston Ballet Foundation Director of Marketing and Communication Andrew Edmonson; artist Brooke Stroud of the Menil Collection; Marty Kelly of the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality; and University of Houston Chair of Anthropology Norris Lang. Travis County District Attorney Ronnie Earle's name was also on the list. When contacted by the Press, he declined to comment.
Several days after Ralph Scinto buried his son, he began flipping through The ManKind Project's Houston membership roster, filled with names, phone numbers and addresses. Suddenly, he saw an address he recognized. It was a Roman Catholic church. As a Catholic himself, Ralph was stunned. Michael's entire family then began searching all 2,904 entries on the 2005 list to find out who it was that belonged to this secretive group.
They discovered that dozens upon dozens of priests, ministers, therapists, heads of companies, doctors, lawyers and people involved with addiction rehabilitation all had at one point attended The New Warrior Training Adventure.
"We said, 'Oh my God,'" recalls Kathy Scinto. "We couldn't believe it. All these people who belonged were in powerful positions. And they all deal with vulnerable people who could be convinced to go to this thing. It was really scary."
Of course, merely being listed is no indication of what exactly anyone who went to the retreat did. For instance, one of the people who talked with the Press said he didn't engage in the nudity.
The Scintos came to believe that the group seemed to target vulnerable members of 12-step recovery groups and that its leaders appeared to practice psychology without a state license.
They were especially upset to find the names of several Roman Catholic priests on the roster and contacted the Galveston-Houston Archdiocese with this information.
Now, two years later, Scinto's parents, Kathy and Ralph, have filed a wrongful death lawsuit in Harris County against The ManKind Project Houston and Charles Kimberly Sawyer in an effort to uncover and expose once and for all what happened to their son, and why.
It almost sounds like the lead-in to an old joke: What do you get when you cross an ex-marine, a therapist and a business consultant?
Answer: The ManKind Project.
WOW THIS IS INTERESTING INFO, URSUS LEFT OUT!!!!! Even so, in the years leading up to Michael's suicide, the 29-year-old plumber had been struggling with cocaine and alcohol. As far as his family knew, he had been clean for almost a year and a half up until the week of his death and was putting his life back together after a rocky 2004 during which Michael had bought a boat and a townhouse, only to have the bank foreclose because he was spending money on partying instead of making payments.
"He had psychological problems like anyone has who goes to AA," says Ralph. "He was drinking and drugging. He'd earn $5,000 and spend $10,000."
By the early part of 2005, it looked as though Michael had turned a corner. He was well into the Alcoholics Anonymous program, and had registered his new plumbing company with the Better Business Bureau, bought a new company truck, started a Web site, and had company pens and T-shirts printed up. Michael was forced to rent a less expensive apartment in Webster, but the upshot was it was closer to the Pearland Regional Airport, where Michael indulged his true passion in life, flying.
"He loved flying planes on the weekends," says Kathy, "and he was so optimistic, trying so hard to get his business going. But after the MKP weekend, it was all over. Something had changed."
Two days after Scinto returned from the retreat, he sought psychiatric help at Ben Taub Hospital, complaining of nightmares and painful memories since attending a men's workshop. According to the hospital report released by his family to the Press, Scinto began feeling better soon after checking in. The doctor wrote that Scinto claimed to have been sober for 16 months, but that he requested a tranquilizer. The doctor then scribbled the phrase "drug seeking" at the bottom of the report.
The Harris County Medical Examiner conducted Michael Scinto's autopsy, and concluded that his thoracic blood-alcohol level was 0.24, three times the legal limit to drive, and that he had used cocaine within an hour of his death. Kathy says that her son only began drinking again one week after returning from the retreat. Still, Kathy Scinto believes the last words of her son, penned in the letter to Adams.
"It breaks our heart," she says, "to know that Michael tried so hard to get help and everybody turned him away."
The last time Kathy ever saw her son was two days after he had secretly sent the letter to the sheriff's office. It was also eight days before she would learn of his death. Scinto was supposed to serve as best man at his brother's wedding in two weeks, and went to meet his mother at a Schlotzsky's for lunch to discuss the upcoming event. But that Sunday, she says, "Michael told me something he had never told me before. He said he thought he was sexually abused by several boys when he was about six years old."
Kathy Scinto had been in the dark about this, but apparently Sawyer was not. According to the police report, Sawyer said that during the retreat Scinto told him about the abuse. It was then that Sawyer told Scinto it would be best to share his recently unearthed memory with the group. Sawyer also told Scinto there was a licensed psychologist on hand that could help him if he wished. Sawyer told police that Scinto made the decision then to remain at the retreat.
But Ralph Scinto doesn't buy any of that.
"Michael felt anxiety after being forced to give over some deep secret in front of all those men," he says. "He couldn't handle it, or thought he shouldn't have told all those strangers. He was embarrassed and ashamed to divulge his secret. It made him feel bad, and he left there feeling even worse about himself."
Kathy Scinto then went to speak with a priest who was initiated the same weekend as her son. About five months after the suicide, Ralph Scinto says he became short-tempered and difficult to live with, so he separated from his second wife and moved into a motel near Bush Intercontinental Airport. He is still there, as if frozen in time.
"I'm just floating, just existing," he says, chain-smoking menthol cigarettes inside an office at the motel. "I try every day not to think about it."
"I asked him, 'If I told everyone that you were dancing around naked, what do you think people would say?'" she recalls. "I asked him, 'How can a Catholic priest who is supposed to serve God go into the woods and do these pagan rituals?' He said he was invited to attend and that he doesn't have anything to do with it anymore."
The Press contacted several priests who were on the roster, all of whom declined to comment, referring questions to the Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston. Bishop Joe Vasquez then issued a statement condemning the organization. In an e-mail, he wrote that the archdiocese became aware in late 2005 that priests were members of The ManKind Project. The then-archbishop, Joseph A. Fiorenza, "was concerned that elements of The ManKind Project and its New Warrior Training weekends seemed to reflect a New Age philosophy and were not in harmony with traditional Roman Catholic belief and practices," Vasquez wrote. "Archbishop Fiorenza issued a letter in January 2006 asking priests to refrain from being actively involved in the group or promoting" it. Vasquez says the current archbishop, Daniel N. DiNardo, maintains the same stance as his predecessor.
Mel Taylor, president and CEO of The Council on Alcohol and Drugs Houston, a publicly funded organization providing resources to people adversely affected by drugs and alcohol, is listed as a member. He did not return phone calls requesting comment; however, attorney Wade Quinn, also a member, speaking on Taylor's behalf, said the Council has no connection with the activities of The ManKind Project.
However, some therapists and addiction specialists actively recommend the organization to patients and clients.
George Joseph is a licensed chemical dependency counselor and founder of The Right Step drug rehab center, with locations in Texas, New Mexico and Louisiana. He says he has recommended The ManKind Project to many people.
Title: Re: Naked Men: The ManKind Project and Michael Scinto
Post by: Ursus on August 17, 2010, 09:24:18 PM
Quote from: "T-Rex"
Some of Texas's influential people that have attended MKP, that Ursus left out. Just shows Ursus has a problem with posting everything, which is why I am questioning his interests in posting information here on this subject.
They had nothing to do with my post. There was no reason for mentioning them. They were not "Doctor of any profession in writing supporting the claims here."
Danny wrote that he "didn't remember seeing anything from a Doctor of any profession in writing supporting the claims here," ... and ... I supplied text quoting two mental health professionals from the article itself, which he apparently missed, who felt that MKP was "fairly dangerous territory for an unprofessional" (Lang) and that "it rings of bad therapy and doesn't pass the smell test" (Hochman).
This was the only thing I addressed in my post (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&start=75#p373993), made clear by my highlighting and enlarging aforementioned text within Danny's post in my quote reply. Perhaps I didn't make that clear enough.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: DannyB II on August 17, 2010, 10:18:53 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "T-Rex"
Some of Texas's influential people that have attended MKP, that Ursus left out. Just shows Ursus has a problem with posting everything, which is why I am questioning his interests in posting information here on this subject.
They had nothing to do with my post. There was no reason for mentioning them. They were not "Doctor of any profession in writing supporting the claims here."
Danny wrote that he "didn't remember seeing anything from a Doctor of any profession in writing supporting the claims here," ... and ... I supplied text quoting two mental health professionals from the article itself, which he apparently missed, who felt that MKP was "fairly dangerous territory for an unprofessional" (Lang) and that "it rings of bad therapy and doesn't pass the smell test" (Hochman).
This was the only thing I addressed in my post (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&start=75#p373993), made clear by my highlighting and enlarging aforementioned text within Danny's post in my quote reply. Perhaps I didn't make that clear enough.
Nice try pal, you can keep spinning away until you knit a sweater. You do not meet the bar of being fair Ursus, you are bias and it reared it ugly head throughout your posts concerning this subject of Michael Scinto and the MKP.
Now I saw one mental health professional, please do not profess to say that Norris Lang is a professional in the mental health profession. He does not say this and being a psychotherapist I don't think qualifies you as a professional. Ursus you have one Doctor who gave a haphazard opinion on MKP.
Jeesh you also failed to reveal that Michael Scinto was a drug addict, was in AA and continued to use. His father can't seem to maintain the status quo either, holed up in a motel, divorcing his second wife. There is obviously some emotional and mental issues that had been going on here.
But hey, lets just capture the highlights so we can put together a story, never mind about the real story. Ursus does not like: HAPA -- an LGAT Post by Ursus » January 7th, 2008, 11:19 am viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677) "Perhaps that last post was a bit tasteless of me. Perhaps that is because I consider that whole type of business just that: tasteless. That is, in its most benign form. I think it is usually far more destructive than that for many people.
Now I would have to say that your not a professional either but you seem to have a rather large amount of opinions with a rather caustic emotional side. Ursus do you have personal experience . Oh, thats right your above those questions. Like I told you Ursus, void this thread, you have nothing.
Title: Re: Naked Men: The ManKind Project and Michael Scinto
Post by: Ursus on August 18, 2010, 01:31:28 AM
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "T-Rex"
Some of Texas's influential people that have attended MKP, that Ursus left out. Just shows Ursus has a problem with posting everything, which is why I am questioning his interests in posting information here on this subject.
They had nothing to do with my post. There was no reason for mentioning them. They were not "Doctor of any profession in writing supporting the claims here."
Danny wrote that he "didn't remember seeing anything from a Doctor of any profession in writing supporting the claims here," ... and ... I supplied text quoting two mental health professionals from the article itself, which he apparently missed, who felt that MKP was "fairly dangerous territory for an unprofessional" (Lang) and that "it rings of bad therapy and doesn't pass the smell test" (Hochman).
This was the only thing I addressed in my post (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&start=75#p373993), made clear by my highlighting and enlarging aforementioned text within Danny's post in my quote reply. Perhaps I didn't make that clear enough.
Nice try pal, you can keep spinning away until you knit a sweater. You do not meet the bar of being fair Ursus, you are bias and it reared it ugly head throughout your posts concerning this subject of Michael Scinto and the MKP.
Now I saw one mental health professional, please do not profess to say that Norris Lang is a professional in the mental health profession. He does not say this and being a psychotherapist I don't think qualifies you as a professional. Ursus you have one Doctor who gave a haphazard opinion on MKP.
Jeesh you also failed to reveal that Michael Scinto was a drug addict, was in AA and continued to use. His father can't seem to maintain the status quo either, holed up in a motel, divorcing his second wife. There is obviously some emotional and mental issues that had been going on here.
But hey, lets just capture the highlights so we can put together a story, never mind about the real story.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Whether Michael Scinto was or was not a drug addict has absolutely NOTHING whatsoever to do with your allegation that there was no "Doctor of any profession in writing supporting the claims here." I merely pointed out where said professionals expressed their concerns as to what transpires at these "New Warrior Training Adventures" ... in the very article in which you averred they did not exist.
IN FACT, since ya are hell-bent on introducing it into the conversation, that Michael Scinto had experienced difficulties with drug abuse prior to his weekend with the MKP folk, that he was introduced to MKP and exhorted to attend the NWTA via his AA sponsor Kim Sawyer, not to mention was pressured to share with the group and expose his soul by Sawyer re. childhood sexual abuse within the rubric of MKP ... all serves to underscore the egregious lack of professionalism of MKP as well as to HIGHLIGHT the very concerns the mental health professionals that I quoted spoke of. From the above article (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&start=75#p373876):
"According to the police report, Sawyer said that during the retreat Scinto told him about the abuse. It was then that Sawyer told Scinto it would be best to share his recently unearthed memory with the group. Sawyer also told Scinto there was a licensed psychologist on hand that could help him if he wished."
[/size] Where was this "licensed psychologist" and what the hell did he do for Michael Scinto, as far as helping him deal with dredging up these old and festering wounds? It was after Micheal Scinto's New Warrior Training Adventure, and apparently in response to what it unleashed, that he went off the deep end, ultimately blowing out his brains with a shotgun.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Ursus on August 18, 2010, 01:33:12 AM
A separate issue this:
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Ursus does not like: HAPA -- an LGAT Post by Ursus » January 7th, 2008, 11:19 am viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677) "Perhaps that last post was a bit tasteless of me. Perhaps that is because I consider that whole type of business just that: tasteless. That is, in its most benign form. I think it is usually far more destructive than that for many people.
Now I would have to say that your not a professional either but you seem to have a rather large amount of opinions with a rather caustic emotional side. Ursus do you have personal experience . Oh, thats right your above those questions. Like I told you Ursus, void this thread, you have nothing.
So now ya wanna fault me for having an opinion? LOLLLLLL... Good luck with that! :D
Title: Re: Naked Men: The ManKind Project and Michael Scinto
Post by: DannyB II on August 18, 2010, 11:57:33 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "T-Rex"
Some of Texas's influential people that have attended MKP, that Ursus left out. Just shows Ursus has a problem with posting everything, which is why I am questioning his interests in posting information here on this subject.
They had nothing to do with my post. There was no reason for mentioning them. They were not "Doctor of any profession in writing supporting the claims here." Oh they had everything to do with your post, I do declare. You just choose not to see it this way. It goes a long way in discrediting your allegations that MKP is coercing and abusing people.
Danny wrote that he "didn't remember seeing anything from a Doctor of any profession in writing supporting the claims here," ... and ... I supplied text quoting two mental health professionals from the article itself, which he apparently missed, who felt that MKP was "fairly dangerous territory for an unprofessional" (Lang) and that "it rings of bad therapy and doesn't pass the smell test" (Hochman).
One Doctor who made a flippant comment of no consequence, which Ursus, proceeded to dramatize.
This was the only thing I addressed in my post (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&start=75#p373993), made clear by my highlighting and enlarging aforementioned text within Danny's post in my quote reply. Perhaps I didn't make that clear enough.
Nice try pal, you can keep spinning away until you knit a sweater. You do not meet the bar of being fair Ursus, you are bias and it reared it ugly head throughout your posts concerning this subject of Michael Scinto and the MKP.
Now I saw one mental health professional, please do not profess to say that Norris Lang is a professional in the mental health profession. He does not say this and being a psychotherapist I don't think qualifies you as a professional. Ursus you have one Doctor who gave a haphazard opinion on MKP.
Jeesh you also failed to reveal that Michael Scinto was a drug addict, was in AA and continued to use. His father can't seem to maintain the status quo either, holed up in a motel, divorcing his second wife. There is obviously some emotional and mental issues that had been going on here.
But hey, lets just capture the highlights so we can put together a story, never mind about the real story.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Whether Michael Scinto was or was not a drug addict has absolutely NOTHING whatsoever to do with your allegation that there was no "Doctor of any profession in writing supporting the claims here." I merely pointed out where said professionals expressed their concerns as to what transpires at these "New Warrior Training Adventures" ... in the very article in which you averred they did not exist. Mike Scinto being a head case and a addict had everything to do with this story Ursus and you know this. It goes to his mental state, how cognizant he was, his emotions but utmost his condition. Was he taking drugs before, during and after the weekend retreat. What affect did they have on him. What else was going on with Mike. There was only one professional of any credibility, thanks for trying to pass the other two by us. I really do believe you think the readers here are stupid. OH, my mentioning Mike was a addict did have nothing to do with the fact no Doctors gave credible insight, your right.
IN FACT, since ya are hell-bent on introducing it into the conversation, that Michael Scinto had experienced difficulties with drug abuse prior to his weekend with the MKP folk, that he was introduced to MKP and exhorted to attend the NWTA via his AA sponsor Kim Sawyer, not to mention was pressured to share with the group and expose his soul by Sawyer re. childhood sexual abuse within the rubric of MKP ... all serves to underscore the egregious lack of professionalism of MKP as well as to HIGHLIGHT the very concerns the mental health professionals that I quoted spoke of. From the above article (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&start=75#p373876): Oh, are you getting all upset because your posting of this story showed your lack of integrity to fair posting of stories. First, since I know you have no knowledge of how Mike was asked to go to the weekend, I can put this one under ignorance. Second, you are not qualified to post your opinions on whether MKP was egregious in there lack professionalism or not. Third, please don't even try to tie it back into what your one professional Doctor said. Because he said nothing directly on the MIke Scinto circumstances. Your trying very hard but your lacking hard evidence, your fabricating.
"According to the police report, Sawyer said that during the retreat Scinto told him about the abuse. It was then that Sawyer told Scinto it would be best to share his recently unearthed memory with the group. Sawyer also told Scinto there was a licensed psychologist on hand that could help him if he wished."
[/size] Where was this "licensed psychologist" and what the hell did he do for Michael Scinto, as far as helping him deal with dredging up these old and festering wounds? It was after Micheal Scinto's New Warrior Training Adventure, and apparently in response to what it unleashed, that he went off the deep end, ultimately blowing out his brains with a shotgun.
Once again I will state, you have no authority/knowledge concerning MKP aside from what you read. I have seen the same posts you have and nothing is conclusive at all. Everyone knows there are no licensed therapists and we want it to stay that way. You have no evidenced as usual except your opinion of why Mike blew his brains out. Maybe he wanted to do it before weekend, maybe he planned to do it while at the weekend or on the drive home. Maybe he did not get laid when he returned home from the weekend or found his girlfriend getting laid, maybe , maybe , maybe. Ursus you don't know shit, so stop acting like you do.
Title: Re: Naked Men: The ManKind Project and Michael Scinto
Post by: photo man on August 19, 2010, 12:18:21 AM
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "T-Rex"
Some of Texas's influential people that have attended MKP, that Ursus left out. Just shows Ursus has a problem with posting everything, which is why I am questioning his interests in posting information here on this subject.
They had nothing to do with my post. There was no reason for mentioning them. They were not "Doctor of any profession in writing supporting the claims here." Oh they had everything to do with your post, I do declare. You just choose not to see it this way. It goes a long way in discrediting your allegations that MKP is coercing and abusing people.
Danny wrote that he "didn't remember seeing anything from a Doctor of any profession in writing supporting the claims here," ... and ... I supplied text quoting two mental health professionals from the article itself, which he apparently missed, who felt that MKP was "fairly dangerous territory for an unprofessional" (Lang) and that "it rings of bad therapy and doesn't pass the smell test" (Hochman).
One Doctor who made a flippant comment of no consequence, which Ursus, proceeded to dramatize.
This was the only thing I addressed in my post (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&start=75#p373993), made clear by my highlighting and enlarging aforementioned text within Danny's post in my quote reply. Perhaps I didn't make that clear enough.
Nice try pal, you can keep spinning away until you knit a sweater. You do not meet the bar of being fair Ursus, you are bias and it reared it ugly head throughout your posts concerning this subject of Michael Scinto and the MKP.
Now I saw one mental health professional, please do not profess to say that Norris Lang is a professional in the mental health profession. He does not say this and being a psychotherapist I don't think qualifies you as a professional. Ursus you have one Doctor who gave a haphazard opinion on MKP.
Jeesh you also failed to reveal that Michael Scinto was a drug addict, was in AA and continued to use. His father can't seem to maintain the status quo either, holed up in a motel, divorcing his second wife. There is obviously some emotional and mental issues that had been going on here.
But hey, lets just capture the highlights so we can put together a story, never mind about the real story.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Whether Michael Scinto was or was not a drug addict has absolutely NOTHING whatsoever to do with your allegation that there was no "Doctor of any profession in writing supporting the claims here." I merely pointed out where said professionals expressed their concerns as to what transpires at these "New Warrior Training Adventures" ... in the very article in which you averred they did not exist. Mike Scinto being a head case and a addict had everything to do with this story Ursus and you know this. It goes to his mental state, how cognizant he was, his emotions but utmost his condition. Was he taking drugs before, during and after the weekend retreat. What affect did they have on him. What else was going on with Mike. There was only one professional of any credibility, thanks for trying to pass the other two by us. I really do believe you think the readers here are stupid. OH, my mentioning Mike was a addict did have nothing to do with the fact no Doctors gave credible insight, your right.
IN FACT, since ya are hell-bent on introducing it into the conversation, that Michael Scinto had experienced difficulties with drug abuse prior to his weekend with the MKP folk, that he was introduced to MKP and exhorted to attend the NWTA via his AA sponsor Kim Sawyer, not to mention was pressured to share with the group and expose his soul by Sawyer re. childhood sexual abuse within the rubric of MKP ... all serves to underscore the egregious lack of professionalism of MKP as well as to HIGHLIGHT the very concerns the mental health professionals that I quoted spoke of. From the above article (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&start=75#p373876): Oh, are you getting all upset because your posting of this story showed your lack of integrity to fair posting of stories. First, since I know you have no knowledge of how Mike was asked to go to the weekend, I can put this one under ignorance. Second, you are not qualified to post your opinions on whether MKP was egregious in there lack professionalism or not. Third, please don't even try to tie it back into what your one professional Doctor said. Because he said nothing directly on the MIke Scinto circumstances. Your trying very hard but your lacking hard evidence, your fabricating.
"According to the police report, Sawyer said that during the retreat Scinto told him about the abuse. It was then that Sawyer told Scinto it would be best to share his recently unearthed memory with the group. Sawyer also told Scinto there was a licensed psychologist on hand that could help him if he wished."
[/size] Where was this "licensed psychologist" and what the hell did he do for Michael Scinto, as far as helping him deal with dredging up these old and festering wounds? It was after Micheal Scinto's New Warrior Training Adventure, and apparently in response to what it unleashed, that he went off the deep end, ultimately blowing out his brains with a shotgun.
Once again I will state, you have no authority/knowledge concerning MKP aside from what you read. I have seen the same posts you have and nothing is conclusive at all. Everyone knows there are no licensed therapists and we want it to stay that way. You have no evidenced as usual except your opinion of why Mike blew his brains out. Maybe he wanted to do it before weekend, maybe he planned to do it while at the weekend or on the drive home. Maybe he did not get laid when he returned home from the weekend or found his girlfriend getting laid, maybe , maybe , maybe. Ursus you don't know shit, so stop acting like you do.
Title: Re: Naked Men: The ManKind Project and Michael Scinto
Post by: Dr. Acula on August 19, 2010, 02:14:06 AM
::unhappy::
Title: Re: Naked Men: The ManKind Project and Michael Scinto
Post by: DannyB II on August 19, 2010, 12:59:34 PM
Quote
Felice wrote: sPAMMY.....i CAN'T BELIEVE YOU ARE STILL ALIVE. SURELY THERE IS SOMEONE OUT THERE WHO WOULD PUT A BULLET IN YOU. i KNOW i WOULD ::evil::
Ok, so we had the tragedy of Tim and Sharon with her kids. They were heading home from your house. Maybe one day you will discuss exactly what drugs were taken. Second we know that you are a diturbed little brat that never got her own way. Now wants to make the world pay for it. Felice your about as consequental as PODK's, maybe he should travel to your hellhole in Wisconsin. You two could perform exorcisms on one another. Felice just because the "life" you made for yourself "sucks", doesn't mean you have to take it out on me.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Ursus on August 25, 2010, 11:15:56 AM
Sorry, Danny, hadn't meant to drive you over the brink. I was merely pointing out (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&start=75#p373993) that, despite your claims to the contrary, two mental health professionals HAD indeed been consulted and quoted in Chris Vogel's article re. the merits or demerits of Mankind Project's New Warrior Training Adventure.
Whether or not you or I or anyone else agrees or disagrees with what these two professionals said or even the veracity of their credentials ... is immaterial to your claim, and hence immaterial to my refutation of it.
Those concerns, thoughts, opinions, etc. are certainly up for discussion, however! :D
Title: Comments: "...The MKP and Michael Scinto," #s 1-20
Post by: Ursus on August 25, 2010, 12:15:46 PM
Comments (http://http://www.houstonpress.com/2007-10-04/news/weekend-warriors/) left for the above article, "Naked Men: The ManKind Project and Michael Scinto (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&start=75#p373876)" (by Chris Vogel, Oct 4 2007, Houston Press), #s 1-20:
S Byers · 10/04/2007 5:39:27 AM
Mankind Project would be laudible in its aims if its practices were not so dangerous and abusive. In using amateurs to practice psychotherapy upon unsuspecting and vulnerable men it is laying itself open to gross malpractice - ah - but men are required to sign an injury disclaimer before attending. But it takes about four years for a medical surgeon to become qualified; it takes seven years for a psychotherapist / psychologist to become qualified. Yet MKP thinks that it can train its staff in psychotherapy in a weekend. The appalling suicide mentioned in the above report is but one of a number that have been mentioned on the various forums. MKP is like the very worst of the now illegal hazing fraternities. I know of other men who have had to receive professional counselling for years after attending just one weekend with MKP. The secrecy surrounding its practices are necessary because no sane man would ever pay top dollars and volunteer to be subjected to the appalling abuse (sleep deprivation, physical abuse, mental abuse, spiritual abuse, food deprivation, extreme cold, removal of medications, etc.) that is meted out to participants on the New Warrior Training Weekends. Many of these weekends are held at Christian Camps, Kiwanis, etc., all of whom organisations I suspect haven't a clue as to what will be going on. And having screwed up vulnerable men's minds MKP spits them out and then fails to suppport them when they have re-entry problems into the everyday world. And sadly MKP is a world wide organsiation which like a cancer has spread into schools and prisons. Thank you for your in-depth report. SB.
Chris · 10/04/2007 10:45:53 AM
Chris Vogel, great article! I suggest you look into the EST (Ernhard Seminars Training) and Sterling Institute backgrounds of the founders of MKP.
Rory Bowman · 10/04/2007 4:33:54 PM
Any humane person can have nothing but compassion for the Scintos on the loss of their son. That they wish to blame some outside group for this is understandable. Goodness knows that Texan men with drug and alcohol problems have never used guns or drugs to harm themselves before, and I am certain that this lawsuit will solve everyone's problems forever, as MKP failed to. If only young Michael had found Jesus, the way my own brother did the morning when HE killed himself.
Mark ANDERSON · 10/05/2007 6:21:26 AM
I am so sorry for this family but they should not try and blame the MKP for their sons problems. My experience was one of the best things I have ever done in my recovery and in my life. I could leave at any time I wanted and one guy did leave on our weekend. That was fine. There was never anything sexual and it was a very healing weekend.
Jim Stinson · 10/05/2007 10:07:04 AM
From a completely outside perspective, the author appears to be very biased and not too interested in reporting anything fair or balanced. That said, if MKP is this horrible organization doing all these awful things, the question must be asked - and a glaring omissing from this story imho - "to what end are they doing this?" Monetary gain? World domination? Sadistic thrills? And where is the logical comparison, in this report, to other institutions where men go through extremem physical and emtional stress during some for of extended training / initiation ritual .. say .. basic training for the military? Are parents suing the Marines for damage done to their sons during basic? Is the HoustonPress reporting it?
H Lowenburg · 10/05/2007 2:45:44 PM
Because of the Mankind Project: I have reunited with my family, learned how to feel and express feelings, discover much about myself and I now have close friends that are men I can trust - something new for me. It is not the practice of psychology any more than any support group. It is about men being real with each other. It is about self-discovery. One of the guidelines that have always been emphasized every time I have been with MKP is that any man can pass. That includes leaving the weekend and I have seen men leave many times. I do not lie to or miss lead anyone about what goes on at New Warrior training. The men of this organization model compassion, integrity and citizenship for me. Chris, you really got this story wrong. I am proud to be part of sponsoring the first New Orleans New Warrior Training Adventure October 26, 2007. I judge that it important to the healing of my city.
Joey Johansen · 10/05/2007 5:40:20 PM
My heart goes out to the parents of this man. I can't imagine many losses as painful as the suicide death of one's child. I can also understand wanting to blame someone else for his death; I would probably want to do the same, at least initially. Unfortunately, this man's parents have chosen to attack an organization that has helped tens of thousands of men around the world and which I seriously doubt had anything to do with their son's choice to kill himself. I am not a member of MKP but I have known several men who have derived tremendous benefit from the New Warrior Weekend and their involvement in the organization's weekly men's groups. I've talked with a few of these men about this article and to a man they report that none of the claims made by the parents or the reporter are true. For example, all but one indicated that they each knew of at least one man who left the weekend training within the first 24 hours. They never heard any threats being made and in fact remarked on the compassion and support given to the men who left by the MKP staff members. All the men also emphasized that it is made very clear to the participants that the weekend experience is not therapy and men that are seeing a psychologist or other mental health professional are told that they should talk about their experience with their therapist and should not change anything about their treatment. Getting back to the article itself, I can't help thinking that this newspaper reporter has decided to make a name for himself by crafting a sensational tale of injustice and abuse and selling it to the public as legitimate investigative journalism. The reporter's sensationalized prose reeks of bias and pandering to the public's fascination with cults. It seems to me that he has--rather skillfully--distorted events, omitted crucial information, ascribed motives to others without evidence, and packaged it all in a compelling narrative. I can't believe the Houston Press published such a biased article. But then again, I understand that many newspapers, desperate to remain solvent amid rapidly declining subscriber rolls, have chosen to go the way of the tabloids and focus on what sells: sensationalism and tall tales. In this case, the death of a man is agonizingly true but the cause as described in the parents' lawsuit and this piece of hack journalism will probably prove to be pure fiction. It's easy to point a finger at a men's organization that incorporates rites of passage and group processes that don't jibe with America's puritanical bent. It's much more difficult to understand the multiple factors that lead to a person's decision to kill himself and the steps friends and family can take to prevent suicide and to cope with the aftereffects if it has already happened.
Colin · 10/05/2007 8:49:32 PM
I'm a Northern California New Warrior who did my weekend in September of 04. I'm involved with staffing, I-Groups, and supplemental trainings, and take great pride in the work I've done and the signicant changes I've seen in men as a part of this organization. I feel terrible for Michael Scinto and his family; I stand by the overwhelmingly positive attributes of the NWTA and MKP in general, however. A couple of things to remember: men's initiation rituals have been secret since their inception, thousands of years ago. There's power in it. I've never seen or experienced anything creepy or untoward going on in an NWTA. My brother killed himself nine years ago, after a long history of depression and substance abuse. What happened in the weeks leading up to his death probably had little to do with his overall decision. I believe this applies to the situation in this story. Also, as a journalist myself, I judge much of this article was written with hearsay, and as a member of an NWTA staff myself I believe some of it was misreported. My condolences to the man's family. I don't believe MKP was liable for his death, however.
Anonymous · 10/06/2007 6:15:10 AM
If this organization is so great, why is it so secretive? Why all of the waivers and agreements for confidentiality? It is a scam and income tax evasion scheme. It's also illegal hazing and illegal group therapy. Its leaders use the group to further their outside careers, sales contacts, professional networking, all to put money in their pockets, at the financial and emotional expense of immature men. Real men do not need Warrior Weekends.
Sean · 10/06/2007 8:13:42 AM
MKP has flaws. The initiate weekend is certainly full of strange and uncomfortable experiences. (It supposed to be!)Before you participate you are certainly given the choice to leave. Once you begin the weekend you still can leave but the agreement is that you will be grilled before you do since you were asked prior and warned prior not to enter unless you have the desire, guts and the integrity to go through with it. There are many men like this who should not show-up at all and should have been screened out since they tend to diminish the weekend for other men who show-up to face the ugly realities of their lives- one of which is the anger men in this society carry daily in suffocation and addiction while vicariously experiencing it through movies and sport. This critique is comical- especially when we as a nation train thousands of young men to be killers in our armed forces, stupid unenlightened killers. I was one once. The rituals in the armed services are as strange as MKP's. But the objectives are very different. The US government doesn't seek to make one more aware, caring, compassionate and mature as MKP's goals seek- just the opposite, at much more than $650, that we pay for as taxpayers. This person would most likely have whined his way out of Marine boot camp too. He would have gone through hell if he had and nothing would be made of it. Please........
Joey Johansen · 10/06/2007 8:37:04 AM
Folks interested in this article and the ensuing debate should know that the Houston Press also has a blog where you can read and post comments:
http://blogs.houstonpress.com/houstoned ... projec.php (http://blogs.houstonpress.com/houstoned/2007/10/cover_story_the_mankind_projec.php) Joey[/list] Paul G · 10/06/2007 8:49:24 AM
My heart goes out to the Scinto's--the parents of Michael Scinto who took his own life. I wish to share some of my thoughts and experiences. I went through the Mankind Project training in 2005. Prior to that, I had worked with a dozen or so therapists since the early 1970's to recover from years of abuse from a sadistic father--abuse allowed by an unstable mother. My work with MKP was an important part of healing from my past--healing which continues to this day. My experience of MKP has been nothing but positive. I felt safe during my weekend experience and indeed confronted many of my "demons" during the weekend in ways I could never have done in a therpist's office. I took many steps forward during that weekend and afterward. Certain kinds of healing cannot be achieved in a therapist's office but can more effectively be accomplished in the presence and power of a group of supportive men. It is natural for Michael Scinto's parents to want to blame someone or something else for the death of their son. Instead of, or in additon to suing MKP, I hope the parents will do the most difficult of tasks--examine themselves as parents and examine their roles in causing their son's pain, for Michael's pain began long before he ever even heard of Mankind Project. The Houston reporter should've investigate how Michael Scinto was parented. The quote at end of the article is telling, but to me in a different way: "They murdered his spirit. It was the worst kind of murder." Anyone who has studied Swiss psycho-analyst's Alice Miller's works will understand that the murder of a person's Spirit begins with the parents.
Matthew Owens · 10/06/2007 3:06:57 PM
I attended an MKP initiation in 2003 in Madisonville, Tx. Yes you are greeted by men in dark robes and they take away your personal belongings. You are also warned in the what to bring flyer that this will occur. In the first hour of my initiation a young man cracked and decided to leave. He was not threatened in any way and all that the men who were leading the initiation asked of him in front of all to see was that he be accountable and share the truth as to why he would not continue. He then left without questions. Yes we were deprived of food until the feast. We were given granola and fruit, lots of water, and we were not limited on the quantity of either. It is called in other cultures, FASTING, nothing to be frightened of. We were forced to do things as part of the process, however never did I feel in danger of being hurt or losing my life. Out of my comfort zone, yes, however the entire weekend was about breaking out of the comfort zone, which is artificial, and tends to numb us all. I feel for the family that lost their son. It is terrible that he was not screened out by his sponsor who invited him. God bless his family and the terrible guilt they must feel. However in my experience I never felt like I was part of a "Hazing". I went to College Prep in New England area, trust me I knew what it felt like. As far as the question of competency of the MKP members that were running the event, I have never come across a larger group of truely compassionate people. Being that I was sponsored by a local Houston man, I knew absolutely nothing of anyone, except for my sponsor. I trusted his judgement that I would be safe. Being a warrior in life is all about learning to walk in peace in a world that is full of danger. Nothing in this world is guaranteed. Bad things happen to good people all of the time. Terrible things happen to people in the offices of licensed therapists. Doctors kill more people than guns. The statistics speak for themselves. We cannot outlaw doctors merely because there are bad ones, can we? People must learn to be accountable for themselves and not believe that they must be taken care of by their government or by their parents. Hurricane Katrina was a tragic example of this. What has happened to our sense of community among our fellow citizens? A bit of compassion for each other, a random act of kindness each day, can make the world a better place. That is what MKP teaches.
William Greene Comma Billy · 10/06/2007 7:08:22 PM
damn, from all the comments this group is a bit bigger than I imagined. I think if MKP had responded to the interviewer, they could have maybe gotten a better take on both sides of the story, but alas, they didn't seem too willing to talk about much. Pretty damn strange, but whatever floats your boat. Touch your neighbor's dick! Priceless. I would have been out long before that, but man, that woudl have definitely made me run for the hills. Plus, I never go anywhere where I don't have an "out", I take my car or definitely have a trusted ride. May your jimmies hang low and graze the ground. Pass the wood cock!
T.J. Smith · 10/06/2007 7:51:30 PM
I was very disappointed with this highly-sensational article on the Warrior weekend, starting with the title "Naked Men." The out-of-context description of the activities of the weekend does a great disservice to this work. Consider how a Sunday at a Catholic Mass might sound, with a similar hack job. People were kneeling and chanting before a man wearing a skirt. They blew choking smoke around the room. The man in the skirt gave people human flesh to eat and blood to drink. He then doused an infant with water, producing screams of terror. You get the idea.
Anonymous · 10/06/2007 9:00:01 PM
I did the weekend in 1995. My experience was very different from what is described in this article. I was in a 12 step program before I went, but no one from that program pressured me to attend. My therapist suggested it after a couple of years of group therapy. When I got there I was surprised to see a bunch of men I knew from 12 step staffing the weekend and working at the lodge. When they say it isn't psychotherapy, I think they are correct. The weekend is a true initiation, in the ancient "joining the tribe" or "becoming a man" sense. Anyone interested in attending probably ought to research how those work. I had been looking for something like that since high school, so I welcomed the New Warrior experience. It was scary, difficult and challenging, but I felt safe the entire time I was there. Men are free to leave at any point. No one was going to kill anyone. I later staffed a weekend and saw how hard they work to keep the men safe. I was told to carpool so I would be with other initiates for the ride home, not because of a lack of parking. That gave us time to talk about the experience and bond. Our carpool group was in the integration group, so we kept seeing each other for the next few months. When it was over, my deep fear of other men was gone. In its place was compassion, trust and love. It changed my life for the better. Maybe New Warrior has changed since I did the weekend. I could see the potential for for that after I did the weekend. They employed many of the same techniques used to indoctrinate people into cults. They lacked a charismatic leader and some other aspects of cults, but the potential for abuse was there. Maybe they really harmed Michael Scinto. I hope not, because it would be sad if men no longer had the opportunity to do this work.
Joey Johansen · 10/06/2007 10:27:24 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anonymous wrote the following on October 6, 2007 @ 06:15AM: If this organization is so great, why is it so secretive? Why all of the waivers and agreements for confidentiality? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hmmmm. I imagine for the same reasons that I have to sign lengthy agreements when my kids play soccer. Or when I sign up for a site on the Internet or download some free software. Have you read any of those "Terms of Service?!" I saw the form MKP requires on a website and it's frankly a lot more straightforward and shorter than many such documents. It also makes it clear what a man is responsible for, e.g., that and other MKP documents make it clear that if a man believes he is unstable or ill-prepared for an intensive men's weekend that he should not attend. At least that's my reading of it. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anonymous wrote the following on October 6, 2007 @ 06:15AM: It is a scam and income tax evasion scheme. It's also illegal hazing and illegal group therapy. Its leaders use the group to further their outside careers, sales contacts, professional networking, all to put money in their pockets, at the financial and emotional expense of immature men. Real men do not need Warrior Weekends. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you Judge Anonymous! You seem to have reached some very confident conclusions based on your thorough research of the organization. Seriously, what do you base your accusations on? What evidence exists that "income tax evasion" is a motive? How does the law define "illegal group therapy" and how did (does) MKP violate it? And on what do you base your assertion that men who attend the MKP weekend are "immature" unlike "real" men like yourself? Have you actually met and talked with men in MKP?
Joey Johansen · 10/06/2007 10:58:55 PM
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul G wrote the following on October 6, 2007 @ 08:49AM ... The quote at end of the article is telling, but to me in a different way: "They murdered his spirit. It was the worst kind of murder." Anyone who has studied Swiss psycho-analyst's Alice Miller's works will understand that the murder of a person's Spirit begins with the parents. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't think this is a fair accusation to make. It's really not different from the accusations the author of the HP article makes. Neither your (Paul G's) nor the reporter's accusations are supported by convincing evidence and they are both biased. You *assume* that Mr. Scinto's parents caused a good portion of his troubles but you have no evidence upon which to base such a conclusion. May I suggest that perhaps you are "projecting" your own experience onto Mr. Scinto and his parents? Also, talk to a few people who have had a family member commit suicide before you make such assumptions. I know three friends who have lost a family member to suicide and they have each experienced tremendous guilt about what they could have done differently to (in their mind) prevent their loved one's suicide. However, as each of my three friends progressed through therapy and/or support groups, as they prayed and talked with their minister or rabbi, as they talked with friends, they came to see that the suicide was not their fault. It was a choice their loved one made and that person is the only one to "blame" if one is inclined to assign blame at all. None of my friends chose that option; they each came to the conclusion that the "blame game" was an understandable attempt to find a focus for their anger and overwhelming sadness but that ultimately it primarily served to freeze their emotional anguish. Although having some relief from the relentless waves of grinding grief felt good for awhile they eventually recognized that they were simply using blame to forestall the deep, all-consuming sadness that they felt. Once they let go of the need to blame they did indeed experience several weeks during which waves of suffocating sorrow nearly immobilized them. But, as they let the sadness flow, they gradually found themselves accepting the loss of their loved one. They forgave him (in all three instances it was a male family member) and they forgave themselves.
ABC · 10/07/2007 11:26:03 AM
Very poor reporting. No context is offered for the retreat items mentioned (which the reporter should have been able to give if he does indeed have the protocols). He says Scott Cole is the executive director--he hasn't been nearly two years. He bases most of his criticism on folks from Rick Ross's webpage, without asking what their own biases might be. He never asks what things Michael Scinto might have been diagnosed with before the Warrior weekend. I went. I could offer criticisms of the event, but I don't think that could be done fairly in this context. On the Rick Ross forums, anyone who mentions anything positive about their experience is shouted down. As to the "Naked men beating cooked chickens with a hammer"--this is something that happens at the end, which is clearly a moment where the leaders poke fun at much of the whole weekend. That seems healthy, to me. As to one commenter's suggestion that people learn psychotherapy in a weekend--no. Initiates are invited to come back and staff, but it takes many staffings, and much additional training, before anyone is put in a position of leader. There's no talk in this article about why people might go on this; what are the needs of male initiation today, what are men looking for, how might a man seek integrity with himself, accountability with his brothers, overcoming wounds from fractured relationships with fathers. As to secret rituals--what about those initiation rites done by Masons and the Knights of Columbus. Ask the latter about their use of a human skull and bones. Ask about their commitment to secrecy.
Josh Harben · 10/08/2007 9:05:18 AM
I am saddened by this man's suicide and grieve for his loved ones and family. I have been involved with MKP for 5 years and it has been a positive force in my life; helping me to me the man I want to be and live a life of integrity. The weekend is meant to "shake things up", but the portrayal in this article is a clear distortion, especially the supposedly coercive aspects. It also fails to mention the very positive impact that the community continues to have long after we have finished the weekend initiation, which only lasts for 2 days.
° ° °
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: DannyB II on August 25, 2010, 11:16:56 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Sorry, Danny, hadn't meant to drive you over the brink. I was merely pointing out (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&start=75#p373993) that, despite your claims to the contrary, two mental health professionals HAD indeed been consulted and quoted in Chris Vogel's article re. the merits or demerits of Mankind Project's New Warrior Training Adventure.
Whether or not you or I or anyone else agrees or disagrees with what these two professionals said or even the veracity of their credentials ... is immaterial to your claim, and hence immaterial to my refutation of it.
Those concerns, thoughts, opinions, etc. are certainly up for discussion, however! :D
Ursie, that would be one, as in (1) professional. Please, stop misleading folks here. I would post the actual professional person associated with this post but I think everyone has got it by now. Thanks, for the debate but this one is wrapped up.
Title: Comments: "...The MKP and Michael Scinto," #s 21-40
Post by: Ursus on September 12, 2010, 03:56:24 PM
Comments (http://http://www.houstonpress.com/2007-10-04/news/weekend-warriors/) left for the above article, "Naked Men: The ManKind Project and Michael Scinto (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&start=75#p373876)" (by Chris Vogel, Oct 4 2007, Houston Press), #s 21-40:
Mark Jones · 10/08/2007 9:52:33 AM
I am very sorry for the man's family. At the same time, it is truly unfortunate and irresponsible to blame the Warriors for this man's death. Obviously, he was a very troubled man--and the Warriors failed to save him from his demons. This is not to say it is the Warriors' fault that he is dead. I suppose one could go back over the past few months and find many people and experiences that adversely affected him. Are we to sue all of them for his death?
Mark Jones · 10/08/2007 10:02:00 AM
I was greatly disappointed by this article. The writer's sensationalist treatment of the rituals show exactly why they are secret. Taken out of context, they seem bizarre, cultish, and even nutty. In their proper context, they are part of a deeply moving and meaningful experience.
Susan Dancy · 10/08/2007 11:26:36 AM
My heartfelt sympathy and condolences to the family and friends of Michael Scinto. I know many men who have participated in the MKP weekend and, for them, it has been a life-affirming experience. Although I agree with some of the concerns raised in Mr. Vogel's, I found the majority of the comments biased, exagerated and ignorant of the reality of the process. The men I know who are involved with MKP are not perfect. But they are sincere. It is not a cult. It is a community.
Susan Dancy · 10/08/2007 12:42:09 PM
"Michael Scinto was literally scared to death." Yellow journalism at its worst. Shame on you, Houston Press.
Susan Dancy · 10/08/2007 12:42:11 PM
"Michael Scinto was literally scared to death." Yellow journalism at its worst. Shame on you, Houston Press.
anonymous · 10/08/2007 6:55:04 PM
Too much opportunity for blackmail. Either overt or covert.
Derrick & Shelley · 10/08/2007 8:24:21 PM
After reading this article we strrongly believe that this group should be under further investigation. They are preying upon young men who have emotional and physical problems. They are going after easy targets,the ones who are despertly seeking help. Unfortunely a life was lost for this story to be made published. Justice will be served.
Frances · 10/08/2007 10:41:08 PM
Despite the outcries in the comments, I found this article to be a balanced and focused look at a troubling event. Perhaps not all MKP events are like what Michael Scinto experienced, but even the smallest amount of oversight of the events could have prevented his death and gone a long way toward reassuring the public that the majority of MKP events are not as traumatic. Mr. Vogel's article revealed what can occur when organizations are permitted to operate in the dark, using secrecy, fear, and intimidation to reduce the conversation to whispers. Thank you Mr. Vogel for opening the door.
Derek Dujardin · 10/09/2007 8:58:14 AM
This "Mary" has never been to a weekend and therefore has very distorted view of it. I can't believe the Houston Press would run one-source story. For the vast majority of the men who go through the weekend, it's quite thearputic. The fact that her son is off drugs is something she should be grateful for and she doesn't seem to want to give any credit to this fact that perhaps the weekend worked for him. I've been to one weekend and have staffed another. The weekend is not intended to make your comfortable. It's intended to push you to make a breakthrough, and breakthroughs are never comfortable, change is never comfortable. The comment about guys grabbing each other's dicks in the sweat lodge is an absolute fabrication. Trust me, if that kind of shit was happening every weekend, to over 4000 men around the world, do you really think men would invite other men to such a weekend? Do you think this organization would be around for 23 years? Use your head.
ABC · 10/09/2007 9:58:23 AM
So, you folks who are so impressed with this fellow's research ... Why didn't he discover that Scott Cole hasn't been executive director for nearly two years? Why didn't he discover that Mel Taylor isn't merely a member, but is chairman of the board of the Mankind Project, Houston? These seem to be basic facts. He missed them.
Joey Johansen · 10/09/2007 8:43:19 PM
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Derrick & Shelley wrote on October 8, 2007 @ 08:24PM: After reading this article we strrongly believe that this group should be under further investigation. They are preying upon young men who have emotional and physical problems. They are going after easy targets,the ones who are despertly seeking help. Unfortunely a life was lost for this story to be made published. Justice will be served. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ If you base your assumptions and judgments on one source of information, which several readers found to be quite biased, do you really believe you are on solid footing? Two "facts" in your comment are disputable: 1) The average age of MKP members is probably about 40, so it's a bit of a stretch to say that the organization "preys on young men." (Although I'm sure many of them would be flattered to be called young!) 2) None of the men who I know in MKP (six of them) had "emotional and physical problems" prior to participating in the MKP weekend--at least no more than any other average human being! You make it sound as if MKP members are lurking around homeless shelters, mental health facilities, and rehabs trying to recruit members! In addition, it is my understanding that many MKP members who are also recovering addicts/alcoholics recommend that a man have at least one year of sobriety/clean time before participating in the MKP weekend. Of course, a year of sobriety is no guarantee, as was unfortunately the case with Mr. Scinto, but it does suggest that MKP does *not* seek to exploit a man's vulnerability. They aren't stupid; they realize that if they accepted a bunch of guys with severe mental illness that they would open themselves up for criticism and lawsuits. That's why they screen applicants. As I said earlier, maybe they need to modify the screening procedure--I don't know--but to assume that they are exploiting men is way off base. However, I can see how you got that impression from Mr. Vogel's sensationalized, one-sided article.
Joey Johansen · 10/09/2007 9:17:48 PM
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Frances wrote on October 8, 2007 @ 10:41PM: Despite the outcries in the comments, I found this article to be a balanced and focused look at a troubling event. Perhaps not all MKP events are like what Michael Scinto experienced, but even the smallest amount of oversight of the events could have prevented his death and gone a long way toward reassuring the public that the majority of MKP events are not as traumatic. Mr. Vogel's article revealed what can occur when organizations are permitted to operate in the dark, using secrecy, fear, and intimidation to reduce the conversation to whispers. Thank you Mr. Vogel for opening the door. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How do you know it was balanced? Have you talked with people who found the article to be very biased, to contain several errors, to have relied heavily on a discredited "cult expert," etc.? You also state, "... even the smallest amount of oversight of the events could have prevented his death ..." How do you know? I don't think you realize how difficult it is to evaluate and accurately predict if a person will commit suicide. The vast majority of people who have suicidal thoughts do not act on them. The vast majority of recovering alcoholics/addicts do not commit suicide. The vast majority of individuals suffering from depression do not commit suicide. It is true that each of those three factors increase the risk of suicide but even if a person possesses all three risk factors the odds are much, much greater that he will *not* commit suicide that that he will kill himself. Another way to look at this issue is if we involuntarily committed every person with suicidal thoughts, alcohol and other drug problems, and/or depression our nation's entire economy would come to a grinding halt because tens of millions of citizens would be locked up on psych wards. Given how difficult it is to evaluate and predict if a person will commit suicide, how can we expect an organization like MKP to determine with 100% accuracy who will and will not commit suicide after attending an MKP weekend? If we were to demand such a predictive accuracy, then shouldn't we expect if of all organizations? For example, shouldn't churches and other houses of worship be required to screen all people who attend their services or become members to determine their suicide risk? Now, I recognize that some of you will object to the comparison by stating that churches don't charge money for their services. That's true to a point, i.e., generally people aren't officially turned away because of a lack of donations. On the other hand, I don't know what your church is like but I don't know many church goers, myself included, who aren't frequently asked for money--from the pulpit, with the collection plate, from the fund raising committee, for the capital campaign, to benefit the scholarship fund, to support the national office, etc. So I'd hardly call churches "free!" Others might object to my comparison claiming that churches aren't a "personal growth organization" like MKP. My reply to that argument would be: "Really?" I thought that personal growth, of which spiritual/religious growth is a big part, was one of the main benefits of church involvement. It is for me and I think is for most sincere church members. (Of course, there are always the "see and be seen" crowd who dress to impress, drum up new business for themselves, pay lip service to the true meaning of their faith, and are non-stop gossips but that's thankfully the minority of religious persons.)
Michael · 10/10/2007 10:30:11 AM
I can't believe some of these comments that people are writing. How can they not have sympathy for this Scinto family? This was a very powerful story and hopefully it will save lives rather than destroy them. My heart goes out to the Scintos and I pray for them and wish them the best of luck. Please have faith, believe and do not pay attention to all the rude people, but know that there are people out here who do care. Nice job, Vogel....
Susan Dancy · 10/10/2007 10:58:31 AM
"I can't believe some of these comments that people are writing. How can they not have sympathy for this Scinto family? This was a very powerful story and hopefully it will save lives rather than destroy them." _______________________________________________________________________________________ I have sympathy for the Scinto family and am greatly saddened by the terrible emotional pain they have been through. My comment is that the MKP is an organization of men who, for the most part, seek to make postiive changes, not only in their own lives, but in the world. It is not some secretive cult trying to lure unsuspecting and vunerable men into its evil clutches. It is an organization of men supporting other men in personal growth, intergrity and accountability. The process of the weekend is not about secrecy. It is about confidentiality. Maybe after this tragedy and the publicity around it, some of those "secrets" will be revealed. Will it take some of the magic and mystery away from the experience? Probably. Will it diminish the good work these men are doing? I pray not.
anonymous · 10/10/2007 2:18:03 PM
I attended a party where most of the men were members of the mkp. I've never seen so many disfunctional men in one place before. They seem to be the ones that don't quite fit into normal society. The mkp is the blind leading the blind. They can be summed up in two words....fruit loops.
Anonymous · 10/10/2007 3:51:38 PM
Warriors.... COME OUT AND PLAAAAAYYYYYY! CAAAANNNNN YYYYYOOOOUUUUU DIG IT!!!!!
anonymous · 10/10/2007 6:43:50 PM
I find it fascinating that Joey Johansen has nothing better to do than comment on every f%$#ing posting. Get a freakin' life.
Bob · 10/10/2007 7:26:06 PM
Chris, I thought I'd also post this here. I hope you don't mind. "Bob" here. I am one of the men Mr.Chris Vogel contacted. I gave him permission to share my experience with MKP and my recovery program. Years ago my wife "Cathy" and I thought we had made friends with another couple in recovery. We all spent time together. Good times and bad. That all went away when I started to express my concerns about that Warrior Weekend. Yes I got information off the internet. But who doesn't these days ? I also got back-up information from human sources. I was told I wasn't ready for the Weekend. It wasn't for me. But I was also told that I had wounds and Shadow Work to do. A lot to do by their count. I was angry but two people I love dearly, my wife and my recovery sponsor made comments to me that snapped me right out of my self-centeredness and help put me back on track with my program. From my wife one day: "Why are you angry ? You're still alive and sober." From my sponsor: "Tradition number 10" It reads " Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside matters; hence the A.A. name ought never be drawn into public controversy" Our middle son has come back in to his recovery program. Today, he is alive and sober. I can't imagine a child of mine killing themself regardless of the reasons. Our hearts and prayers go out to Michael's family. Warm regards, "Bob"
Tim · 10/10/2007 9:59:31 PM
I was not there on the Houston weekend, so I cannot speak for them; however, I can say that of all the men that I know in MKP, they all live their lives from their integrity and are committed to improving their lives and their communities. Experiencing the NWTA was one of the most powerful things I have done in my life. An issue that had plagued me for 13 years was removed that weekend and has allowed me to live an incredibly joy filled life. Is the weekend intense? Yes it is. And it was because it was intense that enabled my healing to happen. Is it perfect? No. Is there anything I would change? Yes. I had a man on my weekend joke about what was going to happen during the next exercise (his statement was not true, and I felt he was just trying to screw with my head). I have read the MKP protocols and they are about creating a safe space so that men feel safe enough to look at the issues that plague their life and I want to challenge any staff men to adhere to them and not to put in their sideways comments that they think are funny, because we never know the effect that those comments will have on another human being. That being said, I would still recommend it to any recovery minded person who has been on his recovery path for at least 2 or 3 years. I would like to add that I do not believe that any one single event would cause a person to commit suicide, that it would take years of feeling that one was in a hopeless situation to come to that point. I would at this point like to say that that does not diminish how his family feels and that my thoughts and prayers are with them through this incredibly trying time.
Reversable Goldfish10/11/2007 12:54:36 AM
I just completed (10/07) the Gateway Weekend of the New Warrior Training, the weekend for mostly gay, bi & questioning men, though hetero men also attend. It was a traumatic weekend for me. The methods of MKP are not for everyone. Yet 26 of the 27 men who attended seemed to have a meaningful powerful weekend. The description of the weekend in the article is basically accurate, though I didn't see or experience everything mentioned. Out of context or not, it paints a general picture that's more accurate than not. I could have left if I wanted and felt no pressure to stay. I wanted to understand what they kept promising would be revealed. I didn't. Oh, and I didn't have my car. During my time of prolonged physical and psychological discomfort, I wondered if I would need therapy to recover from the weekend. Now, safe at home, I don't think I will. I came to the weekend with reasonable skills at knowing my limits, asking for what I want, and setting boundaries. Many men attend these type of events because they don't have these skills. Articles like this are difficult. It focuses on a few bad cases and then talks about a few good cases, like 50% like it and 50% don't, but that's not really the case. The problem is that the container that the MKP creates to do its work can't contain (or perhaps even recognize) the problems when they come up. They aren't set up for the exceptional situation. The MKP could be right for some men. It was not right for me. If it doesn't sound right to you, don't go. There's better stuff out there. I am discouraging most of my friends from going. (As a side note: what's pagan about being in the woods naked? It's like saying Christians like war.)
° ° °
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: DannyB II on September 12, 2010, 05:02:09 PM
duplicate
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: DannyB II on September 12, 2010, 05:04:49 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Sorry, Danny, hadn't meant to drive you over the brink. I was merely pointing out (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&start=75#p373993) that, despite your claims to the contrary, two mental health professionals HAD indeed been consulted and quoted in Chris Vogel's article re. the merits or demerits of Mankind Project's New Warrior Training Adventure.
Whether or not you or I or anyone else agrees or disagrees with what these two professionals said or even the veracity of their credentials ... is immaterial to your claim, and hence immaterial to my refutation of it.
Those concerns, thoughts, opinions, etc. are certainly up for discussion, however! :D
Sorry Chris Vogels, your main man for this article is loosing precious ground. It would have helped if you, would have done some investigation on your own. I'm thinking??? This gentlemen (Joey Johansen) covers the article pretty well, in my opinion anyway. Your professionals, have you been able to locate one yet, that even knows "MKP" exists. :)
Joey Johansen · 10/09/2007 8:43:19 PM
Derrick & Shelley wrote: On October 8, 2007 @ 08:24PM: After reading this article we strrongly believe that this group should be under further investigation. They are preying upon young men who have emotional and physical problems. They are going after easy targets,the ones who are despertly seeking help. Unfortunely a life was lost for this story to be made published. Justice will be served. Joey Johansen wrote: If you base your assumptions and judgments on one source of information, which several readers found to be quite biased, do you really believe you are on solid footing? Two "facts" in your comment are disputable: 1) The average age of MKP members is probably about 40, so it's a bit of a stretch to say that the organization "preys on young men." (Although I'm sure many of them would be flattered to be called young!) 2) None of the men who I know in MKP (six of them) had "emotional and physical problems" prior to participating in the MKP weekend--at least no more than any other average human being! You make it sound as if MKP members are lurking around homeless shelters, mental health facilities, and rehabs trying to recruit members! In addition, it is my understanding that many MKP members who are also recovering addicts/alcoholics recommend that a man have at least one year of sobriety/clean time before participating in the MKP weekend. Of course, a year of sobriety is no guarantee, as was unfortunately the case with Mr. Scinto, but it does suggest that MKP does *not* seek to exploit a man's vulnerability. They aren't stupid; they realize that if they accepted a bunch of guys with severe mental illness that they would open themselves up for criticism and lawsuits. That's why they screen applicants. As I said earlier, maybe they need to modify the screening procedure--I don't know--but to assume that they are exploiting men is way off base. However, I can see how you got that impression from Mr. Vogel's sensationalized, one-sided article.
Joey Johansen · 10/09/2007 9:17:48 PM
- Frances wrote: On October 8, 2007 @ 10:41PM: Despite the outcries in the comments, I found this article to be a balanced and focused look at a troubling event. Perhaps not all MKP events are like what Michael Scinto experienced, but even the smallest amount of oversight of the events could have prevented his death and gone a long way toward reassuring the public that the majority of MKP events are not as traumatic. Mr. Vogel's article revealed what can occur when organizations are permitted to operate in the dark, using secrecy, fear, and intimidation to reduce the conversation to whispers. Thank you Mr. Vogel for opening the door. Joey Johansen wrote: How do you know it was balanced? Have you talked with people who found the article to be very biased, to contain several errors, to have relied heavily on a discredited "cult expert," etc.? You also state, "... even the smallest amount of oversight of the events could have prevented his death ..." How do you know? I don't think you realize how difficult it is to evaluate and accurately predict if a person will commit suicide. The vast majority of people who have suicidal thoughts do not act on them. The vast majority of recovering alcoholics/addicts do not commit suicide. The vast majority of individuals suffering from depression do not commit suicide. It is true that each of those three factors increase the risk of suicide but even if a person possesses all three risk factors the odds are much, much greater that he will *not* commit suicide that that he will kill himself. Another way to look at this issue is if we involuntarily committed every person with suicidal thoughts, alcohol and other drug problems, and/or depression our nation's entire economy would come to a grinding halt because tens of millions of citizens would be locked up on psych wards. Given how difficult it is to evaluate and predict if a person will commit suicide, how can we expect an organization like MKP to determine with 100% accuracy who will and will not commit suicide after attending an MKP weekend? If we were to demand such a predictive accuracy, then shouldn't we expect if of all organizations? For example, shouldn't churches and other houses of worship be required to screen all people who attend their services or become members to determine their suicide risk? Now, I recognize that some of you will object to the comparison by stating that churches don't charge money for their services. That's true to a point, i.e., generally people aren't officially turned away because of a lack of donations. On the other hand, I don't know what your church is like but I don't know many church goers, myself included, who aren't frequently asked for money--from the pulpit, with the collection plate, from the fund raising committee, for the capital campaign, to benefit the scholarship fund, to support the national office, etc. So I'd hardly call churches "free!" Others might object to my comparison claiming that churches aren't a "personal growth organization" like MKP. My reply to that argument would be: "Really?" I thought that personal growth, of which spiritual/religious growth is a big part, was one of the main benefits of church involvement. It is for me and I think is for most sincere church members. (Of course, there are always the "see and be seen" crowd who dress to impress, drum up new business for themselves, pay lip service to the true meaning of their faith, and are non-stop gossips but that's thankfully the minority of religious persons.)
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Anne Bonney on September 13, 2010, 12:23:47 PM
My (very) weird weekend with the naked woodland warriors who travel to remote England to 'reclaim their masculinity'
By Tom Mitchelson Last updated at 1:53 AM on 13th March 2010
How our man found himself with 65 naked men chanting, drumming - and screaming their rage against women to 'reclaim' their lost masculinity...
The temperature has plunged to freezing. I am deep in a remote English woodland outside Exeter.
I have been blindfolded and I am standing, holding hands, with a long line of men - who, until about 24 hours ago, I'd never met before.
Together, we are stumbling through the scrub as beating tribal drums guide our way. Oh yes, and we are naked. Totally naked.
(http://http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/03/12/article-0-08B16A9E000005DC-706_468x366.jpg) Wild man: Tom Mitchelson embraces his inner warrior
Abruptly, my blindfold is ripped off and I see we have been led to a shadowy candle-lit room. There are about 65 of us in a double horseshoe formation.
This is a ceremony where we are to become 'new warriors'. And then the dancing begins.
I wish I were somewhere else. Anywhere else. So why on earth am I here?
I have signed up to the ManKind Project, an all-male group boasting 1,700 UK members that aims to release men's 'inner warrior' and reclaim their masculinity. I am about to graduate from their New Warrior training course.
It was launched in 1985 in the U.S. by a former marine, Rich Tosi, a therapist, Bill Kauth, and a university professor, Ron Hering, under the guise of providing 'educational services'.
They claim to be a not-for-profit company and nearly 40,000 men have attended their courses worldwide.
But things haven't been going well. Five years ago one of their recruits, Michael Scinto, made a complaint to the Madison County Sheriff in Texas that he'd been abused during a traumatic weekend with the project.
He subsequently committed suicide and his relatives filed a wrongful death lawsuit against the ManKind Project, which eventually settled out of court and claimed it would change certain of its practices.
I had also been tipped off by a number of concerned wives - who'd noticed disturbing changes in their husbands' behaviour since attending one of ManKind's UK weekends away.
(http://http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/03/12/article-0-08B184EB000005DC-418_468x514.jpg) Tom signed up to the ManKind Project, an all-male group boasting 1,700 UK members that aims to release men's 'inner warrior' and reclaim their masculinity
My aim is to go undercover to find out just how serious these allegations against them are - or whether they're just a bunch of misguided men who need a break from their women.
My first experience of the organisation is not pleasant. After signing up online to attend their initiation weekend, I am sent an intimidating amount of paperwork - including a confidentiality agreement. Of course, they have no idea I'm a journalist, and it's costing me £500 for the privilege.
Everything I read from them is baffling non-speak. They claim the weekend is a 'process of initiation and self-examination that is crucial to the development of a healthy and mature male self'.
They claim they help move men away from the 'comforting embrace' of their mother - something, on the face of it, some wives might even encourage. Then I am told I will 'confront' my 'dependence on women', to help me move into the 'masculine kingdom'.
To be honest, it all sounds absolutely ludicrous. But nothing as ludicrous as what I discover when I arrive at the training centre in the West Country.
As I enter, I am asked to line up with my fellow recruits and we are ordered to 'observe the sacred silence'.
This is all before we've been shown to where we're staying. It's all rather bizarre, as they begin a strange game where I am asked to walk up to a man who stares at me, with black camouflage paint on his face. The process is repeated again, and again.
They claim they help move men away from the 'comforting embrace' of their mother - something, on the face of it, some wives might even encourage
Then I am ordered into a Dutch barn, where yet another confidentiality agreement is thrust in front of me, forbidding me to mention anything that happens over the weekend.
They seem to have a paranoid fear of anything getting out. This, I suppose, should have set even more alarm bells ringing.
Next, I am shouted at to hand over all the food I've been ordered to bring - any food, but enough for three men. I feel as if I'm on a military boot camp, although I suspect most of the participants are really just accountants from Slough.
We are all told that we are on a 'journey' and we 'will never be the same again'. Then we are led into a darkened room, where more people shout random words at us.
I seem to have wondered into a Marx Brothers film, but without the laughs.
The unnamed men, dressed in black with their black face paint, want me to hand over my mobile phone, watch, books and food. I do, but I am subjected to a complete search of my bag and my body.
They discover half a bottle of rum, notebook and pen. The faux commando is livid. He shrieks: 'Do you have problems following orders?' I nod guiltily, stunning him into silence.
We are directed to another dark room, where all the new recruits and I sit for more than an hour. In silence. At this point, I'm just wondering what on earth is going to happen next.
Suddenly, three men burst in, give me a bandana for a blindfold and take me to a place where drums are beating. I remove the blindfold to see I am surrounded by what I can only describe as the Men In Black.
(http://http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/03/12/article-0-08B16BC7000005DC-543_468x419.jpg) Many of the men in the group talk about their relationships, work and feelings of anger and regret
A leader holding a wooden staff decorated with feathers rambles on about the mission of the weekend, using the pompous jargon that would later become very familiar: words like 'shadow', 'warriors', 'masculine', 'commitment' and 'responsibility'.
He tells us how to be a man. It's hard to take from a man wearing face paint, carrying a feathered stick.
Having finished his speech, he calls upon men at random to stand up and explain why they were there. Hard to say why, but people are starting to open their hearts.
One man cries as he answers questions about his unhappy marriage. The guards stand in a threatening circle around us, staring aggressively in silence.
I am starting to feel very uncomfortable. When I signed up for the course, they told me I couldn't drive there because there was a shortage of car-parking spaces.
Instead, I was told I should join the others on their minibus to travel several miles from the station, so it is with a sinking feeling that I realise I am stranded.
Many of the men talk about their relationships, work and feelings of anger and regret. 'Sharing', they call it. They all appeared sincere and open. Not buttoned up and repressed, but here-it-is, take-it-all, heart-on-my-sleeve types.
It is here that I learn a piece of warrior etiquette. When a brother 'shares', the correct response is to raise both hands as if surrendering and waggle your hands. At the same time, you say ' Ahho'. At first, I mishear and say 'Ahoy'.
Until the early hours of the morning, we engage in a series of exercises. I have to tell one man what makes me a man, and then wait while he tells me what makes him one, too. We are asked to describe how we fail to stand up to women.
(http://http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/03/12/article-0-08B1792E000005DC-918_233x423.jpg) When Tom signed up for the course, they told him he couldn't drive there because there was a shortage of car-parking spaces
'They're always getting at you to put the seat down on the loo,' one of the staff men explains by way of example. For a supposed female reign of terror, this seems a weirdly banal example.
We are told to explain to each other what type of man we are. One of my 'brothers' tells me he is a liar and cheat. I suspect he means he has had affairs.
Another tells how he feels worthless, a third man explains he doesn't know how to control his anger, and another tells me his wife won't let him ride his bike.
It's not long before the blindfold is back on and we are asked to imagine we're in an African village. To assist this illusion, the Men In Black rattle pots, flick water at us and make vocal noises to represent a bustling settlement.
It's not entirely convincing. We are asked to imagine capturing a wild man who terrorises villagers and cage him. We then have to set him free.
We have been asked to visualise meeting an animal along the way. This becomes our 'warrior' name. And I spend the rest of the time with Mighty Condor, Courageous Wolf and Intrepid Panther.
It is odd that no one opts for a sheep, wombat or guinea pig. I, however, become Relaxed Penguin. Oh Lord. Now I've written that, they can identify their Judas.
It's very late. I am tired and hungry and even my sleeping bag in a freezing yurt with strangers seems attractive. It's not. I don't sleep because, a couple of hours later, the rhythmic banging of drums begins.
A man appears at the door: 'Men, we have work to do.' We are ordered to strip and line up for a cold shower. While each man steps under the water, the others watch and count to 60.
I manage to get a few words with some of the participants and they are mostly between the ages of 35 and 45.
They are not all - as I'd supposed - saddos. They work in careers such as banking, IT, education and business and all strike me as intelligent, articulate and enthusiastic about their participation in the project. The majority seem to feel that their lives are not going as they wish.
After breakfast (a handful of nuts and a spoonful of porridge) we spend the morning sharing how we feel. We roar like lions. We talk to our childhood selves and watch the staff men act out scenes such as where one man says yes and the other says no.
Over and over. It was like watching a section of a Pinter play performed by nine-year-olds.
Then it is time for what I found one of the most disturbing parts of the weekend - where we are effectively 'broken free' of our emotional past.
We are divided into three groups, each of which has a so-called 'sacred carpet', and for about an hour each man is subjected to emotionally manipulative questioning, on the carpet, that probes into his past.
Some of the staff are very skilled at reading visual signs of hidden emotion. At times, three inquisitors demand the answers to questions that eventually leave a man weeping and apparently broken.
This is happening simultaneously on all three mats. At times, it is impossible to hear what was happening on my own mat because of the wails and screams from the other groups. I feel as if I'm on a military boot camp, although I suspect most of the participants are really just accountants from Slough
The majority of the men who participate in this spectacle positively welcome this treatment. Others appear less keen. The objective seems to be to provoke a violent reaction from the person in the circle.
One man of about 40 has an issue with his mother. He felt she had treated him badly when he was younger.
A staff man is chosen to represent the mother and, while other men stand in front of him, he is goaded to confront her by pushing through a human barrier.
Instead, he flies into an uncontrolled rage. Staff become panicked and shout 'safety' as they try to immobilise him. If these staff men have any professional training, I am unaware of it.
The qualification they seem to share is that they are graduates of the course I am now on. ManKind deny that any therapy takes place. They call it training.
Another man sobs as he is told to act out beating his stepfather and mother to death. Again, he feels that they ignored him as a child and treated him with disdain.
A third man is pinned to the floor by six men and has to wrestle his way out from under a blanket, cheered on by the watching men. It is extremely disturbing to watch.
Many of the men seem to feel they suffered mental or physical abuse from their parents. They all appear to be functioning in day-to-day life, but these horrors appear easily released under the persistent and intimate questioning of their inquisitors.
I make up a story about feeling guilty for hurting a former girlfriend. I give no specific examples, but feign deep upset. They suggest my behaviour had started in childhood. I tell them it hadn't.
(http://http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/03/12/article-0-08B168D5000005DC-871_468x389.jpg) Deprived of food and sleep and subjected to the raging emotions of people around him, Tom is instructed to strip, put his blindfold back on and hold the hand of the man next to him
They talk of regressing me. I don't know if these amateur psychiatrists could achieve that or not, but they opt for getting me to wrench the guilt from my stomach by wrestling a rope up through my legs being held by four men.
Most of the men I speak to afterwards seem delighted by this experience. In fact, this is a point at which some men seem to embrace the Warrior Brotherhood.
To me it seems like a way of initiating people into a kind of cult. This session is clearly designed to be the pivotal moment in the weekend.
Now comes the time when we are awarded our warrior's insignia.
Deprived of food and sleep and subjected to the raging emotions of people around me, I am instructed to strip, put my blindfold back on and hold the hand of the man next to me.
It is now we begin the walk in the woods that leads to that candle-lit ceremony where we become New Warriors.
As I am led, blindfolded, naked and freezing, I am strangely resigned to this new, weird way of life. The other men in the group are all relaxed about such a journey.
In the candle-lit room, we are led by hand around the circle of men. Our animal names are called and all the men cheer.
With horribly vivid images playing in my mind of pot-bellies, male genitalia and saggy bums, I return to my yurt and sleep for a couple of hours. The cult-like intensity with which some of my fellow warriors converted to the brotherhood astonished me
Morning arrives and, after standing in a field 'reclaiming my paternal name', we begin 'sharing' again.
At this point, we're sprayed with burning sage and instructed - naked again - to get in the sweat lodge. This is a tent heated by burning coals.
It is pitch black inside and we are told to shout blessings, make noise, howl, quote poems and sing songs. We are finally given a meal consisting of the food we brought, and then we say our goodbyes by silently staring at each staff man.
The participants hug one another and proclaim their love to their fellow brothers. They give blessings and thank each other for the 'strength' and 'joy' they have received.
I get home and close the door behind me. I have never felt so relieved to be back in the real world. It takes me two full days to get the strange mantras and patterns of speech out of my head.
The overriding message of the course seemed confused: That we were suppressed warriors and had become emasculated; that we had to reconnect with the wild man; and to get in touch with our feelings. It was 21st-century New Age meets Neanderthal man.
The cult-like intensity with which some of my fellow warriors converted to the brotherhood astonished me.
I had been given a chilling lesson in how easily - and how fast - the kind of men I rub shoulders with every day can alter: can become aggressive and subservient by turns; and gripped by something strange.
And something else shocked me. This was an organisation that aimed to tell me how to be a man.
Yet not once during that weird and frightening weekend did I ever hear it acknowledged that we men share a world. With women.
Well, thanks but I didn't "report" on it. Tom Michelson did, hence the pictures of him. I thought it was pretty funny and informative.
Title: Relaxed Penguin
Post by: Ursus on September 13, 2010, 01:46:49 PM
Quote from: "Tom Mitchelson of the Daily Mail"
We have been asked to visualise meeting an animal along the way. This becomes our 'warrior' name. And I spend the rest of the time with Mighty Condor, Courageous Wolf and Intrepid Panther.
It is odd that no one opts for a sheep, wombat or guinea pig. I, however, become Relaxed Penguin. Oh Lord. Now I've written that, they can identify their Judas.
Well, thanks but I didn't "report" on it. Tom Michelson did, hence the pictures of him. I thought it was pretty funny and informative.
I knew that, it was my attempt at being humorous with you.
Title: Re: Relaxed Penguin
Post by: DannyB II on September 13, 2010, 02:13:27 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Tom Mitchelson of the Daily Mail"
We have been asked to visualise meeting an animal along the way. This becomes our 'warrior' name. And I spend the rest of the time with Mighty Condor, Courageous Wolf and Intrepid Panther.
It is odd that no one opts for a sheep, wombat or guinea pig. I, however, become Relaxed Penguin. Oh Lord. Now I've written that, they can identify their Judas.
Title: Re: Relaxed Penguin
Post by: Anne Bonney on September 13, 2010, 02:20:17 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Tom Mitchelson of the Daily Mail"
We have been asked to visualise meeting an animal along the way. This becomes our 'warrior' name. And I spend the rest of the time with Mighty Condor, Courageous Wolf and Intrepid Panther.
It is odd that no one opts for a sheep, wombat or guinea pig. I, however, become Relaxed Penguin. Oh Lord. Now I've written that, they can identify their Judas.
Title: Comments for "My (very) weird weekend with..."
Post by: Ursus on September 15, 2010, 10:28:33 AM
Comments (http://http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1257607/Tom-Mitchelsons-weird-weekend-naked-woodland-warriors.html#ixzz0zQWWIQOx) left for the above article, "My (very) weird weekend with the naked woodland warriors who travel to remote England to 'reclaim their masculinity' (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&p=379173#p378746) " (by Tom Mitchelson, 13th March 2010, Daily Mail):
- Curt, Washington, DC, 12/3/2010 17:26
I do not mean to be rude, but the professional photoshoot you arranged to add 'flavor' to this article seems to indicate your own overly-active need for attention. It's unfortunate that you used an organization and the deep personal sharing of other men as a way to shine a spotlight on yourself and your poses.
It's not a cult. It's not even cult-ish. Despite whatever travel arrangements caused you to feel confined - no man is ever prohibited from leaving at any time. And no man is forced to do anything he does not wish to do.
I am as skeptical of cults as anyone I know, and am not one to join flocks of like-minded people. Yet a few days spent with this group provided me with some great insights, and the basis for some wonderful friendships that exist years later.
And most of all - there is not one moment of this process that is directed toward hatred of women. If men come to the weekend due to issues with women in their lives, that is what they bring to the process.
- antipolitician, Eastbourne, UK, 12/3/2010 23:58
I go archery field shooting at the weekends, now that is demanding
That to me, is much better than standing around naked, with a bunch of nutters who don't seem to know their a**e from their elbow.
Oh and by the way, women also do field archery, and they are great company.
- Annti, New Orleans, LA USA, 13/3/2010 1:14
Well said!
That's one thing that I've never understood about the feminist-backlash "pro-male" so-called "movement": why does it have to be AGAINST women?
One of the commercial radio stations in NOLA used to have "testicle festival," which basically consisted of a month of anti-woman sweepers (promo blurbs), pathetically-juvenile "jokes," and more crap about how "bad" women are and ergo, how "superior" men are to us.
How in the HELL does this make men feel better about themselves? Other than schoolyard bullies, of course... If differentiation from parental units is a healthy step in psychological development, why does (hetero) man need to oppress woman in order to "be" a so-called "man"? Not that gay men can't be sexist piglets, believe me, some consider women to be a SUB-species.
(character limit, despite having 160 characters left, demands a continuation.)
- Annti, New Orleans, LA USA, 13/3/2010 1:19
Part 2:
When (smarter) women threw off the yoke of approx. 6,000 years of patriarchal oppression, it was real, political, social and emotional. What yokes do men have to shed, really?
Really. Besides nuns.
If being in a relationship with a woman is such a hardship, then why not stay single and bitch less? Or, if women TRULY "oppress" a man, why doesn't he just stick to guys?
- Annti, New Orleans, LA USA, 13/3/2010 1:20
Last attempt: Part 3:
On this side of the Atlantic, the utterly fear-driven megalomania of sexism/objectification/recidivism/etc. is beyond pathetic. Women are meat, servants, possessions, and of course, if they're women who REJECT men, then they are EVIL, CASTRATING WITCH-LESBIANS (like the last part is an actual INSULT...) who seek to "DESTROY THE AMERICAN NUCLEAR FAMILY AND ALL THAT IS GOOD IN THE WORLD."
"It was like watching a section of a Pinter play performed by nine-year-olds."
Yep, but I think you should have said "5 year-olds". These days are simply designed to wear down & destroy any last vestige of masculinity that has escaped from Feminism, Political Correctness, and New Tories. Men now see being male as something to be laughed at and these courses play to that, BIG TIME.
It's time to recover the quiet masculinity and the cheery heroism that was evident on the beaches at Normandy, something the instructors of this Yuppie idiocy would never be able to accomplish.
- Charles, London, 13/3/2010 1:50
What a bunch of plonkers ...."new warriors " my A$%* .
I doubt they had "lost " their masculinity....i just doubt they had much of it in the first place.
BUT..i will admit i laughed my socks of while reading this...its just a shame that so many men feel "emasculated" these days........no wonder women are acting stronger daily....they have no choice.
- debbie, lincs, 13/3/2010 2:16
Blimey!! £500 just to be led by they hand naked around a wood, not fed for a few hours and ordered to make animal noises?? ...I could do that for half the price mate!! LOL
- Frenchiegirl, France, 13/3/2010 2:48
So the reporter paid £500 for all this rubbish, just for weekend ? Next time, dear, treat yourself to a decent hotel, en suite bathroom and some decent grub. Did any of the men learn anything ? I think not !
- imod, finland, 13/3/2010 2:49
anyone ever read the book Iron John
- Mark, Bath, 13/3/2010 3:03
Dissappointing article, it seems that Tom went on this weekend with the firm intent to 'expose' and therefore had bias preconceptions even before he started the registration process. If men want to go on these weekends then why cant they, we still to my knowledge live in a free society. If you look at the press and more often TV advertising, you will see countless examples of men being made to look pathetic, apparently we are unable to wash clothes or dishes and all we do is sit on the sofa watching football and drinking beer. A handful of nuts and a spoonful of porridge for breakfast, are we expected to take the author seriously. You can see he stereotyped the other paticipants as saddos, that is until he actually did some fact finding and found they are normal men. Please could we find out about the disturbing changes in men after they had attended these courses, its strange that this isnt mentioned in more detail. Can we just all agree to equality between the sexes?
- Anita, Chiavari, Italy, 13/3/2010 3:16
Good looking and intelligent! I enjoyed this article especially after having read a wife's point of view some weeks ago. If a man, to be a man, needs to alienate himself from the women in their lives, I wonder what men they are?
- Pained., North London, 13/3/2010 3:42
A valiant attempt to poke fun and laugh at this group but to be honest with you, I'm still not convinced by your story. I can see exactly how this can be of help to so many men who have been conditioned by society not to display inner emotions and feelings. We have also been hurt, emotionally as well as physically, as children and carry the scars of this with us throughout our lives.
A little help to heal a inner child cant hurt can it...?
- DG, Cheltenham, 13/3/2010 3:47
Don't tell "Harriet Harperson" -she will have it banned!
- Tez, Leominster, Herefordshire, 13/3/2010 4:10
Sounds ridiculous.
- Liz, Bristol-ish, 13/3/2010 4:40
Oh dear. This sounds a lot like EST or one of the wackier American 'male bonding' groups - break you down and build you back up again. I've attended analogous events for women and a couple have been very helpful and genuinely supportive and some have just been cringe-making.
My partner, who abhors drumming as a nasty hippy practice, occasionally gets in touch with his inner masculine - with a chainsaw in the garden. I'm quite happy to be a total girl and stand by passing him bits of equipment. If there are any accountants out there who feel the need to contact their inner warrior, there's plenty to do in the actual countryside without changing your name to Languid Baboon or whatever!
- Barry watson, Westerham Kent, 13/3/2010 4:56
There are a few nutters out there. Better to keep 'em in the woods.
- Richard Christian de Meath, Bournemouth, England, 13/3/2010 5:01
Sounds just like the boy scouts on a commando weekend!
- Madeline, Guildford, England, 13/3/2010 5:03
Classic cultic brainwashing - deprivation of sleep, food, personal objects, any form of escape. Constant drums, being yelled at, being controlled in apparently random fashion. They've got the indoctrination techniques down pat. I'd be much, much more worried, though, if the writer couldn't account for every waking minute - are there periods of time he simply couldn't remember?
It's like the beginning of a horror movie, where men take part in these apparently loony-but-harmless weekends, and then someone puts out a key phrase or word... and they all turn on the women, foaming and glassy-eyed, screaming their animal names and ...
Yeah, I have a vivid imagination.
- DG, Cheltenham, 13/3/2010 5:07
Yet not once during that weird and frightening weekend did I ever hear it acknowledged that we men share a world. With women.
I expect that is no different to similar courses for "Wimin"-except to denigrate men and blame them for everything, of course!
- Claire, Derry, 13/3/2010 5:25
There is really enough rage within many men against women, for no reason whatsoever other than the inadequacy they feel inside themselves, that it is totally wrong to encourage even more. Surely it would be much better if these men were taught how to love and cherish their partners while being assertive in a safe, healthy way?
This weekend sounds like nothing more than a blatant rip-off of vulnerable men.
- John, London, UK, 13/3/2010 5:34
Umm, isn't t easier (and rather more dignified) to join the local golf/bowls/fishing/whatever club?
- Ruth, Surrey, 13/3/2010 5:54
Men are sooooo weird!
- munchkin, dublin, 13/3/2010 6:23
Sounds great. How do I sign up?
- ron, london, 13/3/2010 6:25
Isn't this how feminism started. The last line is what feminists believe about women. They believe men are the opposition. It was only about time men realised that they were indeed getting emasculated.
Title: Re: Relaxed Penguin
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 12, 2010, 12:58:50 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Tom Mitchelson of the Daily Mail"
We have been asked to visualise meeting an animal along the way. This becomes our 'warrior' name. And I spend the rest of the time with Mighty Condor, Courageous Wolf and Intrepid Panther.
It is odd that no one opts for a sheep, wombat or guinea pig. I, however, become Relaxed Penguin. Oh Lord. Now I've written that, they can identify their Judas.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Inculcated on October 12, 2010, 01:18:59 PM
Tom Mitchelson wrote : “Over and over. It was like watching a section of a Pinter play performed by nine-year-olds” (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=378746#p378746) :rofl:
Title: Re: Cover Story: The ManKind Project
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 12, 2010, 01:57:36 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
One of the problems for me is that -- for all intents and purposes -- they are conducting therapy without a license, and certainly without training or professional constraints and accountabilities. Come to think of it, that is exactly what Hyde does as well.
Yup and they get away with it the same way programs do.....they just call it something different. In this case (NWT), it's "training", not "therapy".
Quote from: "Ursus"
Ahh. Thanks for that bump.
I had planned to post the Michael Scinto story here, but apparently never got around to it. Scinto participated in the New Warrior Training Adventure put on by the Mankind Project, and then committed suicide not too long after. The Houston Press did a story on this, along with a cover story / blog summarizing some of the pertinent details. Here's that cover story:
-------------- • -------------- • --------------
Houston Press Blogs Cover Story: The ManKind Project (http://http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs/2007/10/cover_story_the_mankind_projec.php) By Chris Vogel, Wednesday, Oct. 3 2007 @ 2:01PM
I never noticed the phallic nature of that, ummmm, "stick" that the naked me are holding onto so tightly!
:rofl:
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 12, 2010, 02:07:38 PM
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Jeesh you also failed to reveal that Michael Scinto was a drug addict, was in AA and continued to use.
So, apparently neither NWT (LGATs) nor Stepcraft had any success wrt to Mr. Scinto.
Edited to add:
Why am I not surprised? ::)
Quote from: "Ursus"
IN FACT, since ya are hell-bent on introducing it into the conversation, that Michael Scinto had experienced difficulties with drug abuse prior to his weekend with the MKP folk, that he was introduced to MKP and exhorted to attend the NWTA via his AA sponsor Kim Sawyer, not to mention was pressured to share with the group and expose his soul by Sawyer re. childhood sexual abuse within the rubric of MKP ... all serves to underscore the egregious lack of professionalism of MKP as well as to HIGHLIGHT the very concerns the mental health professionals that I quoted spoke of. From the above article (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&start=75#p373876):
"According to the police report, Sawyer said that during the retreat Scinto told him about the abuse. It was then that Sawyer told Scinto it would be best to share his recently unearthed memory with the group. Sawyer also told Scinto there was a licensed psychologist on hand that could help him if he wished."
[/size] Where was this "licensed psychologist" and what the hell did he do for Michael Scinto, as far as helping him deal with dredging up these old and festering wounds? It was after Micheal Scinto's New Warrior Training Adventure, and apparently in response to what it unleashed, that he went off the deep end, ultimately blowing out his brains with a shotgun.
Title: Re: Comments for "My (very) weird weekend with..."
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 12, 2010, 02:14:10 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Comments (http://http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1257607/Tom-Mitchelsons-weird-weekend-naked-woodland-warriors.html#ixzz0zQWWIQOx) left for the above article, "My (very) weird weekend with the naked woodland warriors who travel to remote England to 'reclaim their masculinity' (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&p=379173#p378746) " (by Tom Mitchelson, 13th March 2010, Daily Mail):
- Anita, Chiavari, Italy, 13/3/2010 3:16
Good looking and intelligent!
I enjoyed this article especially after having read a wife's point of view some weeks ago. If a man, to be a man, needs to alienate himself from the women in their lives, I wonder what men they are?[/list]
Ursus, do you have this? I can't find it.
Title: Re: Cover Story: The ManKind Project
Post by: Ursus on October 12, 2010, 03:35:43 PM
I never noticed the phallic nature of that, ummmm, "stick" that the naked me are holding onto so tightly!
:rofl:
Yup. :nods: That's pretty much what it looks like, from what I've been told, though I suppose — theoretically speaking, of course — that there may be some variations in size depending on which branch of MPK ya choose to participate with... !
Title: Re: Cover Story: The ManKind Project
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 13, 2010, 09:38:00 AM
I never noticed the phallic nature of that, ummmm, "stick" that the naked me are holding onto so tightly!
:rofl:
Yup. :nods: That's pretty much what it looks like, from what I've been told, though I suppose — theoretically speaking, of course — that there may be some variations in size depending on which branch of MPK ya choose to participate with... !
Why is the other guy talking if the guy in the foreground has the, ummm....."stick"? What is the significance of the "stick" anyway?
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Ursus on October 14, 2010, 01:13:02 AM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Why is the other guy talking if the guy in the foreground has the, ummm....."stick"? What is the significance of the "stick" anyway?
The stick is known as the "Cock," and the experiential exercise in which they all sit naked in a circle and share stories and whatnot, is known as "Cock Talk." The guy holding the Cock has the floor; he's telling his story.
I'm not sure why the pic shows someone speaking other than the guy holding the Cock. Perhaps they are speaking out of turn, or responding to his story...
Title: Re: Comments for "My (very) weird weekend with..."
Post by: Ursus on October 14, 2010, 01:17:58 AM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Comments (http://http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1257607/Tom-Mitchelsons-weird-weekend-naked-woodland-warriors.html#ixzz0zQWWIQOx) left for the above article, "My (very) weird weekend with the naked woodland warriors who travel to remote England to 'reclaim their masculinity' (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&p=379173#p378746) " (by Tom Mitchelson, 13th March 2010, Daily Mail):
- Anita, Chiavari, Italy, 13/3/2010 3:16
Good looking and intelligent!
I enjoyed this article especially after having read a wife's point of view some weeks ago. If a man, to be a man, needs to alienate himself from the women in their lives, I wonder what men they are?[/list]
Ursus, do you have this? I can't find it.
I haven't come across it yet. Fwiw, it doesn't appear to have been published in the Daily Mail. A search of their website turned up nothing.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 14, 2010, 09:17:57 AM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Why is the other guy talking if the guy in the foreground has the, ummm....."stick"? What is the significance of the "stick" anyway?
The stick is known as the "Cock," and the experiential exercise in which they all sit naked in a circle and share stories and whatnot, is known as "Cock Talk." The guy holding the Cock has the floor; he's telling his story. :eek:
I'm not sure why the pic shows someone speaking other than the guy holding the Cock. Perhaps they are speaking out of turn, or responding to his story...
Are you serious or having some fun with this? That's really what they call it?
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: DannyB II on October 14, 2010, 04:16:01 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Why is the other guy talking if the guy in the foreground has the, ummm....."stick"? What is the significance of the "stick" anyway?
The stick is known as the "Cock," and the experiential exercise in which they all sit naked in a circle and share stories and whatnot, is known as "Cock Talk." The guy holding the Cock has the floor; he's telling his story.
I'm not sure why the pic shows someone speaking other than the guy holding the Cock. Perhaps they are speaking out of turn, or responding to his story...
Ya know, I thought of interjecting here to make corrections but I chose not too. I wanted this documented so all can see. Thanks, Ursus and Anne, for your tireless efforts advocating for the adults mislead by MKP. This post here, will definitely go a long way towards identifying exactly who you two are and where you gather your information and the content of your information. The audience is simply dumbfounded by your brilliance.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Ursus on October 14, 2010, 11:09:59 PM
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Why is the other guy talking if the guy in the foreground has the, ummm....."stick"? What is the significance of the "stick" anyway?
The stick is known as the "Cock," and the experiential exercise in which they all sit naked in a circle and share stories and whatnot, is known as "Cock Talk." The guy holding the Cock has the floor; he's telling his story.
I'm not sure why the pic shows someone speaking other than the guy holding the Cock. Perhaps they are speaking out of turn, or responding to his story...
Ya know, I thought of interjecting here to make corrections but I chose not too. I wanted this documented so all can see. Thanks, Ursus and Anne, for your tireless efforts advocating for the adults mislead by MKP. This post here, will definitely go a long way towards identifying exactly who you two are and where you gather your information and the content of your information. The audience is simply dumbfounded by your brilliance.
Lessee... you thought of "interjecting"... but chose not to... but then ya did it anyway. Should I be surprised?
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: DannyB II on October 14, 2010, 11:50:02 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Why is the other guy talking if the guy in the foreground has the, ummm....."stick"? What is the significance of the "stick" anyway?
The stick is known as the "Cock," and the experiential exercise in which they all sit naked in a circle and share stories and whatnot, is known as "Cock Talk." The guy holding the Cock has the floor; he's telling his story.
I'm not sure why the pic shows someone speaking other than the guy holding the Cock. Perhaps they are speaking out of turn, or responding to his story...
Ya know, I thought of interjecting here to make corrections but I chose not too. I wanted this documented so all can see. Thanks, Ursus and Anne, for your tireless efforts advocating for the adults mislead by MKP. This post here, will definitely go a long way towards identifying exactly who you two are and where you gather your information and the content of your information. The audience is simply dumbfounded by your brilliance.
Lessee... you thought of "interjecting"... but chose not to... but then ya did it anyway. Should I be surprised?
Well great then were both in the same "lifeboat" because you never surprise me either. Who is dying first.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Ursus on October 14, 2010, 11:54:56 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Why is the other guy talking if the guy in the foreground has the, ummm....."stick"? What is the significance of the "stick" anyway?
The stick is known as the "Cock," and the experiential exercise in which they all sit naked in a circle and share stories and whatnot, is known as "Cock Talk." The guy holding the Cock has the floor; he's telling his story. :eek:
I'm not sure why the pic shows someone speaking other than the guy holding the Cock. Perhaps they are speaking out of turn, or responding to his story...
Are you serious or having some fun with this? That's really what they call it?
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Ya know, I thought of interjecting here to make corrections but I chose not too.
I'm not funnin' ya, Anne. That's really what they call it.
Danny, I imagine this must be painful for you...
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: DannyB II on October 15, 2010, 12:01:23 AM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Why is the other guy talking if the guy in the foreground has the, ummm....."stick"? What is the significance of the "stick" anyway?
The stick is known as the "Cock," and the experiential exercise in which they all sit naked in a circle and share stories and whatnot, is known as "Cock Talk." The guy holding the Cock has the floor; he's telling his story. :eek:
I'm not sure why the pic shows someone speaking other than the guy holding the Cock. Perhaps they are speaking out of turn, or responding to his story...
Are you serious or having some fun with this? That's really what they call it?
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Ya know, I thought of interjecting here to make corrections but I chose not too.
I'm not funnin' ya, Anne. That's really what they call it.
Danny, I imagine this must be painful for you...
This is why posts get thrown into offa because folks like yourself can not maintain a serious conversation. You obviously have no idea what your talking about here, I have tried to help you understand what happens during certain rituals of the MKP weekend but you seem to always want to turn it into a attacking contest or make fun of me. Ursus, grow up.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 15, 2010, 09:35:48 AM
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Why is the other guy talking if the guy in the foreground has the, ummm....."stick"? What is the significance of the "stick" anyway?
The stick is known as the "Cock," and the experiential exercise in which they all sit naked in a circle and share stories and whatnot, is known as "Cock Talk." The guy holding the Cock has the floor; he's telling his story. :eek:
I'm not sure why the pic shows someone speaking other than the guy holding the Cock. Perhaps they are speaking out of turn, or responding to his story...
Are you serious or having some fun with this? That's really what they call it?
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Ya know, I thought of interjecting here to make corrections but I chose not too.
I'm not funnin' ya, Anne. That's really what they call it.
Danny, I imagine this must be painful for you...
This is why posts get thrown into offa because folks like yourself can not maintain a serious conversation. You obviously have no idea what your talking about here, I have tried to help you understand what happens during certain rituals of the MKP weekend but you seem to always want to turn it into a attacking contest or make fun of me. Ursus, grow up.
So are you saying that the statement below is not true?
The stick is known as the "Cock," and the experiential exercise in which they all sit naked in a circle and share stories and whatnot, is known as "Cock Talk." The guy holding the Cock has the floor; he's telling his story.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 15, 2010, 09:41:21 AM
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Why is the other guy talking if the guy in the foreground has the, ummm....."stick"? What is the significance of the "stick" anyway?
The stick is known as the "Cock," and the experiential exercise in which they all sit naked in a circle and share stories and whatnot, is known as "Cock Talk." The guy holding the Cock has the floor; he's telling his story.
I'm not sure why the pic shows someone speaking other than the guy holding the Cock. Perhaps they are speaking out of turn, or responding to his story...
Ya know, I thought of interjecting here to make corrections but I chose not too. I wanted this documented so all can see. Thanks, Ursus and Anne, for your tireless efforts advocating for the adults mislead by MKP. This post here, will definitely go a long way towards identifying exactly who you two are and where you gather your information and the content of your information. The audience is simply dumbfounded by your brilliance.
Lessee... you thought of "interjecting"... but chose not to... but then ya did it anyway. Should I be surprised?
Well great then were both in the same "lifeboat" because you never surprise me either. Who is dying first.
Hmm, I don't recall Ursus saying that he wasn't going to talk about this topic and then continue to talk about it anyway. He's, from what I've seen, simply been posting articles and the comments from those articles. You don't like that people aren't falling for this wannabe guru's brand of bullshit, so you retaliate. And you can't seem to carry on a conversation without using or referencing whatever the latest cultspeak it is that you're either into or have been thru. I wonder how many "lifeboats" you've been thrown out of?
I think this topic is absolutely relevant to the TTI in general as they seem to use a lot of the same methods that the TTI does (some form of LGATs mainly). It's pretty much the same wannabe guru, newage bullshit, wrapped up in a different package. Those places are fine for adults like DannyBoi who can't seem to live their lives without some wannabe guru telling them how and what to think, but I don't think it's appropriate for kids.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Ursus on October 15, 2010, 12:08:26 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
I think this topic is absolutely relevant to the TTI in general as they seem to use a lot of the same methods that the TTI does (some form of LGATs mainly). It's pretty much the same wannabe guru, newage bullshit, wrapped up in a different package.
Well... as far as Hyde School is concerned, it's not only absolutely but directly relevant. A number of faculty and/or administrators, as well as a number of former parents and alumni, have been involved in the Mankind Project.
In fact, the former National Hyde Alumni and Parent Association (HAPA) Coordinator (along with his wife) was/is very much involved in MKP. Lee Mortenson and his wife, Carol Kirkland, have also previously provided couples and family therapy for folk in association with Hyde's FLC weekends (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677#p307987) (ya gotta pay extra), in addition to same at their Potomac, Maryland, location (http://http://www.hapaonline.org/relationship-workshops).
From Lee Mortenson's brief bio (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&p=308089#p308089), emphasis added:
...While his professional career was externally rewarding, his personal life lead him to deeper introspection and on an entirely different journey. By the early 1990's, Lee had been married and divorced three times. While he had all of the standard signs of "success", he was depressed and recognized that he was a party to all of the "failures" of his marriages. His successes didn't seem to "feed" him in any meaningful way.
At first, Lee sought professional help, then was involved in a number of local and national Men's groups, attending the New Warriors weekend initiation adventure in 1992 and, in the late 1980's and early 1990's, managed several regional gatherings of men at Buffalo Gap, West Virginia. Each of these experiences helped him to understand a little more about his inner issues, and when he began a new relationship with Carol, he decided it was time to dig deeper. This lead to a decade long involvement with Doug and Naomi Moseley, two teachers who focus on relationships to others and to yourself. Over the past decade, Lee moved from an occasional workshop attendee to an interest in assisting in Intimacy Training. In 2003 he began a four-year apprenticeship with the Moseleys, working with clients and groups. In 2008, he and Carol join the Moseley training staff, assisting with some of the week-long trainings in Taos, NM, in addition to their practice in Maryland.[/list][/size] This 'Intimacy Training' (aka 'The Moseley Method') appears to be the basis of the relationship workshops that Mortenson and Kirkland offer to HAPA members via Hyde School. It also, incidentally, appears to be connected in some way with the Mankind Project. All of the men involved in the "web ring" of partners/affiliates (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&p=308342#p308342) that are noted on Mortenson/Kirkland's website (http://http://www.relationshiptraining.net) ... have been involved in some way or another with the Mankind Project.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 15, 2010, 12:43:09 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
I think this topic is absolutely relevant to the TTI in general as they seem to use a lot of the same methods that the TTI does (some form of LGATs mainly). It's pretty much the same wannabe guru, newage bullshit, wrapped up in a different package.
Well... as far as Hyde School is concerned, it's not only absolutely but directly relevant. A number of faculty and/or administrators, as well as a number of former parents and alumni, have been involved in the Mankind Project.
In fact, the former National Hyde Alumni and Parent Association (HAPA) Coordinator (along with his wife) was/is very much involved in MKP. Lee Mortenson and his wife, Carol Kirkland, have also previously provided couples and family therapy for folk in association with Hyde's FLC weekends (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677#p307987) (ya gotta pay extra), in addition to same at their Potomac, Maryland, location (http://http://www.hapaonline.org/relationship-workshops).
From Lee Mortenson's brief bio (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&p=308089#p308089), emphasis added:
...While his professional career was externally rewarding, his personal life lead him to deeper introspection and on an entirely different journey. By the early 1990's, Lee had been married and divorced three times. While he had all of the standard signs of "success", he was depressed and recognized that he was a party to all of the "failures" of his marriages. His successes didn't seem to "feed" him in any meaningful way.
At first, Lee sought professional help, then was involved in a number of local and national Men's groups, attending the New Warriors weekend initiation adventure in 1992 and, in the late 1980's and early 1990's, managed several regional gatherings of men at Buffalo Gap, West Virginia. Each of these experiences helped him to understand a little more about his inner issues, and when he began a new relationship with Carol, he decided it was time to dig deeper. This lead to a decade long involvement with Doug and Naomi Moseley, two teachers who focus on relationships to others and to yourself. Over the past decade, Lee moved from an occasional workshop attendee to an interest in assisting in Intimacy Training. In 2003 he began a four-year apprenticeship with the Moseleys, working with clients and groups. In 2008, he and Carol join the Moseley training staff, assisting with some of the week-long trainings in Taos, NM, in addition to their practice in Maryland.[/list][/size] This 'Intimacy Training' (aka 'The Moseley Method') appears to be the basis of the relationship workshops that Mortenson and Kirkland offer to HAPA members via Hyde School. It also, incidentally, appears to be connected in some way with the Mankind Project. All of the men involved in the "web ring" of partners/affiliates (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&p=308342#p308342) that are noted on Mortenson/Kirkland's website (http://http://www.relationshiptraining.net) ... have been involved in some way or another with the Mankind Project.
That's exactly what I'm talking about. Someone attends some fucking "workshop" run by some wannabe guru, then they think they've got the qualifications to open up their very own teen version of that moronic bullshit. It's sickening. ::puke::
Title: Comments: "...The MKP and Michael Scinto," #s 41-60
Post by: Ursus on October 17, 2010, 07:58:21 PM
I'm gonna try to finish up on the comments left for the Michael Scinto article which, believe it or not, are still being left on the Houston Press site...
Fwiw, the most recent (previous) post with said comments is here (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&start=90#p378634).
-------------- • -------------- • --------------
Comments (http://http://www.houstonpress.com/2007-10-04/news/weekend-warriors/) left for the above article, "Naked Men: The ManKind Project and Michael Scinto (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&start=75#p373876)" (by Chris Vogel, Oct 4 2007, Houston Press), #s 41-60:
Vincent · 10/11/2007 2:36:54 PM
Having done the Warrior weekend in Aug. of 2005, I can say that our weekend ABSOLUTELY did not include many things mentioned in this article. The organization asked many questions in my application and they were always concerned with everyone's well being. Before any strenuous events, everyone was asked if they felt they could handle the task at hand. This is not for everyone, but what is? The weekend was very challenging for me...mentally and emotionally. However, I always felt they were there for me. I got more from the MKP than my $185/hr therapist ever offered. And I bet my therapist would not be there for me if I needed real help. My brothers would, and have without a question. I would bet my life that NO therapist has had the learning experiences had by the staff with men opening up like they did at MKP. I would never feel comfortable sharing my darkest with my therapist. That takes TRUST. The staff and members of MKP give much of their time beyond normal meetings. It is a very giving and strong group. I owe them alot. My hope is that the family that lost a child can focus its energy on a way to make a positive difference. This is not the way.
Vincent · 10/11/2007 2:44:28 PM
I wanted to add the most important part to my last ramble #41: My heart goes out to the family and my prayers are with them. With this exposure, if anything needs to be changed at MKP...I bet it will.
Craw F. · 10/11/2007 8:12:39 PM
All these comments from different men about their experiences on their Weekend. Then what they each believe to be the truth in this story. Was it the drugs and alcohol ? Was it the trauma he uncovered during the Weekend ? Was this young man mentally unstable ? Maybe the lack of training on the part of the Weekend's staff. No one will ever know. The real tragedy of this story is that this suicide was a well known secrete inside certain MKP circles. It was known to a lesser extent outside MKP. Inside, some questions were asked about a death rumour involving a member. Do you think the truth was told ? What does MKP say about Accountability ? I put some distance between myself and MKP because of the increasing demands on my time away from my family. It was also getting expensive. I maintain contact with a few men from my I-Group. I've learned that I can see the forest now and not just the trees. Today I believe that the tragedy (crime ?) was in their denial (cover-up ?). This seems to be today's acceptable response by others in positions of power. Just ask Scooter Libby and the former C.E.O. of Tyco. What got them in the slammer was not their actions or crimes, but their denials and cover-ups. There is a lesson to be learned here. Is MKP listening ?
Rich M · 10/11/2007 8:20:53 PM
Dear anonymous, After reading the sum total wisdom of your comments, you would do well to listen to a man like Joey. Of course, listening is much harder for a real man.
Dianne Hammonds · 10/14/2007 5:38:58 PM
I read with interest the article in the Houston Press regarding Michael Scinto and the Mankind Project. I have known the Scinto family for 30 years and am still very close friends with Michael's mother, Kathy. The article was very well written and having known Michael and his family, know that Michael was definitely a changed person after having attending the weekend with the Mankind Project. It is very sad indeed that Michael's life ended so abruptly and that his family will have to live with his absence for the rest of their lives. My children and the Scinto children grew up together in Katy, Texas. They swam on swim team together. Kathy Scinto was my daughter's Brownie Leader. My heart continues to feel the grief and heartache the Scintos are going through. Kudos to Chris for writing such a factual article detailing the horrible experience Michael was put through prior to his untimely death.
Matt · 10/15/2007 7:24:40 AM
Chris, My heartfelt condolences go out to the family of Michael Scinto. While it is very unfortunate to read of this tragedy you have to wonder how many men’s lives MKP has helped save. Mine is one and I know I am not alone. This situation reminds me to consider a hospital setting where thousands of lives are saved or improved but that is certainly not always the case. It reminds me of cases where school districts are involved in lawsuits because they are put in a position of parent in the absence thereof. My point is that we should not throw the baby out with the bath water by implying that MKP or hospitals or schools are inherently bad because they are not perfect. Life is not perfect, and MKP is trying to save men that have gone astray in an imperfect life. We can shoot arrows at anything I suppose, but why focus on organizations that are about trying to improve the world one person at a time? Matt
Universal Brother · 10/15/2007 7:35:48 PM
My Heart goes out to the family of this young man who took his own life. There have been times when I have felt quite depressed and after giving in to drugs and alcohol, was somehow glad to awaken in a painful stupor the next day with the sobering perspective knowing that if I had owned a gun, I would have blown my head off to end the previous night's round of painful self-reflections. I have been an active member of MKP over the years and am presently inactive. I have seen the MKP weekend and Integration Groups help many men in their respective communities become better brothers, fathers and husbands in the community at large. I had a positive experience during my MKP weekend and felt safe, never threatened; one man left our weekend prematurely and I felt it was under safe circumstances too. Afterwards, as I integrated the training in my community, I experienced personal issues of mistrust with some MKP brothers and had some shifting integrity issues to deal with in regard to some of my stuff, and some judgements I had towards others. After awhile, I felt I did not wish to be active with the group and was a bit diappointed by the potential of the journey we could have shared together, but did not. Again, my judgements. I feel that overall, MKP is a positive force in the world, given so many unhealthy social alternatives our culture is flooded with.
Korry · 10/17/2007 8:39:13 AM
I have been a proud member of MKP since 1999, and like Chris Vogel, I am also a journalist, but aside from what I see as poor research, a clear bias, and prose so sensationalistic that it would make Geraldo Rivera wince, one thing that strikes me is the curiously puritanical panic over nudity throughout the piece in what is supposed to be an alternative weekly. I mean, the title of the piece starts off with "Naked Men" as if we all supposed to be shocked, shocked! at the very idea of such, and the word "naked" then shows up eight more times, pejoratively. This, more than anything, shows up the depth of neuroticism in American culture over the human body, across the ideological spectrum, no matter how "progressive" such ostensibly alternative New Times franchises claim to be. That Vogel can not concieve of men getting naked together without imputing sexual transgressions is proof of that. Robert Bly's "Wild Man" is still too radical a notion for a people who are afraid of going through life by actually LIVING it.
Rick · 10/18/2007 6:32:49 PM
Has anyone considered the following indisputable points: 1. According to the article, MKP has initiated 4,000 men since 1991. I think it is safe to assume that these are often troubled men looking for healing. Just reviewing the comments, many men self-report having found what they were looking for. Aside from the fact that it is highly questionable to suggest that the weekend event was the cause of a relapsing drug and alcohol dependent man's decision to commit suicide, one participant's suicide as compared to the experiences of 4,000 men over a 16 year period does not suggest a problem with the weekend to me. And while Vogel suggests that the weekend constitutes therapy, what is the suicide rate among the clientele of practicing psychologists? Just because someone chooses to commit the difficult to predict act of suicide should not be an indictment on a troubled individual's therapist or the weekend event. 2. I find great irony in the fact that Vogel effectively concludes that the weekend constitutes therapy, and then he chooses to "out" participants in the weekend BY NAME. What purpose was served by outing men participating in a purportedly therapeutic weekend other than to sensationalize the article at these men's expense? The story could have been told without using anyone's name and could have been told with reference only to their professions if Vogel thought that important. If Mr. Vogel found a therapist's client book wouldn't journalistic ethics dictate that he not publish a list of client names. If one of the men Vogel chose to "out" grows despondent because of the false suggestion that he either touched some other man's penis or was similarly touched on the weekend and takes his life, is Vogel responsible for that? Does anyone doubt that the Houston Press's argument would be that the individual was troubled anyway and that the Press is not at fault. I think it was truly shameful and unprofessional to use the names of participants on the weekend. It served no purpose whatsoever. I suggest Vogel reexamine his journalistic integrity.
Korry · 10/19/2007 9:45:48 PM
"In the story 'Weekend Warriors,' we misidentified the executive director of The ManKind Project Houston. The current executive director is Greg Gondron. The Houston Press regrets the error." This begs the question then of how diligently did Chris Vogel do his research.
Rory Bowman · 10/20/2007 9:27:32 AM
Oh, let's not be too hard on Mr. Vogel. A lot of very successful reporters basically function as stenographers for their most convenient source. Just look at various "financial reporters" or the White House press corps.
Rory Bowman · 10/20/2007 9:27:59 AM
Oh, let's not be too hard on Mr. Vogel. A lot of very successful reporters basically function as stenographers for their most convenient source. Just look at various "financial reporters" or the White House press corps.
Brian Davis · 10/25/2007 9:51:22 AM
Having done the Warrior Weekend and seen most every man there benefit greatly, as I did as well, it saddens me to see this misinformed attack piece on a group thats core focus--and accomplishment--is the improvement and often salvation of men's lives. While no group is perfect, by and large the intentions of this group as a whole, as well as the intentions of the men as individuals are benevolent to say the least. That said, it isn't for everyone! Some guys just aren't up for it and that's fine. While I am sad for the Scinto family, impugning the entire organization is very misguided. It has produced thousands of initiates who go about their lives in much better ways than they would have had they not attended the weekend. With respect to suicide, I believe the suicide count among those same men would be much much higher had they not had the weekend experience. The organization would do itself well to screen potential initiates better. Having been in a college fraternity I can attest that the initation challenges we went through were FAR SAFER and actually had a healing purpose and effect, rather than mere bonding. Also, for anyone who wishes to know, we were free to leave the premises anytime we wished. Finally, despite the numerous references to nakedness in the article, there was absolutely nothing sexual about the weekend. Very sad that the effect of this article will be to discourage men from attending when the simple fact is that most would benefit. But I suppose in a day and age when recess for children is viewed as exposing them to danger we shouldn't be surprised by the above.
Nonya · 10/30/2007 11:31:13 AM
Let's not forget the men who come back from this weekend and become abusive, verbally or otherwise with their friends and family. This weekend helps men get in touch with anger and men who already have anger problems come back feeling as if this is a good thing. These men are not shown the difference between "aggressiveness" and "assertiveness". They are only shown aggressiveness and how "powerfull" this can make them feel. No one has mentioned this problem here, nor has it been mentioned the number of men who come back from this weekend who either A. End up leaving their spouses or B. Their spouses end up leaving them.
Nonya · 10/30/2007 11:31:19 AM
Let's not forget the men who come back from this weekend and become abusive, verbally or otherwise with their friends and family. This weekend helps men get in touch with anger and men who already have anger problems come back feeling as if this is a good thing. These men are not shown the difference between "aggressiveness" and "assertiveness". They are only shown aggressiveness and how "powerfull" this can make them feel. No one has mentioned this problem here, nor has it been mentioned the number of men who come back from this weekend who either A. End up leaving their spouses or B. Their spouses end up leaving them.
Korry · 10/31/2007 10:54:17 AM
The organization, MKP, goes out of its way to stress the difference between being assertive and being aggressive, so Nonya is either 1)uninformed or 2)lying. The marriages that do fall apart were already on the rocks, and it can be stressed that are many instances in which the experience of the weekend actually improved the quality of a marriage. Furthermore, considering the extremely high divorce rate in North America, it is ridiculous to blame it all on a three-day weekend.
Nonya · 11/03/2007 8:39:56 AM
OR...... I am telling the truth and those who are MKP appologist just cannot see that as they "create their own reality". When MKP person's hear something from the "outside" that is not 100% supportive of MKP they either A. Call them liers. or B. Say they don't know what they are talking about.
Korry · 11/08/2007 7:35:17 PM
If Nonya's claims had any basis in reality, then scores of wives, girlfriends, children, extended relatives, and neighbors would be coming forward and validating them -- in fact, this organization has been around long enough, with enough members, that by now there would be a mountain of negative evidence and testimonies. The reality is that the majority of the women whose men do this work support the organization. But who am I to second-guess Nonya, since she obviously went through the weekend as well, and attends the men's support groups on a regular basis, not to mention all the staff trainings she has signed up for, in which throughout none of all this do we EVER make the distinction between "assertion" and "aggression," according to Nonya.
lonnie sweet · 11/12/2007 5:01:07 PM
Do a web search for "Mankind Project" there already is a mountian of negative feedback about these clowns. I know first hand what goes on on these weekends and agree they should be shutdown immediately. ALL the claims against them are true while the wishy-washy positives are all just the same comment paraphrased.
Leo Tolstoy · 11/17/2007 7:06:50 AM
All happy families resemble one another, each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.
° ° °
Title: Re: Comments: "...The MKP and Michael Scinto," #s 41-60
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 18, 2010, 11:19:26 AM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Dianne Hammonds · 10/14/2007 5:38:58 PM
I read with interest the article in the Houston Press regarding Michael Scinto and the Mankind Project. I have known the Scinto family for 30 years and am still very close friends with Michael's mother, Kathy. The article was very well written and having known Michael and his family, know that Michael was definitely a changed person after having attending the weekend with the Mankind Project. It is very sad indeed that Michael's life ended so abruptly and that his family will have to live with his absence for the rest of their lives. My children and the Scinto children grew up together in Katy, Texas. They swam on swim team together. Kathy Scinto was my daughter's Brownie Leader. My heart continues to feel the grief and heartache the Scintos are going through. Kudos to Chris for writing such a factual article detailing the horrible experience Michael was put through prior to his untimely death.
It really is sad. I can't believe people fall for this bullshit. Some wannabe guru attends some workshop and BING!!! The lightbulb goes off and he realized he can accomplish two things by starting his own brand of the bullshit. First, he gets what he really wants.....the worship of and control over other people. Guys like James Ray crave the adoration of a group of people. They view themselves as some sort of a spiritual leader and/or counselor, despite having zero credentials for such and the unfortunate lemmings follow him, sometimes right over the proverbial cliff. The clinical term for it is Malignant Narcissism. Virgil Miller Newton had it, Dean Vause had it. Joe Gauld appears to have had it and James Ray certainly has it. Second, he gets to cash in on his newfound guru status and charge the lost souls for his 'leadership'. What a fucking crock of shit.
Title: Re: Comments: "...The MKP and Michael Scinto," #s 41-60
Post by: Ursus on October 18, 2010, 12:27:24 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Commenter on the Michael Scinto article"
Dianne Hammonds · 10/14/2007 5:38:58 PM
I read with interest the article in the Houston Press regarding Michael Scinto and the Mankind Project. I have known the Scinto family for 30 years and am still very close friends with Michael's mother, Kathy. The article was very well written and having known Michael and his family, know that Michael was definitely a changed person after having attending the weekend with the Mankind Project. It is very sad indeed that Michael's life ended so abruptly and that his family will have to live with his absence for the rest of their lives. My children and the Scinto children grew up together in Katy, Texas. They swam on swim team together. Kathy Scinto was my daughter's Brownie Leader. My heart continues to feel the grief and heartache the Scintos are going through. Kudos to Chris for writing such a factual article detailing the horrible experience Michael was put through prior to his untimely death.
It really is sad. I can't believe people fall for this bullshit. Some wannabe guru attends some workshop and BING!!! The lightbulb goes off and he realized he can accomplish two things by starting his own brand of the bullshit. First, he gets what he really wants.....the worship of and control over other people. Guys like James Ray crave the adoration of a group of people. They view themselves as some sort of a spiritual leader and/or counselor, despite having zero credentials for such and the unfortunate lemmings follow him, sometimes right over the proverbial cliff. The clinical term for it is Malignant Narcissism. Virgil Miller Newton had it, Dean Vause had it. Joe Gauld appears to have had it and James Ray certainly has it. Second, he gets to cash in on his newfound guru status and charge the lost souls for his 'leadership'. What a fucking crock of shit.
That particular comment hit me in the craw as well. There's another one in the next set, by a friend of the family who got a message on her answering machine from Kathy Scinto right after they found Michael...
Joe Gauld's latest LGAT focus appears to be on the Hoffman Quadrinity Process (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=26801) (originally known as the Fischer-Hoffman Psychic Therapy (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=26801&start=15#p330685) in the late 1960s, before Dr. Siegfried Fischer's widow filed a lawsuit re. the bogus attribution). Modified protocols of the HQP have already been incorporated into the boarding school as well as the public charter school curricula. Hyde School faculty, parents and alumni are also "encouraged" to attend this 8-day seminar which, by special arrangement and for their convenience, is given right at Hyde School!
Interestingly enough, the conservative philanthropy the William H. Donner Foundation has been a benefactor to both the Hyde Schools (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=21774#p265544) and to the Hoffman Quadrinity Process, the latter indirectly by providing major funding for a "research study (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=26801&start=15#p360623)" exploring the alleged benefits of undergoing this LGAT and via its Canadian arm, the Donner Canadian Foundation. Journalist Krishna Rau has described DCF as "the new sugar daddy for the right (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=21774&start=15#p360604).''
Fwiw, Hoffman Institute CEO Charles "Raz" Ingrasci has had a lifetime career of key executive and training positions in "self-improvement seminar companies," which include EST and Lifespring.
Title: Re: Comments: "...The MKP and Michael Scinto," #s 41-60
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 18, 2010, 01:17:11 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
That particular comment hit me in the craw as well. There's another one in the next set, by a friend of the family who got a message on her answering machine from Kathy Scinto right after they found Michael...
Where's that?
Quote
Joe Gauld's latest LGAT focus appears to be on the Hoffman Quadrinity Process (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=26801) (originally known as the Fischer-Hoffman Psychic Therapy (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=26801&start=15#p330685) in the late 1960s, before Dr. Siegfried Fischer's widow filed a lawsuit re. the bogus attribution). Modified protocols of the HQP have already been incorporated into the boarding school as well as the public charter school curricula. Hyde School faculty, parents and alumni are also "encouraged" to attend this 8-day seminar which, by special arrangement and for their convenience, is given right at Hyde School!
Interestingly enough, the conservative philanthropy the William H. Donner Foundation has been a benefactor to both the Hyde Schools (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=21774#p265544) and to the Hoffman Quadrinity Process, the latter indirectly by providing major funding for a "research study (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=26801&start=15#p360623)" exploring the alleged benefits of undergoing this LGAT and via its Canadian arm, the Donner Canadian Foundation. Journalist Krishna Rau has described DCF as "the new sugar daddy for the right (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=21774&start=15#p360604).''
Fwiw, Hoffman Institute CEO Charles "Raz" Ingrasci has had a lifetime career of key executive and training positions in "self-improvement seminar companies," which include EST and Lifespring.
::puke::
Title: Re: Comments: "...The MKP and Michael Scinto," #s 41-60
Post by: Ursus on October 18, 2010, 01:44:58 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Ursus"
That particular comment hit me in the craw as well. There's another one in the next set, by a friend of the family who got a message on her answering machine from Kathy Scinto right after they found Michael...
Where's that?
The very first comment in the next set of comments, to follow in the post immediately after this one. The comment by Heather Del Rio.
And... to set the record straight, I remembered it incorrectly. The message had been left by Becky Arnett, Michael Scinto's sister (not his mother).
Title: Comments: "...The MKP and Michael Scinto," #s 61-80
Post by: Ursus on October 18, 2010, 01:48:51 PM
Comments (http://http://www.houstonpress.com/2007-10-04/news/weekend-warriors/) left for the above article, "Naked Men: The ManKind Project and Michael Scinto (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&start=75#p373876)" (by Chris Vogel, Oct 4 2007, Houston Press), #s 61-80:
Heather Del Rio · 11/30/2007 8:23:23 AM
I will never forget the day I came into to work and listened to my messages and heard Becky's distraut voice. "Hi Heather, It's Bec. I just wanted you to know Mike's dead. Call me." and she broke down sobbing as she hung up the phone. I immediately called her, the reality, and permanance of it all not yet hitting me. Expecting her to tell me of a car accident I was shocked to find out he had commited suicide. Mike was a great man, a man that strived for beterment of himself. He followed after his father with the strength and humor that he provided to all he knew. To say that he was a troubled man, or that his parents obviously are looking to blame someone else rather than turning the finger on themselves is obsered. Any family who has been through a suicide death always looks to themselves first, what could I have done to stop this, why didn't I see the signs, and so forth. This family is no different. Michael trusted the advice of his AA sponser as so many do, and he attended the weekend, I had never heard of something like this until Michael's death. I thought the article was very well done, and it attempted to show both sides of the story, unfortunately the people in charge of the "program" were unavaliable to commnet. Why not comment if there was nothing to hide. I am sure they were advised by counsel to stay quiet, but it looks bad. The Scinto family wants to make sure that something like this doesn't happen to someone else. As with anything, any program, any product, there are going to be people that have a possitive experience and those that will not. The issue that I see here, and that I think people are missing is that this program is not run by trained mental health providers, and they are offering the possibility of a mental health benefit. One person's experience may be different from anothers because of their own past history, and the people leading the sessions. The responce to stress is different for everyone, to say that all men should be helped by this, or that they should all react the same is rediculous. To say that there is no way that men were asked to touch eachother if they would like is assinine, you weren't there, you don't know. It makes sense to me that these men would want to keep secrets about the activities they did, while naked, from others because the chances of it being accepted in mainstream society are slim to none. So to all of the past participants of the "program" who claim to not have experienced the naked dancing, or the cock pssing, sure....we believe you. To those that have been helped by this "program", and support it's activities, more power to you. I hope that you thank God everyday for not having the experience that Mike did. I am sure there are those that were not harmed, that were helped, but Mike was no liar. HE was harmed by this, his experience was different, so instead of making him wrong, and making his family wrong, please try to open yourself up to the possibility that this could have happened, and that it is a very sad thing. You can do that and still support your "program", because after all you didn't have the same experience as he. This family was hurt, shocked, and damaged by the suicide of Michael. He tried to get help, but was turned away, he was an honest, hard working man, and the workd has lost an assest. God places us all in areas that we are needed, he pulls us "home" when our work is done. Mike was supposed to go through this to open the eyes of those that are trying so hard to look the other direction and not see what is there. There are things going on that need to be changed, and hopefuly because of Mike those things can be changed. To the Scinto's.....I love you guys! Stay stron in your faith, God will pull you through this, and Mike is looking down smiling at the work you do on his behalf!
Anon · 12/15/2007 11:05:04 PM
I used to be an MKP member. I went through the NWTA back in 1992, before MKP was even founded. The New Warrior Network became the MKP a few years later, apparently for legal reasons (a company inside a company fares legal problems better) but also to show that it wasn't a one-trick-pony type of thing, and to broaden its appeal as well as make it more internationally portable. When I went through, it was intense, challenging, weird, exhausting, exhilarating, and transformative. I really wonder what sort of person I'd be today if I hadn't done it. I would probably still be very unhappy, timid, and repressed. The experience really was what I needed at the time and for the next 10 years, I was part of it and its weekly meetings, etc. As years went by though, and more and more people joined, some with complex and off-topic agendas, the whole point of the thing began to get murkier. There was a lot more vying for position, the typical B-S associated with, say, work life, and some really nutty dudes began showing up. I agree that there were people in the training doing stuff that was pretty advanced with trainees that may or may not have been ready for the experience. Most therapists don't get as deep as what happens in the first 1-2 hours at the training. And while it's true to say that perhaps they should, it is also true to say that such an event is no time for amateur hour. There were a couple times when I staffed that I felt that some men in positions of authority in the training were behaving in ways they really should not have been, and treated me or other men there in a way inconsistent with the stated goals of the training, to put it mildly. What the final straw for me was though was the thorough and seemingly intractable "muddying of the goals" I mentioned before. All sorts of new "protocols" were introduced that were a significant departure from the main focus of the organization as I had experienced it. This is not just the complaint of an old hand who likes things the way he has always seen them; these new exercises and "protocols" were really very controversial to say the least and focused intensely around the examination of ethnic identity issues and racism in society and in one's personal life. Such topics are important and have their place in self-examination, but this was not like adding 5% to something, but more like 50%. And, it was done with no consultation with the membership at large and seemed to be pursued in an aggressive and positively antagonistic way. When I realized that this seemed to be a change that was going to happen with or without my approval or the approval of others at large, I decided it was time for me to move on. I had other issues, too, but this was the biggest one. Since then, I have had little or no contact with other MKP members, mostly because we have just gone off our own ways in life. Some of the friends I made through MKP agreed with my opinion of things or came to their own similar conclusions and also just "moved on". It was a sad decision to make; I felt like something very important and wonderful, and needed for so many men and their loved ones, was being spoiled. I comforted myself with the realization that all new pursuits, if they are well-received and establish new ways of viewing the world and one's place in society, eventually become institutions (not unlike government, religion, etc.). And all institutions without exception become corrupt-- ie, the reason they are formed eventually gets lost in politics and agendas and soon it exists merely as an end unto itself. No reason to believe this was any exception, but it was a sad day when I knew I couldn't remain and be "in integrity" with myself. Which brings me to today, 5 years later-- I just found out about this story and indeed I am sorry to see it has arisen. I can't say though I am surprised; the experience is very intense and frankly I am amazed the NWTA hasn't come under this level of public scrutiny due ot such an event before now. Obviously I don't know all the details and have only this article to go by, but I do know this: such an event will have repercussions and its effects will lead to some serious soul-searching among the leadership. If not, then there's something wrong. But no matter, I hope that justice is served in whatever way it should be, and it saddens me to see yet again something that was born of a great need and desire to be of help to men and indeed humanity in general is having serious troubles. I am more saddened though at the loss of this man and the impact it has had on his family and community. Nothing but tragedy in this story-- no winners as it were. All of it bad for everyone.
Wanda · 01/06/2008 4:49:38 PM
Has anyone asked the attorney general to investigate the suspected criminal activity of practicing psychotherapy without a license?
b man · 01/13/2008 10:47:49 PM
Its about money and tax evasion. The only goal of MKP. And they should look into a lawyer that knows something. You cannot have a release from "strict liability" in any situation. How would they break someones homophobic feelings? Have the other 40 men pound them until they change? This is a cult
Corey · 02/14/2008 6:43:00 PM
First off my heart goes to family that lost a loved one. An important one at that. I've read quite a bit of hatred towards the organization. I can't begin to tell how the Mankind Project has postively impacted my life as well as my wife and kids. It was my wife who put me in touch with them. She's happy since we're still married. I know that if it were not for MKP AND my ongoing involvement, I would be divorced by now. I was treated with the utmost care. Was it scary. You bet. I have assisted in staffing twice. My total intention is from a position of love and care. Nothing matters more than the safety and well-being of the new men coming through. This is made abundantly clear as we were preparing for the arrival of the new men. If what we are doing is so bad, why are there more and more men coming to the training? Why are we in so many countries? Why haven't there been a plethora of successful lawsuits against MKP? I'm also wondering why the newspaper article concentrates mainly on just one incident. I know there are many more positive outcomes than negative outcomes as a result of involvment with MKP. I've seen the books in the centre I've been involved with and I can assure you, nobody is getting rich over this. The leaders are given a bit of an honourarium and the other staff men pay to staff and pay for their own travel out of their own pocket. This is simply out of love for their brothers. I challenge the Houston Press to look for the positive stories as a counter to this sad one. There are many of them out there and they are not hard to find.
AS · 04/20/2008 6:21:40 PM
Wow I'm not sure what goes on in the American training, but i've just done one here in Australia and it's been nothing like that story! I guess its different for different countries/cultures or something because I found it extremely loving, supportive. I can't speak for everyone tho.
Moco · 08/02/2008 10:00:24 AM
ANONYMOUS SAYS: "I've never seen so many dysfunctional men in my life. They seem to be the ones that don't fit into normal society..." and with the emotional maturity of a 12 year old. This may be partly true because I used to work at a Catholic church in Louisiana and several of the priests went to a Houston MKP retreat a few years ago... and let's just say they acted like bigger women than I do. NO OFFENSE, but this is my view.
Charles · 02/06/2009 1:30:05 AM
Ran across this article today. Went through NWTA last summer, and I'm completing my PIT group week after next. I went through it with my father, actually. All I can say is that there is never a simple explanation for suicide. Ironically, it is the very opposite of accountability and integrity. More than that, though, it's a tragedy of profound proportions, no matter who it happens to or what the circumstances are. Suicide leaves no one standing, and I can easily understand why the guns got pointed at MKP. I can even understand Mr. Vogel's feelings as he wrote this and did his interviews - any decent person would empathize with the family of someone who killed themselves. I imagine Mr. Vogel feels he's done a public service. It's a very short hop from empathy to self-righteousness, as I'm sure any righteous crusader for any cause would tell you, if they possessed that level of self-awareness (which of course, they wouldn't, because if they did there would be no room left for the righteousness). On some level, I imagine the men who led Mr. Scinto's NWTA feel that they failed him. My hearts go out to them, because it's human for them to feel some of that, and I hope their loved ones and their brothers helped them get through this time and continue to do so. To be be villified in public for participating in something which you personally know to be valuable, positive, life-changing, nurturing ... to be blamed for the death of a man you tried to help. Yeah, that's gotta be rough. I suppose people like the early Christians who were martyred for their faith, the European Jews of the 20th century, and the Indians led by Ghandi seeking from British occupation could all empathize with my brothers in Houston. Thing is, I doubt their empathy would turn into righteousness. I guess that's what happens when you aren't hampered by ignorance.
tt · 05/11/2009 2:38:51 PM
That is awful what happened to that young man and I fully believe that mkp was a cause. It is a shame when grownups instead of nurturing people that have been traumatized in a healthy loving way, one would cause more trauma in a way that is secret, dark and dirty In a cover of supposedly "healing people". Its disturbing that people voluntarily go and involve themselves in unnecessary activity so that they can feel a part of something and then possibly lure innocent people to be a part. Why are so many willing to go and be abused? It is obvious if something is secret that it is not honest or any good. However, I know that my view is very much in the minority. Wake up people!
Lynn · 05/18/2009 1:06:26 PM
wow, I feel horribly for the Scinto family but as one whose ex-husband attended this weekend outside of Houston while we were married I can attest to what the article says as being the truth....my husband was very emotionally fragile and had no business going to such a stressful weekend while he was suffering from a psychotic breakdown (the 3rd one he had experienced in his 30 years)... My basic fears were confirmed when I was told "that they signed documents forbidding them from sharing the details of the weekend" with ANYONE particularly their spouses and family. That was a huge red flag.......a spouse should be able to share everything......but then there was the mysterious case of poison ivy on my husband's male anatomy.. Yes he came home complaining about poison ivy on his private parts.......which only supports the being naked and out in the woods. He finally did share some of the weekend rituals and it disgusts me to think about them now as much as it did then.....ultimately we got a divorce as I was so disturbed by what took place and the mind control the group seemed to inflict. The men basically live outside and eat very little and are charged huge sums of money to attend.......biggest sham and the board and executive director should be heavily investigated....
Charlie · 12/01/2009 3:13:53 AM
This article lacks any journalistic integrity. By playing on fears of homosexuality and the story of one man whom I have compassion for but was obviously disturbed with or without MKP the author created a piece around a thesis he had already decided upon; that MKP caused Scinto's death and that it is a cultish, dangerous organization. As a proud member of MKP Chicago I can say that while I was not at this training many of the things described here have never happened in the numerous weekends and events I have participated in with MKP. Not that I place the quality of a rag such as the Houston Press high, this seems to be steeping to quite a low.
Deborah · 12/03/2009 5:26:48 PM
Of course anyone involved with "The Mankind Project" would say that anything written against what they do is a lie to hide the fact that it's an expensive weekend of primal barbarism. That explains the secret pact that they must have. As for this being a therapeutic weekend to help men evolve into men, why is it that a man has to stoop to a level of devolution to evolve? And, where's the real love in all this?
M Barker · 12/10/2009 12:28:38 AM
I think what must have happened to Michael Scinto is that the confrontation process MKP was doing and the roomful of naked men must've taken him right back to the time when he was 6. His apparent fear of being attacked sounds like that. His description of his experience sounds like a mingling of an MKP training weekend and a 6 year old's terror, embarrassment, and overwhelm over having just been molested - as Michael had when he was 6. He was coping with MKP's pressure like a 6 year-old rather than an adult. It sounds like it refreshed his molestation experience and made it feel like right now. And all of the fear and embarrassment and SHAME was made to be new and fresh and NOW. Addicts usually take whatever their drugs are as a response to shame. Feeling like they are worthless, bad, wrong. Most of us who've been molested grow up feeling just like that. Some people who were molested have been known to commit suicide. The MKP may be OK as far as they go, but a 12-step group WORKED DILIGENTLY will get you further, but more slowly. There's something in our culture that wants to fix problems RIGHT NOW. Some problems can't be fixed that fast and trying to do so causes bigger problems like, perhaps, in Michael's case. MKP is limited in what they're able to do, they don't have Jung's deep understanding of the unconscious mind. They have a laudable goal and, from what I've seen, work toward it with some measure of integrity. But their approach is limited and, for some, ill-advised. I know men who have, as I have, been through one of these weekends. Their i-groups or whatever meetings are a lot like an Al Anon or Co-dependents Anonymous meeting without the safety and structure of Al Anon or CODA and where other people sometimes try to do your work for you, which is really a lot less helpful than it seems. In the 12-step groups, there's a code-word for anyone who's trying to take advantage of a newcomer for their own ends. They call them "13th-steppers". There is no 13th step. The insinuation is that the person taking advantage of the newcomer is trying to add their own new step to the 12 steps. I wouldn't hesitate to say that anyone who is working the first 12 steps with the integrity that MKP tries to teach won't be trying to coerce or pressure anyone into going to an MKP weekend. A real man will respect the wishes of another man and not try repeatedly to pressure him into joining their favorite organization or group.
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roger whittaker · 08/18/2010 1:58:24 AM
this story makes me fearul and sick. i'm glad that none of my interactions with the NWA movement have been even remotely similiar.
Mark · 09/05/2010 11:43:25 AM
I feel great sadness for this man and the Scinto family. I have attended many MKP weekends and they have been nothing short of supportive and nurturing atmospheres. Perhaps for this man, the weekend invoked past memories that were not pleasant. I can say from my own experience that no one was forced to do anything that they did not want to do, any man could leave when he wanted without fear of any action and each man was treated with respect. I was encouraged to hug my wife and children when I returned because being a better husband and father is advocated. Did I share everything with my wife? Absolutely not. You are encouraged to keep details of the weekend to yourself and MKP member to prevent ruining it for other men who wish to attend. Not attending the weekend, however, should not give you the write of some biased reporter to write falsehoods. The fortunate truth is that there are many, many men who have attended and this is the first incidence of suicide that I have heard. My respect to the Scinto family, but I can hardly concur that there was a correlation between the two.
Mark · 09/05/2010 12:03:16 PM
My apologies to the Scinto family for the loss of thier family member. The postings by Deborah and Lynn demonstrate the fear that these women and women like them have for men to express their feelings and share non sexual intimacy with other men(the only touch I see during these weekends is the occasional bro hug). Deborah's choice of the word barbaric is laughable and I guess measured by her own subjective barometer. Lynn might think that she divorced her husband because the details of the weekend disgusted her, but I challenge her to be more honest with herself and admit that their were far more serious issues in her marriage that caused the divorce. Blaming a ruined marriage on a weekend is not only being short sighted, itis irrational.
Joe Know · 10/07/2010 11:14:17 PM
The MKP has the same principles and uses the same techniques as EST, which had to change its name to The Forum in the mid eighties to distance itself from its discredited founder, Werner Erhard. I attended the seminar and saw how it dismayed, hurt, and frustrated some, while turning others into arrogant insensitive "Estholes." MKP is full of the same hypocrisy and harm. In all likelihood MKP will fade away in due time. The sooner the better.
Bill Brand · 10/11/2010 2:42:18 PM
What a sad article this is. I did the New Warrior Training about a month ago. What Mr Scinto describes bears no resemblance to what I experienced. The NWTA was one of the most positive and uplifting experiences of my life. It was certainly challenging at times, but always respectful and compassionate. The volunteers go through intensive training before they are able to lead any group work, the group leaders are amongst the most highly trained people I have come across in the field of personal development and adult education. I have led many programs on team and leadership development, and NWTA is the best personal development weekend program for men that I've come across. Mr Scinto appears to have been vulnerable and confused, and it's a great shame he took his own life, but to blame MKP for what happened to him is misguided and wrong.
° ° °
Title: Re: Comments: "...The MKP and Michael Scinto," #s 41-60
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 18, 2010, 01:59:24 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Nonya · 10/30/2007 11:31:13 AM
Let's not forget the men who come back from this weekend and become abusive, verbally or otherwise with their friends and family. This weekend helps men get in touch with anger and men who already have anger problems come back feeling as if this is a good thing. These men are not shown the difference between "aggressiveness" and "assertiveness". They are only shown aggressiveness and how "powerfull" this can make them feel. No one has mentioned this problem here, nor has it been mentioned the number of men who come back from this weekend who either A. End up leaving their spouses or B. Their spouses end up leaving them.
Wow. Explains quite a bit. :nods:
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: heretik on October 18, 2010, 06:48:37 PM
The ManKind Project
What does it mean to be a modern, mature man? We're redefining mature masculinity for the 21st Century - and we want your help!
Leaders wanted. Men willing to step through fear and into the challenge of their lives. Men not afraid to revolt against repressive social norms, take off their masks and break through their personal barriers. Men ready to take real risks and step into their full power. Men not afraid to inhabit ALL the characteristics required of men in changing times; resiliency, integrity, courage, creativity, innovation, adaptability, compassion, empathy, radical self-responsibility, inclusivity, generosity and respect.
Yes, we scare some people. We fly in the face of rigid stereotypes about the "Sensitive New Age Man" AND the "Macho Man". We ask men to go right up to the edge - and beyond it - in a culture that seems to be comfortable with mediocrity and passivity from men. We ask men to stop living a vicarious adventure through their TV's and step into a real time adventure to win back their passion for life. We ask men to confront the real problems in their lives and to get 100% honest about who they are. Some men have a really hard time doing that. Many of us did too, but we took the risk anyway.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: heretik on October 18, 2010, 06:50:50 PM
Mankind Project
American Journal of Community Psychology - Excerpt cda_displayimage.jpg
As an introduction to the kind of work that we do - and the value that we offer - here is a preamble section from a recent peer reviewed research thesis published in the American Journal of Community Psychology. The value of the work that the ManKind Project offers has been documented in multiple research studies and thesis presentations over the past 15 years. Currently there is also a long term study being conducted across the United States by the ManKind Project. Preliminary findings from this study will be presented at the upcoming 25th Anniversary Celebration in Louisville Kentucky on October 21-23, 2010. The Anniversary Celebration is open to the public. There will be nearly 30 workshops and talks presented over the course of 2 days.
Learn more about the 25th Anniversary at: http://anniversary.mkp.org/ (http://anniversary.mkp.org/) AMERICAN JOURNAL OF COMMUNITY PSYCHOLOGY
Volume 45, Numbers 1-2, 186-200, DOI: 10.1007/s10464-009-9283-3 ORIGINAL PAPER Healing Men and Community: Predictors of Outcome in a Men’s Initiatory and Support Organization
Christopher K. Burke, Kenneth I. Maton, Eric S. Mankowski and Clinton Anderson I. GENERALLY, WHAT IS ManKind Project?
Based upon the mobilization of peer rather than professional resources, the MKPI considers itself to be a grassroots response to the needs of contemporary men by providing an environment that fosters and encourages increased emotional availability, pro-social behavior, community and social support, and a clear sense of life purpose in a way that is congruent with, and affirming of, the empowerment and equality of women.[1] Another fundamental aspect of the MKPI is its emphasis on multiculturalism, with a mission statement that defines itself as ‘‘… a progressive men’s organization striving to be increasingly inclusive and affirming of cultural differences, especially with respect to color, class, sexual orientation, faith, age, ability, ethnicity, and nationality.’’[2] II. WHAT is the New Warrior Training Adventure (NWTA)?
As a general description, the TAW can be said to have two main components. The first is a well-designed structure that encourages the participants to behave in ways that traditional male paradigms discourage—being honest about how one’s behavior impacts others, having the courage to face and overcome difficult emotional issues, and being openly affirmative of other men. This is accomplished through standard procedures employed in other experiential workshops, with a strong focus on Gestalt and psychodramatic methodologies (e.g., group discussions, games, rituals, guided visualizations, journaling, and individual process work). The effectiveness of this aspect of the TAW appears not to be the result of any single, particularly unique method of intervention, but in its application of multiple established methods to confront and transform maladaptive male behaviors and beliefs.
The second component is the modeling, support and encouragement of the TAW staff, all of whom have previously attended a TAW. The weekend is staffed mostly by volunteer members of the MKPI, the majority of whom actually pay to staff the weekend (covering the cost of campsite rent and food, as well as scholarships for men with financial difficulties). An average TAW has 25 attendees, and is staffed by 34 men who provide services for them.[3] These staffers not only provide support and encouragement to the TAW enrollees, but also serve as examples of how to enact the nontraditional male roles and behaviors. III. What are the credentials of the Leaders of the NWTA?
To ensure that every TAW is run proficiently, the MKPI has established a ‘‘Leader’’ certification process. At least four certified leaders are on the staff of every TAW. MKPI leaders are paid for their services and assume full legal and ethical responsibility for the TAW. Leader certification does not constitute a professional license and is not regulated by any government agency. It is a qualification developed by the MKPI to ensure proficiency in managing and leading the logistics of a TAW and to ensure compliance with the MKPI’s standards for education and training. Open to any MKPI member, leader certification requires men to go through a rigorous training process, involving (1) numerous workshops to refine skills necessary to lead a TAW, (2) becoming an apprentice to a current leader, (3) staffing at least 20 TAWs, (4) facing at least three MKPI certification committees, and (5) numerous community volunteer activities. MKPI leader certification is a very time consuming and expensive process, and not all men who undergo leader training are granted leader certification.
Though possessing varied traits, MKPI leaders are selected based on (1) their ability to develop, manage and coordinate a complex group training structure, including overseeing in-depth personal work by individual men within a group setting and (2) their ability to model healthy and adaptive masculine behavior, a characteristic that authors have stated make them particularly effective at leading a TAW.[4] Given the importance of the MKPI leader to the overall process, and to prevent any negative outcomes or abuse that could come from that role, the organization closely monitors leader behaviors and their running of TAWs. On every TAW, at least 1 of the 4 leaders comes from a different center than the one running the weekend, helping to ensure a broad mixture of leader styles and personalities; a full report of the TAW is made to the MKPI by the outside leader. In addition, MKPI leaders must be re-certified annually, and the organization carefully reviews and monitors individual performances. IV. What is offered by MKP after the NWTA?
Following the TAW, men have the opportunity to join a small, supportive, peer-led ‘‘Integration Group’’ (I-Group), formed from the weekend participants. I-Groups begin meeting 2–4 weeks after the TAW. Group selection is based on either geographic location or availability on a given night of the week. Each I-Group goes through an 8-week facilitation period led by three or four I-Group facilitators, one of whom is a MKPI certified I-Group facilitator (similar to Leadership certification, but of a lesser intensity). The I-Group facilitation attempts to create an environment similar to the TAW and to help the group operate independently after the facilitation period ends. Post the facilitation period, I-Groups usually meet between two and four times a month for two and a half hours. They operate autonomously and without cost, similar in structure and function to other peer-led, self-help/mutual aid groups. The I-Groups continue meeting until its members decide to disband or the group stops meeting due to member attrition. V. What scientific research has been carried out on MKPI and its participants?
The MKPI has been the subject of five previous (unpublished) studies, all conducted by MKPI participants (due at least in part to the confidential nature of the TAW). These studies all suggest there are positive changes on the various constructs that researchers felt were germane to the MKPI experience, including an improved understanding of gender roles and increased male intimacy,[5] similar or better outcomes when compared to traditional therapy,[6] improved ability to cope with transition, loss, and unresolved issues from the past,[7] gaining a greater sense of spirituality, purpose and life meaning,[8] and improved social support[9]. In addition, preliminary research on I-Groups in the Washington, DC area suggests that they are effective in retaining members. One research study revealed a median I-Group survival time of 4.5 years (with 70% lasting at least 2 years), and a median length of individual participation of 26.2 months[10]. However, few conclusions can be drawn from these studies due to limitations in the research designs (e.g., small sample sizes, short term follow-up, no comparison samples) and because predictors of outcomes and potential mechanisms of influence generally were not examined. As such, the present research was undertaken to examine MKPI more thoroughly and rigorously, with a much longer longitudinal assessment period, a greater number of variables, a much larger sample, and use of both qualitative and quantitative data.
Re: An original paper published in the American Journal of Community Psychology, January 22, 2010 (online), entitled: “Healing Men and Community: Predictors of Outcome in a Men’s Initiatory and Support Organization, by Christopher K. Burke • Kenneth I. Maton • Eric S. Mankowski • Clinton Anderson – of which the text (but not section titles) is excerpted
[1] ManKind Project International 2005; see also, Mankowski et al. 2000b [2] ManKind Project International 2005 [3] Drury Heffernan, personal communication, March 17, 2008 [4] E.g. Segell 1999 [5] Hartman 1994; Levin 1997; Schulz 1997; Richard 1999 [6] Levin 1997; Richard 1999 [7] Schulz 1997; Richard 1999; Goll 2001 [8] Richard 1999; Goll 2001 [9] Barton 2003 [10] Mankowski et al. 2000a
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: heretik on October 18, 2010, 06:53:27 PM
The New Macho - Newsweek vertical_newsweek.jpg
Newsweek published a series of articles the week of Sept 20, 2010 on "The New Macho" and masculinity in the complex world that we live in. The ManKind Project has posted comments on the articles, and you're encouraged to join the discussion.
While it is certainly a difficult task to try and reclaim the word 'macho' as anything other than the stereotypical violent and out of touch guy portrayed in much of the media, the articles make some good points. One thing that we notice in reading them is that many of the men we know, respect and love in the ManKind Project represent the idea of the "The New Macho" very well. We call these men New Warriors. So bravo, men, keep on evolving!
We are teaching Emotional Integrity and Radical Personal Responsibility. We are helping each other become more resilient, more awake and more inspired to follow our purpose and live our mission. Here are some characteristics that a member of the ManKind Project has put forward as part of the'New Macho' paradigm.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: heretik on October 18, 2010, 07:00:33 PM
The New Macho
He cleans up after himself. He cleans up the planet. He is a role model for young men. He is rigorously honest and fiercely optimistic.
He holds himself accountable. He knows what he feels. He knows how to cry and he lets it go. He knows how to rage without hurting others. He knows how to fear and how to keep moving. He seeks self-mastery.
He's let go of childish shame. He feels guilty when he's done something wrong. He is kind to men, kind to women, kind to children. He teaches others how to be kind. He says he's sorry.
He stopped blaming women or his parents or men for his pain years ago. He stopped letting his defenses ruin his relationships. He stopped letting his penis run his life. He has enough self respect to tell the truth. He creates intimacy and trust with his actions. He has men that he trusts and that he turns to for support. He knows how to roll with it. He knows how to make it happen. He is disciplined when he needs to be. He is flexible when he needs to be. He knows how to listen from the core of his being.
He's not afraid to get dirty. He's ready to confront his own limitations. He has high expectations for himself and for those he connects with. He looks for ways to serve others. He knows he is an individual. He knows that we are all one. He knows he is an animal and a part of nature. He knows his spirit and his connection to something greater.
He knows that the future generations are watching his actions. He builds communities where people are respected and valued. He takes responsibility for himself and is also willing to be his brother's keeper.
He knows his higher purpose. He loves with fierceness. He laughs with abandon, because he gets the joke.
This is the Mature Masculine - it is the redefinition of masculinity for the 21st century. By no means is this list complete. You are welcome to come and add your gifts to this community. - Boysen Hodgson
Take a risk and come to the New Warrior Training Adventure. We help men grow. Because the world needs grown up men.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 19, 2010, 11:41:51 AM
So, what are you trying to say? Did you attend NWT? How did it effect your life? Were you feeling emasculated before attending and did it help reclaim your masculinity?
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Ursus on October 19, 2010, 11:49:09 AM
My guess is heretik is opting to NOT articulate his feelings... :twofinger: Source page for the last two pages of his spamaghetti: LINK (http://http://mankindproject.org/new-macho-newsweek)
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Ursus on October 19, 2010, 11:56:29 AM
Quote from: "heretik wishes he"
The ManKind Project
What does it mean to be a modern, mature man? We're redefining mature masculinity for the 21st Century - and we want your help!
Leaders wanted. Men willing to step through fear and into the challenge of their lives. Men not afraid to revolt against repressive social norms, take off their masks and break through their personal barriers. Men ready to take real risks and step into their full power. Men not afraid to inhabit ALL the characteristics required of men in changing times; resiliency, integrity, courage, creativity, innovation, adaptability, compassion, empathy, radical self-responsibility, inclusivity, generosity and respect.
Yes, we scare some people. We fly in the face of rigid stereotypes about the "Sensitive New Age Man" AND the "Macho Man". We ask men to go right up to the edge - and beyond it - in a culture that seems to be comfortable with mediocrity and passivity from men. We ask men to stop living a vicarious adventure through their TV's and step into a real time adventure to win back their passion for life. We ask men to confront the real problems in their lives and to get 100% honest about who they are. Some men have a really hard time doing that. Many of us did too, but we took the risk anyway.
Source link for more of heretik's spamaghetti: more marketing hoopla (http://http://mankindproject.org/what-does-it-mean-be-modern-mature-man)
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 19, 2010, 12:09:10 PM
Quote from: "heretik wishes he"
The ManKind Project
What does it mean to be a modern, mature man? We're redefining mature masculinity for the 21st Century - and we want your help!
Leaders wanted. Men willing to step through fear and into the challenge of their lives. Men not afraid to revolt against repressive social norms, take off their masks and break through their personal barriers. Men ready to take real risks and step into their full power. Men not afraid to inhabit ALL the characteristics required of men in changing times; resiliency, integrity, courage, creativity, innovation, adaptability, compassion, empathy, radical self-responsibility, inclusivity, generosity and respect.
Yes, we scare some people. We fly in the face of rigid stereotypes about the "Sensitive New Age Man" AND the "Macho Man". We ask men to go right up to the edge - and beyond it - in a culture that seems to be comfortable with mediocrity and passivity from men. We ask men to stop living a vicarious adventure through their TV's and step into a real time adventure to win back their passion for life. We ask men to confront the real problems in their lives and to get 100% honest about who they are. Some men have a really hard time doing that. Many of us did too, but we took the risk anyway.
Source link for more of heretik's spamaghetti: more marketing hoopla (http://http://mankindproject.org/what-does-it-mean-be-modern-mature-man)
It's like a dare. They're implying that if guys don't join the He-Mankind Woman Haters Club that they're somehow inferior or weak. ::) What a crock of shit.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Samara on October 19, 2010, 12:17:06 PM
Just read Tom Mitchelson's article and couldn't help but laugh my ass off. Here is a guy who sees this wackery for exactly what it is. It's amazing how many people who feel stuck or impotent (all of us at some point, probably) seek help from obvious scams. The sad thing is that is was very reminiscent of CEDU and its offspring. The secrecy. The suppression of independent thought. The intense experentials designed to make you feel like you've transcended the mere mortal plane of mediocrity, ready to fly with new tools... the tools in this case being chanting and carrying your cock in a group and pushing your imaginary mother through the "human barrier" whatever the fuck that means.
Most shit in life can be solved or at least accepted through common sense and personal candor. No need to be guided by the Cult Quacks and Gurus. Jesus, people aren't even critical consumers of their own care - many shrinks are just Masters of the Obvious. No thank you - if I need help, I'll just consult my Psychic Canine Companion.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 19, 2010, 12:45:31 PM
Quote from: "Samara"
Just read Tom Mitchelson's article and couldn't help but laugh my ass off.
I know! I thought it was great, pics and all. :rofl:
Quote
Here is a guy who sees this wackery for exactly what it is. It's amazing how many people who feel stuck or impotent (all of us at some point, probably) seek help from obvious scams. The sad thing is that is was very reminiscent of CEDU and its offspring. The secrecy. The suppression of independent thought. The intense experentials designed to make you feel like you've transcended the mere mortal plane of mediocrity, ready to fly with new tools... the tools in this case being chanting and carrying your cock in a group and pushing your imaginary mother through the "human barrier" whatever the fuck that means.
Most shit in life can be solved or at least accepted through common sense and personal candor. No need to be guided by the Cult Quacks and Gurus. Jesus, people aren't even critical consumers of their own care - many shrinks are just Masters of the Obvious. No thank you - if I need help, I'll just consult my Psychic Canine Companion.
I really don't understand it in people who've been through a program as a kid. You'd think they'd run as far and as fast as they could away from anymore of that crap. I guess some people need to find a guru to tell them what to think and how to live.
Title: Re: "My (very) weird weekend with the naked woodland..."
Post by: Ursus on October 19, 2010, 01:06:42 PM
Quote from: "Samara"
The sad thing is that is was very reminiscent of CEDU and its offspring. The secrecy. The suppression of independent thought. The intense experentials designed to make you feel like you've transcended the mere mortal plane of mediocrity, ready to fly with new tools...
You might appreciate the facepalm I did upon reading this comment (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&start=105#p379173) to the Mitchelson article (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&start=105#p378746), emphasis added:
- Pained., North London, 13/3/2010 3:42
A valiant attempt to poke fun and laugh at this group but to be honest with you, I'm still not convinced by your story. I can see exactly how this can be of help to so many men who have been conditioned by society not to display inner emotions and feelings. We have also been hurt, emotionally as well as physically, as children and carry the scars of this with us throughout our lives.
A little help to heal a inner child cant hurt can it...?[/list][/list]
Title: Christopher Burke's PhD dissertation
Post by: Ursus on October 19, 2010, 02:20:09 PM
Going back to heretik's 2nd post (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&start=135#p384449) (of a 4 post spamfest from the MKP website):
Quote from: "heretik"
Mankind Project
American Journal of Community Psychology - Excerpt cda_displayimage.jpg
As an introduction to the kind of work that we do - and the value that we offer - here is a preamble section from a recent peer reviewed research thesis published in the American Journal of Community Psychology. The value of the work that the ManKind Project offers has been documented in multiple research studies and thesis presentations over the past 15 years. Currently there is also a long term study being conducted across the United States by the ManKind Project. Preliminary findings from this study will be presented at the upcoming 25th Anniversary Celebration in Louisville Kentucky on October 21-23, 2010. The Anniversary Celebration is open to the public. There will be nearly 30 workshops and talks presented over the course of 2 days.
Learn more about the 25th Anniversary at: http://anniversary.mkp.org/ (http://anniversary.mkp.org/) AMERICAN JOURNAL OF COMMUNITY PSYCHOLOGY
Volume 45, Numbers 1-2, 186-200, DOI: 10.1007/s10464-009-9283-3 ORIGINAL PAPER Healing Men and Community: Predictors of Outcome in a Men’s Initiatory and Support Organization
Christopher K. Burke, Kenneth I. Maton, Eric S. Mankowski and Clinton Anderson I. GENERALLY, WHAT IS ManKind Project?
Based upon the mobilization of peer rather than professional resources, the MKPI considers itself to be a grassroots response to the needs of contemporary men by providing an environment that fosters and encourages increased emotional availability, pro-social behavior, community and social support, and a clear sense of life purpose in a way that is congruent with, and affirming of, the empowerment and equality of women.[1] Another fundamental aspect of the MKPI is its emphasis on multiculturalism, with a mission statement that defines itself as ‘‘… a progressive men’s organization striving to be increasingly inclusive and affirming of cultural differences, especially with respect to color, class, sexual orientation, faith, age, ability, ethnicity, and nationality.’’[2] II. WHAT is the New Warrior Training Adventure (NWTA)?
As a general description, the TAW can be said to have two main components. The first is a well-designed structure that encourages the participants to behave in ways that traditional male paradigms discourage—being honest about how one’s behavior impacts others, having the courage to face and overcome difficult emotional issues, and being openly affirmative of other men. This is accomplished through standard procedures employed in other experiential workshops, with a strong focus on Gestalt and psychodramatic methodologies (e.g., group discussions, games, rituals, guided visualizations, journaling, and individual process work). The effectiveness of this aspect of the TAW appears not to be the result of any single, particularly unique method of intervention, but in its application of multiple established methods to confront and transform maladaptive male behaviors and beliefs.
The second component is the modeling, support and encouragement of the TAW staff, all of whom have previously attended a TAW. The weekend is staffed mostly by volunteer members of the MKPI, the majority of whom actually pay to staff the weekend (covering the cost of campsite rent and food, as well as scholarships for men with financial difficulties). An average TAW has 25 attendees, and is staffed by 34 men who provide services for them.[3] These staffers not only provide support and encouragement to the TAW enrollees, but also serve as examples of how to enact the nontraditional male roles and behaviors. III. What are the credentials of the Leaders of the NWTA?
To ensure that every TAW is run proficiently, the MKPI has established a ‘‘Leader’’ certification process. At least four certified leaders are on the staff of every TAW. MKPI leaders are paid for their services and assume full legal and ethical responsibility for the TAW. Leader certification does not constitute a professional license and is not regulated by any government agency. It is a qualification developed by the MKPI to ensure proficiency in managing and leading the logistics of a TAW and to ensure compliance with the MKPI’s standards for education and training. Open to any MKPI member, leader certification requires men to go through a rigorous training process, involving (1) numerous workshops to refine skills necessary to lead a TAW, (2) becoming an apprentice to a current leader, (3) staffing at least 20 TAWs, (4) facing at least three MKPI certification committees, and (5) numerous community volunteer activities. MKPI leader certification is a very time consuming and expensive process, and not all men who undergo leader training are granted leader certification.
Though possessing varied traits, MKPI leaders are selected based on (1) their ability to develop, manage and coordinate a complex group training structure, including overseeing in-depth personal work by individual men within a group setting and (2) their ability to model healthy and adaptive masculine behavior, a characteristic that authors have stated make them particularly effective at leading a TAW.[4] Given the importance of the MKPI leader to the overall process, and to prevent any negative outcomes or abuse that could come from that role, the organization closely monitors leader behaviors and their running of TAWs. On every TAW, at least 1 of the 4 leaders comes from a different center than the one running the weekend, helping to ensure a broad mixture of leader styles and personalities; a full report of the TAW is made to the MKPI by the outside leader. In addition, MKPI leaders must be re-certified annually, and the organization carefully reviews and monitors individual performances. IV. What is offered by MKP after the NWTA?
Following the TAW, men have the opportunity to join a small, supportive, peer-led ‘‘Integration Group’’ (I-Group), formed from the weekend participants. I-Groups begin meeting 2–4 weeks after the TAW. Group selection is based on either geographic location or availability on a given night of the week. Each I-Group goes through an 8-week facilitation period led by three or four I-Group facilitators, one of whom is a MKPI certified I-Group facilitator (similar to Leadership certification, but of a lesser intensity). The I-Group facilitation attempts to create an environment similar to the TAW and to help the group operate independently after the facilitation period ends. Post the facilitation period, I-Groups usually meet between two and four times a month for two and a half hours. They operate autonomously and without cost, similar in structure and function to other peer-led, self-help/mutual aid groups. The I-Groups continue meeting until its members decide to disband or the group stops meeting due to member attrition. V. What scientific research has been carried out on MKPI and its participants?
The MKPI has been the subject of five previous (unpublished) studies, all conducted by MKPI participants (due at least in part to the confidential nature of the TAW). These studies all suggest there are positive changes on the various constructs that researchers felt were germane to the MKPI experience, including an improved understanding of gender roles and increased male intimacy,[5] similar or better outcomes when compared to traditional therapy,[6] improved ability to cope with transition, loss, and unresolved issues from the past,[7] gaining a greater sense of spirituality, purpose and life meaning,[8] and improved social support[9]. In addition, preliminary research on I-Groups in the Washington, DC area suggests that they are effective in retaining members. One research study revealed a median I-Group survival time of 4.5 years (with 70% lasting at least 2 years), and a median length of individual participation of 26.2 months[10]. However, few conclusions can be drawn from these studies due to limitations in the research designs (e.g., small sample sizes, short term follow-up, no comparison samples) and because predictors of outcomes and potential mechanisms of influence generally were not examined. As such, the present research was undertaken to examine MKPI more thoroughly and rigorously, with a much longer longitudinal assessment period, a greater number of variables, a much larger sample, and use of both qualitative and quantitative data.
Re: An original paper published in the American Journal of Community Psychology, January 22, 2010 (online), entitled: “Healing Men and Community: Predictors of Outcome in a Men’s Initiatory and Support Organization, by Christopher K. Burke • Kenneth I. Maton • Eric S. Mankowski • Clinton Anderson – of which the text (but not section titles) is excerpted
[1] ManKind Project International 2005; see also, Mankowski et al. 2000b [2] ManKind Project International 2005 [3] Drury Heffernan, personal communication, March 17, 2008 [4] E.g. Segell 1999 [5] Hartman 1994; Levin 1997; Schulz 1997; Richard 1999 [6] Levin 1997; Richard 1999 [7] Schulz 1997; Richard 1999; Goll 2001 [8] Richard 1999; Goll 2001 [9] Barton 2003 [10] Mankowski et al. 2000a
It looks like the above has been lifted straight from what is currently displayed on MKP's homepage (scroll down past the video): http://mankindproject.org/ (http://mankindproject.org/)
The above referenced paper appears to be based, at least in part, on Christopher Burke's 356-page Ph.D. dissertation (2004, University of Maryland). This was previously mentioned in the Pathways (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=23476) thread, which is about an MKP offshoot for teens (primarily boys) that is currently active in Australia:
Originally posted (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=23476&p=302856#p302856) on 26 Dec 2007:
Quote from: "Ursus"
There is a 356 page PhD dissertation by a Christopher Kenneth Burke (2004, University of Maryland, Adviser Dr. Kenneth I. Maton), which is pretty much very pro-MKP from a cursory look at it. The paper contains a number of references which might be worth some looking into as well. This download is from a South African Social Services organization, who has seen fit to include it amongst supporting papers and other reference work for their "Fatherhood Project."
"Healing Men and Community: Predictors of Outcome in a Men's Initiatory and Support Organization" http://www.hsrc.ac.za/Document-104.phtml (http://www.hsrc.ac.za/Document-104.phtml)
[/list]
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: heretik on October 19, 2010, 02:23:33 PM
There are many stories about MKP, most when viewed from the outside look very weird. Why are men (as you say here, Samara and Anne) running around naked and bashing fictitious womens heads with clubs. :) I can only say we are not. I will say this in short, far to long have men been absent from their duties, we became lost. This is one way to regain the footing we gave up and be the men we are supposed to be. I have found women (a true woman) find me more attractive in a innate way.
#1
Korry · 10/17/2007 8:39:13 AM
I have been a proud member of MKP since 1999, and like Chris Vogel, I am also a journalist, but aside from what I see as poor research, a clear bias, and prose so sensationalistic that it would make Geraldo Rivera wince, one thing that strikes me is the curiously puritanical panic over nudity throughout the piece in what is supposed to be an alternative weekly. I mean, the title of the piece starts off with "Naked Men" as if we all supposed to be shocked, shocked! at the very idea of such, and the word "naked" then shows up eight more times, pejoratively. This, more than anything, shows up the depth of neuroticism in American culture over the human body, across the ideological spectrum, no matter how "progressive" such ostensibly alternative New Times franchises claim to be. That Vogel can not concieve of men getting naked together without imputing sexual transgressions is proof of that. Robert Bly's "Wild Man" is still too radical a notion for a people who are afraid of going through life by actually LIVING it.
#2
Anon · 12/15/2007 11:05:04 PM
I used to be an MKP member. I went through the NWTA back in 1992, before MKP was even founded. The New Warrior Network became the MKP a few years later, apparently for legal reasons (a company inside a company fares legal problems better) but also to show that it wasn't a one-trick-pony type of thing, and to broaden its appeal as well as make it more internationally portable. When I went through, it was intense, challenging, weird, exhausting, exhilarating, and transformative. I really wonder what sort of person I'd be today if I hadn't done it. I would probably still be very unhappy, timid, and repressed. The experience really was what I needed at the time and for the next 10 years, I was part of it and its weekly meetings, etc. As years went by though, and more and more people joined, some with complex and off-topic agendas, the whole point of the thing began to get murkier. There was a lot more vying for position, the typical B-S associated with, say, work life, and some really nutty dudes began showing up. I agree that there were people in the training doing stuff that was pretty advanced with trainees that may or may not have been ready for the experience. Most therapists don't get as deep as what happens in the first 1-2 hours at the training. And while it's true to say that perhaps they should, it is also true to say that such an event is no time for amateur hour. There were a couple times when I staffed that I felt that some men in positions of authority in the training were behaving in ways they really should not have been, and treated me or other men there in a way inconsistent with the stated goals of the training, to put it mildly. What the final straw for me was though was the thorough and seemingly intractable "muddying of the goals" I mentioned before. All sorts of new "protocols" were introduced that were a significant departure from the main focus of the organization as I had experienced it. This is not just the complaint of an old hand who likes things the way he has always seen them; these new exercises and "protocols" were really very controversial to say the least and focused intensely around the examination of ethnic identity issues and racism in society and in one's personal life. Such topics are important and have their place in self-examination, but this was not like adding 5% to something, but more like 50%. And, it was done with no consultation with the membership at large and seemed to be pursued in an aggressive and positively antagonistic way. When I realized that this seemed to be a change that was going to happen with or without my approval or the approval of others at large, I decided it was time for me to move on. I had other issues, too, but this was the biggest one. Since then, I have had little or no contact with other MKP members, mostly because we have just gone off our own ways in life. Some of the friends I made through MKP agreed with my opinion of things or came to their own similar conclusions and also just "moved on". It was a sad decision to make; I felt like something very important and wonderful, and needed for so many men and their loved ones, was being spoiled. I comforted myself with the realization that all new pursuits, if they are well-received and establish new ways of viewing the world and one's place in society, eventually become institutions (not unlike government, religion, etc.). And all institutions without exception become corrupt-- ie, the reason they are formed eventually gets lost in politics and agendas and soon it exists merely as an end unto itself. No reason to believe this was any exception, but it was a sad day when I knew I couldn't remain and be "in integrity" with myself. Which brings me to today, 5 years later-- I just found out about this story and indeed I am sorry to see it has arisen. I can't say though I am surprised; the experience is very intense and frankly I am amazed the NWTA hasn't come under this level of public scrutiny due ot such an event before now. Obviously I don't know all the details and have only this article to go by, but I do know this: such an event will have repercussions and its effects will lead to some serious soul-searching among the leadership. If not, then there's something wrong. But no matter, I hope that justice is served in whatever way it should be, and it saddens me to see yet again something that was born of a great need and desire to be of help to men and indeed humanity in general is having serious troubles. I am more saddened though at the loss of this man and the impact it has had on his family and community. Nothing but tragedy in this story-- no winners as it were. All of it bad for everyone.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 19, 2010, 02:30:43 PM
Quote from: "heretik"
There are many stories about MKP, most when viewed from the outside look very weird. Why are men (as you say here, Samara and Anne) running around naked and bashing fictitious womens heads with clubs. :) I can only say we are not. I will say this in short, far to long have men been absent from their duties, we became lost. This is one way to regain the footing we gave up and be the men we are supposed to be. I have found women (a true woman) find me more attractive in a innate way.
All I can tell you is that the 1/2 dozen or so guys I've spoken with that have attended these "workshops" have had nothing but bad things to say about it. They said it felt very cult-like and that there was a ton of women bashing in them. They said it seemed like the leader(s) had some bad experiences with women and didn't know how to deal with it other than to blame society and proclaim that women had "stolen their masculinity". And that they're very, very angry about the ERA and see it as the beginning of the downfall of their (men's) reign.
Title: Re: Christopher Burke's PhD dissertation
Post by: heretik on October 19, 2010, 02:41:37 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Going back to heretik's 2nd post (of a 4 post spamfest from the MKP website):
Quote from: "heretik"
Mankind Project
American Journal of Community Psychology - Excerpt cda_displayimage.jpg
As an introduction to the kind of work that we do - and the value that we offer - here is a preamble section from a recent peer reviewed research thesis published in the American Journal of Community Psychology. The value of the work that the ManKind Project offers has been documented in multiple research studies and thesis presentations over the past 15 years. Currently there is also a long term study being conducted across the United States by the ManKind Project. Preliminary findings from this study will be presented at the upcoming 25th Anniversary Celebration in Louisville Kentucky on October 21-23, 2010. The Anniversary Celebration is open to the public. There will be nearly 30 workshops and talks presented over the course of 2 days.
Learn more about the 25th Anniversary at: http://anniversary.mkp.org/ (http://anniversary.mkp.org/) AMERICAN JOURNAL OF COMMUNITY PSYCHOLOGY
Volume 45, Numbers 1-2, 186-200, DOI: 10.1007/s10464-009-9283-3 ORIGINAL PAPER Healing Men and Community: Predictors of Outcome in a Men’s Initiatory and Support Organization
Christopher K. Burke, Kenneth I. Maton, Eric S. Mankowski and Clinton Anderson I. GENERALLY, WHAT IS ManKind Project?
Based upon the mobilization of peer rather than professional resources, the MKPI considers itself to be a grassroots response to the needs of contemporary men by providing an environment that fosters and encourages increased emotional availability, pro-social behavior, community and social support, and a clear sense of life purpose in a way that is congruent with, and affirming of, the empowerment and equality of women.[1] Another fundamental aspect of the MKPI is its emphasis on multiculturalism, with a mission statement that defines itself as ‘‘… a progressive men’s organization striving to be increasingly inclusive and affirming of cultural differences, especially with respect to color, class, sexual orientation, faith, age, ability, ethnicity, and nationality.’’[2] II. WHAT is the New Warrior Training Adventure (NWTA)?
As a general description, the TAW can be said to have two main components. The first is a well-designed structure that encourages the participants to behave in ways that traditional male paradigms discourage—being honest about how one’s behavior impacts others, having the courage to face and overcome difficult emotional issues, and being openly affirmative of other men. This is accomplished through standard procedures employed in other experiential workshops, with a strong focus on Gestalt and psychodramatic methodologies (e.g., group discussions, games, rituals, guided visualizations, journaling, and individual process work). The effectiveness of this aspect of the TAW appears not to be the result of any single, particularly unique method of intervention, but in its application of multiple established methods to confront and transform maladaptive male behaviors and beliefs.
The second component is the modeling, support and encouragement of the TAW staff, all of whom have previously attended a TAW. The weekend is staffed mostly by volunteer members of the MKPI, the majority of whom actually pay to staff the weekend (covering the cost of campsite rent and food, as well as scholarships for men with financial difficulties). An average TAW has 25 attendees, and is staffed by 34 men who provide services for them.[3] These staffers not only provide support and encouragement to the TAW enrollees, but also serve as examples of how to enact the nontraditional male roles and behaviors. III. What are the credentials of the Leaders of the NWTA?
To ensure that every TAW is run proficiently, the MKPI has established a ‘‘Leader’’ certification process. At least four certified leaders are on the staff of every TAW. MKPI leaders are paid for their services and assume full legal and ethical responsibility for the TAW. Leader certification does not constitute a professional license and is not regulated by any government agency. It is a qualification developed by the MKPI to ensure proficiency in managing and leading the logistics of a TAW and to ensure compliance with the MKPI’s standards for education and training. Open to any MKPI member, leader certification requires men to go through a rigorous training process, involving (1) numerous workshops to refine skills necessary to lead a TAW, (2) becoming an apprentice to a current leader, (3) staffing at least 20 TAWs, (4) facing at least three MKPI certification committees, and (5) numerous community volunteer activities. MKPI leader certification is a very time consuming and expensive process, and not all men who undergo leader training are granted leader certification.
Though possessing varied traits, MKPI leaders are selected based on (1) their ability to develop, manage and coordinate a complex group training structure, including overseeing in-depth personal work by individual men within a group setting and (2) their ability to model healthy and adaptive masculine behavior, a characteristic that authors have stated make them particularly effective at leading a TAW.[4] Given the importance of the MKPI leader to the overall process, and to prevent any negative outcomes or abuse that could come from that role, the organization closely monitors leader behaviors and their running of TAWs. On every TAW, at least 1 of the 4 leaders comes from a different center than the one running the weekend, helping to ensure a broad mixture of leader styles and personalities; a full report of the TAW is made to the MKPI by the outside leader. In addition, MKPI leaders must be re-certified annually, and the organization carefully reviews and monitors individual performances. IV. What is offered by MKP after the NWTA?
Following the TAW, men have the opportunity to join a small, supportive, peer-led ‘‘Integration Group’’ (I-Group), formed from the weekend participants. I-Groups begin meeting 2–4 weeks after the TAW. Group selection is based on either geographic location or availability on a given night of the week. Each I-Group goes through an 8-week facilitation period led by three or four I-Group facilitators, one of whom is a MKPI certified I-Group facilitator (similar to Leadership certification, but of a lesser intensity). The I-Group facilitation attempts to create an environment similar to the TAW and to help the group operate independently after the facilitation period ends. Post the facilitation period, I-Groups usually meet between two and four times a month for two and a half hours. They operate autonomously and without cost, similar in structure and function to other peer-led, self-help/mutual aid groups. The I-Groups continue meeting until its members decide to disband or the group stops meeting due to member attrition. V. What scientific research has been carried out on MKPI and its participants?
The MKPI has been the subject of five previous (unpublished) studies, all conducted by MKPI participants (due at least in part to the confidential nature of the TAW). These studies all suggest there are positive changes on the various constructs that researchers felt were germane to the MKPI experience, including an improved understanding of gender roles and increased male intimacy,[5] similar or better outcomes when compared to traditional therapy,[6] improved ability to cope with transition, loss, and unresolved issues from the past,[7] gaining a greater sense of spirituality, purpose and life meaning,[8] and improved social support[9]. In addition, preliminary research on I-Groups in the Washington, DC area suggests that they are effective in retaining members. One research study revealed a median I-Group survival time of 4.5 years (with 70% lasting at least 2 years), and a median length of individual participation of 26.2 months[10]. However, few conclusions can be drawn from these studies due to limitations in the research designs (e.g., small sample sizes, short term follow-up, no comparison samples) and because predictors of outcomes and potential mechanisms of influence generally were not examined. As such, the present research was undertaken to examine MKPI more thoroughly and rigorously, with a much longer longitudinal assessment period, a greater number of variables, a much larger sample, and use of both qualitative and quantitative data.
Re: An original paper published in the American Journal of Community Psychology, January 22, 2010 (online), entitled: “Healing Men and Community: Predictors of Outcome in a Men’s Initiatory and Support Organization, by Christopher K. Burke • Kenneth I. Maton • Eric S. Mankowski • Clinton Anderson – of which the text (but not section titles) is excerpted
[1] ManKind Project International 2005; see also, Mankowski et al. 2000b [2] ManKind Project International 2005 [3] Drury Heffernan, personal communication, March 17, 2008 [4] E.g. Segell 1999 [5] Hartman 1994; Levin 1997; Schulz 1997; Richard 1999 [6] Levin 1997; Richard 1999 [7] Schulz 1997; Richard 1999; Goll 2001 [8] Richard 1999; Goll 2001 [9] Barton 2003 [10] Mankowski et al. 2000a
The above appears to have been lifted straight from what is currently displayed on MKP's homepage (scroll down past the video): http://mankindproject.org/ (http://mankindproject.org/)
The above referenced paper appears to be based, at least in part, on Christopher Burke's 356-page Ph.D. dissertation (2004, University of Maryland). This was previously mentioned in the Pathways (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=23476) thread, which is about an MKP offshoot for teens (primarily boys) that is currently active in Australia:
Originally posted (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=23476&p=302856#p302856) on 26 Dec 2007:
Quote from: "Ursus"
There is a 356 page PhD dissertation by a Christopher Kenneth Burke (2004, University of Maryland, Adviser Dr. Kenneth I. Maton), which is pretty much very pro-MKP from a cursory look at it. The paper contains a number of references which might be worth some looking into as well. This download is from a South African Social Services organization, who has seen fit to include it amongst supporting papers and other reference work for their "Fatherhood Project."
"Healing Men and Community: Predictors of Outcome in a Men's Initiatory and Support Organization" http://www.hsrc.ac.za/Document-104.phtml (http://www.hsrc.ac.za/Document-104.phtml)
[/list]
Ursidae, (great name) thanks for pointing this info out to the masses. I see you have a education concerning MKP. MkP is not the only course men can take, there are many. I would hope your "cursory look" would not blind you to the vast wealth of info being offered. Mr Burke's dissertation is all worth looking into if for nothing else, good educational reading. Are you sure Pathways, Australia is still a viable business. I heard it was inactive, could be wrong though.
Sorry about the link, I guess I just supposed everyone here knew so much about MKP, you would know where these articles came from. Why you are calling them spam I have no idea, I am not trying to sell. My point was to educate. It seemed that very little information about MKP was out there, so I nudged some information to the front.
Title: Re: Christopher Burke's PhD dissertation
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 19, 2010, 02:46:30 PM
Quote from: "heretik"
Ursidae, (great name) thanks for pointing this info out to the masses. I see you have a education concerning MKP. MkP is not the only course men can take, there are many. I would hope your "cursory look" would not blind you to the vast wealth of info being offered. Mr Burke's dissertation is all worth looking into if for nothing else, good educational reading. Are you sure Pathways, Australia is still a viable business. I heard it was inactive, could be wrong though.
Sorry about the link, I guess I just supposed everyone here knew so much about MKP, you would know where these articles came from. Why you are calling them spam I have no idea, I am not trying to sell. My point was to educate. It seemed that very little information about MKP was out there, so I nudged some information to the front.
What do you think about the deaths and James Ray's reaction to them?
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: heretik on October 19, 2010, 02:55:28 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "heretik"
There are many stories about MKP, most when viewed from the outside look very weird. Why are men (as you say here, Samara and Anne) running around naked and bashing fictitious womens heads with clubs. :) I can only say we are not. I will say this in short, far to long have men been absent from their duties, we became lost. This is one way to regain the footing we gave up and be the men we are supposed to be. I have found women (a true woman) find me more attractive in a innate way.
All I can tell you is that the 1/2 dozen or so guys I've spoken with that have attended these "workshops" have had nothing but bad things to say about it. They said it felt very cult-like and that there was a ton of women bashing in them. They said it seemed like the leader(s) had some bad experiences with women and didn't know how to deal with it other than to blame society and proclaim that women had "stolen their masculinity". And that they're very, very angry about the ERA and see it as the beginning of the downfall of their (men's) reign.
Well then, I would say to you keep your men far away from MKP, especially from the state that your speaking from and all other states. Because they are definitely experiencing a workshop that is not healthy. Very sad to hear this. I would like to get the workshops they attended please, not names, just the workshop. The state and maybe the town, that should be enough. Why would we want these workshops to continue in these places if the entire workshop has gone off in another direction not intended by MKP. Thanks Anne, for pointing this out. Please help me to gather this information, if you would. PM me if you would like with the information. Men will always have their issues with women as women with men. What has not been healthy for so long is the reactions men have to the problems. The focus in my opinion should stay with me if I am troubled, especially if I do not know what is disturbance within me. Women find communicating with men much more advantageous if we are able to collectively broker the problems. (so to speak) Thanks
Title: Re: Christopher Burke's PhD dissertation
Post by: heretik on October 19, 2010, 03:00:44 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "heretik"
Ursidae, (great name) thanks for pointing this info out to the masses. I see you have a education concerning MKP. MkP is not the only course men can take, there are many. I would hope your "cursory look" would not blind you to the vast wealth of info being offered. Mr Burke's dissertation is all worth looking into if for nothing else, good educational reading. Are you sure Pathways, Australia is still a viable business. I heard it was inactive, could be wrong though.
Sorry about the link, I guess I just supposed everyone here knew so much about MKP, you would know where these articles came from. Why you are calling them spam I have no idea, I am not trying to sell. My point was to educate. It seemed that very little information about MKP was out there, so I nudged some information to the front.
What do you think about the deaths and James Ray's reaction to them?
I have read very little about James Ray personally, I do not know of his work. All I know is what I have read in the media outlets and subtle conversations friends of mine have had about these tragedies that occurred. Anne, I will say this. I am not for a one man show, I need a collective of people who are guiding and have equal power.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 19, 2010, 03:01:13 PM
Quote from: "heretik"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "heretik"
There are many stories about MKP, most when viewed from the outside look very weird. Why are men (as you say here, Samara and Anne) running around naked and bashing fictitious womens heads with clubs. :) I can only say we are not. I will say this in short, far to long have men been absent from their duties, we became lost. This is one way to regain the footing we gave up and be the men we are supposed to be. I have found women (a true woman) find me more attractive in a innate way.
All I can tell you is that the 1/2 dozen or so guys I've spoken with that have attended these "workshops" have had nothing but bad things to say about it. They said it felt very cult-like and that there was a ton of women bashing in them. They said it seemed like the leader(s) had some bad experiences with women and didn't know how to deal with it other than to blame society and proclaim that women had "stolen their masculinity". And that they're very, very angry about the ERA and see it as the beginning of the downfall of their (men's) reign.
Well then, I would say to you keep your men far away from MKP, especially from the state that your speaking from and all other states. Because they are definitely experiencing a workshop that is not healthy. Very sad to hear this. I would like to get the workshops they attended please, not names, just the workshop. The state and maybe the town, that should be enough. Why would we want these workshops to continue in these places if the entire workshop has gone off in another direction not intended by MKP.
Are you affiliated with MKP?
Quote
Thanks Anne, for pointing this out. Please help me to gather this information, if you would. PM me if you would like with the information. Men will always have their issues with women as women with men. What has not been healthy for so long is the reactions men have to the problems. The focus in my opinion should stay with me if I am troubled, especially if I do not know what is disturbance within me. Women find communicating with men much more advantageous if we are able to collectively broker the problems. (so to speak) Thanks
I dunno.....I've been blessed with an amazing husband. He can be annoying sometimes, but communication isn't really a problem between us. He's put up with me being a raging lunatic when I was first learning about what Straight did to me and he was more patient and understanding than I could ever ask for.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: heretik on October 19, 2010, 03:11:09 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "heretik"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "heretik"
There are many stories about MKP, most when viewed from the outside look very weird. Why are men (as you say here, Samara and Anne) running around naked and bashing fictitious womens heads with clubs. :) I can only say we are not. I will say this in short, far to long have men been absent from their duties, we became lost. This is one way to regain the footing we gave up and be the men we are supposed to be. I have found women (a true woman) find me more attractive in a innate way.
All I can tell you is that the 1/2 dozen or so guys I've spoken with that have attended these "workshops" have had nothing but bad things to say about it. They said it felt very cult-like and that there was a ton of women bashing in them. They said it seemed like the leader(s) had some bad experiences with women and didn't know how to deal with it other than to blame society and proclaim that women had "stolen their masculinity". And that they're very, very angry about the ERA and see it as the beginning of the downfall of their (men's) reign.
Well then, I would say to you keep your men far away from MKP, especially from the state that your speaking from and all other states. Because they are definitely experiencing a workshop that is not healthy. Very sad to hear this. I would like to get the workshops they attended please, not names, just the workshop. The state and maybe the town, that should be enough. Why would we want these workshops to continue in these places if the entire workshop has gone off in another direction not intended by MKP.
Are you affiliated with MKP?
Quote
Thanks Anne, for pointing this out. Please help me to gather this information, if you would. PM me if you would like with the information. Men will always have their issues with women as women with men. What has not been healthy for so long is the reactions men have to the problems. The focus in my opinion should stay with me if I am troubled, especially if I do not know what is disturbance within me. Women find communicating with men much more advantageous if we are able to collectively broker the problems. (so to speak) Thanks
I dunno.....I've been blessed with an amazing husband. He can be annoying sometimes, but communication isn't really a problem between us. He's put up with me being a raging lunatic when I was first learning about what Straight did to me and he was more patient and understanding than I could ever ask for.
The "WE" was a statement for you and I. Meaning why would Anne and heretik want these workshops going on. No I am not a employee. I know several people that would be very interested in your comments you made here today. I was wondering if I could get the information I asked for, Anne.
Being blessed with an amazing husband is wonderful, Salute!! as I think you know is not the rule but the exception. Men want to change that, more and more men are saying every day, how can I be a better husband, Dad, friend ect....
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Samara on October 19, 2010, 03:21:35 PM
But why do men need a program to be men? Why would a program need NDA's and encounter groups? Why not BBQ, have a beer, watch a game, pay your bills, be generally honest and responsible, appreciate your S.O, communicate respectfully and fuck happily? It's not really that hard.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: heretik on October 19, 2010, 03:30:05 PM
Quote from: "Samara"
But why do men need a program to be men? Why would a program need NDA's and encounter groups? Why not BBQ, have a beer, watch a game, pay your bills, be generally honest and responsible, appreciate your S.O, communicate respectfully and fuck happily? It's not really that hard.
First let me ask you a few questions. 1. have kids 2. married 3. divorced 4. never married but have kids 5. was father of kids a decent man to his children. 6. was he a good man to you.
your answers should tell you, Samara. If it wasn't that hard everyone would be doing it.
Title: MKP & Pathways Foundation
Post by: Ursus on October 19, 2010, 03:49:28 PM
Quote from: "heretik"
Are you sure Pathways, Australia is still a viable business. I heard it was inactive, could be wrong though.
It would appear that Pathways is still quite active: http://www.pathwaysfoundation.com.au/ (http://www.pathwaysfoundation.com.au/)
They've reduced the visibility of their association with the Mankind Project since the last time I was on their website... but MKP still leads the list on their links page (http://http://www.pathwaysfoundation.com.au/UsefulLink.aspx).
The MKPgo (http://http://www.mkpgo.com/) website, affiliated/associated with the Mankind Project - Australia, lists Pathways Foundation as well as a few other such or similar organizations:
SUPPORT GROUP LINKS
Get Real - For Youth (http://http://www.getreal4youth.com/Get_Real/Schedule.html) [li]Youth In Search (http://http://www.youthinsearch.org/)
Women Within (http://http://www.wwaustralia.org/)
The Pathways Foundation for teenagers (http://http://www.pathwaysfoundation.com.au/)
[/li][/list]
Fwiw, Women Within was founded by Char Tosi, wife of Rich Tosi, one of the co-founders of MKP. From what I've read, Women Within is alleged or intended to be the female equivalent to MKP.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Samara on October 19, 2010, 03:51:59 PM
I've been through lots of things and you know what? What it comes down to is pretty simple. People fight the simple. If you are alone and not responsible for anyone but yourself, just live your life how you see fit and don't hurt anyone. You can be free AND responsible and honest. If you are responsible for others, it is more work. It can be a struggle sometimes. Accept it and grow the fuck up.
People know what they should be doing; they just don't want to admit it. Because then you have to step up to the plate.
And, again: Why would a program need NDA's and encounter groups? No "support" group should require an NDA. (Non disclosure agreement)
But as I've said: I don't care what consenting adults do as long as they "first, do no harm." But obviously, some of these groups are scams. It's not terrible for unfulfilled men to have access to the pros and the cons before they drop their bucks and possibly their dignity along with their clothing. If it turns out great, and the bad reviews are unfounded, then no harm, no foul. But it is good to be have information and a few quick tips in case your weekend veers toward the cautionary tales.
Just like you'd look up reviews for a car, an appliance, or a trip.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: heretik on October 19, 2010, 05:23:27 PM
Quote from: "Samara"
I've been through lots of things and you know what? What it comes down to is pretty simple. People fight the simple. If you are alone and not responsible for anyone but yourself, just live your life how you see fit and don't hurt anyone. You can be free AND responsible and honest. If you are responsible for others, it is more work. It can be a struggle sometimes. Accept it and grow the fuck up.
People know what they should be doing; they just don't want to admit it. Because then you have to step up to the plate.
And, again: Why would a program need NDA's and encounter groups? No "support" group should require an NDA. (Non disclosure agreement)
But as I've said: I don't care what consenting adults do as long as they "first, do no harm." But obviously, some of these groups are scams. It's not terrible for unfulfilled men to have access to the pros and the cons before they drop their bucks and possibly their dignity along with their clothing. If it turns out great, and the bad reviews are unfounded, then no harm, no foul. But it is good to be have information and a few quick tips in case your weekend veers toward the cautionary tales.
Just like you'd look up reviews for a car, an appliance, or a trip.
I see you did not want to answer the questions. Alright you don't have to. I think you see what I mean though, concerning men. Why are men dropping their clothing, why is being naked such a issue here, are you not comfortable in your nakedness. Do you not find your disrobed body beautiful. There is no shame attached to being naked unless you place it there. It does not really make a difference what society/western culture has taught you. To much American culture is tied to the body (the look, appeal ect..) it is shallow. Why are we having a issue with adult consenting men inviting in new challenges. There is more information about the weekend then is being let on here. Men are not going into this weekend blind, without a level of knowledge concerning what they may face. One other point. I am puzzled by the similarities being placed on MKP by the three of you. I know the three of you have first hand knowledge of programs, especially the ones you attended. Yet I have not read where any of you have ever attended a workshop for men or the equivalent for women. Now, from reading your prior posts I am under the assumption that because you went through a program and maybe some of the exercises preformed at the workshop resemble your LGAT's or group encounters, you have a unique perception. Ursus has tied Hyde School into MKP and has made a determination that this has influence over Hyde School in some way. I am not sure your perception is accurate, we are adults, most of us are of ages around 40-50, with a small percentage in their late 20's and 30's. I can understand the anger coming from men after the workshop, especially the men that had a ruff time and really felt MKP was not for them. The weekend workshop, I will not lie is one tough in your face constantly demanding weekend. Yes, people are told about the weekend as much as you can but still you really can not explain enough to prepare one for this weekend. Like I said it is brutal. Then you come out the other end and you feel weightless, like a 6 hour rolfing massage you levitate after your done. Have you ever ran a marathon, biked long distance, worked incredibly long hours to get a project done, stayed up night after night with a sick baby, well then you know. Try all of this in a weekend.... :rofl: only kidding but close. Just think guys if you had never been introduced to any kind of dynamic like this before in your life, at least you three have the benefit of experiencing something close but it is not close enough. In this case you have a choice go further or stop, yes there are people pushing you, that is part of life but for once in their life for many men they experince their limits. It is awesome. I'll get back.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: heretik on October 19, 2010, 05:30:00 PM
duplicate.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Samara on October 19, 2010, 09:01:49 PM
Uh, Heretik, I don't care if people want to hang out naked. My post is not remotely anti-nudity. ???? You are really making a mountain out of a molehill here.
I simply said "buyer beware." Big Deal.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Samara on October 19, 2010, 09:03:16 PM
Uh, Heretik, I don't care if people want to hang out naked. My post is not remotely anti-nudity. !!!! ???? You are really making a mountain out of a molehill here.
I simply said "buyer beware about group psychodynamics." Big Deal.
And another thing: Who were you before Heretik, because I have a feeling this is a new name, same shit scenario.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: heretik on October 20, 2010, 07:26:57 PM
Quote from: "Samara"
Uh, Heretik, I don't care if people want to hang out naked. My post is not remotely anti-nudity. !!!! ???? You are really making a mountain out of a molehill here.
I simply said "buyer beware about group psychodynamics." Big Deal.
And another thing: Who were you before Heretik, because I have a feeling this is a new name, same shit scenario.
Nope! I have no idea what your talking about here with this last comment or why it was even necessary. Yes, I have known a couple of people who have posted here but what does that have to do with me. As far as I know they are gone, I am here. I hope we can have mutual respect for one another, I see that is not always at a premium here.
I would rather talk about the topic. You mentioned group dynamics which is a interesting subject. Would you please elaborate more on this (in so far as it deals with the MKP weekend workshop) when you have a chance. If by chance you have not the knowledge concerning the MKP weekend can you just elaborate anyway on what you may be able to gather is going on. Anne and yourself have made several comments in your recent posts and it has sparked questions for me. This is why I wrote about my concerns for your comments about men nudity.
Thanks, nice talking with you Samara.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Samara on October 20, 2010, 08:05:55 PM
I was being irreverent about the naked stuff. I don't care about all that.
I was referring to the article by Mitchelson. The NDA's and psychodramas. The fact that a group would require secrecy raises red flags for the obvious reasons. I have not been a member of this group. To be honest, I'm not a group membership kind of gal. (Although I really should sign up for Costco.) I've simply never subscribed to any set ideology and tend to prefer direct, no BS experiences over LGAT experentials. I just know I would not participate in anything that required me to give up autonomy, subscribe to group think, unchallenged, sign NDA's and forfeit my own safe mode of communication. I also could never follow blindly some guru-leader.
But, if you received something of value from MK, by all means, share. I don't know much about it.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: heretik on October 20, 2010, 09:03:12 PM
Quote from: "Samara"
I was being irreverent about the naked stuff. I don't care about all that.
I was referring to the article by Mitchelson. The NDA's and psychodramas. The fact that a group would require secrecy raises red flags for the obvious reasons. I have not been a member of this group. To be honest, I'm not a group membership kind of gal. (Although I really should sign up for Costco.) I've simply never subscribed to any set ideology and tend to prefer direct, no BS experiences over LGAT experentials. I just know I would not participate in anything that required me to give up autonomy, subscribe to group think, unchallenged, sign NDA's and forfeit my own safe mode of communication. I also could never follow blindly some guru-leader.
But, if you received something of value from MK, by all means, share. I don't know much about it.
Hey, thanks for commenting. I am new to this so by all means if I ask to many questions tell me. I am not afraid to answer questions myself. MK, is and was for me a educational experience, I was stuck in a big way and that weekend help with that. There was maybe 45 men of which I knew personally (5), knew off (15) and the rest were friends or close acquaintances of everyone. So it was a close intimate weekend. I know for a fact that is not the experience 95% have. I will comment more on this tomorrow, I am tired and have a throbbing headache. take care...
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 21, 2010, 11:57:06 AM
Quote from: "heretik"
The "WE" was a statement for you and I. Meaning why would Anne and heretik want these workshops going on. No I am not a employee. I know several people that would be very interested in your comments you made here today. I was wondering if I could get the information I asked for, Anne.
Being blessed with an amazing husband is wonderful, Salute!! as I think you know is not the rule but the exception. Men want to change that, more and more men are saying every day, how can I be a better husband, Dad, friend ect....
I'll try and find out what you're asking for. Some of the conversations were online and two of them just kinda happened when I was out having drinks with a few friends. Some guy brought it up and we started talking about it, but I don't recall where these workshops (that might not even be the correct term, more so my lack of a better one but it did include the sweatlodge thing) took place, or if the guy even mentioned it.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: heretik on October 21, 2010, 04:03:28 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "heretik"
The "WE" was a statement for you and I. Meaning why would Anne and heretik want these workshops going on. No I am not a employee. I know several people that would be very interested in your comments you made here today. I was wondering if I could get the information I asked for, Anne.
Being blessed with an amazing husband is wonderful, Salute!! as I think you know is not the rule but the exception. Men want to change that, more and more men are saying every day, how can I be a better husband, Dad, friend ect....
I'll try and find out what you're asking for. Some of the conversations were online and two of them just kinda happened when I was out having drinks with a few friends. Some guy brought it up and we started talking about it, but I don't recall where these workshops (that might not even be the correct term, more so my lack of a better one but it did include the sweatlodge thing) took place, or if the guy even mentioned it.
Thank you Anne. I have noticed your posts in other threads especially the thread concerning "compliance", you write a compelling story. (I know off topic, just wanted to say.) Back to the topic and your response. Yes, the weekend does have a "sweat" towards the end. You are asked to bring in the burdens of others, the pain of others and to ask, "mother earth" to help you with this pain you carry for others. I at first had a hard time understanding this concept, primarily because I came to each of my first 10 sweats with so much of my own pain but as time moved and my pain subsided I began to think of others and there burdens. I wanted to help in whatever way I could, some who I loved, I wanted to carry there pain with them. I became more intimate with people and nature through these sweats (which now are literally in the hundreds). I know this probably sounds weird Anne but this worked for me. Sitting in some Psychiatrist's office just wasn't working for me, I needed to be connected holistically. The natural earth made this possible for me. Large Group Awarness Therapy can be therapeutic in so far as serving to restore good health, being healthy and promoting recovery from unhappiness. This would be the LGAT's I have encountered in workshops I support. Yes MKP does have aggressive in your face LGAT's, I am not interested in those particularly. They just don't appeal to me because of my past issues, so I would not ascribe to them but I also can't say they don't work for others. They do, I have witnessed this.
Till later.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Samara on October 21, 2010, 04:15:24 PM
Heretik: Just curious about the following - not in a rancorous way. What about: 1. NDA's 2. No way out 3. Blind adherence to the weekend "program" 4. Does it use ridicule and humiliation to coerce change? 5. Does it try and force you to accept their interpretation of your reality or past events?
Can you challenge or opt out if you disagree or something just isn't jibing for you? Can you honestly the leader is not some narcissist with Guru Fantasies?
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: heretik on October 21, 2010, 04:21:49 PM
Quote from: "Samara"
Heretik: Just curious about the following - not in a rancorous way. What about: 1. NDA's 2. No way out 3. Blind adherence to the weekend "program" 4. Does it use ridicule and humiliation to coerce change? 5. Does it try and force you to accept their interpretation of your reality or past events?
Can you challenge or opt out if you disagree or something just isn't jibing for you? Can you honestly the leader is not some narcissist with Guru Fantasies?
Samara, I will be back later tonight to answer. OK. Have to go for now. See ya.
Title: sweats numbering "literally in the hundreds"
Post by: Ursus on October 21, 2010, 05:10:25 PM
Quote from: "heretik"
Quote from: "Samara"
Heretik: Just curious about the following - not in a rancorous way. What about: 1. NDA's 2. No way out 3. Blind adherence to the weekend "program" 4. Does it use ridicule and humiliation to coerce change? 5. Does it try and force you to accept their interpretation of your reality or past events?
Can you challenge or opt out if you disagree or something just isn't jibing for you? Can you honestly the leader is not some narcissist with Guru Fantasies?
Samara, I will be back later tonight to answer. OK. Have to go for now. See ya.
Yes yes. Better do some more fact-checking first ... with some of yer "warrior" friends who are a lil more in the know, eh?
Speaking of spin...
Quote from: "heretik"
Yes, the weekend does have a "sweat" towards the end. You are asked to bring in the burdens of others, the pain of others and to ask, "mother earth" to help you with this pain you carry for others. I at first had a hard time understanding this concept, primarily because I came to each of my first 10 sweats with so much of my own pain but as time moved and my pain subsided I began to think of others and there burdens. I wanted to help in whatever way I could, some who I loved, I wanted to carry there pain with them. I became more intimate with people and nature through these sweats (which now are literally in the hundreds).
Hundreds??!! Over what period of time? Even for, say, a period of a decade, "hundreds" translates into at least twenty per year, which is generally not the pace opted for when it comes to ruminating on "deep spiritual insights," let alone experiencing "6 hour rolfing massages" with subsequent delusions of levitation as a bonus.
That is... unless you're addicted to it! Are you SURE your electrolytes are still in balance??! :D Altered states can be achieved through a variety of ways and means, not necessarily dependent on the imbibing of narcotic substances...
Quote from: "heretik"
Yes, people are told about the weekend as much as you can but still you really can not explain enough to prepare one for this weekend. Like I said it is brutal. Then you come out the other end and you feel weightless, like a 6 hour rolfing massage you levitate after your done. Have you ever ran a marathon, biked long distance, worked incredibly long hours to get a project done, stayed up night after night with a sick baby, well then you know. Try all of this in a weekend.... :rofl: only kidding but close.
Title: MKP's NWTA / TAW - therapeutic benefits
Post by: Ursus on October 21, 2010, 05:44:22 PM
Along similar lines of inquiry...
Quote from: "heretik"
Sitting in some Psychiatrist's office just wasn't working for me, I needed to be connected holistically. The natural earth made this possible for me. Large Group Awarness Therapy can be therapeutic in so far as serving to restore good health, being healthy and promoting recovery from unhappiness. This would be the LGAT's I have encountered in workshops I support. Yes MKP does have aggressive in your face LGAT's, I am not interested in those particularly. They just don't appeal to me because of my past issues, so I would not ascribe to them but I also can't say they don't work for others. They do, I have witnessed this.
Gee. I had always understood LGAT to stand for Large Group Awareness Training... Could you possibly explain to me how the Mankind Project equates "training" with "therapy?"
Moreover, could you go into a lil more depth about the so-called therapeutic benefits? Do you believe that MKP considers their NWTA or TAW to confer benefits or insights analogous to those obtained through therapy, as your post above states vis a vis your own experience?
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 21, 2010, 06:15:44 PM
Quote from: "heretik"
Thank you Anne. I have noticed your posts in other threads especially the thread concerning "compliance", you write a compelling story. (I know off topic, just wanted to say.)
It's not that far off topic. There are a lot of similarities in NWT and the TTI.
Quote
Back to the topic and your response. Yes, the weekend does have a "sweat" towards the end. You are asked to bring in the burdens of others, the pain of others and to ask, "mother earth" to help you with this pain you carry for others. I at first had a hard time understanding this concept, primarily because I came to each of my first 10 sweats with so much of my own pain but as time moved and my pain subsided I began to think of others and there burdens. I wanted to help in whatever way I could, some who I loved, I wanted to carry there pain with them. I became more intimate with people and nature through these sweats (which now are literally in the hundreds).
That sounds vaguely familiar....kinda like those glossy brochures that programs put out.
Quote
I know this probably sounds weird Anne but this worked for me. Sitting in some Psychiatrist's office just wasn't working for me, I needed to be connected holistically. The natural earth made this possible for me.
I can understand that. Psychiatry didn't really do anything for me either. The natural Earth that you speak of sounds kinda like Wicca.
Quote
Large Group Awarness Therapy can be therapeutic in so far as serving to restore good health, being healthy and promoting recovery from unhappiness.
LGAT does not stand for Large Group Awareness "Therapy". It stand for Large Group Awareness Training.
Quote
This would be the LGAT's I have encountered in workshops I support. Yes MKP does have aggressive in your face LGAT's,
Like the TTI.....break 'em down in order to build 'em up.
Quote
I am not interested in those particularly. They just don't appeal to me because of my past issues, so I would not ascribe to them but I also can't say they don't work for others. They do, I have witnessed this.
Sound familiar to anyone??
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Whooter on October 21, 2010, 07:24:58 PM
My wife went through EST in the early 1980’s. I watched her transform over the period of a long weekend (she was sworn to secrecy but gave me some bits for conversation) and then the dog and pony show at the end where we were all invited to watch. The authority figure pulled the strings. You could tell the people who went through the process by the energy that they possessed. They stared at the stage like they were waiting for another dose of heroin. It was something I had never seen before or since.
Here is the way I would describe its path to success:
You get a few hundred people in a room and lock the doors with no bathroom breaks. Its like a carnival ride.
We are all wired to trust authority figures and we react very well to stimulation from our environment and those around us. You put in a few plants who know the right answers and how to respond, the people around them watch and learn as the plants are rewarded for their behavior. We are social creatures so everyone wants a piece eventually and they compete for attention. Extreme emotions are created which releases endorphins which can feel as good as heroin when your body is stressed. At this point you have an authority figure who could talk you into crossing a street in heavy traffic without looking and just trust him totally. You are peeled open and exposed and anyone in the authority position can place new thoughts in your brain. The key is to keep the pace so high that your emotions override your rationale and there is not time for you to engage in critical thinking or rejection.
LGAT’s can be dangerous and misunderstood as brainwashing but they can also be very rewarding and inspiring from what I have read.
...
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 21, 2010, 07:40:42 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
You get a few hundred people in a room and lock the doors with no bathroom breaks. Its like a carnival ride.
We are all wired to trust authority figures and we react very well to stimulation from our environment and those around us. You put in a few plants who know the right answers and how to respond, the people around them watch and learn as the plants are rewarded for their behavior. We are social creatures so everyone wants a piece eventually and they compete for attention. Extreme emotions are created which releases endorphins which can feel as good as heroin when your body is stressed. At this point you have an authority figure who could talk you into crossing a street in heavy traffic without looking and just trust him totally. You are peeled open and exposed and anyone in the authority position can place new thoughts in your brain. The key is to keep the pace so high that your emotions override your rationale and there is not time for you to engage in critical thinking or rejection.
You've just described a good bit of how programs "work".
Title: Re: sweats numbering "literally in the hundreds"
Post by: heretik on October 21, 2010, 09:31:26 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "heretik"
Quote from: "Samara"
Heretik: Just curious about the following - not in a rancorous way. What about: 1. NDA's 2. No way out 3. Blind adherence to the weekend "program" 4. Does it use ridicule and humiliation to coerce change? 5. Does it try and force you to accept their interpretation of your reality or past events?
Can you challenge or opt out if you disagree or something just isn't jibing for you? Can you honestly the leader is not some narcissist with Guru Fantasies?
Samara, I will be back later tonight to answer. OK. Have to go for now. See ya.
Yes yes. Better do some more fact-checking first ... with some of yer "warrior" friends who are a lil more in the know, eh?
Speaking of spin...
Quote from: "heretik"
Yes, the weekend does have a "sweat" towards the end. You are asked to bring in the burdens of others, the pain of others and to ask, "mother earth" to help you with this pain you carry for others. I at first had a hard time understanding this concept, primarily because I came to each of my first 10 sweats with so much of my own pain but as time moved and my pain subsided I began to think of others and there burdens. I wanted to help in whatever way I could, some who I loved, I wanted to carry there pain with them. I became more intimate with people and nature through these sweats (which now are literally in the hundreds).
Hundreds??!! Over what period of time? Even for, say, a period of a decade, "hundreds" translates into at least twenty per year, which is generally not the pace opted for when it comes to ruminating on "deep spiritual insights," let alone experiencing "6 hour rolfing massages" with subsequent delusions of levitation as a bonus.
That is... unless you're addicted to it! Are you SURE your electrolytes are still in balance??! :D Altered states can be achieved through a variety of ways and means, not necessarily dependent on the imbibing of narcotic substances...
Quote from: "heretik"
Yes, people are told about the weekend as much as you can but still you really can not explain enough to prepare one for this weekend. Like I said it is brutal. Then you come out the other end and you feel weightless, like a 6 hour rolfing massage you levitate after your done. Have you ever ran a marathon, biked long distance, worked incredibly long hours to get a project done, stayed up night after night with a sick baby, well then you know. Try all of this in a weekend.... :rofl: only kidding but close.
Listen I am not sure why you are acting in this manner but I see no need to talk to me like this. I did not know that my word would be subjected to such inquiry. I have no need to lie or embellish. I received a email/Pm the other night, I have noticed you are also a moderator. Let me make myself clear please, I am not this person. So please stop with the subtle sarcasm, if you have a question just ask. Let me explain myself a little better, my first sweat I did was at a Nordic Lodge with a Finnish family. Some people would confuse this to a steam room but in fact they were carrying out a Indian ritual, I was 14 years old, that was over 40 years ago. I said hundreds Ursus, I believe I was being moderate. It is not uncommon for people to sweat on a weekly bases, which would then put the number at 52 per year x 10 years, that would be hundreds. I have been sweating for 40 years with a average of 30 times a year, some years less then others. Addiction to sweating well if this is how you choose to see it, I would say fine. I could find more destructive venues to be hung up on.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: heretik on October 21, 2010, 10:05:39 PM
Quote from: "heretik"
Quote from: "Samara"
Heretik: Just curious about the following - not in a rancorous way. What about: 1. NDA's
Quote
I did not sign any myself personally nor am I familiar with anyone else signing one. They did ask verbally for me not to tell anyone what happened at the weekend that would be coming in the future. I did not honor this agreement. I have a big mouth. :)
2. No way out
Quote
Not sure what you mean? I always felt I could leave and or get out.
3. Blind adherence to the weekend "program"
Quote
Yes there was a certain blind adherence because I really did not know what was coming next. So I just believed in my friends that I was safe. Did I feel totally controlled by the leaders to the point of being intimidated to adhere, no. Did I feel intimidated at times during the weekend, yes I did. I felt very uncomfortable at moments, almost to the point of being bullied. I stated this to one of the leaders and he toned it down.
4. Does it use ridicule and humiliation to coerce change?
Quote
Yes it does in a few of the exercises but nothing more then being in bootcamp in the service. Do I think this is effective, no. I just dealt with it because I was told it would happen. Did I change anything because of this exercise, no.
5. Does it try and force you to accept their interpretation of your reality or past events?
Quote
Yes, I do believe there are some leaders that believe they have it all figured out and they have your answer. Do they force this on you, not exactly. Can they be aggressive in there point of view or what they think works, yes. I found if I stood my ground on with conviction I was respected.
Can you challenge or opt out if you disagree or something just isn't jibing for you?
Quote
Challenging is not a option for some of the exercises, you either do it or step out and go home. I found this hard to accept for some. A little rough.
Can you honestly the leader is not some narcissist with Guru Fantasies?
Quote
Oh hell, there are some of those there, for sure. I just stayed away from them. They have nothing I want. Not everyone is like that, I would say most are not.
Samara, I will be back later tonight to answer. OK. Have to go for now. See ya.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Maximillian on October 23, 2010, 06:20:16 PM
OK, see you later, Danny. Can't wait to hear your response :shamrock: :shamrock: :shamrock: :shamrock: :shamrock:
Title: Re: sweats numbering "literally in the hundreds"
Post by: Ursus on October 25, 2010, 01:34:31 PM
Quote from: "heretik"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "heretik"
Quote from: "Samara"
Heretik: Just curious about the following - not in a rancorous way. What about: 1. NDA's 2. No way out 3. Blind adherence to the weekend "program" 4. Does it use ridicule and humiliation to coerce change? 5. Does it try and force you to accept their interpretation of your reality or past events?
Can you challenge or opt out if you disagree or something just isn't jibing for you? Can you honestly the leader is not some narcissist with Guru Fantasies?
Samara, I will be back later tonight to answer. OK. Have to go for now. See ya.
Yes yes. Better do some more fact-checking first ... with some of yer "warrior" friends who are a lil more in the know, eh?
Speaking of spin...
Quote from: "heretik"
Yes, the weekend does have a "sweat" towards the end. You are asked to bring in the burdens of others, the pain of others and to ask, "mother earth" to help you with this pain you carry for others. I at first had a hard time understanding this concept, primarily because I came to each of my first 10 sweats with so much of my own pain but as time moved and my pain subsided I began to think of others and there burdens. I wanted to help in whatever way I could, some who I loved, I wanted to carry there pain with them. I became more intimate with people and nature through these sweats (which now are literally in the hundreds).
Hundreds??!! Over what period of time? Even for, say, a period of a decade, "hundreds" translates into at least twenty per year, which is generally not the pace opted for when it comes to ruminating on "deep spiritual insights," let alone experiencing "6 hour rolfing massages" with subsequent delusions of levitation as a bonus.
That is... unless you're addicted to it! Are you SURE your electrolytes are still in balance??! :D Altered states can be achieved through a variety of ways and means, not necessarily dependent on the imbibing of narcotic substances...
Quote from: "heretik"
Yes, people are told about the weekend as much as you can but still you really can not explain enough to prepare one for this weekend. Like I said it is brutal. Then you come out the other end and you feel weightless, like a 6 hour rolfing massage you levitate after your done. Have you ever ran a marathon, biked long distance, worked incredibly long hours to get a project done, stayed up night after night with a sick baby, well then you know. Try all of this in a weekend.... :rofl: only kidding but close.
Listen I am not sure why you are acting in this manner but I see no need to talk to me like this. I did not know that my word would be subjected to such inquiry. I have no need to lie or embellish. I received a email/Pm the other night, I have noticed you are also a moderator. Let me make myself clear please, I am not this person. So please stop with the subtle sarcasm, if you have a question just ask. Let me explain myself a little better, my first sweat I did was at a Nordic Lodge with a Finnish family. Some people would confuse this to a steam room but in fact they were carrying out a Indian ritual, I was 14 years old, that was over 40 years ago. I said hundreds Ursus, I believe I was being moderate. It is not uncommon for people to sweat on a weekly bases, which would then put the number at 52 per year x 10 years, that would be hundreds. I have been sweating for 40 years with a average of 30 times a year, some years less then others. Addiction to sweating well if this is how you choose to see it, I would say fine. I could find more destructive venues to be hung up on.
"The lady doth protest too much ... methinks." [/list]
Title: Re: sweats numbering "literally in the hundreds"
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 25, 2010, 01:47:16 PM
Quote from: "heretik"
Listen I am not sure why you are acting in this manner but I see no need to talk to me like this. I did not know that my word would be subjected to such inquiry. I have no need to lie or embellish. I received a email/Pm the other night, I have noticed you are also a moderator. Let me make myself clear please, I am not this person. So please stop with the subtle sarcasm, if you have a question just ask. Let me explain myself a little better, my first sweat I did was at a Nordic Lodge with a Finnish family. Some people would confuse this to a steam room but in fact they were carrying out a Indian ritual, I was 14 years old, that was over 40 years ago. I said hundreds Ursus, I believe I was being moderate. It is not uncommon for people to sweat on a weekly bases, which would then put the number at 52 per year x 10 years, that would be hundreds. I have been sweating for 40 years with a average of 30 times a year, some years less then others. Addiction to sweating well if this is how you choose to see it, I would say fine. I could find more destructive venues to be hung up on.
What you're describing and what James Ray was doing are two very different animals.
I still don't get this 'guru chasing' culture.
Title: Re: sweats numbering "literally in the hundreds"
Post by: Ursus on October 25, 2010, 02:01:53 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "heretik"
Listen I am not sure why you are acting in this manner but I see no need to talk to me like this. I did not know that my word would be subjected to such inquiry. I have no need to lie or embellish. I received a email/Pm the other night, I have noticed you are also a moderator. Let me make myself clear please, I am not this person. So please stop with the subtle sarcasm, if you have a question just ask. Let me explain myself a little better, my first sweat I did was at a Nordic Lodge with a Finnish family. Some people would confuse this to a steam room but in fact they were carrying out a Indian ritual, I was 14 years old, that was over 40 years ago. I said hundreds Ursus, I believe I was being moderate. It is not uncommon for people to sweat on a weekly bases, which would then put the number at 52 per year x 10 years, that would be hundreds. I have been sweating for 40 years with a average of 30 times a year, some years less then others. Addiction to sweating well if this is how you choose to see it, I would say fine. I could find more destructive venues to be hung up on.
What you're describing and what James Ray was doing are two very different animals.
I still don't get this 'guru chasing' culture.
I agree, Anne. For that matter, doing a sweat in a Finnish or Nordic steam house / sauna, or however heretik chooses to describe it, is also a lot different than the sweat that takes place during the New Warrior Training Adventure (or TAW).
· · ·
Fwiw, for reasons of relevance, a currently active thread re. the James Ray sweat lodge tragedy that occurred last year:
aparently, adults want to go to programs too viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28923 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28923)
Title: Re: sweats numbering "literally in the hundreds"
Post by: heretik on October 25, 2010, 08:25:27 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "heretik"
Listen I am not sure why you are acting in this manner but I see no need to talk to me like this. I did not know that my word would be subjected to such inquiry. I have no need to lie or embellish. I received a email/Pm the other night, I have noticed you are also a moderator. Let me make myself clear please, I am not this person. So please stop with the subtle sarcasm, if you have a question just ask. Let me explain myself a little better, my first sweat I did was at a Nordic Lodge with a Finnish family. Some people would confuse this to a steam room but in fact they were carrying out a Indian ritual, I was 14 years old, that was over 40 years ago. I said hundreds Ursus, I believe I was being moderate. It is not uncommon for people to sweat on a weekly bases, which would then put the number at 52 per year x 10 years, that would be hundreds. I have been sweating for 40 years with a average of 30 times a year, some years less then others. Addiction to sweating well if this is how you choose to see it, I would say fine. I could find more destructive venues to be hung up on.
What you're describing and what James Ray was doing are two very different animals.
Quote
I am not sure what you mean by this statement?
[/b]
I still don't get this 'guru chasing' culture.
Quote
I am not chasing Guru's Anne. Don't see the need for one.
[/b]
Title: Re: sweats numbering "literally in the hundreds"
Post by: heretik on October 25, 2010, 09:04:37 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "heretik"
Listen I am not sure why you are acting in this manner but I see no need to talk to me like this. I did not know that my word would be subjected to such inquiry. I have no need to lie or embellish. I received a email/Pm the other night, I have noticed you are also a moderator. Let me make myself clear please, I am not this person. So please stop with the subtle sarcasm, if you have a question just ask. Let me explain myself a little better, my first sweat I did was at a Nordic Lodge with a Finnish family. Some people would confuse this to a steam room but in fact they were carrying out a Indian ritual, I was 14 years old, that was over 40 years ago. I said hundreds Ursus, I believe I was being moderate. It is not uncommon for people to sweat on a weekly bases, which would then put the number at 52 per year x 10 years, that would be hundreds. I have been sweating for 40 years with a average of 30 times a year, some years less then others. Addiction to sweating well if this is how you choose to see it, I would say fine. I could find more destructive venues to be hung up on.
What you're describing and what James Ray was doing are two very different animals.
I still don't get this 'guru chasing' culture.
I agree, Anne. For that matter, doing a sweat in a Finnish or Nordic steam house / sauna, or however heretik chooses to describe it, is also a lot different than the sweat that takes place during the New Warrior Training Adventure (or TAW). · · · Fwiw, for reasons of relevance, a currently active thread re. the James Ray sweat lodge tragedy that occurred last year:
aparently, adults want to go to programs too viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28923 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28923)
I mentioned the Nordic Lodge because this is where we actually did our sweats, outside on the grounds of the Nordic Lodge. A finnish family owned the lodge back in the seventies. This lodge was in Kenyon R.I.(part of Charlestown R.I.) off of Rt. 2. In and around this area there is a rather large population of Narragansett, Mohegan, Wampanoag and the Algonquian Indians. So sweating with Hihawatha Brown, Tarzan Brown, Sunny Spears, Thunderbolt Spears, Hizi Brown, Randy Noka, Sunny Noka and a mixture of others (all natives I grew up with) was not unusual. There were actual sweat huts made from Mother nature herself or as the Narragansetts like to do was burrow into the side of a hill and hollow out a room, stick a pipe down through the top so when things got to hot they would open the entrance and this flume. There idea off cross ventilation, I will say, it worked.
Off topic for a second; clarification. http://www.google.com/search?q=+Nordic+ ... en___US378 (http://www.google.com/search?q=+Nordic+Lodge%2C+Kenyon+R.I.&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&client=firefox-a&rlz=1R1MOZA_en___US378) Today you will find the Nordic Lodge to be a dining extravaganza, absolutely superb. I swam in this pond often. They had a dock that went about 40ft into the lake at the entrance of the dock (on top of the dock) sat the Steam/Sauna house. In the winter we would jump in the freezing water then run back to the sauna. What a rush.
Back on topic; So as you can see the sweating I was involved in was not any different then I had done with MKP. As far as this character James Ray. I read a bit more about him and this guy is just to much for me.
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Ursus on October 25, 2010, 11:01:31 PM
Quote from: "heretik"
Back on topic; So as you can see the sweating I was involved in was not any different then I had done with MKP. As far as this character James Ray. I read a bit more about him and this guy is just to much for me.
Involvement with MKP entails a lot more than a few sweats. It also entails a fair amount of indoctrination, if you will, into a certain mindset as facilitated by group exercises of male-oriented newage psychobabble, confrontational pseudo therapy, as well as various experiential exercises over the course of the New Warrior Training Adventure (or TAW).
And then, of course, there are the "I-Groups" you can participate in afterwards, to keep you in tune with "the culture of your peers."
This is not so very different from James Ray's motivational speaker exploits, save that a single person is allegedly at the helm rather than a group of folk, as well as differences in specific word usage in the requisite special lingo. Come to think of it, this same psychological toolbox from the human potential movement, IMHO, is resorted to by Hyde School and always has been! :D
What all of these groups have in common is their negation of the value of one's critical thinking abilities, the use of experientials to enhance the impact of "The Message," and the use of "The Group" to speed up the inculcation process and stuff cotton into the mouths of potential nay-sayers, not to mention the economic benefits of using recruits to do the job of recruiting.
Title: Re: sweats numbering "literally in the hundreds"
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 26, 2010, 12:15:58 PM
Quote from: "heretik"
Let me explain myself a little better, my first sweat I did was at a Nordic Lodge with a Finnish family. Some people would confuse this to a steam room but in fact they were carrying out a Indian ritual, I was 14 years old, that was over 40 years ago. I said hundreds Ursus, I believe I was being moderate. It is not uncommon for people to sweat on a weekly bases, which would then put the number at 52 per year x 10 years, that would be hundreds. I have been sweating for 40 years with a average of 30 times a year, some years less then others. Addiction to sweating well if this is how you choose to see it, I would say fine. I could find more destructive venues to be hung up on.
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
What you're describing and what James Ray was doing are two very different animals.
Quote from: "heretik"
I am not sure what you mean by this statement?
Sorry, don't know how to help ya there. It's pretty clear to me. James Ray was not doing what you described above. I have no problem with 'sweats' done as their intended.....I DO have a problem with unqualified people running their own version of them for profit. The way I see James Ray, from everything I've read, is that he came across an idea (in his case, Native American sweats lodges), saw a huge opportunity to fulfill two things for him. To make a shitload of money and to be viewed as a "guru".
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
I still don't get this 'guru chasing' culture.
Quote from: "heretik"
I am not chasing Guru's Anne. Don't see the need for one.
I wasn't really referring to you, moreso the people that seem to run from self-help guru to self-help guru, but if the shoe fits.
Title: Re: MKP's NWTA / TAW - therapeutic benefits
Post by: Ursus on November 01, 2010, 11:02:39 AM
Going back to a previous post (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&start=165#p384811):
Quote from: "Ursus"
Along similar lines of inquiry...
Quote from: "heretik"
Sitting in some Psychiatrist's office just wasn't working for me, I needed to be connected holistically. The natural earth made this possible for me. Large Group Awarness Therapy can be therapeutic in so far as serving to restore good health, being healthy and promoting recovery from unhappiness. This would be the LGAT's I have encountered in workshops I support. Yes MKP does have aggressive in your face LGAT's, I am not interested in those particularly. They just don't appeal to me because of my past issues, so I would not ascribe to them but I also can't say they don't work for others. They do, I have witnessed this.
Gee. I had always understood LGAT to stand for Large Group Awareness Training... Could you possibly explain to me how the Mankind Project equates "training" with "therapy?"
Moreover, could you go into a lil more depth about the so-called therapeutic benefits? Do you believe that MKP considers their NWTA or TAW to confer benefits or insights analogous to those obtained through therapy, as your post above states vis a vis your own experience?
@heretik: Still waiting to hear about those so-called therapeutic benefits...
Also, could you possibly, if you feel up to it, share some more specifics as to your positive experiences with the Mankind Project? Your descriptions thus far have been somewhat vague, and more focused on your time in the Finnish / Nordic sauna than on what did or did not transpire during your New Warrior Training Adventure... Thanks!
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: Anne Bonney on November 01, 2010, 11:07:12 AM
Just even the phrase "New Warrior Training" would give me pause for thought. I mean, is this meant to bring about peace in one's life or become some "warrior". And a warrior for what?
Title: Re: MKP's NWTA / TAW - therapeutic benefits
Post by: Ursus on November 05, 2010, 07:30:45 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Going back to a previous post (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&start=165#p384811):
Quote from: "Ursus"
Along similar lines of inquiry...
Quote from: "heretik"
Sitting in some Psychiatrist's office just wasn't working for me, I needed to be connected holistically. The natural earth made this possible for me. Large Group Awarness Therapy can be therapeutic in so far as serving to restore good health, being healthy and promoting recovery from unhappiness. This would be the LGAT's I have encountered in workshops I support. Yes MKP does have aggressive in your face LGAT's, I am not interested in those particularly. They just don't appeal to me because of my past issues, so I would not ascribe to them but I also can't say they don't work for others. They do, I have witnessed this.
Gee. I had always understood LGAT to stand for Large Group Awareness Training... Could you possibly explain to me how the Mankind Project equates "training" with "therapy?"
Moreover, could you go into a lil more depth about the so-called therapeutic benefits? Do you believe that MKP considers their NWTA or TAW to confer benefits or insights analogous to those obtained through therapy, as your post above states vis a vis your own experience?
@heretik: Still waiting to hear about those so-called therapeutic benefits...
Also, could you possibly, if you feel up to it, share some more specifics as to your positive experiences with the Mankind Project? Your descriptions thus far have been somewhat vague, and more focused on your time in the Finnish / Nordic sauna than on what did or did not transpire during your New Warrior Training Adventure... Thanks!
Also... some commentary and/or insight on what role MKP played or plays vis a vis the question of reparative therapy would be appreciated...
Title: Re: MKP's NWTA / TAW - therapeutic benefits
Post by: heretik on November 06, 2010, 01:45:00 AM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Going back to a previous post (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&start=165#p384811):
Quote from: "Ursus"
Along similar lines of inquiry...
Quote from: "heretik"
Sitting in some Psychiatrist's office just wasn't working for me, I needed to be connected holistically. The natural earth made this possible for me. Large Group Awarness Therapy can be therapeutic in so far as serving to restore good health, being healthy and promoting recovery from unhappiness. This would be the LGAT's I have encountered in workshops I support. Yes MKP does have aggressive in your face LGAT's, I am not interested in those particularly. They just don't appeal to me because of my past issues, so I would not ascribe to them but I also can't say they don't work for others. They do, I have witnessed this.
Gee. I had always understood LGAT to stand for Large Group Awareness Training... Could you possibly explain to me how the Mankind Project equates "training" with "therapy?"
Moreover, could you go into a lil more depth about the so-called therapeutic benefits? Do you believe that MKP considers their NWTA or TAW to confer benefits or insights analogous to those obtained through therapy, as your post above states vis a vis your own experience?
@heretik: Still waiting to hear about those so-called therapeutic benefits...
Also, could you possibly, if you feel up to it, share some more specifics as to your positive experiences with the Mankind Project? Your descriptions thus far have been somewhat vague, and more focused on your time in the Finnish / Nordic sauna than on what did or did not transpire during your New Warrior Training Adventure... Thanks!
Also... some commentary and/or insight on what role MKP played or plays vis a vis the question of reparative therapy would be appreciated...
Ursus, first I want to say I am not qualified to answer your questions to the degree I believe you deserve. The therapeutic value of the MK weekend I would like to back off on that comment, it is personal and I honestly would rather not open myself up to scrutiny out on a public forum. Plus I do not have the expertise to articulate in a written form my thoughts and experiences I had during the weekend and subsequent years after. I apologize for speaking in generalized and vague statements. I should not have implied, that I was speaking for anyone. I am learning to be more disciplined with my thoughts before I type. I am also beginning to understand that you may have much more experience in therapeutic values the I. I would suggest that this turn into a more specific laymen question and answer format. Just a suggestion so I can maybe answer your questions. OK?
I will say this about the weekend, the entire experience is based on the book, "Iron John" by Robert Bly. At least this is what my weekend theme was based on.
From Library Journal; Bly redefines masculinity in a groundbreaking book that went to Copyright 1992 Reed Business Information, Inc. http://www.amazon.com/Iron-John-Book-Ab ... 0679731199 (http://www.amazon.com/Iron-John-Book-About-Men/dp/0679731199) From Library Journal: Bly, a major American poet who won a National Book Award in 1968, appears regularly at workshops for men. The book's title refers to a mentor-like figure in a Grimms fairy tale who serves as Wild Man, initiator, and source of divine energy for a young man. This marvelous folktale of resonant, many-layered meanings is an apt choice for demonstrating the need for men to learn from other men how to honor and re imagine the positive image of their masculinity. Bly has always responded to Blakean and Yeatsian intensities, preferring to travel the path lit by mythic road signs. His intent here is to restore a lost heritage of emotional connection and expose the paltriness of a provisional life. For many men capable of responding imaginatively to allegory and myth this will be an instructive and ultimately exculpating book.
Note: Others may regard it as an inscrutable attempt, intuitive at best, to find merit in male developmental anxieties.
I
Title: Re: MKP's NWTA / TAW - therapeutic benefits
Post by: Ursus on November 06, 2010, 11:11:33 PM
Quote from: "heretik"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Going back to a previous post (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&start=165#p384811):
Quote from: "Ursus"
Along similar lines of inquiry...
Quote from: "heretik"
Sitting in some Psychiatrist's office just wasn't working for me, I needed to be connected holistically. The natural earth made this possible for me. Large Group Awarness Therapy can be therapeutic in so far as serving to restore good health, being healthy and promoting recovery from unhappiness. This would be the LGAT's I have encountered in workshops I support. Yes MKP does have aggressive in your face LGAT's, I am not interested in those particularly. They just don't appeal to me because of my past issues, so I would not ascribe to them but I also can't say they don't work for others. They do, I have witnessed this.
Gee. I had always understood LGAT to stand for Large Group Awareness Training... Could you possibly explain to me how the Mankind Project equates "training" with "therapy?"
Moreover, could you go into a lil more depth about the so-called therapeutic benefits? Do you believe that MKP considers their NWTA or TAW to confer benefits or insights analogous to those obtained through therapy, as your post above states vis a vis your own experience?
@heretik: Still waiting to hear about those so-called therapeutic benefits...
Also, could you possibly, if you feel up to it, share some more specifics as to your positive experiences with the Mankind Project? Your descriptions thus far have been somewhat vague, and more focused on your time in the Finnish / Nordic sauna than on what did or did not transpire during your New Warrior Training Adventure... Thanks!
Also... some commentary and/or insight on what role MKP played or plays vis a vis the question of reparative therapy would be appreciated...
Ursus, first I want to say I am not qualified to answer your questions to the degree I believe you deserve. The therapeutic value of the MK weekend I would like to back off on that comment, it is personal and I honestly would rather not open myself up to scrutiny out on a public forum. Plus I do not have the expertise to articulate in a written form my thoughts and experiences I had during the weekend and subsequent years after. I apologize for speaking in generalized and vague statements. I should not have implied, that I was speaking for anyone. I am learning to be more disciplined with my thoughts before I type. I am also beginning to understand that you may have much more experience in therapeutic values the I. I would suggest that this turn into a more specific laymen question and answer format. Just a suggestion so I can maybe answer your questions. OK?
I will say this about the weekend, the entire experience is based on the book, "Iron John" by Robert Bly. At least this is what my weekend theme was based on.
From Library Journal; Bly redefines masculinity in a groundbreaking book that went to Copyright 1992 Reed Business Information, Inc. http://www.amazon.com/Iron-John-Book-Ab ... 0679731199 (http://www.amazon.com/Iron-John-Book-About-Men/dp/0679731199) From Library Journal: Bly, a major American poet who won a National Book Award in 1968, appears regularly at workshops for men. The book's title refers to a mentor-like figure in a Grimms fairy tale who serves as Wild Man, initiator, and source of divine energy for a young man. This marvelous folktale of resonant, many-layered meanings is an apt choice for demonstrating the need for men to learn from other men how to honor and re imagine the positive image of their masculinity. Bly has always responded to Blakean and Yeatsian intensities, preferring to travel the path lit by mythic road signs. His intent here is to restore a lost heritage of emotional connection and expose the paltriness of a provisional life. For many men capable of responding imaginatively to allegory and myth this will be an instructive and ultimately exculpating book.
Note: Others may regard it as an inscrutable attempt, intuitive at best, to find merit in male developmental anxieties.
I
Okay... So how do you feel about MKP's role in the whole reparative therapy issue?
Title: Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
Post by: heretik on November 09, 2010, 01:13:17 PM
Quote
Ursus wrote: Okay... So how do you feel about MKP's role in the whole reparative therapy issue?
Ursus, I am and was not aware MKP had any stance on or interest in "reparative therapy". If I had, I never would have proceeded to get involved. Once again let me explain. My involvement with MK was short, one weekend. My first comments I expressed here, that you enjoy posting over and over are a bit fluffed. I tried to explain this in a previous post. I explained that I needed to be more disciplined with my thoughts and reactions to them. Most of my experiences are based on hearsay not actual doing or experiencing others. This is the truth of it all. I commented initially on my weekend experience and on what friends have told me about there involvement. I would rather not elaborate on someones experience even though they trusted me with the information any more. thanks
Just to be sure, we are talking about these issues below; This is a excerpt of the article.
http://jgford.homestead.com/PrivatePractice.html (http://jgford.homestead.com/PrivatePractice.html) Jeffry G. Ford, MA, Licensed Psychologist is a 1983 graduate of St. Mary's University, Winona, MN where he received his master's degree in Counseling and Psychological Services. He is also licensed as a Marriage and Family Therapist and an Independent Clinical Social Worker. He is the owner and director of Associated Resources In Psychology, PA in Roseville, MN where he maintains a private therapy and consulting practice. He uses an empathy based, solution-focused model as his counseling style. Jeff especially enjoys working with couples and families challenged by relationship and communication difficulties. He has great compassion for those who have been wounded by religious fundamentalism. He values diversity in all it's richness. He respects the rights of all individuals and couples to define boundaries and make decisions in accordance with personal values, not confined by social stereotypes.
http://jgford.homestead.com/ (http://jgford.homestead.com/) He has specialized in addressing the complexities involved with the anti-gay theory known both as Reparative Therapy and Sexual Conversion Therapy, which purports to prevent and cure homosexuality. He speaks from experience as one who studied and practiced reparative therapies for years. Because of his personal and professional experience, Ford is able to offer accurate answers and powerful insight. He provides useful skills and tools to challenge the dangerous use of pseudo scientific theories like these and other discrediited methods. He is a frequent workshop presenter and guest lecturer He was formerly the executive director of OUTPOST an "ex-gay" ministry located in Minneapolis, MN. For almost 10 years Jeff claimed to be a "former homosexual". For many years he was a national speaker for Exodus International, which remains the governing Board and communication hub for most ex-gay ministries. His story, along with the stories of twelve other "exex-gays" is featured in the volume Finally Free compiled by the Washington DC based Human Rights Campaign.