Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => News Items => Topic started by: Anonymous on February 16, 2008, 08:09:31 PM
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For Troubled Adoptees - A Last Stop
By Bonnie Miller Rubin
January 20, 2008
EUREKA, MONT. — At first glance, the children saddling up the horses look like they were cast by Hollywood to play wholesome, athletic all-American kids. But outward appearances don't tell the whole story.
One has molested a sibling. Another has tried to kill the family pet. Lying, stealing, vandalism, fire-setting round out the list of transgressions.
Because their parents can no longer manage them at home, the 24 youngsters -- almost all international adoptees -- have ended up at the Ranch for Kids, a therapeutic boarding school in northwest Montana.
This is the final stop.
Most had already logged countless hours in psychiatric units, wilderness programs and residential treatment centers, searching for answers to their disturbing behaviors. The goal is that, through intense intervention and structure, their conduct will improve enough that they can go home.
But some will never return, moving on to new families. They are part of an expanding phenomenon known as adoption disruption -- the official term for parents attempting to return their adoptive children.
"Some parents just can't do it anymore; they're done," said Joyce Sterkel, who runs the Ranch for Kids. "It's tragic . . . and everyone is a victim."
No one appears to keep data on adoption disruption. Relinquishment is statistically rare among the 20,000 foreign-born children adopted by Americans each year, but experts say it is happening with increasing frequency.
One Ohio adoption agency reports receiving as many as five calls a day from parents about disruptions, up from just one or two a month a couple of years ago.
"No one knew the magnitude of the problem," said Sterkel. "The horror stories just keep on coming."
Though dissolutions of domestic adoptions are not unheard of -- a decade-long study of 5,750 Illinois children adopted from foster care through the mid-1980s found a rate of 6.5% -- it is among the international population where experts are seeing a troubling increase.
Experts blame the jump on several factors.
First, as Americans have adopted more children from overseas -- the number has almost tripled since 1990 -- the number with disturbing behavior has also grown. And these children are now hitting adolescence, when their rages are more dangerous.
Moreover, many parents were unprepared for the challenges. Sometimes agencies glossed over their charges' complex medical histories -- or omitted them altogether. "Now, they're out there all alone . . . living in a constant state of crisis," said therapist Amy Groessl of the Children's Research Triangle in Chicago, which serves high-risk families.
Though some may have undertaken parenthood with unrealistic expectations, it seems more typical that they are deeply committed but ill-equipped to cope with profoundly damaged children. The youngsters may have fetal alcohol syndrome, mental illness, attachment disorders -- perhaps all three -- and can't function in a family, though they show no outward signs of disability.
"These kids are the victims of every kind of abuse you can imagine: sexual, physical, emotional," said Sterkel. Adoptive parents receive no hint of or preparation for the difficult road ahead, she said. "They thought love was enough."
So when the nuclear family melts down, parents must grapple with a heartbreaking choice: "Do we remove this child . . . or do we all go down?"
Sterkel, a nurse and mother of three grown biological children, knows the struggles personally and professionally.
In the early 1990s, she lived in Russia for two years as part of a humanitarian relief effort and saw threadbare orphanages. After Sterkel returned to the United States, she couldn't shake the image of Katya, suffering from years of abandonment and neglect. She adopted the 10-year-old in 1996.
Then she learned of a Russian teen, Sasha, who first had been adopted -- along with his three younger siblings -- by a Colorado family. That arrangement quickly unraveled. Sasha moved on to a second household, also in Colorado, while his two sisters and his brother were split up and placed in several states. Soon after, Sasha tried to poison his new mother. Charged with felony assault, he was sent to juvenile detention.
"My new mother told me that I should forget [my siblings], but I couldn't," the 23-year-old said recently. "I went nuts."
When Sterkel heard his story, she decided to rescue him. The adoption was finalized in 1999. Today, he helps out on the ranch, connecting with other hard-to-reach kids.
"I still have a lot of trust issues . . . especially with women," said Sasha. "But life is a lot better now. Of all the families I've had, this one is the best."
There would be one more son -- Michael, now 20 -- bringing the brood to six.
Meanwhile, word spread that this Montana woman, who speaks conversational Russian, and her husband, Harry Sutley, could offer a respite to parents in crisis.
The wind howls across the craggy landscape, five miles from the Canadian border. There's plenty of physical activity and virtually nowhere to run. In the early days, Sterkel didn't have much of a treatment plan beyond keeping the kids busy and nurtured.
Today, the program employs 15, but the youngsters -- mostly 12 to 17, but some as young as 4 -- live in the same spartan dorms. And the blueprint is unchanged: The route to self-esteem is through teamwork and productivity.
The first half of the day is devoted to academics followed by chores. On a ranch, cows always need milking, ditches need digging, fences mending. It's a bracing change for the socially isolated children.
The most coveted time is spent with the horses, also known as equine assistance psychotherapy. Push a horse and it'll push back; hefty doses of kindness, patience and respect will usually yield results. It's a way to connect with aggressive, angry children and nudge them toward new insights. Traditional counseling is available, but only at a parent's request.
"Here, everyday life is therapy," said Bill Sutley, 35, Sterkel's son, an affable wearer of numerous hats, from ranch manager to math teacher.
The regimen works, he quickly added, only because of the number of adults who can step in at a moment's notice. He knows well that "tough love" bromides are no match for complex neurological wiring. And what works with one child doesn't necessarily work with another. "There's no magic formula," he said.
The typical stay is six to 12 months, although some students stay longer. Room, board and tuition total $2,950 to $3,500 a month.
Since 2004, about 150 kids have cycled through, with only six booted out, all within the last year.
"It takes a lot before Bill and I will cry 'uncle,' " Sterkel said. "But we have the staff to think about."
From here, a third will return home and another third -- mostly those 16 and older -- will move on to Job Corps, an education and vocational training program run by the U.S. Department of Labor.
And the remaining third will discover that their parents are relinquishing their rights.
Sometimes, the task of telling a child he or she will be joining a new family falls to Bill Sutley, an electrical engineer by training. "I just say: 'This is not your fault. You have a screwed-up brain.' And then I do my best to explain why the current situation isn't working."
He rarely judges those who arrive at this painful conclusion. Sure, one couple sent a one-paragraph e-mail ("Just incredibly lame," he said). But for the most part, families are held hostage -- especially when adoptees act out sexually or falsely allege abuse by their adoptive parents.
When all efforts fail, Sterkel starts a new placement process with a call to A Child's Waiting in Akron, Ohio -- one of the few adoption agencies that works with youth they did not originally place.
Children are tagged green, yellow and red, based on the difficulty of finding replacement families.
The numbers have risen so dramatically that A Child's Waiting plans to build transitional housing this year to accommodate this group, said Crissy Bessemer-Kolarik, co-director. "The red kids have the most significant issues, such as sexual predators."
To prevent future disruptions, agencies are emphasizing more pre-adoption training and post-adoption support. Some are telling prospective parents they should assume that their children were exposed to drugs and alcohol in utero, unless documentation indicates otherwise.
For one suburban Chicago mother whose daughter is at the ranch, the warnings came too late.
The girl regularly accused her of abuse, she said, and the investigators who knocked on her door had no framework for dealing with such an impaired girl.
The mother's short-term solution? To never be alone with the child. She is still undecided about the long term. "All I can tell you is that we grieve for what might have been."
http://mentalhopenews.blogspot.com/2008 ... icago.html (http://mentalhopenews.blogspot.com/2008/01/for-troubled-adoptees-last-stop-chicago.html)
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Great find, ANFV. I had heard about this place but didnt realize how successful they have become. The sad part is the apparent increase in demand and lack of options for these families. This is an area that could use some professional help and followup studies to help determine their effectiveness long term.
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then why does the industry and the facilities that are part of it publish no meaningful statistics and do no follow up studies. How about the facilities that you consider to be part of the industry simply reporting the percentage of the adolescents they take in whose parents have been divorced or were adopted. That would be simple. Why don't you use some of your energy and try to convince them to do it. It might be important. Talking about studies and statistics is nonsense when the industry you advocate for chooses to be entirely opaque.
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then why does the industry and the facilities that are part of it publish no meaningful statistics and do no follow up studies. How about the facilities that you consider to be part of the industry simply reporting the percentage of the adolescents they take in whose parents have been divorced or were adopted. That would be simple. Why don't you use some of your energy and try to convince them to do it. It might be important. Talking about studies and statistics is nonsense when the industry you advocate for chooses to be entirely opaque.
I am a very data driven person myself and would always like to see more studies done... look for corrolations to determine what tips the scales between success and failure. I am sure this data is being collected but am not sure how it is being used.
But aside from that it is nice to see that these people put together a program to try and help these kids and families.
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who - why do you think the industry provides no statistics and no studies by outside professionals? Any ideas?
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who - why do you think the industry provides no statistics and no studies by outside professionals? Any ideas?
Of course. There is simply no value in it. When there comes a time when the schools are having a hard time filling their beds because the competition is tough then I think we will see the statisitcs come out as each of them competes for customers... as it stands today the schools are doing well.
I it expensive to conduct long term studies and if there is no gaurentee of a return on their investment then no one is going to vote for it. You need to understand that every dollar allocated needs to come back with interest (profit).
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it is not expensive to simply publish statistics on how many adolescents that start the program graduate from it. The rest of your comment demonstrates the problem. The facilities you tout povide treatment to adolescnets for conditions and illnesses that exist and have definitions and accepted treatment . There are no other providers of therapeutic services for people with illnesses that fail to publish results or permit outside evaluations. The profit motive provides incentives to create new products but also to cut corners and cheat. That is why we have governmental agencies like the fda and ftc and professional organizations like the ama that establish standards and evaluate claims for those that provide treatment for illnesses etc. and we have the tough love industry in which anything that attracts customers is considered acceptable
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it is not expensive to simply publish statistics on how many adolescents that start the program graduate from it.
No, it isn’t. It just may be information that they choose not to release.
The rest of your comment demonstrates the problem. The facilities you tout povide treatment to adolescnets for conditions and illnesses that exist and have definitions and accepted treatment .
In most cases the standard treatment has not worked, the TBS is a last resort.
There are no other providers of therapeutic services for people with illnesses that fail to publish results or permit outside evaluations.
Some schools allow outside evaluations.
The profit motive provides incentives to create new products but also to cut corners and cheat. That is why we have governmental agencies like the fda and ftc and professional organizations like the ama that establish standards and evaluate claims for those that provide treatment for illnesses etc.
The government doesn’t have one for TBS’s. If the FDA and FTC,AMA decided is was not required to publish any of the results then no one would do it unless they could see a return.
and we have the tough love industry in which anything that attracts customers is considered acceptable
Sounds like you are suggesting there be a federal agency to cover TBS’s or RTC’s. I think this would solve your issue. The schools would be required to publish their results, but until then I just don’t see it happening on a wide scale.
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what schools allow outside evaluations? by what evaluators? Your statement has no value unless it is specific and verifiable.
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what schools allow outside evaluations? by what evaluators? Your statement has no value unless it is specific and verifiable.
Academy at Swift River allowed a study to be done by a phd candidate a few years back and then there was Dave Marcus who spent 16 months living at ASR following a peer group through the process and he wrote a book on his experiences there. He won the pulitzer prize for another book he wrote.
Here is a link:
What it takes to pull me through (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content.php?sub=reviewsmenu.txt&page=bookreviews.txt)
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what schools allow outside evaluations? by what evaluators? Your statement has no value unless it is specific and verifiable.
Academy at Swift River allowed a study to be done by a phd candidate a few years back and then there was Dave Marcus who spent 16 months living at ASR following a peer group through the process and he wrote a book on his experiences there. He won the pulitzer prize for another book he wrote.
Here is a link:
What it takes to pull me through (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content.php?sub=reviewsmenu.txt&page=bookreviews.txt)
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marcus's summary of asr was not favorable. the so-called study mentioned was not independent. the woman had direct ties to aspen/ the industry. we need real independent evaluation of their methods, such as taking a kid to the local jail and making him strip and smearing vasoline on their asshole. i'd love to see the evaluation and summary on that method of treatment. Ha,Ha,Ha....
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marcus's summary of asr was not favorable. the so-called study mentioned was not independent. the woman had direct ties to aspen/ the industry. we need real independent evaluation of their methods, such as taking a kid to the local jail and making him strip and smearing vasoline on their asshole. i'd love to see the evaluation and summary on that method of treatment. Ha,Ha,Ha....
The woman was a phd candidate from Colgate University and performed an independent study of one of the Therapeutic Boarding schools.
Here is the link for anyone interested in the facts:
http://groups.colgate.edu/cjs/student_papers/2002/VShapiro.pdf (http://http://groups.colgate.edu/cjs/student_papers/2002/VShapiro.pdf)
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That study has been debunked. Repeatedly. By me, at least one of those times. She said she thought it had POTENTIAL to be helpful, but couldn't say it did anything now, and basically admitted to it using abusive methods without explicitly admitting it was abusive.
But, at any rate, she didn't even earn her PhD when she wrote that damn thing. It was an inconclusive student study with a rosy outlook of its "potential".
Also, a book written by someone who survived it (for 16 fucking months, JESUS Christ) who then won some kind of prize for another book he had written has nothing to do with whether or not ASR was any good. Whoopie do he got an award for ANOTHER book besides the one about ASR.
But I digress. The fact that you're bringing up a study that's been completely shredded to pieces again makes me ownder if you're someone else or just a fucking idiot.
Ah, the ignore button...
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Wow, who, you hit a nerve with that post.
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Everyone is always crying for studies to be done.. then when they are completed and released all we hear is “Oh, well just because he won the Pulitzer prize doesn’t make him credible”… “Sure it was an independent study but she must be on the payroll because the outcome is positive”.. Ha,Ha,Ha, what they really mean to say is that there are no studies which are "negative" towards the industry.
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No, you've tried this before and failed miserably. That is not an independent, clinical study. That's a research paper written by a psych student. We're asking for peer reviewed, long term, clinical RESEARCH. Why is this so difficult for you to grasp?
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No, you've tried this before and failed miserably. That is not an independent, clinical study. That's a research paper written by a psych student. We're asking for peer reviewed, long term, clinical RESEARCH. Why is this so difficult for you to grasp?
Ha,Ha,Ha, So you accept the stories of anon posters as fact without question... but discard Pulitzer prize authors and University studies?.... Hmmm you guys make it too easy... should I cry uncle?
Ya gotta love this place.
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No, you've tried this before and failed miserably. That is not an independent, clinical study. That's a research paper written by a psych student. We're asking for peer reviewed, long term, clinical RESEARCH. Why is this so difficult for you to grasp?
Ha,Ha,Ha, So you accept the stories of anon posters as fact without question... but discard Pulitzer prize authors and University studies?.... Hmmm you guys make it too easy... should I cry uncle?
Ya gotta love this place.
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Gotta love your attempts at distraction. Nobody is claiming that survivor stories are clinical studies or research. They are survivor accounts. You are claiming that a grad student's paper equals a clinical study.
Ha ha ha. Moron.
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Gotta love your attempts at distraction. Nobody is claiming that survivor stories are clinical studies or research. They are survivor accounts. You are claiming that a grad student's paper equals a clinical study.
Ha ha ha. Moron.
No distraction.. someone asked for evidence of studies being done and I provided the following:
Academy at Swift River allowed a study to be done by a phd candidate a few years back and then there was Dave Marcus who spent 16 months living at ASR following a peer group through the process and he wrote a book on his experiences there. He won the pulitzer prize for another book he wrote.
Here is a link:
What it takes to pull me through (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content.php?sub=reviewsmenu.txt&page=bookreviews.txt)
The woman was a phd candidate from Colgate University and performed an independent study of one of the Therapeutic Boarding schools.
Here is the link for anyone interested in the facts:
http://groups.colgate.edu/cjs/student_papers/2002/VShapiro.pdf (http://http://groups.colgate.edu/cjs/student_papers/2002/VShapiro.pdf)
...and you have what?
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Academy at Swift River allowed a study to be done by a phd candidate a few years back and then there was Dave Marcus who schoolspent 16 months living at ASR following a peer group through the process and he wrote a book on his experiences there. He won the pulitzer prize for another book he wrote.
He's also a paid consultant for the industry. Objective? I think not.
The woman was a phd candidate from Colgate University and performed an independent study of one of the Therapeutic Boardings.
Like I said, she was a student working on a paper. That does not an independent, peer reviewed, long term clinical study make.
...and you have what?
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As soon as I start saying that these places work, you can ask me what I have. TBSs are the ones claiming success, the burden to prove that falls upon them.
Why are these things so difficult for you to understand?
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As soon as I start saying that these places work, you can ask me what I have. TBSs are the ones claiming success, the burden to prove that falls upon them.
Why are these things so difficult for you to understand?
So it seems you cant say they dont work because you dont have any studies... but I have a few:
Academy at Swift River allowed a study to be done by a phd candidate a few years back and then there was Dave Marcus who spent 16 months living at ASR following a peer group through the process and he wrote a book on his experiences there. He won the pulitzer prize for another book he wrote.
Here is a link:
What it takes to pull me through (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content.php?sub=reviewsmenu.txt&page=bookreviews.txt)
The woman was a phd candidate from Colgate University and performed an independent study of one of the Therapeutic Boarding schools.
Here is the link for anyone interested in the facts:
http://groups.colgate.edu/cjs/student_papers/2002/VShapiro.pdf (http://http://groups.colgate.edu/cjs/student_papers/2002/VShapiro.pdf)
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So it seems you cant say they dont work because you dont have any studies... but I have a few:
No, you have no independent, long term, peer reviewed clinical research. Dave Marcus is a paid industry consultant and Shapiro was a grad student. I understand you're intellectually challenged, but surely even you can see the difference.
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So it seems you cant say they dont work because you dont have any studies... but I have a few:
No, you have no independent, long term, peer reviewed clinical research. Dave Marcus is a paid industry consultant and Shapiro was a grad student. I understand you're intellectually challenged, but surely even you can see the difference.
Well I hear you but I dont see you posting any proof that TBS's are abusive or ineffective.. you seem to rely on anonymous posts to base your conclusions... do you have any studies to support you conclusions?
Here take a look at what I have:
Academy at Swift River allowed a study to be done by a phd candidate a few years back and then there was Dave Marcus who spent 16 months living at ASR following a peer group through the process and he wrote a book on his experiences there. He won the pulitzer prize for another book he wrote.
Here is a link:
What it takes to pull me through (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content.php?sub=reviewsmenu.txt&page=bookreviews.txt)
The woman was a phd candidate from Colgate University and performed an independent study of one of the Therapeutic Boarding schools.
Here is the link for anyone interested in the facts:
http://groups.colgate.edu/cjs/student_papers/2002/VShapiro.pdf (http://http://groups.colgate.edu/cjs/student_papers/2002/VShapiro.pdf)
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Do you think that if you just keep reposting the exact same shit, it will somehow become relevant?
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a) A book written by a survivor isn't a study anyway, so that's a misleading statement.
b) The study's outcome was inconclusive, it came down to her opinion that it could be beneficial, but as it was it was not, furthermore, she outlined abusive methods that they used.
c) WHAT positive outcome?
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thanks Who:
from the "independent study":
....For example, there is no borrowing of clothing, no retreating to the dorm rooms, no shirts without collars, no facial hair, no all black outfits, no wasting food, no frayed clothing, no eating outside of mealtime, no nail polish, no concert t-shirts, no feet on the furniture, no untied shoelaces, no hats indoors, no shorts with less than a five-inch inseam, no baggy clothing, no bare feet, no make-up, and no hemp or excessive jewelry. Violations are met with punishments such as: doing dishes, getting work projects on the weekends, reflective writing assignments, staring at yourself in the mirror for extensive b] periods of time, losing money at the school store, eating last, getting reading assignments, being put in isolation, mandating an “older” student to escort a “younger” throughout the day, sleeping on the floor in the night security office, a body search, or creating a written confessional list of your behavior violations and the violations of your peers...
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and also:
"My findings contradict the idea that making fundamental changes during late adolescence is nearly impossible (Loeber, 1991) and also dispel the myth that long-term treatment is detrimental to normal development. The most important finding of this study is that residential treatment for troubled adolescents has the potential to be extremely effective."
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thanks Who:
from the "independent study":
....For example, there is no borrowing of clothing, no retreating to the dorm rooms, no shirts without collars, no facial hair, no all black outfits, no wasting food, no frayed clothing, no eating outside of mealtime, no nail polish, no concert t-shirts, no feet on the furniture, no untied shoelaces, no hats indoors, no shorts with less than a five-inch inseam, no baggy clothing, no bare feet, no make-up, and no hemp or excessive jewelry. Violations are met with punishments such as: doing dishes, getting work projects on the weekends, reflective writing assignments, staring at yourself in the mirror for extensive b] periods of time, losing money at the school store, eating last, getting reading assignments, being put in isolation, mandating an “older” student to escort a “younger” throughout the day, sleeping on the floor in the night security office, a body search, or creating a written confessional list of your behavior violations and the violations of your peers...
You are welcome Daisy, it is an interesting study. Here are some more results:
The findings for positive adaptations are similarly optimistic. Parents believe that the social support they offer, and that the amount the child volunteers, has improved (p ? .01). Parents also think that the following areas have shown improvement (p ? .001):
the child’s grades and ease of learning,
the quality of peer relations and peer social support,
the child’s leadership skills and the child’s spirituality,
the relationships with both the mother and father,
the child feeling pleased with his or her own behaviors,
the parents feeling pleased with the child’s behaviors,
the communication and honesty in the family,
the amount of stress the family creates for the child,
the amount of stress the child creates for the family,
the degree to which the parent’s expectations of the child are fair,
and the child’s overall happiness.
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So you're quoting a PARENT OPINION SURVEY to back up something that you were once calling a study?
So an inconclusive survey turns into a fucking consumer satisfaction survey? LOL.
Nice backpedaling. Really. Too bad a fucking survey can't justify what this place does.
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So you're quoting a PARENT OPINION SURVEY to back up something that you were once calling a study?
So an inconclusive survey turns into a fucking consumer satisfaction survey? LOL.
Nice backpedaling. Really. Too bad a fucking survey can't justify what this place does.
No, same study, Niles.
Check out the second link. You will see the items broken out near the end of the study. Why dont you read it, Niles, and comment on the results instead of trying to beat up the authors?
Academy at Swift River allowed a study to be done by a phd candidate a few years back and then there was Dave Marcus who spent 16 months living at ASR following a peer group through the process and he wrote a book on his experiences there. He won the pulitzer prize for another book he wrote.
Here is a link:
What it takes to pull me through (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content.php?sub=reviewsmenu.txt&page=bookreviews.txt)
The woman was a phd candidate from Colgate University and performed an independent study of one of the Therapeutic Boarding schools.
Here is the link for anyone interested in the facts:
http://groups.colgate.edu/cjs/student_papers/2002/VShapiro.pdf (http://http://groups.colgate.edu/cjs/student_papers/2002/VShapiro.pdf)
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The study was inconclusive. She said she felt it had potential, but can't back it up. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE SAME STUDY.
Furthermore, a Parent/Consumer satisfaction survey does not count as a fucking study. There is no basis for any findings, just that she feels it COULD be something that it currently is not.
Stop repeating shit we've already debunked as if if you repeat it enough it makes it true.
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A portion from the study:
One hundred percent of parents and students that participated in this study said that they would recommend ASR to others…… My findings contradict the idea that making fundamental changes during late adolescence is nearly impossible (Loeber, 1991) and also dispel the myth that long-term treatment is detrimental to normal development. The most important finding of this study is that residential treatment for troubled adolescents has the potential to be extremely effective.
Here is a link:
What it takes to pull me through (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content.php?sub=reviewsmenu.txt&page=bookreviews.txt)
The woman was a phd candidate from Colgate University and performed an independent study of one of the Therapeutic Boarding schools.
Here is the link for anyone interested in the facts:
http://groups.colgate.edu/cjs/student_papers/2002/VShapiro.pdf (http://http://groups.colgate.edu/cjs/student_papers/2002/VShapiro.pdf)
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I love watching Niles try to discredit a Phd and pulitzer prize winning author. The desperation speaks for itself.
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I love watching Niles try to discredit a Phd and pulitzer prize winning author. The desperation speaks for itself.
Its not that difficult. Marcus is a paid consultant for the industry and Shapiro wrote that paper as a grad student. Neither Marcus' book nor Shapiro's paper amount to long term, evidence based, peer reviewed, clinical studies. Why is this so difficult a concept for you to grasp?
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I love watching Niles try to discredit a Phd and pulitzer prize winning author. The desperation speaks for itself.
Its not that difficult. Marcus is a paid consultant for the industry and Shapiro wrote that paper as a grad student. Neither Marcus' book nor Shapiro's paper amount to long term, evidence based, peer reviewed, clinical studies. Why is this so difficult a concept for you to grasp?
Where does it say he was paid by the industry?
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I don't know. Go find it yourself. Its been posted here several times and I don't have the time to look for it right now. You either believe it or you don't. If I have time later, I'll try and find it.
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http://fornits.com/smf/http://www.forni ... 12#p225612 (http://fornits.com/smf/http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=225612#p225612)
There's one, but I haven't found the 'source' yet. Again, if I have time I'll dig it up....or maybe shoot Deb an email. She'd know where it is.
Ah! And I notice he works with Rudy Bentz!!! :ftard:
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I don't know. Go find it yourself. Its been posted here several times and I don't have the time to look for it right now. You either believe it or you don't. If I have time later, I'll try and find it.
He is anything but working for the industry from what I can find. I looked on line and found the following:
“Readers will find themselves pulling for four kids in crisis – and their parents – in this absorbing account.”
— Psychology Today
“Marcus deftly intersperse his sharp observations with heart-wrenching statistics about the often crushing pressures of modern teenage life.”
— Publishers Weekly
“An astonishing profile of troubled teens. Through his focus on particular teens and their families, Marcus highlights the complexities of modern adolescence. This is a revealing and engrossing look at the recovery process.”
— Booklist
The are no links to any portions of the industry that I can find. You always promise to provide links but never do, Anne. We are starting not to believe you.
Do you have anything from outside of fornits that states he works for the industry?
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The are no links to any portions of the industry that I can find. You always promise to provide links but never do, Anne. We are starting not to believe you.
Do you have anything from outside of fornits that states he works for the industry?
You say that like I care. I really could give a shit if you believe me or not. As I stated above, either you do or you don't. IF I have time, I'll find it. If I don't, I won't.
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The are no links to any portions of the industry that I can find. You always promise to provide links but never do, Anne. We are starting not to believe you.
Do you have anything from outside of fornits that states he works for the industry?
You say that like I care. I really could give a shit if you believe me or not. As I stated above, either you do or you don't. IF I have time, I'll find it. If I don't, I won't.
Here is a link which shows his bio and afilliations and he is not connected to the industry at all from what I can see:
Dave Marcus (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content.php?sub=reviewsmenu.txt&page=bookreviews.txt)
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It wouldn't be too smart a move to put on his own website that he's getting paid by the industry now would it? Wouldn't leave much room for objectivity now, would it?
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It wouldn't be too smart a move to put on his own website that he's getting paid by the industry now would it? Wouldn't leave much room for objectivity now, would it?
Seems to be smarter than you so far. Talks about how he won the pulitzer prize. Where is that link to your claims (outside of fornits).
You like to discredit people for no reason? Why would you do that?
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I'm not. I stated what I had read about 2 years ago. YOU don't believe it. Fine, I hear ya.
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I'm not. I stated what I had read about 2 years ago. YOU don't believe it. Fine, I hear ya.
Thanks, we will just stick with "You misunderstood". In the mean time people can check for themselves:
Dave Marcus (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content.php?sub=reviewsmenu.txt&page=bookreviews.txt)
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No. I dont' think I did misunderstand and I don';t need any help from you explaining what I feel or think. Someone found it while digging around to find out about him. Shortly after, that reference was missing when we tried to find it again. What I believe happened, and this is just my opinion, is that when people DID find out he was getting paid by the industry it looked bad and he had the reference pulled.
Oh, and just sign the fuck in already.
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No. I dont' think I did misunderstand and I don';t need any help from you explaining what I feel or think. Someone found it while digging around to find out about him. Shortly after, that reference was missing when we tried to find it again. What I believe happened, and this is just my opinion, is that when people DID find out he was getting paid by the industry it looked bad and he had the reference pulled.
Oh, and just sign the fuck in already.
Nice cover, so basically in so many words is that you are saying you have nothing. Thats okay, Anne.
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Someone (besides Anne, for lack of time) please dig up the fucking link already...sheesh. Thanks.
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No. I dont' think I did misunderstand and I don';t need any help from you explaining what I feel or think. Someone found it while digging around to find out about him. Shortly after, that reference was missing when we tried to find it again. What I believe happened, and this is just my opinion, is that when people DID find out he was getting paid by the industry it looked bad and he had the reference pulled.
Oh, and just sign the fuck in already.
Nice cover, so basically in so many words is that you are saying you have nothing. Thats okay, Anne.
Yep, I said that from the beginning. Why you felt the need to go through all this I'll never understand. I read it, saw the source, was credible to me, then it mysteriously disappears a few weeks later. That's what I posted and will continue to post. You either believe it or you don't.
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Gee, Anne, I thought you were smarter than that. I fail to believe you were ever in a program. I think you are some twisted person who finds pleasure in reading about abuse.
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Ok
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Someone (besides Anne, for lack of time) please dig up the fucking link already...sheesh. Thanks.
Anne made it up, and she is caught once again in a lie. I watched this go down before when she tried to produce testimony claiming a story was written by another survivor.
This is classic back peddling but there is no where to go. She could always produce the old link and we could trace it from there but she doesnt have that either because it never existed.
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Hey, whatever gets you through the night man.
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I've now PMed the two people who wrote about Marcus conducting emotional growth seminars and asked them for the links. I'll post them when they come in.
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Who, shut the fuck up. I am so sick of you posting the same link over again. I read the dam thing and I think everyone has read it by now and it is obvious he doesnt work for the industry. I respect the guy because of the work he has done with children and who ever said he works for the industry is a liar. Anne probably made it up just to get your goat, which she did.
Dont give this idiot the megaphone people!
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I've now PMed the two people who wrote about Marcus conducting emotional growth seminars and asked them for the links. I'll post them when they come in.
marcus travels the country selling asr- despite the low 'success rate' he witnessed when he was there. watch him in action in this video. even takes a 'grad' with him.
highlighted in the video- alan and daughter, bianca.
http://www.kepplerspeakers.com/literatu ... sitiveKids (http://www.kepplerspeakers.com/literature/Marcus_Dave(PositiveParentsPositiveKids)).html
appears he decided that it wasn't financially wise to hook-up his wagon with bentz. hard to find them on the same page, except on fornits where it is archived.
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I've now PMed the two people who wrote about Marcus conducting emotional growth seminars and asked them for the links. I'll post them when they come in.
marcus travels the country selling asr- despite the low 'success rate' he witnessed when he was there. watch him in action in this video. even takes a 'grad' with him.
highlighted in the video- alan and daughter, bianca.
http://www.kepplerspeakers.com/literatu ... sitiveKids (http://www.kepplerspeakers.com/literature/Marcus_Dave(PositiveParentsPositiveKids)).html
appears he decided that it wasn't financially wise to hook-up his wagon with bentz. hard to find them on the same page, except on fornits where it is archived.
Low success rate wouldnt even be enough to allow anyone to read it here let alone discuss it openly. The book would have to really paint the industry "as a whole" to be totally abusive or employ the use of mind control of some sort before it would make the book list here. If anyone has gone outside the group and read it on their own they are not talking about it. Oz Girl read it and even admits its not all pro program and many kids didnt do well, but when she brings it up the thread typically dies. Maybe no one discusses it here because it shows the schools' transparency in that the schools are open enough to allow people to spend months viewing their process and procedures and dont have anything to hide... this goes against what many are selling here and believe the industry to be. The TBS's allow news people and grad students to spend time at the school doing studies.
Thanks for the link...
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The reason a lot of us won't read past the first few pages is that it ends up giving us nightmares because its so close to what we went through years ago. Its very sad to realize that not much has changed at all.
I'm out. Its sushi night.
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The reason a lot of us won't read past the first few pages is that it ends up giving us nightmares because its so close to what we went through years ago. Its very sad to realize that not much has changed at all.
I'm out. Its sushi night.
A little obvious you never bought the book, it doesn't even get scary until the middle!! Don't click on the video then because if you thought the book was scary the movie will make you run out of the theater.... Ha,Ha,Ha....
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I think the bottom line is an inconclusive student study that has as an opinion on the part of the author that it COULD be good, but is now not good, is in no way evidence that something is good.
Also, a book about a program written by someone who went through it is not proof anything is good either.
WHY are we still discussing this, except two programmies trying to make a violin out of a fiddle?
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Fuck this thread, it's turned to shit. :ftard:
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I think the bottom line is an inconclusive student study that has as an opinion on the part of the author that it COULD be good, but is now not good, is in no way evidence that something is good.
Also, a book about a program written by someone who went through it is not proof anything is good either.
WHY are we still discussing this, except two programmies trying to make a violin out of a fiddle?
Regardless of the outcome of the book it shows that these schools are not as secretive as people make them out to be. I have read enough to know most of them have open doors and they let this guy in to run around freely for 16 months and then wrote about it. Since the outcome wasnt all pretty it is obvious he wasnt working for the industry, but we already knew that thru his bio.
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Also, a book about a program written by someone who went through it is not proof anything is good either.
So what you are saying is living it for 16 months doesnt prove anything, So the same logic must apply to the kids. Their account cannot be taken seriously.
So who do we rely on for the truth? The parents of the kids who attended? Maybe they are more objective because they were not as emotionally involved? You could have a point, but it neutralizes alot of opinions here on fornits if this is indeed true.
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A single anecdote is not going to counter thousands of people saying the same thing that is contrary to his story. Preponderance of evidence. A cohesive story told for years by many vs a story by one.
Additionally, I seriously doubt that the program he went to was "open doors" and let him run around freely for 16 months. That is what we call BULLSHIT.
Lets get some other survivors from there to back it up. When one of the biggest complaints about programs is what amounts to coercion and brainwashing, a single story saying that "oh its not bad" doesn't really cut it. Ginger herself says she didn't know what was done to her was bad and wrong until she had been away from it long enough to know that it wasn't acceptable or even not bad.
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A single anecdote is not going to counter thousands of people saying the same thing that is contrary to his story. Preponderance of evidence. A cohesive story told for years by many vs a story by one.
Additionally, I seriously doubt that the program he went to was "open doors" and let him run around freely for 16 months. That is what we call BULLSHIT.
Lets get some other survivors from there to back it up. When one of the biggest complaints about programs is what amounts to coercion and brainwashing, a single story saying that "oh its not bad" doesn't really cut it. Ginger herself says she didn't know what was done to her was bad and wrong until she had been away from it long enough to know that it wasn't acceptable or even not bad.
Again Niles, you don’t know what you are talking about. Sooner or later a student will come on here and tell you that he followed the group thru their time there and came and went as he pleased. I know this because my daughter was attending at the same time and knew the other kids in the peer group he was following. ASR had an open door policy for him.
Niles you never set foot in a program,,, why run around here doubting other peoples stories? If people say they were abused.. listen to them. If they say they were helped listen to them too. We need to hear the stories of the people who spent time in these places. The guy wrote a book on his first hand experiences. These are the ones that really count the most!! If you start discarding firsthand accounts because of what you think you want to hear you are doing yourself and everyone else here on a fornits a great injustice.... read, listen and learn Niles!! You cant help others if you close yourself off from listening.
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The guy wrote a book on his first hand experiences.
No. They're second hand at best, seeing as he wasn't enrolled in the program and wrote about his impression of 4 other individuals' experiences.
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The guy wrote a book on his first hand experiences.
No. They're second hand at best, seeing as he wasn't enrolled in the program and wrote about his impression of 4 other individuals' experiences.
Yes, they would be first hand experiences and second hand experiences. He wrote in boh tenses.
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Who, I agree with Anne. If a survivor wrote a book it would be all first hand information. The Marcus book is a combination of first hand and second hand. He wrote the book from the viewpoint of being inside a program and could experience some of the aspects of what was going on, observe whether kids were being abused or happy or sad and interview them at various stages in their stay, but he didnot go thru the entire experience himself because he could go away at night if he pleased and as not working on any personal issues.
There was another book that was written called “Help at all cost” ,I think, by a Mai Szlavitz. I use to see it here. This is an example of a book written with just second hand information.
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Oh, I agree, thanks for clearing that up. Any book which is reporting information from interviews is considered second hand information. But as you mentioned Marcus is also reporting and writing about first hand information.
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Oh, I agree, thanks for clearing that up. Any book which is reporting information from interviews is considered second hand information. But as you mentioned Marcus is also reporting and writing about first hand information.
He can write about his first hand observations of the students, but he cannot....in any way, shape or form........write a first hand account of what its like to be inside one of those places, with no due process, no recourse, restricted/monitored/censored communication with family and no chance of leaving without conforming. Until he does two years or so exactly as the kids did, he can't speak for shit except what he observed. And believe me, that's vastly different from what the kids experience.
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Oh, I agree, thanks for clearing that up. Any book which is reporting information from interviews is considered second hand information. But as you mentioned Marcus is also reporting and writing about first hand information.
He can write about his first hand observations of the students, but he cannot....in any way, shape or form........write a first hand account of what its like to be inside one of those places, with no due process, no recourse, restricted/monitored/censored communication with family and no chance of leaving without conforming. Until he does two years or so exactly as the kids did, he can't speak for shit except what he observed. And believe me, that's vastly different from what the kids experience.
Exactly, I think we are all saying the same thing. The author can comment on the mechanics of the program. The way the kids act, what they are fed, types of meals, punishments used, structure, number of kids in a room, hours spent in school, free time etc. Which would be communicated to the reader as something like “There were between 8 and 12 children per peer group and the children would go thru the steps of the program together…”. He can also communicate what the children said by quoting them…they could be phrased like.... Bianca was upset when she emerged from her therapy session shouting “I would be better off dead then in this place!!”…….. Michael who was placed at ASR for self mutilation and dropping out of school was set to graduate in 3 weeks. He couldn’t stop talking about getting home and trying to get back to school….. in group last week Michael said “I know I am thinking too far ahead but I would really like to build boats and eventually build a boat for myself so I need to get back to school. I think I can still graduate with my class if I go to school during the summer.”
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Exactly, I think we are all saying the same thing.
No, WE're not. Not at all. Whoever is doing the observing, isn't seeing what happens behind closed doors. Just as the parents who think they know about programs because they have a kid that they shipped off to one don't know either. No one can know unless you're trapped there, just like the kids. No one can know the fear, anxiety, shame, guilt and terror that is felt.....either by physical or psychological abuses that inevitably happen in what's commonly referred to as 'group therapy' sessions (raps/profeets or any of the LGAT-type 'therapeutic community' 'positive peer pressure' techniques. They're abusive in their very nature).
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Exactly, I think we are all saying the same thing.
No, WE're not. Not at all. Whoever is doing the observing, isn't seeing what happens behind closed doors. Just as the parents who think they know about programs because they have a kid that they shipped off to one don't know either. No one can know unless you're trapped there, just like the kids. No one can know the fear, anxiety, shame, guilt and terror that is felt.....either by physical or psychological abuses that inevitably happen in what's commonly referred to as 'group therapy' sessions (raps/profeets or any of the LGAT-type 'therapeutic community' 'positive peer pressure' techniques. They're abusive in their very nature).
Wow!!! Relax Anne.... Read the book!!
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Look, unless he spent the time there exactly as the kids did, he CANNOT KNOW what it felt like and what the long term ramifications are, fully. Just like the parents CANNOT EVER KNOW fully what they experienced. Are you saying you disagree with that statement?
As I've said many times here before, when I got out of Straight I was singing their praises telling everyone that it saved my life. When people would ask me about abuse, I laughed because I had no idea, YET, the depths of what had been done to me. I didn't consider it abuse. I would parrot the same tired lines that you still hear to this day regarding these 'new and improved' mindrape mills. I needed that tough love!! Afterall, I had gotten myself into this mess, right? My brain needed a little washing, right? It was all for my own good, right? The raps were really designed just to help me 'get in touch with my feelings', right?
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
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Look, unless he spent the time there exactly as the kids did, he CANNOT KNOW what it felt like and what the long term ramifications are, fully. Just like the parents CANNOT EVER KNOW fully what they experienced. Are you saying you disagree with that statement?
No one is disputing that. Marcus never claimed he knew what the kids felt or indicated/ predicted any long term effects or outcome. He was writing about the ins and outs of a TBS from his point of view.
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You know this entire load of shit could be eliminated with a simple fix of making thinsg open and transparent.
Yeah. Don't lock them up in the middle of nowhere incommunicado and make a point of isolating them, and this shit won't happen because they won't be able to HIDE this shit. There is no need while in 'therapy' to keep someone isolated and incommunicado.
But, well, then it wouldn't be a program anymore.
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You know this entire load of shit could be eliminated with a simple fix of making thinsg open and transparent.
Yeah. Don't lock them up in the middle of nowhere incommunicado and make a point of isolating them, and this shit won't happen because they won't be able to HIDE this shit. There is no need while in 'therapy' to keep someone isolated and incommunicado.
But, well, then it wouldn't be a program anymore.
Indeed; Straight would never have been able to cover its ass had there been no "confidentiality."
(confidentiality = "what you see here, do here, and hear here remains here.")
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You know this entire load of shit could be eliminated with a simple fix of making thinsg open and transparent.
Yeah. Don't lock them up in the middle of nowhere incommunicado and make a point of isolating them, and this shit won't happen because they won't be able to HIDE this shit. There is no need while in 'therapy' to keep someone isolated and incommunicado.
But, well, then it wouldn't be a program anymore.
Exactly right!! If yiou read the book you would see that is what works about the place. These other places that lock kids up are totaly abusive and parents should never do that.
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You know this entire load of shit could be eliminated with a simple fix of making thinsg open and transparent.
Yeah. Don't lock them up in the middle of nowhere incommunicado and make a point of isolating them, and this shit won't happen because they won't be able to HIDE this shit. There is no need while in 'therapy' to keep someone isolated and incommunicado.
But, well, then it wouldn't be a program anymore.
Exactly right!! If yiou read the book you would see that is what works about the place. These other places that lock kids up are totaly abusive and parents should never do that.
Thats funny, that book and actual information about ASR differ vastly.
NOBODY CARES ABOUT YOUR PROPAGANDA.
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If you look at the informaton and some of the findings you will see that what you say, Niles, isnt accurate. Which part did you see as different?
A portion from the study:
One hundred percent of parents and students that participated in this study said that they would recommend ASR to others…… My findings contradict the idea that making fundamental changes during late adolescence is nearly impossible (Loeber, 1991) and also dispel the myth that long-term treatment is detrimental to normal development. The most important finding of this study is that residential treatment for troubled adolescents has the potential to be extremely effective.
Here is a link:
What it takes to pull me through (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content.php?sub=reviewsmenu.txt&page=bookreviews.txt)
The woman was a phd candidate from Colgate University and performed an independent study of one of the Therapeutic Boarding schools.
Here is the link for anyone interested in the facts:
http://groups.colgate.edu/cjs/student_papers/2002/VShapiro.pdf (http://http://groups.colgate.edu/cjs/student_papers/2002/VShapiro.pdf)
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Hmm.. this ASR place sounds pretty good..how much does it cost per year?
And is there an age limit?
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Hmm.. this ASR place sounds pretty good..how much does it cost per year?
And is there an age limit?
With travel about $80,000 85,000 not a whole lot more than a car. The kids are high school age. They do a nice job there and the kids are happy for the most part.
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If you look at the informaton and some of the findings you will see that what you say, Niles, isnt accurate. Which part did you see as different?
A portion from the study:
One hundred percent of parents and students that participated in this study said that they would recommend ASR to others…… My findings contradict the idea that making fundamental changes during late adolescence is nearly impossible (Loeber, 1991) and also dispel the myth that long-term treatment is detrimental to normal development. The most important finding of this study is that residential treatment for troubled adolescents has the potential to be extremely effective.
Here is a link:
What it takes to pull me through (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content.php?sub=reviewsmenu.txt&page=bookreviews.txt)
The woman was a phd candidate from Colgate University and performed an independent study of one of the Therapeutic Boarding schools.
Here is the link for anyone interested in the facts:
http://groups.colgate.edu/cjs/student_papers/2002/VShapiro.pdf (http://http://groups.colgate.edu/cjs/student_papers/2002/VShapiro.pdf)
All you did was just repost the same thing that was debunked already with another name to get around the ignore button!
It was NOT found to be effective, it was found to be in the opinion of the person making it to have the POTENTIAL to be, but it was currently inconclusive. That book does not count as a study or the work of a professional!
What the hell?
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If you look at the informaton and some of the findings you will see that what you say, Niles, isnt accurate. Which part did you see as different?
A portion from the study:
One hundred percent of parents and students that participated in this study said that they would recommend ASR to others…… My findings contradict the idea that making fundamental changes during late adolescence is nearly impossible (Loeber, 1991) and also dispel the myth that long-term treatment is detrimental to normal development. The most important finding of this study is that residential treatment for troubled adolescents has the potential to be extremely effective.
Here is a link:
What it takes to pull me through (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content.php?sub=reviewsmenu.txt&page=bookreviews.txt)
The woman was a phd candidate from Colgate University and performed an independent study of one of the Therapeutic Boarding schools.
Here is the link for anyone interested in the facts:
http://groups.colgate.edu/cjs/student_papers/2002/VShapiro.pdf (http://http://groups.colgate.edu/cjs/student_papers/2002/VShapiro.pdf)
All you did was just repost the same thing that was debunked already with another name to get around the ignore button!
It was NOT found to be effective, it was found to be in the opinion of the person making it to have the POTENTIAL to be, but it was currently inconclusive. That book does not count as a study or the work of a professional!
What the hell?
I think the reason it keeps getting posted is because you miss the point each time. The book was never intended to be a study. It was an independent account of someone who spent 16 months inside of a TBS. There was nothing clinical about it, nor was it intended to be. It seems the reason you are struggling so much with this is because you are trying to comment on a book you never read.
The "study" that was perfomed concluded that TBS have the "potential" to be extremely effective, which means much more effective then they already are.
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1) a commentary is not a justification for or proof of the effectiveness of a program
2) a study showing potential does not mean that is is
3) given the vacuum of proof supporting TBS's and the fact that rights are completely stripped from the people inside who are held captive, incommunicado and with no ability to plead their case, have a day in court or ask for help, but that the apologists of programs cite such bullshit to support their side, I have to refute that.
4) given that there is no proof, after 30+ years of a huge industry existing to support what they do and their methods, I find it amazing anyone even tries to support them.
Only in America do terror detainees have more attention put on them then children who have not committed any crimes.
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Despite what you may say, there are good programs. The trick is to be able to differentiate between the good ones and the bad ones. I have made a living doing just that.
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1) a commentary is not a justification for or proof of the effectiveness of a program
2) a study showing potential does not mean that is is
3) given the vacuum of proof supporting TBS's and the fact that rights are completely stripped from the people inside who are held captive, incommunicado and with no ability to plead their case, have a day in court or ask for help, but that the apologists of programs cite such bullshit to support their side, I have to refute that.
4) given that there is no proof, after 30+ years of a huge industry existing to support what they do and their methods, I find it amazing anyone even tries to support them.
Only in America do terror detainees have more attention put on them then children who have not committed any crimes.
If you look at the information and some of the findings you will see that what you say, Niles, isn't accurate. There was no mention of abuse in either account and the doors were wide open. There has always been this thought that the school were secretive.....the book and the study go a long way in dispelling that believe.
A portion from the study:
One hundred percent of parents and students that participated in this study said that they would recommend ASR to others…… My findings contradict the idea that making fundamental changes during late adolescence is nearly impossible (Loeber, 1991) and also dispel the myth that long-term treatment is detrimental to normal development. The most important finding of this study is that residential treatment for troubled adolescents has the potential to be extremely effective.
Here is a link:
What it takes to pull me through (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content.php?sub=reviewsmenu.txt&page=bookreviews.txt)
The woman was a PhD candidate from Colgate University and performed an independent study of one of the Therapeutic Boarding schools.
Here is the link for anyone interested in the facts:
http://groups.colgate.edu/cjs/student_papers/2002/VShapiro.pdf (http://http://groups.colgate.edu/cjs/student_papers/2002/VShapiro.pdf)
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given that there is no proof, after 30+ years of a huge industry existing to support what they do and their methods, I find it amazing anyone even tries to support them.
There is no proof that it is abusive or ineffective either.
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Despite what you may say, there are good programs. The trick is to be able to differentiate between the good ones and the bad ones. I have made a living doing just that.
Show me a good program.
Show me ANY good program!
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given that there is no proof, after 30+ years of a huge industry existing to support what they do and their methods, I find it amazing anyone even tries to support them.
There is no proof that it is abusive or ineffective either.
The fact that we're here is sufficient proof for any rational person.
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given that there is no proof, after 30+ years of a huge industry existing to support what they do and their methods, I find it amazing anyone even tries to support them.
There is no proof that it is abusive or ineffective either.
Yeah, that seems to be the big stickler point. Everyone here is asking for studies to be done but since there are not many out there then we have to go with what the opinions of past graduates and what the families have to say which has been positive with the exception of a few.
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It was an independent account of someone who spent 16 months inside of a TBS.
David Marcus was not inside the TBS. He was an outside observer.
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It was an independent account of someone who spent 16 months inside of a TBS.
David Marcus was not inside the TBS. He was an outside observer.
So you think he sat in the parking lot and wrote his book? Hmmm.. Okay?
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LAST WORD.
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http://www.flatheadbeacon.com/articles/ ... anch/29007 (http://www.flatheadbeacon.com/articles/article/russian_government_faces_off_with_eureka_adoption_ranch/29007)
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Comments to the article mentioned above:
By eavesdrop on 08-22-12
I was staff at Joyce Sterkel’s Ranch For Kids. The place is a torture chamber.
By redhawk on 08-01-12
Agree with you totally hotfish. Those kids are from Russia, of course the Russian government
would be interested in what is being done with them, and not complying with simple building code
inspections is downright wacky.
By hotfishmt on 08-01-12
Strange Deal: reading the complicated story/mess…..leave me wondering WHY…does this lady
in tbe boonies of Eureka have these Russian….adoptees…and the so called “Russian Parents”
seem to have some kind of voice in matters…yet got rid of their kids. There is definetly some
amiss here….can’t say what….but, the strange twist & denials of not allowing visits….??
Is financial support from some government agency or fund….seeing that the woman at the center
of the political mess surely is not footing the $$$ for all the kids. Or, is it some religious
organization that is trying to start a new society of non educated foreigners….to bring them all the
way from some place in Russia ??
Lots of questions & little data….and hope its not some back burner religious cult….like Jim Jones,
and if they did bring all some hundreds of former people before this present investigation….can’t
they be found & give some information ??
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I came across this comment in response to an old article about Joyce Sterkel's Ranch For Kids on an adoption message board forum. It was posted several years ago. No one responded to it.
June 25, 2009 at 3:13 pm
I think that before ANYONE wants to call Joyce Sterkel a hero they should make a surprise visit to the ranch SOON! Her son Bill (who now runs the ranch)verges on violent & dangerous with the kids. He is using the money from the parents of these kids to expand his ranch & his pocketbook, then charges extra $ for the kids to receive therapy that these kids do not get,not from a therapist anyways. The money the families pay actually goes toward noodles that the kids eat for dinner nightly,they are only allowed Milk,fresh from the cow at least, or water. And fruit that rats have taken bites out of first, the kids are forced to eat it, even after showing management the bite marks. That is 100% true,I’ve seen it. When we as staff point out these issues or stand up for the kids, they cut our hours, if that doesn’t make us quit, they try to put us down in front of the kids, in hopes the kids will lose respect for us, no longer do what we ask and give them a reason to let us go. It really is as bad as your picturing,and then some. I urge you to go see for yourself,but don’t call first or they will have the kids clean up for you by telling them the Vice President is coming so they work hard to make the place shine to impress the Vice President.(yes he did that to them, when he was preparing for a state building inspection)He uses the kids as his personal ranch hands. When the kids try to tell their parents about the mistreatment,Bill tells the parents that the kids comments cant be trusted,”they will say anything go home”. I would do anything to get these kids out of here. I work @ the ranch,its like torture watching the way these kids are treated and watching their spirits being crushed by the way Bill & his wife Lenna treat them and talk to them by mocking the kids if they bring an issue to their attention. He even shared, in front of all of the kids that one of the little boys regularly masturbates with his teddy bear. You could imagine the teasing this boy endured. There are so many reasons this place should be shut down but I fear If I go on it will seem like rambling and wont be taken seriously. The only reason I stay with this job is knowing that while I’m @ work, the kids are being treated well. Its also hard to see that all of these national publications write stories on this house of horrors and are only shown what the ranch wants them to see, so it makes Jo and Bill look like saints. At the same time the Ranch gets free advertising and its shedding a positive light on a place that should be shut down. If anyone has any ideas on who to contact to end this mistreatment please do so, or post your idea in a comment on this site! This issue is much bigger than can handle on my own, but needs to be handled immediatly.Thanks
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http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/11/ra ... n-outrage/ (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/11/ranch-becomes-focus-for-russian-adoption-outrage/)
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edited upon request