"I predict, Sir, that you will die either by hanging or of some vile disease."
"That all depends, sir, upon whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
--Disraeli to Gladstone
On 2005-09-16 10:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
did they talk about the semblers in every rap at straight?
A bishop keeps on saying at the age of eighty what he was told to say at the age of eighteen.
--Oscar Wilde
I give money for church organs in the hope the organ music will distract the congregation's attention from the rest of the service.
--Andrew Carnegie, Scottish-born American industrialist and philanthropist
On 2005-09-16 10:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I love it, you guys are great.
Non-addicts/alcoholics discussing what it takes to get clean/sober, and with self-assigned authority! What's next a forum where whites can discuss what it's like being black or the visioned can discuss how best to run your life if you're blind?"
On 2005-09-16 11:15:00, Antigen wrote:
"Now you just hold your horses, stepper! According to your own cult's criteria, I've been a hopeless addict since the age of 9 when I first took a hit off a joint. That's been over 30 years now. I should have been deadinsaneorinjail decades ago. Just how long does this shit take to start working, anyway?
On 2005-09-16 10:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
"do people speak of Bill in a.a. like they would takl about art in group at seed at see they would mention his name in every rap. did they talk about the semblers in every rap at straight?
"
On 2005-09-23 04:09:00, GregFL wrote:The program, in step 2, says "Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity" (or, a normal way of thinking and living as we say in GA) When I got serious about recovery, and approached this step, realizing finally that it was not an optional part of the process, the idea of "The God" scared hell out of me. I had heard Him compared in church to an earthly Father, and mine yelled, screamed, beat up kids, (Mom divorced him when my oldest Brother went in the Army, and Dad started coming after me) punched holes in walls, and otherwise terrorized. (he also had many good traits) If that was what God was like, I didn't want any part of it.
"Well Thom, do you propose to know which God is the correct god to worship? Isn't this a tad blasphemous in the perspective of XA?
On 2005-09-23 04:09:00, GregFL wrote:
Don't forget your beloved XA only requires you to worship SOME god, even an inanimate object like a doorknob, or even a conceptual god like "the group" in order to "get it". And then of course the magical 12 steps are then able to cure you of almost anything..including gambling, drugs, bad attitudes. But the magic powder that makes these steps work is God or at least a submission to a concept called "god", isn't that so?
BTW, care to share with us what your current involvement in the XA movement is?
If we had been born in Constantinople, then most of us would have said: "There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet." If our parents had lived on the banks of the Ganges, we would have been worshipers of Siva, longing for the heaven of Nirvana.
--
On 2005-09-24 13:25:00, Antigen wrote:
"I used to believe that dad beat on you guys. But your stories change so much over time I'm just not sure anymore. I never saw Dad hit anybody. Sure, he yelled and cussed a lot and sometimes through things around, but not at anybody.
Is that why you helped burn all his stuff? Cause you're still mad at him for hitting you?"
Come to the woods, for here is rest. There is no repose like that of the green deep woods. Here grow the wallflower and the violet. The squirrel will come and sit upon your knee, the logcock will wake you in the morning. Sleep in forgetfulness of all ill. Of all the upness accessible to mortals, there is no upness comparable to the mountains.
-- John Muir
On 2005-09-25 09:33:00, Antigen wrote:
"I know. I spent a weekend at grandma and grandpa's when Jack was there. I remember the day he came home, too. Walked in the front door, right out the back door. Then he took some kind of metal pin out of his hat and threw it as far as he could. I think it may have hit Edward square in the ass.
Then he had to go into the Seed. Then he dissapeared. Seems Mom gave him the same ultimatum I got in `83; finish the program or leave the family. What a ball buster! You think maybe that had any kind of impact on him at all?"
Thom Wrote:
I remember at The Seed they used to say "Your higher power can be a light bulb or a door knob" sometimes I would whisper to the person sitting next to me, if they seemed to have a sense of humor, 'That's it? only a light bulb or a door knob?' (I was a smart ass long before drugs and stuff) Years later, it occurred to me that you usually need a door knob to enter a room, and then a light to see once you are in. Heavy...
'The Magical 12 Steps' have their roots in the Book of James. This James was the Brother of Jesus. AA, Oxford Group, Buchman, etc. didn't invent this stuff. It's a God thing.
I believe the 12 step movement to be yet another opportunity presented by a loving, compassionate God,
I didn't "get it" If that seems like blasphemy to any 12 stepper, the problem is not mine.
On 2005-09-26 01:49:00, Thom wrote:
The hat pin thing...was that from his Army uniform hat? As far as the impact Mom's ultimatum had, I've never discussed it with him, so I don't have a legitamate answer. I would speculate, though, that it was less of an impact than that baseball bat would have had on his scull if Dad had caught up to him. Mom felt she was protecting us younger kids from a guy who by then had become a heroin user. Can you not appreciate what her intentions were? Mom and Dad (minus the bat) did their level best for us.
Impiety: Your irreverence toward my deity.
--Ambrose Bierce
On 2005-09-26 09:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
"No I think because it was mostly kids without years and years of damage. The other steps were not needed. "
for it is a truth, which the experience of all ages has attested, that the people are commonly most in danger when the means of insuring their rights are in the possession of those of whom they entertain the least suspicion.
--Alexander Hamilton
On 2005-09-23 04:09:00, GregFL wrote:
"Well Thom, do you propose to know which God is the correct god to worship? Isn't this a tad blasphemous in the perspective of XA?
Don't forget your beloved XA only requires you to worship SOME god, even an inanimate object like a doorknob, or even a conceptual god like "the group" in order to "get it". And then of course the magical 12 steps are then able to cure you of almost anything..including gambling, drugs, bad attitudes. But the magic powder that makes these steps work is God or at least a submission to a concept called "god", isn't that so?
BTW, care to share with us what your current involvement in the XA movement is?"
On 2005-09-26 08:34:00, GregFL wrote:Thom wrote: No, Greg. It really happened. I used that line more than once to get a laugh.
"Quote
Thom Wrote:
I remember at The Seed they used to say "Your higher power can be a light bulb or a door knob" sometimes I would whisper to the person sitting next to me, if they seemed to have a sense of humor, 'That's it? only a light bulb or a door knob?' (I was a smart ass long before drugs and stuff) Years later, it occurred to me that you usually need a door knob to enter a room, and then a light to see once you are in. Heavy...
Greg wrote: Actually you are giving yourself way too much credit here. Simplistic is a better term..or how about diversionary? Go ahead and admit it, you made that up trying to fill in the blanks while thinking back and trying to turn chicken shit into chicken salad.
'The Magical 12 Steps' have their roots in the Book of James. This James was the Brother of Jesus. AA, Oxford Group, Buchman, etc. didn't invent this stuff. It's a God thing.
Thom wrote: I believe the 12 step movement to be yet another opportunity presented by a loving, compassionate God, to reach those who slip through the cracks of organized religion. People who, for whatever reason, don't feel comfortable walking into a 'church service', wheather it be fear of being judged, or because they have already judged the church goers. Today, I can commune with God where ever I am. Sometimes it happens to be in a church setting.
Thom wrote: Hey man, to each his own. It is my personal belief, and it has been my experience that as long as I was stuck on a conceptual god, instead of moving on to a relationship with The Person God, I didn't "get it" If that seems like blasphemy to any 12 stepper, the problem is not mine. If I f'up at this point, having been exposed to truth, it is totally my responsibility. Greg, I get the distinct impression that you disagree with my life experience :grin:
I think I know where I got off track! I thought the 11th step said 'Sought through beer and medication to remove our conscious contact w/ God...I plead lysdexia!
I cannot believe in the immortality of the soul.... No, all this talk of an existence for us, as individuals, beyond the grave is wrong. It is born of our tenacity of life -- our desire to go on living -- our dread of coming to an end.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor
On 2005-09-26 14:35:00, Thom wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-09-26 09:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
"No I think because it was mostly kids without years and years of damage. The other steps were not needed. "
Bingo!"
On 2005-09-26 20:49:00, GregFL wrote:
"no Thom, I disagree with coerced 12 step treatment. You say it "doesn't work that way" but then go on to discount every one who had a bad experience with the Seed or any other stepcult."
What is the success ratio of AA Thom?
"
On 2005-09-26 15:20:00, Antigen wrote:
" :rofl: Yeah, that must be it.
But wait a second. What ever happened to "we were all so fucked up we would have been deadinsaneorinjail within two years" line of bullshit? Now we weren't that bad off after all, so didn't need the full strength cure?
Your powers of self delusion never cease to amaze...
On 2005-09-27 01:03:00, Thom wrote:
"Quote
What is the success ratio of AA Thom?
"
100 percent of those who want it, with the exception of some whose brains are too pickled to grasp it."
On 2005-09-27 01:03:00, Thom wrote:
"Quote
What is the success ratio of AA Thom?
"
100 percent of those who want it, with the exception of some whose brains are too pickled to grasp it."
On 2005-09-27 00:59:00, Thom wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-09-26 20:49:00, GregFL wrote:
"no Thom, I disagree with coerced 12 step treatment. You say it "doesn't work that way" but then go on to discount every one who had a bad experience with the Seed or any other stepcult."
Show me where I have discounted any one who had a bad experience with the Seed or any other 'stepcult' I try to keep it on myself. Show me where I haven't."
On 2005-09-27 00:59:00, Thom wrote:
Greg, please enlighten me, Who wrote the book of James if not the Brother of Jesus?
On 2005-09-27 02:24:00, GregFL wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-09-27 01:03:00, Thom wrote:
"Quote
What is the success ratio of AA Thom?
"
100 percent of those who want it, with the exception of some whose brains are too pickled to grasp it."
Again, without your well polished diversionary skills..what is the success rate of AA?
"
The Harvard Mental Health Letter, from The Harvard Medical School, stated quite plainly:
On their own
There is a high rate of recovery among alcoholics and addicts, treated and untreated. According to one estimate, heroin addicts break the habit in an average of 11 years. Another estimate is that at least 50% of alcoholics eventually free themselves although only 10% are ever treated. One recent study found that 80% of all alcoholics who recover for a year or more do so on their own, some after being unsuccessfully treated. When a group of these self-treated alcoholics was interviewed, 57% said they simply decided that alcohol was bad for them. Twenty-nine percent said health problems, frightening experiences, accidents, or blackouts persuaded them to quit. Others used such phrases as "Things were building up" or "I was sick and tired of it." Support from a husband or wife was important in sustaining the resolution.
Treatment of Drug Abuse and Addiction -- Part III, The Harvard Mental Health Letter, Volume 12, Number 4, October 1995, page 3.
(See Aug. (Part I), Sept. (Part II), Oct. 1995 (Part III).)
Tough Love: Abuse of a type particularly enjoyable to the abuser, in that it combines the pleasures of sadism with those of self-righteousness. Commonly employed and widely admired in 12-step groups.
--Chaz Bufe
On 2005-09-27 08:29:00, GregFL wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-09-27 00:59:00, Thom wrote:
Greg, please enlighten me, Who wrote the book of James if not the Brother of Jesus?
Well, I am doubtfull you really wanna go there, do you?
If so, start here
http://www.comparative-religion.com/chr ... /3/4/2.php (http://www.comparative-religion.com/christianity/apocrypha/new-testament-apocrypha/3/4/2.php)
http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/jamesepistle.html (http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/jamesepistle.html)
But Thom, you are opening a hornet's nest here. Better you just keep with your story.
I see what you mean. the second link took me to 'a skeptics guide to Christianity'...that's like going to Fornits for reliable recovery information, :razz: but I thank you just the same for the links.
And while your at it, care to link us to the twelve steps, or the origin of the twelve steps, contained in the Book of James?"
On 2005-09-27 07:14:00, Anonymous wrote:Thanks for correcting me with the official answer. :smile:
"Quote
On 2005-09-27 01:03:00, Thom wrote:
"Quote
What is the success ratio of AA Thom?
"
100 percent of those who want it, with the exception of some whose brains are too pickled to grasp it."
There are those too who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but they to can recover if they have the capacity to be honest."
On 2005-09-27 08:03:00, GregFL wrote:I don't post anonymously (except briefly, before I registered the first time) I do, however, choose alternate identities for humorous effect from time to time. The most recent being 'Gutless Bastard' I hope this helps you in your search.
"Quote
On 2005-09-27 00:59:00, Thom wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-09-26 20:49:00, GregFL wrote:
"no Thom, I disagree with coerced 12 step treatment. You say it "doesn't work that way" but then go on to discount every one who had a bad experience with the Seed or any other stepcult."
Show me where I have discounted any one who had a bad experience with the Seed or any other 'stepcult' I try to keep it on myself. Show me where I haven't."
You want me to pull out your anon and "other" posts Thom? Is that what you are asking?
"
This link deals with the connection between early AA, and the Epistle of James.
http://www.dickb.com/AAsJamesClub.shtml (http://www.dickb.com/AAsJamesClub.shtml)[ This Message was edited by: Thom on 2005-09-27 14:56 ]"
On 2005-09-28 20:54:00, Thom wrote:
"
Greg, as you know, there are no records of attendance kept in AA, thus, no way of accurately gauging a percentage."
"
On 2005-09-28 20:51:00, Thom wrote:
"So, the site is forthcoming about the fact that there is controversy. I read that before I posted the link. I have read much of the information and opinions on the subject and am satisfied personally that the book of James was written by a younger Brother of Jesus named James. "
On 2005-09-29 01:00:00, GregFL wrote:The word divinity refers to any supernatural being worshipped as controlling some part of the world or some aspect of life or who is the personification of a force. The twelve steps are words written on paper, and as such do not fit the definition. I do, however, believe the 12 steps are divinely inspired, that is to say, that they were given to us by God, as a guide to living a life in fellowship with Him, and, where possible, at peace with our fellow humans. Can we move on now?
"I thought we were talking about your belief in the divinity of the 12 steps...
"
On 2005-09-29 00:07:00, GregFL wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-09-28 20:54:00, Thom wrote:
"
Greg, as you know, there are no records of attendance kept in AA, thus, no way of accurately gauging a percentage."
"
AA has done a study, as well as several independent firms. "
On 2005-09-29 01:07:00, GregFL wrote:So, again, 'The 12 Steps' have their roots in the Book of James. This James was the Brother of Jesus. AA, Oxford Group, Buchman, etc. didn't invent this stuff. It's a God thing. Please note the emphasis on roots. That was my original statement before you started torturing it.
"So again, where are the twelve steps listed in the book of James?
"
On 2005-09-29 01:48:00, Thom wrote:
"QuoteThe Bible is not intended for, nor can it be accurately interpreted by a non-believer
On 2005-09-29 01:07:00, GregFL wrote:
"So again, where are the twelve steps listed in the book of James?
"
On 2005-09-29 01:24:00, Thom wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-09-29 00:07:00, GregFL wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-09-28 20:54:00, Thom wrote:
"
Greg, as you know, there are no records of attendance kept in AA, thus, no way of accurately gauging a percentage."
"
AA has done a study, as well as several independent firms. "
Well, if you already have information on this question, why are you asking me?"