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Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: cleveland on September 16, 2005, 11:14:00 AM

Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: cleveland on September 16, 2005, 11:14:00 AM
Origins of AA, and The Seed...

"Although one can find parallels between AA and the Craigie Foundation, AA really owes its existence to the Oxford Movement, founded by Lutheran minister Nathan Buchman. Buchman, in response to what he believed to have been a personal mystical religious experience, started the First Century Christian Fellowship in 1921. The goal of this group was to establish a world culture based on what Buchman considered to be the beliefs and practices of the early Christian church. Buchman tended to see everything in the context of a battle between good and evil. His vision was messianic and he equated his work and goals with God. He believed that any philosophy or ideology, particularly Communism, which disagreed with his vision of a world-wide theocracy, was inspired by Satan. He established the Four Absolutes: absolute honesty, absolute purity, absolute unselfishness, and absolute love. He referred to himself as soul surgeon. New members of his group were expected to undergo rigorous self-examination, openly confess their sins and weaknesses, surrender themselves to God, and make restitution to anyone they had harmed in the past. Additionally, they were expected to promote the organization for no fee and fund raising was a key activity of members of the fellowship.

Buchman also promoted the Four Cs: confidence in Buchman the soul surgeon, confession of sins, conviction (or acknowledgement) of ones sins, conversion to the principles of the First Century Christian Fellowship, and continuance of practice of the Fellowship rules. Besides the Four Absolutes and the Four Cs, members were also encouraged to live by specific fellowship slogans, which included give news, not views, win your argument, lose your man, and J.E.S.U.S. just exactly suits us sinners. Buchmans explicitly stated goal was mass conversion that ultimately would lead to humanity being ruled by God-Control.

The First Century Christian Fellowship grew rapidly in the 1920s. Buchman targeted recruitment activities towards men of power and influence and towards college students. He fully expected his followers to adhere to his dictates totally and to accept the veracity of his mystical experiences without question. Not surprisingly, a considerable amount of negative publicity resulted from his methods of recruitment and his group was often called both a cult and Buchmanism.

In 1929, following a series of revivals he held in England, Buchman changed the name of his group to the Oxford Group and the organization continued to flourish under the new name. His hatred of communism allowed him to see fascism as a reasonable alternative and in 1936, he was quoted as saying I thank heaven for a man like Adolph Hitler, who built a front line of defense against the anti-Christ of Communism. Think what it would mean to the world if Hitler surrendered to the control of God? The world needs the dictatorship of the living spirit of God. Hitler is Christianitys defender against Communism. Although he later admitted that he had been duped by Hitler, he did not issue a retraction. Understandably, that interview did irreparable harm to the Oxford Movement and in 1939, Buchman again changed the name of his movement, this time calling it Moral Rearmament. The influence of Moral Rearmament peaked in the 1940s and its membership declined greatly following Buchmans death in 1961.

Although Buchmans movement faded from the public view, its message is very much with us in the form of Alcoholics Anonymous, founded by Mr. Bill Wilson and Dr. Robert Smith. Bill Wilson had been cured of alcoholism by a spiritual revelation he believed he had had while at a drying out clinic. The fact that this revelation may be caused by a combination of belladonna and other drugs given to him as part of the drying out process did not seem to have bothered him. Following this experience, he began a crusade to save other alcoholics through religion. While in Akron, Ohio in 1935, he feared that a relapse was imminent and asked an Akron Protestant minister for the name of someone he could talk to who had also been addicted to alcohol. He was given the name of Dr. Robert Smith. He and Smith met and held what many consider to be the first AA meeting. The two of them attempted to cure other alcoholics with such Oxford Group principles as confession, making amends and turning ones life over to God. They used Oxford Group principles because Dr. Smith was an active Oxford Group member and was using those same principles with his patients at an Akron hospital.

Wilson and Smith considered spiritual faith to be a cornerstone of sobriety and readily subscribed to Buchmans insistence that the individual alcoholic is powerless and must rely on divine intervention to maintain sobriety. It is worth pointing out that Dr. Smith, although a medical doctor and thus presumably well versed in scientific methodology, did not use scientific methods when treating hospitalized alcoholic patients. Rather, he relied strictly on the religious principles of the Oxford Group. Both he and Wilson remained active participants in Buchmans group until 1937.

The principles of AA were unquestionably taken from those of the Oxford Group. Frank Buchmans beliefs in human powerlessness, the necessity of confession of sin, the value of taking a moral inventory of oneself, the value of making amends to others, the necessity of carrying the message to others and redemption through turning ones life over to God were adopted wholesale by Bill Wilson. Wilson simply took those central Buchmanite principles and formatted them into the 12-Step program of recovery (Lemanski, 44).

In A History of Addiction and Recovery in the United States, Mr. Lemanski goes into considerable detail into the development of the addiction treatment industry in the United States and its overwhelming reliance on the 12 Step Model. Particularly, he discusses the 12-step inspired Minnesota Model of inpatient treatment and its absolute failure as a viable treatment method for addiction. Of course, the ultimate question is: Does AA really work? From the standpoint of 12-Step recovery, the scientific data is grim regarding its efficacy. In the 1990s, three meta-analyses of substance abuse treatment were done. These studies indicated that 1. Twelve-step treatment is, as a whole, ineffective; 2. The various components of 12-Step treatment are themselves ineffective; 3. Twelve-step (especially inpatient) treatment is among the most expensive types of treatment; 4. Several cognitive-behavioral treatments are effective. 5. These effective cognitive-behavioral treatments are all either low cost or very low cost. (Lemanski, 120). In other words, despite the fact that over 90% of substance abuse counselling treatment in the United States is based on the twelve-step model, it is not an effective treatment method for substance abuse and addiction.

Mr. Lemanski notes that the success rate for the AA model is about 5% (Lemanski, 102). He points out that many twelve-step recovery centers claim a success rate of 70% and higher but these claims are due to faulty research methodology. For instance, such centers routinely ignore people who drop out of the programs and the studies do not include former patients or clients that the programs have lost track of. Additionally, they use short term sobriety as the criteria for successful outcome  and they dont bother to use comparison or control groups. Despite the low success for AA model recovery, it continues to flourish. Ironically, despite AA being an abstinence model of treatment, Mr. Bill Wilson experimented later in life with mescaline in a futile attempt to re-experience the mystical state he had had while under the influence of the medically administered drugs given to him at the drying out clinic. Mr. Wilson remained addicted to cigarettes his entire adult life and died of emphysema in 1971.

(A somewhat different version of this review appeared in the January-February, 2002 edition of BASIS.)"

- From Bay Area Skeptics website

Walter
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: marshall on September 16, 2005, 12:40:00 PM
Thanks Walter! That was very interesting.

----------
Mr. Wilson remained addicted to cigarettes his entire adult life and died of emphysema in 1971.
-----------------

Yeah. The single addiction most likely to kill you...and it's the one the Seed not only tolerated but subtly promoted. I have little doubt that I would never have kicked that habit if I'd stayed involved there.
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: JaLong on September 16, 2005, 01:00:00 PM
Clevland,
Thank you for sharing this. Many of what you said about Bill is not found anywhere in any AA books or literature. Of course not, right? We who have been in AA knew the success rate was very low. All you needed to do was to hang around 1 group for awhile. I left after 5 yrs. Many, many went back out.
Thanks again for the info.
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: GregFL on September 16, 2005, 01:05:00 PM
The success rate of the twelve step model according to AA's own internal documents is zero.  They have zero impact statistically on whether you will drink or not.

What they do provide is a support group if you CHOOSE to stop drinking, but hell, not everyone needs other people to tell them what is right or wrong.

Again, the remission rate of the general population of alcoholics that quit drinking is 95%...the remission rate of AA attendees is 95%.

This is hardly a starting point for creating a personality cult and then holding children against their will...

But again, for those that voluntarily sumbit themselves to this treatment and then profess it "Saved" them...whos to argue? Or more succintly..whats the point?  The bigger picture is how our society is shoving this treatment model down everyone's throat with zero evidence it evens works or even worse, using it as a pretense to imprison children that haven't been tried or convicted of anything.
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: Anonymous on September 16, 2005, 01:28:00 PM
do people speak of Bill in a.a. like they would takl about art in group at seed at see they would mention his name in every rap. did they talk about the semblers in every rap at straight?
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: Anonymous on September 16, 2005, 01:34:00 PM
I love it, you guys are great.
Non-addicts/alcoholics discussing what it takes to get clean/sober, and with self-assigned authority! What's next a forum where whites can discuss what it's like being black or the visioned can discuss how best to run your life if you're blind?
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: Antigen on September 16, 2005, 02:15:00 PM
Now you just hold your horses, stepper! According to your own cult's criteria, I've been a hopeless addict since the age of 9 when I first took a hit off a joint. That's been over 30 years now. I should have been deadinsaneorinjail decades ago. Just how long does this shit take to start working, anyway?

"I predict, Sir, that you will die either by hanging or of some vile disease."
 "That all depends, sir, upon whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
--Disraeli to Gladstone



_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
   10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: Antigen on September 16, 2005, 02:23:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-16 10:28:00, Anonymous wrote:

did they talk about the semblers in every rap at straight?


No, it was completely different. I think there was a concious effort by Straight founders to eliminate the cultive personality aspect of the program. They thought that was one of the essential elements that had made the Seed dangerous and abusive.

Personally, I heard the name Sembler in association w/ Drug Free America Foundation years after I got away from Straight and probably a year or more before I ever knew of any affiliation between the Semblers and Straight or the Seed.

I suppose that's a key factor in my continued outrage. Here I was engaging in discussion on drug policy w/ a bunch of happy (and some not so happy) hippies, thinking to myself "My God, where did these people come from? They sound just like Program robots." But, of course, I thought I was thinking it rhetorically and never said it out loud.

When I finally went looking for them, I found solid connections between the most lunatic drug policies and expansive, crazy statements and those very same individuals who brought us the Program (by any name). I was stunned. I honestly did like it better when I was just a little paranoid, but the world was more-or-less OK. And, ever since, almost every time I try to relay that information, some joker tells me to put a little more tin foil under my hat.

A bishop keeps on saying at the age of eighty what he was told to say at the age of eighteen.
--Oscar Wilde

Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on September 16, 2005, 03:54:00 PM
Marshall-
 In the last 10 or 15 years, no one smoked. Or maybe 1 out of 50, if even that.
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: cleveland on September 16, 2005, 04:08:00 PM
What I think is so interesting about this is the fact that the Oxford Group recruited members based upon the testimony of a strong, charismatic leader who could 'cure' them - he called himself a 'soul surgeon' (the 'gift of awareness'?) He also advocated 'absolute' purity and group confession (an ideal no one is capable of reaching, plus the bond of shame and group cohesiveness). Members recruited other members and there was a lot of talk about love. There were also many slogans, and a mistrust of logical thought. I also think it's interesting that the founder flirted with Nazism (Hitler's 'Superman' and the Seed's 'homo superior'?)

It's no surprise to me that Buchman's group came to be considered a cult, and disappeared. But look what has been left behind!

Walter
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: marshall on September 16, 2005, 05:14:00 PM
Really? That is amazing! That's the first I'd heard of that, so pardon my ignorance. How did that come about? Did Art finally manage to quit? Did someone finally realize the inconsistency  of all the talk about destroying ourselves, having no respect for ourselves (pre-seed) and continuing to slowly commit suicide via tobacco addiction? I read that Straight was anti-smoking and that at least seemed more consistent. Whatever the reason, that's good to hear. Hope you were one of the one's able to kick the habit.

It's funny...(well, not really)..but the 3 drugs I had the most trouble with in my life were all legal. I'm not even counting caffeine (sorry mormons). When I was about 14 I developed a chronic cough. The family doctor prescribed a powerful cough-medicine containing codeine. I quickly became addicted to it. Had to have it every a.m. before school. Loved the feeling and pretended to cough in order to get it. Strangely, the dependency scared me and I was slowly able to ween myself from it over several months. When I was 16 I started seeing a therapist (after a mega-dose of LSD). I was prescribed Valium for anxiety. (this was the early 70's and this was still common)  Even after all the list of druggie drugs I'd taken, valium seemed like the best thing since sliced bread. It gave me confidence and changed my personality to more outgoing and talkative. Again, I found myself taking it every day (the dr. specifically warned only to use it occasionally) before school. I remained dependent upon that until I was sent to prison. Cigarettes, codeine and valium...those were the hard one's to let go of...and none were (for me at the time) illegal.

These days I'm back to using a type of acid. Have to have it every day. Must be made from insects or something. They call it ant-acid. :silly:
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: Antigen on September 16, 2005, 07:09:00 PM
Look into meadowsweet. It's the only alternative to the antacid/prevacid regime that my dh takes that seems to keep working well for more than a month or two, has no known side effects and may actually encourage healthy regrowth of damaged stomach, duodenum and ileum tissue.


I give money for church organs in the hope the organ music will distract the congregation's attention from the rest of the service.
--Andrew Carnegie, Scottish-born American industrialist and philanthropist

Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: GregFL on September 17, 2005, 02:58:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-09-16 10:34:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I love it, you guys are great.

Non-addicts/alcoholics discussing what it takes to get clean/sober, and with self-assigned authority! What's next a forum where whites can discuss what it's like being black or the visioned can discuss how best to run your life if you're blind?"


This forum is replete with graduates/attendees of AA and AA type programs. Who better to discuss and explore the concepts?


You know "anon" you come across as bitter and confrontational to all that don't agree with you.

 Just where did you obtain those personality traits? Ever think of focusing a little of your hyper-critical analysis of others inward?

If so, I respectully suggest  starting with your anti-social propensity to lash out at people that don't share your beliefs.
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: Anonymous on September 17, 2005, 03:14:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-09-16 11:15:00, Antigen wrote:

"Now you just hold your horses, stepper! According to your own cult's criteria, I've been a hopeless addict since the age of 9 when I first took a hit off a joint. That's been over 30 years now. I should have been deadinsaneorinjail decades ago. Just how long does this shit take to start working, anyway?



Well Ging if you continue along this destructive path, you may die at 80, thereby proving their point!

 :grin:

Gregfl
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: cleveland on September 19, 2005, 09:51:00 AM
From "The Religious Roots of AA by Agent Orange:"

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-religiousroots.html (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-religiousroots.html)

"The truth is that a failed stock analyst and newly-sober alcoholic named William G. Wilson just sat down, in December of 1938, and wrote up twelve commandments for the new religious group that he and fellow alcoholic Doctor Robert Smith had started. Those commandments were simply a repackaged version of the practices of a cult religion that was popular at that time, something called "The Oxford Group", or "The Oxford Group Movement", a religious cult created by a deceitful fascist renegade Lutheran minister named Dr. Frank Nathan Daniel Buchman. The practices of the Oxford Group were:

1) Admission of personal defeat (You have been defeated by sin).

2) Taking of personal inventory. (List your sins.)

3) Confession of one's sins to another person.

4) Making restitution to those one has harmed.

5) Helping others selflessly.

6) Praying to God for the power to put these precepts into practice.

There was also one more very important requirement, not listed in these six practices, "Go recruit more members." (Actually, many believers would say, "It is so listed. It's Practice Five. Converting people to the right religious beliefs and 'principles', so that they can get into Heaven too, is definitely helping them. So working all day long to get new converts for the group is 'helping others selflessly.'")
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: cleveland on September 19, 2005, 09:52:00 AM
More from "The Religious Roots of AA by Agent Orange:"

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-religiousroots.html (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-religiousroots.html)

"Note that a hierarchical, authoritarian system of control of members is very typical of cults.
So is the teaching that you cannot trust your own mind or your own thoughts, and must turn to the cult's mentors or elders for guidance.
And so is the attitude that newcomers can't think right.
And so is the deceit that "we have no structure or system", when in fact they have a very despotic system of control. "
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: cleveland on September 19, 2005, 09:53:00 AM
Even more from "The Religious Roots of AA by Agent Orange:"

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-religiousroots.html (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-religiousroots.html)

"The Either/Or Technique -- Bifurcation -- the Excluded Middle
Present the audience with only extreme either/or, black-or-white choices, while admitting to no gray areas inbetween. Consider only the two extremes in a range of possibilities, to make the "other side" look worse than it really is. Carl Sagan called this the "excluded middle" technique.
The Excluded Middle technique also includes:

Short-term versus long-term comparison -- a subset of the excluded middle -- "why pursue fundamental science when we have so huge a budget deficit?".
Slippery slope -- another subset of the excluded middle -- make unwarranted extrapolations of the effects of a course of action, like: "give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile."
For example:


"If you're not one of us, you're one of them."
This is called "the sheep and goat distinction".

"If you aren't a dirty, lying Communist, then of course you agree with us, and you will be happy to join our John Birch Society (or the KKK, or the Nazi party, etc.)..."

"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters." [Matthew 12:30]

"Those who are not with us are against us." [Comrade Vladimir Ilich Lenin, Russia, 1917]

"You are either part of the solution, or part of the problem."

"Either you are Serving the Lord (as our church defines it) or you are serving the Forces of Evil."

"Either you are a fanatical true believer like us, or you are an evil hard-boiled atheist."

"Either you are willing to commit your entire life to our great cause or else you are a wimp, a weak hand, and a real loser."
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: cleveland on September 19, 2005, 09:56:00 AM
Substitute "The Seed" for AA:

It's all a big bait-and-switch con game. There are so many bait-and-switch stunts pulled in Alcoholics Anonymous that it borders on amazing:

First, Bill Wilson declared that Alcoholics Anonymous was only one of many ways to achieve sobriety, then he declared that it was The Only Way.
First, A.A. is just a nice neighborhood quit-drinking self-help group, and then it's a hard-core religion.
First, it's only a "spiritual" alcoholism recovery program, and then it's a fundamentalist religion (that they won't admit is a religion).
Shifting objectives: First the goal is to quit drinking, and then the goal is to "acquire faith" and "come to believe" in Bill Wilson's religion.
First, they will tell you that you can "Take what you want, and leave the rest." Then they will tell you that you can't ever leave.
First, they will tell you that you can do it your way. Then they will tell you that you must do it their way.
First, they will tell you that the Twelve Steps are only suggested as a program of recovery, but then you hear the slogan "Work The Steps Or Die".
First, God loves you, and then He doesn't.
First, they tell you that Alcoholics Anonymous is a program of "rigorous honesty", and then it's gross dishonesty: "Fake It Until You Make It" and "Act As If" and "Don't tell the newcomers..."
First, it's just a quiet, confidential program of attraction, then it's a tough-love program of steel-fisted coercion and promotion.
First, you get easy-going tolerance, and then, death threats.
First, the story is that the Twelve Steps will work and make you quit drinking, and then they won't.
Redefine Words: First a word means one thing, and then it means something else.
First, the insanity referred to in Step Two means that you have been insanely drinking enough alcohol to kill you, but then "insanity" means that you have not been living according to God's will.
First, Alcoholics Anonymous is a community of equals, just a nice neighborhood self-help group, and then it's a hierarchical dictatorship with Bill Wilson at the top.
First, you are an adult, and then you are a child.
First, the alcoholics who are still drinking are our brothers, our "fellow travelers" -- people who should be granted sympathy, understanding, unconditional love, and complete acceptance -- and then the alcoholics who won't conform to the A.A. program are just worthless bums.
First, a cure, and then, no cure. First, hope of recovery, and then hopelessness.
The medical-to-moral morph.
First you aren't supposed to feel guilty, and then you are.
First they will tell you that alcoholism is not a moral stigma, and then they will tell you that it is.
First they will tell you that an alcoholic is just an good person who can't control his drinking, but later they will tell you that an alcoholic is a disgusting selfish evil creature who has a "spiritual disease".
First they tell you that "There are no 'MUSTS' in Alcoholics Anonymous, only suggestions", but then they will tell you that there are many necessities and musts.
First it isn't political, and then it is.
First, they tell you to do an honest, complete, "moral inventory", and then they tell you to only talk about your "wrongs" and "character defects" and "moral shortcomings".
First, ego-mania, and then abject humility. First, happiness, and then sadness.
First, ego-destruction, and then bombastic delusions of grandeur.
First, expect a great religious or spiritual experience, and then expect nothing.
First, "unconditional love" and then hateful contempt.
First, A.A. tells you to "Think, Think, Think", but later it's "Stop Your Stinkin' Thinkin'."
First, A.A. tells you that "A.A. requires no beliefs," but then you have to believe everything they tell you, and have blind faith in the proclamations of Bill Wilson.
First, prospective new members are offered a tolerant, open-minded "spiritual" program, but then they get narrow-minded demands for belief in Bill Wilson's teachings.
First, you can keep your own religion, and then you can't.
First it's "Surrender to God" and then it's "surrender to some A.A. members".
First, it's "any God as you understand Him", and then it's "You don't understand God."
First, declarations of Religious Freedom, and then demands for Religious Conformity.
First, a loosely-defined "Higher Power", and then an explicitly-defined "God".
Redefine God. First you get one God, then you get a different God.
Hide from newcomers what membership entails. First show them one image, then show them another image.
Offer them medical treatment for alcoholism, but give them the twelve-step religion.
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: cleveland on September 19, 2005, 10:19:00 AM
Many of these could be applied to The Seed:

See the Agent Orange AA website for more. It's amazing.

1. The Guru is always right.
2. You are always wrong.
3. No Exit.
4. No Graduates.
5. Cult-speak.
6. Group-think.
7. Irrationality.
8. Suspension of disbelief.
9. Denigration of competing sects, cults, religions...
10. Personal attacks on critics.
11. Insistence that the cult is THE ONLY WAY.
12. The cult and its members are special.
13. Induction of guilt, and the use of guilt to manipulate cult members.
14. Dogma, Unquestionable Dogma, and Sacred Science.
15. Indoctrination of members.
16. Appeals to "holy" or "wise" authorities.
17. Instant Community.
18. Instant Intimacy.
19. Surrender To The Cult.
20. Giggly wonderfulness and starry-eyed faith.
21. Personal testimonies of earlier converts.
22. The cult is self-absorbed.
23. Dual Purposes.
24. Aggressive Recruiting.
25. Deceptive Recruiting.
26. No Humor.
27. You can't tell the truth.
28. Cloning -- You must redefine yourself and your life in cult terms.
29. You must change your beliefs to conform to the group's beliefs.
30. The End Justifies The Means.
31. Dishonesty, Deceit, Denial, Falsification, and Rewriting History.
32. Different Levels of Truth.
33. Newcomers can't think right.
34. The Cult Implants Phobias.
35. The Cult is Money-Grubbing.
36. Confession Sessions.
37. A System of Punishments and Rewards.
38. An Impossible Superhuman Model of Perfection.
39. Mentoring.
40. Intrusiveness.
41. Disturbed Guru, Mentally Ill Leader.
42. Disturbed Members, Mentally Ill Followers.
43. Create a sense of powerlessness, covert fear, guilt, and dependency.
44. Dispensed existence
45. Ideology Over Experience, Observation, and Logic
46. Keep them unaware that there is an agenda to change them
47. Thought-Stopping Language. Thought-terminating clichés and slogans.
48. Mystical Manipulation
49. The guru or the group demands ultra-loyalty and total committment.
50. Demands for Total Faith and Total Trust
51. Members Get No Respect. They Get Abused.
52. Inconsistency. Contradictory Messages
53. Hierarchical, Authoritarian Power Structure, and Social Castes
54. Front groups, masquerading recruiters, hidden promoters, and disguised propagandists
55. Belief equals truth
56. Use of double-binds
57. The cult leader is not held accountable for his actions.
58. Everybody else needs the guru to boss him around, but nobody bosses the guru around.
59. The guru criticizes everybody else, but nobody criticizes the guru.
60. Dispensed truth and social definition of reality
61. The Guru Is Extra-Special.
62. Flexible, shifting morality
63. Separatism
64. Inability to tolerate criticism
65. A Charismatic Leader
66. Calls to Obliterate Self
67. Don't Trust Your Own Mind.
68. Don't Feel Your Feelings.
69. The cult takes over the individual's decision-making process.
70. You Owe The Group.
71. We Have The Panacea.
72. Progressive Indoctrination and Progressive Commitments
73. Magical, Mystical, Unexplainable Workings
74. Trance-Inducing Practices
75. New Identity -- Redefinition of Self -- Revision of Personal History
76. Membership Rivalry
77. True Believers
78. Scapegoating and Excommunication
79. Promised Powers or Knowledge
80. It's a con. You don't get the promised goodies.
81. Hypocrisy
82. Denial of the truth. Reversal of reality. Rationalization and Denial.
83. Seeing Through Tinted Lenses
84. You can't make it without the cult.
85. Enemy-making and Devaluing the Outsider
86. The cult wants to own you.
87. Channelling or other occult, unchallengeable, sources of information.
88. They Make You Dependent On The Group.
89. Demands For Compliance With The Group
90. Newcomers Need Fixing.
91. Use of the Cognitive Dissonance Technique.
92. Grandiose existence. Bombastic, Grandiose Claims.
93. Black And White Thinking
94. The use of heavy-duty mind control and rapid conversion techniques.
95. Threats of bodily harm or death to someone who leaves the cult.
96. Threats of bodily harm or death to someone who criticizes the cult.
97. Appropriation of all of the members' worldly wealth.
98. Making cult members work long hours for free.
99. Total immersion and total isolation.
100. Mass suicide.
Bibliography
[ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2005-09-19 07:19 ]
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: marcwordsmith on September 21, 2005, 01:58:00 PM
I'm struck by a few things as I read this thread. The first is that, simply, I find it hard to believe that the 12-step recovery programs, including AA, have only about a 5% success rate. It seems, based on people I know and have known, that they actually do much better than that. I have a good deal of respect for 12-step programs, which are voluntary, nurturing programs for adults who are in a lot of pain. As far as I can tell, these programs, even with their cult-like trappings, do much more good than harm.

But Walter's history at the beginning of this thread is most interesting. Why IS it that prophets, sages, charismatic individuals throughout time immemorial receive certain "revealed truths" which DO affect great positive changes in themselves and those around them--but then once these revelations are codified and rigidified into a self-perpetuating system or philosophy or organization, they almost always lend themselves to some very crazy thinking at best, and abusive behavior at worst?

I'm thinking right now, for example, of Hasidic Judaism. (I myself am Jewish, so I hope this is all right for me to talk about.) Hasidism was begun by a rabbinical mystic known as the Baal Shem Tov, who was an ecstatic, effusive visionary. And yet the movement that proceeded from his insights is full of so much solemnly prescribed ritual, such strict methods of dress and highly structured modes of worship, it seems almost antithetical to the original spirit of the Baal Shem Tov's vision.  

I actually do believe in revealed truths. I just think human rationality and logic are a safeguard, a criterion against which "divinely revealed" truths must ultimately be measured. And not all revealed truths turn out to be true, let alone 100% true.

I think the allure of revealed truth is that life is so complicated and confusing--it's comforting and seductive to get to feel unconflicted, 100% sure about anything.

Go Walter! Thanks for this thread.
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: GregFL on September 21, 2005, 02:04:00 PM
Marc, the 5% success rate comes from AA's own internal documents.

What happens is that most "alcoholics" really are bing drinkers. When an AA member goes on a binge, he just backslid and starts over. "I am Marc and have been Sober for 6 months"  never mind that you have been attending AA for 20 years. Get it?
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: cleveland on September 21, 2005, 03:10:00 PM
Marc,

Religion has always fascinated me, and frightened me. I always want to believe, yet once I get into the guts of an actual church (or synagogue, my wife is jewish)(our baby too!) I tend to lose interest (though I have a fondness for reform judiasm, with its tolerance and social justice. But then there is Israel vs. Palestine - ugh).

I do believe that religions, and cults, and AA, and the Seed too, all are able to 'call up' this altered state that can be religious ecstacy. It seems to be in our wiring. This can then be used for good, or for bad. But that is why the Seed still has a draw - I felt some of that energy and ecstacy. Still do, in memory. Otherwise the Seed would have no fascination for me. And Art would not have had the charisma that he had. And I wouldn't have stuck around for 7 years!

Walter
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: Anonymous on September 22, 2005, 12:21:00 PM
You've got to love Alcoholics Anonymous.Every day it's like watching the Hindenburg burst into waste and destruction--one flaming,incinerated cocksucker at a time.
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: Thom on September 23, 2005, 12:55:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-09-16 10:28:00, Anonymous wrote:

"do people speak of Bill in a.a. like they would takl about art in group at seed at see they would mention his name in every rap. did they talk about the semblers in every rap at straight?

"

Many in AA are Billy-Bob worshippers. They even put out a coin with their images on it (anniversary token) My sense is that they haven't quite made the transition to God. If they don't drink, and keep an open mind, they'll get there.
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: GregFL on September 23, 2005, 07:09:00 AM
Well Thom, do you propose to know which God   is the correct god to worship? Isn't this a tad blasphemous in the perspective of XA?

Don't forget your beloved XA only requires you to worship SOME god, even an inanimate object like a doorknob, or even a conceptual god like "the group"  in order to "get it". And then of course the magical 12 steps are then able to cure you of almost anything..including gambling, drugs, bad attitudes. But the magic powder that makes these steps work is God or at least a submission to a concept called "god", isn't that so?

BTW, care to share with us what your current involvement in the XA movement is?
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: Thom on September 24, 2005, 05:54:00 AM
Good questions, Greg! This is what I beleive:

Quote
On 2005-09-23 04:09:00, GregFL wrote:

"Well Thom, do you propose to know which God   is the correct god to worship? Isn't this a tad blasphemous in the perspective of XA?
The program, in step 2, says "Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity" (or, a normal way of thinking and living as we say in GA) When I got serious about recovery, and approached this step, realizing finally that it was not an optional part of the process, the idea of "The God" scared hell out of me. I had heard Him compared in church to an earthly Father, and mine yelled, screamed, beat up kids, (Mom divorced him when my oldest Brother went in the Army, and Dad started coming after me) punched holes in walls, and otherwise terrorized. (he also had many good traits) If that was what God was like, I didn't want any part of it.


The cool part of the program, when not church affiliated, is that you are free to decide what or who God is. It took alot of pressure off for me. My first perception, then, of a power greater than myself was a guy in the group who had managed to put together 2.5 years of abstinance. I didn't think he was my Creator, but I figured the odds were good that if I tried to do what he was doing, I may be able to find some freedom from my obsession to gamble. Eventually, he came off the pedestal when I realized he was a nut like me, but had found a way to stop self-destructing. I asked him to be my sponsor after about 8 months in the program...trust came hard for me.


It was then suggested that I pray, and ask that power to reveal Him/Her self to me in a way I could understand. I did, and He did...gradually. It seems it was more important to Him that I find freedom than that I call Him by any particular name. Kinda reminds me of how a parent of young children will put gifts under the Christmas tree 'from Santa' and get a thrill watching the kids open them, knowing they will not get a thankyou (unless they blow their cover)


Quote
On 2005-09-23 04:09:00, GregFL wrote:


Don't forget your beloved XA only requires you to worship SOME god, even an inanimate object like a doorknob, or even a conceptual god like "the group"  in order to "get it". And then of course the magical 12 steps are then able to cure you of almost anything..including gambling, drugs, bad attitudes. But the magic powder that makes these steps work is God or at least a submission to a concept called "god", isn't that so?


That is sort of how I understand the process. I would use 'suggests' where you have 'requires' though. I remember at The Seed they used to say "Your higher power can be a light bulb or a door knob" sometimes I would whisper to the person sitting next to me, if they seemed to have a sense of humor, 'That's it? only a light bulb or a door knob?' (I was a smart ass long before drugs and stuff) Years later, it occurred to me that you usually need a door knob to enter a room, and then a light to see once you are in. Heavy...but I didn't get stuck on inanimate objects. I knew that was meant to challenge us to think about it.


'The Magical 12 Steps' have their roots in the Book of James. This James was the Brother of Jesus. AA, Oxford Group, Buchman, etc. didn't invent this stuff. It's a God thing.


I believe the 12 step movement to be yet another opportunity presented by a loving, compassionate God, to reach those who slip through the cracks of organized religion. People who, for whatever reason, don't feel comfortable walking into a 'church service', wheather it be fear of being judged, or because they have already judged the church goers. Today, I can commune with God where ever I am. Sometimes it happens to be in a church setting.


Quote
BTW, care to share with us what your current involvement in the XA movement is?



Sure, I attend 1-2 GA meetings a week, and squeeze in an AA meeting now and then. More involved in GA, where I have been involved on several levels of service work, locally, regionally, and nationally. We don't have Staff Members or an earthly Leader,  don't need 'em. So I guess we don't pass the cult test. Also, my Wife and I run http://www.pgcosci.org (http://www.pgcosci.org) Long story, take a look.


It is my personal belief, and it has been my experience that as long as I was stuck on a conceptual god, instead of moving on to a relationship with The Person God, I didn't "get it" If that seems like blasphemy to any 12 stepper, the problem is not mine.


Using the Magic Powder of God has enabled me to find long term freedom from gambling, drinking, smoking, pornography, even cheating on taxes! These monkeys didn't drop off all at once. My bad, not God's. He has been there, ready to help all along. I am fully aware that for some, drinking, gambling, pornography can be enjoyed without being obsessed over. That didn't happen to be the case for me, so, they had to go. I don't miss them at all. I hope I have addressed all of your questions, because I'm starting to get 'typers cramp'
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: Antigen on September 24, 2005, 04:25:00 PM
I used to believe that dad beat on you guys. But your stories change so much over time I'm just not sure anymore. I never saw Dad hit anybody. Sure, he yelled and cussed a lot and sometimes through things around, but not at anybody.

Is that why you helped burn all his stuff? Cause you're still mad at him for hitting you?

If we had been born in Constantinople, then most of us would have said: "There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet." If our parents had lived on the banks of the Ganges, we would have been worshipers of Siva, longing for the heaven of Nirvana.
--

Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: Thom on September 24, 2005, 08:16:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-24 13:25:00, Antigen wrote:

"I used to believe that dad beat on you guys. But your stories change so much over time I'm just not sure anymore. I never saw Dad hit anybody. Sure, he yelled and cussed a lot and sometimes through things around, but not at anybody.


Is that why you helped burn all his stuff? Cause you're still mad at him for hitting you?"

You were 5 years old when Jack left the nest, just narrowly ahead of the tip of a base ball bat as Dad chased him for about 3 blocks until he found shelter at the Hardin's house. I don't know what the crime was that last time. He stayed with the Hilliards (Our Grandparents, long time 12 steppers - back to around 1940) until he escaped into the Army. I never suffered any severe beatings, just a few shoves before Mom got the picture that it was starting over again. Dad had a lot of rage, likely from dealing with Mom.  :wink:  As for burning his stuff, your information is faulty. That was Jim and Kathi. If I had been there, I would have salvaged the items they foolishly sold to a shop keeper in town at an extremely large loss to the estate. I have never been mad at Dad. I didn't fully understand why he didn't come around much after the divorce until I experienced a very similar situation to his. My memories of Dad are fond, because I know he did the very best he could do to prepare us for life. He loved us all. I still miss him terribly.
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: Antigen on September 25, 2005, 12:33:00 PM
I know. I spent a weekend at grandma and grandpa's when Jack was there. I remember the day he came home, too. Walked in the front door, right out the back door. Then he took some kind of metal pin out of his hat and threw it as far as he could. I think it may have hit Edward square in the ass.

Then he had to go into the Seed. Then he dissapeared. Seems Mom gave him the same ultimatum I got in `83; finish the program or leave the family. What a ball buster! You think maybe that had any kind of impact on him at all?

Come to the woods, for here is rest. There is no repose like that of the green deep woods. Here grow the wallflower and the violet. The squirrel will come and sit upon your knee, the logcock will wake you in the morning. Sleep in forgetfulness of all ill. Of all the upness accessible to mortals, there is no upness comparable to the mountains.
-- John Muir

Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: Thom on September 26, 2005, 04:49:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-09-25 09:33:00, Antigen wrote:

"I know. I spent a weekend at grandma and grandpa's when Jack was there. I remember the day he came home, too. Walked in the front door, right out the back door. Then he took some kind of metal pin out of his hat and threw it as far as he could. I think it may have hit Edward square in the ass.



Then he had to go into the Seed. Then he dissapeared. Seems Mom gave him the same ultimatum I got in `83; finish the program or leave the family. What a ball buster! You think maybe that had any kind of impact on him at all?"

The hat pin thing...was that from his Army uniform hat? As far as the impact Mom's ultimatum had, I've never discussed it with him, so I don't have a legitamate answer. I would speculate, though, that it was less of an impact than that baseball bat would have had on his scull if Dad had caught up to him. Mom felt she was protecting us younger kids from a guy who by then had become a heroin user. Can you not appreciate what her intentions were? Mom and Dad (minus the bat) did their level best for us. If you were able to see past your nose to the upbringing THEY had, you would be amazed at how well they did with the roll models  they had for parents. Dad escaped to the Navy to get 3 squares a day, and was almost immediately sent to Pearl Harbor on cleanup duty shortly after 12/7/41. His Parents divorced while he was at war. He grew up watching his Dad beat up on his Mom. That is why, with the exception of a spanking early on, he vowed never to strike Mom. But the rage was still there. He vowed to not drink while we were growing up after discovering early in their marriage the he was a candidate for alcohol abuse. (being careful not to infer powerlessness here  :smile: ) But the rage was still there. He tried AA, but didn't feel comfortable in Haines' domain. Some of the items found in his trailer after he died were an AA big book, and 12 and 12. Can you not see? The 12 steps are in your blood! You, too will be assimilated! I LOVE ME, I LOVE THE SEED, I LOVE ME, I LOVE THE SEED!...sorry, I'm back now... I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that Lois was the only one of us to have something like a healthy send off. Coincidentally, she never used drugs till she went to college. The rest of us were, to use Dad's expression, "A pack of God damned savages!" Straight happened, I don't deny that. It was more than half your life ago.
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: GregFL on September 26, 2005, 11:34:00 AM
Quote

Thom Wrote:

 I remember at The Seed they used to say "Your higher power can be a light bulb or a door knob" sometimes I would whisper to the person sitting next to me, if they seemed to have a sense of humor, 'That's it? only a light bulb or a door knob?' (I was a smart ass long before drugs and stuff) Years later, it occurred to me that you usually need a door knob to enter a room, and then a light to see once you are in. Heavy...


Actually you are giving yourself way too much credit here. Simplistic is a better term..or how about diversionary? Go ahead and admit it, you made that up trying to fill in the blanks while thinking back and trying to turn chicken shit into chicken salad.

It is to most people Thom just plain and simple BULLSHIT. your XA is a religion and many of us don't wish to join. Describing God as a light bulb is bullshit, or as "THE GROUP" even more bullshit, piled higher and smelling even worse.  The problem Thom is that you steppers always think you have the magic bullet, and then you wanna go forcing it on the rest of us thru coercise techniques..the courts..locking kids up..you name it is has been done and continues to be so.

WE DON"T WANT YOUR STINKING RELIGION.

Thanks anyway.

Quote

'The Magical 12 Steps' have their roots in the Book of James. This James was the Brother of Jesus. AA, Oxford Group, Buchman, etc. didn't invent this stuff. It's a God thing.


More bullshit and your transparency continues thru your use of the word magical. It is not. and the book of James wasn't written by the brother of Jesus. See how you steppers can't even get your own religion right?


 and while we are on the topic, yes it is a "god" thing. Except it isn't presented as such. XA and so forth sucks you in with simplistic comments about "God being anything" but as you progress they say things like "maybe you aren't praying hard enough" or "praying properly". Tell us, how do you pray properly to a chair?  BULLSHIT again on your XA because they start out violating the first and most vlagrantly ignored rule from day one, diverting you from the real roots of the organization..God worship.

Quote





I believe the 12 step movement to be yet another opportunity presented by a loving, compassionate God,


And I don't. I think it to be the delusional process of a bunch of people that have voluntarily or otherwise joined a group that is conjoined by a sense of worthlessness, powerlessness, and other disjointed therories as to why they fuck up all the time.

Quote


I didn't "get it" If that seems like blasphemy to any 12 stepper, the problem is not mine.



Hey Thom, as to why the seed, the seed university, the seed thruout the land, seedlings returning to every community to bring the program there, the seed as the savior of america's youth,Seedlings as homo superior,  The totally honest and aware seedling, and all the other seed ideals that failed....

Do ya think that maybe this was because Art violated the tenants of your religion and only embraced 7 of the steps and then adopted coercise mind control and involuntarily lock down as replacements for the rest of those "magical" steps?

 :grin:
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: Anonymous on September 26, 2005, 12:21:00 PM
No I think because it was mostly kids without years and years of damage. The other steps were not needed.
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: Antigen on September 26, 2005, 01:04:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-26 01:49:00, Thom wrote:

The hat pin thing...was that from his Army uniform hat? As far as the impact Mom's ultimatum had, I've never discussed it with him, so I don't have a legitamate answer. I would speculate, though, that it was less of an impact than that baseball bat would have had on his scull if Dad had caught up to him. Mom felt she was protecting us younger kids from a guy who by then had become a heroin user. Can you not appreciate what her intentions were? Mom and Dad (minus the bat) did their level best for us.


Yes, it was part of his uniform. He said it had been sticking into his forehead for something like two years.

But what's Crazy Mac w/ a baseball bat got to do w/ mom kicking Jack out? It was years later. Dad had moved out already.

And yes, I fully apreciate how rough both of our parents' lives were and why they did what they did. Had that conversation w/ Dad 20 years ago.

Did you know that, when he stopped in Stone Mountain on the way to DC, he actually tried to have me arrested on false charges? I know very well he was into the drink to an alarming degree there for awhile.

He apologized to me for all of that. He realized by then that much of the impetus for those radical moves had been pure bullshit.

That's the difference between us and you and the rest of the Hilliards. Mom was still coniving to force me into treatment for her imaginary drug problem as late as 15 years ago. That's when I quit talking to her.

As far as what was in the trailer, that's just about anybody's guess. When I was there w/ you in November, there was a Warbis family portrait on the wall. Next time I saw the place, someone had removed it. I wonder who did that and why? But then, you're all bug all nuts. Who knows why you people do anything that you do? I do miss the old man, though, and consider myself very fortunate to have made peace w/ him and had an authentic relationship for the last 15 or so years of his life. I'm still a little heartbroken that we can't do what he told us to and build a homestead on that land.


Impiety: Your irreverence toward my deity.
--Ambrose Bierce

Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: Thom on September 26, 2005, 05:35:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-26 09:21:00, Anonymous wrote:

"No I think because it was mostly kids without years and years of damage. The other steps were not needed. "

Bingo!
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: Antigen on September 26, 2005, 06:20:00 PM
:rofl: Yeah, that must be it.

But wait a second. What ever happened to "we were all so fucked up we would have been deadinsaneorinjail within two years" line of bullshit? Now we weren't that bad off after all, so didn't need the full strength cure?

Your powers of self delusion never cease to amaze...


for it is a truth, which the experience of all ages has attested, that the people are commonly most in danger when the means of insuring their rights are in the possession of those of whom they entertain the least suspicion.    
--Alexander Hamilton



_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
   10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: Thom on September 26, 2005, 06:35:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-23 04:09:00, GregFL wrote:

"Well Thom, do you propose to know which God   is the correct god to worship? Isn't this a tad blasphemous in the perspective of XA?

Don't forget your beloved XA only requires you to worship SOME god, even an inanimate object like a doorknob, or even a conceptual god like "the group"  in order to "get it". And then of course the magical 12 steps are then able to cure you of almost anything..including gambling, drugs, bad attitudes. But the magic powder that makes these steps work is God or at least a submission to a concept called "god", isn't that so?

BTW, care to share with us what your current involvement in the XA movement is?"

Quote
On 2005-09-26 08:34:00, GregFL wrote:

"
Quote

Thom Wrote:

 I remember at The Seed they used to say "Your higher power can be a light bulb or a door knob" sometimes I would whisper to the person sitting next to me, if they seemed to have a sense of humor, 'That's it? only a light bulb or a door knob?' (I was a smart ass long before drugs and stuff) Years later, it occurred to me that you usually need a door knob to enter a room, and then a light to see once you are in. Heavy...


Greg wrote: Actually you are giving yourself way too much credit here. Simplistic is a better term..or how about diversionary? Go ahead and admit it, you made that up trying to fill in the blanks while thinking back and trying to turn chicken shit into chicken salad.

Thom wrote: No, Greg. It really happened. I used that line more than once to get a laugh.


Greg wrote: It is to most people Thom just plain and simple BULLSHIT. your XA is a religion and many of us don't wish to join. Describing God as a light bulb is bullshit, or as "THE GROUP" even more bullshit, piled higher and smelling even worse.  The problem Thom is that you steppers always think you have the magic bullet, and then you wanna go forcing it on the rest of us thru coercise techniques..the courts..locking kids up..you name it is has been done and continues to be so. WE DON"T WANT YOUR STINKING RELIGION.

Thanks anyway.

Thom wrote: You are most welcome. So don't join! I don't believe the steps work for anyone who doesn't want them. I have never used the courts or locking kids up or any other involuntary means to force anything on anyone. I don't think it works that way.


Quote



'The Magical 12 Steps' have their roots in the Book of James. This James was the Brother of Jesus. AA, Oxford Group, Buchman, etc. didn't invent this stuff. It's a God thing.





Greg wrote: More bullshit and your transparency continues thru your use of the word magical. It is not. and the book of James wasn't written by the brother of Jesus. See how you steppers can't even get your own religion right?

Thom wrote: My use of the word magical was sarcasticly used in direct response to your question, quoted at the beginning of this post in which you refer to the magical steps. Greg, please enlighten me, Who wrote the book of James if not the Brother of Jesus?


 Greg wrote: and while we are on the topic, yes it is a "god" thing. Except it isn't presented as such. XA and so forth sucks you in with simplistic comments about "God being anything" but as you progress they say things like "maybe you aren't praying hard enough" or "praying properly". Tell us, how do you pray properly to a chair?


Thom wrote: Sorry, I wouldn't have a clue how to pray to a chair.


 Greg wrote: BULLSHIT again on your XA because they start out violating the first and most vlagrantly ignored rule from day one, diverting you from the real roots of the organization..God worship.


Quote


Thom wrote: I believe the 12 step movement to be yet another opportunity presented by a loving, compassionate God, to reach those who slip through the cracks of organized religion. People who, for whatever reason, don't feel comfortable walking into a 'church service', wheather it be fear of being judged, or because they have already judged the church goers. Today, I can commune with God where ever I am. Sometimes it happens to be in a church setting.



Greg wrote: And I don't. I think it to be the delusional process of a bunch of people that have voluntarily or otherwise joined a group that is conjoined by a sense of worthlessness, powerlessness, and other disjointed therories as to why they fuck up all the time.



Quote

Thom wrote: Hey man, to each his own. It is my personal belief, and it has been my experience that as long as I was stuck on a conceptual god, instead of moving on to a relationship with The Person God, I didn't "get it" If that seems like blasphemy to any 12 stepper, the problem is not mine. If I f'up at this point, having been exposed to truth, it is totally my responsibility. Greg, I get the distinct impression that you disagree with my life experience  :grin:


_________________
later, Thom

I think I know where I got off track! I thought the 11th step said 'Sought through beer and medication to remove our conscious contact w/ God...I plead lysdexia!

Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: Antigen on September 26, 2005, 07:01:00 PM
Ya' know, it's really not healthy to have an invisible friend past early childhood.

I cannot believe in the immortality of the soul.... No, all this talk of an existence for us, as individuals, beyond the grave is wrong. It is born of our tenacity of life -- our desire to go on living -- our dread of coming to an end.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor



_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
   10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: GregFL on September 26, 2005, 11:49:00 PM
no Thom, I disagree with coerced 12 step treatment. You say it "doesn't work that way" but then go on to discount every one who had a bad experience with the Seed or any other stepcult.

You are just immersed, swimming in this 12 step thing Thom. You seem not to be able to function without defining yourself thru it.  I think that is just plain sad.
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: GregFL on September 26, 2005, 11:55:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-26 14:35:00, Thom wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-09-26 09:21:00, Anonymous wrote:


"No I think because it was mostly kids without years and years of damage. The other steps were not needed. "


Bingo!"


Well, Bingo of a sorts....  http://fornits.com/anonanon/video/bingo.ram (http://fornits.com/anonanon/video/bingo.ram)

The fact is, that is just more bullshit justifications you guys use.  Didn't need the rest of the steps?  How about didn't need any of them...the vast majority of us weren't addicts and never developed your particular compulsions Thom. Others became addicts AFTER the steps..what does that say for your beloved treatment model.

What is the success ratio of AA Thom?
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: Thom on September 27, 2005, 03:59:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-09-26 20:49:00, GregFL wrote:

"no Thom, I disagree with coerced 12 step treatment. You say it "doesn't work that way" but then go on to discount every one who had a bad experience with the Seed or any other stepcult."

Show me where I have discounted any one who had a bad experience with the Seed or any other 'stepcult' I try to keep it on myself. Show me where I haven't.
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: Thom on September 27, 2005, 04:03:00 AM
Quote

What is the success ratio of AA Thom?

"

100 percent of those who want it, with the exception of some whose brains are too pickled to grasp it.
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: Thom on September 27, 2005, 04:06:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-09-26 15:20:00, Antigen wrote:

" :rofl: Yeah, that must be it.



But wait a second. What ever happened to "we were all so fucked up we would have been deadinsaneorinjail within two years" line of bullshit? Now we weren't that bad off after all, so didn't need the full strength cure?



Your powers of self delusion never cease to amaze...

Who are you quoting here, Ging? It isn't me.
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: GregFL on September 27, 2005, 05:24:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-09-27 01:03:00, Thom wrote:

"
Quote


What is the success ratio of AA Thom?


"


100 percent of those who want it, with the exception of some whose brains are too pickled to grasp it."


Again, without your well polished diversionary skills..what is the success rate of AA?
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: Anonymous on September 27, 2005, 10:14:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-09-27 01:03:00, Thom wrote:

"
Quote


What is the success ratio of AA Thom?


"


100 percent of those who want it, with the exception of some whose brains are too pickled to grasp it."


There are those too who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but they to can recover if they have the capacity to be honest.
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: GregFL on September 27, 2005, 11:03:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-09-27 00:59:00, Thom wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-09-26 20:49:00, GregFL wrote:


"no Thom, I disagree with coerced 12 step treatment. You say it "doesn't work that way" but then go on to discount every one who had a bad experience with the Seed or any other stepcult."


Show me where I have discounted any one who had a bad experience with the Seed or any other 'stepcult' I try to keep it on myself. Show me where I haven't."


You want me to pull out your anon and "other" posts Thom? Is that what you are asking?
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: GregFL on September 27, 2005, 11:29:00 AM
Quote


On 2005-09-27 00:59:00, Thom wrote:

Greg, please enlighten me, Who wrote the book of James if not the Brother of Jesus?



Well, I am doubtfull you really wanna go there, do you?

If so, start here

http://www.comparative-religion.com/chr ... /3/4/2.php (http://www.comparative-religion.com/christianity/apocrypha/new-testament-apocrypha/3/4/2.php)

http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/jamesepistle.html (http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/jamesepistle.html)

But Thom, you are opening a hornet's nest here. Better you just keep with your story.

And while your at it, care to link us to the twelve steps, or the origin of the twelve steps, contained in the Book of James?
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: Thom on September 27, 2005, 04:36:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-27 02:24:00, GregFL wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-09-27 01:03:00, Thom wrote:


"
Quote



What is the success ratio of AA Thom?



"




100 percent of those who want it, with the exception of some whose brains are too pickled to grasp it."




Again, without your well polished diversionary skills..what is the success rate of AA?



"

Greg, as you know, there are no records of attendance kept in AA, thus, no way of accurately gauging a percentage.
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: Antigen on September 27, 2005, 04:58:00 PM
That's ok. As an organization and as a group, they haven't got a great track record for honesty and integrity anyway. But there are other, better ways to gain access to the information we're looking for here. Here's one example of a peer reviewed study by a respectable institution:

Quote
The Harvard Mental Health Letter, from The Harvard Medical School, stated quite plainly:


On their own
There is a high rate of recovery among alcoholics and addicts, treated and untreated. According to one estimate, heroin addicts break the habit in an average of 11 years. Another estimate is that at least 50% of alcoholics eventually free themselves although only 10% are ever treated. One recent study found that 80% of all alcoholics who recover for a year or more do so on their own, some after being unsuccessfully treated. When a group of these self-treated alcoholics was interviewed, 57% said they simply decided that alcohol was bad for them. Twenty-nine percent said health problems, frightening experiences, accidents, or blackouts persuaded them to quit. Others used such phrases as "Things were building up" or "I was sick and tired of it." Support from a husband or wife was important in sustaining the resolution.

Treatment of Drug Abuse and Addiction -- Part III, The Harvard Mental Health Letter, Volume 12, Number 4, October 1995, page 3.
(See Aug. (Part I), Sept. (Part II), Oct. 1995 (Part III).)



Tough Love: Abuse of a type particularly enjoyable to the abuser, in that it combines the pleasures of sadism with those of self-righteousness. Commonly employed and widely admired in 12-step groups.
--Chaz Bufe

Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: Thom on September 27, 2005, 05:44:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-27 08:29:00, GregFL wrote:

"
Quote


On 2005-09-27 00:59:00, Thom wrote:

Greg, please enlighten me, Who wrote the book of James if not the Brother of Jesus?


Well, I am doubtfull you really wanna go there, do you?

If so, start here

http://www.comparative-religion.com/chr ... /3/4/2.php (http://www.comparative-religion.com/christianity/apocrypha/new-testament-apocrypha/3/4/2.php)

http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/jamesepistle.html (http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/jamesepistle.html)

But Thom, you are opening a hornet's nest here. Better you just keep with your story.

I see what you mean. the second link took me to 'a skeptics guide to Christianity'...that's like going to Fornits for reliable recovery information,  :razz:  but I thank you just the same for the links.

And while your at it, care to link us to the twelve steps, or the origin of the twelve steps, contained in the Book of James?"


This link deals with the connection between early AA, and the Epistle of James.
http://www.dickb.com/AAsJamesClub.shtml (http://www.dickb.com/AAsJamesClub.shtml)[ This Message was edited by: Thom on 2005-09-27 14:56 ]
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: Thom on September 27, 2005, 06:19:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-27 07:14:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-09-27 01:03:00, Thom wrote:


"
Quote



What is the success ratio of AA Thom?



"




100 percent of those who want it, with the exception of some whose brains are too pickled to grasp it."




There are those too who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but they to can recover if they have the capacity to be honest."
Thanks for correcting me with the official answer.  :smile:
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: Thom on September 27, 2005, 06:26:00 PM
[ This Message was edited by: Thom on 2005-09-27 15:31 ]
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: Thom on September 27, 2005, 06:33:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-27 08:03:00, GregFL wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-09-27 00:59:00, Thom wrote:


"
Quote


On 2005-09-26 20:49:00, GregFL wrote:



"no Thom, I disagree with coerced 12 step treatment. You say it "doesn't work that way" but then go on to discount every one who had a bad experience with the Seed or any other stepcult."




Show me where I have discounted any one who had a bad experience with the Seed or any other 'stepcult' I try to keep it on myself. Show me where I haven't."




You want me to pull out your anon and "other" posts Thom? Is that what you are asking?



"
I don't post anonymously (except briefly, before I registered the first time) I do, however, choose alternate identities for humorous effect from time to time. The most recent being 'Gutless Bastard' I hope this helps you in your search.
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: Anonymous on September 27, 2005, 06:45:00 PM
so, what is the success ratio of AA Thom?
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: GregFL on September 27, 2005, 11:42:00 PM
Quote


This link deals with the connection between early AA, and the Epistle of James.

http://www.dickb.com/AAsJamesClub.shtml (http://www.dickb.com/AAsJamesClub.shtml)[ This Message was edited by: Thom on 2005-09-27 14:56 ]"



Hmm, your own link states this. Building your house out of a deck of cards, are ya Thom?

"the Epistle of James has been the subject of controversy both as regards the identity of the writer, and as to the time of writing? (p. 1847, note 3)]. This question of identity is: Was the author James,the Lord, brother, or was it someone else? There has been uncertainty about the authorship, and there have been several theories that attempt to resolve the question."
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: Thom on September 28, 2005, 11:51:00 PM
So, the site is forthcoming about the fact that there is controversy. I read that before I posted the link. I have read much of the information and opinions on the subject and am satisfied personally that the book of James was written by a younger Brother of Jesus named James.
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: Thom on September 28, 2005, 11:54:00 PM
Greg, as you know, there are no records of attendance kept in AA, thus, no way of accurately gauging a percentage."
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: GregFL on September 29, 2005, 03:07:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-09-28 20:54:00, Thom wrote:

"



Greg, as you know, there are no records of attendance kept in AA, thus, no way of accurately gauging a percentage."

"


AA has done a study, as well as several independent firms.
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: GregFL on September 29, 2005, 03:07:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-09-28 20:51:00, Thom wrote:

"So, the site is forthcoming about the fact that there is controversy. I read that before I posted the link. I have read much of the information and opinions on the subject and am satisfied personally that the book of James was written by a younger Brother of Jesus named James. "


Of course you are, your entire house of cards is built around the 12 steps coming from a divine source, isn't it?
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: Thom on September 29, 2005, 03:35:00 AM
Tough to answer your question in that form as I don't consider my faith in God to be a house of cards.
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: GregFL on September 29, 2005, 04:00:00 AM
I thought we were talking about your belief in the divinity of the 12 steps...
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: GregFL on September 29, 2005, 04:07:00 AM
So again, where are the twelve steps listed in the book of James?
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: Thom on September 29, 2005, 04:22:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-09-29 01:00:00, GregFL wrote:

"I thought we were talking about your belief in the divinity of the 12 steps...



"
The word divinity refers to any supernatural being worshipped as controlling some part of the world or some aspect of life or who is the personification of a force. The twelve steps are words written on paper, and as such do not fit the definition. I do, however, believe the 12 steps are divinely inspired, that is to say, that they were given to us by God, as a guide to living a life in fellowship with Him, and, where possible, at peace with our fellow humans. Can we move on now?
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: Thom on September 29, 2005, 04:24:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-09-29 00:07:00, GregFL wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-09-28 20:54:00, Thom wrote:


"





Greg, as you know, there are no records of attendance kept in AA, thus, no way of accurately gauging a percentage."


"




AA has done a study, as well as several independent firms.  "

Well, if you already have information on this question, why are you asking me?
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: Thom on September 29, 2005, 04:48:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-09-29 01:07:00, GregFL wrote:

"So again, where are the twelve steps listed in the book of James?



"
So, again, 'The 12 Steps' have their roots in the Book of James. This James was the Brother of Jesus. AA, Oxford Group, Buchman, etc. didn't invent this stuff. It's a God thing. Please note the emphasis on roots. That was my original statement before you started torturing it.

not listed there. concepts are laid out there for believers. The Bible is not intended for, nor can it be accurately interpreted by a non-believer, who does not have the indwelling of The Holy Spirit for guidance. You have shown yourself to be at best skeptical of the Bible, so why are we even having this discussion? If you sincerely want these answers, I suggest you talk to a Pastor or Priest. They are more knowledgable than I am. I'm done with this discussion.
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: GregFL on September 29, 2005, 07:07:00 AM
and again, the book of james was not credibly written by the brother of Jesus, was not even admitted into the bible until the 4th century, is likely the work of an anonymous writer posing as James, the brother of Jesus, and was likely written way after any reasonable amount of time any brother of Jesus could have survived. All one would have to do is look at legitimate historical resources (not religious ones) that have studied the historocity of The Book of James.

Further, there is no reference at all to the 12 steps in the book of james, rather, there is a backward searching attempt at matching the steps to some of the writings. Anyone practicing the first step would clearly see this.

Finaly, your admission that you feel the 12 steps are divinly inspired shines a spotlight on the fact that AA is not much more than a thinly veiled religion, and as such forcing people to attend is a clear violation of the Constitution of the United States. But Thom, step away..it is YOUR right under the consitution to do so.

Yes, we can now move on, unless you have something more.
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: GregFL on September 29, 2005, 07:10:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-09-29 01:48:00, Thom wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-09-29 01:07:00, GregFL wrote:


"So again, where are the twelve steps listed in the book of James?





"

The Bible is not intended for, nor can it be accurately interpreted by a non-believer


Oh please, believe first, then understand later?  How about understand first, then come to believe...that is a much more rational approach not to just religion but to life itself.

Believing first, then "interpreting" the writings is an open invitation to do what you have done, make things up and conclude before you know...things like "the book of James was written by the brother of Jesus" for instance.
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on September 29, 2005, 08:17:00 AM
Greg,
How did you learn to ride a bike without training wheels?  Think about it. :grin:
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: GregFL on September 29, 2005, 10:21:00 AM
well, after so much time, it is time to take the training wheels off your brains.


 :grin:  :grin:  :grin:
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on September 29, 2005, 10:28:00 AM
I sold my training wheels to Cher many years ago.

Do you and Antigen sing "I got you babe" to each other at the end of a long day?

 :grin:  :grin:  :grin:  :grin:  :grin:  :grin:  :grin:  :grin:  :grin: :grin:   :grin:
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: GregFL on September 29, 2005, 10:35:00 AM
They say that love won't pay the  rent..before its thru the money's all been speeent!


I don't think Bill would appreciate that!


But hey, it beats the hokey pokey any day!

 :grin:  :grin:
Title: The Oxford Group
Post by: GregFL on September 29, 2005, 10:42:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-09-29 01:24:00, Thom wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-09-29 00:07:00, GregFL wrote:


"
Quote


On 2005-09-28 20:54:00, Thom wrote:



"







Greg, as you know, there are no records of attendance kept in AA, thus, no way of accurately gauging a percentage."



"







AA has done a study, as well as several independent firms.  "


Well, if you already have information on this question, why are you asking me?"


Because I thought your program spin on it would be entertaining.

What is the Success rate of AA Thom, according to AA's own internal documents.  And what is the success rate of those that haven't attended 12 step treatment.

And why?

 :grin: