Fornits
General Interest => Open Free for All => Topic started by: SUCK IT on August 09, 2010, 01:50:14 PM
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I thought I'd start a topic on a different topic than the usual discussions about programs. This topic is about suicide.
do you think suicide is a justifiable option for people to take? Or do you think we have a right to be angry with people who choose to do this? I have known people who have done it and I don't know what to think really. It doesn't really matter to get mad at them because they are gone. But at the same time I think that people should be able to do with their lives that they want. But I think people who kill themselves have a mental illness, that is temporary and that if it can be addressed and get them through the crisis most people will not feel that way 100% of the time.
I wonder sometimes what percentage of people kill themselves on a whim, like after a breakup or job loss and see a bridge and jump off it, compared to people who think about it for a long time and buy a gun, wait out the waiting period, and then still go ahead and do it. I also wonder if people purposely make suicide look like an accident, like a car accident or something so the people who know them don't realize they did it on purpose. This seems like a risky option because what if you didn't die and ended up in a wheelchair or something, I would be worried about that when crashing my car on purpose or something like that. I'm sure there are other ways to make it look like an accident I'm not aware of though.
I think suicide is a big problem in our society, more people die of suicide than do of terrorism but there isn't much money spent on preventing it. This is a problem that strikes people of all types, from rich to poor, from girls to boys, and all races and populations on the world. I think it's a serious problem that needs to be addressed. So let's have a discussion about it. Have you ever thought about suicide? Why did you feel that way? What made you decide to not go through with it? What do you think is the best way to help people who are at risk or talking about suicide?
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Well, seeing as you posted the topic in a message board dedicated to discussing the TTI, it's quite appropriate. I've lost several wonderful people that have killed themselves because they said they couldn't handle the damage done to them in Straight. I also visited one of my best friends in the hospital here (they live elsewhere but came here to die where the damage was done) because they attempted, and damn near succeeded, in offing themselves. It's not a pretty sight, it's not funny, it's not mere coincidence. These people I've spoken with (especially the very dear friend of mine) directly said that they didn't know how to deal with the damage that was done while in Straight and what it did to their family. That's the reason I say that the damage is deep and LASTING. Hell, I've finally gotten to the point where I can at least deal with it thru REAL therapy and the help of some amazing friends and a helluva family (except my father, he still thinks he did the right thing even though I got much worse after 'graduating'). What was done to us, especially at the age when we're developing into adulthood, is no less than torture. I know that sounds melodramatic, but it's not. I came damn close many times because for years I believed what they told me about myself. When I say that it's like taking an egg scrambler to your psyche, I'm not exaggerating.
Then when I saw the 1974 Sam Ervin report stating that Straight used the same tactics on us that the Koreans used on our POWs, it blew my mind. Yes, I realize that he was speaking about the Seed, but we all know that Straight was a direct descendant of the Seed and in a lot of ways, worse from what I've heard from Seed survivors.
My commedt in blue below.
http://reason.com/archives/2006/12/28/t ... led-teen/1 (http://reason.com/archives/2006/12/28/the-trouble-with-troubled-teen/1)
In 1974 Sen. Sam Ervin, the North Carolina Democrat best known for heading the congressional committee that investigated Watergate, presented a report to Congress entitled “Individual Rights and the Federal Role in Behavior Modification.” Ervin and other members of Congress were concerned about federal funding for efforts to change people’s behavior against their will, seeing a fundamental threat to liberty if such efforts were successful. The report cited The Seed as an example of programs that “begin by subjecting the individual to isolation and humiliation in a conscious effort to break down his psychological defenses.” It concluded that such programs are “similar to the highly refined brainwashing techniques employed by the North Koreans in the early 1950’s.”
The Seed Germinates
Ervin’s report led Congress to cut off The Seed’s funding. But The Seed had produced two important true believers: Mel Sembler, who went on to serve as campaign finance chairman for the Republican Party during the 2000 election season and as U.S. ambassador to Italy from 2001 to 2005, and Joseph Zappala, who would go on to serve under the first President Bush as ambassador to Spain and who at the time was also a major Republican campaign donor.
In 1976 Sembler and Zappala founded a program virtually identical to The Seed, staffed by former Seed parents and participants (including some who had become Seed staffers). They named it Straight Incorporated. The federal agency that had funded The Seed, the Law Enforcement Assistance Agency, had been barred from funding further human experiments because neither the agency nor projects like The Seed had procedures for informed consent. Despite that fact, and despite the congressional critique of The Seed, Straight soon received federal money from the same agency. It, too, never informed parents that it was experimental.
Straight expanded rapidly in the ’80s, around the same time newspapers, TV, and other media were filled with dire warnings about the dangers of crack. Nancy Reagan called it her “favorite” drug program. In fact, it was a visit to Straight, suggested by Sembler, that had inspired the first lady to make drugs her cause. I was there for her little visit. They locked up the "misbehavors" in the time out rooms so Nancy couldn't hear the screams.
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Thank you Anne Bonney for your informed and informational post. I am wondering what if anything you think can be done to help people who are thinking about suicide? Did your friend regret attempting suicide, or did they end up trying it again later on? Again, thanks for your post.
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Thank you Anne Bonney for your informed and informational post. I am wondering what if anything you think can be done to help people who are thinking about suicide? Did your friend regret attempting suicide, or did they end up trying it again later on? Again, thanks for your post.
They somewhat regretted it, but then when the PTSD hit them hard again, they started thining about it.
Did you read the Sam Ervin report? If so, what do you think of it? The Seed lost its funding because of the report but because Sembler was so rich and powerful in St. Pete, he just started his own and from what I hear from Seedlings, Straight was worse. IMO, mainly because of Virgil Miller Newton. If I believed in god or the devil, Virgil would be the devil.
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I know some of the older programs were really bad. I'm glad they don't exist anymore. I don't consider my own experience to be like those who had negative experiences, but I believe those who claim it was bad. I have no reason. not to. I have not read a lot of reports about it though, but I understand your point. I hope when people seek treatment it is helpful and positive experience, not a bad and negative experience. I think everyone can agree on that.
It's interesting that people have reoccurring thoughts of suicide. How can people like that be helped? Our government spends billions fighting things like terrorism, but when it comes to big killers like suicide, it's like it doesn't even exist. I feel like it is an epidemic, and so disturbing that I think it needs to be addressed more. But I don't have any solutions, all I have is questions. Maybe it's just a part of the human condition, I don't know.
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Anne, I also want to thank you for your post.
I have another experience to relate. Every person I have met that committed suicide or attempted also had a dysfunctional relationship with there parent, parents or guardian. There was a severe lack of trust and a strong feeling by the child that they felt not loved or cared for. This situation was happening long before they (parents) made the decision to set in motion this calamity of errors, sending their child to Straight or Elan. To add more injury to the child, during their stay at these facilities the impaired relationship got worse and upon leaving the relationship still received no encouragement.
Some parents just did not have a clue for multiple reasons.
Anne I place the blame right at the feet of the parents not the programs.
Just my two cents from experience.
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Anne Bonney wrote:
Then when I saw the 1974 Sam Ervin report stating that Straight used the same tactics on us that the Koreans used on our POWs, it blew my mind. Yes, I realize that he was speaking about the Seed, but we all know that Straight was a direct descendant of the Seed and in a lot of ways, worse from what I've heard from Seed survivors.
Absolutly 100 o/o factual, actual , everything is satisfactional
zippidy do da zip
Sorry. For a moment there.....
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Anne; Excellent post and thanks, You may wish to read The physiology of brainwashing and conversion, Wm. Sargent, about 1955, or Donald Mclean, out of Toronto, about mid-70's.
Sargent worked at putting men back together, Mclean worked at taking them apart. Mclean's work is harder to find, and much of it is classified.(Still!) Thanks again.J.O.M.
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I love this, now we have Suicides, Child Molesters, Murderers of Parents, James Ray and who knows what else will be blamed on Programs/Treatment Centers.
I'm sure there is a study out there associating "turtle groping/fondling/molesting to gross negligence of bathroom privileges.
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Great discussion!
My thoughts are that people who commit suicide are trying to escape a very difficult situation and dying seems like the only way out at that point for them. I would think teenagers would be most susceptible to this because they have little life experience to deal with overwhelming emotions and feelings of rejection, anger, guilt, feeling unloved or victimized. Teenagers are more trapped than adults because they don’t have the resources to make a change and running away to start over means living on the streets. Anyone who has raised a son or daughter through the teenage years knows that these feelings affect almost every child, but if you couple this with Bipolar Disorder, Alcohol/Substance Use Disorders, Schizophrenia, Borderline Personality Disorder or Suppressed bad memories of childhood then the risk could increase substantially if the child doesn’t get the help he/she needs.
I think in older adults suicide is less of an option because they would be leaving a family high and dry without support and life insurance doesn’t pay out for suicides. This brings up the question (some else raised this also) of how many accidental deaths are actually planned so that they could leave their families better off financially.
Later in life suicide is driven by an erosion of a persons quality of life. Once a persons' quality of life drops below what they feel is tolerable long term then suicide is considered. In cases of terminal cancer for example.
So I believe most suicides are the result of being in a situation in which the person feels hopeless. These feelings can be amplified by mental illness or substance abuse/ disorder or a chemical imbalance. If there were defined signs that we could look out for and we could intervene I believe that most feelings of suicide could be abated by very simple intervention and time. I don’t feel people spend their whole lives wishing to die, just small segments in which they become vulnerable and we miss the opportunity to save them.
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Whooter wrote:
I believe most suicides are the result of being in a situation in which the person feels hopeless
Really? No shit! You gotta' be kidding me!
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Whooter wrote:
"If there were defined signs that we could look out for and we could intervene I believe that most feelings of suicide could be abated by very simple intervention and time. I don’t feel people spend their whole lives wishing to die, just small segments in which they become vulnerable and we miss the opportunity to save them".
Whooter, I am new here and I thought I would sort of introduce myself by saying thank you for your comments concerning suicide. Especially the comments above.
Families do miss the signs, especially in today two parent working households, children are left alone and unattended to for far to long, on a day to day bases.
Parents do need to pay attention more today then ever, it seems that mental disorders and personality disorders are more prevalent today then ever, this could also have to do with the large baby boomers population and consequently their large population of children.
I agree people do not wish to die from the time they were born, at least anecdotally I don't think so. That is why I believe that having a spiritual inner guide during times when trust with humans has been compromised is so important.
This forum is very interesting, in so far as the people here seem to miss opportunities to really join together and send a message to the public. That we are diverse in our opinions yet we are not in our ambitions to see children are not abused.
I had some thoughts I wanted to share, I have been poking around for about a month, just trying to get a feel for the place here. Whether I would fit in or not. I think I can have some positive input here. We will see.
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Oh so now the troll brigade wants to talk about suicide?
Let's talk about Layne Brown. Layne went to Tranquility Bay. He came back with serious problems (no shit!). He tried to talk to the Kays to make them admit what they did to him; they didn't respond. One guess as to what he ended up doing (shame it didn't involve the Kays, though).
David J. Chalmers (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=27990) sure had his addictions treated by ASR, didn't he?
Richard DeMaar (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30763), part of the Pile, managed to kill himself in the Laurel Ridge Treatment Center.
Seattle Children's Home. They KNEW Ashlie Bunch was suicidal. They had her on five-minute suicide watch. Eh, we can just sluff this off, right? (http://http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2010051029_apwasuicidelawsuit.html)
Ooh, here's one. Franklin McGill. He went to MBA, Hyde, AND Sober Living By the Sea. So this (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=27023) comes as really no surprise.
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Here are some actual numbers (not sure if all the links are still working):
There is a clear advantage in having a child in a private program versus the public sector.
I think you will see that after you eliminate the state run hospitals and boot camps the numbers look pretty good.
You can click on the program type to get more detail if needed.[/b]
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July 1, 2000 thru June 2001 Children 8-18 years of age.
Public Sector: -------There were 1,466 Homicides and 1,493 suicides , 2,959 Total (NCES, CDC)
Therapeutic Industry:
TBS (http://http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249129#p249129) ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 1 suicides, ----- 1 Total
Wilderness (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249130) -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
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Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 1 suicides, ----- 1 Total
___________________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2001 thru June 2002 Children 8-18 years of age.
Public Sector: -------There were 1,468 Homicides and 1,400 suicides , 2,868 Total (NCES, CDC)
Therapeutic Industry:
TBS (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249129) ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
Wilderness (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249130) -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
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Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
___________________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2002 thru June 2003 Children 8-18 years of age.
Public Sector: -------There were 1,515 Homicides and 1,331 suicides , 2,846 Total (NCES, CDC)
Therapeutic Industry:
TBS (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249129) ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
Wilderness (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249130) -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
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Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
___________________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2003 thru June 2004 Children 8-18 years of age.
Public Sector: -------There were 1,437 Homicides and 1,285 suicides , 2,722 Total (NCES, CDC)
Therapeutic Industry:
TBS (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249129) ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
Wilderness (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249130) -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
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Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
TBS - Therapeutic Boarding Schools
NCES National Center for Education Statistics
CDC -- Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
* - Data found here on fornits, internet news articles (caica.org, isaccorp.org), posts and PM?s.... All deaths are verified thru local news articles.
X -- Incomplete or unavailable
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Aaaaaaaand here Whooter is with his bullshit copypasta again. Was refuted the first time he posted it, no point bothering going through that again.
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Whooter wrote:
"If there were defined signs that we could look out for and we could intervene I believe that most feelings of suicide could be abated by very simple intervention and time. I don’t feel people spend their whole lives wishing to die, just small segments in which they become vulnerable and we miss the opportunity to save them".
Whooter, I am new here and I thought I would sort of introduce myself by saying thank you for your comments concerning suicide. Especially the comments above.
Families do miss the signs, especially in today two parent working households, children are left alone and unattended to for far to long, on a day to day bases.
Parents do need to pay attention more today then ever, it seems that mental disorders and personality disorders are more prevalent today then ever, this could also have to do with the large baby boomers population and consequently their large population of children.
I agree people do not wish to die from the time they were born, at least anecdotally I don't think so. That is why I believe that having a spiritual inner guide during times when trust with humans has been compromised is so important.
This forum is very interesting, in so far as the people here seem to miss opportunities to really join together and send a message to the public. That we are diverse in our opinions yet we are not in our ambitions to see children are not abused.
I had some thoughts I wanted to share, I have been poking around for about a month, just trying to get a feel for the place here. Whether I would fit in or not. I think I can have some positive input here. We will see.
Fresh perspective is sorely needed here T-Rex, Especially if you are open minded, regardless if you are pro or anti program. Just be prepared that many here feel threatened by people who are open minded and by those who express opinions which do not align themselves with their own. If you can withstand the attacks I think you will find fornits interesting on many levels.
I hope that you stick around and I look forward to your input.
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I'm not going to lie, I've thought about suicide before. Especially when things get tough. Not as a way to hurt other people, that's why I brought up the idea of making it appear to be accidental. I wouldn't ever want anybody to know I killed myself intentionally, I would rather they think I got in an accident because I know the shame they would feel would be tremendous.
I wonder if it's just a part of human beings, when things get to difficult that it's a better option to just end it. This has always confused me, and that's why I started this topic. I know killing myself isn't a logical solution to any problems. But the idea hangs around when things get tough. I could do X, Y or Z. But those are all very difficult and will result in basically the same end, which is me, stuck being with me. Well suicide offers an alternative to X, Y, or Z. It's the ultimate alternative, and an alternative that leads to something nobody alive currently understands.
I feel an instinctual desire to stay alive right now. But that dissipates when things get difficult in life. It slowly recedes to a point where the desire to lessen the stress level can almost overtake that desire to stay alive. This is when I get scared because when it becomes a logical solution to problems in my own mind I know something is wrong with me. I've actually called suicide help lines and talked to some people before. These are the kind of people I admire, and have the utmost respect for. They just want to help people, at no benefit to themselves. They put themselves out there and offer a voice in the darkness to those seeking any sort of comfort, and sometimes that is all that is needed.
I think suicide fits under what we now call mental illness, although it does seem logical when you are thinking about it. I could go on with my shit life, try to pay bills I can't afford, try to meet people that won't hurt me and fuck me over, try to improve myself and my life. Or I could just stop on the bridge on my way to work, and jump off, or just drive off a cliff and that's it, game over. I know it's a sin to kill yourself and I feel suicide is the ultimate rejection of the gift of life that God gives every living creature, but I think God also understands our pain and feels it just as strongly or even more strongly than we do. I think God is above human retribution and emotion, and is the ultimate empathetic existence that we could possibly imagine, because in the end we are all made up of the same thing. When it comes to this subject I just have to admit, I really don't know. I don't understand it. I do occasionally suffer from it's grip though, and that can be scary and I just wish that it never existed in the first place, as an idea of option. But it does and so we have to deal with it. This topic makes me sad.
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Or I could just stop on the bridge on my way to work, and jump off, or just drive off a cliff and that's it, game over.
(http://http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/f/f3/DOIT_NOU.jpg)
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Hey, suck it?
Make sure you're buried with a king size candy bar, maybe it'll go with you to the afterlife :sue:
P.S. I will do something on your grave, but I don't know what yet.
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Hey, suck it?
Make sure you're buried with a king size candy bar, maybe it'll go with you to the afterlife :sue:
P.S. I will do something on your grave, but I don't know what yet.
Willy Nilly, your back. Welcome long time to read. Suck IT just got back also and already his contributions have been felt by many here. Willy we have had some rule changes since the last time you were here, so listen up. No more harassing posters with idiotic comments, OK. Other then that your good to go.
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Anne; Excellent post and thanks, You may wish to read The physiology of brainwashing and conversion, Wm. Sargent, about 1955, or Donald Mclean, out of Toronto, about mid-70's.
Sargent worked at putting men back together, Mclean worked at taking them apart. Mclean's work is harder to find, and much of it is classified.(Still!) Thanks again.J.O.M.
Thanks! I will definitely pick that up. Research into brainwashing I think was the thing that helped me the most. It helped me understand what happened to me.
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I love this, now we have Suicides, Child Molesters, Murderers of Parents, James Ray and who knows what else will be blamed on Programs/Treatment Centers.
I'm sure there is a study out there associating "turtle groping/fondling/molesting to gross negligence of bathroom privileges.
Oh fuck you!!! You have no idea why these people were contemplating suicide, but feel fully qualified to speak up to defend the precious programs. I was there for all the phone calls, visits and it was me that the hospital called when this person attempted to off themselves because my phone number was in their pocket for me to be notified if they succeeded. I knew goddamned well why they wanted to. You really are a complete dick with absolutely zero compassion.
Edited to add: It was one of the most traumatic things I've ever gone through. I love this person like a family member and was devastated when I got the phone call. You really are a soul-less prick....but that seems to come with the territory of being a staff member.
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I love this, now we have Suicides, Child Molesters, Murderers of Parents, James Ray and who knows what else will be blamed on Programs/Treatment Centers.
I'm sure there is a study out there associating "turtle groping/fondling/molesting to gross negligence of bathroom privileges.
Oh fuck you!!! You have no idea why these people were contemplating suicide, but feel fully qualified to speak up to defend the precious programs. I was there for all the phone calls, visits and it was me that the hospital called when this person attempted to off themselves because my phone number was in their pocket for me to be notified if they succeeded. I knew goddamned well why they wanted to. You really are a complete dick with absolutely zero compassion.
Edited to add: It was one of the most traumatic things I've ever gone through. I love this person like a family member and was devastated when I got the phone call. You really are a soul-less prick....but that seems to come with the territory of being a staff member.
Anne, I am compassionate to folks who commit suicide but for a much different reason then you. I care where there soul is going. Other then that we can sit here and argue back and forth where the emphasis should lie concerning family neglect, programs, children/adults and suicides. I actively work in the drug and alcohol world, Anne. I really do understand suicides, why folks believe there is no other option but lets not forget one thing here, Suicide is the ultimate form of Selfishness.
Edited to add,
I did not know you were talking about someone close to you, Anne. I would never respond to you in this way.
I am very sorry for your loss.
Please accept my apologies for being so careless and callous. I must have not seen or understood the post you wrote.
danny
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It should ultimately be an option, a right granted to every individual. Of course people should try and talk them out of it best they can, but ultimately a person should be allowed to remove themselves from this world, as none of us had any choice in the act of entering it. I agree it can be considered (in most cases) a selfish act; you leave people behind and they grieve for having lost you...However, it should be a person's choice.
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It makes me sad to think that someone could be that down. I have always believed that no matter how bleak things are there is always the possibility of improvement. I dont view it as deliberately selfish because i don't think someone in that much distress is making a rational choice and from their perspective I suppose they feel the world is a better place without them. I dont see how someone really determined can be stopped because even in a prison or hospital like environment where they are supervised nobody can be continually watched all the time. So in that sense it should be "allowed"
In regard to this industry I cant really make an educated comment on whether a person who has gone into the system is more likely to do it or not. Obviously suck it you feel it turned your life around and you say that you don't think the truly dire places don't exist anymore. I have read other people argue that they do and that they consider what they went through made their particular problems worse and even view it as abuse. The isolation of such places ie that contact with friends and loved ones is restricted on any level concerns me because if nothing else it makes a person who is struggling even more isolated. I can see how that aspect alone could have a negative effect on someone and this is before you even start the debate on whether the individual therapy used is help or abuse. Couple this with the young age of the kids involved and I think there is real reason for concern. I also have concerns about the fact that "escorts" are still used it seems routinely. I think that if someone was already a little fragile or not in the best mental place then the traumatic nature of such an experience could tip them closer to suicide or at least make them feel betrayed enough by loved ones to do something to harm themselves.
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That feeling of being completely betrayed by loved ones is especially powerful when the child is tricked and lied into the program. I thought we were going to Atlanta for a trip to 6 Flags theme Park. The next thing I knew I was in an intake room at Planet Straight. I saw many kids there who wished they were dead. The hopelessness and despair in their eyes. Actual suicide attempts were relatively rare cause we were under 24/7 watch, yes even in the bathroom. I was told by those who had been their longer that people had jumped headfirst off their blue chairs onto the floor in apparent suicide attempts but I never personally witnessed this during my 18 month stay. As far as the Straight survivors suicide rate I think it has been well established that it is obviously very high. I would like to see definitive studies done on it however.
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Oh so now the troll brigade wants to talk about suicide?
Let's talk about Layne Brown. Layne went to Tranquility Bay. He came back with serious problems (no shit!). He tried to talk to the Kays to make them admit what they did to him; they didn't respond. One guess as to what he ended up doing (shame it didn't involve the Kays, though).
David J. Chalmers (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=27990) sure had his addictions treated by ASR, didn't he?
Richard DeMaar (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30763), part of the Pile, managed to kill himself in the Laurel Ridge Treatment Center.
Seattle Children's Home. They KNEW Ashlie Bunch was suicidal. They had her on five-minute suicide watch. Eh, we can just sluff this off, right? (http://http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2010051029_apwasuicidelawsuit.html)
Ooh, here's one. Franklin McGill. He went to MBA, Hyde, AND Sober Living By the Sea. So this (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=27023) comes as really no surprise.
Carol Anne Brown (Hyde) also committed suicide (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=27330) about two months after Frank did. And there have been others, not to mention attempts...
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reformed12stepper wrote;
"i don't think someone in that much distress is making a rational choice and from their perspective I suppose they feel the world is a better place without them.".
Acutally it's the complete opposite. It's more like "screw the word, I'm better of without it".
That's the selfish part. That guilt alone keeps a lot of people alive.
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:seg:
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The only time in my life when I considered suicide as an option was when I was stuck on first phase being tortured in the program. I had tried to run away 3 times and had no other way out, no other choice, my own mind was being destroyed and I was having a nervous breakdown. I was fully aware of this but had no way to communicate this to the outside world.
My suicide attempt was thwarted by staff and then I was truly horrified. I realized I could not escape even through death. life after the program was at first calm and steady but ultimately became a downward spiral due to the psychological damage incurred through the treatment techniques imposed upon our minds.
Fast forward to the last decade. Suicide attempts have been reported by kids who were in Pathway Family Center. And at least 6 suicides of "Pathlings" have been reported to me by families who were involved with the program in the last 5-10 years. In many cases the kids themselves pointed to the damage done to them by the program as THE contributing factor to their despair before they committed suicide.
This statement offers insight into these tragedies:
http://www.pfctruth.com/testimonial1.htm (http://www.pfctruth.com/testimonial1.htm)
I do not have statistical data about suicide rates among other programs.
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The only time in my life when I considered suicide as an option was when I was stuck on first phase being tortured in the program. I had tried to run away 3 times and had no other way out, no other choice, my own mind was being destroyed and I was having a nervous breakdown. I was fully aware of this but had no way to communicate this to the outside world.
My suicide attempt was thwarted by staff and then I was truly horrified. I realized I could not escape even through death. life after the program was at first calm and steady but ultimately became a downward spiral due to the psychological damage incurred through the treatment techniques imposed upon our minds.
Fast forward to the last decade. Suicide attempts have been reported by kids who were in Pathway Family Center. And at least 6 suicides of "Pathlings" have been reported to me by families who were involved with the program in the last 5-10 years. In many cases the kids themselves pointed to the damage done to them by the program as THE contributing factor to their despair before they committed suicide.
This statement offers insight into these tragedies:
http://www.pfctruth.com/testimonial1.htm (http://www.pfctruth.com/testimonial1.htm)
I do not have statistical data about suicide rates among other programs.
Nothing that went on in your life prior to going to this T/C had anything to do with your downward spiral. Where were your family and friends who loved you, were drugs a part of your life prior and after the T/C. Was your behavior destructive prior and after the T/C.
I mean so many things contribute to suicide.
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WD tony im sorry treatment was so terrible for you. I read the link and googled that girl's name. The poor thing hung herself. It is very sad. I can see how it can be argued that there is no way of knowing for sure why someone kills themselves without being a mind reader but i can also see how if you feel like shit about yourself, a place that continually focuses on how much of a failure you are is not going to help even when it is not physically abusive.
Suck it I dont know if being suicidal is part of the human condition. It never has been for me but maybe I am too much of a coward to do it. For me Its like that dorothy parker poem,
guns arent lawful
nooses give
gas smells awful
you might as well live :birthday: :cheers:
I remember when i went into drug rehab as an adult (it was effective, voluntary and humane) feeling like i was at a pretty low point. The cliche rock bottom I suppose and feeling like AA had not really done it and maybe i was a hopeless case, but then even with that i figured there was too much id miss out on being dead. Without starting a religious debate I think it might be harder to go through with if you are agnostic or athiest because you dont feel guaranteed of some kind of afterlife or reincarnation so it is like this is it. There were too many fun things like food and sex for me to contemplate never having or doing again. I met a woman while I was there who unlike me was court ordered to go due to a traffic charge. She had tried twice in the past but it turned out she had bipolar disorder. She said it was a relief to figure out why she felt like that.
I read a thread on this board about a book called what it takes to pull me through and ordered it on Amazon. One of the boys who graduated killed himself at 20. His poor father lost it after that. I could see how some of the work they did with those kids would help, like say the exercise where the black kid's mother told the adopted girl from her own perspective that it was done out of a desire to give her a better life, but there were also a lot of things that seemed kind of dangerous and that could really send someone over he edge. Like the costa rica trip also seemed like for some kids who are really fit and adventurous a great opportunity. But some kids did not seem like they could cope at all. What it highlighted was that one size does not fit all but they do not discriminate between who will do well and who wont. Everyone is just made go regardless of the mental health risks.
I was appauled that when one girl actually made a suicide attempt while in costa rica they mocked her for it and then publically humiliated her for being sexually active. There was no reason in the world why her teacher could not have addressed breaking that rule as an issue privately. SHe ended up making a really serious attempt on her life. The british kid who seemed really smart and sensitive also lost it as soon as they let him out and sent him home. I wondered if he was not deliberately trying to OD.
I also wondered how the girl from texas did because they were extremely harsh on her. Surely it is not considered professional to have one of the other girls supervise her in the toilet? i get that with anorexics some hospitals do that when things are severe, but it is a nurse or some other professional doing it, never a fellow patient. The role play where she had to relive boys calling her a whore also seemed pretty devastating.
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Reformed 12 stepper:
These private, for profit, peer pressure/synanon based programs do indeed push kids over the edge. This is the intent. Then, supposedly, they build them back - or get them "fully baked" as WWASP would say. But once you have devastated a persons very identity and called into question all they have believed and trusted, you can never put them back together without there being a few cracks - and this is assuming they survive the shattering. As you've seen, some do not. PTSD is extremely common. This is often added to the already present burden of pre-existing mental health or emotional disorders that have been grossly mismanaged by these programs. Its no wonder suicide is such a looming issue.
You mention all one would miss out on thats fun - but keep in mind for a truly depressed person nothing is fun. This is the problem.
I'd advise those feeling this way to remember they have enjoyed life and they can again - depression is not a permanent state; death and what ever comes after it, is. By all means see a doctor - go to the hospital and tell them what your considering. If your uninsured tell them you need to see a social worker to apply for medicaid or assistance from what ever the local community offers. There are often many resources available people are unaware of. You might even qualify for SSI or disability if you get a proper diagnosis, and there are social workers who can help you apply. There are lawyers who will help for a cut of the first check which is always a whopper as it goes back to when you applied and the application process takes a long time.
As anger is commonly associated with depression consider legal and productive avenues to express it - Art, music and writing for example, can be excellent ways to work through this.
I want to correct someone (forget who and don't want to go searching) that spoke of Layne Brown. Layne was not a suicide. His heart gave out.
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Reformed 12 stepper:
These private, for profit, peer pressure/synanon based programs do indeed push kids over the edge. This is the intent. Then, supposedly, they build them back - or get them "fully baked" as WWASP would say. But once you have devastated a persons very identity and called into question all they have believed and trusted, you can never put them back together without there being a few cracks - and this is assuming they survive the shattering. As you've seen, some do not. PTSD is extremely common. This is often added to the already present burden of pre-existing mental health or emotional disorders that have been grossly mismanaged by these programs. Its no wonder suicide is such a looming issue.
You mention all one would miss out on thats fun - but keep in mind for a truly depressed person nothing is fun. This is the problem.
I'd advise those feeling this way to remember they have enjoyed life and they can again - depression is not a permanent state; death and what ever comes after it, is. By all means see a doctor - go to the hospital and tell them what your considering. If your uninsured tell them you need to see a social worker to apply for medicaid or assistance from what ever the local community offers. There are often many resources available people are unaware of. You might even qualify for SSI or disability if you get a proper diagnosis, and there are social workers who can help you apply. There are lawyers who will help for a cut of the first check which is always a whopper as it goes back to when you applied and the application process takes a long time.
As anger is commonly associated with depression consider legal and productive avenues to express it - Art, music and writing for example, can be excellent ways to work through this.
I want to correct someone (forget who and don't want to go searching) that spoke of Layne Brown. Layne was not a suicide. His heart gave out.
:notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:
Bears repeating so much!!!
Sorry, I have to....I love this gif!.....
(http://http://a4.vox.com/6a00c225257507604a00fae8c21e94000b-500pi)
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Just for the hell of it! I know that one among our number is an actuary Anyone got Mortality stats? I bet they're pretty high, for a population such as ours.
J.O.M.
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Anyone else see this as a virtually perfect extortion racket. i do. Run the numbers.
J.O.M.
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Reformed 12 stepper:
These private, for profit, peer pressure/synanon based programs do indeed push kids over the edge. This is the intent. Then, supposedly, they build them back - or get them "fully baked" as WWASP would say. But once you have devastated a persons very identity and called into question all they have believed and trusted, you can never put them back together without there being a few cracks - and this is assuming they survive the shattering. As you've seen, some do not. PTSD is extremely common. This is often added to the already present burden of pre-existing mental health or emotional disorders that have been grossly mismanaged by these programs. Its no wonder suicide is such a looming issue.
You mention all one would miss out on thats fun - but keep in mind for a truly depressed person nothing is fun. This is the problem.
I'd advise those feeling this way to remember they have enjoyed life and they can again - depression is not a permanent state; death and what ever comes after it, is. By all means see a doctor - go to the hospital and tell them what your considering. If your uninsured tell them you need to see a social worker to apply for medicaid or assistance from what ever the local community offers. There are often many resources available people are unaware of. You might even qualify for SSI or disability if you get a proper diagnosis, and there are social workers who can help you apply. There are lawyers who will help for a cut of the first check which is always a whopper as it goes back to when you applied and the application process takes a long time.
As anger is commonly associated with depression consider legal and productive avenues to express it - Art, music and writing for example, can be excellent ways to work through this.
I want to correct someone (forget who and don't want to go searching) that spoke of Layne Brown. Layne was not a suicide. His heart gave out.
As I read your post and the bit about kids being "baked" it made me feel like these kids are seen almost as products. I dont want to be critical of the parents who send them to such places because I am sure they are hoping for a good outcome for the kid and that in some cases the kid is in over their head. I know i gave my family its fair share of drama as a kid. But at the same time it seems like sometimes everybody including the parents forgets that these kids are people with feelings. You cant rebuild or rewire a person or change who they are.
I can understand being depressed enough that nothing seems fun anymore and i am sure that everybody has been there. I suppose for me hope springs eternal. It is cliched but just as when you are on top the only place you can go is down, the converse is also true. As the song goes things can only get better. I really hope that anyone who has been through this system and had a negative experience with it can find some way out of the woods. It seems like ending it is letting the bastards win.
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I have been reading the posts here concerning friends that committed suicide, attempted suicide and how programs push people to suicide. I have one problem here I don't see anyone here that is qualified to give advice or state clinically that this particular person committed suicide as a direct result from punitive damages from the specific program.
Now I know you can cite studies and surveys ect..but what you have not done is taken the specific person you are referencing and had a study done on them. I think we need to be careful throwing this "suicide" word around as if any unprofessional can make a case.
I am not trying to cause a unnecessary argument here, I would just like to get more clarity from the individuals making these claims to elaborate more if they choose to. Better yet if we have a professional in the house who would like to elaborate.
I am of the opinion these untimely deaths are a mixture of ingredients, the "program" being a 1/4 portion of the ingredients, family, mental and physical health being the others in this bowl, of course this is my opinion.
I said above that I am not looking for a fight or argument, I also was in a program and several people committed suicide years after they were there, was this because of there involvement with the program we were at, I can not professionally say. I do know 2 of the people I am referencing suffered from depression and the other was bi-polar, though we did not call it that then.
There families were not very active in there treatment plan, calling them, visiting them or sending them gift packages. I could never understand how some parents could send there children away and stop all communication.
If your thinking the program was responsible for this you are wrong they were not, 95% of the parents came for visits, called the kids, sent letters and gift packages ect....I asked my parents to send this one friend of mine a gift package so he would get one.
I will comment more later.
I am once again very sorry for your friends deaths, suicide is a very sad death to accept, it seems at times so unnecessary.Then other times very plausible.
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Reformed 12 stepper:
These private, for profit, peer pressure/synanon based programs do indeed push kids over the edge. This is the intent. Then, supposedly, they build them back - or get them "fully baked" as WWASP would say. But once you have devastated a persons very identity and called into question all they have believed and trusted, you can never put them back together without there being a few cracks - and this is assuming they survive the shattering. As you've seen, some do not. PTSD is extremely common. This is often added to the already present burden of pre-existing mental health or emotional disorders that have been grossly mismanaged by these programs. Its no wonder suicide is such a looming issue.
You mention all one would miss out on thats fun - but keep in mind for a truly depressed person nothing is fun. This is the problem.
I'd advise those feeling this way to remember they have enjoyed life and they can again - depression is not a permanent state; death and what ever comes after it, is. By all means see a doctor - go to the hospital and tell them what your considering. If your uninsured tell them you need to see a social worker to apply for medicaid or assistance from what ever the local community offers. There are often many resources available people are unaware of. You might even qualify for SSI or disability if you get a proper diagnosis, and there are social workers who can help you apply. There are lawyers who will help for a cut of the first check which is always a whopper as it goes back to when you applied and the application process takes a long time.
As anger is commonly associated with depression consider legal and productive avenues to express it - Art, music and writing for example, can be excellent ways to work through this.
I want to correct someone (forget who and don't want to go searching) that spoke of Layne Brown. Layne was not a suicide. His heart gave out.
I would very much like to see the both of you fast forward to 2010 and stop referencing everything from 30-40 years ago. You two are also giving away your ages. :)
I would like to agree with you that severe depression was caused by these programs but that is not a direct accurate clinical statement. I would say rage, hostility, fear and not knowing how to express these emotions, can get someone into some very destructive habits, which then could lead indirectly to depression. Most folks I have run into that have "PTSD" it is really rageand they do not know now to get rid of it. Just my two cents.
Good reading......
John Herald Lee
Excerpt from http://thenangersolutionbyjohnlee.blogspot.com/ (http://thenangersolutionbyjohnlee.blogspot.com/)
Being Judge and Jury As Soft Rage--Lesson 12
When someone is angry but doesn’t know how to express it appropriately
they very often fall back on a tactic that was probably used on them
...since childhood and they have become masters of in adulthood—judging.
This form of raging requires that the individual have an imaginary robe
and a gavel handy at all times.See More
http://thenangersolutionbyjohnlee.blogspot.com/ (http://thenangersolutionbyjohnlee.blogspot.com/)
thenangersolutionbyjohnlee.blogspot.com
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stop referencing everything from 30-40 years ago. You two are also giving away your ages. :)
Really? Besides apparent age, What else do you think you know? I can tip you off that Anne and I have almost zero in common, including our age. My personal experience was very different from Anne's; was more like 8 years ago and is absolutely and with out question an on-going issue.
Reformed: The kids are very clearly viewed as a commodity. You can reference Amberly Knight's statemewnt to PANI to get a clear idea of the extent of this fact.
To the Minister of Child Welfare:
I worked as the Director at the Academy at Dundee Ranch from March to August of 2002. During this time, Mr. Joseph Atkin was the Financial Director. Mr. Kenneth Wilson was the Student Director. I replaced Mr. Ron DelAguila (who replaced Mr. Randall Hinton). After I left in August of 2002, Mr. Joseph Atkin replaced me. Mr. Atkin left in February of this year, and has been replaced by Mr. Francisco Bustos.
I feel that Dundee Ranch Academy should not be allowed to operate because it is poorly managed, takes financial advantage of parents in crisis, and puts teens in physical and emotional risk.
Dundee Ranch Academy is poorly managed, and this is why so many directors have left in the short 18 months that the school has been open. Company policies and procedures changed daily on the whims of Mr. Narvin Lichfield, the owner. While I was there, Mr. Lichfield and his wife (girlfriend at the time) often made it impossible for my staff and myself to do our jobs. For example, Mr. Lichfield and his wife often changed the rules of the program without informing the staff. They would give kids special permission to break rules, until it got to the point where the staff gave up trying to control the students. Mr. Lichfield and his wife often demanded that structural changes be made to buildings or that new buildings be built without obtaining the necessary building permits. Orotina authorities visited several times and threatened to close the place if construction was occurring when they returned. However, because the construction workers were more afraid of Mr. Lichfield and his fits of rage than they were of the local authorities, they would go right back to work as soon as the authorities were out of site.
The purpose of Dundee Ranch is not to help teens in crisis or their families. It is to make millions of dollars for the owner. Although the profit margins are approximately 50% -75%, Mr. Lichfield is unsatisfied. He continues to try to squeeze out every penny he can. This is achieved by hiring unqualified, untrained staff, providing the bare minimum of food and living essentials, and by adding huge margins to additional services. For example, if a student needs a ride to San Jose to visit the doctor, Dundee charges the parents $250 when it costs them $50. If a student sees the Doctor, parents are charged $50; Dundee pays $15. If a student needs medicine, parents are charged $30; Dundee typically pays $2 - $3. Parents pay $95 per month for “incidentals” like toothpaste and deodorant. These incidentals, while I was there, cost Dundee $15 per month.
While I was in the process of resigning from Dundee Ranch last August, an American male staff member assaulted and raped a female staff member at a location of about 100 meters from where all the students are housed. I was not on the premises at the time, but was involved in reporting the incident to the Costa Rican authorities and staying with the employee’s mother who flew in from the United States. The parents of students who were in the program were not informed of the incident. Mr. Atkin, one of Dundee’s many Directors, dismissed the incident to a Tico Times reporter as a “non-issue.” One of the reasons that the incident was not made public was because the employee who committed the crime was a recent “graduate” of an affiliated program. The program claims a 92% “success” rate, and a drunken assault of a graduate would not be seen as a success.
This leads to another issue—untrained, unqualified staff. None of the staff members are trained to work with at-risk youth. The only reason we had hired Mr. Andy Lamb, a young 19-year-old with a history of abusive behavior, is because he knew the program, and was willing to work for the very low wage offered by Mr. Lichfield. According to Mr. Lichfield, “there was not enough money in the budget” to hire trained, qualified staff. Here are some other highlights:
The owner, Mr. Lichfield, has been involved with these types of programs for at least 15 years, but as the Marketing person, not as a clinical person.
The current director, Mr. Francisco Bustos, (as Mr. Atkin recently got fed up with the chaos and also left Dundee Ranch) has no experience. If you look at their website, it states that he has experience owning and operating 5 pizza restaurants. The reason he was hired is because he was a longtime friend of the owner’s wife, Ms. Flori Alvaredo.
The “Family Fathers”, the staff who spend all day with the students, give corrections and punishment to the students, and who are supposed to teach and kindly correct the students, are minimum wage workers who do not speak English.
The “Family Representatives”, the staff that hold daily counseling sessions (called “Reflections”) with the students have no training or background in this area. They are also the only point of contact between the program and the students and often find themselves in a family counseling role, for which they are not qualified.
They have only one trained psychologist on staff, who visits once a week, but parents must pay an additional $75/hour for his services.
I am the first to admit that I was not even qualified to be there. I hold a degree in Secondary Education, but took only one class in working with at-risk youth.
In addition to this, when I was there, most of the staff were disgruntled and frustrated with the way they were treated. Often their paychecks did not arrive on time or with the right amount of money. They often took their frustration at the administration out on the students. They treated students poorly (yelling at them, giving them extra “consequences”.) Staff turn-over is very high. This creates additional instability with the students. During the year 2002, there were four different Directors. “Family Representatives” and teachers came and left monthly. This created additional emotional instability in the students who were already torn from their parents and allowed extremely limited time to talk with the other students in the program. The only chance they often had to talk was with staff, and those staff continued to leave the program.
As an employee, the only training I received was on how to manipulate parents. I was told many times that “there is no reason for a student to return home before ‘graduating’ the program”. Once they are in, they are there to stay. This process takes 12 to 36 months. There were many students who had psychological, medical, or special education needs that we could not meet. When I suggested that they be sent to another place where they could receive the help they needed, I was told to “keep my mouth shut and make sure that their parents kept them there.” I was threatened with my job. If there were students who would be better off going home or entering another program, I was not allowed to suggest this to the parent. Ironically, if the parents had concerns about what was going on, we were told to tell the parents that their children were “just manipulating them.”
Students were not allowed to communicate freely with their parents, or anyone else. They were allowed to write a weekly email and letter, but the staff was instructed to read the email and letter and take out anything they did not like, or write comments to the parents. The students were not allowed to express their true feelings. Students were not allowed to talk with their parents until they were “Level 3”, which could take anywhere from 4 to 24 months. At that point, they were allowed a 15 minute phone call once a month. Staff was instructed to hang the phone up and terminate their conversation if the student said anything negative about the program.
Students were not allowed to talk without permission. Typically, they would be able to speak with their friends for about 15 to 30 minutes a day. They were isolated from the outside world. They did not have a chance to view a newspaper or the internet. Emotionally, this was very difficult for the students, as many of them processed their emotions by talking about them.
When I first arrived, “restraints” were common. This was when a staff member would twist a student’s arm around their back and throw them to the ground or against a wall. I know of at least one case where an arm was dislocated. I insisted that this stop, and I am fairly certain that it did not happen while I was there. However, I have heard reports that this was started again after I left. Further investigation should be done.
Another punishment was writing “essays” of 3000 to 150,000 words. Students were required to sit in a dark room without proper back support, and write these essays until they finished the required number of words. Often, staff members, for no apparent reason, would rip up the essays and make the students start over. Students were required to write for 8 hours a day until their words were completed.
The worst punishment was “OP” or “Observational Punishment.” In this, students were required to stand, kneel, sit, or lay on a cement floor without moving for 30 minutes at a time. They had to do this for 8 hours a day, until they had “served their time”. When some of the kids accepted this, the staff made them run 100s of laps around the pool; just to make it miserable enough that the kids would want to comply.
Students had no voice. If they had a complaint, they were supposed to write a “grievance” on a piece of paper. Often, these were lost or confiscated by staff who did not want to look bad.
I stayed at Dundee because I wanted to make things run well, because I believe that when administered well, the program can be effective for some teens. However, many of the teens that were there at the time (and probably still there) would be much better served somewhere else. This was not an option because it would take money out of Mr. Lichfield’s pocket. I also realized that my efforts would never be successful. I could not hire and keep trained staff. I could not spend money on things the kids needed. Several times we ran out of toilet paper and the kids had to use notebook paper. I could not get Mr. Lichfield to begin the dorms that were so desperately needed, and that he promised to parents “were in the works”. Everything was focused on the profits Mr. Lichfield could make, not on the health or welfare of the students. Some additional examples of this are:
The city water was disconnected and students were given well water to drink, because the city water was “too expensive”. Shortly thereafter, approximately 40 students got diarrhea and eventually drinking water was filtered. This may have been a coincidence. But even if the water did not have any problems, they should have tested it before they began giving it to students.
The kids are crowded in their rooms. There are as many as 15 kids in what used to be a single hotel room. They were required to sleep from 8:00 pm to 6:00 am to save on staff costs. (We only needed 2 staff when the boys were in their beds, versus 6-8 staff when they were awake.) Mr. Lichfield did not want to spend the money to hire additional staff.
For the first 10 months that the school was open, there were no trained staff administering medicine. After several students were given the wrong medicine, or were not given their medication, I insisted on hiring two full-time nurses. Before that, the minimum wage staff members who could not speak English were required to pass out medicine.
I did not have the resources or support necessary to provide what I felt was a humane and safe environment for these teens. I was also concerned about the “High Impact” extension that was a copy of a program that was shut down in Mexico because of the death of students. For these reasons, I decided to resign in early August.
It would be my pleasure to speak to someone about these issues. I can be reached at [deleated], or by phone at [deleated] during the day, or at [deleated] during the evening.
Kind regards,
Amberly Knight
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T-Rex wrote:
stop referencing everything from 30-40 years ago. You two are also giving away your ages. :)
Buzzkill wrote:
Really? Besides apparent age, What else do you think you know? I can tip you off that Anne and I have almost zero in common, including our age. My personal experience was very different from Anne's; was more like 8 years ago and is absolutely and with out question an on-going issue.
I put a smiley face there to keep the comments in that sentence in jest. Sorry you seemed to find it offensive, not meant that way. I would have thought it was a "given" that I do not know anything about Anne or yourself.
Why don't you try commenting on the heart of my post and read John Lee's excerpts on anger.
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Rex - It IS indeed a given that you don't know what your talking about :)
Your smiley face was meant to imply this? So, you didn't really mean to say 30 or 40 years ago? Or that you could guess our age? That was a joke of some sort? Please don't take My smile face that way. ;)
Respond to the heart of your post - OK:
California father Chris Goodwin, who led the charge to close High Impact in Mexico, told The Tico Times this week that his son had been transferred to the Mexican facility from a WWASP program in 2001. At High Impact, Goodwin claims, his son was locked in a dog cage for a week at a time, hog-tied for three days, had his thumb twisted back and broken by a staff member, had his teeth knocked through his lips by a staffer who smashed his face in the ground repeatedly, and was forced to walk around the compound's perimeter track in the sun wearing flannel underwear and a sweatsuit.
Suppose such treatment, either experienced or commonly witnessed while in a state of powerlessness, constant hunger, sleeplessness, unrelenting fear and uncertainty might result in rage, and /or PTSD? Eventually even suicide?
Do keep in mind that people who have experienced this brand of "therapy" and "help" may find it impossible to seek "help" from any therapeutic source ever again.
More Questions about 'Tough-Love' Program
By Tim Rogers
Tico Times Staff
Concerns are growing that there may be more than meets the eye at the U.S.-run behavior modification program Dundee Ranch Academy, as two new Web sites appeared this week advertising the institution as a juvenile military boot camp.
Despite academy owner Narvin Lichfield's repeated insistence that his program is not a boot camp for troubled teens, the discovery of Web sites "1-To-1 Juvenile Boot Camps" (1-to-1-juvenile-boot-camps.com) and "Basic Training Boot Camp Military School" (basic-training-boot-camp-military-school.com) fueled critics' arguments that Dundee Ranch is not what it is advertising itself to be.
Although neither Internet page mentions Dundee Ranch, The Tico Times this week learned that the boot camps are located at the academy's facilities on the remote campus of a former hotel in the Pacific town of Orotina.
'HIGH-Impact' track under construction: idea's being reworked.
Tico Times /JulioLaínez
Lichfield, whose brother Bob runs Dundee's Utah-based umbrella organization WorldWide Association of Specialty Programs (WWASP), said he was unaware the boot camp Web sites had been published on the Internet.
"That is not what we are offering; I will have to tell them to take those down," he told The Tico Times during a phone interview from his other WWASP program in South Carolina.
Lichfield said the sites were erroneously published by Parent Resources, a Utah-based marketing firm that handles enrollment and admissions for the WWASP's nine programs in the U.S. and abroad. He explained that the idea of running a separate military boot camp at Dundee's recently constructed "High Impact" walled compound was an idea he toyed with a year ago, but eventually decided against, due to Costa Rica's long history of demilitarization.
Lichfield claims he is reworking the concept of the "High Impact" - scheduled to be operational next month - and said he must have forgotten to tell Parent Resources about the change of plans. He blamed the Web sites on "an honest lack of communication."
Dundee Ranch is a controversial non-therapeutic behavior modification institution for troubled teens. Currently home to 183 boys and girls ages 11-17, most from the U.S., the program and its WWASP affiliates in the U.S. and Jamaica have come under fire over the years by critics who claim the program's "tough love" tactics - including the use of physical restraint and sentencing kids to solitary confinement - are abusive (TT, Oct. 25, 2002; Jan. 17).
Former Dundee Ranch director Amberly Knight - one of five directors who have worked at the Costa Rica program in its 18 months of existence - this week added her voice to the chorus of concern in a five-page letter to Costa Rican Child Welfare (PANI) Minister Rosalia Gil.
"I feel that Dundee Ranch Academy should not be allowed to operate because it is poorly managed, takes financial advantage of parents in crisis, and puts teens in physical and emotional risk," she wrote.
Gil told The Tico Times this week that her organization is investigating Dundee, and that last week she sent three child welfare workers to the academy to talk with kids and staff. She declined to comment on details of the PANI report, which was discussed at length with the U.S. Embassy on Tuesday. The Embassy also declined comment.
Lichfield said last week's visit from the PANI went well, and that he has a meeting scheduled with Gil and the U.S. Embassy in the coming weeks.
He dismissed Knight as an "immature" and disgruntled former employee.
"If she felt like there was abuse at the camp, why didn't she talk about it when she was director?" he asked.
Lichfield added that Knight, by talking to the press and the PANI, has violated trade-secret and confidentiality agreements, and will be sued in Costa Rica as a result.
A second former Dundee Ranch employee contacted by The Tico Times this week said he could vouch for everything Knight had said in her letter.
Speaking on condition that his name not be used, the former employee [Randall Hinton] said: "If you put a spy camera in Dundee for a day, you would find abuse and an ill-trained staff."
"I know the kids are being mistreated there," he added. "What is being promised to the parents is not happening; the kids are not being educated, and they are not being helped emotionally in any way. The kids only learn how to lie to get out of the program."
Lichfield, however, claims it is the former employees who are lying, because they have "an axe to grind."
In addition, he added, the only service that Dundee Ranch promises to perform is "supervision."
"Our contract says we don't guarantee anything," he said.
Lichfield said he has been threatened with a lawsuit from only one Dundee parent, and settled out of court for $7,000. In the 24-year history of WWASP, he said, seven suits have been brought against the program, and all have been thrown out of court because "they had no merit." Lichfield estimates that WWASP has settled some 50 other cases out of court over the years.
No legal action has ever been brought against Dundee Ranch in Costa Rica.
Meanwhile, opponents of the program are voicing increased concern about the academy's "High Impact basic training facility."
During a Tico Times visit to Dundee last October, Lichfield explained that habitually disobedient youths from the academy or any of WWASP's eight other programs could be sentenced to do time at High Impact, where they must walk 100 miles around a perimeter track to win their freedom (TT, Oct. 25). This week, Lichfield described the walled compound as a "low-impact" facility meant to take kids out of their comfort zone to make them reflect on their behavior. Youths sentenced there will have the option of walking for two hours a day to win points toward graduating in a month, he said.
Critics of WWASP worry that the compound Lichfield is putting the finishing touches on is really a replica of the High Impact facility in Mexico, which was closed by Mexican authorities in 2001 for rights abuses. WWASP has also closed or been forced to close similar programs in Utah and the Czech Republic.
California father Chris Goodwin, who led the charge to close High Impact in Mexico, told The Tico Times this week that his son had been transferred to the Mexican facility from a WWASP program in 2001. At High Impact, Goodwin claims, his son was locked in a dog cage for a week at a time, hog-tied for three days, had his thumb twisted back and broken by a staff member, had his teeth knocked through his lips by a staffer who smashed his face in the ground repeatedly, and was forced to walk around the compound's perimeter track in the sun wearing flannel underwear and a sweatsuit.
Lichfield said Dundee's High Impact will be more of an "evaluation facility," and will be nothing like the operation closed in Mexico.
"We are trying to improve on the positive elements of the program, and eliminate the negative ones," he said.
Not everyone is convinced that the new facility will be more user-friendly.
"High Impact is going to be bad; it is set up identical to the one that was in Mexico," charged the former staffer who wished to remain nameless. [Randall Hinton] "That is the only model Lichfield knows."
Charges that Dundee Ranch is more sinister than its marketing would suggest have worried some parents, too.
Louisiana mother Carey Bock, with the help of hired muscle from the U.S., went so far as to bust her twin boys out of Dundee last October (TT, Oct. 25). Virginia divorcee Su Flowers, who two weeks ago lost joint custody of her children, has tried twice in the last month to get her daughter out of Dundee. The eccentric Flowers is currently living in the Pacific beach town of Manuel Antonio, trying to organize rock concerts to raise awareness about the academy.
but other parents defend Dundee passionately. Responding to a Jan. 17 Tico Times article, several dozen parents wrote letters defending the program, at the request of then-director Joe Atkin.
Lichfield, meanwhile, maintains that Dundee Ranch Academy is not doing anything that is not already being done in similar teen programs in all 50 States in the U.S.
"We are viewed as sinners or saints, depending on what side of the argument you are on," he said.
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Links please... Also date of article(s) would be helpful... Thanks, BuzzKill!
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Links please... Also date of article(s) would be helpful... Thanks, BuzzKill!
I doubt there are any working links. You can check here: http://http://www.ticotimes.net/
I don't have dates saved unless they were in the by-lines.
And in case it's wondered How they can get away with such things:
"Lichfield, who said he donated $10,000 to campaign of President Abel Pacheco, claims he has appealed to the President for help, but added Pacheco probably "doesn’t want to touch us with a 10-foot poll."
November 28, 2003
Dundee Case Still Worries U.S. Parents
By Tim Rogers
Tico Times Staff
SIX months after the closure of Dundee Ranch Academy, tough-love program owner Narvin Lichfield of Utah once again is a free man.
The restrictions on his freedom, imposed by a Costa Rican judge May 23 following Lichfield’s brief arrest on allegations of children’s rights abuse, expired last Sunday and prosecutor Marielos Alfaro said she doesn’t see a need to request a six-month extension of his prohibition on leaving the country.
Lichfield, who is currently enrolled in Spanish classes as he plans to reopen his academy under a different name and a gentler, therapeutic model, insists he is not going to leave the country to avoid the on-going investigation.
"I am still confused what I was arrested for in the first place," Lichfield said with a laugh, adding that the truth soon will absolve him of abuse charges.
"The truth is the most important thing. Was it true that kids were abused? I admit, there were a lot of things that happened [at Dundee] that I didn’t know about, but I don’t think there really was [abuse]," Lichfield told The Tico Times this week.
MEANWHILE, a growing number of parents of former academy students in the United States are expressing concern that the investigation here into what happened at Dundee has been shelved, and that charges will not be pressed against Lichfield.
Distanced by a couple thousand miles, an unfamiliar judicial system and a language barrier, some of the U.S. parents say they are feeling powerless.
For several months, a group of 12 former Dundee students has been prepared to return to Costa Rica to testify to allegations of physical and emotional mistreatment suffered at the hands of former Dundee staff.
But no court date has been set by the prosecutor or the judge, and the parents are hesitant to fly their children down unannounced.
"I am concerned that when parents have tried to call the prosecutor’s office, they are told ‘No English!’ and hung up on," said Karen Burnett, mother of a former Dundee student.
Prosecutor Alfaro admits that no one in her office speaks English, but said that former students can come down to Costa Rica anytime to give their testimony. They will be received with "no problem," she said.
LOCATED on the remote grounds of a former eco-hotel about 15 kilometers from the Pacific-slope community of Orotina, Dundee Ranch Academy was an affiliate of the Utah-based WorldWide Association of Specialty Programs (WWASP). The non-therapeutic behavior-modification facility, home to 200 troubled teenagers mostly from the United States, was operated under the philosophy of "identify your incorrect behavior, and stop doing it," according to Lichfield.
But some of the methods Dundee staff members used to help wayward teens identify their "incorrect behavior" -- including solitary confinement, physical restraint and allegations of drug-induced sedation -- were blasted by critics as abusive (TT, Oct. 25, 2002; Jan. 17, March 14).
Last May, the mother of one Dundee student filed a complaint with the Atenas Prosecutor’s Office, where Prosecutor Fernando Vargas was substituting for the regular prosecutor who was on vacation. Vargas immediately asked Judge Gabriela Saborío to authorize a government intervention of Dundee.
The interventions, which occurred on May 20 and 22, spiraled out of control when Vargas tried to explain to the children their rights under Costa Rican law. Several dozen youth escaped from the campus, while others rioted and vandalized the facility.
Lichfield was detained for 24 hours before being released on conditional freedoms. He closed the academy May 24 and the students were whisked back to their parents in the United States or to other WWASP programs in the United States and Jamaica (TT, May 23, May 30).
THE Ombudsman’s Office blasted the Child Welfare Agency’s handling of the situation as "permissive and tolerant" of alleged abuse, and recommended that child welfare authorities develop new protocol for situations where children are at high risk (TT, Sept. 12).
Prosecutor Fernando Vargas, who was removed from Dundee case a week after the May raids when prosecutor Marielos Alfaro returned from vacation, also is raising a critical voice against Costa Rica’s handling of the case.
In July, he filed a complaint with the Internal Judicial Inspector’s Office against Judge Saborío, who he claims interfered with his ability to gather necessary evidence during the interventions, and acted inappropriately in a situation where children were asking for help.
Saborío denies any wrongdoing, but said she could not comment further because she is the subject of an ongoing internal investigation.
VARGAS also is critical of the current prosecutor’s handling of the case, which he claims is "passive" and not being conducted with the importance that it deserves. He claims he did more to advance the investigation in the week following the raid, than anything that has been done in the last six months.
Alfaro told The Tico Times that the investigation is still open, and denied it is not being given its due importance. She said her office is still waiting for confiscated documents to be translated into Spanish, as well as other proof from the Judicial Investigative Police (OIJ).
Alfaro explained that she is the only prosecutor in Atenas and is handling about 500 ongoing cases, many older than the Dundee case. She stressed that all cases are given equal importance, and that the Dundee matter will be resolved in due time.
Vargas argues the case would be moved along faster if there was more public and media pressure. He blames the relatively mild public reaction to the Dundee situation on a general perception that the issue is a "gringo problem."
If the students had been Costa Ricans, the public’s reaction and the prosecution’s handling of case would be much different, Vargas charged.
"There is a perception that these problems were brought here; that they are not ours," Vargas said. "And there is resentment: why do we have to deal with it when the U.S. knew about [WWASP] for years?"
WWASP, which currently has 10-affiliated programs in the United States and abroad, has operated in the U.S. for more than a decade. Dundee was the fourth WWASP program to close after being investigated for rights violations.
Earlier this month, U.S. congressman George Miller wrote to U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft and requested a federal probe of WWASP (TT, Nov. 7). Miller’s office has not yet received a reply, according to a congressional aid.
ALFARO vigorously denied the nationality of the alleged victims has anything to do with the prosecution’s handling of the case.
"Whether they are gringos, Nicas or whoever, the law applies to all cases and each is given equal importance," she said.
Vargas claims the Dundee case is one of the most important in the country, and that Costa Rica, with its moral authority and progressive laws to protect children’s rights, is the perfect venue to put WWASP on trial.
"If Dundee falls in Costa Rica, then WWASP falls in the rest of the world, but if Dundee doesn’t fall, WWASP will only get stronger," Vargas said.
LICHFIELD, meanwhile, said that in the last six months he has injected $600,000 into his new academy, which he hopes to open by Jan. 1 on the same Orotina campus. He said the new academy will not be affiliated with WWASP because of the "negative attached to it."
Lichfield said he will be a consultant to the new academy, and will not be part of the ownership group, which will headed by former director Francisco Bustos and new director Herald Dabel, a Spanish professor from South Carolina.
The controversial "High Impact" boot-camp compound that Lichfield was building on the Dundee campus has since been converted into a recreational center with a weight room and movie theater, Lichfield said.
CHILD Welfare Minister Rosalía Gil has told The Tico Times she will not allow Dundee to reopen here.
Lichfield, however, said he will use the $2 million in estimated damages to Dundee as leverage to convince authorities to allow him to reopen an appropriate facility that the "Costa Rican government is comfortable with."
Lichfield, who said he donated $10,000 to campaign of President Abel Pacheco, claims he has appealed to the President for help, but added Pacheco probably "doesn’t want to touch us with a 10-foot poll."
For now, Lichfield wants to put the past behind him and "get back to what we do, and that’s help kids."
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Daily Edition: San José, Costa Rica, December 9, 2003
Dundee Campaign Donation Probed
In the latest chapter of the campaign finance scandal involving President Abel Pacheco, the office of Patriotic Parliamentary Bloc congressman Humberto Arce confirmed yesterday that it is looking into reports that Narvin Lichfield, owner of the defunct tough-love Dundee Ranch Academy, donated $10,000 to the President's election bid.
(Click for more)
[photo here of Costa Rican Congressman requesting investigation into Lichfield’s $10,000 payment to President]
Dundee Campaign Donation Probed
By Tim Rogers
December 9, 2003
[email protected]
In the latest chapter of the campaign finance scandal involving President Abel Pacheco, the office of Patriotic Parliamentary Bloc congressman Humberto Arce confirmed yesterday that it is looking into reports that Narvin Lichfield, owner of the defunct tough-love Dundee Ranch Academy, donated $10,000 to the President's election bid.
Arce, a vocal leader on the congressional committee investigating campaign finance irregularities, was asked by regional child-advocacy group Casa Alianza to look into the possibly irregular contribution following a Nov. 28 report in The Tico Times, in which Lichfield admitted he donated to Pacheco's campaign.
Lichfield acknowledged in a phone interview with The Tico Times last month that he had donated money to Pacheco's campaign, and had appealed to the President for help when his academy was forced to close in May on allegations of children's rights abuses.
Foreign campaign donations are illegal under Costa Rica's Electoral Code.
The Pacheco campaign team, however, managed to skirt finance regulations by creating a parallel fund-raising structure to handle irregular donations that were never reported to the Supreme Elections Tribunal (TSE), as required by law.
Although Lichfield admitted to the donation, a Tico Times' investigation of TSE campaign-finance records turned up no such financial contribution either in the name of Lichfield, his Costa Rican wife, academy director Joe Atkin, Dundee Ranch Academy, Rancho Dundee, or the WorldWide Association of Specialty Programs.
Dundee Ranch Academy, a behavior-modification program for wayward U.S. teenagers, was closed May 24 following two government interventions to investigate allegations of rights abuse (TT, Oct. 25, 2002; Jan. 17, March 14, May 23, 30). Lichfield was arrested and jailed for 24 hours, before being released on conditional freedoms.
Pacheco is currently out of the country and the Casa Presidencial did not respond to The Tico Times inquiries by press time yesterday.
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Related:
http://www.ticotimes.net/ (http://www.ticotimes.net/)
.no date saved.
Ombudsman Rules on Dundee
Report: PANI
Failed to
Protect Kids
By Tim Rogers
Tico Times Staff
[email protected]
Blasting the Child Welfare Office (PANI) for acting "permissive and tolerant" of alleged children's rights abuses at Dundee Ranch Academy, the Ombudsman's Office this week recommended the PANI develop new protocol for situations where children are at high risk and to conduct an internal investigation to determine who is responsible for the Dundee disaster.
The Ombudsman's report noted the PANI was first informed of alleged child abuse at Dundee from a report published in The Tico Times Oct. 25, 2002, but did not intervene until four months later, in 2003. Once the PANI investigation officially began last February, it was not conducted with the urgency or inter-institutional cooperation the situation required, the report charges.
"The PANI did not alert or coordinate with corresponding [government] institutions to guarantee the attention and protection of the minors interned at Dundee Ranch Academy," the Ombudsman's investigation found.
The report concludes by recommending that the PANI - in compliance with its own legal mandate - develop a manual to coordinate inter-institutional attention to minors, elaborate clear new policies to respond immediately to situations where children are at high risk, and conduct an internal investigation to determine whether any child-welfare authority requires disciplinary actions.
PANI Minister Rosalia Gil this week said, "We are taking all the recommendations," but did not elaborate.
The Ombudsman's Office also recommended that the Ministry of Health develop better controls to monitor sanitary conditions at facilities where minors are lodged. The Ministry has 15 working days to notify the Ombudsman's Office how it will implement the new controls, according to the report.
The Ombudsman's Office - an independent government watchdog organization - has no legal authority, but in the words of former Ombudswoman Sandra Piszk, is empowered by a "moral force."
DUNDEE Ranch, a U.S.-run behavior-modification facility that housed about 200 troubled teenagers from the United States, was closed May 26 following a week of rioting, vandalism and students running away from its campus on the remote grounds of a former hotel in the Caribbean slope town of Orotina (TT May 23, 2003). The chaotic student revolt was sparked by a government intervention ordered by the Prosecutor's Office in Atenas to investigate allegations of abuse and students being held at Dundee against their will.
According to an incident report by the Health Ministry - one of five government agencies present during the intervention - the situation at Dundee spiraled out of control when Prosecutor Fernando Vargas assembled the students and asked them to attest to the positive and negative aspects of the Academy.
Once the kids started to discuss openly the disciplinary tactics employed at Dundee, they started to challenge the academy's authority and the situation became "unmanageable as the youth started to express their desires to leave and communicate with their families because they were uncomfortable with the Academy's norms," according to the report.
Academy owner Narvin Lichfield, of St. George, Utah, was arrested on allegations of abuse, coercion and international rights violations. He was released from jail 24 hours later under a series of conditions, and Dundee was closed (TT May 23, 30; June 6, 13).
Lichfield told The Tico Times last week that he is still not sure what he did wrong, and hopes to reopen an improved version of Dundee Ranch in compliance with Costa Rican law, by December (TT, Sept. 5). PANI Minister Gil, meanwhile, said last Friday that she will do what she can to make sure Dundee does not reopen.
"We don't want them here," she said.
THE Ombudsman's Office opened its investigation of the government's handling of Dundee last June and requested detailed reports of actions taken by the PANI, the Ministry of Health, the Ministry of Education and the Drug and Alcohol Institute (TT, June 13). The Ombudsman's final report found only the PANI and the Health Ministry to be accountable.
The PANI's report to the Ombudsman, obtained this week by The Tico Times, indicates that child welfare authorities had been conducting a confidential preliminary investigation in coordination with the U.S. Embassy since the beginning of 2003. The report claims the PANI gave Dundee an extra-official verbal warning that it needed to make drastic changes to its sanitary conditions, health services, disciplinary tactics - including physical restraints and solitary confinement of students - and respect children's rights to free communication, recreation time and privacy, if it hoped to remain open.
The Academy also was told it was not allowed to open its facility known as "High Impact" - a walled compound under construction at Dundee to "jail" habitually disobedient students (TT, Oct. 25, 2002).
The PANI claimed it was trying to handle the issue discreetly and confidentially, given the complicating fact that most of the students were from the United States and placed at Dundee with the consent of their parents or custodial guardian.
However, when the issue attracted international attention in the New York Times last May, the PANI was forced to show its cards and play catch-up with the Prosecutor's Office, which ordered an intervention the morning of May 19 based on a complaint filed by Sue Flowers, mother of a student at Dundee (TT; May 30).
UPON receiving notice of the planned intervention, the PANI quickly went public with its probe. It notified the Academy it had 30 days to make 15 necessary changes to remain open, and filed a criminal complaint with the Prosecutor's Office the same day ordering authorities at Dundee to "immediately cease all situations that violate or threaten to violate the rights of the children there." The first of the two government investigations occurred the following day.
Despite failing to notify other government institutions of its three-month-old confidential probe of Dundee, the PANI expressed outrage that the Prosecutor's Office took the initiative to intervene, effectively hijacking the child welfare agency's investigation.
"The events that occurred following the intervention of the Prosecutor are precisely what the PANI did not want to happen," according to the PANI's report to the Ombudsman's Office.
DESPITE claims by Dundee defenders that the Academy's extreme "tough-love" tactics were necessary to help youth dealing with extreme discipline problems, the Ombudsman's final report confirms allegations made by the former facility's many critics.
The program was based on a "methodology of behavior and environmental modification" without proper professional support, according to the report. The program was drastic, using extreme measures to control the teenagers, such as food deprivation, harsh living conditions and diverse punishments to force the kids to behave.
The Health Ministry also found several heavy drugs - psychotropic, sedative and anti-convulsant medications - that were distributed in the Academy infirmary, even though it lacked a proper license from the Health Ministry. The finding seemed to lend credence to allegations made by several former students that youths were drugged with "morphine" and a "lithium knock-off" to keep them under control.
Lichfield denies knowledge of the alleged druggings.
The U.S. Congress also has taken interest in the Utah-based WorldWide Association of Specialty Programs (WWASP), the behavior-modification umbrella organization to which Dundee belonged.
House Representative George Miller of California, the ranking Democrat on the House Education Committee, last month asked the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) to review WWASP's tax-exempt status and investigate whether the organization has received any special tax treatment in the past.
One of Rep. Miller's congressional aides said this week that the congressman also is preparing to ask U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft to open a federal criminal investigation into alleged child mistreatment at WWASP programs.
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"BuzzKill" wrote:
Rex - It IS indeed a given that you don't know what your talking about :)
Your smiley face was meant to imply this? So, you didn't really mean to say 30 or 40 years ago? Or that you could guess our age? That was a joke of some sort? Please don't take My smile face that way. ;)
Respond to the heart of your post - OK:
I happen to know Costa Rica very well. I stay at a place in downtown San Jose (when on vacation), not far from the theater. It is where the governor used to have his residents. Beautiful 20th century villa, wide open. You eat breakfast outside, the climate is stable being so close to the equator, your high enough in the mountains for the temperature to remain cool in the morning.
It is called the, Rosa del Paseo, translation (rose of the ride), there are roses everywhere on the property, you can see them as you ride down paseo colon.
Buzz you are obviously are in a bad mood or are constantly in a state of flux concerning your experiences with your specific program. Yes, from your writings here and else where I am able to pick this up. My opinion, here.
I am not here to fight with you or have choice words, I said I meant it in jest, if you don't want to accept that fine. Lets just move on and I will communicate with others.
I am familar with Dundee Ranch and their history. Thank god it is over and closed yet that doesn't do anything for the wreckage of the past.
The dentist I use in San Jose, his father was very familiar with abuses going on there and was happy to see it closed.
I noticed in your post about Dundee Ranch they used the word tico a few times, this word and Dundee Ranch should never be used in the same sentence or paragraph again.
Tico, is a enduring reference you use to call a special friend, "a tico".
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I am familar with Dundee Ranch and their history. Thank god it is over and closed
Well Dundee did what is often done in this business - got closed then re-opened with a new name and a "kinder-gentler" program.
A rose by any other name is still a rose. . . or private, for profit, abusive and negligent teen ware-house that changes its name is still a . . . and all that jazz. . .
Buzz you are obviously are in a bad mood
No - not at all. Do I really seem Bitchy to you? Just for posting published examples of why these programs are dangerous and damaging to the point they might push a person clean over the edge? Would you like to see more? I have tons stashed away on any number of programs.
or are constantly in a state of flux concerning your experiences with your specific program.
State of Flux? Well, once upon a time - but not in a while. Certainly not now.
Yes, from your writings here and else where I am able to pick this up. My opinion, here.
This is the problem I was trying to point out earlier. . . You can Not pick this up. You only think you can. But at least you acknowledge this is just your opinion.
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I am familar with Dundee Ranch and their history. Thank god it is over and closed
Well Dundee did what is often done in this business - got closed then re-opened with a new name and a "kinder-gentler" program.
A rose by any other name is still a rose. . . or private, for profit, abusive and negligent teen ware-house that changes its name is still a . . . and all that jazz. . .
Buzz you are obviously are in a bad mood
No - not at all. Do I really seem Bitchy to you? Just for posting published examples of why these programs are dangerous and damaging to the point they might push a person clean over the edge? Would you like to see more? I have tons stashed away on any number of programs.
or are constantly in a state of flux concerning your experiences with your specific program.
State of Flux? Well, once upon a time - but not in a while. Certainly not now.
Yes, from your writings here and else where I am able to pick this up. My opinion, here.
This is the problem I was trying to point out earlier. . . You can Not pick this up. You only think you can. But at least you acknowledge this is just your opinion.
Buzzkill wrote:
This is the problem I was trying to point out earlier. . . You can Not pick this up. You only think you can. But at least you acknowledge this is just your opinion.
Why can I not pick this up. I use the phrase "pick this up" to mean, I am internalizing what you/they are sharing and relating it to my experiences. I am feeling emotions of empathy and compassion and also intellectualizing the abusive processes people went through.
Yes, I believe I can, "pick this up" on the threads here.
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I noticed in your post about Dundee Ranch they used the word tico a few times, this word and Dundee Ranch should never be used in the same sentence or paragraph again.
Tico, is a enduring reference you use to call a special friend, "a tico".
Lol. Each and every occurrence of the word "tico" on the entire previous page of this thread was within the phrase "The Tico Times," namely the news organization which originally published these articles.
I happen to know Costa Rica very well. I stay at a place in downtown San Jose (when on vacation), not far from the theater.
According to the top banner on their homepage (http://http://www.ticotimes.net/), The Tico Times would appear to be based right in San José, Costa Rica. Ever hear of them?
Perhaps you were simply not reading Buzz's posts carefully enough, T-Rex.
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tico.....
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I noticed in your post about Dundee Ranch they used the word tico a few times, this word and Dundee Ranch should never be used in the same sentence or paragraph again.
Tico, is a enduring reference you use to call a special friend, "a tico".
Lol. Each and every occurrence of the word "tico" on the entire previous page of this thread was within the phrase "The Tico Times," namely the news organization which originally published these articles.
OK.....
I happen to know Costa Rica very well. I stay at a place in downtown San Jose (when on vacation), not far from the theater.
According to the top banner on their homepage (http://http://www.ticotimes.net/), The Tico Times would appear to be based right in San José, Costa Rica. Ever hear of them?
It would have been hard not to, giving my amount of time there.
Perhaps you were simply not reading Buzz's posts carefully enough, T-Rex.
I thought what I had to say was self explanatory. Thanks any way.
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I agree it is never one thing that makes someone kill themself but several people on here have said that their experiences in places that they found abusive did make them feel suicidal. When a kid comes out of a similar place and then dies at a young age it does suggest a possible link. If someone else went to the same place and feels like they were helped i don't feel like it is my place to dispute them. But i would still argue that it is too much of a risk to send any kid to such a place because there are better ways of helping a kid than sending them away to an isolated environment on the off chance that they might be one of the people that feel helped.
I am sure that most parents are an active part of the process because they care about their kid. But Buzzkill said that the mentality in her experience is to break down kids and then rebuild them and used a baking analogy. This is really obnoxious concept. Becuase they are suggesting that it is no longer about helping a kid to overcome some kind of self destruction, but changing them into exactly the person a parent might want. To me that indicates the only way a family can heal is if a kid ceases to be themself and instead gets a whole other personality
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What can happen when a vulnerable soul — perhaps going through a thorny patch in life or a difficult transition — gets subjected to confrontational "therapy" or a regimen of encounter groups such as is practiced in TTI programs, as well as many newage emotional/spiritual growth organizations?
Read about what happened to one such man, who experienced but a weekend of the New Warrior Training Adventure put on by the MKP, in Naked Men: The ManKind Project and Michael Scinto (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&p=373878#p373876) over in the HAPA -- an LGAT thread... R.I.P.
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:suicide:
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What can happen when a vulnerable soul — perhaps going through a thorny patch in life or a difficult transition — gets subjected to confrontational "therapy" or a regimen of encounter groups such as is practiced in TTI programs, as well as many newage emotional/spiritual growth organizations?
Read about what happened to one such man, who experienced but a weekend of the New Warrior Training Adventure put on by the MKP, in Naked Men: The ManKind Project and Michael Scinto (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&p=373878#p373876) over in the HAPA -- an LGAT thread... R.I.P.
that sure looks nuts. Although it looks like that was for adults who i can only assume signed on themselves. I feel sad for that man though. I feel like it is far worse for adolescents to be made do something that intense. I read somewhere the teenage brain is still developing until the age of 25. I wonder what such an extreme and intense an environment can do to a kid's mind.
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Understanding LGAT, what it is, how it works and why it is so dangerous, is very important to understanding how some of these programs operate and grow. Its covered pretty well in the book: Cults in our Midst. There is quite a bit on Rick Ross' web site too. ISAC used to have a bunch of links on the topic. I guess someone needs to try and recreate that links resource.
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I went through it, a bunch of your "peers" yell at you or tell you what feelings you should have about this that or the other thing, and you either get approval or sat down by the group staff. I almost wanted to reply "What is there to understand? It's so obviously a bunch of bullshit," but it may be harder to grasp this if you didn't witness it firsthand. In a few words, LGAT is re-enforced group-think: The individual -- or what's left of the individual -- attempts to develop another 'personality' in this environment in effort to cope (or they're just a good liar). Either way, not what I'd call healthy.
I leave it to the professionals to do the math and tell me how two years of this "therapy" would affect a kid's mind...
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Understanding LGAT, what it is, how it works and why it is so dangerous, is very important to understanding how some of these programs operate and grow. Its covered pretty well in the book: Cults in our Midst. There is quite a bit on Rick Ross' web site too. ISAC used to have a bunch of links on the topic. I guess someone needs to try and recreate that links resource.
I read cults in our mist recently. Overall i thought it was pretty good and i agreed with her a lot. But id guess the only thing i thought she was maybe missing is that at the end of the day adults can decide for themselves whether to join some crazy organization and to some extent when to walk away. I know that you are more likely to if you are going through some life changes, I think because most a geared around some kind of self improvement. Still at the end of the day it is a decision that a person makes
But kids don't have a choice. I know that when i was a kid I could be a royal bastard. Seriously, I could have a hardcore pro lifer arguing for abortion and just holding up my picture as all the proof needed. I know some of this was just because it was fun and some of it was because i did not like who i was and did not feel i measured up to my older brothers. So going somewhere that tried to make me into another person and that totally isolated me from my family and friends i think probably would have made me far more confused and miserable. I dont know if i would become suicidal but i can see how an already depressed kid particularly if it is at a clinical level would be pushed over the edge.
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If I commit suicide, it will not be to destroy myself but to put myself back together again. Suicide will be for me only one means of violently reconquering myself, of brutally invading my being, of anticipating the unpredictable approaches of God. By suicide, I reintroduce my design in nature, I shall for the first time give things the shape of my will.
-Antonin Artaud
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I have read many of the posts here and I have to agree with reform 12, that to argue with someone here who experienced a program first hand is disrespectful.
To bring the conversation here to a more professional level (I am not a professional) in the absence of Doctors, one point of mine is adults have the benefit of making their own decisions, we can argue that they are manipulated but they still make their own decisions.
Children on the other hand don't make their own decisions, their parents do. Thank god for that because I believe there would be many more suicides. Suck-It made a great point who is investigating the suicides happening that could have been prevented if the child was placed in a program designed for them.
Fornits wants to argue that children should have more rights, OK, I'll go with that so long as you raise all these children with all these new rights.
Having raised children I know they are all different, they come into maturity at different times, their common sense comes at different times also. Now have a child having issues reaching maturity because of severe mental and emotional problems out of the reach of the parents ability to correct.
I have not read a post yet from a parent here that raised a child with severe mental and emotional issues and explained how they dealt with this. I am not talking about a friend or relative, I am talking about you. I was blessed with well rounded children, thank god. So I have no experience first hand in raising a child with chronic self destructive issues. I am not talking about the issues children grow of in a year or less.
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I am not from north america. But I am from a country which in the 90s experienced a massive spike in youth suicides particularly in rural young men. A lot of research went into how to address this issue and many measures both public and philanthropically funded were taken. Most of the money went into local counselling services, support for the bereaved, anti bullying measures, increased medical resources in isolated areas and anonymous hotlines as well as internet based education campaigns on mental health and how best to support a loved one of any age that may be clinically mentally ill or seriously distressed. Between 1997 when the issue was at its peak and now the rate has fallen steadily every year not just in young people but across the board. Not one of the measures taken involved taking anyone against their will away from their community or being forced to attend an emotional workshop that they were uncomfortable with. I dont say this to be disrespectful of america but to answer the question of how many kids can be helped in a measurable way that t rex and suck it posed.
I also think it is a fine line t rex between parenting and throwing in the towel. I get that a kid with a lot of problems is not easy to cope with and that many parents feel this is their last resort but removal from the community has never historically worked. Not with indigenous children or orphans or even children legally defined as deliquent.
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Children on the other hand don't make their own decisions, their parents do. Thank god for that because I believe there would be many more suicides.
What about the kids attempting or committing suicide specifically because of what happened to them in program? Outside of court-mandated placements, it was the parents' decision(s) that put these kids there.
I don't wish to imply that this is totally the parents' fault here. We live in a society which seems to take as a given, despite evidence to the contrary, that emotional growth programs and residential placements are an appropriate answer.
Other countries would appear to be less inculcated in that respect, and yet they are still making progress in reducing their suicide rates:
Between 1997 when the issue was at its peak and now the [suicide] rate has fallen steadily every year not just in young people but across the board. Not one of the measures taken involved taking anyone against their will away from their community or being forced to attend an emotional workshop that they were uncomfortable with.
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The difficulty in all of this is trying to determine the cause of suicide in each case. The sudden onset of feelings of suicide may be exasperated by a child being placed into a program or the feelings may be abated by the security and structure that many programs can offer.
A Study performed by a Colgate University Graduate student found that the children’s stay in a residential program decreased the tendency to commit suicide after graduating. The kids surveyed were out of the program from 6 months to over two years and 12% of ASR students had attempted suicide prior to treatment, and none reported attempting suicide after treatment.
Link (http://http://groups.colgate.edu/cjs/student_papers/2002/VShapiro.pdf)
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I am not from north america. But I am from a country which in the 90s experienced a massive spike in youth suicides particularly in rural young men. A lot of research went into how to address this issue and many measures both public and philanthropically funded were taken. Most of the money went into local counselling services, support for the bereaved, anti bullying measures, increased medical resources in isolated areas and anonymous hotlines as well as internet based education campaigns on mental health and how best to support a loved one of any age that may be clinically mentally ill or seriously distressed. Between 1997 when the issue was at its peak and now the rate has fallen steadily every year not just in young people but across the board. Not one of the measures taken involved taking anyone against their will away from their community or being forced to attend an emotional workshop that they were uncomfortable with. I dont say this to be disrespectful of america but to answer the question of how many kids can be helped in a measurable way that t rex and suck it posed.
I also think it is a fine line t rex between parenting and throwing in the towel. I get that a kid with a lot of problems is not easy to cope with and that many parents feel this is their last resort but removal from the community has never historically worked. Not with indigenous children or orphans or even children legally defined as deliquent.
Have you got anything in the form of a link, publication, magazine article or anything to substantiate what you just said. I find it very hard to believe all these children where ever you are from miraculously just got better with a little counseling.
Sounds like the children they were treating had a very mild form of suicidal tendency or none at all.
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Children on the other hand don't make their own decisions, their parents do. Thank god for that because I believe there would be many more suicides.
What about the kids attempting or committing suicide specifically because of what happened to them in program? Outside of court-mandated placements, it was the parents' decision(s) that put these kids there.
I don't wish to imply that this is totally the parents' fault here. We live in a society which seems to take as a given, despite evidence to the contrary, that emotional growth programs and residential placements are an appropriate answer.
Other countries would appear to be less inculcated in that respect, and yet they are still making progress in reducing their suicide rates:
Between 1997 when the issue was at its peak and now the [suicide] rate has fallen steadily every year not just in young people but across the board. Not one of the measures taken involved taking anyone against their will away from their community or being forced to attend an emotional workshop that they were uncomfortable with.
There is nothing here to validate this point but reformed, opinion. I have respect for reform but I need more then this. Ursus since when do you just quote a post without any clinical credibility.
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Children on the other hand don't make their own decisions, their parents do. Thank god for that because I believe there would be many more suicides.
What about the kids attempting or committing suicide specifically because of what happened to them in program? Outside of court-mandated placements, it was the parents' decision(s) that put these kids there.
I don't wish to imply that this is totally the parents' fault here. We live in a society which seems to take as a given, despite evidence to the contrary, that emotional growth programs and residential placements are an appropriate answer.
Other countries would appear to be less inculcated in that respect, and yet they are still making progress in reducing their suicide rates:
Between 1997 when the issue was at its peak and now the [suicide] rate has fallen steadily every year not just in young people but across the board. Not one of the measures taken involved taking anyone against their will away from their community or being forced to attend an emotional workshop that they were uncomfortable with.
Ursus,
What has to happen here is to analyze whether the program has directly caused this suicide and discern this information with a proper case study, by professionals.
Which by my studies one has not been done officially yet. I may be wrong on that but my bet would be I'm not.
Many posters here have mentioned they believe such in such committed suicide because of his incarceration in Straight, Elan, Benchmark, HLA ect......but we have not had a psychiatric forensic study done on any subject, yet. I would love to see a extensive study done on at least one person without all the hub-bub, so I could see if it was just the program consequences.
I believe everyone here knows that for maybe 98% of these people who committed suicide in the program or after had serious mental and emotional problems prior to even entering the program. Most had already been prone to suicidal tendencies.
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Here we go with the bullshit statistics again. Whooter cites a non-study, and T-Rex pulls out some "everybody knows" shit from her ass.
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here are 2 sets one from the ABS . Both show an overall downward trent. In the first year of the campaign when suicide was at its peak and the second year there was a big drop. It has been more or less continuous since then. BTW dont you think it is a little arrogant to suggest that only 1 thing that many people have said they found made them worse off works?
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected] ... 9.0.55.001 (http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/mf/3309.0.55.001)
http://www.mindframe-media.info/site/in ... play=84340 (http://www.mindframe-media.info/site/index.cfm?display=84340)
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here are 2 sets one from the ABS . Both show an overall downward trent. In the first year of the campaign when suicide was at its peak and the second year there was a big drop. It has been more or less continuous since then. BTW dont you think it is a little arrogant to suggest that only 1 thing that many people have said they found made them worse off works?
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected] ... 9.0.55.001 (http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/mf/3309.0.55.001)
http://www.mindframe-media.info/site/in ... play=84340 (http://www.mindframe-media.info/site/index.cfm?display=84340)
How does any of this relate to the overall subject of this Web Site or the conversation were having here directly. You just posted a general summary of suicides in Australia.
Which is interesting but I am having difficulty following your thought process here.
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t rex wanted some kind of evidence that the suicide rate had fallen as a result of initiatives that do not result in sending people away from the community. These statistics show a marked drop in the suicide rate in the year that the campaign started then an overall trend of continued decreases in the suicide rate.
I am not making a comment on the website as a whole. But i assume you have been following this thread. If so you will see that some people have argued that institutionalisation made their issues worse and their desire to end it greater. Others have suggested that such a practice is necessary to save lives. I am not disputing what they personally experienced but i am suggesting that it may not be necessary because where I live this has been an issue and the issue is continually being sucessfully addressed without the need for such drastic measures. Hope this clear it up.
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t rex wanted some kind of evidence that the suicide rate had fallen as a result of initiatives that do not result in sending people away from the community. These statistics show a marked drop in the suicide rate in the year that the campaign started then an overall trent of continued decreases in the suicide rate.
I believe the rates here in the states have decreased during the same time period, although I dont know if they declined at the same rate. I would have to examine the data side by side. But the decline is interesting, thank you for the link.
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:rofl:
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t rex wanted some kind of evidence that the suicide rate had fallen as a result of initiatives that do not result in sending people away from the community. These statistics show a marked drop in the suicide rate in the year that the campaign started then an overall trend of continued decreases in the suicide rate.
I am not making a comment on the website as a whole. But i assume you have been following this thread. If so you will see that some people have argued that institutionalisation made their issues worse and their desire to end it greater. Others have suggested that such a practice is necessary to save lives. I am not disputing what they personally experienced but i am suggesting that it may not be necessary because where I live this has been an issue and the issue is continually being sucessfully addressed without the need for such drastic measures. Hope this clear it up.
The percentage of kids that attend a program is very low here in the us and typically the kids are struggling with behavior issues not suicide specific issues. So I dont see how the trends could reflect the success or failure of residential treatment based on national statistics.
In our public school system alone we are seeing between 1,300 and 1,700 children taking their own lives on school property (or traveling to and from school) each year. We rarely see a child take their own life while attending Therapeutic Boarding schools and data suggests that suicide rates decline after returning home.
But when looking at a 10.5 per 100,000 suicide rate for Australia and 11.1 for the united States it is difficult to determine contributing factors in their increase or decrease year to year. If you step back and compare our two countries against the rest of the world we are virtually at the same rate.
I understand that there appears to be a correlation with the onset of a program (which was introduced in Australia) and the decline in suicide rates, but it is difficult to attribute this decline to any one event unless a study is done to confirm it in my opinion.
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t rex wanted some kind of evidence that the suicide rate had fallen as a result of initiatives that do not result in sending people away from the community. These statistics show a marked drop in the suicide rate in the year that the campaign started then an overall trend of continued decreases in the suicide rate.
I am not making a comment on the website as a whole. But i assume you have been following this thread. If so you will see that some people have argued that institutionalisation made their issues worse and their desire to end it greater. Others have suggested that such a practice is necessary to save lives. I am not disputing what they personally experienced but i am suggesting that it may not be necessary because where I live this has been an issue and the issue is continually being sucessfully addressed without the need for such drastic measures. Hope this clear it up.
OK, but nothing I read that you offered as links is suggesting that in the summary. It is not saying that kids are going to treatment or not going to treatment.
Your saying this, which is fine because I find you to be credible in what you say.
Great article.
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you are right danny it does not talk about treatment. This is because with the exception of jail there is no place here where a kids is sent away without consent for treatment. Even in residential drug rehabs is is very rare to see an underage kid there. The closest we have is normal boarding school.
Given that even parents who send their kids away seem to say that it was not what they desired more that they had no choice then why not look at comparable systems in similar cultures? If kids dont want to go and parents dont want to send them and many come out saying it was horrific and that their suicidal feelings were worse then why bother at all? Ok some say they are helped and I accept this. But i dont accept that this is the ONLY way that they could have been helped. Because if it were that genuinely helpful it would exist in more than one place in the world and there would not be the amount of groups of people (not just on this site) that have issues with it.
For example AA for all that people like me don't go in for it, has had some level of international success. Not as much as it likes to think but some. Moreover people like me do not in the majority of places speak of being "forced" to do anything. They can always do what i did and seek a better fit and even talk about it not being for them without being told it was because of some kind of personality deficiency. This is not what I am seeing or hearing here or on facebook or anywhere else. Are there any independent govt statistics on the sucess of private programs in preventing suicide? afterall most govts have some level of stats on private schools and achievement levels.
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t rex wanted some kind of evidence that the suicide rate had fallen as a result of initiatives that do not result in sending people away from the community. These statistics show a marked drop in the suicide rate in the year that the campaign started then an overall trend of continued decreases in the suicide rate.
I am not making a comment on the website as a whole. But i assume you have been following this thread. If so you will see that some people have argued that institutionalisation made their issues worse and their desire to end it greater. Others have suggested that such a practice is necessary to save lives. I am not disputing what they personally experienced but i am suggesting that it may not be necessary because where I live this has been an issue and the issue is continually being sucessfully addressed without the need for such drastic measures. Hope this clear it up.
The percentage of kids that attend a program is very low here in the us and typically the kids are struggling with behavior issues not suicide specific issues. So I dont see how the trends could reflect the success or failure of residential treatment based on national statistics.
In our public school system alone we are seeing between 1,300 and 1,700 children taking their own lives on school property (or traveling to and from school) each year. We rarely see a child take their own life while attending Therapeutic Boarding schools and data suggests that suicide rates decline after returning home.
But when looking at a 10.5 per 100,000 suicide rate for Australia and 11.1 for the united States it is difficult to determine contributing factors in their increase or decrease year to year. If you step back and compare our two countries against the rest of the world we are virtually at the same rate.
I understand that there appears to be a correlation with the onset of a program (which was introduced in Australia) and the decline in suicide rates, but it is difficult to attribute this decline to any one event unless a study is done to confirm it in my opinion.
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I apologise for the double post. I only read this response after I had finished.-wouldnt any suicide at in in a school which is supposed to supervise kids 24/7 be pretty negligent? Isnt this the whole point of sending a kid with any issue? to get the supervision that a parent cant really provide all the time?
I appreciate that kids get sent away for a variety of reasons but this thread was on suicide. One thing that was key to the stats i put up was not to suggest by any means that things are perfect here, but to show the quite sharp drop in the first few years after the problem began being seriously addressed in ways that did not involve removing kids from their community.
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I apologise for the double post. I only read this response after I had finished.-wouldnt any suicide at in in a school which is supposed to supervise kids 24/7 be pretty negligent? Isnt this the whole point of sending a kid with any issue? to get the supervision that a parent cant really provide all the time?
No, I wouldn’t call it negligent. If a person wants to take his or her life there is not much anyone can do to stop them. The programs help the children by providing them with (and teaching them) a healthy life style, life skills, coping mechanisms and a safe and structured environment which will help the child choose a better path in life.
I appreciate that kids get sent away for a variety of reasons but this thread was on suicide. One thing that was key to the stats i put up was not to suggest by any means that things are perfect here, but to show the quite sharp drop in the first few years after the problem began being seriously addressed in ways that did not involve removing kids from their community.
I did note that you pointed this drop in suicides but this tells us that the community programs were effective in reducing the suicide rate but was not 100% effective. I am not suggesting that programs are effective for all kids struggling with issues. The majority of the children in programs have been in community based services and the parents/professionals have found them to not be successful for them so this small percentage of children are recommended to get help outside the community.
I am sure there are children in your country who have not responded well to the local services and could use a different approach. If residential treatment were successful for these children it may reduce your suicide rate even further.
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Children on the other hand don't make their own decisions, their parents do. Thank god for that because I believe there would be many more suicides.
What about the kids attempting or committing suicide specifically because of what happened to them in program? Outside of court-mandated placements, it was the parents' decision(s) that put these kids there.
I don't wish to imply that this is totally the parents' fault here. We live in a society which seems to take as a given, despite evidence to the contrary, that emotional growth programs and residential placements are an appropriate answer.
Other countries would appear to be less inculcated in that respect, and yet they are still making progress in reducing their suicide rates:
Between 1997 when the issue was at its peak and now the [suicide] rate has fallen steadily every year not just in young people but across the board. Not one of the measures taken involved taking anyone against their will away from their community or being forced to attend an emotional workshop that they were uncomfortable with.
Ursus,
What has to happen here is to analyze whether the program has directly caused this suicide and discern this information with a proper case study, by professionals.
Which by my studies one has not been done officially yet. I may be wrong on that but my bet would be I'm not.
Many posters here have mentioned they believe such in such committed suicide because of his incarceration in Straight, Elan, Benchmark, HLA ect......but we have not had a psychiatric forensic study done on any subject, yet. I would love to see a extensive study done on at least one person without all the hub-bub, so I could see if it was just the program consequences.
I believe everyone here knows that for maybe 98% of these people who committed suicide in the program or after had serious mental and emotional problems prior to even entering the program. Most had already been prone to suicidal tendencies.
Well... at the very least, ya have to admit that the program did not help them and may have even exacerbated their "problems." And yes, in some cases, specific abuses inflicted by the program or experienced while at program have been enough to cause suicidal ideation.
Personally, I think one-on-one therapy with a professional of the kid's choosing would be a far more sensible route to explore than sticking them into a Lord of the Flies scenario and hoping for the best.
Considering that some of these "problems" are little more than ordinary adolescence and that in all likelihood kids will outgrow them, as they usually tend to do, the fact that programs can push kids over the edge to the point of suicide would be of concern to me, were I a parent contemplating their kid's enrollment...
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nothing in the world is 100% effective.
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The majority of the children in programs have been in community based services and the parents/professionals have found them to not be successful for them so this small percentage of children are recommended to get help outside the community.
Citation please? This strikes me as one of those very odd "Whooter facts."
The majority of kids in program with me had NOT been involved in community based services. In fact, it would appear that some parents send kids to programs precisely to avoid community based services.
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The majority of the children in programs have been in community based services and the parents/professionals have found them to not be successful for them so this small percentage of children are recommended to get help outside the community.
Citation please? This strikes me as one of those very odd "Whooter facts."
The majority of kids in program with me had NOT been involved in community based services. In fact, it would appear that some parents send kids to programs precisely to avoid community based services.
It seems the more we learn about each others experiences and programs the more they vary. Everyone of the kids in my daughters peer group and everyone she talked about and those parents I spoke to had been in treatment locally prior to being sent to the boarding school. I am curious as to why Hyde would have such a disproportionate number of kids who were never involved locally. It seems to be such a natural thing to try to resolve your child’s problem in the least restrictive manner before pursuing a placement outside the home.
Why send them away as a first option? It doesn’t make sense.
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The long term private program I finally ended up at was the last option. For several years actually my parents tried all the local options, and I would just manipulate my way out of them. I would just sit there and laugh at therapists, and say nothing. When I was put in a hospital I just lied and promised to be sober and said I'm fine and they let me out. When I would get arrested I would say it will never happen again. When they decided to put me in community based residential treatment I ran away and got high and they kicked me out. I would be put in hospital again for being suicidal, but they would always let me out in a matter of days or weeks. The community options aren't designed to be long term, and didn't work for someone like me who is willing to do anything to stay the way they are. I was a suicidal drug addict, who regularly committed crimes and had no regard to authority, of my family or the law.
My family really couldn't afford long term treatment, they had insurance to pay for everything prior from their work, but out of pocket was difficult. But they had no other choice and sold things, and cut back on expenses. My own actions cost my family a lot of money, and took away from things my siblings would have got. My own selfishness caused great suffering and setbacks for my entire family. Back then though, I felt like I was the victim. I was very self centered and arrogant, and really didn't care about anybody else but myself. I wanted what I wanted, and I would do anything, say anything, and go anywhere to do it. I actually had so many issues and such a long and sordid history that the private program was reluctant to take me at first, but my family begged and pleaded and told them it was the only option left. Had I been left to my own devices back then, I would of surely ended up in jail, or dead.
The program knew I was suicidal and put me on suicide watch and, literally would watch me 24 hrs a day, and it worked. I even tried once and was forcefully stopped, I was held down and kept from doing it and then talked down from the emotional state I was in. This is something that cannot be provided in a community option, or by parents themselves. It might seem extreme, and it was to me at the time, it seemed excessive. But to look back at my behavior in an honest way now makes me ashamed, and also understanding of all the actions the people surrounding me were forced to take. When you are a minor, people aren't going to sit around and let you destroy yourself. Your parents are ultimately responsible, and when I'd get in trouble with the law they were constantly reminded of that. I created so many problems for my family, it makes me sad to think about it. I hope in the long run they can forgive me for how I was, but I don't expect it really. It took me some time to learn to take personal accountability for everything I did, and not look at myself as a victim of my family, or treatment programs, or the law. It was me, it was all me, and people were just trying to intervene before it was too late. The program saved my life, by saving me from myself. It's pathetic to admit something like that, but its 100% accurate.
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The long term private program I finally ended up at was the last option. For several years actually my parents tried all the local options, and I would just manipulate my way out of them. I would just sit there and laugh at therapists, and say nothing. When I was put in a hospital I just lied and promised to be sober and said I'm fine and they let me out. When I would get arrested I would say it will never happen again. When they decided to put me in community based residential treatment I ran away and got high and they kicked me out. I would be put in hospital again for being suicidal, but they would always let me out in a matter of days or weeks. The community options aren't designed to be long term, and didn't work for someone like me who is willing to do anything to stay the way they are. I was a suicidal drug addict, who regularly committed crimes and had no regard to authority, of my family or the law.
My family really couldn't afford long term treatment, they had insurance to pay for everything prior from their work, but out of pocket was difficult. But they had no other choice and sold things, and cut back on expenses. My own actions cost my family a lot of money, and took away from things my siblings would have got. My own selfishness caused great suffering and setbacks for my entire family. Back then though, I felt like I was the victim. I was very self centered and arrogant, and really didn't care about anybody else but myself. I wanted what I wanted, and I would do anything, say anything, and go anywhere to do it. I actually had so many issues and such a long and sordid history that the private program was reluctant to take me at first, but my family begged and pleaded and told them it was the only option left. Had I been left to my own devices back then, I would of surely ended up in jail, or dead.
The program knew I was suicidal and put me on suicide watch and, literally would watch me 24 hrs a day, and it worked. I even tried once and was forcefully stopped, I was held down and kept from doing it and then talked down from the emotional state I was in. This is something that cannot be provided in a community option, or by parents themselves. It might seem extreme, and it was to me at the time, it seemed excessive. But to look back at my behavior in an honest way now makes me ashamed, and also understanding of all the actions the people surrounding me were forced to take. When you are a minor, people aren't going to sit around and let you destroy yourself. Your parents are ultimately responsible, and when I'd get in trouble with the law they were constantly reminded of that. I created so many problems for my family, it makes me sad to think about it. I hope in the long run they can forgive me for how I was, but I don't expect it really. It took me some time to learn to take personal accountability for everything I did, and not look at myself as a victim of my family, or treatment programs, or the law. It was me, it was all me, and people were just trying to intervene before it was too late. The program saved my life, by saving me from myself. It's pathetic to admit something like that, but its 100% accurate.
- You are full of shit - :rocker: :rocker: :rocker: :rocker: :rocker:
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....................Total student,
.............staff, and nonstudent ................. Homicides of youth ages 5–18 ....................Suicides of youth ages 5–18
.............school-associated.............................. Homicides.......Total .................................Suicides..........Total
Year .............violent deaths1 .........................at school2.....homicides3...........................at school2........suicides4
1992–93 ...........57..............................................34.............2,689....................................6................1,680
1993–94 ..........48...............................................29.............2,879....................................7................1,723
1994–95 ...........48..............................................28.............2,654....................................7................1,767
1995–96 ..........53...............................................32.............2,512....................................6................1,725
1996–97 ..........48...............................................28.............2,189....................................1................1,633
1997–98 ..........57...............................................34.............2,056....................................6................1,626
1998–99 ..........47...............................................33.............1,762....................................4................1,597
1999–2000 .......36...............................................13.............1,537....................................8................1,415
2000–01 ..........30...............................................11.............1,466....................................4.................1,493
2001–02 ..........40...............................................16.............1,468....................................6.................1,400
2002–03 ..........35...............................................18.............1,515....................................9.................1,331
2003–04 ..........35...............................................19.............1,437....................................3.................1,285
2004–05 ..........48...............................................21...............—.......................................7...................—
— Not available.
1 School-associated violent deaths include a homicide, suicide, legal intervention (involving a law enforcement officer), or unintentional firearm-related death in which the fatal injury
occurred on the campus of a functioning elementary or secondary school in the United States, while the victim was on the way to or from regular sessions at school or while the victim was
attending or traveling to or from an official school-sponsored event. Victims include students, staff members, and others who are not students, from July 1, 1992, through June 30, 2005.
2 Youth ages 5–18 from July 1, 1992, through June 30, 2005.
3 Youth ages 5–18 from July 1, 1992, through June 30, 2004.
4 Youth ages 5–18 in the calendar year from 1992 to 2003.
5 Data are preliminary and subject to change.
NOTE: “At school” includes on school property, on the way to or from regular sessions at school, and while attending or traveling to or from a school-sponsored event.
SOURCE: Data on homicides and suicides of youth ages 5–18 at school and total school-associated violent deaths are from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC),
1992–2005 School-Associated Violent Deaths Surveillance Study (SAVD), partially funded by the U.S. Department of Education, Office of Safe and Drug-Free Schools, previously
unpublished tabulation (May 2006); data on total suicides of youth ages 5–18 are from the CDC, National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, Web-based Injury Statistics Query and
Reporting System Fatal (WISQARS™ Fatal) 1999–2003, retrieved July 2006 from http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/wisqars; (http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/wisqars;) and data on total homicides of youth ages 5–18 for the 1992–93 through
2003–04 school years are from the Supplementary Homicide Reports (SHR) collected by the Federal Bureau of Investigation and tabulated by the Bureau of Justice Statistics, preliminary
data (July 2006).
2001 - 2005 still incomplete
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Personally, I think one-on-one therapy with a professional of the kid's choosing would be a far more sensible route to explore than sticking them into a Lord of the Flies scenario and hoping for the best.
Considering that some of these "problems" are little more than ordinary adolescence and that in all likelihood kids will outgrow them, as they usually tend to do, the fact that programs can push kids over the edge to the point of suicide would be of concern to me, were I a parent contemplating their kid's enrollment...
Actually it is funny you talk about ordinary adolescents. A lot of kids when the anti suicide campaign here began did not even go in for traditional therapy in the american context. this is because rurally there arent that many services. But some did after consulting with their local doctor. Many just utilized the various hotlines that were set up. Particularly gay and lesbian kids that were struggling with it. Others did get more professional help. I also think changing the culture of schools helped a lot. It is a big and at times ugly part of australian culture that nobody respects a dobber. This means that traditionally bullies got away with anything. This culture is slowly changing and kids are being taught that there is a difference between getting help in stadning up for yourself and just ratting out a kid for something that is relatively victimless. Whooter is putting up all of these dire stats about kids dying on their way home from school. What is the bullying situation in american schools? is much being done about it?
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Children on the other hand don't make their own decisions, their parents do. Thank god for that because I believe there would be many more suicides.
What about the kids attempting or committing suicide specifically because of what happened to them in program? Outside of court-mandated placements, it was the parents' decision(s) that put these kids there.
I don't wish to imply that this is totally the parents' fault here. We live in a society which seems to take as a given, despite evidence to the contrary, that emotional growth programs and residential placements are an appropriate answer.
Other countries would appear to be less inculcated in that respect, and yet they are still making progress in reducing their suicide rates:
Between 1997 when the issue was at its peak and now the [suicide] rate has fallen steadily every year not just in young people but across the board. Not one of the measures taken involved taking anyone against their will away from their community or being forced to attend an emotional workshop that they were uncomfortable with.
Ursus,
What has to happen here is to analyze whether the program has directly caused this suicide and discern this information with a proper case study, by professionals.
Which by my studies one has not been done officially yet. I may be wrong on that but my bet would be I'm not.
Many posters here have mentioned they believe such in such committed suicide because of his incarceration in Straight, Elan, Benchmark, HLA ect......but we have not had a psychiatric forensic study done on any subject, yet. I would love to see a extensive study done on at least one person without all the hub-bub, so I could see if it was just the program consequences.
I believe everyone here knows that for maybe 98% of these people who committed suicide in the program or after had serious mental and emotional problems prior to even entering the program. Most had already been prone to suicidal tendencies.
Well... at the very least, ya have to admit that the program did not help them and may have even exacerbated their "problems." And yes, in some cases, specific abuses inflicted by the program or experienced while at program have been enough to cause suicidal ideation.
No I will not argue that point, especially if they were in a program such as Elan.
Personally, I think one-on-one therapy with a professional of the kid's choosing would be a far more sensible route to explore than sticking them into a Lord of the Flies scenario and hoping for the best.
One on one counseling of the kids choosing, "yeah right". The kid is what, 15 years old, having suicidal craving and your saying the child should be interviewing Doctors, for his therapy.
Ursus if you could be anymore phony, I don't think it is possible.
Considering that some of these "problems" are little more than ordinary adolescence and that in all likelihood kids will outgrow them, as they usually tend to do, the fact that programs can push kids over the edge to the point of suicide would be of concern to me, were I a parent contemplating their kid's enrollment...
Problems, "are little more than ordinary adolescence and that they will grow out of it" is this what "grandma" told ya Ursus. In one of her old fable books.
Well when you want to grow up or wake up, will be waiting right here to have a big boy conversation with you.
Your type of flagrant disregard of children's need for treatment is only exacerbating the suicide rate, Ursus.
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Report this postReply with quoteRe: Suicide
by Whooter » Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:53 pm
No, I wouldn’t call it negligent. If a person wants to take his or her life there is not much anyone can do to stop them. The programs help the children by providing them with (and teaching them) a healthy life style, life skills, coping mechanisms and a safe and structured environment which will help the child choose a better path in life.
How do these programs help exactly Whooter? Also wouldn't something like a suicide watch, for an at risk kid be considered proactive? In that same sense wouldn't not monitoring a child who is at risk then negligent?
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Report this postReply with quoteRe: Suicide
by Whooter » Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:53 pm
No, I wouldn’t call it negligent. If a person wants to take his or her life there is not much anyone can do to stop them. The programs help the children by providing them with (and teaching them) a healthy life style, life skills, coping mechanisms and a safe and structured environment which will help the child choose a better path in life.
How do these programs help exactly Whooter? Also wouldn't something like a suicide watch, for an at risk kid be considered proactive? In that same sense wouldn't not monitoring a child who is at risk then negligent?
Geez, I wish we could all live in your simple practical world. Why don't ya write up a finding and submit it to Whooter, Suck It and myself for a Peer Review, OK, DJ.
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I'm not sure there's anyone posting on here ill informed enough to be considered your peer Danny. You're just going to have to learn to keep up with the rest of us.
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I'm not sure there's anyone posting on here ill informed enough to be considered your peer Danny. You're just going to have to learn to keep up with the rest of us.
Keep trying there young man, DJ one day you will catch up with exactly who I am and how informed I really am.
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Well given that you can't seem to keep track of which poster is which I'd say you're riding the short bus to school these days. That aside, what is you actually believe you're informed about?
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http://http://www.beforeyoutakethatpill.com/index.php/2010/07/20/american-shrinkery-update-dan-carlat-md-in-unhinged/comment-page-1/#comment-8433 This is for YOU BIBLE THUMPING DANNO! :suicide:
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Well given that you can't seem to keep track of which poster is which I'd say you're riding the short bus to school these days. That aside, what is you actually believe you're informed about?
Well I am so happy that the real you has finally surfaced, I always knew your another of the pseudo immoral posters here.
"I'd say you're riding the short bus", so all the autistic, high functioning autistic, aspergers, emotionally challenged, mentally retarded and others that ride that bus can be put up for ridicule in your book. You are offended by a post I wrote so you ridicule children we represent on this site, to offend me.
This is why I want nothing to do with you because you are full of shit, your a typical fat ass white boy hanging around with to much education and no common sense. Plus I would not doubt that posting on this website is somehow some social status thing with you, especially amongst your friends. Oh, look at me, I'm helping kids. I am a advocate.
Go buy a T-Shirt......
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I've got to say Danny, I find it ironic that you're trying to take the moral high ground when you in fact have no issues with kids being beat up, so as long as they're inner city kids. I won't bother to address any of your assumptions about me, because they're all wrong and without any basis. I will however address the fact that for all your bloviating you seem unable to answer simple questions. Why is that?
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I've got to say Danny, I find it ironic that you're trying to take the moral high ground when you in fact have no issues with kids being beat up, so as long as they're inner city kids. I won't bother to address any of your assumptions about me, because they're all wrong and without any basis. I will however address the fact that for all your bloviating you seem unable to answer simple questions. Why is that?
Dude I am the moral high ground and don't forget it. I lived this shit as a inner city kid.
BTW, yes I have no problem with kids getting off steam, why do you?
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what does any of this have to do with suicide?
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Dude I am the moral high ground and don't forget it. I lived this shit as a inner city kid.
BTW, yes I have no problem with kids getting off steam, why do you?
:roflmao:
No Danny, you really aren't. You're just some tired slob who has never done anything for these kids. You somehow believe by attempting to attack people you know nothing about, that you're somehow making a contribution.
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Ya know Reform, your right this "side show' has nothing to do with suicide, my bad. I got off track. My apologies.
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So then what have you done to help any of these kids who were at risk for suicide?
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I find it interesting that suicide rates, in general and especially younger people, have been declining since the 1990's. I wonder what is driving this? More options exist now for people who previously would feel trapped? Medication is more effective? Better treatment options?
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I find it interesting that suicide rates, in general and especially younger people, have been declining since the 1990's. I wonder what is driving this? More options exist now for people who previously would feel trapped? Medication is more effective? Better treatment options?
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Actually Whooter, you're incorrect. Since the early 2000's the number of teen suicides seems to be increasing. Here take a look:
http://http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/files/SuicideTrends.ppt
Why do you think that is?
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I find it interesting that suicide rates, in general and especially younger people, have been declining since the 1990's. I wonder what is driving this? More options exist now for people who previously would feel trapped? Medication is more effective? Better treatment options?
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Actually Whooter, you're incorrect. Since the early 2000's the number of teen suicides seems to be increasing. Here take a look:
http://http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/files/SuicideTrends.ppt
Why do you think that is?
I stated from the 1990's.
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I find it interesting that suicide rates, in general and especially younger people, have been declining since the 1990's. I wonder what is driving this? More options exist now for people who previously would feel trapped? Medication is more effective? Better treatment options?
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Actually Whooter, you're incorrect. Since the early 2000's the number of teen suicides seems to be increasing. Here take a look:
http://http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/files/SuicideTrends.ppt
Why do you think that is?
I stated from the 1990's.
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Yet the number of teen suicides has been on the increase since the early 2000's, so you remain incorrect. So I'm curious as to why the numbers have been increasing. Do you feel it has anything to do with ineffective treatment methods.
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Yet the number of teen suicides has been on the increase since the early 2000's, so you remain incorrect. So I'm curious as to why the numbers have been increasing. Do you feel it has anything to do with ineffective treatment methods.
The link you provided shows a steady decline in suicides since the 1990's, as I have stated. In recent years (early 2000's) the rate of decline has stalled and has started to edge up (up to 2004), as you have stated. I am not sure what is driving these up and down trends. There have been many medications released over the past several decades to try and address depression and anxiety in youth, the therapeutic boarding school industry has expanded over the past several decades.
Personally I do not know what drives these trends. The stalled decrease and edging up in the early 2000's could be due to the problems we are seeing overseas and at home since 911, the "long term" ineffectiveness of medicating our youth, the quick expansion of programs may have watered down their effectiveness.
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I agree that you were incorrect. My feeling is that the problem stems from a number of things. Kids seem to be taking on adult issues sooner and sooner whether they are equiped to handle them or not. What are the trends for drug use in teens now days?