Fornits

Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: none-ya on September 23, 2010, 07:27:58 PM

Title: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: none-ya on September 23, 2010, 07:27:58 PM
Quote
Whooter wrote;
"If someone is raped in a McDonalds that doesn't make all McDonalds abusive. Do you see what I mean?"


That's a ridiculous comparison.  Mcdonalds is responsible to providing a safe eating enviorment.They spend plenty on security and insurance to cover thier asses. Even though thier menu is a little on the tough love side is another story!
Title: Re: ? is Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Whooter on September 23, 2010, 07:56:04 PM
Quote from: "none-ya"
Quote
Whooter wrote;
"If someone is raped in a McDonalds that doesn't make all McDonalds abusive. Do you see what I mean?"


That's a ridiculous comparison.  Mcdonalds is responsible to providing a safe eating enviorment.They spend plenty on security and insurance to cover thier asses. Even though thier menu is a little on the tough love side is another story!


McDonalds spends very little on Security and their background checks are minimal.  How many times do you see security detail inside McDonalds.  Ronald isnt exactly a black belt.  You mention insurance,  they spend plenty on insurance to offset the lawsuits that are brought against them.  Paying high premiums doesnt equate to safety, None-ya, its just the opposite.



...
Title: Re: ? is Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Hedge on September 23, 2010, 08:34:01 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "none-ya"
Quote
Whooter wrote;
"If someone is raped in a McDonalds that doesn't make all McDonalds abusive. Do you see what I mean?"


That's a ridiculous comparison.  Mcdonalds is responsible to providing a safe eating enviorment.They spend plenty on security and insurance to cover thier asses. Even though thier menu is a little on the tough love side is another story!


McDonalds spends very little on Security and their background checks are minimal.  How many times do you see security detail inside McDonalds.  Ronald isnt exactly a black belt.  You mention insurance,  they spend plenty on insurance to offset the lawsuits that are brought against them.  Paying high premiums doesnt equate to safety, None-ya, its just the opposite.



...

McDonalds isn't in charge of providing adequate care and education to adolescents, however.

If I agree to petsit your dog, and then beat it or starve it, I am responsible for the harm done to that dog because I caused it directly.

If I agree to petsit your dog, and let my cousin beat it or starve it with my knowledge, I am responsible for the harm done to that dog because it was my responsibility to prevent it.

In that way, facilities are responsible for the abuse that goes on in them. I don't know how it could be more simple.
Title: Re: ? is Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: psy on September 23, 2010, 10:29:19 PM
Quote from: "Hedge"
If I agree to petsit your dog, and let my cousin beat it or starve it with my knowledge, I am responsible for the harm done to that dog because it was my responsibility to prevent it.

Very difficult to prove.
Title: Re: ? is Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Maximilian on September 24, 2010, 02:35:09 PM
Quote from: "Hedge"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "none-ya"
Quote
Whooter wrote;
"If someone is raped in a McDonalds that doesn't make all McDonalds abusive. Do you see what I mean?"


That's a ridiculous comparison.  Mcdonalds is responsible to providing a safe eating enviorment.They spend plenty on security and insurance to cover thier asses. Even though thier menu is a little on the tough love side is another story!


McDonalds spends very little on Security and their background checks are minimal.  How many times do you see security detail inside McDonalds.  Ronald isnt exactly a black belt.  You mention insurance,  they spend plenty on insurance to offset the lawsuits that are brought against them.  Paying high premiums doesnt equate to safety, None-ya, its just the opposite.



...

McDonalds isn't in charge of providing adequate care and education to adolescents, however.

If I agree to petsit your dog, and then beat it or starve it, I am responsible for the harm done to that dog because I caused it directly.

If I agree to petsit your dog, and let my cousin beat it or starve it with my knowledge, I am responsible for the harm done to that dog because it was my responsibility to prevent it.

In that way, facilities are responsible for the abuse that goes on in them. I don't know how it could be more simple.

If you were beat and starved in a program, then call the cops. Tell them the staff member's name who beat you and starved you, and have them charged with aggravated assault on a minor. The punishment would likely involve jail time, wouldn't that be sweet justice? Oh but wait. The police ask for pesky things like evidence, witness statements, and corroboration. Shucks. Guess that's why nobody here calls the cops on all the "abuse" going on right now in programs across the country, right? Well, at least we have the internet, where we can say whatever we want, condemn whoever we want and nobody asks us for proof.
Title: Re: ? is Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Anne Bonney on September 24, 2010, 02:38:22 PM
Quote from: "Maximilian"

If you were beat and starved in a program, then call the cops. Tell them the staff member's name who beat you and starved you, and have them charged with aggravated assault on a minor.

The statute of limitations has run out in my case.  And most of these places don't provide access to a telephone or even a hotline to report abuse, as hospitals are required to. (Whooter thinks having an abuse hotline in programs is a bad idea because the hotline operator might talk dirty to the kids) Even if the kid does speak up, they're met with the same derisiveness that you spew out here.  That abuse didn't really happen, that it's just a disgruntled druggie kid, that the program was just trying to help etc.
Title: Re: ? is Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Dr Fucktard on September 24, 2010, 02:58:55 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
That abuse didn't really happen, that it's just a disgruntled druggie kid, that the program was just trying to help etc.
Good to know you're beginning to see things my way, Miss Bonney...
Title: Re: ? is Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Anne Bonney on September 24, 2010, 04:29:01 PM
Quote from: "Dr Fucktard"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
That abuse didn't really happen, that it's just a disgruntled druggie kid, that the program was just trying to help etc.
Good to know you're beginning to see things my way, Miss Bonney...

 :rofl:


Blow it out your cupola Virgil.
Title: Re: ? is Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Maximilian on September 24, 2010, 04:41:35 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
The statute of limitations has run out in my case.  


Let me guess. The "mind control" is programmed to expire exactly after the statute of limitations of abuse, right? How devilishly clever of the programs.
Title: Re: ? is Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Anne Bonney on September 24, 2010, 04:49:56 PM
Quote from: "Maximilian"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
The statute of limitations has run out in my case.  


Let me guess. The "mind control" is programmed to expire exactly after the statute of limitations of abuse, right? How devilishly clever of the programs.

Nah, it took me quite a bit longer. It's a shame too because 2 of the people I was in there with did sue for abuse and each won 6 figure judgments.  Judgments, not settlements.

Then Straight & Newton were closed because of all the abuse.
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: none-ya on September 24, 2010, 06:36:59 PM
Please excuse me. Not wanting to disrupt the flow here, but I don't understand how I started this theead? No I did not.
The first post on here is me replying to whooter from another thread, That is now gone?
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Samara on September 24, 2010, 06:46:42 PM
Uneffingbelievable, M. You know damn well no one could complain because staff just called you a liar and said that is why you were in the program. And mental and emotional abuse? Hard to prove. Plus, we were not who we are today - able to sift through all the BS as easily.  We were trying to survive. And for many of us, that meant buying in. But if you dared to complain, your ass was grass for the rest of your tenure. I kept my lips zipped and stayed under the radar. Anyone who didn't was quashed hard and fast.  

I mean come on how hard is to believe, M? The whole of No Ko is brainwashed.

You are a parent. I don't say that because of your pro program sympathies. I say it because everything feels off about how you describe your experiences. Everything.
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: none-ya on September 24, 2010, 06:56:36 PM
Quote
Samara wrote;
"You are a parent. I don't say that because of your pro program sympathies. I say it because everything feels off about how you describe your experiences. Everything."


I'm glad to see that I'm  not the only one to see this.
Not only a parent, but sombody's MOTHER!
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: shaggys on September 24, 2010, 07:05:25 PM
I believe None-Ya, Froderik, Psy and others here are entirely correct in their analysis of the max/suckit situation.  She is most likely a program parent. I will operate under this assumption when replying to her posts from now on.
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: none-ya on September 24, 2010, 07:42:35 PM
[attachment=0:1js811g6]MAX.jpg[/attachment:1js811g6]
Title: Re: ? is Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Whooter on September 24, 2010, 07:50:11 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Whooter thinks having an abuse hotline in programs is a bad idea because the hotline operator might talk dirty to the kids.

Anne you admitted yourself here on fornits, many times, that programs are helpful in most cases and that you had embellished many of the events that you claim occurred inside the program.



...
Title: Re: ? is Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: DannyB II on September 24, 2010, 09:20:17 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Maximilian"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
The statute of limitations has run out in my case.  


Let me guess. The "mind control" is programmed to expire exactly after the statute of limitations of abuse, right? How devilishly clever of the programs.

Nah, it took me quite a bit longer. It's a shame too because 2 of the people I was in there with did sue for abuse and each won 6 figure judgments.  Judgments, not settlements.

Then Straight & Newton were closed because of all the abuse.

Well, they don't factor in all the drugs and alcohol they could not wait to consume once they got out, the reckless lifestyle they chose to live, all conducive to extending the months and years before they were aware of what exactly happened in that T/C they were in. So ya, the statue of limitations ran out.

In many cases students, residents or programmies just picked up with their reckless lifestyle they were living before they got to their perspective programs. Which goes to show ya, for many of us the programs we were in had very little effect on us either way. Does this mean the programs were not abusive, I am not saying that.
Title: Re: ? is Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Shadyacres on September 24, 2010, 09:34:26 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Whooter thinks having an abuse hotline in programs is a bad idea because the hotline operator might talk dirty to the kids.

Anne you admitted yourself here on fornits, many times, that programs are helpful in most cases and that you had embellished many of the events that you claim occurred inside the program.



...


If I remember correctly Anne was in Straight Inc., which was definitely NOT helpful in most cases.  And, having been in a nearly identical spinoff program I find it hard to believe that she needed to embellish anything.
Title: Re: ? is Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: DannyB II on September 24, 2010, 09:44:48 PM
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Whooter thinks having an abuse hotline in programs is a bad idea because the hotline operator might talk dirty to the kids.

Anne you admitted yourself here on fornits, many times, that programs are helpful in most cases and that you had embellished many of the events that you claim occurred inside the program.



...


If I remember correctly Anne was in Straight Inc., which was definitely NOT helpful in most cases.  And, having been in a nearly identical spinoff program I find it hard to believe that she needed to embellish anything.

We have all embellished our experiences.
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Shadyacres on September 24, 2010, 09:47:33 PM
I haven't, was I supposed to?
Title: Re: ? is Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Whooter on September 24, 2010, 10:00:07 PM
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Whooter thinks having an abuse hotline in programs is a bad idea because the hotline operator might talk dirty to the kids.

Anne you admitted yourself here on fornits, many times, that programs are helpful in most cases and that you had embellished many of the events that you claim occurred inside the program.



...


If I remember correctly Anne was in Straight Inc., which was definitely NOT helpful in most cases.  And, having been in a nearly identical spinoff program I find it hard to believe that she needed to embellish anything.


Well maybe sometimes in the heat of an argument or discussion things can be said to exaggerate your point, who knows.  She is human and I dont judge her harshly for it.



...
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: DannyB II on September 24, 2010, 10:07:55 PM
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
I haven't, was I supposed to?

Shady, com'on.....not even a little, when telling a story.
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Ursus on September 25, 2010, 10:09:31 AM
Quote from: "none-ya"
Please excuse me. Not wanting to disrupt the flow here, but I don't understand how I started this theead? No I did not.
The first post on here is me replying to whooter from another thread, That is now gone?
It looks like Psy thought addressing Whooter's McDonalds comment was "off-topic" and hence ... split the thread.

The original thread is still around, here: ? is Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=31232)
Title: Whooter's trolling outta his cupola
Post by: Ursus on September 25, 2010, 10:16:45 AM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Whooter thinks having an abuse hotline in programs is a bad idea because the hotline operator might talk dirty to the kids.
Anne you admitted yourself here on fornits, many times, that programs are helpful in most cases and that you had embellished many of the events that you claim occurred inside the program.
Link, please?

I do not recall Anne saying that "programs are helpful in most cases." Nor do I recall her "embellishing" any events from program.
Title: Re: Whooter's trolling outta his cupola
Post by: Froderik on September 25, 2010, 10:24:44 AM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Whooter thinks having an abuse hotline in programs is a bad idea because the hotline operator might talk dirty to the kids.
Anne you admitted yourself here on fornits, many times, that programs are helpful in most cases and that you had embellished many of the events that you claim occurred inside the program.
Link, please?

I do not recall Anne saying that "programs are helpful in most cases." Nor do I recall her "embellishing" any events from program.

Me neither.. that statement was complete fabrication.....maybe Whooter could be banned for that?
Title: Danny's embellishments
Post by: Ursus on September 25, 2010, 10:45:35 AM
Quote from: "Froderik"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Whooter thinks having an abuse hotline in programs is a bad idea because the hotline operator might talk dirty to the kids.
Anne you admitted yourself here on fornits, many times, that programs are helpful in most cases and that you had embellished many of the events that you claim occurred inside the program.
Link, please?

I do not recall Anne saying that "programs are helpful in most cases." Nor do I recall her "embellishing" any events from program.
Me neither.. that statement was complete fabrication.....maybe Whooter could be banned for that?
Speaking of "fabrications," in a loose interpretation of the word:

Quote from: "DannyB II"
We have all embellished our experiences.
Speak for yourself, DannyB. I don't think any one of us is in the position to speak for every one of us here, unless you're talking 'bout the physical necessity of elimination, fecestically speaking.  :D

Lemme put it this way: You certainly do not speak for me.
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Ursus on September 25, 2010, 11:11:10 AM
Quote from: "Samara"
Quote from: "Maximilian"
If you were beat and starved in a program, then call the cops. Tell them the staff member's name who beat you and starved you, and have them charged with aggravated assault on a minor. The punishment would likely involve jail time, wouldn't that be sweet justice? Oh but wait. The police ask for pesky things like evidence, witness statements, and corroboration. Shucks. Guess that's why nobody here calls the cops on all the "abuse" going on right now in programs across the country, right? Well, at least we have the internet, where we can say whatever we want, condemn whoever we want and nobody asks us for proof.
Uneffingbelievable, M. You know damn well no one could complain because staff just called you a liar and said that is why you were in the program. And mental and emotional abuse? Hard to prove. Plus, we were not who we are today - able to sift through all the BS as easily. We were trying to survive. And for many of us, that meant buying in. But if you dared to complain, your ass was grass for the rest of your tenure. I kept my lips zipped and stayed under the radar. Anyone who didn't was quashed hard and fast.

I mean come on how hard is to believe, M? The whole of No Ko is brainwashed.
Plus, there was the whole practice of the compartmentalization of information. Even amongst staff. The do-gooder types at Hyde, who'd get attracted or talked into such a job based on their desire to "help kids" and "make a difference," would often be completely out of the loop as far as some of the more nefarious goings on were concerned. I imagine, most still are.

Sometimes, in cases of egregious abuse even beyond the pale of the systemic mindfuckery everyone was subjected to, Hyde would create its own version of events, squelch the exchange of information, and put out rumors disparaging the victim, e.g., that the event "never happened," and/or that the victim was exaggerating or "unstable." Folks wouldn't know what to believe.
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Maximilian on September 25, 2010, 11:28:21 AM
Quote from: "Samara"
Uneffingbelievable, M. You know damn well no one could complain because staff just called you a liar and said that is why you were in the program. And mental and emotional abuse? Hard to prove. Plus, we were not who we are today - able to sift through all the BS as easily.  We were trying to survive. And for many of us, that meant buying in. But if you dared to complain, your ass was grass for the rest of your tenure. I kept my lips zipped and stayed under the radar. Anyone who didn't was quashed hard and fast.  

I mean come on how hard is to believe, M? The whole of No Ko is brainwashed.

You are a parent. I don't say that because of your pro program sympathies. I say it because everything feels off about how you describe your experiences. Everything.


You say "we were trying to survive". How many kids did the program you were in actually kill? It sounds really dangerous the way you describe it, you sound lucky to be alive. I'm assuming the mortality rate was at least 50% then?

I didn't zip my lips or stay under the radar, I always said what I thought even if it made people angry, hey, sort of like fornits. But I was never "quashed hard and fast", and I was never abused mentally or emotionally or whatever people here call it. Just because I'm not willing to play the pity me, I'm a victim card like most posters here doesn't mean I didn't go to a program. It means that not everyone who goes to a supposedly abusive program (as described here) sees it that way. But if it makes people here feel better to assume I'm a program mother, knock yourself out. Denying reality seems to be integral to the fornits ideology, so I'm not surprised one bit.
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: none-ya on September 25, 2010, 11:47:45 AM
You know they say that Max is a bad mother(shut your mouth)
Hey, I'm just talkin' about Max.
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Ursus on September 25, 2010, 11:58:37 AM
Quote from: "Maximilian"
Quote from: "Samara"
Uneffingbelievable, M. You know damn well no one could complain because staff just called you a liar and said that is why you were in the program. And mental and emotional abuse? Hard to prove. Plus, we were not who we are today - able to sift through all the BS as easily.  We were trying to survive. And for many of us, that meant buying in. But if you dared to complain, your ass was grass for the rest of your tenure. I kept my lips zipped and stayed under the radar. Anyone who didn't was quashed hard and fast.  

I mean come on how hard is to believe, M? The whole of No Ko is brainwashed.

You are a parent. I don't say that because of your pro program sympathies. I say it because everything feels off about how you describe your experiences. Everything.
You say "we were trying to survive". How many kids did the program you were in actually kill? It sounds really dangerous the way you describe it, you sound lucky to be alive. I'm assuming the mortality rate was at least 50% then?

I didn't zip my lips or stay under the radar, I always said what I thought even if it made people angry, hey, sort of like fornits. But I was never "quashed hard and fast", and I was never abused mentally or emotionally or whatever people here call it. Just because I'm not willing to play the pity me, I'm a victim card like most posters here doesn't mean I didn't go to a program. It means that not everyone who goes to a supposedly abusive program (as described here) sees it that way. But if it makes people here feel better to assume I'm a program mother, knock yourself out. Denying reality seems to be integral to the fornits ideology, so I'm not surprised one bit.
To *my* mind, and I may very well be reading material into this that is not there, Samara is not just talking about physical survival, but emotional and psychological survival as well. And, yeah, a lot of kids did not make it as far as the latter is concerned.

One thing programs are particularly good at crippling, despite glowing marketing propaganda to the contrary, is even sub-ordinary development of kids' capacities for mercy and empathy. I would venture that you seem to have been especially hard hit in this general area.
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: RobertBruce on September 25, 2010, 01:54:11 PM
The ability of kids to report abuse is one more reason why so many of these places do all they can to avoid proper licensure and state oversight. Licensed properly they are required to not only have a hotline made available to the kids at any time to report abuse, but a full time state employee who serves the same function. Again, this is why they isolate kids, restrict outside communication and shuttle kids off anytime there is a major altercation. Especially the physical ones. Whenever fellow inmates would get into a fight, the issue was dealt with on campus. Whenever a fight broke out between inmates, and a staffer the kid got sent out in the woods.

About my fourth or fifth month in I told one of the counselors exactly where he could go and how to get there. Upon my walking away and having my back towards him he eloquently responded by kicking me in the small of my back. I'm sure that's theraputic somewhere. In any event, it wasn't my fault that he bit off more than he could chew and ended up receiving from me the beat down of his life. While he was crying over his broken teeth and nose swearing he would sue my parents I was told to pack my things as I was going camping for quite awhile. They sent me out into the woods immediatly for several weeks, all in an effort to keep me from relaying what had happened to either my parents or the authorities. I saw the same thing happen numerous times for the exact same reasons.

So tell me Max, where in that situation was I given the opportunity to contact the authorities?
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Maximilian on September 25, 2010, 01:59:51 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
To *my* mind, and I may very well be reading material into this that is not there, Samara is not just talking about physical survival, but emotional and psychological survival as well. And, yeah, a lot of kids did not make it as far as the latter is concerned.

One thing programs are particularly good at crippling, despite glowing marketing propaganda to the contrary, is even sub-ordinary development of kids' capacities for mercy and empathy. I would venture that you seem to have been especially hard hit in this general area.

You're completely right, Ursus. When I came to fornits and explained my positions I was met with nothing but empathy, people talked about how great it was, that even though they had negative experiences, they were pleased that I had a positive one. I was told, kindly, maturely, and politely that they understood why I say the program saved my life, and read my experiences and opinions and understand what I say, and accept it as accurate of my own interpretation of my own life. Oh wait, that's not right, fornits is filled with the most close minded, unempathetical, group thinkers I've ever encountered. Where outside thought is met with insults, intimidation, conspiracy theories and childish pictures. But surely when fornits stalks people in real life and posts their info, and posts pictures and personal information of staff, they are exercising their mercy, right? I suggest that you, and every other extremist anti program poster here take a little of their own empathy medicine, and look at what happened through the perspective of your parents, teachers, and the program staff you condemn without a second thought.
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Maximilian on September 25, 2010, 02:05:49 PM
Quote from: "RobertBruce"
Upon my walking away and having my back towards him he eloquently responded by kicking me in the small of my back. I'm sure that's theraputic somewhere. In any event, it wasn't my fault that he bit off more than he could chew and ended up receiving from me the beat down of his life.

I've read enough internet tough guy stories to know when I'm being lied to. Nice attempt at portraying yourself as a victim without the necessary emasculation. I think you'd do better just to say you got beat up and cried, and wrote your mom a letter, and asked her to take you home, but she said no. That way you can make people hate program staff, and program parents all in one fell swoop. Two birds with one stone. But with this bit of program fiction you've created, you come off as a troubled teenager who deserved to be in a program, and the staff a victim of your anger issues. In the end, it makes me empathize with your parents for sending you to a program. I suggest a rewrite.
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: RobertBruce on September 25, 2010, 02:42:01 PM
I find it ironic that you can speak of fabricating stories given that you've shown yourself to be a verifiable liar already on here. That and your constant admonishments of others claiming that they're crying and playing the victim card. If you're not lying about being blackmailed you're crying about your treatment on fornits,

Quote
"Waaaahh people on fornits picked me! Why aren't they nice?"


Of course ignoring the fact that you've dismissed peoples stories while crying and claiming you've received the same treatment. Of course you won't be up front about your experiences or even where you were, plus we already know you're a liar so there's probably good reason to.

You're welcome to disbelieve my story if you like. Child abuse advocates like yourself always dismiss blatent abuse stories because it highlights the institutionalized forms of abuse going on in these places that you seem to love and adore so much.

In the meantime you're welcome to do a little back reading son. I've made mention of that particular story on many occasions on various threads. A staffer thought he could handle beating up on a kid, and ended up getting his teeth kicked in. They tried to make me apologize but I couldn't for the life of me figure out what for. Maybe you could explain it? While you're doing that I wonder if you could go a little more into why I placed at HLA. You seem to think you know, so I'd appreciate any insight you can offer. That is of course if you can take time off from your hobby of reading internet tough guy stories.  :deal:


Quote
I've read enough internet tough guy stories to know when I'm being lied to. Nice attempt at portraying yourself as a victim without the necessary emasculation. I think you'd do better just to say you got beat up and cried, and wrote your mom a letter, and asked her to take you home, but she said no. That way you can make people hate program staff, and program parents all in one fell swoop. Two birds with one stone. But with this bit of program fiction you've created, you come off as a troubled teenager who deserved to be in a program, and the staff a victim of your anger issues. In the end, it makes me empathize with your parents for sending you to a program. I suggest a rewrite.
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Whooter on September 25, 2010, 02:49:33 PM
Quote from: "RobertBruce"
About my fourth or fifth month in ....
 lol
(http://http://www.theschoolforgods.com/files/pinocchio1.gif)



...
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Maximilian on September 25, 2010, 02:56:46 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "RobertBruce"
About my fourth or fifth month in ....
 lol
(http://http://www.theschoolforgods.com/files/pinocchio1.gif)



...

Yeah it's fairly obvious this robertbruce poster is full of it. I put them on ignore, not even worth the time reading their posts.
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: RobertBruce on September 25, 2010, 03:06:45 PM
Yet neither one of you seem to be able to either back up your claims, ever. Let me know if you work up the courage. If not, laughing at you never stops getting old.


Now I know you both enjoy derailing pertinant topics in an effort to keep good information down. You won't be doing that with this one. Stay on topic or I'll ask Psy to ban you both. Not that either one of you contributes anything worth paying attention to.
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: shaggys on September 25, 2010, 04:21:50 PM
At least part of the responsibility for abuse in these programs is due to program parents like Max/Suckit and Whooter who continue to deny what happens at these places in an attempt to ease their own guilt over having harmed their children in them. Max/suckit obviously caused great harm to her kids by having them placed in a abusive situation. I just wish she would apolagize to her kid and move on instead of coming here to play games.
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: RobertBruce on September 25, 2010, 04:29:22 PM
She never will. Because she is incapable of understanding what abuse really is, she doesn't view the abuse she passes onto her own children as being a problem. She probably just admonishes her kids further and tells them to stop crying. Of course she probably does while crying herself about how mean they are to her.
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: shaggys on September 25, 2010, 04:44:13 PM
Quote from: "RobertBruce"
She never will. Because she is incapable of understanding what abuse really is, she doesn't view the abuse she passes onto her own children as being a problem. She probably just admonishes her kids further and tells them to stop crying. Of course she probably does while crying herself about how mean they are to her.

Yeah in a previous post she boasted of her belief that mental, emotional and verbal abuse were not "real" abuse at all. One of the most disturbing posts ever on Fornits by a program parent.
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Whooter on September 25, 2010, 06:01:41 PM
Quote from: "RobertBruce"
Oh, I've decided I'm going to email your sister Catharine next. You've got about 22 hours left to either back up your claim, or acknowlege you made it up.

Look, Bruce, if you dont keep these threats and attacks in the "Open free for all" thread, psy is going to call  you out.

Its funny how everytime I catch Bruce exaggerating or lying (and call him on it) he starts sending out emails to people or trying to Blackmail me into backing up his lies.

"Okay whooter thats it.  I am going to email your mother unless you start agreeing with me!!"  lol



...
Title: Ursus's relentless embellishments or could I say distortions
Post by: DannyB II on September 25, 2010, 06:02:45 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Whooter thinks having an abuse hotline in programs is a bad idea because the hotline operator might talk dirty to the kids.
Anne you admitted yourself here on fornits, many times, that programs are helpful in most cases and that you had embellished many of the events that you claim occurred inside the program.
Link, please?

I do not recall Anne saying that "programs are helpful in most cases." Nor do I recall her "embellishing" any events from program.

Ursus, give it a rest and worry about your posts.
Title: Re: Danny's embellishments
Post by: DannyB II on September 25, 2010, 06:05:00 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Froderik"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Whooter thinks having an abuse hotline in programs is a bad idea because the hotline operator might talk dirty to the kids.
Anne you admitted yourself here on fornits, many times, that programs are helpful in most cases and that you had embellished many of the events that you claim occurred inside the program.
Link, please?

I do not recall Anne saying that "programs are helpful in most cases." Nor do I recall her "embellishing" any events from program.
Me neither.. that statement was complete fabrication.....maybe Whooter could be banned for that?
Speaking of "fabrications," in a loose interpretation of the word:

Quote from: "DannyB II"
We have all embellished our experiences.
Speak for yourself, DannyB. I don't think any one of us is in the position to speak for every one of us here, unless you're talking 'bout the physical necessity of elimination, fecestically speaking.  :D

Lemme put it this way: You certainly do not speak for me.


Yeah, I am most definitely speaking for you, as a matter of fact you were tops on the list.
Title: Re: Whooter's trolling outta his cupola
Post by: Whooter on September 25, 2010, 06:10:31 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Whooter thinks having an abuse hotline in programs is a bad idea because the hotline operator might talk dirty to the kids.

Link, please?

I dont believe she has a link, Ursus.  I remember the conversation well and she just made this up.  I dont know why she says things like this.



...
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: DannyB II on September 25, 2010, 06:11:14 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Samara"
Quote from: "Maximilian"
If you were beat and starved in a program, then call the cops. Tell them the staff member's name who beat you and starved you, and have them charged with aggravated assault on a minor. The punishment would likely involve jail time, wouldn't that be sweet justice? Oh but wait. The police ask for pesky things like evidence, witness statements, and corroboration. Shucks. Guess that's why nobody here calls the cops on all the "abuse" going on right now in programs across the country, right? Well, at least we have the internet, where we can say whatever we want, condemn whoever we want and nobody asks us for proof.
Uneffingbelievable, M. You know damn well no one could complain because staff just called you a liar and said that is why you were in the program. And mental and emotional abuse? Hard to prove. Plus, we were not who we are today - able to sift through all the BS as easily. We were trying to survive. And for many of us, that meant buying in. But if you dared to complain, your ass was grass for the rest of your tenure. I kept my lips zipped and stayed under the radar. Anyone who didn't was quashed hard and fast.

I mean come on how hard is to believe, M? The whole of No Ko is brainwashed.
Plus, there was the whole practice of the compartmentalization of information. Even amongst staff. The do-gooder types at Hyde, who'd get attracted or talked into such a job based on their desire to "help kids" and "make a difference," would often be completely out of the loop as far as some of the more nefarious goings on were concerned. I imagine, most still are.

Sometimes, in cases of egregious abuse even beyond the pale of the systemic mindfuckery everyone was subjected to, Hyde would create its own version of events, squelch the exchange of information, and put out rumors disparaging the victim, e.g., that the event "never happened," and/or that the victim was exaggerating or "unstable." Folks wouldn't know what to believe.


Yep, exactly how you see it, ya got any links, to back up these hair brained ideas about Hyde.
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: DannyB II on September 25, 2010, 06:15:28 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Maximilian"
Quote from: "Samara"
Uneffingbelievable, M. You know damn well no one could complain because staff just called you a liar and said that is why you were in the program. And mental and emotional abuse? Hard to prove. Plus, we were not who we are today - able to sift through all the BS as easily.  We were trying to survive. And for many of us, that meant buying in. But if you dared to complain, your ass was grass for the rest of your tenure. I kept my lips zipped and stayed under the radar. Anyone who didn't was quashed hard and fast.  

I mean come on how hard is to believe, M? The whole of No Ko is brainwashed.

You are a parent. I don't say that because of your pro program sympathies. I say it because everything feels off about how you describe your experiences. Everything.
You say "we were trying to survive". How many kids did the program you were in actually kill? It sounds really dangerous the way you describe it, you sound lucky to be alive. I'm assuming the mortality rate was at least 50% then?

I didn't zip my lips or stay under the radar, I always said what I thought even if it made people angry, hey, sort of like fornits. But I was never "quashed hard and fast", and I was never abused mentally or emotionally or whatever people here call it. Just because I'm not willing to play the pity me, I'm a victim card like most posters here doesn't mean I didn't go to a program. It means that not everyone who goes to a supposedly abusive program (as described here) sees it that way. But if it makes people here feel better to assume I'm a program mother, knock yourself out. Denying reality seems to be integral to the fornits ideology, so I'm not surprised one bit.
To *my* mind, and I may very well be reading material into this that is not there, Samara is not just talking about physical survival, but emotional and psychological survival as well. And, yeah, a lot of kids did not make it as far as the latter is concerned.

One thing programs are particularly good at crippling, despite glowing marketing propaganda to the contrary, is even sub-ordinary development of kids' capacities for mercy and empathy. I would venture that you seem to have been especially hard hit in this general area.

Hey Ursus, why don't you do us all a favor and let the poster another is conversioning with, respond. Then we do not have to worry whether you are correctly rebutting or not.
To say it another way, mind your business and let Samara respond.
Title: Re: Whooter's trolling outta his cupola
Post by: RobertBruce on September 25, 2010, 07:09:05 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Whooter thinks having an abuse hotline in programs is a bad idea because the hotline operator might talk dirty to the kids.

Link, please?

I dont believe she has a link, Ursus.  I remember the conversation well and she just made this up.  I dont know why she says things like this.



...


Yet another one of John Reuben's lies to add to the list:

Quote
Report this postReply with quoteAcademy at Swift River - Split from TTI
by TheWho » Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:53 pm

Now, let's examine this, Who: Let's say, for argument's sake that a kid's very own counselor sexually abuses him/her. ASR's plan, as you verified with them like I did, is to have that child report the abuse directly to the person that perpetrated it.

This is downright scary and paves the road for child abuse. I would avoid this facility at all costs. It's dangerous!

Sure, DJ, of course it is possible. The guy on the abuse hot line could talk dirty to the kids also, but it is highly unlikely. The hot line never helped the kids who were raped by their teacher at public school, so, the way I see it, you need to do 2 things to convince us one is needed:

1. Determine if the law requires a “Hot Line” to be installed in the school.

2. How effective is this hot line in keeping kids safe.

http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=21256&p=255763&hilit=+hotline#p255754



There we have Whooter John Reuben once again attempting to lie about his own past. Such a coward he's afraid to stand behind his own comments. What a sad little life you must lead John.
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: RobertBruce on September 25, 2010, 07:16:31 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "RobertBruce"
Oh, I've decided I'm going to email your sister Catharine next. You've got about 22 hours left to either back up your claim, or acknowlege you made it up.

Look, Bruce, if you dont keep these threats and attacks in the "Open free for all" thread, psy is going to call  you out.

Its funny how everytime I catch Bruce exaggerating or lying (and call him on it) he starts sending out emails to people or trying to Blackmail me into backing up his lies.

"Okay whooter thats it.  I am going to email your mother unless you start agreeing with me!!"  lol



...


I thought your mother was dead John? If she's still alive I'll start seeking out her email info immediatly in order to add to the list, just in case you decide you can't back up your claims, but are still too afraid to admit you lied.

Meanwhile I'll again remind you to stay on topic, we're talking about institutionalized abuse in this industry you make your living off of. I'm not sure why you want to keep bringing up the fact that you lied about your claims regarding me, and are too afraid to admit to. Why would you want to highlight your own cowardice John? Why don't you send me another PM and we can talk about it over there. There's no reason for you to muck up the forums with your issues.

 
Now then back to the topic,  do you still believe there is a legitimate reason for keeping kids from having access to a hotline?
Title: Re: Whooter's trolling outta his cupola
Post by: Whooter on September 25, 2010, 07:33:23 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"

Sure, DJ, of course it is possible. The guy on the abuse hot line could talk dirty to the kids also, but it is highly unlikely. The hot line never helped the kids who were raped by their teacher at public school, so, the way I see it, you need to do 2 things to convince us one is needed:

1. Determine if the law requires a “Hot Line” to be installed in the school.

2. How effective is this hot line in keeping kids safe.

http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=21256&p=255763&hilit=+hotline#p255754

Thank you for finding this.  No where does it say that I think a hotline is a bad idea.  There is no guarantee that kids will remain safe anywhere.  The hotline trainers could have issues and hire the wrong people like programs can.

So, as I see it 2 things need to occur:

1. Determine if the law requires a “Hot Line” to be installed in the school.

2. How effective is this hot line in keeping kids safe.



...
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Samara on September 25, 2010, 07:38:18 PM
Well, Max I guess your humility act has worn off and you are back to being your sanctimonious self insisting there is no program abuse and anyone who disagrees is a self pitying fool.

Look, I don't give a shit about what happened to me 20 years ago - it's over and done. (Other than the nightmares and residual affects.) I do give a shit that it still happens.

My problem with programs is that once you are in, you have no credibility. If you have no credibility, you have no access to authentic advocacy, and you sure as hell can't take genuine accountability for your life's direction.  Programs have too much power to manipulate not only your parents, but your own damn sense of self.  

If you want to believe in your Program Jesus, that's fine.  But you sure as hell don't have any right to tell anyone else that our naked scaly assed Emperor does in fact wear clothes.

And if you really were a program kid -and I am 100% certain you are not, Sweet Canadian - I understand why you think you needed Program Jesus.  Afterall, you basically described yourself as a liar, thief, master manipulator, and bullshit artist. But I can tell you that the vast majority of kids I knew were neither addicts nor Satan incarnate and did not need to be warehoused in some Stepford kid factory.
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Samara on September 25, 2010, 07:42:41 PM
A hotline won't do Jack shit. The program will still lie about the kid.  Plus, an unattended hotline would be flooded with calls ranging from pranks to the serious. And emotional/mental/and psychological abuse does not have obvious scars. A kid would not be pulled out pending that type of he said-they said investigation. In the mean time, life would be hell for that kid.
Title: Re: Whooter's trolling outta his cupola
Post by: Ursus on September 25, 2010, 07:45:36 PM
Quote from: "RobertBruce"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Whooter thinks having an abuse hotline in programs is a bad idea because the hotline operator might talk dirty to the kids.
Link, please?
I dont believe she has a link, Ursus.  I remember the conversation well and she just made this up.  I dont know why she says things like this.
Yet another one of John Reuben's lies to add to the list:

Quote
Report this postReply with quoteAcademy at Swift River - Split from TTI
by TheWho » Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:53 pm

Now, let's examine this, Who: Let's say, for argument's sake that a kid's very own counselor sexually abuses him/her. ASR's plan, as you verified with them like I did, is to have that child report the abuse directly to the person that perpetrated it.

This is downright scary and paves the road for child abuse. I would avoid this facility at all costs. It's dangerous!

Sure, DJ, of course it is possible. The guy on the abuse hot line could talk dirty to the kids also, but it is highly unlikely. The hot line never helped the kids who were raped by their teacher at public school, so, the way I see it, you need to do 2 things to convince us one is needed:

1. Determine if the law requires a “Hot Line” to be installed in the school.

2. How effective is this hot line in keeping kids safe.

http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=21256&p=255763&hilit=+hotline#p255754



There we have Whooter John Reuben once again attempting to lie about his own past. Such a coward he's afraid to stand behind his own comments. What a sad little life you must lead John.
Yup. I remember Whooter posting that.

Moreover, Whooter has, once again, misquoted me. He really does hate getting called out on bogus claims. Getting requests for links seems to really get under his skin. If past posting behavior will prove indicative to the present, I expect he will now misquote me, in short order, dozens of times.  :D

My post in that nest quoted above was originally posted (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=31238&start=15#p380351) in response to Whooter himself, requesting a link to his claim that Anne had "admitted ... here on fornits, many times, that programs are helpful in most cases and that [she] had embellished many of the events that [she] claims occurred inside the program."

It would appear that Whooter's claims re. Anne are a complete and utter fabrication, btw, as no one seems to have heard of such a thing.

Are these the kind of games that Whooter likes to play? Putting words in other posters' mouths and deliberate misquoting, all to cast aspersion and deflect focus?
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Ursus on September 25, 2010, 07:50:53 PM
Quote from: "Samara"
A hotline won't do Jack shit. The program will still lie about the kid.  Plus, an unattended hotline would be flooded with calls ranging from pranks to the serious. And emotional/mental/and psychological abuse does not have obvious scars. A kid would not be pulled out pending that type of he said-they said investigation. In the mean time, life would be hell for that kid.
The whole school would be rallied up against that kid, were that kid at Hyde. The condemnation would be palpable; you could cut it with a knife.
Title: Re: Whooter's trolling outta his cupola
Post by: Whooter on September 25, 2010, 07:52:31 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "RobertBruce"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Whooter thinks having an abuse hotline in programs is a bad idea because the hotline operator might talk dirty to the kids.
Link, please?
I dont believe she has a link, Ursus.  I remember the conversation well and she just made this up.  I dont know why she says things like this.
Yet another one of John Reuben's lies to add to the list:

Quote
Report this postReply with quoteAcademy at Swift River - Split from TTI
by TheWho » Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:53 pm

Now, let's examine this, Who: Let's say, for argument's sake that a kid's very own counselor sexually abuses him/her. ASR's plan, as you verified with them like I did, is to have that child report the abuse directly to the person that perpetrated it.

This is downright scary and paves the road for child abuse. I would avoid this facility at all costs. It's dangerous!

Sure, DJ, of course it is possible. The guy on the abuse hot line could talk dirty to the kids also, but it is highly unlikely. The hot line never helped the kids who were raped by their teacher at public school, so, the way I see it, you need to do 2 things to convince us one is needed:

1. Determine if the law requires a “Hot Line” to be installed in the school.

2. How effective is this hot line in keeping kids safe.

http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=21256&p=255763&hilit=+hotline#p255754



There we have Whooter John Reuben once again attempting to lie about his own past. Such a coward he's afraid to stand behind his own comments. What a sad little life you must lead John.
Yup. I remember Whooter posting that.

Moreover, Whooter has, once again, misquoted me. He really does hate getting called out on bogus claims. Getting requests for links seems to really get under his skin. If past posting behavior will prove indicative to the present, I expect he will now misquote me, in short order, dozens of times.  :D

My post in that nest quoted above was originally posted (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=31238&start=15#p380351) in response to Whooter himself, requesting a link to his claim that Anne had "admitted ... here on fornits, many times, that programs are helpful in most cases and that [she] had embellished many of the events that [she] claims occurred inside the program."

It would appear that Whooter's claims re. Anne are a complete and utter fabrication, btw, as no one seems to have heard of such a thing.

Are these the kind of games that Whooter likes to play? Putting words in other posters' mouths and deliberate misquoting, all to cast aspersion and deflect focus?

So now that you can see my words have been taken out of context by Anne Bonney I think it would have been the right call to ask her for the link.  

See, Ursus, it is the right thing to do to treat everyone equally and not instill the double standard.  If we let Anne just post anything she wants about people and make up quotes, then everyone would do it and the forum would lose all credibility.

My point (and a lesson to you):  If you ask people for links you should ask equally or stay out of the argument.



...
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Maximilian on September 25, 2010, 07:52:45 PM
Quote from: "Samara"
Well, Max I guess your humility act has worn off and you are back to being your sanctimonious self insisting their is no program abuse and anyone who disagrees is a self pitying fool.

Look, I don't give a shit about what happened to me 20 years ago - it's over and done. (Other than the nightmares and residual affects.) I do give a shit that it still happens.

My problem with programs is that once you are in, you have no credibility. If you have no credibility, you have no access to authentic advocacy, and you sure as hell can't take genuine accountability for your life's direction.  Programs have too much power to manipulate not only your parents, but your own damn sense of self.  

If you want to believe in your Program Jesus, that's fine.  But you sure as hell don't have any right to tell anyone else that our naked scaly assed Emperor does in fact wear clothes.

And if you really were a program kid -and I am 100% certain you are not, Sweet Canadian - I understand why you think you needed Program Jesus.  Afterall, you basically described yourself as a liar, thief, master manipulator, and bullshit artist. But I can tell you that the vast majority of kids I knew were neither addicts nor Satan incarnate and did not need to be warehoused in some Stepford kid factory.

Yeah, yeah. I've heard this all before. I'm a program parent in disguise. I never went to a program. I was brainwashed by the Program Jesus. I've heard many conspiracy theories attempting to dismiss the fact that not everybody who goes to programs feels the way the extremists here on fornits do. Believe whatever you want, I really could care less. There's about 10 people who post here regularly, sorry, but this slim sample does not accurately represent the diverse views on this industry from the people who went through it.
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Maximilian on September 25, 2010, 07:55:27 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Samara"
A hotline won't do Jack shit. The program will still lie about the kid.  Plus, an unattended hotline would be flooded with calls ranging from pranks to the serious. And emotional/mental/and psychological abuse does not have obvious scars. A kid would not be pulled out pending that type of he said-they said investigation. In the mean time, life would be hell for that kid.
The whole school would be rallied up against that kid, were that kid at Hyde. The condemnation would be palpable; you could cut it with a knife.

Then they would be sacrificed at the stake, and the other kids fed the blood of this infidel right? Ever been to high school? Like normal high school, or did you spend all those years in programs for special kids or something? Because tension between individuals and groups is nothing new, and it's certainly not abuse.
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Samara on September 25, 2010, 08:06:45 PM
The people I know who have been at different programs are not isolated to 10 people on Fornits. They're not even isolated to people who went to programs decade ago. And, no sane reputable person would advocate abusive programs. They also wouldn't talk about survivors or victims the way you do, sicko.  

But at least your true nature is back out of the bag.  You must consider your self an extremist too, then, right? Hanging out here on Fornits the way you do.
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Maximilian on September 25, 2010, 08:10:39 PM
Quote from: "Samara"
The people I know who have been at different programs are not isolated to 10 people on Fornits. They're not even isolated to people who went to programs decade ago. And, no sane reputable person would advocate abusive programs. They also wouldn't talk about survivors or victims the way you do, sicko.  

But at least your true nature is back out of the bag.  You must consider your self an extremist too, then, right? Hanging out here on Fornits the way you do.

Sicko? Well now you've gone and hurt my feelings. I am a victim, and a survivor too. Why would you speak to me in such a way? Oh that's right, you are only considered part of the club here if you spout the same mythology and extremist one sided argument that all programs are abusive. It's sad that someone telling their own experience, contrary to the group think, is so objectionable to the cult like group of insular close minded people that post here.
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: RobertBruce on September 25, 2010, 08:13:40 PM
Quote
Sicko? Well now you've gone and hurt my feelings. I am a victim, and a survivor too. Why would you speak to me in such a way? Oh that's right, you are only considered part of the club here if you spout the same mythology and extremist one sided argument that all programs are abusive. It's sad that someone telling their own experience, contrary to the group think, is so objectionable to the cult like group of insular close minded people that post here.

A victim and survivor of what?
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Samara on September 25, 2010, 08:23:01 PM
Maxi, as I've stated, its not your program perspective that bothers me, it's your cruelty and inability to allow other people their experiences.

I can see you are taking script flipping lessons from your idol.
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Maximilian on September 25, 2010, 08:30:46 PM
The reason people are so mad at me all the time is because I don't read off the fornits script. If I was a program staff who abused 100 kids and came here and said the right things, everyone would be my friend. But I never abused anybody, and choose to be honest, and am hated for it, because I don't tow the party line here, and I tell it like it  was when I went to a program. So is the life of someone willing to be honest with themselves amongst a group of ideologically pure extremists. I've been judged, and called every name under sun. Sicko, cruel , unempathetic, sadistic, an abuser, etc, etc, etc. But all this isn't the result of my actions in real life, simply what I have posted on an internet forum. Words. That's it. Some of you people really need to get some perspective, fornits does not represent reality, programs, or the people in them.
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: none-ya on September 25, 2010, 08:35:38 PM
Quote from: "Maximilian"
The reason people are so mad at me all the time is because I don't read off the fornits script. If I was a program staff who abused 100 kids and came here and said the right things, everyone would be my friend. But I never abused anybody, and choose to be honest, and am hated for it, because I don't tow the party line here, and I tell it like it  was when I went to a program. So is the life of someone willing to be honest with themselves amongst a group of ideologically pure extremists. I've been judged, and called every name under sun. Sicko, cruel , unempathetic, sadistic, an abuser, etc, etc, etc. But all this isn't the result of my actions in real life, simply what I have posted on an internet forum. Words. That's it. Some of you people really need to get some perspective, fornits does not represent reality, programs, or the people in them.



 If the program saved your life, why are you still a complete asshole?
It don't sound like they did a very good job.
I'd ask for my money back!
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Samara on September 25, 2010, 08:38:07 PM
Look, Maxi, you are here a great deal of time. If you thought everyone's perspective was wasted space, why hang out here? Do not dare pull the "poor me" crap you supposedly ascribe to other posters here simply because you will not allow other people a voice in advocating against abuse. And like I said, I know too many people off Fornits with the same collective experience.

If you continued with your positive program experiences, I would not be so snarky. The fact that you undermine and belittle other people's hell is sicko.
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Maximilian on September 25, 2010, 08:43:45 PM
I post here because I choose to, I don't owe anybody an explanation why. Take a look at the response before yours as an example of the typical response I get here, no matter how polite I am. But that's different right, because they are good, attacking me, someone who is evil, right?  How dare I be honest and admit that a program saved my life, and that I was not abused. Something that many, many kids who went through programs will say. People are angry at me for posting here, because they want to believe everyone who went to programs had a negative experience just like them, and when people like me or Whooter or anybody else dare that this might not be true, they are attacked by the group until they silence themselves by leaving the forum. Sorry I'm not going anywhere, the hypocritical group attack that permeates fornits of unwelcome opinions will not work on me. Remember, I've been in a program, I'm very familiar with, and also immune to this type of tactic now.

I could ask you the same question. Why do you post here when you know "sickos" like me and Whooter are going to question the obvious bullshit that gets posted here all the time, like condemning all programs based on a limited sample of experiences? Maybe you should try your local support group for program survivors, surely there are many, since programs are so abusive and all, right?
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Samara on September 25, 2010, 08:58:03 PM
You know what, Maxi, I understand you have a vested interest in obfuscation. But don't cry about group bullying when you bully survivors and create fake blackmail schemes. That is a special kind of sickness, and like I've said before, if you were a rapist, would you go on a rape survivor's site and delight in how they really liked it, or simply assert it didn't happen at all? It is inhumane and offensive.

As far as me being here, yes, there are other sites - and many of my old peers have also invested in individual therapy for PTSD - but I do have a sentimental attachment to Fornits because it is the first place I really explored what happened. But to me, you are just a type of rapist who visits the rape survivor site.

But since the topic is "Responsibility for Abuse in the TTI" maybe we should explore exactly how abusers get away with it.  And one tactic is elliptical, script flipping invalidation, along with a nice smile, some esoteric words, and a fine and dandy "who, me?" look of bewilderment, O Great O5ne.
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Maximilian on September 25, 2010, 09:05:29 PM
Quote from: "Samara"
But to me, you are just a type of rapist who visits the rape survivor site.

You can judge me all you want, and call me a rapist or whatever makes you feel better. I really could care less. This type of emotional grand standing does little counter the logical arguments I have made about why generalizations about an entire industry based on a limited number of individual experiences are not accurate. So you and your buddies can call people names, judge them, and use colorful language to push reader's emotional buttons, but it won't change the fact that most programs are safe and effective, and that many parents will continue to entrust their teens to the care of them. If you don't want to debate about the TTI, then like I said, go found a survivor support group, because fornits obviously isn't what you're looking for. But then again, there aren't that many people looking for a support group because they went to a program as a teen. I wonder why that is.
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Samara on September 25, 2010, 09:12:42 PM
I know you don't care. It's your defining trait.

And there are quite a few sites for survivors, but we are still in the dark ages here. Not too many years ago, there was no help for domestic abuse or rape survivors, either. And we all know, domestic abuse and rape don't exist, right O Great O5ne?

If you did go on another site for survivors and basically said they were liars and fools, would you expect them to bake you warm apple pie?
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Maximilian on September 25, 2010, 09:16:10 PM
I have gone and posted on other "survivor" sites, although nobody on those groups and forum referred to themselves with this term. That seems to be reserved for fornits, along with other words like kidnapped, gulag, rapist, etc. I asked if anybody saw or experienced physical abuse, and I was basically laughed out of the group. You think I like programs? You should try talking to the people who frequent some of the groups I read. I don't post there because I don't fit in there, or here. Since I have my own views that don't align either with the "survivor" community or the program faithful, I am kind of in a no mans land of people who are willing to be honest and not have any e-friends. I think I'll live.
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Awake on September 25, 2010, 09:24:18 PM
Quote from: "Maximilian"
But I never abused anybody .


Can you prove you never abused anybody?
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Maximilian on September 25, 2010, 09:33:19 PM
Quote from: "Awake"
Quote from: "Maximilian"
But I never abused anybody .


Can you prove you never abused anybody?

This one time I went to visit a friend at their home, and I knew they were granola, earth friendly type of person. That doesn't bother me at all, I use stainless steel water bottles and recycle, I tend to think of myself as someone who cares about the planet. We were talking and having a drink (soda) and I asked if I could go use the restroom. When I got in there the toilet looked like somebody had already urinated in it, and not flushed the toiled. Gross, I thought. I decided to pre flush to make sure it was working, and it did. So I did my business, washed my hands and went out to see my friend. I didn't know if I should say something, because I thought it might be awkward, so I said "I think your toilet might be busted, because it looked like it didn't flush before me". They started grinning as I said this and I wondered what they were smiling about, "we don't flush for number 1". I thought wtf? Who doesn't flush the toilet when they pee, and what adult calls taking a piss "number 1"? Well long story short, it was explained to me that it was a waste of a precious resource, clean water, to flush every time you piss, and said next time I piss in their home I should not flush unless it's "number two". I was thinking whatever, I'll flush if I want, I thought it was all pretty strange, and taking environmentalism way too far. I thought it was gross, at least they could have given me a warning upon entering the bathroom. Well I just wanted to respond to your off topic post with some more off topic stuff, because in the end this will all be nixed by the moderator for being off topic. If the admin is reading this don't even bother saving or moving my posts, feel free to nuke em all, this conversation is pointless.
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Samara on September 25, 2010, 09:34:23 PM
Maxi5, I would go head to head with you any day on the subject of honesty and fucking certainly on the subject of sincerity.  I am really deaf, and yet, you are deafer than I will ever be when you insist on curtailing the issue that you are unpopular here because of your lack of empathy - not over your belief in Program Jesus.  You clearly patronize survivors and think of yourself as superior. Quite strange. I mean, I don't feel a need to visit places where I view the inhabitants as low lifes. And yet, you do.

Makes. No. Sense.
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Maximilian on September 25, 2010, 09:41:15 PM
Quote from: "Samara"
Maxi5, I would go head to head with you any day on the subject of honesty and fucking certainly on the subject of sincerity.  I am really deaf, and yet, you are deafer than I will ever be when you insist on curtailing the issue that you are unpopular here because of your lack of empathy - not over your belief in Program Jesus.  You clearly patronize survivors and think of yourself as superior. Quite strange. I mean, I don't feel a need to visit places where I view the inhabitants as low lifes. And yet, you do.

Makes. No. Sense.

Will it make you feel better if I say you are a better person than me? I'll admit it, Samara. You are superior to me in every way. Now go enjoy your weekend, and stop wasting your time talking to me. I'm not worth your time. I am not superior to anyone on this forum, in fact, I am quite the piece of shit, and will most likely pay for my sins for all of eternity in the pits of hellfire. But I have accepted this about myself, and it doesn't effect the reality of what I experienced in programs. My morals, or lack of, and motivations for posting here are irrelevant to the discussion of whether programs are effective and/or are abusive. I believe the program saved my life, because it's true. I don't see the people who post here as low lifes, I see them as people who had different experience in programs than I did, and sometimes people here agree with me, but often disagree. However I try not to assume who the person behind the avatar really is, or what their motivations are, or judge them. I try to self correct through both self examination and the examination of external influences, remember, everything happens for a reason.
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Samara on September 25, 2010, 09:54:43 PM
I can't even respond to this BS. You act superior and put down survivors and then say you are trying to share diverse experiences? I'm getting whiplash from your contradictions.

But thank you for your sincere best wishes for my weekend. I did enjoy my day. I took my children to an awesome show and then participated in a charity event and had some incredible Pumpkin Spice microbrew afterward. But fun and games end with this paper in front of me.

Ciao.
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Awake on September 25, 2010, 11:58:46 PM
Quote from: "Maximilian"
Quote from: "Awake"
Quote from: "Maximilian"
But I never abused anybody .


Can you prove you never abused anybody?

this conversation is pointless.


Why pointless? If we’ve learned anything it is that he term abuse is used highly subjectively in the case of the TTI because there is no clear definition of it in that context. Shadyacres put it best by saying that the law has not caught up with science in being able to establish what is or is not abuse in the case of programs. At one time tobacco was sold as a safe product and marketed to children, but whoops aw shucks, sorry I accused all you dying cancer victims of lying. Maybe we do need a disclaimer on the box and enough informed consent to make a decision, and they should prove their product is safe.
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Froderik on September 26, 2010, 08:41:08 AM
Quote from: "Maximilian"
Quote from: "Awake"
Quote from: "Maximilian"
But I never abused anybody .


Can you prove you never abused anybody?

This one time I went to visit a friend at their home, and I knew they were granola, earth friendly type of person. That doesn't bother me at all, I use stainless steel water bottles and recycle, I tend to think of myself as someone who cares about the planet. We were talking and having a drink (soda) and I asked if I could go use the restroom. When I got in there the toilet looked like somebody had already urinated in it, and not flushed the toiled. Gross, I thought. I decided to pre flush to make sure it was working, and it did. So I did my business, washed my hands and went out to see my friend. I didn't know if I should say something, because I thought it might be awkward, so I said "I think your toilet might be busted, because it looked like it didn't flush before me". They started grinning as I said this and I wondered what they were smiling about, "we don't flush for number 1". I thought wtf? Who doesn't flush the toilet when they pee, and what adult calls taking a piss "number 1"? Well long story short, it was explained to me that it was a waste of a precious resource, clean water, to flush every time you piss, and said next time I piss in their home I should not flush unless it's "number two". I was thinking whatever, I'll flush if I want, I thought it was all pretty strange, and taking environmentalism way too far. I thought it was gross, at least they could have given me a warning upon entering the bathroom. Well I just wanted to respond to your off topic post with some more off topic stuff, because in the end this will all be nixed by the moderator for being off topic. If the admin is reading this don't even bother saving or moving my posts, feel free to nuke em all, this conversation is pointless.
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: DannyB II on September 26, 2010, 10:33:27 AM
Quote from: "Awake"
Quote from: "Maximilian"
Quote from: "Awake"
Quote from: "Maximilian"
But I never abused anybody .


Can you prove you never abused anybody?

this conversation is pointless.


Why pointless? If we’ve learned anything it is that he term abuse is used highly subjectively in the case of the TTI because there is no clear definition of it in that context. Shadyacres put it best by saying that the law has not caught up with science in being able to establish what is or is not abuse in the case of programs. At one time tobacco was sold as a safe product and marketed to children, but whoops aw shucks, sorry I accused all you dying cancer victims of lying. Maybe we do need a disclaimer on the box and enough informed consent to make a decision, and they should prove their product is safe.

Quote
Shadyacres put it best by saying that the law has not caught up with science in being able to establish what is or is not abuse in the case of programs.
[/b]

The laws are just fine and science is as subjective as always. What we need is education and reasonable enforcement.

(whoever is erasing my posts here, at least have the @#$$% to email me, as to ?)
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Ursus on September 26, 2010, 04:13:54 PM
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Awake"
Shadyacres put it best by saying that the law has not caught up with science in being able to establish what is or is not abuse in the case of programs.
The laws are just fine and science is as subjective as always. What we need is education and reasonable enforcement.
I disagree. What's understood by the mental health field to be psychological abuse has not yet been fully accepted by the courts as actionable, save in inordinately extreme cases. Moreover, the emotional trauma entailed in merely having to present one's case adds yet another layer of damage many are unwilling or unable to put themselves through.

Quote from: "DannyB II"
(whoever is erasing my posts here, at least have the @#$$% to email me, as to ?)
Have you checked with the various other personages you have posting as DannyB II? Y'all haven't always been the best at keeping abreast of each other's posting and editing activities, at least it's appeared as such in the past...
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: DannyB II on September 26, 2010, 06:38:41 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Awake"
Shadyacres put it best by saying that the law has not caught up with science in being able to establish what is or is not abuse in the case of programs.
The laws are just fine and science is as subjective as always. What we need is education and reasonable enforcement.
I disagree. What's understood by the mental health field to be psychological abuse has not yet been fully accepted by the courts as actionable, save in inordinately extreme cases. Moreover, the emotional trauma entailed in merely having to present one's case adds yet another layer of damage many are unwilling or unable to put themselves through.

Quote from: "DannyB II"
(whoever is erasing my posts here, at least have the @#$$% to email me, as to ?)
Have you checked with the various other personages you have posting as DannyB II? Y'all haven't always been the best at keeping abreast of each other's posting and editing activities, at least it's appeared as such in the past...

I don't know why you are disagreeing, I thought one of your biggest complaints was lack of enforcement of the regulations by "bought off" good ole boys. Ursus I sincerely doubt if the court system will intervene any time soon to tackle the psychological abuse issue. They have not done it in 60 years. It would mean lots of money, enormous amount of time with studies ect... I am not saying this should not be done, I don't believe it will. Intent would be the biggest hurdle.

I mentioned a couple of weeks ago that everyone that was using my user name is no longer allowed. I did not like where we were going. So I ended it. For the past 2 weeks and from here out it will be only me. I would have hoped you would have noticed. Outside of the one caustic response I gave you for asking me for personal info, you have seen who I am and what I will be. Not a bad guy, like to post personal info for the benefit of others but will not stand for unwarranted attacks on the info I put out. Yes Ursus, unwarranted attacks can look like you asking me a question concerning my info. You know why.
So lets just not get personal.....:)
Title: Re: ? is Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Anne Bonney on September 27, 2010, 02:58:15 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Whooter thinks having an abuse hotline in programs is a bad idea because the hotline operator might talk dirty to the kids.

Anne you admitted yourself here on fornits, many times, that programs are helpful in most cases and that you had embellished many of the events that you claim occurred inside the program.


I said no such thing and you know this, yet continue to push your outright lies.


Here's where you said the hotline was a bad idea.


Quote from: "TheWho"

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=21256&p=255763&hilit=+hotline#p255754 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=21256&p=255763&hilit=+hotline#p255754)

Sure, DJ, of course it is possible.  The guy on the abuse hot line could talk dirty to the kids also, but it is highly unlikely.  The hot line never helped the kids who were raped by their teacher at public school, so, the way I see it, you need to do 2 things to convince us one is needed:

1. Determine if the law requires a “Hot Line” to be installed in the school.

2.  How effective is this hot line in keeping kids safe.



So, where's the link to me saying anything close to what you say I did?



Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Whooter thinks having an abuse hotline in programs is a bad idea because the hotline operator might talk dirty to the kids.

Link, please?

I dont believe she has a link, Ursus.  I remember the conversation well and she just made this up.  I dont know why she says things like this.


Hmmm, here's Whooter - yet again - altering posts to make them appear to say something that the original poster didn't intend.   Then again, as you said.....you don't care about your credibility (we need an "obvious" emoticon)

Quote from: "Whooter"

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=31256&start=90#p380469 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=31256&start=90#p380469)

Look, I dont care about credibility, Samara, (I say what I say)


And you wonder why people think you're such an ass.  ::)
Title: Re: ? is Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Whooter on September 27, 2010, 03:17:05 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Whooter thinks having an abuse hotline in programs is a bad idea because the hotline operator might talk dirty to the kids.

Anne you admitted yourself here on fornits, many times, that programs are helpful in most cases and that you had embellished many of the events that you claim occurred inside the program.


I said no such thing and you know this, yet continue to push your outright lies.


Here's where you said the hotline was a bad idea.


Quote from: "TheWho"

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=21256&p=255763&hilit=+hotline#p255754 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=21256&p=255763&hilit=+hotline#p255754)

Sure, DJ, of course it is possible.  The guy on the abuse hot line could talk dirty to the kids also, but it is highly unlikely.  The hot line never helped the kids who were raped by their teacher at public school, so, the way I see it, you need to do 2 things to convince us one is needed:

1. Determine if the law requires a “Hot Line” to be installed in the school.

2.  How effective is this hot line in keeping kids safe.

See, Anne, you still never bothered to read the conversation.  I never said it was a bad idea because the guy on the hotline could talk dirty to them.  I was stating that just like the kid who needs to report abuse to the same person who abused him, the guy on the hotline could talk dirty to him, but highly unlikely...  If you read further I stated my ideas for how we could determine if a hotline would be a good idea.

If you want to take peoples words out of context then you should expect the same treatment back.  This is why people dont take you seriously or believe everything you say.

I really dont know, to this day, if a hotline would be effective or not.  I think it is a good discussion, though.



...
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Maximilian on September 27, 2010, 03:21:16 PM
If there was a hotline in the program I was at, I would have picked it up and claimed anything and everything in an attempt to get out. I imagine that is why they don't exist, because kids in programs will do anything to get out, including lying about being abused to the operator on the other end of the line. The police or whoever the hotline connected to would disconnect it a couple days after it was activated for this reason, after receiving hundreds of false alarms and prank calls from the kids, I guarantee it.
Title: Re: Whooter's trolling outta his cupola
Post by: Ursus on September 27, 2010, 03:30:07 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Hmmm, here's Whooter - yet again - altering posts to make them appear to say something that the original poster didn't intend.
Yep. Here's the post where I asked for a link from... Whooter (not from you):


Originally posted (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=31238&start=15#p380351) on 25 Sep 2010, post titled "Whooter's trolling outta his cupola":
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Whooter thinks having an abuse hotline in programs is a bad idea because the hotline operator might talk dirty to the kids.
Anne you admitted yourself here on fornits, many times, that programs are helpful in most cases and that you had embellished many of the events that you claim occurred inside the program.
Link, please?

I do not recall Anne saying that "programs are helpful in most cases." Nor do I recall her "embellishing" any events from program.
[/list]
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Anne Bonney on September 27, 2010, 03:32:41 PM
Quote from: "Maximilian"
If there was a hotline in the program I was at, I would have picked it up and claimed anything and everything in an attempt to get out. I imagine that is why they don't exist, because kids in programs will do anything to get out, including lying about being abused to the operator on the other end of the line. The police or whoever the hotline connected to would disconnect it a couple days after it was activated for this reason, after receiving hundreds of false alarms and prank calls from the kids, I guarantee it.

So, because you would lie that means that all adults who were kids in a program that say they were abused are lying?

Strange way to look at things, but it gives us an insight into your thought process.
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Maximilian on September 27, 2010, 03:35:02 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Maximilian"
If there was a hotline in the program I was at, I would have picked it up and claimed anything and everything in an attempt to get out. I imagine that is why they don't exist, because kids in programs will do anything to get out, including lying about being abused to the operator on the other end of the line. The police or whoever the hotline connected to would disconnect it a couple days after it was activated for this reason, after receiving hundreds of false alarms and prank calls from the kids, I guarantee it.

So, because you would lie that means that all adults who were kids in a program that say they were abused are lying?

Strange way to look at things, but it gives us an insight into your thought process.

The way you extract your own version of what people say from something that doesn't even mention what you are talking about is very interesting. Read my post more carefully and you might understand them better.
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Anne Bonney on September 27, 2010, 03:39:12 PM
Quote from: "Maximilian"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Maximilian"
If there was a hotline in the program I was at, I would have picked it up and claimed anything and everything in an attempt to get out. I imagine that is why they don't exist, because kids in programs will do anything to get out, including lying about being abused to the operator on the other end of the line. The police or whoever the hotline connected to would disconnect it a couple days after it was activated for this reason, after receiving hundreds of false alarms and prank calls from the kids, I guarantee it.

So, because you would lie that means that all adults who were kids in a program that say they were abused are lying?

Strange way to look at things, but it gives us an insight into your thought process.

The way you extract your own version of what people say from something that doesn't even mention what you are talking about is very interesting. Read my post more carefully and you might understand them better.


I read it again and came up with the same thing.  Can you elaborate to help me further understand your position?
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Whooter on September 27, 2010, 03:52:05 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

I read it again and came up with the same thing.  Can you elaborate to help me further understand your position?

In a program it was stated that the person to whom you need to report abuse to could be the abuser.  I stated that the person answering the abuse hotline phone could talk dirty to the kid, but was highly unlikely.  The hotline people could have training and hiring issues also and get the wrong people in.

The discussion is how do we keep these kids safe.  There is no full proof way, they  need to hire the right people.

I never stated the hotline was a bad idea.  I just don’t know if it would be effective or not and bad people can surface in any profession or job.



...
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Anne Bonney on September 27, 2010, 03:57:19 PM
Why shouldn't the TTI be held to this standard of care?


http://www.healthyminds.org/Main-Topic/ ... ights.aspx (http://www.healthyminds.org/Main-Topic/Patient-Bill-of-Rights.aspx)


Patient Bill of Rights

Mental Health Bill Of Rights Project

A Joint Initiative of Mental Health Professional Organizations:
Principles for the Provision of Mental Health and Substance Abuse Treatment Services

A Bill of Rights
Our commitment is to provide quality mental health and substance abuse services to all individuals without regard to race, color, religion, national origin, gender, age, sexual orientation, or disabilities.

Right to Know

Benefits
Individuals have the right to be provided information from the purchasing entity (such as employer or union or public purchaser) and the insurance/third party payer describing the nature and extent of their mental health and substance abuse treatment benefits. This information should include details on procedures to obtain access to services, on utilization management procedures, and on appeal rights. The information should be presented clearly in writing with language that the individual can understand.

Professional Expertise
Individuals have the right to receive full information from the potential treating professional about that professional’s knowledge, skills, preparation, experience, and credentials. Individuals have the right to be informed about the options available for treatment interventions and the effectiveness of the recommended treatment.

Contractual Limitations
Individuals have the right to be informed by the treating professional of any arrangements, restrictions, and/or covenants established between third party payer and the treating professional that could interfere with or influence treatment recommendations. Individuals have the right to be informed of the nature of information that may be disclosed for the purposes of paying benefits.

Appeals and Grievances
Individuals have the right to receive information about the methods they can use to submit complaints or grievances regarding provision of care by the treating professional to that profession’s regulatory board and to the professional association. Individuals have the right to be provided information about the procedures they can use to appeal benefit utilization decisions to the third party payer systems, to the employer or purchasing entity, and to external regulatory entities.

Confidentiality
Individuals have the right to be guaranteed the protection of the confidentiality of their relationship with their mental health and substance abuse professional, except when laws or ethics dictate otherwise. Any disclosure to another party will be time limited and made with the full written, informed consent of the individuals. Individuals shall not be required to disclose confidential, privileged or other information other than: diagnosis, prognosis, type of treatment, time and length of treatment, and cost. Entities receiving information for the purposes of benefits determination, public agencies receiving information for health care planning, or any other organization with legitimate right to information will maintain clinical information in confidence with the same rigor and be subject to the same penalties for violation as is the direct provider of care.

Information technology will be used for transmission, storage, or data management only with methodologies that remove individual identifying information and assure the protection of the individual’s privacy. Information should not be transferred, sold or otherwise utilized.

Choice
Individuals have the right to choose any duly licensed/certified professional for mental health and substance abuse services. Individuals have the right to receive full information regarding the education and training of professionals, treatment options (including risks and benefits), and cost implications to make an informed choice regarding the selection of care deemed appropriate by individual and professional.

Determination of Treatment
Recommendations regarding mental health and substance abuse treatment shall be made only by a duly licensed/certified professional in conjunction with the individual and his or her family as appropriate. Treatment decisions should not be made by third party payers. The individual has the right to make final decisions regarding treatment.

Parity
Individuals have the right to receive benefits for mental health and substance abuse treatment on the same basis as they do for any other illnesses, with the same provisions, co-payments, lifetime benefits, and catastrophic coverage in both insurance and self-funded/self-insured health plans.

Discrimination
Individuals who use mental health and substance abuse benefits shall not be penalized when seeking other health insurance or disability, life or any other insurance benefit.

Benefit Usage
The individual is entitled to the entire scope of the benefits within the benefit plan that will address his or her clinical needs.

Benefit Design
Whenever both federal and state law and/or regulations are applicable, the professional and all payers shall use whichever affords the individual the greatest level of protection and access.

Treatment Review
To assure that treatment review processes are fair and valid, individuals have the right to be guaranteed that any review of their mental health and substance abuse treatment shall involve a professional having the training, credentials and licensure required to provide the treatment in the jurisdiction in which it will be provided. The reviewer should have no financial interest in the decision and is subject to the section on confidentiality.

Accountability
Treating professionals may be held accountable and liable to individuals for any injury caused by gross incompetence or negligence on the part of the professional. The treating professional has the obligation to advocate for and document necessity of care and to advise the individual of options if payment authorization is denied.

Payers and other third parties may be held accountable and liable to individuals for any injury caused by gross incompetence or negligence or by their clinically unjustified decisions.

Participating Groups:
American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy
American Counseling Association
American Family Therapy Academy
American Nurses Association
American Psychological Association
American Psychiatric Association
American Psychiatric Nurses Association
National Association of Social Workers
National Federation of Societies for Clinical Social Work

Supporting Groups:
Mental Health America
National Depressive and Manic-Depressive Association
American Group Psychotherapy Association
American Psychoanalytic Association
National Association of Drug and Alcohol Abuse Counselors
Title: Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
Post by: Whooter on September 27, 2010, 04:15:53 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Why shouldn't the TTI be held to this standard of care?


http://www.healthyminds.org/Main-Topic/ ... ights.aspx (http://www.healthyminds.org/Main-Topic/Patient-Bill-of-Rights.aspx)


Patient Bill of Rights

Mental Health Bill Of Rights Project

A Joint Initiative of Mental Health Professional Organizations:
Principles for the Provision of Mental Health and Substance Abuse Treatment Services

A Bill of Rights
Our commitment is to provide quality mental health and substance abuse services to all individuals without regard to race, color, religion, national origin, gender, age, sexual orientation, or disabilities.

Right to Know

Benefits
Individuals have the right to be provided information from the purchasing entity (such as employer or union or public purchaser) and the insurance/third party payer describing the nature and extent of their mental health and substance abuse treatment benefits. This information should include details on procedures to obtain access to services, on utilization management procedures, and on appeal rights. The information should be presented clearly in writing with language that the individual can understand.

Professional Expertise
Individuals have the right to receive full information from the potential treating professional about that professional’s knowledge, skills, preparation, experience, and credentials. Individuals have the right to be informed about the options available for treatment interventions and the effectiveness of the recommended treatment.

Contractual Limitations
Individuals have the right to be informed by the treating professional of any arrangements, restrictions, and/or covenants established between third party payer and the treating professional that could interfere with or influence treatment recommendations. Individuals have the right to be informed of the nature of information that may be disclosed for the purposes of paying benefits.

Appeals and Grievances
Individuals have the right to receive information about the methods they can use to submit complaints or grievances regarding provision of care by the treating professional to that profession’s regulatory board and to the professional association. Individuals have the right to be provided information about the procedures they can use to appeal benefit utilization decisions to the third party payer systems, to the employer or purchasing entity, and to external regulatory entities.

Confidentiality
Individuals have the right to be guaranteed the protection of the confidentiality of their relationship with their mental health and substance abuse professional, except when laws or ethics dictate otherwise. Any disclosure to another party will be time limited and made with the full written, informed consent of the individuals. Individuals shall not be required to disclose confidential, privileged or other information other than: diagnosis, prognosis, type of treatment, time and length of treatment, and cost. Entities receiving information for the purposes of benefits determination, public agencies receiving information for health care planning, or any other organization with legitimate right to information will maintain clinical information in confidence with the same rigor and be subject to the same penalties for violation as is the direct provider of care.

Information technology will be used for transmission, storage, or data management only with methodologies that remove individual identifying information and assure the protection of the individual’s privacy. Information should not be transferred, sold or otherwise utilized.

Choice
Individuals have the right to choose any duly licensed/certified professional for mental health and substance abuse services. Individuals have the right to receive full information regarding the education and training of professionals, treatment options (including risks and benefits), and cost implications to make an informed choice regarding the selection of care deemed appropriate by individual and professional.

Determination of Treatment
Recommendations regarding mental health and substance abuse treatment shall be made only by a duly licensed/certified professional in conjunction with the individual and his or her family as appropriate. Treatment decisions should not be made by third party payers. The individual has the right to make final decisions regarding treatment.

Parity
Individuals have the right to receive benefits for mental health and substance abuse treatment on the same basis as they do for any other illnesses, with the same provisions, co-payments, lifetime benefits, and catastrophic coverage in both insurance and self-funded/self-insured health plans.

Discrimination
Individuals who use mental health and substance abuse benefits shall not be penalized when seeking other health insurance or disability, life or any other insurance benefit.

Benefit Usage
The individual is entitled to the entire scope of the benefits within the benefit plan that will address his or her clinical needs.

Benefit Design
Whenever both federal and state law and/or regulations are applicable, the professional and all payers shall use whichever affords the individual the greatest level of protection and access.

Treatment Review
To assure that treatment review processes are fair and valid, individuals have the right to be guaranteed that any review of their mental health and substance abuse treatment shall involve a professional having the training, credentials and licensure required to provide the treatment in the jurisdiction in which it will be provided. The reviewer should have no financial interest in the decision and is subject to the section on confidentiality.

Accountability
Treating professionals may be held accountable and liable to individuals for any injury caused by gross incompetence or negligence on the part of the professional. The treating professional has the obligation to advocate for and document necessity of care and to advise the individual of options if payment authorization is denied.

Payers and other third parties may be held accountable and liable to individuals for any injury caused by gross incompetence or negligence or by their clinically unjustified decisions.

Participating Groups:
American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy
American Counseling Association
American Family Therapy Academy
American Nurses Association
American Psychological Association
American Psychiatric Association
American Psychiatric Nurses Association
National Association of Social Workers
National Federation of Societies for Clinical Social Work

Supporting Groups:
Mental Health America
National Depressive and Manic-Depressive Association
American Group Psychotherapy Association
American Psychoanalytic Association
National Association of Drug and Alcohol Abuse Counselors

I think they should be held to the same standards.  The people within the program should be held to standards which are suitable to their profession and training.  In the case where the person is a minor then the parents should be informed and participate in the decision making.



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