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Messages - GregFL

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16
The Seed Discussion Forum / Re: Tired and dismayed
« on: July 29, 2009, 11:16:40 PM »
Quote from: "guest567"
Nice, Stripe. Very well written.

Are you still working with him on the "Class Action Lawsuit?"  I'm being sincere and you can tell me to MYOB, but I am curious.

Gotta tell you, I thought the first reply would be, "He started it!"  Which he did, of course. Simply look back and see when all of this discord started in this forum. Had he come in and not had an agenda, and if his manner was more conducive to this environment, well...

I am curious too Stripe.  Are you involving yourself with these people and is this guy really a bar member?

17
The Seed Discussion Forum / Re: Class Action Filing
« on: July 29, 2009, 11:15:05 PM »
Thanks for the history lesson Ursus, but your diabribe missed the mark and ignored the message of my post.  That was in part, we were the first victims of the synanon system used en masse against children. We were the first warehoused kids, held sometimes by a thousand or more in abandoned warehouses. Art Barker got the techniques from AA and then the synanon techniques were layered on top.  there is still a bit of mystery surrounding how that came about, but I have my theories.

We have a rightfull place in the history of this story.  While the synanon style academies predated our experience and had similarities, it was Art Barker that changed the direction and tone of the experience.  We also have a responsibility to the current victims of descendent programs to act and operate in a credible manner, IMO. Your opinion may vary.  I suspect it does.

18
The Seed Discussion Forum / Re: Tired and dismayed
« on: July 29, 2009, 11:04:05 PM »
Shout out to you Stripe.  You and I are on the same page.

19
The Seed Discussion Forum / Re: Class Action Filing
« on: July 29, 2009, 02:41:04 PM »
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "GregFL"
We were the first victims of this system

You might want to do a little more research before making that statement.


I know about Cebu Ursus, but I am talking about this particular system that led to the straight et al. Sorry I wasn't more clear. Maybe for once you could try to process a message without trying to pick it apart, Mkay?

20
The Seed Discussion Forum / Re: Class Action Filing
« on: July 29, 2009, 02:08:40 PM »
Quote from: "Guest"
This is a good barometer of how serious the radical gang of one (2 or 3) is that has recently swamped this forum.
It is, however, the only vehicle available to "save kids" and "stop these people" from whatever.

I do think it is misplaced, it belongs on the Straight forum, as Mel Sembler et al have more to fear from public opinion than any of the principals at the Seed.

I promised myself I would stay out of here but this post is the only intelligent thing I see on here lately worth of a  response. I don't think even Sembler, et al. has much to fear from public opinion anymore as anyone who cares already knows about him and he lives his life in the upper echelon of society where public opinion is a mere inconvenience. The real battleground is in the current programs.

I would say this.  I understand the anger that people feel when they have buried this stuff and then it percolates to the surface.  Not only do I understand it I have experienced it first hand. I just processed it differently and luckily was able to get over it without harming myself.   This anger was indeed the inspiration for the seed discussion forum.  

I am fortunate enough to have gone thru this quite a few years ago when only a handfull of us were on the internet talking it thru.  Those conversations can be found somewhere on fornits archived from a prior bulletin board that Ginger and Wes (may he rest in peace) set up.  I was maybe the 7th or so person to the party. We all from all parts of the country  decided to channel our outrage onto a  current program in Orlando, showed up with homemade signs (my older daughter and I spent all night making signs). I found my best use was talking to the parents in a rational manner and noticed that when people raged, they just shrugged it off. Things just started snowballing from there. We used to spend hours every day going from forum to forum on the internet talking about this stuff, chasing news articles and telling people what was going on. Even still, I never wanted to moderate this forum but with steady prodding from Ginger and with an idea I had, that I could create a different type of forum from the rest of Fornits that actually brought in real answers from the insiders, nutured all who came in to talk and allowed a real conversation instead of a shouting match, encouraged debate instead of attacks and gave people a chance to heal instead of just vent. The conversations that ensued were only part of it. I had people VERY close to Art Barker calling me and sending me things, tellling me stories that led me down paths I had no idea existed , and generally fascinating me to no end. Ginger, for all her flaws (and mine, and all of ours) has steadfastly, thru personal tragedy, thru thick and thin,  committed to keeping this place up.  She is the real reason so much attention is now focused on these programs. So there you have it, the reason this forum exists, and the reason the current programs are  catching so much heat,  A small group of people talking on the internet, and a  middle aged lady who is committed to shine a light on the teen help industry  and those inspired by the conversations and revelations that have come out of these forums.  

Back to the anger. The trick is to channel the negative energy into something constructive.  Is attacking people you don't know  and that are pretty much untouchable constructive?  I don't think so.  Is attacking people who may have also been misguided and are trying to live out their lives in peace and do good in the world constructive? Not in my book.  Is a recoverable lawsuit against the Seed or any of its participants likely?  No. Way too much time has gone by and the courts aren't friendly to these lawsuits anyway.  I sat in federal court  at the request of a kid and his mom for moral support and watched a clear case of current abuse get dismissed.  The kid afterall was a 'druggie who needed help' and claims of cult, abuse, etc were dismissed out of hand.  How will that change? Certainly not by trolling a forum.  Is violent imagery lending credibility to your position, whether it is satirical or not?   Of course not. In addition to making you look crazy, it makes the entire totalitarity of all critics look sketchy.  That is why I believe someone thinks the trolling may be an attempt to discredit the forum. I don't. I think it is genuine rage that needs addressing.  I don't think it is healthy at all and wish peace on those that are doing it. I also wish they would stop and not for my benefit.  With knowledge comes responsibility, and the responsible thing to do is educate others on this topic , not repulse them.

The real battleground for people who want to do something constructive is in the current programs and the recently closed programs, and unless you are a very special person, this really isn't our battle.  We do howver play a very  critical role in understanding just what exactly is going on, and To that end our collective experiences are very important.  We were the first victims of this system, the first synanon type program (en mass) designed for children.  As such, we have an important story to tell and a responsibility to tell it in a way that doesn't sound like sour grapes. By doing the right things, we can and have discredited these programs to the point of them shutting down , instead of just discrediting ourselves. By doing the wrong things we can make things worse for the people who are in a position of recovery against a current or recent program.

If we are to tell an important story and pass the torch to people who really have a battle to fight, we need credibility.  That is lacking currently.  I could care less who these people are who are trolling the forum, whether they sing good or look goofy on youtube or really are lawyers , writing, or whatever.  That is not my concern.  My concern is and was the message and inspiration this forum provided for people who were involved with the seed  and provides for many of the people carrying the torch forward.  As it stands no one could take this forum seriously anymore.  I don't care who likes or dislikes "Gregfl" or who wishes me or my family harm.  These are nameless people on the internet and I fear none.  I do care for what happened to our forum but am powerless to fix it.  For that I am sorry.

21
The Seed Discussion Forum / ginger
« on: July 27, 2009, 02:33:09 PM »
Since you seem to be responding to me in your post, Ginger, antigen, Urses and countless "Guest" logins, I will respond.


You wasted your time transcribing that article because I friggen emailed you a copy YEARS ago.  Also I turned over my entire portfolio of articles (including this one), research,  'facts' , and assorted knowledge gleaned from this subject to Evan wright for his article and upcoming book.  I also brought him into a current program (at the time) and got us into an open meeting and an interview with current enrollees as you may recall, because we called you immediately after leaving.


As far as researching the teen industry, my days are over.  I decided years ago to turn this over to the young guys coming up like Pysch who are closer to what happened, more internet savy, and have the time and energy to do it in a more effective manner.



I never agreed with everything you did but always respected your right to do so  and appreciated the time you put into the forum.  I left on good terms with you, and you decided to shove me under the bus on the way out. This forum was designed before day one to lure everyone to the conversation and was pre-planned and designed for the purpose to protect everyone due to the sensitive nature of the subject matter and to make all feel safe to post. That way, for example, we got to hear from John underwood and got the participation from people who spent the better part of their lives attached to the Seed.  That was ALWAYS the plan.  I told you before day one I was going to set it up like this and even bet you that I could get them to participate.   For you to come in here, 8 years or so later and feign shock and surprise  that the seed forum was moderated against personal attacks and protected people's identities  says volumes about  either your memory or your integrity.  That you would align yourself with people who are threatening violence and criminal acts against others  and wishing death on peoples dogs and children also leaves me a clue as to how far you and I have left common ground.  Thanks for nothing.

22
The Seed Discussion Forum / Re: This forum, Now and then
« on: July 26, 2009, 11:14:14 PM »
Quote from: "Antigen"
Quote from: "susantoo"
Quote from: "psy"
Fair and open is subjective.  Fox calls itself "fair and balanced". It does not make it so.  The only truly fair discussion is one where nobody has any power over the words of others.  Sure it results in a fair bit of chaos, but there is also the guarantee that it is fair.  You might have been a benevolent monarch, but such a system is only as good as it's leader... and people shouldn't have to trust in a leader...  they should be able to trust in a system.  As it is a system exists that does not rely on a single person's benevolence or fairness where in a sense nobody and everybody is in charge.  Everybody has a fair shake at the discussion table including the "trolls" which is really a term for that which you personally find irrelevant, distracting, or otherwise offensive..

. Now, can you find any logical flaw in Psy's take?



I could spend quite a bit of time picking it apart, especially his gratuitis re-definition of  the geneally accepted meaning of "forum troll" to suit his point, but generally the implication is 1) don't trust a leader, moderation is subjective and isn't 'fair' 2) trust a system instead, see the objective results!

This neglects the fact that the system can be manipulated, in absense of a leader ie: moderator , by people who want the system to fail, thereby rendering the system a failure.  Example a) this forum in its current state.

This neglects that if a forum wants an open discussion, and 100 people with opinion A pile on every new person with opinion B, that no constructive OPEN conversation will occur.

There is more butI will leave it here.


Moderating forums is tricky and can result in even worse results than an unmoderated forum if the forum leader is not benevolent and unbaised in his/her moderation.  In addition it is mostly less than thankless. you open yourself up to attacks continually deal with spam and idiots, and of course the pay is atrocious.  The net is swamped with examples of bad forums.  Forum moderation with rules that apply to everyone in my opinion yield the best results, especially when you want open conversation from all sides of a discussion.  The forum now obviously isn't looking for that and shouts down contrary opinions. It seems like you guys want a anti-program party and not a discussion, and that is fine.  Just please  if you have the time archive the forum at the point I left, and rename the new forum "I  hate the seed and dare you to come in here".   That would be more honest.

23
The Seed Discussion Forum / Re: GREG FL
« on: July 26, 2009, 10:48:47 PM »
Stack, I accept your apology for the things you said.

I suggested your sister log off, not because of her opinion, but because in my experience that sort of online raging is self destructive.In my years of moderating this forum I have seen people come aboard and get better and seen others degenerate and get stuck in the negative.   Period.  Try to  read what I said without your rage filter on.... " Log off, your participation is hurting YOU".  Not me. Not Art Barker. Not Libby.    Get it?  You guys aren't 14 anymore.  Stop acting like it.

People don't use their real names on forums not because they are afraid of Art Barker, but because it is not generally safe to do so.  Many people, including the staffers and many participants here know whoI am.  I have spoken to many of them and corresponded directly with them.  So your implication that we are scared to post our name is downright silly.  I wouldn't use my real name on any forum.

You guys come barreling in here, reposting old articles that I dug out of the St. Petersburg Times microfish archives years and years ago like you actually did something.  You post personal addresses that anyone who wants them can easily get them, and troll the forum with nonsense, multiple logins  and imply you would like to take criminal violent actions against people . You shout down all who disagree and bury posts you don't like under nonsense posts.  You make still more  direct  violent threats against people who disagree with you, which is quite laughable if I do say so after seeing your picture. Regardless of this,  If you think this is how you get a point across, you don't understand how civilized people  engage each other in conversation.   You even repulse people who generally agree with you.    That is your right and the current moderators have made crystal clear they not only support this, they encourage it.  Go for it, have a ball.


Ginger, on a personal note thanks for your well wishes, but you did Know I moderated personal attacks in this forum and not just spam.   Your stating otherwise is disengenious, especially in light of all the conversations we had thru the years about the difference in content and tone between the moderated seed forum and the unmoderated Straight forum.  For you to imply otherwise is throwing me under the bus, and in light of our 10 year relationship,  that kind of sucks.



Stack, In accepting your apology I would also like to let you know that I find you personally repugnant and wont' be engaging you in any further discussion.


Thank you.

24
The Seed Discussion Forum / Re: This forum, Now and then
« on: July 26, 2009, 12:37:07 PM »
Quote from: "Guest"
this guy Greg altered people's posts... "deleted names" "no personal attacks were allowed" --


That is true.  Regardless of which side of an issue you were on, you were not allowed to shout obscenities at anyone, or I would delete them.  You were not allowed to "out" people who were in the seed, as it could impact their jobs and their lives in general.  As far as altering posts, I never deleted anyone's opinion and I had trolls that hated me, just as now, except the difference was back then they were on both sides of the issue. The original intent of THIS (not all formits forums) was to engage people in an adult conversation and to attract everyone to the conversation.  We did it, and it was a huge success in my opinion.    For those that wanted to troll, well there was always the Straight forum which allowed it.

Obviously those in charge now have a different vision, and to me the result  speaks for itself.  You may disagree, and that is fine. Have at it.  I won't waste any more time dealing with mentally unstable people who post violent fantasies and attack people's families when they disagree with what they say.

Good day.

25
The Seed Discussion Forum / Re: This forum, Now and then
« on: July 26, 2009, 12:27:41 PM »
Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "GregFL"
At least one difference between you and I is that I believe a level playing field and a fair and open moderated discussion allows the truth to bubble to the surface.

Fair and open is subjective.  Fox calls itself "fair and balanced". It does not make it so.  The only truly fair discussion is one where nobody has any power over the words of others.  Sure it results in a fair bit of chaos, but there is also the guarantee that it is fair.  You might have been a benevolent monarch, but such a system is only as good as it's leader... and people shouldn't have to trust in a leader...  they should be able to trust in a system.  As it is a system exists that does not rely on a single person's benevolence or fairness where in a sense nobody and everybody is in charge.  Everybody has a fair shake at the discussion table including the "trolls" which is really a term for that which you personally find irrelevant, distracting, or otherwise offensive..


Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "GregFL"
At least one difference between you and I is that I believe a level playing field and a fair and open moderated discussion allows the truth to bubble to the surface.

Fair and open is subjective.  Fox calls itself "fair and balanced". It does not make it so.  The only truly fair discussion is one where nobody has any power over the words of others.  Sure it results in a fair bit of chaos, but there is also the guarantee that it is fair.  You might have been a benevolent monarch, but such a system is only as good as it's leader... and people shouldn't have to trust in a leader...  they should be able to trust in a system.  As it is a system exists that does not rely on a single person's benevolence or fairness where in a sense nobody and everybody is in charge.  Everybody has a fair shake at the discussion table including the "trolls" which is really a term for that which you personally find irrelevant, distracting, or otherwise offensive..


I disagree.  IT puts the power in the hands of the person with the least amount of integrity.  It revolts and turns away good people who would otherwise contribute.  It invites people with little to contribute to disrupt the flow of information, and it allows people with nothing more to do to flood and bury topics that they don't like and to create multiple logins to agree with themselves and to gang up on the opposition.

A fairly (non fox news) moderated discussion omits this type of environment and just allows people to stay on topic and to equally debate an issue.  If the moderator isn't fair, it reverts back to the situation you have here where people shout down the opposition.  This is why debates are moderated. In its persent form, this forum  is not a conversation, it is a method of propping up internet bullies.  

We will agree to disagree on this point, just as Ginger and I have for years and years.

That's okay Pysc, It just doesn't comport with my vision of a an interesting conversation.  I am out of here and wish everyone the best.

26
The Seed Discussion Forum / Re: This forum, Now and then
« on: July 24, 2009, 05:39:44 PM »
Quote from: "Stripe"
Greg,

I have nothing but the utmost respect for you and for the work you have done on this forum. And Ginger, too.  To both of you: your thoughtful questions and responses made the journey for me a positive experience.  Not necessarily an easy task by any means.  The challenges of confronting our experiences and our participation has made for some very interesting and thought provoking  discussions.  On a personal note, Greg, I've wondered where you have been of late.  I am sorry your daughter is not well and I hope that her health improves. While I never met you or Ginger personally, I appreciate all that you have done.
 :bump:

Thanks.


Thanks my friend.  The respect flows both ways.  

Stripe, now that so much time has passed I can tell you this.  You were the type of person I had in mind when the forum was started.    Watching you go thru the process of dealing with your past  and coming out the other side was immensely gratifying for me.  Thank you for your participation during the good times.

27
The Seed Discussion Forum / Re: Maybe this would work?
« on: July 24, 2009, 05:30:55 PM »
Quote from: "V6 Injun"
Quote from: "stack jones"
libby the liar and her hardy har har husband posted a legal threat

this is interesting. can you post a link to that? how do you know it was them?


He can not because it never happened. I have never, not once, ever been threatened with legal action for anything I ever did as moderator of this forum.  Period.  


 Something is seriously wrong with this person.  He thinks people fear him when they do not. He thinks people are shocked and scared by his postings rather than the real reaction, wonder and amazement at his lack of maturity and juvenile writing skills.   He thinks he has power he does not. He acts like his legal threats have moxey when the chances of ever collecting against anyone involved in the seed are beyond Miniscule due to many reasons including but not limited to statue of limitations.  He operates under the mistaken impression that people are impressed with him rather than revolted.  He acts like the people who ran the Seed fear him, when most of them detached from the Seed years ago and are busy raising their grandchildren by now, and Art Barker is an old man with health problems that likely couldn't log on the internet under any circumstance, let alone read the pages if he could.


 What an ignorant putz.

28
The Seed Discussion Forum / Re: This forum, Now and then
« on: July 24, 2009, 11:49:28 AM »
Quote from: "Guest"
Greg get over yourself.Obviously you started this forum for all the wrong reasons, these are victims, abused  remember, let it go, its not about you, it is about the victims.

You are so wrong about everything you post.  If you took the time to stop ranting and making a fool out of yourself, you would see by my prior posts that I was forced into the seed myself at age 14, and that it was an immensely negative experience for me, resulting in a major divide in my family and me leaving home at age 16.  It took years and years for me to figure it all out and repair the damage to myself and to my family.  Much of the reason I started this was so other people could resolve their issues and come to terms with what happened to them. Everyone had their own experience. Some people got out relatively unscathed. Other people jumped off the skyway bridge after graduating. Some even had problems they resolved and went on to become fathers, mothers, doctors, lawyers.  Nothing is black and white.  Most of the staff members were forced in as well and underwent the same mind control the rest of us did. No one understood the mechanisms at work, except maybe Art Barker and Bobbie Dupont.   Blaming others  and threatening people who don't agree with you helps nothing.  Painting everyone with your experience just shows you haven't looked at what happened from a detached perspective..yet.  I hope that changes for you.

At least one difference between you and I is that I believe a level playing field and a fair and open moderated discussion allows the truth to bubble to the surface.  This forum used to provide that environment. Evidences that I am right are buried in these pages under the nonsense and garbaged that is spewed today..  You seem to believe that threats, insults, and bullying tactics get your message across.  You are wrong. Instead, the opposite occurs, people tend to reject everything that you say and dismiss the source (ie: You) outright.  You should know this by now. If you don't, You should actively seek ways to better communicate your message.

29
The Seed Discussion Forum / Re: This forum, Now and then
« on: July 24, 2009, 11:07:49 AM »
Quote from: "NobodyThatMatters"
TXGreg - best wishes to you. Good move removing yourself from a site that isn't even a shadow of its former self. Though I always vehemently disagreed with your opinions, I always respected, and maybe even admired, what you attempted to do. You can be sure that none of the (what you call) trolls here today, despite their alleged anti-Seed enthusiasm, would put the amount of time and the commitment into this site that you did.

To the alias Stack Jones - I can merely derive from your posts that your arrogance is only exceeded by your insanity (or maybe just tastelessness, ...for your sake I hope so). Being somewhat familiar with Japanese society, (if indeed you are in Japan), I can only conclude that prisons and/or psychiatric institutions there allow inmates access to computers, (persons of an ilk, as pronounced as yours, are generally shunned in Japanese society). And as far as scaring anyone, give me a break, please. The only thing scary about you is your lack of literacy and your perverse ability to, somehow, get others to respond to your preposterously ludicrous, demented, juvenile rantings in a non-negative manner.


Thanks for what you wrote.  My only wish is that the prior forum could have been archived.  I was repeatedly told by people that weren't even in the Seed  that they found it the most usefull forum on fornits.  The forum reached almost everyone who was in the Seed, either by participation, lurking, or by hearing about it.  It has gone from being a shining example of what intelligent conversation can accomplish to an example of how a few idiots can ruin a discussion.

30
The Seed Discussion Forum / Re: This forum, Now and then
« on: July 23, 2009, 01:41:52 PM »
Quote from: "OpenMeetingJerk-CL"
Glad your daughter's doing well, Greg.  Hope you are as well.  Thanks for shedding some light on what has happened here with respect to the tone and interactions of this forum.


OMJ-CL.   I am logging off here shortly, but yes things are different.  Being the former moderater of this and other forums I can pretty much tell you that many of these people who post  are likely the same person.  It is not unusual for a person/troll on a forum to interact with him/herself and even take on completely different personas with their various logins.  

Again, this isn't my ballgame anymore.  Nice hearing from you.

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