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Messages - AACameToBe

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1
http://www1.spa.american.edu/justice/documents/1969.pdf

American University- Washinton DC

JUSTICE PROGRAMS OFFICE SCHOOL OF PUBLIC AFFAIRS
BUREAU OF JUSTICE ASSISTANCE (BJA) DRUG COURT
CLEARINGHOUSE
FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS FACT SHEET SERIES: The Appropriateness of Requiring
NA Meetings as a Condition of Drug Court Participation
Subject: The Appropriateness of Requiring AA/NA Meetings as a Condition of Drug Court
Participation.
From: BJA Drug Court Clearinghouse
Date: November 26, 2006
QUESTION
Leonard Kuentz, assistant public defender in Baltimore City, has raised the following issue:
I’m interested in whether there is an official position regarding the appropriateness of requiring NA meetings as a
condition of drug court participation.
1. Does your drug court require participants to attend AA/NA meetings as a condition of drug court participation?
2. If yes, (a) how many meetings are required per week?
(b) what sanctions are imposed for non-attendance?
3. If AA/NA participation is required, are there alternatives for persons who don’t wish to participate in AA/NA?
If so, what are these alternatives?
4. If there are no alternatives, have any legal challenges been made to the requirement of NA/AA attendance? If
so, what has been the outcome (please provide the case citation)?
RESPONSES
ALASKA
Hon. Keith B. Levy
District Court Judge
Juneau, Alaska
[email protected]

2
Addiction Treatment Philosophy / Re: Vicky on RFR- Vicky on Orange
« on: August 10, 2012, 08:08:20 PM »
She said this on RFR.....Vicky you are serious...others are barking mad. You need to really look in the mirror. I am so sorry you wasted 11 years of your life....I thought you were in charge?


Eyes wide open

Postby Vicky345uk » Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:57 pm
I cannot believe I fell for all the bullshit that AA dished out. It been a long time since i went to a meeting but just this last couple of days I have come across steppers and they are barking mad. That used to be me, anyone who tried to put AA down I would rip their heads off. I had not a clue about the history of AA until I started to research about what was wrong with the cult. 11 years of my life wasted that I will never get back. :(

3
btnben is an admin on RFR, when he goes over to OPF's he changes his username to Conan.This way he can speak as filthy, vulgar and abusively as he wants knowing he has the anonymity. btnben doesn't want his members on RFR to know what a pig he really is. The problem is, we all know who he is and we will not let the members on RFR not know about him. They need to know what kind of sicko he is.
You will noticed two separate personalities that came from the same person.

RFR=RecoveringfromRecovery
OPF= Orange Papers Forum

btnben/Conan on RFR-

Re: Medicinal Marijuana

Postby btnben » Sun Jul 29, 2012 11:55 am
That made me look up Rainbow - Derriford is my local hospital. I've got an appointment there in a couple of weeks. I don't think I'll be prescribed marijuana, but we live in hope :evil:

I'm starting to feel there is something strange going on in this town. The local treatment centre has thrown out the 12 steps!. The local hospital is seriously investigation the medicinal use of marijuana! Everyone's heard of the Bermuda Triangle. Could this be a new phenomenon - The Plymouth Dodecahedron? :D :D :D
(Ben letting us know where he lives in England, thanks Conan)


AA Related Links

Postby btnben » Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:48 pm
A few of us were talking on Skype the other night and the topic of conversation required finding links to verify certain things. We seemed to spend a lot of time looking for links. Everyone finds loads of them but there are now so many that it is difficult to find them sometimes (C&E excepted :D ).

I propose we set up a topic here which will be an ever growing entry of links with a brief one line description of what the link is. For example, a typicsl entry would be :-

"21st April 1960 - Bill W talking to National Clergy Conference On Alcoholism - Alcoholism is NOT a Disease

http://www.silkworth.net/aahistory/billw2/clergy.html"

This will need a few people to organise. The idea being that anyone who finds a relevant thread just puts it in here in a new entry and it can then be edited into the relevant section of the ever growing list. Hopefully we can build up a nice reference list that will save time when looking for information and also be an interesting place for a newcomer to get some feel of what were trying to do.

4
Read people please, there are some very persuasive arguments here.....not!!



Alcoholism is not a "disease" here is why
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12 posts • Page 1 of 2 • 12
Alcoholism is not a "disease" here is why

Postby AkathisiA » Mon May 28, 2012 8:21 pm
Quick Facts about Psychiatry

While posing as “authorities” on the mind and mental health, psychiatry has no scientific basis for any of its treatments or methods.
Real Disease vs. Mental “Disorder”

Psychiatric disorders like alcoholism and addiction (alcohol dependence, DSM-IV 303.90; alcohol abuse, DSM-IV 305.00) are not medical diseases. There are no lab tests, brain scans, X-rays or chemical imbalance tests that can verify any mental disorder is a physical condition. This is not to say that people do not get depressed, or that people can’t experience emotional or mental duress and drink to much, but psychiatry has repackaged these emotions and behaviors as “disease” in order to sell drugs and "treatment". This is a brilliant marketing campaign, but it is not science.
Very noticeable would be the absence of the word, even the idea, of cure, whether amongst addicts, families of addicts, government officials, media or anywhere else.

In its place are words like disease, illness, chronic, management, maintenance, reduction and relapse. Addicts in rehab are taught to refer to themselves as “recovering,” never “cured.” Stated in different ways, the implicit consensus that has been created is that drug addiction is incurable and something an addict will have to learn to live with—or die with.

The failure of the war against drugs is largely due to the failure to stop one of the most dangerous drug pushers of all time: the psychiatrist. The sad irony is that he has also established himself in positions enabling him to control the drug rehab field, even though he can show no results for the billions awarded by governments and legislatures. Governments, groups, families, and individuals that continue to accept his false information and drug rehabilitation techniques, do so at their own peril. The odds overwhelmingly predict that they will fail in every respect.

Drug addiction is not a disease. Real solutions do exist.

Clearing away psychiatry’s false information about drugs and addiction is not only a fundamental part of restoring hope, it is the first step towards achieving real drug rehabilitation.

See www.cchr.org . I thank them for informing me of the truth when I was the victim of psychiatric abuse in the name of "treatment" for my "disease".

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Re: Alcoholism is not a "disease" here is why

Postby dorak nob » Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:45 am

    The failure of the war against drugs is largely due to the failure to stop one of the most dangerous drug pushers of all time: the psychiatrist.


i really did want to believe that my substance abuse problem could be cured by some sort of feel better pill. Tried many many different combos and was left feeling indifferent . Stayed depressed on antidepressants , got weird on mood stabilizers . Became nutty on Xanax. I'm sure some people have had marvelous results with these drugs , just not me . So now I am labeled with treatment resistant depression, oh my . I will give the psychiatrist credit for not pushing AA they were the only doctors who didn't see that as an option. My personal opinion is addiction is a choice , some of us go their to escape a miserable episode in ones life.

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Re: Alcoholism is not a "disease" here is why

Postby Ironic » Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:31 am
I agree, dorak. When I use, it is because I choose to.

Haven't used since I turned 23 and planning on keeping it that way!

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Re: Alcoholism is not a "disease" here is why

Postby btnben » Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:25 pm

    Ironic wrote:I agree, dorak. When I use, it is because I choose to.

    Haven't used since I turned 23 and planning on keeping it that way!



Good girl. Keep doing your pushups in the parking lot one day at a time :evil: :evil:

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Re: Alcoholism is not a "disease" here is why

Postby mfc66 » Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:15 pm
In fact I have not abused opiates since I was 23 although I have used other things. I think that this is because I realised that the way I was living back then was suicidal and infant a close friend of mine had died which shook me up. I think many people take drugs and and binge excessively when they are in their teens and twenties but then as the responsibility of life grows they move on. However others like myself , tended to surround themselves with other crazy people and head off for a pint whenever possible and convinced myself that this was acceptable. In way it was, there is a pub in every other street in most Uk cities, and finding others in my part of London who were doing the same thing was no problem. This kind of behaviour seems to be growing in most uk towns where binge drinking especially amongst women seems to be getting out of control. I did not view cocaine in the same way as opiates either probably because it was on offer at all the " right parties" that I went to. I can see I grew a habit over the years and even replaced one substance with another but to call this a disease is simply stupid. What other disease makes people steal to feed it, to jump in there car and drive home turning it into a weapon after six beers or prositute themselves so they can stick needles in their arms. By the way I did not do those things but that was something I often heard in the 12 step rooms and yet I was supposed have the same alcoholic disead mindset as those people. On reflection I cannot think of a more different or bizzare group of people than I found in the average meeting. To give the old queen the same cure as a football hooligan or the lonely house wife based on the ill defined disease theory was just crazy.
http://recoveringfromrecovery.com

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Re: Alcoholism is not a "disease" here is why

Postby Avo » Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:31 am
Akath said:

    Addicts in rehab are taught to refer to themselves as “recovering,” never “cured.”



For whatever reason when I read about AA or related issues I think of cult characteristics. :? This is one to add to the list: You won't get better. Always sick. Always needy. "We" have the remedy but you need us forever.

My former sponsor had still been considering herself as recovering when I left the program. She had more than 15 years sober at the time and still attended several meetings a week. "My name is X and I'm a recovering alcoholic/addict". She often expressed anxiety over mixed meetings but never talked about cravings or anything substance related. The disease to which was troubling her revolved around the symptoms like obsessive thoughts (regarding anything from shopping to step work) and her problems of sponsees. To me it seemed like she was just human and not even suffering from addiction anymore, let alone a disease.

I think AA brings on a bunch of problems, especially if you stick around for a long period.
Pro Empowerment!

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Re: Alcoholism is not a "disease" here is why

Postby Kelly » Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:52 am
I listened closely at meetings, and the reasons that it seems old timers go to AA and NA:
* they mistakenly think their natural human thoughts are not normal, ie if she is mad at her sister she said "that was my disease talking". After 17 yrs clean
* they think they are just different from other people, ie "I always felt different from other people"
* they have mental disorders and attribute their struggles in life to their past addiction, not their current mental disorder (bipolar and depression are common)
* they have mommy/daddy issues which result in unhealthy relationships,and the meetings give them comfort they cannot get anywhere else
* they are otherwise normal people, like me, but they go because they BELIEVE the scare stories. They are afraid if they stop going to meetings then they will "relapse".
* people who are more comfortable living in the past, ie they feel safer in the meetings reliving their drinking/drug use than in moving forward with their lives. All their friends are members of the program.

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Re: Alcoholism is not a "disease" here is why

Postby live_free_or_die » Sun Aug 05, 2012 12:39 am
Addiction is a Choice

by Jeffrey A. Schaler

Below is a link to a book written by Dr. Schaler

I especially like "The Credo of the Free-Will Model"

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr= ... &q&f=false

http://www.schaler.net/
Pro Empowerment - Engage & Enable

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Re: Alcoholism is not a "disease" here is why

Postby Kelly » Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:17 pm
It has never been proved that there is a disease of addiction. Research it. It is a myth, a fallacy. What boggles the mind, is that in the age of science, people just blindly believe this claim.

That's why I wrote in my earlier post why people THINK they have this disease. You have to BELIEVE you have it, because it does not exist.

Just like people thought house prices only go up (how many booms have we had in California and they still don't learn!!), just like in the 1late 1990's all the investors thought internet stocks only go up (even though there was no profit on many of these companies!), I could go on an on. People can be really stupid.

Always question everything.

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Re: Alcoholism is not a "disease" here is why

Postby Avo » Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:14 am
Good point Kelly, about believing AA is a disease - or not.

I question if people believe in the disease theory because they really want to be sick. This lets them off the hook and gives an excuse as to not just change. This also opens the door to being able to believe that they are special and receiving miracles of God when they heal from their drinking obsession.

I'll admit that I wanted to feel special too but I more so want to actually be special. It doesn't work when it's phony, I'd actually be more prone to use over my feelings of living a lie.

5
Addiction Treatment Philosophy / Supportive peer group
« on: August 10, 2012, 07:30:04 PM »
RFR, in spite of itself will eventually come around to the understanding that they are AA and Al-Anon. Just keep reading their members post. AllyB doesn't post there much anymore. Wonder why?





Supportive peer group

Postby AllyB » Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:18 am
First off I apologise if this comes off strangely or perhaps massively immodest considering why I am interested in this subject (as the wife of the drinker) but the more thought I give this and the more time that goes by, the more I see the importance of the supportive peer group. By this I don't mean a group like AA or Life Recovery or SMART but the people who the alcoholic naturally has in his/her life. Their family, their friends and perhaps most importantly, their partner. I think that if these people are able to look beyond 'their alcoholic' and see the person their loved one is, the person they know who is in pain and needing help, help unique to that particular individual. Then that person has a better chance of recovery.

I decided that one night when my husband came home drunk out of his mind. Normally I'd put him to bed in the spare room and go back to what I was doing or go to bed by myself. It was the advice I got from everywhere, from Al-Anon to specialist addiction psychologists and at times it's a good path to take, it's certainly better than starting a row or bursting into tears. But it shouldn't be the only path to take. That particular night he looked so bloody sad that I put him into our bed, got in with him, put my arms around him and we talked. Being drunk he had all his guards down and it was the first time he admitted how scared he was, the anger and hurt that were at the root of his drinking and the fear that it would never stop and he'd lose everything. It let me see him again underneath the arrogant, drunken imbecile I had become used to.

I resolved to stay with him and help him through. To be very honest I didn't think I could help him stop, I thought he was too far gone for that. He had already suffered liver and kidney failure that year and I thought, as did every doctor he saw, that he would be dead within a year. I thought at best I could just be there for him as much as I could while he slowly killed himself. So I told him I loved him and wouldn't leave him, I stopped detaching from him and instead I decided to hold him up as much as I could. And looking back that was the turning point. It gave us both a little bit of the confidence we needed to beat his addiction.

It makes me so bloody angry at Al-Anon and the rest of the psychology industry who have nothing to offer those living with addicts but the advice to detach. Now I do honestly believe that the advice to detach is useful. Living with an active addict is a special kind of hell and being able to switch off from it when you need to is extremely important but it should only be one tool in your arsenal. The most important of which is learning to examine your own instincts and to trust them. Sometimes they will tell you to walk away from it tonight and other times they will tell you when to actively support. I ignored mine for a long time due to all the 'professional' advice I got and things got worse. When I started trusting them things got better, a lot better, very quickly.

6
Addiction Treatment Philosophy / Re: Vicky on RFR- Vicky on Orange
« on: August 07, 2012, 10:11:17 PM »
:bump:

7
Addiction Treatment Philosophy / Vicky on RFR- Vicky on Orange
« on: August 07, 2012, 04:53:18 PM »
This chick is batshit crazy. Still lives a double life.




Vicky on RecoveringFromRecovery
http://recoveringfromrecovery.com/forum ... f=19&t=428

Quote
Saying hello,

Postby Vicky345uk » Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:10 am
Hi there I'm Vicky I'm an alcoholic :( :o oooooppppssss sorry years of brainwashing does that to you!!!!! Lol

I listened to safe recovery the other day for the first time and heard about this website. Rally looking forward to getting to know people and learning.

Vicky

Re: Saying hello,

Postby Vicky345uk » Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:55 am
Hi there, there's quite a hard core step nazi group there, I met some of them when I went to Denmark to listen to chris raymer. How are you doing???

Re: Saying hello,

Postby Vicky345uk » Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:25 pm
Hi everyone,

I walked into my 1 st AA meeting in 1996. I was homeless living in a night hostel and was drinking all day. I drank with other drunks. Someone mentioned at the hostel about going to an AA meeting. I went to the first meeting I was 20 years old. At the time I was shown a lot of love and affection from people and for the 1 st time in my life I felt wanted, thinking about it it was mostly from the old guys. I married a guy within 6months from AA who was 10 years sober. He said he would love me forever and take care of me. I had a daughter with him and the marriage was a disaster. He was very controlling of me and at times would hit me. I would tell people about how I was being abused at home by him and all I got was " we ain't marriage councellors" what utter wankers. The people in AA saw I was depressed and withdrawn yet they did not offer there hand of help to me. They thought my ex husband was wonderful and he could do no frigging wrong.

I remember vividly my ex husband shouting at me because I wouldn't keep my daughter quiet while he was sleeping. I punched and kicked me into a corner, my daughter screaming for him to leave me alone. Bless her she was only 2 at the time. That night we went to a meeting and he shared about compassion tolerance and love ( I fucking kid you not) I did have a friend who I got to know and she did not like my ex husband 1 little bit, she told me " get the fuck out of there" I finally found the courage to leave. The day I moved out he Said would amount to nothing. When I went to AA people shunned me and they blamed me for my marriage ending. That I needed to do the steps again and get on my kness. O fuck just writing this makes me boil. not once did the steps ever help me. I did get a sponsor who told me come of medication and get on the programme. I told her " go fuck yourself you sick bitch" in 2006 I made the decision to take control of my life and leave AA and find the right help that I needed. I was told in AA never trust your instincts, we are worthless, egotistical.
What makes me fucking laugh is when I was homeless and looked a mess people in meetings would say about my ego had to be smashed. Guys I was smelly, dirty, sad, depressed , lost, lonely. How did I have an ego?????

I went to see a cognative behavairal therapist and o boy that changed my life ten fold. I was the total opposite of what AA was telling me. I was told I have empowerment already and that I neede to tap into it, also that I could achieve anything I ever wanted and more. Go out and grab life and enjoy. I am crying now because feeling the emotion of freedom was and is over whelming. That cult nearly ruined me. I tried to kill myself 3 times while in AA and not drinking.

A note on ex husband who said I would amount to nothing. He is drinking, got liver damage and looks a mess. He is on his 4 divorce, even my daughter wants nothing to do with him. The people who thought he was great in AA funnily enough are nowhere to be seen. I on the other hand have a great daughter, I am now married to a wonderful man who's I adore and love immensely. I got myself an education and have a lovely home and great set of 'NORMAL ' friends.

I have to say I am not great at writing at all but just wanted to give you a bit of back ground about me...


I thank the person from the bottom of my heart whoever set this website up xxxx


Vicky on Orange Papers Forum
http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/node/2115?page=1


Quote
Vicky345uk

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 13:20

Permalink
Nope don't answer

The question. Clara why???? I am in no way starting an argument at all but people very much dislike you on here. By coming on here how can that be good for your " recovery" and how is it feeding your soul????




Vicky345uk

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 14:54

Permalink
Clara your so dense, light

Clara your so dense, light must bend around you.... Stop sucking on the devils dick and gooooooo




Vicky345uk

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 14:36

Permalink
It is an anti AA website Hun,

It is an anti AA website Hun, your sucking on the devils dick......smooch



Vicky345uk

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 16:05

Permalink
Sick sad

Aa cult wankers. If these were face to face meetings they would run and never come back. Clara Danny bucket and all the other trolls are all key board warriors.....




Vicky345uk

Mon, 08/06/2012 - 08:38

Permalink
Freedom

Come on Alike come to us anti AA people, get the freedom. I will open my arms out to you and welcome you. You will not need to suck on the devils dick anymore.





Vicky345uk

Mon, 08/06/2012 - 08:38

Permalink
Freedom

Come on Alike come to us anti AA people, get the freedom. I will open my arms out to you and welcome you. You will not need to suck on the devils dick anymore.


Vicky345uk

Mon, 08/06/2012 - 08:38

Permalink
Freedom

Come on Alike come to us anti AA people, get the freedom. I will open my arms out to you and welcome you. You will not need to suck on the devils dick anymore.

8
Cyber Stalking

Postby massive » Thu May 31, 2012 8:50 pm
I am being attacked on orange-papers by jif

the facts are these- this was taken from a lawyers website

Fight Defamation by Anonymous Message Posters
One of the biggest barriers to holding people responsible for Internet defamation is that they typically post messages using anonymous e-mail addresses or screen names. Many people who post damaging content online believe that Web anonymity is a free speech right, or that it makes them immune from prosecution.

Not true.

I would appreciate all of your support. I have contacted Orange If he does not take it down I am going to ask all us here to stop posting there for a time to make a statement.Those of you who will support me I will appreciate.

No its is not true that anyone can say anything about anyone on a blog. Just like in AA where many of us have been sexually harassed. You can not do it on a blog either.

Just got back from the LAPD , it s a civil issue, unless one send it in an email to you directly. Or if its a threat. I have called lawyer that specializes in this. But I can see no one gives a shit. LOL

I dont know what Orange is talking about when he says freedom of speech. Did he forget what he wrote about Bill W? Freedom of speech does not over ride the other laws we have to protect us harassment. GIve me a break. Like he doesnt know that.
I am fucking pissed and Im going to take action to defend my name and character.

9
Re: a mess

Postby PersephoneInExile » Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:46 am
I couldn't deal with the cravings, personally, and am not ashamed to admit it. Cravings for me equaled relapse. Every single time. I realize that sounds just as defeatist as what is said frequently in xA, but when using was still an option (and the alternative was the rooms and PAWS....) it was the only option. I hadn't thought about the cravings mess before I saw what you wrote MFC, but until I managed to kill the cravings point blank, and oh, I did kill them, I was a chronic relapser. Horrible mess of a person.


Re: a mess

Postby btnben » Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:15 am
A blank at a time is bullshit. It creates fear. "I'm going to be OK today, but what about tomorrow". For me, a better way to look at it was direction. I had been travelling along the drinking path for a lot of years. I was far enough down it to see where the final destination was. The choice was - do I want to carry on to that destination or go somewhere else - pretty easy choice even if making it happen wasn't so easy. Once you can see a new destination you can change direction and start walking - it might be a long journey though :D



Re: a mess

Postby dorak nob » Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:39 pm
It's pretty sucky when your realise that "just say no" is really the only answer (or it is for me), if you don't wanna do it, don't do it, it's a bit of a slap in the face when you've spent the best part of a decade being told that meetings, steps, sponsor, all that is in any way going to help... well, here goes nothing, all the best to you guys struggling through opiate withdrawal too, not nice, but I know the science and that can help when your dopamine levels have hit the floor (for what it's worth!).
hello neiko, was wondering what the science you know about dopamine levels while hitting the floor might be? It is so easy to get back into narcotics , especially
if you started at a very young age, it's like knowing the magic cure for human suffering , but the downside is the suffering you are absolutely going to deal with at some point is inevitable. I think the drugs definitely take away the capacity to feel joy. I feel for you and I know how putting a constraint like the word forever can be so overwhelming, I wont use the cliche a blank at a time , it's so overused. maybe just getting on this site and talking will help both of us , I know keeping it a big secret hasn't show any good results. and thanks mfc66 for pulling this together and your comments are very encouraging.



Re: a mess

Postby mfc66 » Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:10 pm
I think most people have many attempts to give up and then something happens that makes them see things differently. I stopped opiates over 2 decades ago after somebody I was close to died. I was young and had not seen somebody die before. That was the reason I stopped. I know that is not a great solution for anyone else but that was what happened to me and it was not what people would call a rock bottom. I was simply scared enough to change. I did not want to go the same way.

However, I did not turn my life around for many years as I switched to drinking heavily for about 12 years and ended up really sick. I was in a worse state than with the drugs and could not keep the act up any more.
It was bloody hard at first but I did not go to rehab and did not stop working. I did go to AA and threw myself into all kinds of methods to keep it together. I had many problems with AA but had a great one on one councillor and got through it. Today I'm happier and fitter than I have ever been and look forward to the future. I never have a great urge to take drugs or drink, only occasional minor ones and would not swap my life now for the old one even though I was was successful in other areas of my life while using.

It is hard, but if you can stop for a bit you have proved you can stop. If you start you know you can stop because you have done it before.Don't get an AA guilt trip but just weigh up what is best for you. Cravings are tough but they do pass given time. You have rough days and the early days can be depressing but you are fighting for the long term benefits. Try to imagine yourself feeling different in the future and imagine what would be better in your life If you manage to change.
Try to imagine yourself in 5 years time as if you have not been using and think where you could be if you carry on. I found looking at those two vastly different images to be really helpful for me.Good luck!



Re: a mess

Postby Avo » Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:39 am
There isn't a rule or even a preference (as far as I'm concerned) about whether people involved in this forum or the cause stay abstinent. As many have noted, some people that leave AA find that they can (or eventually can) moderate their drinking or using.

One of my very many pet peevs about the program is that it generates the thought that drinking is evil. By way of my working the steps as well as the assignments in a 12 step treatment facility, I developed a pattern of remembering my life as one big bad mess of drugging. For a while I lost a lot of fond memories. The truth is that I had a lot of fun during most of my years of partying :o but later in life it changed for me and I suffered from it. It began effecting areas of my life negatively. That made it not worth it anymore.

Now I'm getting all that back and it's nice! I don't have this sick feeling that I wasted all of my life to partying and I don't remember only the bad times. I remember the good times too and allow myself to smile laugh or laugh about them. For me this is the adult and honest approach. It also doesn't make me feel like shit, that I was just a bad girl all those years and doing bad things.

Sorry for the ramble and getting a little off topic there. I pretty much support the choices that other individuals make, even though it might not be my choice.



Re: a mess

Postby btnben » Wed May 30, 2012 11:14 pm
Hi byegood

Admitting you're beat and looking for a solution sounds pretty responsible behaviour to me. Or do you want to beat yourself up some more? :D I know I did.

The last time I quit was horrendous. It took 3 months from first try to actually quitting. I tried everything I could on my own - my god, I'd done it enough times in the past, but nothing worked. In the end I had to go to my doctor - there was simply no other choice. I'm in the UK and things are a bit different as far as rehab etc is concerned. My Dr put me on a 5 day course of valium which, if effect, knocked me out. At the end of 5 day, I still felt like shit, but the cravings were manageable. It took me 5 weeks before I was truly normal physically. I spent weeks having to check on where arms and legs were going - I just couldn't trust them on their own :D

It is possible to stop - there's a few people on here who have done it. For many years it was like a game for me - stop, feel bad for a few days etc. The last time wasn't a game at all. I had to take it seriously - the option wasn't particularly inviting.

You can do it. Keep chatting on here about whatever you want. Anyone know anything about naltraxone? That may be an answer.




Re: a mess

Postby mfc66 » Thu May 31, 2012 12:08 am
I found that I actually stopped when I went to AA but I feel that was because i felt making that step to go there was so awful that I realised the mess my life had become. I dont think the steps or any of that stuff helped but having somewhere to go where people were not drinking and were having the same struggles did help. It may be worth another try if that is what helped in the past and you dont have to get a sponsor or get involved with any god stuff or whatever, just talk to a few people who seem alright and when things are more stable you could pack it in and get on with things.
i did read the trimpy stuff and I found it useful. I think regrding as an adiction as something to fight was good for me as I became determined to beat it and win.



Re: a mess

Postby Avo » Thu May 31, 2012 5:00 am
All of these posts have gotten me to remembering when I quit. All I know about booze is that you should see a doctor because of the dt's. Others in the forum probably know better.

About opiates, rehab is safe from using because they lock you up and you normally can't get anything. That's why it was always so easy for me to stay clean during treatment. It's outside that it becomes difficult.

I withdrew myself at home only once on purpose. The other times were only when I couldn't get any more, and I don't think that counts for this discussion. When I quit the first time noone in my family knew, so I told my husband and kids that I had the flu. For some reason I can hack that easier than the staying clean for the first 6 months following. This is because I knew the physical part would only last about 6 days, with the two middle ones being the worst. I wore a real warm bathrobe because the chills were awful but I could quickly take it off when I got the sweats. I stayed in bed with a pot (and some pot) and my husband was with me most of time. This was a big help for me emotionally because I really need some love and comfort for the anxiety...The other detoxes were in the hospital and they went smoother for me because of the meds. I slept through most of it and they were also giving me a bunch of seroquel and lyrica which made me feel drowzie and zombie like even when I wasn't sleeping. They have a 5 day rule here (that's the longest they can keep you without your consent or a court order) so that is great. I can go in and sign a 5-day which is about all I need and they then have to let me go. The worst was they made me go to AA meetings or I lost my visiting privelges. I got really angry about that but it probably actually helped me get my mind off of my physical part! If you are willing to do a hospital detox that is what I would suggest. I'd make sure first that there were no small print about treatment or making you go to meetings. Also, see how long you would have to stay and if it suits you. This doesn't mean you have to go to rehab, btw..... They have online smart meetings (as I'm sure you know) and you can also check out rational recovery. And yes, I believe it was Ironic (or perse) that mentioned talking here. If you come online and mention that you want to chat at a certain time, I'm fairly certain someone will be around so that you would at least have someone to talk to :) I'd also be able to chat, just send me a message and I'll meet you in the chat room. Just having someone to listen might help. My best to both of you :)




Re: a mess

Postby btnben » Thu May 31, 2012 4:50 pm
Every journey starts with the first step and taking that first step is half of the journey. You're on your way. Hang in there.




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Re: a mess

Postby dorak nob » Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:13 am
i went through a medical detox, since it was a state agency their was no talk of AA , just a recommendation to go to rehab . It was a lockdown faculty which I wasn't used to and kind of freaked me out. The people in charge were pretty cool except the one psychiatrist she asked if I believed in God which I thought was odd, then she laughed at me and said your never gonna get any more pain pills in this town again. You say that to an addict it's like throwing a bone. Anyway the medical part made it very comfortable they knew what they were doing actually got to sleep. I don't think I would go back because I didn't realize once your in the system you are a classified drug abuser. If I had know that I would have detoxed at home.

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Re: a mess

Postby PersephoneInExile » Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:12 am

    dorak nob wrote:so PIE how did you manage to kill those cravings point blank? sounds like you really kicked some cravings ass


Well, the problem with my method is that it involved being tortured by more than a few people....lol....I don't really recommend it. I'm sure it could be done without the agonies I went through, though. I ended up so traumatized after rehab by a series of unfortunate events that I had to fight. I was also IN fight or flight. It's a long story that involves me being id thefted/bank card thefted by a few others "in recovery" of every last shred of money we had. Oddly enough, I had bought into the whole "addict identity" and discarded my own. Then I was around the worst case scenario-types, and I was so outraged at almost losing my home, I'd been raped, discarded, disinherited, etc. The whole 9. It was very extreme, though it only lasted a few months.

What I did involved everything I'd been told not to do, actually. I let it all go, on the one hand, while on the other I worked to build myself back up. My memory was so compromised early on that I wasn't really filled with hate or vengeance, so I worked on the trauma. I started fight training. I started training in general. That made me less scared, and also worked on the anxiety. I cut out every single person who had put me in the position I was in that led me to be robbed, regardless of my fault in it. Only in xA world is someone told to "accept responsibility" for being robbed and raped. I made back everything I'd been robbed of times 30. I hired a lawyer and then filed lawsuits (civil) against those who had done the robbing (the cops could have cared less, actually). Now if they ever DO get jobs, their wages will be garnished and their money will go to me. I cut out anyone, further, who had been negative towards me. Helped the FBI investigation into the detox where I'd been (along with plenty of others, hence the investigation) abused, which resulted in them losing every last cent of government funding they had had (the FBI resulted in this, not my involvement....lol). Re-enrolled in school, dug back into research, got politically active, and more than anything, just worked on being happy.

Long story short, I stayed utterly calm and pulled off a lot of kicking ass and taking names....lol. It did teach me, however, the value of staying utterly calm. Keeping my response measured. Working on being in top form mentally and physically. Even at the beginning of this odyssey, the idea of being not in top form was repulsive to me. Well, I was blamed for everything that happened to me when not at my best. Go figure. Anyway, I let go of all emotion other than sheer joy that I was still alive combined with pure, unadulterated hate and disgust for the people who harmed me. Then I let it all go completely and started aiming for just being happy. Actually, I feel like a wretched and vengeful little bitch after writing this, if for no other reason than I now hate displays of emotionalism....lol. Longer story shorter, I was blamed so severely and punished by so many people, whether directly or not, for my addiction, that I not only decided to let my inner perfectionist and control freak take over to keep me safe, but I also did it to be beyond reproach of anyone who might want to ever blame me again. Then I found tons of great people online who completely understand what I went through, which was one of the best parts of it all!! Then I got the best revenge of all. I'm happy;) I just had some severe ass kicking to do in the process. Then I found tons of great people online who completely understand what I went through, which is the best part. ;) ;) ;)

I have loosened up since this all happened, and certainly never shared with a single person until writing this what I was going through, but that's the long and the short of it. I'm sure you all can tell in that story how heretical my methods were to the traditional ones.....lol.

P.S. I understand if you guys want to move this post, I hadn't planned on writing my life story here to derail everything else being discussed. Hell, delete it if you want. I feel weird posting it, I just feel good for having written it all.
?? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ???????? ????? ?????
???? ????? ?? ??? ????? ???????? ????? ???????
???? ???? ????????? ????????? ??????????

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Re: a mess

Postby dorak nob » Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:42 am
wow PIE that is really an amazing experience to wright about, thank you for being honest because this is gonna stick with me and others who read it for quite a while, you are a strong brave women and I'm relieved to hear you got a grip and your life has given you the joy you deserve. I'm gonna read this several times because it gives me an understanding I really need.

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Re: a mess

Postby PersephoneInExile » Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:18 am
Well, I'm glad it helps at least a little. I have a hard time with the concept of sharing...lol....in rehab I kept just making up completely unrelated stuff to talk about when they'd pester me in group. They even made me carry around a "feelings cube" after a week because I wouldn't share. I was supposed to roll it and talk about whichever emotional state came up. That failed to get me to share as well.

My life since then has become sort of a prolonged argument against powerlessness of any kind. I guess that's my main point. I pick things to do that make me feel empowered and good about myself. I don't allow anything to drag me down. I've been down, and it wasn't terribly fun. When I alter my mind (or my CNS or both), I'm powerless in at least some capacity. So, that's just out. It's hard to crave something that would hinder my ability to get things done these days. Not just my former DOC, anything. I can't be the person I want to be on that stuff. I hope that helps, I could boil it down to just saying that I made living the way I live now such a high priority that I won't sacrifice it for anything else. That does tend to kill cravings really fast.

That said, I'm sure 12 steppers would say it was "tough love" that worked, or a really low bottom, or that I had to grow up, that I "faced my consequences", etc......all of which are true in their own ways--but not for the reasons they thought they were. No one told me that PAWS and the anxiety of that goes away, I was told again and again that I'd always feel that way, that I'd changed my brain permanently and must now be forever on heavy meds for it and in meetings. What BS! It's exactly what Neiko was saying above. Your brain does need a little time to heal. You've been essentially feeding it (if you're on opiates) a bunch of simulated neurotransmitters, it has to reboot after that (so to speak). I know of one non 12 step rehab that also tests hormone levels after detox, and usually they are SO low that supplements are recommended (and prescribed) for at least a month or two to help boost them back up. It's hard when you've kept using solely to NOT get sick and to keep functioning to finally admit that you have to be kind of sick and not at your best for a few months to get off of these things, but it's basically either doing that or going on opiate replacement therapy. But, it's not the end of the world that you have to spend a few months getting back to normal. I add that just because at the time, every time I withdrew, I thought it was just about the end of the world. And it wasn't. I just could've done without the abusive asshattery I was put through during the process, and by that I mean just the steppers, as I obviously could've done without the rest of it....lol.

Well, there's my speech of the day. Sorry I got so darned verbose all of the sudden. I just hope it helps whoever reads it.

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X-Sponsor & AA friends calling & coming by
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X-Sponsor & AA friends calling & coming by

Postby rainbow » Mon May 28, 2012 5:12 am
OK, so I know I'm an intelligent woman, who can make up my own mind to do things & I can make my own decisions, but I could really use some advice right now. My x-sponsor called tonight. I panicked when I saw it was her on the caller ID, and I let it go to the answering machine. Now, I really do like this woman in many ways, but I don't really want to talk to her yet. I'm not ready. Hmm, I guess that's my answer right there, huh? AA has worked for her for 33 years, and I'm really happy it does -- for her. I kind of feel like a chicken-$hit for not calling her anymore -- have only called her once, and I did it when I knew she was at work & I left a message.

A few of my AA friends have come by and -- some of them I will see -- but then other times I pretend that I'm not home. Curtains shut & quiet as a mouse I am until they leave. It's because I'm scared of some of them. Afraid they'll try to sway me back into their rooms. Afraid they'll start in on their cult talk & propaganda & Guilt. They can't sway me -- I'm done. There's no going back. I think I just need some time. I sure do feel like a chicken right now, though. :| Or maybe I'm just protecting myself. X-sponsor said she hoped I was doing well (and I am). She said she hopes we can connect up again soon...or maybe someday. Maybe. I dunno just yet.

Tonight was birthday night. My friend Diana celebrated her 25th year of sobriety. She came over the other day, we talked, she asked if I was coming to the birthday. I told her I was very proud of her & happy for her, but I just can't go back to that fellowship. She understood. She doesn't exactly enjoy herself there either, she confided. She takes what she needs from there & has a way of leaving the BS there.

When friends ask me why I walked out, I've been real careful to not bash AA or call it a cult to them. I respect their decision to go there. If it works for them, great. But if it isn't working for them, all I can do is hope they wake up & see the Truth someday.

bock bock bock
It's time to OCCUPY AA.

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Re: X-Sponsor & AA friends calling & coming by

Postby btnben » Mon May 28, 2012 10:51 am
It's not easy rainbow - especially at the start. Remember, you are just one person and AA has 75 years of propaganda behind it and a lot of devout followers. I think this is a great topic, because, often when people leave AA they leave the major part of their social life behind. It's not easy in the early days.

I found that the best way was to say nothing until asked. If someone then asked why I didn't go to meetings I simply said I thought it was rubbish. Obviously, how I said "rubbish" depended on who it was and how much I wanted to wind them up - no-one said I had to be perfect :D

The word quickly gets around and people leave you alone. Remember all the "love bombing" when you first went to AA? Just see how many AA friends remain after you leave. I think they call it "true colours" don't they? :evil:

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Re: X-Sponsor & AA friends calling & coming by

Postby istj04 » Mon May 28, 2012 10:04 pm
The ones who are "stalking you" (for lack of a better term!) are doing so because they want to see if YOU ARE STILL SOBER (they believe the bullshit, that you can't be sober OUTSIDE the "rooms", "at a meeting", or engaging in the 24-7 co-dependance that IS "12-Steppism". All you have to do to keep the "cultists" away is:

1.) Inform them that you NO LONGER MEET MEMBERSHIP CRITERIA ("Desire to stop drinking") as you have ALREADY STOPPED, STAYED STOPPED, and ARE CONTINUING TO STAY STOPPED!

2.) Remain sober. Now! Now! And NOW!

3.) If they keep coming by, then THREATEN THEM WITH ALCOHOL! Put it on your front doorstep, and tell them they must drink it before they come in, or ring your doorbell, or call you! ;) Then if they do, laugh and point at them because YOU STAYED SOBER, and THEY DID NOT! ;) Then tell them to get their asses to the co-dependent, cultist "meeting" that they clearly have no life without! And to never call you again. You outrank them. You are INDEPENDENT AND SOBER! They are not, will not, and cannot be, or remain such!

4.) Film/record whatever interaction you have with these people, and put it on You Tube, thus BLOWING THEIR "ANONYMITY", and exposing them for the cultists they are! That ought to stop them!

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Re: X-Sponsor & AA friends calling & coming by

Postby Dare031 » Tue May 29, 2012 1:53 am
When I broke from the cult, I told my sponsor that his services as such, were not required any longer. I also told him that if he wanted to talk fishing, cars, or sports, it was cool with me. He intially wanted to know how my dry drunk was going. I firmly informed him that I was no longer a member, and that the condition of not discussing AA was NOT negotiable. Long story short, both he and my former cult members simply faded away into history. I no longer wanted what they had, and they went away. Not answering your door, or telephone, is not cowardly. It is totally your right not to answer both your door, and your phone. Nobody owns you. Take your time. You own no one an explanation. Your life is your business. Take care of yourself. :D
Blind respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth. - Dr. Albert Einstein

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Re: X-Sponsor & AA friends calling & coming by

Postby teatotaler » Tue May 29, 2012 6:16 pm

    istj04 wrote:The ones who are "stalking you" (for lack of a better term!) are doing so because they want to see if YOU ARE STILL SOBER (they believe the bullshit, that you can't be sober OUTSIDE the "rooms", "at a meeting", or engaging in the 24-7 co-dependance that IS "12-Steppism". All you have to do to keep the "cultists" away is:

    1.) Inform them that you NO LONGER MEET MEMBERSHIP CRITERIA ("Desire to stop drinking") as you have ALREADY STOPPED, STAYED STOPPED, and ARE CONTINUING TO STAY STOPPED!

    2.) Remain sober. Now! Now! And NOW!

    3.) If they keep coming by, then THREATEN THEM WITH ALCOHOL! Put it on your front doorstep, and tell them they must drink it before they come in, or ring your doorbell, or call you! ;) Then if they do, laugh and point at them because YOU STAYED SOBER, and THEY DID NOT! ;) Then tell them to get their asses to the co-dependent, cultist "meeting" that they clearly have no life without! And to never call you again. You outrank them. You are INDEPENDENT AND SOBER! They are not, will not, and cannot be, or remain such!

    4.) Film/record whatever interaction you have with these people, and put it on You Tube, thus BLOWING THEIR "ANONYMITY", and exposing them for the cultists they are! That ought to stop them!




THAT IS AWESOME!!! If I could scream with laughter and shout, "Right on!" so that it could be heard all across this country, I would! I esp. love that part about putting alcohol on the doorstep and telling them they have to drink it as a requirement to even ring the doorbell! :lol: :D :!: Also, they are still cult members. IMO, no one owes those cultists a darned thing - not a phone call, not a contact, not even a final "Goodbye, good luck, and goddamn ya!" (Well, maybe that last part...LOL). I view them as cult members when they were in their ROOMZ, and they are still cult members outside of their ROOMZ - yep, that even includes running into them at the grocery store. Here's a zinger that works for me if, for some reason, they try to talk to me. I look them in the eye like they are excrement, and I say: "You must be mistaking me for someone else." I haven't run into many of them over the last year or so, but if they try to talk to me, their "serenity" WILL get disturbed! No cultist has any individual's best interests at heart - it doesn't matter what they say or how "nice" they act (see "love-bombing" in istjo4's post). IMO, your safety and well-being - on all levels - comes FIRST! Sorry for rambling on. Peace. :)

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Re: X-Sponsor & AA friends calling & coming by

Postby massive » Wed May 30, 2012 6:08 am
OMG RAINBOW what a fantastic post! I was laughing so hard at some of the great feedback you were given here as well. I think you know whats right. Stay away and get strong so when you want, not when they demand it, you will know what exactly to say in time.

When I left, a few contacted me through facebook saying they missed me there and it wasnt the same without me but they did not even pick up the phone. Maybe 4 are really friends in a room filled with 40-50 a night. Only one called me on the phone. I was not surprised. They became to ice me out 8 months prior over the Make AA Safer Issue that a group of us worked really hard on.

But when I left, I had been planning my escape for months, about 4 to be exact. I debated just leaving without saying anything.
Its not my style. So IN january of 2011 I started going every other week to the only meeting I went to ...a women's stagg. We did alot of the Make AA Safer stuff together so they knew what I went through as a GSR. I started going to Smart meetings and I would share about SMart and Orange papers every time I shared. Always a few women would come up to me asking me about " what is that Smart thing you talked about" I was planting seeds on purpose.

I took my last cake in early May. I asked someone to do the treasury for me every other week. And for the first time I didnt care or feel guilty. It was fantastic to feel this way after 36 years of feeling so obligated to AA to be of service. Bloggers on ST debated whether I would really leave. I had alot of support from that blog. Thanks Ilse and Mark for that too.

So that last night in May 2011, I waited till the last share, and I raised my hand and I say "Im done. I had it. That AA is so full of shit and NY AA and the area I no longer believed in any of it and that I was gonna go to Smart and I felt like my youth was stolen from me" ...on and on I went. I felt so relieved.
(really I only spoke for 3 minutes) they have a timer there... LOL There were actually some tearful women, some phoney smiles, some genuine hugs, some ignored me and passed me by. Overall it was really good. I felt great. I left there with my head held high! I did not give a fuck. I had done so much fucking service in AA in was pathetic.

Thank God I believe in some Buddhist aspects so now I believe none of that service was wasted . It was done for me, my children and my family. No genuine service that we do for mankind is ever wasted. ( now that is another big lie they tell newcomers. That we have to be of service to stay sober....that is Bullshit!)

But at first RAINBOW I was furious about the amount of time I was in AA and what a fool, koolaid drinking BB thumber /sponsor I was. Although I like to think I was special and did believe in therapy and every type of outside work possible. Clara from op I was never :)

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Re: X-Sponsor & AA friends calling & coming by

Postby massive » Wed May 30, 2012 6:15 am
istg04 btbben all of you had me laughing on the floor! Thanks for this thread rainbow ;)

oh yea , then I went to Hawaii in the summer and invited all my old best buds to dinner. Usually I had a little AA meeting in my house. Instead we ate, then while having dessert I said I have an annoucement. I have left AA and this is why. I pulled out my Make AA Safer pamphlet and my newest postcard which says

"Is 12 Step not working for you"? and the list of non 12 step choices on the back.

They all laughed and said, Thats Monica! a rebel still at heart. I have know them since I was 18 and they are real friends. But that was back then in the 70's. One friend has a husband who is not my friend and he sad there with that stupid judgmental face. I will never invite him again.

sorry so long .....

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Re: X-Sponsor & AA friends calling & coming by

Postby nieko » Wed May 30, 2012 7:03 am
Oh this one did make me laugh!

Since I left in January I've had a few of them call me, I tell them various things depending on how I'm feeling at the time.
It was the CA world convention not so far from me the weekend just gone, Chris R and a load of crazies from Primary Purpose where there apparently, I was gonna go, just on the Saturday and mostly for the dance, my ex-sponsor sent me a text on the Saturday morning, I haven't spoken with her in months.
All the text said was something like "hi, are you coming to the convention" (I even got a kiss on the end of the text, love bombing?) just the idea of seeing her and hearing people talking about inventory and resentments and trying to out "well" each other, it is CA afterall, made me decide I just couldn't face it.

I don't think you were a chicken, I think you were exercising some discernment, there's no reasoning with some of them, especially the ones who are super programmed. Some of them are okay but they speak riddles. The term "ex" implies ex for a reason, move house, or put electric fence around it or yeah, leave liquor on the doorstep - I particularly liked that one!

The step 10 promises have not yet been 100% fulfilled for me as regards steppers, yes, I recoil from them as from a hot flame but I am not in a position of neutrality, safe and protected by ashtray God, the problem has not yet been removed, I've just removed myself from the problem.

Remember it's not their fault, they were born that way ;) it's amazing they can even make it to your doorstep considering they are "men who have had their legs cut off" - wow to think of all that paper they're going to have to waste writing inventory on you...
People come and go so quickly around here - Dorothy Gale

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Re: X-Sponsor & AA friends calling & coming by

Postby Vicky345uk » Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:02 am
I remember going see chris raymer at Denmark convention, what a fucking insulting moron. GDP I hate those people

Xx

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Re: X-Sponsor & AA friends calling & coming by

Postby dorak nob » Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:44 am
after leaving AA got really drunk one night, one night. So next day get a call from concerned AA friend. How the hell did he know what the hell I was up to? Then I remembered at the time my wife was in Al Anon , she had a sponsor. So happy she quit that crazy making cult, I swear I would quit every substance know to man or woman to keep my wife from Al Anon. She doesn't need any part of Bill Wilsons guilt inducing cult, what the hell I was the one that got drunk.


Re: X-Sponsor & AA friends calling & coming by

Postby BB Kate » Wed Aug 01, 2012 8:05 am
It seems to be all or nothing with XA members.

Noone bothers to call me, including people i thought i had really solid friendships with. When i told a coupel of them i wasn't going to AA anymore, they said "we'll miss you" - it was like it was my funeral or something!

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Anyone up for visiting an online recovery forum?
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Anyone up for visiting an online recovery forum?

Postby DeConstructor » Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:55 am
It might be fun if we could get a trusted roster of our people who might be interested in attending online recovery meetings and forums together. Perhaps even call in radio shows.

We could shake things up a little. I think we would need a master list of our people, safe from trolls or code words so the surprise factor would remain.

Could be some fun, and could change how a lot of people view the AA faith and recovery industry.

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Re: Anyone up for visiting an online recovery forum?

Postby btnben » Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:01 pm
Hi DeCon

One word of warning :D Just over a year ago it was reported in the OPF that a troll had become a moderator on the LifeRing site and was creating havoc. A few op us on the OPF decided that we were going to have a bit of fun on a pro-AA forum and did so on the e-AA site. We all got banned for life within a day :evil:

The problem was that one of the members of the e-AA site was a certain Marietta Davis, who followed us over to the OPF. Despite eventually being banned, we're all sure she has since returned in the guise of becket. Although troll tactics will not be tolerated on this forum, it is worth remembering that dealing with the trolls is a time overhead for the moderators and the site owner. Just a thought.

Remember Newton's third law of motion :D

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Re: Anyone up for visiting an online recovery forum?

Postby DeConstructor » Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:38 pm
Of course we would be banned shortly from an online forum. Although that could be easily handled by going to the forum through a proxy or TOR network.

Maybe call in radio shows? Pro AA shows on blogtalkradio? I would think it would be important that this forum, OPF etc never be mentioned so we do not have the marietta situation occur again.

We had a situation like that a couple of years ago with a call in show in florida regarding AA/NA and the use of a city park and issues with garbage, parking, assholes etc. A few of us called in and I think the host was a bit shocked.

I continue to do this because I keep thinking about when I was going through my problems if ONE person would have stated anything negative about the AA faith or the recovery industry, things would have been quite different.

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Re: Anyone up for visiting an online recovery forum?

Postby btnben » Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:13 pm

    DeConstructor wrote:Of course we would be banned shortly from an online forum. Although that could be easily handled by going to the forum through a proxy or TOR network.

    Maybe call in radio shows? Pro AA shows on blogtalkradio? I would think it would be important that this forum, OPF etc never be mentioned so we do not have the marietta situation occur again.

    We had a situation like that a couple of years ago with a call in show in florida regarding AA/NA and the use of a city park and issues with garbage, parking, assholes etc. A few of us called in and I think the host was a bit shocked.

    I continue to do this because I keep thinking about when I was going through my problems if ONE person would have stated anything negative about the AA faith or the recovery industry, things would have been quite different.



Then I agree with you DeCon - I'm always up for putting a few noses out of joint. I must admit though, in all honesty , that our foray into e-AA was just to create mischief... :evil:

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Re: Anyone up for visiting an online recovery forum?

Postby DeConstructor » Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:20 pm
mischief is not necessarily bad.

If looking at it from the standpoint that the AA organization operates in a 'recruit mode' actively discourages membership from reading critical information of the organization, claims NO responsibility for the complications caused by the misinformation they promote, and on and on and on.

They deserve some criticism. They should apologize and humbly ask for contrition for the bad things they have caused-such as the recovery industry.

I would not call it 'mischief' I would call it 'accountability'

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Re: Anyone up for visiting an online recovery forum?

Postby btnben » Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:27 pm

    DeConstructor wrote:mischief is not necessarily bad.

    If looking at it from the standpoint that the AA organization operates in a 'recruit mode' actively discourages membership from reading critical information of the organization, claims NO responsibility for the complications caused by the misinformation they promote, and on and on and on.

    They deserve some criticism. They should apologize and humbly ask for contrition for the bad things they have caused-such as the recovery industry.

    I would not call it 'mischief' I would call it 'accountability'



You've convinced me :D

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Re: Anyone up for visiting an online recovery forum?

Postby massive » Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:09 am
Decon I wish someone from here lived near me ...I want to do this is a live ftf meeting in west hollywood.

I went into "In The Rooms" OMG they were so EVIL!! they started posting about me my real name about my husband my kids.

I would call into a radio show and maybe I would join you
let me know if you do it.

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Re: Anyone up for visiting an online recovery forum?

Postby kehsciences » Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:20 am

    DeConstructor wrote:Could be some fun, and could change how a lot of people view the AA faith and recovery industry.



So could releasing a live tiger into a meeting. There's plenty of skepticism in the rooms and, really, trying to shake things up is another way of staying in AA. I go through spurts when I feel the same way before I realize I'm thinking about AA almost as much as people who are actually in the program. Which is weird.

This isn't to say that I don't understand the urge. I do. But this isn't Fight Club and there might be more to an alternative to approach to recovery than spending time trying to introduce critical thinking modes into the AA paradigm. It's not as if those guys are building an army. They're building a bunch of city-states of people who know how to brew big pots of coffee whilst spouting a hastily rewritten version of the Ten Commandments.

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Re: Anyone up for visiting an online recovery forum?

Postby Dare031 » Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:35 am
No thanks, I'll pass on this invite. I applaud you for thinking about doing something like this, and I say fill your boots. Dissension is a powerful tool. I myself have no desire to do so. The thought of going to any 12 step meeting makes my skin crawl. I will come here and post my thoughts for any who care to read them. I honestly do not have the time, nor ambition to deal with serenity hornets. It is only the truly converted who stay, and they can keep their death cult. I will not devote my valuable time to wrestling AA wannabes and gurus. The internet is quickly becoming an encyclopedia for any who have a computer and reading ability. People can make up their own minds, and most do. Our Western society is rapidly discovering the true nature of wilsonism and its cronies. This is definitely due in part, to the efforts of those who are speaking in the public arena. I applaud their efforts. We all have a part to play if we so choose. Speaking on this website is my contribution to the cause.

The age of magical thinking is finally dying. Most civilized people have determined that their lives should be based on science, law, and medicine. Along with its death will go most of the religious cults of the world. It is only a matter of time and education. Secular societies are growing within every country. Some fast, others slowly. I could provide articles and papers regarding these facts, but this is not a university lecture or paper. It is just my opinion based on personal experience and topical research on my part. Feel free to Google the topic on your own.

Now that I am free, I have no time for AA and it's stinking dogma.
Blind respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth. - Dr. Albert Einstein

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Re: Anyone up for visiting an online recovery forum?

Postby rainbow » Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:51 am

    This isn't to say that I don't understand the urge. I do. But this isn't Fight Club ....



I hope this isn't what y'all call derailing. I have a question. Is Fight Club worth watching? I keep seeing folks referencing it. I haven't seen it yet, mainly because violence or scary movies give me nightmares. I still get creeped out when I think of Silence of the Lambs & Helter Skelter. :o

    mischief is not necessarily bad.



I agree. Mischief is fun sometimes. 8-) :twisted:

Re: Anyone up for visiting an online recovery forum?

Postby BB Kate » Wed Aug 01, 2012 8:10 am
releasing a live tiger into an AA meeting.... hmmmmm....

12
Addiction Treatment Philosophy / RFR and Mfc66 does sprituality!!
« on: August 04, 2012, 11:23:33 PM »
Spirituality

Postby Vicky345uk » Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:08 pm
Hello people,

I was just wondering does anyone on this site have some kind of faith or spirituality in their lives???? I do meditate everyday and I sometimes take a trip up to the Buddhist centre when I can, I go because it's such a beautiful peaceful place. When I was in AA I had this I image in my mind of God just loving and caring for alcoholics and we were special ( frigging brainwashed) now I feel a little distant from God since leaving AA. Does that make sense?????

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Re: Spirituality

Postby leon » Sat Aug 04, 2012 3:43 pm
Hi Vicky,i was pretty angry when i first left a/a,i thought "how could this god have me drinking again" but i swore i'd rather die of drink than go back to the asylum of a/a, about 7 years ago i got myself a computer,never had a clue how to even turn it on,i saw that there were many people who felt the same way about a/a as i did.

Eventually i got myself sober (coming up on 5 years) no groups or counselling, just me,my belief in god is very strong today, i don't believe in ANY! organised religions but i try to live a fairly decent life,i met an old lady in weston super mare a few years ago and she said to me "let your life be a prayer" that has stuck in my head and i try to do it most of the time, i aint no saint but i'm getting close :lol:

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Re: Spirituality

Postby Vicky345uk » Sat Aug 04, 2012 4:00 pm
Wow like that, yeah I don't want to be part of an organised religion again. I am doing a reiki course in a couple of weeks so really looking forwad to that xx

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Re: Spirituality

Postby smartypants » Sat Aug 04, 2012 4:12 pm
my spirituality has changed ten fold over the last year. to the point were A.As god didnt fit my idea of god, for instance i dont pray to my god, im hear to learn or remember hes left me to it and itll all be ok in the end. A.A has alot of prayers and i see this as childish. thanking him all the time. i just get on with it.

I totaly know how you feel though. when i tried to leave A.A over a year ago. my god was the A.A god and i couldnt connect with it atall. i hadnt just left my support network but left my god too. OMG HOW BRAINWASHED! with no support and feeling disconected i ran back to aa. but i soon started reading spiritual books by deepak chopra and conversations with god (you can get them realy cheep on amizon) this compleatly changed my view on god, after that i felt disconected in meetings lol. and since i left i still have my faith.
Be happy for no reason, like a child. If you are happy for a reason, you're in trouble, because that reason can be taken from you.


Deepak Chopra

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Re: Spirituality

Postby mfc66 » Sat Aug 04, 2012 4:37 pm
i use meditation a lot and have found it useful but my experience in AA has completely turned me away from religion and I do not feel the need to search for any faith although many do find comfort from it. I do not come from a religious background and rejected it pretty young along with father christmas but did try to find something when I was desperate to recover from addiction and told to do so. However, praying only made me feel self conscious and stupid as I felt i was simply talking to myself and as the days and meetings went by I found the whole concept of handing over to a higher power bizarre and pointless. That view has grown over time and strengthens every time I read anything written by an AA member.
http://recoveringfromrecovery.com

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Re: Spirituality

Postby silenced » Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:04 am

    mfc66 wrote: However, praying only made me feel self conscious and stupid as I felt i was simply talking to myself and as the days and meetings went by I found the whole concept of handing over to a higher power bizarre and pointless. That view has grown over time and strengthens every time I read anything written by an AA member.



Are the writings of AA members about higher powers and powerlessness the only things that reinforce your idea that religion - or spirituality - is pointless? Or do any discussions or articles or books about these topics do so? Is it just recoil about AA?

13
A bit about MFC

Postby mfc66 » Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:51 pm
I was thinking earlier that maybe I should put a bit about myself in the introduction part here as although many know me from sites such as Stinking thinkin and the Orange Papers forum, we are starting to get people coming here from other places. It may be a good thing if some of the other members that have come from other sites do this as well if they have a bit of time as it helps people get to know each other a bit before bumping into each other in the chat etc.

Anyway, I got into using drugs and alcohol when I was about 16 and still at school. I was very rebellious and was influenced by many crazy musicians etc and wanted the wild life. I was living in a really pleasant area outside London and had a great education butI was not interested in conforming in any way. I always liked excitement and I was into racing motorcycles from an early age but a couple of bad crashes made me look for other areas to get my kicks and music started to take over. I got in with many musicians who were a lot older than me and had many bad habits and I picked the up fast. I realised that the straight life was not for me and so found work in several of the large studios in London . I had some success while still very young but this lead to many other problems. I was traveling a lot and had access to all kinds of things and it got out of hand and I felt the pull of addiction.

I was caught at this stage between knowing what I was doing was wrong and extremely harmful but at the same time wanting to go on. I got the drug thing under control after somebody close to me died and I was very shaken up by it. He did not seem to be a heavy user by my standards. The music scene was changing and I decided to change direction in career and went into another part of the entertainment industry. I stopped the hard drugs but instead of looking at myself and growing up I took up drinking heavily as a substitute. this went on for another ten years and was chaos but on the outside it looked like I was doing well. I was winning awards for work and had a glamourous girlfriend but then the crazy life style caught up with me and the whole lot fell apart. I began to realise that the people I was with and life I accepted as normal were actually causing me a great deal of problems and I had to take some time off and get away. This was a very painful time and I was lucky to get through it. My relationship which was pretty destructive broke down and I had to find somewhere to live, but could no longer afford the prestigious areas I had become used to or the rest of the lifestyle then. This made me more depressed and the fact that I still had some sort of income coming in through previous work meant I did not concentrate on getting myself together as well as I could have and did not do many of the things that my Dr advised. The following few years were hard and although I managed a few years here and there without drinking and generally felt better about things, if something happened I could easily fall back into my old ways.

At one point my career took off again and I was doing well but I fell apart due to the pressure and the drinking got out of control. I was looking ill, and having blackouts etc and knew I could not continue.My liver was damaged and doctors told me to stop. I had to decide between falling apart totally or really sorting myself out. I stopped drinking and went to AA. I thought it was strange but was really broken and went along with what was said. I was drawn towards the cult type meetings that are talked about on the AA Cult-watch site and with which many have had problems. They are hard core step meetings similar to the type of thing Clancy does in America. I had mixed with musicians who were religious in the past and thought I could get some kind of connection through AA. I had also come into contact with members of the Scientology group and I was wary about getting into something like that. Anyway I worked the steps and became quite evangelical about he whole thing and could not understand why people could not get the program. I said the right things at the right meetings and spoke at a London convention after a year. I did a lot of service work and was accepted into the middle of the AA group.

At the same time I was having more contact with people who I respected who had got heir life together but had left AA. I could see that those who had walked away after a while and used other methods to help them live life seemed so much saner than those old timers in the rooms. They did not need a higher power or any of hat rubbish and had moved on. They could go onstage without praying and carry on normal conversations we talked about AA and although I was not ready to risk my sobriety by leaving a this point it did sat to make me question if was being fed a lie. I also met somebody who had escaped from scientology after being involved in that through addiction and his opinions were similar to those who had left AA.

I then had problems with anonymity in the rooms. The meetings I was going to were big and had much socializing after them and you were encouraged to be part of that rather than hang out with normal people. I became aware that there were things that were common knowledge, that I had not shared in meetings and could only come from my very controlling sponsor. I had a real go at him and went for a while without a sponsor. In fact when I got another one I never really trusted him ad again he was just another old time stepper that had no real solutions, just a load of slogans and praying as the solution to anything. I found the while idea of praying ridiculous. It did nothing for other that to concentrate my mind on things that were troubling me and it made me feel stupid doing it. I was not living in the bronze age and expecting a miracle to get me well.

There were other incidents in the rooms and I realised that the level of sanity in the average AA group was very low and I was sitting with a load of cranks with many problems that were not being helped. I saw many relapsed others give out appalling advice about medication, which caused so many problems. I stayed because of the threat of loosing my sobriety which was one of the many lies pushed by those in the rooms. I carried on trying to make the stupid steps work but I just felt worse and worse. I had another idiot poke his nose into my life and start contacting people around me. He was a pain to women in the rooms as well and was typical of the immature men that hang out in AA, year after year. They would never be able to form a relationship outside the rooms and were jealous of those who could.

Anyway the depression got too bad and I had help from my GP who sent me to a councillor and gave me some antidepressants which helped. I then was told about a great therapist by somebody in AA who was more broadminded than most and could see that Bill’s old methods were causing me problems. I was advised to leave AA by this doctor and we developed a program that helped me, it was certainly not a one size fits all solution based on faith healing. I read many books on the subject and found the orange papers. I realised many others had reached the same conclusion about AA but I had not been able to connect with them because I had been so dependent on AA that I had not considered other approaches.

I read Trimpy’s book as well as many by Stanton Peele and talked about these and other issues with professionals. My depression lifted almost as soon as I made this breakthrough and walked away from those rooms. I tapered off the anti depressants and have not needed them in the years that followed. I read books on how the mind worked including one called “The Mind and the Brain: Neuroplasticity and the Power of Mental Force.”
This talked about mindfulness and I started to do that. I found that I was able to relax more and that I could get my life in perspective and stop the constant self criticism that had happened during my time in AA and was causing me so many problems. I began exercising which helped and live a much more healthy lifestyle which also helps the mental side. I looked at things like self hypnosis and read books by Paul Mckenna etc and took o some of his ideas. I found some of it to be a bit to new age for me but on the other hand many of techniques work well as an introduction to meditating and do have an effect on the subconscious. At a most basic level I feel that spending a bit of time listening to one of the hypnotic type recordings for 20 mins will give you a pause in your day where you are being kind to yourself and this will make a change. It is important to dump the stress, and this is one of the things that helped me. I don't use those techniques as much these days as I have leveled out and that is a result of living a less crazy lifestyle and having a great personal relationship. I live in a great area these days and have more opportunities in life than most. I am very lucky to have this.

I started this site because I felt it was something that many people would use to get in touch with others who also would like to try more progressive recovery techniques than the old 12 step model that is pretty ineffective. I had seen other sites such as Stinkin Thinking and the orange papers forum get a good response but was aware that some of the more extreme 12 step members do attempt to spoil these place and derail threads. I felt the abuse on the Orange papers was getting ridiculous and set this up in a day. The forum is growing but is not as dynamic as some others because it is not full of arguing. I don't want those type of threads here as they often will take over the whole forum and other more important issues become hidden. The chat room has been a major success and people can go there and contact others in real time and build friendships without the problems associated with meetings , etc. Hopefully things will get bigger in the future, but I enjoy popping in to the site from time to time to see what is going on. I have also had the chance to talk with many members on Skype and this has also been rewarding.

Hopefully the site will develop over time and people will share the things that worked for them (and those that didn’t) so others can learn. There is also a fair amount of AA bashing and stories about the criminal element that can sometimes be found in meetings as this serves to warn people. I was far too trusting when I went into the rooms and I realise that the traditions are totally useless in big city meetings etc. So many in the rooms are more concerned with dogma rather than helping people and others just go to control others. Overall I feel that the 12 step methods are similar to religion and have retarded the recovery world just as religion has tried to fight progress in many other areas of health. I have no time for the disease theory and feel it is simply and excuse for people to not take responsibility for their actions. It makes things easy when you have something to blame.

I feel that many methods are superior to AA but are not in widespread use but at the end of the day no one method will guarantee success, and only a radical decision to take responsibility for your life and force changes will have any effect. Wallowing in self pity and believing in a higher power will not help many and will often lead to years of white knuckling in the rooms.

It is great to be free of all that and I don't really want to be part of a recovery group a such,but at the same time it is good communicate with others who have explored other methods and get to know people in a friendly environment without having the comments of up themselves steppers to worry about. Sorry I have been rambling, but I was just putting things down as I thought of them, and have had to leave so much out which maybe I will talk about in the future.

14
Addiction Treatment Philosophy / Mfc66 owner and admin, resident tard.
« on: August 04, 2012, 11:01:22 PM »
http://recoveringfromrecovery.com/forum ... ?f=4&t=164

Topic locked
1 post • Page 1 of 1
mfc66 post which some of you chose to ignore

Postby recovering » Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:38 am
I have had enough of this! This site is not a place for people to argue about how another site is done and is causing ME problems. I have pointed out there is a chatroom etc but some of you just think you can come here and post what you want with no regard for the rest of the site or my wishes. I have put a lot of time into getting this going and have tried to make it a safe place but some of you have nothing better to do than come on here to argue in public and to have a go at another site. I think we have all experienced problems which is why I created this site, but I have no wish to have a site where a huge amount of discussion is about trolls on another site that is unmoderated and nothing to do with me. I want to move on from that whole thing and start a fresh. This site is run differently to OP and ST and I wish to avoid the in fighting and problems that occurred their because of the presence of those who wished to derail and cause offence. If you want to talk about trolls there is a chat room there is a chatroom and pm but I do not wish it to be on the front page of my site and I have very legitamite reasons for that.

I do not wish to start banning or suspending people but Im getting fed up and am not going to stand back and let the site turn into another nasty, full of hate site. I will give people the benefit of the doubt today as they may not have read my previous post but I do not wish to have a thread about another site's problems here as I do not feel it is appropriate. The thread is now locked and will be moved or deleted soon.


Here is the original post-


Let me make it clear that I do not support any of the abuse that went on over at the Orange Papers forum and I will not allow it here.
Orange chooses to run his forum in a different way to me and in fact the main reason I set this up was because people like Massive were getting a lot of abuse and I was aware that many wanted to talk about issues that affect them in recovery after leaving a 12 step group. I did not set this forum up so people could come here from that forum and slag off those they do not like. By talking about trolls on here you are setting this forum up as a target for them . There has also been days when many of the new posts are about trolls which are nothing to do with this site. This making people jumpy and there has been a certain amount of finger pointing and paranoia which will have the effect of putting new people off coming here.
I have already had pm messages from new people asking what a troll is and that makes it difficult to make a case for this site being a safe place.
I understand that many have had a hard time and have had unpleasant things happen as a result of the conduct of a few on several other sites but I do not wish to have the problems of other sites being the focus of this group. As far as I can see this is the only thread where people are having a go at each other and that has an unpleasant atmosphere and that is not good.
Other areas of the site are building slowly and people are coming together in way that has not happened before. People are asking for support and others are giving support. I am surprised in a way , but then I think that perhaps many were unable to have a voice in other places even though there were like minded people to talk to because they were afraid of the reaction of others. After all, that was one of the reasons many of us left the rooms - they were full of people who were judgemental and who wished to control others. I want the people who have not been getting any support and who are having a hard time be the focus of this place. They have a right to free speech without hassle and the right to join a forum and get to know people without being suspected of being some arsehole AA member that wants to break up the group. If you have a problem with anybody on here I would prefer it being dealt with in a sensitive way, so perhaps pm me or a moderator. I do not wish to see accusations and the problems of other places being projected on here. It simply puts people off and makes the whole lot of us look paranoid. Anyone who looks at the front page which is the portal to the site and sees posts about stalking and trolls will probably just leave. It is not a reflection of the rest of the site.
The focus should be on Deprogramming from recovery methods that have had an adverse effect on many and sharing ideas on how to get well and improve your quality of life. That will involve some slagging off of AA and the like and that is fine because many feel that way. It is good to get some of those feelings out of you and to heal but it is also important to talk about other things that work and concentrate on getting the message out in as many different places as possible. That will give people the confidence to post here and allow the site to grow. It will make the site a worthwhile resource that many will wish to use rather than a site full of hate and arguing that has no real credibility .
There are a lot of bright and creative people on here and I'm glad I've had the chance to get to know several of you better in the short time that this has been running. There are several who have good ideas on how to make things better and how to stop abuses in the rooms and treatment centres. There are those on here with many years of sobriety who can inspire those that have problems and there are those who have helped family members and who do not have a problem themselves. There are many who are probably something like " work in progress" and I probably fall into that category . There are also a few with professional interests whom I'm sure would like to see some discussion about what works. We also have many who need some kind words and a bit of a chat when they are having a hard time and I particularly don't want them being scared off or being dragged into arguments. When you point the finger at someone you don't know in here you do not know what state they are in and so please think of that.
I do not wish to make light of the issues that some have faced on other " recovery" forums but I do not think the forum is the best place to have a go at the people on the Orange Papers forum as it changes the tone of the place here. I do not want undesirables coming across here to retaliate because it will be me that has to sort it all out, ban people and make the whole place less accessible which will impact on the majority of the users who are tired of arguing and bullshit. Feel free to discuss it in the chat and to ask for support in pm to those you trust, but I do not wish this place to be a place that people come to slag off the Orange Papers especially after I asked him to drop by. All you will do is put a split in the anti AA movement and that is not a great idea. I do not want this to be like AA where people can only talk about subjects in the AA way but I do feel that to continue to attack the Op forum in public could be a huge mistake in the future. I do not wish to have AA members going on some blog using quotes on here as ammunition which is a possibility. I have provided a chatroom where you can put the world to rights without it ending up in google etc. I also don't want the idiots that go on recovery sites like op to get the satisfaction of reading about themselves over here. By keeping them alive here in posts they do not even have to come over to start an argument- some will start it without them.
All are welcome here except those who come to disrupt and derail and I think with a bit of common sense the site can grow. If that does not happen it will have been a waste of time and a wasted opportunity that was dragged down by concentrating on people who are not here rather that concentrating on the issues that sites like ST and OP were set up in the first place to counter. - its your choice now!
http://recoveringfromrecovery.com

15
Addiction Treatment Philosophy / abstinance or moderation
« on: August 03, 2012, 11:08:05 PM »
They start out here with moderation then go into making full blown terroristic threats about haranguing AA meetings. Are you people sure AA has the problem?




abstinence or moderation
Post a reply
76 posts • Page 8 of 8 • 1 ... 45678
Re: abstinence or moderation

Postby smartypants » Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:37 pm
I'm loving this thread. I was sober for along time in A.A :oops: when I was self medicating it was every thing from alcohol crack cocaine to heroin. i have tried moderation and its an experiment for me. when i first started drinking again id have 2 glasses of wine every couple of nights and one night got bladders because i wanted to remember what it was like being drunk (it wasn't nice) soon realized this was to much alcohol. Now i have a shandy now and again. i realy drink but when i do i enjoy it ill have 3 or 4 glasses of rum and coke or wine when I'm at a party. yea thats a lot but i enjoy it. my life is good and manageable. how ever i could never touch drugs again. pot makes me think to much now. heroin i would be bang on it again and crack i wouldn't touch ever again(besides the fact i cant afford it anymore as I'm a law abiding citizen now....LOL. Its good to see how every one is completely different as apposed to A.A where one shoe fits all.

I also must mention that the first time i drank again two glasses of wine every two nights lasted for three months. then i got really drunk. i ran back to A.A because i was scared but something in me had changed. my logical thinking thought. OK, you tried drinking that way and it didn't work, SO DRINK LESS. so I left AA and I drink a lot less now.
Be happy for no reason, like a child. If you are happy for a reason, you're in trouble, because that reason can be taken from you.


Deepak Chopra

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Re: abstinence or moderation

Post by Kelly » Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:45 pm
Read this, and hell, yeah!
http://www.thecleanslate.org/can-an-add ... rate-user/

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Re: abstinence or moderation

Post by mfc66 » Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:28 pm
I had read those before and its good to see them again and have you posting here as well. I like the steven slate site well worth a look for those that don't know about him and massive has had him on her radio show which you can download as well. he makes a lot of sense and I'm sure he helps many people.
http://recoveringfromrecovery.com

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Re: abstinence or moderation

Post by BB Kate » Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:15 am
http://www.thecleanslate.org/can-an-add ... rate-user/

I really liked where it said this - it makes a lot of sense to me:

"It is precisely when people no longer view a substance induced high as their best available option for happiness that they will then find it effortless to use substances moderately (unless they hold on to an all-or-nothing powerlessness/loss of control belief). If you find you need to manage your substance usage, constantly telling yourself ‘no’, setting and being vigilant about sticking to arbitrary limits, and this all feels like a struggle – then this probably means you still think the high is the best thing going, which means you’ll gravitate towards doing it more and more."

"All you need to do is choose, but I guarantee that the successful lasting choice to change will be born of the belief that some other course of behavior will bring more happiness than the previous behavior. For some people, they may simply realize that even with no major life changes, they would get more happiness out of their life if they stopped using so many substances – and still, some other people may end up believing that some simple changes in the way they think about things may provide a better level of happiness."

"Each person has to forge their own path, but there is a simple principle of human behavior underlying it all: people move in the direction of what they believe will bring them the most happiness."

And it summarizes the 12-Step view quite well too.

The Pickle Theory
The way that addiction counselors often answer the question of whether it’s possible to become a moderate user after a period of “addiction” is by stating “a pickle can never go back to being a cucumber.”

If you believe the disease theory, this makes sense. In the disease theory, addiction is the result of permanent changes to the brain, and behavior is driven purely by chemical and physical processes of the brain. So in a sense, in this theory, the brain has been “pickled” as it were, and can never go back to a state where moderate use is possible.

The problem is, this disease theory has never been proven. Loss of control has never been proven. Powerlessness has never been proven. But on the flip side, experiments have shown that heavy drinkers, even when unknowingly slipped alcohol in a beverage designed to disguise and hide its flavor, do not drink “uncontrollably” (see Marlatt). Moreover, as I’ve stated already (and indeed, Ad Nauseum throughout this site), most “alcoholics” resume a pattern of moderate drinking at some point (see Dawson). And perhaps most damningly, the very studies which generated the now famous brain scans of “the addicted brain” done by NIDA director Nora Volkow show that after a period of abstinence, brain function moves back towards “normal.” **

"The brain of a user begins to look like the brain of a non-user when the user decides to stop using – imagine that! Sure, permanent brain damage is possible in the case of strokes and other injuries brought on by substance use, but in general, the neural correlates of addiction are simply following behavior and choice, and likewise follow new behavior and choice – the brain is not permanently “pickled”, rather it is plastic – looking more like a pickle when someone is actively choosing to use, and looking more like a cucumber when they choose to stop."

"In short, the evidence we have points to the conclusion that moderation is possible and indeed probable."

I find the section BOLDED, above, particularly pertinent. I have seen this with my friend (mentioned elsewhere) who regularly drinks Lemon, Lime and Bitters, not even knowing it is alcohol.

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Re: abstinence or moderation

Post by massive » Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:35 am
I think its a belief system and how we look at it. I am seeing by the blog's that many drink again moderately . especially those who stopped on their own will and accord very young like me and stopped for decades. But right now , this is just my theory...and as I read it looks like it's some people's who are ex steppers actual experience.

Imagine us all crashing a hipster AA meeting in West Hollywood and all of us dominating the shares with our truths as we share them here.

This is my dream. TO someday go with a group of us....at least 6-10 we all raise our hands, take cakes and dominate the shares with anti stepper talk.

It would be hilarious.

Thanks to each and everyone here who shared their truth and experience with me. Its also refreshing to just discuss this sanely.

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Re: abstinence or moderation

Post by Kelly » Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:30 pm
I am fine with crashing a meeting, and have considered it, but decided against it. ? Would I go into a church and proclaim the bible was written by men, that all land is Holy, or that God is not a man, that the virgin birth is fabricated, etc? Or would I simply choose to not go? Do I trust that the people who go to AA will find their own way, and some will eventually find their way out as I have done?

What I have done, is go to an AA meeting and say I don't need God for my recovery. I got some harsh looks. I have said I am not powerless. I was sharing my journey from the heart, exploring. But to just go in and tell them they are just plain wrong, I don't think that would be useful or respectful. Or do you disagree?

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