Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: none-ya on June 13, 2010, 12:23:43 AM
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I remember the seed as hot and dirty
I remember being hungry all the time
I remember being denied bathroom privileges
I remember those hard assed chairs for 12 hours a day
I remember doing the hokey pokey while people across the street laughed and yelled things
I remember big black Arthur, standing up a 10 year old, yelling "youze a fuckhead"
I remember the "open" meetings
I remember the moral inventories (I never did one from the time I came home)
I remember my friends calling me a narc (yeah right)
I remember the door goons
I remember the bathroom monitors (shit or piss?)
I remember telling myself that I would get away from there as soon as I could
and anyone who's even been 1 meeting would know
WHY DO WE SING FUCKING JINGLE BELLS???!!!
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We sang it under duress, as an act of conformity, part of a ritual
reasons were stated, but the real reason was simply to get a aroup of people to simultaneously engage in a mindless activity on command
it was a component of conditioning
We now have free will
we sing or not of our own volition
I cannot imagine why you would sing it at all, given the experience you have documented here
you surely have your reasons, while I could speculate, I do not understand them
I choose not to sing jingle bells at all;
In addition to all of the baggage, the mention of snow rubs the whole heat vs humidity arguement in my face, perhaps it is time to look into a summer place in Canada
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Johnny G wrote
We sang it under duress, as an act of conformity, part of a ritual
reasons were stated, but the real reason was simply to get a aroup of people to simultaneously engage in a mindless activity on command
it was a component of conditioning
First you said you knew nothing about jingle bells. Now it only "under duress"?
Johnny g wrote
I spent my time in the truckers shed, or fixing stuff around the building, at barkers house, fixing cars, his boat etc.
Didn't spend a whole lot of time in the group after year 1. was never thought of or referred to as staff;
They left you alone a Barkers house? Fixing his car. And you never cut his brake lines? Please tell me you at least shit on his toothbrush. How much duress were you under to be Barkers houseboy?
Johnny G wrote
Lived in a house with 10 people, like I said, cheap!
Fairly institutional, with no newcomers, things were pretty open, got pretty good at chess, had a decent job, constant sense that it could all go away at any moment;
It really sounds liked it there. Again where's the duress?
Johnny G wrote
At the outset I thought that the folks doing my intake had it together more than I did and they had 5 years in so I decided I could go that long.
So you had admiration for those criminals from day 1?
BTW - you seem pretty high strung for such a laid back avatar,
And your answers have all the substance of yours
These are words only seedling woud know and nobody does?
Antigen or Stack, please help this guy out.
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back to the top you go
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You spent a few months inconvienienced and you know everything there was/is to know about it?
Then you don't need me to tell you anything
Jr. Staff on bathroom duty?
In the context of seed of 1978, that didn't happen - we didn't even have bathroom monitors;
Didn't have "door goons" either, most were kids
very different world
However, I recognize that things were quite different in the early 1970s, and were certainly different when I left than when I came in
It is my understanding that it was very different in 1990
Don't put me into the context of tropical park, st pete, or the blimp hangar - I wasn't there
I was in cleveland in 1978, and left from Sr. 84 in '83 - the seed was on hold, just muddling thru government funds gone, trying to compete with mel sembler for the private market.
We were on 10 - 6 (5 days after 79 or 80)
small group - tiny (dozen or so) during the week
yes charlotte, we sang jingle bells
That is the seed I remember
Lots of people told of the "old days"
10 to 10
hundreds of people
a front row several rows deep
Never experienced that
We didn't even have open meetings after my first year or so;
It was metamorphosing into a cult;
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Yeah right. Barker must have been a real nice guy by then.
A kinder gentler seed. No wonder you stayed 5 years by choice.
Sounds like you had nowhere to go.
Lucky bastard.
And by the way, the jingle bells thing came from Barker himself.
He let you watch his house, but never shared that with you?
Your story dosen't jive.
Are there any other ex seed kids out there?
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Because every day that you're "straight," it's like Christmas (http://http://pbre.info/carolineadean/Christmas%20on%20VOODOOLPPTP%20%28Voodoolptp%29/Bing%20Crosby%20-%20Jingle%20Bells.mp3)? :seg:
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Finaly, it took someone from another program (I think) to get it.
At the end of every meeting, every night, the rap leader would put forth the question
Why do we sing jingle bells? And the place would go crazy with people snapping their fingers, jumping out of their seats,
and begging to yell the following,
"CAUSE EVERY DAY WE'RE STRAIGHT, IT'S LIKE CHRISTMAS!!!
i still hate christmas. And even now when I hear that song during the hollidays, I still want to puke.
May Art barker die in a pile of his own shit. (or somebody elses)
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"CAUSE EVERY DAY WE'RE STRAIGHT, IT'S LIKE CHRISTMAS!!!
I'm happy you feel that way
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Dear Barkers houseboy
You're an idiot! Or maybe you suffer from aspergers in wich case sarcasm is meaningless to you.
None of your answers about the seed really jived. I've talked to people from Cleveland and south Fl. (not that different at all).
So I asked you that question over and over again because it's somthing any newcomer could answer. Yet you couldn't!
Even Ursus knew, and I don't believe he was ever at the seed. But after 5 years you had no idea what I was talking about?
Sarcasm aside,
I HATE CHRISTMAS,
I HATE JINGLES BELLS
I HATE THE SEED , AND ALL OF THOSE WHO DEFEND IT!
Tell me. Do you still do you moral inventories? Or have you not heard of them either?
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You are certainly entitled to sing jingle bells as often as you like, and do all the moral inventories you want;
you can live in whatever reality you choose
I don't believe you talked to anyone from Cleveland - and definitely not anyone who was there when Cleveland closed and moved to SR-84 (1978);
I, on the other hand, have talked to people who were at tropical park, St. pete, Blimp hangar, Andrews Ave (they were there when I was there - 5 years wasn't unusual - several were around for 10+ when I left) and from those conversations it is evident that, Yes, the program did change over time, but -as you have stated- you weren't there very long so you wouldn't have experienced that.
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Johnny G wroteReport this postReply with quoteCleveland Seed Revisited
by Johnny G ยป 25 Jan 2006, 22:52
I have real vague memories of the Cleveland Seed, guess I was still trying to figure the whole thing out when we up and left for SR84.
THe strongest memories I have are the people there (I have some faces and names, only a few that match up).
I had voluntarily put myself in, I had some legal trouble so it was there or a mental hospital lest I go to prison (I told myself this before I heard of the Seed, so when it was put out there as an option, I took it - obviously I didn't need to be sold on the deadorinjail line)
I wonder what happend to the guys left behind (I was told not to talk to them after we moved). The guys who I thought could get me on the right track Paul T (and his sister Jackie...) john G (from Canada), Bobby B, Jeff P, Phil and Scott P.
o kids that were in the
I really feel bad for Eric (the boxer) and his whole family - they bought into it enough to move to Ft. Lauderdale, take home newcomers, and then get abandoned - thrown out - one day. I know it happened, but never knew anything about why.
I guess the lucky ones were the underage kids who were summarily graduated just because the program was splitting town, they didn't get sucked in the way many of us 80's folks did.
enough rambling for now - let's get together for your beverage of choice and talk all night - then I will get a lot of this stuff talked out.
Told my mom that I had found this forum, she said she doesn't hate Art any more. [/quote
No kids that were in the seed at all were "lucky"
Remember,your memories are still vague.
You shouldh've listened to your mom.
Sounds like she had some sense.
Too bad it didn't rub off.
You know it's still not too late for you.
There is always the church of scientology.
I hear they're always in need of mindless drones.
Your resume' looks promising
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it's cool that you can use the search function!
so you didn't need ursus to tell you about jingle bells -
I was in cleveland for a month or so before it closed, so yes, pretty vague
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But I wanted to hear it from you. Ursus never claimed to be from the seed.But he seems to know more about it than you . Barker's houseboy huh? How many people did you have to rat out to get that gig?
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I am not into call and response, automatically parroting back the right answer to retorical questions ("why do we sing jingle bells?")
Lack of appropriate enthusiasim might impact ones progress thru the program;
You are right, everyone who has been there knows it;
WHy don't you sing a few bars of the seed song (to the tune of greenslleeves) for us? - use the search function, it is out there somewhere buried under all of the crap posted over the last year or so;
You could tell us "the rules" or the "7 steps" - any Jr. Staff member ought to know that (how many people did you rat out to get that?)
I'll bet there are dozens of silly ass challenges one could lay down as a shibboleth
Sort of ridiculous given the current context
I ratted out no-one
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:tup:
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What gives with you? At first you had no idea what I was talking about.Now you sound like you you answered it for me. You didn't. You got the answer from Ursus. But you know what else we've never heard out of you?
THE SEED WAS A REALLY BAD PLACE. RUN BY REALLY BAD PEOPLE
I can tell you don't believe that.
This is for you,
Zip-a-dee-doo-dah zip-a-dee-ay
My oh my what a wonderful day
Plenty of sunshine heading my way
Zip-a-dee-doo-dah zip-a-dee-ay
Mr bluebirds on my shoulder
It's the truth its actual
And everything is satisfactual
Zip-a-dee-doo-dah zip-a-dee-ay
Wonderful feeling
Wonderful day
Kinda' takes you back don't it?
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I'll stay in the present, thanks
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I'll stay in the present, thanks
Me too. Who would want to revisit those horrible days!
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If you don't want to talk about the seed, why are you even here?
And to ms. Anne, were you a seedling? There aren't very many of us left here on fornits.
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If you don't want to talk about the seed, why are you even here?
And to ms. Anne, were you a seedling? There aren't very many of us left here on fornits.
Nah....it's descendant, Straight.
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I'll stay in the present, thanks
Me too. Who would want to revisit those horrible days!
Sometimes it's helpful to understand the past (or at least know enough), so that it doesn't become the future.
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Nun-ya, I sort of was a Seedling. My 3 older brothers and one sister were in Ft. Laud all through the `70's. Both the Andrews Ave building and SR84. I landed up in Straight from `80 to late `82.
You're right. Not many Seedlings post here anymore. I think that's mostly because the cult drew back to very small numbers in the late seventies. Seems as though latter day Seedlings tended to hang around for years with very rarely an intake, so there just aren't that many people to begin with. Those with an interest have said almost all they have to say and don't check back all that often if at all. If you're looking to find people you knew or background info on times and locations you didn't live through try looking back over older posts. Some of those registered usernames probably still have valid email addresses so you can try and contact anybody you might wish to talk to.
Anyway, welcome.
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It is kind of a closed society when the only acceptable discourse concerns rehashing various platitudes (the seed sucks, barker sucks. etc.) and idle threats;
I attempted to discuss the latter day phenomena of people hanging out for several years, having done it myself, but was apparently not sufficiently combative.
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Johnny G wrote
It is kind of a closed society when the only acceptable discourse concerns rehashing various platitudes (the seed sucks, barker sucks. etc.) and idle threats;
So let me get this straight. You've come to praise Barker, not to bury him? That's really kinda' sad. 'Cause that old bastard never gave a shit about you or anybody else in his cult. Only the bottom line $$$.
By the way,how many of those peanut butter and jelly sandwiches do you recon you ate in 5 years?
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Johnny G wrote
It is kind of a closed society when the only acceptable discourse concerns rehashing various platitudes (the seed sucks, barker sucks. etc.) and idle threats;
So let me get this straight. You've come to praise Barker,
I don't see how this gets misconstrued as praise , as I said - it must not be combative enough.
If all I wanted to do was lob insults or idle threats then I would have gotten that out of my system a long ago;
This has all been repeated ad infinitum over the life of this forum, so it no longer has any impact.
BTW: As I said, I didn't spend a lot of time in the group after year one, so not many PBJs .
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I just want to know , how is it that you don't hate those people. I guess I'll never understand why anyone who could simply walk away from thier captor, oppressor, jailer, kidnapper, cult leader,ect... at will. Why would they stay? Sounds like Stockholm syndrome.
http://sniggle.net/stock.php (http://sniggle.net/stock.php)
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It has a lot to do with the context
Unlike many (maybe everyone) on this forum, I had already convinced myself that I was screwed up, so I didn't go in kicking and screaming about how I wasn't that bad - pretty much everyone looked like they had it more together.
Unlike most on the forum, I was not brought in under duress - it seemed like a good option - I came up with the "deadorinjail" line long before I showed up at the seed.
I was not a happy go lucky kid, life sucked big time;
I was the perfect candidate for cult membership.
I wasn't court ordered, My attorney recommended I go somewhere to get out of circulation for a while;
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Ya know, nun-ya, I don't really hate these people either. I hate what the whole thing did to my family and my mind personally. And I think it's sad as hell that people like Art and Libbi and the rest of the cadre have spent their lives wrapped up in an insular little cult. I once got a call from Libbi's sister in law asking for help in getting a message through to her brother. They evidently hadn't spoken in years and she couldn't be sure if whoever was answering the phone at the Seed was passing on the message that the family had been trying to contact him. Probably not. They probably thought they were protecting him by saving him the temptation to talk to splits, pulls and fuck-ups.
Very sad. And my family is the same way to a lessor degree. I'm an apostate to the Seedling/Drug war religion and therefore pretty much cast out of my family.
But I probably wouldn't go to the trouble of publishing and muck raking on the topic just for that. I think people who run these kinds of organizations are dangerous to the public and to future generations. Even though the telling of this story is painful and embarrassing to the people involved, that really is not my object in telling it. My only object is to encourage debate and understanding of the phenomena so that, hopefully, they will lose the power to abuse future generations.
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Until last night, like some sort of epiphany, I realized that that part of my life could explain for a lot of the things I feel now. I felt betrayed by my parents for putting me there, although I've always professed to love them very much. I remember not being able to tell them what really went on in there for fear they would raise Hell, and I, in turn, would wind back up on the "front row." Remember the "front row?" It's your worst nightmare; means you had to start ALL over again from the beginning. Like a jailed inmate counting down his/her days to freedom all goes away in the blink of an eye because of some perceived wrong by "them". Suzy Barker, Art's niece, Libby McDonald, just plain bitch are some of the few I remember. I remember having to clap, smile and sing some special song whenever Art graced us with his presence. We were told, but I never saw, the famous "Jackie Gleason Limo" he would pull up in; presumably given to Art by Jackie because they were such good friends. I remember falling to the ground from heat exhaustion outside performing forced exercises (no A/C indoors, remember), and the famous peanut butter and jelly sandwiches made in the early a.m. but not served to us for hours later, while the jelly would roll down my wrists. Couldn't go the the bathroom though to wash up...constantly accused of lying about needing to use the bathroom. Accused of wanting to get out of the current "rap session" bc it must be hitting too close to home for me. I remember making stuff up to stand up and speak just so I wouldn't be the one they "hit" on that day. "Standing you up", I think they called it. I remember spending the night in stranger's homes dying to ask them for some food to eat, but feeling rude for thinking it instead. In retrospect, Art had no overhead. The staff were "volunteers", PBJ's were the standard food, the strangers fed you in the morning and at night if you were lucky; there was no A/C costs, the chairs you could pick up at any garage sale, and so my parent's hard earned money went straight into the bastard's pockets. I think it's only fair that he participate in funding my therapy today. I have so much more to say, but I need to know if anyone is really listening to this. I've needed to say this for over 36 years now. Thanks.
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Would anyone who went to The Seed be willing to talk to me? I was stuck in there for a year from the time I was 15 in 1975, Ft. Lauderdale.
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Hello
St. Pete '73
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I'm sorry I resonded to your 2nd post having not read your 1st one.
So again Hello. It sounds just like St. Pete. The heat, nothing to drink (1 cup of water after calisthenics)
Did they make you do the hokey - pokey? And yes I remember being hungry all the time. My oldcommers parents Would give us a couple of hot dogs. 1 oldtimer and 1 oldcomer (brothers), and 3 newcomers. 4 of us in 1 room with the door lock turned anound backwards and the windows screwed shut from the outside. Thank god there was never a fire.
Welcome again and read the past posts in this forum, to get a feel for who's who.
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Omg...thanks nun-ya. Yes, the hokey pokey was a big one. So was that song I can't stand to hear now, something about "kittens and mittens" and "these are few of my favorite things." All these joyous (yeah right) songs. It feels so good to get this out after all this time. I don't know why now all of the sudden, but I'm just glad I found this forum. I didn't have a menstrual period for the entire time I was there, and I wasn't allowed to see a Dr. (or dentist) for the duration. Yes, and the one dixie cup of water...
Why hasn't Art been prosecuted?
After a year, I stood up for myself after asking to be "graduated" (which we all know means, Let me the Hell outta here) and being denied, I finally told them I would tell my parents everything, and lo and behold, I "grad-u-"f-ing"-ated" the next week. There were no lock downs in Ft. Lauderdale; you were at the mercy of your peers local families. I had to come over from Ft. Myers, so those of us not fortunate enough to live at or go home, had it to really suck it up.
Fortunately, today, I no longer have to ask to use the bathroom, or tell an intimidating male or female if I have to go #1 or #2. But the memories, while somewhat repressed, still haunt me today.
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Sorry but I had to do this;
Raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens
Bright copper kettles and warm woolen mittens
Brown paper packages tied up with strings
These are a few of my favorite things
Cream colored ponies and crisp apple streudels
Doorbells and sleigh bells and schnitzel with noodles
Wild geese that fly with the moon on their wings
These are a few of my favorite things
Girls in white dresses with blue satin sashes
Snowflakes that stay on my nose and eyelashes
Silver white winters that melt into springs
These are a few of my favorite things
When the dog bites
When the bee stings
When I'm feeling sad
I simply remember my favorite things
And then I don't feel so bad
I would fantasize about the crisp apple streudels and the schnitzel with noodles.
And my guess is that Art too many "low friends in high places". He made a lot of money and I'm sure he greased all the right plams. So you never got to be a newcomer living at home? Too bad,that was the easiest way to split, (worked for me).
By the way, there are older posts in the seed forum with all the seed songs.
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It is kind of a closed society when the only acceptable discourse concerns rehashing various platitudes (the seed sucks, barker sucks. etc.) and idle threats;
I attempted to discuss the latter day phenomena of people hanging out for several years, having done it myself, but was apparently not sufficiently combative.
Welcome to fornits.
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Hi None-Ya, and thanks for answering. No, I never got to go home. The closest I came was to fantasize about being on any jetliner flying overhead. I would say, "I wanna be on that plane going anywhere; any place but HERE.", But then I'd turn around and tell someone I loved them. Just to play the game...the Winner of the game, by the way, was the one who got to go home. The CHAMPION of the game is the one who got realeased from the program entirely.
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Would anyone who went to The Seed be willing to talk to me? I was stuck in there for a year from the time I was 15 in 1975, Ft. Lauderdale.
Hey Karen. Remember any McNultys?
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karenshoe1 wrote
the Winner of the game, by the way, was the one who got to go home. The CHAMPION of the game is the one who got realeased from the program entirely.
Best case scenario, the seed was a tremendous waste of time.
Worst case scenario, the seed ripped familys apart, caused permanent psycological damage, And is even responsable for a few suicides. I don't believe there were any winners at all. Some people just lost less than others. (execpt for Johnny G, who got to stay where he wanted to be for 5 years) I wonder when he left did they look at each other and say " damn I thought we would never get rid of him".