Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Anonymous on October 16, 2005, 04:47:00 PM
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I found several references to people in the program being virgins odd considering we were all one step from hell when we entered. Any takers? Who was a virgin when they went in. I'll go first--yes I was.
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No I was not
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Not me!
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I had had sex but didn't reach spiritual puberty unil 22.
I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.
-- Hunter S. Thompson
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yes, but I would never admit it to anyone.
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No I was not.
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I STILL AM. (WHAT YOU THINK THATS FUNNY?)
CLASS OF 74
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I?ve given up on getting my old name to work and signed on with a new one. I am now NOT12NOW.
Ok, so it looks like there weren?t as many virgins as I thought.
As I said on my first post, I was a virgin but I know my parents believed I had had intercourse. There were three other girls in the program with me that I remember were also virgins.
So now I have another theory. Once I was back at home, I clearly remember deciding it would be best if I were no longer a virgin and secretly taking care of it myself one night. It wasn?t a masturbatory thing; it was a task I felt I needed to do. I think now that I deflowered myself, during the program, because the seed cemented my belief that sex was painful. I needed to know I could handle the pain of penetration alone before it happened in the future with a partner (Wow, the seed was really making me feel hopeful about my future.) I did this even though it meant concealing, what seemed at the time to be the most depraved secret from the all-knowing staff.
Yes, my pre-seed sexual partners were vulturous and if something hadn?t changed I have no doubt one of them would eventually have raped me but I?d also experienced some arousal and a personal drive to experiment. I was just becoming a sexual being but I had not yet felt the pull to have intercourse. Unfortunately Chick raps convinced me there was NO pleasure in it. All the Chick raps gravitated around one idea. We played games with guys and got what we deserved. There was no distinction made between consensual sex and rape and no sympathy for anyone?cause, after all, we asked for it. No one was even very explicit, at a certain point in every story a curtain would drop. What they deserved was behind it. I was young; I couldn?t imagine that was behind that curtain. All I understood for sure was that it hurt.
I?ve always said, ?Well if nothing else, going to the seed kept me from getting rapped.? But truth is in terms of my psyche the damage was the same. If I had been physically raped I might have sought help and maybe some kind counselor, doctor, grown-up would at least have told me it wasn?t my fault and that sex isn?t supposed to hurt.
.Then, after all that horror, we would end the raps by talking about how a relationship in our futures would be ?icing on the cake? cause we were so happy we didn?t need one. I secretly wondered (in the vaguest way of course) why anyone would want a relationship. After all, even a really healthy one ?like Art and Shelly?s? involved sex, which sounded about as pleasurable as getting stabbed.
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If you said you were a virgin then the assumption was you were lying. I mean, how could you prove your virginity short of a physical exam? My word against theirs.
But, if you lied and said you weren't, well then, in your heart you would know that you were a liar. But somehow, being a liar at heart was better than being being confronted and forced to defend the awful truth: that you WERE a virgin, but because you were in the seed you were a druggie and therefore you must be a liar.
Picture this....I can still recall old Suzi (Not Barker), standing there on the hot pavement off to the side of the loading dock back behind the SR84 building, rythmically and repeatedly, ever so slightly bending and straighten the same leg as she rocked on the crotch of her britches saying to one sweaty little girl who was responding to a confrontation about her sexual history and tearfully pleading her virginity, "Sit down...you're lying."
How the fuck did Suzi (Not - Barker) know anything about the sexual history of this girl? And what was up with that crotch rockin' anyway?
And Suzi, if you are reading this, I will swear on a stack of anything you want to stack - you did this to that girl.
So, what's a girl to do? It's so freaking obvious....lie. What a piece of shit I am for lying. Oh yeah, I was a virgin. But then, I also lied. [ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-10-18 11:43 ][ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-10-18 14:33 ]
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On 2005-10-18 09:04:00, NOT12NOW wrote:
"I?ve given up on getting my old name to work and signed on with a new one. I am now NOT12NOW.
Oh, sorry, I wish I'd caught this earlier. I could have just updated the password. If you like, I can do that and reassign your new posts to the old name or the other way around.I think that all right-thinking people in this country are sick and tired of being told that ordinary, decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I'm certainly not! But I'm sick and tired of being told that I am!
-- Monty Python
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Sorry, Suzy died of cancer about 10 years ago and left behind 2 & 3 yr old daughters.
I remember Suzi fondly. Stripe do you remember anyone with fondness. I mean ever?
You sound very bitter & I don't think it all has to do with just the seed
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Good riddance ! ::drummer::
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On 2005-10-18 12:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Sorry, Suzy died of cancer about 10 years ago and left behind 2 & 3 yr old daughters.
I remember Suzi fondly. Stripe do you remember anyone with fondness. I mean ever?
You sound very bitter & I don't think it all has to do with just the seed"
The name was Suzi something - not Suzi Barker, I Suzi someone else. I was mistaken.
Say, by the way Anon, why in the world would I remember an event as nasty and and visually traumatizing as that with fondness or kindness?
I don't belive I'm obligated to remember any thing about my experience there with kindness, or fondness. The whole point of my "RELATING" that story was to show how kids were treated and how totally fucked up it was.
Who I am now and whether or not I am kind - you know nothing more of me that I put out there for you to know. Do you really mean to judge me by your limited scope of knowledge?
And as for Suzi, it is sad that she died of such a dreadful illness. We all die though, some just sooner or some later than others. But the mere fact that she had cancer in NO way minimizes what she did to that child and shame on you for trying to absolve her.
And FYI, though I've never personally been ill with that disease, I have had family members and very dear friends over the years who have. I know first hand how difficult it can be to live with and and lose to the disease.
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That's me. I forgot to log in.
And tell me anon, based on your vast knowledge of me, where does this perceived bitterness come from? [ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-10-18 14:29 ]
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On 2005-10-18 12:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
Stripe do you remember anyone with fondness. I mean ever?
My guess? Probably so. Just not you and your bestest buddies. Why? Cause you're all a bunch of unrepentant control freaks. It was never some imaginary druggie disease that made people throw bottles and shout rude things at the building, constantly try to run away and such. It was you, anon; your behavior. You earned it and you still seem to be proud of it. Deflection will get you nowhere.
The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind.
--Marquis de Sade, French libertine
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On the other side of the coin imagine how someone must feel when all that they based their life on violently is torn apart. I can imagine the loneliness and anger.
Not to belittle your experience of hurt and pain in any which way or will I dismiss your anger as just some misguided incorrect response but I will say this about Ft Lauderdale. For all the years that I have known him his heart has been true and he has done nothing but to be kind and generous and above all open minded.Weather you agree with him or not, he has stayed true to what he believes in (at a great personal cost).
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On 2005-10-18 15:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
On the other side of the coin imagine how someone must feel when all that they based their life on violently is torn apart. I can imagine the loneliness and anger.
Yeah, I get that. I honestly do. However, the cost of sparing their feelings comes down to pretending it was all goodness and light; hiding the awful truth from people who are in danger of getting taken in by the same scam. Sorry, not worth it.
Hey, if I can take it so can he who's name must never be mentioned. (what's with that, anyway??)If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race?
--Frederic Bastiat -- 1801-1850
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I was here reading some posts and was thinking how strange sexuality was dealt with at the Seed.
I remember the guy?s raps and how some guys talked about how many times they had different women and it would always go back to being a fucked up relationship. I always thought that a lot of the guys were talking out of their ass.
I had over the years gotten close and developed some close friendships with some of the girls but I always felt that there was a line you could not cross. I will even say that I had a crush over time on a couple of the girls. What a source of frustration this turned out to be being in my twenties and not being able to pursue a girlfriend. Throwing me deeper into my insecurities related to my own sexuality.
This was one of the key reasons why I decide to leave. In the end I just wanted a shot at a normal life.
:wave:
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I never saw the Seed as a scam I believed in what they taught. That it was flawed I'll give you that but not a scam.
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On the down side, life can be hard, painful, difficult and trying for every single living person - not just seedlings. IT can also be a most beautiful and prescious experience. Seedlings never had a lock on that.
But guess what, staying true to any thing will cost you. Some prices I don't mind paying at all. Tell me anon, do you regret the price(s) you have paid for holding fast to your beliefs?
You guys who stayed and would go back in a heartbeat if it existed can keep your kind memories but you get no brownie points for that. Geeze-louise, I should feel sorry for people whose lives are hard because they have kept their head in the sand?
In turn, people who have rejected and recall the place with no fondness at all and have been blessed with a cynical outlook about these kinds of places (like me) don't get any brownie points either.
Sorry pal, but that's life. No one said it would be easy.
[ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-10-18 16:07 ]
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On 2005-10-18 16:05:00, jgar wrote:
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I never saw the Seed as a scam I believed in what they taught. That it was flawed I'll give you that but not a scam. "
Just because you believed it didn't make it true. Lots of people believe in their scams. That's how it works. The fact remains that the Seed sold itself as a drug rehab while recruiting clients who were not drug addicted. Good thing, too, cause they really didn't have a lot of help for that particular problem. Art and his little gang cried poor mouth, soliciting donations and public funding from anyone gullible enough to believe it was all going to help those poor (imaginary) drug addicted kids. In reality, the core players came out of it extremely wealthy while us alleged beneficieries came out of it less our college funds, inheritances and, in many cases, w/ irreparable damage to our families. Oh yeah, that was the other selling point; "We put families back together!" Yeah, right?
How, exactly, is that not a scam?
"Now, I'm a walking dead man," ... "And what bothers me is that I'm dead because I tried to help the kids. And it's all the fault of all those people over there at the DEA." [Dead Man Talking]
--Ben Guillory
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Gese Louise Stripe , you sound like one yough bitch.
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On 2005-10-18 16:05:00, Stripe wrote:
"On the down side, life can be hard, painful, difficult and trying for every single living person - not just seedlings. IT can also be a most beautiful and prescious experience. Seedlings never had a lock on that.
But guess what, staying true to any thing will cost you. Some prices I don't mind paying at all. Tell me anon, do you regret the price(s) you have paid for holding fast to your beliefs?
You guys who stayed and would go back in a heartbeat if it existed can keep your kind memories but you get no brownie points for that. Geeze-louise, I should feel sorry for people whose lives are hard because they have kept their head in the sand?
In turn, people who have rejected and recall the place with no fondness at all and have been blessed with a cynical outlook about these kinds of places (like me) don't get any brownie points either.
Sorry pal, but that's life. No one said it would be easy.
[ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-10-18 16:07 ]"
Hum this atitude is familar wonder where i've exprienced it before?
Cold,unbending toward other perceptions. i guess in this world two wrongs do make a right.
i guess you did pick a few traits up after all and here you thought all that time was wasted
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No one had to trick or drag me into the seed because Suzy and Scott did my intake
God she was cute, square face, bright. She was the first woman told about things. What I was doing with boys. How I ended up running away. She was the first adult to greet me with out distance. She seemed to understand what I was going through. She was someone I wanted to emulate. She gave me a cigarette.
Later she yelled at me that I was ?so full of shit,? she couldn?t believe they were trying to help me. I think she was also the one who pointed out during my ?come down,? that I didn?t even inhale my cigarettes (You?d think, maybe, if I didn?t inhale tobacco I didn?t have a drug problem?)
The things I remember fondly about all staff will always be coupled with the pain they caused me. I don?t know if she was getting off on the chair and the girl. I remember her shaking her leg a lot but wasn?t I clued in to what was ?sexual? yet. Maybe she just developed a tick, after all she did go through the seed too, she could always have been started over right? I developed a habit of rubbing the tops of my thighs really fast in-group. Maybe it was an anxiety-fueled tick, or maybe it was to stay alert. Also remember doing weird things with my spine to amuse myself during raps and there was the lip smackers phase for a while. Chicks were passing requests to borrow each other?s tubes--It came in different flavors. The staff stepped in and snipped those exchanges from the aisle.
God those raps were dull.
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On 2005-10-18 11:42:00, Stripe wrote:
"If you said you were a virgin then the assumption was you were lying. I mean, how could you prove your virginity short of a physical exam? My word against theirs.
But, if you lied and said you weren't, well then, in your heart you would know that you were a liar. But somehow, being a liar at heart was better than being being confronted and forced to defend the awful truth: that you WERE a virgin, but because you were in the seed you were a druggie and therefore you must be a liar.
Picture this....I can still recall old Suzi (Not Barker), standing there on the hot pavement off to the side of the loading dock back behind the SR84 building, rythmically and repeatedly, ever so slightly bending and straighten the same leg as she rocked on the crotch of her britches saying to one sweaty little girl who was responding to a confrontation about her sexual history and tearfully pleading her virginity, "Sit down...you're lying."
How the fuck did Suzi (Not - Barker) know anything about the sexual history of this girl? And what was up with that crotch rockin' anyway?
And Suzi, if you are reading this, I will swear on a stack of anything you want to stack - you did this to that girl.
So, what's a girl to do? It's so freaking obvious....lie. What a piece of shit I am for lying.
Oh yeah, I was a virgin. But then, I also lied.
Stripe, you captured the whole thing in a nutshell, especially the part about honesty. Honesty was the first and most important rule, right? However, if you were honest, you would get Confronted and screamed at, so you were forced to violate the rule in order to survive and "progress" and earn the right to be treated like a human being.
Fondness? Ft Lauderdale, sometimes my friend you just don't get it. You aren't necessarily bitter because you don't recall past experiences in a good light.
Should for example, victims of extreme violence be expected to recall their attackers' sense of humor or be labelled as bitter?
Com'n dude, try to understand how a 12 or 13 year old boy or girl would feel during these "raps" about sexuality and upon witnessing others getting torn to shreds over sexual "lies" and so forth. Think about how fragile a child's mind is about sex and their physical maturity and how someone would feel discussing these things in a venue where they would and could be screamed at and bellittled in front of hundreds of older kids and even family members and friends from outside the seed. Imagine how these children would lie in order to protect themselves from these encounters, and then imagine how scared they would be that their "lie" would be exposed or that their "mind would be read" by the adult staff.
Kindness? These sexual boys and girls raps were nothing short of humiliating, degrading and dangerous to the mental health of the children forced to attend them.
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BTW, I believe Stripe is talking about Suzi Conners.
Please clear up who it was that died, ie: which Suzi.
Could you please post this in the my friend is dead thread. Thank you in advance.
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Suzi C. last time I saw her 15 years ago was alive and well Suzi B. died about 10 or more years ago of cancer.
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Didn't know there were too. I memories were of Suzy C.
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Not12now, what was your prior forum name?
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pigeon
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On 2005-10-21 06:39:00, GregFL wrote:
"BTW, I believe Stripe is talking about Suzi Conners.
Please clear up who it was that died, ie: which Suzi.
Could you please post this in the my friend is dead thread. Thank you in advance.
"
The person I referred to was Suzi Connors.
Stripe