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Messages - Oz girl

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31
The Troubled Teen Industry / Re: Magnolia Christian Center... OWNED..
« on: July 27, 2010, 05:40:39 AM »
Quote from: "jayson"
I attended a school where use of a paddle was a regular event. Most boys got paddled at some point in Jr. High and again at some point in High School... not all, but most. Actually, I can't imagine anyone made it though two years of PE without getting paddled. (The Coaches paddled more than any one else and they usually did it publicly, which even at the time we knew was a violation of the letter of the rules -- but everyone knew it happened and no one objected.)

"Licks" as we called them usually consisted of 3 swats. Sometimes you'd get just one. Really get in trouble and you could, in theory, I think, get as many as 10. I never heard, however, of anyone getting 10... or at least not that I believed.

I remember getting 3 licks on at least a couple of occasions. I was far from a "bad" kid, but I also got bored easily and it got me into trouble. It hurt like hell and left light bruises on my butt that lasted two to three days. When I got five licks once (for "fighting" -- which consisted of me getting punched in the gut by another guy who was angry at me for some reason I now can't remember), my butt had a dark black bruise right across the sit spot that took almost a week to fade. When I sat down for the next day or so, it was painful. Which, actually, I remember the Vice Principal promising me. I quote: "I intend to make sure you remember not to fight in my school every time you sit down for the rest of the week." Promise made. Promise kept -- more or less.

I also witnessed guys getting paddled in gym. Most guys would have eyes filled with tears after being paddled. Sometimes, they would yell out loud. Most tried to tough it out. Occasionally, someone would stand up  and grab his butt or run away from the paddle and the Coach would have some of the bigger, more athletic kids drag the kid back for the rest of his punishment plus one or two for running.

I know girls sometimes got paddled... but not nearly as much as boys. And the public paddling was in gym, which was gender-segregated. (Which was, evidently, a somewhat  old fashioned custom my school kept after others gave it up.)

Now, having said all that... and acknowledging that hitting kids as a way of teaching them something is, in my opinion, ineffective at best and abusive at worst....

My school was a high performing public high school. My Middle School (or Jr. High, whatever) was somewhat less high performing, but still catered primarily to a middle-class, regular student body. This was not a "program" school. And, yes, this still goes on, to a greater or lesser degree, in many public schools in this country.

I'm not in any way trying to say that what is happening is okay. I'm just trying to point out that this practice is far more widespread than you seem to think. 22 states still permit corporal punishment in schools.

I guess I'm just saying that you can't expect everyone to be on the same page as you with regard to corporal punishment (ie. hitting kids). Which is shame, but is the real context in which you are trying to persuade others as to the abusive nature of these schools.

I hope this post is taken in the spirit in which it is offered. I've seen what you all can do when you don't like a post. ;)

 :beat:

That sounds pretty horrible. The reason why "program" schools that paddle concern me is that in many cases, particularly this one, so many other practices are questionable at best that adding corporal punishment to the mix and being open about makes me question what else the boys may be subjected to. There is a guy called Jordan Ryak who opposes corporal punishment as well as this industry. You might be interested in his sight. He acknowledges that corporal punishment is still an issue in many American public schools. He also taught in australia in the late 70s when some schools still used the "cane" (we never had paddles) and was pretty instrumental in the move to outlaw it. This was in the day when a smack across the hand or knuckles for misbehavior was considered a normal part of school life. As far as i know it was considered a bit pervy for teachers to smack kids asses, though im sure a belting across the hands with a cane was hardly a day at the beach either.
http://www.nospank.net/

32
The Troubled Teen Industry / Re: No help for suicidal teen
« on: July 22, 2010, 03:57:16 AM »
I assumev by european you mean any country that is not america! There is no uniform "european" view as every different country in europe has a different culture, political structure and language. In the case of Oz and NZ they are actually culturally closer to the US than most european countries.
 But all you have shown is that is countries liberal on prohibition people choose to exercise those rights and take drugs. In the US and australia people take drugs anyway and dodge the authorities. Can you explain
But those who want to give up and who have trouble on their own seek help without requiring loved ones to force them into an institution against their will. You have also completely ignored the myriad of other reasons why kids go into programs. Interestingly in the 90s australia had the highest youth suicide rates in the world. A variety of mental health strategies were employed and none of them involved wilderness therapy, tough love or institutionalization for extended periods of time. by 2005 the rate had halved.
I say this not to play some kind of game of international 1 upmanship but to point out that there are a lot of very effective methods for helping teens with mental health issues in western cultures that do not involve programs.
Cab you show any single disorder like add or aspergers or bipolar disorder that has been cured by a program? What specific correlation between programs and a reduction in any one specific problem is there?

33
The Troubled Teen Industry / Re: What happened to ISACorp?
« on: July 21, 2010, 12:00:23 PM »
tha :notworthy: nk you

34
The Troubled Teen Industry / Re: No help for suicidal teen
« on: July 21, 2010, 11:52:41 AM »
Canada while having far less programs than the US does have a few. AARC is one and it is based on an abusive model that you and danny frequently claim does not exist anymore.
But I am glad you have brought up the international perspective. Great Britain has no programs with the exception of wellspring. Neither as far as I know does and eu country, south africa, Australia, New Zealand or and other commonwealth or oecd country that would count as having a legitimate democratic system. Yhere are legitimate boarding schools and there are jails for exceptionally criminal juvenniles who have been sentenced after being given due legal process but no where that private citizens can send kids indefinitely. None of these places have an excess of suicidal and drug addicted teens, and many a culturally very similar to the US so really this idea that without programs that remove children from the general community, american society would fall apart under the weight of crazy suicidal criminally delinquent kids does not hold weight.

35
World Wide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools (WWASPS) / Re: Trial for a Paradise Cove survivor starts.
« on: July 19, 2010, 01:37:30 AM »
I googled green river boys camp and there is still an address and phone number yet no website.
Green River Boys Camp in Cromwell, Kentucky (ky)
Name: Green River Boys Camp
Street: 354 Boys Camp Road
Cromwell, ky 42333-9607
Phone: (270) 526-3826

Cases like this always make me feel conflicted and depressed. On one hand this guy committed a pretty brutal and callous act and it seems money was at least part of the motivation. So i don't think it is so easily excused. Particularly since it was quite some time after he got out and it was not a spur of the moment crime of passion. On the other hand I dont know why his parents sent him to paradise cove but it clearly it had a tragic effect for everyone. maybe the ends justifying the means mentality reinforced some kind of sociopathy that he was already capeable of or maybe the place created a monster. I note a lot of kids coming out of places like this claim that they became capeable of anything when they hear of cases like this, but then most don't actually cross that line and commit murder. At any rate i feel for all involved in this case including the father. At the end of the day the blood of this family is in part on wwasps hands

36
Open Free for All / Re: "Isolated Incidents"
« on: July 16, 2010, 11:22:53 PM »
It turns out there is a facebook entry where a guy describes this incident. (see below) It is unbelievable that charges were not laid. It seems they took a sick kid and belted him till they finished him off.  Unfortunately it seems the boy was a ward of the state. I guess the poor kid did not have many chances in life :heartbreak:

2nd Post by Dave
Quote from: davbetz
Sorry it's taken me awhile to reply, not online that much anymore.
The incident I'm reffering to happened during the Christmas holidays in 1982. The resident who died was Phil Williams, a 16 year old from the state of Maine. Unfortunatly, Phil was a ward of the state, because his father was in jail for killing his mother. Phil was a Coordinator Trainee, and started complaining of having headaches. The staff felt that he was malingering, and doin this just so he didn't have to deal with the book (ie. give haircuts). This esculated to the point where he was GM'd and put in the ring for reacting during GM.(for those that thought the ring was only used for people who were violent, think again)After going 3 rounds, I think, hard to remember after over 20 years, Phil went unconscious and started vomitting profusely. After laying on the floor for around an hour,The "Staff" decided he should be brought to hospital. As for who these staff were, I'm sorry, but I cannot remember. It was a weekend and the regular house staff were not there, that much I remember. For what Director, there 'prolly wasn't one there.It was common practice that GM and Rings to be held with just whatever staff was on duty, no director required.
The following Monday, that hack of a nurse they had, came in to tell the house that what Phil died from was an enbolism and that he 'prolly would have died anyways, regardless of the ring (pretty convienent for Elan, I imagine)
Myself, 2 other residents and a staff member did go to his funeral. I'm glad Elan showed this amount of respect.
As for an investigation, I doubt there even was one. Noone ever came to house in an official capacity and asked questions of the residents. This is most likely due to he had no family to push the issue.
I would like to think that if Phil had recieved proper madical treatment prior to being in the ring, maybe he would have been ok. But this is something I'll never know.Guard with jealous attention the public Liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that Jewel. Unfortunately, Nothing will Preserve it but downright Force. Whenever you Give Up that Force, you are ruined.....The Great Object is that every man be armed.....Everyone who is able may have a gun.
- Patrick Henry[/quot

37
Facility Question and Answers / Re: Rock Point School
« on: July 16, 2010, 02:34:16 AM »
I am not suggesting that there is anything sinister about rock point itself. But which precise treatment centres allow kids the freedom of a normal boarding school? Which allow complete freedom of communication with the outside world. How many refuse to take kids that make it clear that they don't want to attend? How many refuse "escorted" kids on the grounds that it is unethical and an unhelpful way to begin treatment? What programs consult extensively with the patient on issues like medication? Do any that you are intimately aquainted with allow the patients to opt out of group therapy if it is not for them? Why do so many monitor phone commuicatio if there is nothing to hide? More importantly if this model for dealing with difficult and challenging teens is so successful, why is it only practiced in North America? Given that american kids are statistically no more or less unruly than their european counterparts why is there a need at all? Most countries have moved away from an institutional model for dealing with mental illness and anti social conduct in all but the most extreme cases. This is the same when it comes to incarcerating juvennile criminals. It does happen but only when the kid is a true danger to the community or a chronic repeat offender. Given that the US has some excellent universities and some pioneers in the field of issues like trauma therapy, attachment theory and drug and alcohol counselling  and spectrum disorders who all argree with and are responsible in some cases for the research that suggests institutionalization is a bad option, it is really hard to see this model as anything but a cynical way to make money from families that are in crisis.
Look at practitioners like Judith Herman and erich lindemann and see what they have to say.

38
Open Free for All / Re: "Isolated Incidents"
« on: July 15, 2010, 01:49:48 AM »
Ursus and I have discussed and debated this issue in relation to boystown, (see the tti industry thread) To my mind any school or institution that takes is pupils/patients ect against their will and seems to have something to hide so limits the ability to communicate freely with the outside world or has rules that by basic community standards would be considered unreasonable should be viewed suspiciously. Usually if there is some reason to hide things it is because nothing good is happening.
I would argue that the response to the "isolated incident" is important. It is rare but occasionally at normal schools tragedies occur within the context of sports games etc. Usually the kid is rushed to hospital immediately. it is only within this industry that i have ever heard of any time being given to debating or "monotoring" the validity of the kid's complaint. I am actually surprised that more kids are not injured by this industry which is why i think it is less about looking at "death counts" as such and more about the general practices of a place. For instance i don't know of any kid who died in "the ring" at Elan but i still find it staggering that this practice existed till 2000.

39
Facility Question and Answers / Re: Rock Point School
« on: July 15, 2010, 01:22:41 AM »
I posted this in the other forum too-I think it needs to be remembered that woodbury will promote anything if there is a potential referral buck along the road. This in and of itself is not what makes a place good or bad. I have read some criticisms of rock point for being academically flaky, but none that would suggest any informed consent issues or concerning "therapies" being performed. I suspect the reason why it is promoted by Struggling teens is that it may attract a similar type of kid to many of those sent into the industry. Ie a kid who for whatever reason had trouble of some kind at their last school or in a standard public school setting. I would be asking more questions if it had staff with extensive industry expreince or any rules that appeared unreasonable or any reports of systemic abuse from ex students.
Having looked at the school's own site one thing i did notice that they have that concerned me a little was a level system. I fairness it looks reasonable enough with the "priviledges" being things that some kids at some normal boarding schools have limited access to like their own cell phone. It would be interesting to hear from son of serbia or another ex student on this level system

40
The Troubled Teen Industry / Re: Rock Point School
« on: July 15, 2010, 12:04:35 AM »
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Samara"
There was a poster named Son of Serbia who went to CEDU. He did talk about a school (not a program) that worked very well for him after CEDU. But it wasn't a program - nor was it based on punitive, insular, or synanon practices. It was a real school geared for kids who think differetly, based on respect. It didn't tear apart families etc. and it in no way resembled a program. (Serb is extremely independent minded and a staunch opponent of a program like CEDU. I wish I remembered the school. It was in Vermont.)
It's called Rock Point School. Son of Serbia mentioned it here, here, and here (and, in some cases, a subsequent post in addition to noted link).

I am aware of this place 'cuz there is a negative review of Hyde School on Lon's site, written by a couple who pulled their daughter from Hyde. They subsequently enrolled her at Rock Point School, and ended up also submitting a positive review for the latter.

As a qualifying comment on the latter, I should add that it doesn't sound like their daughter had yet completed the year ... at the time that said positive review was written, although I might be interpreting that incorrectly. I think the parents were just sooooo happy that Rock Point wasn't as punitively based, coercive, and dishonest as Hyde was, and felt compelled to point out that difference!

It's also mentioned on the Hyde forum a few times: here, and here, and some other conversation that I can't find right now.

Although I'm not really in a position to judge, I would say it's a bit of a concern to me that Lon Woodbury apparently thinks so highly of them. Just sayin' ... as a word of caution.

I think it needs to be remembered that woodbury will promote anything if there is a potential referral buck along the road. This in and of itself is not what makes a lace good or bad. I have read some criticisms of  rock point for being academically flaky, but none that would suggest any informed consent issues or concerning "therapies" being performed. I suspect the reason why it is promoted by Struggling teens is that it may attract a similar type of kid to many of those sent into the industry. Ie a kid who for whatever reason had trouble of some kind at their last school or in a standard public school setting. I would be asking more questions if it had staff with extensive industry expreince or any rules that appeared unreasonable or any reports of systemic abuse from ex students

41
Feed Your Head / Re: JRC on NightLine Tonight
« on: July 12, 2010, 12:30:44 AM »
can you please provide a link?

42
Open Free for All / Re: Masters of Social Work
« on: July 08, 2010, 01:18:04 AM »
I think so. Given that the converse seems to be true. Sometimes a bridging course is required but i think that is more for if english is not your first language. These guys are the main body that Australian social workers pay membership to. But they also answer inquiries. My understanding is that the difficult thing is passing the skills migration test to get into the country. If they recognize your degree i assume you are OK.
http://www.aasw.asn.au/whatwedo/interna ... ifications

43
Open Free for All / Re: Masters of Social Work
« on: July 07, 2010, 07:52:39 PM »
It depends on whether you want to work internationally i think. I know that the UK requires a proper social work degree or a masters in it but they have several recruitment firms looking for internationals to do it. I am doing a MA in social work now and this will enable me to work here or in the UK canada the US and most other similar western countries.
Sociology is a bit more theoretical. More like something you would do as an undergrad like poli sci. It is the study of cultures and issues like class, religion etc. It is interesting but not really a practical second degree kind of thing. By contrast social work is more practical. Like last semester i studied trauma and grief and loss counselling. This semester i am doing public social policy. There is also a prac/field placement that involves working in the industry. Any social work degree or masters worth its salt has this element.

44
World Wide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools (WWASPS) / Re: Perry will go down due to corruption and Casa by the sea
« on: June 30, 2010, 02:50:15 AM »
that would make sense. Though 40 years is a pretty long time

45
World Wide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools (WWASPS) / Re: Perry will go down due to corruption and Casa by the sea
« on: June 29, 2010, 10:44:22 PM »
I am not on the jury so I have no idea whether this kid committed this crime. I am truly sorry for the families of the dead woman and boy. But I am horrified that a crime committed by someone so young could get the death penalty. Like Oscar I am from a country opposed to the death penalty. I don't understand how a state whose prominent politicians have argued that life is sacred when opposing euthenasia or abortion can also argue in favor of putting someone to death. I may misunderstand the law but cant they give him 40 years for each murder? i thought that happened in tx from time to time. I do agree with Oscar that describing Casa as an alternative school to the jury is far from accurate. At the end of the day we are all responsible morally and socially for what we do but the combination of that kind of brutality and a culture that not only discourages the idea of morality as a motivation but that encourages brutality as a way of getting ahead sends a pretty unhealthy message to kids who are at a vulnerable stage of development. If the kid already has some issues I think this is a legitimate argument for a mitigating factor.

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