Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Aspen Education Group => Brat Camp => Topic started by: Anonymous on August 08, 2005, 10:43:00 PM
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Which is not to say that Brat Camp, with its nine hard-to-handle hellions, won't deliver more than its fair share of eye-openers and jaw-droppers. (It should be noted that the series carries a TV-14, L ? for language ? rating.) "These kids wouldn't be in a camp like this if they were just being 'brats.' There's a lot more to it," says Grodner. "Their parents are at their wits' end, and this is the last option for these families who have tried a lot of things."
There is no cash prize at the end of Brat Camp. No torches to be snuffed or roses to be handed out. No recording contracts. The only winners are the kids who elect to choose the right path. "This is not a game. There are light moments, as there are heavy moments, but these are serious issues. This show is truthful and honest and raw. People will be shocked."
Nine kids, with nine sets of inner demons to overcome. Can viewers expect nine happy endings? "This is a real show, so there are absolutely no guarantees," insists Grodner. "These are [problems] that sometimes take a lot more time than 60-plus days in the wilderness [to resolve]. I will tell you that there are some incredibly dramatic turnarounds ? but maybe not for everyone."
But if all goes as wished, Brat Camp will help many more families than the nine featured on the program. "What we always hope with a show like this is that it makes an impression on the audience and helps people find help and learn from it," says Grodner. "If we can touch other lives, that's amazing."
http://entertainment.excite.com/celebgo ... 005_2.html (http://entertainment.excite.com/celebgossip/tvginsider/id/07_13_2005_2.html)
Yeah, real amazing. Ruin the lives of the 9 teens who now, no matter what they do, will always be remembered as the BRAT TEENS.
The good news is according to a recent poll, parents are evenly divided on whether they would send their own kid to a BRAT CAMP. (and that was BEFORE the news that 2 campers had already gotten in trouble with the law after finishing their wilderness (cough-cough) therapy.
:wave:
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Does that imply that ABC is going to pay the tuition for 'many' future contestants?
Another clever program scam. Rip off school districts, IRS, insurance companies. Now they have the american viewing audience, via ABC, providing free advertisement AND paying for guarenteed placements. Repulsive.
Or was it the production company that paid the tuitions? Either way....
[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2005-08-08 20:18 ]
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The good news is according to a recent poll, parents are evenly divided on whether they would send their own kid to a BRAT CAMP.
Evenly divided is good news? That's half the kids in the country who are in danger of abuse.
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it's playing on the fact that people (esp. americians) really go for free things, even if you don't really need the thing being offered, "hey, it's free, and you get to be on tv (stars in the eyes, on teevee, whooeee)." media is largely owned by some of the most evil beings on the planet, trying to fulfll an agenda. we've heard that all before. obviously, abc couldn't start handing out free vouchers to wilderness programs and rtc's to the viewing audience, out of nowhere, so they use their position to make a show, garner support, and at the same time round up as many kids as they can from families who otherwise wouldn't be willing to shell out the dough. they are trying to destroy youth.
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http://www.sentinelandenterprise.com/local/ci_2923498 (http://www.sentinelandenterprise.com/local/ci_2923498)
Most local teens interviewed Friday slammed the show's deceptive tactics.
"I would be angry," said Ashley Leblanc, 15, of Gardner. "I would want (my parents) to talk to me about whatever the problem was before sending me off to this place."
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These kids were tricked," Michaelson said. "That's probably not the best way to negotiate with an adolescent."
Michaelson said kids are likely to become angry about being put into a program like this without full knowledge of what it entails.
"They're fighting the betrayal and the lie," he said. "You set yourself up for a possibility of more problem behavior."
Also, while an experience such as that provided by "Brat Camp" may improve some teens' behavior, Michaelson said cameras shouldn't be there to capture it.
"It's such a personal experience," he said. "To be tricked and then to be taped is really demeaning to these kids. You're saying, 'You have no voice, and we're going to exploit you.'"
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Hopefully these kids won't be sent to any long-term facilities. As fucked and acutely dangerous as "boot camp" might be, at least the kids get out of there in a month or two.
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On 2005-08-11 05:11:00, bandit1978 wrote:
"Hopefully these kids won't be sent to any long-term facilities. As fucked and acutely dangerous as "boot camp" might be, at least the kids get out of there in a month or two.
"
At least one of them, Heather, has. Anyone know which one? Who is paying? I hope it's not the TV company. I don't want to see a Brat Gulag follow-on.
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On 2005-08-11 05:11:00, bandit1978 wrote:
"Hopefully these kids won't be sent to any long-term facilities. As fucked and acutely dangerous as "boot camp" might be, at least the kids get out of there in a month or two.
"
Indeed! If we choose to violate the rights of the innocent in order to discover and act against the guilty, then we have transformed our country into a police state and abandoned one of the fundamental tenants of a free society. In order to win the war on drugs, we must not sacrifice the life of the Constitution in the battle.
--US District Judge H. Lee Sarokin
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I wouldn't exactly call SageWalk "boot camp". Most of them clearly needed TBS placement after SageWalk. Nick needed some other sort of specialized school.
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I'm sure that any services those kids need are available in their communities, particularly Nick. He doen't need any 'specialize school'. 'Residential therapy' was never a good idea, because the beginning assumption- that behavior is changed with isolation and punishment-
is inaccurate. And there's ample research to indicate such.
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I wouldn't call SageWalk isolation and punishment either. Deborah, take off those filtering glasses through which you view everything and look at the reality.
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I'm assuming that you consider your opinions and perception to be 'Reality'. Can't join you there.
The comment was to the need for TBS, which is most definitely isolation and punishment....
24/7.
Wilderness is just a shorter version that carries a whole different level of risks for injury or death.
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Most TBSs are not based on isolation and punishment. You continue to post erroneous information and I continue to correct you.
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Uh huh, :lol: and who's out of touch with reality?
Incarceration may actually be more accurate. What do you think? Although, I do think that being held incommunicado with minimal contact with family and the outside world (the real world) is considered isolation. Like inmates in prison....
Punishment.........
suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution b: a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure (kids don't even get the benefit of due process)
FYI, BM is considered punishment. You can pretty it up and blame the kid by calling it 'consequences', but same-same. Limiting calories or contact with parent to gain compliance is punishment. I could go on... and on. Not in the mood.
I'm non-negotiable on Punishment. Totally appropros. We might add- living under a microscope and punished for every perceived minor infraction 24/7. That's an excellent technique for creating paranoia.
You're arguement might be more 'real' and believable if you just copped to TBS being both... but, that you consider isolation and punishment to be 'therapeutic'. Isn't that the truth?
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On 2005-08-11 10:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I wouldn't call SageWalk isolation and punishment either. Deborah, take off those filtering glasses through which you view everything and look at the reality."
That's because you're a fucking retard.
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I was wondering if it makes you feel BIG and IMPORTANT to use foul language and insults. You sure named yourself correctly.
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Anonymous said---
"Most TBSs are not based on isolation and punishment. You continue to post erroneous information and I continue to correct you."----
What FACTS do you have to support this statement?
Do you have first hand experience in these matters?
Or are you just using your personal opinions as a basis to "correct" someone else?
Anonymous also said ----"I wouldn't call SageWalk isolation and punishment either. Deborah, take off those filtering glasses through which you view everything and look at the reality."----
Are you basing this OPINION on television's portrayal of Brat Camp? If so, I cant help wonder if you are one of those people who's perception of reality is shaped entirely by television shows. Sad.
Differences of opinion are one thing, but having the nerve to "correct" someone just because you disagree is infuriating.
I suppose it makes YOU feel big and important to try to pass off your opinions as reality.
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I have personal experience. When you are in a school with a 100 or so other teens, going to classes, going to group therapy, playing sports, journaling......this is not isolation and punishment. There are consequences for not following rules- just as there are supposed to be in the outside world. TBSs are based on getting to the source of the individual's pain and anger, not on isolation and punishment.
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Isolation from the world thats NOT THE PROGRAM, anon.
Furthermore, the biggest problem (that I have at least, probably more) is the damn use of those LGA type seminars/workshops. Its culty as hell, not effective, and makes them spew out bullshit non-stop with the seminar-speak and be all about 'feelings', not thought. And its damaging to a lot of people.
Now, as far as punishment goes, you can punish someone within the framework of all that shit. AFAIK even Tranquility Bay lets them play soccer once in a while, but the 'group therapy' is basically torture.
Plus plenty of programs dont do that at all. The only way we know is what some anonymous twit tells us becuase therye so damned secretive and ISOLATED!Come the millennium,
month 12,
in the home of greatest power,
the village idiot will come forth to
be acclaimed the leader.
--Nostradamus
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Was your personal experience as one of those students, staff, parent, or a mere program advocate who only views programs by how they appear on paper, what? Please specify...I'm curious. In all fairness...my experience is that of a kid (now adult) that went through a highly abusive program many years ago.
Of course there are consequences in the real world for not following the rules, as there should be. And yes, kids should learn why certain rules are important. For example, stealing is a crime and you will go to jail for it, so in a program for instance, if a kid steals something, there should be appropriate consequences, just w/o punishment using isolation, abuse etc. So yes, its perfectly acceptable to teach kids the importance of following REASONABLE rules as long as those lessons are taught WITHOUT isolation, WITHOUT abusive punishment, WITHOUT extreme coercion & mind control...etc.
If your experience is based on one the few decent programs out there, then please explain that too. If that is your experience, quite frankly I would be skeptical, but all ears if it REALLY was decent.
BTW, most of the views around here ARE based on first hand experience. And, those experiences were far from the sunny idealistic picture you just painted.
True, not all programs are the same, but way too many of them employ very questionable tactics at best, while others blatently abuse kids, or completely break them down and terrorize kids to get them to follow their so-called ridiculous rules, which is UNACCEPTABLE.
No one is saying that kids should be disobedient little hellions who dont have to obey rules...but when isolation is used and when other punishments go far beyond reasonableness, to the point kids are scared to death, those methods are inappropriate, counter-productive, and destroys the children subected to it.
Treating kids like animals or criminals IS NOT therapy.
In my opinion, therapy should be communication, listening, feedback, suggestions, and dealing with a kid's anger and pain with compassion and understanding(nonexistant in my program experience). Consequences, if needed, should be humane and proportionate to real misdeeds, not imaginary misdeeds created by excessive and pointless rules.
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Oh? So we could round you up (against your will) and place you in a warehouse with 100 other people (whose company you may or may not enjoy); sever contact with your loved ones; no phone, tv, newspapers; and you wouldn't feel isolated or unjustly incarcerated?
And you wouldn't feel unjustly punished if your very limited contact with your loved ones or food was denied/limited as a consequence? Or if you had to sleep outside in a lean-to for a week? Or held in an illegal restraint? Or lost your month's supply of toilet paper?
And let's talk about those consequences for breaking the 'rules'. The program that abused my son called their rules 'agreements'. How much more indirectly manipulative could it get?
For all intents and purposes, these warehouses are nothing more than glorified, high-dollar psych hospitals. Really not much difference at all, except that some 'try' to avoid drugs and pediatric psych hospitals have stricter regulations and 'consequences' for violations- contrary to programs. Someone got the bright idea that if you called these facilities 'schools' or 'academies' you could avoid state 'rules' and self-regulate. Damn. They should be consequened for their ODD.
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On 2005-08-11 14:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I was wondering if it makes you feel BIG and IMPORTANT to use foul language and insults. You sure named yourself correctly."
No, it doesn't. Just pointing out the obvious.
It makes me feel the same as if I said "I ate breakfast, " or "The dog wants to come in." My feelings don't change either way.
I guess the real question is how do you feel when people point out that you're obtuse? Seems like it makes you want to lash out and shift the focus.
Have a great day! :wave:
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The things you are describing (Deborah) bear no resemblance to what occurs in MOST programs. I wonder how much of them are figments of your imagination or your child's exaggeration.
There was no withholding of food, there was some access to newspapers and lots of access to books, there was plenty of toilet paper.
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On 2005-08-12 07:18:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The things you are describing (Deborah) bear no resemblance to what occurs in MOST programs. I wonder how much of them are figments of your imagination or your child's exaggeration.
There was no withholding of food, there was some access to newspapers and lots of access to books, there was plenty of toilet paper."
Exactly how many programs have you personally visited and verified your statement?
Were you IN a program?
If yes, which one?
It appears that you may need an education in discerning between facts and opinions. You say "MOST" programs are not what Deborah describes, but can you verify this statement empirically?
You seem to be stating that you have personally visited at least 51% ("most")of the existing facilities and have deemed no abuse (as described by Deborah) occurred in any of them.
It sounds like you are opining, but have no facts to corroborate your opinion.
Please tell us how many programs you inspected and the names of those programs.
Thank You,
DJ
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Anonymous said -----"The things you are describing (Deborah) bear no resemblance to what occurs in MOST programs. I wonder how much of them are figments of your imagination or your child's exaggeration."
For the sake of arguement, and without conceding my position, let's assume for a sec that statement is true....
That would mean, most dont but some do...essentially you are arguing and agreeing that these treatment program horror stories described by Deborah and others sometimes DO occur....
and if they occur at all, that is intolerable!
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Any abuses in treatment are intolerable. However, the position on this forum that ALL programs are terrible and abusive and ALL parents who send their kids to programs are bad parents who are giving up their kids for someone else to raise is ridiculous.
Whenever someone tries to point our success stories from programs- whether it be a student or a parent- you just slam them, insult them, swear at them and accuse them of being brain-washed.
I think we can all agree that there have been abuses and that there have been bad programs- many of them out of the country. No parent would want their child in an abusive program. There are kids who desperately need a program and need what you call behavioral modification. There are plenty of adults who need behavioral modification! Many of us have had to learn to modify some of our behaviors in order to keep jobs. If we aren't mature enough to do so, we lose the job. Most teenagers who are having the substance, behavior and/or anger problems that lead to a program placement have not yet developed the maturity to understand what is going on inside of them and what the long term consequences of their actions can be. They have stopped respecting and listening to parents and teachers- for various reasons. The families have become dysfunctional and the parents are unable to help the teen.
There is no intent to send the kid off to be abused or raised by someone else. The intent is to keep the teen safe while he or she gets therapeutic help, matures, and is ready to show respect for authority and society.
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On 2005-08-12 09:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
Many of us have had to learn to modify some of our behaviors in order to keep jobs. If we aren't mature enough to do so, we lose the job.
Sometimes we refuse to modify our behavior for reasons other than lack of maturity. I refused, over and over again, to play office politics. But it wasn't a lack of maturity that kept me from trashing someone else for my own benefit. It was a point of character that I learned early on; as a victim of such tactics as well as from good role models who I admired for their strength.
As a result, I've never worked in the same office for more than a year or two. Sucks, huh? No, not really. Instead, we get to work from home for good people who we can trust and respect. And we make a decent living at it, too. So, in the end, I really do not regret my stubborn refusal to mould myself into whatever kind of petty tyrant might have succeeded under those circumstances.
That's where I have a problem w/ coerced behavior mod. What if you're dead wrong and your kid is entirely correct? Never considered that possability, have you? It is unethical and fool hearty to remove that free will from another human being and then call it therapy.
The strength of the Constitution lies entirely in the determination of each citizen to defend it. Only if every single citizen feels duty bound to do his share in this defense are constitutional rights secure.
-- Albert Einstein
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Are the kids who are stealing, wrecking cars, using drugs, ruining their educations, terrorizing family members with violence right? No-sorry, I didn't consider the possibilty that we were dead wrong and our kid was right.
Well, good for you for refusing to play office politics. Many of us who have jobs have to arrive on time, not fall asleep at work, complete assignments correctly, be respectful towards customers and many more things. Is it really that much of an imposition for an employee to control his impulses enough to be a productive member of the work force? We all have free will, and we can choose not to work, but if we do want to make a living, in most cases it involves some compromises.
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"Whenever someone tries to point our success stories from programs- whether it be a student or a parent- you just slam them, insult them, swear at them and accuse them of being brain-washed."
That's simply not true. In each and every case, I ask for specifics.
You say "My program was great." I say, "Which one was it and when were you or your kid enrolled?" This is where the problems with the dialogue begin.
Every single time, to a person, the program supporter REFUSES TO GIVE DETAILS, and hides behind the excuse "I don't want to compromise my identity." This is a lame excuse used solely to avoid having to speak in factual terms.
So, I'll ask you , anon, in which program did you enroll your child, when, and for how long?
If you'll be kind enough to answer that question, we can talk about your child's diagnosis, treatment plan for that diagnosis, and the particulars of the facility's program.
I think what you'll find is that people on this board are intelligent critical thinkers. What bothers most program supporters is that the folks who respond to their fallacious arguments can't be snowed over with B.S. "program one-liners."
So, please, do tell. Which program, when and for how long?
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Anon- name your program
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We've been through this before- it just deteriorates into more name-calling and slamming the program and it's methods.
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Your circular reasoning is...making...me...dizzy...
My question, then, is why are you here? What is your purpose of posting on this board if it is not to discuss the validity of treatment modalities?
I will be happy to discuss "your program" in an intelligent and respectful manner. You seem not to want any real discussion.
Whether you understand it or not, this is typical program dogma.
"You will listen to what I say because I SAID SO. You will do as I say because I SAID SO. I need not provide any rationale for my beliefs or behaviors, but you MUST FOLLOW MY DIRECTION WITHOUT QUESTION."
What kind of thought process is that?
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At least tell us about your program- how does it work and for whom,+ provide some scientific and psychological rationale.
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On 2005-08-12 09:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Any abuses in treatment are intolerable. However, the position on this forum that ALL programs are terrible and abusive and ALL parents who send their kids to programs are bad parents who are giving up their kids for someone else to raise is ridiculous.
Whenever someone tries to point our success stories from programs- whether it be a student or a parent- you just slam them, insult them, swear at them and accuse them of being brain-washed.
I think we can all agree that there have been abuses and that there have been bad programs- many of them out of the country. No parent would want their child in an abusive program. There are kids who desperately need a program and need what you call behavioral modification. There are plenty of adults who need behavioral modification! Many of us have had to learn to modify some of our behaviors in order to keep jobs. If we aren't mature enough to do so, we lose the job. Most teenagers who are having the substance, behavior and/or anger problems that lead to a program placement have not yet developed the maturity to understand what is going on inside of them and what the long term consequences of their actions can be. They have stopped respecting and listening to parents and teachers- for various reasons. The families have become dysfunctional and the parents are unable to help the teen.
There is no intent to send the kid off to be abused or raised by someone else. The intent is to keep the teen safe while he or she gets therapeutic help, matures, and is ready to show respect for authority and society."
I don't like the slamming and insulting, either. But as for the brainwashing, hey, if the shoe fits... Read any article on cults and brainwashing and these programs fit the description too well to ignore.
Does it work? Maybe. Are there success stories? Okay, if you say so, I won't argue the point. The success ratio is questionable. But is it right to do this to an individual? No, definitely not. The means is just wrong, regardless of the outcome.
As for respect for authority and society, earn it! I have little respect for authority when I see the lying thugs that run the country and little respect for the hypocritical society in which we live.
I teach my kids to question authority and try to change society. If someone doesn't, we are all doomed.
Since I've managed to live over 40 years without ever being arrested and have worked for the same company for over 20 years, I can attest that respect for authority and society are not prerequisites for success.
As for modifying behavior to keep a job, that is your choice; and that is the whole point. Your employer is not permitted to lock you up and make you change.
In juvenile justice they use the term 'status offense' for acts that are not allowed for juveniles but would not be illegal for an adult; ie truancy or running away. We need a term for acts committed where, if the victim is an adult it is called a crime, but if the victim is a juvenile it is legal; ie forced abductions and false imprisonment. We also need to extend to the law to make these illegal acts when perpetrated against kids.
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Here in the UK nearly 4000 families applied for the new series to be aired next week on Channel 4. Seven children, all girls were selected, of which one was my daughter.
None of the parents went into this lightly. All of us looked very carefully at the pros and cons. The biggest con being 'airing your laundry in public' plus the impact the programme would have on the child, siblings and extended family. This had absolutely nothing to do with being on TV and was all about the opportunity to help my daughter in a way that I could never afford or is available (we don't have Brat Camps in the UK). Once I knew that my daughter was likely to be selected I spoke to the parents of the previous series, read all press coverage and checked out forum boards such as this one, in the UK and US. Plus checked out the camp's safety record, approach, staff qualifications etc., before giving my daughter the choice of whether she wanted to take part - it was very much her decision.
All the girls knew to a certain extent, what they were getting into, having seen the previous series. My daughter thought she would be sitting in a stone circle eating porridge, for most of the time, yet gave up a family holiday to go to Utah. Deep down, she knew she had a big problem and she wanted help. All other avenues that we had tried had failed and we had nowhere else to turn.
Publicity for the show is everywhere, in the press, on radio, trailers (featuring amongst others, my daughter).
My daughter has received nothing but support from her friends, school and family. She's handling more negative comments from people who don't know her, or her background with humour and we all know that this weeks news is tomorrow's fish n chip paper. On the whole, the pubicity is vary positive. She WAS a brat..... she isn't now.
The cost of sending my daughter to brat camp was around £30 - £40K and now it's quid pro quo time. Given the same circumstances again, knowing what we know now, we would do it all again.
My daughter did very well at brat camp and it was certainly a positive life changing experience for her. Our family has benefited enormously from the teenager she has become as a result of it and she is happy and focussed on what she would like to achieve in her life. And she's kept in touch with all the staff, as have all those that appeared in the programme.
Was it worth it?
Boy, was it worth it!