Fornits

Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: RobertBruce on February 03, 2007, 09:43:59 PM

Title: Safety in Private sector versus Public
Post by: RobertBruce on February 03, 2007, 09:43:59 PM
So it begins......
Title: Safety in Private sector versus Public
Post by: RobertBruce on February 03, 2007, 09:47:20 PM
A topic of recent conversation has concerned where are kids safer? The public schools/sector or the private theraputic sector?

Here's how the numbers break down in comparrison:

Out of 52,000,000 public school kids 16 were killed in school

Translating to 1 out of every 3,250,000 kids being killed.

Out of those 52,000,000 6 committed suicide while in school.

Translating to 1 out of 8,666,667 kids killing themselves.

Of those same 52,000,000 kids 2140 were killed outside of school.

Translating to 1 out of every 24,300 kids being killed.

Of those same 52,000,000 public school kids 1928 kids committed suicide outside of school.

Translating to roughly 1 out of every 27,000 kids committing suicide.

Out of 30,000 kids in the private theraputic sector so far we have 7 who were killed by staff members.

Translating to 1 out of every 4,286 kids being murdered by staff.

Of those same 30,000 kids 2 committed suicide.

Translating to 1 out of every 15,000 committing suicide.

This is of course for only one year June of 1999-July 2000

Based on these numbers we can easily see that the odds are higher a kid will die in the private theraputic sector over that of a public school or simply the public sector.
Title: Safety in Private sector versus Public
Post by: Anonymous on February 03, 2007, 09:53:38 PM
(http://http://pics.schwippy.com/forums/images/make_it_stop.jpg)
Title: Safety in Private sector versus Public
Post by: RobertBruce on February 03, 2007, 09:58:39 PM
Here's what TheWho would have you believe:

July 1, 1999 thru June 2000
School aged children

Outside a TBS:
There where 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides
Inside a TBS
There where 0 Homicides and 2 suicides

There's a couple of problems with his data though that he so far has refused to recognize.


1.   The NCES which is where Cindy (TheWho) got his information broke down the deaths between those committed in school (public) and those committed outside of school.

2.  He refuses to look at any place other than his definition of a TBS, places like ASR and HLA. Now kids are dying in these places every year, Cindy however feels they don't count. I disagree.

3.  He doesn't want to include any deaths that did not result in a conviction of murder even if it was. Cindy firmly believes (as do many in the PTS) that if you can get away with something, then its fine. I fail to see why it matters as the kids are still dead regardless, and they died at someone elses hand. Accident or not.

4. He claims that Judges have ruled that none of the afore mentioned kids were murdered not understanding many of the deaths in these places are never properly handled by the authorities as companies in the PTS prefer to brush these deaths under the rug. Cindy advocates the same policy.

5.  Cindy refuses to answer questions regarding what would happen to the average person in the public sector should a child in their care die in the same manner as these kids did. He does so because the answer paints him into a corner.
Title: Safety in Private sector versus Public
Post by: RobertBruce on February 04, 2007, 12:27:17 PM
TheWho wrote:
Just for my own records, I thought I would move on and start collecting data for the next year. Which will be July1, 2000 thru June 2001.

Here is how it looks to start:

Remember this applies only to TBS?s (not group homes and hospitals etc.)

So I am simple comparing a child?s safety at a TBS (24 hours per day) vs not being at a TBS (24 hours per day)
We have this data:

July 1, 2000 thru June 2001
Outside a TBS:
There where 2,059 Homicides and 1,890 suicides
Inside a TBS
There where 0 Homicides and 0 suicides. (no data collected yet for TBS?s)


First cite your sources for your numbers, not that we don't trust you but you are a liar. Second explain why you only want to include deaths in your definition of a TBS. Not that it matters because we are counting the entire PTS.
Title: Safety in Private sector versus Public
Post by: RobertBruce on February 04, 2007, 12:35:57 PM
Here's an interesting one.

Carlton Eugene Thomas

 
17 years old
5/14/2001

Edgemeade-Raymond A. Rogers Jr. School  Restraints

I won't count this as a death in the PTS because it was a public school-albeit one for boys with emotional problems.

The interesting thing about it is that his death was ruled as a homicide and charges were filed. Further proof that regulation in this industry would lead to better oversight and make these places safer for the kids, or at the very least hold these killers respondsible.
Title: Safety in Private sector versus Public
Post by: RobertBruce on February 04, 2007, 12:42:23 PM
Eddie Lee 15 years old

9/18/2000
 
Obsidian Trails Outdoor Program
 
Restrained, reported beaten

This program recieved a glowing review from Lon Woodbury.
Title: Safety in Private sector versus Public
Post by: RobertBruce on February 04, 2007, 12:45:16 PM
Stephanie Duffield 16 years old

2/11/01

Shiloh Residential Treatment Center

Restraint
Title: Safety in Private sector versus Public
Post by: RobertBruce on February 04, 2007, 01:03:06 PM
Quote


Tanner Wilson 11 years old

2/9/01
 
Gerard, Iowa Facility

Heart attack while being physically restrained

This one actually did result in a trial, the charges(child endagerment)  were later dismissed which lead to protests (I'll try and find the details). It also lead to the IPAS ( a child protective service) suing the facility to come in at any time to investigate charges of abuse or neglect. Gerard countered that neither the IPAS or the childrens parents had the right to look at the childrens records or investigate whether or not abuse had occured. Luckily common sense prevailed and the school lost.
Title: Safety in Private sector versus Public
Post by: RobertBruce on February 04, 2007, 02:08:05 PM
Ryan Lewis 14

2/13/01

suicide

Allredge Academy

boy that was a bad week for the pts
Title: Safety in Private sector versus Public
Post by: RobertBruce on February 04, 2007, 02:11:20 PM
15-year-old Arizona girl died May 27, 2001 after hiking with an Oregon-based wilderness therapy program (Catherine Freer program, same place they did Brat Camp) in the mountains north of Tonopah, Nev., a spokesman for the program confirmed.
Title: Safety in Private sector versus Public
Post by: RobertBruce on February 04, 2007, 02:24:54 PM
June 2001 Anthony Haynes

American Buffalo Re-Enactors Association-a boot camp.

Combination of dehydration (being forced to stand in 111 degree heat at attention in a black uniform for hours on end) and then being drowned in a bathtub.

This one actually lead to the closer of the boot camp and jail time for the owner and untrained staff member who killed him.
Title: Safety in Private sector versus Public
Post by: Deborah on February 04, 2007, 02:37:15 PM
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
Here's an interesting one.
Carlton Eugene Thomas
17 years old
5/14/2001
Edgemeade-Raymond A. Rogers Jr. School  Restraints

I won't count this as a death in the PTS because it was a public school-albeit one for boys with emotional problems.
The interesting thing about it is that his death was ruled as a homicide and charges were filed. Further proof that regulation in this industry would lead to better oversight and make these places safer for the kids, or at the very least hold these killers respondsible.


A 17-year-old residential student at a Prince George's County, Md., private school for troubled teenage boys has died after a scuffle with a faculty member who had tried to subdue him. Carlton Eugene Thomas, 17, was a student at Edgemeade-Raymond A. Rogers Jr. School since 1999. Washington Post.
Baltimore Sun.

The death of a Prince George's County student at a [non profit] school for emotionally disturbed boys in May has been ruled a homicide, county police said yesterday.
Title: Safety in Private sector versus Public
Post by: RobertBruce on February 04, 2007, 02:52:25 PM
Okay so far the numbers break down as follows:

In the public sector out of 52,000,000 kids 2059 were killed outside of school, roughly translating to:

1 out of every 25,255 kids being killed outside of school.

of those same 52,000,000 1,890 committed suicide outside of school.

Translating to roughly

1 out of every 27,513 kids committing suicide outside of school.

In the Private Theraputic Sector out of 30,000 kids 5 kids were killed by staff members, translating to:

1 out of every 6000 kids being killed by staff members.

Of those same 30,000 kids 1 committed suicide, translating to:

1 out of every 30,000 kids killing themselves.

While this appears to be an improvement over the previous year the odds are a kid is still more likely to be killed by a staff member in the private theraputic sector than he is on the streets, but slightly less likely to kill himself, slightly.  


Maybe it'll get better as we move along.
Title: Safety in Private sector versus Public
Post by: RobertBruce on February 04, 2007, 02:55:37 PM
Quote
A 17-year-old residential student at a Prince George's County, Md., private school for troubled teenage boys has died after a scuffle with a faculty member who had tried to subdue him. Carlton Eugene Thomas, 17, was a student at Edgemeade-Raymond A. Rogers Jr. School since 1999. Washington Post.
Baltimore Sun.

The death of a Prince George's County student at a [non profit] school for emotionally disturbed boys in May has been ruled a homicide, county police said yesterday.
_________________


My mistake, thank you Deborah. So then that changes our total to 6 out of 30,000 changing the odds to 1 out of every 5000.

That's still a little better than the previous year.
Title: Safety in Private sector versus Public
Post by: Anonymous on February 04, 2007, 06:12:32 PM
Robert?

There aren't 30,000 kids.

There's maybe 20,000.

Don't confuse TheWho's numbers with reality.
Title: Safety in Private sector versus Public
Post by: RobertBruce on February 04, 2007, 06:25:58 PM
My mistake.

So that changes our figures for kids in the private theraputic sector  to 1 out of every 3,334 kids being killed by staff members.

and

1 out of every 20,000 kids committing.

I guess things still have a long way to go afterall.

For the previous year we have

1 out of every 2,857 kids being killed by staff members

and

1 out of every 10,000 killing themselves.

Still proving that the public sector is safer than the private theraputic one.
Title: Safety in Private sector versus Public
Post by: RobertBruce on February 04, 2007, 08:08:21 PM
Here's what Cindy wants you to believe the data says for the year in question

Quote
July 1, 2000 thru June 2001

Outside a TBS:
There where 2,059 Homicides and 1,890 suicides
Inside a TBS
There where 0 Homicides and 1 suicides. (Data still being collected for TBS?s)


Cindy believes the six other kids who lost their lives don't matter.
Title: Safety in Private sector versus Public
Post by: RobertBruce on February 05, 2007, 12:48:27 PM
Here is the data including those deaths that occured in the public schoosl:

The data for the year in question stands as follows:

In the public sector out of 52,000,000 kids 2059 were killed outside of school, roughly translating to:

1 out of every 25,255 kids being killed outside of school.

Of those same 52,000,000 1,890 committed suicide outside of school.

Translating to roughly

1 out of every 27,513 kids committing suicide outside of school.

In school out of 52,000,000 17 kids were killed. Translating to:

1 out of every 3,058,824 kids being killed in school.

Of those same 52,000,000 5 kids committed suicide while in school.

Translating to:

1 out of every 10,400,000 kids killing themselves while in school.

In the Private Theraputic Sector out of 20,000 kids 6 kids were killed by staff members, translating to:

1 out of every 3,334 kids being killed by staff members.

Of those same 20,000 kids 1 committed suicide, translating to:

1 out of every 20,000 kids killing themselves.
Title: Safety in Private sector versus Public
Post by: MightyAardvark on February 05, 2007, 04:48:32 PM
So a child enrolled at a therapeutic behavioural modification facility is three thousand six hundred and forty times more likely to be killed in any given year than a child enrolled in the public education system.
This data included inner city Los Angeles, yes?
Title: Safety in Private sector versus Public
Post by: RobertBruce on February 05, 2007, 06:35:33 PM
Yes it does. How damning is that? A kid is more likely to be killed in one of these places then he is walking down the streets of east compton.
Title: Safety in Private sector versus Public
Post by: Nihilanthic on February 05, 2007, 07:55:22 PM
Quote from: ""MightyAardvark""
So a child enrolled at a therapeutic behavioural modification facility is three thousand six hundred and forty times more likely to be killed in any given year than a child enrolled in the public education system.
This data included inner city Los Angeles, yes?


The safe warehouse argument has now been completely discredited.

LON starts to spin by saying "kids who need programs are x times more likely" by pulling it out of his ass in 5...4...3...
Title: Safety in Private sector versus Public
Post by: Anonymous on February 06, 2007, 05:41:53 PM
i hope you all realize that your numbers, apart from deaths but specifically including "murdered", rely mostly on your own daffynition of "murder".  but even accepting that a death is nore likely in a private sector place than in the public at large, you ignore the reality that those in the private sector places are there because they already present some heightened risks to themselves and/or others.  that is a bit like saying 1992 cars are less reliable than 2007 cars because they require more repairs -- ignoring the wear and tear the 92s have undergone.
Title: Safety in Private sector versus Public
Post by: Anonymous on February 06, 2007, 05:53:57 PM
Fuck off, cunt. We know it's you, O5, and your arguments make just as little sense as ever.

::both::
Title: Safety in Private sector versus Public
Post by: psy on February 06, 2007, 06:01:43 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
i hope you all realize that your numbers, apart from deaths but specifically including "murdered", rely mostly on your own daffynition of "murder".  but even accepting that a death is nore likely in a private sector place than in the public at large, you ignore the reality that those in the private sector places are there because they already present some heightened risks to themselves and/or others.  that is a bit like saying 1992 cars are less reliable than 2007 cars because they require more repairs -- ignoring the wear and tear the 92s have undergone.


yawn... so you support sending kids with suicidal tendencies to "emotional growth" boarding schools then?
Title: Safety in Private sector versus Public
Post by: hanzomon4 on February 06, 2007, 06:38:20 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
i hope you all realize that your numbers, apart from deaths but specifically including "murdered", rely mostly on your own daffynition of "murder".  but even accepting that a death is nore likely in a private sector place than in the public at large, you ignore the reality that those in the private sector places are there because they already present some heightened risks to themselves and/or others.  that is a bit like saying 1992 cars are less reliable than 2007 cars because they require more repairs -- ignoring the wear and tear the 92s have undergone.


Dear Guest, It's not the issues that kill these kids it's the programs. Even "normal" people placed in these programs would(do) crack.
It's the bullet, not the body it cuts though, that kills...
Title: Safety in Private sector versus Public
Post by: RobertBruce on February 06, 2007, 07:18:01 PM
Quote
that is a bit like saying 1992 cars are less reliable than 2007 cars because they require more repairs -- ignoring the wear and tear the 92s have undergone.


Oh I know Anne of St. Paul Minnesota, just as soon as the warranty goes out on kids they start fucking up! Don't you just hate that?
Title: Safety in Private sector versus Public
Post by: Nihilanthic on February 06, 2007, 10:29:26 PM
*cough*

Lots of newer cars are problematic. The real thing?

1. Shittier construction with newer things more often than not - electrically speaking that is

2. With older cars you KNOW WHAT WILL GO WRONG. With new cars you're constantly waiting on something to fuck up, 'cause you don't know what it is yet!

But I think the moral of the story is that programs are 30 years old and we still won't admit to ourselves what is wrong with them, even though the SAME FUCKING THING HAPPENS IN EVERY PROGRAM CONSISTENTLY  :flame:
Title: Safety in Private sector versus Public
Post by: MightyAardvark on February 07, 2007, 08:05:32 AM
okay so let's work on the assuption that kids in programs represent an inherently higher risk population than the general public due to the fact that at least some of them are going to have some problems, they're not being set away for being too nice afterall.
Let's compare death rates amongst program kids to death rates amongst juvenile offenders.
While we are at it why don't we compare recidivism rates and the rates of drug related hospital admission.

submissions anyone?
Title: Safety in Private sector versus Public
Post by: teachback on February 07, 2007, 08:26:52 AM
Quote from: ""MightyAardvark""
submissions anyone?

I'm sure TheWho and RobertBruce can provide them.
Title: Safety in Private sector versus Public
Post by: Deborah on February 07, 2007, 08:39:37 AM
Quote from: ""MightyAardvark""
okay so let's work on the assuption that kids in programs represent an inherently higher risk population than the general public due to the fact that at least some of them are going to have some problems, they're not being set away for being too nice afterall.

Higher risk of what, though? Program claim not to take seriously distressed, violent, or criminal kids; yet we all know they do. They may have been 'at risk' of getting caught with pot or flunking school, etc, but this population shouldn't be 'at risk' for death- homicide or suicide. The later, if policy is followed, wouldn't be an issue because the program would deny admittance of anyone with serious distress.

Let's compare death rates amongst program kids to death rates amongst juvenile offenders. While we are at it why don't we compare recidivism rates and the rates of drug related hospital admission.
submissions anyone?[/quote]

This whole exercise is really moot. We can't compare anything until the industry is forced to report not just deaths, but all injuries, accidents, physical/sexual attacks, recidivism rates, etc.

The one that gets me- post-program suicides written off. I could see that if the kid went to a 30 day outpatient program, then went home and suicided; but 2 years of intense 'treatment' for $100,000, and they still suicide? What's wrong with that picture? How could anyone conlude that this is effective?
Title: Safety in Private sector versus Public
Post by: teachback on February 07, 2007, 08:50:56 AM
Bump..

Why the was this forum at the bottom of the page??
Title: Safety in Private sector versus Public
Post by: MightyAardvark on February 07, 2007, 11:34:59 AM
Quote from: ""Deborah""

Higher risk of what, though? Program claim not to take seriously distressed, violent, or criminal kids; yet we all know they do. They may have been 'at risk' of getting caught with pot or flunking school, etc, but this population shouldn't be 'at risk' for death- homicide or suicide. The later, if policy is followed, wouldn't be an issue because the program would deny admittance of anyone with serious distress.

Let's compare death rates amongst program kids to death rates amongst juvenile offenders. While we are at it why don't we compare recidivism rates and the rates of drug related hospital admission.
submissions anyone?

This whole exercise is really moot. We can't compare anything until the industry is forced to report not just deaths, but all injuries, accidents, physical/sexual attacks, recidivism rates, etc.

The one that gets me- post-program suicides written off. I could see that if the kid went to a 30 day outpatient program, then went home and suicided; but 2 years of intense 'treatment' for $100,000, and they still suicide? What's wrong with that picture? How could anyone conlude that this is effective?


Sorry Debs you are misunderstanding my post. I'm not saying that this is definitely so, merely that for the sake of argument  me can make that assumption for the time being in order to facilitate further examples of how the troubled teen industry doesn't actually work.
The thing is that they lie out of both sides of their faces. I think it's illustrative to let them present the argument in their own terms and then hammer the shit out of them anyway.
Title: Safety in Private sector versus Public
Post by: RobertBruce on February 08, 2007, 06:15:25 PM
So for the 2001-2002 school year we have the following data regarding deaths in the public school/sector versus those in the private theraputic sector:

Out of 52,000,000 kids in the public sector 17 were killed while in school.

Translating to:

1 out of every 3,058,824 kids being murdered while in school

Out of those same 52,000,000 kids in the public sector 5 committed suicide while in school.

Translating to:


1 out of every 10,400,000 kids killing themselves while in public school.

Of those same 52,000,000 2,036 were killed in the public sector.

Translating to:

1 out of every 25540 kids being killed

Of those same 52,000,000 kids 1,772 kids committed suicide.

Translating to

1 out of every 29345 kids in the public sector killing themselves

In the private theraputic sector out of 20,000 kids 2 were murdered by staff members.

Translating to:

1 out of every 10,000 kids being murdered by staff members.

Of those same 20,000 kids in the private theraputic sector 1 committed suicide.

Translating to:

1 out of every 20,000 kids killing themselves.


At least its an improvement over the previous years I guess.  

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/crimeindica ... le_1.1.asp (http://nces.ed.gov/programs/crimeindicators/crimeindicators2005/Indicators.asp?PubPageNumber=1&ShowTablePage=TablesHTML/table_1.1.asp)
Title: Safety in Private sector versus Public
Post by: RobertBruce on February 18, 2007, 01:40:28 PM
bump.