Post by: Anonymous on April 30, 2005, 01:10:00 PM
http://www.realitytvworld.com/index/art ... php?s=3452 (http://www.realitytvworld.com/index/articles/story.php?s=3452)
Sometime in July, ABC will debut its other two summer reality series -- Brat Camp and Welcome To The Neighborhood.
Like Dancing With The Stars, Brat Camp is based on a United Kingdom program of the same name created by Twenty Twenty Productions. Produced stateside by Arnold Shapiro and Allison Grodner (the same folks responsible for the last four editions of CBS's Big Brother, UPN's The Road To Stardom With Missy Elliott, Bravo's Blow Out, etc.), Brat Camp will follow six families that decide to send their troubled teenagers to the Sagewalk Wilderness Therapy Camp, a therapeutic wilderness intervention program located in the high desert country of Central Oregon.
"This show will feel more like a documentary than most reality shows," said Wong told Daily Variety when the network first announced plans for the show back in January. "It won't feel as fabricated."
If the concept sounds familiar to some diehard reality viewers, it should -- the network's ABC Family cable channel aired broadcasts of the original UK Brat Camp series earlier this year.
According to Variety, the nine participants range in ages between 14 and 19, and while they're not delinquents, Grodner stated that "virtually all of them are doing illegal things involving drugs and alcohol."
Despite the fact that ABC describes Sagewalk as a "boot camp-style program" in its press announcement, Grodner had stressed to Variety that the program wasn't an adolescent boot camp. "This is not about yelling or screaming at kids. It's not a military camp," she told the trade paper. "It's about taking kids out of their comfort zone, getting them back to basics and helping them learn how to face their issues."
Post by: Anonymous on April 30, 2005, 01:30:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on May 28, 2005, 08:56:00 AM
ABC TO PREMIERE A NEW REALITY SERIES, ?BRAT CAMP," WEDNESDAY, JULY 13
Released by ABC
What would you do with a teen that curses at you, breaks the law in your house and doesn?t listen to anything you say? That?s the dilemma facing six families with out-of-control teenagers in ABC?s new reality series, ?Brat Camp,? announced today to premiere with a two-hour special broadcast, WEDNESDAY, JULY 13 (8:00-10:00 p.m., ET) on the ABC Television Network. The six families make that tough choice and decide to send their kids to Sagewalk Wilderness Therapy Camp, a boot camp-style program in the wilds of Oregon, in the desperate hope that, once it?s over, they will get back the children they once knew and loved.
::puke::
?Brat Camp? is from Shapiro/Grodner Productions and Twenty Twenty Productions with Arnold Shapiro, Allison Grodner, Peter Casely-Hayford, Jamie Isaacs and Claudia Milne serving as executive producers.
Post by: Nihilanthic on May 28, 2005, 12:17:00 PM
"This is not about yelling or screaming at kids. It's not a military camp," she told the trade paper. "It's about taking kids out of their comfort zone, getting them back to basics and helping them learn how to face their issues."
It is not about breaking them down... oh, it IS about breaking them down. Both states at once... so its quantum bullshit? :lol:
Now, this little gem of a line here makes me laugh:
Quote
The six families make that tough choice and decide to send their kids to Sagewalk Wilderness Therapy Camp, a boot camp-style program in the wilds of Oregon, in the desperate hope that, once it?s over, they will get back the children they once knew and loved.
So, it IS a boot camp? LOL. Aaanyway... why do rational human beings listen to bullshit such as "we desperately hope that once its over, we'll get back the children we once knew and loved."
So, no idea about how it works, no details whatsoever, except it is what it isn't, and it isn't what it is, and these teenagers are going to just MAGICALLY turn back into the kids they once knew? Hallelujah! What a lovely innocent way to say that they want their kid 'broken down' and regressed into a childlike state. Hmm, where have I seen that before?
Oh yeah, psychological regression is brainwashing, and the north koreans pioneered this bullshit, and we've been messing with it in various forms (SEED, Straight, et all) for decades.
To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical.
Thomas Jefferson
Post by: Anonymous on June 04, 2005, 03:51:00 AM
The original "Brat Camp" was an English show featuring SIX familes who sent their kids to a 'bootcamp' in the States...it won some awards in Europe, and had a repeat airing several months ago on the ABC Family Channel (hence the confusion).
The UPCOMING "BRAT CAMP" is produced by Shapiro/Grodner Productions and sends NINE kids to a camp in Oregon called Sagewalk, which, for the record, is NOT a bootcamp...but is indeed an award winning wilderness therapy program, where certified clinical therapists try to help troubled teens deal with the difficult issues of their lives. No one is yelling at these kids or telling them to "drop and give me 20!" No double-speak intended, it just may be that your definition of a "bootcamp" is different than mine.
This new "BRAT CAMP" is a well-made, uplifting and emotional series...and you might want to watch an episode or two before making premature judgements based on incomplete 'research.'
I'm not trying to brainwash you or anything...it's just that you might actually like it! I hope you do anyway. It was a labor of love for all involved. And I'm very proud of this show.
Sincerely,
John Platt
Co-Executive Producer, "Brat Camp" (the new American one...!)
Post by: Anonymous on June 04, 2005, 04:12:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-06-04 00:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Just wanted to point out that it appears you are confusing TWO DIFFERENT TELEVISION SHOWS.
The original "Brat Camp" was an English show featuring SIX familes who sent their kids to a 'bootcamp' in the States...it won some awards in Europe, and had a repeat airing several months ago on the ABC Family Channel (hence the confusion).
The UPCOMING "BRAT CAMP" is produced by Shapiro/Grodner Productions and sends NINE kids to a camp in Oregon called Sagewalk, which, for the record, is NOT a bootcamp...but is indeed an award winning wilderness therapy program, where certified clinical therapists try to help troubled teens deal with the difficult issues of their lives. No one is yelling at these kids or telling them to "drop and give me 20!" No double-speak intended, it just may be that your definition of a "bootcamp" is different than mine.
This new "BRAT CAMP" is a well-made, uplifting and emotional series...and you might want to watch an episode or two before making premature judgements based on incomplete 'research.'
I'm not trying to brainwash you or anything...it's just that you might actually like it! I hope you do anyway. It was a labor of love for all involved. And I'm very proud of this show.
Sincerely,
John Platt
Co-Executive Producer, "Brat Camp" (the new American one...!)"
There is nothing "uplifting" about promoting these programs on TV! There is nothing "uplifting" about knowing that people will be duped into thinking that sending their children to these programs is a good idea-- BECAUSE OF YOUR SHOW!
How can you people live with yourselves? Do you realize how many children died and how many children are being abused at this very moment at various wilderness and residential programs? Promoting such programs in the media is like promoting poison-drinking for sport.
Post by: Anonymous on June 06, 2005, 04:16:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on June 06, 2005, 06:29:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-06-06 13:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You are just plain wrong. Please do some research on Wilderness Therapy, SageWalk and the numerous other wilderness programs before you make statements like the below. :???: "
You are just plain wrong. Please do some research on Aaron Bacon, North Star and the numerous other wilderness deaths before you make statements like the above. SageWalk was happy to employ one of Aaron's killers. :???:
Post by: Antigen on June 06, 2005, 08:25:00 PM
The internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around it.
--John Gilmour
Post by: Anonymous on June 09, 2005, 01:24:00 PM
.....................
We are saddened by some of what we see posted on the ABC Family Channel website message board. We appreciate those who have voiced their support for the cause of helping teens. We are most concerned by the youth who have taken over much of the message board and use it with vulgar comments, disinformation and lack of respect for others.
Post by: Anonymous on June 09, 2005, 04:12:00 PM
Go post some more, vulgar youths!! Happy posting!
Post by: Anonymous on June 09, 2005, 05:10:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-06-09 13:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"http://abcfamily.go.com/bratcamp/home.html
Go post some more, vulgar youths!! Happy posting!"
Unfortunately, the board is censored, not as badly as the original Channel 4 one but it definitely is censored. One person (who I suspect is spirithelps) has had all of her posts deleted.
Actually, the most disheartening thing about the majority of the posts is that it is the teenagers who seem to be least concerned about these places. They seem to be more interested in which of the participants is the most good looking.
Post by: Anonymous on June 17, 2005, 05:04:00 PM
The families and kids and Sagewalk were misled, to varying degrees, by the network and the producers.
I hope the public can see through the transparent hype that this show is in any way altruistic. I am permanently out of the 'reality tv' 'business' now.
I would leave me name, but fear being sued by people with more money and less morals than myself.
Post by: Anonymous on June 17, 2005, 05:33:00 PM
I don't know if I believe that you worked on the show... and if you did Im sorry it left such a bad taste in your mouth.
I worked on the show and thought what was going on there was really different. It wasn't reality show. It was a reality doc. There was minimal producer interferance. The heart of the show was hepling the kids and nothing too horrible happened to them and who knows maybe they even grew up a little..
BTW what was nic-name for the lovely town where our crew stayed...??
Post by: Anonymous on June 17, 2005, 05:47:00 PM
But maybe this will suffice:
Bi-Polar Bears
Phantom Dook
The romance between LBB and MW (passing wind)
Post by: Anonymous on June 17, 2005, 06:31:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on June 19, 2005, 06:30:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-06-17 14:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I worked on the American series, Brat Camp, and I have to say I am very ashamed to have done so.
The families and kids and Sagewalk were misled, to varying degrees, by the network and the producers.
I hope the public can see through the transparent hype that this show is in any way altruistic. I am permanently out of the 'reality tv' 'business' now.
I would leave me name, but fear being sued by people with more money and less morals than myself."
Can you please be more explicit? How were the families and kids misled?
Post by: Anonymous on July 06, 2005, 09:13:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on July 06, 2005, 09:54:00 PM
Boundary, n. In political geography, an imaginary line between two nations, separating the imaginary rights of one from the imaginary rights of another.
-- Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary
Post by: Anonymous on July 06, 2005, 10:36:00 PM
This show smacks of rehabs in the eighties.
Post by: Anonymous on July 07, 2005, 08:16:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-06 18:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I so upset that this new brat camp series is coming to ABC. As a young filmmaker I'm currently working on a documentary about children who were killed in both boot camps and wilderness programs. I've had to read about what happened to Aaron Bacon, Ian August, Tony Haynes, and so on. I know that there are some good outside programs but to allow this show to go on air with out any warning about the dangers that could happen is horrible and it a slap in the face to all the children who paid the ultimate price. They all suffered through such painful, humiliating, deaths, and the families receive little justice. It's just sad, and for the first time I am ashamed to be a part of the entertainment industry."
Well write to the producers, tell them they are smucks. Don't they'll listen or even care. This is about money.
BTW .. will your documentary focus on the sub-cottage industry of independent referral agencies and ed cons?
Talk about shameless! Some of these outfits make upwards of 200k a year in revenue collected from programs who pay FINDER'S FEES.
Selling kids into programs? Only in America.
:smokin:
Post by: Antigen on July 07, 2005, 09:01:00 PM
They know that it is human nature to take up causes whereby a man may oppress his neighbor, no matter how unjustly. ... Hence they have had no trouble in finding men who would preach the damnability and heresy of the new doctrine from the very pulpit.
--Galileo Galilei, Italian astronomer
Post by: Anonymous on July 10, 2005, 06:55:00 PM
Brats for sale: Exploitive `Camp' turns the cameras on troubled teens
By Mark A. Perigard
Sunday, July 10, 2005
Some people shouldn't be parents.
Some people shouldn't play at being counselors.
And one TV network should know better than to televise such exploitive claptrap as ``Brat Camp.''
In this ABC reality series debuting Wednesday at 8 p.m. on WCVB (Ch. 5), nine teenagers are whisked away to SageWalk, a ``therapeutic wilderness camp'' in Oregon.
The kids have been lied to about the nature of the trip and have no idea their parents have signed them away for a minimum of 40 days - and as much as 90 - to work on their issues - all for the benefit of the cameras and millions of viewers across the country.
If adults want to go on ``Extreme Surreal Bachelor Fear Factor,'' that's their business. If they want to risk being made fools of in front of millions of people, they are entitled.
The stars of ``Brat Camp'' are troubled kids, struggling with problems ranging from hyperactivity to drug use to out-of-control rages.
There's Jada, 15, the Boston representative, an unskilled compulsive liar who fails at covering her cocaine habit. At home, her father laments that she spends all her money on drugs.
At this point, I yell at the TV, ``Then stop giving her money.''
SageWalk's simplistic philosophy is to break the kids physically and catch them as their emotional shells crack from the punishment. In the opener, the teenagers are forced to hike several miles while wearing 40-pound backpacks.
By the end of the two-hour premiere, a 17-year-old girl has admitted she was sexually molested when she was 12.
One of the SageWalk counselors proclaims she is ``cool.''
How could anyone at ABC think that televising children's emotional traumas in alleged outdoor therapy sessions would qualify as entertainment? Any facility that would expose its vulnerable charges to the cameras has no business operating. At its best, ``Brat Camp'' is an extended prime-time infomercial targeting desperate parents, such as the depressed mom who complains, ``I feel like there's nobody out there to help us, and I'm tired of doing it all by myself.''
SageWalk's chief operative, Tony Randazzo, narrates the drama. He insists on being called by his ``earth name,'' Glacier Mountain Wolf. The other counselors have equally stupid monikers ranging from Mother Raven to Flying Eagle. Randazzo tells us the kids will have the opportunity to earn their own earth names. Because that is so important, allow me to christen ``Brat Camp'' with its own earth name: Dung Heap.
It's where this show belongs.
Post by: Anonymous on July 10, 2005, 07:15:00 PM
Now the whole world knows so-and-so had drug problems, and this girl was raped. Does anyone care about these kids' futures? They're going to go back into the real world (the REAL real world) and have to go back to "you look familiar" "don't I know you from somewhere?" "Oh I remember, you were the gothic druggie from brat camp that was raped as a kid! Can I have your autograph?"
Post by: Anonymous on July 10, 2005, 08:35:00 PM
As for the camp itself, I'm surprised they actually agreed to the show. Maybe they thought it was more of a documentary...maybe they don't watch a lot of reality tv and didn't realize what they were getting into. Maybe they just wanted the free publicity. Maybe they just have big egos.
It's sad, any way you look at it.
Post by: Antigen on July 10, 2005, 09:40:00 PM
This is nothing new. Just the continued slide of primetime infotainment toward the depths of the soap opera faux reality.
Harmlessly passing your time in the grasslands away;
Only dimly aware of a certain unease in the air.
you better watchout,
there may be dogs about.
I've looked over Jordan, and have seen.
Things are not what they seem.
--Roger Waters 1977
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;
Post by: Anonymous on July 12, 2005, 09:01:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-06 18:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I so upset that this new brat camp series is coming to ABC. As a young filmmaker I'm currently working on a documentary about children who were killed in both boot camps and wilderness programs. I've had to read about what happened to Aaron Bacon, Ian August, Tony Haynes, and so on. I know that there are some good outside programs but to allow this show to go on air with out any warning about the dangers that could happen is horrible and it a slap in the face to all the children who paid the ultimate price. They all suffered through such painful, humiliating, deaths, and the families receive little justice. It's just sad, and for the first time I am ashamed to be a part of the entertainment industry."
Don't forget about Roberto Reyes. Thayer Learning Center in Kidder, Missouri.
Post by: tkhein on July 13, 2005, 09:16:00 AM
These kids kids act out because they feel safe doing so. No one can touch them until they are 18 years old. Then it may be too late. in this case death is not the worst that can happen.
Post by: Anonymous on July 13, 2005, 09:39:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-07-13 06:16:00, tkhein wrote:
"DRASTIC ACTION ARE NEEDED IN DRASTIC TIMES. Some kids, like one of the kids on this show that I know personal, required drastic actions. If he would have died, I would have been sorry. As he was living his life, he would have been dead soon anyway.
These kids kids act out because they feel safe doing so. No one can touch them until they are 18 years old. Then it may be too late. in this case death is not the worst that can happen."
DRASTIC action is needed to inform directionless idiots like you that you just fell for the "deadinsaneorinjail" shit that "program" money-makers shoved down your throat.
You KNEW one of them kids??, how in the fuck do you live with yourself allowing a bunch of chumps to no less EXPLOIT this kid on TV let alone mind-rape him. Maybe we ought to do that to YOU and give you a taste of how the fuck it feels.
Quit acting like you're such a damned authority on young people, you're just a plain idiot who needs DRASTICALLY to be 'outed'.....
Post by: Anonymous on July 13, 2005, 09:48:00 AM
Quote
As he was living his life, he would have been dead soon anyway.
Wow! A fortune teller! How much do you charge per reading? :roll:
Really, how would you know if that kid would be dead? When was he scheduled to die, exactly? All you know is that old bullshit "he'll be dead without the program" line. Which is a lie designed to scare parents into giving their children up and paying someone to lock them up and abuse them.
You are pathetic.
Post by: webcrawler on July 13, 2005, 05:19:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on July 13, 2005, 09:07:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on July 13, 2005, 10:24:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-13 18:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I keep flipping back to this show for some reason. It's like watching a train wreck. I think the main problem that should be addressed is the root cause of these kids' problems. If they're misbehaving, doing drugs, being violent, etc. its probably being caused by outside influences. So they'll "break them down" and brainwash them to be good little citizens who don't question authority, then send them back to emotionally and or physically abusive situations at home, where they will now quietly sit and take the abuse rather than fighting back. "Respect" was a word I've heard several times on this show already. Respect must be earned, not demanded, and anyone who thinks otherwise needs a lesson in respect themselves. Where's the "crappy parents camp" for these kids' families? This one-sided approach to a systemic problem with our society makes me sick."
Spoken like a true BRAT. lol
So, because the world is full of assholes, and so much dysfunction, no one should do anything and let kids do whatever they want, and learn nothing?
I think these kids EARNED their camp, and they can get something out of it that can HELP them. Go ABC!
Post by: webcrawler on July 13, 2005, 10:29:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on July 13, 2005, 11:11:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on July 14, 2005, 02:13:00 AM
Nevertheless, my parents made me go to 'camp' and it was very similar to this, except we were pampered and it was a sleep over camp, so we had tents, did hikes, and did everything for ourselves...
I think parents should also watch this show because they can learn how to speak to their children properly.
I wish I could have watched the whole thing. Or at least see if I could tell one of the little girls was telling the truth about her ?cocaine use?. I find this to be a very enlightening documentary.
Good job!
Any idea if they are going to be repeating it on CBC?
Are there any upcoming projects? Perhaps an update with the kids?
I am an independent filmmaker myself, and seeing this kind of television gives inspiration to getting more down to earth programming for children to grow and learn from.
Enough of this mtv brainwashing hog-wash!
Cheers!
Lisa
Post by: Anonymous on July 14, 2005, 02:59:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-07-13 23:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I just want to say, I watched 3 quarters of the first show (my tape didn't record the whole thing :sad: ) and I have to say I would have gotten a lot out of going to this thing back when I was a child, and my parents would have too.
Nevertheless, my parents made me go to 'camp' and it was very similar to this, except we were pampered and it was a sleep over camp, so we had tents, did hikes, and did everything for ourselves...
I think parents should also watch this show because they can learn how to speak to their children properly.
I wish I could have watched the whole thing. Or at least see if I could tell one of the little girls was telling the truth about her ?cocaine use?. I find this to be a very enlightening documentary.
Good job!
Any idea if they are going to be repeating it on CBC?
Are there any upcoming projects? Perhaps an update with the kids?
I am an independent filmmaker myself, and seeing this kind of television gives inspiration to getting more down to earth programming for children to grow and learn from.
Enough of this mtv brainwashing hog-wash!
Cheers!
Lisa Dyment
"
I suggest you read some more about what's going on in places like Sagewalk when there are no cameras around.
By the way-- having kids sleep in tents outside in heavy snow and low temperatures in not "therapeutic". It's negliegence.
Why should these kids be forced not only to stay at a place where they are obviously not cared for, but to broadcast their personal lives to the entire world in addition?
Just look at the title to realize the way these children are thought of. In the eyes of Sagewalk, ABC, and now people like you who support this shit, these kids are not people who have had some problems and difficulties as a result of their past/relationship with parents/ADD/etc. Hell no. These kids are a bunch of goddamn brats who should be dealt a dose of "tough love", the tougher the better.
Shows like this are not only cruel and disturbing, they also give many more small-brained parents the idea that some program can 'save" their child. Which means more children at risk for abuse and neglect, which is a part of the system and a routine in places like Sagewalk.
Post by: Anonymous on July 14, 2005, 10:38:00 AM
The whole group of kids seemed to have lame, lazy, ineffective parents who couldn't deal with normal adolescent rebellion and teen angst. I felt particularly bad for the girl who was molested by a family friend years prior---it's like she's being punished for it (blame the victim, anyone?).
It is truly disgusting and indicative of our fucked up culture that this is being marketed as "entertainment". Probably the beginning of some social engineering expirament to make this type of shit more palatable to the population at large---"Straight--it's not just for druggies anymore".
Post by: Anonymous on July 14, 2005, 10:48:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-07-13 23:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-07-13 23:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I just want to say, I watched 3 quarters of the first show (my tape didn't record the whole thing :sad: ) and I have to say I would have gotten a lot out of going to this thing back when I was a child, and my parents would have too.
Nevertheless, my parents made me go to 'camp' and it was very similar to this, except we were pampered and it was a sleep over camp, so we had tents, did hikes, and did everything for ourselves...
I think parents should also watch this show because they can learn how to speak to their children properly.
I wish I could have watched the whole thing. Or at least see if I could tell one of the little girls was telling the truth about her ?cocaine use?. I find this to be a very enlightening documentary.
Good job!
Any idea if they are going to be repeating it on CBC?
Are there any upcoming projects? Perhaps an update with the kids?
I am an independent filmmaker myself, and seeing this kind of television gives inspiration to getting more down to earth programming for children to grow and learn from.
Enough of this mtv brainwashing hog-wash!
Cheers!
Lisa Dyment
"
I suggest you read some more about what's going on in places like Sagewalk when there are no cameras around.
By the way-- having kids sleep in tents outside in heavy snow and low temperatures in not "therapeutic". It's negliegence.
Why should these kids be forced not only to stay at a place where they are obviously not cared for, but to broadcast their personal lives to the entire world in addition?
Just look at the title to realize the way these children are thought of. In the eyes of Sagewalk, ABC, and now people like you who support this shit, these kids are not people who have had some problems and difficulties as a result of their past/relationship with parents/ADD/etc. Hell no. These kids are a bunch of goddamn brats who should be dealt a dose of "tough love", the tougher the better.
Shows like this are not only cruel and disturbing, they also give many more small-brained parents the idea that some program can 'save" their child. Which means more children at risk for abuse and neglect, which is a part of the system and a routine in places like Sagewalk."
I agree.
The moralistic undertones of the show made me want to gag.
And how 'bout those field counselors? I wouldn't hike across the street with any of them.
Post by: OverLordd on July 14, 2005, 11:03:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on July 14, 2005, 11:07:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-07-13 18:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I keep flipping back to this show for some reason. It's like watching a train wreck. I think the main problem that should be addressed is the root cause of these kids' problems. If they're misbehaving, doing drugs, being violent, etc. its probably being caused by outside influences. So they'll "break them down" and brainwash them to be good little citizens who don't question authority, then send them back to emotionally and or physically abusive situations at home, where they will now quietly sit and take the abuse rather than fighting back. "Respect" was a word I've heard several times on this show already. Respect must be earned, not demanded, and anyone who thinks otherwise needs a lesson in respect themselves. Where's the "crappy parents camp" for these kids' families? This one-sided approach to a systemic problem with our society makes me sick."
EXACTLY my thoughts. They are trying to force the kids to have no thoughts or emotion, just accept whatever the problem was that led to them acting out. But what about the parents?? They are at LEAST 50% of the problem here, and instead of being encouraged to unload all their negative emotions onto their kids, they should take a good look at their own attitudes. Not to mention that they all lied to the kids to get them there!! Who's the liar? They should say "LIAR" under each parent whenever they talk. Or "SADIST" under each of the "psychologists" as they were called, although only one was, because they just told them they were lied to, waited until they startd crying and then left. What a load of crap! This is far from being a documentary BTW. A freaking infomercial more like it.
Post by: OverLordd on July 14, 2005, 11:20:00 AM
:smile: :grin:
::feels better now::
Post by: Anonymous on July 14, 2005, 12:06:00 PM
Post by: OverLordd on July 14, 2005, 12:09:00 PM
:evil: :evil:
Idiot, you dont have to be gang raped to find out its bad. I dont need to go to your camp to find out its bad either.
Post by: Anonymous on July 14, 2005, 01:00:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-14 09:09:00, OverLordd wrote:
"Oh your absolutely right, I shouldent bad mouth what Hitler did, I have never killed a jew, maybe its fun? Maybe I'll never know...
:evil: :evil:
Idiot, you dont have to be gang raped to find out its bad. I dont need to go to your camp to find out its bad either."
Agreed. :tup:
Post by: Anonymous on July 14, 2005, 01:02:00 PM
"As seen in ABC's BRAT CAMP, these wilderness camps are the hottest thing since eatable underwear..."
Sign up today ... don't delay. These camps are filling up so fast it could be years before we can save your kid's life ... and by that time, they could be an adult ... and then it's too late.
LMAO ... and there lies the irony.
Post by: Anonymous on July 14, 2005, 01:20:00 PM
Quote
These camps are filling up so fast it could be years before we can save your kid's life
Too true. When the first Brat Camp was aired in Britain RedCliff Ascent had a six month waiting list overnight.
Post by: Deborah on July 14, 2005, 02:19:00 PM
53 teens have died (read: been killed) in wilderness/boot camps. That alone would be reason to 'bad mouth' the industry. You may find that an acceptable 'risk'. Many do not. Oregon wilderness programs don't have the best track record.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=10#49931 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=5533&forum=9&start=10#49931)
Sagewalk's record is questionable:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#81232 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=8198&forum=9&start=0#81232)
Yes, Sagewalk employed Aaron Bacon's murderer, Eric Henry during a 9 month diversion agreement following Bacon's death. He was supposed to refrain from involvement in similar programs for pay. He left, when found-out and went on to Obsidian Trails where another death occured.
http://www.contac.org/contaclibrary/tragedy28.htm (http://www.contac.org/contaclibrary/tragedy28.htm)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... art=0#5214 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=874&forum=9&start=0#5214)
Mark Wardle, who was responsible for the death of Ian August at Skyline Journey, was also employed by Sage Walk.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#63079 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=6796&forum=9&start=0#63079)
Wardle also worked at Brown School's 'On Track' where Charles Moody was killed.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... art=0#5214 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=874&forum=9&start=0#5214)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?So ... =9&start=0 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?Sort=&mode=viewtopic&topic=8198&forum=9&start=0)
****
I noticed that staff are extremely 'toned down' in terms of the typical 'bait and punish' MO. On another day, at SW or any other program, in would not be uncommon for Larry (the ticking time bomb) to be harrassed until restraint became 'necessary'. I didn't see that happen last night. Best case, SW 'might' learn that bait and punish is not necessary, if indeed this kid gets anything at all out of the experience.
And the pathetic Impact Letters. Give me a break. That's not 'therapy', it's guilt, shame and manipulation. If I were the kid's counselor I'd advise the kid to reciprocate with their own Impact Letter-
"I wouldn't spend your 'hard earned money' and act as if it grew on trees if you hadn't conditioned me to believe that. You 'spoiled' me. I didn't ask you to. I resent you for sending me to the desert as punishment."
"I'm hyper because I'm BORED as hell. Our family life is boring. School is boring. You never required me to make a contribution, and then punish me for not contributing. I might have benefited from mowing, raking, washing the car, taking out the trash, hiking/biking for pleasure."
A lot of focus on Jada's lying. No focus on the two who taught her well? Isn't it a lie to deny a child accurate information about their relationship with others? To lead him/her to believe that they should receive anything they want with no expectation? These parents obviously got confused- you give love unconditionally, not material possessions.
When do the parents go to boot camp? When do they hear all the reasons their kid is angry, bored, hopeless, scared? This 'therapy' reeks of double standard. The parents can be lame, show no respect but expect it, neglect the kid's real needs, and then pay to have them tortured into compliance- to 'act' with respect.
This is undesirable authoritarian, top down, control; lauded as 'therapy'. The parents should be right there with the teens, sleeping in freezing weather, no hygiene, pathetic food, using a latrine, hiking with packs equal to 1/3 of their body weight, publicly divulging their wrongs. They are equally responsible for their kid's distress and skewed perceptions of reality, if not more so.
Post by: webcrawler on July 14, 2005, 02:54:00 PM
I remember during my 2 year stint in "treatment" I constanlty heard how substance abuse was a family problem. In the 80s there was a big craze about "enablers" and how they contributed to the family member's substance abuse. Why should the families have the luxury of living free in the outside world? I bet most of those parents are "dysfunctional" as well so I say if they truly believe in these places than go ahead and sign your rights away on the dotted line and live just like the child does.
I hope future generations will look back on the acceptance of these shows and places as something that is shameful and to never be repeated.
Post by: Anonymous on July 14, 2005, 02:57:00 PM
Impact letters written by the mothers of Ian August, Michelle Sutton and Aaron Bacon.
You wanna talk "impact"?
Imagine being the parent of a child who comes home in a body bag from a wilderness therapy camp?
SHAME ON ABC for not even having the decency to honor the children who died in the name of therapy.
THESE CHILDREN HAVE NAMES. THEY HAVE FACES. THEY WERE BEAUTIFUL CHILDREN. THEIR PARENTS WERE LIED TO AND PAID THE ULTIMATE PRICE.
http://www.teenadvocatesusa.org/wildernesstherapy.html (http://www.teenadvocatesusa.org/wildernesstherapy.html)
Post by: OverLordd on July 14, 2005, 03:19:00 PM
I posted your post on struggleing teens as a argument against brat camp, thanks for the stuff.
Post by: Anonymous on July 14, 2005, 03:31:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-14 10:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Can't you just hear the ed cons and referral agencies sales pitch right now ...
"As seen in ABC's BRAT CAMP, these wilderness camps are the hottest thing since eatable underwear..."
Sign up today ... don't delay. These camps are filling up so fast it could be years before we can save your kid's life ... and by that time, they could be an adult ... and then it's too late.
LMAO ... and there lies the irony.
"
If you think about it, the teen help industry has done a good job bullshitting parents into believing time is of the essence (in terms of intervening in the life of an at-risk teen) when in reality, what the programs are REALLY worried about is the kid turning 18, the legal age in most states where it would require a COURT ORDER to force an unwilling teen into one of these programs.
It's all about the magic number 18.
Post by: Deborah on July 14, 2005, 03:31:00 PM
Post by: OverLordd on July 14, 2005, 04:26:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on July 14, 2005, 04:50:00 PM
Quote
A lot of focus on Jada's lying. No focus on the two who taught her well? Isn't it a lie to deny a child accurate information about their relationship with others? To lead him/her to believe that they should receive anything they want with no expectation? These parents obviously got confused- you give love unconditionally, not material possessions.
Didn't Jada's parents lie to Jada to get her to go to SW. Even if they didn't, some of the other parents on the show last night lied to their kids about where they were going. Sagewalk and the couselors didn't seem to think twice about that. I sure didn't hear them talk to the parents about their problem with lieing. NO, only Jada's lieing is wrong. What a bunch of crap.
Post by: Antigen on July 14, 2005, 05:20:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-13 23:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
I find this to be a very enlightening documentary.
One born every minute, I suppose.
This is not an enlightening documentary. This is blatant propaganda, advertisement, bullshit! Let me ask you something, when you see an Florida OJ commercial, do you honestly believe that your orange juice was hand squeezed for you by a friendly old farmer? Want to know the reality? Of course you don't! It might make you uncomfortable about purchasing and consuming OJ. And we mustn't have that!!
:roll:
There is no devil and no hell. Thy soul will be dead even sooner than thy body: fear therefore nothing any more.
--Freidrich Nietzsche, German philosopher
Post by: Anonymous on July 14, 2005, 07:23:00 PM
Earth names? Horrible, silly, and undermining any sense of seriousness. "Hey Round Boulder, I just talked to Raven Mother and Wild Cougar and they said etc etc blah blah blah..."
Phantom Dook? What are they, in preschool? Why not say "Some nasty naughty person made an smelly oopsie last night. Bad bad bad!" Does the Pope shit in the woods? Of course, just like how the bear wears a silly hat.
And all those "counselors" look like exactly the type of people that I DON'T want to ever come across in the great outdoors. They all seem a little too programmed and serious, which made them come off as pretty damn creepy. I don't think I saw any of them smile or laugh the entire two hours. Are they not supposed to show emotion? It'd be like camping with a bunch of Vulcans, except I wouldn't expect to wake up in the middle of the night to find Spock or T'pol staring at me all creepy like. We couldn't help but wonder aloud if there was any sort of "fraternization" amongst the slutty teens and the rugged counselors in the privacy of the open desert. Granted, I didn't know anything about kids dying in these sort of survival camp programs, but that only makes it worse.
I may not have all the answers when it comes to dealing with problem children, but this whole Brat Camp thing was very misleading and puts off a very unsettling vibe. Too bad most Americans won't recognize that.
Bottom line, shame on ABC for stooping to FOX tv's depths of shamelessness in the name of ratings. Too bad, so sad.
Post by: Anonymous on July 14, 2005, 07:45:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-06-04 00:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Just wanted to point out that it appears you are confusing TWO DIFFERENT TELEVISION SHOWS.
The original "Brat Camp" was an English show featuring SIX familes who sent their kids to a 'bootcamp' in the States...it won some awards in Europe, and had a repeat airing several months ago on the ABC Family Channel (hence the confusion).
The UPCOMING "BRAT CAMP" is produced by Shapiro/Grodner Productions and sends NINE kids to a camp in Oregon called Sagewalk, which, for the record, is NOT a bootcamp...but is indeed an award winning wilderness therapy program, where certified clinical therapists try to help troubled teens deal with the difficult issues of their lives. No one is yelling at these kids or telling them to "drop and give me 20!" No double-speak intended, it just may be that your definition of a "bootcamp" is different than mine.
This new "BRAT CAMP" is a well-made, uplifting and emotional series...and you might want to watch an episode or two before making premature judgements based on incomplete 'research.'
I'm not trying to brainwash you or anything...it's just that you might actually like it! I hope you do anyway. It was a labor of love for all involved. And I'm very proud of this show.
Sincerely,
John Platt
Co-Executive Producer, "Brat Camp" (the new American one...!)"
Hi John,
The majority of posters on this site are HELL BENT against ANY kind of treatment programs for teens, because they are ALL abusive, torturous, money hungry places (lol). SO, don't expect to have to many intelligent replies to your posts. Most of the posters either never finished/completed the program they were in, or they backslid afterwards and want to blame ALL the wrongs in their lives on the program they were in as a teen (which they HAD to do SOMETHING to get to a point where their parents went to these lengths to help them). Sad, but true.
Brat Camp was very interesting to watch, and I think these kids CAN get a LOT out of their experince there, that can help them to deal with life constructively as opposed to lying, drugging and being nasty and violent.
Post by: Anonymous on July 14, 2005, 07:58:00 PM
Camping, working, walking daily is NOT abuse. Get off your high horses.
Maybe they should send all these kids to you since YOU are the experts. That would open your eyes.
It's not punishment. It's good old fashioned WORK and focus. ALL can benefit from that. Maybe you all should try it now. Bet it would change your perspectives (and you need it).
Post by: webcrawler on July 14, 2005, 08:28:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-14 16:58:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
There are a LOT more ungrateful, disrespectful, greedy and unresponsible kids out there who could USE a good couple months of no "recreation", and material things to get their attitudes in CHECK.
Camping, working, walking daily is NOT abuse. Get off your high horses.
Maybe they should send all these kids to you since YOU are the experts. That would open your eyes.
It's not punishment. It's good old fashioned WORK and focus. ALL can benefit from that. Maybe you all should try it now. Bet it would change your perspectives (and you need it)."
Gee, you first. I've already done that and you are so right! My perspective has changed! I have seen the light! These places are abusive.
Post by: Deborah on July 14, 2005, 08:52:00 PM
Let's take the deprivation diet: Yeh, yeh, I got the point- the objective was to create enough deprivation around food that they would appreciate such a basic thing. But, they do not have to serve unseasoned oats, rice, couscous, beans, and lentils. I was a vegetarian for a number of years and I can tell you that these foods are as bland as can be without seasoning. I love them, but wouldn't tolerate them unseasoned. That little torture is unnecessary and potentially detrimental. They could serve them simple vegetarian fare that actually tasted good. AND wasn't burned. Why not make the goal to have the kids come out enjoying nutritious food?
Anyone else notice the scene where the kid was FORCED (key) to eat his burned, bland, oatmeal mush? The narrorator (or staff) clarified to the viewers that the kids HAVE to have 'a certain number of calories' per day. Bull squat. That was a lame justification/excuse for 'forcing' the kid to eat it. State regulations require that the USDA requirements be provided, BUT prohibits providers from forcing a child to eat anything. To force a kid to eat unpleasant food until they puke is abuse, compounded by making him dig a 'new hole' if he puked.
I think 1800 calories was mentioned as some point in the program? USDA recommends 2800 with 'normal' exertion. For the exertion they were enduring it would likely be near 3,000, and lots of variety.
As for the 'Earth Names'. Programs like SW, Vision Quest, Distant Drums, have all highjacked and are capitalizing on the romanticism of Native Sprituality. I'm sure some parents fanticize that their kid is going off to have a bonefide vision quest, some spiritual epiphany. These folks don't know the first thing about vision quest. There is nothing about these programs that vaguely resembles vision quest.
More about that in my post on Brat Camp at Sociopranos:
http://www.sociopranos.com/forums/threa ... &start=301 (http://www.sociopranos.com/forums/thread-view.asp?threadid=225&start=301)
And what a contradiction. It wasn't that long ago that the prevailing attitude was, 'the only good Indian is a dead Indian'. Now middle class white people are sending their kids to wilderness torture camps with NA themes.
I'm sure the owner(s) is christian or mormon. Why not slap a christian name on the business and let the staff pick biblical names? The owner's biblical name could be Ceasar. They could do burnt offerings- perhaps that's what the oatmeal mush was? They could sacrifice kids on the alter who didn't come into compliance. Or ban them from the group without food/water until they repented. What they are doing is a disgrace and very disrespectful to native spirituality.
In the case of Ian August, Wardle played on the the mother's new agey woo-woo belief system. Played this game with Ian, who was sure that he'd known Wardle in a past life. Give me a damn break. And when they killed him by walking him to death, his mother wrote it off as Ian's 'karma' and felt sorry for what the Wardle's were going through because they had been so 'supportive' of her having to deal with this unruly child. ::puke:: ::puke:: His death was clearly due to neglect.
To address the age of majority issue. I don't know about other states, but in Tx a teen 14 or older can refuse any form of psych/drug rehab treatment. They can walk out the door, without a court order. Why do you think parents are shipping their kids to the desert, thousands of miles from home?
Post by: Deborah on July 14, 2005, 09:34:00 PM
You, like this documercial are attempting to shape the perception of your audience.
These kids are not 'camping, working, and walking'. They are living in austere elements for 60-90 days doing mindless 'work' and being force marched on limited calories, and worst of all being publicly exploited by sadistic capitalists.
I suggest you enroll yourself for a little sensitivity training.
It's a simple and sadistic mind that believes this is the way to 'help' anyone, much less a developing teen.
No doubt, some will give the appearence of having a radical transformation. Three months in hell can have that affect. Some will learn to 'act' well.
Post by: Anonymous on July 14, 2005, 09:52:00 PM
Post by: Deborah on July 14, 2005, 11:51:00 PM
Regs state that packs: shall not exceed 20 percent of the consumer's body weight. If the consumer is required to carry other items, the total of all weight carried shall not exceed 30% of the consumer's body weight.
Regs require 6 quarts [of water] per day. How long were the hikes? How many quarts did your son carry in his pack, along with the rocks and other supplies? Did he receive electrolyte replacement? Did your son receive 3,000 calorie per day? And an additional 30-100% more calories when hiking and in cold weather? Did he take a multiple vitamin daily?
***
These are Utah regulations. Since SW isn't licensed in Oregon, whose guidelines are they following? One of the Industry Associations? Their comments re: the weight of packs and calorie requirements were deceptive, giving the audience the impression that they were monitored and following state regulations.
And about those packs- it was stated in the beginning of the program that the packs weighed 40#, then later one of the kids claimed that they had told her 33 or 35#.
Post by: Antigen on July 15, 2005, 01:00:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-07-14 16:23:00, Anonymous wrote:
I may not have all the answers when it comes to dealing with problem children, but this whole Brat Camp thing was very misleading and puts off a very unsettling vibe. Too bad most Americans won't recognize that.
Thank you :nworthy:
You've got the most important answers, I think.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark. The real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.
--Plato
Post by: Anonymous on July 15, 2005, 07:08:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-14 16:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-06-04 00:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Just wanted to point out that it appears you are confusing TWO DIFFERENT TELEVISION SHOWS.
The original "Brat Camp" was an English show featuring SIX familes who sent their kids to a 'bootcamp' in the States...it won some awards in Europe, and had a repeat airing several months ago on the ABC Family Channel (hence the confusion).
The UPCOMING "BRAT CAMP" is produced by Shapiro/Grodner Productions and sends NINE kids to a camp in Oregon called Sagewalk, which, for the record, is NOT a bootcamp...but is indeed an award winning wilderness therapy program, where certified clinical therapists try to help troubled teens deal with the difficult issues of their lives. No one is yelling at these kids or telling them to "drop and give me 20!" No double-speak intended, it just may be that your definition of a "bootcamp" is different than mine.
This new "BRAT CAMP" is a well-made, uplifting and emotional series...and you might want to watch an episode or two before making premature judgements based on incomplete 'research.'
I'm not trying to brainwash you or anything...it's just that you might actually like it! I hope you do anyway. It was a labor of love for all involved. And I'm very proud of this show.
Sincerely,
John Platt
Co-Executive Producer, "Brat Camp" (the new American one...!)"
Hi John,
The majority of posters on this site are HELL BENT against ANY kind of treatment programs for teens, because they are ALL abusive, torturous, money hungry places (lol). SO, don't expect to have to many intelligent replies to your posts. Most of the posters either never finished/completed the program they were in, or they backslid afterwards and want to blame ALL the wrongs in their lives on the program they were in as a teen (which they HAD to do SOMETHING to get to a point where their parents went to these lengths to help them). Sad, but true.
Brat Camp was very interesting to watch, and I think these kids CAN get a LOT out of their experince there, that can help them to deal with life constructively as opposed to lying, drugging and being nasty and violent.
"
How much do you want to bet that this is that John guy responding to himself? LOL!
Post by: Anonymous on July 15, 2005, 07:45:00 PM
Post by: alaskaboy on July 17, 2005, 03:47:00 AM
I thought that I should let you know that I went to Sage Walk almost two years ago and it is not what you think. When I was there I actually mentioned making a T.V show of the place to two of the staff, only to show the world what a messed up camp it really is. You cannot expect to make a "stepford" teenager and not have them suffer later on. I was clean of drugs before i left to Sagewalk and am clean now, however i have had extremely hard times getting over what happened in the Oregon high desert. I currently am in the Army National Gaurd and I have one semester of highschool to finish and then off to college. The semester of highschool that I have to finish is because of the classes that I failed when I was kidnapped off to SW. Sagewalk made me not appreciate the outdoors as much also, and about my family when i returned I realized that my mom has some deep problems in the head and I got the heck out of her house. I love and respect her for giving birth to me and feeding, clothing me, but that is it. Not to mention the physical problems that Sagewalk left me with.. bad knees, back problems, etc. I had severe emotional problems from the place. I am currently working with Lawyers to assemble my case and there will be a not so pretty lawsuite very soon. I am not alone in this. Those kids need to run away, I wish I had. Loren[ This Message was edited by: alaskaboy on 2005-07-17 00:48 ][ This Message was edited by: alaskaboy on 2005-07-17 00:52 ]
Post by: alaskaboy on July 17, 2005, 03:50:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-07-15 16:08:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-07-14 16:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-06-04 00:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Just wanted to point out that it appears you are confusing TWO DIFFERENT TELEVISION SHOWS.
The original "Brat Camp" was an English show featuring SIX familes who sent their kids to a 'bootcamp' in the States...it won some awards in Europe, and had a repeat airing several months ago on the ABC Family Channel (hence the confusion).
The UPCOMING "BRAT CAMP" is produced by Shapiro/Grodner Productions and sends NINE kids to a camp in Oregon called Sagewalk, which, for the record, is NOT a bootcamp...but is indeed an award winning wilderness therapy program, where certified clinical therapists try to help troubled teens deal with the difficult issues of their lives. No one is yelling at these kids or telling them to "drop and give me 20!" No double-speak intended, it just may be that your definition of a "bootcamp" is different than mine.
This new "BRAT CAMP" is a well-made, uplifting and emotional series...and you might want to watch an episode or two before making premature judgements based on incomplete 'research.'
I'm not trying to brainwash you or anything...it's just that you might actually like it! I hope you do anyway. It was a labor of love for all involved. And I'm very proud of this show.
Sincerely,
John Platt
Co-Executive Producer, "Brat Camp" (the new American one...!)"
Hi John,
The majority of posters on this site are HELL BENT against ANY kind of treatment programs for teens, because they are ALL abusive, torturous, money hungry places (lol). SO, don't expect to have to many intelligent replies to your posts. Most of the posters either never finished/completed the program they were in, or they backslid afterwards and want to blame ALL the wrongs in their lives on the program they were in as a teen (which they HAD to do SOMETHING to get to a point where their parents went to these lengths to help them). Sad, but true.
Brat Camp was very interesting to watch, and I think these kids CAN get a LOT out of their experince there, that can help them to deal with life constructively as opposed to lying, drugging and being nasty and violent.
"
How much do you want to bet that this is that John guy responding to himself? LOL!"
Post by: hurleygurley on July 17, 2005, 02:33:00 PM
What is disturbing about the shows that shine a positive light on a deserving program is that they may ignore the fact that these are huge exceptions and soooooo far from the rules - the horrendour reality of the other "boot camps."
I felt this way reading Dave Marcus' book but in his he pointed out some good points about the program without looking under any rocks. I know ASR has big problems but it may be one of the "easier" of the programs, being in NY and god knows how Marcus got in but certainly the group and counselors he worked with had to have been carefully chosen. I've been in contact with him to point out the huge problems his book raises even though there are pieces of the book that are excellent and report interventions by therapists that would be useful. But he seemed unaware of the civil liberties issues, and the whole world of the sick industry. I believe he is not a malicious person but don't know what price he paid the devil to do the book. I am in the process of establishing rapport with him and hoping to fully inform him, as he is a Pulitzer Prize winning investigative journalist, seems to care about kids and seems like a good guy. He also takes a good stab at Aspen towars the end mentioning how the ed. cons. are treated like royalty in limos etc...
I am working HARD on getting SF Bay Area series coverage with a good connection I have who understands and is a very compassionate man. He's been waiting for the "right" reporter to free herself up to take the tremendous amount of time to do a series (even though I said I could practically right it myself, refs and all and hand it to her to check and edit!).
Now that I've lost my personal battle for the girl in Aspen's Youth Care/Pinridge RTC in Utah. (If you're interested in details send me a pm.) I am all guns ready to take this on a broader scale.
BTW, the damage was done to my young friend, all of what was suspected was true except that the education she got there was not too bad.
Post by: Anonymous on July 17, 2005, 06:10:00 PM
Quote
What is disturbing about the shows that shine a positive light on a deserving program is that they may ignore the fact that these are huge exceptions and soooooo far from the rules - the horrendour reality of the other "boot camps."
Neither of the British shows featured deserving programs. Just read the posts in this forum about RedCliff Ascent. And Turn-About Ranch is on ISAC's watch list.
Post by: Anonymous on July 18, 2005, 07:53:00 PM
Post by: Deborah on July 18, 2005, 08:31:00 PM
For starters, parents could begin to take responsibility for the relationship they have created with their kid and at least one parent can enroll and go through the program too.
Your assumption is wrong. Many of the parents here, myself included, have dealt with our own distressed teens. And in my case, my son's distress was due to having spent 6 months in an abusive program that resulted in a lawsuit.
The only whiners are the genuinely ignorant and helpless parents who see themselves as victims of their children. Sign them up. I'm sure they'll see the light when they are tortured to a breaking point. If it's good for the kid, it has to be good for the parent.
Post by: Antigen on July 18, 2005, 09:11:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-18 16:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
What would you suggest parents do?
I suggest that if you think this sort of treatment will benefit your kid, then you administer it yourself. If not, find a better way. But paying strangers to rough up your kids for you is just sickening!
Truth does not have to be accepted on faith. Scientists do not hold hands every Sunday, singing, "Yes gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! Amen.
--Dan Barker, former evangelist and author
Post by: Anonymous on July 18, 2005, 09:22:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-18 16:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
"They're on the road to death, breaking the law, or killing someone themselves."
This is a typical argument of a program supporter. I cringe everytime I read this, because it couldn't be further from the truth. Sure, you might believe it, but it's not true for 99% of the kids sent to these programs. Oh, but I know, your kid is different, they surely would have killed themselves, right? When tens of millions of other teens do fine without programs, dealing with the same issues.
Let's look at your quote again:
Quote
On 2005-07-18 16:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
"They're on the road to death, breaking the law, or killing someone themselves."
These are the kids there
Lauren 17, Davis, CA
Jada 15, Boston, MA
Nick 14, Seattle, WA
Shawn 17, Irvine, CA
Heather 16, Centreville, VA
Lexie 17, St. Helena, CA
Frank 15, Sacramento, CA
Derek 14, Little Rock, AR
Isaiah 17, Winton, CA
The Reason the kids are there:
Lauren was a straight "A" student who excelled in everything, until her father suddenly passed away when she was 11. Unable to deal with the grief, Lauren turned to drugs and admits to smoking pot every day and doing whatever it takes to get her fix. Lauren's mother sent her to SageWalk hoping that her daughter would face up to her father's death and quit drugs.
---
Jada refuses to go to school. She has dropped out of two boarding schools and nine private schools in the last six years. Instead of going to school, she throws parties and experiments with sex, drugs and alcohol. Jada's an aspiring singer who thinks she doesn't need school because she's going to be a star one day. She's also a compulsive liar who is always making excuses. Her parents sent her to SageWalk so that she'll become motivated about her life, stop taking things for granted and start telling the truth.
-----
Nick is a dyslexic teenager who is constantly fighting with his family. Not only does he disrespect his father and yell obscenities at his mother, he once even pulled a knife on his twin brother. Unable to deal with Nick's relentless anger issues any longer, his parents made the decision to send him to SageWalk.
-----
Shawn has been struggling with drug abuse for several years. He admits to stealing from his own mother and is constantly truant from school. Shawn's parents believe his problems stem from the fact that he was adopted, and they sent him to SageWalk hoping that he'll learn to face his abandonment issues and gain self-esteem.
-----
Heather used to be athletic and innocent until she started hanging out with the wrong crowd. Now she experiments with all types of drugs and is constantly running away from home for days at a time. Her adoptive parents sent her to SageWalk because they feel that Heather is heading down the same road as her birth mother - to a drug-induced coma.
-----
Lexie used to be a good girl who rode horses and excelled in school, but when she was 11, Lexie was molested by someone she trusted. She has since suffered from depression, become verbally abusive toward her parents, given up horseback riding and started failing in school. Lexie's parents sent her to SageWalk hoping she'll learn to deal with the secret that still haunts her.
-----
Frank has anger management issues and problems with authority. He was recently suspended from school for arguing with a teacher and was sent to live with his uncle, a probation officer. Frank admits to being verbally abusive and furious at the world, and was sent to SageWalk to learn how to deal with his anger.
-----
Derek is a destructive teenager who has been diagnosed with Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. He is failing school and is verbally abusive towards his mother. Derek's parents have sent him to SageWalk to learn discipline, respect and self-control.
----
Isaiah is an angry punk rocker who smokes, drinks and has an obsession with fire. Isaiah is verbally abusive towards his mother and blames her for his parents' divorce. He's defiant and bitter, and is constantly getting into fist fights at school, especially with the 'jocks.' Isaiah's mother sent him to SageWalk to learn how to deal with his anger issues.
-----
Yeah.. they're some real hell-raisers, eh? :wave:
Post by: Anonymous on July 18, 2005, 09:23:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on July 18, 2005, 10:41:00 PM
http://www.teenadvocatesusa.org/Remembe ... utton.html (http://www.teenadvocatesusa.org/RememberingMichelleSutton.html)
Or died after falling into a deep crevice while on an under-supervised hike in an area no longer considered safe and/or appropriate for wilderness therapy? (Red Rock Ranch Academy)
Or killed while sleeping in their tent after a tree branch covered with snow gave way fell on them? (Catherine Freer)
Wilderness Therapy is NOT foolproof. There are inherent risks which can not and must not be overlooked and/or ignored.
That's the bottom line. Caveat Emptor.
Barbe
TAUSA
Post by: Nihilanthic on July 19, 2005, 12:41:00 AM
Quote
-----
Lexie used to be a good girl who rode horses and excelled in school, but when she was 11, Lexie was molested by someone she trusted. She has since suffered from depression, become verbally abusive toward her parents, given up horseback riding and started failing in school. Lexie's parents sent her to SageWalk hoping she'll learn to deal with the secret that still haunts her.
-----
Frank has anger management issues and problems with authority. He was recently suspended from school for arguing with a teacher and was sent to live with his uncle, a probation officer. Frank admits to being verbally abusive and furious at the world, and was sent to SageWalk to learn how to deal with his anger.
-----
Derek is a destructive teenager who has been diagnosed with Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. He is failing school and is verbally abusive towards his mother. Derek's parents have sent him to SageWalk to learn discipline, respect and self-control.
How the fuck is marching in the desert and eating burnt oatmeal going to fix or address any of this?
Jesus Christ people are morons if they think this is going to do anything except make them tow the line so they dont go back, or just get teh fuck away from their parents - if they're not referred to a lockin program.
The three of them have nothing wrong with them at all, and their parents have a LOT wrong with them for doing this to their kids. But oh well, theyre gonna get pats on the back and tons of money for letting their kids be humiliated, marched through a desert and given bullshit 'therapy' around campfires while eating burnt oatmeal.
:roll:
Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die
-- Malachy McCourt
Post by: webcrawler on July 19, 2005, 12:46:00 AM
To humiliate their children on national television to entertain viewers is sickening to say the least.
Post by: Anonymous on July 19, 2005, 11:46:00 AM
Post by: OverLordd on July 19, 2005, 12:10:00 PM
I am also a Eagle Scout, I also graduated high school with highest honors, and I also am a member of the national honor socity. I would like to hear the good things these kids have done, because im sure there is alot of that!
Post by: Anonymous on July 19, 2005, 12:31:00 PM
The point you raise is a valid one, Overlordd: when is a child's behavior extreme enough to warrant the extraordinary step of sending him or her to a specialized program? I go on record here and now as saying that I think sometimes, hopefully rarely, this is a necessary step.
You say that you argue with your parents: that's a little different than in the previous anon's post which refers to kids to repeatedly threaten to hit their parents.
And I don't know your age, though if you are out of school I've got to assume you're of age.
If you were a minor, then if your parents could be called "good enough" that is, reasonably competent parents, they'd get to make the call about where you were sent, most likely after consulting with people they trusted-- which may include clergy, family, psychologists, etc. (If you're an adult and were threatening to hit your parents, well, I guess, regretfully, that's where police/lawyers get called into a family situation).
You're "obsessed" with fire? I have to ask: do you really mean "obsessed" or just very fascinated as I, for example, am fascinated with the ocean. Because if you're "obsessed" in the sense of heading toward arson, well, I hope you get some kind of guidance, whatever your age.
If my minor child was "obsessed" with fire )in the true sense of the word) I sure would seek out some kind of program to address this, however many "good things" were also included in his/her personality.
Post by: Antigen on July 19, 2005, 12:53:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-19 09:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
The point you raise is a valid one, Overlordd: when is a child's behavior extreme enough to warrant the extraordinary step of sending him or her to a specialized program? I go on record here and now as saying that I think sometimes, hopefully rarely, this is a necessary step.
I think it depends on how you define the term "specialized program". In the case of the troubled parent industry, you may as well ask when is an illness extreme enough to warrant a round of blood letting? Or trepanation?
If we're talking about confrontational TC or toughlove death marches, the answer is, obviously, never. No matter how serious the kids' behavior, this approach is not helpful. You may just as well shove the kid over a cliff and leave them to fend for themselves if you want to shoot for strength through adversity. All the trappings of newage therapy are only provided to help you, the parent, believe that what you're doing is somehow different from beating the shit out of the kid repeatedly yourself.
Never in the history of any nation has an education system been so on the point of disintegration and decay as the education system in this country...We know that education in this country is as bad as it can be. We know that it is old-fashioned, irrelevant, and not meaningful.
--U.S. Senator Abraham A. Ribicoff, 1970
Post by: Anonymous on July 19, 2005, 03:38:00 PM
So said Antigen in the previous post.
Well, of course, we can all agree--- I think--that it depends on the program, and I personally believe that there are good and bad ones out there.
The problem is, in the minds of certain critics of therapeutic schools, the possibility of a helpful and good program can't even be conceptualized, it appears.
Antigen, I see from your posts that you had a very traumatic experience yourself with incarceration in a program. Please be open-minded enough to realize that this is your experience in a particular setting. Other places and other people's stories can be and I believe, are very very different.
As a parent, I understand your concern that the power of even the most caring staff in a remote or lock-up situation is great and can be misused. As a critical thinker---after reading your posts I have the impression of someone who is so wounded that it may just be too much to expect an impartial evaluation of any program that in any way resembles her own unhappy experience.
How much, I wonder of what we see at this site has to do with people virtaully blinded by grief or anger over a personal tragic experience or outcome?
I think that this site does provide valuable information and leads to parents. But because of the particular life stories of many of the posters I think that just about everything presented here needs to be checked and rechecked elsewhere for distortions and (perhaps understandable given posters' backgrounds) misrepresentations.
This site is useful I think but cannot be considered a complete or always reliable story in choosing a therapeutic program
Post by: obsidian student on July 19, 2005, 04:57:00 PM
Post by: Nihilanthic on July 19, 2005, 05:21:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-19 08:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Actually, I believe they are hell raisers. They're out of control. If you can't see that then I think you're not being realistic. I do believe that many kids can receive help in other ways. Doc's, other programs, therepy, etc. However, when your kid threatens to hit you on numerous occasions, stays out all night whenever they want, and brags about getting fuc*** up, then these are serious problems. You can't believe that untreated they'll all be dead or in jail within 5 years. Even if the camp didn't help them in the long run with they're problems, what they're getting is the least punishment for what they've done to those that love them. That's what they get. If someone wouldn't kick the sh#t out of them, then let them hike. There should be consequences for their actions shouldn't there be?"
Quote
Lexie used to be a good girl who rode horses and excelled in school, but when she was 11, Lexie was molested by someone she trusted. She has since suffered from depression, become verbally abusive toward her parents, given up horseback riding and started failing in school. Lexie's parents sent her to SageWalk hoping she'll learn to deal with the secret that still haunts her.
Am I the only one who thinks youre a fucking moron here? BTW, punishment itself is pointless. It doesnt fix any problems if they actually have any, and causes more resentment than it discourages further behavior problems.
But hey, if you wanna be trapped in the dark ages and put punishment before therapy and call an abused child a 'hellraiser', whatever, youre free to be a moron in the US of A!
P.S. THEYRE BEING TEENAGERS YOU FLIPPIN IDIOT. Before all this shit started up in the 1970s, parents had to learn to DEAL WITH IT. Why cant you? Theyre going to act the way theyre going to act. Punishment doesnt do anything but make them resent you. And how the fuck do you know they'll be "Dead or in jail in 5 years", Nostradumbass?
The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble by us, and I for one must be content to remain an agnostic.
--Charles Robert Darwin, English naturalist
Post by: Anonymous on July 19, 2005, 07:16:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on July 19, 2005, 07:31:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on July 19, 2005, 07:52:00 PM
I am not the same anon to which this mental giant is directing his analysis--- but sadly, I imagine that there are other posters who probably agree with him in sayinf that this poster is "a fucking moron".
I don't.
In fact, I don't think that the anon's interpretation is off base at all, although I don't know the merits of the particular program featured on the television program.
But to argue that it's just being a teenager to threaten your parents, to disrespect your own body by random sexual encounters, to disappear overnight as a minor, well, no, maybe that is Nililanthic's idea of a normal adolescence but it is not mine.
I am a whole lot more comfortable thinking that the average parent who faces this kind of self-destructive behavior will be able to decide whether or not the child involved needs to be in a setting away from home than I am in thinking that a poster like Nihilanthic can assure the family of the right approach.
Especially after hearing his interpretation of what it means to be a normal adolescent.
Post by: Anonymous on July 19, 2005, 07:57:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on July 19, 2005, 08:12:00 PM
No, my friend, life doesn't work out so simply as that.
I am perfectly willing to believe that you had a bad time of it, don't presume that this means you get to define all programs or the experience of all kids.
Post by: Antigen on July 19, 2005, 08:12:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-19 12:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
Antigen, I see from your posts that you had a very traumatic experience yourself with incarceration in a program. Please be open-minded enough to realize that this is your experience in a particular setting. Other places and other people's stories can be and I believe, are very very different.
Here are some of the circumstances that made my experience traumatic:
First and foremost, betrayal by my parents. They lied to me, repeatedly, to get me into the program and to a cop to try to have me returned to the program.
They told the parents to disregard any complaints as manipulative lies, then proceeded to do all the things they told them we'd lie about.
They kept us isolated from the outside world; no breaks from the constant stress, no reality checks.
They used every kind of humiliation and emotional abuse imaginable in order to break kids down, turn them against each other and, ultimately, turn them from inmates to guards.
These are just some of the things I keep hearing these kids complain about today. Show me a program that doesn't do those things.
It is one of the most beautiful compensations of life, that no man can sincerely try to help another without helping himself.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
Post by: Anonymous on July 19, 2005, 08:18:00 PM
Troubled parents, not teens, are what drives this industry.
:flame:
Post by: Anonymous on July 19, 2005, 08:23:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-19 17:12:00, Antigen wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-07-19 12:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
Antigen, I see from your posts that you had a very traumatic experience yourself with incarceration in a program. Please be open-minded enough to realize that this is your experience in a particular setting. Other places and other people's stories can be and I believe, are very very different.
Here are some of the circumstances that made my experience traumatic:
First and foremost, betrayal by my parents. They lied to me, repeatedly, to get me into the program and to a cop to try to have me returned to the program.
They told the parents to disregard any complaints as manipulative lies, then proceeded to do all the things they told them we'd lie about.
They kept us isolated from the outside world; no breaks from the constant stress, no reality checks.
They used every kind of humiliation and emotional abuse imaginable in order to break kids down, turn them against each other and, ultimately, turn them from inmates to guards.
These are just some of the things I keep hearing these kids complain about today. Show me a program that doesn't do those things.It is one of the most beautiful compensations of life, that no man can sincerely try to help another without helping himself.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
"
Yep, nothing has changed. Teens guarding other teens in exchange for more favorable treatment from THE PROGRAM.
Pretty god-awful way to grow up.
Post by: Anonymous on July 19, 2005, 08:23:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-19 17:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"And your experience is everybody's else's, right?
No, my friend, life doesn't work out so simply as that.
I am perfectly willing to believe that you had a bad time of it, don't presume that this means you get to define all programs or the experience of all kids. "
I was asking what your interests are in the program? Why are you here?
Post by: Anonymous on July 19, 2005, 08:27:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-19 17:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"And your experience is everybody's else's, right?
No, my friend, life doesn't work out so simply as that.
I am perfectly willing to believe that you had a bad time of it, don't presume that this means you get to define all programs or the experience of all kids. "
How about these children's experiences?
Post URL: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =37#116881 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=10575&forum=37#116881)
too bad they can't sit around a forum defending themselves. they are dead. :flame:
Post by: Anonymous on July 19, 2005, 08:56:00 PM
Second, these aren't BRAT CAMPS. They are ATM MACHINES. CASH COWS. EVERYBODY IS GETTING RICH OFF THE HEADS OF THESE KIDS.
:flame:
Post by: Anonymous on July 19, 2005, 09:37:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-19 17:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"What is the matter with parents today? Are they that desperate to get back in control of their child's attitude and behavior that they would allow them to be exploited by a bunch of airheads I wouldn't trust to guide me across the street?
"
Yes.
Post by: The Liger on July 19, 2005, 10:27:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on July 19, 2005, 11:07:00 PM
Post by: OverLordd on July 20, 2005, 08:38:00 AM
Quote
I'm a different anon than the previous one.
The point you raise is a valid one, Overlordd: when is a child's behavior extreme enough to warrant the extraordinary step of sending him or her to a specialized program? I go on record here and now as saying that I think sometimes, hopefully rarely, this is a necessary step.
You say that you argue with your parents: that's a little different than in the previous anon's post which refers to kids to repeatedly threaten to hit their parents.
And I don't know your age, though if you are out of school I've got to assume you're of age.
If you were a minor, then if your parents could be called "good enough" that is, reasonably competent parents, they'd get to make the call about where you were sent, most likely after consulting with people they trusted-- which may include clergy, family, psychologists, etc. (If you're an adult and were threatening to hit your parents, well, I guess, regretfully, that's where police/lawyers get called into a family situation).
You're "obsessed" with fire? I have to ask: do you really mean "obsessed" or just very fascinated as I, for example, am fascinated with the ocean. Because if you're "obsessed" in the sense of heading toward arson, well, I hope you get some kind of guidance, whatever your age.
If my minor child was "obsessed" with fire )in the true sense of the word) I sure would seek out some kind of program to address this, however many "good things" were also included in his/her personality.
To begin with if a teen has issues and parents "make the call" That generally means jack shit in the long run. People like to say that their parents did research, that parents visited the places, that parents worked hard to find just the righ prision to stick you in, but the fact of the matter is that hey have no clue what goes on there, no matter what. You wanna know why? Because they can't know what goes on there when no one is around and they are miles into rough terrain.
Second, Yes. I like fire, I'm a boy scout, you do not go through scouting without developing a healthly enjoyment for fire and fire related activites.
Post by: OverLordd on July 20, 2005, 08:44:00 AM
Quote
As a parent, I understand your concern that the power of even the most caring staff in a remote or lock-up situation is great and can be misused. As a critical thinker---after reading your posts I have the impression of someone who is so wounded that it may just be too much to expect an impartial evaluation of any program that in any way resembles her own unhappy experience.
Wait, you have a kid in one of these things, or you work of them, or you would not be here. You have a vested intrest in these places and you say she is to hurt to make a impartial evaluation? Get the log out of your own eye punk.
Quote
But to argue that it's just being a teenager to threaten your parents, to disrespect your own body by random sexual encounters, to disappear overnight as a minor, well, no, maybe that is Nililanthic's idea of a normal adolescence but it is not mine.
No to be a teenager is to deal with stuff like this, to not do it or to do it. I have the ablity to go around wacking my parents, fucking who I want, and snort what I want. But I dont! All teens today face this, there are those that do and those that dont. Thiose that do these things dont need to be sent away for it though.
Post by: don_diablo on July 20, 2005, 01:55:00 PM
I was really looking forward to watchin' this show, but there was a mishap with the recording and I ended up with nothin'. If anyone out there knows of a way I could get a copy of last week episodes on tape, please let me know.
Post by: BuzzKill on July 20, 2005, 02:41:00 PM
Post by: Deborah on July 20, 2005, 02:45:00 PM
It's on from 7-9. The premier was 3 hours.
Post by: Anonymous on July 20, 2005, 03:53:00 PM
J
Post by: Anonymous on July 20, 2005, 04:05:00 PM
Go Fuck yourself
Post by: Anonymous on July 20, 2005, 04:07:00 PM
I take it you can't stand to have anyone disagree with you....opposition breads opposition. Go take a look in the mirror when looking for answers, you hypocrite.
Post by: Anonymous on July 20, 2005, 04:10:00 PM
Quote
Poor Lexie. Molested. Who wasn't? Get over it and move on.
Is that what you say to your kid? But you're right, Lexie was probably asking for it anyway, huh?
Asshole.
Post by: obsidian student on July 20, 2005, 04:17:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-19 16:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You are wrong. If you had been through it, you'd know. Obviously you haven't been. You are speaking in theory. I am speaking from my own experience. You are not convincing anyone here, maybe you are trying to convince yourself? Do you have a child in a program?"
Well I did go through a program, and I can say that It did help me and I was able to change my life around, in fact one of my best friends went through the program and moved back to New York with me, And he also changed his life around. However I was 17 when I went through a wilderness program and I can say that I do not think anyone under the age of 16 can actully learn from it.
Post by: Deborah on July 20, 2005, 04:17:00 PM
And we see yet again an example of the double standard held by program advocates.
Do you consider parents/program staff who call teens names 'immature', or do you see them as justified?
Post by: OverLordd on July 20, 2005, 04:21:00 PM
Quote
It seems to me that if you have to resort to calling someone a fucking moron for disagreeing with your childish opinions, you probably could use a class on maturity. Teens being teens? I think not. Having sex with multiple partners? Staying out all night? And refusing to change your behaviour. Sorry. Bye bye. You have choices to make and are old enough at 15 to make the right ones. Poor Lexie. Molested. Who wasn't? Get over it and move on. You don't have to "act out" (putting it mildly) that's ridiculous. I work very hard for my money, and if my kid was getting high on it and telling me to fuck off, I think I'd take that for about a minute. Where does it say that "teens can just act like teens" and parents have to put up with it? Now that is moronic. Obviously you've put your parents through hell. I only hoped THEY survived it. I'm sure they treated you like shit, giving you a curfew, and hoping you'd be smart about drugs and sex. Gosh. You're right. Put them in a jail. Ignorant. Obviously you don't have a child of your own. You don't grasp the terror of a child staying out all night or strung out on drugs. You just don't get it at all. Have fun with your fire. Hopefully, you won't be burning my house down.
J
To be close to the truth its teens acting like the large majority of adults, but continuing on.
Um... hi ::waves his hand up in the air:: I wasent molested. And I hope your children are not either, thought listening to you it seems like they would be.
Oh, and about your house, sure I'll be burning it down... after nailing shut all the escapes....
Post by: webcrawler on July 20, 2005, 04:23:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-20 12:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
"It seems to me that if you have to resort to calling someone a fucking moron for disagreeing with your childish opinions, you probably could use a class on maturity. Teens being teens? I think not. Having sex with multiple partners? Staying out all night? And refusing to change your behaviour. Sorry. Bye bye. You have choices to make and are old enough at 15 to make the right ones. Poor Lexie. Molested. Who wasn't? Get over it and move on. You don't have to "act out" (putting it mildly) that's ridiculous. I work very hard for my money, and if my kid was getting high on it and telling me to fuck off, I think I'd take that for about a minute. Where does it say that "teens can just act like teens" and parents have to put up with it? Now that is moronic. Obviously you've put your parents through hell. I only hoped THEY survived it. I'm sure they treated you like shit, giving you a curfew, and hoping you'd be smart about drugs and sex. Gosh. You're right. Put them in a jail. Ignorant. Obviously you don't have a child of your own. You don't grasp the terror of a child staying out all night or strung out on drugs. You just don't get it at all. Have fun with your fire. Hopefully, you won't be burning my house down.
J"
What a sick and hurtful thing to tell someone to get over being molested. Do you honestly think that is going to help someone? Come on!
If I were looking for help for my child I would be totally turned off by a program that shared your same thought process.
For the record I have never said I am against therapy either. I said I support therapy from an empowerment / strengths based approach. Perhaps you should research the models. Belittling someone is not going to heal.
Personally, I'm glad Overlordd posts here. He is a kid and it's great to here what kids are actually thinking about. Perhaps if people like you spent more time listening to what kids had to say, there would be less power struggles.
Post by: Anonymous on July 20, 2005, 04:33:00 PM
Because of you some kid may be saved from a lot of self=destruction when some parent reads your post and decides that you sound a lot more coherent than most of the posters here
People like you serve to bring some balance to the madness alright---but don't expect any thanks from the "true believers" who have decided that adolesents should get to run wild on their parents' dime---and no program that is not totally voluntary could do anyone any good.
That means--you will likely be told--that you are currently brainwashed and will smarten up and turn anti-program when you are out for 3 years (if you've been out for 2 years), 5 years (if you've been out for 4) and so on..
That way, the possibility that you may actually have benefited never has to be addressed.
Sells pretty well to the true believer types---sounds lame and unlikely to unbiased parents who are here to look at possibilities...not propaganda
Post by: BuzzKill on July 20, 2005, 04:51:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-20 11:45:00, Deborah wrote:
"
Perhaps a recap at the beginning?
It's on from 7-9. The premier was 3 hours."
I'm sure your right.
Post by: Deborah on July 20, 2005, 04:54:00 PM
And, another fine example of the hysteric over exaggeration of program advocates.
If your child is/was running wild on your dime, you are the one who needs a bootcamp. The primary argument here is that parents need to pull their heads out and parent. And if they can't, for the sake of their child, send them to a relative. If a parent resorts to a lock-down warehouse for so-called troubled teens, then it is their duty to research the facility to the ninth degree, do not allow any program to shut off communication or tell you how to interpret what your child tells you. Ask questions, consult with outside professionals for opinions on the methods employed.
Post by: obsidian student on July 20, 2005, 05:06:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on July 20, 2005, 05:12:00 PM
Quote
Poor Lexie. Molested. Who wasn't? Get over it and move on.
You are a piece of shit. NO debate there.
Remember, as the program says, 'it's all about actions and consequences.' I hope your kid doesn't kill you, if I were them, I would have already.
:wave:
Post by: Anonymous on July 20, 2005, 05:13:00 PM
Quote
However I was 17 when I went through a wilderness program and I can say that I do not think anyone under the age of 16 can actully learn from it.
90% of the kids that go are below the age of 16.
Post by: Anonymous on July 20, 2005, 05:15:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-20 13:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I think it's good that you share your experience here because parents do read this board. If you know of other program successes it would help to hear their stories to if they are interested
Because of you some kid may be saved from a lot of self=destruction when some parent reads your post and decides that you sound a lot more coherent than most of the posters here
People like you serve to bring some balance to the madness alright---but don't expect any thanks from the "true believers" who have decided that adolesents should get to run wild on their parents' dime---and no program that is not totally voluntary could do anyone any good.
That means--you will likely be told--that you are currently brainwashed and will smarten up and turn anti-program when you are out for 3 years (if you've been out for 2 years), 5 years (if you've been out for 4) and so on..
That way, the possibility that you may actually have benefited never has to be addressed.
Sells pretty well to the true believer types---sounds lame and unlikely to unbiased parents who are here to look at possibilities...not propaganda
"
And it sounds like you haven't been through a program.
Or have you? which one?
What do you bring to the table other than your flawed observations?
Post by: obsidian student on July 20, 2005, 05:17:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-20 14:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"QuoteHowever I was 17 when I went through a wilderness program and I can say that I do not think anyone under the age of 16 can actully learn from it.
90% of the kids that go are below the age of 16. "
As I said I don?t think anyone under the age of 16 should go into a wilderness program, I said this because I don?t think that children under the age of 16 are mature enough to learn from it, however I am sure there are exceptions
Post by: Anonymous on July 20, 2005, 05:23:00 PM
Whatever---maybe being shrill works for you--but to me you'd be a lot more convincing if you didn't constantly try to sound compelling by saying ridiculous things ("If your child is/was running wild on your dime, you are the one who needs a bootcamp").
Lots of people have tried all possible---and well-thought-options---before deciding to spend a small fortune to be separated from a child they love for the sake of that child's future.
They don't need silly suggestions like that one from a maddingly silly woman who tries to parade around as having some degree of parenting skills--or even a lick of common sense---in spite of almost unbelievably voluminous posts that prove the contrary
Post by: Anonymous on July 20, 2005, 05:28:00 PM
Quote
Sells pretty well to the true believer types---sounds lame and unlikely to unbiased parents who are here to look at possibilities...not propaganda
The parents should also consider what people's motives are. Those who have had terrible experiences as either a prisoner or parent of a prisoner motives are clear. They feel wronged, abused, whatever- and want to make it right. They want others to know what happened to them, so it will not continue to happen.
Now, what are the motives of program supporters? If you child already went through the program succesfully, why not move on with your life? What are you trying to prove? Do you think you are 'helping' other parents by arguing for the program?
Doesn't make a whole lot of sense does it. What does make sense? Money. Cold hard cash. That's why the program supporters are here. I could easily be on here telling everyone about what a GREAT experience I had at a program, only to sucker them into asking me how/why/where, etc. If I refer them to certain programs, I can make thousands of dollars. If my kid is in the program and I refer a new student, I can receive a free month! That's almost $4000!
They might argue it's not about the cash, or trying to persuade themselves of their own doubts, but that is their only motive.
Unless this hypocrite posting above who calls us 'true-believers', is a true believer themselves, only, they believe in the prorgam's ideology. A business to make hundreds of millions of dollars off middle-upper class white families who think they need to take drastic measures.
So- who in reality is a 'true-believer'. It is you, program supporters. You can peddle your bullshit all you want. You only confirm what sadistic, torturing pieces of shit you all are.
This is about FEAR, MONEY and CONTROL. Parents are tired of raising their child. They are tired of waiting up all night to see if they come home. Lucky for them, instead of actually BEING PARENTS, they can just pay someone else to try.
What's wrong with paying a unqualified HICK minimum wage to watch 20 kids? According to the program supporters, nothing. They'd rather have their child be in a private gulag than have to worry. Sounds pretty selfish, eh? It is.
Most parents don't even visit the faciltiy. A lot of parents hire kidnappers to take their child away.
Would you send your child away to a place you've never been?
Would you send your child away to people you've never met?
Would you send your child away to a facility where children have DIED recently?
Would you spend 4000 a month which amounts to nothing more than a camping trip or private prison?
If you answered yes to all these questions, you should talk to the anon program supporter. I'm sure they need another month of free tuition for their own kid that is locked up right now. Why else would they be here justifying themselves online ?
Post by: Anonymous on July 20, 2005, 05:38:00 PM
I can't speak for anyone else---but for the record,I get nothing out of pointing out that programs can sometimes help---except the satisfaction of knowing that some parents and kids will benefit from this advice.
That's why I will continue to give my opinion. Without even foaming at the mouth while I'm giving it.
Post by: Anonymous on July 20, 2005, 05:42:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-20 14:23:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You know Deborah it's interesting that YOU would use the word "hysteric".
Whatever---maybe being shrill works for you--but to me you'd be a lot more convincing if you didn't constantly try to sound compelling by saying ridiculous things ("If your child is/was running wild on your dime, you are the one who needs a bootcamp").
Lots of people have tried all possible---and well-thought-options---before deciding to spend a small fortune to be separated from a child they love for the sake of that child's future.
They don't need silly suggestions like that one from a maddingly silly woman who tries to parade around as having some degree of parenting skills--or even a lick of common sense---in spite of almost unbelievably voluminous posts that prove the contrary"
Oops for a minute I thought you were talking about Sue Scheff (PURE) regarding parents-helping-parents.
Obviously Deborah has pushed your buttons as is often the case with you program apologists and/or supporters every time somebody tells you to put down the koolaid and face the reality that parenting is a job for PARENTS. Don't like the job? Don't have kids. It's that simple.
:roll:
Post by: Antigen on July 20, 2005, 05:48:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-20 14:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
I can't speak for anyone else---but for the record,I get nothing out of pointing out that programs can sometimes help---except the satisfaction of knowing that some parents and kids will benefit from this advice.
And, by the very same token, people have been known to benefit by ingesting poke berries. So go on out and eat a few handfuls of them. Ya' never know, you might just survive.
Impiety: Your irreverence toward my deity.
--Ambrose Bierce
Post by: Anonymous on July 20, 2005, 05:48:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-20 14:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Sounds---in fact--like this guy was about foaming at the mouth by the time he was finished.
I can't speak for anyone else---but for the record,I get nothing out of pointing out that programs can sometimes help---except the satisfaction of knowing that some parents and kids will benefit from this advice.
That's why I will continue to give my opinion. Without even foaming at the mouth while I'm giving it."
Why would you foam at the mouth?
Have you been hogtied, locked up in isolation for weeks and fed shit for food? I doubt it.
Being able to edit emotion out of your posts is not something special. It shows you are cold hearted program supporter, who probably has never even set foot on a program themselves.
You see... I don't care what you think. I don't care what anyone thinks. I don't even care what a potential program parent coming on here to research information thinks. I am here for myself, not you.
If I want to call you a stupid cunt bitch, well, there ya go, I just did. Do I care if a potential program parent discounts everything I say now? Nope.
Obviously you've shown you care about what the parents think. You are trying to convince them of something. I wonder what that is..
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Good luck in life, I couldn't imagine having to actually KNOW someone like you in real life. THAT WOULD BE TERRIBLE! :wave:
Post by: obsidian student on July 20, 2005, 05:49:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-20 14:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
"QuoteSells pretty well to the true believer types---sounds lame and unlikely to unbiased parents who are here to look at possibilities...not propaganda
The parents should also consider what people's motives are. Those who have had terrible experiences as either a prisoner or parent of a prisoner motives are clear. They feel wronged, abused, whatever- and want to make it right. They want others to know what happened to them, so it will not continue to happen.
Now, what are the motives of program supporters? If you child already went through the program succesfully, why not move on with your life? What are you trying to prove? Do you think you are 'helping' other parents by arguing for the program?
Doesn't make a whole lot of sense does it. What does make sense? Money. Cold hard cash. That's why the program supporters are here. I could easily be on here telling everyone about what a GREAT experience I had at a program, only to sucker them into asking me how/why/where, etc. If I refer them to certain programs, I can make thousands of dollars. If my kid is in the program and I refer a new student, I can receive a free month! That's almost $4000!
They might argue it's not about the cash, or trying to persuade themselves of their own doubts, but that is their only motive.
Unless this hypocrite posting above who calls us 'true-believers', is a true believer themselves, only, they believe in the prorgam's ideology. A business to make hundreds of millions of dollars off middle-upper class white families who think they need to take drastic measures.
So- who in reality is a 'true-believer'. It is you, program supporters. You can peddle your bullshit all you want. You only confirm what sadistic, torturing pieces of shit you all are.
This is about FEAR, MONEY and CONTROL. Parents are tired of raising their child. They are tired of waiting up all night to see if they come home. Lucky for them, instead of actually BEING PARENTS, they can just pay someone else to try.
What's wrong with paying a unqualified HICK minimum wage to watch 20 kids? According to the program supporters, nothing. They'd rather have their child be in a private gulag than have to worry. Sounds pretty selfish, eh? It is.
Most parents don't even visit the faciltiy. A lot of parents hire kidnappers to take their child away.
Would you send your child away to a place you've never been?
Would you send your child away to people you've never met?
Would you send your child away to a facility where children have DIED recently?
Would you spend 4000 a month which amounts to nothing more than a camping trip or private prison?
If you answered yes to all these questions, you should talk to the anon program supporter. I'm sure they need another month of free tuition for their own kid that is locked up right now. Why else would they be here justifying themselves online ? "
I can obviously tell from the language the maturity level of many people posting. If a person survives from cancer and after their recovery wanted to help others cope with the disease. Would you say they are doing it because they want money. I have no affiliation with any wilderness school, nor do I think every wilderness school is the perfect option for every child. However I can say that I to was lied to by my parents and had the escort service take me from New York to oregan, and I had to endure 4 months in the wilderness. And I think a wilderness program can be an effective method of dealing with a troubled teenager. However I would definetly sugggest to any parent thinking about sending there child to a wilderness program to research thouroughly.
Post by: Anonymous on July 20, 2005, 05:50:00 PM
Lets hear it.
Cunt bitch.
:skull: :skull: :skull:
Why not sign your name this time.. pretty please? I want to KNOW you.
Post by: Anonymous on July 20, 2005, 05:53:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-20 14:49:00, obsidian student wrote:
"I can obviously tell from the language the maturity level of many people posting. If a person survives from cancer and after their recovery wanted to help others cope with the disease. Would you say they are doing it because they want money. I have no affiliation with any wilderness school, nor do I think every wilderness school is the perfect option for every child. However I can say that I to was lied to by my parents and had the escort service take me from New York to oregan, and I had to endure 4 months in the wilderness. And I think a wilderness program can be an effective method of dealing with a troubled teenager. However I would definetly sugggest to any parent thinking about sending there child to a wilderness program to research thouroughly."
I can tell by the language used by this poster, they are obviously stupid. The language says it all. Wouldn't you agree?
It sounds to me you don't know what you think. Why not work it out in your own head first before suggesting it to other parents? Just an idea.
Maybe you should think of starting your posts off with something other than an insult next time?
:wave:
Post by: Anonymous on July 20, 2005, 05:53:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-20 14:49:00, obsidian student wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-07-20 14:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
"QuoteSells pretty well to the true believer types---sounds lame and unlikely to unbiased parents who are here to look at possibilities...not propaganda
The parents should also consider what people's motives are. Those who have had terrible experiences as either a prisoner or parent of a prisoner motives are clear. They feel wronged, abused, whatever- and want to make it right. They want others to know what happened to them, so it will not continue to happen.
Now, what are the motives of program supporters? If you child already went through the program succesfully, why not move on with your life? What are you trying to prove? Do you think you are 'helping' other parents by arguing for the program?
Doesn't make a whole lot of sense does it. What does make sense? Money. Cold hard cash. That's why the program supporters are here. I could easily be on here telling everyone about what a GREAT experience I had at a program, only to sucker them into asking me how/why/where, etc. If I refer them to certain programs, I can make thousands of dollars. If my kid is in the program and I refer a new student, I can receive a free month! That's almost $4000!
They might argue it's not about the cash, or trying to persuade themselves of their own doubts, but that is their only motive.
Unless this hypocrite posting above who calls us 'true-believers', is a true believer themselves, only, they believe in the prorgam's ideology. A business to make hundreds of millions of dollars off middle-upper class white families who think they need to take drastic measures.
So- who in reality is a 'true-believer'. It is you, program supporters. You can peddle your bullshit all you want. You only confirm what sadistic, torturing pieces of shit you all are.
This is about FEAR, MONEY and CONTROL. Parents are tired of raising their child. They are tired of waiting up all night to see if they come home. Lucky for them, instead of actually BEING PARENTS, they can just pay someone else to try.
What's wrong with paying a unqualified HICK minimum wage to watch 20 kids? According to the program supporters, nothing. They'd rather have their child be in a private gulag than have to worry. Sounds pretty selfish, eh? It is.
Most parents don't even visit the faciltiy. A lot of parents hire kidnappers to take their child away.
Would you send your child away to a place you've never been?
Would you send your child away to people you've never met?
Would you send your child away to a facility where children have DIED recently?
Would you spend 4000 a month which amounts to nothing more than a camping trip or private prison?
If you answered yes to all these questions, you should talk to the anon program supporter. I'm sure they need another month of free tuition for their own kid that is locked up right now. Why else would they be here justifying themselves online ? "
I can obviously tell from the language the maturity level of many people posting. If a person survives from cancer and after their recovery wanted to help others cope with the disease. Would you say they are doing it because they want money. I have no affiliation with any wilderness school, nor do I think every wilderness school is the perfect option for every child. However I can say that I to was lied to by my parents and had the escort service take me from New York to oregan, and I had to endure 4 months in the wilderness. And I think a wilderness program can be an effective method of dealing with a troubled teenager. However I would definetly sugggest to any parent thinking about sending there child to a wilderness program to research thouroughly."
120 days in the wilderness? That's ridiculous. How much did that "experience" cost your parents, including the strangers they paid to come and get 'ya?
:roll:
Post by: Anonymous on July 20, 2005, 05:58:00 PM
Dead, in jail? We are waiting.
Post by: obsidian student on July 20, 2005, 05:59:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on July 20, 2005, 06:03:00 PM
THANKS AGAIN! :flame: :flame: :flame: :flame:
Post by: Anonymous on July 20, 2005, 06:04:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-20 14:59:00, obsidian student wrote:
"Alot less than my college tution that I am going to be paying off until I'm 35."
Aw shucks! You mean your parents spent your college fund to send you to a Brat Camp?
Don't feel bad ... that's pretty much the story for most kids whose parents buy into these programs thinking if they don't, the kid won't be going to college anyway. They'll be dead or in jail.
Post by: Anonymous on July 20, 2005, 06:11:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-20 15:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Yeah, I hear that. Unfortunately I will be paying my bachelor's off for a while as well. My grandfather left me about 40 g's when he died for school. My dad decided to use it all on a program.
THANKS AGAIN! :flame: :flame: :flame: :flame: "
Man, these programs are such a rip off, in more ways than one. I know one kid whose mom was able to keep him a program for almost 3 years b/c she was referring so many other kids for "tuition credits" she could keep him locked up for free.
It's a racket. And it needs to stop!
Post by: Anonymous on July 20, 2005, 06:25:00 PM
Quote
If a person survives from cancer and after their recovery wanted to help others cope with the disease. Would you say they are doing it because they want money.
A MORE accurate analogy would be:
What would you do/say if someone was peddling the WRONG cure for cancer, and claimed it actually cured the disease?
Post by: Anonymous on July 20, 2005, 06:50:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on July 20, 2005, 06:51:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-20 15:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"QuoteIf a person survives from cancer and after their recovery wanted to help others cope with the disease. Would you say they are doing it because they want money.
A MORE accurate analogy would be:
What would you do/say if someone was peddling the WRONG cure for cancer, and claimed it actually cured the disease?"
Well If I survived from that cure I can say that it helped me.
Post by: obsidian student on July 20, 2005, 06:53:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-20 15:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-07-20 14:59:00, obsidian student wrote:
"Alot less than my college tution that I am going to be paying off until I'm 35."
Aw shucks! You mean your parents spent your college fund to send you to a Brat Camp?
Don't feel bad ... that's pretty much the story for most kids whose parents buy into these programs thinking if they don't, the kid won't be going to college anyway. They'll be dead or in jail.
"
No unfourtunetly there was no college fund for me.
Post by: Antigen on July 20, 2005, 06:54:00 PM
Pretty simple, really!
When I tell the truth, it is not for the sake of convincing those who do not know it, but for the sake of defending those that do.
William Blake
Post by: obsidian student on July 20, 2005, 06:58:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on July 20, 2005, 07:08:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-20 15:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"First, I must apologize about the Lexi remark and getting over being molested. I'm just frustrated at the level of maturity on some of these postings.
I know, it's difficult dealing w/ independent minded people when you're so used to the stark black-n-white world of program dogma. Hang in there, you'll get used to it.
Quote
Just because Lexi was molested, that doesn't give her the right to screw up her life.
Just because Lexi's parents allowed her to be molested doesn't give them the right to determine whether or not she's screwing up her life. Sadly, there are no do-overs. It's not only wrong, but patently impossible to try to turn your young adult kid back into a toddler just so you can have another shot at raising them "right".
Quote
Hopefully, she will get the help she needs to believe in herself again.
Yeah, and hopefully she'll be able to undo the program damage too.
Quote
Whatever she was doing, her parents were desperate.
Exactly! She may very well have been handling things admirably and competently. It's her parents who lost their grip.
Quote
That doesn't mean they were pawning her off for someone else to parent.
That's exactly what it means.
Quote
You people have no idea what these parents have tried.
You have no idea who you're talking to. Got grandkids yet?
Quote
You people think there should be no consequences at all for bad behavior.
Moot point. There are consequences, good and bad, for all kinds of behavior. No getting around that. You people seem to think it's perfectly sane and reasonable to contrive bad consequences where God forgot to provide them.
Quote
You think staying up all night waiting for your drunk, loaded, meth-infested kid to come home is part of parenting?
Sometimes it is. Oh, did you not read the fine print when you bought your kid? What were you thinking! No guarantees. Sometimes kids screw up.
Quote
Where is the kid's responsibility?WTF are you talking about? The kid is the one puking, head throbbing, dealing w/ whatever damned fool think he did the night before. You're just a bystander. You could try to be helpful. But no, you're too busy feeling sorry for yourself, thinking your kid owes you something, thinking about what you deserve. You're pathetic!
Quote
Oh, that's right, you don't think there should be any because you're kids.
To you? No. You made the choice to bring a child into this world. The kid had no choice in the matter. One way in which the Program has actually helped me is that it taught me to never, ever, in any way, subltle or overt, betray my kids faith as was done to me. I'm thankful for every little kindness and proud of every accomplishment my kids make. My kids will never have to lay awake at night wondering if I'm going to send them off to be brainwashed.
Quote
What a joke. Use language people understand because I thought you were complimenting me when you called me a cunt. I'm sure you'll all be terrific parents to your kids because obviously you have all the answers. You know more than every parent, and everyone who disagrees with you is a moron, cunt, etc. Wow. You must be so proud. "
I know a good deal more than you do about what it's like to be on the receiving end of your brand of benevolence. Your kid does too. Unfortunately, you've been instructed to disregard anything he or she may say that challenges program dogma. And you're very obedient. So they'll just have to wait to get free and find what they need from someone else. So sad.
Totalitarianism is like a specter which drinks the blood of the living and so achieves reality, while the victims go on existing as a mass of living corpses.
Karl Jaspers, The Fight Against Totalitarianism (1963)
Post by: Anonymous on July 20, 2005, 07:18:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-20 15:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Well If I survived from that cure I can say that it helped me."
Same as with cancer, teenage years are not fatal to everyone going through it.
If I sold someone with cancer a bunch of sugar packets, and their cancer went away, would you endorse my sugar packet treatment?
Post by: Nihilanthic on July 20, 2005, 08:29:00 PM
For one, if the kids were as bad as they are claimed to be, theyd say "fuck" twice, get two big rocks, and smash someones head in with it. I might say "damn" so I could throw it at the back of someones head first to add insult to injury. :flame:
Sacred cows make the best hamburger.
Mark Twain
Post by: Anonymous on July 20, 2005, 08:41:00 PM
Believe me, if your kid didn't want you to find something out, chances are, you would never find out. They want to get caught, they want you to see everything they are doing to themselves and those around them. Why? They want more attention from YOU.
The problem is, when you're a teen, you don't even know places like this can exist. When suddenly your lies, exaggerations and experimentations get you into a situation you had not planned for, you are unsure of what to do. By the time you are there, it is too late. Now, when you start saying you really didn't do the things you said you had, as according to your parents- it just looks like you are a liar, and don't want to 'work the program'.
You might think this is some crazy, wild idea. It is not. I implore you to carefully watch the faces of these young teens as they are asked to explain their 'evil' deeds. They are usually lying. They are always exaggerating. They are surrounded by their peers. Would it be 'cool' of them to say, I love my parents so much all I really want is attention and love from them, so I act out. Would it be cool of them to say, I am hurt because of this event in my life, and I don't know how to deal with the pain so I smoke weed. Of course it wouldn't. In fact, it would be quite embarassing for them. So instead they continue the act they know.
I know this is not the case with 100% of teenagers, just something to think about when watching.
Post by: webcrawler on July 20, 2005, 09:59:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-20 14:06:00, obsidian student wrote:
"Thank you for the kind words, I have been out of the program for almost 6 years now. I am actully in the police academy currently, I would definetly suggest research into the programs and to make sure the child going into the program is mature enough to learn from it. I believe that one thing a wilderness program can do for a child is take them completly out of their enviroment by doing this it was a way I was able to look at my sit back and look at my life and see what mistakes I was making and was able to understand how to make some better choices. I can also say that when a person is made to go without all the things you love in life you are able to appreciate those thing in a whole new way."
Look I'm glad to hear you have your life together and all, but perhaps it can be attributed to life exp. and growing older. I think people give these programs way too much credit. I know a lot of people that were wild as teens and they turned out alright.
The problem with many of the parents is that they never set consistent limits on their children from day one. They over indulge their children from the day the kid throws a temper tantrum in the store over a toy and the parent gives in. All of a sudden the kid turns 12 and is demanding more and the parent who never had consistancy with rules is at a loss of what to do.
On the other end of the spectrum there are many kids that have been abused, mistreated and bullied at school by teachers and peers, have chaotic families, suffer self esteem issues and do a lot of this stuff either for attention, to anger and hurt those that hurt them, or to escape from the emotional pain. Yelling and screaming at them while pushing them into exhaustion is not helpful.
Then there are just kids that are curious to try things. It's called being a teen.
Your kids didn't start acting out for the hell of it. It's an issue that involves the parents too, whether or not you care to admit it.
You speak of appreciating things once taken away, okay well parents can do the same thing. Take the TVs, radios, computers, Ipods, cell phones, video games, spending money away and start holding your children accountable. Stop expecting someone else to parent your child. Kids are going to act disrespectful to parents that disrespect them. It's human nature.
Post by: Anonymous on July 20, 2005, 09:59:00 PM
I guess you get paid for it somehow, through advertising or something. Maybe that makes it worth it to you
But your responses just now to the poster who talked about Lexi, well it says it all, it tells the whole story, about you...you poor old excuse for a human being
That poster obviously meant something good, productive..something positive. All you could do was pick out phrases and diminish. Honey....your response said a whole lot more about who you really are than it ever said about this poster
I hope any parent trying to make sense of these pages looks at your response in this case... and then decides to kick your jaded damaged opinions to the curb where they absolutely belong
Post by: Anonymous on July 20, 2005, 10:11:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-20 18:59:00, webcrawler wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-07-20 14:06:00, obsidian student wrote:
"Thank you for the kind words, I have been out of the program for almost 6 years now. I am actully in the police academy currently, I would definetly suggest research into the programs and to make sure the child going into the program is mature enough to learn from it. I believe that one thing a wilderness program can do for a child is take them completly out of their enviroment by doing this it was a way I was able to look at my sit back and look at my life and see what mistakes I was making and was able to understand how to make some better choices. I can also say that when a person is made to go without all the things you love in life you are able to appreciate those thing in a whole new way."
Look I'm glad to hear you have your life together and all, but perhaps it can be attributed to life exp. and growing older. I think people give these programs way too much credit. I know a lot of people that were wild as teens and they turned out alright.
The problem with many of the parents is that they never set consistent limits on their children from day one. They over indulge their children from the day the kid throws a temper tantrum in the store over a toy and the parent gives in. All of a sudden the kid turns 12 and is demanding more and the parent who never had consistancy with rules is at a loss of what to do.
On the other end of the spectrum there are many kids that have been abused, mistreated and bullied at school by teachers and peers, have chaotic families, suffer self esteem issues and do a lot of this stuff either for attention, to anger and hurt those that hurt them, or to escape from the emotional pain. Yelling and screaming at them while pushing them into exhaustion is not helpful.
Then there are just kids that are curious to try things. It's called being a teen.
Your kids didn't start acting out for the hell of it. It's an issue that involves the parents too, whether or not you care to admit it.
You speak of appreciating things once taken away, okay well parents can do the same thing. Take the TVs, radios, computers, Ipods, cell phones, video games, spending money away and start holding your children accountable. Stop expecting someone else to parent your child. Kids are going to act disrespectful to parents that disrespect them. It's human nature."
I can understand what your saying but I am in no way speaking of kids who misbehave or direspect there parents,I understand that rebelling is natural for teenagers. I was a drug addict teen and my parents tryed all the options including therapy, counslers etc. They chose the option of wilderness therapy and I can say that through the program they changed also they understood that many of my problems were because of things they were doing and they were able to change how they were acting as well as I was able to understand my own problems.
Post by: Anonymous on July 20, 2005, 10:12:00 PM
This is what Webcrawler says about Obsidian Student's evaluation of his/her own experience.
Amazing how some very negativistic posters here have special knowledge of what really happened in other people's lives!!
For myself, I think that Obsidian Student sounds like an insightful together person.
If Obsidian Student said that this program was helpful I am inclined to accept that analysis at face value
Especially compared to the analysis of Webcrawler-- who I have no reason to believe has a clue about Obsidian Student's actual experience
Post by: Anonymous on July 20, 2005, 10:17:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-20 18:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Imagine applying the declining years of your life (that is what they are you know) to running a negativistic destructive site like this. Poor old you!!
I guess you get paid for it somehow, through advertising or something. Maybe that makes it worth it to you
But your responses just now to the poster who talked about Lexi, well it says it all, it tells the whole story, about you...you poor old excuse for a human being
That poster obviously meant something good, productive..something positive. All you could do was pick out phrases and diminish. Honey....your response said a whole lot more about who you really are than it ever said about this poster
I hope any parent trying to make sense of these pages looks at your response in this case... and then decides to kick your jaded damaged opinions to the curb where they absolutely belong"
Wow, something must of struck a nerve, eh?
You deplore everyone for their low maturity level here, and then have no problem resulting to insults in the same fashion. Talk about hypocrisy.
Thank you Ginger for this website. You are doing something right, if you can illicit this kind of anger from a program supporter!
Post by: webcrawler on July 20, 2005, 10:22:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-20 19:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-07-20 18:59:00, webcrawler wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-07-20 14:06:00, obsidian student wrote:
"Thank you for the kind words, I have been out of the program for almost 6 years now. I am actully in the police academy currently, I would definetly suggest research into the programs and to make sure the child going into the program is mature enough to learn from it. I believe that one thing a wilderness program can do for a child is take them completly out of their enviroment by doing this it was a way I was able to look at my sit back and look at my life and see what mistakes I was making and was able to understand how to make some better choices. I can also say that when a person is made to go without all the things you love in life you are able to appreciate those thing in a whole new way."
Look I'm glad to hear you have your life together and all, but perhaps it can be attributed to life exp. and growing older. I think people give these programs way too much credit. I know a lot of people that were wild as teens and they turned out alright.
The problem with many of the parents is that they never set consistent limits on their children from day one. They over indulge their children from the day the kid throws a temper tantrum in the store over a toy and the parent gives in. All of a sudden the kid turns 12 and is demanding more and the parent who never had consistancy with rules is at a loss of what to do.
On the other end of the spectrum there are many kids that have been abused, mistreated and bullied at school by teachers and peers, have chaotic families, suffer self esteem issues and do a lot of this stuff either for attention, to anger and hurt those that hurt them, or to escape from the emotional pain. Yelling and screaming at them while pushing them into exhaustion is not helpful.
Then there are just kids that are curious to try things. It's called being a teen.
Your kids didn't start acting out for the hell of it. It's an issue that involves the parents too, whether or not you care to admit it.
You speak of appreciating things once taken away, okay well parents can do the same thing. Take the TVs, radios, computers, Ipods, cell phones, video games, spending money away and start holding your children accountable. Stop expecting someone else to parent your child. Kids are going to act disrespectful to parents that disrespect them. It's human nature."
I can understand what your saying but I am in no way speaking of kids who misbehave or direspect there parents,I understand that rebelling is natural for teenagers. I was a drug addict teen and my parents tryed all the options including therapy, counslers etc. They chose the option of wilderness therapy and I can say that through the program they changed also they understood that many of my problems were because of things they were doing and they were able to change how they were acting as well as I was able to understand my own problems."
I'm not trying to discount your exp or opinion, but let me say this, I once said almost the same thing you did about trying everything and my last place being the only one that helped. Most of us here have said it regardless of what program we were in. We were trained to believe that it was necessary to put up with all the negative things there for the few good ones. The break them down and build them approach is the wrong way to go.
I too was in several places and visted many counselors before my TWO YEAR stint at the last place. Here's where my parents went wrong: they did not force me to follow through on any of the places and when they did not see immediate results they gave up.
Post by: webcrawler on July 20, 2005, 10:30:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-20 19:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
""Look I'm glad to hear you have your life together and all, but perhaps it can be attributed to life exp. and growing older. I think people give these programs way too much credit. I know a lot of people that were wild as teens and they turned out alright."
This is what Webcrawler says about Obsidian Student's evaluation of his/her own experience.
Amazing how some very negativistic posters here have special knowledge of what really happened in other people's lives!!
For myself, I think that Obsidian Student sounds like an insightful together person.
If Obsidian Student said that this program was helpful I am inclined to accept that analysis at face value
Especially compared to the analysis of Webcrawler-- who I have no reason to believe has a clue about Obsidian Student's actual experience
"
Perhaps you should slow down and read what I wrote again. Telling someone I'm glad they got their life together is not being negative!
Perhaps you should read all the posts by this student as they have admitted on another thread that the place had some bad aspects as well.
I do have a clue as to what kids experience as I was in a program for 22 months plus 6 months aftercare, a hospital, a youth home, and been to many counselors as a teen. I speak from experience and I don't know why you are so hell bent on arguing with me and making snide remarks.
Your sub topic is pretty obnoxious I may add.
Post by: Anonymous on July 21, 2005, 12:03:00 AM
Post by: Deborah on July 21, 2005, 12:17:00 AM
Guess what? It?s not your place to make that judgment. It?s not useful and doesn't accurately describe reality. This is precisely one of the key attitudes that should change. It appears that the masses believe that when people are acting recklessly and hurting themselves that they are doing so consciously. It has not a thing to do with her having the ?right? to screw up her life. I?m sure she?d much rather be at peace.
If you can?t respect the challenges and understand that motivations behind ?self-destructive? behavior are subconscious, you shouldn?t be in the ?helping? field.
It's a major flaw with the so-called philosophy and ?treatment? in these BM warehouses.
Just curious, what?s it to you? Why is it so important to you that she NOT have the RIGHT to screw up her life- as you interpret it?
My son did a lot of ?destructive? things when he returned from the program that he hadn?t done before- self mutilating, devil worshipping, smoking, drinking, wearing anarchy t-shirts, parrot green hair, black finger nails, chains, army boots. Regarding his appearance, which was down played?. he finally figured out, ?It was his safety blanket?. He had been so hurt and traumatized that he trusted no one. He wanted to repel people. I could?ve lectured him till the cows come home. I could?ve forced him to dress differently. And I would?ve been just another authority figure telling him not to FEEL and act and dress the way he felt. He wanted/needed to be in control. HE decided when it was safe to take it off- when it repelled people that he wanted to be close to. That took time and lots of listening on my part. And honestly, I was kinda glad. It does get old, smiling at people in pubic when they are gawking at your kid.
Many parents/?helpers? don?t allow kids the process, to come to things on their own. They don?t trust that they can or will. Too often it is about their need to boost their own egos with the notion that they ?saved? the kid.
These programs are less about building self esteem and more about teaching kids to defer to authority, and how to act. Any good that could come from them is missed due the unnecessarily abusive methods.
Let?s take the scene with Shawn. He?s already carrying more than his share of supplies but is guilt tripped into doing more- filling water bottles. I thought his argument was reasonable. Staff interpreted it for the audience as a reluctance to ?take responsibility?. His arguments may not always be reasonable, but that one was. It seemed to me to be the best scenario they could contrive to ?address his issue? of not contributing. Pretty lame. Why contrive a situation? If he genuinely has an ?issue? with not contributing it most certainly would come up in due course. But then if it didn?t, it might spoil the plot. I imagine that they probably choreographed scenarios for each of the kids. And I don?t believe for a minute that, as Glacier said, the staff knew nothing of ?why? the kids were there- their ?issues?.
Did you hear Shawn parrot what the counselor had fed him? His problems stemmed from- fear of acceptance due to being adopted. Well excuse me, that might very well be the case, but it would mean a hell of a lot more and be cleaner if he had been allowed to come to that realization on his own. Instead, he has another ?authority figure? telling him WHAT his issues are and how he should THINK about them and ACT.
Fear of acceptance? perhaps it?s different for all those in program land, but it?s my belief that kids/people don?t fear being accepted by their family for no good reason. Did you hear what his adopted father said? ?I don?t care if he?s cold?. It wasn?t a tone of acceptance. Sounded like resentment to me. And what IF, Shawn doesn?t feel accepted for good reason? Now, will he go back and just ?accept? their inability to accept him? I can?t help but imagine that this is the real goal and very possibly the case.
***You people have no idea what these parents have tried.
I did hear Jada?s mom say the she just couldn?t listen to her daughter talk about her sexual encounters. Now that?s some damn good modeling for your child. Sex is bad, I can?t talk about it, I can?t listen to your experience. Did it ever occur to you that kids are constantly checking to see what their parents are made of. To see if they are really present. Really invested in their well being. Hell, to see if they're even real. I?d give up too if my parent was such an apathetic, narcissistic wimp. I?d like to take that mom to the wilderness for 90+ days and hike her in freezing weather. The whole time talking about sex and where/when she developed her unnatural and unrealistic beliefs. I?d require her to talk about nothing but sex until she was deprogrammed. Perhaps when she got home she?d appreciate her daughter?s attempt at intimacy.
And the expression on Flying Eagle?s face when he was ?counseling? the kids, particularly Frank. If my therapist looked that concerned and overly invested in MY ?issues?, I?d run like hell. He looked like he was in pain or fear, or both.
Post by: Anonymous on July 21, 2005, 12:19:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on July 21, 2005, 12:28:00 AM
This show makes me want to throw up. They think its all a game or something. I mean come on, who thinks this actually helps anybody with serious issues.
Post by: Anonymous on July 21, 2005, 12:31:00 AM
::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke::
These 'therapists' are clueless. These 'counselors' are clueless. Most of allk, the parents are. For believing these wackos can safely care for their child. In addition they somehow believe they will solve their problems somehow? Get real!
Post by: Anonymous on July 21, 2005, 12:38:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on July 21, 2005, 12:40:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on July 21, 2005, 10:05:00 AM
Other things are not so general.
A few posts back Webcrawler claimed to "have a clue" about Obsidian Student's experience because both of them had been in programs.
Problem is: Webcrawler seems to have hated his experience, Obsidian Student found his---not perfect---but overall helpful and positive.
So either these are different experiences or (as is more common here in true-believer-land) anyone who thinks his experience was good must be brainwashed, evil, "just wait for another year and you'll see the light", etc, etc, etc.
Obsidian Student's posts seem pretty balanced and reasonable to me...especially compared to some other posters. He's 6 years post program---if he was going to have some great revelation there's a good chance he would have had it by now
You might just as easily argue that given another year or two Webcrawler or any number of the negative types here could have a revelation that their program was really good. Now how likely it that to happen?
Post by: OverLordd on July 21, 2005, 10:07:00 AM
Post by: webcrawler on July 21, 2005, 11:00:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-07-21 07:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Now some things are universal: if you or I put our hand in fire...our skin gets burned.
Other things are not so general.
A few posts back Webcrawler claimed to "have a clue" about Obsidian Student's experience because both of them had been in programs.
Problem is: Webcrawler seems to have hated his experience, Obsidian Student found his---not perfect---but overall helpful and positive.
So either these are different experiences or (as is more common here in true-believer-land) anyone who thinks his experience was good must be brainwashed, evil, "just wait for another year and you'll see the light", etc, etc, etc.
Obsidian Student's posts seem pretty balanced and reasonable to me...especially compared to some other posters. He's 6 years post program---if he was going to have some great revelation there's a good chance he would have had it by now
You might just as easily argue that given another year or two Webcrawler or any number of the negative types here could have a revelation that their program was really good. Now how likely it that to happen?
"
Oh please do tell us what your experience is oh "positive one". After 13 years of trying to forget about the place I was in, it all came back to me during a traumatic event.
And to be honest I too supported boot camps, etc. until a few years ago when I started learning about all the bad things happening. I had no clue, I thought the program I was in was the end all and be all of bad programs. I was wrong and I have since learned there are many more out there.
Post by: Anonymous on July 21, 2005, 11:12:00 AM
The guy who's supposed to have a violent temper, I forgot his name, who they showed helping the little ADD kid up from the ground...they made this out to be some sort of transformation, when it's NOT. This show is so stupid. They made it sound like he's never liked anyone or showed the slightest bit of kindness ever his entire life.....until now....the breakthrough thanks to SAGEWALK. This is sickening.
The fact that they encourage the kids to go off on each other by sitting there silently letting them confront each other. Plus it's similar to what the field people say to them too so they know it's looked up to. And they want to get out of there so there's pressure to do what is wanted. Then they come in and say..this is sagewalk, we talk things out etc etc. What about the molested girl? Should she go talk to the person that molested her and put herself in danger. Again, this so is SO stupid.
And who was that kid they only showed once, crying during individual counseling? And they kept saying, this is going to be really hard for him, he's sensitive etc. Well....maybe he shouldn't be there then! Why keep him if he's maybe too sensitive? (And why do they have that little ADD kid there!! He's a KID and he has a biological disorder!!) And more importantly, why don't they ever show him?? Probably because he makes everyone look bad because he's obviously not a bad kid. Not that the rest are abnormal, but with him I bet it's undeniable.
My last complaint, is that they are teaching them through the dumb hikes that...nobody will be there to help you out. That's what they kept saying. What kind of a horrible, screwed up lesson is that to teach a bunch of kids. God.
Post by: webcrawler on July 21, 2005, 11:19:00 AM
If anything I hope the supporters and opposers of this place can at least come to a common ground on one issue. The issue being that the children should not be exploited on national television for entertainment purposes.
We already can see the mind set of at least one viewer with the insensitive remarks regarding a client being molested.
Post by: Anonymous on July 21, 2005, 11:34:00 AM
It is completely wrong to use these kids and their emotional work as entertainment or even information.
There is no place in a civilized society for televlsing this kind of show.
The whole program these kids are in is experiential anyway, how stupid is it to think that people can get anything good out of it by passively watching it?
I hear people say that at least it acquaints parents with possible options but that's just not good enough. You can't ethically take away a kid's privacy like that for the sake of some other family's potential gain later, it just isn't right
I'm completely for good wilderness programs and therapeutic schools as I've said to Webcrawler and other already--- I've seen good ones, seen good almost miraculous results in terms of personal growth, maturity, forgiveness---so I absolutely do not buy into the party-line here that the only good program is an out-of-business program.
That does not excuse televising Brat Camp
Post by: Anonymous on July 21, 2005, 11:36:00 AM
Then the stupid parent who said "I heard that my daughter's drug test was positive for cocaine..." What does she mean, she HEARD? Don't they get copies of medical forms, and tests that they surely PAID FOR?
Post by: Anonymous on July 21, 2005, 11:43:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on July 21, 2005, 11:49:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on July 21, 2005, 01:48:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on July 21, 2005, 01:52:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on July 21, 2005, 02:00:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-21 08:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
I'm completely for good wilderness programs and therapeutic schools as I've said to Webcrawler and other already--- I've seen good ones, seen good almost miraculous results in terms of personal growth, maturity, forgiveness---so I absolutely do not buy into the party-line here that the only good program is an out-of-business program.
That does not excuse televising Brat Camp
Wow! I wish you'd pick a username and use it. This is such an unexpected and interesting take on the issue in the context of your other posts. But I can't comment on that w/o busting out your ID.
Anon, I'd be willing to put some time into this if you're game. If you pick a username, I can reassign selected posts to it.
I'm a PATRIOT because I believe in the nations ability to un-fuck itself.
--Nihilanthic
Post by: Anonymous on July 21, 2005, 02:13:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-21 08:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"That does not excuse televising Brat Camp"
Ok so what sort of counselors decide to participate in something like this that IS televised?? I'd say it's a big ole red flag as far as their professionalism goes.
Post by: Anonymous on July 21, 2005, 02:21:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-21 10:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Hey I want to respond to all who are attacking the show and camp and parents. I am a licensed counselor. We adopted a child from the Ukraine when he was 7. He is now 15 and puts us through continual hell. Our desire has always to give him a loving home. Prior to getting married and having kids I went through counseling to deal with a very dysfunctional past. I live a good and productive life. I chose to work on myself not balme parents. I have an 18 year old, also adopted who has done well and is going to college on a scholarship. We have tried everyhing with the 15 year old, counseling for us and him, conferences etc. I would give anything to know how to help him. It is so easy for ya'll to sit and judge when you are not in our shoes!!!! "
OK first of all adopting a kid, who's *seven years old* (as opposed to a baby), from a *foreign country* and not expecting a TON of work ahead seems a bit naive. God can you even imagine the sorts of feelings he must have that he doesn't belong?? And you say that you decided to work on yourself and not blame your parents...why then are you blaming this *child*?? Are you expecting more from a child than you do from two grown adults?? Maybe you should apply whatever you did with your parents to him as well, mmmm? Keep providing positive reinforcement, keep trying to communicate with him, don't start to blame him for your feelings and decide to ship him off to some strangers. He's just a CHILD.
Post by: Antigen on July 21, 2005, 02:24:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-21 10:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
I would give anything to know how to help him. It is so easy for ya'll to sit and judge when you are not in our shoes!!!!
Why do you assume that we're not in your shoes? Ok, so I never adoped any kids. They're all mine, flesh and blood, till death do us part. And I can imagine (and observe) that adoption creates some difficult issues. But it's not the only circumstance that can create similarly difficult issues.
In my case, it's the other way around. For a couple of years, our older daughter (now 21) seemed to do all she could to turn our hair gray early. It's our middle daughter who usually does all we expect of her, makes decent calls for herself most of the time and is the good, reliable, responsible kid.
I can't stress this enough. If I didn't know better, I probably would have thought some tough boot camp or other intensive coerced therapy looked pretty good. But I do know better. I lived it; was immersed in it, in fact, from around the age of 6 (see my sig for explanation)
Over and over again, we see programs promise, and parents hope for, something which can never and should never be. They want their disturbingly wild young adult offspring to be transformed back into the maliable, obedient, dependent little child they used to love. I'm sorry if you find it offensive, but that's just a sick notion!
Are you a religious person? The Judeo/Christian mythology offers a pretty good parable in the Prodigal Son. I'm told that almost every other popular religion down through the ages has a similar morality tale.
All kids grow up. Some tend to agree w/ much of their parents' world view and they get along just fine. Some don't. Only time will tell who's right or wrong in that situation. Just have a little patience and faith in your kid. They'll figure things out one way or another. And, very likely, the sooner you quit trying to control and manipulate them, the quicker they can get to figuring themselves out w/o the distraction of fighting you.
Allow the President to invade a neighboring nation whenever he shall deem it necessary to repel an invasion, and you allow him to do so whenever he may choose to say he deems it necessary for such purpose, and you allow him to make war at pleasure. Study to see if you can fix any limit to his power in this respect, after having given him so much as you propose. If today he should choose to say he thinks it necessary to invade Canada to prevent the British from invading us, how could you stop him? You may say to him,--"I see no probability of the British invading us"; but he will say to you, "Be silent: I see it, if you don't."
--Abraham Lincoln
Post by: Anonymous on July 21, 2005, 05:06:00 PM
Whadda ya gonna do Antigen--- the world is going beyond you---this series is going to fill and over-fill the programs you hate---as parents find out about them---and you can just keep preaching to the aging-hippie--drug-infested-permissive parenting choir that shares a a self-serving interest in believing that kids will be kids and adults have no say or responsibility in the (often tragic) outcome
Post by: Anonymous on July 21, 2005, 05:08:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on July 21, 2005, 05:14:00 PM
Making sure to work on communication with your kids and not ship them off. Making sure that your kids have a safe environment to explore the world, and themselves. Making sure your kids are treated with enough respect that they can learn who they really are, and grow to trust that they can take care of themselves. Making sure that your kids feel safe with expressing their feelings to you and not making them feel as though the only way to get across is to act out, or to simply give up on the relationship as a whole. Not pretending that your child's acting out is 100% their fault and that you are innocent and blameless.
To the poster about parental responsibility:
Grow UP.
Post by: Anonymous on July 21, 2005, 06:25:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-21 14:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Brat Camp must be reaching parents---and in a way that's pro-program---cuz there's an awful lot of disagreement with the corrent ant-program line on this board these days.
Whadda ya gonna do Antigen--- the world is going beyond you---this series is going to fill and over-fill the programs you hate---as parents find out about them---and you can just keep preaching to the aging-hippie--drug-infested-permissive parenting choir that shares a a self-serving interest in believing that kids will be kids and adults have no say or responsibility in the (often tragic) outcome
"
Guess again Anon. Brat Camp has done more to hurt the image of wilderness therapy than any aging hippie or drug infested permissive parent (as you call them) could ever do.
Why?
Because it has opened Pandora's Box.
Millions of people are now seeing what happens to the children of "troubled" parents. They end up on television being exploited by their own parents and an industry that thrives on treating adolescence as an epidemic.
Barbe
TAUSA
Post by: Antigen on July 21, 2005, 06:30:00 PM
It is the absolute right of the state to supervise the formation of public opinion.
--Joseph Goebbels
Post by: The Liger on July 21, 2005, 09:23:00 PM
Post by: hurleygurley on July 22, 2005, 03:04:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on July 22, 2005, 05:08:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-07-21 15:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
Guess again Anon. Brat Camp has done more to hurt the image of wilderness therapy than any aging hippie or drug infested permissive parent (as you call them) could ever do.
Why?
Because it has opened Pandora's Box.
Millions of people are now seeing what happens to the children of "troubled" parents. They end up on television being exploited by their own parents and an industry that thrives on treating adolescence as an epidemic.
Barbe
TAUSA
"
I wish I could share your optimism. This show doesn't have its own forum but the response on the ABC Family message board for the original Brat Camp at RedCliff Ascent was overwhelmingly supportive. There were a few negative posts but even when people who had actually been there told their stories people just said they were lying and refused to believe that a TV company would sink to such depths.
Post by: Anonymous on July 22, 2005, 06:47:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-07-22 00:04:00, hurleygurley wrote:
"I've been collecting as much hard data on all the program issues. I'm wondering how you found out there was an increase in Redcliffe enrollment after British airing. I'd like to track the impact of these shows and the book by Dave Marcus. I'm still horrified by ongoing impact of that book."
A parent on the ABC Brat Camp forum said she tried to get her child into RedCliff Ascent but couldn't due to a six-month waiting list because the show had just been aired in Britain. I am not sure if the post is still there. They seem to be deleted after a while.
Post by: Anonymous on July 22, 2005, 06:56:00 AM
Quote
I'm still horrified by ongoing impact of that book
Why not write a review on Amazon giving an alternative point of view? Straight survivors have done it with Miller Newton's books. And why stop at Amazon? Other people sell books online too, like Barnes and Noble.
Post by: Anonymous on July 22, 2005, 09:19:00 AM
It's one thing to think that it's a mistake for parents to be impressed by Brat Camp.
It's quite another to try and pretend that the response to it has been anything but overwhelmingly positive----as she lamely tries to say a few posts back
First thing anyone who wants to change a situation has to do is to FACE THE FACTS: that includes parents with a kid in trouble or a TAUSA-type who is now faced with a social phenomenon that looks likely to swamp her small anti-program boat.
The funniest part of Barbe's post was the bit about parent now being made aware that kids in programs will end up on TV!!!
Oh c'mon Barbe--you are really grasping at straws aren't you? People are not as stupid as you evidently think---they will realize that in this SPECIFIC case the parents for whatever reason agreed to have their kids'program televised.
Nobody with half a brain is going to think that wilderness programs are now going to automatically be televised without specific parental consent.
Yeh the Marcus book and now Brat Camp... wilderness and therapeutic programs are definitely going mainstream---and while they may not be portrayed as perfect (they shouldn't be)...it's going to be damned hard for Barbe and company to keep up the black and white demonizing--- and not come off looking like rabid, unreasonable---and irrelevant
Post by: OverLordd on July 22, 2005, 09:43:00 AM
SHUT THE FUCK UP!!! :evil: :evil: :evil:
I know for a fact that other programs have groups that they record.
You people are a bunch of hypocrites, calling us close minded and hateful, while you are a bunch of right suppressing Nazis on Steroids....
Bastards...Hypocrites... liars!!! :evil: :evil:
SHUT THE FUCK UP BEFORE I DECIDE ITS WORTH THE FUCKING EFFORT TO HURT YOUR FAMILY.
Post by: Anonymous on July 22, 2005, 11:25:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-07-22 06:19:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The Barbe chick from TAUSA should grow up and get real.
It's one thing to think that it's a mistake for parents to be impressed by Brat Camp.
It's quite another to try and pretend that the response to it has been anything but overwhelmingly positive----as she lamely tries to say a few posts back
First thing anyone who wants to change a situation has to do is to FACE THE FACTS: that includes parents with a kid in trouble or a TAUSA-type who is now faced with a social phenomenon that looks likely to swamp her small anti-program boat.
The funniest part of Barbe's post was the bit about parent now being made aware that kids in programs will end up on TV!!!
Oh c'mon Barbe--you are really grasping at straws aren't you? People are not as stupid as you evidently think---they will realize that in this SPECIFIC case the parents for whatever reason agreed to have their kids'program televised.
Nobody with half a brain is going to think that wilderness programs are now going to automatically be televised without specific parental consent.
Yeh the Marcus book and now Brat Camp... wilderness and therapeutic programs are definitely going mainstream---and while they may not be portrayed as perfect (they shouldn't be)...it's going to be damned hard for Barbe and company to keep up the black and white demonizing--- and not come off looking like rabid, unreasonable---and irrelevant
"
LOL Anon, worried about your cash cow drying up?
Barbe
TAUSA
Post by: Anonymous on July 22, 2005, 01:30:00 PM
j
Post by: OverLordd on July 22, 2005, 01:35:00 PM
Lets see your Eagle Scout Rank
Lets see your High school Graduation with highest honors
Lets see your National Honor Socity Membership
Lets see your job in a interstate software bussiness when you were still a minor...
yeah... im 17, but I have already acomplished more than you ever will.[ This Message was edited by: OverLordd on 2005-07-22 10:35 ]
Post by: Anonymous on July 22, 2005, 01:51:00 PM
J
Post by: Anonymous on July 22, 2005, 01:54:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on July 22, 2005, 01:59:00 PM
J
Post by: Anonymous on July 22, 2005, 02:02:00 PM
You seem to be overlooking the fact that OverLord's kissing of your ass (what your asking him to do) won't change anything here. He doesn't work for you. This is the internet if you haven't noticed. I will agree threatening others is not cool, but what you're suggesting is just as not cool. And BTW---the way you spoke to him was anything but diplomatic. Telling someone they will never amount to anything is not constructive criticism, God. I hope I never meet you, let alone work for you.
Post by: Anonymous on July 22, 2005, 02:07:00 PM
:wink:
Post by: Anonymous on July 22, 2005, 02:11:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-22 10:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Did I tell you I work for a huge corporation? Aren't you impressed? You should be. Not only do I get up each morning to slave away to make higher-ups 200 times my own salary, I am newly single because my husband couldn't stand me. Life is good. That is why I come on Fornits to bash young seventeen year olds. I feel so much beter.
J"
Yeah.... :lol:
Post by: Antigen on July 22, 2005, 02:19:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-22 10:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
That's what teenagers are good at. Manipulation.
Really? How do they get so good at manipulation at such a young age? And what happens between the teenage years and parenthood to make them (you) so inept as to be mastered by such a young, inexperienced kid?
Isn't it fairly obvious that the adults in this drama are holding almost all the cards? And isn't it quite pathetic to watch them, over and over again, excuse their own horrible behavior by claiming they are helpless victims of children?
Fucking pathetic, if you ask me!
No drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of society. If we're looking for the sources of our troubles, we shouldn't test people for drugs, we should test them for stupidity, ignorance, greed and love of power.
Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)
return undef() if /coercion/i;
Post by: Anonymous on July 22, 2005, 02:29:00 PM
J
Post by: OverLordd on July 22, 2005, 02:40:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on July 22, 2005, 03:15:00 PM
YOU KNOW, YOU'VE POSTED QUITE A BIT ABOUT YOURSELF AT THIS SITE: YOUR AGE, WHERE YOU PLAN TO GO TO COLLEGE, WHERE YOUR FRIEND WENT TO SCHOOL, THE INDUSTRY YOU WORK IN, YOUR EMAIL AND ON AND ON AND ON; A WHOLE LOT ONCE A PERSON LOOKS INTO YOUR POSTS---WHICH YOU PUT INTO THE PUBLIC DOMAIN
YOU ARE NOT ANONYMOUS YOU LITTLE CREEP AND IF YOU START TRYING TO TERRORIZE PEOPLE--WELL MAYBE ITS TIME FEDERAL AUTHORITIES WHO MONITOR TERRORISTIC THREATS ONLINE THESE DAYS HAD A LITTLE TALK WITH YOU ABOUT YOUR TEMPER
HOW WOULD THAT IMPRESS YOUR EMPLOYERS BOY GENIUS TO HEAR WHAT YOU'VE BEEN SAYING HERE???
AND TO ANY PARENTS READING THESE THREADS: LOOK TO OVERLORDD AS AN EXAMPLE OF THE TYPE OF PERSON WHO HAS A PROBLEM WITH THESE PROGRAMS....ONE PROBLEM AMONG MANY THAT HE'S GOT APPARENTLY
Post by: Anonymous on July 22, 2005, 04:00:00 PM
thanks for the laughs.
Post by: Anonymous on July 22, 2005, 04:52:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-22 11:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Well, whoever wrote on my behalf, that was mature. I don't usually spend my time bashing a bunch of rebellious teens. It's just that I saw the show and wanted to do some research. I certainly didn't come on to bash "young seventeen year olds". You'll be happy to note that I won't be commenting any further, as I know you all don't want to hear any adult perspective. That's why you all hate Brat Camp. You hate authority. You assume I hate my job and have to kiss ass. You're wrong. You assume I'm an unlikable person. Wrong again. I actually work with dozens of teens who think I'm pretty cool. I'm honest with them, and I respect them. They, in turn, respect me. I think the teens here don't respect anyone, not even themselves. My husband? He likes me too. I'm sorry to realize there are many more teens like you all who make this world a much tougher place. You're probably bullies too, picking on people who aren't like you. Gee, thanks for making the way so much easier for teens who are coming in next. I was a teen too. You forget. You're too busy wrapped up in yourselves to realize that maybe there are some adults out here who actually give a shit. Please, write here in 5 years. I'd love to know how you're all getting along in real life. I'd love for you all to prove me wrong. You'll be in my prayers.
J"
Ha ha laughing my ass off...most of us on here ARE adults. Did you not understand this?? And why did you make that assumption?? I am 33 years old, no teenager and don't talk to me like I am one. How you've managed to convince yourself or anyone else that telling KIDS that they will never amount to anything is showing them respect is beyond me. And then to say that pointing that out to you is manipulation...Get a LIFE lady. I have a career, I have a degree, I have worked at my job for almost 10 years, and I would NEVER want to work for someone like you. And you know what?? [i}I don't fucking have to[/i]. But sorry I'm no teen at this place you work at who you can put down and make feel inferior. And don't bother praying for me either.
Post by: Anonymous on July 22, 2005, 04:56:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on July 22, 2005, 05:09:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-22 12:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
"JUST KEEP IT UP: FIRST AGAINST CSA NOW AGAINST THIS ANON WHO WASN'T EVEN TALKING TO YOU FOOL
YOU KNOW, YOU'VE POSTED QUITE A BIT ABOUT YOURSELF AT THIS SITE: YOUR AGE, WHERE YOU PLAN TO GO TO COLLEGE, WHERE YOUR FRIEND WENT TO SCHOOL, THE INDUSTRY YOU WORK IN, YOUR EMAIL AND ON AND ON AND ON; A WHOLE LOT ONCE A PERSON LOOKS INTO YOUR POSTS---WHICH YOU PUT INTO THE PUBLIC DOMAIN
YOU ARE NOT ANONYMOUS YOU LITTLE CREEP AND IF YOU START TRYING TO TERRORIZE PEOPLE--WELL MAYBE ITS TIME FEDERAL AUTHORITIES WHO MONITOR TERRORISTIC THREATS ONLINE THESE DAYS HAD A LITTLE TALK WITH YOU ABOUT YOUR TEMPER
HOW WOULD THAT IMPRESS YOUR EMPLOYERS BOY GENIUS TO HEAR WHAT YOU'VE BEEN SAYING HERE???
AND TO ANY PARENTS READING THESE THREADS: LOOK TO OVERLORDD AS AN EXAMPLE OF THE TYPE OF PERSON WHO HAS A PROBLEM WITH THESE PROGRAMS....ONE PROBLEM AMONG MANY THAT HE'S GOT APPARENTLY"
Oh for pete's sake .. if this isn't a classic example of why some parents feel compelled to lock their teens up, I don't know what is.
Get over yourself, Anon. No need to shout to try and win the war with a teenager who isn't even your own kid.
Grow up.
:smokin:
Post by: Anonymous on July 22, 2005, 06:25:00 PM
This little ass-wipe Overlordd is going around trying to threaten people and this anon slob says essentially "Oh let the poor little thimg express himself". And "Oh you're so mean because you shout and won't let poor little Overlordd be himself and rough up people".
Post by: Anonymous on July 22, 2005, 06:35:00 PM
And also why most of the slobs at this site got to be the way they are
And because misery loves company (I guess)they just cant stand the thought that some programs out there may help today's coddled spoiled tantruming brats shape up, take responsibility and maybe even amount to something. In spite of crummy parents who can't even stand up to their own kid
Post by: Anonymous on July 22, 2005, 07:11:00 PM
Please, mysterious program parent, continue. It's free entertainment at your expense.
Do you feel vindicated yet?
Post by: Anonymous on July 22, 2005, 07:17:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on July 22, 2005, 07:45:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-22 15:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"That's right anon Parents like that are the reason we need therapeutic schools: to undo the permissiveness.
And also why most of the slobs at this site got to be the way they are
And because misery loves company (I guess)they just cant stand the thought that some programs out there may help today's coddled spoiled tantruming brats shape up, take responsibility and maybe even amount to something. In spite of crummy parents who can't even stand up to their own kid
"
Stand up to their kid...by calling them names and acting like they're worthless? Yeah, I know how "assertive" you have to be to be emotionally degrading to others. It takes a very special kind of person. Why don't you stop being a hypocrite, and stop blaming them for everything and take a look at yourself. Or does it feel too good, deep inside, to make others feel disgusted with themselves. You are truly disgustING in the true sense of the word.
Post by: Anonymous on July 22, 2005, 08:27:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-22 15:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"That last post was ABSOLUTELY typical of an anti-program parent!
This little ass-wipe Overlordd is going around trying to threaten people and this anon slob says essentially "Oh let the poor little thimg express himself". And "Oh you're so mean because you shout and won't let poor little Overlordd be himself and rough up people".
"
No offense, but are you by any change a struggling parent? You know, a parent who is struggling to deal with sending your kid away to some locked boarding school or hellcamp in the woods?
If so, you really should consider finding a support group comprised of other struggling parents. I hear tell they love to gang up on teenagers who dare to challenge a parent's absolute right to abdicate their parental responsibility.
:silly:
Post by: AtomicAnt on July 24, 2005, 06:42:00 PM
Why each generation seeks to villify its children is beyond me. I'm 44 years old and remember the 1970s when I was a teenager. I watched the original Scared Straight (same director as the current Brat Camp). Back then, we had the same media hysteria about 'out of control teenagers,' increased sexual activity, increased drug use, the country is going to hell, yadda yadda. Yes, I went through 'wilderness therapy' (1975). I felt good for a little while, but it wears off.
The 'tough love' approach became a fad around the middle to late seventies and many states opened Boot Camps for delinquents. Most have closed them because they are expensive and don't work.
Now, private enterprise has found a way to sell the 'tough love' approach to parents and make a fast buck off other peoples' pain. It sucks. But what really bugs me is how parents and the media can be still be sold this outdated technology.
Personally, I find coercive programs intinsically wrong regardless of effectiveness. The ends does not justify the means and we are supposed to be a society that believes in free will and freedom of choice. Some kids need help, but force doesn't work and is just wrong. The one aspect of my own experience that sticks with me is the frustration and anger of having to endure attitudes and activities that I felt were wrong, but knew I could not even express my opinion without risk of punishment. I felt that was wrong then. I feel it is wrong now.
Yes, I have kids. No teens, yet.
Post by: Anonymous on July 24, 2005, 07:35:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-24 15:42:00, AtomicAnt wrote:
""...today's coddled spoiled tantruming brats..."
Why each generation seeks to villify its children is beyond me. I'm 44 years old and remember the 1970s when I was a teenager. I watched the original Scared Straight (same director as the current Brat Camp). Back then, we had the same media hysteria about 'out of control teenagers,' increased sexual activity, increased drug use, the country is going to hell, yadda yadda. Yes, I went through 'wilderness therapy' (1975). I felt good for a little while, but it wears off.
The 'tough love' approach became a fad around the middle to late seventies and many states opened Boot Camps for delinquents. Most have closed them because they are expensive and don't work.
Now, private enterprise has found a way to sell the 'tough love' approach to parents and make a fast buck off other peoples' pain. It sucks. But what really bugs me is how parents and the media can be still be sold this outdated technology.
Personally, I find coercive programs intinsically wrong regardless of effectiveness. The ends does not justify the means and we are supposed to be a society that believes in free will and freedom of choice. Some kids need help, but force doesn't work and is just wrong. The one aspect of my own experience that sticks with me is the frustration and anger of having to endure attitudes and activities that I felt were wrong, but knew I could not even express my opinion without risk of punishment. I felt that was wrong then. I feel it is wrong now.
Yes, I have kids. No teens, yet."
Bravo ... well said!
:nworthy:
Post by: Anonymous on July 24, 2005, 08:50:00 PM
Post by: SilmarilOne on July 27, 2005, 02:35:00 PM
god help us all"
roger waters 1994
Post by: Antigen on July 27, 2005, 03:38:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-24 15:42:00, AtomicAnt wrote:
Why each generation seeks to villify its children is beyond me.
They don't. At least not the way recent American generations have done.
Here's a good read on that:
Quote
At a time of decreasing youth crime what fuels the increasing incarceration and punishment of youth?
The fact that the Right is better positioned than the Left to take advantage of the alarmist anti-youth myths all sides circulate. The public and policymakers don?t know, and don?t care, that youth homicide and crime have fallen to their lowest levels in 30 years because their constituent interest groups, left to right, are busy fanning fears of youth to push their agendas. Progressives are outraged when U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft, former California Governor Pete Wilson, and their prosecutor-prison-industry allies inflame the press with false images of rising youth crime to advance draconian youth-crackdowns. But liberal-left political lobbies, culture critics, media, and program advocates (the same entities deploring society?s "criminalization of youth") also unconscionably exploit fears of youth and crime, violence, guns, drugs, and general dangerousness when it suits their purposes. Examples (of many):
Full Text: http://www.zmag.org/malesint.htm (http://www.zmag.org/malesint.htm)
If I am of the opinion that it is inexpedient to assign to the government the task of operating railroads, hotels, or mines, I am not an "enemy of the state" any more than I can be called an enemy of sulfuric acid because I am of the opinion that, useful though it may be for many purposes, it is not suitable either for drinking, or for washing one's hands.
Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)
return undef() if /coercion/i;
Post by: Anonymous on July 28, 2005, 01:28:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-07-14 11:19:00, Deborah wrote:
"
.... The parents can be lame, show no respect but expect it, neglect the kid's real needs, and then pay to have them tortured into compliance- to 'act' with respect.
This is undesirable authoritarian, top down, control; lauded as 'therapy'. The parents should be right there with the teens, sleeping in freezing weather, no hygiene, pathetic food, using a latrine, hiking with packs equal to 1/3 of their body weight, publicly divulging their wrongs. They are equally responsible for their kid's distress and skewed perceptions of reality, if not more so.
"
It's a theory that started with "Tough love". Parents don't understand how there actions are negatively effecting their children. By the time children start acting up, the parents start up with tough love and don't understand it's just more of the same in a dysfunctional family.
Giving children a reason to be paranoid, that's what happens when they are lied to enough, isn't a healthy responsible act by a parent. If the child is into drugs, how did they meet those type of people? Those children are going to have to change associates. Oh and it't usually not the people that THOSE types of parents are able to detect. Those types of parents will start accusing anyone they don't like of being a drug addict or drug dealer. Who could use the word of an over emotional lair. Then the parent will encourage there precious children to remain friends with the real drug dealers and real users, because the parents are such experts. That is what the friend's of THOSE types of parents consider them.
It's a shame because even when the children are officially adults at 18, if they are healthy they should leave home, they find out that they are still tied to their parents when they go for grants, scholarships, and federal loans. In the United States, parents have to sign in order for adults aged 18 through 25 to receive funding from the government, even if they don't live with the parents and haven't for years.
Post by: Anonymous on July 28, 2005, 11:17:00 PM
I read the article. It covers far to broad a range of issues for me to adequately address. As a middle-aged man with a family, I think I am a pretty worldly guy. I have been around kids all my life. I'm well traveled, well educated, and well read.
I agree that the period called adolescence has been getting longer in recent years. Many, if not most of my friends got married in their late teens - right after high school. That was normal in those days.
I also agree that as a kid, me (and my generation) were given more adult responsibility and more adult-like freedoms than kids today are. By the time I was nine I was: camping overnight with friends with no adults, on my own from school dismissal until parents got home, taking care of younger kids during that time, had a job (paper route), left home alone while mom went shopping, etc. By age 12, I had my first gun, had gone on extended away from home trips, driven trucks on farm land, and yes, smoked pot and drank a beer or two.
But at the same time, Kindergarden was a half day and included milk, cookies, and nap time. We had no day care or pre-school (moms stayed home). We learned to read in first grade at age 6. We did not have to make 'play dates.' We just walked to our friends houses and played with them. We had far fewer scheduled activities. Summers consisted of two months of largely unsupervised free play. In other words, we were allowed to be children.
I remember when my friend and I got our first car at age 16, his father threw us a box of condems and said, "Now that you have a back seat, you will need these." Yes, times have changed.
That was then. This is now. The country has swung way to the right. I see two trends. The right is too punitive, the left too over-protective. Kids are over scheduled, over burdened, and over pressured these days. It sucks. There was no such thing as ADHD in the 1970s. Boys (84% of kids diagnosed with ADHD are boys) were expected to be active, difficult, and sometimes get into fights. "Boys will be boys" after all.
BUT! I don't think teens are as competent as adults. There is a reason we don't let 13-year-old boys drive cars on the highways. I also do not think kids should EVER be charged and tried as adults. To me, it is not about whether they know right from wrong. They do. What they don't know is how to navigate the adult legal system. I think the cases of the Central Park Jogger, Michael Crowe, and the King brothers are good examples of this. What we don't want to do as a society is throw a young life away when that life can be turned around. I am against the longer/harsher sentences imposed on kids, too. When I was a teen and we got caught with pot or beer, the police just took us home and told our parents. We got grounded. We received lectures on the dangers of this behavour. We turned out just fine.
I agree with article that competency is more a function of the individual than of age, but we have yet to come up with something better than age. The Supreme Court mentioned this very issue in their recent ruling that no one under 16 may be executed. They said they needed to set an age limit which would in many ways be arbitrary, but no better determination exists. They chose 16 through a combination of child development research and international standards. Personally, I am opposed to the death penalty.
Whew! That was long winded.
Post by: Anonymous on July 28, 2005, 11:38:00 PM
I forgot add that I'm not backing down on my statement that 'each generation villifies its children.'
When growing up I saw Time magazine covers in the 1970s decrying the 'teen drug epidemic' and the 'national crisis' of 'teenage pregnancy.' I had do endure many an adult talk about 'kids these days...' Each generation of adults thinks the world is going to hell.
My Dad said the same thing happend in the 1950s when rock and roll was destroying the youth of America and turning them all into beatnicks. My Dad was born in 1930. He taught math in high school from 1953 to 1993. His opinion is that teens were just as nice in 1993 as they were in 1953 and saw no cause for alarm.
Post by: Anonymous on July 28, 2005, 11:42:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on July 28, 2005, 11:45:00 PM
Post by: Deborah on July 28, 2005, 11:52:00 PM
Why all the fear mongering in this country? Is it profitable? Yes.
We not only have a 'drug' crisis, we now have a 'mental health' crisis and untold numbers of kids are about to be dx and put on addictive and dangerous 'drugs' right in the midst of the 'war on drugs'.
I'm glad I was able to swing it so my kids could experience some of those very simple pleasures of being young and being human.
Post by: The Liger on July 29, 2005, 12:56:00 AM
But what's my point? Oh, they were fine, I am fine, and the crazy kids nowadays will be fine!
Post by: The Liger on July 29, 2005, 12:58:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on July 29, 2005, 07:55:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-07-28 21:58:00, The Liger wrote:
"P.S. I really did not appreciate the counselor on Brat Camp pointing out that the teenagers were testing their boundaries and acting as though that was a bad thing. Isn't that how teenagers become adults?
"
I wish people would tell me when Im pushing their buttons. If Im fucking with someone, I like knowing if Im doing it right or not - and not having to wait for a big blowup at the end!
Post by: Antigen on July 29, 2005, 12:54:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-28 20:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Antigen,
I forgot add that I'm not backing down on my statement that 'each generation villifies its children.'
When growing up I saw Time magazine covers in the 1970s decrying the 'teen drug epidemic' and the 'national crisis' of 'teenage pregnancy.' I had do endure many an adult talk about 'kids these days...' Each generation of adults thinks the world is going to hell.
My Dad said the same thing happend in the 1950s when rock and roll was destroying the youth of America and turning them all into beatnicks. My Dad was born in 1930. He taught math in high school from 1953 to 1993. His opinion is that teens were just as nice in 1993 as they were in 1953 and saw no cause for alarm."
Anon, I think we're pretty much on the same page here. It's hard to pinpoint exactly when this goulish anti-offspring trend really got started. But I think Males' explanation makes more sense than anything else I've heard. The hippy generation, the summer of love and all that was, in large part, about accepting others w/ love as brothers and siters in one big happy family. In other words, black boys having a decent shot at white girls. This scare the living SHIT out of people like my parents!
So they sent the 3 youngest of us to a private Christian school w/ one token black family out of about 350 or so. There were no less drugs, no less sex going on, no real difference at all, except that my parents seemed to enjoy the illusion of safety. Same thing w/ affluence, I think. Every year, my rich uncle would invite my mom and a few other close friends to go w/ his family to Martha's Vinyard. That was the only time I had the freedom, as a teenager, to just go biking all day or go out to a movie at night (w/ my red headed, exceptionally white) cousins.
Seems the more that each generation intigrates the non WASP cultures, the more frightened the WASPie older generation is of their own kids. I think the Summer of Manson propaganda-fest was largely allegorical. The 'establishment' wasn't really worried about their own kids coming back to kill them, personally, w/ knives. They were worried about their old guard culture being killed off. In other words, they were and are wimps who lack faith in their own blood and culture to measure up to and to survive whatever comes down the pike.
All religion is dumb. It's one big story they're feeding you so you'll behave on Earth. If there is a god, then he's a prick.
--Howard Stern, American radio personality
Post by: Deborah on July 29, 2005, 02:42:00 PM
All this labeling of 'attactment disorder' can be attributed to kids not having at least one parent present and involved. Being expected to be too independent too quick in areas they aren't developmentally ready for while simultaneously being expected to be dependent in areas they should be allowed independence.
And the Cat's In The Cradle...
Post by: AtomicAnt on July 29, 2005, 11:31:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-07-29 11:42:00, Deborah wrote:
"
Everyone has a different perspective on this. Mine is that it was largely due to both parents turning their attention and allegiance to work. They are stretched too thin to have the mental resource to have a meaningful relationship with their kids. They drag their ass in from work, everyone sits down for a fast-food meal (at best) and then the kids are put to bed. These kids are lucky if they get 15 minutes of their parents undivided attention. Many from birth on.
All this labeling of 'attactment disorder' can be attributed to kids not having at least one parent present and involved. Being expected to be too independent too quick in areas they aren't developmentally ready for while simultaneously being expected to be dependent in areas they should be allowed independence.
And the Cat's In The Cradle...
"
You sum it up quite well.
But I thought that 'attachment disorder' is a myth and 'attachment therapy' has been discredited in the established psych community.
Post by: Deborah on July 30, 2005, 02:01:00 AM
Here's a very popular university program in Texas. Getting good reviews.
http://www.healthyplace.com/Communities ... dren_1.asp (http://www.healthyplace.com/Communities/Bipolar/news_2005/children_1.asp)
While I dislike psych labels, and all they imply, there is undeniably a problem for some kids who, bottomline, haven't been loved and respected; therefore lack the ability to love and respect themselves or others. That's the simple explanation, as I see it.
Ever read the monkey research? Their biological mother was replaced with a wire-mesh, mechanical 'mother' that delivered milk without warmth and affection. They were deprived of love and touch. They could not care for their offspring. How could they? You can't know what you haven't learned/experienced. They were violent, refused to feed and nurture them.
When I first read the TCU article what really struck me was that people are actually in these classes learning, among other things, how to give nurturing touch. The masses are in a sad state.
Post by: Anonymous on July 30, 2005, 02:22:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-07-29 20:31:00, AtomicAnt wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-07-29 11:42:00, Deborah wrote:
"
Everyone has a different perspective on this. Mine is that it was largely due to both parents turning their attention and allegiance to work. They are stretched too thin to have the mental resource to have a meaningful relationship with their kids. They drag their ass in from work, everyone sits down for a fast-food meal (at best) and then the kids are put to bed. These kids are lucky if they get 15 minutes of their parents undivided attention. Many from birth on.
All this labeling of 'attactment disorder' can be attributed to kids not having at least one parent present and involved. Being expected to be too independent too quick in areas they aren't developmentally ready for while simultaneously being expected to be dependent in areas they should be allowed independence.
And the Cat's In The Cradle...
"
You sum it up quite well.
But I thought that 'attachment disorder' is a myth and 'attachment therapy' has been discredited in the established psych community.
"
No attachment theory is alive and well. It's behind a lot of other theories too. Especially family therapies.
Post by: AtomicAnt on July 30, 2005, 09:11:00 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/07/29/baseb ... index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/07/29/baseball.bat.killing/index.html)
Youth sentenced to detention center in baseball bat killing
Boy, 13, ordered to stay in facility till age 25
Friday, July 29, 2005; Posted: 12:18 p.m. EDT (16:18 GMT)
Brian Rourke, talks to reporters after the sentencing of a 13-year-old convicted in the killing of his son,
Jeremy Rourke.
LOS ANGELES, California (CNN) -- A 13-year-old boy convicted of beating his friend to death with a baseball bat
was sentenced Thursday to a youth detention facility until he is 25 years old, although he could be paroled
before then.
"Watching my son die in front of my face was devastating," the victim's father, Brian Rourke, told the court. "My
son, Jeremy (Rourke), was killed for teasing another kid."
Rourke said he and his son were "best friends."
The convicted teen, whose name is being withheld because he is a juvenile, was found guilty of second-degree
murder after beating Rourke in the knee and head with an aluminum bat after a youth game.
The young teen's feet were shackled during the disposition hearing, and he sat quietly.
Superior Court Judge Richard Naranjo imposed the maximum sentence. Under California law, children under 14 cannot
be tried as adults. The hearing was open to the media.
The attack followed an argument after a Pony League baseball game in Palmdale, California, about 40 miles
northeast of Los Angeles. The suspect was described as a well-liked boy with no criminal record.
Defense attorney William McKinney argued that Rourke was relentlessly bullying the younger boy before the attack,
and said his client had merely taken "the wrong path."
However, prosecutors contended the older boy was merely teasing him.
"We cannot take the chance in the future that he will display that behavior," said prosecutor Lonnie Felk.
Witnesses said the 13-year-old's team had just lost its first game of the season, and he was getting in line at a
snack bar when he and Rourke got into some sort of scuffle. Some witnesses said there was a dispute between the
teens over their place in line; others said Rourke teased the suspect over the loss.
A psychologist described the younger boy as "well-socialized," a good student and "compliant with authority."
Baseball coach Allen McBroom, who has known the convicted teen for five years, fought back tears as he said the
child was the kind of polite boy he liked his son to pal around with.
CNN Producer Sara Weisfeldt contributed to this report.
---------------------------------------------
I post this, because I don't know what to think of it. Murder is serious, but was this an isolated accident due to loss of control? Is the sentence the best thing for the kid and society? I would rather see him graduate from college at 25 than walk out of a prison a hard core ex-con.
Probably off-topic. Sorry.
Post by: Anonymous on July 30, 2005, 10:16:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-07-30 06:11:00, AtomicAnt wrote:
"Another young life thrown away:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/07/29/baseb ... index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/07/29/baseball.bat.killing/index.html)
Youth sentenced to detention center in baseball bat killing
Boy, 13, ordered to stay in facility till age 25
Friday, July 29, 2005; Posted: 12:18 p.m. EDT (16:18 GMT)
Brian Rourke, talks to reporters after the sentencing of a 13-year-old convicted in the killing of his son,
Jeremy Rourke.
LOS ANGELES, California (CNN) -- A 13-year-old boy convicted of beating his friend to death with a baseball bat
was sentenced Thursday to a youth detention facility until he is 25 years old, although he could be paroled
before then.
"Watching my son die in front of my face was devastating," the victim's father, Brian Rourke, told the court. "My
son, Jeremy (Rourke), was killed for teasing another kid."
Rourke said he and his son were "best friends."
The convicted teen, whose name is being withheld because he is a juvenile, was found guilty of second-degree
murder after beating Rourke in the knee and head with an aluminum bat after a youth game.
The young teen's feet were shackled during the disposition hearing, and he sat quietly.
Superior Court Judge Richard Naranjo imposed the maximum sentence. Under California law, children under 14 cannot
be tried as adults. The hearing was open to the media.
The attack followed an argument after a Pony League baseball game in Palmdale, California, about 40 miles
northeast of Los Angeles. The suspect was described as a well-liked boy with no criminal record.
Defense attorney William McKinney argued that Rourke was relentlessly bullying the younger boy before the attack,
and said his client had merely taken "the wrong path."
However, prosecutors contended the older boy was merely teasing him.
"We cannot take the chance in the future that he will display that behavior," said prosecutor Lonnie Felk.
Witnesses said the 13-year-old's team had just lost its first game of the season, and he was getting in line at a
snack bar when he and Rourke got into some sort of scuffle. Some witnesses said there was a dispute between the
teens over their place in line; others said Rourke teased the suspect over the loss.
A psychologist described the younger boy as "well-socialized," a good student and "compliant with authority."
Baseball coach Allen McBroom, who has known the convicted teen for five years, fought back tears as he said the
child was the kind of polite boy he liked his son to pal around with.
CNN Producer Sara Weisfeldt contributed to this report.
---------------------------------------------
I post this, because I don't know what to think of it. Murder is serious, but was this an isolated accident due to loss of control? Is the sentence the best thing for the kid and society? I would rather see him graduate from college at 25 than walk out of a prison a hard core ex-con.
Probably off-topic. Sorry."
This kid is very very lucky.
In South Carolina, another 13 year old boy on 2 types of pychotropic drugs heard voices and killed his grandparents.
HE GOT A LIFE SENTENCE. No possibility of parole.
Damn Amerika. Protect the drug companies. No, it wasn't the drugs, they say. Well guess what?
It was.
Post by: Anonymous on August 02, 2005, 08:37:00 PM
Without a way to prove the effects of these medications, it would be almost impossible the child above who murdered the other child wouldn't have done it if he weren't taking the medication. I think every human being is capable of murder, so the question is, do these medications bring that dark instinct to the surface quicker?
Hopefully we'll have an answer soon.
Post by: Anonymous on August 02, 2005, 09:01:00 PM
Post by: AtomicAnt on August 02, 2005, 09:27:00 PM
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On 2005-08-02 18:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
"was the kid on psychoactive drugs? if so, which one/ones? kids have more pressures/distractions to deal with now more than ever. as much as we'd like to deny it, we are still creatures of instinct, and constant bullying can really push a kid over the edge. i'm not defending him, I think it's a tragedy what happened, and it's really sad, but now he's going to be locked away throughout his high school and college years, some of the most developmental times of his life, only to reemgere to reality 12 years later, pale and unprepared for the world. Does anyone know where he's going to serve his sentence? "
Was this just a freak accident due to the lack of impulse control a kid might have? It would seem a shame to incarcerate him for so long when a couple years of maturity might calm him down. There is no mention that he had a history of being violent.
Post by: Anonymous on August 06, 2005, 12:48:00 PM
As for kids not getting "a education," perhaps you should consider getting one yourseld, and having some idea what you're talking about, before trying to debate anything again in the future.
Post by: AtomicAnt on August 06, 2005, 03:16:00 PM
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On 2005-08-02 17:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I just hope one day they will develop the science or something where they can conclusively prove these medications negative effects. I feel like we are in the 50's and everyone is smoking ciggarettes, completely oblivious to the harm it's doing-- but instead of tobacco todays fad is prescription drugs. I've been at my low points and tried a few anti-depressants and anti-anxiety medication, I honestly didn't feel a thing. I just dont get it really.
Without a way to prove the effects of these medications, it would be almost impossible the child above who murdered the other child wouldn't have done it if he weren't taking the medication. I think every human being is capable of murder, so the question is, do these medications bring that dark instinct to the surface quicker?
Hopefully we'll have an answer soon."
What really bothered me about the twelve-year-old who killed his grandparents was that the judge refused to allow any mention of the drugs at his trial. The defense was not permitted to even mention the kid was taking medication! The boy states that his medication was helping him, but that his grandparents had given him a cold remedy that in conjunction with the medication caused a psychotic reaction. He described feeling that his skin was on fire and burning off of him and that he never felt that before or since. The medication he was on was one designed for adults, not children. It was prescribed by a pediatrician, not a psychiatrist.
The defense also pointed out that when the crime took place, the boy was 12 and weighed about 75lbs, but by the time he was tried, he was 6'2" weighed 160lb, was 15 and was brought into the courtroom wearing a prison uniform and in handcuffs and leg shackles. The defense argued that this certainly presented an unsympathetic image to the jury.