Fornits
General Interest => Tacitus' Realm => Topic started by: starry-eyed pirate on August 05, 2011, 09:39:31 PM
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...??
The economy is my enemy. It enables a few to control the many. It allows the wealthy few to usurp the natural rights of the many to the land.
If we learned anything from cybernetics didn't we learn that we're all in group and the best thing that anybody can do is to cop out ?!?!
What is the economy anyway ??? It's a form of slavery. The people should cry for their land rights not their jobs.
And I aint thankin any vets for my brainwash-freedom neither.
Peace.
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Once the people stop working the land for subsistence they become dependent on the group. Oil and energy companies own almost everyone. Cop out.
Trouble is, s'already too late. There's too many people to go back to the land now, even though sometime or another it seems to me that'll have to be the way.
The industrial revolution wasn't nothin good for us. People settled for the 40 hour week when they should have completely demolished the beast. Each family should be runnin they're own homestead, not demanding jobs and education.
How can we now redistribute the land ?? So that each adult has an acre of arable land to farm/work ?? That kind of connection to the Earth is essential in balancing the population. When people grow their own food and hunt or raise their own meat a sustainable balance is reached.
Copping out of the economy is hard to do, but the less one participates, thinks I, the better.
Better for the Earth, better for the environment, better for everyone...
Of course we'd still need doctors and scientists and such, so ... it aint easy... :roflmao:
But 2 of my friends were talking the other mornin, about this very subject, when one says to the other, "yeah, but I had a heart attack and wouldn't be alive if everybody were just homesteaders and there weren't any doctors."
Came the response, "you wouldn't ever have had the heart attack because you wouldn't be living this unhealthy lifestyle, where you sit at a computer most of the day and eat crappy frozen food from someplace your not sure of for dinner in front of the television which is constantly indoctrinating you into the money cult to keep you in servitude. You wouldn't have had it if you'd a been workin the land every day and living a good wholesome life, eating good healthy food that you grew yourself."
To which the other friend agreed. Cause he lives alone and eats too much fast food and smokes commercial cigarettes and stuff, or he did anyway, before the heart attack.
So of course, this doesn't eliminate the need for doctors and scientists. But it does begin to create a healthier idea of how to live well on the Earth. The more homesteading the better, says I. Let the economy crumble, it's a slave system anyway and if you were in one of the brainwash programs you should know that by your own experience.
O0 :soapbox:
Namaste
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Ask all the 60 somethings that were teenagers during the summer of love ('67) That tried sharing,communal living,going back to the land and all. It's a utopian pipe dream. People are just naturally greedy. That's why the cult of money and sucess is such a natural draw.Even for the "do-gooders",the more you,have the more you can give away.But sometimes you just have to throw up the white flag during the "monopoly" game and redistribute the property and money or the game's
over.Think about what that would lead to in real life.........
or maybe not
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Ask all the 60 somethings that were teenagers during the summer of love ('67) That tried sharing,communal living,going back to the land and all. It's a utopian pipe dream. People are just naturally greedy. That's why the cult of money and sucess is such a natural draw.Even for the "do-gooders",the more you,have the more you can give away.But sometimes you just have to throw up the white flag during the "monopoly" game and redistribute the property and money or the game's
over.Think about what that would lead to in real life.........
or maybe not
And what a Monopoly game it is!
This excerpt is from ~4-5 years ago, but probably pretty much still holds:
The World Distribution of Household Wealth: (http://http://www.mindfully.org/WTO/2006/Household-Wealth-Gap5dec06.htm)
Pioneering Study Shows Richest Two Percent Own Half World Wealth
Press Release
World Institute for Development Economics Research of the United Nations University
5 dec 2006
The richest 2% of adults in the world own more than half of global household wealth according to a path-breaking study released today by the Helsinki-based World Institute for Development Economics Research of the United Nations University (UNU-WIDER).
The most comprehensive study of personal wealth ever undertaken also reports that the richest 1% of adults alone owned 40% of global assets in the year 2000, and that the richest 10% of adults accounted for 85% of the world total. In contrast, the bottom half of the world adult population owned barely 1% of global wealth...[/list]
Full paper (http://http://www.wider.unu.edu/research/2006-2007/2006-2007-1/wider-wdhw-launch-5-12-2006/wider-wdhw-report-5-12-2006.pdf) as PDF (1,167kb)
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Us bottom halfers better not land on boardwalk. I wouldn't be surprised to see a return of debters prisons. What better way to make more slaves?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ha8ocu1U ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ha8ocu1UaWI&feature=related)
19:00-ecotechnics.
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Oh yes, umm, sorry for taking so long, as usual...At first I just wanted to take my time, but then some particular complications set in and well, you prolly know the story...in some form or another so anyway...
Thankyou everone for your responses. I disconnected the modem from my upstairs computer and took it downstairs so it could be hooked to the laptop, which is connected to my tv screen by a HDMI cord, so I can display my laptop screen on my tv. It's great for you tube, anyway...I hooked it all up and dialed up the link but was denied access because of some copyright infringement of some sort. I started to watch it once, upstairs, but it looked interesting and so I thought I'd wait till I had the time and energy to watch it in the living room on the tv, but I must'a' took too long...cause it's gone now and I didn't get to watch it, bummer...
Is there another way or anything, Ajax 13 ??
The Occupy Wall Street protesters are fools to think they should have their fair share of the slavery market. Cryin to their keepers for slaves of their own, when they should be outrightly rejecting the entire thing. Jobs and education is the whip and the chain.
What people need to know is how to grow their own food and nurture themselves and their families from the land and the sea in a sustainable way.
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Ask all the 60 somethings that were teenagers during the summer of love ('67) That tried sharing,communal living,going back to the land and all. It's a utopian pipe dream. People are just naturally greedy. That's why the cult of money and sucess is such a natural draw.Even for the "do-gooders",the more you,have the more you can give away.But sometimes you just have to throw up the white flag during the "monopoly" game and redistribute the property and money or the game's
over.Think about what that would lead to in real life.........
or maybe not
This is true, and they weren t the only ones who tried.. many well-meaning groups of Americans have tried it.. A group of transcendentalists, whom I admire quite a bit for the most part tried it as well.. It didn t last very long though.
In the end, trade is the fairest, best , most righteous way to do business.
If some people want to live on farms, and make everything they use themselves, that is their choice. But obviously, most do not or they would be doing it.. different groups of people specializing in different things, benefits everybody involved.
The cool thing about a capitalist society, is that anyone who wishes to operate in a manner, partially, or completely free of capitalism is pretty much unfettered. They can do as they choose.
In society's that are communistic or socialist, everybody has to play along with the same game. There are no options. And in order to maintain this type of society requires forceful governments that violate human rights according to American standards, and as well objective standards.
Paul St. John
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What people need to know is how to grow their own food and nurture themselves and their families from the land and the sea in a sustainable way.
It is worth mentioning that there is nothing in the world stopping you from doing that right now, but instead yo9u choose to be on a computer made by people who had jobs.
Paul
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Ask all the 60 somethings that were teenagers during the summer of love ('67) That tried sharing,communal living,going back to the land and all. It's a utopian pipe dream. People are just naturally greedy. That's why the cult of money and sucess is such a natural draw.Even for the "do-gooders",the more you,have the more you can give away.But sometimes you just have to throw up the white flag during the "monopoly" game and redistribute the property and money or the game's
over.Think about what that would lead to in real life.........
or maybe not
This is true, and they weren t the only ones who tried.. many well-meaning groups of Americans have tried it.. A group of transcendentalists, whom I admire quite a bit for the most part tried it as well.. It didn t last very long though.
In the end, trade is the fairest, best , most righteous way to do business.
If some people want to live on farms, and make everything they use themselves, that is their choice. But obviously, most do not or they would be doing it.. different groups of people specializing in different things, benefits everybody involved.
The cool thing about a capitalist society, is that anyone who wishes to operate in a manner, partially, or completely free of capitalism is pretty much unfettered. They can do as they choose.
In society's that are communistic or socialist, everybody has to play along with the same game. There are no options. And in order to maintain this type of society requires forceful governments that violate human rights according to American standards, and as well objective standards.
Paul St. John
Paul I grew up in a small town (actually it was a tri-town) we had a Regional H.S. made up of those three towns. There were 7 families that provided jobs for this county. Russos had a large chicken farm and processing plant, Holbertons had the produce, Hensons had the dairy and meats plus hogs, Cares had the timber and hay, Perraults had the potatoes, beans, tomatoes and peppers, the Lewis's owned the Drygood store and the Wrights owned the American Motors dealership. The orginal AT&T was coming through with the cross Atlantic phone lines, we still had textiles miles and sod growing was also beginning to take hold.
My name is John Wright (from facebook and these were my descendants).
I am talking about Washington County in Southern Rhode Island. The school is called Chariho. Native American name. Cha= Charlestown, ri= Richmond and ho= Hopkinton, Cha-ri-ho. We had a volunteer Ambulance and Firemen dept. Police were the State Police
We existed and subsisted because of each other, we enjoyed life and the Profits we made were enough. Capitalism cruelty had not yet come into our lives. But when it finally did it wiped out what I had known as a child in maybe two years.
My point was these were all Americans that were happy with their idea of "PROFIT". They were not greedy to the point of injuring others just to make a buck.
From 1974-1976 the Tyson Foods, Guidas dairy, Stop and Shop Foods, The EPA and many greedy politicians (who didn't even live in Washinton County) totally wiped off the face of the earth all 7 families accomplishments they had created over maybe 100 years.
The politicians and big business made it so we were dependent upon them. This is the point of suburbia with the food stores, Home depots, WallMarts and Malls. They pass ordnances in these sub-divisions so you can't even have a garden that will produce substance for a family.
We (the average citizen) are not benefiting from the World Trade Ass. or even are own trade here in America. Living in America is like Vegas and/or Wall Street it is all a bet and the cards are stacked against you. Middle class America is once again at a very bad disadvantage, we are loosing are clout. Take away the middle class (make us marginal) and you have a third world country, haves and the have-nots.
Gov't intentionally leaves us out of the conversation (remember 2008 when you found out about the historic collapse, did you feel like WTF, I did) Bankers/Banks walked away with cash, AIG, Investment Corps and Car manufacturers. They marketed and traded our homes like they place bets on the crap table. Our fucking homes (our private lives) they targeted a certain group of people and exploited them.
They have taken ours jobs to other countries so they could make more money, they take our jobs here and give them away to others so they can make more money. Then they say we won't do the jobs or we won't pay the extra cost if they use Americans. This is called propaganda. Say it long enough and people will be conditioned to believe it.
Have you looked a the price of sneakers and jeans of late, furniture ect....all these are made else where. $145.00 for a pair of Nike sneakers made in indo-china it cost NIKE a few dollars to make and ship back here.
This is not capitalism this is called wholesale pillaging. There are so many more examples.
There was a time when America made 90% of everything we consumed and we were doing just fine until Wall St. got greedy. !901, 1929, 1980's, 1990's, 2000's, 2010's.
What we need is another Theodore Roosevelt.
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"The technetronic era involves the gradual appearance of a more controlled society… dominated by an elite, unrestrained by traditional values… this elite would not hesitate to achieve its political ends by using the latest modern techniques for influencing public behaviour… Persisting social crisis, the emergence of a charismatic personality, and the exploitation of mass media to obtain public confidence would be the stepping-stones in the piecemeal transformation of the United States into a highly controlled society… In addition, it may be possible – and tempting – to exploit for strategic political purposes the fruits of research on the brain and on human behaviour. – Zbigniew Brzezinski, Between Two Ages: America’s Role in the Technetronic Era, 1970"
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php? ... &aid=27188 (http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=27188)
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Ask all the 60 somethings that were teenagers during the summer of love ('67) That tried sharing,communal living,going back to the land and all. It's a utopian pipe dream. People are just naturally greedy. That's why the cult of money and sucess is such a natural draw.Even for the "do-gooders",the more you,have the more you can give away.But sometimes you just have to throw up the white flag during the "monopoly" game and redistribute the property and money or the game's
over.Think about what that would lead to in real life.........
or maybe not
This is true, and they weren t the only ones who tried.. many well-meaning groups of Americans have tried it.. A group of transcendentalists, whom I admire quite a bit for the most part tried it as well.. It didn t last very long though.
T's a shame, says I, that it didn't last or catch on.
In the end, trade is the fairest, best , most righteous way to do business.
Trade can be fair or unfair, depends on the traders, what I'm meanin to say is that if you're not supplyin your own food, directly from nature, harvesting your own organic crops to take you through the winter, etc. then you're relyin on and payin money to someone else to do that for you, which in turn keeps you runnin on the wheel of some overlord or another exploiter, so you can go to the Wal Mart or Wegmans or whatever, to buy your groceries from around the world. The same goes for everything else you spend money on. The same principle is at work through-out...the economy. I'm not against righteous trade between locals, and I'm not entirely against the use of money altogether. I'm against the exploitation of the planet by self serving folks who think they can just take a shit on people and money will grow. And now this indiscriminate class of folks seems to have the reins and is misguiding the world into headlong misery.
If some people want to live on farms, and make everything they use themselves, that is their choice.
Yes, if only it were that simple. Because once your cut off from the land you are ripe for the exploitation by the moneyed and the landed. And once the chains are on you, it will be a long time getting back home. Complacent property ownership allows vacant lots in the hood to lie fallow, when they should be made into small farms to get the people off welfare. See what I'm gettin at ??
But obviously, most do not or they would be doing it.. different groups of people specializing in different things, benefits everybody involved.
Justice is unconcerned with the wants of the people. Secondly, most folks have been so thoroughly socially conditioned by the schools and the media, etc., that they will never have the clarity of mind to know what they really want anyway. However I agree that there will always be a need for particular specialists of different sorts, though it is not always a benefit to everyone involved. Capitalism practically requires the exploitation of some unaware fellow.
The cool thing about a capitalist society, is that anyone who wishes to operate in a manner, partially, or completely free of capitalism is pretty much unfettered. They can do as they choose.
I disagree, but maybe my experience is extreme. Just sounds like a load of doublespeak to me.
In society's that are communistic or socialist, everybody has to play along with the same game. There are no options. And in order to maintain this type of society requires forceful governments that violate human rights according to American standards, and as well objective standards.
:roflmao:...O yeah, thank God, In America, we live in a free society, that is justly represented by a righteous democratic-republican government that never uses force to maintain itself... :rofl: :poison: ...I refute it thus: Straight Inc.
Paul St. John
Thanks for responding Paul.
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What people need to know is how to grow their own food and nurture themselves and their families from the land and the sea in a sustainable way.
It is worth mentioning that there is nothing in the world stopping you from doing that right now, but instead yo9u choose to be on a computer made by people who had jobs.
Paul
This is an attack on me personally and has no bearing on my argument. My position is not that I live a moral or just life or that I'm not a hypocrite. It wouldn't matter if I were the president of IBM or the CEO of Google. Even the devil may speak the truth. ::evil::
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What people need to know is how to grow their own food and nurture themselves and their families from the land and the sea in a sustainable way.
It is worth mentioning that there is nothing in the world stopping you from doing that right now, but instead yo9u choose to be on a computer made by people who had jobs.
Paul
This is an attack on me personally and has no bearing on my argument. My position is not that I live a moral or just life or that I'm not a hypocrite. It wouldn't matter if I were the president of IBM or the CEO of Google. Even the devil may speak the truth. ::evil::
heh.. No.. Not an attack on you personally.. And I didn t mean to be rude cutting in, in my honest opinion, the idea such as yours are lacking a true perspective, and yet they are very prevalent, and in again, in my opinon, they are not only one of the biggest problems with our country, but whether or not these idea flourish, I think has a lot to do with teh future of our country, and resulatantly, the planet as a whole.
But just to be clear, before we go any further-
Is it your position, that you are in fact a hypocrite, who lives an immoral , unjust life?- just so we can get that out of the way right off the bat.
Even the devil may speak the truth.
Perhaps, if there were a devil, that would be the case, but either way, we have yet to establish that you are speaking the truth. My stance is that what you are speaking is utter nonsence
Paul
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Ask all the 60 somethings that were teenagers during the summer of love ('67) That tried sharing,communal living,going back to the land and all. It's a utopian pipe dream. People are just naturally greedy. That's why the cult of money and sucess is such a natural draw.Even for the "do-gooders",the more you,have the more you can give away.But sometimes you just have to throw up the white flag during the "monopoly" game and redistribute the property and money or the game's
over.Think about what that would lead to in real life.........
or maybe not
This is true, and they weren t the only ones who tried.. many well-meaning groups of Americans have tried it.. A group of transcendentalists, whom I admire quite a bit for the most part tried it as well.. It didn t last very long though.
In the end, trade is the fairest, best , most righteous way to do business.
If some people want to live on farms, and make everything they use themselves, that is their choice. But obviously, most do not or they would be doing it.. different groups of people specializing in different things, benefits everybody involved.
The cool thing about a capitalist society, is that anyone who wishes to operate in a manner, partially, or completely free of capitalism is pretty much unfettered. They can do as they choose.
In society's that are communistic or socialist, everybody has to play along with the same game. There are no options. And in order to maintain this type of society requires forceful governments that violate human rights according to American standards, and as well objective standards.
Paul St. John
Paul I grew up in a small town (actually it was a tri-town) we had a Regional H.S. made up of those three towns. There were 7 families that provided jobs for this county. Russos had a large chicken farm and processing plant, Holbertons had the produce, Hensons had the dairy and meats plus hogs, Cares had the timber and hay, Perraults had the potatoes, beans, tomatoes and peppers, the Lewis's owned the Drygood store and the Wrights owned the American Motors dealership. The orginal AT&T was coming through with the cross Atlantic phone lines, we still had textiles miles and sod growing was also beginning to take hold.
My name is John Wright (from facebook and these were my descendants).
I am talking about Washington County in Southern Rhode Island. The school is called Chariho. Native American name. Cha= Charlestown, ri= Richmond and ho= Hopkinton, Cha-ri-ho. We had a volunteer Ambulance and Firemen dept. Police were the State Police
We existed and subsisted because of each other, we enjoyed life and the Profits we made were enough. Capitalism cruelty had not yet come into our lives. But when it finally did it wiped out what I had known as a child in maybe two years.
But the thing is that capitalism only came into your lives, if you invited it in. Again, you are not forced to play.. Most likely many of these families saw incentives in embracing capitalism, and that is the reason that they invited in. Now, most change does come with some negative thngs as well.. Certainly traditions die.. but the fact of the matter is, that even if people did not like that, they still considered it an overall benefit to embrace capitalism, or they wouldn t have done it. Also, the argument could be made, that yours and the other families had been practicing capitalism all along, but as things get bigger, there are always more opportunity for the good guys, but the bad guys as well.. Computers, I think are used for many great things.. but they are also used for bad things.. Shall we all be deprieved of PCs, because of the reality of viruses, identity theft, online fraud, internet bullying, and internet predators?
My point was these were all Americans that were happy with their idea of "PROFIT". They were not greedy to the point of injuring others just to make a buck.
This is what I believe in- eexactly as you state above, and that is the principle behind capitalism, when it is parcticed properly. the problem is taht many things get blamed on capitalism, for which, it is not the cause.
From 1974-1976 the Tyson Foods, Guidas dairy, Stop and Shop Foods, The EPA and many greedy politicians (who didn't even live in Washinton County) totally wiped off the face of the earth all 7 families accomplishments they had created over maybe 100 years.
The politicians and big business made it so we were dependent upon them. This is the point of suburbia with the food stores, Home depots, WallMarts and Malls. They pass ordnances in these sub-divisions so you can't even have a garden that will produce substance for a family.
That is seriously fucked up.. and I am truly unhappy to hear that.. that, in my view is pure evil, and causes unnecessary pain to people who do not deserve it, but again, this is not capitalism... and also under any other economic system, this is the norm.. Most of the time, when you find problems with capitalism, you find government intervention.
We (the average citizen) are not benefiting from the World Trade Ass. or even are own trade here in America. Living in America is like Vegas and/or Wall Street it is all a bet and the cards are stacked against you. Middle class America is once again at a very bad disadvantage, we are loosing are clout. Take away the middle class (make us marginal) and you have a third world country, haves and the have-nots.
Whether or not that happens is up to us.
Gov't intentionally leaves us out of the conversation (remember 2008 when you found out about the historic collapse, did you feel like WTF, I did) Bankers/Banks walked away with cash, AIG, Investment Corps and Car manufacturers. They marketed and traded our homes like they place bets on the crap table. Our fucking homes (our private lives) they targeted a certain group of people and exploited them.
The government had NO right to do any of this.. but again, this goes against the principles of capitalism
They have taken ours jobs to other countries so they could make more money, they take our jobs here and give them away to others so they can make more money. Then they say we won't do the jobs or we won't pay the extra cost if they use Americans. This is called propaganda. Say it long enough and people will be conditioned to believe it.
Personally, I don't disagree with outsourcing. They were never "our" jobs to begin with.
Have you looked a the price of sneakers and jeans of late, furniture ect....all these are made else where. $145.00 for a pair of Nike sneakers made in indo-china it cost NIKE a few dollars to make and ship back here.
Two other factors to take into account are inflation, which, is again caused by anti-capitalistic actions taken by the government, and the supply/demand dynamic. People do not have to buy Nikes at that price. they could shop at Payless and teh price of Nikes would drop. They choose not to.. this is in the hands of the "consumer"
This is not capitalism this is called wholesale pillaging. There are so many more examples.
There was a time when America made 90% of everything we consumed and we were doing just fine until Wall St. got greedy. !901, 1929, 1980's, 1990's, 2000's, 2010's.
What we need is another Theodore Roosevelt.
Well, we definitly disagree on theTeddy Roosevelt-reference.. he sewed a lot of the seeds that led to today's problems..
I, too, would like to see America produce more. But it is worth mentioning, that the individual standard of living is far higher then in all these countries where most of the goods we purchased are prouced... Kinda interesting, ain't it?
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Paul, I am not against capitalism I own a small business myself. I am against what big business is doing to this country today. Oil company's, Banks, Wall St, Investment groups, China's trade surplus, WTA, WTO, Big pharma, WallMart. They are into a steroid capitalism. Just like a pro wrestler on steroids there are consequences which usually are very ugly.
I know you didn't like what happened in the last 4 years.
The only positive I actually saw out of the last few years, we lost a few TC's due to the economy (and reddits).
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I highly (the pun is always intended) recommend everyone on this thread read a few of these essays written by Aldous Huxley in 1958...
The whole thing is a good read that I think everyone here would appreciate...
In particular relevance to this thread, please check out the first three or four chapters:
http://www.huxley.net/bnw-revisited/index.html (http://www.huxley.net/bnw-revisited/index.html)
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Elizabeth Warren explains once again "paying it forward" for Big Business. Something specific American Entrepreneurs forget in their quest to make a profit.
This is what Teddy Roosevelt was talking about a 100 years ago when he was taking down Standard Oil, Carnegie, Railroads ect...
They didn't understand or forgot that they were as wealthy as they were do to America and the liberties America provided.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162- ... 03544.html (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20110042-503544.html)
Warren rejects the concept that it is possible for Americans to become wealthy in isolation.
"You built a factory out there? Good for you," she says. "But I want to be clear: you moved your goods to market on the roads the rest of us paid for; you hired workers the rest of us paid to educate; you were safe in your factory because of police forces and fire forces that the rest of us paid for. You didn't have to worry that marauding bands would come and seize everything at your factory, and hire someone to protect against this, because of the work the rest of us did."
She continues: "Now look, you built a factory and it turned into something terrific, or a great idea? God bless. Keep a big hunk of it. But part of the underlying social contract is you take a hunk of that and pay forward for the next kid who comes along."
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Carefull Danny. Next tey'll be calling you a communist (among all the other things).
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But just to be clear, before we go any further-
Is it your position, that you are in fact a hypocrite, who lives an immoral , unjust life?- just so we can get that out of the way right off the bat
What's it to ya ? My personal life is of absolutely no consequence to my argument. I'm hard on myself and I do the best I can and I'm not afraid of being called a hypocrite. My words speak for themselves.
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heh.. No.. Not an attack on you personally..
...uhh...yes it is. Separate the argument from it's source.
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Carefull Danny. Next tey'll be calling you a communist (among all the other things).
McCarthyism, is it making a comeback??
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Paul wrote:
Well, we definitly disagree on theTeddy Roosevelt-reference.. he sewed a lot of the seeds that led to today's problems..
I am talking about Theodore Roosevelt 26th President early 1900's WWI not his distant cousin Franklin Delano Roosevelt 32nd President early 1930's till mid 1940's WWII.
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http://front.moveon.org/the-most-awesom ... Q.facebook (http://front.moveon.org/the-most-awesome-99-image-weve-seen-all-week/#.TrHTsLRROxQ.facebook)
The Most Awesome 99% Image We've Seen All Week.
One thousand folks, one San Francisco beach, and one hard-to-ignore message.
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That sure is a pretty demonstration img. over Ocean Beach, but Solidarity managing to coordinate even a brief peaceful shut down of the port of Oakland sends a stronger message.
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I'm tired of being tormented to hell, that's what I'm tired of.
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But just to be clear, before we go any further-
Is it your position, that you are in fact a hypocrite, who lives an immoral , unjust life?- just so we can get that out of the way right off the bat
What's it to ya ? My personal life is of absolutely no consequence to my argument. I'm hard on myself and I do the best I can and I'm not afraid of being called a hypocrite. My words speak for themselves.
Because you are on a computer made by people with jobs, although, you are against jobs. I am making the point here, that embrace capitalism in action, while denying it in your word. That is in fact in hypocritical. And it seems to me that the majority of people with your viewpoint are exactly the same way.
Anyhow, the whole thing started out with me trying to make a point to you. I didn t at that point view it as an argument, but rather hoping you would see my point.
Paul
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heh.. No.. Not an attack on you personally..
...uhh...yes it is. Separate the argument from it's source.
LOL! uhhh.. No.. It wasn't.. It was a question. You opened the door to it. You said something without actually saying it, which is a very safe place to be.. You get to assume all the liberties of being immoral, hypocritical, and unjust, but none of the responsibilities.. I was trying to get you to say what you are saying, and to get you to face it yourself.. I could argue with you for the mere sake of arguing with you 'til the end of the world, but such things never breed results, in my experience, and amount to mental masturbation..
Paul
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Paul wrote:
Well, we definitly disagree on theTeddy Roosevelt-reference.. he sewed a lot of the seeds that led to today's problems..
I am talking about Theodore Roosevelt 26th President early 1900's WWI not his distant cousin Franklin Delano Roosevelt 32nd President early 1930's till mid 1940's WWII.
Yes.. Of course, I know that.. although FDR was no better with his New Deal.
Teddy's Anti-trust laws started from a bad premise. That premise is now very alive in everything today.
Paul
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It is worth mentioning that there is nothing in the world stopping you from doing that right now, but instead yo9u choose to be on a computer made by people who had jobs.
Paul
Is this a question ??
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I didn t ... view it as an argument, but rather hoping you would see my point.
Paul
Argument in the debating sense...
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heh.. No.. Not an attack on you personally..
...uhh...yes it is. Separate the argument from it's source.
LOL! uhhh.. No.. It wasn't.. It was a question. You opened the door to it. You said something without actually saying it, which is a very safe place to be.. You get to assume all the liberties of being immoral, hypocritical, and unjust, but none of the responsibilities.. I was trying to get you to say what you are saying, and to get you to face it yourself.. I could argue with you for the mere sake of arguing with you 'til the end of the world, but such things never breed results, in my experience, and amount to mental masturbation..
Paul
Well, you're being very general. I don't really know what you mean by all that, but thank you for getting me to face what I already know and ...yeah, thanks for that :roflmao:
Am I to understand then, that you live a just and moral life and are not a hypocrite ??
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I highly (the pun is always intended) recommend everyone on this thread read a few of these essays written by Aldous Huxley in 1958...
The whole thing is a good read that I think everyone here would appreciate...
In particular relevance to this thread, please check out the first three or four chapters:
http://www.huxley.net/bnw-revisited/index.html (http://www.huxley.net/bnw-revisited/index.html)
Thanks Froderik. I read through it a few sections but thats pretty long... might take a while...interesting...
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I would like put forth my economic feelings,
FUCK THE RICH. STORM THE BASTILLE. WE NEED MORE CAKE!
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It is worth mentioning that there is nothing in the world stopping you from doing that right now, but instead yo9u choose to be on a computer made by people who had jobs.
Paul
Is this a question ??
... O and what makes you think I'm not ?? Because, I am using a computer ?? or what ?? curious...
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heh.. No.. Not an attack on you personally..
...uhh...yes it is. Separate the argument from it's source.
LOL! uhhh.. No.. It wasn't.. It was a question. You opened the door to it. You said something without actually saying it, which is a very safe place to be.. You get to assume all the liberties of being immoral, hypocritical, and unjust, but none of the responsibilities.. I was trying to get you to say what you are saying, and to get you to face it yourself.. I could argue with you for the mere sake of arguing with you 'til the end of the world, but such things never breed results, in my experience, and amount to mental masturbation..
Paul
Well, you're being very general. I don't really know what you mean by all that,
If you would like to understand it, perhaps, you should read it again.. I think I have spelled it out pretty clear, and you seem more then intelligent enough to understand it if you try.
but thank you for getting me to face what I already know and ...yeah, thanks for that :roflmao:
Am I to understand then, that you live a just and moral life and are not a hypocrite ??
I strive to. If held under a microscope, you would find numerous imperfections in me. I am, of course, not perfect, but I think that you can make a generalization in this regard. There are many people whom I would refer to as just, moral, and having integrity( the opposite of hypocrite). I know that none of these perfect, but I would still say that.. If nothing else, it is true in relative terms, and understand by most what you are saying... Just the same as I will call Hitler, an evil man, even though he was very intelligent, and I consider intelligence to be a virtuous quality.
I would say Alex Rodriguez is a great baseball player, even though he has more then his fair share of strike-outs. warren Buffet is a great business man/ investor, in spite of the fact that he has made some bad ones.
As far as me, I do not steal, ever, under any circumstances. I do not physically assault others. In all situations, I try to do what I think is right, even when there is apparent reward to do the wrong thing, and unjust punishment for doing the right the right thing. I question myself frequently and my own principles.. Perhaps, most importantly, I am always striving to be moral, just, and act with integrity. I do my very best to.. I consider very difficult- sometimes, excrutiatingly so, but all the same, it constant intention in me, and I hold it as a ver high value. I would like to think that that allows me to fit within that general category, even though, I am very far from perfect.
Paul
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heh.. No.. Not an attack on you personally..
...uhh...yes it is. Separate the argument from it's source.
LOL! uhhh.. No.. It wasn't.. It was a question. You opened the door to it. You said something without actually saying it, which is a very safe place to be.. You get to assume all the liberties of being immoral, hypocritical, and unjust, but none of the responsibilities.. I was trying to get you to say what you are saying, and to get you to face it yourself.. I could argue with you for the mere sake of arguing with you 'til the end of the world, but such things never breed results, in my experience, and amount to mental masturbation..
Paul
Well, you're being very general. I don't really know what you mean by all that,
If you would like to understand it, perhaps, you should read it again.. I think I have spelled it out pretty clear, and you seem more then intelligent enough to understand it if you try.
but thank you for getting me to face what I already know and ...yeah, thanks for that :roflmao:
Am I to understand then, that you live a just and moral life and are not a hypocrite ??
I strive to. If held under a microscope, you would find numerous imperfections in me. I am, of course, not perfect, but I think that you can make a generalization in this regard. There are many people whom I would refer to as just, moral, and having integrity( the opposite of hypocrite). I know that none of these people are perfect, but I would still say that..
If nothing else, it is true in relative terms, and understand by most what you are saying... Just the same as I will call Hitler, an evil man, even though he was very intelligent, and I consider intelligence to be a virtuous quality.
I would say Alex Rodriguez is a great baseball player, even though he has more then his fair share of strike-outs. warren Buffet is a great business man/ investor, in spite of the fact that he has made some bad ones.
As far as me, I do not steal, ever, under any circumstances. I do not physically assault others. In all situations, I try to do what I think is right, even when there is apparent reward to do the wrong thing, and unjust punishment for doing the right the right thing. I question myself frequently and my own principles.. Perhaps, most importantly, I am always striving to be moral, just, and act with integrity. I do my very best to.. I consider very difficult- sometimes, excrutiatingly so, but all the same, it constant intention in me, and I hold it as a ver high value. I would like to think that that allows me to fit within that general category, even though, I am very far from perfect.
Paul
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Speaking of the economy, I must say as BS as it is, was it better under a feudal system...? or even under the traditional more historical marital system in which women were forced to marry for economical reasons.... ? There will always be the oppressed and oppressor and there are strengths and weaknesses of each time; but true freedom?
Can you protest when you are part of the chains that drag workers down? As Paul says, should you get to assume all the liberties of being immoral, hypocritical, and unjust, but none of the responsibilities? There is hypocrisy in all, but its a matter of degree and the effort to try and live a life of integrity. I would think instead of proud hypocrisy, one might endeavor to be fair and just. Regardless of "the Matrix."
Those who promote a Walden Life might first achieve it before they espouse it.
The economy sucks for many reasons. Greed, ignorance, and dwindling resources vs. growing occupants. Maybe we'll implode. Or maybe everyone will just smarten up. Necessity is the mother.... the mother fucker of us all.
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Samara wrote;
"Speaking of the economy, I must say as BS as it is, was it better under a feudal system...? or even under the traditional more historical marital system in which women were forced to marry for economical reasons.... ?
I'm sorry but women have been marrying for "economical reasons" since time began. And they show no signs of stopping anytime soon.
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Well...le's see...I don't know anyone who leads a just and moral life. If you drive a car, and import your food and other goods, like tools and clothes and furniture from halfway around the world you're not living justly. In fact, if that is the case, then you are stealing the worlds health and robbing future generations of their chance to lead a good and healthy life. I have a good friend who once told me, "Justice is not using anybody for anything, ever, period ". In other words, justice has no ego. The moral and the just are mostly invisible people, few and far between. I don't know a whole lot about the Amish, though I nearly finished a book about their history once. It seems to me though, that they do a pretty good job of living sustainably on the Earth. They don't use electricity and they don't drive cars(although they take rides) and they grow most of their own food. I know that they have some participation in the economy but I think it's minimal and I suggest that an Amish way of life or something akin to it, is the answer, sans religion.
What we have now is corporate feudalism. The schools main purposes are not true education, but social conditioning. Students learn the skills that will enable them to become part of the corporate power structure, instead of how to truly support themselves. They learn dependence not independence. Where are the schools that teach gardening and farming, leather work, metal smithing, hunting and fishing, and tailoring and carpentry, in addition to the 3 "R"s. The schools homogenize the population and make the people dependent on the economy and therefore submissive and easy to control.
I didn't mean to give the impression that I was proud of my hypocrisy, In fact I'm ashamed, but my shame doesn't prevent my honesty or my search for answers. I think that most Americans, if they're honest with themselves, will realize that they frequently trade justice for convenience.
I think the idea that one has to be free of hypocrisy in order to point out an injustice is just silly and immature and frankly egotistical.
I am not sure why I am being accused of assuming all the liberties of immorality, hypocrisy and injustice. You think I'm some kind of a nihilist or something ?? Far from it. My life is a work in progress and I do my best to live a conscientious life or as you put it, Samara, to live fair and just regardless of the matrix.
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Speaking of the economy, I must say as BS as it is, was it better under a feudal system...? or even under the traditional more historical marital system in which women were forced to marry for economical reasons.... ? There will always be the oppressed and oppressor and there are strengths and weaknesses of each time; but true freedom?
Can you protest when you are part of the chains that drag workers down? As Paul says, should you get to assume all the liberties of being immoral, hypocritical, and unjust, but none of the responsibilities? There is hypocrisy in all, but its a matter of degree and the effort to try and live a life of integrity. I would think instead of proud hypocrisy, one might endeavor to be fair and just. Regardless of "the Matrix."
Those who promote a Walden Life might first achieve it before they espouse it.
The economy sucks for many reasons. Greed, ignorance, and dwindling resources vs. growing occupants. Maybe we'll implode. Or maybe everyone will just smarten up. Necessity is the mother.... the mother fucker of us all.
I would hope that humanity has learned a little over the course of history (no need for any 'return to feudalism' or anything...next..)
Fiat currency, derivatives and all of that un-American bullshit has to go, for starters..
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What we have now is corporate feudalism. The schools main purposes are not true education, but social conditioning. Students learn the skills that will enable them to become part of the corporate power structure, instead of how to truly support themselves. They learn dependence not independence. Where are the schools that teach gardening and farming, leather work, metal smithing, hunting and fishing, and tailoring and carpentry, in addition to the 3 "R"s. The schools homogenize the population and make the people dependent on the economy and therefore submissive and easy to control.
:nods: :tup:
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None ya that is a pretty strong indictment against women. I don't know who your female friends are, but mine are hard working, educated, and often the bread winners. Some do it all - take care of kids and provide for our families. In fact, I don't have a single friend who married for money, or don't pull more than their fair share. I am proud of the women I know. They bring it.
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Fear of hypocrisy keeps the truth unspoken.
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... I suggest that an Amish way of life or something akin to it, is the answer, sans religion.
... and with some source of renewable energy, like solar.
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...or geo-thermal, where that is possible.
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They bring it.
That's what I'M talkin' about!! :nods: :rasta: :seg:
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...or geo-thermal, where that is possible.
I have heard only good things about the potential of geo-thermal.
Fuck the oil industry and its franken-food, plastic society.
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...easier said than done, my friend... :rofl: , but we are working on it.
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...easier said than done, my friend... :rofl: , but we are working on it.
Vote VERMIN SUPREME in 2012!!!
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:roflmao: O0
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It's a good thread though, except for none ya... :beat: ... :roflmao:
...LOL...o man. ...
No, but even just having to respond to criticism is helping me to refine my vision and examine my own life and situation...
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I also have this idea about making quadricycles, which would be a replacement vehicle for the modern car, with it's combustible engine. I mean why can't we make a pedal car (like we had when we were kids, remember??) out of lightweight metal that has 2 front seats and a supply bed for groceries and supplies, etc., and a set of pedals in front of each person, on the floor, so that either person could pedal the car. The pedals would have to have about 23 gears to get up to high speed or get up hills etc. but this would be a great adjustment, and do a lot to improve the world situation. They would have to have very lightweight metal frames, resembling a bicycle, but being a car. If it's cold out you might have to bundle up. If it's raining you throw on the top. People would be healthier and so would the whole planet. It's only a partial solution though because it wouldn't be too good on steep hills and would have some weight limitations too, but might work very well in flat areas or for localized gettin around. I don't know...hmm...
Now people will say, "O yeah, but people with jobs will have to build them". Fair enough. I'm not against people working together to build such things in a small localized community factory or something, as long as the job is not just about money, but serves a just purpose to the community and the world at once and doesn't require more than around 20 hours of job time per week or so. I'd think that'd be about the most a homesteader could reasonably spare...if that.
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Is that unrealistic ??
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Is that unrealistic ??
No more unrealistic than expecting women to stop marrying for money. And I never said ALL WOMEN.
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"Freedom to Fascism", a documentary by Arron Russo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUpZhhbKUBo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUpZhhbKUBo)
"Collapse" http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo ... __part_1_/ (http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/50078/Collapse__part_1_/)
"Food Inc" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvMtDRzqB6g (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvMtDRzqB6g)
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Well...le's see...I don't know anyone who leads a just and moral life. If you drive a car, and import your food and other goods, like tools and clothes and furniture from halfway around the world you're not living justly.
That's some statement alright. Care to explain why? I would say that If halfway around the world goods are being produced by people willing to part with them at a better price, giving your business to them is the JUST thing to do. The person who would go this direction of trading with those across the world has a just mind, and yet at the same time, justice in the truest sense cannot be even applied to this situation, because who you choose to trade you with, and what things you choose to purchase, and do with your earned money is your business! That is justice.
In fact, if that is the case, then you are stealing the worlds health and robbing future generations of their chance to lead a good and healthy life.
I'm sorry man.. Seriously, but you have so much to learn. It is hard to believe how little you understand about how things really work. You really should learn more. These ideas are so entirely incorrect. You aren't stealing the world's wealth.. LMAO! Quite the opposite, you are building their economies and helping them live a higher quality of life. Go to India, and ask those how we outsource to how grateful they are for the opportunity. They and their families, including extended are living longer, higher quality lives, then they ever could ve dreamed for in their youth.
I have a good friend who once told me, "Justice is not using anybody for anything, ever, period ".
This could be taken more then one way, so I'm not gonna respond. I have some silly friends though, too.
In other words, justice has no ego. The moral and the just are mostly invisible people, few and far between. I don't know a whole lot about the Amish, though I nearly finished a book about their history once.
I've studied them a bit. I have no quarrel with their ways, but I would not attempt to impose it on others. Actually, one of the coolest things, I think, about their culture, is that they actually let the teens leave, and go into the outside world for a bit, once they reach a certain. They are allowed to abandon every Amish rule, for a time period, and then they get the opportunity to choose which ways they will embrace. It's kinda fucked up , taht if the youths choose the outside, their family disowns them, but at least they give them a choice.
It seems to me though, that they do a pretty good job of living sustainably on the Earth. They don't use electricity and they don't drive cars(although they take rides) and they grow most of their own food. I know that they have some participation in the economy but I think it's minimal and I suggest that an Amish way of life or something akin to it, is the answer, sans religion.
What we have now is corporate feudalism.
What we have now is whatever you want. You want to be a corporate serf, you can be. But to tell others that they have no choice is incorrect and to be honest, just a plain old downer.
The schools main purposes are not true education, but social conditioning. Students learn the skills that will enable them to become part of the corporate power structure, instead of how to truly support themselves. They learn dependence not independence.
Where are the schools that teach gardening and farming, leather work, metal smithing, hunting and fishing, and tailoring and carpentry, in addition to the 3 "R"s.
They are called trade schools, and if you need to find them, look around. Usually though, these things are taught through an apprentice type environment. ( on the job) because there just isn t enough people who get excited about these fields and are interested in them to fill schools, and make them profitable.. - supply/demand
The schools homogenize the population and make the people dependent on the economy and therefore submissive and
easy to control.
Dependent on the economy? You talk about the economy as is it is some big monster. Economies are amoral. No matter where go. No matter what you do, there will be some form of economy.
I didn't mean to give the impression that I was proud of my hypocrisy, In fact I'm ashamed, but my shame doesn't prevent my honesty or my search for answers.
I think that most Americans, if they're honest with themselves, will realize that they frequently trade justice for convenience.
I would probably agree with your statement here, in regards to many people, but just they we arrive at the idea, for entirely different reasons, I would guess.
I think the idea that one has to be free of hypocrisy in order to point out an injustice is just silly and immature and frankly egotistical.
I am not sure why I am being accused of assuming all the liberties of immorality, hypocrisy and injustice.
Very simple. You can say whatever you want, because MAYBE you are immoral, unfair, and unjust. You are not bound to be honest, or even consistent, because even if you are, I should focus on your argument.
However, you didn t come out and say. Look man.. let's get this shit out of the way.. I am an immoral person. I am a hypocrite. I am unjust. AKA I am not good. I am a bad person. I am an unfair person.... But look, I m still right about this one thing..
Because then you know that people will not trust you.
You think I'm some kind of a nihilist or something ?? Far from it. My life is a work in progress and I do my best to live a conscientious life or as you put it, Samara, to live fair and just regardless of the matrix.
Personally, I think you re probably a pretty good guy, who hold himself to ridiculous ideals.
For what it s worth, if anything. I could be wrong too, but more often then not, I m right about this shit.
Paul
[/b]
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... I suggest that an Amish way of life or something akin to it, is the answer, sans religion.
... and with some source of renewable energy, like solar.
Where will these solar panels be created? Who will make them? Who will supply the numerous supplies necessary to make them? Will they last forever or will they need repairs sometimes? Who will run the wires from these panels to everybody's homes? Who will produce the rubber around these wires? Who will mine the copper for these wires? How will all these things be transported? Who will negotiate the prices?
Oh, and where did all the technology that made these solar panels come from to begin with? Was it from a farmer, metalsmith, or fisherman?
Paul
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[
quote="starry-eyed pirate"]Well...le's see...I don't know anyone who leads a just and moral life. If you drive a car, and import your food and other goods, like tools and clothes and furniture from halfway around the world you're not living justly.
That's some statement alright. Care to explain why? I would say that If halfway around the world goods are being produced by people willing to part with them at a better price, giving your business to them is the JUST thing to do. The person who would go this direction of trading with those across the world has a just mind, and yet at the same time, justice in the truest sense cannot be even applied to this situation, because who you choose to trade you with, and what things you choose to purchase, and do with your earned money is your business! That is justice. [/quote]
So let me get this straight, cause I can't believe you really mean what you wrote here. What you are telling me is that Justice has no place in peoples private business and that where there is money, there should not be justice and yet somehow you are also telling me that Justice is concerned with getting the best price for goods or services, regardless of the acidification of our oceans, and the burning and clearing of the worlds rain forests, the degradation of air quality, or the toxification of the water table, the eradication of indigenous, sustainable cultures, and unique animal/plant species, etc. Is that what you mean to convey ?? I hope not.[/quote]
Paul[/b][/quote]
In fact, if that is the case, then you are stealing the worlds health and robbing future generations of their chance to lead a good and healthy life.
I'm sorry man.. Seriously, but you have so much to learn. It is hard to believe how little you understand about how things really work. You really should learn more. These ideas are so entirely incorrect. You aren't stealing the world's wealth.. LMAO! Quite the opposite, you are building their economies and helping them live a higher quality of life. Go to India, and ask those how we outsource to how grateful they are for the opportunity. They and their families, including extended are living longer, higher quality lives, then they ever could ve dreamed for in their youth.
Yeah, I'm learning more all the time...the American economy expands by force. It's an imperial force. If you can't see that in Iraq you're just not looking. The vast majority of foreign countries host U.S military bases. The 5th phase, over glorified Haliburton employees are there to enforce the program on the newcomers. And domestically our corporately whored out governments policy is one of national brainwash on the youth. I was in $tr8 Inc for 2 years. The western market economy nurtures the culture of the ego in order to sustain itself. If you understand this, then you know how hard it is to be a saint in the city. The money cult appeals to the ego, and as always the easiest and most sure-fire way to manipulate anyone is through their ego. Just because the people in India are saying that they are happier then they were before the western economy stole it's way into their lives doesn't mean they aren't violating the rights of their neighbors, in order to achieve it...and when you say "building their economies"...the process you are really describing is the exploitation of the natural resources of some American slave colony, where ever they may be in the world. You don't get something for nothing in this world.
Perhaps those folks in places like India and Indonesia, who are relieved to have established themselves in the western market economy are simply being pushed into it, and like some kid sitting on front row, the first week, are relieved to take the pressure off themselves when they sell out and begin to motivate and go along with the program, motivating and singing the required songs in order to be socially acceptable and attain some physical comfort.
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Yeah, I'm learning more all the time...the American economy expands by force. It's an imperial force. If you can't see that in Iraq you're just not looking. The vast majority of foreign countries host U.S military bases. The 5th phase, over glorified Haliburton employees are there to enforce the program on the newcomers. And domestically our corporately whored out governments policy is one of national brainwash on the youth. I was in $tr8 Inc for 2 years. The western market economy nurtures the culture of the ego in order to sustain itself. If you understand this, then you know how hard it is to be a saint in the city. The money cult appeals to the ego, and as always the easiest and most sure-fire way to manipulate anyone is through their ego. Just because the people in India are saying that they are happier then they were before the western economy stole it's way into their lives doesn't mean they aren't violating the rights of their neighbors, in order to achieve it...and when you say "building their economies"...the process you are really describing is the exploitation of the natural resources of some American slave colony, where ever they may be in the world. You don't get something for nothing in this world.
Perhaps those folks in places like India and Indonesia, who are relieved to have established themselves in the western market economy are simply being pushed into it, and like some kid sitting on front row, the first week, are relieved to take the pressure off themselves when they sell out and begin to motivate and go along with the program, motivating and singing the required songs in order to be socially acceptable and attain some physical comfort.
Well stated here, pirate...I like the use of that comparison. Big Oil Uber Alles!
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I've studied them a bit. I have no quarrel with their ways, but I would not attempt to impose it on others. Actually, one of the coolest things, I think, about their culture, is that they actually let the teens leave, and go into the outside world for a bit, once they reach a certain. They are allowed to abandon every Amish rule, for a time period, and then they get the opportunity to choose which ways they will embrace. It's kinda fucked up , taht if the youths choose the outside, their family disowns them, but at least they give them a choice.
Yeah, I live near the Amish and sometimes see their buggies parked up at my corner grocery, so I have come to know them somewhat, even though I don't know any personally. I have some close friends who are organizing an intentional community in central America, and one of their guidelines is no electricity. There is already an established Amish order down there, and my friends have been socializing and learning some of the ways of their Amish neighbors and telling me about it.
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What we have now is corporate feudalism.
What we have now is whatever you want. You want to be a corporate serf, you can be. But to tell others that they have no choice is incorrect and to be honest, just a plain old downer.
I am not the type to make anybody do anything. I'm the type who wonders aloud and asks what's goin on and hopes to gain some insight or knowledge. I pretty much fully expect people to continue to be morons, but I do what I can anyway. I guess I do come off a little reactionary. It's not really a downer, once you let go of your shallow, physical and mental attachments to society, and the enrichment of the individual and family life could be well worth the sacrifice,m depending upon individual circumstances. Unless you mean being forced to behave a certain way is a downer, then yeah I know. Anyway, I never meant to imply that we should force everyone to comply with my ideals. I'm not an authoritarian, just wondering what other people thought about it...you know...and hopin to learn somethin along the way.
That said, sometimes there aint no choice anyway and it's better to take control than be dictated to.
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I'll have to get back later...
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So who is jumping up to join your friends in the international, no electricity, no toilet community?
Man being man will fuck up any system. Whether primitive or corporate. Utopia becomes dystopia. There will always be a minority concentration of power. There will always be threats to power. There will always be over-reactive nimwits.
But it is wayyyyy to easy to let "The Program Matrix Theory" become the end all-be all excuse for individual shortcomings.
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But it is wayyyyy to easy to let "The Program Matrix Theory" become the end all-be all excuse for individual shortcomings.
Come again?
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The Greco-Roman world was the matrix for Western civilization.
We know how that ended.
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Well...le's see...I don't know anyone who leads a just and moral life. If you drive a car, and import your food and other goods, like tools and clothes and furniture from halfway around the world you're not living justly. In fact, if that is the case, then you are stealing the worlds health and robbing future generations of their chance to lead a good and healthy life. I have a good friend who once told me, "Justice is not using anybody for anything, ever, period ". In other words, justice has no ego. The moral and the just are mostly invisible people, few and far between. I don't know a whole lot about the Amish, though I nearly finished a book about their history once. It seems to me though, that they do a pretty good job of living sustainable on the Earth. They don't use electricity and they don't drive cars(although they take rides) and they grow most of their own food. I know that they have some participation in the economy but I think it's minimal and I suggest that an Amish way of life or something akin to it, is the answer, sans religion.
What we have now is corporate feudalism. The schools main purposes are not true education, but social conditioning. Students learn the skills that will enable them to become part of the corporate power structure, instead of how to truly support themselves. They learn dependence not independence. Where are the schools that teach gardening and farming, leather work, metal smithing, hunting and fishing, and tailoring and carpentry, in addition to the 3 "R"s. The schools homogenize the population and make the people dependent on the economy and therefore submissive and easy to control.
I didn't mean to give the impression that I was proud of my hypocrisy, In fact I'm ashamed, but my shame doesn't prevent my honesty or my search for answers. I think that most Americans, if they're honest with themselves, will realize that they frequently trade justice for convenience.
I think the idea that one has to be free of hypocrisy in order to point out an injustice is just silly and immature and frankly egotistical.
I am not sure why I am being accused of assuming all the liberties of immorality, hypocrisy and injustice. You think I'm some kind of a nihilist or something ?? Far from it. My life is a work in progress and I do my best to live a conscientious life or as you put it, Samara, to live fair and just regardless of the matrix.
I love what you wrote here my man. Thanks!!!
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They are called trade schools, and if you need to find them, look around. Usually though, these things are taught through an apprentice type environment. ( on the job) because there just isn t enough people who get excited about these fields and are interested in them to fill schools, and make them profitable.. - supply/demand
I'm not taliking about trade schools which are geared toward serving the current economic system. I'm asking why don't the schools teach their students real life skills to empower the individual to true independence... ??
...Because that doesn't make the system any money.
I think that community run schools should teach general homesteading techniques as a requirement, starting about 6th grade or so...
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Dependent on the economy? You talk about the economy as is it is some big monster.
Yeah, now you're gettin it!
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Economies are amoral. No matter where go. No matter what you do, there will be some form of economy.
Are they really ?? Are economies built on exploitation and slavery amoral ??
I'm not against the concept of an economy, and I've got no problem with a decentralized, localized form of a just capitalism. My criticism is aimed toward the present indiscriminate capitalist/corporate beast.
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However, you didn t come out and say. Look man.. let's get this shit out of the way.. I am an immoral person. I am a hypocrite. I am unjust. AKA I am not good. I am a bad person. I am an unfair person.... But look, I m still right about this one thing..
Well, I didn't come right out and say that, but I wasn't trying to hide it either and even as I typed those first posts on this thread I fully expected the hypocrisy argument. It's just not a legitimate counterpoint to call someone a hypocrite. If I'm a hypocrite that's a personal issue and might reveal some character flaw but it has nothing to do with the argument being made.
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Personally, I think you re probably a pretty good guy, who hold himself to ridiculous ideals.
For what it s worth, if anything. I could be wrong too, but more often then not, I m right about this shit.
Paul
Paul, I've enjoyed this little exchange very much and I appreciate your humility. I bet you're not such a bad guy either, if even somewhat misguided.
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... I suggest that an Amish way of life or something akin to it, is the answer, sans religion.
... and with some source of renewable energy, like solar.
Where will these solar panels be created? Who will make them? Who will supply the numerous supplies necessary to make them? Will they last forever or will they need repairs sometimes? Who will run the wires from these panels to everybody's homes? Who will produce the rubber around these wires? Who will mine the copper for these wires? How will all these things be transported? Who will negotiate the prices?
Oh, and where did all the technology that made these solar panels come from to begin with? Was it from a farmer, metalsmith, or fisherman?
Paul
Well, I don't really know. Perhaps Necessity will mother us in that regard. My point was that if a sustainable source of energy could be secured, then I am not against the use of electricity.
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So who is jumping up to join your friends in the international, no electricity, no toilet community?
Man being man will fuck up any system. Whether primitive or corporate. Utopia becomes dystopia. There will always be a minority concentration of power. There will always be threats to power. There will always be over-reactive nimwits.
But it is wayyyyy to easy to let "The Program Matrix Theory" become the end all-be all excuse for individual shortcomings.
Well, they're still building their homestead in the jungle down there, amongst the Maya and the Amish. They're only just getting started really. They've had some folks come and stay and help them work the land for a while and then move on. I've been invited but I'm not real hep on the jungle. They are hard core though and have my respect.
Of course you are right about the limitations of any social system. So what ?? We are constantly evolving and/or devolving...
I know what you mean about making excuses too and I think it's also wayyyyy to easy to just stick your head in the sand and go along with the program when everyone around you is motivating and trying to make the next phase.
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Well...le's see...I don't know anyone who leads a just and moral life. If you drive a car, and import your food and other goods, like tools and clothes and furniture from halfway around the world you're not living justly. In fact, if that is the case, then you are stealing the worlds health and robbing future generations of their chance to lead a good and healthy life. I have a good friend who once told me, "Justice is not using anybody for anything, ever, period ". In other words, justice has no ego. The moral and the just are mostly invisible people, few and far between. I don't know a whole lot about the Amish, though I nearly finished a book about their history once. It seems to me though, that they do a pretty good job of living sustainable on the Earth. They don't use electricity and they don't drive cars(although they take rides) and they grow most of their own food. I know that they have some participation in the economy but I think it's minimal and I suggest that an Amish way of life or something akin to it, is the answer, sans religion.
What we have now is corporate feudalism. The schools main purposes are not true education, but social conditioning. Students learn the skills that will enable them to become part of the corporate power structure, instead of how to truly support themselves. They learn dependence not independence. Where are the schools that teach gardening and farming, leather work, metal smithing, hunting and fishing, and tailoring and carpentry, in addition to the 3 "R"s. The schools homogenize the population and make the people dependent on the economy and therefore submissive and easy to control.
I didn't mean to give the impression that I was proud of my hypocrisy, In fact I'm ashamed, but my shame doesn't prevent my honesty or my search for answers. I think that most Americans, if they're honest with themselves, will realize that they frequently trade justice for convenience.
I think the idea that one has to be free of hypocrisy in order to point out an injustice is just silly and immature and frankly egotistical.
I am not sure why I am being accused of assuming all the liberties of immorality, hypocrisy and injustice. You think I'm some kind of a nihilist or something ?? Far from it. My life is a work in progress and I do my best to live a conscientious life or as you put it, Samara, to live fair and just regardless of the matrix.
I love what you wrote here my man. Thanks!!!
My pleasure, glad you got something out of it.
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Yeah, and what I'm starting to think through now is that maybe it's not so much the idea of people having jobs that is the problem, because surely shit's gotta get done but the way the job becomes the person's very identity and takes over their lives, so that they are working 40 hours a week and being exploited and taxed by the federal government. And when you meet someone for the first time, one of the first things they usually want to know about you is how you make money. Perhaps such a question might indicate that the person asking seeks to classify the other as a commodity and not as a person.
I just think we could vastly improve our own circumstances if everyone could spend 20-30 hours a week supporting themselves directly and then maybe working 15-20 hours a week locally at the community science/medical center or the production warehouse, or the like, so the community could have the goods and services it required.
And the less money we involve in our lives the better for us all.
And let me ask a hypothetical question, if you please. Why pay anyone to do anything, really ??
It's actually quite unnecessary and only enables injustice to occur. If something needs done people should just work together and do it out of mutual benefit. I'm not sitting here holding my breath waiting for the world to realize their mistake though. I only wonder if anyone sees my point about money and the economy...
:poison: :peace:
namaste.
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Perhaps those folks in places like India and Indonesia, who are relieved to have established themselves in the western market economy are simply being pushed into it, and like some kid sitting on front row, the first week, are relieved to take the pressure off themselves when they sell out and begin to motivate and go along with the program, motivating and singing the required songs in order to be socially acceptable and attain some physical comfort.
Or maybe it's just the sold-out relief and the ego-driven happiness of the power of exploitation. The exploited becoming the exploiters...
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Perhaps those folks in places like India and Indonesia, who are relieved to have established themselves in the western market economy are simply being pushed into it, and like some kid sitting on front row, the first week, are relieved to take the pressure off themselves when they sell out and begin to motivate and go along with the program, motivating and singing the required songs in order to be socially acceptable and attain some physical comfort.
Or maybe it's just the sold-out relief and the ego-driven happiness of the power of exploitation. The exploited becoming the exploiters...
If there's a hell below, we're all gonna go...
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And when you meet someone for the first time, one of the first things they usually want to know about you is how you make money. Perhaps such a question might indicate that the person asking seeks to classify the other as a commodity and not as a person.
Aw, man! You said it. The social mores. And I personally avoid asking that question like the plague. Because I know about selling your soul to the devil for a paycheck. You're doing well if you do something you like to do for a living, and maybe get around the tax man a little bit to boot. Shit, man... I don't want to work for no goddam paycheck no more, no matter how big, and have stopped going that route (from there being perhaps less opportunity as well as from me making my own choice to do otherwise) for the time being, and hopefully for the rest of my life. But still if I don't pay income taxes I am technically breaking the law, and that (as you know damned well) is not right...but that is the way they've got it set up.
Goddammit I used to hate it when some schmuck at a social gathering would ask me that predictable question, "So, what do you do?"
"I breathe, eat, drink, shit, sleep, fuck and try to stay alive..... and yourself??"
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My time is seriously limited, so I can probably only take on a few of these today, but I will take them in order, starting here. [/u]
[quote="starry-eyed pirate"]Well...le's see...I don't know anyone who leads a just and moral life. If you drive a car, and import your food and other goods, like tools and clothes and furniture from halfway around the world you're not living justly.
That's some statement alright. Care to explain why? I would say that If halfway around the world goods are being produced by people willing to part with them at a better price, giving your business to them is the JUST thing to do. The person who would go this direction of trading with those across the world has a just mind, and yet at the same time, justice in the truest sense cannot be even applied to this situation, because who you choose to trade you with, and what things you choose to purchase, and do with your earned money is your business! That is justice.
So let me get this straight, cause I can't believe you really mean what you wrote here.
What you are telling me is that Justice has no place in peoples private business
What I wrote, is that justice does not pertain to whom you buy your goods from, as it is your choice. One of the primary functions of justice is to uphold and protect people's right to use and dispense of their own goods and earned wealth as they see fit. For example. I would disagree with a person who refuses to do business with others based on their ethnic background, but at the same time, no one has the right to force him/her to.
and that where there is money, there should not be justice
We can really save me a lot of time, if you actually read what I write. You d save your time as well, if it concerns you.
and yet somehow you are also telling me that Justice is concerned with getting the best price for goods or services,
Well, only, insofar as a person whose mentality is founded in the concept of justice, would only be concerned with these issues, rather any other arbitrary concern, such as whether or not someone is across the seas. (nationalism)
[/u]
regardless of the acidification of our oceans,
and the burning and clearing of the worlds rain forests, the degradation of air quality, or the toxification of the water table, the eradication of indigenous, sustainable cultures, and unique animal/plant species, etc. Is that what you mean to convey ?? I hope not.[/quote]
[i]Most of these things are WAY overstated by pseudo-scientists, and others who just do not know what they are talking ab out. As to the extent, to which there is some truth, progress always has issues along the way, and the only people who don t notice that are the people who do not do anything. We are always finding better ways to do things. It is very hard to be perfect all the time.. Of course, if you do absolutely nothing at all, yuo will make no mistakes, and it is very easy to critique those who do. the one specific thing I would actually like to address is about the sustainable, indigenous cultures. No one has killed them or anything, and it could be taken that way, the way you put it.
But all in all, I am not going to lie, I care more about people then about rain forests, oceans, or plant species. [/i]
Paul[/b][/quote]
In fact, if that is the case, then you are stealing the worlds health and robbing future generations of their chance to lead a good and healthy life.
I'm sorry man.. Seriously, but you have so much to learn. It is hard to believe how little you understand about how things really work. You really should learn more. These ideas are so entirely incorrect. You aren't stealing the world's wealth.. LMAO! Quite the opposite, you are building their economies and helping them live a higher quality of life. Go to India, and ask those how we outsource to how grateful they are for the opportunity. They and their families, including extended are living longer, higher quality lives, then they ever could ve dreamed for in their youth.
Yeah, I'm learning more all the time...the American economy expands by force. It's an imperial force. If you can't see that in Iraq you're just not looking. The vast majority of foreign countries host U.S military bases. The 5th phase, over glorified Haliburton employees are there to enforce the program on the newcomers. And domestically our corporately whored out governments policy is one of national brainwash on the youth. I was in $tr8 Inc for 2 years. The western market economy nurtures the culture of the ego in order to sustain itself.
What is a "culture of the ego"?
If you understand this, then you know how hard it is to be a saint in the city. The money cult appeals to the ego, and as always the easiest and most sure-fire way to manipulate anyone is through their ego.
That is the opposite of true. The easiest way to manipulate someone is by subverting the ego.. That is precisely what is done in Straights and similar programs.. They break down your ego. They try to convince you that your ego is false, so that you turn agianst it. Look up 'ego' in the dictionary, because it is possible that you and I are going on different definitions here.
Just because the p
eople in India are saying that they are happier then they were before the western economy stole it's way into their lives doesn't mean they aren't violating the rights of their neighbors, in order to achieve it...and when you say "building their economies"...the process you are really describing is the exploitation of the natural resources of some American slave colony, where ever they may be in the world. You don't get something for nothing in this world.
Bro, you are fucking crazy.. I mean, really. No one forced anything into them. they want it. They train for it, and give everything they got to get their positions. But you are right about one thing. They do not get it for nothing. They work very, very, hard, and compete for these positions.
Perhaps those folks in places like India and Indonesia, who are relieved to have established themselves in the western market economy are simply being pushed into it, and like some kid sitting on front row, the first week, are relieved to take the pressure off themselves when they sell out and begin to motivate and go along with the program, motivating and singing the required songs in order to be socially acceptable and attain some physical comfort.[/quote]
[i]Like I said, start learning some stuff. You have replaced thoughts with propaganda. You mentioned being a saint in a city. Something tells me, you do not spend much time in cities..
Paul[/i]
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So who is jumping up to join your friends in the international, no electricity, no toilet community?
Man being man will fuck up any system. Whether primitive or corporate. Utopia becomes dystopia. There will always be a minority concentration of power. There will always be threats to power. There will always be over-reactive nimwits.
But it is wayyyyy to easy to let "The Program Matrix Theory" become the end all-be all excuse for individual shortcomings.
I respect every post I have ever read of yours.
Paul
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I also have this idea about making quadricycles, which would be a replacement vehicle for the modern car, with it's combustible engine. I mean why can't we make a pedal car (like we had when we were kids, remember??) out of lightweight metal that has 2 front seats and a supply bed for groceries and supplies, etc., and a set of pedals in front of each person, on the floor, so that either person could pedal the car. The pedals would have to have about 23 gears to get up to high speed or get up hills etc. but this would be a great adjustment, and do a lot to improve the world situation. They would have to have very lightweight metal frames, resembling a bicycle, but being a car. If it's cold out you might have to bundle up. If it's raining you throw on the top. People would be healthier and so would the whole planet. It's only a partial solution though because it wouldn't be too good on steep hills and would have some weight limitations too, but might work very well in flat areas or for localized gettin around. I don't know...hmm...
I like this idea, at least for shorter distances in cities... I have gotten around via bicycle for a good part of my life, so I guess naturally I am partial to an idea like this. In fact I rode eight miles today to get to places I wanted to go. Maybe it could also be equipped with a hydro-engine, like a high-powered steam engine. I read a long time ago that the Germans have invented a car that runs on water (I don't have a link, but there may be info about it somewhere.)
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starry-eyed pirate wrote:
[
Paul St. John wrote:
quote="starry-eyed pirate"]Well...le's see...I don't know anyone who leads a just and moral life. If you drive a car, and import your food and other goods, like tools and clothes and furniture from halfway around the world you're not living justly.
That's some statement alright. Care to explain why? I would say that If halfway around the world goods are being produced by people willing to part with them at a better price, giving your business to them is the JUST thing to do. The person who would go this direction of trading with those across the world has a just mind, and yet at the same time, justice in the truest sense cannot be even applied to this situation, because who you choose to trade you with, and what things you choose to purchase, and do with your earned money is your business! That is justice.
So let me get this straight, cause I can't believe you really mean what you wrote here.
What you are telling me is that Justice has no place in peoples private business
What I wrote, is that justice does not pertain to whom you buy your goods from, as it is your choice. One of the primary functions of justice is to uphold and protect people's right to use and dispense of their own goods and earned wealth as they see fit. For example. I would disagree with a person who refuses to do business with others based on their ethnic background, but at the same time, no one has the right to force him/her to.
Justice is not relative. It is an absolute and is not merely limited to the exchange of goods and services between 2 parties as they "see fit" but is also concerned with the effect of said business deal on the world as a whole.
-
regardless of the acidification of our oceans,
and the burning and clearing of the worlds rain forests, the degradation of air quality, or the toxification of the water table, the eradication of indigenous, sustainable cultures, and unique animal/plant species, etc. Is that what you mean to convey ?? I hope not.
Most of these things are WAY overstated by pseudo-scientists, and others who just do not know what they are talking ab out. As to the extent, to which there is some truth, progress always has issues along the way, and the only people who don t notice that are the people who do not do anything. We are always finding better ways to do things. It is very hard to be perfect all the time.. Of course, if you do absolutely nothing at all, yuo will make no mistakes, and it is very easy to critique those who do. the one specific thing I would actually like to address is about the sustainable, indigenous cultures. No one has killed them or anything, and it could be taken that way, the way you put it.
But all in all, I am not going to lie, I care more about people then about rain forests, oceans, or plant species.
Paul[/b]
[/quote]
Man you are really missin it.
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The easiest way to manipulate someone is by subverting the ego..
Yeah, that's what I said...kinda. I don't know, is subversion, manipulation ??
That is precisely what is done in Straights and similar programs.. They break down your ego. They try to convince you that your ego is false, so that you turn agianst it. Look up 'ego' in the dictionary, because it is possible that you and I are going on different definitions here.
These things are always difficult to discuss or write about...the nature of the ego and transcendence...justice...
In $tr8 and other programs the process of the brainwash begins with the destruction of the individual's social coping skills and an assault on the ego. This is only the first part of the process. Once your natural ego is attrophied sufficiently a new program ego is grafted on to the ol root, just like an apple tree, and you are systematically attached to the values and ideas of the program. People end up surrendering their integrity and sense of justice because they don't recognize their own ego for what it is. They identify themselves with it, instead of with the transcendent and so are easily manipulated and controlled by appeals to the ego. That's how people are manipulated and exploited and made the tools of injustice every day all over the world.
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Bro, you are fucking crazy.. I mean... ... they want it. They train for it, and give everything they got to get their positions. But you are right about one thing. They do not get it for nothing. They work very, very, hard, and compete for these positions.
Yeah, you're practically making my point for me.
Like I said, start learning some stuff. You have replaced thoughts with propaganda. You mentioned being a saint in a city. Something tells me, you do not spend much time in cities..
Paul
Paul, I grew up in the cities. I was raised in the Bay area and San Diego and Philadelphia. I grew up around all kinds of people. These days I live in a small post-industrial town in Western PA. I'm in the process of converting my house into a fully functioning urban homestead, but right now I still have quite a ways to go in that direction. It's an ol rust-belt industrial town, full of ol dilapidated brick buildings and rail lines an such...
The Amish are settled in the countryside just to the north. The surrounding country is beautiful farming country. Occasionally, when I walk up to the corner grocery store I am delighted and amazed to see an Amish buggy with horses in my way. O0
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In $tr8 and other programs the process of the brainwash begins with the destruction of the individual's social coping skills and an assault on the ego. This is only the first part of the process. Once your natural ego is attrophied sufficiently a new program ego is grafted on to the ol root, just like an apple tree, and you are systematically attached to the values and ideas of the program. People end up surrendering their integrity and sense of justice because they don't recognize their own ego for what it is. They identify themselves with it, instead of with the transcendent and so are easily manipulated and controlled by appeals to the ego. That's how people are manipulated and exploited and made the tools of injustice every day all over the world.
Not much different than a lab-rat looking for cheese but he knows he must kill another rat to get to it; at what point to you give in and kill the other rat? At that point you've made a vital compromise, despite the fact you had no choice.
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I just think we could vastly improve our own circumstances if everyone could spend 20-30 hours a week supporting themselves directly and then maybe working 15-20 hours a week locally at the community science/medical center or the production warehouse, or the like, so the community could have the goods and services it required.
This sort of economic arrangement would go a long way toward easing class/racial tensions by making the society more egalitarian in general and would at the same time also do a great deal to heal the fractured state of the modern family by placing value on working together as a family unit on the homestead.
...
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I just think we could vastly improve our own circumstances if everyone could spend 20-30 hours a week supporting themselves directly and then maybe working 15-20 hours a week locally at the community science/medical center or the production warehouse, or the like, so the community could have the goods and services it required.
This sort of economic arrangement would go a long way toward easing class/racial tensions by making the society more egalitarian in general and would at the same time also do a great deal to heal the fractured state of the modern family by placing value on working together as a family unit on the homestead.
...
..but what about WAR?!?!??! We have to keep fighting the enemy!!! :rofl: :rocker: :poison: :roflmao: :clown: :deal:
Vote VERMIN SUPREME and fight tooth decay!
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I just think we could vastly improve our own circumstances if everyone could spend 20-30 hours a week supporting themselves directly and then maybe working 15-20 hours a week locally at the community science/medical center or the production warehouse, or the like, so the community could have the goods and services it required.
This sort of economic arrangement would go a long way toward easing class/racial tensions by making the society more egalitarian in general and would at the same time also do a great deal to heal the fractured state of the modern family by placing value on working together as a family unit on the homestead.
...
..but what about WAR?!?!??! We have to keep fighting the enemy!!! :rofl: :rocker: :poison: :roflmao: :clown: :deal:
Vote VERMIN SUPREME and fight tooth decay!
Imaginary enemy's are profitable.
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Imaginary enemies are profitable.
Yup, I believed The Dead Kennedys back in 1981 when they said as much in songs like "When Ya Get Drafted."
And of course, this was verified time and again over the years..
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starry-eyed pirate wrote:
[
Paul St. John wrote:
quote="starry-eyed pirate"]Well...le's see...I don't know anyone who leads a just and moral life. If you drive a car, and import your food and other goods, like tools and clothes and furniture from halfway around the world you're not living justly.
That's some statement alright. Care to explain why? I would say that If halfway around the world goods are being produced by people willing to part with them at a better price, giving your business to them is the JUST thing to do. The person who would go this direction of trading with those across the world has a just mind, and yet at the same time, justice in the truest sense cannot be even applied to this situation, because who you choose to trade you with, and what things you choose to purchase, and do with your earned money is your business! That is justice.
So let me get this straight, cause I can't believe you really mean what you wrote here.
What you are telling me is that Justice has no place in peoples private business
What I wrote, is that justice does not pertain to whom you buy your goods from, as it is your choice. One of the primary functions of justice is to uphold and protect people's right to use and dispense of their own goods and earned wealth as they see fit. For example. I would disagree with a person who refuses to do business with others based on their ethnic background, but at the same time, no one has the right to force him/her to.
Justice is not relative. It is an absolute and is not merely limited to the exchange of goods and services between 2 parties as they "see fit" but is also concerned with the effect of said business deal on the world as a whole.
Yes.. I know.. Justice is justice. It is very hard, however, to measure the effect of any exchange on the entire world.
Here is an example. There is no doubt that there are chemicals put in our food, and as well, things left out of the food, that make them less healthy. Such things probably cause an extremely slight increase in the chances of those who consume them getting cancer, and other diseases. All other things being the same, consuming these ingredients, may slightly reduce a person's life span. However, the use of these chemicals, greatly increase convenience, and reduce the price. Many people, if they knew, all the possible risks, and had all the facts laid out, right in front of them, would still choose processed foods. That means more choice- more options for more people. I would say that that makes the world better as a whole, because it increases choice. You would probably say that it hurts the world.
Organic food is available for those who want it, but for those who would like to trade a drop of health or a take a risk of increasing the possibility of getting a disease, for convenience, expedience, and value, they have that choice. I love choice. I think that choice is great, and that the more choice, the better the world for all. Possibly, a person will put the money and time that they save through the purchasing of all non-organics foods, into other healthful activities, that are more to their liking, or which they believe to be of greater benefit.
Paul St. John
-
regardless of the acidification of our oceans,
and the burning and clearing of the worlds rain forests, the degradation of air quality, or the toxification of the water table, the eradication of indigenous, sustainable cultures, and unique animal/plant species, etc. Is that what you mean to convey ?? I hope not.
Most of these things are WAY overstated by pseudo-scientists, and others who just do not know what they are talking ab out. As to the extent, to which there is some truth, progress always has issues along the way, and the only people who don t notice that are the people who do not do anything. We are always finding better ways to do things. It is very hard to be perfect all the time.. Of course, if you do absolutely nothing at all, yuo will make no mistakes, and it is very easy to critique those who do. the one specific thing I would actually like to address is about the sustainable, indigenous cultures. No one has killed them or anything, and it could be taken that way, the way you put it.
But all in all, I am not going to lie, I care more about people then about rain forests, oceans, or plant species.
Paul[/b]
Man you are really missin it.[/quote]
What is the "it' that I am missing? Can you define it?
Paul
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Money is the root of all evil.
Usury, fiat currency, derivatives, it's all bullshit and has to go.
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It's not the root of all evil. If not money, something else. But currency is here to stay so no point in belaboring the issue or dreaming of a Walden Utopia unless you are ready, able, and willing to live it.
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It's not the root of all evil. If not money, something else. But currency is here to stay so no point in belaboring the issue or dreaming of a Walden Utopia unless you are ready, able, and willing to live it.
Well maybe not all, but most...
And it will most certainly NOT be here to stay if it becomes worthless enough to the people.
Eventually, people will create their own currency, or turn to other means of trade that does not involve "THEM."
There is no Walden utopia, or utopia of any kind possible given the circumstances we face as a global society today. Most people don't know survival from a hole in the ground. Most people would die off. Much death and chaos would ensue; so you are absolutely right, there...
The system is collapsing though. No denying that!
This guy has some amazing insight about the world economy:
http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo ... __part_1_/ (http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/50078/Collapse__part_1_/)
http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo ... __part_2_/ (http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/50113/Collapse__part_2_/)
Eventually all things crumble; in the end, all is known.
Nothing new under the sun.
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What is the "it' that I am missing? Can you define it?
Paul
In One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest, Chief Bromden referred to it as The Combine.
It is the machine relentlessly pushing its institutions over on its people for hundreds of years now..
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It's not the root of all evil. If not money, something else. But currency is here to stay so no point in belaboring the issue or dreaming of a Walden Utopia unless you are ready, able, and willing to live it.
Guns, pot, alcohol, sex or drinking to much carrot juice is not the problem or "root of all evil". Humans may be the root of all evil or at least we have the ability.
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Well, yeah. Anything can be misused and abused.... vices, ideology, and maybe even carrot juice. They can also be enjoyed.... maybe even carrot juice.
As long as there are humans....
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It's not the root of all evil. If not money, something else. But currency is here to stay so no point in belaboring the issue or dreaming of a Walden Utopia unless you are ready, able, and willing to live it.
Well maybe not all, but most...
I will state here with certainty, taht money is the root of no evil at all, now or ever, and anyone who says otherwise, does not believe that people are responsible for their own actions. Such a person would have to believe that a piece of paper has magical powers of negativity over human beings.
And it will most certainly NOT be here to stay if it becomes worthless enough to the people.
Was that statement really worth writing? No > I suppose thta it would NOT be here to stay IF it becomes worthless enough to people.
Eventually, people will create their own currency, or turn to other means of trade that does not involve "THEM."
How do you know?
There is no Walden utopia, or utopia of any kind possible given the circumstances we face as a global society today. Most people don't know survival from a hole in the ground. Most people would die off. Much death and chaos would ensue; so you are absolutely right, there...
The system is collapsing though. No denying that!
This guy has some amazing insight about the world economy:
http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo ... __part_1_/ (http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/50078/Collapse__part_1_/)
http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo ... __part_2_/ (http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/50113/Collapse__part_2_/)
I went to the website and found that this video was in a playlist along with videos of real-life mermaids, bigfoot, aliens, and others things of the sort.
Eventually all things crumble; in the end, all is known.
Nah.. All is never known. There's always more out there for those with the spirit to go after it.
Nothing new under the sun.
Nothing new under the sun- That sounds really fucking boring
Paul
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The video mainly consists of an interview with Michael Ruppert, who published and edited From The Wilderness, a newsletter and website covering a range of topics including (international) politics, the C.I.A., peak oil, civil liberties, drugs, economics, corruption and 9/11 alternative theories. He is also the author of Crossing The Rubicon: The Decline of the American Empire at the End of the Age of Oil...Currently, he is CEO and president of Collapse Network, Inc, and hosts The Lifeboat Hour on Progressive Radio Network. Not "just some crackpot" talking about aliens, for fuck's sake...lol
In the end all is known; that is, when time and space cease to be. But I agree with you as far as there are often solutions if one takes the time to look for them...on that note, and in reply to your question, it seems only logical that if money becomes worthless enough people will find more viable options of trade, even if it means committing "treason." Where would we be if we had never unburdened ourselves of The Crown?
You take my statement about money too literally, Paul. I even made the comparison of people and guns in anticipation of this; maybe you didn't catch that. But I stand by that statement in so far as it facilitates evil, especially when you are talking about interest (usury), derivatives, and fiat currency. The dollar is taking a dive, and Wall St. has everything to do with it! I'm sure you were aware that pretty much the entire Cabinet is comprised of Wall St. bankers (e.g. Tim Geithner).
While "nothing new under the sun" sounds boring, the point of that statement is that history is repeating itself and we are too ignorant to see it.
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Ignorant or apathetic? Or optimistic? Or comfortable with uncertainty... or just livin' in the moment?
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While "nothing new under the sun" sounds boring, the point of that statement is that history is repeating itself and we are too ignorant to see it.
I agree with this statement fully.
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Ignorant or apathetic? Or optimistic? Or comfortable with uncertainty... or just livin' in the moment?
All of them, I think.. It is surely frustrating.
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regardless of the acidification of our oceans,
and the burning and clearing of the worlds rain forests, the degradation of air quality, or the toxification of the water table, the eradication of indigenous, sustainable cultures, and unique animal/plant species, etc. Is that what you mean to convey ?? I hope not.
Most of these things are WAY overstated by pseudo-scientists, and others who just do not know what they are talking ab out. As to the extent, to which there is some truth, progress always has issues along the way, and the only people who don t notice that are the people who do not do anything. We are always finding better ways to do things. It is very hard to be perfect all the time.. Of course, if you do absolutely nothing at all, yuo will make no mistakes, and it is very easy to critique those who do. the one specific thing I would actually like to address is about the sustainable, indigenous cultures. No one has killed them or anything, and it could be taken that way, the way you put it.
But all in all, I am not going to lie, I care more about people then about rain forests, oceans, or plant species.
Paul[/b]
Man you are really missin it.
What is the "it' that I am missing? Can you define it?
Paul[/quote]
I've done my best. I think if you consider what I'm saying as you look around, you might see it. Put away all your social conditioning. forget your education and just look around.
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It's not the root of all evil.
No, it's not. Injustice is generally rooted in the ego consciousness and the inability to recognize the ego for what it is.
... currency is here to stay so no point in belaboring the issue or dreaming of a Walden Utopia unless you are ready, able, and willing to live it.
Currency is here to stay, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't see it for what it is and be able to discuss the ways that using currency effects the lives of the people. The idea that there is no point in discussing economic justice or justice in general or what you refer to here, as a "Walden Utopia", strikes me as defensive and irrational and reactionary and seems to imply guilt. Why do you make a caricature of Justice ??
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As long as there are humans....
...yeah, right, but that doesn't mean that our lives don't have inherent worth or value or that we should all just throw in the towel and forget what justice is. Just another excuse not to look at whats happening.
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Ignorant or apathetic? Or optimistic? Or comfortable with uncertainty... or just livin' in the moment?
... :roflmao: ...optimistic ?? or just self serving and greedy ??
Comfortable with uncertainty ?? Please. :rofl: I thought all of civilization was an attempt to arrest uncertainty. That must be why the insurance industry is collapsing, because everyone is so comfortable with uncertainty.
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I think you are purposely misunderstanding what I'm saying, Friend.
... :roflmao: ...optimistic ?? or just self serving and greedy ??
I am saying there are many world views. People are allowed to be optimistic if they choose... I certainly wouldn't call optimists self serving and greedy. I know plenty of people who are not.
Comfortable with uncertainty ?? Please. :rofl: I thought all of civilization was an attempt to arrest uncertainty. That must be why the insurance industry is collapsing, because everyone is so comfortable with uncertainty.
Some people are comfortable with uncertainty. Especially when they have insurance... :) But when it comes to global implosion, there is not much I can do individually. I can't predict the how/what/why/when. So, why belabor it? I'm not gonna live in a constant state of sturm and drang and angst that's for fucking sure.
...yeah, right, but that doesn't mean that our lives don't have inherent worth or value or that we should all just throw in the towel and forget what justice is. Just another excuse not to look at whats happening.
Who throwing in the towel and forgetting what justice is? Just because I won't live in a state of constant weltschmerz doesn't mean I forgot justice. Justice/Fairness is extremely important to me. I try to live my life that way.
No, it's not. Injustice is generally rooted in the ego consciousness and the inability to recognize the ego for what it is.
I don't need psychobabble on ego consciousness to know injustice blows.
Samara wrote: ... currency is here to stay so no point in belaboring the issue or dreaming of a Walden Utopia unless you are ready, able, and willing to live it.
Currency is here to stay, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't see it for what it is and be able to discuss the ways that using currency effects the lives of the people. The idea that there is no point in discussing economic justice or justice in general or what you refer to here, as a "Walden Utopia", strikes me as defensive and irrational and reactionary and seems to imply guilt. Why do you make a caricature of Justice ??
Defensive, irrational, and guilty? Are you projecting? Don't assume where I am coming from. All I said was currency whether trade or other currency is here to stay. Period. It's never been infallibly fair. Life has never been fair. Yet, I still strive as an individual to be fair and promote fairness. I never said there is no point in discussing economic unfairness but you seem to vacillate between pie in the sky idealism and total pessimism - which is no solution at all. So there is a point in discussing - but why use circular, elliptical reasoning? And generally,people with their knickers twisted should be living what they advocate instead of clocking others on the head with rantings, accusations and ideologies.
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I think you are purposely misunderstanding what I'm saying, Friend.
Why would I do that ??
... :roflmao: ...optimistic ?? or just self serving and greedy ??
I am saying there are many world views. People are allowed to be optimistic if they choose.
I agree
I certainly wouldn't call optimists self serving and greedy. I know plenty of people who are not. [/b]
I didn't mean to imply that optimists are self serving and greedy. I meant to question whether or not these optimists are genuinely optimistic or if they simply serve their own purposes.
Comfortable with uncertainty ?? Please. :rofl: I thought all of civilization was an attempt to arrest uncertainty. That must be why the insurance industry is collapsing, because everyone is so comfortable with uncertainty.
Some people are comfortable with uncertainty. Especially when they have insurance... :) But when it comes to global implosion, there is not much I can do individually. I can't predict the how/what/why/when. So, why belabor it? I'm not gonna live in a constant state of sturm and drang and angst that's for fucking sure.
That quote about the triumph of evil requiring good folks to do nothing comes to mind and whatever the reality, humor heals, but if one seeks to adjust reality to suit their humor, there will be a shallow and unrewarding result. My friends and I share a good bit of humor concerning the injustices of the world.
...yeah, right, but that doesn't mean that our lives don't have inherent worth or value or that we should all just throw in the towel and forget what justice is. Just another excuse not to look at whats happening.
Who throwing in the towel and forgetting what justice is? Just because I won't live in a state of constant weltschmerz doesn't mean I forgot justice. Justice/Fairness is extremely important to me. I try to live my life that way.
You misunderstand me if you think I am asking you to live in a constant state of weltschmerz.
No, it's not. Injustice is generally rooted in the ego consciousness and the inability to recognize the ego for what it is.
I don't need psychobabble on ego consciousness to know injustice blows.
Yeah, I didn't think you did. I was responding to the idea that money was evil. Though money is made the tool of injustice daily it seems to me that what we call evil really resides in the in the ego consciousness and the inability to see ones own ego in all it's subtle forms.
Samara wrote: ... currency is here to stay so no point in belaboring the issue or dreaming of a Walden Utopia unless you are ready, able, and willing to live it.
Currency is here to stay, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't see it for what it is and be able to discuss the ways that using currency effects the lives of the people. The idea that there is no point in discussing economic justice or justice in general or what you refer to here, as a "Walden Utopia", strikes me as defensive and irrational and reactionary and seems to imply guilt. Why do you make a caricature of Justice ??
Defensive, irrational, and guilty? Are you projecting? Don't assume where I am coming from. All I said was currency whether trade or other currency is here to stay. Period. It's never been infallibly fair. Life has never been fair. Yet, I still strive as an individual to be fair and promote fairness. I never said there is no point in discussing economic unfairness but you seem to vacillate between pie in the sky idealism and total pessimism - which is no solution at all. So there is a point in discussing - but why use circular, elliptical reasoning? And generally,people with their knickers twisted should be living what they advocate instead of clocking others on the head with rantings, accusations and ideologies.
Sorry, if I misunderstood you.
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regardless of the acidification of our oceans,
and the burning and clearing of the worlds rain forests, the degradation of air quality, or the toxification of the water table, the eradication of indigenous, sustainable cultures, and unique animal/plant species, etc. Is that what you mean to convey ?? I hope not.
Most of these things are WAY overstated by pseudo-scientists, and others who just do not know what they are talking ab out. As to the extent, to which there is some truth, progress always has issues along the way, and the only people who don t notice that are the people who do not do anything. We are always finding better ways to do things. It is very hard to be perfect all the time.. Of course, if you do absolutely nothing at all, yuo will make no mistakes, and it is very easy to critique those who do. the one specific thing I would actually like to address is about the sustainable, indigenous cultures. No one has killed them or anything, and it could be taken that way, the way you put it.
But all in all, I am not going to lie, I care more about people then about rain forests, oceans, or plant species.
Paul[/b]
Man you are really missin it.
What is the "it' that I am missing? Can you define it?
Paul
I've done my best. I think if you consider what I'm saying as you look around, you might see it. Put away all your social conditioning. forget your education and just look around.[/quote]
Right, as I help you refine your vision, with basic sensibility, because you have gotten it all figured out, and I am just a conditioned dolt.
Paul
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Right, as I help you refine your vision, with basic sensibility, because you have gotten it all figured out, and I am just a conditioned dolt.
Paul[/quote]
Well, I wouldn't be so crude. I have considered your words. I thought you asked as I did. I have no ill will toward you. You have given me reason to consider what is really goin on, but you have yet to present a valid argument against my position.
No one has yet shown me a better understanding of justice, on this thread. I am not seeking enemies.
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Right, as I help you refine your vision, with basic sensibility, because you have gotten it all figured out, and I am just a conditioned dolt.
Paul
Well, I wouldn't be so crude. I have considered your words. I thought you asked as I did. I have no ill will toward you. You have given me reason to consider what is really goin on, but you have yet to present a valid argument against my position.
No one has yet shown me a better understanding of justice, on this thread. I am not seeking enemies.[/quote]
Sorry took so long.. Ol' Paul has been Super Busy.. Anyhow.. I don t consider us enemies.. LOL.. In the end, it is your life, and you can do with it what you will.. I disagree with your ideas however.. and I do it quite proudly.. but as I said.. it s your life.. In regards to arguments , I do not think you understood most of what I wrote, and those things that you did, you simply assimilated, which is a good thing, in itself, I suppose. Was I crude.. don t know.. Was really exhausted at the time I replied , and nonetheless so, right now. I did not like being preached to.. See to be completely honest with you, I think your ideas are ridiculous, and for you to set up an insinuation, that anyone who doesn t want to "drop out", is somehow indoctrined, and conditioned, got me just a bit pissed. I am a very proud person.. Yes.. I question.. I do it frequently, and ruthlessly, but I don t do it on my knees.. I do it on my feet.
Paul