Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Straight, Inc. and Derivatives => Topic started by: Anonymous on November 29, 2005, 07:49:00 AM
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I know Straight and related programs discussed on this website are defined as a cult. To varying degrees I would agree with this. I wonder, what is the opinion of the "group" here of organizations that are defined by the government as "cults", such as the Branch Davidians, etc.? Do you think these are real cults or since they are "government defined" you are obligated to see them in a different light? Seems to me a cult is a cult. Just wonderin'.
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I think christianity, judaism, buddhism, hinduism, catholocism, islamism, etc... are all cults. People who believe something they can never prove with such conviction they are willing to kill others to support their belief. Sounds pretty cultish to me!!
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On 2005-11-29 06:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
" People who believe something they can never prove with such conviction they are willing to kill others to support their belief. Sounds pretty cultish to me!!"
Sounds just like Goverment to me. When it comes to killing over a belief, The goverments make the top of the list. Goverments who force absurd laws and forces everyone to act "socially acceptable". Seems they are always pointing their finger at someone else tho. Goverments are the biggest offender when we start pointing fingers at "cults". IMO
If I read correctly years ago, even Jim Jones didn't become paranoid and violent until the goverment persued him for tax evasion? Least that is how I remember reading it.
Just for the record Paying Tax is a choice, but too many people have forgotten that part of the constitution and mindlessly pay.
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So society shouldn't follow "acceptable" rules? That's what you have in Iraq, Afghanistan and other parts of the middle east; a bunch of sects, packs, cults, whatever you want to call them, with no regard for human life or equality. If you don't agree with one sect; no dialogue; you're dead. You have to have some guiding rules of conduct and avenues to vent (i.e. all the time in this website)or it's the wild west again.
The US should be outta those areas and leave them to kill each other instaed of us.
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It is who decides what is "acceptable" then, that dictates peace or corruption within any group think situation.?
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Yes. And?
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Well then aren't we saying it's not always the "cult" thats bad/negitive/etc, but it's the person/people who Run and enforce it's Rules/laws.
I just get stuck on: Who am I to decide what is bad or good.
IMO, Obviously violence and abuse is bad. But there seems to be a grey area of "what is acceptable, productive, possitive growth" (which makes for an ok cult?). Or, do we decide all group think is Bad.
I tend to be on the side of All group think is bad, but I see how society makes us participate. And I'm not completely happy with what my society has deemed "acceptable".
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Perhaps the "cult' word is being used loosely here.
But sure, the U.S. controls the media, therefore the information, and keeps us paranoid with jail sentences for, as one example, using and growing marijuana. The U.S. govt supports the DFAF and the Drug War misinformation campaign. In that respect, to a certain extent, it is cultlike.
However, the flow of information is open enough that people in the U.S. can get alternate news sources, discuss, etc.
Therefore, it is not an entirely closed society, and we do have freedom of press. Supposedly. If journalists avail themselves of it rather than availing themselves of power tripping with politicians and otherwise wealthy and influential persons.
To what degree is any society controlled through fear, misinformation, and cutting people off from anything or person "outside"?
There are other aspects to the more extreme cults like the WWASP and Straight child torture institution that make them far more powerful and damaging.
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Well, the traditional definition of a cult is about any group that believes a certain version of any religion. So the Methodist denomination would be one cult of the Christian cult. The root word here is culture.
The more modern definition--what most people mean when they use the term these days--is a destructive, high demand group like Charles' Manson's Family or Chuch Dederich's Synanon or Jim Jones' People's Temple.
Words change, that's a fact.
As it relates to our day and age, Yes! I think that TOUGHLOVE is a destructive, high demand cult. What demand could be higher than requiring a parent to disown their own children for dissent?
And this particular cult, thanks to Nancy Reagan and her astrologer, has garnered an awful lot of influence in US policy and American culture (two different but interrelated things).
It's different from, say, the kind cult following that Elvis Presely has or the cult classic B movies or other cultural influences. It's one thing to turn your nose up at someone for failure to properly master the entire body of Elvis trivia. It's something completely different to take someones home, property, children and liberty just because they disagree with you about the relative value and danger of one particular drug over another.
Life may have no meaning. Or even worse, it may have a meaning of which I disapprove.
Ashleigh Brilliant
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So preschools, mom's clubs, and sports teams are all cults? Guess Earth and the human race is also a cult.
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Ya know what??? Go look it up for yourself and then make up your OWN mind instead of having everyone here makek it up for you....
http://www.ex-cult.org/ (http://www.ex-cult.org/)
Look under General Information
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i don't even have the energy to even get into this right now but i liked readin'this thread. Provocative. Nice work.
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I know, its a lot to take in. Start with the BITE model. Seems to be the easiest reading and the easiest to get to. Whenever you're ready.
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On 2005-11-29 15:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Ya know what??? Go look it up for yourself and then make up your OWN mind instead of having everyone here makek it up for you....
http://www.ex-cult.org/ (http://www.ex-cult.org/)
Look under General Information
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But doesn't this link itself tell you what a cult is in their opinion? Who's to say this is the gospel?
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On 2005-11-29 15:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"So preschools, mom's clubs, and sports teams are all cults? Guess Earth and the human race is also a cult."
By which definition? The older, maybe obsolete definition meaning cultural group? Or the more commonly use, pejorative definition meaning destructive, authoritarian or high demand group?
You could call a cult anything you like. Jim Jones called his a Bible revival. Some of them call themselves schools or programs or churches. Many of them call themselves support groups, like ToughLove, for example. Some pass themselves off as political organizations, like Drug Free America Foundation or the International Workers' Party.
Really, cult is just another word for religion. But it's modern use is usually an indication of unwholesome religious activity.
But back to the original question:
I wonder, what is the opinion of the "group" here of organizations that are defined by the government as "cults", such as the Branch Davidians, etc.? Do you think these are real cults or since they are "government defined" you are obligated to see them in a different light? Seems to me a cult is a cult. Just wonderin'.
I think the government probably gets it wrong very often. Based on what I've read, yeah, David Koresh had himself a pretty destructive little operation going there. But that never justified the fire bombing of innocent captive children. And the response and acceptance of it from my fellow Americans truely frightened me.
What's the Unification Church? Is it really a church like the Methodist one I went to on Sundays as a kid? Don't ask our Federal government. They recently crowned the Rev. Moon Emperor of the World, or some such at the Senate office building! Your tax dollars at work, folks!
http://www.iapprovethismessiah.com/2004 ... ffice.html (http://www.iapprovethismessiah.com/2004/06/this-really-happened-at-senate-office.html)
How about Scientology? A lot of people take offense at their being called a cult. Others take umberage at their being called a religion? Seems like a silly distinction to me. But only this past year or so California schools "discovered" that one of the drug education programs they contracted for their schools was really a front for the clams.
Nope, I don't count on our government to keep me safe from destructive, high demand cults. Fact is, by either popular definition, tyrants and despots down through history have shown a deep and abiding apreciation for the power of popular cults to keep us plebes in line.
Thanks, but no thanks!
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base.
-- Dave Barry
_________________
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
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Wouldn't this website constitute a cult following? You all, for the most part, have one shared agenda, one shared theme, one shared past experience that makes you want to convert others to see or believe what you believe. If they don't believe then they are being influenced by another "cult" to make them not see YOUR point of view. Contradictory or is everyone a part of cults or cliques despite not wanting to be? Can you have belong to more than one cult?
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No one is held against their will or manipulated with fear to stay or buy some dogma.
Big difference.
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On 2005-11-30 11:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
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No one is held against their will or manipulated with fear to stay or buy some dogma.
Big difference.
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But as described here, not all cults do that sort of thing.
However, fear IS promoted here by describing alleged governmental conspiracies and how we should fight the power OR ELSE. It's the same fear the government uses to attempt to scare people from using drugs and it is effective both ways. What goes around, apparently, comes around. Fair is fair, I suppose, but let's not say that fear tactics are not used here. Even describing horrific past events that happened to some here is both an attempt at healing and an attempt at scaring people to be on the watch for a straight-like cult that could control all of society.
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On 2005-11-30 11:24:00, Anonymous wrote:
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On 2005-11-30 11:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
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No one is held against their will or manipulated with fear to stay or buy some dogma.
Big difference.
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But as described here, not all cults do that sort of thing.
However, fear IS promoted here by describing alleged governmental conspiracies and how we should fight the power OR ELSE. It's the same fear the government uses to attempt to scare people from using drugs and it is effective both ways. What goes around, apparently, comes around. Fair is fair, I suppose, but let's not say that fear tactics are not used here. Even describing horrific past events that happened to some here is both an attempt at healing and an attempt at scaring people to be on the watch for a straight-like cult that could control all of society.
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I see this as a real stretch and a generally unfair assumption for the sake of wanting to play the devils advocate.
This is a message board, a forum for posting written thoughts and opinions. The moment your screensaver kicks in on your machine, this place has zero to do with your reality if you choose.
Its like saying the teletubbies are a childrens cult because they attempt to encourage laughter and other warm fuzzy feelings. Or your parents are leaders of a curfew cult for demanding that you go to sleep before 9pm every night.
You need to rethink what you want to define as a cult, like Ginger mentioned.
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See, technically you are a follower of Ginger. You tend to side quite often if not always with Ginger and her assessment of things. Has her agenda influenced you or did you have the same agenda and happen to find this site? You're preaching the same ideas as her, thereby perpetuating the agenda (i.e. cult).
This website is far more than an alternate reality. There has been organized physical efforts and demonstrations from this website.
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If society, preschool and all that is a cult, we need another word for Straight and the other child torture institutions.
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On 2005-11-30 13:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"See, technically you are a follower of Ginger. You tend to side quite often if not always with Ginger and her assessment of things. Has her agenda influenced you or did you have the same agenda and happen to find this site? You're preaching the same ideas as her, thereby perpetuating the agenda (i.e. cult).
This website is far more than an alternate reality. There has been organized physical efforts and demonstrations from this website."
I dunno Ginger, havent we ever disagreed? :roll:
I think you are technically in the cult of "Cult Paranoia". Read the rest of my last post to clarify what it is beleive in Anon, rather than the last line.
And I STILL think this whole thing is a serious stretch. Your are effectively avoiding real and valid discourse on the definition of cults in favor of paranoid deconstructions.
I said this site is not part of your reality if you CHOOSE. Pay attention here, stay with me.
[ This Message was edited by: Carmel on 2005-11-30 13:31 ]
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On 2005-11-30 10:58:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Wouldn't this website constitute a cult following?
Well yeah, in the sense that Robert Anton Wilson has a cult following. Except, of course, that he has, by far and away, more readers and fans than this site probably ever will. And he's the only author of his work, while this site consists of all kinds of contributions--from the droll and morose to hysterically comical satire--from numerous writers; you among them.
You all, for the most part, have one shared agenda, one shared theme, one shared past experience that makes you want to convert others to see or believe what you believe.
Then how come we can't have so much as a weenie roast w/o nearly coming close to blows and restraining orders? I dare you to try and find one point of consensus among Fornits users. Ga' head. I dare ya! Double dare ya! Harmlessly passing your time in the grasslands away;
Only dimly aware of a certain unease in the air.
you better watchout,
there may be dogs about.
I've looked over Jordan, and have seen.
Things are not what they seem.
--Roger Waters 1977
_________________
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
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Oh god, Carmel, I can't remember and I won't remember what we used to fight about. I vaguely remember not liking you much early on. And I'm pretty sure it was mutual. But how can either of us be sure who's following whom? I mean, I can't think of anything offhand about which I really disagree with you strongly these days. But who's to say who's the cult leader here? Wouldn't it be a riot if the plebes finally found out that, really, they're not following me, I'm just the Judas Goat leading them to follow you?
To err is human; to forgive is simply not our policy.
-- MIT Assasination Club slogan
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Yeah see? Ginger is just my lackey! :wave:
I feel like Plankton in the Spongebob Movie.
:razz:
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On 2005-11-30 13:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"See, technically you are a follower of Ginger. You tend to side quite often if not always with Ginger and her assessment of things. Has her agenda influenced you or did you have the same agenda and happen to find this site? You're preaching the same ideas as her, thereby perpetuating the agenda (i.e. cult).
This website is far more than an alternate reality. There has been organized physical efforts and demonstrations from this website."
Anon, check this out, please
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?So ... 3&forum=43 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?Sort=U&topic=12843&forum=43)
Now, why is it so damned hard for you guys to believe that we might be competent, clear thinking adults who's views and opinions are valid? Having an uncomfortable boute of cognitive dissonance?
A man is accepted into a church for what he believes and he is turned out for what he knows.
Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist
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On 2005-11-30 20:51:00, Antigen wrote:
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On 2005-11-30 13:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"See, technically you are a follower of Ginger. You tend to side quite often if not always with Ginger and her assessment of things. Has her agenda influenced you or did you have the same agenda and happen to find this site? You're preaching the same ideas as her, thereby perpetuating the agenda (i.e. cult).
This website is far more than an alternate reality. There has been organized physical efforts and demonstrations from this website."
Anon, check this out, please
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?So ... 3&forum=43 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?Sort=U&topic=12843&forum=43)
Now, why is it so damned hard for you guys to believe that we might be competent, clear thinking adults who's views and opinions are valid? Having an uncomfortable boute of cognitive dissonance?
A man is accepted into a church for what he believes and he is turned out for what he knows.
Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist
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I never said anything about your views or opinions not being valid. In fact they are very valid and needed in many respects. My point is that we all belong to many "cults" and we all have our own agendas that overlap a great deal. We need views like yours, and yes even yours Carmel ( :smile: ), and others that may differ to balance this country out. Personally, I don't think if the country was run by all of your views that we would be very safe as a country. On the other hand, it is clear we are not as safe as we could be with this moron as our president and his (or his dad's) agenda. Balance.
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On 2005-12-01 05:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
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On 2005-11-30 20:51:00, Antigen wrote:
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On 2005-11-30 13:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"See, technically you are a follower of Ginger. You tend to side quite often if not always with Ginger and her assessment of things. Has her agenda influenced you or did you have the same agenda and happen to find this site? You're preaching the same ideas as her, thereby perpetuating the agenda (i.e. cult).
This website is far more than an alternate reality. There has been organized physical efforts and demonstrations from this website."
Anon, check this out, please
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?So ... 3&forum=43 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?Sort=U&topic=12843&forum=43)
Now, why is it so damned hard for you guys to believe that we might be competent, clear thinking adults who's views and opinions are valid? Having an uncomfortable boute of cognitive dissonance?
A man is accepted into a church for what he believes and he is turned out for what he knows.
Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist
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I never said anything about your views or opinions not being valid. In fact they are very valid and needed in many respects. My point is that we all belong to many "cults" and we all have our own agendas that overlap a great deal. We need views like yours, and yes even yours Carmel ( :smile: ), and others that may differ to balance this country out. Personally, I don't think if the country was run by all of your views that we would be very safe as a country. On the other hand, it is clear we are not as safe as we could be with this moron as our president and his (or his dad's) agenda. Balance.
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I think this makes sense. However, I still think that you were squirming around this issue trying to create agitation.
If this is how you really feel Anon, you should have just stated so to begin with. Trying to manipulate the discussion into a revelation of your "point" is not needed.
I appreciate your approval in deeming my views "necessary", but wouldnt that make me a cult follower of you according to your viewpoint? See, its things like this that I dont see as relevent. Just because I agree with Ginger or you or anyone does not make me their follower, by way of your own definition of balance Anon.
We can discuss things and agree/disagree without being part of any following. There is no need to force the issue abstractly until it ceases to be meaningful.
[ This Message was edited by: Carmel on 2005-12-01 06:28 ]
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So are we like into an intense debate here or som3thin'?
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On 2005-12-01 06:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
"So are we like into an intense debate here or som3thin'?"
No, it's just Carmel taking herself too seriously again. It's just a discussion the anon put out there. If you don't want to talk about it Carmel, don't. Just shut up and get back on your soapbox.
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On 2005-12-01 06:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
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On 2005-12-01 06:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
"So are we like into an intense debate here or som3thin'?"
No, it's just Carmel taking herself too seriously again. It's just a discussion the anon put out there. If you don't want to talk about it Carmel, don't. Just shut up and get back on your soapbox."
But oh dear, isnt that what I would be doing on my soapbox anyway, talking about it? I guess I will take your advice and get right back up there!
Its JUST a discussion anyway, not like we are taking any of it seriously anyway, right? Tell the original poster that.
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On 2005-12-01 07:17:00, Carmel wrote:
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On 2005-12-01 06:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
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On 2005-12-01 06:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
"So are we like into an intense debate here or som3thin'?"
No, it's just Carmel taking herself too seriously again. It's just a discussion the anon put out there. If you don't want to talk about it Carmel, don't. Just shut up and get back on your soapbox."
But oh dear, isnt that what I would be doing on my soapbox anyway, talking about it? I guess I will take your advice and get right back up there!
Its JUST a discussion anyway, not like we are taking any of it seriously anyway, right? Tell the original poster that."
You're so defensive. I thought it was an interseting topic. But YOU ARE taking it too seriously. Lighten up. Lots of intersesting links were put out there for people to check out. Don't ruin it by being...well..you. :cry2:
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You are the one who became sarcastic and insulting. I WAS discussing the issue previous to that. It is interesting, but it also includes different points of view. Which we all seem to have, this is what makes it interesting. I have agreed and disagreed with several different people in several different ways....last time I checked that is what a discussion was all about.
Maybe you can help me out and tell me what I need to do to take myself less seriously, aside from insulting me. Last time I checked this discussion really didnt have a thing to do with me specifically. Being on a soapbox is all about speaking your piece on something, and
thats what I have done, as you have. It doesnt have to be personal, and thus far personal shots have been all you have made. Get into the discussion if you like, you dont need to put me down in order to do so.
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Oh, no way, am I joining the Lighten up cult!