Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Daytop Village => Topic started by: Anonymous on February 19, 2006, 08:01:00 PM
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Sorry, this post lost
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Sorry, this post lost
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Here Ill post it again.
I cant beleive the DVI bashing that goes on in here. This place saves lives. It saved mine. If you buy into the philosophy which basically is
A) Wake up everymorning
B) respect your body and habitat
c) work
D) over come existensial fear and find meaning for yourself
you'll stay clean
Its not a cult etc
Hey if you were in swan lake or parksville circa 86-88 drop me a line
[email protected]
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If you buy into the philosophy...
...you've got much bigger problems than just substance abuse.
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HI Dysfunction your name says it all by the way, June 06 will be 20 years CLEAN thanks to Daytop. Sorry your still runnin
hopefully you get better one day God Bless ya
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On 2006-02-20 08:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
"HI Dysfunction your name says it all by the way, June 06 will be 20 years CLEAN thanks to Daytop. Sorry your still runnin
hopefully you get better one day God Bless ya"
Sorry you're still under the influence of a cult! :wave:
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What is it you assume he's 'running' from? :roll:
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On 2006-02-20 08:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
"HI Dysfunction your name says it all by the way, June 06 will be 20 years CLEAN thanks to Daytop. Sorry your still runnin
hopefully you get better one day God Bless ya"
Aren't you a pompous ass. I'm not a drug user, dummy. Never was "runnin'" nor will I ever be "runnin'."
The only person runnin' here is you and you're runnin' your mouth, junkie.
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Now that wasn't very nice of you to say DJ. If this person is going to be clean and sober for 20 years I'd say that is quite an accomplishment. I guess Daytop does some good after all. Never said it was for everyone but those of us that were one step from death like I was, it was a lifesaver. Oh and I'm clean and sober over 17 years and I credit what I experienced at Daytop for still being alive. I know you will never understand that DJ but before you want to demean anybody that actually had a good experience at Daytop ponder your own words in another thread. I believe it said something like Let people live their own lives. :wave:
If you want to get together in any exclusive situation and have people love you, fine- but to hang all this desperate sociology on the idea of The Cloud-Guy who has The Big Book, who knows if you've been bad or good- and CARES about any of it- to hang it all on that, folks, is the chimpanzee part of the brain working.
--Frank Zappa, American musician
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On 2006-02-20 17:28:00, odie wrote:
"Now that wasn't very nice of you to say DJ. If this person is going to be clean and sober for 20 years I'd say that is quite an accomplishment. I guess Daytop does some good after all. Never said it was for everyone but those of us that were one step from death like I was, it was a lifesaver. Oh and I'm clean and sober over 17 years and I credit what I experienced at Daytop for still being alive. I know you will never understand that DJ but before you want to demean anybody that actually had a good experience at Daytop ponder your own words in another thread. I believe it said something like Let people live their own lives. :wave: If you want to get together in any exclusive situation and have people love you, fine- but to hang all this desperate sociology on the idea of The Cloud-Guy who has The Big Book, who knows if you've been bad or good- and CARES about any of it- to hang it all on that, folks, is the chimpanzee part of the brain working.
--Frank Zappa, American musician
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I tend to give YOU credit for putting your life together, not Daytop. My opinion is that you succeeded DESPITE Daytop because what they call "treatment" is just maltreatment, not therapy.
So, good job, Odie, I'm proud of you for your accomplishment.
I do get out of whack though when I criticize a program (not a person) that I know very well how it works (from the inside) and someone tells me I'm "still running."
To me that's the ultimate junkie mentality. Total inability to perceive things with objectivity and the desire first to hurt someone else rather than take well deserved pride in your own accomplishment or have any willingness to see there's two sides to the story. That just shows that this guy, for whatever reason, is still living "outside of himself," and really hasn't grown in any way, he's just a junkie without the pipe - the thought process hasn't changed a bit.
This is precisely why I say Daytop is totally unhelpful. After 20 years his mind is no better than the day of his intake.
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On 2006-02-20 17:28:00, odie wrote:
"Now that wasn't very nice of you to say DJ. If this person is going to be clean and sober for 20 years I'd say that is quite an accomplishment. I guess Daytop does some good after all. Never said it was for everyone but those of us that were one step from death like I was, it was a lifesaver. Oh and I'm clean and sober over 17 years and I credit what I experienced at Daytop for still being alive. I know you will never understand that DJ but before you want to demean anybody that actually had a good experience at Daytop ponder your own words in another thread. I believe it said something like Let people live their own lives. :wave: If you want to get together in any exclusive situation and have people love you, fine- but to hang all this desperate sociology on the idea of The Cloud-Guy who has The Big Book, who knows if you've been bad or good- and CARES about any of it- to hang it all on that, folks, is the chimpanzee part of the brain working.
--Frank Zappa, American musician
"
In all fairness to DJ, the guy really was a pompous ass. He sure was making some wild assumptions about his life.
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Hi me again the original poster. Youve uh just explained why you NEVER got it with your junkie w/out the pipe comment good work youve taken step one. Anyone thats sucessfully clean knows that their still a junkie, even if they dont get high anymore. So good job now take it to the next level.
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I don't buy into that crap about once a junkie always a junkie. If you choose to spend the rest of your life in recovery, thats's fine. I choose to look at myself as a recovered addict. If you are not in recovery but a person with a belief system that a junkie will never change, well that's fine too, but that's your opinion.
It only takes a little prescience to understand that we're all fair game for the deeds we condone.
--Antigen
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On 2006-02-21 07:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Hi me again the original poster. Youve uh just explained why you NEVER got it with your junkie w/out the pipe comment good work youve taken step one. Anyone thats sucessfully clean knows that their still a junkie, even if they dont get high anymore. So good job now take it to the next level. "
This is the prime example of exactly why places like Daytop RETARD PERSONAL GROWTH.
"I'm no good and will always be a junkie, even without the pipe."
Thanks, dude, you've just destroyed your own point. Saves me the work.
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In all fairness to DJ, the guy really was a pompous ass. He sure was making some wild assumptions about his life.
Exactly my point about the "dopefiend mentality." What's easier, investing the requisite time to learn the facts or making a wild, invalid assumption? Of course, the junkie takes the easy way - the way that is no challenge to his thoughts or feelings, the assumption. Rather than deal with the problems life presents, they get high and even when sober still have employ the "dopefiend mentality" because it allows them to avoid any effort or introspection. This is precisely my point. He recieved no treatment because his thought proces is just as sick as the day he put down the needle.
This guy proves without a doubt, over and over, that the "treatment" he recieved did nothing except strip his pride to the degree where he can't even allow himself to be proud of his accomplishments because he's "still a junkie" and Daytop did the work, not him.
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On 2006-02-21 08:07:00, odie wrote:
"I don't buy into that crap about once a junkie always a junkie. If you choose to spend the rest of your life in recovery, thats's fine. I choose to look at myself as a recovered addict. If you are not in recovery but a person with a belief system that a junkie will never change, well that's fine too, but that's your opinion.It only takes a little prescience to understand that we're all fair game for the deeds we condone.
--Antigen
"
(http://http://www.2xtreme.net/~stilcho/aa/images/chip.gif)
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On 2006-02-21 08:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
(http://http://www.2xtreme.net/~stilcho/aa/images/chip.gif)"
Take your stepcraft cult and move along. What's being discussed here is really quite over your head. So sorry you've bought into the powerless myth. Life is so much better when you wake up and realize that you actually DO have control over your own life.
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I have six years sobriety. That is 2009 days 9 hours and 42 minute sober! All in spite of being sent away to stupid program. That is 173612568 sober heartbeats! (see hwo far you can take this? :lol: ) sobriety calculator (http://http://www.aahistory.com/days.html) The crazy world of AA/NA.
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On 2006-02-21 08:42:00, Anonymous wrote:
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On 2006-02-21 08:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
(http://http://www.2xtreme.net/~stilcho/aa/images/chip.gif)"
Take your stepcraft cult and move along. What's being discussed here is really quite over your head. So sorry you've bought into the powerless myth. Life is so much better when you wake up and realize that you actually DO have control over your own life."
Well said.
Stepcraft forces one to believe they have no control in their own life. I respect Odie a great deal for breaking from that paradigm and TAKING CREDIT FOR HIS SUCCESS.
I have always bought into the model of "picking yourself up by the bootstraps," not surrender.
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On 2006-02-21 08:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
The crazy cult of AA/NA."
There, fixed that for ya.
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Take your stepcraft cult and move along. What's being discussed here is really quite over your head. So sorry you've bought into the powerless myth. Life is so much better when you wake up and realize that you actually DO have control over your own life.
Yessir masta... me dum and yoo smart.. ill be movin along now sir.. if that pleezes ya masta?
Check your sarcasm detector lame-oid.....
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Hi me again the original poster.
SO what Im pompous that dosent mean im not right. It just seems that you folks that bash just obviously didnt get it and are hurt and bitter. too bad. When your a junkie you dont have control over your own life and need help regaining it or you probably wouldnt be a junkie.
Theres no cult folks been clean 20 years havent seen some on from daytop or been in a facility in 15 so there goes your cult theories it saves lifes. If people tht do actually need help read this crap you people post and are disuaded from going into treatment and die, then you folks are actually the cult.
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SO what Im pompous that dosent mean im not right. It just seems that you folks that bash just obviously didnt get it and are hurt and bitter. too bad. When your a junkie you dont have control over your own life and need help regaining it or you probably wouldnt be a junkie.
One more time for the half-wit junkie...
I am not a drug user. I have never been a resident at Daytop. I am a professional therapist and worked at Daytop and consequently probably know a lot more about drug treatment and Daytop than you ever will. ::bangin::
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To the baghead that insisted on putting a 5 year recovery coin on here its fine that you need a materialistic symbol to reinforce to yourself that you are clean that long. However not everyone sees AA/NA as a solution. As a matter of fact some courts have written opinions that they are indeed religious programs despite all the rhetoric you here from them saying they aren't. Just hit up any search engine for AA and legal decisions and you can see for yourself.Oh and if get a resentment over what I'm saying, it's probably because you are so early in your so called recovery and don't understand what humility is. Practice your 10th step and call your sponsor. :wave:
I can very well do without God both in my life and in my painting, but I cannot, suffering as I am, do without something which is greater than I am, which is my life, the power to create.
--Vincent Van Gogh, Dutch painter
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On 2006-02-21 09:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Hi me again the original poster.
SO what Im pompous that dosent mean im not right.
True. The fact that you don't know shit about DJ or the true meaning of Stepcraft means you're not right.
It just seems that you folks that bash just obviously didnt get it and are hurt and bitter.
Yeah, all you cultists belive that. Anyone who dares question your dogma is automatically pegged as 'hurt and bitter'. Far from it babycakes.
When your a junkie you dont have control over your own life and need help regaining it or you probably wouldnt be a junkie.
Huh wha?
Theres no cult folks been clean 20 years havent seen some on from daytop or been in a facility in 15 so there goes your cult theories it saves lifes.
You just carry around you magic token for kicks, right? Wake up! AA/NA/SA/XA....all the same shit, uses all the same cult tactics.
If people tht do actually need help read this crap you people post and are disuaded from going into treatment and die, then you folks are actually the cult. "
Nope, we're the ones pointing out that they don't have to be deemed "powerless". We're the ones giving them back their freedom.
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Hi me again expalin how your giving them freedom by keeping them out of treatment? And dysfunction your really kidding yourself thinking your a counselor what a joke. You cant teach what you dont know.
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On 2006-02-21 12:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Hi me again expalin how your giving them freedom by keeping them out of treatment? And dysfunction your really kidding yourself thinking your a counselor what a joke. You cant teach what you dont know. "
I think it's time to start your threads with " Me high again" instead of " Hi me again" because I starting to get the impression your hitting the pipe again with these delusional rantings. As far as DJ's credentials as a counselor, I have no doubt he is an excellent one. As men's prayers are a disease of the will, so are their creeds a disease of the intellect.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson, American essayist, poet, philosopher
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On 2006-02-21 12:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Hi me again expalin how your giving them freedom by keeping them out of treatment? And dysfunction your really kidding yourself thinking your a counselor what a joke. You cant teach what you dont know. "
The problem is that you're stuck in the thinking that "counselor" means "phony, high and mighty active addict/drunk that screams in my face instead of working with me to address the underlying issues that feed my drug addiction."
There is nothing therapeutic about Daytop's program. You get verbally abused and berated, humiliated and given mixed messages. Whether or not you succeed is totally up to how much abuse you can take and still function.
Daytop's success rate is roughly the same as no intervention at all and far lower than prison. You would have had a better chance at success by being locked up. Go figure.
I'm trying not to get into it too much with you though, man. You're painfully ignorant and I don't have time to hip you to the facts.
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:wstupid: very appropriate
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Hip me to the facts of what? You cant stand the fact that daytop works and you spent however much money time effort on your degree to be a "counselor" I was NEVER abused once ever. And yeah there were 2 or 3 "counselors" that came in with degrees in the time I was there none of them lasted more then a month which is typical its like sending Lebron James to go play for the New York Rangers. Aint gonna work.
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I'm sure they didn't last. Anyone with ACTUAL credentials as a counselor would recognize the kind of crap Daytop dishes out as nothing more than cultish rhetoric.
You're outwitted, outclassed and outdone. :wave:
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On 2006-02-21 12:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I'm sure they didn't last. Anyone with ACTUAL credentials as a counselor would recognize the kind of crap Daytop dishes out as nothing more than cultish rhetoric.
You're outwitted, outclassed and outdone. :wave: "
That's spot on accurate. Anybody with a degree and/or an ounce of professionalism left Daytop very quickly. There's no science to their method. Not even junk science.
From the perspective of professional mental health care, the Daytop program is absolutely worthless for anything except fostering dependence upon itself and creating "lifelong junkies" incapable of meaningful personal change.
I watched people there that began as counselors by graduating the program and were completely vested in its methods. Some later went on to get an education in mental health. The ones that became properly educated left immediately because they were exposed to facts about mental hygiene that they quickly realized were diametrically opposed to Daytop's dogma.
The bottom line is that if one understands the ethical responsibility of a mental health provider, one cannot philosophically justify employment at Daytop. It's really that simple. Only uneducated unprofessional hacks espouse Daytop's methodology. They quite simply don't know any better (like this dummy, the "original poster").
If ignorance is bliss, the "original poster" is a very happy fellow.
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You cant stand the fact that daytop works
ANYTHING that is ethical and humane and that reduces people's suffering I would support wholeheartedly.
If, in fact, Daytop did work (which it doesn't and has been proven not to), I would support it as well.
What you are saying is that I, someone who devoted my resources to become educated and worked in a helping profession, would "hate" someone being helped. It just doesn't get any more idiotic than that.
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On 2006-02-21 12:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
" Hip me to the facts of what? You cant stand the fact that daytop works and you spent however much money time effort on your degree to be a "counselor" I was NEVER abused once ever. And yeah there were 2 or 3 "counselors" that came in with degrees in the time I was there none of them lasted more then a month which is typical its like sending Lebron James to go play for the New York Rangers. Aint gonna work. "
As a counselor with Daytop for over 10 years I have witnessed first hand the abuse handed out by staff members. I have seen first hand the abuse by senior staff on educated professionals. The one thing that Daytop has is a never ending wealth of residents that become staff and are blinded by misguided loyalty. The problem with recovering staff has always been the same. They are petrified by the knowledge of professional staff. It is only the few like myself that actually did the foot work and gained the same education that the professional staff have that have prospered in life.All contemporary religions and churches, all and every kind of religious organization, Marxism has always viewed as organs of bourgeois reaction, serving as a defense of exploitation and the doping of the working-classes.
--Nikolai Lenin, Russian revolutionary
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Funny how everyone seems to attack DJ but they shy away from me. Can it be that I know the truth about Daytop? To the baghead who says he was never abused at Daytop I say either you lived in a bubble or didn't realize how abused you were. My first hand knowledge from both the view of a resident and a staff member spans the years 1988-2000. I worked in 6 different facilities in that time, both adult and adolescent. I've read a lot of the abuse on here handed down by Frank Lanza but I know facts about situations that make Frank look like a choirboy. I challenge anyone to prove me wrong but the facts remain and nobody will.
We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.
-- Ben Franklin At the signing of the Declaration of Independence, July 4, 1776.
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Funny how everyone seems to attack DJ...
I'm everyone's favorite abuse dummy. Now you know why I can get so obstreperous!
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality."
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2006-02-21 15:40 ]
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Hi its me the blissful sober one again. The counselors that went through and invested etc...had one thing missing they were never "out there" you cant go to school for that, and thats probably a good thing. I dont think its right that you folks are trying to put down, trash flame whatever you wanna call it something that worked for me and alot alot of other people I know becuase you may be stopping someone somewhere from getting anykind of treatment at all. You talk of statistics and dont bring up the stats of other theraputic methods only Daytop why? Is it because they are on par? Probably. will you me or anyone ever know the true stats of daytops or any others success probably never. Theres some people out there that "split" DVI and stayed staright taking with them some piece of what they learned. Most didnt unfortunately so we'll never know whose method is better more successful etc... And for what its worth I was the KING of being obstreperous, I didnt live in a bubble at all, I was front and center in your face all day the entire time I was there from entry to graduation there were things and methods I didnt agree with and let it be known what the problem or issue was and worked with the proper people to either resole or agree to diagree and I was never once abused by anyone ever. Tell me what your problems are with Daytop let me try to explain these things to you from a successful non connected point of view. Again I have not been in contact with any one from DVI in over 15 years. Maybe I can help you get over these fears or whatever it is that has you preventing people from getting proper or any treatment. I wonder how many people that needed help read your boards didnt get treatment and died, I wonder were the compassionate humanistic qualities are in that. And by the way its very funny how both your avatars characters are green...perhaps a subconsious tip of the hat to envy?!!? hmmm
Ok lay it on me let me explain to you straight folks how a junkie gets clean for good. Come on kiddies step right up I'll get you a degree free, just like the BS I got in Management while i was in Daytop...free by the way...!
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On 2006-02-21 16:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Hi its me the blissful sober one again. The counselors that went through and invested etc...had one thing missing they were never "out there" you cant go to school for that, and thats probably a good thing. I dont think its right that you folks are trying to put down, trash flame whatever you wanna call it something that worked for me and alot alot of other people I know becuase you may be stopping someone somewhere from getting anykind of treatment at all. You talk of statistics and dont bring up the stats of other theraputic methods only Daytop why? Is it because they are on par? Probably. will you me or anyone ever know the true stats of daytops or any others success probably never. Theres some people out there that "split" DVI and stayed staright taking with them some piece of what they learned. Most didnt unfortunately so we'll never know whose method is better more successful etc... And for what its worth I was the KING of being obstreperous, I didnt live in a bubble at all, I was front and center in your face all day the entire time I was there from entry to graduation there were things and methods I didnt agree with and let it be known what the problem or issue was and worked with the proper people to either resole or agree to diagree and I was never once abused by anyone ever. Tell me what your problems are with Daytop let me try to explain these things to you from a successful non connected point of view. Again I have not been in contact with any one from DVI in over 15 years. Maybe I can help you get over these fears or whatever it is that has you preventing people from getting proper or any treatment. I wonder how many people that needed help read your boards didnt get treatment and died, I wonder were the compassionate humanistic qualities are in that. And by the way its very funny how both your avatars characters are green...perhaps a subconsious tip of the hat to envy?!!? hmmm
Ok lay it on me let me explain to you straight folks how a junkie gets clean for good. Come on kiddies step right up I'll get you a degree free, just like the BS I got in Management while i was in Daytop...free by the way...!"
Let me try to break down this dribble very simply because it is unfortunately the mindset of many Daytopians. The fact that many professional staff haven't been "out there" only proves that they know how to lead a prosperous life and can teach others the right way of living. I once asked how do you know how I feel if you haven't been out there and the answer was quite simple. Feelings are universal. Just because a person didn't have the same experiences that I had doesn't mean they can't identify with feelings. It's how we behave as a result of feelings that makes the difference. Who else but someone that can deal with these feelings appropriately is able to teach those that can't or rather choose not to?
As far as the green avitar goes they didn't have one of odie so I chose Shrek because of his personality which happens to be a lot like mine. :wave: If there is a God, he is a malign thug.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist
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And by the way its very funny how both your avatars characters are green...perhaps a subconsious tip of the hat to envy?!!? hmmm
Dude, you are definitely STILL GETTING HIGH. You got a BS in something alright, Bull Shitting.
Why on earth would anybody be jealous of a halfway literate idiot? Get a grip, black.
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I'll find you an Odie Avatar. Your never going to be able to explain/justify that so, because you know how to deal with feelings or so you say (now Im not being sarcastic here follow me a second) dosent mean you can "counsel" others on how to do it, especially if youve never experienced the feelings theyve encountered.
on to the next point, what about the people that are disuaded from treatment by seeing these post.
Now I have seen people die lots of them while in DVI my best friend had an anyurism (sic) in the middle of the night and was gone (RIP Cooter) many died of aids/hiv as it was 1986 and not much was known about the disease back then, however I have never heard of Daytop actually killing anyone. If you prevent someone from getting treatment and they die you might as well be an accesory to murder. And for the record Im not black im usually indigo with crimson stipes and white stars too bad that other guy isnt (not you Odie or DJ.) By the way odie wink once if your name is Brian.
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No my name isn't Brian but it was my friend Brian that committed suicide. He was the victim and patsy of a cover up of mostrous proportions of abuse allegations that were being investigated because of a resident that complained directly to the Archbishop of NY, who just happened to be the Monsignor's boss. I personally witnessed this coverup. It was amazing to watch all these so called role models lied through their teeth at things that were happening over the years.
Save our planet; it's the only one with chocolate!
--Andi, domestic goddess
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Ya know what Odie, don't even bother. This guy is either a troll or just so drunk on the Koolaid that he's lost all capacity for critical thought and compassion. Reminds me of the nurse that stood around and watched the kid die over in Bay County.
btw Odie. Nice to see you here. All this new blood flowing around is really great. This fight has been going on too long and some of us are growing old and weary but I feel the tide a-turning people. Slowly but surely America may be waking up! :smile:
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Sorry about your friend but suicide and murder are 2 completly different things. TOo bad you guys are so vengful and cant carry on a conversation youve proved your points again and again that being you have no idea what your talking about so take care stay clean and keep comming back.
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On 2006-02-21 16:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Hi its me the blissfully ignorant[/b] sober one again.
The counselors that went through and invested etc...had one thing missing they were never "out there" you cant go to school for that, and thats probably a good thing.
What? What the hell does that mean? :roll:
I didnt live in a bubble at all,
You're still there pal, belive me.
Tell me what your problems are with Daytop let me try to explain these things to you from a successful non connected point of view.
Non-connected?
Maybe I can help you get over these fears or whatever it is that has you preventing people from getting proper or any treatment.
No one asked for or needs your help.
I wonder how many people that needed help read your boards didnt get treatment and died,
I wonder how many kids lives and psyches have been saved by parents reading here and seeing the truth of these places?
I wonder were the compassionate humanistic qualities are in that.
I wonder where those qualities are at all in the teen treatment industry.
And by the way its very funny how both your avatars characters are green...perhaps a subconsious tip of the hat to envy?!!?
You really are sad.
Ok lay it on me let me explain to you straight folks how a junkie gets clean for good. Come on kiddies step right up I'll get you a degree free, just like the BS I got in Management while i was in Daytop...free by the way...!"
and deluded.
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the BS I got in Management while i was in Daytop...free by the way...!
Free? No, it wasn't free. It was paid for through tax dollars collected from taxpayers like myself and given to Daytop by the government.
Don't thank Daytop, thank productive taxpaying members of our society without whom you would have not been able to afford education.
And now you're here disparaging the ones who paid for your education. Lovely. :roll:
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On 2006-02-22 06:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
" Sorry about your friend but suicide and murder are 2 completly different things. TOo bad you guys are so vengful and cant carry on a conversation youve proved your points again and again that being you have no idea what your talking about so take care stay clean and keep comming back.
"
And just would you call the incident about 5 years ago in California where a kid was in Daytop, told them he was contemplating suicide, ran away from the facility, and killed himself?
Keep coming back? LOL I stopped going to those religious cults ages ago....it is worth discussing radical changes, not in the expectation that they will be adopted promptly but for two other reasons. One is to construct an ideal goal, so that incremental changes can be judged by whether they move the institutional structure toward or away from that ideal. The other reason is very different. It is so that if a crisis requiring or facilitating radical change does arise, alternatives will be available that have been carefully developed and fully explored."
Milton Friedman
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You cant blame Daytop because the kid split and killed himself. Once he splits he's are on his own. I saw a suicide attempt while in there and the person was immediately moved to psychiatric care and properly handled. Obviously if your a junkie your already suicidal but you wouldnt understand that having never been one.
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On 2006-02-22 09:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
" You cant blame Daytop because the kid split and killed himself.
Oh yes you can! If a kid actually DID have a problem before entering Daytop it's just made worse. If they DON'T have a problem before entering, they do when they leave.
Once he splits he's are on his own.
What about all those wonderful things he took away from Daytop??
Obviously if your a junkie your already suicidal
Not true at all.
but you wouldnt understand that having never been one."
You have no idea who you're talking to. Hooked for eight years, physically, ended it with NO help from a fucking program.
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On 2006-02-22 09:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
" You cant blame Daytop because the kid split and killed himself. Once he splits he's are on his own. I saw a suicide attempt while in there and the person was immediately moved to psychiatric care and properly handled. Obviously if your a junkie your already suicidal but you wouldnt understand that having never been one."
Are you serious or what? Daytop was told by the kid that he was thinking about suicide and they did nothing to prevent it. To use the lame excuse that just because he didn't kill himself on the facility they are not at fault is pure ignorance. They had an ethical obligation to do something but did not. They know that it is human nature to take up causes whereby a man may oppress his neighbor, no matter how unjustly. ... Hence they have had no trouble in finding men who would preach the damnability and heresy of the new doctrine from the very pulpit.
--Galileo Galilei, Italian astronomer
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Again if your a junkie and you know its bad for you and can kill, you then your suicidal if you continue to use it knowing you can die. I was there for 3 years if I had a quater for everyone who said they were gonna kill themselves i'd make bill gates look like a homeless person.
You guys are miserable , still using junkies too bad.
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Wow...you really are something. What have you done with your life since you left? Married? Kids? job?
Or just still a junkie w/out a needle?
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On 2006-02-22 11:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Again if your a junkie and you know its bad for you and can kill, you then your suicidal if you continue to use it knowing you can die. I was there for 3 years if I had a quater for everyone who said they were gonna kill themselves i'd make bill gates look like a homeless person.
You guys are miserable , still using junkies too bad.
"
Dude, you're just an idiot, plain and simple. You haven't made a single intelligent point to illustrate your position. All you do is come on here and call clean and sober people "still using junkies." It sounds like a pure projection to me.
BTW, why is your self image so poor that you an only feel good by trying to make others feel bad? You're pretty pathetic, man.
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I Agree man...You seem angry at life and take it out on people you don't know. What gives you the right to call other people miserable junkies?
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Im not angry at all except that you folks may be preventing someone from getting treatment they need and deserve. Your trying to tell people that getting NO help is better then going into daytop...??? What kind of logic is that...It better to be just about ANYWHERE then be out there "runnin" (that means still using drugs for all you "counselors" out there). And now that Ive looked around these boards a little I see its a pro-using sight and thats too bad. And yes Im very successful with a wife and children with a LARGE house, built in pool fireplace etc so I have done lots since Ive graduated. Your the ones that are angry and projecting, im calling it as I see it I was there 3 years from entry to graduation, Im not some fly by night splitee posting comments cause they could face their demons and existensial fears. It'll be 20 years w/out DOPE and I do mean Dope in June of 06. 20 Years you cant argue with that.
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So you got some big management job with the degree you earned in Daytop...that what gives you your "I'm better than all of you" attitude.
I feel sorry for your wife and kids...a big house with a pool can't make up for living with someone's angery uncompassionate outlook on life.
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We aren't saying not to seek treatment. We are saying that Daytop over the years abused and humiliated people by their techniques. How can we believe that all this has somehow changed when you have the same people running things that were in charge way back when you were there? I'll give some examples of the techniques that were used that you may be familiar with.
1. Having grown men carrying around 6 foot baby rattles and confronted on why they act like a baby because they may have over reacted to someone.
2. Having women working in the garden using only hoes as a symbol that they acted like ho's.
3. Depriving people of sleep by forcing them to stay in marathon groups for 3 days facilitated by staff that were only clean sometimes a few more months then they were.
4. Shaving heads.
5. Having people move rock piles from one end of the facility to the other.
These are only a few of the techniques used by untrained, unqualified staff to "help" people with their substance abuse problems. I personally knew staff that went home at night just trying to think of ways to fuck with peoples minds. Most of these counselors eventually relapsed anyways which always became an embarassment to those who actually cared and were doing the right thing. Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.
--Mark Twain
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So you got some big management job with the degree you earned in Daytop...
I have serious doubts that this is even true. I mean this guy admits he's still a junkie, just without the needle.
What does that leave? A feeble-minded, weak, projecting, denying, lying loser with an attitude problem.
I bet this guy even has a hard time getting himself dressed in clean clothes and taking care of basic hygiene needs. If he was successful and secure he wouldn't need to come on here and pretend to be better than people who actually DO have their shit together.
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So not true there you guys go again no defense so you attack. tsk tsk tsk.
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On 2006-02-22 14:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"So not true there you guys go again no defense so you attack. tsk tsk tsk."
Defense for what? I have nothing to defend myself for. I've helped hundreds of clients learn to live a better way WITHOUT abusing and humiliating them. What's to be defensive about?
I really do think that you just don't have the cognitive horsepower to understand that. You have a very weak mind that isn't really capable of higher thought and reasoning. It's that simple. You're just too ignorant to know any better or to realize that there is REAL treatment that REALLY works without the abusive bullshit.
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On 2006-02-22 12:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
Your trying to tell people that getting NO help is better then going into daytop...???
Yep.
What kind of logic is that...It better to be just about ANYWHERE then be out there "runnin" (that means still using drugs for all you "counselors" out there).
You're assuming that anyone that uses drugs is "running". Why would you assume that?
And now that Ive looked around these boards a little I see its a pro-using sight and thats too bad.
No, it's a pro-freedom site. There are people here who think drugs should be legalized and people who don't. Both sides of the issue are discussed. Obviously you have a problem with the concept of debating an issue.
And yes Im very successful with a wife and children with a LARGE house, built in pool fireplace etc so I have done lots since Ive graduated.
Goody for you, me too. But I've got all that and more all the while being able to enjoy a drink or two or a joint or two. Sorry if you can't handle that.
Your the ones that are angry
yes, we get quite angry at the abuse of teenagers.
im calling it as I see it
No, you're calling it as you'd like to see it.
I was there 3 years from entry to graduation, Im not some fly by night splitee posting comments cause they could face their demons and existensial fears.
Guess the academic part of Daytop wasn't exactly top notch huh?
It'll be 20 years w/out DOPE and I do mean Dope in June of 06.
you say that like you're the only one who ever accomplished that. You're not and tons of us do it every day without benefit of a program.
20 Years you cant argue with that. "
No, I can't argue with the fact that you've been off dope for 20 years but I can argue what caused this change.
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On 2006-02-22 14:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"So not true there you guys go again no defense so you attack. tsk tsk tsk."
Some more unethical techniques.
1. Residents being in treatment close to a year without a treatment plan.
2. Primary Counselors seeing their clients for 10 minutes then documenting that they saw them for an hour.
3 Clients meeting with their counselors 3 times in nine months.
4. Staff burning the midnight oil to fudge clinical records to say they were actually seeing clients 1 hour weekly ( this generally happens just before a licensing review )
5. Uneducated and unlicensed staff facilitating sexuality probe groups of residents. Even if they were credentialed alcohol and drug counselors this would be outside the scope of their practice.
I'm just getting warmed up. :wave: For more than a hundred years much complaint has been made of the unmethodical way in which schools are conducted...with what result? Schools remain exactly as they were.
--Comenius,1632
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Daytop advocates need to wake up and smell the java. Some people thank a religion for sobriety. Some thank AA/NA. And some people thank places like Daytop. This is how controlling institutions stay in business. Other posters are correct. If someone achieves sobriety, that person should thank the self. Without individual effort, there is no sobriety.
I worked at Daytop for 2 years, ADU, during the late 90's. Following that experience, I obtained my MSW. During job interviews, despite other job experiences, I ALWAYS get questioned about Daytop. Potential employers often make skeptical comments regarding that part of my employment history. They try to gauge if I am 'one of those types' of counselors. If Daytop is such a pillar of quality treatment, then why do MOST social service agencies and respected professionals regard it is an abusive institution?
If I presented as a typical Daytop counselor / staff, I would not be in my current position as a Director of a Battered Women's Program. I would not have a successful private practice. And I would not be teaching at a local college. Screaming at clients and telling them they are "pieces of shit" is not considered sound clinical treatment. The Daytop methods are not respected within the greater human services community.
Make no mistake about it. Daytop stays in business because of the War on Drugs. The Republicans (like George Pataki) use Daytop as an extention of the prison system. Those folks don't care how drug users / offenders are "treated".
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On 2006-03-07 11:24:00, animuscitizen wrote:
"Daytop advocates need to wake up and smell the java. Some people thank a religion for sobriety. Some thank AA/NA. And some people thank places like Daytop. This is how controlling institutions stay in business. Other posters are correct. If someone achieves sobriety, that person should thank the self. Without individual effort, there is no sobriety.
I worked at Daytop for 2 years, ADU, during the late 90's. Following that experience, I obtained my MSW. During job interviews, despite other job experiences, I ALWAYS get questioned about Daytop. Potential employers often make skeptical comments regarding that part of my employment history. They try to gauge if I am 'one of those types' of counselors. If Daytop is such a pillar of quality treatment, then why do MOST social service agencies and respected professionals regard it is an abusive institution?
If I presented as a typical Daytop counselor / staff, I would not be in my current position as a Director of a Battered Women's Program. I would not have a successful private practice. And I would not be teaching at a local college. Screaming at clients and telling them they are "pieces of shit" is not considered sound clinical treatment. The Daytop methods are not respected within the greater human services community.
Make no mistake about it. Daytop stays in business because of the War on Drugs. The Republicans (like George Pataki) use Daytop as an extention of the prison system. Those folks don't care how drug users / offenders are "treated"."
Cheers. Well said. Welcome (although I think you may be the same anon "sister" I was talking to earlier - if so, welcome back).
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Just a tidbit about the political influences that Daytop has always had in its pocket. It's the Democrats and not the Republicans that keep pouring money into this place.
Emotions rule the world; Is it any wonder that it's so mucked up?!
Bill Warbis
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On 2006-03-07 12:13:00, odie wrote:
"Just a tidbit about the political influences that Daytop has always had in its pocket. It's the Democrats and not the Republicans that keep pouring money into this place.Emotions rule the world; Is it any wonder that it's so mucked up?!
http://www.theempirejournal.com/New_Fol ... _Costs.htm (http://www.theempirejournal.com/New_Folder/Bruno_Drug_Diversion_Program_Follows_Excessive_Medicaid_Costs.htm)
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This link talks about Father O'Brien's strong ties with the Republican party.
http://www.theempirejournal.com/New_Fol ... Probes.htm (http://www.theempirejournal.com/New_Folder/oasas_road_to_recovery_headed_by_Bruno's_Brother_Target_For_Ethics_Medicaid_Probes.htm)
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Lets pleasure my balls.. :lol:
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On 2006-03-16 12:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Lets pleasure my balls.. :lol: "
Is that you, Father O'Brien?
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I beg to differ:
http://www.theempirejournal.com/New_Fol ... _Costs.htm (http://www.theempirejournal.com/New_Folder/Bruno_Drug_Diversion_Program_Follows_Excessive_Medicaid_Costs.htm)"
Really don't see how you can say its the republicans that are pouring money into this program based on this story. Lets look at this Better Business Report from 2004 and see how much they took in that year. I'd say that amount from youhttp://www.newyork.bbb.org/reports/c ... ls&id=339r (http://youhttp://www.newyork.bbb.org/reports/charityreports.aspx?pid=287&action=details&id=339r) story is pretty low considering the facts.If there is a God, he is a malign thug.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist
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http://www.newyork.bbb.org/reports/char ... ils&id=339 (http://www.newyork.bbb.org/reports/charityreports.aspx?pid=287&action=details&id=339)
There is something feeble and contemptible about a man who cannot face life without the help of comfortable myths.
--Bertrand Russell, British philosopher, educator, mathemetician, and social critic
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I have been searching for a forum to find alumni from Swan Lake (85*87). I wanted to try and reconnect with some of my peers (Sober Peers). I am really shocked to see a website such as this. Everyone is entitled to there opinion in regard to TC's, AA or which ever way you choose to get sober. I am thankful to Daytop for many things! The most important, I finally got it! Yes, the tactics were harsh. But it could not have been any worse than being out there and being sick and tired.
I came from a great family. I had the world at my finger tips. But continued on such a path of distruction, like everyone else that has ever entered treatment. That path led me to Daytop and I came out on top and carried the tools that I needed to reach my life goals with me. I was the youngest person to enter Swan Lake at that time (17 going on 18). I met people that were not my reality and met people the will always be in my heart! I am sure there are many that are not straight, (still getting high)! I hope they find peace and happiness. For myself!! I am proud of myself, all that I have accomplished... love,faith, hope, children.
I met my husband in Daytop. He is my bestfriend, the best husband and father I could have asked for!!
We never lost sight of were we came from!! Just to make sure we do not go back.
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3/10
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3/10
you missed the mark here, MGDP. these daytopians are BY FAR the most programmed of the programmies. this lady actually believes what she's saying, as if wearing a toilet seat around her neck and a sign that says "confront me. i'm a whore" is TREATMENT for drug addiction.
daytop is a fucking joke run by drunks and addicts that can't keep their OWN bloodstream clean, much less help others do the same...
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DID YOU FUCK UP YOUR TREATMENT
ARE YOU A GENERAL FUCK UP
THEN BLAME DAYTOP FOR YOUR FAILURE
WHAT A BUNCH OF PUSSYS!!!
20 YEARS CLEAN AND SOBER THANKS TO DAYTOP!!!
contact me at [email protected]
if you were in swan lake circa 86-88
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sadly they didn't help you with being so stupid and arrogant. you should try to work on that.
is your name "savage" or "sewage"?
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DID YOU FUCK UP YOUR TREATMENT
ARE YOU A GENERAL FUCK UP
THEN BLAME DAYTOP FOR YOUR FAILURE
WHAT A BUNCH OF PUSSYS!!!
20 YEARS CLEAN AND SOBER THANKS TO DAYTOP!!!
This post speaks for itself..... doesn't it? I will not tell this person that he is wrong. Rather I will offer this person as an example of a quintessentail spokeperson for Daytop. I will offer him as an archetype of the Daytop atitude. This short post, to me embodies the Daytop philosophy and temperament.
He has indeed succeeded in Daytop. And I am not saying that jokingly. He puts down those who have 'fucked up their treatment'. I honestly do beleive that he was a great success at Daytop. And again, I am not being funny, but quite serious when I say this is wfat a Daytop success story looks like.
I am certain that he did excellent while in Daytop, but then why wouldn t Daytop use someone like him to advertise their program? Why is something to this effect not on the frint page of the Daaytop website? Why is this type of stuff not on their pamphlets? Why do they not talk like this when they visit schools? Afterall, it is the general atitude and philosophy behind their practices.
Perhaps, because it would rub people the wrong way..
Perhaps, because to the genral public it would be considerred distasteful and rancorous...
So instead they save all this type shit for when you get inside.
What they advertise is long lasting friendships, personal growth, self-responsibility, and an 85% success rating in it's customers acieving a drug free life.
mcDonald's advertises hamburgers, and when you go there you get a hamburger. Home depot advertsies hardware, and when you go there, you find that they are all about hardware.
What about Daytop? I think that somewhere in all Daytop's advertisning about growth and such, they should in clude a part where they say, " and this is how we do it, because we beleive this works", and after that have a copy of this post, along with the posts of many other venemous Daytop protectors, to show what it's all about.
But I suppose that that is not very likely, short of this country regressing 100 years.
Something I never liked about Daytop is that they don t offer freedom from addiction, but rather a mechanism to create sobriety- a bulky unnecessary add on.
... and that in order for an individual or institution to consistantly carry ouy these actions, the underlying philosohpy in place in the individual or institution is that the person is axiomatically flawed and requires something external from natural reality to be good or OK, which is complete non sense.
As they often said in Daytop: " Every single one of you is and always will be a dope feine, no matter how well you do in this program or how long you stay sober"
So, I guess in their veiw, every one of is by nature bad or insufficient, except of course Daytop who will come along and save you from your self, if you only just allow it to.
First they feed you the bullshit idea that you are by nature flawed or incapable, fundamentally and permanently, and then they contradict their own bullshit idea, by telling you that a body of people just like yourself, can help you. That is if you define Daytop as the people who run it. And if not what is Daytop? I think they want us to beleive it is magic. The further you peel down into their philosophy, the more you see their are no real answers, just dead ends and contradiction, and circular logic.
This is how I thought of Daytop while I was in it. When I was 16, I was into philosophy and logic, and although I had more then my fair share of problems, I fundamentally was a strong lover of life, goodness, vitality, spirit and all that great shit. I suppose that combination was the reason I found Daytop so intolerable, and I was in a group that numberred few.
Paul St. John
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DID YOU FUCK UP YOUR TREATMENT
ARE YOU A GENERAL FUCK UP
THEN BLAME DAYTOP FOR YOUR FAILURE
WHAT A BUNCH OF PUSSYS!!!
20 YEARS CLEAN AND SOBER THANKS TO DAYTOP!!!
This post speaks for itself..... doesn't it? I will not tell this person that he is wrong. Rather I will offer this person as an example of a quintessentail spokeperson for Daytop. I will offer him as an archetype of the Daytop atitude. This short post, to me embodies the Daytop philosophy and temperament.
He has indeed succeeded in Daytop. And I am not saying that jokingly. He puts down those who have 'fucked up their treatment'. I honestly do beleive that he was a great success at Daytop. And again, I am not being funny, but quite serious when I say this is wfat a Daytop success story looks like.
I am certain that he did excellent while in Daytop, but then why wouldn t Daytop use someone like him to advertise their program? Why is something to this effect not on the frint page of the Daaytop website? Why is this type of stuff not on their pamphlets? Why do they not talk like this when they visit schools? Afterall, it is the general atitude and philosophy behind their practices.
Perhaps, because it would rub people the wrong way..
Perhaps, because to the genral public it would be considerred distasteful and rancorous...
So instead they save all this type shit for when you get inside.
What they advertise is long lasting friendships, personal growth, self-responsibility, and an 85% success rating in it's customers acieving a drug free life.
mcDonald's advertises hamburgers, and when you go there you get a hamburger. Home depot advertsies hardware, and when you go there, you find that they are all about hardware.
What about Daytop? I think that somewhere in all Daytop's advertisning about growth and such, they should in clude a part where they say, " and this is how we do it, because we beleive this works", and after that have a copy of this post, along with the posts of many other venemous Daytop protectors, to show what it's all about.
But I suppose that that is not very likely, short of this country regressing 100 years.
Something I never liked about Daytop is that they don t offer freedom from addiction, but rather a mechanism to create sobriety- a bulky unnecessary add on.
... and that in order for an individual or institution to consistantly carry ouy these actions, the underlying philosohpy in place in the individual or institution is that the person is axiomatically flawed and requires something external from natural reality to be good or OK, which is complete non sense.
As they often said in Daytop: " Every single one of you is and always will be a dope feine, no matter how well you do in this program or how long you stay sober"
So, I guess in their veiw, every one of is by nature bad or insufficient, except of course Daytop who will come along and save you from your self, if you only just allow it to.
First they feed you the bullshit idea that you are by nature flawed or incapable, fundamentally and permanently, and then they contradict their own bullshit idea, by telling you that a body of people just like yourself, can help you. That is if you define Daytop as the people who run it. And if not what is Daytop? I think they want us to beleive it is magic. The further you peel down into their philosophy, the more you see their are no real answers, just dead ends and contradiction, and circular logic.
This is how I thought of Daytop while I was in it. When I was 16, I was into philosophy and logic, and although I had more then my fair share of problems, I fundamentally was a strong lover of life, goodness, vitality, spirit and all that great shit. I suppose that combination was the reason I found Daytop so intolerable, and I was in a group that numberred few.
Paul St. John
-
DID YOU FUCK UP YOUR TREATMENT
ARE YOU A GENERAL FUCK UP
THEN BLAME DAYTOP FOR YOUR FAILURE
WHAT A BUNCH OF PUSSYS!!!
20 YEARS CLEAN AND SOBER THANKS TO DAYTOP!!!
This post speaks for itself..... doesn't it? I will not tell this person that he is wrong. Rather I will offer this person as an example of a quintessentail spokeperson for Daytop. I will offer him as an archetype of the Daytop atitude. This short post, to me embodies the Daytop philosophy and temperament.
He has indeed succeeded in Daytop. And I am not saying that jokingly. He puts down those who have 'fucked up their treatment'. I honestly do beleive that he was a great success at Daytop. And again, I am not being funny, but quite serious when I say this is wfat a Daytop success story looks like.
I am certain that he did excellent while in Daytop, but then why wouldn t Daytop use someone like him to advertise their program? Why is something to this effect not on the frint page of the Daaytop website? Why is this type of stuff not on their pamphlets? Why do they not talk like this when they visit schools? Afterall, it is the general atitude and philosophy behind their practices.
Perhaps, because it would rub people the wrong way..
Perhaps, because to the genral public it would be considerred distasteful and rancorous...
So instead they save all this type shit for when you get inside.
What they advertise is long lasting friendships, personal growth, self-responsibility, and an 85% success rating in it's customers acieving a drug free life.
mcDonald's advertises hamburgers, and when you go there you get a hamburger. Home depot advertsies hardware, and when you go there, you find that they are all about hardware.
What about Daytop? I think that somewhere in all Daytop's advertisning about growth and such, they should in clude a part where they say, " and this is how we do it, because we beleive this works", and after that have a copy of this post, along with the posts of many other venemous Daytop protectors, to show what it's all about.
But I suppose that that is not very likely, short of this country regressing 100 years.
Something I never liked about Daytop is that they don t offer freedom from addiction, but rather a mechanism to create sobriety- a bulky unnecessary add on.
... and that in order for an individual or institution to consistantly carry ouy these actions, the underlying philosohpy in place in the individual or institution is that the person is axiomatically flawed and requires something external from natural reality to be good or OK, which is complete non sense.
As they often said in Daytop: " Every single one of you is and always will be a dope feine, no matter how well you do in this program or how long you stay sober"
So, I guess in their veiw, every one of is by nature bad or insufficient, except of course Daytop who will come along and save you from your self, if you only just allow it to.
First they feed you the bullshit idea that you are by nature flawed or incapable, fundamentally and permanently, and then they contradict their own bullshit idea, by telling you that a body of people just like yourself, can help you. That is if you define Daytop as the people who run it. And if not what is Daytop? I think they want us to beleive it is magic. The further you peel down into their philosophy, the more you see their are no real answers, just dead ends and contradiction, and circular logic.
This is how I thought of Daytop while I was in it. When I was 16, I was into philosophy and logic, and although I had more then my fair share of problems, I fundamentally was a strong lover of life, goodness, vitality, spirit and all that great shit. I suppose that combination was the reason I found Daytop so intolerable, and I was in a group that numberred few.
Paul St. John
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Well said Paul, and btw welcome back! :wave:
-
Thanks man
How's it goin?
Paul St. John
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Thanks man
How's it goin?
Paul St. John
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I'm doing very good actually and it's fun to come back here sometimes to address morons like Honesty, who doesn't have a clue as to what that word means, Oh he knows the Daytop version, you know the one goes
D-do
A-as
Y-your
T-told
O-or
P-pack
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I'm doing very good actually and it's fun to come back here sometimes to address morons like Honesty, who doesn't have a clue as to what that word means, Oh he knows the Daytop version, you know the one goes
D-do
A-as
Y-your
T-told
O-or
P-pack
Har-har-har!!! That's a good one, odie. But I gotta tell ya, I have some mighty high respect fer Daytop and all they done fer the Cause. I myself learnt a rootin' tootin' headful o'er at Hazelden, and I ain't ever stopped using it since!! Makes fer some mighty fine character development material, and I'm a damn good salesman and business man if I may say, har har!! One of those panty-waisted dweebs over on the Hyde forum came up with this one:
H - Hell
Y - You
D - Didn't
E - Expect
Laughin' all the way to my bank,
Joseph W. Gauld, The Educator