Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Program Rebellion on February 17, 2005, 12:17:00 PM
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I'm curious if anyone has ever smuggled a videotape out of one of the WWASP seminars??
Lets expose the cult.
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Wouldn't that be nice. A few practical difficulties though. For example:
1. You have to put your kid in the program to attend (without creating suspicion at least). If you are planning to expose WWASP you probably don't think this is a good idea.
2. Changing tapes. The seminars go on for hours.
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you can sign up and pay for the seminars w/out placement of a child. couple hundred bucks
the tape changing would be difficult, three long days and nights of it for "discovery", with very few breaks
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there's also the possibility that the public seminars are different than the W seminars which were reportedly created by Gilcrease.
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Maybe an audio recording would be easier to capture.
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On 2005-02-17 10:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
2. Changing tapes. The seminars go on for hours."
Fuck "tape". You could stick one of these things in a cowboy hat. Life imitates 'the Simpsons,' right?
http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=wir ... ch+Froogle (http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=wireless+webcam&btnG=Search+Froogle)
The problem then becomes battery life and your shifty accomplise being able to park close enough to route it through a laptop.
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they make pocket digital recorders. they record up to 10 and 12 hours at a time on one set of batterys, and they also hook up to a laptop to download the recodings. They are very small.b
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http://www.olympusamerica.com/cpg_secti ... roduct=666 (http://www.olympusamerica.com/cpg_section/cpg_product_lobbypage.asp?l=1&bc=11&p=25&product=666)
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Just so you all know, WWASPS watches these forums, and are probably going to be on the lookout for this shit now.
So, I suggest you hire or at least consult with a P.I. or some retired Law Enforcement/Investigator type. Those who control the past, control the future; and those who control the present, control the past.
--George Orwell
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Good! Maybe they'll get so paranoid they'll start strip searching seminar attendees on the way in. Then NObody will hang around long enough to buy in. (hint, spy shops are open to the public and offer video/audio recording devices designed to be undetectable even by paranoid professional gangsters)
:rofl: Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppression of both mind and body will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day
Thomas Jefferson
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On 2005-02-17 23:44:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"Just so you all know, WWASPS watches these forums, and are probably going to be on the lookout for this shit now.
So, I suggest you hire or at least consult with a P.I. or some retired Law Enforcement/Investigator type. Those who control the past, control the future; and those who control the present, control the past.
--George Orwell
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Good the only way WWASP will catch somting as small as a pocket recorder is to search all the parents and i dont think that would make them contrable, maybee even cost them a bunch of kids from parents pulling them because they got searched.
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On 2005-02-17 23:44:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"Just so you all know, WWASPS watches these forums, and are probably going to be on the lookout for this shit now.
So, I suggest you hire or at least consult with a P.I. or some retired Law Enforcement/Investigator type. Those who control the past, control the future; and those who control the present, control the past.
--George Orwell
"
Good the only way WWASP will catch somting as small as a pocket recorder is to search all the parents and i dont think that would make them contrable, maybee even cost them a bunch of kids from parents pulling them because they got searched.
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On 2005-02-17 23:44:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"Just so you all know, WWASPS watches these forums, and are probably going to be on the lookout for this shit now.
So, I suggest you hire or at least consult with a P.I. or some retired Law Enforcement/Investigator type. Those who control the past, control the future; and those who control the present, control the past.
--George Orwell
"
Good the only way WWASP will catch somting as small as a pocket recorder is to search all the parents and i dont think that would make them contrable, maybee even cost them a bunch of kids from parents pulling them because they got searched.
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I don't have a video or audio recording of a seminar, but have been very recently. When you enter the room each and every time, you are separated from your belongings. The only way to do it would be on your person. It is a feasible plan, but if you just want to know anything specific, then ask me. I am not sure what you would hear that would enable you to "expose" them, as anything other than a bunch of kooks. There is not a lot that goes on that is even remotely interesting. Just lots of double talk and program speak and motivational hoo-ha. I think the real answer would to get a recording of the children's seminars. From what I have been told, that's where the true story lies.
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Well, a person who's already trested these folks w/ their kid and who's there, surrounded by the environment, feeling the pressure and fatigue might view the whole thing differently than someone sitting in the comfort of home, viewing it at leisure in small doses.
Personally, I'd consider your take on it all to be pretty credible. But I'm not about to send a kid to a WWASP facility or invite them to rectuite in our community. Those are the people who need to see this. And they're not going to go and see it firsthand unless and until they're under the kind of duress that seminar participants are usually under.
Necessity never made a good bargain.
[1971 - 2001] the darkest chapter in Federal law enforcement history.
Committee on Government Reform
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You're right, Ginger, different people in different settings may view it differently. I can say though, I was very emotionally uninvolved. I felt like I was having one of those out-of-body experiences. I spent the whole time listening and studying the people around me to see the effects of it on them. I was amazed how the people that finished up on Friday night, grumbling, bitching, hating the whole deal were the same people who were crying and having euphoric bursts of feelings on Sunday. Amazing. I can't believe these people were brainwashed that quickly. All I can surmise is, if you are open and searching for an answer, then you will be easily won over. My husband and I thought it was a crock of shit.
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Your detachment and critical-thinking, intellectual and not-emotional nature is what kept your head on your shoulders and not on a plate for the facilitator.
This is where I start getting at odds with a lot of philosophies and religious groups. They want Ego reduction... such as a seminar. I want people to remain individuals in control of themselves without being violated by external control. And frankly I really want to know WTF is with David Gilcrease for MAKING this hsit if hes a fucking PSYCHOLOGIST.
These are human beings for gods sake. WTF? :???: You never see animals going through the absurd and often horrible fooleries of magic and religion. Only man behaves with such gratuitous folly. It is the price he has to pay for being intelligent but not, as yet, intelligent enough.
--Aldous Huxley, author
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...David Gilcrease for MAKING this hsit if hes a fucking PSYCHOLOGIST.
A lot of people know this already, but, Niles, Gilgrease is not a psychologist. He is (or was, in his former career) a software engineer. He wrote program for Hewlett-Packard.
He himself was obviously not doing well on the psych front, as he submitted to the early est and Lifespring seminars. Now, whether he personally found the "enlightenment" of these pre-WWASPS-type mind games fulfilling, or he simply saw how incrediblely gullibile and easy to rip off participants were, is known only to him. In any event, he hooked up with his Mormon buddies, the used car salesman and the hospital tech, and invented this zillion-dollar business. This was around 1995 or so.
Mr. Gilcrease is an engineer by training, so I can imagine that he looked at the twisting of adult and juvenile minds as just another step-by-step process, a means to achieve his own end of financial windfalls. He is a big man physically, and that attribute probably had something to do with his early experiences of successful intimidation. Also important is his strong Mormon background, one in which he grew up surrounded by subservient women who honor, obey, and *mind* their menfolk. Consideration of the minds and bodies of his "subjects", seminar participants, locked-up kids, or extended family members, would probably not even appear on his radar screen, much less be a factor in continuing his Cash Cow business or not.
BTW, all this information about Gilcrease was gathered from various official WWASPS propaganda. They think he is so wonderful, they tout his rather-humble totally untrained psychological background. Power to Chi for seeing through all this...and in fact, being incredulous that others cannot do the same. Does the Emporer have no clothes?
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Okay, I'm getting long and rambling again:
I think it is good for WWASPS to face the lawsuits and the monitoring of these forums and the loss of people.
Even though the us vs. them aspect of groupthink insulates them from realizing that some of the things they're doing are terribly wrong, it does give them *some* feedback from society at large and reality that they would be lacking if the rest of us weren't talking about the problems with some of the things they do.
Society at large is probably more concerned with the misbehavior of "bad kids" as the participants on this forum. But society at large is *also* very opposed to some of what appear from survivor and parent accounts to be WWASPS practices.
WWASPS doesn't catch more flack because they just don't register on the radar screen of most of society.
Where WWASPS reality check is bouncing is in not understanding that sometimes and in some cases, the "cure" is worse than the disease.
So if they're reading this thread and start worrying about people carrying hidden tape recorders into seminars, and they start worrying about liability, then those worries will subtly modify some of their behaviors for the better. Either that, or they'll go totally wack and start strip searching people, holding seminars only in states with restrictive wiretapping laws, or making people sign intimidating sounding releases.
Any of those things are likely to tip at least some parents off that these people are a bit detached from reality and will reduce some of the effectiveness of their brainwashing/indoctrination techniques.
To people who ever end up going to something like this, or end up at some kind of high-sales-pressure seminar---pyramid scheme, religious cult, psychotherapy cult, MLM scheme, timeshares, shady investment scams, whatever---*one* of the tricks to avoid brainwashing in these situations is instead of making eye contact, to look at the bridge of the nose of the person talking to you.
It's indistinguishable to anyone from actual eye-contact, but insulates you somewhat from the trance-induction effects of what they're doing.
Also, carry protein-based snacks in a fanny-pack or purse, insist on carrying them in on the grounds of special dietary needs (lie and say you're diabetic). Then for refreshments, avoid the sugary drinks and snacks. Eat your protein snacks and partake of sugary snacks slowly and very sparingly. Take a folding cup in case you need one (neat gadget, that) and drink water instead of any offered sugary drinks.
Break up the rhythm of "mood music" by thinking of tunes with a *very* different beat, asynchronous with the mood music, and playing it in your head.
Avoid personal participation by, whatever your real personality, claiming to feel very shy. Your posed reluctance makes them feel really good at getting even minimal participation from you---which is all you should give.
Make up a cover personality with a cover story and concerns, problems, needs, personal feelings very different than the ones you have. Make up a few totally fictional (and minor) childhood traumas that you can "reveal" and speak passionately and realistically about their emotional impact on you.
"Revealing" the fake personality while concealing your real personality insulates the real you from emotional manipulation---hey, if they're not trying to manipulate you, why would it matter to the value of the information they give you whether you "let them in" or not?
If you're not sure how to construct a cover personality, work ahead of time with a friend who role plays or writes that you can trust to keep things confidential.
If you have these strategies in place *before* you get into a manipulation situation, you'll be much safer from being conned by anybody.
How do you identify a manipulation situation?
1) Think of charming as a verb. Instead of thinking, "Oh, this person is charming," think, "This person is charming me. Why?"
2) If it sounds too good to be true, it almost certainly is.
3) If you're desperate, and someone offers you salvation, examine *very* carefully before grasping at the offered straw. Desperate people are fertile hunting ground for the predators of this world.***
4) Any away-from-home situation where you're going to be there for three days or more, look at it as suspect for manipulation. Sure, on a trip to a client site to install a product, your chances of being sucked into a con are minimal. On a trip to talk about an opportunity, organization, philosophy, "training" of any kind, or seminar, or "free" or discount "vacation"---treat it as suspect and watch out for charm (charisma), "motivational speakers," mood music, sugary treats, funky lighting, meditations, prayers, prompts for personal revelations, doses of disapproval or approval, offers of anything you really want or need, or any kind of time pressure for any kind of decision or commitment.
5) If it's a really such a good idea, then it can wait two weeks after you're out of the place or group's influence for you to make a decision in the cold light of day after discussing it carefully with people who *didn't* go to the event to get a sanity check.
6) Opportunities--for salvation, for money, for personal growth, for weight loss, for helping a sick or troubled child---they don't only knock once. They knock over and over again throughout our lives. Any person or group that can't wait two weeks of you totally out of their control for you to make a decision is *very* likely to be seeking their own interests with indifference or malice towards *your* interests.
7) Con men are good liars and apparently nice, sincere, genuine people. No, you can't tell when a good con man is lying to you---no matter who you are. Con men often suck in reputable people and use them to suck in the people who know and trust those reputable people. Be *very* wary of referrals or testimonials from friends and family to anything you can't buy at a chain store.
:cool: You will be better off turning away nine genuine opportunities for every one genuine con than you are exploiting nine opportunities and getting bitten by one bad con. If it has the red flags of a con, skip it---even if that particular offer was for real, you will be much better off in the long run by avoiding the cons. There are enough genuine opportunities or remedies that *don't* throw up the red flags associated with cons to keep you busy all your life taking up the *good*, *clean* opportunities.
Timoclea
***Any time you're tempted to take a chance on something because you're desperate, think of the (real life) girl who took a hand offered by a man to save her from the tsunami. He pulled her out of the water, all right. Then he raped her. Before, she had aspirations to become a journalist. Now, her (admittedly horrible) family hopes some man will feel sorry for her and they can marry her off.
Would she have survived if she hadn't grabbed the hand of a guy who turned out to be a rapist? Is she better off alive and raped than chaste and drowned? Maybe she *is* better off. Barely.
Still, the moral of the story is that a desperate bargain is usually a bad bargain. The times in life when you're desperate are usually the times when it's *most* appropriate to be cautious and wise and wary of offers by people to "rescue" you---would-be rescuers frequently have hidden motives of their own.
Which applies to "rescuing" family members, as well, come to think of it. They may not *understand* their motives, but parents who rescue their child from natural consequences of bad behaviors from small childhood on up certainly aren't doing it for the sake of the welfare of the *kid*. So what are their own reasons?
Things that make you go "Hmmmmmm...."
Program "consequences" are draconian human-invented punishments. They aren't the same thing as sticking your hand on a hot stove and getting burned or treating a friend badly and losing that friend. Natural consequences are negative results of bad acts that happen in ordinary real life out in ordinary society. They're organic to the environment of society and nature--not invented by an authority figure or group to modify behavior. Natural consequences would also include punishments by a relatively non-authoritarian government for acts that are malum in se or otherwise directly harm or endanger others or their rights. Parental consequences aren't natural consequences, but as long as they're proportional, are a necessary learning tool for raising children. Proportionality is the difference between a teaching tool and an abuse.
Gosh, seems to be my day to ramble on again.
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took a tape recorder into ivy ridge. not admisable in court, said the judge. but, sure does make me feel good when I listen to it and then fuck with the stupid parents who believe in this shit from the people who brought you "time out" and "my kid is out of control" there comes a new saying. A MIND IS A TERRIBLE THING TO WASTE, BUT, IT IS BETTER TO WASTE IT, THEN TO FUCK WITH IT [email protected]
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Get an account or put it up on a filesharing account so we can hear it.
If you havent already done so, DIGITIZE IT! PLEASE!
If its not court admissible its still useable. Karate is a form of martial arts in which people who have had years and years of training can, using only their hands and feet, make some of the worst movies in the history of the world.
-- Dave Barry
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It's a pretty good tape. Ihad no clue what I was doing I'm am getting it done now. It was fun to bait them. If you tell them what they want to here they will tell you what you want to hear. MIND GAMES. Busted at there own game.
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Yes, please, digitize the recording and share it with us.