Fornits

Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Straight, Inc. and Derivatives => Topic started by: anon78 on November 04, 2002, 09:45:00 PM

Title: Need your opinion
Post by: anon78 on November 04, 2002, 09:45:00 PM: Just put a new graphic on a site with more text want to know if you all think its too heavy or not.
http://www.straightincorporated.com/home.html (http://www.straightincorporated.com/home.html)
Title: Need your opinion
Post by: Tampa survivor on November 04, 2002, 09:58:00 PM: I just checked it out. Nice additional text since a few weeks ago. The American holocaust thing...
Hmm. Provacative, but possibly too strong. The systematic extermination of a bunch of people was a bit stronger than what I went through. Jews get downright freaky (can't say I blame 'em) for light use of holocaust comparisions. So, as an ironic jab at Mel Sembler it is great, but to a casual jewish visitor, it may seem over the top.
Great job on the sites to all doing them.
Bill
Title: Need your opinion
Post by: kosmonaut on November 05, 2002, 03:47:00 PM: I would remove the holocaust reference.
Title: Need your opinion
Post by: enough on November 05, 2002, 06:22:00 PM: Just to chime in, we homo's are a little touchy about the holocaust issue too- since we were also forgotten (http://www.e-z.net/wtv/v-icht-4.htm) on purpose.

Of course, the program was persistent in conditioning meto believe that I was only sexually attracted to men because I was an addict, and that as a clean and sober person, I would be cleansed of this perversion.

Well I am clean and sober now, and you can guess the rest. Fascists.

[ This Message was edited by: enough on 2002-11-05 15:25 ]
Title: Need your opinion
Post by: enough on November 05, 2002, 06:29:00 PM: you might also want to point out the connections between DFAF and the drug free workplaces programs for setting up drug testing programs and supplies to small businesses. Or their association with the Drug Free Communities programs, I believe that this is one of the ways they get Federal Grants, but you'd have to do some research on that- I think Wes has some of this on his site somewhere...Ginger details ??
Title: Need your opinion
Post by: ladyjerrico on November 05, 2002, 06:31:00 PM: I really think they need to drug test more people where I work. We have many people who drive company vehicles and things like that. I'm only wanting it for the well-being of everyone. Come to think of it, I haven't been tested myself in nearly 5 years since I started working there.
Title: Need your opinion
Post by: Tampa survivor on November 05, 2002, 07:28:00 PM: God, not again.
Where is anonomous when we need him.

On 2002-11-05 15:31:00, ladyjerrico wrote: I really think they need to drug test more people where I work. We have many people who drive company vehicles and things like that. I'm only wanting it for the well-being of everyone..."

Lady, why on Gods green earth are you here? Drug testing without CAUSE is totally screwed.
You sound like one of them with that statement of yours. Go post that on DFAF!!!
Bill
Title: Need your opinion
Post by: Antigen on November 05, 2002, 08:07:00 PM: On the one hand, I don't think the holocaust reference is over the top. There are a lot of ties between the Bush Dynasty and Nazi Germany; the Nazi SS started out as a private securities corporation with hefty government contracts, much like our own Wackenhut and American Corrections Corporation; DARE has been frequently and broadly compared to Hitler Jugund (Hitler Youth); if you take a speech or essay from some of the more hawkish drug warriors and switch a few words around--like drugs for Jewery, drug user for Jew, etc.--most people would be hard pressed to tell it apart from an authentic bit of Nazi propaganda. Human experiments? WTF do you think was going on in there???

But the most compelling and significant thing that DFAF has in common with the Third Reich is how both movements crept upon the people, becoming an integral and accepted part of the culture. You think our drug warriors don't celebrate the death of a "druggie"?

""They saw me, drenched in Clay's blood, and they ask me, 'Is he all right.' and I just shook my head. The cops are smoking and joking, high-fiving each other. Wow, I think, they took down a farm of unarmed hippies."
http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v02/n1876/a12.html?1874 (http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v02/n1876/a12.html?1874)

Now, on the other hand, a lot of people are not anywhere near ready to see the similarities between what's happening in this country and what happened in Germany. You will get serious backlash because of that.

As far as DFAF's finances go, I know that Calvina was quoted as saying that they got 30% of their funding from the Federal government a year or two ago. Wes has documented the SBA grant they got last year for $300k. That was in the newspaper. If you want to know all about their funding, send a formal certified letter of request for their tax returns and cite the Freedom of Information Act. While you're waiting for a response, check out Florida CAN's pages on FOI requests at http://www.jug-or-not.com/can/freedom_of_info.htm (http://www.jug-or-not.com/can/freedom_of_info.htm)
Title: Need your opinion
Post by: the other anonymous on November 05, 2002, 09:50:00 PM: My opinion has been that no testing is appropriate EXCEPT when people have jobs like driving big trucks or flying airplanes. You do have me thinking, with your strong statement about testing without CAUSE. It is worth debate. However, instead of debating with ladyjerrico you dismissed her to the DFAF site. Now are you going to send ME over there? Into the lion's den for not having the correct opinion?
Title: Need your opinion
Post by: Tampa survivor on November 05, 2002, 10:06:00 PM: No...I am going to my jacuzzi. Me and MY opinions will bubble till properly poached. I sent mail to DFAF today. A veiled mail....good cop/bad cop anyone?

I just found it odd that on a thread with a bunch liberty nuts, a workplace drug test advocate would shout it out.

Be happy.

Bill will now sing Kumba-ya

[ This Message was edited by: Tampa survivor on 2002-11-05 19:10 ]
Title: Need your opinion
Post by: the other anonymous on November 05, 2002, 11:00:00 PM: quite happy, thank you very much. (until I hear Kumbaya!) go bubble away.
Title: Need your opinion
Post by: Anonymous on November 06, 2002, 09:37:00 AM: I kind of like the name Gulog sp? It implies and points to attrocities with all the images but lacking a direct comparison to the holocaust museum.
Title: Need your opinion
Post by: kosmonaut on November 06, 2002, 01:47:00 PM: A typical person who sees that holocaust reference is going to balk at checking out the rest of the site. There are already so many wacko conspiracy theory web pages they may assume this is yet another one. I'm not discrediting your web page, I think it's excellent. Just remove the holocaust reference.
Title: Need your opinion
Post by: hedwigfan on November 06, 2002, 06:44:00 PM: my sentiments exactly
Title: Need your opinion
Post by: ladyjerrico on November 07, 2002, 09:22:00 AM: Quote

On 2002-11-05 16:28:00, Tampa survivor wrote:
God, not again.
Where is anonomous when we need him.
On 2002-11-05 15:31:00, ladyjerrico wrote: I really think they need to drug test more people where I work. We have many people who drive company vehicles and things like that. I'm only wanting it for the well-being of everyone..."

Lady, why on Gods green earth are you here? Drug testing without CAUSE is totally screwed.
You sound like one of them with that statement of yours. Go post that on DFAF!!!
Bill
I'm only stating my opinion about my work place, many people admit to me that they use very strong drugs and have no need for them except for recreactional useage. Before they were hired in they did an extensive background check and most people had more than 1 drug test. To me it's a safety concern, and if some managers and supervisors could get some stuff together, they would see what is going on.
Bite me ok! I am here because I delt with a lot of crap at Straight and I don't need you or "anonymous" to make things worse in my life by humiliating me or bitching at me.. thank you very much!

[ This Message was edited by: ladyjerrico on 2002-11-07 06:27 ]
Title: Need your opinion
Post by: ladyjerrico on November 07, 2002, 09:29:00 AM: Agh! I can't edit this.. but I wanted to say that I don't need you or anonymous bitching me out or humilating me for my opinions or judgment in saftey concerns for where I work. I only post on what I think. These opinions are strong for me, so if you don't like them you don't have to, however, I would ask for a little respect. Also, I had enough low self image in Straight, and I won't leave this site.. so kiss my butt!
Title: Need your opinion
Post by: Anonymous on November 07, 2002, 12:09:00 PM: While I would agree that no person should be behind the wheel of any vehicle while under the influence of ANY mind altering drug, it is a violation of a persons 4th amendment rights to be subject to such tests. Are you saying that If I were to smoke a recreational joint in the privacy of my own home tonight, that I should loose my job tomorrow because I could not pass a drug test? How about if a have a tendency to eat large quantities of poppy seed bagels (as I often do), should I loose my job because traces of opiates show up?

It just seems to me that you would judge these people guilty before proven innocent beyond any shadow of doubt.
Title: Need your opinion
Post by: the other anonymous on November 08, 2002, 12:07:00 AM: I'm still thinking on this one. Say you were applying to be a pilot. They'd check out all your credentials to make sure you were trained, and I imagine your medical records to make sure you didn't have an unsafe condition, why not check out your pee?

In this case there is a very compelling safety reason to piss test, unlike the case of the video store clerks. They should make sure those people ARE smoking dope.
Title: Need your opinion
Post by: Anonymous on November 08, 2002, 01:09:00 PM: So, A pilot who likes to smoke pot in his off hours should be denied a job, while the other who drinks like a fish will be hired with no problem?

You see, with this thinking you are riding a fine line. Already we have roaming road blocks to check for DUIs. How much longer do you think it will be before you are stopped while walking down the street, and are asked to show "Your Papers"?

To be honest it is already happening in some areas. For example in some Fla areas, the cops routinely stop (walking) teenagers/20 somethings (during daylight hours as well as night). Ask for their ID, Ask to see any identifying tatoos. Ask where they are going, what they are doing. At this point they are cataloged for future needs. All this without provocation.

Frankly, I believe that random drug testing or even testing ppl in order to obtain employment is a NAZI tactic to control the public!

Besides, if you are going to test for drugs, why don't we do some DNA testing too so we can weed out ppl of Arab descent.
Title: Need your opinion
Post by: the other anonymous on November 08, 2002, 02:39:00 PM: SysAdmin wrote: So, A pilot who likes to smoke pot in his off hours should be denied a job, while the other who drinks like a fish will be hired with no problem?

Not exactly. I don't know that testing for pot can be as exact as the breathalyzer for alcohol -- in other words, how high are you? Can the pot test show that you have smoked pot so recently as to be impaired when flying a plane or driving a big rig? Or does it just show that you have smoked in the past month or so?

Also, I would not want someone who "drank like a fish" as my pilot, would you?

And, I don't know that it is necessary to make all the leaps you are making, like to having to carry papers. I think the two things can be considered separately, and of course I think it is wrong if the police are randomly stopping people as you describe.

I just can't see that it would be wrong for an airline to check out their pilots each and every time. They check the rest of us as thoroughly as they can now, why not the pilots?

I find your comments about Arabs offensive. I would never condone such a thing.
Title: Need your opinion
Post by: Anonymous on November 08, 2002, 05:46:00 PM: Since we are talking about simply obtaining a job, not what happens on the job. I dont see where that comment fits. If my pilot goes on a bender when he is off, that is his business, I could care less. My only concern it that he is not impaired at the time he is to preform his duties.

Other then a breathalizer which only detects alcohol I know of no other test that would be immediate, so there would be no way of knowing that your vehicle operator is impaired from any other substance until after the fact.

As far as making leaps, what do you think the talk of a national ID card is about. The word "papers" is a non-literal term for a very real thing, at current we call them:
drivers licenses...... registration...... proof of insurace.....
And you can not deny that!

If you find my comment's about Arabs offensive that is a shame, sarcasm is one of the things I do best :smile: Also, while you may not condone such acts there are those, some which are quite possibly in power, that would.
Title: Need your opinion
Post by: Antigen on November 08, 2002, 09:35:00 PM: I really think that's where we're headed if we don't find a way to peacefully overturn the drug warriors and all their scapegoating, tyranical nonsense.
Whether a significant number of people are ready to realize it or not is another question.

So I'm divided on whether or not I like the reference being there. If people don't want to see it, it's like sacrificing the rest of the content to the cause of trying to make the parallels known. I think that's a worthy cause, myself. But I'm not sure if that's what you're after, Marti.

"Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake when you make it again."
-- F. P. Jones
Title: Need your opinion
Post by: Antigen on November 08, 2002, 09:48:00 PM: Quote
On 2002-11-07 21:07:00, the other anonymous wrote:
I'm still thinking on this one. Say you were applying to be a pilot. They'd check out all your credentials to make sure you were trained, and I imagine your medical records to make sure you didn't have an unsafe condition, why not check out your pee?

Because it's a very poor indicator of competence and responsibility. The vast majority of drug users, whether they prefer licit drugs (like beer or prozac) or illicit drugs (like MJ and cocain) use their drugs responsibly. They don't show up to work intoxicated. They seperate their recreational activities from their responsibilities.

One great big lie we all learned in Straight is that recreation (and sleep and affection and liberty of thought, for that matter) is not a necessity. It is. Absolutely. If you want to remain sane, find a way to have fun!

But that distinction between responsible, recreational use and abuse which interferes with one's ability to perform a task doesn't show up on a piss test. A positive piss test is no different in my view than a forced confession of having smoked a joint or sniffed a marker after hours of brow-beating. Well, there's one difference. Most people will just go along to get along with a piss test because they have a choice. But don't kid yourself that the Drug Free Workplace people wouldn't love to do a full-blown intake ritual as part of their hiring practice if they thought they could get away with it.

Quote
On 2002-11-07 21:07:00, the other anonymous wrote:
In this case there is a very compelling safety reason to piss test, unlike the case of the video store clerks. They should make sure those people ARE smoking dope.

Heh. You're probably right about that. If people smoke pot, they might be choosing that over more debilitating opiates.
Title: Need your opinion
Post by: Anonymous on November 08, 2002, 11:48:00 PM: You fucking arrogant assed American, I cant believe that you people would point fingers at straight for a type of holocaust then turn around and want to do dna testing on arabs so they cant be pilots. First dehumanize people then we can oppress them. In straight the justification was we are all druggies with arabs its thier all terroists. Whoever posted that shit is an ignorant motherfucker. As far as drug testing I think its a good idea with the exception of weed. Hey Im sorry for the strong language but that was some ignorant ass shit. Love ya ladyj
Title: Need your opinion
Post by: the other anonymous on November 08, 2002, 11:58:00 PM: "The vast majority of drug users, whether they prefer licit drugs (like beer or prozac) or illicit drugs (like MJ and cocain) use their drugs responsibly."

Hmmm, you must know a different kind of drug user than I have. People I know get stoned every day before work.

I don't care if they do, and I think it would be wrong for their employer to test them, because it has nothing (or very little) to do with job performance.

Would airline pilots really be so different from my friends in their drug use habits? What about those two pilots who showed up drunk to fly a plane a couple of months ago?

Perhaps I am being absurdly stubborn on this point -- and let me clarify, I am not for blanket pre-employment testing. But I would like to know that pilots and train conductors, at least, were not impaired.

My experience with drug testing was recent. I had to piss in a cup and let a rude girl look at it before I could get a job in a factory doing menial, repetitious work. I did not (could not) object because I needed the money.

Now if this whole debate were in person, I'd say we should light one up. I am wholly stressed with reality right now.
Title: Need your opinion
Post by: the other anonymous on November 09, 2002, 12:11:00 AM: "If you find my comment's about Arabs offensive that is a shame, sarcasm is one of the things I do best :smile: "

I knew you were being sarcastic, but it seemed like you were saying that because I condoned drug testing on pilots, I would also scapegoat Arabs.

"My only concern it that he is not impaired at the time he is to preform his duties."

That is exactly how I feel. Alcohol and mj can affect me even the next day. Oh, hey, I just had an idea. What if, instead of drug testing the pilots, they sent them into a simulator for five or ten minutes before their shift to test their reaction time and decision making and all that. That would be much better -- it might send them home if they were overtired or coming down with the flu as well as drunk or high.
Title: Need your opinion
Post by: the other anonymous on November 09, 2002, 12:17:00 AM
Title: Need your opinion
Post by: the other anonymous on November 09, 2002, 12:32:00 AM: On 2002-11-08 20:48:00, Anonymous wrote: "You fucking arrogant assed American, I cant believe that you people would point fingers at straight for a type of holocaust then turn around and want to do dna testing on arabs so they cant be pilots."

This was in response to what SysAdmin wrote earlier in this thread:
"Besides, if you are going to test for drugs, why don't we do some DNA testing too so we can weed out ppl of Arab descent."

The whole point of SysAdmin's post was that he was against drug testing, therefore, by pairing that with DNA testing of Arabs, he was trying to make drug testing seem as offensive as DNA testing. In other words, he was being sarcastic. The offense was mine to take rather than an Arab person's, because he compared me -- who would (might, jury is out) like to drug test (in certain situations only) -- to someone who would like to DNA test for racist purposes.
Title: Need your opinion
Post by: dreammagician on November 09, 2002, 07:34:00 AM: Last year a couple moved in across the street and I found out she was a probation officer. About a month or two later I had some trouble with the law and was put on probation. I was assigned to her as my officer until I came in, she realized who I was and there was a conflict of interest. I was assigned a new officer, which was one of her buddies and my life was hell for a year until I got off probation. I remember I didn't get tested the first few times so I thought it was safe. Stupid me, I came in stoned and sure enough was tested and I had to get down on my hands and knees to not go to jail because my judge was the judge with 0 tolerance. A week before I was to get off probation I woke up to find our circle blocked off. I asked my girlfriend what was up and I was informed there was a murder suicide next door. Her husband shot her as she walked in the door and later killed himself. It's weird, I hated living next to her while I was on probation because I was always afraid she would see me doing something.
Title: Need your opinion
Post by: Anonymous on November 09, 2002, 07:45:00 AM: I just saw the picture of the original building. It was eerie to me because I had a dream of that part of the building several months ago, but I have never stepped foot inside that building.

Don
Title: Need your opinion
Post by: Anonymous on November 09, 2002, 09:03:00 AM: Quote
On 2002-11-08 20:58:00, the other anonymous wrote:
"Now if this whole debate were in person, I'd say we should light one up. I am wholly stressed with reality right now. "

Most definitly! And I would also be in agreement to a reaction time testing. This would weed out not only the "high" but those that are to sick or tooooooo tired to be operation such vechicles.
Title: Need your opinion
Post by: Anonymous on November 09, 2002, 09:27:00 AM: Quote
On 2002-11-08 20:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You fucking arrogant assed American, I cant believe that you people would point fingers at straight for a type of holocaust then turn around and want to do dna testing on arabs so they cant be pilots."

You have got to be kidding. Do you not understand the context in which that was said? The whole point being, where does it end? Are you willing to give up your bad breath? Your pee? Your blood, it's only a drop, you'll never miss it? Should we test for Nationality? After all our Gooberment is at war (with who I am not sure), and that is the best time for the them to institue/require such testing, all while playing on the fears of their sheep?

So, before you go flying off the handle calling people "fucking arrogant assed" or "ignorant motherfucker", read the entire post/thread or at least look in the mirror so you may not wind up lookin' like a "fucking arrogant assed ignorant motherfucker".

[ This Message was edited by: SysAdmin on 2002-11-09 06:35 ]
Title: Need your opinion
Post by: Antigen on November 09, 2002, 10:14:00 AM: Here's the thing. This is an excellent illustration of why I put so much time into drawing public attention to the many and varied kinds of corruption and fraud that the drug warriors have perpetrated on this country that I love and all of our good friends. Impairment testing is not only available, it's less expensive than piss testing.

http://www.pmifit.com/ (http://www.pmifit.com/)

And it actually works!

http://www.workrights.org/issue_drugtes ... sting.html (http://www.workrights.org/issue_drugtest/dt_impairment_testing.html)

So.... if DFAF is really concerned for your safety, why are they pushing piss testing on everyone when this superior method of safety screening is readily available?

Obvious answer; they don't care any more about your safety in the workplace or on a commercial airliner than they did when they had you on the floor under a pile of pissed off oldcomers. It's all about profit and control.