Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Hyde Schools => Topic started by: Anonymous on October 03, 2005, 09:13:00 AM
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On 2005-10-02 20:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Hey HydeFan, why don't you have the courage to ask a certain headmaster whether it is true that his son was gang raped while at the Bath Campus. He spoke about it in group and I seriously doubt he made it up! What irks me is how they chose never to call in the authorities"
So you are saying Joe Gauld spoke up in a group and said his son was gang raped at Hyde. Or was it Malcolm who spoke up? (Or does Malcolm have a son?)
And you think I lack courage for not asking an alledged raped victim to revisit his 30-year old trauma, let alone make the inquiry for your salacious purposes?
Many crime victims chose not to call the authorities. Are you irked by them to?
Even if what you say is true, I don't think its relevant today, and I'm sure it caused untold grief and suffering. I would never inquire about such a thing our of descency and respect.
Oh, I get it!! All of a sudden you are saying that this is something NOT to talk about when in fact Hyde's whole curriculum is about bringing up your past in front of the school!!
You really don't get it do you? Hyde has a LEGAL obligation as a school to notify the authorities when there has been sexual abuse at their school. Hyde feels they are above the law and can handle everything through seminars and FLC's. Hate to tell you this, but there are laws in the U.S. and they are there to protect our youth. Hyde is NOT ABOVE THE LAW even though they think they are!
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HydeFan,
It sounds as though this last poster is saying that there was a crime at Hyde and it was covered up and not reported to the appropriate authorities. He/She is right about the fact that Hyde does have a legal duty to report crimes no matter who it happened to.
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There is nothing "all of a sudden" here, except your statements, which, if untrue, are likely defamatory.
I also don't agree with the statement that Hyde's whole curriculum is about bringing up EVERYTHING about your past in front of the school.
For sure it is about giving people a place and encouragement to talk about stuff that maybe painful or may be typical teen angst or whatever, but (in my experience there) many matters are dealt with privately as well.
Anyway, you keep making unsubstantiated allegations (that are quite vague as well, since I have no clue who you are really talking about here).
Personally, I know of no law that says a private school (in the year when this "crime" is alleged to have occurred) has to report a crimes to the police. Surely you have some backup for this, right?
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Yes, this is exactly what I was saying. We are talking about two different subjects. Whether Hyde is a good for some kids and not others is one topic. The other topic is my concern for the students welfare, being at a school like Hyde where they govern themselves.
Kids should feel they are in a safe, supportive environment and parents should feel the same. I am not saying Hyde is bad in all respects, but Hyde needs to change their policies so our kids will be safe. They are not above the law.How they handle serious situations is important. In this case I think they showed a lack of character as well as lack of sensitivity. These incidences have happened at other schools, but in those cases and in this day and age, it is reported, not swept under the carpet.
You are right that this kid suffered, and I am sure he suffered even more by how it was handled. When you ignore a violation of this magnitude, what are you telling the victim? I seriously question the character of the parents and whether they practiced Truth over Harmony or more likely Harmony over Truth. And yes, it is a child of a Head of one of the schools.
Hyde will go on, parents will still send their kids, but maybe if more parents would practice Truth over Harmony, Hyde could become a better place!
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On 2005-10-03 06:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"HydeFan,
He/She is right about the fact that Hyde does have a legal duty to report crimes no matter who it happened to."
Hmmmm. While not an expert, I am not sure this is true. Based on some searches I just did, I learned:
In general, there is no duty for any private party to report a crime unless that state has passed a statute to the contrary.
There are probably mandatory reporting obligations for child sexual abuse in Maine http://www.smith-lawfirm.com/mandatory_reporting.htm (http://www.smith-lawfirm.com/mandatory_reporting.htm)
The reporting obligation (which for the model law came into effect in 1996) seems to be limited to situations where the abuse is by a parent or caretaker responsible for the childs welfare.
Anyway, I only spent 5 minutes searching on this so I could be wrong, and would be interested in what anyone else finds, but as far as I can tell, there was no obligation to report, and keeping the matter private (IF IT HAPPENED AT ALL!) was appropriate at the discretion of the family involved.
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On 2005-10-03 06:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
"but Hyde needs to change their policies so our kids will be safe.
When you ignore a violation of this magnitude, what are you telling the victim?
On your first point, do you have specific suggestions? Rapes occur, on occasion, in even the most prestigeous of New England prep schools. Anyway, reasonable safety precautions should be taken in all schools, but I am not sure which policies you are referring to.
On the second point, again, we are dealing with unsubstantiated allegations of the vaguest type here, but assuming there was no legal duty to report, who says this was ignored?
Ok, this is based solely on Law and Order which may not be the most authoritative basis, but the victim gets to decide how much they want to disclose and how to handle their trauma, and if they want to report it, the D.A. can decide if there is enough evidence to prosecute.
Sounds like someone spoke up in a school meeting, so if it was open there, and there was no other legal duty to report, it was at least out in the open, and whose to say how the alleged victim requested it be handled?
Rape is horrible. Many rape victims (ok, sorry still based on law and order), seem to never be able to talk about this.
Regardless of anything else, the interests of the victim would have to come first, not someone's perceived notion that not talking about this in front of the whole school somehow violates the school's policy of openness. (Let alone 30 years later, though again, no one has answered my request for details.)
I would also at this point cross-reference some of the posts here siting as abuse being forced to listen to inappropriate subject matter being brought up in front of kids....well, I can't think of many things more inappropriate and it seems to me that it may have been quite good judgement to deal with this privately.[ This Message was edited by: HydeFan on 2005-10-03 07:05 ]
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HydeFan, I appreciate you taking the time to look up these statues, but I don't think you understand what I am saying.
HYDE AS A SCHOOL had an obligation to report this. You could be right that the parents do not have to report it, but it is mandatory for Hyde to report crimes they are aware of and they were absolutely aware of this. I don't remember all the details, but I believe some of the kids involved in this were punished in some way or possibly asked to leave the school.
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I don't think you understand what I am saying!
If you are going to claim something is a legal duty, then site your source, because I think you are wrong. I don't know for sure, and am open to being wrong, but I have now done a number of searches quickly got vague information from an attorney (free advice, only worth what I paid for it). :smile:
As a general rule, there is no legal duty for any person, corporation or entity to report crimes UNLESS there is a specific law to the contrary.
Given that, I would think such a law would be easy to find. I searched and found nothing. Please let me know what you find. (Then we can both apply for our honorary J.D.s and be done with it.)
POST EDIT: Forgot to state the obvious. Even assuming you are correct about the duty to report (which may be but I think not), how can anyone on this board to presume to have knowledge about what was or wasn't reported?!
This is crazy and I will likely stop posting here. My intent on this board was not to become Hyde's defender, but simply to be a voice that for me and MOST that I knew at Hyde over the years, their experience was among the most powerfully positive things to have ever happened in their (and their families) lives.
[ This Message was edited by: HydeFan on 2005-10-03 07:28 ]
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On 2005-10-03 07:18:00, HydeFan wrote:
"I don't think you understand what I am saying!
If you are going to claim something is a legal duty, then site your source, because I think you are wrong. I don't know for sure, and am open to being wrong, but I have now done a number of searches quickly got vague information from an attorney (free advice, only worth what I paid for it). :smile:
As a general rule, there is no legal duty for any person, corporation or entity to report crimes UNLESS there is a specific law to the contrary.
Given that, I would think such a law would be easy to find. I searched and found nothing. Please let me know what you find. (Then we can both apply for our honorary J.D.s and be done with it.)
POST EDIT: Forgot to state the obvious. Even assuming you are correct about the duty to report (which may be but I think not), how can anyone on this board to presume to have knowledge about what was or wasn't reported?!
This is crazy and I will likely stop posting here. My intent on this board was not to become Hyde's defender, but simply to be a voice that for me and MOST that I knew at Hyde over the years, their experience was among the most powerfully positive things to have ever happened in their (and their families) lives.
[ This Message was edited by: HydeFan on 2005-10-03 07:28 ]"
HydeFan I will try to find what you are asking for. I believe the Dept of Children and Family Services has it on their website. As far as how I know it was not reported, the kid who was raped told us in group how it was handled.
I would hate to see you leave this board because I think you have a lot to contribute. Although it might appear that I am trashing Hyde, this is not my intent. It is good for all the facts to be out there both positive and negative
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On 2005-10-03 07:42:00, Anonymous wrote:
"It is good for all the facts to be out there both positive and negative"
Agreed! And I will definitely check in from time to time, but as I am but one, my opinions can be just as skewed as anyone else's, so hopefully more will join.
Looking forward to info on the obligation to disclose. I know it makes conceptual sense that it exist, but I think among the reason it may not is because (a) economic analysis says this can be highly inefficient (says one article I scanned this morning), (b) corporations (which control the government) have had a vested interest in protecting their reputations, and don't want to have to publicly report things that happen on their premises that could happen anywhere else.
That argument falls short, for me, when it comes to protecting the young, elderly and infirm (who are less able to protect themselves) but as I suggested, we don't know a lot of things here, including what the victim wanted and whether it was actually reported.
If you can find something, when did this allegedly happen? If there is a law, it should be easy to also then figure out if this applied at that time. I think most child protection stuff is much more recent (i.e., 80s and 90s). Assuming you are talking about something from the 70s, I am guessing that any disclose law you find was not in effect at that time.
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On 2005-10-03 06:49:00, HydeFan wrote:
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On 2005-10-03 06:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"HydeFan,
He/She is right about the fact that Hyde does have a legal duty to report crimes no matter who it happened to."
Hmmmm. While not an expert, I am not sure this is true. Based on some searches I just did, I learned:
In general, there is no duty for any private party to report a crime unless that state has passed a statute to the contrary.
There are probably mandatory reporting obligations for child sexual abuse in Maine http://www.smith-lawfirm.com/mandatory_reporting.htm (http://www.smith-lawfirm.com/mandatory_reporting.htm)
The reporting obligation (which for the model law came into effect in 1996) seems to be limited to situations where the abuse is by a parent or caretaker responsible for the childs welfare.
Anyway, I only spent 5 minutes searching on this so I could be wrong, and would be interested in what anyone else finds, but as far as I can tell, there was no obligation to report, and keeping the matter private (IF IT HAPPENED AT ALL!) was appropriate at the discretion of the family involved."
Yes, you are wrong. Teachers and therapists both are legally obligated to report child abuse. It is mandated by law in every state of our union.
Any teacher or staff member who did not report this abuse has violated the law and should be terminated and prosecuted.
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Damn, you really want me to do your work for you, don't you. Ok, more web research responding to your comment:
"Yes, you are wrong. Teachers and therapists both are legally obligated to report child abuse. It is mandated by law in every state of our union."
DUH! Of course they are. What you have missed is that child abuse is NOT (in Maine) defined as child on child abuse.
Citation: Tit. 22, ยง 4002 says Abuse or neglect means a threat to a child?s health or welfare by physical injury or impairment, by a person responsible for the child.
Read the last clause again. This is not about Child on Child. Mandatory disclosures (in this case) only apply to abuse BY A PERSON RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CHILD.
Do your own searches and see what else you can find at http://nccanch.acf.hhs.gov/general/lega ... es/search/ (http://nccanch.acf.hhs.gov/general/legal/statutes/search/)
Again, maybe I am wrong, but all you have so far is naked accusations and unsupported assertions of the law.
To return this channel to its previous broadcasting format, I reiterate:
1. If you are going to claim you know the law, then give us a link. Otherwise, I believe you are confused about disclosure obligations.
2. If you find something, I am open to being wrong, but then you would still need to show:
a. it was in effect at the time of the alleged event (most disclosure laws seem to be post-80s) and
b. that nothing was ever reported.
Good luck. My hunch is, you simply chose the wrong example to try and make a point about Hyde having double standards.
And guess what, if that's your point, I won't disagree, as I am sure at times they have. No one claims Hyde was perfect. Far from it, they are a complex institution, working with complex people, in possibly one of the most challenging time of many of their (students) lives.
IMHO, they were better than anything out there FOR ME, and for MANY MANY MANY I know who attended there, including current members of the state department, doctors, lawyers, business execs, teachers, builders, military leaders and other highly successful people.
I am sorry it was not the same for you.[ This Message was edited by: HydeFan on 2005-10-03 09:57 ]
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It happened in the 90's
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I got the following off the website of The Department of Human Services Bureau of Children and Family Services
REPORTING OF CHILD ABUSE AND NEGLECT
The Report: Maine law says that anyone who suspects that a child is being abused or neglected must make a report to Department of Human Services. People who work with children and families are also required by law to make that report.
This is what I am talking about. The school has a duty to report any suspected child abuse whether the student wants them to or not! It is like a Doctor! Doctors are required to notify the proper authorities when child abuse is suspected with one of their patients.
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HydeFan, I got the following off the website you recommended. It looks pretty clear to me and it certainly makes sense!!
WHO MUST REPORT
Allopathic or osteopathic physicians; residents; interns; emergency medical services persons; medical examiners; physicians' assistants; dentists; dental hygienists; dental assistants; chiropractors; podiatrists; registered or licensed practical nurses; home health aides; medical or social service workers;
Teachers; guidance counselors; school officials; child care personnel; children's summer camp administrators or counselors;
Social workers; psychologists; mental health professionals;
Court Appointed Special Advocates; guardians ad litem; homemakers; law enforcement officials; State or municipal fire inspectors; municipal code enforcement officials; municipal fire inspectors; chairs of licensing boards that have jurisdiction over mandated reporters;
Commercial film and photographic print processors;
Clergy members acquiring the information as a result of clerical professional work except for information received during confidential communications;
Humane agents employed by the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Resources;
Any person who has assumed full, intermittent or occasional responsibility for the care or custody of the child, regardless of whether the person receives compensation.; or
Any person affiliated with a church or religious institution who serves in an administrative capacity or has otherwise assumed a position of trust or responsibility to the members of that church or religious institution, while acting in that capacity, regardless of whether the person receives compensation.
CIRCUMSTANCES
When, while acting in a professional capacity, they know or have reasonable cause to suspect that a child has been or is likely to be abused or neglected.
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Ok, I am not sure I can make this any clearer, but let me try one last time. The last sentence of your post correctly cut and past the "Circumstances" requiring a report to be filed.
CIRCUMSTANCES
When, while acting in a professional capacity, they know or have reasonable cause to suspect that a child has been or is likely to be abused or neglected.
WHAT YOU DIDN'T (SEEM TO) DO WAS CLICK ON THE BOX THAT SAID INCLUDE "Definitions of Child Abuse and Neglect" (now would be the time to do that).
NOW LOOK AT THE DEFINITION OF "ABUSE AND NEGLECT"....it says....
"Abuse or neglect means a threat to a child?s health or welfare by physical injury or impairment, by a person responsible for the child."
BY A PERSON RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CHILD. The abuse or neglect must be BY A PERSON RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CHILD. Not "BY" other students.
To make this perfectly clear, everytime you see the words "abuse and neglect" add the words BY SOMEONE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CHILD.
Is that "reasonably clear" enough?
Anyway, FWIW, I believe falsely stating someone else has committed a crime is defamation. I also don't think it would be too hard to find out your name after getting your IP address from the webhost in discovery.
As always, I stand ready to be wrong....but you (or someone like you) made the accusation that Hyde had acted criminally by not reporting a serious crime. You still haven't shown they had any such duty, and you definitely haven't shown that if they did, they didn't make their report.
As such that makes you a liar and someone willing to defame someone else to bolster their own position. As such, I can see why you may have had trouble at Hyde.
All that, and I'm the one drinking the cool-aid? Maybe, but at least I haven't told any lies here.
Why not admit you were wrong, that you thought there was a disclosure obligation, but really don't know for sure, and moreso, that you really had no basis to know if it did exist whether or not Hyde complied?
Either way, this is stupidity wrapped in lunacy. Rapes happen. Hopefully not to you me or anyone we love or care about, but they are a sad fact of life. That one may have happened at Hyde means very little, and I seriously doubt you were in a position to have any real incite in the appropriateness of how it was handled.
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Hydefan, one of the primal flaws of the Synanon method is that they do place other inmates in positions of authority over each other. If the article I read was accurate, the inmates also have a degree of authority over the staff. In fact, it looks very like the way Straightlings and Seedlings were required to report (or threaten to report) their parents to staff. If you didn't report something "questionable" and someone else did, you' run the risk of landing up on the hot-spot yourself for "having your awareness up your ass" or for "clicking"*
*[sic] Actually cliquing, but clicking is the way it was spelled in every obs book and rule sheet I ever saw. One dare not deem to correct the spelling of Sr. Staff. Not for YEARS, through thousands of clients!
Don't worry about temptation--as you grow older, it starts avoiding you.
-- Old Farmer's Almanac
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Antigen, I actually don't undertstand your presence here. I have read a fairly involved report on Seeds. It was profoundly troubling to read, and I have no trouble saying that that program seemed abusive to all on its face.
But for whatever similarities this might bare, Hyde was fundamentally different. I won't go into what I think those are here and of course, some would differ, but this stream is about an allegation of rape, and an allegation of violation of reporting laws!
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Did you say the Seed Program is abusive? Hmmm, weren't you the one to complain that another anonymous was making comments about Hyde that was slanderous? I find that when something triggers something in me, it is for a reason and I ask myself why?
Truth be told, these boards allow people to express their opinions and feelings, and it seems this is what is happening including OD, many "anonymous", Ginger Warbis, HydeFan, etc.
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You can put words in my mouth all you want, but that isn't what I said, nor what I was complaining about.
All I said was that seeds "seemed" abusive.
"Seems" is a word that tells the reader, Hey, the following is just my opinion. Fairly contrived for you to miss that.
Also since it is a statement of opinion, and in any event, not a statement that a crime was committed, it was also not defamatory....but I am presuming I might need to link you to another web site for more elaboration on that one.
Anyway, you said "Truth be told, these boards allow people to express their opinions and feelings"....well that's all I was doing, and I support your right to do it as well.
Now my backstory is that I was actually presuming Antigen had some gripes against Seeds, and having had one of my closest friends from their still experiencing the trauma of it 30 years later, was trying to be supportive.
My more relevant point was that I didn't understand Antigen's point in the context of the current topic. I was also wondering if Antigen was a Hyde alum.
Anyway, as an unmoderated forum, I suppose there are no rules, but it would help having any sort of discussion to stick to the facts, tell the truth, and try to stay on point. I promise to try and do the same! :smile:
[ This Message was edited by: HydeFan on 2005-10-03 23:49 ]
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On 2005-10-03 16:05:00, HydeFan wrote:
"Ok, I am not sure I can make this any clearer, but let me try one last time. The last sentence of your post correctly cut and past the "Circumstances" requiring a report to be filed.
CIRCUMSTANCES
When, while acting in a professional capacity, they know or have reasonable cause to suspect that a child has been or is likely to be abused or neglected.
WHAT YOU DIDN'T (SEEM TO) DO WAS CLICK ON THE BOX THAT SAID INCLUDE "Definitions of Child Abuse and Neglect" (now would be the time to do that).
NOW LOOK AT THE DEFINITION OF "ABUSE AND NEGLECT"....it says....
"Abuse or neglect means a threat to a child?s health or welfare by physical injury or impairment, by a person responsible for the child."
BY A PERSON RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CHILD. The abuse or neglect must be BY A PERSON RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CHILD. Not "BY" other students.
To make this perfectly clear, everytime you see the words "abuse and neglect" add the words BY SOMEONE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CHILD.
Is that "reasonably clear" enough?
Anyway, FWIW, I believe falsely stating someone else has committed a crime is defamation. I also don't think it would be too hard to find out your name after getting your IP address from the webhost in discovery.
As always, I stand ready to be wrong....but you (or someone like you) made the accusation that Hyde had acted criminally by not reporting a serious crime. You still haven't shown they had any such duty, and you definitely haven't shown that if they did, they didn't make their report.
As such that makes you a liar and someone willing to defame someone else to bolster their own position. As such, I can see why you may have had trouble at Hyde.
All that, and I'm the one drinking the cool-aid? Maybe, but at least I haven't told any lies here.
Why not admit you were wrong, that you thought there was a disclosure obligation, but really don't know for sure, and moreso, that you really had no basis to know if it did exist whether or not Hyde complied?
Either way, this is stupidity wrapped in lunacy. Rapes happen. Hopefully not to you me or anyone we love or care about, but they are a sad fact of life. That one may have happened at Hyde means very little, and I seriously doubt you were in a position to have any real incite in the appropriateness of how it was handled."
ok, here we go with the "defamation" lawsuit threats again. STFU with that BS. nothings going to happen.
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Once again, you missed the point.
First, it wasn't a threat, and I challenge you to find any words of threat in my post. Here's a definition to help you: A threat is a declaration of an intention to inflict harm. Go ahead now. Tell me where my threat is.
What I did do was state an opinion of the value of your (or your anonymous brethrens) posts, and what could happen as a result.
I am not Hyde, and I too don't think anything is likely to happen.
I was merely pointing out that the only crime I have real evidence of is what looks to me like defamation.
Defamation, by definition of course, would make you not only a liar, but a really serious liar.
And (IMHO) that's all anyone here needs to really know about you.
It discredits everything you say on these posts and reveals am apparent robust lack of integrity.
No wonder you don't like Hyde. You never really got it!
[ This Message was edited by: HydeFan on 2005-10-04 09:03 ]
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[ This Message was edited by: HydeFan on 2005-10-04 09:01 ]
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On 2005-10-04 08:55:00, HydeFan wrote:
"Once again, you missed the point.
First, it wasn't a threat, and I challenge you to find any words of threat in my post. Here's a definition to help you: A threat is a declaration of an intention to inflict harm. Go ahead now. Tell me where my threat is.
What I did do was state an opinion of the value of your (or your anonymous brethrens) posts, and what could happen as a result.
I am not Hyde, and I too don't think anything is likely to happen.
I was merely pointing out that the only crime I have real evidence of is what looks to me like defamation.
Defamation, by definition of course, would make you not only a liar, but a really serious liar.
And (IMHO) that's all anyone here needs to really know about you.
It discredits everything you say on these posts and reveals am apparent robust lack of integrity.
No wonder you don't like Hyde. You never really got it!
[ This Message was edited by: HydeFan on 2005-10-04 09:03 ]"
I never went to Hyde you presumptuous jackass. Nobody likes a know-it-all. I'm sure you already know that though. If you actually had a life or friends you wouldn't be constantly trolling here, now would you?
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Hmmmm. You didn't go to Hyde? Are you a Hyde parent? My comments would apply equally then.
Otherwise, why post here? And why constantly the subject into personal attacks?
There are still two challenges on the able:
1. Show that Hyde had a legal obligation to report this alledged rape, and
2. Show that if they had this duty, that they didn't.
Otherwise, let's start a new stream and have a more meaningful discussion.
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Well Duhhh, this person said that they didn't go to Hyde and then you asked if they were a Hyde parent. If you are familiar with Hyde, parents enroll at Hyde at the same time the child does!! I think you are a wannabee attorney!!
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On 2005-10-04 10:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Hmmmm. You didn't go to Hyde? Are you a Hyde parent? My comments would apply equally then.
Otherwise, why post here? And why constantly the subject into personal attacks?
There are still two challenges on the able:
1. Show that Hyde had a legal obligation to report this alledged rape, and
2. Show that if they had this duty, that they didn't.
Otherwise, let's start a new stream and have a more meaningful discussion.
"
blah blah blah