Fornits

Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Oscar on November 08, 2010, 09:26:14 AM

Title: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
Post by: Oscar on November 08, 2010, 09:26:14 AM
Homepage of the program (http://http://www.darckenu-israel.com/darckenu/)

38 days program taking place in the Israeli desert. It was not much we could add about it on the Wiki (http://http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=Darckenu_Israel).
Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
Post by: Ursus on November 08, 2010, 10:11:06 AM
From their homepage (http://http://www.darckenu-israel.com/darckenu/); colored emphasis as per the original:


...we gently steer them to discover their own abilities to make valuable choices and reinforce their self image.[/list]

Darckenu(*) Israel offers a 38 days' wilderness program in Israel for troubled teens guiding them to overcome emotional hardships, social issues, substance abuse and typical teenage behavioral challenges.

The program is simultaneously designed to lead parents to effective parenthood.
[/list]
Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
Post by: BuzzKill on November 08, 2010, 10:21:09 AM
Any chance of learning who owns the web site?
Title: Darckenu Israel - "Our way of doing things"
Post by: Ursus on November 08, 2010, 10:28:39 AM
More (http://http://www.darckenu-israel.com/darckenu/):


Our way of doing things

[/li][/list]
Title: Darckenu Israel - "Our program"
Post by: Ursus on November 08, 2010, 10:35:57 AM
Some more (http://http://www.darckenu-israel.com/darckenu/):


Our program

The young adults who walk the Darckenau trail face a series of physical and emotional challenges throughout their journey, and are guided to success with our consistent instruction and presence.

We teach, comfort and motivate them to explore their inner strength and develop sufficient confidence in their abilities. In the process, we gently steer them to discover their own abilities to make valuable choices and reinforce their self image. Parents are categorically an integrated part of this process.[/list]
Title: Darckenu Israel - "Our team"
Post by: Ursus on November 08, 2010, 10:45:02 AM
And finally, yet some more (http://http://www.darckenu-israel.com/darckenu/):


Our team

Led by Irit Abir, Shaul Abir and Einat Tzuk, professionals with extensive experience in training, counseling and education programs with youth at risk, Darckenau Israel trail guides are all young Israelis with a sense of mission and purpose.

Their past service in the Israeli Defense Forces, as commanders in a variety of elite units, is part of what defines their endless motivation to work with adolescence towards desired goals.[/list]
Title: registrant info / whois for darckenu-israel.com
Post by: Ursus on November 08, 2010, 10:49:51 AM
Quote from: "BuzzKill"
Any chance of learning who owns the web site?
Registrant info and WHOIS results (http://http://www.networksolutions.com/whois-search/darckenu-israel.com) for darckenu-israel.com from NetworkSolutions.com:


Current Registrar:      GODADDY.COM, INC.
IP Address:    62.219.7.10 (ARIN & RIPE IP search)
Lock Status:    clientDeleteProhibited

Registrant:
http://www.godaddy.com (http://www.godaddy.com))
Domain Name: DARCKENU-ISRAEL.COM
Administrative Contact:
[email protected] (http://mailto:[email protected])
box 127 ha'oren 11 st.
timrat,  36576
Israel
97246545567      Fax -- [/list]
Domain servers in listed order:
[/list][/list][/size]
Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
Post by: Froderik on November 08, 2010, 10:55:51 AM
This program would be a real punishment for Palestinian kids.
Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
Post by: seamus on November 08, 2010, 11:38:12 AM
:cheers: my thoughts exactly :roflmao:
Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
Post by: Froderik on November 08, 2010, 11:52:29 AM
Quote from: "seamus"
:cheers: my thoughts exactly :roflmao:

 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:
Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
Post by: Ursus on November 08, 2010, 12:13:42 PM
Inculcating a values system into a populace that increases the likelihood of their following the dictates of government, military, or corporate interests is best, or perhaps, more easily achieved whilst said populace is still in their formative years.
Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
Post by: Oscar on November 08, 2010, 01:28:07 PM
It seems that some part of their population want to maintain a certain rather old-fashioned model of parent - child interaction. I happened to see one episode of The world strictest parents (http://http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=The_world's_strictest_parents) where two British teenagers were sent to Israel to live with a local family according to their standards. Their guidelines for covering the girls up was not so far away from the standards in Iran.

Especially the British girl crumpled due to the harsh culture down there (http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8OeYpMYAac&p=0C4B7AE748C67B7C&playnext=1&index=18) and it was only for a week.
Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - "Our team"
Post by: Anne Bonney on November 08, 2010, 01:42:24 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
And finally, yet some more (http://http://www.darckenu-israel.com/darckenu/):


    Our team

    Led by Irit Abir, Shaul Abir and Einat Tzuk, professionals with extensive experience in training, counseling and education programs with youth at risk, Darckenau Israel trail guides are all young Israelis with a sense of mission and purpose.

    I wonder what that experience entails?  Are there any degreed counselors there?

    Quote
    Their past service in the Israeli Defense Forces, as commanders in a variety of elite units, is part of what defines their endless motivation to work with adolescence towards desired goals.[/list]

    Ah!  There's one question answered and a definite red flag raised. (Nothing to do with Israelis per se....just seems that a lot of these military types think they can "help" kids and create a mini boot camp.)
    Title: Irit and Shaul Abir; another enterprise
    Post by: Ursus on November 08, 2010, 02:04:43 PM
    Re. another enterprise of the Abirs, out of which Darckenu Israel probably evolved:

    Irit and Shaul Abir are a husband and wife team who offer "experiential workshops" to singles, couples, families, youth groups, schools, businesses, etc. on a variety of topics which could broadly be described as focused on "ethical" or "productive living." Perhaps I am overreaching myself with that impression. Perhaps it would be safer to suggest that the Abirs run some kind of "life coaching" business.

    From two pages on their website (http://http://www.irit-shaul.co.il/):


    IRIT AND SHAUL ABIR, Workshop Trainers

    Irit Abit, BA in Social Sciences and Humanities, MBA, Group Leader Program graduate, extensive experience in leading workshops in interpersonal communication, parenting, couple relationships, and improvement of service in organizations.

    Shaul Abir, BA in Psychology, advanced studies in organizational psychology and coping with high-pressure situations, extensive experience in consulting, in leading workshops in the areas of management, leadership, team development and human resource systems development, and in training both in Israel and in many countries worldwide.

    Both Irit and Shaul lead workshops in various fields and are also active in divorce mediation.

    We are married and have six children.

    --------------

    APPLIED INTERPERSONAL COMMUNICATION

    Interpersonal communication is the foundation of every relationship between human beings.

    Our communications are replete with subjective, sometimes unconscious interpretations that we perceive as "reality." With the aid of simple, relevant tools we can make our communications effective and useful.

    One way or another, everything we do touches on interpersonal communication and the ability to use it more successfully.

    We devote considerable attention to making our workshops practical and applicable for the participants.[/list]
    Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
    Post by: Yael Eshet Khever on November 09, 2010, 05:12:04 AM
    Interesting. I've noticed there's no Hebrew version of the site-- probably sticking to recruiting foreigners. I wonder where this thing is located (there are plenty of places that can be described as "desert", and you can't expect a foreigner to know when he's in the actual desert or not).
    As for the instructors being ex-military people-- everybody here is ex-military. And the military culture is different from the US military. Knowing what units these guys/girls come from can tell a lot about who you're dealing with. Btw-- the law here requires armed escorts during school trips.

    I don't think this thing's going to last long.
    Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
    Post by: Yael Eshet Khever on November 09, 2010, 05:17:08 AM
    Quote from: "Oscar"
    It seems that some part of their population want to maintain a certain rather old-fashioned model of parent - child interaction. I happened to see one episode of The world strictest parents (http://http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=The_world's_strictest_parents) where two British teenagers were sent to Israel to live with a local family according to their standards. Their guidelines for covering the girls up was not so far away from the standards in Iran.

    Especially the British girl crumpled due to the harsh culture down there (http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8OeYpMYAac&p=0C4B7AE748C67B7C&playnext=1&index=18) and it was only for a week.

    That family belongs to an extreme orthodox sect. This type of people are a relatively small minority here-- and thank god for that!
    Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
    Post by: try another castle on November 09, 2010, 10:56:54 PM
    Quote from: "Yael Eshet Khever"
    Interesting. I've noticed there's no Hebrew version of the site-- probably sticking to recruiting foreigners. I wonder where this thing is located (there are plenty of places that can be described as "desert", and you can't expect a foreigner to know when he's in the actual desert or not).
    As for the instructors being ex-military people-- everybody here is ex-military. And the military culture is different from the US military. Knowing what units these guys/girls come from can tell a lot about who you're dealing with. Btw-- the law here requires armed escorts during school trips.

    I don't think this thing's going to last long.

    I agree with you. I would imagine that Israeli parents would opt for something more sensible, such as a kibbutz, for any teen that is being a royal pain. This really does read as something for foreigners.
    Title: Irit and Shaul Abir workshops - Couplehood: Risk vs. Possibi
    Post by: Ursus on November 10, 2010, 02:06:55 PM
    Here are a few sample pages from the workshops section of Irit and Shaul Ibir's website: one from the 'Singles' section, one from the 'For Organizations' section, and one from the 'Drug and Alcohol Abuse' section.

    Although it's a bit difficult (for me) to assess something like this right off the bat, I would just like to point out that some of their workshops for adults seem to take on a rather "LGAT-like" format, and it does appear that they use NLP and/or teach some tricks from that tool basket.

    Here's the page under the heading of WORKSHOPS -> SINGLES -> Couplehood: Risk vs. Possibility:


    COUPLEHOOD: THE INTRA-COUPLE RELATIONSHIP - RISK vs. POSSIBILITY (http://http://www.irit-shaul.co.il/index.html)[/size]

    A DYNAMIC WORKSHOP FOR SINGLES

    OBJECTIVE OF THE WORKSHOP

    "Why am I still single?" - Gains and losses in the state of being "alone" and the state of being "together" - a brave journey into ourselves.

    WHO IS THE WORKSHOP INTENDED FOR?
    Singles of both sexes, age 30-plus.

    FRAMEWORK OF THE WORKSHOP
    The workshop will be held at a hotel, on full-board basis.
    It starts on Thursday at 6pm and continues into the night and all day Friday and Saturday, ending at 6pm on Saturday.
    (*)The hotel stay is part of the program, and no one may attend on an "external" basis.

    Three months later, a "What's Happening Now?" meeting, lasting 5 hours, will be held.

    WHAT DOES THE WORKSHOP DEAL WITH?
    The hands-on, experiential-dynamic workshop combines diverse theoretical background with simulations, games, exercises and experiences relating to the "psychology of the single." We'll address a variety of topics, among them:
    •What is couple relationship for me
    •What attracts me and what turns me off
    •My back room - what holds me back
    •My show window - what represents me
    •My ideal partner
    •Why haven't I found someone yet? The process of taking responsibility.
    •Interpersonal communication
    •Body language
    •Touching and enjoying (or not) - sex, and not just occasional?

    MEETING WITH THE WORKSHOP TRAINERS
    In order to tailor the workshop to the participants, to the greatest possible extent, we will meet with each participant individually, in order to jointly access the workshop's suitability to the participant, from the aspect of the content and the group. Each participant will define his or her personal goals.[/list]
    Title: Irit and Shaul Abir workshops - Youth Leaders' Support Group
    Post by: Ursus on November 10, 2010, 02:11:35 PM
    And... here is the page under the heading of WORKSHOPS -> FOR ORGANIZATIONS -> Youth Leaders' Support Group:


    SUPPORT GROUP FOR YOUTH LEADERS (http://http://www.irit-shaul.co.il/index.html)

    OBJECTIVE:
    To provide youth leaders with practical tools for performing the various tasks required of them.

    WHO ARE THE SUPPORT GROUPS INTENDED FOR?
    Youth leaders in municipal / local / regional frameworks, community centers, kibbutzim, clubs and sports teams.

    FRAMEWORK OF THE SUPPORT GROUPS
    The workshops will be tailored to the needs of the participants, both as to content and to the number and duration of sessions.

    CONTENTS:
    These hands-on, experiential support groups combine diverse theoretical background with simulations, games and exercises.
    Following are some of the topics that will be addressed during group activities:
    •Interpersonal communication - leader-youth, leader-parents, leader-various entities within the system
    •Channels of communication, according to the NLP model - tools for understanding our modes of communication and how we adapt them to the needs of others in order to achieve goals
    •Limits and borders - among the youth group members; between the leader and the group members, their parents, and others; the importance of limits; which limits we can waive; how to set the limits with cooperation from the group members
    •Nargilas (hookahs), alcohol, cigarettes, drugs - information, what's legal and what isn't, how to deal with the problem
    •Responsibility taking processes; how to assign responsibility to the young people
    •Personal conversation, group discussion, informal talks[/list]
    Title: Irit and Shaul Abir workshops - Preventing Drug & Alcohol Ab
    Post by: Ursus on November 10, 2010, 02:38:07 PM
    And finally, here is the page under the heading of WORKSHOPS -> DRUG & ALCOHOL ABUSE -> For Youth and Educators:


    DON'T TAKE CHANCES ON YOUR LIFE!

    WORKSHOPS AIMED AT PREVENTING DRUG AND ALCOHOL ABUSE AND INCREASING AWARENESS OF ITS DANGERS (http://http://www.irit-shaul.co.il/index.html)

    OBJECTIVE OF THE WORKSHOPS
    To provide information and tools to help prevent drug and alcohol abuse and to deal successfully with the pressures, the curiosity and the obstacles encountered during adolescence.

    WHO ARE THE WORKSHOPS INTENDED FOR?
    Youth, youth leaders, and educational, healthcare, welfare and police staff.

    FRAMEWORK OF THE WORKSHOPS
    The workshops will be tailored to the needs of the participants, both as to content and to the number and duration of sessions.
    •The youth workshops can be held both within the school framework and as part of the informal education system, i.e., at community centers, youth clubs, etc.

    WHAT DOES THE WORKSHOP DEAL WITH?
    These hands-on, experiential combine diverse theoretical background and up-to-date information with simulations, exercises and experiences.
    We'll address a variety of relevant topics, among them:
    •Characteristics of adolescence; pressures and adolescents' ways of coping with them
    •Peer pressure, pressure from authority, and reinforcing the adolescents' ability to say "NO!" to violence, drugs and alcohol
    •Hashish, marijuana, ecstasy and other drugs - the harm and the dangers
    •Alcohol - "harmless" yet dangerous
    •Everything we should know about nargilas (hookahs)
    •Methods of drug distribution and sale - how not to fall into a trap
    •Addiction processes
    •Being a good friend as opposed to informing on a friend
    •Responsibility taking process
    •Supporting factors[/list]
    Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
    Post by: Yael Eshet Khever on November 12, 2010, 11:08:40 AM
    The Hebrew version of the site says the same as the English one. Looks like they're trying to cover all bases in order to squeeze as much money from the "coaching" trend. Their other website presents them as focusing on divorce mediation. Irit is a psychology lecturer at a local (low-ranking) college, as well as a member of the kibbutz's admission committee.

    They're based up north, in the least desert-like part of the country, which makes me wonder if they're going to go all the way down south for the "Darkcenu" thing, or keep it closer to home, which could be problematic, considering the nearest desert location (southeast of Jerusalem, within the "territories") and the fact that the kids are foreigners (schools and organizations planning trips in these areas are expected to stay within a certain sector, obtain permits and inform the military and the police of their plans for their trip-- I'm sure the procedures are different, possibly more complex, for foreigners).

    Personally, I see them as a minor threat-- and, again, I don't expect the Darckenu thing to last long (if it even gets off the ground). Too many problems.
    Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
    Post by: Ursus on November 12, 2010, 02:06:16 PM
    Quote from: "Yael Eshet Khever"
    Looks like they're trying to cover all bases in order to squeeze as much money from the "coaching" trend.
    Yep. That'd be my bet also. They would also appear to be, however, super-focused on anti-drug hysteria. I'm not sure if that's simply the way the current social climate is in Israel these days, and whether the Abirs are merely capitalizing on it, or whether they are themselves ideologically suffused as well.

    Quote from: "Yael Eshet Khever"
    Their other website presents them as focusing on divorce mediation.
    Link?
    Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
    Post by: Yael Eshet Khever on November 12, 2010, 03:42:27 PM
    Quote from: "Ursus"
    Quote from: "Yael Eshet Khever"
    Looks like they're trying to cover all bases in order to squeeze as much money from the "coaching" trend.
    Yep. That'd be my bet also. They would also appear to be, however, super-focused on anti-drug hysteria. I'm not sure if that's simply the way the current social climate is in Israel these days, and whether the Abirs are merely capitalizing on it, or whether they are themselves ideologically suffused as well.

    To me, it just looks as if they're going for the standard "teen issues" thing. As far as I can tell, the current "devil" is the net and social networks. I find it strange that they're targeting nargilot in their "drugs and alcohol" workshop... nargilot can be used for smoking hashish, which is why it's illegal to sell them to minors, but people smoke them on the beach, in pubs, etc. They're generally acceptable.

    Quote from: "Yael Eshet Khever"
    Their other website presents them as focusing on divorce mediation.
    Link?[/quote]

    http://www.site.tiktech.net/websites/gishor/1768.asp (http://www.site.tiktech.net/websites/gishor/1768.asp) (in Hebrew). When you google them (in Hebrew, at least), almost all results connect them to divorce mediation.


    I wonder what inspired them to venture into the "brat camp" industry, though... they look like the type who are on the look out for a new market. It's strange for them to invest money and time in opening such a camp-- the main market, the US, is still in difficult times financially, and even without the financial problems, most Americans are convinced this entire country's a war zone and would not be too keen on sending their kids here. Targeting Israeli kids as clients would get the welfare services to snoop around the place sooner or later. So, why here, and why now?
    Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
    Post by: Gonzotherapy on November 12, 2010, 06:18:44 PM
    So why not? Israel sounds like the perfect place for a bratty American teenager. I mean any parent who is considering sending their kid to a program is already fringing on complete stupidity. Maybe that's what they are banking on. Do they take any camping trips on the Afghan/Pakistani border? How about RPG training?

    I am always one for conspiracy theories, how about this one. They are going to use the tried and true TTI methods of brainwashing to install terrorist sleepers in the United States. And, they are going to have dumbass American yuppies pay for it all. How fantastically ironic would that be?
    Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
    Post by: Pile of Dead Kids on November 12, 2010, 08:43:17 PM
    Does anyone have Hamas's phone number? I'm sure they'd love to know about this place.
    Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
    Post by: Shadyacres on November 12, 2010, 09:13:28 PM
    Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"
    So why not? Israel sounds like the perfect place for a bratty American teenager. I mean any parent who is considering sending their kid to a program is already fringing on complete stupidity. Maybe that's what they are banking on. Do they take any camping trips on the Afghan/Pakistani border? How about RPG training?

    I am always one for conspiracy theories, how about this one. They are going to use the tried and true TTI methods of brainwashing to install terrorist sleepers in the United States. And, they are going to have dumbass American yuppies pay for it all. How fantastically ironic would that be?

    Part of their one state solution, maybe?  It is significant, I think, that the differences that cause parents to put their kids into these places in the U.S. are often political in nature.  Marijuana legalization, Teen rights, Gay rights, interracial relationships, whatever.  Another major point of conflict in these families is religious beliefs.  Israel has both of these issues in abundance.  These places are scary enough in the States, their presence in a place like Israel is, if possible, even more disturbing.
    Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
    Post by: Oz girl on November 13, 2010, 12:21:48 AM
    It looks like it is designed for American Expats as it talks about getting away from the environment. It is pretty worrying that it is run by ex isralei army guys.
    I agree with shady acres that political or philosophical disagreement is a big factor. particularly it seems with religious programs that view god as the only answer. Given that there only seem to be christian schools for the religious market maybe these guys are targeting the orthodox or fundamentalist Jewish crowd?
    Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
    Post by: Yael Eshet Khever on November 14, 2010, 06:21:22 AM
    Quote from: "Shadyacres"
    Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"
    So why not? Israel sounds like the perfect place for a bratty American teenager. I mean any parent who is considering sending their kid to a program is already fringing on complete stupidity. Maybe that's what they are banking on. Do they take any camping trips on the Afghan/Pakistani border? How about RPG training?

    I am always one for conspiracy theories, how about this one. They are going to use the tried and true TTI methods of brainwashing to install terrorist sleepers in the United States. And, they are going to have dumbass American yuppies pay for it all. How fantastically ironic would that be?

    Part of their one state solution, maybe?  It is significant, I think, that the differences that cause parents to put their kids into these places in the U.S. are often political in nature.  Marijuana legalization, Teen rights, Gay rights, interracial relationships, whatever.  Another major point of conflict in these families is religious beliefs.  Israel has both of these issues in abundance.  These places are scary enough in the States, their presence in a place like Israel is, if possible, even more disturbing.

    I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're saying... you mean that there might be an involvement of religious organizations in this camp? From what I've read on their site, it seems unlikely. They do not address any issue that might apply to religious client/parents-- nothing about kashrut, separation between boys and girls, modesty, etc., which means they're not aiming at that market at all.
    Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
    Post by: Yael Eshet Khever on November 14, 2010, 06:31:56 AM
    Quote from: "Oz girl"
    It looks like it is designed for American Expats as it talks about getting away from the environment. It is pretty worrying that it is run by ex isralei army guys.

    That's the one thing that doesn't concern me. Our military culture does not include the whole screaming, abusive drill instructor shit-- there are authority figures, but things are different because the culture is different. Joining the military here is like going to college in the US-- going to a local trade school, or your local State U, or Yale, says something about your background, intelligence, etc. Same w/ military units. Back in grades 11-12, everybody's talking about what units are you going for, what tests have been invited for, how to get into X or Y, etc. You can make some assumptions about who you're dealing with based on the units they come from. People from top combat units are, normally, high quality, smart, motivated, hardworking people who usually come from strong socioeconomic background. People who end up in the top computer units are some of the most talents computer types in the country (which is why hi-tech companies here jump all over these guys the moment they're out). People who end up in ordinance are usually not too smart, and it can be safely assumed they're not too motivated either. Etc.

    High quality people from the top combat units are usually very socially aware, which is why you can find many opf them volunteering in various project, whether it is w/ disabled people, children in need, or refugees. That's the type of people we're dealing w/ here-- it's just that they mistakenly assume that that's what they're getting into, since they're not aware about "brat camps".

    Quote
    I agree with shady acres that political or philosophical disagreement is a big factor. particularly it seems with religious programs that view god as the only answer. Given that there only seem to be christian schools for the religious market maybe these guys are targeting the orthodox or fundamentalist Jewish crowd?

    I haven't seen any evidence of that in their website. Not a single reference to religion, mitzvot, modesty or kashrut. Looks to me like they're going for the average American yuppie.
    Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
    Post by: Ursus on November 15, 2010, 10:27:51 AM
    Fwiw, the thing that stands out most for me re. the general tenor of the Abir's website is a focus on psych methods to alter folks' perceptions of themselves and/or others and/or their behavior. That is, what would ordinarily come under the rubric of "life coaching" with some concentration on youth-at-risk and the adults who deal with them on a professional or informal basis. Whether or not the Abirs dedicate themselves to this with any ideological fervor is unclear.

    The language on the Darckenu website is a little different, although it still seems to have been written by the same person. I have to wonder whether this troubled teen wilderness focus might come from Einat Tzuk, the third person noted as heading this program.

    Incidentally, there's a fair amount of overlap between the troubled teen industry, LGATs, and the "life coaching" or "motivational speaking" binnises. All of these fields utilize psych tricks and experiential methods brought into public consciousness by the human potential movement, often utilizing the group format as part of the experience. Note that, save for the divorce mediation endeavors, the Abirs choose to present their material in workshops or seminars for the benefit of multiple participants.

    Of course, this type of program/event should not be confused with actual genuine therapy which is individualized as per the client's needs. Unfortunately, the reasons folks seek out these kinds of operations are often the same reasons they might have opted for therapy instead.
    Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
    Post by: Yael Eshet Khever on November 15, 2010, 11:09:14 AM
    Einat Tzuk is the HR/training director of a high tech company. She also seems to be very involved in her company's social contribution efforts-- I came across an article about her presenting gifts to talented teachers at a high school, and another about her involvement in donating to/funding programs to assist students at a different school. This could be nothing but plain philanthropy, or it could be something more sinister-- I don't have enough info to know.

    Ursus -
    I agree that there's a lot of connection between the "life coaching" trend and LGAT's, the Troubled Teens industry, etc. One of the effects of the "coaching" trend is the promotion of non-proved, possibly unsafe methods as a replacement for proper therapy-- which is turn opens the door to other types of unproved, unsafe "therapy". I wonder how much of LGAT techniques are the Abirs combining into these seminars. I'll try to see if there is any info available. The large-group setting is definitely a red flag.

    The Human Potential Movement was the first public promotion of LGAT methods, but it goes further than that-- remember those American POW's who, at the end of the Korean War, renounced their own country and refused to be reptriated? And even before that, there was Mao, who developed and refined these methods and most probably taught them to the Koreans. Like that old Rocky Mountain News article said, in the US, these methods took on a new American twist: they make money. And that makes them even more dangerous, since it enables them to spread further.
    Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
    Post by: Ursus on November 19, 2010, 10:55:38 PM
    Quote from: "Yael Eshet Khever"
    Einat Tzuk is the HR/training director of a high tech company. She also seems to be very involved in her company's social contribution efforts-- I came across an article about her presenting gifts to talented teachers at a high school, and another about her involvement in donating to/funding programs to assist students at a different school. This could be nothing but plain philanthropy, or it could be something more sinister-- I don't have enough info to know.
    A lot of philanthropy these days seems to be tethered to public relations and/or marketing agendas. I'm not saying that's good or bad, but it does tend to present the "donating" company in a light that is, sometimes, perhaps more flattering than deserved.
    Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
    Post by: Ursus on November 19, 2010, 11:08:52 PM
    Quote from: "Yael Eshet Khever"
    The Human Potential Movement was the first public promotion of LGAT methods, but it goes further than that-- remember those American POW's who, at the end of the Korean War, renounced their own country and refused to be reptriated? And even before that, there was Mao, who developed and refined these methods and most probably taught them to the Koreans. Like that old Rocky Mountain News article said, in the US, these methods took on a new American twist: they make money. And that makes them even more dangerous, since it enables them to spread further.
    And who was before Mao? I suspect this kind of peer group confrontation was used in POW camps/prisons in Asia prior to the second Sino-Japanese conflict even. But that does seem to be about the time the Occidental world began to study it for use as a tool in their own war-making efforts. ...I could be wrong, though!  :D
    Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
    Post by: Ursus on November 20, 2010, 12:43:38 AM
    Quote from: "Yael Eshet Khever"
    Ursus -
    I agree that there's a lot of connection between the "life coaching" trend and LGAT's, the Troubled Teens industry, etc. One of the effects of the "coaching" trend is the promotion of non-proved, possibly unsafe methods as a replacement for proper therapy-- which is turn opens the door to other types of unproved, unsafe "therapy". I wonder how much of LGAT techniques are the Abirs combining into these seminars. I'll try to see if there is any info available. The large-group setting is definitely a red flag.
    Some food for thought:

    [/li][/list]
    See also the following thread:

    NLP: Evolving the Double Bind
    viewtopic.php?f=81&t=30591 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=81&t=30591)[/list][/li][/list]

    All that said, I don't want to make the mistake of making a mountain out of a molehill. This kind of stuff may not be *my* cup of tea, but people have the right to explore whatever mind-blowing insights into the makeup of their psyches or other experiential bullshit that's presented at the buffet of newage hoopla and ballyhoo that they want. It's not so much the contents of these seminars and workshops that I usually have a problem with (although sometimes it is), it's more the techniques that are employed to present it and market it which make me more than a lil uneasy. And when these techniques of persuasion or inculcation are foisted on a naive population, e.g., adolescents... I get a bit on the offensive.

    I also have the impression that many of these "trainers" or other such professionals presume a level of sophistication or competence in these explorations in even their adult clients, which often is simply not the case. And people sometimes suffer damage as a consequence, sometimes even mortal damage (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28923).

    Incidentally, to the Abirs' credit, I noticed that several of their workshops indicate that they prefer to meet beforehand with potential participants in order to ascertain suitability. Whether that is actually the case, namely, that they do weed some folks out, or whether that language is simply there to present a responsible facade ... is an unknown.
    Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
    Post by: Abir on November 24, 2010, 05:04:51 PM
    Hi,
    I am Shaul Abir one of the co-founders of Darckenu Israel. I have read most of the thread and i would like to invite whoever would like to, to ask me directly any question you might have and i will be more than happy to elaborate. Just to let you know, within a few days our site will be on and i am sure a lot of questions that have been raised will be answered.
    Wishing you a pleaseant day.
    Shaul
    Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
    Post by: Ursus on November 27, 2010, 11:02:17 AM
    Quote from: "Abir"
    Hi,
    I am Shaul Abir one of the co-founders of Darckenu Israel. I have read most of the thread and i would like to invite whoever would like to, to ask me directly any question you might have and i will be more than happy to elaborate. Just to let you know, within a few days our site will be on and i am sure a lot of questions that have been raised will be answered.
    Wishing you a pleaseant day.
    Shaul
    Welcome, Shaul. Thank you for posting. For starters, I am curious as to why you, your wife, and Einat Tzuk chose to go the route of starting a "troubled teen" wilderness program. I am also curious as to where the wording of your Darckenu Israel website (still just the one page as of now) owes its origins. It sounds very much like some of the U.S.-based programs that we are more familiar with.
    Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
    Post by: Abir on December 03, 2010, 11:32:23 AM
    Thanks Ursus,
    As to your first question, Irit, Einat & myself  have been working with troubled teens (and their parents) for many years, and we were very successful (if I may say that…).

    In addition, as a kid I was something like what is called today "troubled teenager". Obviously I suffered a lot and luckily enough I was able to overcome great difficulties and pull myself together.

    When I grew up, I was able to study and developed a career in HR, Training, consultancy and organizational psychology and worked a lot with my wife Irit in helping families in various ways (workshops, trainings, mediations, lectures, coaching and more). May I add that in many cases we volunteered to do so…Why? Because I never forget where I came from…

    In recent years we thought about developing & leading a program that fits our philosophy (in regard to troubled teens and their families). We wanted to use our experiences and know how for the benefit of troubled teens and their families.

    It took us some time to develop it, check options and possibilities and finally practically doing it…

    We heard a lot about wilderness programs and some years ago started to investigate it. As usually with concepts, we liked some ideas, we did not like others and we created our own wilderness program that is applicable in Israel.

    And here we are ready to do things differently, not a boot camp, not a brat camp and not against the teenager's will.

    How? We invite you to visit our site, look at it and I am sure things will be clear.

    The bottom line: For the three of us, it is a dream that comes true!
    That answers (hopefully) your first question.  

    As to your second question: All the materials, wordings etc… were written by us in Hebrew and translated by our copywriter- translator.
    When you visit our site I am sure that you will be able to notice the uniqueness of the program we offer as well as the originality of the written materials.
    If you have any other questions or doubts please do not hesitate to contact me.
    Merry Christmas/happy Chanukah

    Shaul Abir
    Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
    Post by: Anne Bonney on December 03, 2010, 12:19:15 PM
    Quote from: "Abir"
    Thanks Ursus,
    As to your first question, Irit, Einat & myself  have been working with troubled teens (and their parents) for many years, and we were very successful (if I may say that…).

    In what capacity and with what credentials?

    Quote
    In addition, as a kid I was something like what is called today "troubled teenager". Obviously I suffered a lot and luckily enough I was able to overcome great difficulties and pull myself together.

    As most teens do.

    Quote
    When I grew up, I was able to study and developed a career in HR, Training, consultancy and organizational psychology and worked a lot with my wife Irit in helping families in various ways (workshops, trainings, mediations, lectures, coaching and more). May I add that in many cases we volunteered to do so…Why? Because I never forget where I came from…

    In recent years we thought about developing & leading a program that fits our philosophy (in regard to troubled teens and their families). We wanted to use our experiences and know how for the benefit of troubled teens and their families.

    Again, I'd like to ask in what capacity and what credentials do you have to deal with so-called "troubled teens"?


    Quote
    We heard a lot about wilderness programs and some years ago started to investigate it. As usually with concepts, we liked some ideas, we did not like others and we created our own wilderness program that is applicable in Israel.

    And here we are ready to do things differently, not a boot camp, not a brat camp and not against the teenager's will.

    How? We invite you to visit our site, look at it and I am sure things will be clear.

    No offense intended, but a website doesn't really give a clear picture of what actually goes on.  Most of the abusive programs here (in the U.S.) have fabulous websites with wonderful pictures of happy kids just hanging out in nature and making great friends.  The facts are quite the opposite.
    Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
    Post by: BuzzKill on December 03, 2010, 08:43:49 PM
    Anne is right that what the web sites mean very little to nothing.  Frankly, neither do assurances that you won't hire counselors who get their kicks tormenting kids, or that you are devoted to helping them. The fact that you are opening a wilderness program is especially troubling due to the American experience with them.  The danger is in taking a pack of goof-ball kids into harsh and extreme environments, and then refusing to believe them when they complain of illness and/or serious pain. This refusal to believe sick and hurting kids all to often results in their tortuous death. The extreme and remote locations of the outdoor programs increase this risk, but the same kind of gross negligence and cruelty has killed kids in facilities in cities all across the USA.

    If you truly want to avoid tragedy, please read: Help at Any Cost, how the troubled teen industry cons parents and hurts kids, by Maia Szalavitz; and pay attention.

    You should also Google:

    Aaron Bacon+North Star Expeditions
    Michelle Sutton+Summit Quest
    Ian August+Skyline Journey
    Nicholaus Contreraz+AZ boys ranch
    Roberto Reyes+Thayer Learning center

    For a start.

    Every one of these places and many more say/said just about exactly what you do.
    Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
    Post by: heretik on December 03, 2010, 11:27:47 PM
    Abir, can you please explain what is your clinical idea of a "troubled teen". You spoke of your credentials, I was wondering if you would elaborate in more depth as to your individual and group counseling abilities. Last do you have any employment history with other programs you would like to share more on. Does your past history working at programs resemble the one you are creating and how does it.

    Thanks
    Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
    Post by: Ursus on December 04, 2010, 01:02:58 AM
    Quote from: "Abir"
    ...And here we are ready to do things differently, not a boot camp, not a brat camp and not against the teenager's will.

    How? We invite you to visit our site, look at it and I am sure things will be clear.
    Thanks for your reply, Shaul. Unfortunately, your website (http://http://www.darckenu-israel.com) is still, as of now, just the one page. This makes it a bit difficult for "things [to] be clear," since your wilderness program philosophy, such as it may be, is somewhat less than adequately expounded upon. Perhaps the lack of clarity is just due to my own obtuseness, or perhaps some things were inadvertently left out by the translator(s)?

    What does it mean, for example, to be "walking your choices?" What exactly is the "Darckenau trail?" And what methods of persuasion do you play to employ, when you "gently steer [troubled teens] to discover their own abilities to make valuable choices and reinforce their self image?" And how, if you could perchance be specific, are parents "categorically an integrated part of this process?"
    Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
    Post by: Whooter on December 04, 2010, 05:09:35 PM
    I think this is a unique opportunity to take a look at what a few people view as the latest design of a wilderness program.  They seem to be compassionate about helping kids.  They have conducted research and want to eliminate what they view as  the bad points of the present wilderness programs and form a new program.  This may be the next step in an ever evolving industry.



    ...
    Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
    Post by: Ursus on December 05, 2010, 10:55:28 AM
    Quote from: "Whooter"
    I think this is a unique opportunity to take a look at what a few people view as the latest design of a wilderness program.  They seem to be compassionate about helping kids.  They have conducted research and want to eliminate what they view as  the bad points of the present wilderness programs and form a new program.  This may be the next step in an ever evolving industry.
    I am curious as to *what* this "latest design" happens to be. Thus far, there has been very little information forthcoming. Certainly nothing to dissuade me from thinking that it's little more than variations on an old old theme, were I inclined to prejudge like that.

    What kind of "research" have they conducted? What exactly are those "bad points" that they want to eliminate? Are you Darckenu Israel's spokesperson now, Whooter?
    Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
    Post by: Whooter on December 05, 2010, 11:19:55 AM
    Quote from: "Ursus"
    I am curious as to *what* this "latest design" happens to be. Thus far, there has been very little information forthcoming. Certainly nothing to dissuade me from thinking that it's little more than variations on an old old theme, were I inclined to prejudge like that.

    I tend to be more open minded than most here.  So far they have not shown themselves to have a rich history in the Present TTI,  have verbalized an intention of not wanting to duplicate the wilderness models here in the US. So I am still open to their ideas and curious.

    Quote
    What kind of "research" have they conducted? What exactly are those "bad points" that they want to eliminate?

    I am interested as you are.

    Quote
    Are you Darckenu Israel's spokesperson now, Whooter?

     Oh No!! Don't mention this to DJ. He will lead readers around by the nose once again with his latest theories.   I am sure he can figure out some time lines and past posts that tie me to this new wilderness endeavor and instead of John he will call me Taaveti.  If you come across any past posts (under TheWho name) where it says I had meetings in Israel can you delete them for me?  lol



    ...
    Title: TTI spokesperson, "doin' it international" now...
    Post by: Ursus on December 05, 2010, 02:36:52 PM
    Quote from: "Whooter"
    Quote from: "Ursus"
    Are you Darckenu Israel's spokesperson now, Whooter?
    Oh No!! Don't mention this to DJ. He will lead readers around by the nose once again with his latest theories. I am sure he can figure out some time lines and past posts that tie me to this new wilderness endeavor and instead of John he will call me Taaveti. If you come across any past posts (under TheWho name) where it says I had meetings in Israel can you delete them for me? lol
    I actually asked you this question in all seriousness, Whooter, since you seemed to imply a certain authority with regard to the Abirs' endeavors in your previous post (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=31636&start=30#p388215). Your attempt to turn my question into an opportunity for over the top exaggeration and obfuscation makes me wonder... Nevertheless, my comment on that:

    When I bought your old account 'TheWho' as per the conditions of that fund raiser two years ago, I decided to leave everything exactly as it was. I won't be deleting anything, for anyone's sake. You, of all people, should know how I am 'bout "historical preservation" by now.  :D

    Of course, "who" woulda known just how many additional posts you made back then on the side, posing as others and posting numerous conversations with yourself to imply more universal agreement with your theories and so called analysis, lol. Maybe it wasn't such a good idea to agree to having all those guest posts from your IP addies linked up to your account. My museum piece ended up more than doubled in size, thanks to Psy's due diligence in carrying out your and DJ's requests for said link up.
    Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
    Post by: Ursus on December 05, 2010, 02:43:07 PM
    Quote from: "Whooter"
    Quote from: "Ursus"
    I am curious as to *what* this "latest design" happens to be. Thus far, there has been very little information forthcoming. Certainly nothing to dissuade me from thinking that it's little more than variations on an old old theme, were I inclined to prejudge like that.
    I tend to be more open minded than most here. So far they have not shown themselves to have a rich history in the Present TTI, have verbalized an intention of not wanting to duplicate the wilderness models here in the US. So I am still open to their ideas and curious.
    No comment on your self descriptive of being "more open minded."

    As to Darckenu Israel's claims of creating their own wilderness program, they have still somehow managed to say surprisingly little of any substance about it. In Shaul Abir's words, from his previous post (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=31636&start=30#p388086):

    In recent years we thought about developing & leading a program that fits our philosophy (in regard to troubled teens and their families). We wanted to use our experiences and know how for the benefit of troubled teens and their families.

    It took us some time to develop it, check options and possibilities and finally practically doing it…

    We heard a lot about wilderness programs and some years ago started to investigate it. As usually with concepts, we liked some ideas, we did not like others and we created our own wilderness program that is applicable in Israel.

    And here we are ready to do things differently, not a boot camp, not a brat camp and not against the teenager's will.
    [/list]

    What does the above statement actually mean in real life terms? Quite frankly, it sounds more like it came from a marketing one sheet than anything else. It states having a concrete concept or philosophy in mind, it states having relevant knowledge and notes additional investigation of such, but it doesn't actually commit to any specifics as to what that concept is, what that knowledge is comprised of, or what the additional investigation pertained to or unearthed.

    What exactly *IS* their "philosophy" with regard to troubled teens and their families?

    And what do they mean by "not against the teenager's will?" Is that consent fully informed? And, if that is even possible to bring about, what about those circumstances where a Darckenau Israel trek is simply the lesser evil of few options?
    Title: Re: TTI spokesperson, "doing it international" now...
    Post by: Whooter on December 05, 2010, 04:11:37 PM
    Quote from: "Ursus"
    Quote from: "Whooter"
    Quote from: "Ursus"
    Are you Darckenu Israel's spokesperson now, Whooter?
    Oh No!! Don't mention this to DJ. He will lead readers around by the nose once again with his latest theories. I am sure he can figure out some time lines and past posts that tie me to this new wilderness endeavor and instead of John he will call me Taaveti. If you come across any past posts (under TheWho name) where it says I had meetings in Israel can you delete them for me? lol
    I actually asked you this question in all seriousness, Whooter, since you seemed to imply a certain authority with regard to the Abirs' endeavors in your previous post (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=31636&start=30#p388215). Your attempt to turn my question into an opportunity for over the top exaggeration and obfuscation makes me wonder... Nevertheless, my comment on that:

    When I bought your old account 'TheWho' as per the conditions of that fund raiser two years ago, I decided to leave everything exactly as it was. I won't be deleting anything, for anyone's sake. You, of all people, should know how I am 'bout "historical preservation" by now.  :D

    Of course, "who" woulda known just how many additional posts you made back then on the side, posing as others and posting numerous conversations with yourself to imply more universal agreement with your theories and so called analysis, lol. Maybe it wasn't such a good idea to agree to having all those guest posts from your IP addies linked up to your account. My museum piece ended up more than doubled in size, thanks to Psy's due diligence in carrying out your and DJ's requests for said link up.

    I think you even got a few months of "Whooter" posts thrown in!  If I had anything to hide I would have just had "Thewho" account deleted and started the new one "Whooter".  I think you know by now that I stand behind all my posts.  If there was a specific post that causes you heart burn or you felt needed clarification I am always willing to discuss them with you or with anyone.  Everything I post is to further a discussion, well except maybe in the "TheWho" thread. lol



    ...
    Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
    Post by: Whooter on December 05, 2010, 04:20:41 PM
    Quote from: "Ursus"

    As to Darckenu Israel's claims of creating their own wilderness program, they have still somehow managed to say surprisingly little of any substance about it. In Shaul Abir's words, from his previous post (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=31636&start=30#p388086):

      In recent years we thought about developing & leading a program that fits our philosophy (in regard to troubled teens and their families). We wanted to use our experiences and know how for the benefit of troubled teens and their families.

      It took us some time to develop it, check options and possibilities and finally practically doing it…

      We heard a lot about wilderness programs and some years ago started to investigate it. As usually with concepts, we liked some ideas, we did not like others and we created our own wilderness program that is applicable in Israel.

      And here we are ready to do things differently, not a boot camp, not a brat camp and not against the teenager's will.
      [/list]

      What does the above statement actually mean in real life terms? Quite frankly, it sounds more like it came from a marketing one sheet than anything else. It states having a concrete concept or philosophy in mind, it states having relevant knowledge and notes additional investigation of such, but it doesn't actually commit to any specifics as to what that concept is, what that knowledge is comprised of, or what the additional investigation pertained to or unearthed.

      What exactly *IS* their "philosophy" with regard to troubled teens and their families?

      And what do they mean by "not against the teenager's will?" Is that consent fully informed? And, if that is even possible to bring about, what about those circumstances where a Darckenau Israel trek is simply the lesser evil of few options?

      I expected a little more detail on their philosophy than they gave but my expectations are not that they will tell the readers how many miles they hike per day.  When I was at SUWS of the Carolinas there we 2 kids who really enjoyed the experience.  They were brought up with a lot of hiking and fishing so took the wilderness as a challenge.  So I could see this new program as taking only kids who are willing.

      The kids may have the option of getting a job and working all summer or going to this wilderness program.  many kids would go for wilderness.



      ...
      Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
      Post by: Abir on December 06, 2010, 02:45:07 PM
      Hi all,
      1. Our site is "on the air" so you are more than welcome to visit, read and understand more about us, our concept, philosophy etc...so I am sure that many questions raised here previously by some members, will be more clear (we are still working on the site, some things will be added and corrections will be made in the next few days).

      2. I was somewhat surprised in regards to the many speculations, comments and ideas expressed here (some of them are pure insult if i may say this) based on nothing but a homepage with a notice that "our site is coming soon".

      3. Among the many questions and points raised was one that I would like to answer: "...not against the teenager will" - That means that we will not accept to the program teenagers who do not want to participate in it! even if their parents want to! As simple as that. Just to let you know, we have in our site a mini site designed for teenagers in order to enable them to speak with us directly and get all the information they need.

      4. Since I am the only one here that is not "under cover" meaning my details, name, address, phone numbers, email etc...are known to all,
       I would like to suggest to anyone who is really interested to know more about our program, to contact me by e mail directly and i will be more than happy to discuss things, explain and elaborate.

      wishing you  all
      Happy Chanuka and Merry Christmass
      Shaul
      Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
      Post by: heretik on December 06, 2010, 07:01:20 PM
      Quote from: "Abir"
      Hi all,
      1. Our site is "on the air" so you are more than welcome to visit, read and understand more about us, our concept, philosophy etc...so I am sure that many questions raised here previously by some members, will be more clear (we are still working on the site, some things will be added and corrections will be made in the next few days).

      2. I was somewhat surprised in regards to the many speculations, comments and ideas expressed here (some of them are pure insult if i may say this) based on nothing but a homepage with a notice that "our site is coming soon".

      3. Among the many questions and points raised was one that I would like to answer: "...not against the teenager will" - That means that we will not accept to the program teenagers who do not want to participate in it! even if their parents want to! As simple as that. Just to let you know, we have in our site a mini site designed for teenagers in order to enable them to speak with us directly and get all the information they need.

      4. Since I am the only one here that is not "under cover" meaning my details, name, address, phone numbers, email etc...are known to all,
       I would like to suggest to anyone who is really interested to know more about our program, to contact me by e mail directly and i will be more than happy to discuss things, explain and elaborate.

      wishing you  all
      Happy Chanuka and Merry Christmass
      Shaul

      Shalom Aleichem,
      Let me be the first to say I truly do not believe anyone was trying to insult you. Just that brash American personality. To get right to my point what you may be mistaking as a insult could be looked at another way, fear. Fear that another program maybe coming on board that will be discriminating against children rights, fear that another program is being introduced that does not enable parents and other interested parties a chance to really see under the covers and the ever presence fear that most feel here when we hear another program is coming on line, that this program will be like ours and hurt more children.
      Abir, this site has members who actually went through programs that were extremely unhealthy, we are constantly advocating against anymore programs. This is not to say your vision of a program will not benefit children, I just have not seen many that do.
      I will take you up on your offer to email you. I promise to keep my questions to a minimum, as I'm sure others will be emailing also.
      Thanks for your efforts, Abir.
      Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
      Post by: Yael Eshet Khever on December 07, 2010, 06:17:05 AM
      Quote from: "Abir"
      Hi all,
      1. Our site is "on the air" so you are more than welcome to visit, read and understand more about us, our concept, philosophy etc...so I am sure that many questions raised here previously by some members, will be more clear (we are still working on the site, some things will be added and corrections will be made in the next few days).

      2. I was somewhat surprised in regards to the many speculations, comments and ideas expressed here (some of them are pure insult if i may say this) based on nothing but a homepage with a notice that "our site is coming soon".

      Shaul - many of the speculation of people here are based on fear that your program will use the exact same false-marketing tactics and unethical practices used by many, many other programs, often with tragic results.

      Quote
      3. Among the many questions and points raised was one that I would like to answer: "...not against the teenager will" - That means that we will not accept to the program teenagers who do not want to participate in it! even if their parents want to! As simple as that. Just to let you know, we have in our site a mini site designed for teenagers in order to enable them to speak with us directly and get all the information they need.

      That's good to hear. As you may know, many of the "teen help" programs in the industry use what is euphemistically called a "transportation / escort service" - which essentially means kidnapping the teen (with their parents' approval) out of their bed in the middle of the night, and detaining them in the program against their will without due process. I hope you will not turn to coercing teens into your program.
      Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
      Post by: Abir on December 08, 2010, 11:47:52 AM
      Heretik and Yael Shalom,
      Thank you for your information and highlights.

      I was not aware of the following:

      "many of the "teen help" programs in the industry use what is euphemistically called a "transportation / escort service" - which essentially means kidnapping the teen (with their parents' approval) out of their bed in the middle of the night, and detaining them in the program against their will without due process."

      I fully condem those kinds of practices and can assure you that we will never do that!
      Thanks again
      Shaul
      Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
      Post by: Ursus on December 10, 2010, 12:49:03 PM
      Quote from: "Abir"
      Heretik and Yael Shalom,
      Thank you for your information and highlights.

      I was not aware of the following:

      "many of the "teen help" programs in the industry use what is euphemistically called a "transportation / escort service" - which essentially means kidnapping the teen (with their parents' approval) out of their bed in the middle of the night, and detaining them in the program against their will without due process."

      I fully condem those kinds of practices and can assure you that we will never do that!
      Thanks again
      Shaul
      Depending on the kid and on the program, there are also less extreme measures which can accomplish the same goal. A visit with an empathetic church counselor or school guidance counselor, which ends with being handed over to a pair of uniformed "escorts." A family excursion "to the country" or Disney World or similar such desired location, which ends with arrival at the program. These all involve a fair amount of deception on the part of formerly trusted adult figures in the kid's life.

      And then there are cases of kids going to a program willingly, seemingly fully aware of and in agreement with said destination. Problem is, the description of the program, not to mention its philosophy and the purposes for which the kid is being sent there, are not in keeping with the information that the kid was given. By the time the kid figures that out, it's usually too late. Sometimes the parents are even similarly misinformed, although usually not quite to the same degree.

      For a kid to go to a program "not against their will," to *my* mind at least, any such consent should by rights entail a certain amount of disclosure and transparency on the program's part. Consent that is not fully informed is not really "consent" at all. How will you ensure that children and their parents will be fully informed as to what to expect from your program, Shaul?
      Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
      Post by: Abir on December 10, 2010, 03:39:44 PM
      Hi Ursus,
      I will do my best to answer:
      1. As mentioned before (and it is also mentioned in our website), We do not accept kids who do not want to join the program even if their parents want them to do so.
      2. The parents are a very important part of our program: they have to commit themselves and come for 8 days (from day 30th to day 38) and participate in various trainings and workshops (for details please see the "parents' program part in our website).
      3. We will have a Teen Zone in our website (coming very soon, right now yo can see only the homepage of our Teen Zone)) in which we explain in details everything in regard to the program. We do intend to talk to each kid and make sure he/she understands what it is all about.
      4. We are totally transparent in regards to everything starting from the cost, cancellation policy, enrollment agreement and a quiet detailed website that presents everything we could think about.
      5. Our "philosophy", way of doing things, way of thinking etc...is clearly presented in our site, and the words there are so straightforward and sharp clear.

      And on top of all, our values and ethics will not permit using deception in order to build trust...It simply does not make sense !!! How could one build trust based on lies and deception?

      In addition, by the end of the day you could believe me or not...I hope that the more we talk, exchange ideas and know each other better, trust will be built between us and the other members that read these lines.
      have a good weekend,
      shaul
      Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
      Post by: Ursus on December 14, 2010, 12:36:29 AM
      AHah! I see that you've finally updated your website (http://http://www.darckenu-israel.com/)! Now we actually have some real meat to chew on (apologies to any vegetarians reading this)...

      One question that I have right off the bat, and one that was actually inspired by your post, prior to discovering the substantially updated website, is ... how will you screen kids and their parents — with regard to the question of appropriate fit for your program as well as fully informed consent issues — prior to the undertaking of a "Darckenu walk?" Will you be conducting any prescreening in the country of residence? Pragmatically speaking, and perhaps also crudely stated, round-trip airfare from the United States to Israel for two adults plus child is no small piece of change.
      Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
      Post by: Abir on December 15, 2010, 01:18:51 AM
      hi Ursus,
      1. No prescreening process will be conducted in the country of residence. We will use questionnaires, phone conversations, skype, e mail etc...Our professionals will contact other professionals as needed (consultants, psychologists, MD's etc...). This is true for parents and kids.

      2. True, flight tickets costs are around 1200 USD per person (round trip) depending on from where they are departing in the USA and when. We know that our program is unique and different (and I think that you may have noticed this as well), so families would consider it from all aspects not only the financial one. How would you quantify in USD the value of helping a kid that was lost....I am sure that it is way more than 25K USD...
      have a good weekend
      Shaul
      Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
      Post by: Oscar on December 15, 2010, 05:26:53 PM
      Research made a second wilderness program pop up. It is called Lotan's way named after a soldier who died during one of the wars down there.

      Lotan's Way - homepage (http://http://www.lotan-way.com/english/)
      Facebook group (http://http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=111741245510901)
      More background as some visited the parents of the death soldier (http://http://whereislena.blogspot.com/2009_04_01_archive.html)
      Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
      Post by: Ursus on December 18, 2010, 12:26:30 AM
      Quote from: "Oscar"
      Research made a second wilderness program pop up. It is called Lotan's way named after a soldier who died during one of the wars down there.

      Lotan's Way - homepage (http://http://www.lotan-way.com/english/)
      Facebook group (http://http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=111741245510901)
      More background as some visited the parents of the death soldier (http://http://whereislena.blogspot.com/2009_04_01_archive.html)
      New thread in the event that this program warrants a closer look, one way or the other:

      Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
      Post by: Ursus on January 27, 2011, 12:39:50 PM
      Quote from: "Abir"
      hi Ursus,
      1. No prescreening process will be conducted in the country of residence. We will use questionnaires, phone conversations, skype, e mail etc...Our professionals will contact other professionals as needed (consultants, psychologists, MD's etc...). This is true for parents and kids.

      2. True, flight tickets costs are around 1200 USD per person (round trip) depending on from where they are departing in the USA and when. We know that our program is unique and different (and I think that you may have noticed this as well), so families would consider it from all aspects not only the financial one. How would you quantify in USD the value of helping a kid that was lost....I am sure that it is way more than 25K USD...
      have a good weekend
      Shaul
      How would you describe Darckenu Israel, Shaul, to differentiate it from the other Israeli program Oscar just brought to our attention, namely, Lotan's Way? I imagine the respective costs are significantly different. Presumably, the therapeutic component should reflect that?
      Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
      Post by: seamus on January 27, 2011, 02:08:31 PM
      Isreal gets between 6-8 million dollars in forign aid a day from this country. Parents ,do your selves a favor, if you are gonna put your kid thru all this ,keep it in country so at least you have legal recourse.wtf. :bs:
      Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
      Post by: Abir on February 05, 2011, 04:58:23 AM
      Hi Ursus,
      Sorry for the late response, as to your questions:
      1. Lotan (their full name is "Derech Lotan") is a very serious and legitimate Israeli non profit organization. The main difference between them and us is that they normally run short wilderness programs (a week or so) for israeli school kids not necessarily teens at risk.
      As you know our program is much longer (38 days) and offered to teenagers at risk mainly in the US and Canada.
      2. As to the cost mentioned in an earlier post and the suggestion to "leave the money in the US" I can say that I am sure that in the US there are also good programs. Our program is very good and different and I am sure that parents and kids can tell the difference and hopefully choose us.
      Have a good weekend,
      Shaul
      Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
      Post by: seamus on February 05, 2011, 06:03:55 AM
      What can I do about getting some of the 6 to 8 million dollars back that my brain dead government gives your country every day? Why are the zionists in your country so reminiscint of nazis? and mostly why do the non zionist isrealis tolerate such horse shit? Inquiring minds want to know. :timeout:
      Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
      Post by: Truckin' on February 07, 2011, 12:24:15 PM
      What hateful and odious remarks, seamus! Sounds like this person is trying to exchange information, and you have to go all anti-Israeli on him. Shame on you!
      Title: how to take a land war personally
      Post by: try another castle on February 14, 2011, 03:00:02 AM
      Quote from: "Truckin'"
      What hateful and odious remarks, seamus! Sounds like this person is trying to exchange information, and you have to go all anti-Israeli on him. Shame on you!

      Unfortunately, that is the pervasive misconception. The "Palestinians" are the poor, downtrodden, and the Israelis are the brutal, faceless oppressors who do not deserve to have a country. Most of these beliefs have been perpetuated by the media...

      ...strange that people seem to think the Jews control said media.

      I wonder how many of the throngs of uninformed have actually been to Israel, or read something about it outside of wikipedia. I have not been myself, but I am eager to take R there for our honeymoon. Everyone in my family says that it is incredible.

      The Israelis created an oasis out of a shitty region, which was populated by mostly shitty, hateful people. (Who all attacked simultaneously the minute the state was formed. Somehow, this is apparently Israel's fault.) It also bears mentioning that you actually need to posses a separate passport booklet for the Israel stamp, because it is far too risky to have it in your regular booklet when traveling abroad. Imagine, getting killed over a stamp. Obviously, the killers are the rational ones, and those who have ever visited Israel had it coming to them, right?  ::)

      Apparently, the concept of being a Zionist is now considered to be something disgraceful. (I believe it was the muslims and the neo-nazis who spearheaded that campaign.) I, however, feel no disgrace when I state that Israel has a right to exist, and I never will. If someone were to sneer at me and call me a Zionist, they would merely be stating a fact.

      The world would lose something truly special were Israel to fall to the terrorists.  Then it would be just like every other shithole in that region. Dont we have enough of those?

      Quote
      I am Israel (http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4bM2QG3r-I)

      I am Israel-- I was born millennia before I was renamed Palestine by the conquering Romans, before Muhammad took his first breath, and before the U.N. decided to split me in half and turn my Eastern lands into Jordan. My people, the Jews, maintained communities here for three thousand years— that is until the Arabs decided to massacre those Jews without reason in 1920 and 1929. Hundreds of civilians were murdered, most of them women and children. Meanwhile, their brother Arab states massacred and exiled 1 million Arabic Jews from their lands-- erasing their history.

      I am Israel-- I have been attacked four times by Arab armies since I declared independence in 1948. I told the Arabs who lived on my land that they were welcome to stay, but they were told by the neighboring states to leave temporarily while the Jews were "taken care of". I have been offering a message of peace since the day I was born, but my enemies answered only in bullets. I am a survivor--I won every war. Realizing they could not defeat me with arms, my enemies have turned to lies.

      I am Israel-- Time and time again my name is smeared. Though each of these lies is eventually disproven, my enemies continue to claim I am committing genocide. Is giving educational opportunities to Palestinian Arabs "genocide"? 20% of the students in Haifa University are Arabs. If I am an aggressor who exiled all the Arabs in 1948, why are 20% of my citizens Arabs with full rights? Where did they magically appear from? Why did I give up the entire Sinai and the Gaza strip, uprooting my own people from their homes, only for the hope of peace?

      I am Israel-- In combat, I risk the lives of my teenage sons and daughters in order to minimize civilian Palestinian casualties. I make every attempt to target only fighters, often putting my own soldiers in harms way. In wartime, I drop leaflets on areas to be attacked, warning civilians to evacuate. Has any other army in the history of mankind done this for its enemy? I waited 8 years to stop Hamas from its daily rocket attacks on my kindergardens and my hospitals. I am patient, but my patience is not infinite.

      I am Israel-- I have created Intel and cell phone technology, medicine for devastating diseases, and I lead the world in scientific publications per capita. I send humanitarian missions to developing countries, including Muslim countries. I have absorbed hundreds of Muslim refugees who faced genocide in Darfur-- refugees no Muslim state would take.

      I am Israel-- I am one of the smallest countries in the world, and probably the most stubborn—I refuse to give up hope for peace. My friends support me not because of any lobby, but because they see the truth-- I am the heart of the Middle East, and the hope for its future. My prophet said, "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation," and I will try, and try, and TRY until those words are true.

      Because I am Israel.
      Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
      Post by: Dethgurl on February 14, 2011, 08:38:36 AM
      Great Video...although I prefer this version : http://http://youtu.be/ZprVPKi-W6s
       :notworthy:
      Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
      Post by: Truckin' on February 15, 2011, 04:03:56 PM
      Was has this thread devolved into a discussion about the pros and cons of Israelis and Zionists? The guy who started the thread was just informing about his wilderness program. I'm guessing he won't want to visit this forum again !
      Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
      Post by: try another castle on February 15, 2011, 11:30:41 PM
      Quote from: "Truckin'"
      Was has this thread devolved into a discussion about the pros and cons of Israelis and Zionists? The guy who started the thread was just informing about his wilderness program. I'm guessing he won't want to visit this forum again !


      lol. Actually, I posted this in the wrong thread. I meant to put it in "Israel and the weather". I was reading both of them, read seamus' response here, and thought I was still in that one.


      This is what happens when I try to surf the web on a work night. zzzzzzz too tired.

      I would move it, but it wouldn't make any sense there, either, since I responded to something written in here.


      Anyway, don't mind me. It was an accidental high-jacking. Sry.
      Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
      Post by: Ursus on February 16, 2011, 10:28:09 AM
      Quote from: "Truckin'"
      Was has this thread devolved into a discussion about the pros and cons of Israelis and Zionists? The guy who started the thread was just informing about his wilderness program. I'm guessing he won't want to visit this forum again !
      Ahhh... perhaps this is a minor point, but... I believe you suffer a misperception. This thread was started (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=31636#p386072) by Oscar.

      Shaul Abir, one of the founders of Darckenu Israel, did not make his fornits debut (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=31636&p=387187#p387187) 'till well into the third page.



      Jes sayin' ...  ;)
      Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
      Post by: Ursus on February 16, 2011, 11:55:15 AM
      Quote from: "Abir"
      Lotan (their full name is "Derech Lotan") is a very serious and legitimate Israeli non profit organization. The main difference between them and us is that they normally run short wilderness programs (a week or so) for israeli school kids not necessarily teens at risk.
      Herein implied is a profound difference in "therapeutic" approach, dontcha think?

      Quote from: "Abir"
      As you know our program is much longer (38 days) and offered to teenagers at risk mainly in the US and Canada.
      I am curious as to why your targeted market is primarily the United States and Canada... and not your local Israeli "troubled youth." From your perspective, do you think that there's that much more market potential in the North American continent?
      Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
      Post by: Abir on February 17, 2011, 01:46:36 AM
      Hi all,
      I will try to answer your doubts:
      1. There are four main points that we differ from "Lotan Way":
          a. The length of our program, ours is 38 days, Lotan usually runs short programs ( a week or so)
          b. The target population, we target teens from north america, Lotan focuses mainly on the Israeli kids
          c. Lotan is a Non profit Organization "living" mainly from contributions and donations. We are a private organization. We have
             decided that we do not want to depend on donations.
          d. We offer wilderness PROGRAMS and not THERAPY (although we have clinical psychologists on our staff) because our overall concept
             is diffrent (as presented in our site)

      Have a good weeekend.
      Shaul
      Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
      Post by: Ursus on February 17, 2011, 10:49:56 AM
      Quote from: "Abir"
      The target population, we target teens from north america, Lotan focuses mainly on the Israeli kids
      Yes, but... with all due respect, this doesn't answer my question; namely, from my previous post:
      Quote from: "Ursus"
      Quote from: "Abir"
      As you know our program is much longer (38 days) and offered to teenagers at risk mainly in the US and Canada.
      I am curious as to why your targeted market is primarily the United States and Canada... and not your local Israeli "troubled youth." From your perspective, do you think that there's that much more market potential in the North American continent?
      [/list]
      Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
      Post by: Ursus on February 17, 2011, 10:57:30 AM
      Quote from: "Abir"
      We offer wilderness PROGRAMS and not THERAPY (although we have clinical psychologists on our staff)
      If you don't offer, or practice, "therapy" ... why do you have psychologists on staff? From the sound of it, they're not just there on a consulting basis. They're included among the participating staff for each of your wilderness "walks," am I correct?
      Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
      Post by: Truckin' on February 18, 2011, 03:05:50 PM
      My bad, Ursus, but like you said, it is a minor point... :)
      Title: on marketing startegies: selling "not therapy" as "therapy"
      Post by: Ursus on February 18, 2011, 10:43:06 PM
      Quote from: "Abir"
      We offer wilderness PROGRAMS and not THERAPY (although we have clinical psychologists on our staff)
      Continuing a bit more along this same line of discussion, I find it most curious that — despite your above claim that you do not provide therapy — someone in your organization appears to have seen fit to tack on a link (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wilderness_therapy&action=historysubmit&diff=395314076&oldid=393080108) to Darckenau Israel in a Wikipedia article on Wilderness THERAPY (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilderness_therapy) last November 7th.*

      So... which is it? "Therapy?" Or "NOT therapy?"

      Moreover, even though this wiki article supposedly has nothing to do with any specific wilderness program in particular, just with the general concept of wilderness "therapy" and a brief history ... SOMEhow, SOMEone apparently believes that Darkenau Israel epitomizes the genre.

      This despite never having actually practiced the art, as the commercially recognized entity of "Darckenau Israel," with behaviorally challenged kids in tow. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

      Speaking of which, aren't we coming up to the launch date for this ship's maiden voyage?



      ----------------------------
      * Interesting marketing strategy. Not sure how well it reflects on your organization though, as many, if not most, folk tend to view this type of insertion as an unwarranted piece of self-promotion or gratuitous advertising. Namely, S-P-A-M.
      Title: questions still remaining to be answered
      Post by: Ursus on February 21, 2011, 11:06:13 AM
      Although I had assumed that Shaul was quite entrenched in the actual launch of Darkenau Israel's first ever wilderness "walk," it turns out that said departure date has apparently been postponed to March 10th (previously scheduled for Feb.19th, if I recall correctly, although I could be wrong). See also: Darckenu Israel - Trails' schedules (http://http://darckenu.com/content.aspx?id=341).

      So... I'm hoping  that he'll be able to check back and answer some still unanswered questions, namely:

      Title: Our Program - Program at a glance
      Post by: Ursus on February 24, 2011, 02:23:29 PM
      In the interim, here's some material from the "Our Program" section of Darckenu-Israel's website, emphases as per the original...

      It's interesting that Darckenu Israel refers to their potential program clients as "teenaged girls and boys under duress" ... prior to having signed on, but as "young adults" once they've been sent to the program and are presumed to be actively participating.

      -------------- • -------------- • --------------

      Program at a glance (http://http://www.darckenu-israel.com/content.aspx?id=331)
       
      Darckenu Israel is a unique Israeli program lasting 38 days. The program is specifically designed for teenaged girls and boys under duress, and for their parents. (Is the program suitable for us? (http://http://www.darckenu-israel.com/content.aspx?id=324))

      Participating families are normally ones experiencing severe interpersonal challenges and communication gaps.

      The program integrates significant physical and mental challenges in the form of walking and spending time in a desert setting, while keeping daily routines and completing various personal and team assignments. These assignments require certain survival capabilities (gained in the context of the program) and interpersonal capacity.
       
      The young adults who walk the Darckenu Israel trail face a series of challenges throughout their journey, and are guided to success with our consistent instruction and presence.

      We teach, comfort, and motivate them to explore their inner strength and develop sufficient confidence in their abilities. In the process, we gently steer them to discover their own abilities to make valuable choices and reinforce their self image.
       
      Parents are categorically an integrated part of this process.
       
      The program's targets, with regard to the parents, focus on providing them with insights and tools for significant parenting, through the use of effective communication with their children.

      The program specifically guides parents to provide children with supporting messages while defining the necessary boundaries and rules. The combination of both these components will ultimately serve as 'anchor' and 'foundation' for the youth, and as infrastructure for better and rewarding relationships between parents and children.

      Parents participate in various workshops at the end of the program. (see Parents' Program (http://http://www.darckenu-israel.com/content.aspx?id=334))

      By definition, the program allows the youth and their parents to connect with their respective cultural roots, and with the 'Israeli spirit', and transform their experiences in the 'bosom of nature' – to a renewed experience in the 'bosom of their family'.


      2010 © Darckenu Israel
      Title: Is the program suitable for my family?
      Post by: Ursus on February 24, 2011, 05:39:51 PM
      Expanding out one of the links in the above post (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=31636&p=398415#p398410); emphases as per the original...

      No surprises here. Darckenu Israel will take basically any kid that can be safely stuck on a plane.

      -------------- • -------------- • --------------

      Is the program suitable for my family? (http://http://www.darckenu-israel.com/content.aspx?id=324)
       
      You may be asking yourself whether Darckenu Israel is the right program for you, your child, and your family; whether the principles and philosophy that constitute our wilderness program will indeed prove helpful in addressing your particular challenge.
       
      Let us answer your concerns by telling you who we see will benefit the most by participating in Darckenu Israel's program:
       
      Parents of children facing the type of difficulties mentioned below, and are ready to assume significant parental responsibility in the context of the Darckenu Israel program (as detailed in 'Parents' Program (http://http://www.darckenu-israel.com/content.aspx?id=334)' section on this site), alongside their kids.

      Adolescents between the ages of 14-18 who are struggling with a variety of behavioral problems, learning disabilities, occasional substance abuse, problems in school, and difficulties with their key relationships.[/list]
       
       
      A detailed list of specific issues and challenges that may be relevant to you is included below, for your evaluation and assessment:
       
      Low self esteem
      In many cases low self esteem is the core reason for unacceptable behaviors.
      This may originate from circumstances including:
      • Consistent criticism and dissatisfaction expressed by relevant adults
      • Various learning disabilities and difficulties
      • Social rejection by their peers
      • Physical disabilities
      • Psychological or emotional problems
      • Consistent failures
       
      Conflicts in the family
      • Frequent arguments with parents
      • Refusal to follow parents' rules or values
      • Avoiding any communication with parents
      • Aggressive and rude communication

      Low Frustration Tolerance
      Difficulties related to coping with challenges of everyday life and facing disappointments. Frustration may be expressed in behavioral patterns such as:
      • Impulsive & aggressive conduct
      • Verbal & physical aggression
      • Vandalism (intentional and unintentional)
      • Dropping out of school (overt or covert)
      • Inability to manage relationship with peers
      • Overall lack of motivation
      • Occasional use of illegal substance or alcohol

      Social Problems
      Adolescents who suffer from poor peer relationships, lack of friends or bad or negative influence by friends. Adolescents who experience difficulty reading social cues and who lack age appropriate social skills.
       
      Learning Difficulties
      Teenagers with various learning disabilities and challenges such as Dyslexia, ADHD, ADD, resulting in failure to achieve schooling targets and consequently reinforce the child's low self esteem.
      Children experiencing the conditions above may often be prone to:
      • Lack of motivation to engage school assignments and tasks
      • Impulsive behavior accompanied with verbal or physical aggression
      • Classroom interruptions
      • Demonstrating 'illnesses' so as to avoid school attendance
      • Avoiding consistent school attendance, overtly or covertly, leading to their expulsion from the educational system
       
      Life revolving around the computer and internet
      Young adults consumed by the exclusive 'virtual world' of PC games and internet interactions, avoiding actual contact with their peers and immediate environment.
       
      Difficulties associated with crisis
      Young adults who have experienced crisis situations such as relocation, family economic challenges, parental unemployment, divorce, accidents, physical disability or serious illness in the family, death of a loved one, etc.
       
      Occasional use of illegal substance & alcohol
      Young adults using drugs or alcohol on a random social basis, but not regarded as addicted.
       
      Sexual acting-out
      Age inappropriate relationship, sexual promiscuity.
       
      If you are struggling with the above symptoms, behaviors, and difficulties the Darckenu Israel program may very well be beneficial for your family.


      2010 © Darckenu Israel
      Title: For whom the program may not be suitable?
      Post by: Ursus on February 25, 2011, 11:04:30 PM
      Amazingly enough, Darckenu Israel also has a page detailing the type of kid for whom their program may not be suitable for. Gotta give them credit for that!

      Nevertheless, despite obviously decreasing Darckenu's potential liability load by issuing disclaimers in advance, if your kid is not already locked up in juvie or in a lockdown RTC, and you can afford all those plane tickets to Israel, chances are he or she will still qualify!

      Emphases as per the original:

      -------------- • -------------- • --------------

      For whom the program may not be suitable? (http://http://www.darckenu-israel.com/content.aspx?id=326)

      The Darckenu Israel program may not be suitable for young adults with complex problems and conditions that may put them at risk. Therefore, teenagers with the following problems and conditions will not be able to participate in our program:
       
      • Active suicide attempts
      • Psychotic symptoms
      • Acute/Chronic violence outside the home
      • History of sexual assaults
      • Alcohol and/or drugs and other substance addiction
      • Psychiatric hospitalization
      • Criminal record
       
      The program of routine wilderness missions is not suitable for young adults with medical conditions that may require special medical services such as:
      • Diabetes (Insulin-Dependent)
      • Allergies that may lead to anaphylactic shock
      • Significant obesity
      • Cardiac conditions or other organ dysfunctions that may lead to the need for emergency care
      • Serious eating disorders (Bulimia, Anorexia, etc.)
       
       
      Darckenu Israel cannot accept teenagers whose parents are unable to actively participate in the program as described in this site in Parents' Program.

      Please contact us with any question so that we can assess and explore the potential value of this program to your child and family.


      2010 © Darckenu Israel
      Title: Our Program - Program objectives
      Post by: Ursus on February 27, 2011, 02:53:07 PM
      Some more from the 'Our Program' section; again: emphases as per the original...

      This would appear to be the only pic I've come across thus far, showing Shaul without his sunglasses on.

      -------------- • -------------- • --------------

      (http://http://www.darckenu-israel.com/imagesUploaded/Darkenu/s110_Content332_129360958664531250.jpg)

      Program objectives (http://http://www.darckenu-israel.com/content.aspx?id=332)
       
      The Darckenu Israel program enables the teenage participants to:

      -> Believe in themselves and their ability to overcome difficult challenges (mental and physical), far beyond their achievements to date.

      -> Reinforce their self image and confidence.
       
      -> Regard themselves as valuable members of a special group going through a very demanding & challenging set of experiences (in the context of the program they are part of in Israel).
       
      -> Possess 'tools' for making the kind of personal choices that will promote them and act on these choices effectively.
       
      -> Communicate effectively with their parents, family members, and other significant adults.
       
      -> Start anew with regard to relationships and activities with which they had previous difficulties, in Israel, in an unfamiliar environment, that is both challenging and supportive.
       
      -> Reinforce their connection to the state of Israel, its history, heritage and Jewish tradition.
       
      -> Explore opportunities for continuation programs in Israel following Darckenu Israel program's conclusion.[/list]

      The Darckenu Israel program enables participating parents to:

      -> Possess a new set of 'tools' for effective parenting.
       
      -> Define and deploy an alternative communication approach with their children, designed to promote positive family interaction and provide a supportive and close environment at home.
       
      -> Reclaim their role as 'anchors of stability' in their children's lives.[/list]
       

      2010 © Darckenu Israel
      Title: Our Program - Teenager's program
      Post by: Ursus on March 21, 2011, 12:24:50 AM
      We must be in full-swing of the first Darckenu Israel "walk," presuming that it commenced on March 10th as planned, eh?

      Here's a more detailed description of what participants may currently be experiencing:

      -------------- • -------------- • --------------

      Teenager's program (http://http://www.darckenu-israel.com/content.aspx?id=333)
       
      The teens walk in the Israeli Negev desert from day 1 to day 32.
      On day 33 they move north to the Emek Yizrael region where they prepare for the reunion with their parents.
      On day 35 the teens are reunited with their parents and spend one night camping together.
      Days 36-38 are assigned for a shared "coming home" workshop with their parents in a kibbutz with a real shower...

      The program's agenda for the teenagers has four stages. Each stage addresses personal and group goals. The advancement from one stage to the next depends on each participant's individual progress

      --------------

      (http://http://www.darckenu-israel.com/ImagesFck/Darkenu/image/tzabar_new.png)
      Stage 1 - Tzabar

      The Tzabar (Sabres, or Cactus) fruit is often considered the symbolic representation of the typical Israeli: prickly on the outside, and sweet and nourishing on the inside.
      Trying to uncover the essence of the fruit behind the protective shield nature has given it might hurt. However, the effort is well rewarded, as the Tzabar fruit is incredibly sweet and refreshing.


      At stage 1, the Tzabar stage, each participant is assigned a personal guide. The teen will be facing considerable physical challenges during stage 1: hiking in a very demanding terrain, unfamiliar weather conditions, sleeping outdoors, giving up 'toxins' they may be dependent upon, relying on basic survival techniques, making fires, preparing food while cooking outdoors, maintaining personal hygiene in nature, preparing camping facilities for overnight camping and more.
      At this stage participants learn what is expected of them, the group agenda, rules and regulations for negotiating the desert they are walking in, accepted norms and boundaries.

      (http://http://www.darckenu-israel.com/ImagesFck/Darkenu/image/eshel.png)
      Stage 2 - Eshel

      The Eshel tree (Tamarisk) is typified by its ability to survive in severe desert conditions. It requires very little water. It can face strong winds, extreme heat as well as cold temperature, which are typical for this region. In some seasons this resistant specimen even displays a lovely pink flowery coat.

      During Stage 2 the young participants learn to negotiate their 'new world'. They practice the survival techniques they have been taught and develop individual creativity in cooking and handcraft using available components found in their immediate surroundings.
      They begin to function in the context of their group and as a team, share tasks and team rituals, in order to be exposed to the practical outcomes of the choices they
      make.
      All the while, as they are 'walking their choices' in the desert trail charted by their trail guides, they learn to listen to and communicate with their peers effectively and give and receive feedback. This stage is structured to provide participants with the practical means with which they should take responsibility. It also includes the important aspect of self emotional-management by participants.

      (http://http://www.darckenu-israel.com/ImagesFck/Darkenu/image/alon.png)
      Stage 3 - Alon

      The Alon (Oak) tree is a typical and age-old Israeli species. Alon trees in Israel, estimated to be of several hundred years old, can be found throughout the country, but chiefly in the northern region.
      The Alon tree is extremely robust and provides shade area under its extensive vegetation. It blooms in the spring and its fruit is food for various birds and small animals.

       
      The Alon stage is defined by adjustment and 'normalization'. Living outdoors, walking, preparing food and going through a variety of daily routines have by now become easier, normal and quiet enjoyable.  
      The program's emphasis now shifts to upgrading and perfecting participants' communications skills:
      • Giving, receiving and processing feedback
      • Solving conflicts
      • Giving and receiving assistance from peers
      • Acceptance and containing others
      • Anger and frustration management
       
      With the trail guides' navigation, participants learn to bridge between the experiences they are having during the program with the conflicts and issues from 'back home'. Past decisions or choices that have proven to be wrong or counter-productive are discussed in light of the insights gained during the experiences in the desert.
       
      (http://http://www.darckenu-israel.com/ImagesFck/Darkenu/image/rimon.png)
      Stage 4 - Rimon

      The Rimon tree (Pomegranate) is one of the Seven Sacred Species in Jewish tradition. Rimon symbolizes – in both Judaism as well as other faiths – multiplicity, wealth, fertility, beauty and wisdom. Due to its visual attractiveness the Rimon fruit has been chosen to beautify architectural structures, coins and fashion items, and is repeated in the names of many habitats and towns in Israel and elsewhere. The deep-red fruit contains hundreds of juicy pellets treasured for their therapeutic qualities.
       
      The Rimon stage takes the participants to the northern part of Israel, to a setting vastly different than the desert environment.  
      Participants now have the opportunity to view their wilderness experience in perspective and evaluate personal areas in which they have grown and challenges they may feel better equipped to deal with.
      The focus is for each participant to form a 'bird's eye view' of the issues troubling them, and to use the insights gained during the Tzabar, Eshel and Alon stages in their after-program life.
      Participants at this stage acquire and practice respective 'tools' to be used as they prepare to go back home. They discover practical means for putting into practice the knowledge gained to change former behavioral patterns.
      In this context, we review with them all relevant expectations, concerns, dreams and desires.
      The Rimon Stage includes preparation for reuniting the teens with their parents. Parents are scheduled to rejoin their children to spend 24 hours in the field at a camp site each teenager has prepared for his parents.
      Participating parents get to see and experience their children's new routines and behavior while sharing and enjoying their teen's personal achievements and new insights.

      --------------

      Weekend camp

      During the program, the children arrive at a designated weekend camping site for a stay over during the 'Shabbat' (the Jewish rest day).
       
      The idea of the weekend camp incorporates several prioritized elements:


      Living conditions at the weekend camp sites are designed to be a bit more comforting than those experienced by the participants during the week, so as to help them recoup and recharge, physically and mentally.


      2010 © Darckenu Israel
      Title: Our Program - Parents' program
      Post by: Ursus on March 21, 2011, 08:54:58 PM
      And... here is what the parents will have in store for them, coming up just around the corner. This would appear to be structured very much along the lines of a week long LGAT:

      -------------- • -------------- • --------------

      (http://http://www.darckenu-israel.com/imagesUploaded/Darkenu/s110_Content334_129360262387656250.jpg)

      Parents' program (http://http://www.darckenu-israel.com/content.aspx?id=334)
       
      "The program sounds amazing, but what happens when the kids get back home? After all, they will be returning to the same house, same friends and education system! How do we preserve the success and achievements gained during the desert trail experience when they are back to their reality?"
       
      This is one of the frequently asked questions we get from parents, regarding the chance for long term success through the Darckenu Israel program.
      Our answer is categorically straight forward: the 'secret ingredient' in the program's long-term success is the fact that the parents have assumed a high level of commitment in, and involvement with, their children's lives.
       
      This parental commitment is manifested by traveling to Israel at the end of the program, participating in workshops, spending the night outdoors with the teens, remain in consistent and structured contact with us during the month your kids are on trail, write letters to your kids and 'do your homework', so to speak. But don't worry – there are no essays for submission on your part...:)

      --------------
       
      Parents' program details

      The parent's program always starts on a Friday, the 30th day of the Darckenu Israel trail, at a comfortable country inn and concludes on the Saturday night eight days later.

      The Initiation Seminar opens the Friday evening session.
      This 3-day seminar discusses the following topics and issues:
      -> Understanding the uniqueness of adolescence, the difficulties and risks associated with this age and the challenges parents have to face.
      -> Receiving a 'parents tool kit' for meaningful parenting and effective communication with your kids.
      -> Formulating a relevant 'vocabulary' based on the same terminology and idioms your kids will be introduced to in their program. This 'vocabulary' is specifically designed to facilitate a new and better interaction with your kids when you are reunited.

      The Concluding Workshop is a 3–part program:  

      Darckenu Israel.[/list]
      Darckenu Israel journey. You will hear of their experiences and share yours with them, as well.[/list]
      Concluding Workshop.

      During their trail, the children were guided to consolidate their own set of wishes and resolutions, as well as any respective concerns regarding the issue of returning home. This workshop provides a platform for parents and children to define the life after the program's experience.[/list]
      This workshop concludes with a program's final party Saturday afternoon.
       
      Flights home will begin either that night or during the following day.
       
      --------------  

      During the 30 days your kids will be "walking their choices (http://http://www.darckenu-israel.com/content.aspx?id=337)" in the desert, we will maintain weekly communication with you: update you on your kid's progress, send pictures from the trail, discuss any particular difficulties that may have arisen and answer any and all your questions.

      We will ask you to send letters to your child and will forward letters written to you. These letters are usually very important for the process both you and your kids will be going through in the context of the program.
      In addition we will send you guiding materials to help you prepare assignments you will use during the Concluding Workshop as described above.


      2010 © Darckenu Israel
      Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
      Post by: Dethgurl on April 19, 2011, 09:24:55 AM
      When my brothers and I got out of hand my Mother would threaten to send us to live on a Kibbutz. http://http://www.kibbutz.org.il/eng/
      It looks like "somebody" saw a funding stream asset (The American Teenager) and started a program. :trophy:
      Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
      Post by: T.O. on April 28, 2012, 10:24:49 PM
      Wonder if the staff are former IDF...
      Title: Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
      Post by: T.O. on April 28, 2012, 10:52:24 PM
      Quote from: "Abir"
      Hi Ursus,
      Sorry for the late response, as to your questions:
      1. Lotan (their full name is "Derech Lotan") is a very serious and legitimate Israeli non profit organization. The main difference between them and us is that they normally run short wilderness programs (a week or so) for israeli school kids not necessarily teens at risk.
      As you know our program is much longer (38 days) and offered to teenagers at risk mainly in the US and Canada.
      2. As to the cost mentioned in an earlier post and the suggestion to "leave the money in the US" I can say that I am sure that in the US there are also good programs. Our program is very good and different and I am sure that parents and kids can tell the difference and hopefully choose us.
      Have a good weekend,
      Shaul


      Dear Abir, a couple of questions: I will not assume that your program is guilty of the kinds of behaviors or failures that others on this site are (I have yet to see student testimonials). I will say that, if your program is actually NOT like the others here, it makes me very happy: I was forced to attend a program where the staff were so ignorant of Passover that they thought I had an eating disorder and put me under food watch. And so that you understand that my questions are not intended to be hostile, I should say that I have a background in 19th and 20th century Jewish thought: I take it very seriously the relationship between Judaism, Jewish heritage, and political Zionism.  So:

      What do you think is the relationship between a program of this type and the early 20th century Zionist convictions that the various troubles of the Jews could only be resolved through the establishment of and connection to a Land? [i.e., that the Jews of Europe had been 'emasculated,' and that the only thing that could regenerate their manhood was a sovereign land]. (I'd be interested to know if you have any students who are NOT Jewish, not because it means anything in particular, but just as a point of interest).

      --In a related point, you say that you have a 'Shabbos camp,' which, in all honesty, makes me very happy. My question is this: to what extent does your program include an actual religious component? Do you light candles and do havdalah? Is their a religious education component, or is the focus on Jewishness as a unifying cultural/ethnic bond rather than a religious one?

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