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Messages - Karass

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1
The Troubled Teen Industry / Re: These Nazi programs still exist?
« on: June 16, 2011, 06:07:54 AM »
Thanks Che. Yeah, everyone is doing a lot better -- no thanks to that expensive "camping trip" he took a few years back.

2
The Troubled Teen Industry / These Nazi programs still exist?
« on: June 05, 2011, 12:28:47 AM »
Sorry for my naivete, it's been a few years since I frequented this forum. I'm stunned that all of these Nazi brainwashing and illegal kidnapping programs haven't been shut down already. Are there really kids being handcuffed and shipped off to gulags in the middle of the night? In the USA? Say it isn't so!

3
The girl I mentioned in the OP is 17, her b/f is at least 19, maybe 20 -- either way, he's an adult and technically she's a minor. I asked the dad why they don't have a restraining order yet. Maybe they will by next week. I can only guess why the cops didn't arrest him when he beat her up in plain sight in front of a neighbor's house, who then called the cops. I guess if cops don't witness a crime, and the girl says everything's fine, then no reason to make an arrest.

My personal opinion is that HE is the one that should be removed from the situation, not her. Get a R.O., get a cellphone video of him kicking the crap out of her, whatever...get some evidence and have him thrown in jail. At least that's what I told her dad. Much as I hate cops, I hate assholes even more...

4
Thanks Femanon. I doubt I could get anywhere trying to talk to this young woman myself. I've known her for years -- but now I would just come across as another wicked parent who's trying to interfere with her love life and trying to tell her what to do...and being a friend of her dad's is a double strike against me. But I'll advise her dad to read your post and ask her if she'd be interested in a PM chat with someone who's been there, done that. If she would listen to a credible source who could help her understand that she doesn't deserve this kind of treatment, that he's not going to change, then maybe she will start thinking. Changing what's going through her head isn't going to change her heart, but maybe it's a start. I also had a similar thought as you -- when she meets a decent guy who treats her right, she'll quickly lose interest in this loser. Hopefully she doesn't have to pay too high a price to make that discovery.

Guest, you're right, I'm only hearing her dad's side of the story. On the other hand, when he told me how the neighbors down the street called the cops a few nights ago after witnessing a violent altercation out on the sidewalk, I tend to think he's not exaggerating all that much.

5
The Troubled Teen Industry / No to programs, but then what do you do?
« on: June 18, 2009, 01:48:31 AM »
Forniscators, it's been a long time since I cruised these boards. I have a friend in a difficult spot and want to hear what options you think make sense for his family and his daughter. When he mentioned he was considering a program, I steered him over here and clued him in to Maia and her writings. Ok, so now the EdCons won't con him and everyone here can cheer that another kid was spared from the program experience.

But just saying no to programs doesn't make the underlying problems go away. His daughter is madly in love with an abuser who has already physically assaulted her and threatened to kill her and then himself. I don't pretend to understand why a woman would willfully keep going back into a harmful relationship with such a loser...but she does. Add to that the expected fireworks due to concerned parents trying to steer her clear of harm's way, and you have a very twisted Romeo & Juliet situation affecting a family (younger kids at home too) that is barely managing to get through each angry & crazy day.

Ideas?

Local outpatient therapy? Not likely, with an unwilling 'patient' who doesn't think there's a problem that needs to be worked on.
Emancipation? She can't support herself, and mom & dad aren't likely to be too thrilled at the idea that psycho-killer bf will have even more access to her if she's out on her own. Unlikely they would want to pay her bills to enable that situation.
Restraining order against the bf?
Battered women's counselors?
Just let her keep going on with this guy and hope she sees the light before he seriously injures or kills her?

It's not enough to say programs are bad, and programs only make things worse. That's true, but some people do still need help. What do we say to them?

6
Micheal, you are da man! Nice to see the good guys win one.

7
The Troubled Teen Industry / Re: The issue from a parents perspective
« on: October 02, 2008, 06:53:52 AM »
Hello Fornits, and sorry I've been away for so long. Had to take care of some things, like life, parenthood, and so on.

Nice to see someone quoting what I wrote a year and half ago. I still stand by most of it, but I'm not so convinced anymore about the importance of "local resources," or "community based treatment." I have come to believe that treatment of any sort is mostly bullshit, even when conducted by truly kind-hearted licensed professionals. I had a teen who is now well into adulthood, who had many of the usual problems that lure parents into "treatment" and sometimes into "programs." If his issues had just been the kind of teenage bullshit most of us middle-agers did -- drugs, sex, defiance of authority, minor vandalism and skirmishes with law enforcement, refusing to follow any organized religion, and so on -- then I could deal and I could relate. Been there done that. But when your kid seems truly fucked up in the head, in ways you can't relate to -- in ways that make you terrified for their very survival -- you feel like you need to do SOMETHING -- get some professional help, before he kills himself of does some permanent damage.

But that "professional help", even in the best, most caring of circumstances, usually involves powerful mind-altering drugs, and not the fun kind, but the kind that can keep you messed up long-term. The kind that have side effects. The kind that some shrinks like to experiment with in "off label" dosages. But desperate parents who have tried "professional help" sometimes decide, after it doesn't help, that maybe something really radical is called for. Thus the allure of programs. It's not even an "allure" -- it's more like the last act of desperation, like a cancer patient who gets all the best treatment but continues to get worse, to the point where they want to try any snake oil promise of a cure, no matter how bullshit it sounds.

So over time he has weaned himself off of all that chemical shit, and life is not always (or usually) nice and rosy -- some days just plain suck and are terrible for him and everyone around him. But other days are hopeful and include a few smiles and laughs.

The most important medicine and the most important "therapy" is just LOVE. That's it. It might not cure every mental illness, but it beats the shit out of anything that comes in a pill or that comes in words spoken by a stranger while you sit on the couch and tell them how you feel.

On Fornits, we try to educate people about the evils of programs and convince parents not to fall for the snake oil sales pitch. But I think the problem starts with that first encounter with "behavioral health professionals" -- the mainstream healthcare system. In most cases, that system is just as worthless as programs, even though it seems unabusive or less abusive.

The best thing we can do for our "troubled" kids is to love them, and teach them to beware of authority, and to watch out for the Man, and to be independent free-thinkers. And to keep a stash of cash on hand in case lawyers are required.

8
The Troubled Teen Industry / The issue from a parents perspective
« on: October 29, 2007, 11:53:33 AM »
TSW, please explain what "be a fucking parent" means and how "grow some balls" is any different than the tough love philosophy they taught you at Three Springs.

Yes, some of us want local services and local support, even if we aren't exactly sure what that means or what it would look like -- because what we have now sucks. Kids get kicked out of school these days for almost nothing. Kids get drugged up by shrinks for having the slightest bit of feelings or anger or frustration. Kids get arrested for doing the same things their parents got away with decades ago. A lot of so-called professionals even recommend residential programs for kids with 'problems' -- meaning kids who don't fit society's definition of normal.

Society has declared war on wayward youth, and sometimes parents could use a little help trying to navigate through the battlefield. Kids today aren't allowed to just grow up and grow out of it the way their parents' generation was allowed to. In addition to being teachers, role models, disciplinarians, care-givers, providers and all the other things a parent needs to be, sometimes one of our most important jobs is to be advocates for our own children -- because nobody else cares about them like we do, and sometimes the system would rather throw them away than lend a hand.

Some kids really do wish things in their lives were better. That doesn't mean they want to be head shrunk until they're convinced they're nuts, and it doesn't mean they want to get sent away. Sometimes it just means they wish things didn't suck so bad, that they were treated with some respect and that they had something better to look forward to -- a future with a little less oppression and a little more tolerance. And sometimes parents can be a lot less oppressive and a lot more tolerant than the big bad world.

9
The Troubled Teen Industry / The issue from a parents perspective
« on: October 29, 2007, 06:27:15 AM »
Quote from: ""hanzomon4""
What part of this issue is most important to you? The abuse, lack of options, misleading advertisement? Do you put much stake in what survivors say about what they witnessed or experienced in programs? What part of the movement to end abuse in programs do you feel advocates are not addressing? What do you feel is a good program or what qualities do you think makes a program good or bad?


All of that is important -- abuse, lack of options, deception -- and yes I put a lot of stock in what survivors say they have experienced. Like the old saying 'where there's smoke there's fire' -- there have been way too many kids killed, abused and psychologically harmed for any sensible person to say the complaints are due to a few disgruntled individuals.

Any intelligent parent that has done a little bit of web research should draw the conclusion that there are a lot of con artists in this industry, and that overall, this 'teen help' business is really foul. But that doesn't mean they stop looking for help if they have a child who really needs help and has not been getting it from local resources. It is these well-meaning parents -- the ones who truly want the best for their kids -- who are most easily seduced by an ed con or someone else who comes along promising a 'good program' -- something that promises real therapy, a real education, a healthy environment and some wholesome fun activities. Maybe such programs exist, maybe they don't. But there is no question that thousands of parents with 'troubled teens' are looking for exactly that, after everything else they've tried seems to have gone nowhere.

The part of the movement against institutionalized child abuse that advocates are not addressing nearly enough is the lack of local resources and options. Yes, every city of any size has it's share of psychologists, social workers, psychiatrists, drug abuse counselors, etc. Most parents try several of these before they even think about something as extreme as a residential program. But these local resources are often ineffective in offering much help. Most psychiatrists are all about putting kids on powerful drugs, and many psychologists are too easily bullshitted by kids who are just going through the motions because their parents expect them to 'give therapy a try.

Some kids might need therapy, but every kid needs much more than that -- they need direction, a sense of purpose, a feeling of self-worth, they need healthy relationships with friends and family, they need fun, love, worthwhile things to do with their time, and lots of other things. They need all those same things that we adults need, but some kids seem to have a tough time finding them or even accepting them when they're simply given to them.

It's easy to blame parents for 'not being a parent,' and it's so easy for others to judge when they haven't walked in a parent's shoes. Parenting is the toughest job there is, and what works well for one kid doesn't always work for another -- even in the same family. Programs don't offer solutions, but neither do many other people. We're all out here on our own trying to figure this out step by step. We don't have all the answers and sometimes our kids throw us curve ball after curve ball, to the point where we sometimes feel completely incompetent and helpless to do anything right.

We can't make our kids stop their attempts to destroy their lives, but since we love them we can still express our concerns and try to persuade them to get help and to make better decisions. We sure could use a little bit of support, especially someone or something or someplace in our own communities.

I sometimes laugh at the way 'insanedeadorinjail' is discussed here as if it's complete bullshit. Yes, programs feed on parents' fears and use this as part of the sales process. And the anti-program criticism is valid -- most kids don't die or go insane or end up in jail. But that's little comfort to a parent of a kid who has tried to commit suicide or been to the ER for a drug overdose, or who has a history of mental health problems or who has had multiple run-ins with the law. Or worse, a parent of a kid who has experienced all of the above. Again, programs don't have any answers, but the really sad and frustrating thing is...neither does anybody else.

10
If the link isn't working, you can find a torrent file and get the full video at:

http://www.mininova.org/tor/934543

File size is 276 MB

11
PANAMA CITY, Fla. - The father of a 14-year-old who died at a boot camp was ordered out of the courtroom Wednesday after a judge accused him of making noises throughout the trial of seven guards and a nurse accused of killing his son.

Excerpted from:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21226450/

"Anderson said he did not make any noises in court and blamed the disruption on a text message he said defense attorneys sent to someone seated near him."

Martin Lee Anderson's mom had earlier left the courtroom in tears, after the videotape of her son's attack was shown.

12
The Troubled Teen Industry / Holding parents accountable
« on: October 09, 2007, 01:38:40 PM »
Thankfully, WWASPS is on the defensive and even its owners don't think it will be around too much longer. Every program parent I have met online on different forums and in real life were not interested in a WWASPS-type program, or in punishment or abuse -- they were interested in getting real help, real therapy for their kids. That doesn't excuse lack of due diligence in researching treatment options, or in sending a kid off to an out of state residential facility without visiting it. The main thing is their motivations were fear and concern, not anger and revenge.

TSW, I think you might be a little out of touch with modern day program finances. The programs that are marketed to parents as 'good' programs are in the $10-$12k per month range. As Buzzkill pointed out, good luck getting any health insurance company to pay for any of that. I don't know about school IEPs, but I suspect that school district officials don't simply rubber-stamp expenses of that magnitude without a lot of questions, second opinions, etc. School districts in the U.S. aren't exactly flush with cash these days.

How does a middle class or even upper middle class family fund such an expensive undertaking? I think a common mechanism in the last few years has been home refinancing -- taking a big chunk of that ever increasing home equity out in cash to hand over to the almighty program.

So it occurs to me that the mortgage crisis, tighter credit and declining real estate values is starting to cause a major negative impact on program enrollments -- for the simple reason that most Americans don't have another option to fund it. Not too many parents have easy access to that kind of cash, no matter how convinced they are that a supposedly good program can 'save' their child.

Edit: I just read Pitbull Mom's post above. Apparently I'm the one who's out of touch. My $10-$12k/month figure is on the cheap end of things.

13
Quote from: ""Wandering Waygookin""
I got caught pissing in a garbage can in college when I was drunk. The cop laughed at me and told me to go home.

It is all very subjective and dependent on the officer.


Cops on college campuses ain't what they used to be. If you did that today, you would most likely be arrested for public intoxication and public indecency at a minimum. You would have disciplinary action from the university that would cost you some money and waste your time. That's above and beyond the official court appearance you would have to make and the sentence they would give you -- probation, mandatory counseling or alcohol awareness classes, more fines and maybe some community service.

A huge heap of shit just for being drunk and pissing in a garbage can.

14
Alcohol crimes, yes of course. DUI is the most common -- 1.8 million of those 2.5 million arrests per year. The rest are things like public intoxication or other liquor law violations like underage drinking and open containers in cars.

The drug crime stat I mentioned was just for possession. Other crimes -- you mentioned theft to support a habit -- are not counted as drug arrests, even though some number of thefts or other property crimes are probably related to drug habits.

15
Quote from: ""Oz girl""
is there much of a political movement away from zero tolerance? How would you start one?


I think this is relevant to the topic of a grass-roots movement against programs, because programs thrive on parents' fears, and many of those fears are driven by the zero tolerance mentality, and the harsh and long-lasting consequences of zero tolerance laws and zero tolerance educational and social policies.

How do you start a political movement? Well, it helps if a large % of the population has been affected by misguided policies. I think we're getting close to reaching that critical mass in the U.S. regarding the damaging effects of zero tolerance on millions of lives. At some point, enough Americans will have been affected to where they may collectively agree that things have got to change, and that the solution to society's behavioral problems is not simply to lock everyone up.

The U.S. has only 5% of the world's population, but we have 25% of the world's prisoners -- more than any other nation. China, with more than 4 times as many people, has fewer prisoners than the U.S. At the end of 2006, the Justice Department reported a record 7 million Americans either in prison, on parole or on probation. That's not counting all those who once were in prison, on parole or probation, but have since completed their sentences and are living free. The total number of living Americans with criminal records is easily in the tens of millions -- more than the total population of your country, Oz Girl (and they say that Oz was founded by convicts!).

2 million Americans are arrested every year for drug crimes. Another 2.5 million are arrested every year for alcohol crimes. Combined, that's more than 1 out of every 70 Americans that gets arrested every year for either drug or alcohol offenses.

Do we make any attempt to offer help to those who want it, or do we just throw bigger obstacles in their way? Well let's see...for a first offense DUI, you get mandatory jail time -- possibly enough to cause someone to lose their job. Repeat offenders get more jail time, bigger fines, etc. First offense marijuana possession, you get probation and mandatory drug testing. Violating probation or repeat offenses will get you jail time. Or for college students, any drug arrest (not even a conviction, just an arrest) can cost you your financial aid and possibly get you permanently expelled from school.

At some point in the not-too-distant future, there will be more American families damaged by zero tolerance than not. We may even reach the point where there are more people with criminal records than without. At that point, maybe we will collectively decide that we're going about all this the wrong way, and that our society and our economy can't afford to keep building more and more prisons and have such a large % of our workforce under-utilized due to lost educational opportunities and the stigma of trying to find a decent job when you have a criminal record.

"insanedeadorinjail" may be a popular program marketing slogan, and we all know that very few people go insane or die from their adolescent turbulence and everything that goes with it. But jail is not a fantasy -- it's very much a reality for many of our citizens. Many program parents and potential program parents are terrified of what that means for their kids, and with that fear, they can be very susceptible to the program sales pitch that claims to offer solutions that are outside of the legal system.

If we didn't live in a police state, that sales pitch would be much less effective.

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