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What is an alcoholic?
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What is an alcoholic?

Postby btnben » Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:18 pm
There was a thread on the OP called this and Orange gave a great reply which I have seen from him several times before. It's a classic example of AA doublespeak squared (is that quadruplespeak? ). Orange distilled the different answers to the above question that Bill W gave to suit the whole bait and switch game.

The definitions are:

1. An alcoholic is someone who habitually drinks far too much alcohol.

2. An alcoholic is someone who is hyper-sensitive to alcohol, almost allergic to alcohol, perhaps a genetic alcoholic; someone who cannot drink even one drink or his drinking will spin out of control and he will become readdicted to alcohol.

3. An alcoholic is somebody who cannot quit drinking — he is "powerless" over alcohol.

4. An alcoholic is an insane sinner who is full of disgusting character defects and moral shortcomings and resentments and barely-contained anger, and is a prime example of self-will run riot and instincts run wild and selfishness and self-seeking and the Seven Deadly Sins, although he doesn't think so... etc., etc., ...

When I call myself an alcoholic, I usually mean definition 2, and only occasionally
definition 1, but never definitions 3 or 4.


By definition 1, I stopped being an alcoholic more than 11 years ago.

By definition 2, I will always be an alcoholic.

By definition 3, I wasn't an alcoholic, because I could quit drinking, and I did.
I was not "powerless over alcohol".
I even quit drinking without any help from A.A., because I quit drinking two weeks before I was ever sent to an A.A. meeting.

By definition 4, I was never an alcoholic. I was always a nice drunk.
People liked having me at their parties because I was so much fun to have around when I got high. (But, as one friend said, "Even nice drunks die of cirrhosis of the liver...")


How about you? Which type, or combination thereof, are you?

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Re: What is an alcoholic?

Postby Avo » Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:53 pm
As much as I would like to play this game, I am not nor was ever alcoholic. Darn it, Ben. Oh wait, unless I'm #4 or whatever where I'm just the kind that doesn't drink but is full of sin and would if I decided to start drinking.
Pro Empowerment!

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Re: What is an alcoholic?

Postby BB Kate » Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:16 am
Today i tend to use definition number 1. I haven't been an alcoholic for over 8 years though.

I was never an alcoholic according to definitions 3 or four.

I'm not sure about definition 2. I have no idea whether i can never drink safely again or not. I suspect i would be vulnerable to re-addiction. BUt i hate the "allergy" concept, and refuse to use it.

Newsletter

Postby mfc66 » Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:54 pm
Hopefully I just managed to email links to the new newsletter to everyone via a mass email to the addresses you used to sig up. The newsletter will hopefully be a monthly addition and much of the work was done by Ben with help from several others. As I hope they will do more I have put a page on the front of the site here.

http://recoveringfromrecovery.com/archive/?page_id=280

The actual news letter is here

http://recoveringfromrecovery.com/archi ... NL1208.pdf

Thanks again to Ben and Neiko and all the others who have started this after long nights talking in the chatroom and on Skype

They are quoting James Frey. They consider James to be victim.

X-Sponsor & AA friends calling & coming by
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X-Sponsor & AA friends calling & coming by

Postby rainbow » Mon May 28, 2012 5:12 am
OK, so I know I'm an intelligent woman, who can make up my own mind to do things & I can make my own decisions, but I could really use some advice right now. My x-sponsor called tonight. I panicked when I saw it was her on the caller ID, and I let it go to the answering machine. Now, I really do like this woman in many ways, but I don't really want to talk to her yet. I'm not ready. Hmm, I guess that's my answer right there, huh? AA has worked for her for 33 years, and I'm really happy it does -- for her. I kind of feel like a chicken-$hit for not calling her anymore -- have only called her once, and I did it when I knew she was at work & I left a message.

A few of my AA friends have come by and -- some of them I will see -- but then other times I pretend that I'm not home. Curtains shut & quiet as a mouse I am until they leave. It's because I'm scared of some of them. Afraid they'll try to sway me back into their rooms. Afraid they'll start in on their cult talk & propaganda & Guilt. They can't sway me -- I'm done. There's no going back. I think I just need some time. I sure do feel like a chicken right now, though. :| Or maybe I'm just protecting myself. X-sponsor said she hoped I was doing well (and I am). She said she hopes we can connect up again soon...or maybe someday. Maybe. I dunno just yet.

Tonight was birthday night. My friend Diana celebrated her 25th year of sobriety. She came over the other day, we talked, she asked if I was coming to the birthday. I told her I was very proud of her & happy for her, but I just can't go back to that fellowship. She understood. She doesn't exactly enjoy herself there either, she confided. She takes what she needs from there & has a way of leaving the BS there.

When friends ask me why I walked out, I've been real careful to not bash AA or call it a cult to them. I respect their decision to go there. If it works for them, great. But if it isn't working for them, all I can do is hope they wake up & see the Truth someday.

bock bock bock
It's time to OCCUPY AA.

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Re: X-Sponsor & AA friends calling & coming by

Postby btnben » Mon May 28, 2012 10:51 am
It's not easy rainbow - especially at the start. Remember, you are just one person and AA has 75 years of propaganda behind it and a lot of devout followers. I think this is a great topic, because, often when people leave AA they leave the major part of their social life behind. It's not easy in the early days.

I found that the best way was to say nothing until asked. If someone then asked why I didn't go to meetings I simply said I thought it was rubbish. Obviously, how I said "rubbish" depended on who it was and how much I wanted to wind them up - no-one said I had to be perfect

The word quickly gets around and people leave you alone. Remember all the "love bombing" when you first went to AA? Just see how many AA friends remain after you leave. I think they call it "true colours" don't they? :evil:

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Re: X-Sponsor & AA friends calling & coming by

Postby istj04 » Mon May 28, 2012 10:04 pm
The ones who are "stalking you" (for lack of a better term!) are doing so because they want to see if YOU ARE STILL SOBER (they believe the bullshit, that you can't be sober OUTSIDE the "rooms", "at a meeting", or engaging in the 24-7 co-dependance that IS "12-Steppism". All you have to do to keep the "cultists" away is:

1.) Inform them that you NO LONGER MEET MEMBERSHIP CRITERIA ("Desire to stop drinking") as you have ALREADY STOPPED, STAYED STOPPED, and ARE CONTINUING TO STAY STOPPED!

2.) Remain sober. Now! Now! And NOW!

3.) If they keep coming by, then THREATEN THEM WITH ALCOHOL! Put it on your front doorstep, and tell them they must drink it before they come in, or ring your doorbell, or call you! Then if they do, laugh and point at them because YOU STAYED SOBER, and THEY DID NOT! Then tell them to get their asses to the co-dependent, cultist "meeting" that they clearly have no life without! And to never call you again. You outrank them. You are INDEPENDENT AND SOBER! They are not, will not, and cannot be, or remain such!

4.) Film/record whatever interaction you have with these people, and put it on You Tube, thus BLOWING THEIR "ANONYMITY", and exposing them for the cultists they are! That ought to stop them!

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Re: X-Sponsor & AA friends calling & coming by

Postby Dare031 » Tue May 29, 2012 1:53 am
When I broke from the cult, I told my sponsor that his services as such, were not required any longer. I also told him that if he wanted to talk fishing, cars, or sports, it was cool with me. He intially wanted to know how my dry drunk was going. I firmly informed him that I was no longer a member, and that the condition of not discussing AA was NOT negotiable. Long story short, both he and my former cult members simply faded away into history. I no longer wanted what they had, and they went away. Not answering your door, or telephone, is not cowardly. It is totally your right not to answer both your door, and your phone. Nobody owns you. Take your time. You own no one an explanation. Your life is your business. Take care of yourself.
Blind respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth. - Dr. Albert Einstein

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Re: X-Sponsor & AA friends calling & coming by

Postby teatotaler » Tue May 29, 2012 6:16 pm

    istj04 wrote:The ones who are "stalking you" (for lack of a better term!) are doing so because they want to see if YOU ARE STILL SOBER (they believe the bullshit, that you can't be sober OUTSIDE the "rooms", "at a meeting", or engaging in the 24-7 co-dependance that IS "12-Steppism". All you have to do to keep the "cultists" away is:

    1.) Inform them that you NO LONGER MEET MEMBERSHIP CRITERIA ("Desire to stop drinking") as you have ALREADY STOPPED, STAYED STOPPED, and ARE CONTINUING TO STAY STOPPED!

    2.) Remain sober. Now! Now! And NOW!

    3.) If they keep coming by, then THREATEN THEM WITH ALCOHOL! Put it on your front doorstep, and tell them they must drink it before they come in, or ring your doorbell, or call you! Then if they do, laugh and point at them because YOU STAYED SOBER, and THEY DID NOT! Then tell them to get their asses to the co-dependent, cultist "meeting" that they clearly have no life without! And to never call you again. You outrank them. You are INDEPENDENT AND SOBER! They are not, will not, and cannot be, or remain such!

    4.) Film/record whatever interaction you have with these people, and put it on You Tube, thus BLOWING THEIR "ANONYMITY", and exposing them for the cultists they are! That ought to stop them!




THAT IS AWESOME!!! If I could scream with laughter and shout, "Right on!" so that it could be heard all across this country, I would! I esp. love that part about putting alcohol on the doorstep and telling them they have to drink it as a requirement to even ring the doorbell! :lol: :!: Also, they are still cult members. IMO, no one owes those cultists a darned thing - not a phone call, not a contact, not even a final "Goodbye, good luck, and goddamn ya!" (Well, maybe that last part...LOL). I view them as cult members when they were in their ROOMZ, and they are still cult members outside of their ROOMZ - yep, that even includes running into them at the grocery store. Here's a zinger that works for me if, for some reason, they try to talk to me. I look them in the eye like they are excrement, and I say: "You must be mistaking me for someone else." I haven't run into many of them over the last year or so, but if they try to talk to me, their "serenity" WILL get disturbed! No cultist has any individual's best interests at heart - it doesn't matter what they say or how "nice" they act (see "love-bombing" in istjo4's post). IMO, your safety and well-being - on all levels - comes FIRST! Sorry for rambling on. Peace.

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Re: X-Sponsor & AA friends calling & coming by

Postby massive » Wed May 30, 2012 6:08 am
OMG RAINBOW what a fantastic post! I was laughing so hard at some of the great feedback you were given here as well. I think you know whats right. Stay away and get strong so when you want, not when they demand it, you will know what exactly to say in time.

When I left, a few contacted me through facebook saying they missed me there and it wasnt the same without me but they did not even pick up the phone. Maybe 4 are really friends in a room filled with 40-50 a night. Only one called me on the phone. I was not surprised. They became to ice me out 8 months prior over the Make AA Safer Issue that a group of us worked really hard on.

But when I left, I had been planning my escape for months, about 4 to be exact. I debated just leaving without saying anything.
Its not my style. So IN january of 2011 I started going every other week to the only meeting I went to ...a women's stagg. We did alot of the Make AA Safer stuff together so they knew what I went through as a GSR. I started going to Smart meetings and I would share about SMart and Orange papers every time I shared. Always a few women would come up to me asking me about " what is that Smart thing you talked about" I was planting seeds on purpose.

I took my last cake in early May. I asked someone to do the treasury for me every other week. And for the first time I didnt care or feel guilty. It was fantastic to feel this way after 36 years of feeling so obligated to AA to be of service. Bloggers on ST debated whether I would really leave. I had alot of support from that blog. Thanks Ilse and Mark for that too.

So that last night in May 2011, I waited till the last share, and I raised my hand and I say "Im done. I had it. That AA is so full of shit and NY AA and the area I no longer believed in any of it and that I was gonna go to Smart and I felt like my youth was stolen from me" ...on and on I went. I felt so relieved.
(really I only spoke for 3 minutes) they have a timer there... LOL There were actually some tearful women, some phoney smiles, some genuine hugs, some ignored me and passed me by. Overall it was really good. I felt great. I left there with my head held high! I did not give a fuck. I had done so much fucking service in AA in was pathetic.

Thank God I believe in some Buddhist aspects so now I believe none of that service was wasted . It was done for me, my children and my family. No genuine service that we do for mankind is ever wasted. ( now that is another big lie they tell newcomers. That we have to be of service to stay sober....that is Bullshit!)

But at first RAINBOW I was furious about the amount of time I was in AA and what a fool, koolaid drinking BB thumber /sponsor I was. Although I like to think I was special and did believe in therapy and every type of outside work possible. Clara from op I was never

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Re: X-Sponsor & AA friends calling & coming by

Postby massive » Wed May 30, 2012 6:15 am
istg04 btbben all of you had me laughing on the floor! Thanks for this thread rainbow

oh yea , then I went to Hawaii in the summer and invited all my old best buds to dinner. Usually I had a little AA meeting in my house. Instead we ate, then while having dessert I said I have an annoucement. I have left AA and this is why. I pulled out my Make AA Safer pamphlet and my newest postcard which says

"Is 12 Step not working for you"? and the list of non 12 step choices on the back.

They all laughed and said, Thats Monica! a rebel still at heart. I have know them since I was 18 and they are real friends. But that was back then in the 70's. One friend has a husband who is not my friend and he sad there with that stupid judgmental face. I will never invite him again.

sorry so long .....

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Re: X-Sponsor & AA friends calling & coming by

Postby nieko » Wed May 30, 2012 7:03 am
Oh this one did make me laugh!

Since I left in January I've had a few of them call me, I tell them various things depending on how I'm feeling at the time.
It was the CA world convention not so far from me the weekend just gone, Chris R and a load of crazies from Primary Purpose where there apparently, I was gonna go, just on the Saturday and mostly for the dance, my ex-sponsor sent me a text on the Saturday morning, I haven't spoken with her in months.
All the text said was something like "hi, are you coming to the convention" (I even got a kiss on the end of the text, love bombing?) just the idea of seeing her and hearing people talking about inventory and resentments and trying to out "well" each other, it is CA afterall, made me decide I just couldn't face it.

I don't think you were a chicken, I think you were exercising some discernment, there's no reasoning with some of them, especially the ones who are super programmed. Some of them are okay but they speak riddles. The term "ex" implies ex for a reason, move house, or put electric fence around it or yeah, leave liquor on the doorstep - I particularly liked that one!

The step 10 promises have not yet been 100% fulfilled for me as regards steppers, yes, I recoil from them as from a hot flame but I am not in a position of neutrality, safe and protected by ashtray God, the problem has not yet been removed, I've just removed myself from the problem.

Remember it's not their fault, they were born that way it's amazing they can even make it to your doorstep considering they are "men who have had their legs cut off" - wow to think of all that paper they're going to have to waste writing inventory on you...
People come and go so quickly around here - Dorothy Gale

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Re: X-Sponsor & AA friends calling & coming by

Postby Vicky345uk » Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:02 am
I remember going see chris raymer at Denmark convention, what a fucking insulting moron. GDP I hate those people

Xx

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Re: X-Sponsor & AA friends calling & coming by

Postby dorak nob » Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:44 am
after leaving AA got really drunk one night, one night. So next day get a call from concerned AA friend. How the hell did he know what the hell I was up to? Then I remembered at the time my wife was in Al Anon , she had a sponsor. So happy she quit that crazy making cult, I swear I would quit every substance know to man or woman to keep my wife from Al Anon. She doesn't need any part of Bill Wilsons guilt inducing cult, what the hell I was the one that got drunk.

Now, you tell me? Who has the ego problem here. STFU!!!!

Re: AA Wants To Erase You!

Postby kehsciences » Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:11 pm

    Primrose wrote:It's not just a religious cult. It is a pick up joint and a social club.



I'm in the camp that doesn't believe it's a religious cult (AA is far too boring and the people far too unreliable) but wholeheartedly agree that, if you're looking for a quick screw or a place to meet a bunch of grumpy people with absolutely no interest in anything remotely original, AA is tops. It's also a fine place to get insulted and, my personal favorite, feel just as out-of-place as you may have before. You know, one of the reasons why you may have picked up drinking in the first place. Only in AA it's your doing: step up and meet the grumpy folk, you self-centered f*ck.

I am, of course, bearer of the Self-Centered F*ck label. And, like others that have their sanity in mind, I find the things that got me labeled as an AA Outsider ("Go drink up, bitch. We'll welcome you back. Research! Do your research! See you in a bit... if you're lucky!") are the same things that got me a good education and other burdens of ambition and effort. The hell do I know, though? I'm just one guy.

Well good for you. I am sure then, you will not be overwhelmed by this new cult you just joined, RFR.

AA Wants To Erase You!

Postby Gunthar2000 » Tue May 29, 2012 2:11 am
Be sure you know what you are doing before you get involved with these people... they hate you the way you are and, make no mistake about it, they want to change everything about you. Why? Because you are not good enough for their God.

What do they want to turn you into?... A slogan spouting moron who spends every night in a dirty church basement pissing and moaning about your character defects, and how only AA can cure you. The ultimate goal??? They want you to be recruiter for their very creepy and strange way of living.

AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism. Their cure is for you to turn your life and your will over to God. This is not a legitimate treatment for anything. The whole thing is a big fat mess of bunk. You can do better than what they have to offer.

Yes, Gunthar. The message of AA crawls into your brain like a termite, gnawing away at the brain flesh, creating a cavity, so a cache of brainwashing thoughts can be deposited. What a fucking nut, please for christ sake stay on your meds.

This is JR Harris (from Stinkin Thinkin)....lmao. People this can only come from his brain.





12 Step Gang Stalking in NA & AA
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12 Step Gang Stalking in NA & AA

Postby JR Harris » Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:56 pm
This is a very good post describing 12 Step Gang Stalking in NA & AA entitled "Psychological Violence. Example: 12 Step Meetings/Recovery."

Highly recommended and very true.....

    Psychological Violence. Example: 12 Step Meetings/Recovery

    November 12, 2006 in Alcoholics Anonymous, crime, Gang Stalking, psychology, recovery, Street Harassment | 23 comments

    Terror stalking is done at AA meetings, targeting individuals who are innocent people and victims of either cult revenge or a wider phenomena known as multistalking. Through a carefully worked out scheme that involves seating arrangements, and crafted posturing by AA/NA memebers, and stalking, along with carefully directed discussion or monologues, the individual who is the target of this psychological violence is led into feelings of unease, unsettleness, and anxiety. This is usually done after a target has been slandered, and a senitization of the slander theme has been done to the target.

    The criminals involved in this psychological violence will have debilitated the victims self confidence und undermined the victims psychology, prior to the meeting by using senitizations related to themes of a slandering campaign, subtle disrespects and an array of covert harassment techniques that may include taste alterations of drinks served at the meeting, or directed converstaions with the victim before the meeting. Overall, the victim will have been conditioned to feel a heightened level of self-conscious and unease, thus laying the ground work for the person to appear unsettled when certain planned topics or words are said in the meeting during the open disscussion monologues.

    All this is done to discredit the victim of this crime, in a carefully planned and executed psychological assault.

    The person will typically have been labeled, through slander, as having hidden dark secrets, or as having committed some heinous crime, to members of the meeting who are not part of the psychological harassment activity, and have no knowledge of it . These members of the meeting, who may include members of a neighborhood watch, will be asked by those perpetrating the harassment , to observe the target when a monologue uses certain words, or when it goes into or touches on certain topics that are associated with the the content of the slander.

    All that is told to these people, the on lookers and recipients of the slander, is that certain topics will be brought up on purpose to see whether the person, the victim, has some reaction. The victim, being senitized to these topics related to the slander, through an array of psychological harassments, in a on going campaing over a long period of time, is utterly defenseless.

    After such a well crafted psychological staging, the victim appears, in the eyes of these, perhaps invited on lookers, in the meeting, to have commited some crime, for the victim will appear to have some sensitivity to the topics chosen, thus leading people to believe the slander. Typically, the victims in these assults are innocent people, who’s lives are being trashed and wrecked by criminals, memeber of AA/NA, or fellow clients within recovery facilities.

    The recovery industry, Alcoholics Anonymous, and other 12 Step Groups seem to be arenas where the phenomena of terror stalking is able to be orchestrated with precision. The moral health of many people in recovery has been battered through years of lying, cheating, stealing, and other criminal activity. They can easily be led into the activities of terror stalking, cult revenge, and covert harassment. The victims of these crimes commited in 12 Step Groups, AA, and the recovery industry are usually helpless. Having no way to defend themselves from the slander, and victims of the covert psychological harassments that are done to substantiate the slander, over a long period of time, they become the weak, preyed upon by vicious criminally inclined people, who by acting as a group, are not only veiled from any possible acknowledgement of the terrible wrong commited against an innocent defenseless person, but are vindicated from any guilt that may derive from taking pleasures in such a dirty crime.

    The substantiations of the slander that result from the craft of psychological sensitization and staged assults in a structured environment, are shallow and weak. None the less people are suffering and their lives are being destroyed by a groups of people who validate some false moral reformation that they seemingly have been brought through the groups ethos of AA/NA, by stalking, harassing and partaking in psychological violence directed at defenseless innocent people, who become targets of hate.

    This hate serves to galvanize the groups as a whole, creating the impression of having great power and total control. In addictions, as admitted in the 12 steps of AA, these people are powerless over a substance, or some may interpret it as a powerlessness over the addiction, and that they have no control within their lives. Seems to be that these people have issues with control and power.

    Unity in the destructive hate crime of terror stalking, covertly done, gives them a sense of total control, and great power, in that the victim is turely at their mercy, defenseless. AA unity also creates a shared element where all have seemingly come out of a past life that was founded on deficiencies in moral character, and now share the glory of sobriety, which to many of these people means their moral character is mystically revamped. The hidden aspect of the exercises of terror stalking lend greatly to such a people.

    Through heinous psychological violence perpetrated on an innocent person, these memebrs achieve a sense of moral uprightness that could not be achieved in the world outside of AA, or the recovery industry. AA/NA and the recovery community is a safe haven for people who have long sorted pasts, and are morally corrupt. The facilities of the recovery community and meetings of AA/NA are all places where terror stalking can be carefully planned and done, to innocent people with little defense. Is this not a kind of rape, a violent act in which power is used to do great harm, injury and injustice, to the defenseless.

    Links

    http://www.psychologicalharassment.com/index.htm

    http://magic-city-news.com/printer_6147.shtml

    http://www.multistalkervictims.org/

    minigh d. (waterinch)



Source:https://formationquay.wordpress.com/

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Re: 12 Step Gang Stalking in NA & AA

Postby mfc66 » Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:28 pm
Thanks for this post, quite a lot to think about here. I do feel that many are empowered in a groups and will often go to great lengths to manipulate hoers to follow the 12 steps in a very strange way so that it completely dominates their life. they believe it is always the right thing to do but it often will cause problems for the more sensitive newcomer who may go and relapse.
http://recoveringfromrecovery.com

If we really thought they were serious and compassionate to their cause, we would sit back and not feel like we must take action against these marauding abusive people. In the coming weeks we will open up a window to the abusive behavior of many of the members who belong to RFR=RecoveringfromRecovery.
Massive
Avocagno
JR Harris
Btnben
Mfc66
causeandeffect
Rainbow
Gunthar
DeConstructor

It is amazing how many sides of a mouth one can talk out of.
This website advocates for more science and less anecdotal evidence. Yet if you look at the chat room discussions they are advertising it is nothing more then a AA meeting with out the AA stamp. Stop by the chatroom, I have on a few occasions (I will not post those discussions here because this would be extremely violating) they speak the same lingo, thoughts and actions that people still in AA do.
Note...
 I do not have a issue posting the forum threads because they are open to the public eye.