Fornits

Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Straight, Inc. and Derivatives => Topic started by: 90's Guy on February 12, 2005, 10:55:00 PM

Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: 90's Guy on February 12, 2005, 10:55:00 PM: Did u guys know that Peterman was a Seed volunteer Mom in the early 70's. That is where she started. She then started working at Straight, but all the ideas came from The Seed. That is where I went to The Seed. The ideas at Growing Together and Life were not from Straight. They were from The Seed, who originated the whole concept, even Moral Inventories.
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Anonymous on February 12, 2005, 11:11:00 PM: Yes indeed, I DID know that. Life and GT never took on that "military" style that Straight used.
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: 90's Guy on February 12, 2005, 11:15:00 PM: But Anon, you keep saying "Straight" and I'm telling you it was not Straight. The concepts originated from Seed, which was not military in nature. I think if you really learned about The Seed, you would be shocked how much more authentic and real it was than all the copy cat programs, like Life/ growing together.
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Anonymous on February 12, 2005, 11:29:00 PM: Quote
On 2005-02-12 20:15:00, 90's Guy wrote:

"But Anon, you keep saying "Straight" and I'm telling you it was not Straight. The concepts originated from Seed, which was not military in nature. I think if you really learned about The Seed, you would be shocked how much more authentic and real it was than all the copy cat programs, like Life/ growing together."

The reason I mentioned STRAIGHT, is because the majority of Posters on Fornits seem to come from there, and lump ALL treatment programs together relating them STRICTLY to STRAIGHT. That's why the reference. I was in LIFE.
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: 90's Guy on February 12, 2005, 11:33:00 PM: I know, but what you and a lot of people here do not even begin to realize is that the origin was not Straight. The original, authentic program was The Seed by Art Barker. Beleive me there was no other, and unofrtunately, Life was a cheap copy cat of that program. There was not real love or committment like at The Seed. Straight tried to duplicate The Seed, but it was not able to.
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Anonymous on February 12, 2005, 11:45:00 PM: Ok - yes, I was NOT in the Seed, but I do know a lot about it and some people that were involved in it in the '70's. I was in LIFE and felt the program was tough, but good and I learned a lot there, and have no "gripes" about it. Took what I needed from it and moved on.
What year were you at the SEED? First name?

Kim
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Anonymous on February 12, 2005, 11:55:00 PM: Kim, are you from St Pete? How old are you and what school did you go to?

The seed sucks.
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: 90's Guy on February 13, 2005, 12:03:00 AM: See what you odo not realize is that u were all a part of a copy cat program, not the real thing.
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Anonymous on February 13, 2005, 12:05:00 AM: Quote
On 2005-02-12 21:03:00, 90's Guy wrote:

"See what you odo not realize is that u were all a part of a copy cat program, not the real thing."

THe real thing sucked too. The was little difference, 90 guy. In fact, straight was started by all seedlings, and Life was a direct copy.

You are kind of barking up the wrong tree. In order to believe these places were so different (and there not, i have visited the modern day programs and they all have the same cultic "love") then you have to believe that Art was somehow special.

He was not.
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 13, 2005, 12:11:00 AM: Quote
On 2005-02-12 20:33:00, 90's Guy wrote:

"I know, but what you and a lot of people here do not even begin to realize is that the origin was not Straight. The original, authentic program was The Seed by Art Barker. Beleive me there was no other, and unofrtunately, Life was a cheap copy cat of that program. There was not real love or committment like at The Seed. Straight tried to duplicate The Seed, but it was not able to."

Yep. And it was the Seed that begat Straight, Inc., which begat LIFE. Helen Peterman was a Seed parent, then on staff at Straight before she formed LIFE with George Ross.

http://thestraights.com/the-straights/t ... hts-fc.htm (http://thestraights.com/the-straights/thestraights-fc.htm)

I'll admit, LIFE was a cheap copycat ... of anything - especially of anything resembling "treatment". But then again, so was the Seed and Straight.
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Anonymous on February 13, 2005, 12:16:00 AM: The Seed was noht a copy cat of anything, except some of the philiosphical concetps of A.A., but shapeb by Art Barker for adolescents. YOu are so blind to beleive that Peterman and the rest of these quacks had even one ounce of the charisma that Art had. You were not at The Seed, so u do not know. Beleive me I recognize The Seed was not perfect, but it was more authentic and much deeper than these other copy cats.
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Anonymous on February 13, 2005, 12:24:00 AM: the seed "copied" much of their techniques from the synanon and AA.

Also, many of the techniques are similar to cults lke the moonies, hari krisnas and Scientology. Further, other programs using the techniques predated the seed such as CEDU.

Original? Don't make me laugh. The seed was bullshit and you seem still suckered by it.
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 13, 2005, 12:32:00 AM: Quote
On 2005-02-12 21:16:00, Anonymous wrote:

"The Seed was noht a copy cat of anything, except some of the philiosphical concetps of A.A., but shapeb by Art Barker for adolescents. YOu are so blind to beleive that Peterman and the rest of these quacks had even one ounce of the charisma that Art had. You were not at The Seed, so u do not know. Beleive me I recognize The Seed was not perfect, but it was more authentic and much deeper than these other copy cats."

So this is about charisma? So what? The FACT[/i] is that Peterman started in the Seed, passed thru Straight and came to LIFE. What the fuck does "Charisma" have to do with anything?
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 13, 2005, 12:40:00 AM: You know what?

I don't know what scares me worse: the fact that these gulags and charlatans are still in operation and infecting the minds of kids whose parents were duped in the first place (about the "great war on drugs) ...

OR

The fact that there are now 30 years worth of devotees and apologists for methods that have been proved harmful, and still propogate in yet larger numbers, messing up even more lives.... and the people that don't regard their lives as hindered by these people, are simply unable to think for themselves - effectively becoming drones.

Thank you, but I'm HAPPY to be a "cop out"!
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Thom on February 13, 2005, 01:10:00 AM: let me get this Straight....it was the Seed that begat Straight, which begat LIFE. Helen Peterman was a Seed parent, then on staff at Straight before she formed LIFE with George Ross. Just exactly how did Peterman and Ross form LIFE? Did the Seed come Straight from Ross, and were their spouses aware of the relationship? If Ross' Seed begat Straight's LIFE, how then did Art's charisma and AA/CEDU/etc. spawn the original Seed's LIFE Straight from Ross' Seed which was a product of Art's charismatic LIFE? I just hope Peterman and Ross dealt Straight with their formation of Life in their moral inventories (which, by the way, pre-date The Seed by either approx. 1900 years (Bible), or around 40 years(AA), depending on how you believe, believe it or not. Not Peterman, Ross or Art, but the art of moral inventory taking, that is) And that's the Straight stuff.
::argue::

_________________
later, Thom
I think I know where I got off track! I thought the 11th step said 'Sought through beer and medication to remove our conscious contact w/ God...I plead lysdexia!
Who wants to say why we sing jingle bells?[ This Message was edited by: Thom on 2005-02-12 22:16 ]
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Antigen on February 13, 2005, 01:18:00 AM: Quote
On 2005-02-12 21:03:00, 90's Guy wrote:

"See what you odo not realize is that u were all a part of a copy cat program, not the real thing."

There's another way to look at it. The Seed was a failure and Staight, Life, GT, Phoenix House and Daytop were successful. The difference is only that the later programs were able to tow the line while still garnering federal, state and local grants while The Seed floundered as an obscure, little attended cult.

Art had a big heart and good intentions. I'll grant him that. But he had NO concept whatever of the actual effect he had on real people. It was all about the praise and adulation for him. NIDA didn't offer him that. He had to be a beggaring servant to climb that laddar. He would't do that. Mel and Mickey and Helen and George did.

Don't think I don't give Art credit where due. He was, afterall, a childhood hero of mine. But part of growing up is about auditing all those old accounts. Art gets A+ for good intentions and effort, 0 for followthrough. Shit, by the time I was 14 or so I knew the difference between coerced adulation and genuine respect! What the fuck was wrong w/ Art??
Come in the evening, or come in the morning; Come when you 're looked for, or come without warning.
-- Thomas O. Davis (1814-1845): The Welcome.

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 13, 2005, 01:24:00 AM: Quote
On 2005-02-12 22:10:00, Thom wrote:

"let me get this Straight....it was the Seed that begat Straight, which begat LIFE. Helen Peterman was a Seed parent, then on staff at Straight before she formed LIFE with George Ross. Just exactly how did Peterman and Ross form LIFE?

Who the hell really knows? Word is that Ross was disenchanted with Miller - Netwon's "shenanigans" (I think that's a quote) and decided to try something different. No, I wasn't in the Seed nor Straight, but I did run into someone from Straight Stoughton years later, and our stories were the same. And in reading about the Seed, anyone can connect the dots.

Quote
Did the Seed come Straight from Ross, and were their spouses aware of the relationship?

Say WHAT?

Quote
If Ross' Seed begat Straight's LIFE, how then did Art's charisma and AA/CEDU/etc. spawn the original Seed's LIFE Straight from Ross' Seed?

Oh man, it IS late! Or that second glass of wine was too much! "Seed's LIFE Straight"???? Aieeeee!

Quote
I just hope Peterman and Ross dealt Straight with their formation of Life in their moral inventories (which, by the way, pre-dates The Seed by either approx. 1900 years (Bible), or around 40 years(AA), depending on how you believe, believe it or not. Not Peterman, Ross or Art, but the art of moral inventory taking, that is) And that's the Straight stuff.

::argue::
"

I'm truly not getting your meaning here... or the last paragraph (aieeeee!) My God - don't DO this to me while I'm enjoying my grapes! :grin:

_________________
"I was a long time coming
I'll be a long time gone
you've got your whole life to do something
and that's not very long"

- Ani DiFranco[ This Message was edited by: ~-=Sara=-~ on 2005-02-12 22:34 ]
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Anonymous on February 13, 2005, 01:25:00 AM: here we go again. do NOT say anything about these programs UNLESS it's negative, hateful or crude. this is the guideline of this forum. if you dare state anything other than the programs were abuse-filled, harmful and evil, you WILL BE SHOT down IMMEDIATELY - NO questions asked.

talk about cults :exclaim:
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Anonymous on February 13, 2005, 01:28:00 AM: Quote
On 2005-02-12 22:24:00, ~-=Sara=-~ wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-02-12 22:10:00, Thom wrote:

"let me get this Straight....it was the Seed that begat Straight, which begat LIFE. Helen Peterman was a Seed parent, then on staff at Straight before she formed LIFE with George Ross. Just exactly how did Peterman and Ross form LIFE?

Who the hell really knows? Word is that Ross was disenchanted with Miller - Netwon's "shenanigans" (I think that's a quote) and decided to try something different. No, I wasn't in the Seed nor Straight, but I did run into someone from Straight Stoughton years later, and our stories were the same. And in reading about the Seed, anyone can connect the dots.

Quote

Did the Seed come Straight from Ross, and were their spouses aware of the relationship?

Say WHAT?

Quote

If Ross' Seed begat Straight's LIFE, how then did Art's charisma and AA/CEDU/etc. spawn the original Seed's LIFE Straight from Ross' Seed?

Oh man, it IS late! Or that second glass of wine was too much! "Seed's LIFE Straight"???? Aieeeee!

Quote

I just hope Peterman and Ross dealt Straight with their formation of Life in their moral inventories (which, by the way, pre-dates The Seed by either approx. 1900 years (Bible), or around 40 years(AA), depending on how you believe, believe it or not. Not Peterman, Ross or Art, but the art of moral inventory taking, that is) And that's the Straight stuff.

::argue::

"

I'm truly not getting your meaning here... or the last paragraph (aieeeee!) I swear... it was only two glasses of wine! :grin:
"

uummmm - it's called HUMOR. hello?!
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 13, 2005, 01:36:00 AM: Quote
uummmm - it's called HUMOR. hello?!"

Hello! I knew that! (Just checking!) :grin:

_________________
"I was a long time coming
I'll be a long time gone
you've got your whole life to do something
and that's not very long"

- Ani DiFranco[ This Message was edited by: ~-=Sara=-~ on 2005-02-12 22:38 ][ This Message was edited by: ~-=Sara=-~ on 2005-02-12 22:41 ]
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 13, 2005, 01:37:00 AM: Quote
On 2005-02-12 22:25:00, Anonymous wrote:

" here we go again. do NOT say anything about these programs UNLESS it's negative, hateful or crude. this is the guideline of this forum. if you dare state anything other than the programs were abuse-filled, harmful and evil, you WILL BE SHOT down IMMEDIATELY - NO questions asked.

talk about cults :exclaim: "

Oh Hi, Darren... didn't see you there. Welcome! :grin:
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Antigen on February 13, 2005, 02:00:00 AM: Quote
On 2005-02-12 21:40:00, ~-=Sara=-~ wrote:

"You know what?

OR

The fact that there are now 30 years worth of devotees and apologists for methods that have been proved harmful, and still propogate in yet larger numbers, messing up even more lives.... and the people that don't regard their lives as hindered by these people, are simply unable to think for themselves - effectively becoming drones.

Thank you, but I'm HAPPY to be a "cop out"!
"

Oh, don't worry about that. Most of us have come to terms w/ wtf chewed us up and spit us out. There are only a rare few who view the whole thing as the light of salvation. Even the ppl sitting next to them in the pew or the cop who lives accross the street think they're strange.

Just read up on Don Smith's recount of what it was like to be a staff trainee at Straight. He's a good guy and always reminded me of my brother. I think that's why I always liked him so much. He's square and honest as the day is long. He'll always tell you the truth as he sees it. So will Thom, as he sees it.

Forgiveness is divine. Forgetfulness is just a mental dysfunction.
--Antigen
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 13, 2005, 02:05:00 AM: Quote

Just read up on Don Smith's recount of what it was like to be a staff trainee at Straight. He's a good guy and always reminded me of my brother. I think that's why I always liked him so much. He's square and honest as the day is long. He'll always tell you the truth as he sees it. So will Thom, as he sees it.

Is that "Why Staff Relapse"? I just read that. Very Scarenteresting.
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: GregFL on February 13, 2005, 11:02:00 AM: Darren, time to read up on what a cult is.

If this was an anti program "cult"....well, you would not be allowed to associate with us.

educate yourself and you will be able to get your point across in a much more credible way. erroneous criticism just isn't effective.
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Anonymous on October 21, 2005, 09:10:00 AM: LIFER HERE

BELIEVE IT WAS 1990-1991. ALTOGETHER THERE ABOUT NINETEEN MONTHES. STILL CONFUSED BY THAT EXPERIENCE BUT OVERALL I THINK IT WAS BETTER THAN NOT GOING AT ALL. i WOULD LIKE TO THINK THE OLD LADY PETE CARED. HER BELLOWING TRUMPET VOICE STILL RINGS IN MY HEAD. MY NAME IS SEAN. I WAS PART OF THE CHARLESTON CREW. MY GOOD FRIEND THAT WAS THERE WITH ME FOR A TIME (JOHN HYLAND-ALSO FROM CHARLESTON) DIED FROM A DUI. WE ENJOYED TALKING ABOUT THE LIFE EXPERIENCE IN THOSE EARLIER DAYS. sOMETIMES IT ALMOST SEEMS THAT THE FLORIDA TRIP NEVER REALLY OCCURRED -BUT FOR A TIME, i NEVER THOUGHT IT WOULD END. IF ANYONE CARES TO SHARE -MOTIVATE. SEAN
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Helena Handbasket on October 21, 2005, 08:30:00 PM: Quote
On 2005-10-21 06:10:00, Anonymous wrote:

"LIFER HERE

BELIEVE IT WAS 1990-1991. ALTOGETHER THERE ABOUT NINETEEN MONTHES. STILL CONFUSED BY THAT EXPERIENCE BUT OVERALL I THINK IT WAS BETTER THAN NOT GOING AT ALL. i WOULD LIKE TO THINK THE OLD LADY PETE CARED. HER BELLOWING TRUMPET VOICE STILL RINGS IN MY HEAD. MY NAME IS SEAN. I WAS PART OF THE CHARLESTON CREW. MY GOOD FRIEND THAT WAS THERE WITH ME FOR A TIME (JOHN HYLAND-ALSO FROM CHARLESTON) DIED FROM A DUI. WE ENJOYED TALKING ABOUT THE LIFE EXPERIENCE IN THOSE EARLIER DAYS. sOMETIMES IT ALMOST SEEMS THAT THE FLORIDA TRIP NEVER REALLY OCCURRED -BUT FOR A TIME, i NEVER THOUGHT IT WOULD END. IF ANYONE CARES TO SHARE -MOTIVATE. SEAN "

Forgive me for not motivating. I don't consider LIFE a great place to come from. Maybe you can give us a different perspective?
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Jeannine on October 22, 2005, 01:55:00 AM: John Hyland kept running. They had put him back in after a relapse in Charleston. He hated it there. Iwas on staff at the time. I chased after him. He was so desperate not to go back. I wish I would not have let him run.I still think about him and those days often.
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Thom on October 22, 2005, 03:00:00 AM: can't save them all. Sorry to hear about his tragic death.
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Thom on October 22, 2005, 03:04:00 AM: I lost a few friends back then to drugs and alcohol related death. Some were'nt even in the Seed, so they had to work extra hard to become suicidal without help. Sarcasm.
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Thom on October 22, 2005, 03:05:00 AM: Which Charleston was that, anyway?
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Helena Handbasket on October 22, 2005, 12:31:00 PM: Quote
On 2005-10-21 22:55:00, Jeannine wrote:

"John Hyland kept running. They had put him back in after a relapse in Charleston. He hated it there. Iwas on staff at the time. I chased after him. He was so desperate not to go back. I wish I would not have let him run.I still think about him and those days often. "

There's a number of things at work here, than the perceived cause and effect of "Well, he didn't succeed in the program, so now he's dead. This is the fearmongering that drives the industry. Emotional abuse, and taking away basic human rights is not in line with any "treatment" done by professionals.

If he had a real problem, apparently LIFE wasn't the cure since he was so desperate to get out. Maybe the kid needed some real treatment rather than being emotionally assaulted by a bunch of kids. Who's to say this wasn't the proverbial straw on the camel's back for this guy?

It sucks that this guy's among the ranks of "Dead Program Kids" - but how long after LIFE was the crash, and if LIFE didn't help him, did his parents try anything else?
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Helena Handbasket on October 22, 2005, 12:42:00 PM: Quote
On 2005-10-22 00:04:00, Thom wrote:

"I lost a few friends back then to drugs and alcohol related death. Some were'nt even in the Seed, so they had to work extra hard to become suicidal without help. Sarcasm."

Thom, I've been thru The Seed forum a number of times - I haven't had much to say, but when I do, it's there.

The problem I see is that when you have a kid on the path to self-destruction, how does logic follow that you get a bunch of kids to tear him/her down in order to "rebuild them"? It makes no sense. Those few kids needed then, and kids today need professional analysis of the problem, not the stuff of hacks like Petermann and Barker with their little army of untrained "graduates".

Without even focusing on the kids who did not have real problems, what sense does it make to throw them in with kids WITH real problems, and vice-versa? Hanging the term "Druggie" on every kid that walks thru the door is ludicrous.

Think about it - when you have a sniffle, do you go to a pulmonary specialist? No, you go to a general practitioner, and leave the pulmonary docs to treat the people with asthma and lung cancer. Substance abuse - when it exists should be no different. And there is a difference between "use", "abuse" and "dependence".
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Thom on October 22, 2005, 03:50:00 PM: Helena,

I agree with most of what you have said here, and my comment was not directed at you.
I don't believe that involuntary treatment of kids using drugs is effective most of the time. I don't dispute that damage was and is done by adolecent forced treatment programs.

I was a voluntary participant in the Seed, so my perspective is different from many who post here. It's not an I'm right, they're wrong situation, my personal experience was not the same because I was not subjected to any of the in-your-face stuff that many others were, because I was there to learn.

By strict program standards, I was a screw-up, because I abused illicit drugs after I left the Seed. I take issue with the line of reasoning that my drug use after the program was caused by trauma suffered there. I used drugs, before and after program because I had an aversion to the concept of growing up, plain and simple.

My perception just before entering the Seed was influenced by the fact that many kids in my neighborhood were forced to go by their frightened parents. If drug use caused such a big uproar among adults, maybe there was danger ahead that I could not see. Maybe I could benefit from the experiences of those who had been through the ringer with drugs before I got in over my head.

An analogy would be that if I perceived I might be lost or about to get lost, it would be wise to stop and ask directions from someone who had been there, and who knows how to get back.

Another angle would be that if my car broke down, and I called AAA, if I could not offer a fair description of where I was located, and barring GPS, I might be stuck there for a while.

Some preventive maintainance might have allowed me to skip the breakdown altogether. My Seed experience was an oportunity like that.

If I had continued to follow the directions, I likely would not have gotten lost later in life. When I did get lost, and as I entered my thirties was at the point where I could finally stop and ask directions, I still had enough fragments of the old map tucked away in my brain that getting back on track was not as difficult as it might have been had I not, at one point, obtained the map.

I believe The Seed slowed my drug use down a lot. It was hard to enjoy a good buzz once I knew it was not merely a diversion, but was actually counter-productive, and a journey down the wrong path.
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Antigen on October 22, 2005, 05:57:00 PM: Forced, tricked, what's the difference? Never mind the austensible message (which was consistently contradicted by their actions), pay attention to the other side of it for a moment.

"If I leave here and go back to the streets[sic], I'll be totally misserable cause my addiction[sic] is right outside the door doing push ups!" That can be potent a self fulfilling prophecy. I don't think it would ever have happened if you hadn't been so thoroughly indoctrinated w/ the idea.

It's NORMAL for a 14yo kid to be averse to growing up, damn it! It's NORMAL for a young teen to want to sample the goods and try a little of whatever other, older kids are doing.

Thom, you got bad directions from the Seed. I think the reason why you've had souch a rough time 'working your program' is because it just doesn't work very well in the real world.

Besides, you never would have been able to keep w/ the no sex/masturbating rule for very long. So it's probably all for the best.

People who are willing to give up freedom for the sake of short term security, deserve neither freedom nor security.

--Benjamin Franklin

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Thom on October 23, 2005, 12:37:00 AM: Quote
On 2005-10-22 14:57:00, Antigen wrote:

"Forced, tricked, what's the difference? Never mind the austensible message (which was consistently contradicted by their actions), pay attention to the other side of it for a moment.

"If I leave here and go back to the streets[sic], I'll be totally misserable cause my addiction[sic] is right outside the door doing push ups!" That can be potent a self fulfilling prophecy. I don't think it would ever have happened if you hadn't been so thoroughly indoctrinated w/ the idea.

It's NORMAL for a 14yo kid to be averse to growing up, damn it! It's NORMAL for a young teen to want to sample the goods and try a little of whatever other, older kids are doing.

Thom, you got bad directions from the Seed. I think the reason why you've had souch a rough time 'working your program' is because it just doesn't work very well in the real world.

Besides, you never would have been able to keep w/ the no sex/masturbating rule for very long. So it's probably all for the best.

Ging,

This is not the first time you have made mention of your perception that I have trouble working my program. You make it sound like I've been in this life-long battle for abstinance. This has not been my situation at all. in the early '70's, I worked the program, and got results. Then I stopped working the program, and stopped getting results. I did that twice during that time period.

From the period of around '75-'91, I worked no program, and drugged and drank as much as I wanted to. From '91 to the present, I have worked the program, and gotten my desired results. Abstinance from alcohol, drugs (including nicotine) and cut way back on caffiene. I have no problem with the real world stuff today.

I understand that if I smoke, I increase the risk of cancer, heart disease, emphysema, etc. So I choose not to smoke because I don't really want those things.

If I drink/drug, I increase the risk of liver, heart, kidney, brain, relationship, legal, employment, etc. problems. Again, these are not things I want, so I don't drink/drug.

I see no problem here. Why manufacture one? Is it because of a need of your's to use sensationalism and exageration to somehow try and distort my experiences into something more supportive of your agenda? It's an anoying habit of yours, and I do wish you would try to refrain from it. I don't feel you are any more qualified to psycho-analize my behavior than Art is. Or...did you visit the paper mill too?

Not quite sure why you saw fit to through in the comment about sex/masturbation, but I'm glad I was not under that rule. That guy's story the other week was hard to hear. Must have been tough. When I was in the Seed, it was strongly suggested to me that I avoid a 'guy/girl' relationship during the first year. Makes sense to me today, as I was not mature enough to handle all the dynamics of a healthy relationship until I was about 40 :grin: . I could do the sex part, but had trouble with real intimacy and being responsible. Nothing about masturbation was mentioned to me at the Seed.[ This Message was edited by: Thom on 2005-10-22 21:42 ]
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Anonymous on October 23, 2005, 12:56:00 AM: I was also in LIFE, in the 80's, and have no complaints.
No evil tortures or cult rituals while I was there. Not a vacation either, but don't think it was meant to be pleasurable.

weird how many of you are so wrapped up in your sorted perceptions 10, 20 plus years later. Hope you can get a grip soon.

Shelly
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Thom on October 23, 2005, 01:06:00 AM: Shelly,
I can almost see them motivating now. They're going to come down on you big time for your non-conformist attitudes. :lol:
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Helena Handbasket on October 23, 2005, 03:14:00 PM: No coercion? No groupthink? No bullshit?

Shelly and Thom - if that BS worked for you, great. You're grownups now - you have the ability to choose. I only pity your children - or your influence on anyone with children - who might be subjected to the same mindfuck if you or a susceptible parent should one day find them diverging from your ideals of who they should be.

Yes, this is short and sweet - I'm returning to my regularly scheduled evacation procedures now.
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Antigen on October 23, 2005, 04:17:00 PM: Quote
On 2005-10-22 21:56:00, Anonymous wrote:

weird how many of you are so wrapped up in your sorted perceptions 10, 20 plus years later. Hope you can get a grip soon.

Funny, I was thinking exactly the same thing about you guys. Except I figgure you meant 'sordid', right?
Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake when you make it again.
Mark Twain
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Antigen on October 23, 2005, 04:20:00 PM: Helena, I used to worry about Thom's kids. I'm happy to say, though, that when it came down to it, he did NOT put them in programs.

That's the funny thing. You see how really brutally and personally he'll attack me for my criticism of Art and the Seed. But he never did get around to dropping in to say hi and thanks to good old Art, not even when he had to drive almost right by the place on the way from the airport to a highschool reunion. Though we fought bitterly, it wasn't lost on me at all that he made the trip to see us instead.

Forget what they say, watch what they do.
The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. ... All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.
--Hermann Goering, Luftwaffe commander, sentenced to death at Nuremberg
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Thom on October 23, 2005, 08:07:00 PM: Quote
On 2005-10-23 13:20:00, Antigen wrote:

"Helena, I used to worry about Thom's kids. I'm happy to say, though, that when it came down to it, he did NOT put them in programs.

They didn't need programs

That's the funny thing. You see how really brutally and personally he'll attack me for my criticism of Art and the Seed. But he never did get around to dropping in to say hi and thanks to good old Art, not even when he had to drive almost right by the place on the way from the airport to a highschool reunion.

My flight got in with just enough time to get across town to the reunion. I do regret not visiting Art and Shelly afterward. With the exception of seeing your beautiful children, it would have been a better use of my time.

Though we fought bitterly, it wasn't lost on me at all that he made the trip to see us instead.

Ginger...you fought bitterly. I just wanted to enjoy the limited time I had to visit with you to visit with you, and not dredge up old Seed/ Straight debate. When it became clear you were not capable of participating in a normal conversation with out your obsession getting in the way, and continued interogating me, I had to cut the visit short. I still worry about your kids. Mine are fine. John left for Gulfport, MS today to help with the rebuilding effort. Shannon spent the day playing with my Grand Daughter, (when I would let her have a turn) then cooked dinner for us all. Pretty normal stuff, I think.
<
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Antigen on October 23, 2005, 08:48:00 PM: Quote
On 2005-10-23 17:07:00, Thom wrote:

Ginger...you fought bitterly.

:rofl: W/E

Yeah, I know your kids never needed a program. Neither did you or I. But I also know that at least one of them met the criteria at least once. I think you're the one who told me about it, too.

I'm not fighting w/ you, Thom. I was sincerely and honestly relieved that, despite what comes out of your mouth, when it came down to it you had better sense or a higher fidelity to your kids than to the almighty dogma.

Jeeze, some people just can't take a compliment.

Helena, I hope get what I'm saying. I suspect that this is the rule, not the exception, among proud, grateful Program graduates. I got a little validation of that not long ago watching a 60 Minutes retro on China. They tracked down some people who they had interviewed 30 years ago at the height of the Maoist revolution. They also spoke w/ some of these people's grown kids and showed them the footage from the earlier report.

Basically, the old ppl were a bit embarrassed if they had bought in for real or else they just explained why they had to say those silly things for their own safety. The younger generation just couldn't believe it. They laughed a little nervously, seemed maybe a bit insulted/embarrassed.

But, at the end of the day, they really never did, as a nation and culture, buy into the brainwasing entirely, even those who thought they did at the time. They just kept a low profile and waited the old megalomaniac out, secretly teaching their kids good old fashioned Confucian philosophy.

I don't know about you, but it's been a load off my mind to see that at least this fear, of a generation of super seedlings raising kids and voting according to Program thinking has proved pretty much unfounded.

And, btw, I'm only half kidding when I say Büsh may be the most adept and successful stealth misbehaver in the history of the Program.

Never attempt to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
--Unanimous

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Helena Handbasket on October 24, 2005, 04:04:00 PM: Quote

Helena, I hope get what I'm saying. I suspect that this is the rule, not the exception, among proud, grateful Program graduates...

I get what you're saying, and it's good to know - especially when Darren from Growing Together once indicated that he would consider a similar program for his kids. Keep the science coming!

Thom, what exactly would you do then, in the event your kid(s) "met the criteria"?

I heard something interesting on the radio during my long drive today - On the Neal Boortz show:

Neal, like many Libertarians leans toward personal responsibility. What struck me was, this 32 year old guy called in about something, they discussed the issue, then at the end of the call, the guy sung the praises of Boortz.

When he first started listening to the show, he was a real loser of a high school dropout, and since then, he's attained a college degree with honors, a great job, and is now happily married with a new baby. "And I owe it all to you, Neal... you beat the snot outta me"

Boortz gladly accepted the kudos.

Why do those who preach "personal responsibility" take the credit for someone actually TAKING the responsibility??

Isn't it possible that Art isn't responsible for anything? It's your life. You did what you wanted with it. Why not pat yourself on the back if you're so happy with it?
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Thom on October 24, 2005, 04:44:00 PM: :grin:
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: GregFL on October 24, 2005, 05:37:00 PM: Quote

I understand that if I smoke, I increase the risk of cancer, heart disease, emphysema, etc. So I choose not to smoke because I don't really want those things.

Hey, now thats smart! Just how did you learn that Thom?

I mean, did someone have to lock you in a warehouse, did you have to Step your way to that knowledge, confess it to your community? Did you have to say it in a convincing fashion before you could decide when and where you would take a crap?

Or is it just common everyday knowledge that most people have, like drug abuse, and then they make a decision based on the risk/reward...absent of coersion?

And isn't this really indicitive of your post seed drug usage, that is, you ALWAYS knew there were negative ramifications to drug abuse before, during and after the seed, but yet chose to use anyway, at least before and after? Did all that singing and worshipping Art Y Co. really do anything to prevent you from abusing substances?

Isn't the problem really you Thom, and isn't the solution really you also?

The steps are worthless, unless you buy into the lie that you are pretty much worthless without them. And the steps mixed with cultic coersion is even worse...
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Thom on October 24, 2005, 05:49:00 PM: The problem was me, the solution was God.
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Antigen on October 24, 2005, 06:36:00 PM: Bro, I would not have divulged even that much info. But ok. I think you did just about exactly the right thing. I don't agree w/ all of your premises; the relative risk of middle class white ppl in your part of the country getting shaken down for personal use quantities of pot, for example, or the wisdom of stepcraft attendance. But that's what you believe, you told the kid just what you thought and left it to her to do the right thing. That's just exactly how I handle things around here.

But here's what I don't understand. You obviously knew that forced indoctrination was not an appropriate or helpful response to the situation. And yet you keep on about how wonderful the Seed was and how much it helped you? NOT saying I think you should have given her a dose of the same. Just a little puzzled over the inconsistency. My guess is that, really, you don't hold an entirely positive view of the whole thing. But I'm just guessing.

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
Douglas Adams, _Last Chance to See_
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Anonymous on October 24, 2005, 06:58:00 PM: Quote
On 2005-10-24 14:37:00, GregFL wrote:

The steps are worthless, unless you buy into the lie that you are pretty much worthless without them. And the steps mixed with cultic coersion is even worse...

"

Worthless at best, usually they are very harmful.
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Helena Handbasket on October 24, 2005, 06:59:00 PM: NA - Scientolgy
AA - Crapology (i.e.: worse than "junk science")

Penn & Teller did a show on 12-Stepcraft over a year ago... I forgot their source, but it was found that 5% of AA attendees actually stay sober. Guess what? 5% of individuals who just flat out decide to quit on their OWN stay sober. So what does AA have that you don't?

How old are your kids, Thom? If one has a beer at a party does that automatically make them an "alcoholic"? If you found a joint in your kid's pockets, would you suggest NA?
Hey... when did pot become a narcotic anyway?

As far as what you said about escapism and responsibility - they're teenagers!!!! Sturm und drang, man. They usually figure out party time has its place when they have to figure out how to pay the rent.

As Greg said - did you really need to be locked up and forced to confess your transgressions to figure it all out? Have you ever wondered how other people figured it out without the Seed / Straight / LIFE... etc?

I posted the stuff about the Boortz show becuase I wanted to hear what you had to say about that. Anything?
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Anonymous on October 24, 2005, 07:01:00 PM: The source of the statistics was AA's own 1989 Triennial Report. Even they know their program is bullshit, they just keep looking for suckers that buy into it anyway. That's because the cult isn't about "recovery" or dealing with addiction in an effective way, the cult is only about it's own growth, not unlike a cancer cell.
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Thom on October 24, 2005, 07:26:00 PM
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Thom on October 24, 2005, 07:30:00 PM: Quote
On 2005-10-24 16:01:00, Anonymous wrote:

"The source of the statistics was AA's own 1989 Triennial Report. Even they know their program is bullshit, they just keep looking for suckers that buy into it anyway. That's because the cult isn't about "recovery" or dealing with addiction in an effective way, the cult is only about it's own growth, not unlike a cancer cell."

Can you name the leader of the AA 'cult'?
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Helena Handbasket on October 24, 2005, 07:35:00 PM: Quote
On 2005-10-24 16:30:00, Thom wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-10-24 16:01:00, Anonymous wrote:

"The source of the statistics was AA's own 1989 Triennial Report. Even they know their program is bullshit, they just keep looking for suckers that buy into it anyway. That's because the cult isn't about "recovery" or dealing with addiction in an effective way, the cult is only about it's own growth, not unlike a cancer cell."

Can you name the leader of the AA 'cult'?"

Bob Smith and Bill Wilson... sounds like a couple of aliases to me! :grin:
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Anonymous on October 24, 2005, 07:36:00 PM: Quote
On 2005-10-24 16:30:00, Thom wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-10-24 16:01:00, Anonymous wrote:

"The source of the statistics was AA's own 1989 Triennial Report. Even they know their program is bullshit, they just keep looking for suckers that buy into it anyway. That's because the cult isn't about "recovery" or dealing with addiction in an effective way, the cult is only about it's own growth, not unlike a cancer cell."

Can you name the leader of the AA 'cult'?"

Yes, can you?
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Antigen on October 24, 2005, 07:36:00 PM: Can you name the leader of the Christian cult? Or any other, for that matter. Islam, Judaism, any of them.

Point is a cult doesn't have to have a living, breathing, human leader like Art was. Cults can form around just about any ideology. It's all about the recruiting and control methods, the deceptions, the inequity of power and volition.

You never see animals going through the absurd and often horrible fooleries of magic and religion. Only man behaves with such gratuitous folly. It is the price he has to pay for being intelligent but not, as yet, intelligent enough.
--Aldous Huxley, author
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Antigen on October 24, 2005, 07:56:00 PM: Wow, Thom, I didn't know all that. I wonder if dad would be more outraged or more amused to know that he raised a pack of nigger lovers. :rofl: Toward the end there, I think he was starting to get it.

But I'm calling bullshit on the point of coercion. The Seed reeked of it. You never ran up against the wall because you never tried to escape. But you damned sure knew it was going on; what would happen to you if you DID try to bolt from the group room or a foster home or school... whatever. You may have agreed to sign yourself in and comply w/ the program, but you were only 14 and had been convinced by some very adept scammers that you'd die otherwise. That's not exactly voluntary by the strict (or, for that matter, legal) definition.

I did the same thing for slightly different reasons. They said they could get a court order mandating a 2 year stay. I believed them. But it was true. Not that they had anything close to a legitimate reason for a court order. But I knew they had friends in high places and I figured I could either bullshit my way through or split quicker than 2 years.

Anyway, I believe that you believe your view of things. It's a funny thing that happens w/ any idiology based group. Sometimes, the recruiting and PR spin on the group's task takes on a life of it's own and changes the task, especially when there's sustained and fairly fast growth and a lot of turnover (high ratio of new blood). It's just the same w/ the Judeo/Christian traditions. Most Bible/Torah believing people no longer support death by stoning for adulteresses. The new blood has sort of tweaked the mission a bit. Sometimes, it's for the good.

Just please don't start lobbing bomb laden virgins at me for speaking frankly. :rofl:

Necessity is the excuse for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of the tyrant and the creed of the slave.
-- William Pitt, 1763
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Antigen on October 24, 2005, 08:15:00 PM: One other thing, bro. Not to be a prig, but in all honesty how has your belief system about drugs, addiction and proper handling of them worked out for you? I never bought into the stepcraft version, at least not for long after I quit believing in Santa Clause. And I never did have any big problem w/ substances. You bought in, hook, line and sinker and DID have big problems w/ drugs and compulsive behavior.

And, as I read up and talk to a lot of varied people, it seems to me that's no coincidence. It's not that complicated, really. I just took Dad's view of things. Drunk or sober, you're still the one and only one responsible for whatever damned fool thing you may do. If excessive drinking is causing you to do foolish things, just quit going to the beer store so much.

Really simple. I believe it's all within my power while you believe you're powerless over a beguiling, trecherous entity. And I honestly think you'd have fared much better if you'd identified the voice of that staffer in your head and taken the habit of telling him to have a seat.

Do you support drug prohibition because it finances criminals at home or because it finances terrorists abroad?
--Anonymous

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Jeannine on October 24, 2005, 08:43:00 PM: I agree with you Thom. That is the one thing that stayed with me after I "7 stepped"! I couldn't get high or drunk any more as a non lifer. I knew everytime I went out to drink that I was going to get drunk. Not just to "social" drink. It was always in the back of my mind knowing I couldn't B.S. myself. A lot of other things left a bad taste in my mouth then and now. I do believe we were and are now guinia pigs in the adolescent substance abuse field of psychiatry. We should not have been left to fend for ourselves in that program while being observed behind mirrored glass.
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Antigen on October 24, 2005, 08:55:00 PM: You had mirrored glass? Or are you speaking figuratively?

Anyway, belief is an incredibly potent thing. I never believed that I would spiral out of control, and so I never did. I have drunk to excess before or waken up realizing that I can't decide whether I can drive once I've had a few. But never have I had a problem simply cutting down or laying down ground rules for myself if my drinking was causing an actual problem to me.

Now, the schizm in my family has been problematic. My family basically condemned me as a hopeless addict because I won't buy into the Program line. Or maybe they've been waiting patiently for over 20 years now for me to finally lose control. How damned long does this stuff take to start working, anyway?

But it's not my problem.

Point is, if you had not believed that one drink would set you on an inexorable path to an undignified early death, it probably wouldn't have.
Nothing of value to the individual happens by coercion.

--Plato
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Thom on October 24, 2005, 10:51:00 PM: Quote
On 2005-10-24 17:55:00, Antigen wrote:

"
Now, the schizm in my family has been problematic. My family basically condemned me as a hopeless addict because I won't buy into the Program line. Or maybe they've been waiting patiently for over 20 years now for me to finally lose control. How damned long does this stuff take to start working, anyway?

But it's not my problem.

Ginger, I hate to break this to you, but the reason no one in our family makes an effort to communicate with you (besides me, for some strange reason) is that you choose to be obnoxious and antagonistic, and they have more self respect than to believe they have to tolerate that just because of the blood line thing. The factions in the 'schism' are you vs everyone else in the family. It doesn't even qualify, as the definition of a schism is, 'An exclusive circle of people with a common purpose' (unless the rest of your circle is the staff members in your head). I've never heard anyone refer to you as an addict, hopeless or otherwise, and ironically, I'm the most active program person (practitioner of Stepcraft) in the family, yet I respect your right and your choice to believe it's an evil scheme. (Maybe I need to be started over.)
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Anonymous on October 25, 2005, 12:23:00 AM: Maybe she's just got the guts to tell the truth. The fact that you're so deeply involved in XA has somthing to do with that. I've had many conversations with Ginger and she seems like one of the well-adjusted people on here.
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Thom on October 25, 2005, 01:35:00 AM: Quote
On 2005-10-24 21:23:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Maybe she's just got the guts to tell the truth. The fact that you're so deeply involved in XA has somthing to do with that. I've had many conversations with Ginger and she seems like one of the well-adjusted people on here. "

If your perception is that she is telling the truth, then it naturally follows that she seems like one of the (most?) well adjusted people on here to you. By her own admission, she is an accomplished 'seemer'
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Thom on October 25, 2005, 05:02:00 AM: Quote
On 2005-10-24 17:55:00, Antigen wrote:

"Point is, if you had not believed that one drink would set you on an inexorable path to an undignified early death, it probably wouldn't have."

It obviously didn't.

So, like, you think the whole powerless thing is a myth? Remember that concept next time you feel a diarrhea attack coming on. Try: If I will it away, it won't happen. Or, if I make less trips to the toilet I'll be OK.

Ever puke from drinking? If so, did you ever drink again? If so, why?
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Antigen on October 25, 2005, 11:56:00 AM: No, Thom. It's just that I don't eat shit. Not from anybody. Sure, when held captive by a few hundred violent lunatics, I can pretend almost anything to avoid conflict. But it's different with you guys. I can walk away and I don't want anything less than an authentic relationship. So there's no need for pretense.

I might have bought your line, too, that it's all me. Except that Bill's been around and he's an extremely good listener. I may be a little too deaf to hear just what you were saying till I walked into the room. But Bill's not. Bro, you have no idea how close you came to having your nose rearranged in Atlanta. He never did tell me what the joke was that he'd found so offensive. Just that it was time to go, NOW!

Quote
I've never heard anyone refer to you as an addict, hopeless or otherwise, and ironically,...

Bullshit. At Grandma's funeral, every time anybody asked where I was, you quipped "probably off smoking crack". Or did Babe just make that up? That old Babe, always playing tricks, huh? :roll:

But you seem to think I'm supposed to just lay down and take whatever kind of insulting, cruel bullshit you hand down. And if I don't, why then I'm being obnoxious and ungrateful! God, I almost fell out of my chair laughing when Loie suggested I should settle my whole problem w/ that real estate transaction just by being more grateful.

How's that $32,000 tools shed coming along, btw?
Never in the history of any nation has an education system been so on the point of disintegration and decay as the education system in this country...We know that education in this country is as bad as it can be. We know that it is old-fashioned, irrelevant, and not meaningful.
--U.S. Senator Abraham A. Ribicoff, 1970
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Antigen on October 25, 2005, 12:03:00 PM: Quote
On 2005-10-25 02:02:00, Thom wrote:

So, like, you think the whole powerless thing is a myth?

Yes.

Quote
Remember that concept next time you feel a diarrhea attack coming on. Try: If I will it away, it won't happen. Or, if I make less trips to the toilet I'll be OK.

Well, diarrhea is different. It's actually a physical mallady. It's not a choice. Sometimes the cause can be volitional. Say, if ever time you eat at Wendy's you get the trotts, then you have a choice; don't eat at Wendy's.

Quote

Ever puke from drinking? If so, did you ever drink again? If so, why?"

Cause it's fun! LOL! And, much to your chagrin, I'm sure, I learned to moderate my drinking so that I don't wind up calling Earl in Europe.

How come it's OK for Kathi and Jim to get trashed on their birthday, but if I pick up a beer, everyone starts whispering? I mean, I've never been so foolish as to get very drunk around you guys. That's another rule of thumb of mine; never, ever get drunk to the point of being vulnerable around people you can't trust!
Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change.
--Anonymous
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Helena Handbasket on October 25, 2005, 02:26:00 PM: Quote
On 2005-10-25 02:02:00, Thom wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-10-24 17:55:00, Antigen wrote:

"Point is, if you had not believed that one drink would set you on an inexorable path to an undignified early death, it probably wouldn't have."

It obviously didn't.

So, like, you think the whole powerless thing is a myth? Remember that concept next time you feel a diarrhea attack coming on. Try: If I will it away, it won't happen. Or, if I make less trips to the toilet I'll be OK.

Ever puke from drinking? If so, did you ever drink again? If so, why?"

You don't choose to have diarrhea unless you eat or drink something that you know will cause diarrhea. So in most cases, you avoid that stuff. If I know Taco Bell gives me the squits, I avoid the place. I'm not powerless over Taco Bell.

Going back to booze - if ya know that if you have three drinks, You'll be utterly blotto, and wake up feeling like shit, then drink one or two.

Yes, I know that a buzz makes you feel really good and invincible - but when you're over thirty (maybe twenty-five) - and you've experienced waking up naked in strange places a few times, you know you limits, and you stay within them.

"Powerlessness" is bullshit. Here's one for you: you choose to be powerless!

So you choose to put your power into a dude who tells you you're powerless? Whose power are you under now?

_________________
Where are we going, and what are we doing in this handbasket??[ This Message was edited by: Helena Handbasket on 2005-10-25 11:28 ]
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Anonymous on October 25, 2005, 03:09:00 PM: http://orange-papers.org/orange-cult_a0.html (http://orange-papers.org/orange-cult_a0.html)

http://orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q0.html (http://orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q0.html)

1. The Guru is always right.
2. You are always wrong.
3. No Exit.
4. No Graduates.
5. Cult-speak.
6. Group-think, Suppression of Dissent, and Enforced Conformity in Thinking
7. Irrationality.
8. Suspension of disbelief.
9. Denigration of competing sects, cults, religions...
10. Personal attacks on critics.
11. Insistence that the cult is THE ONLY WAY.
12. The cult and its members are special.
13. Induction of guilt, and the use of guilt to manipulate cult members.
14. Unquestionable Dogma, Sacred Science, and Infallible Ideology.
15. Indoctrination of members.
16. Appeals to "holy" or "wise" authorities.
17. Instant Community.
18. Instant Intimacy.
19. Surrender To The Cult.
20. Giggly wonderfulness and starry-eyed faith.
21. Personal testimonies of earlier converts.
22. The cult is self-absorbed.
23. Dual Purposes, Hidden Agendas, and Ulterior Motives.
24. Aggressive Recruiting.
25. Deceptive Recruiting.
26. No Humor.
27. You Can't Tell The Truth.
28. Cloning -- You become a clone of the cult leader or other elder cult members.
29. You must change your beliefs to conform to the group's beliefs.
30. The End Justifies The Means.
31. Dishonesty, Deceit, Denial, Falsification, and Rewriting History.
32. Different Levels of Truth.
33. Newcomers can't think right.
34. The Cult Implants Phobias.
35. The Cult is Money-Grubbing.
36. Confession Sessions.
37. A System of Punishments and Rewards.
38. An Impossible Superhuman Model of Perfection.
39. Mentoring.
40. Intrusiveness.
41. Disturbed Guru, Mentally Ill Leader.
42. Disturbed Members, Mentally Ill Followers.
43. Create a sense of powerlessness, covert fear, guilt, and dependency.
44. Dispensed existence
45. Ideology Over Experience, Observation, and Logic
46. Keep them unaware that there is an agenda to change them
47. Thought-Stopping Language. Thought-terminating clichés and slogans.
48. Mystical Manipulation
49. The guru or the group demands ultra-loyalty and total committment.
50. Demands for Total Faith and Total Trust
51. Members Get No Respect. They Get Abused.
52. Inconsistency. Contradictory Messages
53. Hierarchical, Authoritarian Power Structure, and Social Castes
54. Front groups, masquerading recruiters, hidden promoters, and disguised propagandists
55. Belief equals truth
56. Use of double-binds
57. The cult leader is not held accountable for his actions.
58. Everybody else needs the guru to boss him around, but nobody bosses the guru around.
59. The guru criticizes everybody else, but nobody criticizes the guru.
60. Dispensed truth and social definition of reality
61. The Guru Is Extra-Special.
62. Flexible, shifting morality
63. Separatism
64. Inability to tolerate criticism
65. A Charismatic Leader
66. Calls to Obliterate Self
67. Don't Trust Your Own Mind.
68. Don't Feel Your Feelings.
69. The cult takes over the individual's decision-making process.
70. You Owe The Group.
71. We Have The Panacea.
72. Progressive Indoctrination and Progressive Commitments
73. Magical, Mystical, Unexplainable Workings
74. Trance-Inducing Practices
75. New Identity -- Redefinition of Self -- Revision of Personal History
76. Membership Rivalry
77. True Believers
78. Scapegoating and Excommunication
79. Promised Powers or Knowledge
80. It's a con. You don't get the promised goodies.
81. Hypocrisy
82. Denial of the truth. Reversal of reality. Rationalization and Denial.
83. Seeing Through Tinted Lenses
84. You can't make it without the cult.
85. Enemy-making and Devaluing the Outsider
86. The cult wants to own you.
87. Channelling or other occult, unchallengeable, sources of information.
88. They Make You Dependent On The Group.
89. Demands For Compliance With The Group
90. Newcomers Need Fixing.
91. Use of the Cognitive Dissonance Technique.
92. Grandiose existence. Bombastic, Grandiose Claims.
93. Black And White Thinking
94. The use of heavy-duty mind control and rapid conversion techniques.
95. Threats of bodily harm or death to someone who leaves the cult.
96. Threats of bodily harm or death to someone who criticizes the cult.
97. Appropriation of all of the members' worldly wealth.
98. Making cult members work long hours for free.
99. Total immersion and total isolation.
100. Mass suicide.
Bibliography

To go back and forth between the questions and the answers for Alcoholics Anonymous, click on the numbers of the questions and answers.
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Anonymous on October 25, 2005, 03:11:00 PM: http://orange-papers.org/orange-powerless.html (http://orange-papers.org/orange-powerless.html)
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Anonymous on October 25, 2005, 03:19:00 PM: http://orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html (http://orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html)

Nothing could be further from the truth. Even the most ardent true believers who will be honest about it recognize that A.A. and N.A. have at least 90% failure rates. And the real numbers are more like 95% or 98% or 100% failure rates. It depends on who is doing the counting, how they are counting, and what they are counting or measuring.

A 5% success rate is nothing more than the rate of spontaneous remission in alcoholics and drug addicts. That is, out of any given group of alcoholics or drug addicts, approximately 5% per year will just wise up, and quit killing themselves.6 They just get sick and tired of being sick and tired, and of watching their friends die. (And something between 1% and 3% of their friends do die annually, so that is a big incentive.) They often quit with little or no official treatment or help. Some actually detox themselves on their own couches, or in their own beds, or locked in their own closets. Often, they don't go to a lot of meetings. They just quit, all on their own, or with the help of a couple of good friends who keep them locked up for a few days while they go through withdrawal. A.A. and N.A. true believers insist that addicts can't successfully quit that way, but they do, every day.
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Anonymous on October 25, 2005, 03:21:00 PM: "
Quote

On 2005-10-24 17:55:00, Antigen wrote:

"Point is, if you had not believed that one drink would set you on an inexorable path to an undignified early death, it probably wouldn't have."

:nworthy: :nworthy:
<
Quote

So, like, you think the whole powerless thing is a myth? Remember that concept next time you feel a diarrhea attack coming on. Try: If I will it away, it won't happen. Or, if I make less trips to the toilet I'll be OK.

Dude, you just blew any credibility you had with that statement.
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Napolean Bonafart on October 26, 2005, 08:13:00 AM: Bottoming out and a good doctor is all anyone needs to want to quit. Once you bottom out. Things are different. It's like a mid-life crisis choice. I choose to not drink, but I take medicine.
Give me the youth, and Germany will rule the world.
--Hitler
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Napolean Bonafart on October 26, 2005, 08:13:00 AM: Bottoming out and a good doctor is all anyone needs to want to quit. Once you bottom out. Things are different. It's like a mid-life crisis choice. I choose to not drink, but I take medicine.
Faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction- faith in fiction is a damnable false hope.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor

_________________
"thank you peanut gallery"
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Anonymous on October 26, 2005, 06:30:00 PM: Quote
On 2005-10-25 02:02:00, Thom wrote:

Ever puke from drinking? If so, did you ever drink again? If so, why?"

Ever puke from eating? If so, why did you ever eat again? Maybe you are an Overeater, Thom. Remember, complete abstinance is the only way.
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Antigen on October 26, 2005, 09:52:00 PM: If you go hiking and get sore muscles, would you abstain from walking?
Nothing of value to the individual happens by coercion.

--Plato
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Anonymous on November 24, 2005, 11:34:00 AM: Quote
On 2005-02-12 19:55:00, 90's Guy wrote:

"Did u guys know that Peterman was a Seed volunteer Mom in the early 70's. That is where she started. She then started working at Straight, but all the ideas came from The Seed. That is where I went to The Seed. The ideas at Growing Together and Life were not from Straight. They were from The Seed, who originated the whole concept, even Moral Inventories."

This is true. Have to laugh thinking back to her response when kids would FLICK her off. NO, she didn't man-handle, slap or pull their hair. She would simply smile and say "Well at least it's out of your ass and in the air!
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Helena Handbasket on November 24, 2005, 11:37:00 AM: Quote
On 2005-11-24 08:34:00, Anonymous wrote:

This is true. Have to laugh thinking back to her response when kids would FLICK her off. NO, she didn't man-handle, slap or pull their hair. She would simply smile and say "Well at least it's out of your ass and in the air!"

Have I missed something, or is there some signifigance of having your finger in your ass - aside from just being gross?
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Anonymous on November 24, 2005, 02:53:00 PM: Quote
On 2005-11-24 08:37:00, Helena Handbasket wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-11-24 08:34:00, Anonymous wrote:

This is true. Have to laugh thinking back to her response when kids would FLICK her off. NO, she didn't man-handle, slap or pull their hair. She would simply smile and say "Well at least it's out of your ass and in the air!"

Have I missed something, or is there some signifigance of having your finger in your ass - aside from just being gross?"

Yes, Helena. You seem to miss quite a bit. But that's ok. We understand.
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Helena Handbasket on November 24, 2005, 08:28:00 PM: Quote
Yes, Helena. You seem to miss quite a bit. But that's ok. We understand."

Ah, ambiguity at it's finest. Care to specify exactly all the things you think I've missed, brainiacs?
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Anonymous on December 09, 2005, 03:02:00 AM: Quote
On 2005-02-12 19:55:00, 90's Guy wrote:

"Did u guys know that Peterman was a Seed volunteer Mom in the early 70's. That is where she started. She then started working at Straight, but all the ideas came from The Seed. That is where I went to The Seed. The ideas at Growing Together and Life were not from Straight. They were from The Seed, who originated the whole concept, even Moral Inventories."

BUT,
Helen "Miss Pete" Petermann WORKED AT STRAIGHT BEFORE OPENING THE "Life Is For Everyone-L.I.F.E. PROGRAM" in Sarasota/Osprey Florida.
I will beat the shit out of that cunt if I EVER see her,regardless of her age or physical condition!
Title: The Origin of All this was The Seed
Post by: Anonymous on December 09, 2005, 09:59:00 PM: Quote
On 2005-12-09 00:02:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-02-12 19:55:00, 90's Guy wrote:

"Did u guys know that Peterman was a Seed volunteer Mom in the early 70's. That is where she started. She then started working at Straight, but all the ideas came from The Seed. That is where I went to The Seed. The ideas at Growing Together and Life were not from Straight. They were from The Seed, who originated the whole concept, even Moral Inventories."

BUT,

Helen "Miss Pete" Petermann WORKED AT STRAIGHT BEFORE OPENING THE "Life Is For Everyone-L.I.F.E. PROGRAM" in Sarasota/Osprey Florida.

I will beat the shit out of that cunt if I EVER see her,regardless of her age or physical condition!"

My my, sounds like you're a grown, well-adjusted adult now. Congrats. :wave: