Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: John Underwood on August 10, 2005, 02:52:00 PM
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Toooooooooooooooooo much. Reading the responses, not just to the post I made, but in most, I do find a consistent, persistent theme, ...a commonality, ...your bond. Me, me, me, me, me, ...I, I, I, I, I , ...I was subjected to..., this happened to me..., ad nauseam.
Though for each of you, The Seed was a personal experience, here?s a newsflash, you weren?t the only ones there.
Why so much attention to self? Where you unaware of the presence of others? Where you (are you) so totally self-absorbed that empathy, compassion for those who were grateful and were being helped is of little or no significance to you?
Did your parents bring you to the program because of your angelic, exemplary behavior?
Or do you just lack the capacity see the positive and the good because in your minds it somehow infringed on you?, (i.e., mommy and daddy didn?t let me have things my way) Too bad, grow up.
Nowhere, I repeat, nowhere in your posts have I been able to find references to, ...oh, yeah, I remember this person was so messed up and I was able to help him/her by..., ...wasn?t it great when this person asked me for help and I was able to..., etc. You get the point. NOWHERE!
If this doesn?t tell you something about yourselves or if your first urge is to rebut rather than reflect, then yes, I repeat, you did not get it!
As for the insinuations of the horrors (lol) Stalinist techniques, mind control, deprivation, and humilation, I can only tell you that I spent the first 8 years of academic life at Our Lady of Lourdes Grammar School. The Seed was like a Hawaiian vacation after that. If you think Art or Lybbi were tyrannical, adept at the practice of badgering or intimidation, I only wish you would have known Sister Cecilia. One particularly nasty scar that resulted from her handywork remains prominent on my right hand to this day. Does this mean I should advocate the closing of parochial schools? Does this mean the experience had no positive value? Does this mean I should harbor resentment? Does this mean I should start a web site designed to advocate elementary student rights?
We don?t live in a perfect world or society, nor do we evolve beyond the condition human. Deny it if you like, but every negative post I?ve read here is either based in the expectation of perfection, (yet disguised in intellectualism, supported by ambiguous philosophy and ideology), the product of those unfortunates who still seek pleasure from disparaging others, or those who have become addicted to mental masturbation.
Though I do feel for some of you, individually, this in no way negates or diminishes the joy I still feel for those went on to lead happy and rewarding lives, rather than death or incarceration, because of The Seed. If some you experienced suffering in your teenage years, who doesn?t?
Bitterness, resentment, anger, hostility, self-pity, et al are not independent entities that possess you. These are choices you make. It?s what you did with the feelings, after the fact, that has created the negativity you experience today, and for that, you and no one but you is responsible.
This isn?t unique, your not unique.
Pseudo-intellectualism, victim mentalities, advocates of rights without responsibilities, the myopic pursuit of pettiness disguised as righteousness, and, as stated, me, me, me, me, me, are formidable cancers that are eroding our country, our world today.
For many here, truth seems to be an abstract concept. For others, their regard and esteem for the truth seems to be directly correlated to how much and how well they can use it as a weapon.
I leave with little doubt that responses to this post will make this point more effectively than anything I could possibly say.
P.S. ...and lawyers liars,...geez, ...whodda ever thunka dat?
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Why so much attention to self? Where you unaware of the presence of others? Where you (are you) so totally self-absorbed that empathy, compassion for those who were grateful and were being helped is of little or no significance to you?
Did your parents bring you to the program because of your angelic, exemplary behavior?
I can only speak from my own experience. You, evidently, never noticed the harm you and your grand ideal did to so many families.
Yes, actually, I was rather an angelic kid to begin with. My parents put all three of my brothers and one sister in The Seed because they believed your lies. The shit that went down afterward in Straight was also a direct response to you projecting your junkiedome onto us kids who may (or may not, in many cases) have smoked a little pot.
You (Seed staff, of which you were nearly the top dog) advised my mother to kick my brother and my father out of the house and family. Why? Because they were not supportive of the program. Do you think that was good advise? Do you think follwing that advise was without unintended consequences? Or, worse, was it your intention to break up my family?
I know there are plenty of other families similarly affected by your lies. We hear from them quite often around here. I won't speak for the, though. They can speak for themselves.
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P.S. At which Hawaiian resort do they put a toilet seat around your neck and then direct the other guests to publicly humilate you?
When Plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in a society, they create for themselves in the course of time, a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.
--Fredric Bastiat
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Thanks for your response.
As for me..here is how I see it
The Seed experience was individual. IE: It was about Me and my family and the circle of people that I have kept in touch with and now the people I have reconnected with here. It wasn't about you, some other Junkie who feels he was "saved", not about how the softshoeing little arrogant fool ended up or how many houses Libby bought and sold over the years. Sorry if that offends your sensibilities. To bury your head and proclaim "all is well because this or that junkie now leads a productive life" Diminishes the truth about what happened to people that were harmed there (mostly little children).
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Quote: Did your parents bring you to the program for your angelic, exemplary behavior?
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No, they did it because they were convinced by a cultish group of mislead St. Pete parents and the mood of the times that a little truancy and pot smoking would result in "death, insanity, or Jail". An erroneous conclusion if ever there was one.
This comment made by you, this attempt at shifting the blame of the abuse onto the abused, is more telling of your selfish self-centered view of the realities of what occured. Do you deny the techniques used? Do you even understand them? At this point I have my doubts. You have the intelligence and knowledge to take a real hard look here john, but instead up till now you have buried YOUR head in the sand and proclaim it was all an innocent attempt to get kids straight. The techniques used at the seed were oppressive and dangerous and hurt children.
Your posts indicate you are naive about this my friend. You sould make an attempt to really understand those that carried problems from being inprisoned and "fixed" by the seed and go a step further and explore why and what harmed them. We all weren't jailed junkies in need of severe incarceration, behavior modification and alienation from our families and peer groups....just because you may have been. Hell, I was a pre-pubescent little kid, removed from my family and forced into very inappropriate situations, many of which were directed and overseen by you personally.
For this I harbor zero bad feelings toward you, but Telling 50 year old people here to grow up when they have been gracis enough to come here and tell their story is insensitive and a thought stopping exercise on your behalf.
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Nowhere, I repeat, nowhere in your posts have I been able to find references to, ...oh, yeah, I remember this person was so messed up and I was able to help him/her by..., ...wasn?t it great when this person asked me for help and I was able to..., etc. You get the point. NOWHERE!
If this doesn?t tell you something about yourselves or if your first urge is to rebut rather than reflect, then yes, I repeat, you did not get it!
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The stories are here John. There are pro seed people that post here all the time. There are acknowledgements from the most ardent anti seed people that certain people benefited from being there. THAT DOES NOT NEGATE WHAT THE SEED WAS OR WHAT HAPPENED. Jeeus, please explain why YOU feel the need to INSULT everyone who posts here and why you are so sure that the "peer therapy" as practiced by the seed did more good than harm? I suggest to you that 15 year old fucked up kids "counseling" other kids being held against their will is a recipe for disaster, that telling children when they Think that they are "into their head" is orwellian, and that holding the love and companionship of their family over their head until they "change" is downright cruel.
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As for the insinuations of the horrors (lol) Stalinist techniques, mind control, deprivation, and humilation, I can only tell you that I spent the first 8 years of academic life at Our Lady of Lourdes Grammar School.
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That is such a weak diversionary tactic, your attempt to belittle those that suffered at the hands of the seed, lost family, were incarcerated and lied to, by comparing it to your grammer school teacher. You should be ashamed. I may point out that had I entered the seed at 22, none of those tactics you and others "helped" me when I was 14 would have worked. NONE. I wouldn't have been intimidated and I would have gladly got up and walked out the door, with not one of you being physically able to stop me. But All this intimidating, threatening, locking people up and throwing them to the floor when they tried to leave and so forth on 12 to 14 year olds? Threatening of jail and court orders for non complaince? Watching little kids shit until they earn the right to shit alone? Refusing to allow anyone a phone call or to even look at a billboard on the road? Who the fuck gave you the authority and omniscience to decide what goes on in someone else's head or what this person reads or thinks? Surely you cannot be proud of that now John? Please tell me you have come to terms with this aspect of the program.
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Though I do feel for some of you, individually, this in no way negates or diminishes the joy I still feel for those went on to lead happy and rewarding lives, rather than death or incarceration, because of The Seed. If some you experienced suffering in your teenage years, who doesn?t?
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Who specifically are you speaking of? Please don't feel sorry for anyone here. No one is asking for it, needs it, or even desires it. Most everyone here is living the dream as far as I can tell...good jobs and good people to my best estimation.
chanting the death insane or injail mantra after all these years?
Com'n!!!! That shit is just silly John. You don't have a crystal ball nor either do I. You cannot justify the abuses endured by little children by saying you and others "saved lives". Many a seed graduate now sits in jail, has killed themselves, or is currently strung out on dope. If the seed experience Defines your future as you seem to indicate, then be intellectually honest and Indict the seed for what those people have become. Otherwise this is pure fantasy...and you are smart enough to know that.
Why don't you try something here John. Instead of posting not to well diquised "come downs" on the people here, why don't you just try to answer some questions, deny or admit the allegation against you by Fuelaw, and otherwise participate without trying to set yourself apart from us. You may have built a story about your heroic service in the Seed, but I don't think most people see it that way.
No mind John, I respect you immensely today but none of it is based on your "service" back in 73/74 but instead based on your willingness to come here and discuss. That to me means everything and I hope you understand my disagreements do not negate the respect you have earned by coming here and participating in the forum.
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Greg he doesn't deny allegations because he knows they are true. I brought up the three year old post the other day to prove a point. The point being that I made the allegations in response to a question posed by you when I first posted on this site. More importantly another person, who was there at the time, confirmed the incident nearly thirty years after it occurred.
Furthermore, as you know Greg, when I allowed by name ect.. to be used by the reporter who was working on a free lance story to confront Robert Chun with the allegations he conceded that kids were sometimes beaten in the Seed and they he may have administered the beatings. I am certainly don't lay claim to being the only one , I am one of many.
I note, with interest, that rather than deny my allegations he dismissed them as lawyers are liars. If I am a liar it is not because I am lawyer. It appears to be than Mr. Underwood is simply trying to rationalize or minimize his own behavior and role in the Seed. He also seems to think he is still the rap leader by controling the conversation and going on these rants and raves about Catholic schools ec...
As far as the me, me me or I, I, I commnet , let me just say this surving ther Seed or one of it's spin offs was purely a personal experience. Each one of us have dealt with it differently. But when we post about it we can only relate our own experiences not everyone elses. The original reason I posted on this site, and read others post, was just to confirm to others what I has went through and to see what others went through and how they dealt with it over time.
By the way John Underwood is a disgraceful human being !
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I do find a consistent, persistent theme, ...a commonality, ...your bond. Me, me, me, me, me, ...I, I, I, I, I , ...I was subjected to..., this happened to me..., ad nauseam.
One of the things I learned very early on in the Seed was Talk about Yourself, you, you, (ie,me) (me)(me) I don't find it unusual at all that in my postings I would only talk about my experiences & my frame of reference, it is after all the only thing that I really can speak about with any certainty isn't it? I actually would find it rather odd if people posted about others? Wouldn't most?
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of course unless you were just struggling to find fault with a website that is at odds with the lies you have been telling yourself for the last 33 years.
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I was envolved with the Seed for over 30 yrs. I never once saw anyone beaten or hit. I guess anything is possible but I never saw it. In fact if anyone ever slightly hinted violence it was quickly stopped. I myself have been known to have a quick temper but I've also been told I'm a kind and gentle person. Actually remembering back now I did hit a close friend once. He was working on his car had greese all over his hands. We were the best of friends, but he Fu--ed with me trying to put greese on my face. I told him I woud hit him if he did it. He did and I hit him. I remember a couple tears rolled down his face. I told him what did you expect me to do? We were still friends for years after. We workrd it out. We were in our early twenties.
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I don't think there ever was a culture of beating kids at the seed.
I do think, and did observe, staff getting very angry at misbehaviors and then things getting out of control. I remember escapees being sent home with bigger kids, stood up and dared to try to run...this was implied violence. (I also remember them running from the big guys after the threat :grin: )
I did observe,and even shamfully participate in, kids getting roughed up that tried to escape the St Pete Seed.
I have knowledge of the staff in St Pete threatening the group with, and then following thru with the threat to bring the parents of misbehaviors into the back rooms and hit their kids at the direction of the staff. The sound did waver into the group and a song was ordered to cover it up...I was there and it later made the press...regardless of any denials by former staff. A girl did come back to the group with a black eye after an encounter in the back room with the staff and her parents. These incidents were TERRIFYING when I was 14. I also remember this practice ending pretty quickly after it began. Whos grand idea was this? Why did it stop so suddenly? Did Art have knowledge of it? IF so, did he order it stopped?
These are realities. Whether you or anyone else remember or even know about this stuff it did occur.
There are other first hand reports about things getting out of control at oldcomers houses even bordering on the perverse (big frank getting his bare ass spanked for "acting like a baby" at 13 by an older boy).
There are stories about misbehaviors being locked in the back rooms a la isolation room "therapy".
There is an account of a girl, kidnapped from school by rabid seed parents, thrown in a car and injured..this was witnessed by students and teachers at the school and the mother stated in the press these parents volunteered and claimed her daughter would be "dead insane or in jail" if they didn't comply. She pulled her and Art issued a statement that the seed doesn't condone such activities. IF that happened in this day and age, that parents responsible would have gone to prison.
All kinds of things happened at the seed and rarely were they spoke of.
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John,
Against your better judgement! Indeed, I am surprised to see you posting again here. I didn't think it would happen. I am very glad to see it. Your original post opened a small flood of responses, from all different angles. And as far as I am concerned, that is a good thing.
My response to you would be: yes, the Seed held some positive elements for me. No doubt. I really tried to love the people I was with and be the best person I could be. I learned from that. Some of my high school friends did die, go insane, and end up in jail. Some of them went on to have great jobs, families, etc. The Seed pulled me out of my life, gave me an alternative, and set me on a different path. In some ways, it may have been better than the path I was on; in other ways, it was a very narrow path and I did not have the freedom to venture from it at all.
I came out of a very disfunctional family - my family had problems with depression, alcohol, anger. My parents had divorced, a family friend had been murdered. I was looking for support and an alternative, and checked myself into the seed voluntarily, following my brother who went in with a bit more coercion. When I left the Seed, I had to face all of the issues that leaving my family had left unresolved. I was an extemely loyal 'Seedling' for almost a decade. I left with nothing - no friends followed or enquired about me, I had no career, no education - I had some twisted ideas of what it meant to be a good person (everyone is a druggie!) along with some history of making close friends - with guys only of course. Reintegrating with society and family, enrolling in school, getting a job, a girlfriend, etc. was all very exciting and scary too. I also had my family and personal demons to work on - anxiety, phobias, depression, obsession, the temptation of substance use/abuse - the Seed had really not equipped me to deal with these things, beyond exorting myself to 'get out of my head.' I needed some things that the Seed had never supplied, and had even denied me. I had to find to set my own moral compass.
As far as helping other people - hey, I had newcomers. I tried to help them, given what I knew from my seed training. Did I? Did it do good? Perhaps one will post here at some point and I will know. I do know that now, as a socially, politically, intellectually engaged person, I try to do well - I volunteer, I work for a progressive non-profit, I have a wife and a child, we recycle! etc. I try to live a good life. The seed experience was a part of that, but I have a very different direction from what 'Seed straight' was.
When I look at our society - drug addiction, misery, and crime - I know that we are lacking something. Families are still sending their kids to AA or Seed-type programs. Personally, I hope my daughter never needs to leave her family to get what she needs. I suppose there are worse things that could happen to a person than being locked (mentally) in a warehouse for 10 hours a day and bing told they are weak and worthless (for instance, Catholic School! - and aren't there recovery groups from that authoritarian society too?)
John, you seem to think that we are all pussies who can't take reality. I guess we are all still worthless and weak, and selfish too, if that's what questioning our seed experience makes us. I don't buy it. Life is complex and full of shades of gray that Art and the Seed didn't allow us to explore.
Perhaps Art's experience of war set the tone - don't question the command structure, loyalty above all, obedience...no fooling around! Get out of your head! Sit up! And I am sure that is necessary during combat. Is it necessary during life?
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John U:
Fuelaw said -By the way John Underwood is a disgraceful human being !
I completely concur. You are sloppy in your communication skills and you leave little to be desired in the way of inter-personal relation skills with those you deem below you. A good man can find common ground with the lowly and the kings.
As for the lawyer/liar reference - it just goes to show that you are a sheep - a follower, a bleater. BAAAHHHH Someone who has no original thoughts whatsoever. BAAAHHHH Please, if you are going to insult a profession, any profession and especially MY profession, at least take a little time to find out what it's really about. But you would have to go beyond your sheep fence to do that and that's just not going to happen anytime soon, is it?
As for the Me me me, III- what the fuck was the seed about anyway but me me me and IIII? You sure do have a selective memory, pal. The entire program was premised on making us think about our own needs first. I call bullshit on you for that. You were a purveyor of mememe III - We were told that we could never get or claim understanding of the teachings at the seed until we first loved ourselves.
What now? Do you see that the incorrigibe "stupid" monsters you helped create in the 70's have grown up and come back to hold you accountable?
No "come down" you ever did was ever predicated on helping someone - you yourself admitted that your diatribes were based on YOUR judgment of the "stupid" person who, by YOUR standards, didn't get "it." It was always ABOUT YOU - attention on you - putting fear in the hearts of children and teenagers so they would do and think as YOU wanted them to. YOU were and still are the seed. I call bullshit on you, again, John Underwood.
What a real man you are now...insulting people because you just can't admit that MAYBE you might have been wrong. Guess what pal, the "stupid" ones you continiue to demean on this forum can see right through your lizard mentality. Your deep musings and defenses are pure entertainment to me and like a cat with lizard, I enjoy smacking your tail.
Personally, I think you are just jealous because you have no ability to make it to the other side of the debate, let alone any deisre to learn something new. That you have not evolved, matured or changed one fucking thing about the self you present here from the junkie control freak you were at the seed is so patently obvious, it's just too funny.
To all those folks you scared who are reading this:folks- remember - he's just a man. Another poor slob wrapped in a blanket of denial that won't forever keep him safe from the "fruits" of his labor.
I did not like you then and I especially don't like you now. When you ask God to forgive you for what you have done and you seek the forgivness of those you hurt, maybe you will be able to see the gate and come on over.
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Quote: As far as helping other people - hey, I had newcomers. I tried to help them, given what I knew from my seed training. Did I? Did it do good? Perhaps one will post here at some point and I will know. I do know that now, as a socially, politically, intellectually engaged person, I try to do well - I volunteer, I work for a progressive non-profit, I have a wife and a child, we recycle! Etc. I try to live a good life. The seed experience was a part of that, but I have a very different direction from what 'Seed straight' was.
Hey Wally Gator,
I will respond to your question being that I lived with you at the Seed and you were technically one of my old comers in the later stages of my program. I can remember you very clearly as if it were yesterday I never considered you or thought of you as some lower rung member, the thought never occurred to me. Maybe because at this point of the game I was completely oblivious to any type of status climbing by anyone, I felt some people had more importance than others but just accepted this as the nature of things. I always respected you very much and thought you were hysterical it was hard not to talk to you and leave the conversation not feeling good or better. The example you lead was very good and I felt that on the outside you toted the line very well (I never saw the internal conflicts you were wrestling with). Remember the rule ?If you see or hear of anyone with a problem?? I did think you did had some issues with your work situation and in retrospect your jobs did not match your intellectual capacity or your personality for that matter. Someone like yourself should have been encouraged to go to school and develop themselves in that direction but at that time I lack in maturity and did not have the benefit of experience under my belt. I fell victim to that mentality which was to conform to my position not challenge any directive given by Staff or Art and just go along for the ride. This was way too easy for me and matched my personality to a tee. Later this created a huge conflict within me as I wanted to try different things and all I keep hearing was I did not need to go in certain directions and to just be happy and grateful with where I was at. This was the one point and beef I had with the Seed I needed to grew and experience new things I needed to cut some ties and venture out on my own find my own strength and individuality. All this is hindsight and we were just trying our best to figure things out.
One major event that really opened my eyes was when you left in the middle of the night. I was the last person that you saw from the Seed that night. Do you remember? You going out to the living room in the middle of the night and we watched some stupid grade B comedy you looked tormented and I wrote off as just not being able to sleep and just like that you were gone. The next morning I was awaken by Bob W to a barge of questions about you. I can clearly remember Bob explaining to me how we all had a past and these things happened and this kind of confused me with the way I was suppose to feel. I had no ill feeling or anger toward you just felt sad that you were gone and I knew that I would miss your presence but I also knew or had an idea as how I was suppose to react to the situation so I just stayed silent and harbored any questions or feelings I might have had about the whole situation. I remember laughing to myself when I realized one of the only things you took was your electric piano thinking how you must of loved that piano.
It was at this time I saw for the first time not all was perfect in our little world and I never really saw that some day in the not too distant future that I to would be wresting with very similar issues.
I remember you with very fond memories and imagine my surprise to find you on this web site finally getting the full explanation to an event that left me so perplexed many years ago. By the way I always enjoy your posts and have nothing but good wishes for you and your family. I guess you can accuse ?of looking at the world thru rose colored glasses?, as we use to say but it was people like you that I met while I was at the Seed that I look at the Seed as a very good and worthwhile experience. I certainly appreciate your point of view because it comes from someone that live the experience just as I did.
Thanks Wally Gator,
from a long lost Cuban brother
CG
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Hey Stripe,
Just throwing an old cheap shot you wished you have thrown 30 odd years ago? Give the guy a break at least he has the balls to post. Is this not the purpose of this site to discuss to listen and to come to terms? John's post must be like a wet dream to Greg & Antigen. I for one hope he keeps posting and expressing himself. Sometimes it?s hard to see the forest thru the trees my friend.
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I swear it sounds and begining to feel like a womans homeless shelter or clinic or abused wives home. Maybe you should direct this shit btowards your husband. I don't mean to be insulting, but thats what its beginning to sound like... ::boohoo:: ::boohoo::
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Greetings to you again John from a fellow Seed graduate. I am glad that you took some time to read other posts & to respond again.
Your point about the lack of discussion on this board about "helping others" is well-taken BUT... I don't believe it is fair to conclude that the commonality of the members as a bunch of self-obsessed spoiled brats.
The whole point of relating in a forum like this is to share "your" experiences and the events that affected "your" life. So it is not unusual to run into alot "I this" or "I that".
Even the most jaded & cynical of the former seedlings can think back & remember many times where they a) were truly glad to see a fellow new-comer finally "get it" & start to be honest and to see his/her face "glow" with genuine happiness or b) while a fellow seedling was being come down on in the rap was able to say something that they could relate to & that helped them or c) felt at some time (for a relatively brief moment) that The Seed really could change the world because they could see how the program was helping "them" or d) saw the new tough guy doing the hokey pokey & having fun or e) helped a newcomer see that it could be "cool" to be straight.... etc.
Let's face it.. The Seed used pretty extreme peer pressure to counteract peer pressure. Some call it brain-washing and it could certainly have good & ill effects. Particularly if there is no room for debating certain issues, which the program did not tolerate. The Seed wasn't a messy democracy but a more efficient dictatorship.. which arguably is what was needed but not ideal. I can remember a time in Guys Rap when we were talking about games we used to play with chicks for example & someone would describe how they had a lot of FUN going out surfing with the girls or out riding dirt bikes, etc... when that really wasn't the "right" thing to say & they got pounded verbally. Anything about the "old days" couldn't be fun because we were so f**ked up & miserable - which of course wasn't always true. But, we had to say we were miserable to "fit in" and avoid getting stood up. If the program would have tolerated more "honest" conversation & some debate while instilling the core principles you talked about (self honesty, love of self & others, etc) it would have helped a lot. When I told someone passing by "I Love You".... many times it was heartfelt but after awhile I was just "saying" what I was supposed to say. Know what I mean?
I am no expert, but from what I have heard about AA over the years... it seems to be a better program in respect to allowing the participants in the group to do or say whatever they want while trying to impress on them that it is the common experience that "if you do "X" then "Y" will happen, but if you don't believe it go find out yourself. We will be here for you anytime you need help". That is a very compassionate & empathetic support group. By contrast, The Seed could be very caring & supportive BUT only if you said & did the right things and didn't ever question Art or Staff.
As "I" have said here in this forum a few times, I am glad that I went to The Seed... it helped put me on the right path after "hitting the bottom" at the tender age of 16. However, when I graduated I did not want to continue participating because it was so rigid and I was paranoid about getting thrown back in. I was lucky to have a group of seedlings in my town that I stayed friends with for many years. We had fun & helped each other grow into adulthood. I did & still do try to help people with problems tho & I give you & The Seed alot of credit for helping me "grow up". Thank you!
Greg J
Sarasota
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This forum is fantastic!!!Congrates to who ever started it up!!I found you all just by chance!I now live over seas and have recently been following the unjust arrest of peace protesters in St.Pete which occurred in front of Baywalk,which led to Sembler corp.,that led on to straight and then on to you guys.
Hey John,remember me?I escaped in the middle of the night barely squeezing out thru the bathroom jaluosie windows.I was pretty damn desperate to get out.It was my third and final escape.I was lucky.My parents didn't put me back in under a court order.
John, you have to admit,the Seed was a unique and profound experience!Now at 50 I still think back on those days with great interest.It was difficult for the first few years after leaving because everything I did was an inner battle between the freedom to be an individual or conforming to the ideas of the group.
But a few years after escaping I ran across a book about mass brainwashing of American POWs
by Korean military and it was all there!Food and sleep depravation,physical uncomfortableness,(we were like sardines on those wooden benches)sin and confession,cut off from any family contact(for POWs mail)everyone on the outside inclueding family and friends are out to hurt you,or forgotten about you because you are worthless,but we (seed/Koreans)can save you,we can make you whole again!John,it might help to do a little reading and research.
And as far as others,I can still see all those
trapped faces.Faces from as young as 9 on up to the 24 year old with the full beard.(during my last days there he shaved it off)I wonder what has happened to them all?What's happened to Libby
or Paul or the great con and showman himself Art Barker?
We all went around chanting "I LOVE YOU" and how happy we were because every day straight was just like christmas but it was all so fake!In reality there was no tenderness within the system of the program.It was a program of cruelty and humiliation in order to indoctrinate.
And you know something,I'm not angry at you or hate you, what good is that going to do me and I'm sure you could give a f__k,but I do feel sorry for you.And I understand your anger which comes from the fear of one day realizing the Seed was wrong and you were part of that wrong.
Coming to terms with that is not going to be easy, but when and if you do, it will make you a better person.
Anyway glad I've run in to you all and I'll be dropping in now and again to see what's up.
Ya all take care!
The seed indeed is all you need. HA!
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On 2005-08-11 19:25:00, Filobeddoe wrote:
"Greetings to you again John from a fellow Seed graduate. I am glad that you took some time to read other posts & to respond again.
The whole point of relating in a forum like this is to share "your" experiences and the events that affected "your" life.
Let's face it.. The Seed used pretty extreme peer pressure to counteract peer pressure. Some call it brain-washing and it could certainly have good & ill effects. Particularly if there is no room for debating certain issues, which the program did not tolerate. The Seed wasn't a messy democracy but a more efficient dictatorship..
OK, NOW I FINALLY GET IT...Isn't it Greg, Antigen and Stripe that are using EXTREME peer pressure to create a more efficient dictatorship? ::bigsmilebounce::
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Thanks CG, my long-lost Cubano friend, for your posting. I remember the night I left so well, I will never forget it. I will never forget you either, and I am so glad that you are doing well in life.
By the time you came on the program, I had more or less settled into my role as Wally Gator, happy-go-lucky guy, maybe a little eccentric and shy, but sometimes pretty funny. It felt a lot like the role I had played in my family, the peacekeeper, the older brother, the good student who could be the class clown too. While inside I was torn up with feelings of loneliness, isolation, and self-hatred, on the outside I was all smiles. What was inside of me was so horrible to me, felt so out of control, and was so opposite of what I felt I projected to the world, that I didn't know how to bring these two worlds together. I know that everyone feels this, but I don't think everyone feels it to the extent that I did. I had panic attacks when I was around people I didn't know or feared, or that I knew and felt insecure around. Somedays, my eyes would water with tears I couldn't control, or my throat would tighten up so much that I felt I couldn't breathe, and I had chronic digestive problems and high blood pressure. Fun, eh, for a 20 year old? I don't blame the Seed for this, I came in that way, but they did NOTHING to help me with this. Nothing. How could they? I was surviving as I always had, but projecting a socially acceptable exterior to the world while trying to keep my real feelings at bay. I can't even explain how difficult this was. (Thank god I am a different person today).
Meanwhile, I was trying to be a good seedling and help out. I worked menial jobs by and large, sat in raps, played endless boring games of football or softball, which I can't stand (I really tried to love it, but it was the most boring, frustrating and humiliating activity for a non-jock like me to waste my life on). I related. I tried to be funny, because being emotional was beyond me. I never cried once - never - in 7 years as a Seedling. In fact, my emotions were completely shut down. (I cry all the time today, my wife thinks it's hysterical).
OK, here's the point. I recognized you and some others as being sort of like me. I resented it, because we were the 'nice guys;' the kind of awkward, shy and funny guys who try to fit in, but it's hard for us, isn't it? We're not the jocks, not the alpha-male types, and we often had locked deep inside powerful emotions we couldn't handle. We are prisoners within our lives. And we are exactly the type of person the Seed used to do a lot of the day to day. Let the guys and chicks with big egos run the raps, they love it and need it and it keeps them in line (and they won't change either - JU still sounds like a rap leader, coming down on us weaklings). We're firmly entrenched in our family roles, it's just a new family.
If I helped you and others at all, it was because I let you know (selfishly) that it was OK to be you. I desperately hoped this was true, because then it could be OK to be me too. I used humor, my sidekick, and I would let you know that you could bend the rules a bit, as long as you meant well, and that even though we weren't ego driven leader types, we could do good at the Seed, be happy, and accept our lot in life. 'Be happy with what you've got.'
That was only half of the story. The truth was, I was miserable inside. I still had my lonely demons to wrestle with. And I knew it wasn't OK to talk about it. I knew, 'cause staff let me know, that I was a little 'weird' and emotionally fragile (Scott B. would tease me about being the kind of guy who would 'start shooting people from a steeple' and I feared it was true). Also, as much as I loved you, I resented that fact that I was stuck in the same group as you, another one of the 'nice guys.' I wanted to be an ego person. I wanted to lead raps. I wanted to have a glamorous job, so I could talk about how little it meant to me like some of the other guys who were corporate VPs or owned companies. I wanted acclaim, wanted to be good at baseball and football, wanted the girls to remember my name and laugh at my jokes, wanted to have dinner with staff. It was never going to happen. I was going to be loyal, lonely, unhappy, smilin' Wally Gator until I died. Helping people? I had to help myself first, and I was never going to do that at the Seed.
JU, I have been able to embrace my whole personality and realize what I am. I don't need you to stand me up and tell me how weak I am, or patronizingly be my 'friend'. Thank god. I see you for what you are, flawed like the rest of us. US US US not me me me, if it makes you feel better.
CG, I will never forget my days at the Seed. I will never forget you and my other friends. I wish I could have truly been a friend with you, shared my life as I really learned how to live it. At the Seed, we had our roles to play, and we were never able to change that.
I love this forum. I do...I feel that all that was locked up inside of me during my seed days I can now express. It is a liberation. Thanks Greg and Ginger (and JU and Robin and Marshall and 80s Guy and even the crazy postings about the CIA, et al)
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A-Men, Cleveland! Though I never had the sort of kinship and affection for Seedlings that you did, I do remember very well the ever growing conflict you describe. Same physical symptoms, too, starting at around age 11 or 12.
Robin, have a seat! You're started over, day one! You'll be going home w/ Karen tonight. Karen, you make sure Robin gets honest. :rofl:
Seriously, though. Challenging debate is not the same thing as brainwashing. It's interesting to me to hear about how things changed and how things remained the same over the years. You should be allowed to do whatever you want with your own person and property, as long as you don't physically harm the person or property of a nonconsenting other.
Peter McWilliams - Ain't Nobody's Business If I Do
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On 2005-08-11 20:05:00, rod wrote:
This forum is fantastic!!!Congrates to who ever started it up!!I found you all just by chance!I now live over seas and have recently been following the unjust arrest of peace protesters in St.Pete which occurred in front of Baywalk,which led to Sembler corp.,that led on to straight and then on to you guys.
De nada! So glad you happened along. If you don't mind my asking, which country are you living in now and how did you happen accross news of the Baywalk thing? Is this story getting any significant international attention? I'm just waiting for some decent treatment of the similarities of philosophy and method between the Program and the way we're treating POWs and other detainees.
The age of ignorance commenced with the Christian system.
--Thomas Paine, American revolutionary
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Delusions of Grandeur :wave: :lol:
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By the way I just posted at 1:43PM & the clock posting time sayes 9:42. Am I not getting something or is your clock off????? :???:
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On 2005-08-11 15:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Hey Stripe,
Just throwing an old cheap shot you wished you have thrown 30 odd years ago? Give the guy a break at least he has the balls to post. Is this not the purpose of this site to discuss to listen and to come to terms? John's post must be like a wet dream to Greg & Antigen. I for one hope he keeps posting and expressing himself. Sometimes it?s hard to see the forest thru the trees my friend.
"
Ahem.
My wet dreams always involved WOMEN, there anon..and hot women to boot.
:grin: :grin:
Havent had one in years. In fact...I think I miss em.
:grin:
In all seriousness, I too want John to keep posting. He is entitled to say whatever he wants, and so is everyone else.
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Robin, Im calling MAJOR bullshit on your post. Extreme peer pressure?
Turn off your fucking computer if your feeling pressure.
You just dont understand what a voluntary discussion is or you are just trying desperately to poke holes in a very good discussion? Go ahead, make a counterpoint but that was just nonsense.
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And welcome ROB!
I think I remember you. Were you in St Pete_?Skinny blondish guy?
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On 2005-08-12 09:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"By the way I just posted at 1:43PM & the clock posting time sayes 9:42. Am I not getting something or is your clock off????? :???: "
The server is on the left coast, Pacific time. Where are you? It's only 1:02 here in EDT.Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.
--Anonymous
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Robin,
I don't think it's always about sheep and wolves, but sometimes it feels that way, doesn;t it. FYI I did not start this site, I just like to read, post and work stuff out here. Public therapy with very few boundaries and lots of feed back from many, many points of view. I found it like most of the rest of us - stumbling through my life and using the "google" button to get some answers.
Sorry to hear you are leaving. I considered leaving too because I have so many times felt like my views were totally rejected by seed supporters like you, John U. and some other whose names and handles I can't remember. How weird is that ?
Your very first post directed to me (to Anaon w/law degree) requested that I provide specific examples of how the seed hurt me. I was really shocked by the force, if you will, of your inquiry - like how in the world could I have possibly been hurt by something that was good for you? I dunno, maybe its because I was not and am an addict and you were/are therefore, the seed mind set is a structure you need to have and one I cannot tolerate. We can agree to be different. It's okay and I don't think it compromises your position or mine.
I bid you peace as well.
Kevin Jean aka Stripe
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Im in Pompano Beach, Its 2;20PM & ...
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OK now I get it. Sometimes my brain works slow...from all the brainwashing.
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So, Pompano, what was your point? Did you have a point? I'm guessing you're really grasping at straws, trying hard to identify some plausible reason to reject anything I say that challenges your opinions but that you can't refute logically.
How far off am I?If you think yourself too wise to involve
yourself in government, you will be governed
by those too foolish to govern.
--Plato
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Qute: Ahem.
My wet dreams always involved WOMEN, there anon..and hot women to boot.
Havent had one in years. In fact...I think I miss em.
In all seriousness, I too want John to keep posting. He is entitled to say whatever he wants, and so is everyone else.
LOL :silly:
To be an atheist requires strength of mind and goodness of heart found in not one of a thousand.
--Samuel Taylor Coleridge, English poet, critic, journalist, philosopher
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On 2005-08-12 11:03:00, Stripe wrote:
"Robin,
....
Your very first post directed to me (to Anaon w/law degree) requested that I provide specific examples of how the seed hurt me. I was really shocked by the force, if you will, of your inquiry - like how in the world could I have possibly been hurt by something that was good for you? I dunno, maybe its because I was not and am an addict and you were/are therefore, the seed mind set is a structure you need to have and one I cannot tolerate. We can agree to be different. It's okay and I don't think it compromises your position or mine.
I bid you peace as well.
Kevin Jean aka Stripe "
Turns out, I was wrong, it wasn't Robin, but an anon who wrote that to me. Thank you, Robin, for bringing it to my attention.
[ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-08-13 19:21 ]
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"Last year, a reporter from Canadian marijuana advocacy magazine Cannabis Culture asked Betty Sembler in person about the horror stories he?d read from Straight survivors. Sembler replied, ?They should get a life. I am proud of everything we have done. There's nothing to apologize for. The legalizers are the ones who should be apologizing.?
That?s the attitude of the drug war?s power duo. Shattered lives, suicides, forced abortions, fractured psyches ? all necessary casualties of the drug war, and nothing to apologize for."
Sound familiar? Same attitude. Get a life, get over it, grow up, etc. Expecting John to be critical of the Seed may be akin to expecting the pope to renounce catholicism. He was too much of an integral part of the whole program. Too much personally invested to take an objective look. I can imagine how I'd feel in his place reading this site. Any criticism of the program would feel like a personal attack. I agree with Ginger that it's very much like a religion. If you're a hindu and someone criticizes hinduism, you generally feel attacked along with the need to defend yourself and lash out.
On the Straight forum, I did find a post by a former senior staff member (marnie) apologizing for being a part of that program, pronouncing it a 'joke', etc.
Me, me, me. If you were sitting in the back during a rap all you'd hear would be me, me, me ad nauseum too. 'Before the seed 'I' was bad, now 'I' am trying to be good. I'm working on myself. Kicking myself in the ass everyday. Learning to love myself...blah blah.' Even if we posted that 'I remember helping someone or someone asked 'me' for help and I...' Isn't that also about me? At this site, Greg specifically asks us to relate 'personal' experiences' from the program. I don't have other's memories...their all mine.
Why so much negativity here? Think back to your days on the program. How many negative comments about the program or staff were you allowed to make? It was all 'accentuate the positive'...unless we were speaking about our horrible druggie past...in which case it was accentuate the negative. Only one side was allowed at the seed. Anything else was 'not important'. If you were on your program at the time & had asked staff why John left....do you suppose you would have been told anything resembling the truth? If the negative seems emphasized here, it's probably as a counterweight to the complete absence of any critical comments or thoughts being allowed back then. I've posted several times that there were positive things about the seed's ideas. I was able to keep and use what I thought useful and discard the rest. But this was explicitly forbidden by the program itself...no picking and choosing.
-------------------------------------------------
quote:
"Bitterness, resentment, anger, hostility, self-pity, et al are not independent entities that possess you. These are choices you make."
-------------------------------------------------
I agree 100%. About the only time that I even think of the Seed these days is when reading this forum. You shouldn't read the posts here and conclude that anyone sits around dwelling on this stuff. That's pure projection. Posting on this forum has several uses. By sharing (relating!) to others who have had similar expereinces, feelings and thoughts some of us have been able to heal the personality fragmentation and distortion resulting from the seed and help others to do the same. It isn't just a matter of us poor seed kids wallowing in our own resentments, etc. then The Seed is dead. Our captivity is over. Unfortunately, some version of Art's great dream lives on in countless other programs. It's important that we (who feel this way) make it plain that such programs cause more harm than good. Our witness and testimony here helps make that plain and hopefully some parent or govt. official may read here and have second thoughts about similar programs.
Expectations of perfection: I don't think I ever expected the seed to be perfect. But when someone claims to know your best interests more than you, your parents, therapists, this sets a very high standard. Peer-pressure techniques are value-free in themselves. You can mould a person's mind into any direction that you choose. That Art was so confident that he knew what was correct and true....so much that he was willing to use these powerful pursuasion techniques in order to bring kids' thinking into alignment with his own ideas...sets him (& his staff) up to a very high standard....almost beyond human. When did any rap leader confide; 'well, I'm not really sure about this...if any of you have any different ideas please feel free to correct me or bring them up.'? No. The concepts were presented as infallible, not to be questioned or examined. Any hint of critical thinking was met with the same sort of response that John has shown here. We were only supposed to take things so far...any further and it was 'analyzing, getting into your head, intellectual bullshit' and so on. Another thought-stopping techinique. It is the authoritarian nature of the seed that invites this focus upon the negative aspects. Rather than give any thoughtful answers or responses to the critiques of the seed posted here, John chose to answer by labeling ('bagging' everyone on the website...in seedspeak), calling people names and hurling insults. This approach is no doubt a product of the brotherly love, respect, empathy, compassion and great awareness that is the legacy of the seed.
For everyone that believes that the Seed was a good thing....I would urge you to visit the other forums on this site if you haven't already done so. Do you believe these other programs (such as Straight) were also good things? If not, why not exactly? What made the seed different? And which Seed are you defending? The early Seed...where most members were for legalizing marijuana according to a news clipping I read in staff's office? The Seed (and it's siblings in miami, st. pete and cleveland) of John's era? Or the later Seed with it's emphasis on money, status, where you were always on your program and never expected to leave? If you're only critical of the later seed, how did such loving, aware beings become status-seeking control freaks? Sorry so long. Much of the above is not directed specifically to John, just general thoughts from reading all the posts of late. I gotta run now...time for my afternoon mental masturbation. :lol:
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John, I totally agree with you. If I didn't try to help someone everyday, even if it's just a smile, then what is my pupose in life?? I know God put me on this earth to love others as He loves me. I read so much negativity here, I wonder if some people are actually happy or even know who the are. I learned a lot from the Seed. Yet I also got pretty screwed up too. I went through AA, and that's where I really learned who I was.Even though I wasn't an alcholic and I learned to share my experince, strength, and hope with others.
Take care John.
Julie
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Thus spake Dr Linda Hazzard before "curing" herself of all Earthly troubles w/ her own patented starvation cure.
Since you [US "drug tsar" McCaffrey] control a federal budget that has just been increased from $17.8 billion last year to $19.2 billion this year, is asking people like you if we should continue with our nation's current drug policy like a person asking a barber if one needs a haircut? --
Orange Country, California
Los Angeles Times
29 March 2000
--Judge James P. Gray
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I found it ironic that a couple of posters showed their support for j.u. by exclaiming;
"You Rock!" & "You're a cool dude." If either of these phrases had been used at the Seed (at least while I was there) you would have been stood up and reprimanded for holding onto old druggie attitudes and slang. Cool was a definite no no. Folks in the popular culture were just beginnig to use 'dude' and this was also never to be used at the seed. I always thought dude seemed to go with chick...but apparently those in charge thought otherwise. Heck, you may as well have told a staff member they were really far-out. I can imagine the reaction back then.
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On 2005-08-15 18:11:00, JaLong wrote:
"John, I totally agree with you. If I didn't try to help someone everyday, even if it's just a smile, then what is my pupose in life?? I know God put me on this earth to love others as He loves me. I read so much negativity here, I wonder if some people are actually happy or even know who the are. I learned a lot from the Seed. Yet I also got pretty screwed up too. I went through AA, and that's where I really learned who I was.Even though I wasn't an alcholic and I learned to share my experince, strength, and hope with others.
Take care John.
Julie"
JaLong:
Surely you are not suggesting that seed rejecters need to step on over to AA to finish the job, are you ? :wink:
The seed program was not, I repeat NOT, all sweetness and light. I got it, I lived it and I rejected it. Does that make me an unhappy person - as if happiness were the end goal and the highest point of spiritual development? I think not.
In the end, I think what theseed did was create a whole class of emotional cripples, both supporters and rejecters. Some of whom to cannot, to this day, live outside the confines of a "program" of sorts. Those folks are the ones I feel sorry for because it just might be that there was NEVER any thing really broken about them in the first place. Ending up broken and unable to function in the real world, but totally at ease within the confines and protection of a program. Now that would make me a very unhappy person. If that were the case, I'd lay money on it that I would be no closer to knowing myself now than I was to knowing myself then - way, way back a long long time ago.
The person I thought I "knew" at 15 was the person they told me I was. Pure and simple. In my head, (that terrible place you would never want be caught) I wondered if I was really as bad as they said I was.
If someone were to tell you day in and day out you are full of shit, worthless, dishonest and will end up dead, insane or in jail unless you submit your will to the greater good ... Christ, it would take an emotional Hercules to maintain a power position in that battle and not believe it. Unfortunately, there was no Hercules in my head and I lost that battle.
Look at any abused child, or man, or woman, and you will see the very same results you have here. And yes, it happens to men, too. Some will deny EMPHATICALLY that they were abused. Some are ashamed, some are angry, and some just reach a point where they won't tolerate it any more, even a little tiny bit. Hence the very negative responses you saw to JohnU's posts which you have attributed to unhappiness or lack on knowing oneself. Personally, I think that's just a bit too shallow and a real easy way to ignore the content.
After all these years, I realized they were wrong about me. Plain and simple, they were wrong about me and what they did to me was wrong. It was wrong, it was immoral and it was unethical.
Tell me, would you go to the Chevy dealer to get your Ferrari fixed? Probably not. But folks still send their children to unqualified individuals in like-minded prgrams to "fix" the most priceless gift they could ever be given. What they get back is not the child they sent in. Why, oh why, can't you see this? Help me understand you, please.
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stripe..did you miss Julie posting this?
"I learned a lot from the Seed. Yet I also got pretty screwed up too."
I think she is pretty objective obout her experience.
This is an observation I would like to make: What I took from the seed was overwhelmingly negative and caused me and my family much seperation and pain.
I saw other "kids" that seem to be able to just shrug it off, go on to smoke dope and drink and still say "the seed helped me...I needed something at the time". Their family units did not disenigrate around the issue, and their parents seemed to be able to put the whole program behind them.
As far as AA, I don't like it, never have never will. Still as we speak right now my best friend is going thru NA meetings to help him deal with his spouse's severe alcoholism. We talk about it all the time and it is helping him understand some things. He is also observing some negatives. The main point being, when XA is voluntary, and people are atending voluntarily and not under the coersion of the court system, It can be a beneficial thing. It can also become a compulsive replacement for the real world and cause people to believe they are "powerless" when in reality they possess the power, not some group of zealots...in other words....Shades of Gray and not all black and white. I have met many a AA person that was reasonable and others that were as cultish as any hari krisna shaking a tamboreen.
We all talk about how this forum has helped us, and I must say the biggest thing it has helped me with has been for me to be able to stop viewing my experience as the definition of what the seed was. It was many things to many people, and again the whole experience has many shades, depending on who is viewing it.
I will argue that the seed was a cult with anyone at any time and welcome the exchange, and I also believe firmly that the entire methodology does much more harm than good regardless of what particular group of world saving do gooders is leading the rap but no longer do I see it exclusively thru the eyes of a 14 year old boy.
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I think in some cases NA can be good, in other cases it can be nothing more than a different sort of addiction for the person going through a withdrawal. I know a woman who has been going to NA meetings for over 15 years because she used to smoke pot occasionally. If that ain't mental I don't know what is. She somehow thinks she is too weak and can't say no on her own without going to these meetings every month. Is that the fault of the NA program? Or her own personality. I think maybe a little of both. Someone should tell her to get over it already and move on with her life.
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When I left the Seed I cast about for some kind of structure...stayed at home for a month until my mom, to celebrate new years, got drunk and told me, 'nice guys never win...and you're a nice guy' - among other unpleasantness, I left home again, although I did not sever ties with my family. I enrolled in college and met with the college shrink, who told me, month's later, 'you're a sensitive guy and you've been thru a lot.' Not much help there. I read books like 'The Drama of the Gifted Child' and anything by John Bradshaw about family systems and shame. Although I decided I was NOT an alcoholic and started to enjoy wine (but learned what was too much), and had even smoked a joint or two (and found I would not develop full blown paranioa, as I had pre-Seed), I went to AA meetings and Alanon and Adult Children of Alcoholics. I tried to imagine my inner child. I joined a 'family group' and tried to re-enact parts of my childhood (embarrasing). I joined a men's group. I tried going to church, decided I had problems with religious pronouncements. Suffering from anxiety and depression, I went to a doctor who prescribed a drug, that lifted all my anxiety, (yea!) removed my sex drive (oh oh), and finally led me to develop mania, which was fun but unsustainable (I kissed everyone, wept and laughed - but didn't sleep - wrote really bad - and really long - poems, and dressed in some kind of faux asian bohemian style; I almost lost my job!). I stopped the drug cold. I'm glad it's over, but I learned about parts of myself I didn't know still existed, like joy. Sometime later, I got married, and much later, divorced. Recently remarried (to a fantastic woman), and now I have a child, at age 46. My wife is jewish, I've been to temple (not bad - very spiritual and no banging on poor jesus christ all day long). I have wine with dinner, use no drugs except what's medically necessary, haven't gotten high in ages. If it weren't not for the fear that world is in terrible, terrible shape, I'd consider myself happy. And what did I take from all of this searching, flailing about for meaning?
We're all a bunch of fools and lost souls, and we should be kind to each other. Maybe there's a god, maybe not, but I am skeptical of anyone who claims to speak for him, her or it. Power corrupts everyone, and so does the lack of power. Buddhism is kind of cool, but can be boring. Sometimes it's nice to be with a group of people, sometimes you're better off alone, but both can make you crazy. Your family will drive you crazy, but that's where you came from. Hard work won't kill you, either will lazyness, just not too much of both. Sometimes problems do just go away by themselves. Doctors are people too. Goverment is corrupt. Beware of anyone who has an easy answer for you. Life is STILL like high school. There are always winners and losers, sometimes it doesn't matter.
There's my wisdom, such as it is. My Seed experience, both embracing it and rejecting it, was a part of that.
Sorry if this is self-endulgent, I just wanted to lay this out there. I suppose, in some way, this forum satisfies my need to 'rap.'Thank you!
Walter
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You left out the sunscreen...always apply a good suncreen.
http://carbon.cudenver.edu/~hgreenbe/sunscreen.html (http://carbon.cudenver.edu/~hgreenbe/sunscreen.html)
:grin:
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Walter, you rock dude.
I really do like this guy.
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quote
-----------------------------
Walter, you rock dude
------------------------------
:lol: :lol: :lol: Wow, Terrance...you must not be all that brainwashed afterall. Anyway, I agree. BTW, do you still play a lot of tennis these days?
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Stripe,
You missed my whole point. I was very screwed up from the Seed, but I was stealing, dealing, robbing, beating up my mom, as my dad beat me, I was gang raped at 14, and I didn't know my butt from a hole in the ground, before or after the Seed. I will say, I was full of fear and anxiety, then started having panic attacks in there. I believe to this day that we were brainwashed. Knocked down to nothing, then everyone "built" up the same way. One thing was different for me. I was close to Susie Conners. My oldcomers had the female staff living with them at the time, so I had all night to talk to Susie. All the staff went through the program just like we all did, yet Susie treated me well, and taught me a lot. So there, I said it. No, I am most certainly not saying everyone needs to go to AA. I went with a boyfriend, and I saw things in some people that I wanted. So I started going. This was MY experience. I thought I could be open and honest here, but it doesn't seem that that is looked upon nicely. I am not looking at life through rose colored glasses. My life has been very hard. I have been disabled since 1991, have had a heart attack at 45, have raised 4 children by myself, I am in physical pain 24/7. I have Fibromyalgia, and Chronic Fatique syndrome, and 11 surgeries since 1991. But ya know what Sripe? Life does go on. I have found joy, happiness, and peace within myself. 19 of my old friends have died from suicide, murder, and overdoses. Some were in the Seed. So what Stripe? What? I am still here when I should have been dead from my heart attack. I am still here for a reason. I just let go and let God. Yes, for ME there is a very loving God, and He allows us to go through crap just so we learn and become stonger. I am just sharing my feelings. No comment is necessary please. So, take care Stripe.
Julie
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Marshall,
Not as much tennis as I would like...Do you remember that from Cranbrook days?
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Were you from Albany, GA? I hear gas is like $1.79 a gallon there for some reason???[ This Message was edited by: Ft. Lauderdale on 2005-08-16 10:51 ]
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Also I don't think anyone has called me Terrence since the nuns in 8th grade.
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I vaguely remember there was a staffer named Terry... hmmmm...
I have never seen the slightest scientific proof of the religious theories of heaven and hell, of future life for individuals, or of a personal God.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor
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I just remember you talking frequently about playing. I started playing it some after moving back to ga. I loved tennis but haven't played for almost 20 years. Switched to badminton soon after I got married...tennis for wuss's, I guess.
Gas prices here are $2.52 for reg., 2.62 for plus & 2.72 for premium. They were cheaper in Atlanta than here a few months ago. So, it's not cheap here either.
Geez, so many of you guys seem to have been schooled by nuns. I guess it seems odd to me because catholics are such a minority in this part of the country.
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Marshall,
I don't think I've ever read a bumper sticker that says "Real men play Badminton". or playing Badminton will put hair on your chest.
I love tennis...and ping pong... I guess its a family thing. We are all OK at it too.
It's kinda sad my father was playing singles at age 79, complained of an extreme headache and had to stop. He wound up having major brain surgery due to a blood vessel popping and died from it a couple of months later.
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and hey Banjo players are a minority here too.
Sorry I couldn't resist.
( :grin: No one is from further south than me, Miami)
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Just shows u how easy it is to be misunderstood here. I was trying to say that BADMINTON IS
'tennis for wuss's...not that tennis is..er,oh..nevermind.
Sorry about your dad. Lost mine to cancer a few years ago.
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Hey I'm jokeing.
Sorry to hear about your Dad, too.
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I just reread it . I did read it wrong...sorry.
Oh well it was funny either way.
Did you know Grant, George and Charley?
I actually visited Albany in I think 1978 or 1979.
I lived in Atlanta, in midtown for a short time around that time period.
I used to say Ya'all and everything.
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I also remember mahaw (spelling?) jelly...
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"It can be a beneficial thing. It can also become a compulsive replacement for the real world and cause people to believe they are "powerless" when in reality they possess the power, not some group of zealots...in other words....Shades of Gray and not all black and white. I have met many a AA person that was reasonable and others that were as cultish as any hari krisna shaking a tamboreen."
I think this can be a pretty accurate assesment, the first 3 or 4 years in the program (AA) I went to at least 1 or 2 meetings a week. When I moved from New Orleans to the Gulf Coast I just never reestablished a group over there. I'll be sober 14 years this Sept 6th, (happy birthday to....)I have off & on picked up the big book & re-worked certain parts of the 12 steps, especially that making amends thing... But I have never felt the compulsion(?) need? to completely immerse myself back into a group & a program that intensely again... Don't get me wrong it definitely helped me get my life back together again, but I wanted it this time around, still do. I am an extremely impulsive person given to extremes (and self destructive tendencies & behaviors), adult ADHD, (son has it too unfortunately)used to give in to a really bad temper... at least AA gave me an opportunity & some of the tools to change, myself, to work on those defects, the things I did not like about me, at least showed me that I did not have to remain the person I was...
There are lots of things still f***d up with me, but I at least can admit they are there, haven't figured them all out, yet.... After 22 years of marriage #2 (divorced a year & a half) I am just now realizing what an emotional child I am, and the fears & insecurities I still have & deal with on a daily basis. It's pretty pathetic when I think about it intellectually. Grew up the youngest of 5 boys, Irish Catholic household, lots of love, lots of fighting, lots of screaming. Took me many years to figure out that this might not be the way a family has to be or has to behave.
Oh Yeah & getting older helps too, has a tendency to help "put things in perspective" looking back over a longer time frame, like knowing what I know now, I would have asked all those classmates of mine to sign my year-book, stupid huh? Thanks for being there...
Chris Lewis
Seed 73-75
AA 91 -
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Your son may have albhabet soup, but he is a cool kid in my best estimation.
I imagine him as a cool adult as well. I think when we were young, they called ADHD hyperactive, creative, athletic, or any number of other things that didn't require amphetamines to fix. I saw behind your sons very alert eyes an intelligent sensitive kid.
I really liked your son. You too Chris. You guys are okay in my book.
:tup:
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Thanks Greg, right back at you brother!
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John, if we move beyond the escape from drugs and alcohol (which is huge), how did the Seed and your experience as a staff member mold you and affect the rest of our life?
I would image it developed leadership and confidence.
Did it lead you into your lifetime profession?
Was everything kind of boring after that intensity?
Would you do it over again as a staffer?
Why did the Seed not draw more from AA, like having people read the AA Big Book and 12 and 12?
AA uses the traditions to offset classic alcoholic ego mania. The seed did not operate under a set of traditions of this nature to keep things in check. Were there enough checks and balances in the system?
Although clearly Art was a person like all the rest of us, do you think he had special gifts with at the same time counterbalanced weaknesses?
Did success affect Art?
Have you thought about writing a book about the explosion and implosion of the Seed phenomeon? It would be cool.
When I left before graduating (being kicked out) why did they not refer me to AA as a fall back? Verses telling me the Seed was the only answer?
Is there anything you would have changed in your choices and behaviors while in the Seed?
Are there things you had to learn the hard way working with addicts and parents?
Do you believe you were naive in any ways?
Were there changes that occured at the Seeds that were slow in progression, so they were suddenly seen with the realization the trend had been progressing all along?
Did you see the Seed and staff change with growth and success.
I have thought about your posting. I would say everyones experience is different. I would not say the Seed was perfect, but I would say that I saw and experienced compassion there and I have never forgotten it. I had the impression the goals there were positive.
IMO, maintaining control in a environment full of schemeing hard core dope fiends propelled by addictive behavior and years of street hustler mentality is no small task and looks like a dirty job in many ways. The system had to set up to maintain that contol since the particapants were not voluntary (like for instance AA is).
I now have 18 years sober in AA. If I look at the treatment centers and halfway houses I have worked with peaple from, there is success rate is very low and the environment looks like it would be a challenge for even non-addicted. There is alot of ego, relapse mentality, staff end pateints with control issues and few positve role models go draw from.
I have heard, and it is my experience that if a person is touched/connects in a positive way with one person it can make a difference between success and failure. I would say I got this at the Seed. An when I got there I was way out of control in addiction, realized it and being in the Seed miraculously allowed me to break the vicious cycle of addiction. Theapy and counciling, parents praying for my deliverance ect had already been tried. At that point I had already done way to much damage to myself and did not need to spend any additional time on the streets (things never quit seemed the same after all the LSD, ect. and erosion of my value system). In my opinion the Seed saved my life.
If I bottom line it, I got what I needed and am grateful to this day.
Of course, if I had the choice to do it over again, I would certainly have passed on the whole drug and alcohol addiction thing altogether. That was was a real mess.
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::bangin:: ::cheers:: :wstupid: :smokin:
Why dont you go celebrate with a blunt and a glass of whiskey ?
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::fuckoff:: ::dove::
This is for the above post.
My utmost respect to Summer of 72.
(Chris your not the only one with a temper and needs to control their impulsulveness...me)
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Say what you will, but the Seed really screwed up my life. Maybe for you it was different, but for me I hadn't even done any drugs. Maybe for a hardened ADULT drug user it works, but for a young 13 year old it didn't. You my dear, share in the blame in thinking everyone that walked through the doors was a hardened druggie needing to be saved. I needed to be saved, but it wasn't from drugs, it was from my family. Of course, since my family put me in there, they in your mind were the heroes.
You are arrogant and your posts clearly show that. Can you honestly say you have never seen the negative effects that the Seed had on some of the young kids?
I guess in your mind I am one of the "few" casualties sacrificed for the good of the majority. This casualty did not approve of being the sacrificial lamb.
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Sure, I remember all 3 very well. Grant & I lived with Doug & his ferrets.
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George & I were roomates in Atlanta. In the late 70's just before he got married.
Have you seen ayy of them since?
I did go to Charley's wedding years & years ago.
I think Grant sold chickens all over Ga. but that was along time ago too.
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No, haven't seen any of them since graduating the seed. I went into an albany subway sandwich shop a few years ago and saw Grant's name as owner /manager...figured he must be doing well. I did have some contact post-seed with a couple of brothers from the Albany area though...Dave & Scott C. Just a couple of visits, went to play at the local arcade and chatted.
A few weeks after graduating I moved to an apt. in Sunrise (Ft. Lauderdale) with some other graduates...Richard, Jay G.& Dwayne. I recall Richard informing me that you were coming by for a visit. I rushed to the bathroom and shaved my mustache. :lol: I only remember one or two oldtimers coming to group with facial hair. I thought that meant they were surely screwed up f.o.s., etc. One smoked a pipe and staff seemed to approved of him. I was perplexed. I must confess...I have a beard of sorts now. Shaved it once years ago and my wife freaked out and pleaded with me to grow it back. I look like a balding 15 year-old without it. Are any of the albany guys living in Lauderdale these days?
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All the Albany people are scattered about.
Now I remember you posting before about the Subway Shop.
Richard (was he the artist or another Richard from Hollywood?)
Dwane, I think his parents lived in Wilton Maners, which is part of Lauderdale. Jay G. I have not been able to put that name with a facefor a long time(white blond hair & glasses(the face I remembered) Was his dad in the military or something?
I remember Dave & Scott they also had an older brother I can't remember his name.
Were you around for 2 other brothers Rick & Roddy I would love to contact them.
There really are alot of people I would love to be in contact with also :smile: .
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Can't recall Richard's last name, but I don't think he was either of those. Seems like he was from some part of Ga. too...not albany area though. Tall, really thin guy with brownish hair.
Yep, that's Jay. We stayed pretty close friends for several years post-seed. His dad is a lawyer. His parents moved to Lauderdale and took in newcomers for a long time. Lost contact with him over 10 years ago. Like many, he went thru lots of ups and downs. Was married and doing well last I spoke with him. Mario C. from miami springs was another graduate that I knew pretty well. He visited Don and I in Ga. once. We were showing him around the area (we toured Plains) in my old vega when the car got stuck in mud and the 3 of us had to walk 7 miles in the dark on a moonless night with no flashlight.
No, I've heard the names, but didn't know Rick or Roddy.
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Mario C. does not ring any bells.
Do you remember Alex- a tall blonde guy?
I was driving around in Key Biscayne with my xwife a number of years ago and saw him fishing off a big bridge. I yelled hey Alex he waived we stopped and had a great talk.
I think you would remember him?
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Absolutely I remember Alex. Heck, I remember when he first came in with long hair. Very likable person, got along with most everyone. Mario was kinda quiet, probably why u don't remember him. He was from Argentina originally. Do you recall a cuban guy called Evelio? (I think that's the spelling) The Seed sort of threw him out, I think. Told him that he needed a therapist instead. Also, while we're reminiscing like a couple of old geezers...you were close to cliff at one time, so you must know the answer to my original question here. Why did he get started over? I know...it's not important... :wink: ...especially 30 years later. But if you ever feel so inclined to clue me in feel free to email me. I promise not to share any info given in confidence. I understand he's doing fine. Given this, it's not so much concern as curiosity about something that's bugged me for years. Like greg's synanon connection thingie.
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I haven't posted here for awhile, the reason is because I was a little more than ashamed of myself for what I did post.
John your right....
Infact I have started to feel a little dirty reading these post.
I'm getting on with my life as before I found this forum, maybe the rest of you should to.
As my dad used to say "This is going nowhere fast".
Thanks John Underwood for saying what I couldn't.
:wave:
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Cliff never got started over to my knowledge.
He's living with his wife somewhere in the Carolina's.
Now he's - :grin: really an old geezer.
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I'm getting on with my life as before I found this forum, maybe the rest of you should to.
As my dad used to say "This is going nowhere fast".
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Speak for youself. Most of us never stopped living our lives, certainly not because of this forum. If that really describes you, by all means turn your computer off and read a book or something.
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He went from leading raps & group staff one day to sitting near the front of the group (not front row though). Oldcomers / oldtimers had to walk him to the bathroom (arm around shoulder as was standard at the time) every time he went. After several weeks eventually started sitting on the side of group again occassionally but never led raps anymore. The starting over was just my assumption based upon the above. Something was definitely up. Another poster here also thought he had been started over...commenting that yes, it was strange. Just curious what the standards for such a thing might have been in regard to staff. Who knows whether it was due to shooting heroin or calling someone a cool dude. Someone also mentioned Cookie being started over at some point. Strange that sr. staff or art didn't consider the effect this might have on people on the program.
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Was it Cliff N. who was started over? I used to live with him. He was sort of a senior guy, sort of semi-staff, but no longer led raps of any sort. And Cookie also was started over while I was there, after being senior staff for years - Cookie, Lybbi and Ginger (along with Evy) were the heart of things. I remember Cookie, with her eyes red from crying, sitting on the front row. It was unbelievable! I never knew what she had done.
Bob Ch--k, a big, funny guy who was a jr. staff member (I lived with him at Plantation Apts.), just disappeared one day.
Alex, who was on jr. staff in Cleveland, never heard of him again once we moved to Florida. His family owned restaurants and used to donate food and hire kids. Where he went, no idea.
My oldcomeer went AWOL once, and came back. Apparently, he had fallen in love. He wasn't started over, but sort of hang-dog in the group for weeks.
I lived with Ray K., when he fell in love/had an affair with Laura. Both were former staff members, with that kind of status. Ray left the Seed, and went sort of nuts; used to graffiti and yell at the seed as he drove by.
"That's not important." You were supposed to just block it out of your mind. As a result, you never know who was in or out, or what anyone's status was. Everyone lived in fear of being 'demoted' or started over, and everyone contstantly was aware of what Art's reaction was, or Lybbi's.
There have been postings here of people who were kicked out for a variety of reasons - including JU![ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2005-08-18 08:37 ]
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Cookie was a part of my Seed experience, but I never really knew much about her. Seemed sweet, softspoken... I think she went to an all-girls boarding school--Miss Porter's or something. I have trouble picturing her being a leader. Did she lead raps? What was her story (history)? Why did she eventually leave?
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You're right, she was a very nice person. It wouldn't suprise me that she went to private school! She did lead raps, but that wasn't really her strength. She was on staff when I came in in 1978 and when I left in 1985.
She treated me like an actual person, not as a generic seed kid. I could tell the difference - she looked me in the eye, she listened to me, and I felt like a human being (by the way, I felt this way with Lybbi too). I trusted her. Maybe I was secretly a little pleased when she was started over, because by that point, I had started to question the seed dogma and the people I really liked were a little outside of the power structure. I counted her as one of 'us', in a small way.
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She married Roger ..... Maybe their dating had something to do with Cookie being started over? I don't know whether Roger was still involved in The Seed when they began seeing each other or not.
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No... they got together years later and I thought we didn't use last names. You seem to remain anonymous, why shouldn't he be able to?
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Greg or Antigen,
Can you please take out the last name of the above post. I really don't think its fair to have it on here.
:flame:
:smile: thank you ahead of time[ This Message was edited by: Ft. Lauderdale on 2005-08-18 11:09 ]
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Well, I can't speak for Greg, but my policy is to only edit material at the request of the author. So anon, if you agree and want the post edited, just ask. If you use the form at http://fornits.com/comnt.php (http://fornits.com/comnt.php) it'll save me a step of research in verifying authorship.
I have always thought that all men should be free; but if any should be slaves, it should be first those who desire it for themselves, and secondly those who desire it for others. Whenever I hear anyone arguing for slavery, I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally.
--Abraham Lincoln
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Ginger, I tried to send you the email, but am not sure it went through. Please delete the last name. I included it by mistake. Thank you.
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Done.
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Yeah walter, it is cliff n. I'm talking about. He's the staff member I identified most strongly with as a newcomer. Maybe because he was from the whole acid-hippy scene before going on to shoot drugs. Cliff led a lot of raps while I was there. Really liked the guy. So he never mentioned to you about what happened either? Cookie & I were on front row together. She came in slightly before me.
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This forum is mind-blowing! Had no idea it existed. Heck, I thought former seedlings kept the fact to themselves.
I was dragged into the program at Ft. Pierce but graduated from Ft. Lauderdale. Reading everyone's posts has shown me that I am still carrying some unwanted baggage from that period in my life. (And, yes, JU, it is all about me right now! :smile:)
Anyone else out there from Ft. Pierce? Anyone know what happened to the staffer, Scott? He was the guy with the salt-and-pepper bowl cut. Thanks!
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Marshall, yeah I really liked Cliff too - and his brother Fred - did you know him?
I have always liked that hippy vibe and I have reverted post-Seed to my true nature...
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Welcome Anon from Ft Pierce!
Scott is in Ft Lauderdale running a mortgage company and stayed involved, or so I hear.
Do us a favor...pick a user name and tell us a story you remember about when you were there.
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Thanks for the info on Scott. I remember him because he seemed the kindest and most genuine of the staff to me.
I choose not to register at this time under my name or a user name. I may, at some time, change my mind and do so.
I guess my first vivid memory is running away from my old comer's house on day 14. I waited till she was in the bathroom and bolted for the road. I had been checking out the neighborhood from day 1, planning my escape.
I hid on the porch of a house that looked as though it belonged to 'someone cool'. I then went to a church and told the pastor that I was, GASP, in the seed, against my will. He really disliked the whole concept of the program and the secrecy so he bought me a bus ticket home.
24 hours later I was back on the front row. 28 hours later I was 'stood up' and reamed in chick's rap.
Most of my memories and feelings associated with that time period are sad, isolating and negative.
I never felt like I fit in or really believed a lot of the stuff we were 'suppose' to think. In retrospect, I think we could have been called 'the Stepford Seedlings'.
FWIW, I am drug-free and rarely drink but I think it has more to do with the fact that I went right back to surfing and then got into running and triathlons. I think it was the stuff I learned from those lifestyles that gave me discipline, integrity, a sense of self-worth, good friends and a lot of happiness.
Reading this forum has stirred up a lot of feelings that I didn't realize were buried. I am going to have to take some time to process.
Thanks to those who started this site. All the best....
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No, didn't know fred. Hippy vibe...cliff was always talking about being in yoga ashrams, communes and that scene. Seems like he was at Haight Ashbury too. Seemed really intelligent. I remember someone reporting me for reading philosophy books (alan watts) & cliff called me outside & asked me about it. I expected a strong comedown but he just said it would be better to wait until after I got off my program before reading too much material like that, but said that also applied even to people reading the bible. I ignored his advice but graduated a couple of months later anyway. That was one healthy aspect of the program while I was there. It was understood that the seed was temporary and you were expected to lead your own life and make your own decisions after you left. I understand that had changed by the time you arrived. I agree with John U's analysis of Art being like a parent unwilling to let their child grow up and leave home. Funny, john has no trouble seeing some of the problems with the program after he left (or the copycat programs) but can't seem to fully grasp the ones that existed while he was (at least partially) in charge. Human nature.
Wouldn't it be cool now if Lybbi started posting too? I can easily imagine she & john flaming each other back and forth. :flame: :lol: Then maybe Art could sign in and tell them both they need to be back on the front row!
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Stripe,
Can you expand on your term "emotional cripples"?
I am trying to think this through myself.
Is it like a form of institutionalization? The individual cannot or does not want to function outside the structure of the institution?
One aspect of alcoholic or drug addiction is the a set of behaviors and beliefs evolve in addiction that lead to a belief the person needs outside judgement to save them from themselve. IMO this is true to the extent of helping one break the cycle of addiction. So then the question becomes how does one regain healthy autonomy after breaking the cycle?
I will take a stab at it. I should say I love AA. But, there are lot of confused people there, like everywhere, trying to find there way and mixing truth with falsehood. When someone is coming out of addiction, they get hit with s**t like, saying "I am sober, you are not", or "you are in jail, I am not". "How far did your thinking get you..." Well the truth is, the person saying I am sober and you are not to put you in a one down position could be a total idiot, lunatic loser. When you first show up it is hard to tell who has something good going and who does not.
So I view it as part luck in finding the right people up front to set the stage for healthy development. And by healthy development I mean regaining self confidence and independent thought, rejoining society as a regular person ect.
I never got a chance to see how the Seed handled that because I spent the summers of 72 and 74 (when I was 15 and 17 years old) in the Seed (state road 84), never graduated (I just never got "it", whatever "it" was ever after ~4 months of 10x10x7) and never got a chance to see how they handled moving peaple back into the mainstream.
Can anyone tell me what the process was of become a oldcomer and graduating since I missed that "module" of the program?
I always felt like I missed something, important but was never clear what that was. Both times I was ejected all existing Seed members stopped communicating with me and looked and me like I had a death sentence imposed on my.
Questions:
1. What is meant by term "emotional cripple" as a result of being in the Seed.
2. How was the process of reintegration into the world outside handled by the Seed (or was it)?
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::bump::
Is anybody gonna jump in here? I might give my take on the questions later. They're very good questions. But I want to find out what ya'll think. Allow the President to invade a neighboring nation whenever he shall deem it necessary to repel an invasion, and you allow him to do so whenever he may choose to say he deems it necessary for such purpose, and you allow him to make war at pleasure. Study to see if you can fix any limit to his power in this respect, after having given him so much as you propose. If today he should choose to say he thinks it necessary to invade Canada to prevent the British from invading us, how could you stop him? You may say to him,--"I see no probability of the British invading us"; but he will say to you, "Be silent: I see it, if you don't."
--Abraham Lincoln
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On 2005-08-18 20:48:00, SummerOf72 wrote:
"Stripe,
Can you expand on your term "emotional cripples"?
Questions:
1. What is meant by term "emotional cripple" as a result of being in the Seed.
2. How was the process of reintegration into the world outside handled by the Seed (or was it)?"
Stripe here, replying to you.
What I meant by emotional cripple ? Teachings I took away from the seed showed me that when it was time for something to end - a friendship, a job, school, whatever, when I made a determination that something was over (or the peer group determined it for me) it was over. Period. (Greg, I guess my participation here today proves what I am about to follow with).
When I was running the seed steps (cutting ties with old druggies friends) it was expected that the ties would be cut in no uncertain terms. If there was an emotional vacillation on my part about having to speak the words "I don't want to talk to you" I never could have or would have acknowledged that. Why ? Beacuse of fear - fear of being ratted out and started over, sent back, yelled at, stood up. You get the drift.
What that taught me, and this is perhaps the biggest failure on my part, is to ignore and bury that emotion, that vacillation. In hindsight I guess I was a chicken, too. Emotion was only acceptable at the seed if it fit into specifc perameters. You have read for yourself on this thread, what the result was for kids who expressed, rightly or wrongly, all emotion that passed through them.
Even after I quit going to the seed on a regular basis, I still hug out with seed kids, so we still had our own mini-seed going complete with confrontations, soul-bearing and come downs. To avoid the very neagitve reinforcements of my peer group (large and small), I simply buried all emotion that was not acceptable. Pretty much all we were allowed to feel at theseed was "happiness..." For a couple of years afterwards, all my folks had to say to me was a sentence with the word "attitude" in it and it was like some kind of buzz/control word. I simply choked it down, accepted it and lock-stepped as expected. On to college, on to a career, on to life. But all the while, I was still choking it down, controlling it all, towing the line and checking my attitude and ultimately, ending all kinds of realtionships as a result of using the "tool" and because of the "tools."
Never once were we allowed to grieve the losses the program imposed. And unfortunately, that's a lesson that was burned into my heart.
Maybe some people had program friends they felt safe enough to confide in, and God bless them if they did. They are probably better adjusted people than I am. I just wasn't so lucky.
I lived that way for years, at least until I had some pretty bad stuff happen to me and my son and my husband. Then, somehow, I realized the old, indelibly etched patterns really did not work any more. At least not for me, not in my life.
Now, I have come to realize that the pendulum has swung to the other side and I need some time and moderation, both in what I say and in what I hear.
As for the second question, I think the plain answer is there was no psychological plan, but there was a support system. Although in hindsight and from my viewpoint now, it looks more like continued brainwashing.
You said you never finished, but do you remember enough of the program to remember the "process"?
Minimum 2 weeks away from home, or longer.
Get to go home, but must still come in 10 to 10, 7 days per week.
Get to go to school or work, but remainder of time not in school or work must be spent on a daily ? to 10,including weekends.
Oldcomer status, what was it a 2 or 3 7-10pm raps per week and one full weekend day.
Finally, graduation. Don't recall if there was any mandatory attendance at that point.
So maybe there was some PROCESS, but I don't think there was any intergration of old life/new life.
I'm not sure theseed actually knew "what" (emphasis added) they were turning out. They apparently figured that what they taught, if the program was worked properly, would stick and there would not be any long term, negative effects, provided of course, you worked the program (and kept up with your own brainwashing).
Perhaps what I see in myself is not necessaruly long term bad effects, but delayed effects. Why? Because if I never acknowledged that the program or the parts of it that did not work for me, then I would NEVER have to deal with the effects. Therefore, everything could remain status quo, unchallegened and I'd be the eternally happy seed person. Alas, that did not happen for me.
So now my pendulum has swung to the other side and instead of working hard to maintain the old status quo, I work diligently to overturn it and its effects in my life and in the lives of others. Up till now, that been a case of whether they want it or not adn I've realized I'm still obnoxious, I'm just on the other side of the view.
My ass is probably going to get kicked about for this reply, but all I can say is that I've come to realize that acknowledging my own shortcommings (some noted above) and moderation - not such a bad thing. I ask for nothing. Others can come to their own conclusions and will continue to live as they lived before my input here. They won't die for not "hearing me" any more than I will die if I "don't speak" and just "shut my mouth". I plan to look for a lot more gray in the future and a lot less black and white.
[ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-08-20 17:09 ][ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-08-20 17:11 ][ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-08-20 17:15 ]
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Thanks that very helpful, good response.
Let me take some time and think about it. In particular what I got from the Seed that did not work...also what did work. Those were crazy times and that was a crazy place.
The process of terminating relationships that I deem negative is definitely there and I am currently looking at that as a problem for me. It became a easy solution...but it overlooked the idea of negotating and tolerance in relationships. Also it presents the idea of the world is as black and white, good or bad which is not realistic. It doesnt present, everyone has has thier own thing going (including me) and it is a regalar part of life to learn to deal with it. All peaple including myself have good and bad traits. Also the way I handle my side of the relationship (which I am responsible for) can encourage or discourage others good and bad traits. And that is simple human relations.
Also drug users were demonized, made to look evil. And all the stories we heard in the Seed amplifeid that message. That view certainly had a benefit of breaking the cycle of peaple, places and things. But to convince someone thier peers and prior friends were evil was damaging and has a lasting negative impact. The impact is I have a unrealistically negative stereotype emotionally charged and created in my mind while I was in the Seed and if someone hit a few of those data points they still get put into that category. I do believe drug users would probably have pulled me down since in many cases misery loves company and that people unconciously adopt group standard. I dont know, maybe a more balanced view would have been separating the individual from the addiction understanding the whole addictive mindset better vs. demonizing druggies.
The idea of having friends with the idea of keeping each other on the straight and narrow is a concept in AA as well as Seed followup and is easy to fall into. It can degrade into, "I only hang out with program peaples....they are the only ones that are real ect...". In reality IMO, having a few trusted peaple for reality testing and healthy behavior sounding boards is positive. But the idea that the whole world should conform to some recovery group model everyone helping each other work through their issues is a huge distortion of reality that creates a mess.
This is all very good "grist for the mill...".
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Here is what I felt I missed by not graduating from the Seed. In reading this thread, I have the opinion if I had completed the program, I would have had a stamp of approval/completion from the Seed but not what I intuitively recognised I did not have and I think I got in AA. Before I get flamed, I am only saying this applies to me, not everyone.
I got alot from the Seed but what I got was not complete. The Seed did not really provide a understanding the process of addiction and recovery long term. I stead I was told the Seed was the only solution. "Get it at the Seed, our way or return to addiction hell". Addiction is so cunning and relapse can be working in the background if the proper maintence work is not done.
This last time in AA I spent alot of time reading AA an other literature, talking to those who I felt really intellectaully understood the of the disease and the solution. Then the issue only becomes doing the upfront work then keeping maintence in place to overt a relapse. Also there is a community in AA that makes basically no requirments on members and you cant get thrown out.
When I came out of the Seed I was able to break the cycle of addiction, and I had alot of tools but no real depth of understanding. This could be because I never completed the program. But still, in AA I feel I have that, but it would not be complete without the literature and there was not literature in the Seed nor was any reference made to the AA literature that the Seed program was bootleged from.
I knew I was missing something when I left the Seed. The Seed said they were the only ones that had it. No one explained even remotely why that was said. This was truth and falsehood mixed, untreated addiction often does return. Spending more time in treatment at the Seed would help. But not becuase the Seed was magic or the only source of help with addition. I wish they had referred me to AA since IMO they were bootleg AA. This "we are the only way mentality" was cultish and a distortion.
All said and done, I am still grateful for the Seed but I some negative stuff did stick with me as a result of my being there. This forum is helping me root that out.
This Form is awesome.
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John,
How are you doing? Believe it or not this is Maggie and I don't know how I found this today. But I did a search this morning and found this strange site. But I saw your name and thought wow, I wonder how he is. We are doing great. I have a wonderful family and have moved on. Is there really any point of reliving those days unless it is to help others. I am leaving this anonymously just because this was a bit strange. But there were alot of people I became very close to and I often wonder how they are. I have kept in touch with a few and those will remain nameless. I did not appreciate my name (first and last) being put on this as I am sure you didn't like it either. But what are you going to do? Anyway I wish you and all the others the best. God Bless You, Maggie
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On 2005-08-20 23:54:00, SummerOf72 wrote:
"Here is what I felt I missed by not graduating from the Seed. In reading this thread, I have the opinion if I had completed the program, I would have had a stamp of approval/completion from the Seed but not what I intuitively recognised I did not have and I think I got in AA. Before I get flamed, I am only saying this applies to me, not everyone.
Well, I'm of the opinion that AA can be and often is quite the high demand, destructive cult. But it's not always like that. I draw the line at voluntary participation; truely voluntary, not under any coercion of any kind. Isn't it strange that, in this country, America, true autonomy, liberty and personal responsibility has become such a foreign concept?
I do think this has quite a bit to do w/ the Program. But it's not as I initially thought when I first discovered so many program people occupying the halls of power. It's the other way around. They got where they are by essentially the same path that my grandfather, the "professional alcoholic", rode on the coat tails of his fellow steppers to get out of the fix he was in after the stock market crash and retire comfortably to Hillsborough Cove. It's not that Program people have taken over anything. It's that Program and a pledge to always fight and never question the drug war seems to be a prerequisite to political success.
But your other point, that seal of approval, I think you're quite correct about that. I think the Program "works" for those who honestly wanted intervention in much the same way as that chit hangin outa your pocket (anybody but Thom remember that?) You know, the AA chip that you might have on a keychain or in a pocket just to remind you and reenforce the notion that you are now a non-drinker. It would work just the same and just as effectively if you happened to believe in the power of some shaman to exorcise the "demon" of addiction. Whatever ritual and cerimony he may do, whatever talisman he may give you, so long as you believe it works, then it works.
From my pov, I didn't want the intervention. Didn't need it. But completing the program and acquiring that stamp of approval was the only way to get my mother off my friggen back! And I was perfectly willing to do that, even to go on staff till I could find a way to escape to school or something.
It was a terrible catch 22. I couldn't let on that I wanted to get away because that would be seen as an indication that I needed more "treatment". But things went weird toward the end of `82. Weird even for that place. I just couldn't concinece going along with it any more. After 2 years of dedicated effort toward acquiring that much needed stamp of approval, I had to cut my losses and walk away. Fuck college, fuck being welcome in my mother's home. It was just not worth it to me. Your milage may vary.
Religion is all bunk.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor
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On 2005-08-21 11:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"John,
How are you doing? Believe it or not this is Maggie and I don't know how I found this today. But I did a search this morning and found this strange site. But I saw your name and thought wow, I wonder how he is. We are doing great. I have a wonderful family and have moved on. Is there really any point of reliving those days unless it is to help others. I am leaving this anonymously just because this was a bit strange. But there were alot of people I became very close to and I often wonder how they are. I have kept in touch with a few and those will remain nameless. I did not appreciate my name (first and last) being put on this as I am sure you didn't like it either. But what are you going to do? Anyway I wish you and all the others the best. God Bless You, Maggie"
If you can direct me to the threads where your name is, I will be glad to remove it for you. No problem. You can post the names of the threads here or send me a private message. Either way I will be happy to oblige you with that request.
Maggie, welcome. appreciate your posting here. I wish you the best as well.
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BTW, Maggie, I know you were on staff, but why were you placed in the seed again?
Surely you weren't heading for death, insanity or jail...I remember you as a sweet kind child/person that only had what, smoked a little somthing once or twice?
Am I wrong here?
Welcome once again.
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Actually, I asked to be put in because I couldn't seem to get straight on my own. I was and still am very much into making the best life possible for myself and my family. When I was younger I had alot of problems with my family and no guidance. So I got straight and yes I worked there, but I never witnessed anyone getting hurt physically, maybe they got chewed out, but sometimes they needed it. I am sure that some people needed more help that we were qualified to give, because I sure wasn't qualified to do what I was doing. Anyway, I am doing great and not angry. I miss some people and hope they are doing well.
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Maggie, the last time I saw you I was walking in the mall in Ft Lauderdale, and the time before that was bowling in St Pete. I had blonde hair and my sister was F.
Do you know who I am? Great hearing from you!
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No idea. But if I saw your face I am sure I would remember. I haven't lived in FL for over 20 years and have a very bad memory. Sorry.
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Wow. Unreal As I remember you clear as day. We and we hung around a bit outside the seed, went and got ice cream a couple times, went bowling.This occured over a short period of time I am one year younger than you. When I saw you in the mall in lauderdale, I was living with my mom and was a seed grad but was on the "don't talk to him" list. I was real glad to see you but all you would say was "are you straight" and really didn't much talk to me.
You said you had a hard time getting straight outside the seed. I seem to remember you only having smoked a couple times..is this not accurate?
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Also, what occured that caused you to leave the seed? Did you stay on good terms with Art and Libby after that?
Thanks again.
Greg (blond, Thin (used to be :grin:)) from Lakewood and from the seed st pete 73.
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Hey Maggie,
I remember you. I lived at Cranbrook the same time you did. I'm glad life has been good to you.
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Actually a platinum blonde if I remember correctly.
I was once blond now grey and some blond and alot of skin tone showing through too. :grin:
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Also, Maggie...what makes this website so "strange".
Imagine, a place where everyone can talk about the seed and tell exactly what they thought, felt and saw..without any repercution.
I think this website is "groovy" babe!
hehe...I thought that appropriate since we are a bunch of 70s old farts.
Except me of course!
:grin:
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Ginger,
Were you in the Seed state road 84 Ft Lauderdale the summer of 72 or 74 and were you on staff then?
If yes, I will start trying to recall female staff members.
"Well, I'm of the opinion that AA can be and often is quite the high demand, destructive cult."
Why a destructive cult? Thanks!
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No, different Ginger entirely. I was 6 in `71 when my older brothers went in.
I think AA can be a destructive cult because I've just run into enough devout AAers who are entirely too wrapped up in it. Then there are the court rulings which consistently define AA as a religion for the purposes of the First Amendment. And the rather clanish attack response that almost always meets any questioning or criticizm of AA.
Wait for it.....
At present there is not a single credible established religion in the world.
--George Bernard Shaw, Irish-born English playwright
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I ran this by a female friend who's daughter went through a drug problem and ran some of the contents of the website by her to get her response.
In particular in regards to what I viewed as distorions or shortfalls of what the Seed provided.
Her repsonse was, dealing with a adolecent on drugs was the biggest nightmare of her life, that it made her crazy. Part the the insanity was a desparation that led her to feel any means were justified to deal with the problem. That she was desparate for results, and her only criteria became does it have a chance of working.
The message was, go easy and wieght that into the postmortem analysis......
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There are plenty of crazy unbalanced AAers. No doublt about that.
I like the principles as per the literature, while the personalities are very diverse with many unbalanced and plenty of dual diagnosis in the group. Being an adult not under coersion also definitely makes things easier.
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Yeah, been there. I was never so worried about my daughter's drug use as I was about her addiction to a psychotic abusive slightly older boy. But I have to say that episode of my life was probably the most trying, easily one of the most diffuclut and painful and certainly the most educational so far. God is a comedian, smart assed mother fucker! LOL
I really, truely understand why some parents are such easy marks for these hucksters. And I understand very well that the hucksters in question are nearly always their own biggest suckers. If I hadn't been through it from the teenaged girl's pov, I don't know what I might have done differently. I just thank God that I did know better.
" That she was desparate for results, and her only criteria became does it have a chance of working. "
What I realized is that our best hope, the most reliable, time tested means of dealing w/ a wreckless kid is to just never let anyone or any thing in this world turn you against them. Whether you strong arm them into a program or you let them graze for their own organic trauma in the wild, that really is the "secret ingredient" to this new wave of patent medicine. Either they sink or swim, but either way, you and the kid are better off if you're still friends when and if the kid does ever decide that maybe you're not wrong about everything.
A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another; shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement
Thomas Jefferson
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Cool... :grin:
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But there were alot of people I became very close to and I often wonder how they are. I have kept in touch with a few and those will remain nameless. Anyway I wish you and all the others the best. God Bless You, Maggie"
Maggie...You are still a "dude magnet"! Seriously, I am so happy to hear all is well w/ you and yours. I know it's hard to tell from most of these posts, but there are those of us who "took the best and left the rest" from the Seed. Anyway, I have an awesome group photo (thanks to a dear friend)which was taken at the "P" estate in Tarpon Springs. I know you know who I'm talking about and I would love to share this w/ you. E/M me and we'll be in touch, OK? Good to hear from you!!
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Where do I get your e-mail address? By the way, I remember the P place in Tarpon Springs. I would drive my old car up there and spend the day playing tennis or swimming. It was fun.
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I think I am starting to remember you because I looked you up in the LHS yearbook when I was a Junior. Sorry I didn't remember, but I put alot out of my mind back then. You probably saw me at the mall after one of my best friends had died. I was around from 1974 to 1979 when I moved back to St. Pete. I do remember you being a nice guy but most everything else I blocked out. As everyone else here, I also stressed out about leaving but wanted to for a very long time. Once I did I felt free to discover what I was going to be without all the pressures from others. I went from peer pressure to another type of pressure -- which probably saved my life. There were good things and bad things and alot of life lessons for me. There are alot of successful people that went through this and I am sure alot of troubled people. I consider myself very blessed and I love my life. I am now 47 years old, have a great husband and two teenage girls who are involved in church, school programs, and are great kids. They have learned from me to stay away from drugs and they do.
I hope you are doing well and continue to do good work with this site.
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I received a phone call from a mutual friend telling me you'd stumbled in here. The last time we talked was when? When I called from Bob's, 8, 9 years ago, isn't it?
Anyway, I know we never got a chance to talk about Ron. I don't even know how much you know about what happened at the end. Sad, inevitable, but probably, ...no definitely, a blessing when all's said.
There is a facility through which to send private messages here. You can sign up anonymously and get in touch that way. Please do.
I apologize for not keeping in touch, but..., but bullshit, no excuses!
Love you,
John
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I don't know where the time goes until I look at my girls; ones a senior and the other a freshman. I did not hear anything about Ron, did he die? Send me an e-mail and let me know what's going on with you and others. It would be nice to catch up.
Take care, Mag
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Maggie, I saw you in the mall in Ft Lauderdale. I have two kids also but not such a wonderfull wife. :grin: My daughter is 15 and my best friend..we are so close. My son is super intelligent (I think maybe a gene mutatation) and in his last year of college at FSU.
Actually I am happily divorced for eight years, and am seriously involved with a wonderfull woman. Right now I am writing this from Hong kong..I am doing a 6 week tour of Asia. and it is 2:00 in the morning.
Life is great for me, and I am glad it is for you as well. Just to be sure, I went to lakewood.
John, thanks for posting again. I know it isn't easy whatwith the barrage of posts you got, but hell, its the internet! people can and do say whatever they want..that is nothing unique about this website. Internet forum posting in general requires thick skin, and one this personal and unique requires even more so.
Please think about participating in the moderated question and answer thread. You can give back here in a way only you can, and any personal attacks will be deleted. That is a special thread that is moderated for content. Only questions, and only answers will be allowed to stand. Thanks in advance.
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... &forum=8&2 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=11264&forum=8&2)
Maggie, Btw, we went bowling at the pinellas point alley behind the youth center once. I think maybe my sister was there also.
Finally, Robin...thanks for posting again!
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Greg,
Why do you travel around so much? What kind of work do you do? Sounds like you have two great kids, sorry about the divorce, but glad you are happy now. Is your sister's name start with Fr... and your last name starts with B? I hope this is going directly to you. Where do you live in Florida?
I have been living in Atlanta since 1980 and got married to a great guy in 1984 and he is from Tampa, but I met him in ATL.
I miss my friends from the days because they probably knew me the best. Except for my husband and friends now. But there is something about having friends that you have known since high school. I only keep in touch with two people and I don't even see them much. One of my oldest friends goes to GA Tech and I talk to her periodically. She is getting another degree and then the other is a guy from St. Pete that I love like a brother and we speak once a year on his birthday.
Well take care and travel carefully. My husband and I are big tennis fans and will be in NYC next week for the US Open and I am really looking forward to that.
Maggie [ This Message was edited by: Magpie on 2005-08-22 13:15 ]
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Its Chris Lewis, glad to see you found your way here, sorry I lost touch. I changed jobs about three years back & we stopped e-mailing. I lost my Mom last year so I don't get back to St Pete as often. The other seed kid at St Pete Catholic has been in / out of the site, but I still have not located Dave B********l. Drop me a private note if you would like, I have to apologize about using your last name in one of my earliest posts, I asked the Mod's to go back & edit (it's done).
Glad things are going well, you take care,
Chris
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Hey Maggie, this is the other kid from St. Pete Catholic. Glad to see you found your way here. Sounds like you've had a good life.
Hey Chris how you been? All is well here.
N
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Thats me Maggie!
I own my own business and I have a manager that looks after it for me. I travel because I like it!
The divorce was a good thing. Had 8 years of being single during my late 30s and mid 40s, which is THE BEST TIME to be single, bar none.
my sister is doing good, pm me and I will give you more information.
Take care.
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Maggie, again, if you find your last name in this forum, direct me to the thread and I will delete it. First names I won't do anything about.
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Fuelaw
where can i find this article about you and seed kids being beaten, when was it published, who was the reporter, what was the name of article and in what publication?